WEBVTT
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome to another episode of DICE Exploder.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Each week we take a tabletop mechanic and try and crack the combo on its padlock.
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[SPEAKER_02]: My name is Sam Dunnawalt and my co-host today is Whitney Deloglio.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And here she is introducing herself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, I'm Whitney of Toast DC Horse Studios, my pronouns are she, her and bro.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I've designed games, hype games, written for games, and drawn for games.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Whitney's the designer behind Prism, a diceless classic from the Ken's about Mermaid's and their relationships, as well as the old The Cold The Bold, a game about a criminal gig economy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Whitney's got a second edition of The Old The Cold The Bold, coming to back her kit in a couple of weeks, May 4th,
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I thought I'd have her on to talk about a different game that the old called The Bold is based on.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Lady Blackbird, John Harper's 2009 game about the eponymous Lady Blackbird, a runaway noble, trying to reunite with her infamous pirate boyfriend and the plucky crew of smugglers who've agreed to help her.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think I've made no secret that I'm a huge sucker for prewritten characters.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think there should be way more of them in RPGs, and Lady Blackbird is the perfect example of why.
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[SPEAKER_02]: One of the mechanics it uses to really make its characters sing is keys.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Basically, statements about your character that you're rewarded for leaning into, or fucking entirely leaving behind forever and completely reinventing yourself.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Keys are a key part of the cold-de-old bolts too, so today we're giving everything about them and how you, or Whitney, might hack them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks to everyone's sports dice exploreder on Patreon and here is Whitney with Keys from Lady Blackbird.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Whitney, welcome to dice newsletter.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, thank you for having me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thanks for being here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So what are we talking about today?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Today we're talking about Lady Blackbird and my game inspired by Lady Blackbird, the old The Cold The Bold.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so let's start with Lady Blackbird.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What is the deal with this fucking game?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like what?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What's your history with Lady Blackbird?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You made a whole game based on her inspired by it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You must have background with it, telling about that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, when I was first dipping my toes into the pool, that is the indie game in community in Google Plus, RIP still existed a friend recommended it to me, because I was looking for easy games to get into, and I was like, oh, it's Charlie Blackbird, and it's a five player game, but you can actually run it with less players, I think.
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[SPEAKER_01]: where it's a story with the beginning and sort of an end and you figure out what happens in the middle, where you're basically a noble woman trying to get back to her pirate boyfriend and your body guards there and the pilot captain and mechanic of the ship that's getting you there is also in the game.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then whether you go back to your prior boyfriend is up to you on the table.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I just like the idea that it's like a compartmentalized experience because it's like every character has its own character sheet.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And you're given like just enough to bite into to make up stuff as you go along.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, you really have these like really strongly defined pre-generated characters of like Lady Blackbird and her bodyguard and the Captain of the ship, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And you also have like a really strongly framed goal, like you're saying, go find your Pirate Boyfriend and see how he feels about you now.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But it also, I think most crucially, to me, like I could do a whole episode on this, it has like a really, really strong starting situation that it puts you in, like your ship that you are being smuggled on, essentially, has been picked up by the like, evil space empire, essentially.
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[SPEAKER_02]: you are trying to get back to your ship and escape.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And after that, you know, maybe you're going to go find your Pirate Boyfriend, maybe you're going to have to go hide and ask to write field, like whatever the thing is, maybe you're going to go have adventures with the sky-squared, like there are all kinds of like potential things that the game sort of gestures towards, but you always start in prison, it will like have a good pick up for a traffic violation basically, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And like with with that tension, hanging over you of like, are they going to discover that you are secretly a noble and what will happen if they do?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think all of that stuff is really clever and really good for doing what you were saying of like getting into a one shot contained kind of experience and really like kicking off with a bang and like giving you some direction for play.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is a John Harper game, it came out in 2010.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We specifically are going to talk about the mechanic of keys in this game.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So why don't you walk us through what's the deal with a key on a character sheet?
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[SPEAKER_01]: A key on a carriage, she is kind of like a signal to the player and to the experience point, market that whenever you act upon your character's archetype, you turn that key and that gives you experience points.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it kind of like informs the player how this character behaves in solves problems.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So you have Cyrus, who is the captain of the owl.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He used to work for the Empire, but now he doesn't.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So you have key of the outcasts, which is like you will or excite from the empire, turn this key when you're outcast status causing trouble, which in case at the beginning of the episode as we stated, you're arrested.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's only a matter of time to like, they connect the dots and find out that like, you know, you're an ex soldier.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the interesting thing about a key is that you can, you know, turn it normally, but you can also have that key get you in trouble.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like at the beginning of the game, that that key can already get Cyrus in trouble when they're all arrested.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it works kind of like, like, fate aspects that way, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Of like, all these are supposed to be kind of double-edged swords, even if one of those edges is like sharper on any individual key, like key of the outcast here, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's really easy to imagine, okay, I'm going to use this to my benefit, to fit in with other exiles from the empire, other people don't like the empire.
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[SPEAKER_02]: or I'm going to use it to my detriment, share when they find out who I am and like, oh my, my like old deputy is here and hates my gut sort of like whatever the thing is, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I know you mentioned it in that line is that keys also have a buy-off, just basically you turning your key to the extreme or I are doing the opposite.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then in this case, the key of the outcast is regaining your former standing or joining a new group.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it'd be helpful to maybe do another example to sort of show what these buyoffs kind of look like.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So Lady Blackbird herself has key of the imposter, which says, you are in disguise passing yourself off as a commoner.
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[SPEAKER_02]: hit your key when you perform well enough to fool someone with your disguise.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, great.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like you're going to be doing the like prints and poppers clothing like thing for a bunch of time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then the buy-off is reveal your true identity to someone you fooled.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And the buy-offs all feel kind of like that a big moment to the like climax of having played into this thing for a while, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Where
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, if you're going to do the thing where like, oh, I spend an hour like being in disguise and being like, oh, I'm just a lowly commoner and then like you throw off your cloak and we get the big like anime moments or whatever, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm like, this is who I really am like, and when you hit your key, you get XP, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And when that you hit your key and it gets you in trouble, you get to XP.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And when you hit your buyoff, you essentially get 5 XP, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You get this like big bonus whenever you do it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I mean, like, I think that these things are, this really improbable package of like role playing prompt.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, tell me what you think about key is like, what made you, what drew you to key is what excites you about keys?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think like when you're at like at a convention or at their table with your friends and name me it's like this is like a new game for you or it's a first time for people role playing or with like typical character generation a lot of times it's up to the player like ways your character like how is your character behave how is your character problem solve usually the character generation doesn't answer those questions so it's up to the player
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like, with this game in particular, it does love that work for you with the keys, because every key is evocative, so you know what the character's backstory is, how they interact with the world around them and how they solve problems.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like Kale, for example, his keys, he's the mechanic, but he also like shiny things.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So he's constantly
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love keys because I've been arguing for years at this point, sometimes on the show and often off the show that like, I love pre-gents and more games should have pre-gents, and like keys are why.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like the thing that you just described of like okay, so you show up at the table and we like get our stats and like now what like what do I do with this character like he's solved that problem There's a whole list of them so you get three of them per character and it's really easy when you don't know what to do You know in the same way like in apocalypse world or like a PBTA game You can look down at your character.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She can be like what should I do right now?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Here's a move.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna do that move
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[SPEAKER_02]: Does it make sense?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Let's find out, you know, like this is like the fiction forward like version of that with keys, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I don't know what to do, but I'm playing kale and this says you like shiny things.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So like, alright, what can I steal while I'm locked in this jail cell?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, even if it doesn't make sense, it gives you some direction.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then often it does make sense, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, maybe, oh, I like shiny things that means that did I like pocket this key earlier, you know?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then you can make strong choices with them too, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, key of greed is going to play really differently if you are saying, like, Ooh, I am constantly stealing from the other players at the table.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, they are coins, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Versus, oh, I know a lot about light.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Diamonds or whatever and that means when we encounter a diamond like I'm really I'm going to distract us Well, I go pick it up and I know a lot about it I can evaluate it because I really I like shiny things so much, you know, but also a big problem a lot of people have with pre-generated characters is feeling like they are locked in I feel like
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[SPEAKER_02]: And the keys give you clear targets to shoot for, well, I think not locking you in, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's still up to you whether you're going to hit the key, like which of them you're going to prioritize or exactly how you're going to use any individual want of them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So they just like give you clear targets while leaving you a lot of flexibility.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I love that about them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if you don't like one, you can just hit the buyoff right away, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I don't forget to do this part, but you replace it with a new key.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You're supposed to do that by a number of remember to do that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but so they're also in an advancement track thing, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like because they, which feels right because they're like moments of character growth when you buy off a key or a character change at any rate.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Not necessarily always growth.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's a list of like generic keys that anyone can take in the back of the want to say book, but it's only a 16 page PDF.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But like back there on one of the pages is a bunch of extra keys you can take.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And the keys are also like simple enough in the formatting is clear enough that it's like very easy to be able to write your own to, I think.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like these are such they're one sentence long, you know, plus a buy off.
