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[gentle music] You're listening to the Contract Heroes Podcast, your one-stop shop for all things contract management. And now here are your hosts, Mark and Pepe.
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Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes. Today, joining us is the principal attorney at NextGen Law and also the host of the Empire State of Grind podcast, Aaron Fisher.
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Now, let's get into the episode. Well, Aaron, thank you so much for joining us. We're really excited to be sitting down with you today to have this conversation.
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Before we flip things over to Pepe who can g- give us a little bit of a better understanding of what we're gonna be chatting about today, uh, we'd love to just get some more information on you, your background, anything you got in the works right now as well.
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Sure. So my name's Aaron Fisher. I've been in, like, the tech side of legal for about 12 years now. I worked at some startups, most notably Datadog. I was there from 2016 to 2022.
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Currently, I have my own law practice where I help tech startups with go-to-market and commercial contracting,
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and I also host a podcast called Empire State of Grind, where we learn about other tech startups in and out of New York City. That's awesome, Aaron.
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And we also have, two times already, one person that used to work at Datadog, Laurie Elrich. So that this is- Yeah... really cool to have somebody else from that work Datadog.
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And we, we've been flipping around on a lot of topics. We've been talking a- a lot a- around how do you start a CLM process, a lot of AI, because right now it's, like, the main, like...
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It's, like, the big buzzword because everybody thinks that AI is just going to- For sure... fix everything.
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But there's a lot of things that, that you gotta take into consideration before jumping to tech and not thinking about that AI just like a magic wand. So Aaron, we're really curious- For sure...
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about your experience in contract management and what's your approach in it on how to make a business more efficient, and how can stakeholders can use the information and data from their contracts to do more or to do better business decisions?
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Yeah, no, happy to talk about it. So I think the crux of, like, contract management, maybe there's two aspects.
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One is at a bigger growing company, you have a lot of information in these that I think what you're pointing to, or you can either, like, unearth some efficiencies or commonalities, and then other times you just need to look up what have we agreed to.
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So I think there's two, like, big use cases. Traditionally, especially in the startup world, it does kind of, for a while anyway, you have one person negotiating all this, so it's a little bit of, like,
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there's a human with all this knowledge. And then as the company expands and, you know, you have different people working on it, that repository of knowledge goes away unless you're having a system in place.
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So I think the upfront cost is definitely worth it. Right. Um, you kind of need to get ahead of the problem first, otherwise you kind of have too much out there to wrangle in.
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So from what I've seen as far as, like, the need for it, one is, like, risk management. So you might get asked by an executive, "Hey, what's, like, the total liabilities we've agreed to?"
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And you're not gonna know that off the top of your head, right? That's impossible. So you need something that is, you know, both knowledgeable and searchable.
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And then on the other end, I think it's helpful to see trends, especially on, like, my side, I deal mostly with customer contracts. So what are people pushing back on? What are they not?
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So you can kind of update agreement types for, like, better efficiency to just get this done, right? So you might be able to see something like we're asking for, I don't know, a certain termination right.
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Everyone pushes back on it, and we always agree to remove it. Maybe it's worth just removing and getting rid of that friction and having, like, a faster sales process.
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And that's where I think, like, AI can really help in this regard, is both seeing those type of trends and then I think easier tracking and searching of, like, a contract's database. Exactly.
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And f- like, a lot of companies when they make this mistake of just jumping directly to tech without knowing the processes and what type of information can they get from their contracts, like the example you just said, like, what's the liability you agreed on on all of your contracts?
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They're not gonna have that on top of, of their mind. So how would you approach it in a change management way?
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Because when you're doing, like, the pre-CLM process, like, we like to call it, like, phase zero, you start to talk with, uh, different stakeholders, understanding what are their problems, and trying to show them how they can be fixed by implementing certain kind of technology, like a CLM.
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But have you- Yeah... had any kind of discussion, or how can you get excited people so once you are going live on a new tech, everybody that is going to use it are excited to use it and adoption rates grow? Yeah.
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So I think for sure the barrier here, or the barricade you need to get over, the hurdle is probably a better word, is that this isn't directly tied to ROI, right?
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So you don't go, "Hey, we implement this system and it makes us X amount or saves us X amount of money." So what I've learned is, like, you do need to have some executive buy-in.
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Pr- usually it's gonna be helpful to have it on a revenue-generating side.
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So that's one thing I've always been kind of fortunate as I'm working with the revenue-generating teams and sales, that you want to tie it then to efficiency on the other end.
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So like I just said, if you can say, "Listen, it'll get us to close deals faster or more efficiently," that's a good way for the business to see value in it.
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And then I think this depends a lot too on, like, who- The executives are and what they see as valuable. Risk management, I think, is another aspect these tools can bring, and to raise that as a reason.
