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Welcome to Consider the Constitution, the podcast that cuts through the noise and provides insight into constitutional issues that directly affect every American.
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Hosted by Dr.
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Katie Crawford Lackey and featuring interviews with constitutional scholars, policy and subject matter experts, heritage professionals, and legal practitioners, we examine the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.
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Consider the Constitution is brought to you by the Robert H.
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Smith Center for the Constitution at James Madison's Montpelier.
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Hello and welcome back to Consider the Constitution.
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I'm your host, Dr.
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Katie Crawford Lackey, with James Madison's Montpelier.
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When we think about James Madison, we often jump from the Revolution to the Constitutional Convention, from a young Madison to the father of the Constitution.
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But there's an important chapter in between.
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The years when the promises of independence collided with realities of governing a new nation.
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This is a fascinating period of experimentation, of uncertainty, and transformation, one in which Americans debated the meaning of independence, the structure of government, and who would be included in this new political order.
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To help us explore this pivotal chapter in Madison's life and the broader challenges of the post-revolutionary era, I'm joined in the studio today by Dr.
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Frank Cogliano, Professor of American History at the University of Edinburgh.
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He is the author of A Revolutionary Friendship: Washington, Jefferson, and the American Republic.
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And Thomas Jefferson Survives with Peter S.
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Onaff.
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Dr.
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Cogliano is the co-host of the Whiskey Rebellion Podcast.
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Welcome, Frank.
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It is wonderful to have you in the studio today.
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Thank you, Katie.
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I'm thrilled to be here.
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Thanks for having me.
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Well, there's so much we could talk about.
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Your scholarship really covers a broad range.
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So we're narrowing it down to this kind of chapter in American history today.
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And before we discuss how the revolution affected and shaped Madison, we should note that this is not a singular experience or a single story.
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The American Revolution meant different things to different people and different groups.
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I'm wondering if you can talk about those competing experiences in terms of this broader perspective that the founders were operating in.
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For example, how did indigenous people or Native nations, enslaved communities, women, a loyalist, you know, all these other folks that we sometimes don't talk about?
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What's going on there at this revolutionary moment?
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Yeah, thanks, Katie.
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That's a really important question.
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To some extent, it's the important question.
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Believe it or not, the American Revolution was more than the founding fathers.
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And I know you know that, and I know that colleagues here at Montpelier know that.
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But sometimes we have to remind certainly book buyers of that.
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And I'm guilty of this myself as you use some of the titles you kindly mentioned were focus on founders.
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But the American Revolution is about creating an independent country and an independent people.
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And that includes everybody.
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And not everybody on this continent was affected, or this part of the continent was affected the same way by the events between 1775 and the ratification of the Constitution in 1788.
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Some people were included and some people were not.
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And some people benefited from the revolution in American independence, and some people did not.
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You mentioned a number of groups, and we could discuss all of them at great length.
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Let's briefly take some of them.
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So enslaved people.
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This is the great American dilemma, as Gunnar Mirdahl said more than 80 years ago.
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Look, the Declaration of Independence says all men are created equal.
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How do we reconcile that with the fact that the man who wrote that enslaved over 600 people over the course of his lifetime, Thomas Jefferson?
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And at least 200 at the time he wrote those words.
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Well, on one hand we don't, and and and we can't.
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On the other, if one reads Jefferson's draft of the Declaration, for example, there's a clause in there in the long list of crimes attributed to George III that is about the slave trade, the transatlantic slave trade.
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And in that clause, Jefferson refers to the people victimized by the slave trade as having the rights and liberties of a distant people.
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The implication of that, this was cut by Congress, but the implication of it is the rights to life, liberty, and happiness and the pursuit of happiness that the Declaration refers to in its second paragraph applies to everyone.
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It's more universal than sometimes we have read it in the past.
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So I think that's interesting.
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Congress cut that out, and that suggests that for the at least the framers of the Declaration of Independence, they saw a limit there.
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But even at the time there were people, including Jefferson in that moment, who had a more capacious view of that.
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So I think that's interesting.
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And more importantly, because this isn't about a few uh uh elite individuals, enslaved people, their allies were making this case in 1776, saying, hang on a minute.