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[SPEAKER_02]: How have keys played at the table for you when you are actually like playing Lady Blackbird?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the first time I played Lady Blackbird, I was Lady Blackbird.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I like basically bought off a key of the imposter, like almost immediately while we were still in prison because I'm like, I'm gonna reveal that I'm a stormblood right now because I thought it made sense for how I envision Lady Blackbird, I'd want to show off as soon as possible.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And also because I really wanted secret to the sky squid and like if I buy off something now, I'll have sky squid now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: guys going now so win win.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's really interesting contrast to I've played just a one shot of this game and the lady blackbird in our game spent the whole session like three hours leading into like ooh, I'm secretly like a like a not buying off that key right and like really playing the character in a different way.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's interesting.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Go on though.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: No.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the person who played kale at the table interpreted the brotherhood they had between him and Cyrus as romantic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But it was unfortunately under quite a love work.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kale wasn't love a Cyrus, but Cyrus and love wasn't love with Lady Blackbird.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, and the interesting thing about this game is every time I've either been in the game or ran it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The relationship between Natasha and her bodyguard Naomi is never the same because like when I played it for the first time But I was kind of like the person who's privileged and is trying to help a kind of failing at because they don't know how to
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[SPEAKER_01]: But what we ended up being like, you know, best buds in the end, but I ran or been such as we're like, no, me hates Natasha and this is, it's begrudgingly protecting her or this more like a contractual thing where it's like, okay, I'm serving you until you get to your boyfriend and then we're done.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm free.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm never, I never have to see you again.
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[SPEAKER_02]: that really speaks to like how much flexibility there is with these keys.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like with pre-generated characters in general, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I also love like how with keys they really play to different lengths of campaign.
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[SPEAKER_02]: in a really interesting way.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like in a one shot, I think everyone kind of feels like actually like, you know, make some noise.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, like get this stuff, get some shit going, you know?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then the buyoffs in particular give you a really clear way to do that, because all of them are just so obviously, oh, this will be a big moment that I can make happen.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if that's the thing that I want to do.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But it is also, it's really easy
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[SPEAKER_02]: to imagine playing a succession game of Lady Blackbird and like really taking your time with those buyoffs to and like still hitting the keys for a long time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like doing doing the thing with them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I love that like...
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[SPEAKER_02]: In both of those circumstances, there's still this sort of like endless potential energy to the buyoffs, like there's this constant tension that never goes away, even if you never take the buyoff of like, but is the buyoff going to happen this time or not?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's such a neat little thing to have in a tight little package here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Have you put any like campaigns of Lady Blackbird?
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[SPEAKER_01]: The first session I was in was a play by post, so it was kind of like a campaign.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like even when it's a corner quote one shot, we usually spread out the three sessions just so can breathe.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because usually it's only in one shot when it's like out of combat.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The other thing, and I know I mentioned this like way I'm a four, like it's a five player game, but I run it for a different number of people.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not always a full house, like I've run it for a kale and a snarkel who
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we just go off on adventure Mike bet.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Cyrus and Naomi that's their problem.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean the two of you He's starting to separate sell and like shenanigans are foot.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I feel like this would if only because like I said The the setting gives you just enough to bite into but doesn't like confining with two a box So this is exactly how the world works and you can't go outside of this box
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, you could easily be like, okay, the owl is escape the clutches of the Imperial Army.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We could go to this planet, we could go to the asteroids, we could spend three episodes with sky squids.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I would love that personally, but...
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love the skies with so much, or you could have like really extensive refresh teams, just kind of like flashbacks and character history and character questions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like this game can easily be a one-shot, but I feel like with depending on how much you want to explore, whether it be character interactions or the world around you, it could definitely be multiple sessions.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, totally.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you've made a game kind of inspired by Lady Blackbird that like mechanically feels very similar.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's called the old The Cold and the Bolds.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It is coming to backer kit very soon.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Tell me about that game.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like where did that game come from and why did you use Lady Blackbird as like a framework for it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, I went first game that I had an idea about knowing what waffle mold to put it in, because it was originally a game about evil house spouses, but that's a story for a different day.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then I really like crime dramas, but crime dramas have a lot of concept.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't exactly like, so how can I make a game about doing crimes that has all the stuff I don't like about crime dramas out of the equation?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I was listening to Terry Pratchett's audiobooks and the idea of an assassin's the guild and the thieves guild came up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, that sounds like perfect.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's regulated crime.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So obviously, it can't go too crazy or come through because it's regulated crime.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the title just came to me like, it was even like something I was like brainstorming.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was just like, it's gonna be called the old, the cold, the bold.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh, those are three archetypes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been wanting to do a hack of way the blackboard anyway.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it's seem like a good fit because it's like the three architectives would be just each thrown character sheet.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then it was just a matter of figuring out how to make it different from way the blackboard and add my own content to it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's interesting that like both of these games just have the name of the most important character like in the title, like I know yours is a trio right, but it doesn't also, I don't know there's something interesting about that like I also think like when by naming the characters after their archetypes, you know, it's not like they refer to each other, it's not like when I sit down to play the game and I'm playing the cold, I'm like, hey, bold, come over here and like help me with this, you know, like, but
18:18.070 --> 18:42.812
[SPEAKER_02]: that makes it interesting to me the midpoint on pre-generated character to not that you have kind of found in your game, where on the one hand they feel totally like pre-gence in the sense that they are really clear arc types and they have all these keys really like laid out, but they don't feel like pre-gence in that they
18:42.792 --> 18:50.885
[SPEAKER_02]: Jell have names, and it's like very clear that you can kind of take them and do whatever you want with them.
18:51.687 --> 19:02.284
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's so weird that just like naming them makes them feel like pre-gents and Lady Blackbird, whereas not naming them makes them feel like not pre-gents and you are.
19:02.364 --> 19:05.710
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like the old just feels like a PVTA playbook or something, right?
19:06.030 --> 19:07.112
[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas,
19:07.092 --> 19:14.732
[SPEAKER_02]: You're making exactly the same sort of choices about the character in Lady Blackbird or in the Old The Cold the Bold with the same kind of character.
19:14.912 --> 19:19.965
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like the characters are flexible in the same way both in Lady Blackbird and the Old The Cold the Bold.
19:20.185 --> 19:22.772
[SPEAKER_02]: You're literally just naming them in one and not the other.
19:23.444 --> 19:24.385
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it makes sense.
19:24.405 --> 19:28.409
[SPEAKER_01]: So because once there are names, they're not just any person, they're a person.
19:28.590 --> 19:28.870
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:29.150 --> 19:37.580
[SPEAKER_01]: Like with Lady Blackbird, like her being like the name of the game, like she is the reason why you're arrest, because she didn't want to get back to her private boyfriend.
19:37.980 --> 19:41.604
[SPEAKER_01]: None of you would be in the situation in the first place because as I said, that's always the beginning.
19:42.225 --> 19:47.410
[SPEAKER_01]: And while she has a name, you can make it in form choices like, okay, she has key of the stormblood.