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I think the other side of it, which you can do, is how are you doing this now, right?
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So if you have a human being who is manually entering all this information into, you know, a system outside of a CLM, maybe like your CRM, like Salesforce or something, for key information, you can bring that up as a point of reference for, "Look, we're already spending money on this now.
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Maybe we're doing it inefficiently. I think if we implemented the right tools, we could unlock some of this potential over here," and then try to tie it to revenue.
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'Cause at least I'm maybe a bit biased 'cause I work with startups, and revenue is king. Maybe in a larger company it's tied to saving money or, like I said, the risk management aspect.
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You kinda gotta understand the driver, and it's not going to be because it would make my job as a lawyer easier. That doesn't really move the needle, so you do wanna tie it to, like, an actual business goal. Right.
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And we know, Aaron, that you work in the entertainment industry and also in the tech industry. Like, can you give us some- Yep...
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real examples what were, like, the main challenges or hurdles on the contract management process, and what were the benefits that they found out in case that they're implementing the, uh, CLM- Yeah... work, right?
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So, as you mentioned, I worked in music before tech. Various roles, but I did work at, like, one of the major record labels in-house for a bit, at, uh, Warner Music Group and Atlantic Records.
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And what's interesting is the music industry, it's kind of the opposite. They do this up front because you are going back to the contract all the time, right? So you... Especially, like, your contracts with the artists.
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I mean, a lot of my job was literally looking up contracts and seeing, like, who did we need to get approval rights from based on, uh, the licenses that we own for certain music. So hip-hop's a great example, right?
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A lot of early hip-hop was sampled from '70s R&B. If you wanna go use that song now in a movie, you gotta see who do I need to get the clearance from.
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So we literally had, like, a room of paper contracts bef- you know, this is going back to literally the 1950s, and then a computer system for the more modern ones that were searchable and whatnot.
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As far as looking across all contracts, there was no system for that, right? So it was more, like, on an individual basis you would need to look up based on a need from that particular artist or even song.
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Tech is very different, where it's not that hard, it shouldn't be anyway, to find a single contract, right? Like, you just save things in a similar format.
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If it's on OneDrive or whatever, you search it for the customer you're looking for, you should be able to find it. But the need for aggregated data is way bigger.
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So, right, in, in those companies, I think you asked, like, what's the biggest hurdle, it's kind of like I was saying, the marrying, I guess, the business efficiency with this need that probably isn't actually gonna be there until you're a bigger company.
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So you wanna see this as something you can treat right from the beginning or deal with this bigger problem later. And I'm of the belief that doesn't really matter what happened in the past.
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Like, now is always the best time to get started on the right thing to do.
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So I think the hurdle, though, is that for the type of companies I work with, and certainly at Datadog, you're building a sales process that you wanna remove legal from as much as possible.
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So it's really, like, the automation of recording that you wanna get done, right? So I'm going to enable, like, a deal desk to change certain terms in the agreement right on an order form.
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I don't want them to have to come to me. But still, how do I track those changes if it's something we wanna track?
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I'd say it is from not a risk perspective, but business tooling, so that things like automatic renewals or publicity, you may want to track what you're agreeing to with customers so you have a searchable database of what customers can we reference, do I wanna send automatic reminders ahead of an auto-renewal based on either what we've agreed to or state law regarding this.
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So there's a lot of reason to do it. I think my experience with startups in general is that they care far more, and they should, about closing business than, like, these problems that are five years down the road. Right.
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You know, I think you brought up a couple interesting points there, Aaron. And in different industries, right, it's that legacy data is stored in different places. But I think at the end of- Yeah...
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the day, the issue that everyone is facing is getting those, all of those documents into a single location once they start to look at migrating from whatever le- legacy type of system that be, whether it's stuff stored in filing cabinets or a OneDrive or SharePoint, and moving to something that's, you know, moving to a s- a full-blown CLM.
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In the past, have you been a part of any of those migrations to a CLM, and any tips there for folks that are looking to make that move? Yes and no.
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So this is something, like, if you are future-looking, you know this is an issue you have to deal with, even when you're in a small department.
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Not so much in music, but in tech, in legal you're, you should always be understaffed. Until you're a big company, this, uh, should be a lean department running that way.
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So I think the truth is when I was building a department, the tech wasn't there to solve this problem that way, right? We're talking almost 10 years ago.
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So we hired a very smart human being to kinda help build this out, both looking backward and going forward. So we had all our contracts in a database. "Can you update this?"
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We had then changed it over, like I was saying, into a CRM-like input, but it was still manual.
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So after we'd close a negotiated deal, we'd update the terms with that specific customer so it did live in, like, a searchable way. But to be honest, it wasn't the most efficient.