19:47.751 --> 19:48.512
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean?
19:48.812 --> 19:50.093
[SPEAKER_01]: Has castor spells?
19:50.113 --> 19:50.734
[SPEAKER_01]: Did it?
19:50.714 --> 20:06.192
[SPEAKER_01]: But with the old, the cold, the bowl, it's like, okay, I'm an old, so I'm like, Mike from Breaking Bad Vericaw, Saul, or I'm Mr. White and Reservoir Dogs, but what else about me, adding to the character, which is including your screen name.
20:06.812 --> 20:07.193
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally.
20:07.533 --> 20:10.897
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so talk to me about writing keys for this game.
20:10.917 --> 20:17.785
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what, what, what did you find like fun or easy about writing keys for the old
20:18.170 --> 20:23.139
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, what was most challenging was making sure the diction made it.
20:23.239 --> 20:33.698
[SPEAKER_01]: So they were easy to turn because the thing is it's like, especially like an archetype or a character like, there's a million things you can think of a character will do it any given time.
20:33.678 --> 20:38.403
[SPEAKER_01]: but you want to think of something that they're constantly doing so you can like more than more often than not turn the keys.
20:38.503 --> 20:50.656
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was matter of explaining each key in a way where a player can be using it like most of the time because my thought was they have one key if they're just they're turning more often and one key not so much.
20:51.156 --> 20:57.463
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is why I also I had the team keys just like just a case since each player only has two keys instead of the usual three.
20:57.843 --> 20:59.265
[SPEAKER_02]: Well you mentioned team keys there.
20:59.405 --> 21:00.606
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll get back to that in a second.
21:00.666 --> 21:01.407
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go on.
21:02.180 --> 21:18.187
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's a fun part was just actually just like thinking of like what keys make that archetype shine so like the old is the easiest because there's an old and like every crime drama right so it's just basically okay, they're the fixer so they're fixing every time you're back hurts turn your key.
21:18.307 --> 21:19.108
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
21:20.675 --> 21:21.236
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel that.
21:21.336 --> 21:24.079
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish I could buy that one off, so I don't have it anymore.
21:24.499 --> 21:25.620
[SPEAKER_01]: How do I buy that off?
21:26.081 --> 21:32.127
[SPEAKER_02]: You buy that one off by like getting paralyzed or something, I don't know.
21:32.147 --> 21:33.208
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't need my back anymore.
21:34.590 --> 21:34.970
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
21:35.170 --> 21:46.362
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was easy enough to come up with keys for the old and the cold was interesting because the diplomatic person in a crime drama usually gets trumped by the
21:46.342 --> 21:47.183
[SPEAKER_01]: or the overhead.
21:47.563 --> 21:51.147
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was fine making keys that put power back at that record type.
21:51.947 --> 22:07.262
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, the bold was fine, but it also difficult because the bold is kind of like a spin off of the hot head slash loudmouth where I did it want them to be like that, but I also wanted to keep that energy sort of in the playbook.
22:07.282 --> 22:16.011
[SPEAKER_01]: So that one was probably the most challenging to come up with keys, but also the most fun because that archetype speaks to me on so
22:15.991 --> 22:24.620
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I appreciate the challenge so because it was fun, it was fun just trying to think of ways to describe describes something that makes the more open-ended keys.
22:25.321 --> 22:25.621
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
22:26.362 --> 22:27.584
[SPEAKER_02]: Here you need to talk about it.
22:27.844 --> 22:45.643
[SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting to me to think about how arch-type-all so many of these keys are and then playing the game is like figuring out your version of what that arch-type is going to be, right?
22:46.231 --> 22:58.405
[SPEAKER_02]: defining your character into a specific person as opposed to the archetype whether that archetype is Lady Blackbird, Noble on the Run, or whether that archetype is the old, right?
22:58.485 --> 23:01.253
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the old and the crime drama.
23:01.233 --> 23:14.051
[SPEAKER_02]: But that there's like I'm looking at like Cyrus Vance's key is like the captain of the ship in Lady Blackbird and he's got key of the commander, which says he's used to being in charge and giving orders.
23:14.372 --> 23:14.992
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, great.
23:15.012 --> 23:19.959
[SPEAKER_02]: He's got the key of hitting longing, which says that he's completely in love with Lady Blackbird, right?
23:20.280 --> 23:25.367
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he's got the key of the outcast, which we talked about earlier, which is that he's been exiled from the empire.
23:25.347 --> 23:29.954
[SPEAKER_02]: And those are all like, those are all really broad in a way, even the hidden long and long.
23:30.014 --> 23:36.504
[SPEAKER_02]: There's such like archetypal things, but then as you play, it's like, okay, but what kind of commander am I going to be?
23:36.665 --> 23:39.429
[SPEAKER_02]: Am I going to keep being a commander or am I going to buy that off?
23:39.449 --> 23:42.213
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what does my love for Lady Blackbird look like?
23:42.333 --> 23:42.934
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
23:42.994 --> 23:44.296
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, how does it manifest?
23:44.316 --> 23:46.360
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, who is this Cyrus Vance?
23:46.800 --> 23:53.110
[SPEAKER_02]: It's cool to see the active play being this like chiseling down of who a character is.
23:53.225 --> 23:54.669
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to tell me about team keys?
23:54.990 --> 23:56.494
[SPEAKER_02]: What's the deal of team keys?
23:56.514 --> 24:06.783
[SPEAKER_01]: So, especially since it's like only like a like a three player game at most, I wanted to give keys that kind of give you a reason to interact with your fellow partners in crime.
24:07.284 --> 24:07.605
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
24:08.159 --> 24:28.480
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's one team key that they all turn at the same time, which is when they're working as a unit, which is probably going to be often, but they also have keys that like hold hands with another player, like the team key of the cold and the bold is basically they turn it together when the other ones hyping them up or making them laugh during a tense moment.
24:28.460 --> 24:32.046
[SPEAKER_01]: and it kind of informs the way the character acts as another way.
24:32.107 --> 24:40.682
[SPEAKER_01]: So like the regular cold keys are basically okay, I only bought into conversations if I need to, and most of the time I think I know what I'm doing.
24:41.323 --> 24:43.988
[SPEAKER_01]: So the cold and the bold...
24:43.968 --> 24:50.618
[SPEAKER_01]: Team Key tells the player, okay, there are some instances where the cold doesn't necessarily feel as confident and the bold will be there.
24:50.658 --> 25:00.033
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, oh, no, it's okay, bro, we got this and also the cold has a as a team key with the old, which is basically when they, you know, the kind of like finding something in common.
25:00.053 --> 25:12.692
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I too, like expensive watches, so the cold keys tell you how the cold interacts with the world around them and how they solve problems, but the team key is kind of tells you how they interact with people.
25:12.773 --> 25:28.858
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I like that I was kind of saying this before but I like that is kind of an evolution on the sort of one sided relationship keys like that Cyrus Vance is in love with Lady Blackbird or whatever right like making it a bidirectional thing.
25:28.838 --> 25:51.640
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's you make it clearer that like both players should be invested in that relationship and like gives both of them like more of a handle for being able to contribute to what that looks like and how that plays out and that just feels more fun to be in a lot of ways because relationships are too cited right like that's yeah It's a cool evolution it also I feel like puts more
25:51.620 --> 25:58.590
[SPEAKER_02]: emphasis on the group and the group dynamics, then on like figuring out who your little character is going to be, right?
25:59.872 --> 26:03.477
[SPEAKER_02]: You should tell me a little bit more about like the setting of the old The Cold of Bold.
26:03.598 --> 26:17.458
[SPEAKER_02]: It is this like game where you're doing like crime gig economy workers, which is like an interesting thing where where's that coming from and like why did that feel like a good fit for this kind of set of mechanics?
26:17.438 --> 26:38.957
[SPEAKER_01]: the criminal getting economy just kind of came to me because I feel like it would be an interesting concept to explore where it's like okay you're not necessarily criminals that crime 247 it's like it kind of gives players the freedom to be like okay am I just doing this when I need a few extra bucks or am I like in it to win am I just doing crimes 247 and an app has helped me do it because it's like right.
26:38.937 --> 26:42.905
[SPEAKER_01]: People use the app because it's supposed to get the cops off their back.
26:42.925 --> 26:45.149
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of like, okay, I can do crime.
26:45.429 --> 26:48.796
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'll have to worry about the fuzz bothering me, which is fantastic.
26:49.517 --> 26:55.208
[SPEAKER_01]: And since it's, you know, through an app, you're supposed to assume that, like, the gigs are vetted quote unquote.
26:55.188 --> 26:55.829
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
26:55.950 --> 27:05.151
[SPEAKER_01]: But I know that some people have like assumed that it's supposed to be like dystopian, but in the second edition, I'm trying to make that clear.
27:05.191 --> 27:11.606
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not supposed to be the case, because it's like, you know, as the petition said, and I'll more focus that, you know, crime is always going to happen.
27:11.646 --> 27:13.230
[SPEAKER_01]: I might as well regulate it.
27:13.210 --> 27:22.178
[SPEAKER_01]: And another thing I tried to make clear in the second edition is the criminal gig economy isn't just, you know, the regular crimes where you like steal a car.
27:22.338 --> 27:28.103
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also like vigilante crimes like, you know, or a quote unquote, the justice people kind of forward.
27:28.724 --> 27:43.217
[SPEAKER_01]: So like in my head, the app exists because you have like the high roller high profile crimes like, okay, I'm a rich person and I don't like the other rich person or they still my idea.
27:43.197 --> 27:52.831
[SPEAKER_01]: And those are the crimes that pay the bills for the company, and then you have the ones where it's like, there is a guy that's recklessly been driving through neighborhood for days and no one's doing anything about it.
27:52.871 --> 27:54.153
[SPEAKER_01]: So can you do anything about it?
27:54.173 --> 27:58.259
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to ask questions, but, and then the app will be like, we're going to solve your problem.
27:58.279 --> 28:00.061
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to tell you how, but we're going to do it.
28:00.402 --> 28:04.007
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, you don't have to worry about anyone getting hit in the neighborhood anymore.
28:04.460 --> 28:11.127
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a really interesting take we're like all the exam, you know, you hear gig economy crime and I'm like, ah, we're doing hitman kind of thing.
28:11.147 --> 28:19.896
[SPEAKER_02]: And then like I read all the examples in the book and I was like, oh, yeah, this is so much more like utopian vision of what this would look like.
28:20.197 --> 28:28.165
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're doing crimes for like public service, which I found to be not the genre I was expecting from the game.
28:28.245 --> 28:32.610
[SPEAKER_02]: And not even how you would have to play the game, but like a great
28:32.590 --> 28:35.656
[SPEAKER_02]: set out of examples for like what this premise could be.
28:37.038 --> 28:37.239
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
28:37.259 --> 28:38.160
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't know.
28:38.180 --> 28:43.570
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any closing words for us to have anything else you want to say about your game or about keys at large or a ladywacker?
28:44.252 --> 28:45.614
[SPEAKER_01]: More people should play ladywacker.
28:45.734 --> 28:46.155
[SPEAKER_01]: It's free.
28:46.215 --> 28:46.877
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a PDF.
28:46.897 --> 28:51.024
[SPEAKER_01]: You can get it any time you update and spread it out and run it for your friends.
28:51.205 --> 28:51.966
[SPEAKER_01]: It's awesome.
28:52.655 --> 28:57.746
[SPEAKER_02]: and it's super short like it's a truly it's like 11 pages of rules at most.
28:57.826 --> 29:11.997
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of that is repeated text and then yeah I don't know like it's also such a low investment game like it really does work as like a one shot or it works as a really short campaign and I think that's a format I would also love to see more games in always.
29:12.382 --> 29:16.788
[SPEAKER_01]: and you get to roll handfuls of dice, which I know is exciting to any nerd ever.
29:17.208 --> 29:19.211
[SPEAKER_01]: You get to roll handfuls of D6s.
29:19.411 --> 29:23.297
[SPEAKER_02]: Bistfuls, yeah, you really get lots of dice going in this game.
29:23.337 --> 29:28.984
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we'll talk about like traits and dice pools next time, but yeah, well, Whitney thinks so much for coming on dice exploded.
29:29.004 --> 29:29.565
[SPEAKER_02]: This was great.
29:30.306 --> 29:31.808
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me, it was great.
29:35.753 --> 29:45.044
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again to Whitney for being here, followed the second edition of the old The Cold of Bold on Backer Hit today, there's a link in the show notes, and follow Whitney on Blue Sky at Toasty See Horse.
29:45.424 --> 29:54.255
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again to everyone who supports DICE Explorer on Patreon, as always you can find me on Blue Sky at DICE Explorer, and you can find my game, so that's on a wall.age.io.
29:54.635 --> 30:03.145
[SPEAKER_02]: Our logo is designed by Sporgery, our theme song is Sunset Bridge by Purely Gray, and our ad music is Lily Pads by my boy Travis Testman.
30:03.125 --> 30:04.492
[SPEAKER_02]: and thanks to you for listening.
30:04.573 --> 30:08.292
[SPEAKER_02]: I will see you next time.
00:05.802 --> 00:08.687
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome to another episode of DICE Exploder.
00:08.867 --> 00:12.874
[SPEAKER_02]: Each week we take a tabletop mechanic and try and crack the combo on its padlock.
00:13.174 --> 00:17.341
[SPEAKER_02]: My name is Sam Dunnawalt and my co-host today is Whitney Deloglio.
00:17.361 --> 00:18.784
[SPEAKER_02]: And here she is introducing herself.
00:19.124 --> 00:24.233
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, I'm Whitney of Toast DC Horse Studios, my pronouns are she, her and bro.
00:24.954 --> 00:29.582
[SPEAKER_01]: I've designed games, hype games, written for games, and drawn for games.
00:29.680 --> 00:39.840
[SPEAKER_02]: Whitney's the designer behind Prism, a diceless classic from the Ken's about Mermaid's and their relationships, as well as the old The Cold The Bold, a game about a criminal gig economy.
00:40.020 --> 00:45.411
[SPEAKER_02]: Whitney's got a second edition of The Old The Cold The Bold, coming to back her kit in a couple of weeks, May 4th,
00:45.391 --> 00:49.801
[SPEAKER_02]: So I thought I'd have her on to talk about a different game that the old called The Bold is based on.
00:50.463 --> 01:01.830
[SPEAKER_02]: Lady Blackbird, John Harper's 2009 game about the eponymous Lady Blackbird, a runaway noble, trying to reunite with her infamous pirate boyfriend and the plucky crew of smugglers who've agreed to help her.
01:01.810 --> 01:05.415
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I've made no secret that I'm a huge sucker for prewritten characters.
01:05.556 --> 01:10.222
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there should be way more of them in RPGs, and Lady Blackbird is the perfect example of why.
01:10.242 --> 01:14.068
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the mechanics it uses to really make its characters sing is keys.
01:14.489 --> 01:22.080
[SPEAKER_02]: Basically, statements about your character that you're rewarded for leaning into, or fucking entirely leaving behind forever and completely reinventing yourself.
01:22.060 --> 01:30.269
[SPEAKER_02]: Keys are a key part of the cold-de-old bolts too, so today we're giving everything about them and how you, or Whitney, might hack them.
01:30.890 --> 01:35.735
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks to everyone's sports dice exploreder on Patreon and here is Whitney with Keys from Lady Blackbird.
01:38.839 --> 01:40.180
[SPEAKER_02]: Whitney, welcome to dice newsletter.
01:40.661 --> 01:41.642
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, thank you for having me.
01:42.182 --> 01:43.184
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thanks for being here.
01:43.424 --> 01:44.966
[SPEAKER_02]: So what are we talking about today?
01:45.106 --> 01:51.713
[SPEAKER_01]: Today we're talking about Lady Blackbird and my game inspired by Lady Blackbird, the old The Cold The Bold.