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And yes, I would sit in on, like, meetings with, you know, different vendors for this. At the time, I didn't see a solution that was honestly hyper-focused on this problem.
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They all seemed to want to negotiate for me or make that the value proposition, which I still don't really see [laughs] as that valuable for me, to be honest.
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Whereas the one we're talking about, I think, is the tech is there now, like generative AI should be able to pull out this type of information from agreements and catalog it.
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And I've actually had a client that, like, made an internal tool for this recently, and I've been using it, right? Like, I get asked to negotiate a agreement with an existing client.
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I can easily find their old MSA in the, uh, archives. It's pretty cool. So I think there will be like a pretty quick shift here. Obviously, you guys are more tied into, like, the evolution of the space.
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It's, it's different now from the outside, right? Like, I'm not going to tell a client that I think they should purchase one of these until I'm kind of more asked for that type of advice. Right.
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And, and I think, I mean, you're in a unique position, right, where you're working with a number of these types of customers, and everyone's, uh, use case is a bit different.
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And I think that, you know, is a good segue into our next question here.
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And, you know, there might be some other folks that are l- out there listening that are, you know, working in-house now, and maybe they're also thinking about going out on their own.
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So I mean, could you give any insight into what it's been like to kind of make that shift? Yeah, sure. I would love to. So just to give a little backstory, right?
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I was at a great company during a great time, and I learned a ton. So I felt like I had the knowledge expertise in an area to offer a good service.
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And I think for me, what gave me some of the confidence to do it was also I knew some people that had either gone on to found their own companies or were going in early other places.
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And I thought, if I can get customers, then maybe I have a real business here around my skill set.
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I'd say maybe the one thing I feel very strongly about, and maybe if we're looking to give tips to people, is that, like, it's one thing to be good at the task.
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It's a totally other thing to run a business around it, right? So I'd run several businesses in the past, very small, like nightclubs. I had a business in real estate where we flipped houses.
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And when I mean small, like people-wise, right? There were only a few of us doing this. So I had the confidence that, like, I know how to start a business.
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So this was all, and I know I'm a good lawyer on contract negotiation. So it was really all just, can I get clients?
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So truthfully, when I first left and started this, I was at a small boutique firm to kind of test, can I get clients? And when I did and realized I'm kind of the driver here, I figured why not just do this on my own?
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So I think my advice would be, like, think more about do you have a client base or even is there someone you can talk to ahead of time, "Hey, if I start my own thing, are you willing to come with me?"
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Because in any business, I'm sure you guys will agree, this isn't about me. This is about providing a service my clients find valuable.
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So you need to make sure you have that service is one, but more importantly, you have clients. So otherwise, being really good at what you do isn't gonna work on your own. There's different ways to test it.
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Like I said, you can ask ahead of time. I think a lot of startups start that way, actually, right? They say, "Hey, I have this unique problem to a solution. If I build it, would you come with me?"
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So for me, I was lucky to tap my network and people that I'd worked with and trusted. I think that's good advice as far as will this be successful. You're taking a risk no matter what, right?
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So for me so far, I feel like it's paying off, but I think the, the inflection point was I just felt I could get clients. But then as far as, like, the actual transition, I actually love it.
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Like, I love that I'm not just being my own boss, but that I get to hold myself out to the public and my clients and market it and just however I want.
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So I feel like it, it allows me to be, like, very genuine, which not saying I couldn't do in-house or at a firm, but in a way that I don't have to worry, like, how does this reflect on somebody else or a cor- or a corporation.
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You know, it's a great perspective, right?
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And I think always, [laughs] always finding new customers and, and how you go about that is- is always, uh, one of the things that, that keeps startups or entrepreneurs up at night.
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So i- if you can kind of crack that code, I think you've got something there, right? And, and you can build on that. A- and- Yeah, I remember there's a, a good... Sorry to, but, like, a- You're good...
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a, a quote from Ray Kroc, who's, like, the founder of McDonald's. I'll probably mess this up a little bit. But the idea was, like, McDonald's isn't in... Like, can you make a better hamburger than McDonald's?
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Most people s- will say yes. But can you build a better business, right? It's not just the service. It's like, can you run the business efficiently? Yeah. And you know what? That's all. You don't know until you know.
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[laughs] For sure. Yeah, I think try it out. I would say I think most people are too afraid of failure. If it doesn't work, it's fine. You go back and get a job. That, I mean, that's how I felt. Yeah.
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Was like, I know I have opportunities in-house when I, if and when I want them. I felt confident about that. [laughs] But what else could I be doing? Let me try this. I felt if I don't do it now, maybe I never will.
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It felt like a good time because of, like I said, where my network was. So yeah, just take the leap of faith and, like, if it doesn't work out, that's okay. Yeah.