01:51.845 --> 01:54.192
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so let's start with Lady Blackbird.
01:54.352 --> 01:56.478
[SPEAKER_02]: What is the deal with this fucking game?
01:56.518 --> 01:56.879
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what?
01:57.220 --> 01:58.885
[SPEAKER_02]: What's your history with Lady Blackbird?
01:58.905 --> 02:01.071
[SPEAKER_02]: You made a whole game based on her inspired by it.
02:01.352 --> 02:04.420
[SPEAKER_02]: You must have background with it, telling about that.
02:04.619 --> 02:24.484
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, when I was first dipping my toes into the pool, that is the indie game in community in Google Plus, RIP still existed a friend recommended it to me, because I was looking for easy games to get into, and I was like, oh, it's Charlie Blackbird, and it's a five player game, but you can actually run it with less players, I think.
02:24.464 --> 02:43.317
[SPEAKER_01]: where it's a story with the beginning and sort of an end and you figure out what happens in the middle, where you're basically a noble woman trying to get back to her pirate boyfriend and your body guards there and the pilot captain and mechanic of the ship that's getting you there is also in the game.
02:43.297 --> 02:47.228
[SPEAKER_01]: And then whether you go back to your prior boyfriend is up to you on the table.
02:47.468 --> 02:54.147
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I just like the idea that it's like a compartmentalized experience because it's like every character has its own character sheet.
02:54.728 --> 02:58.960
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're given like just enough to bite into to make up stuff as you go along.
02:59.075 --> 03:08.571
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, you really have these like really strongly defined pre-generated characters of like Lady Blackbird and her bodyguard and the Captain of the ship, right?
03:08.912 --> 03:16.324
[SPEAKER_02]: And you also have like a really strongly framed goal, like you're saying, go find your Pirate Boyfriend and see how he feels about you now.
03:16.304 --> 03:35.258
[SPEAKER_02]: But it also, I think most crucially, to me, like I could do a whole episode on this, it has like a really, really strong starting situation that it puts you in, like your ship that you are being smuggled on, essentially, has been picked up by the like, evil space empire, essentially.
03:35.238 --> 03:37.661
[SPEAKER_02]: you are trying to get back to your ship and escape.
03:37.801 --> 03:56.104
[SPEAKER_02]: And after that, you know, maybe you're going to go find your Pirate Boyfriend, maybe you're going to have to go hide and ask to write field, like whatever the thing is, maybe you're going to go have adventures with the sky-squared, like there are all kinds of like potential things that the game sort of gestures towards, but you always start in prison, it will like have a good pick up for a traffic violation basically, right?
03:56.364 --> 04:04.654
[SPEAKER_02]: And like with with that tension, hanging over you of like, are they going to discover that you are secretly a noble and what will happen if they do?
04:04.634 --> 04:20.010
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think all of that stuff is really clever and really good for doing what you were saying of like getting into a one shot contained kind of experience and really like kicking off with a bang and like giving you some direction for play.
04:20.210 --> 04:22.476
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a John Harper game, it came out in 2010.
04:23.559 --> 04:28.652
[SPEAKER_02]: We specifically are going to talk about the mechanic of keys in this game.
04:29.514 --> 04:35.991
[SPEAKER_02]: So why don't you walk us through what's the deal with a key on a character sheet?
04:36.157 --> 04:49.537
[SPEAKER_01]: A key on a carriage, she is kind of like a signal to the player and to the experience point, market that whenever you act upon your character's archetype, you turn that key and that gives you experience points.
04:49.557 --> 04:55.246
[SPEAKER_01]: So it kind of like informs the player how this character behaves in solves problems.
04:55.266 --> 04:58.771
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have Cyrus, who is the captain of the owl.
04:59.292 --> 05:02.637
[SPEAKER_01]: He used to work for the Empire, but now he doesn't.
05:02.617 --> 05:14.549
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have key of the outcasts, which is like you will or excite from the empire, turn this key when you're outcast status causing trouble, which in case at the beginning of the episode as we stated, you're arrested.
05:14.569 --> 05:19.413
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's only a matter of time to like, they connect the dots and find out that like, you know, you're an ex soldier.
05:19.894 --> 05:20.114
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
05:20.134 --> 05:26.801
[SPEAKER_01]: And the interesting thing about a key is that you can, you know, turn it normally, but you can also have that key get you in trouble.
05:26.941 --> 05:32.286
[SPEAKER_01]: Like at the beginning of the game, that that key can already get Cyrus in trouble when they're all arrested.
05:32.317 --> 05:35.242
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it works kind of like, like, fate aspects that way, right?
05:35.302 --> 05:44.716
[SPEAKER_02]: Of like, all these are supposed to be kind of double-edged swords, even if one of those edges is like sharper on any individual key, like key of the outcast here, right?
05:44.756 --> 05:54.291
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's really easy to imagine, okay, I'm going to use this to my benefit, to fit in with other exiles from the empire, other people don't like the empire.
05:54.271 --> 06:04.068
[SPEAKER_02]: or I'm going to use it to my detriment, share when they find out who I am and like, oh my, my like old deputy is here and hates my gut sort of like whatever the thing is, right?
06:04.769 --> 06:05.210
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
06:05.230 --> 06:05.370
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
06:05.390 --> 06:13.884
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know you mentioned it in that line is that keys also have a buy-off, just basically you turning your key to the extreme or I are doing the opposite.
06:14.385 --> 06:19.013
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in this case, the key of the outcast is regaining your former standing or joining a new group.
06:19.297 --> 06:25.029
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it'd be helpful to maybe do another example to sort of show what these buyoffs kind of look like.
06:25.530 --> 06:34.369
[SPEAKER_02]: So Lady Blackbird herself has key of the imposter, which says, you are in disguise passing yourself off as a commoner.
06:34.349 --> 06:38.075
[SPEAKER_02]: hit your key when you perform well enough to fool someone with your disguise.
06:38.395 --> 06:38.916
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, great.
06:38.996 --> 06:44.284
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you're going to be doing the like prints and poppers clothing like thing for a bunch of time.
06:44.585 --> 06:48.430
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the buy-off is reveal your true identity to someone you fooled.
06:48.791 --> 06:56.723
[SPEAKER_02]: And the buy-offs all feel kind of like that a big moment to the like climax of having played into this thing for a while, right?
06:57.144 --> 06:58.045
[SPEAKER_02]: Where
06:58.025 --> 07:09.140
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, if you're going to do the thing where like, oh, I spend an hour like being in disguise and being like, oh, I'm just a lowly commoner and then like you throw off your cloak and we get the big like anime moments or whatever, right?
07:09.180 --> 07:14.568
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm like, this is who I really am like, and when you hit your key, you get XP, right?
07:15.349 --> 07:19.514
[SPEAKER_02]: And when that you hit your key and it gets you in trouble, you get to XP.
07:19.915 --> 07:23.560
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you hit your buyoff, you essentially get 5 XP, right?
07:23.620 --> 07:27.205
[SPEAKER_02]: You get this like big bonus whenever you do it.
07:27.337 --> 07:33.576
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I mean, like, I think that these things are, this really improbable package of like role playing prompt.
07:33.977 --> 07:39.253
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, tell me what you think about key is like, what made you, what drew you to key is what excites you about keys?
07:39.773 --> 08:02.710
[SPEAKER_01]: I think like when you're at like at a convention or at their table with your friends and name me it's like this is like a new game for you or it's a first time for people role playing or with like typical character generation a lot of times it's up to the player like ways your character like how is your character behave how is your character problem solve usually the character generation doesn't answer those questions so it's up to the player
08:02.690 --> 08:19.915
[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like, with this game in particular, it does love that work for you with the keys, because every key is evocative, so you know what the character's backstory is, how they interact with the world around them and how they solve problems.
08:19.995 --> 08:25.523
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Kale, for example, his keys, he's the mechanic, but he also like shiny things.
08:25.543 --> 08:28.748
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's constantly
08:28.863 --> 08:44.053
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love keys because I've been arguing for years at this point, sometimes on the show and often off the show that like, I love pre-gents and more games should have pre-gents, and like keys are why.
08:44.033 --> 09:05.739
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the thing that you just described of like okay, so you show up at the table and we like get our stats and like now what like what do I do with this character like he's solved that problem There's a whole list of them so you get three of them per character and it's really easy when you don't know what to do You know in the same way like in apocalypse world or like a PBTA game You can look down at your character.
09:05.759 --> 09:07.321
[SPEAKER_02]: She can be like what should I do right now?
09:07.341 --> 09:08.041
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's a move.
09:08.182 --> 09:09.383
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna do that move
09:09.363 --> 09:10.364
[SPEAKER_02]: Does it make sense?
09:10.424 --> 09:16.109
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's find out, you know, like this is like the fiction forward like version of that with keys, right?
09:16.129 --> 09:19.812
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I don't know what to do, but I'm playing kale and this says you like shiny things.
09:19.892 --> 09:24.016
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, alright, what can I steal while I'm locked in this jail cell?
09:24.056 --> 09:28.040
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, even if it doesn't make sense, it gives you some direction.
09:28.080 --> 09:29.681
[SPEAKER_02]: And then often it does make sense, right?
09:29.761 --> 09:39.370
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, maybe, oh, I like shiny things that means that did I like pocket this key earlier, you know?
09:39.350 --> 09:42.375
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you can make strong choices with them too, right?
09:42.415 --> 09:51.149
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, key of greed is going to play really differently if you are saying, like, Ooh, I am constantly stealing from the other players at the table.
09:51.209 --> 09:52.431
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, they are coins, right?
09:52.731 --> 09:56.177
[SPEAKER_02]: Versus, oh, I know a lot about light.
09:56.157 --> 10:17.102
[SPEAKER_02]: Diamonds or whatever and that means when we encounter a diamond like I'm really I'm going to distract us Well, I go pick it up and I know a lot about it I can evaluate it because I really I like shiny things so much, you know, but also a big problem a lot of people have with pre-generated characters is feeling like they are locked in I feel like
10:17.082 --> 10:23.333
[SPEAKER_02]: And the keys give you clear targets to shoot for, well, I think not locking you in, right?
10:23.373 --> 10:30.225
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's still up to you whether you're going to hit the key, like which of them you're going to prioritize or exactly how you're going to use any individual want of them.
10:30.245 --> 10:33.791
[SPEAKER_02]: So they just like give you clear targets while leaving you a lot of flexibility.
10:33.811 --> 10:34.973
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love that about them.
10:35.274 --> 10:38.179
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you don't like one, you can just hit the buyoff right away, right?
10:38.159 --> 10:41.645
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I don't forget to do this part, but you replace it with a new key.
10:41.665 --> 10:43.869
[SPEAKER_01]: You're supposed to do that by a number of remember to do that.
10:44.410 --> 10:44.931
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
10:45.592 --> 10:48.437
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but so they're also in an advancement track thing, right?
10:48.477 --> 10:55.830
[SPEAKER_02]: Like because they, which feels right because they're like moments of character growth when you buy off a key or a character change at any rate.
10:55.870 --> 10:57.433
[SPEAKER_02]: Not necessarily always growth.
10:57.413 --> 11:05.065
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's a list of like generic keys that anyone can take in the back of the want to say book, but it's only a 16 page PDF.
11:05.345 --> 11:08.811
[SPEAKER_02]: But like back there on one of the pages is a bunch of extra keys you can take.
11:09.171 --> 11:16.422
[SPEAKER_02]: And the keys are also like simple enough in the formatting is clear enough that it's like very easy to be able to write your own to, I think.
11:16.462 --> 11:21.430
[SPEAKER_02]: Like these are such they're one sentence long, you know, plus a buy off.
11:21.494 --> 11:27.572
[SPEAKER_02]: How have keys played at the table for you when you are actually like playing Lady Blackbird?
11:28.092 --> 11:31.916
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the first time I played Lady Blackbird, I was Lady Blackbird.
11:32.497 --> 11:50.135
[SPEAKER_01]: And I like basically bought off a key of the imposter, like almost immediately while we were still in prison because I'm like, I'm gonna reveal that I'm a stormblood right now because I thought it made sense for how I envision Lady Blackbird, I'd want to show off as soon as possible.
11:50.816 --> 11:57.002
[SPEAKER_01]: And also because I really wanted secret to the sky squid and like if I buy off something now, I'll have sky squid now.
11:56.982 --> 11:58.865
[SPEAKER_01]: guys going now so win win.
11:59.306 --> 12:16.713
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's really interesting contrast to I've played just a one shot of this game and the lady blackbird in our game spent the whole session like three hours leading into like ooh, I'm secretly like a like a not buying off that key right and like really playing the character in a different way.
12:16.733 --> 12:18.315
[SPEAKER_02]: That's interesting.
12:18.683 --> 12:19.244
[SPEAKER_02]: Go on though.
12:19.424 --> 12:19.825
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
12:19.845 --> 12:20.005
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
12:20.025 --> 12:20.345
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
12:20.365 --> 12:27.896
[SPEAKER_01]: And the person who played kale at the table interpreted the brotherhood they had between him and Cyrus as romantic.
12:27.936 --> 12:31.061
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was unfortunately under quite a love work.
12:31.502 --> 12:34.887
[SPEAKER_01]: Kale wasn't love a Cyrus, but Cyrus and love wasn't love with Lady Blackbird.
12:35.748 --> 12:42.818
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and the interesting thing about this game is every time I've either been in the game or ran it.
12:42.798 --> 12:57.820
[SPEAKER_01]: The relationship between Natasha and her bodyguard Naomi is never the same because like when I played it for the first time But I was kind of like the person who's privileged and is trying to help a kind of failing at because they don't know how to
12:57.800 --> 13:11.965
[SPEAKER_01]: But what we ended up being like, you know, best buds in the end, but I ran or been such as we're like, no, me hates Natasha and this is, it's begrudgingly protecting her or this more like a contractual thing where it's like, okay, I'm serving you until you get to your boyfriend and then we're done.
13:12.005 --> 13:12.746
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm free.
13:12.806 --> 13:14.830
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm never, I never have to see you again.
13:14.911 --> 13:18.339
[SPEAKER_02]: that really speaks to like how much flexibility there is with these keys.
13:18.399 --> 13:20.624
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like with pre-generated characters in general, right?
13:20.885 --> 13:21.266
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
13:21.967 --> 13:30.507
[SPEAKER_02]: I also love like how with keys they really play to different lengths of campaign.
13:30.487 --> 13:31.668
[SPEAKER_02]: in a really interesting way.
13:32.169 --> 13:37.596
[SPEAKER_02]: Like in a one shot, I think everyone kind of feels like actually like, you know, make some noise.
13:37.636 --> 13:41.100
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, like get this stuff, get some shit going, you know?
13:41.380 --> 13:51.252
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the buyoffs in particular give you a really clear way to do that, because all of them are just so obviously, oh, this will be a big moment that I can make happen.
13:51.392 --> 13:52.794
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if that's the thing that I want to do.
13:53.375 --> 13:56.258
[SPEAKER_02]: But it is also, it's really easy
13:56.238 --> 14:05.688
[SPEAKER_02]: to imagine playing a succession game of Lady Blackbird and like really taking your time with those buyoffs to and like still hitting the keys for a long time.
14:06.069 --> 14:08.537
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like doing doing the thing with them.
14:09.059 --> 14:10.062
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love that like...
14:11.071 --> 14:27.603
[SPEAKER_02]: In both of those circumstances, there's still this sort of like endless potential energy to the buyoffs, like there's this constant tension that never goes away, even if you never take the buyoff of like, but is the buyoff going to happen this time or not?
14:28.244 --> 14:32.893
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's such a neat little thing to have in a tight little package here.
14:32.873 --> 14:35.015
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you put any like campaigns of Lady Blackbird?
14:35.436 --> 14:39.139
[SPEAKER_01]: The first session I was in was a play by post, so it was kind of like a campaign.