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And I think, you know, in the legal space, I think there is a unique ability...
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Well, it's, it's probably like this everywhere, but I, I do think that the legal community is a l- maybe a little bit tighter knit than, than other industries out there, and I think that ability to, to gain referrals from other lawyers that know and trust you is huge, right?
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So building your network while you're, you know, at a firm or in-house and have people that you can reach out to to say, "Hey, do you know anybody that's, you know, might be interested in my services?"
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I think that goes a f- a long way. 100%. I do a ton of that.
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Uh, to be honest, that's actually one thing I really like about having my own practice is that if I can refer somebody It's who I believe will do the best job for this client, not because that we work at the same place or...
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You know what I mean? So it, it actually freed me up in that way in a manner I really enjoy.
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And then you're right, it's like you get to network with some like-minded individuals who probably have similar clients, their skillset. Like for me, privacy is a big one that I refer out.
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I know enough to know l- like to be dangerous, but I also know when I don't know enough. "Hey, we need to hire someone. If you don't have someone already on the team or whatever, let me introduce this person."
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And I've had some great things like that, and I actually feel really good when I hear they've been working together and I'm, like, not even aware, right? It's like, "Oh, that's awesome." Yeah.
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And, you know, I think the last thing we wanted to touch on here is, is, you know, that you've recently started a podcast as well.
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And I think that our, our listeners would have some crossover, so we'd love to hear a little bit more about maybe some of the topics that you're covering, uh, the guests that are coming on, things of that nature.
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Yeah, sure. So it's just honestly a bit of a passion project in the beginning, and I thought it would be marketing for the law practice, but it's kinda turned into something else.
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So the podcast is called Empire State of Grind. The tagline is, "We interview the people building the next tech startups, the next wave of tech startups in and out of New York City."
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So it's a lot of either, like, founders or early employees at growing companies out of New York.
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And it's great 'cause we get to kinda, like, cover different topics, learn about the individuals and the company and the, the industry and some aspects of New York.
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And yeah, my goal with it, honestly, was that I love podcasts and I thought the typical startup podcast or tech podcast was interviewing founders after the company was very successful, which feels, like, both very daunting and just not realistic.
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I thought it would be more interesting to listen to, like, the stories of people who are currently doing something when the outcome's unknown.
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Ironically, they tend to have a track record of success, which is how they're starting a business, getting funding, getting in early. But what they're working on now I think is really cool.
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And one of the, the things you brought up is, like, both from the show and my law practice, right, I'm get more exposed to, like, how AI is being implemented into different businesses, which ironically does make me a better attorney around that 'cause I have a sense of why this matters, and then what some of my clients are doing and why their customers care and why they're gonna use it.
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I'd say just general advice in my world is dive into the products that the business is selling. So I don't have a computer science background. I've learned everything on the job from smart people willing to talk to me.
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And those relationships, right, have turned into, like, some of my business now.
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But that's really, I think, the way to be, like, a, a great negotiator is understanding why the people on each side care about this [laughs] and, like, where it sits in there.
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So it's just a fun way for me to, like, stay involved and learn about tech and, you know, get some other people's, uh, stories out there. Yeah, absolutely.
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And I think, you know, if any of our listeners are, are from tech startups in the New York area, I mean, definitely reach out to, uh, to Aaron and, and- Yeah... have him come to chat. We're always looking for guests.
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[laughs] You can probably relate. That is literally the hardest part of the show is scheduling guests. [laughs] So... [laughs] It is. It is. Hey, Aaron, well, well, thank you so much for joining.
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This has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you coming on to, to chat. If folks wanna connect with you or learn more about your business or the podcast, where's the best place to do that? Yeah, sure.
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So I think honestly probably LinkedIn's the best for everything. The podcast is obviously available on, like, all platforms. But me personally, Aaron Fisher on LinkedIn, you can find the things I'm up to.
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So Next Gen Law is there. And yeah, I love... I'm definitely right now, like, being an entrepreneur on these things and growing your network's important. So yeah, anyone feel free to reach out or connect.
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And like I said, I'm in networking mode all the time, so [laughs] don't feel shy. Gotta be. You gotta be in networking mode all the time.
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Hey, well, thanks again, Aaron, and thanks everybody for listening to another episode of Contract Heroes. Thank you. This episode of the Contract Heroes is sponsored by KoHo Consulting.
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KoHo helps organizations of all shapes and sizes find, implement, and manage their chosen CLM tool.
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Whether your project is buy or sell side led, KoHo can help you navigate the waters of the CLM space to make sure that you're getting a product that's going to fit like a glove years to come.