14:39.500 --> 14:44.765
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like even when it's a corner quote one shot, we usually spread out the three sessions just so can breathe.
14:44.845 --> 14:47.868
[SPEAKER_01]: Because usually it's only in one shot when it's like out of combat.
14:47.888 --> 14:54.795
[SPEAKER_01]: The other thing, and I know I mentioned this like way I'm a four, like it's a five player game, but I run it for a different number of people.
14:54.815 --> 15:02.543
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not always a full house, like I've run it for a kale and a snarkel who
15:02.523 --> 15:05.268
[SPEAKER_01]: And we just go off on adventure Mike bet.
15:05.288 --> 15:08.313
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Cyrus and Naomi that's their problem.
15:08.333 --> 15:13.802
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean the two of you He's starting to separate sell and like shenanigans are foot.
15:13.922 --> 15:26.944
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I feel like this would if only because like I said The the setting gives you just enough to bite into but doesn't like confining with two a box So this is exactly how the world works and you can't go outside of this box
15:26.924 --> 15:33.963
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you could easily be like, okay, the owl is escape the clutches of the Imperial Army.
15:34.425 --> 15:39.859
[SPEAKER_01]: We could go to this planet, we could go to the asteroids, we could spend three episodes with sky squids.
15:39.880 --> 15:41.524
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love that personally, but...
15:42.382 --> 15:51.118
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the skies with so much, or you could have like really extensive refresh teams, just kind of like flashbacks and character history and character questions.
15:51.159 --> 16:03.883
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this game can easily be a one-shot, but I feel like with depending on how much you want to explore, whether it be character interactions or the world around you, it could definitely be multiple sessions.
16:04.584 --> 16:05.706
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, totally.
16:12.824 --> 16:19.195
[SPEAKER_02]: So you've made a game kind of inspired by Lady Blackbird that like mechanically feels very similar.
16:19.215 --> 16:21.259
[SPEAKER_02]: It's called the old The Cold and the Bolds.
16:21.279 --> 16:24.444
[SPEAKER_02]: It is coming to backer kit very soon.
16:24.484 --> 16:26.047
[SPEAKER_02]: Tell me about that game.
16:26.067 --> 16:31.997
[SPEAKER_02]: Like where did that game come from and why did you use Lady Blackbird as like a framework for it?
16:32.264 --> 16:43.818
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I went first game that I had an idea about knowing what waffle mold to put it in, because it was originally a game about evil house spouses, but that's a story for a different day.
16:43.878 --> 16:49.685
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I really like crime dramas, but crime dramas have a lot of concept.
16:49.765 --> 17:00.178
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't exactly like, so how can I make a game about doing crimes that has all the stuff I don't like about crime dramas out of the equation?
17:00.158 --> 17:10.249
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was listening to Terry Pratchett's audiobooks and the idea of an assassin's the guild and the thieves guild came up.
17:10.309 --> 17:12.551
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, that sounds like perfect.
17:12.591 --> 17:13.592
[SPEAKER_01]: It's regulated crime.
17:13.632 --> 17:18.858
[SPEAKER_01]: So obviously, it can't go too crazy or come through because it's regulated crime.
17:19.599 --> 17:24.284
[SPEAKER_01]: And the title just came to me like, it was even like something I was like brainstorming.
17:24.304 --> 17:26.446
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just like, it's gonna be called the old, the cold, the bold.
17:26.486 --> 17:28.528
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh, those are three archetypes.
17:28.508 --> 17:33.057
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been wanting to do a hack of way the blackboard anyway.
17:33.398 --> 17:39.631
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's seem like a good fit because it's like the three architectives would be just each thrown character sheet.
17:40.613 --> 17:49.892
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it was just a matter of figuring out how to make it different from way the blackboard and add my own content to it.
17:50.058 --> 18:18.090
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's interesting that like both of these games just have the name of the most important character like in the title, like I know yours is a trio right, but it doesn't also, I don't know there's something interesting about that like I also think like when by naming the characters after their archetypes, you know, it's not like they refer to each other, it's not like when I sit down to play the game and I'm playing the cold, I'm like, hey, bold, come over here and like help me with this, you know, like, but
18:18.070 --> 18:42.812
[SPEAKER_02]: that makes it interesting to me the midpoint on pre-generated character to not that you have kind of found in your game, where on the one hand they feel totally like pre-gence in the sense that they are really clear arc types and they have all these keys really like laid out, but they don't feel like pre-gence in that they
18:42.792 --> 18:50.885
[SPEAKER_02]: Jell have names, and it's like very clear that you can kind of take them and do whatever you want with them.
18:51.687 --> 19:02.284
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's so weird that just like naming them makes them feel like pre-gents and Lady Blackbird, whereas not naming them makes them feel like not pre-gents and you are.
19:02.364 --> 19:05.710
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like the old just feels like a PVTA playbook or something, right?
19:06.030 --> 19:07.112
[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas,
19:07.092 --> 19:14.732
[SPEAKER_02]: You're making exactly the same sort of choices about the character in Lady Blackbird or in the Old The Cold the Bold with the same kind of character.
19:14.912 --> 19:19.965
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like the characters are flexible in the same way both in Lady Blackbird and the Old The Cold the Bold.
19:20.185 --> 19:22.772
[SPEAKER_02]: You're literally just naming them in one and not the other.
19:23.444 --> 19:24.385
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it makes sense.
19:24.405 --> 19:28.409
[SPEAKER_01]: So because once there are names, they're not just any person, they're a person.
19:28.590 --> 19:28.870
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:29.150 --> 19:37.580
[SPEAKER_01]: Like with Lady Blackbird, like her being like the name of the game, like she is the reason why you're arrest, because she didn't want to get back to her private boyfriend.
19:37.980 --> 19:41.604
[SPEAKER_01]: None of you would be in the situation in the first place because as I said, that's always the beginning.
19:42.225 --> 19:47.410
[SPEAKER_01]: And while she has a name, you can make it in form choices like, okay, she has key of the stormblood.
19:47.751 --> 19:48.512
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean?
19:48.812 --> 19:50.093
[SPEAKER_01]: Has castor spells?
19:50.113 --> 19:50.734
[SPEAKER_01]: Did it?
19:50.714 --> 20:06.192
[SPEAKER_01]: But with the old, the cold, the bowl, it's like, okay, I'm an old, so I'm like, Mike from Breaking Bad Vericaw, Saul, or I'm Mr. White and Reservoir Dogs, but what else about me, adding to the character, which is including your screen name.
20:06.812 --> 20:07.193
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally.
20:07.533 --> 20:10.897
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so talk to me about writing keys for this game.
20:10.917 --> 20:17.785
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what, what, what did you find like fun or easy about writing keys for the old
20:18.170 --> 20:23.139
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, what was most challenging was making sure the diction made it.
20:23.239 --> 20:33.698
[SPEAKER_01]: So they were easy to turn because the thing is it's like, especially like an archetype or a character like, there's a million things you can think of a character will do it any given time.
20:33.678 --> 20:38.403
[SPEAKER_01]: but you want to think of something that they're constantly doing so you can like more than more often than not turn the keys.
20:38.503 --> 20:50.656
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was matter of explaining each key in a way where a player can be using it like most of the time because my thought was they have one key if they're just they're turning more often and one key not so much.
20:51.156 --> 20:57.463
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is why I also I had the team keys just like just a case since each player only has two keys instead of the usual three.
20:57.843 --> 20:59.265
[SPEAKER_02]: Well you mentioned team keys there.
20:59.405 --> 21:00.606
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll get back to that in a second.
21:00.666 --> 21:01.407
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go on.
21:02.180 --> 21:18.187
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's a fun part was just actually just like thinking of like what keys make that archetype shine so like the old is the easiest because there's an old and like every crime drama right so it's just basically okay, they're the fixer so they're fixing every time you're back hurts turn your key.
21:18.307 --> 21:19.108
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
21:20.675 --> 21:21.236
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel that.
21:21.336 --> 21:24.079
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish I could buy that one off, so I don't have it anymore.