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If you'd like to learn more about KoHo, visit their website at k-o-h-o consulting.com. [outro music]
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[gentle music] You're listening to the Contract Heroes Podcast, your one-stop shop for all things contract management. And now here are your hosts, Mark and Pepe.
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Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes. Today, joining us is the principal attorney at NextGen Law and also the host of the Empire State of Grind podcast, Aaron Fisher.
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Now, let's get into the episode. Well, Aaron, thank you so much for joining us. We're really excited to be sitting down with you today to have this conversation.
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Before we flip things over to Pepe who can g- give us a little bit of a better understanding of what we're gonna be chatting about today, uh, we'd love to just get some more information on you, your background, anything you got in the works right now as well.
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Sure. So my name's Aaron Fisher. I've been in, like, the tech side of legal for about 12 years now. I worked at some startups, most notably Datadog. I was there from 2016 to 2022.
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Currently, I have my own law practice where I help tech startups with go-to-market and commercial contracting,
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and I also host a podcast called Empire State of Grind, where we learn about other tech startups in and out of New York City. That's awesome, Aaron.
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And we also have, two times already, one person that used to work at Datadog, Laurie Elrich. So that this is- Yeah... really cool to have somebody else from that work Datadog.
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And we, we've been flipping around on a lot of topics. We've been talking a- a lot a- around how do you start a CLM process, a lot of AI, because right now it's, like, the main, like...
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It's, like, the big buzzword because everybody thinks that AI is just going to- For sure... fix everything.
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But there's a lot of things that, that you gotta take into consideration before jumping to tech and not thinking about that AI just like a magic wand. So Aaron, we're really curious- For sure...
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about your experience in contract management and what's your approach in it on how to make a business more efficient, and how can stakeholders can use the information and data from their contracts to do more or to do better business decisions?
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Yeah, no, happy to talk about it. So I think the crux of, like, contract management, maybe there's two aspects.
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One is at a bigger growing company, you have a lot of information in these that I think what you're pointing to, or you can either, like, unearth some efficiencies or commonalities, and then other times you just need to look up what have we agreed to.
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So I think there's two, like, big use cases. Traditionally, especially in the startup world, it does kind of, for a while anyway, you have one person negotiating all this, so it's a little bit of, like,
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there's a human with all this knowledge. And then as the company expands and, you know, you have different people working on it, that repository of knowledge goes away unless you're having a system in place.
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So I think the upfront cost is definitely worth it. Right. Um, you kind of need to get ahead of the problem first, otherwise you kind of have too much out there to wrangle in.
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So from what I've seen as far as, like, the need for it, one is, like, risk management. So you might get asked by an executive, "Hey, what's, like, the total liabilities we've agreed to?"
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And you're not gonna know that off the top of your head, right? That's impossible. So you need something that is, you know, both knowledgeable and searchable.
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And then on the other end, I think it's helpful to see trends, especially on, like, my side, I deal mostly with customer contracts. So what are people pushing back on? What are they not?
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So you can kind of update agreement types for, like, better efficiency to just get this done, right? So you might be able to see something like we're asking for, I don't know, a certain termination right.
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Everyone pushes back on it, and we always agree to remove it. Maybe it's worth just removing and getting rid of that friction and having, like, a faster sales process.
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And that's where I think, like, AI can really help in this regard, is both seeing those type of trends and then I think easier tracking and searching of, like, a contract's database. Exactly.
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And f- like, a lot of companies when they make this mistake of just jumping directly to tech without knowing the processes and what type of information can they get from their contracts, like the example you just said, like, what's the liability you agreed on on all of your contracts?
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They're not gonna have that on top of, of their mind. So how would you approach it in a change management way?
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Because when you're doing, like, the pre-CLM process, like, we like to call it, like, phase zero, you start to talk with, uh, different stakeholders, understanding what are their problems, and trying to show them how they can be fixed by implementing certain kind of technology, like a CLM.
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But have you- Yeah... had any kind of discussion, or how can you get excited people so once you are going live on a new tech, everybody that is going to use it are excited to use it and adoption rates grow? Yeah.
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So I think for sure the barrier here, or the barricade you need to get over, the hurdle is probably a better word, is that this isn't directly tied to ROI, right?
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So you don't go, "Hey, we implement this system and it makes us X amount or saves us X amount of money." So what I've learned is, like, you do need to have some executive buy-in.
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Pr- usually it's gonna be helpful to have it on a revenue-generating side.
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So that's one thing I've always been kind of fortunate as I'm working with the revenue-generating teams and sales, that you want to tie it then to efficiency on the other end.
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So like I just said, if you can say, "Listen, it'll get us to close deals faster or more efficiently," that's a good way for the business to see value in it.
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And then I think this depends a lot too on, like, who- The executives are and what they see as valuable. Risk management, I think, is another aspect these tools can bring, and to raise that as a reason.
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I think the other side of it, which you can do, is how are you doing this now, right?
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So if you have a human being who is manually entering all this information into, you know, a system outside of a CLM, maybe like your CRM, like Salesforce or something, for key information, you can bring that up as a point of reference for, "Look, we're already spending money on this now.
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Maybe we're doing it inefficiently. I think if we implemented the right tools, we could unlock some of this potential over here," and then try to tie it to revenue.
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'Cause at least I'm maybe a bit biased 'cause I work with startups, and revenue is king. Maybe in a larger company it's tied to saving money or, like I said, the risk management aspect.
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You kinda gotta understand the driver, and it's not going to be because it would make my job as a lawyer easier. That doesn't really move the needle, so you do wanna tie it to, like, an actual business goal. Right.
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And we know, Aaron, that you work in the entertainment industry and also in the tech industry. Like, can you give us some- Yep...
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real examples what were, like, the main challenges or hurdles on the contract management process, and what were the benefits that they found out in case that they're implementing the, uh, CLM- Yeah... work, right?
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So, as you mentioned, I worked in music before tech. Various roles, but I did work at, like, one of the major record labels in-house for a bit, at, uh, Warner Music Group and Atlantic Records.
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And what's interesting is the music industry, it's kind of the opposite. They do this up front because you are going back to the contract all the time, right? So you... Especially, like, your contracts with the artists.
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I mean, a lot of my job was literally looking up contracts and seeing, like, who did we need to get approval rights from based on, uh, the licenses that we own for certain music. So hip-hop's a great example, right?
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A lot of early hip-hop was sampled from '70s R&B. If you wanna go use that song now in a movie, you gotta see who do I need to get the clearance from.
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So we literally had, like, a room of paper contracts bef- you know, this is going back to literally the 1950s, and then a computer system for the more modern ones that were searchable and whatnot.
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As far as looking across all contracts, there was no system for that, right? So it was more, like, on an individual basis you would need to look up based on a need from that particular artist or even song.
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Tech is very different, where it's not that hard, it shouldn't be anyway, to find a single contract, right? Like, you just save things in a similar format.
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If it's on OneDrive or whatever, you search it for the customer you're looking for, you should be able to find it. But the need for aggregated data is way bigger.
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So, right, in, in those companies, I think you asked, like, what's the biggest hurdle, it's kind of like I was saying, the marrying, I guess, the business efficiency with this need that probably isn't actually gonna be there until you're a bigger company.
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So you wanna see this as something you can treat right from the beginning or deal with this bigger problem later. And I'm of the belief that doesn't really matter what happened in the past.
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Like, now is always the best time to get started on the right thing to do.
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So I think the hurdle, though, is that for the type of companies I work with, and certainly at Datadog, you're building a sales process that you wanna remove legal from as much as possible.
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So it's really, like, the automation of recording that you wanna get done, right? So I'm going to enable, like, a deal desk to change certain terms in the agreement right on an order form.
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I don't want them to have to come to me. But still, how do I track those changes if it's something we wanna track?
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I'd say it is from not a risk perspective, but business tooling, so that things like automatic renewals or publicity, you may want to track what you're agreeing to with customers so you have a searchable database of what customers can we reference, do I wanna send automatic reminders ahead of an auto-renewal based on either what we've agreed to or state law regarding this.
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So there's a lot of reason to do it. I think my experience with startups in general is that they care far more, and they should, about closing business than, like, these problems that are five years down the road. Right.
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You know, I think you brought up a couple interesting points there, Aaron. And in different industries, right, it's that legacy data is stored in different places. But I think at the end of- Yeah...
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the day, the issue that everyone is facing is getting those, all of those documents into a single location once they start to look at migrating from whatever le- legacy type of system that be, whether it's stuff stored in filing cabinets or a OneDrive or SharePoint, and moving to something that's, you know, moving to a s- a full-blown CLM.
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In the past, have you been a part of any of those migrations to a CLM, and any tips there for folks that are looking to make that move? Yes and no.
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So this is something, like, if you are future-looking, you know this is an issue you have to deal with, even when you're in a small department.
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Not so much in music, but in tech, in legal you're, you should always be understaffed. Until you're a big company, this, uh, should be a lean department running that way.
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So I think the truth is when I was building a department, the tech wasn't there to solve this problem that way, right? We're talking almost 10 years ago.
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So we hired a very smart human being to kinda help build this out, both looking backward and going forward. So we had all our contracts in a database. "Can you update this?"
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We had then changed it over, like I was saying, into a CRM-like input, but it was still manual.
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So after we'd close a negotiated deal, we'd update the terms with that specific customer so it did live in, like, a searchable way. But to be honest, it wasn't the most efficient.