21:24.499 --> 21:25.620
[SPEAKER_01]: How do I buy that off?
21:26.081 --> 21:32.127
[SPEAKER_02]: You buy that one off by like getting paralyzed or something, I don't know.
21:32.147 --> 21:33.208
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't need my back anymore.
21:34.590 --> 21:34.970
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
21:35.170 --> 21:46.362
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was easy enough to come up with keys for the old and the cold was interesting because the diplomatic person in a crime drama usually gets trumped by the
21:46.342 --> 21:47.183
[SPEAKER_01]: or the overhead.
21:47.563 --> 21:51.147
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was fine making keys that put power back at that record type.
21:51.947 --> 22:07.262
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, the bold was fine, but it also difficult because the bold is kind of like a spin off of the hot head slash loudmouth where I did it want them to be like that, but I also wanted to keep that energy sort of in the playbook.
22:07.282 --> 22:16.011
[SPEAKER_01]: So that one was probably the most challenging to come up with keys, but also the most fun because that archetype speaks to me on so
22:15.991 --> 22:24.620
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I appreciate the challenge so because it was fun, it was fun just trying to think of ways to describe describes something that makes the more open-ended keys.
22:25.321 --> 22:25.621
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
22:26.362 --> 22:27.584
[SPEAKER_02]: Here you need to talk about it.
22:27.844 --> 22:45.643
[SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting to me to think about how arch-type-all so many of these keys are and then playing the game is like figuring out your version of what that arch-type is going to be, right?
22:46.231 --> 22:58.405
[SPEAKER_02]: defining your character into a specific person as opposed to the archetype whether that archetype is Lady Blackbird, Noble on the Run, or whether that archetype is the old, right?
22:58.485 --> 23:01.253
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the old and the crime drama.
23:01.233 --> 23:14.051
[SPEAKER_02]: But that there's like I'm looking at like Cyrus Vance's key is like the captain of the ship in Lady Blackbird and he's got key of the commander, which says he's used to being in charge and giving orders.
23:14.372 --> 23:14.992
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, great.
23:15.012 --> 23:19.959
[SPEAKER_02]: He's got the key of hitting longing, which says that he's completely in love with Lady Blackbird, right?
23:20.280 --> 23:25.367
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he's got the key of the outcast, which we talked about earlier, which is that he's been exiled from the empire.
23:25.347 --> 23:29.954
[SPEAKER_02]: And those are all like, those are all really broad in a way, even the hidden long and long.
23:30.014 --> 23:36.504
[SPEAKER_02]: There's such like archetypal things, but then as you play, it's like, okay, but what kind of commander am I going to be?
23:36.665 --> 23:39.429
[SPEAKER_02]: Am I going to keep being a commander or am I going to buy that off?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what does my love for Lady Blackbird look like?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, how does it manifest?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, who is this Cyrus Vance?
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's cool to see the active play being this like chiseling down of who a character is.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to tell me about team keys?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What's the deal of team keys?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, especially since it's like only like a like a three player game at most, I wanted to give keys that kind of give you a reason to interact with your fellow partners in crime.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So there's one team key that they all turn at the same time, which is when they're working as a unit, which is probably going to be often, but they also have keys that like hold hands with another player, like the team key of the cold and the bold is basically they turn it together when the other ones hyping them up or making them laugh during a tense moment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and it kind of informs the way the character acts as another way.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So like the regular cold keys are basically okay, I only bought into conversations if I need to, and most of the time I think I know what I'm doing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So the cold and the bold...
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[SPEAKER_01]: Team Key tells the player, okay, there are some instances where the cold doesn't necessarily feel as confident and the bold will be there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But like, oh, no, it's okay, bro, we got this and also the cold has a as a team key with the old, which is basically when they, you know, the kind of like finding something in common.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like I too, like expensive watches, so the cold keys tell you how the cold interacts with the world around them and how they solve problems, but the team key is kind of tells you how they interact with people.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I like that I was kind of saying this before but I like that is kind of an evolution on the sort of one sided relationship keys like that Cyrus Vance is in love with Lady Blackbird or whatever right like making it a bidirectional thing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Let's you make it clearer that like both players should be invested in that relationship and like gives both of them like more of a handle for being able to contribute to what that looks like and how that plays out and that just feels more fun to be in a lot of ways because relationships are too cited right like that's yeah It's a cool evolution it also I feel like puts more
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[SPEAKER_02]: emphasis on the group and the group dynamics, then on like figuring out who your little character is going to be, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You should tell me a little bit more about like the setting of the old The Cold of Bold.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It is this like game where you're doing like crime gig economy workers, which is like an interesting thing where where's that coming from and like why did that feel like a good fit for this kind of set of mechanics?
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[SPEAKER_01]: the criminal getting economy just kind of came to me because I feel like it would be an interesting concept to explore where it's like okay you're not necessarily criminals that crime 247 it's like it kind of gives players the freedom to be like okay am I just doing this when I need a few extra bucks or am I like in it to win am I just doing crimes 247 and an app has helped me do it because it's like right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: People use the app because it's supposed to get the cops off their back.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of like, okay, I can do crime.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I'll have to worry about the fuzz bothering me, which is fantastic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And since it's, you know, through an app, you're supposed to assume that, like, the gigs are vetted quote unquote.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I know that some people have like assumed that it's supposed to be like dystopian, but in the second edition, I'm trying to make that clear.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's not supposed to be the case, because it's like, you know, as the petition said, and I'll more focus that, you know, crime is always going to happen.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I might as well regulate it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And another thing I tried to make clear in the second edition is the criminal gig economy isn't just, you know, the regular crimes where you like steal a car.
27:22.338 --> 27:28.103
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also like vigilante crimes like, you know, or a quote unquote, the justice people kind of forward.
27:28.724 --> 27:43.217
[SPEAKER_01]: So like in my head, the app exists because you have like the high roller high profile crimes like, okay, I'm a rich person and I don't like the other rich person or they still my idea.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And those are the crimes that pay the bills for the company, and then you have the ones where it's like, there is a guy that's recklessly been driving through neighborhood for days and no one's doing anything about it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So can you do anything about it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to ask questions, but, and then the app will be like, we're going to solve your problem.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to tell you how, but we're going to do it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, you don't have to worry about anyone getting hit in the neighborhood anymore.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a really interesting take we're like all the exam, you know, you hear gig economy crime and I'm like, ah, we're doing hitman kind of thing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then like I read all the examples in the book and I was like, oh, yeah, this is so much more like utopian vision of what this would look like.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're doing crimes for like public service, which I found to be not the genre I was expecting from the game.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And not even how you would have to play the game, but like a great
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[SPEAKER_02]: set out of examples for like what this premise could be.
28:37.038 --> 28:37.239
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't know.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any closing words for us to have anything else you want to say about your game or about keys at large or a ladywacker?
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[SPEAKER_01]: More people should play ladywacker.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's free.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a PDF.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can get it any time you update and spread it out and run it for your friends.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's awesome.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and it's super short like it's a truly it's like 11 pages of rules at most.
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[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of that is repeated text and then yeah I don't know like it's also such a low investment game like it really does work as like a one shot or it works as a really short campaign and I think that's a format I would also love to see more games in always.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and you get to roll handfuls of dice, which I know is exciting to any nerd ever.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You get to roll handfuls of D6s.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Bistfuls, yeah, you really get lots of dice going in this game.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we'll talk about like traits and dice pools next time, but yeah, well, Whitney thinks so much for coming on dice exploded.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This was great.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me, it was great.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again to Whitney for being here, followed the second edition of the old The Cold of Bold on Backer Hit today, there's a link in the show notes, and follow Whitney on Blue Sky at Toasty See Horse.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again to everyone who supports DICE Explorer on Patreon, as always you can find me on Blue Sky at DICE Explorer, and you can find my game, so that's on a wall.age.io.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Our logo is designed by Sporgery, our theme song is Sunset Bridge by Purely Gray, and our ad music is Lily Pads by my boy Travis Testman.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and thanks to you for listening.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I will see you next time.