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And yes, I would sit in on, like, meetings with, you know, different vendors for this. At the time, I didn't see a solution that was honestly hyper-focused on this problem.
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They all seemed to want to negotiate for me or make that the value proposition, which I still don't really see [laughs] as that valuable for me, to be honest.
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Whereas the one we're talking about, I think, is the tech is there now, like generative AI should be able to pull out this type of information from agreements and catalog it.
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And I've actually had a client that, like, made an internal tool for this recently, and I've been using it, right? Like, I get asked to negotiate a agreement with an existing client.
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I can easily find their old MSA in the, uh, archives. It's pretty cool. So I think there will be like a pretty quick shift here. Obviously, you guys are more tied into, like, the evolution of the space.
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It's, it's different now from the outside, right? Like, I'm not going to tell a client that I think they should purchase one of these until I'm kind of more asked for that type of advice. Right.
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And, and I think, I mean, you're in a unique position, right, where you're working with a number of these types of customers, and everyone's, uh, use case is a bit different.
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And I think that, you know, is a good segue into our next question here.
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And, you know, there might be some other folks that are l- out there listening that are, you know, working in-house now, and maybe they're also thinking about going out on their own.
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So I mean, could you give any insight into what it's been like to kind of make that shift? Yeah, sure. I would love to. So just to give a little backstory, right?
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I was at a great company during a great time, and I learned a ton. So I felt like I had the knowledge expertise in an area to offer a good service.
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And I think for me, what gave me some of the confidence to do it was also I knew some people that had either gone on to found their own companies or were going in early other places.
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And I thought, if I can get customers, then maybe I have a real business here around my skill set.
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I'd say maybe the one thing I feel very strongly about, and maybe if we're looking to give tips to people, is that, like, it's one thing to be good at the task.
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It's a totally other thing to run a business around it, right? So I'd run several businesses in the past, very small, like nightclubs. I had a business in real estate where we flipped houses.
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And when I mean small, like people-wise, right? There were only a few of us doing this. So I had the confidence that, like, I know how to start a business.
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So this was all, and I know I'm a good lawyer on contract negotiation. So it was really all just, can I get clients?
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So truthfully, when I first left and started this, I was at a small boutique firm to kind of test, can I get clients? And when I did and realized I'm kind of the driver here, I figured why not just do this on my own?
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So I think my advice would be, like, think more about do you have a client base or even is there someone you can talk to ahead of time, "Hey, if I start my own thing, are you willing to come with me?"
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Because in any business, I'm sure you guys will agree, this isn't about me. This is about providing a service my clients find valuable.
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So you need to make sure you have that service is one, but more importantly, you have clients. So otherwise, being really good at what you do isn't gonna work on your own. There's different ways to test it.
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Like I said, you can ask ahead of time. I think a lot of startups start that way, actually, right? They say, "Hey, I have this unique problem to a solution. If I build it, would you come with me?"
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So for me, I was lucky to tap my network and people that I'd worked with and trusted. I think that's good advice as far as will this be successful. You're taking a risk no matter what, right?
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So for me so far, I feel like it's paying off, but I think the, the inflection point was I just felt I could get clients. But then as far as, like, the actual transition, I actually love it.
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Like, I love that I'm not just being my own boss, but that I get to hold myself out to the public and my clients and market it and just however I want.
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So I feel like it, it allows me to be, like, very genuine, which not saying I couldn't do in-house or at a firm, but in a way that I don't have to worry, like, how does this reflect on somebody else or a cor- or a corporation.
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You know, it's a great perspective, right?
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And I think always, [laughs] always finding new customers and, and how you go about that is- is always, uh, one of the things that, that keeps startups or entrepreneurs up at night.
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So i- if you can kind of crack that code, I think you've got something there, right? And, and you can build on that. A- and- Yeah, I remember there's a, a good... Sorry to, but, like, a- You're good...
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a, a quote from Ray Kroc, who's, like, the founder of McDonald's. I'll probably mess this up a little bit. But the idea was, like, McDonald's isn't in... Like, can you make a better hamburger than McDonald's?
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Most people s- will say yes. But can you build a better business, right? It's not just the service. It's like, can you run the business efficiently? Yeah. And you know what? That's all. You don't know until you know.
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[laughs] For sure. Yeah, I think try it out. I would say I think most people are too afraid of failure. If it doesn't work, it's fine. You go back and get a job. That, I mean, that's how I felt. Yeah.
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Was like, I know I have opportunities in-house when I, if and when I want them. I felt confident about that. [laughs] But what else could I be doing? Let me try this. I felt if I don't do it now, maybe I never will.
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It felt like a good time because of, like I said, where my network was. So yeah, just take the leap of faith and, like, if it doesn't work out, that's okay. Yeah.
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And I think, you know, in the legal space, I think there is a unique ability...
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Well, it's, it's probably like this everywhere, but I, I do think that the legal community is a l- maybe a little bit tighter knit than, than other industries out there, and I think that ability to, to gain referrals from other lawyers that know and trust you is huge, right?
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So building your network while you're, you know, at a firm or in-house and have people that you can reach out to to say, "Hey, do you know anybody that's, you know, might be interested in my services?"
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I think that goes a f- a long way. 100%. I do a ton of that.
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Uh, to be honest, that's actually one thing I really like about having my own practice is that if I can refer somebody It's who I believe will do the best job for this client, not because that we work at the same place or...
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You know what I mean? So it, it actually freed me up in that way in a manner I really enjoy.
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And then you're right, it's like you get to network with some like-minded individuals who probably have similar clients, their skillset. Like for me, privacy is a big one that I refer out.
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I know enough to know l- like to be dangerous, but I also know when I don't know enough. "Hey, we need to hire someone. If you don't have someone already on the team or whatever, let me introduce this person."
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And I've had some great things like that, and I actually feel really good when I hear they've been working together and I'm, like, not even aware, right? It's like, "Oh, that's awesome." Yeah.
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And, you know, I think the last thing we wanted to touch on here is, is, you know, that you've recently started a podcast as well.
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And I think that our, our listeners would have some crossover, so we'd love to hear a little bit more about maybe some of the topics that you're covering, uh, the guests that are coming on, things of that nature.
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Yeah, sure. So it's just honestly a bit of a passion project in the beginning, and I thought it would be marketing for the law practice, but it's kinda turned into something else.
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So the podcast is called Empire State of Grind. The tagline is, "We interview the people building the next tech startups, the next wave of tech startups in and out of New York City."
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So it's a lot of either, like, founders or early employees at growing companies out of New York.
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And it's great 'cause we get to kinda, like, cover different topics, learn about the individuals and the company and the, the industry and some aspects of New York.
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And yeah, my goal with it, honestly, was that I love podcasts and I thought the typical startup podcast or tech podcast was interviewing founders after the company was very successful, which feels, like, both very daunting and just not realistic.
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I thought it would be more interesting to listen to, like, the stories of people who are currently doing something when the outcome's unknown.
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Ironically, they tend to have a track record of success, which is how they're starting a business, getting funding, getting in early. But what they're working on now I think is really cool.
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And one of the, the things you brought up is, like, both from the show and my law practice, right, I'm get more exposed to, like, how AI is being implemented into different businesses, which ironically does make me a better attorney around that 'cause I have a sense of why this matters, and then what some of my clients are doing and why their customers care and why they're gonna use it.
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I'd say just general advice in my world is dive into the products that the business is selling. So I don't have a computer science background. I've learned everything on the job from smart people willing to talk to me.
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And those relationships, right, have turned into, like, some of my business now.
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But that's really, I think, the way to be, like, a, a great negotiator is understanding why the people on each side care about this [laughs] and, like, where it sits in there.
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So it's just a fun way for me to, like, stay involved and learn about tech and, you know, get some other people's, uh, stories out there. Yeah, absolutely.
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And I think, you know, if any of our listeners are, are from tech startups in the New York area, I mean, definitely reach out to, uh, to Aaron and, and- Yeah... have him come to chat. We're always looking for guests.
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[laughs] You can probably relate. That is literally the hardest part of the show is scheduling guests. [laughs] So... [laughs] It is. It is. Hey, Aaron, well, well, thank you so much for joining.
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This has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you coming on to, to chat. If folks wanna connect with you or learn more about your business or the podcast, where's the best place to do that? Yeah, sure.
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So I think honestly probably LinkedIn's the best for everything. The podcast is obviously available on, like, all platforms. But me personally, Aaron Fisher on LinkedIn, you can find the things I'm up to.
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So Next Gen Law is there. And yeah, I love... I'm definitely right now, like, being an entrepreneur on these things and growing your network's important. So yeah, anyone feel free to reach out or connect.
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And like I said, I'm in networking mode all the time, so [laughs] don't feel shy. Gotta be. You gotta be in networking mode all the time.
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Hey, well, thanks again, Aaron, and thanks everybody for listening to another episode of Contract Heroes. Thank you. This episode of the Contract Heroes is sponsored by KoHo Consulting.
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KoHo helps organizations of all shapes and sizes find, implement, and manage their chosen CLM tool.
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Whether your project is buy or sell side led, KoHo can help you navigate the waters of the CLM space to make sure that you're getting a product that's going to fit like a glove years to come.
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If you'd like to learn more about KoHo, visit their website at k-o-h-o consulting.com. [outro music]