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If it says all men are created equal, what does that mean?
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So I and and this includes us, and they used it as a basis for demanding their liberty, and that's incredibly important.
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When it comes to indigenous people, the picture is more complicated, but in some respects there's no optimistic outcome here.
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So the the the uh declaration, I'm quoting the declaration's words not mine, makes reference to merciless Indian savages that the British are mobilizing against the people fighting for independence.
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And Colin Callaway, the great historian at Dartmouth, who's written about this, reminds us that in 1776, North America was a great indigenous continent.
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The people who were rebelling, this little uh thing going on in the eastern seaboard is limited when we see it in continental terms.
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Nonetheless, the Revolutionary War itself and the settlement that comes out of it largely excludes Native peoples, and to some extent, the republic that emerges from it will be premised on expanding at the expense of Native peoples.
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I'm simplifying a complicated story here.
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We could talk about this in another episode if you want.
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So, in that perspective, we see limitations.
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You mentioned women.
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The uh all men are created equal.
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Now, this is gendered language, we know this.
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In the 18th century, people used men to mean humanity.
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On the other hand, they didn't say humanity.
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They didn't say mankind, they said men.
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And the political settlement that comes out of the revolution largely excludes women, although we do see improvements for women in certain areas when it comes to property rights, divorce, some educational improvements.
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These are limited by region and class in many cases, so I don't want to overstate them.
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But it's worth noting that when the Seneca Falls Convention met in 1848 to adopt the Declaration of Sentiments, what did it do?
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It reworked the Declaration of Independence to assert that all men and women are created equal.
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The other group we need to consider is common people.
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And and in this, I and the um uh uh uh recently deceased Gordon Wood made this argument quite powerfully in the uh Radicalism of the American Revolution, his landmark book from 30 odd years ago.
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The empowerment of common people, especially common white men, is not something that we necessarily appreciate the significance of, but their empowerment is a consequence of the revolution and the fight for independence.
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And that is a radical development.
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And I think we've lost our appreciation for the significance of that.
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In part because, let's face it, we've been in a country for the past 250 years where the white men have had a pretty good run of things, and white men exercising power doesn't excite us as a radical step.
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But given the way pre-independent society was oriented and colonial society was oriented, that is an important development.
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Well, I appreciate you tackling that question because it was a very there's a lot to this answer, and it could be an entire series on its own.
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But I do want to note something that you mentioned.
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For example, Native nations, indigenous people, that is not just a homogenous group.
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Obviously, there's a lot of complexity depending on not just individuals, but different tribes and all of that.
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Same with enslaved communities, same with women.
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So that's a really good point that you make.
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And this is really important, the context that you frame it around.
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You know, we think white men gaining, you know, independence doesn't seem quite radical to us today.
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But at that time, it's really unusual what they're doing.
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And we shouldn't lose sight of that.
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That's right.
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That's right.
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Can I add one thing that I that I neglected?
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Let's not forget people who didn't support independence.
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There were lots of loyalists, including from all of these groups, but yeah, almost every social group, this revolution divided people.
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Just as it created a new national identity, it also excluded.
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Once you start identifying, once you start defining a national identity, you're creating boundaries.
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And there were people, some of the same social class as the people we call founding fathers, but there were also a lot of women, indigenous enslaved people, common people, who opposed independence.
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And they were Americans.
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They were also British.
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It's a this is complicated.
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We're sorting all this out.
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I've long thought one of the problems with this, and I say this as somebody who teaches in the UK, because we call it the American Revolution, and because it's our founding moment as a nation and a national and it's the foundation of our national identity, we miss the transatlantic nature of this and the fact that this there were people in Britain who supported the Patriot cause, and there were people here in North America who supported Britain until the end, to the extent that 60,000 of them went into exile at the end of the war.
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And far more than that who didn't have the means to go into exile had to reconcile themselves to the new regime.
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But we we shouldn't forget them either.
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Aaron Powell The revolution is so complex and nuanced, and it really is kind of a global event that affects, if not at that moment, down the line.
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Aaron Powell That's right.
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That's right.
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And it will transform the British Empire for one thing.
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I mean, Maya Jasanoff in her book Liberties Exiles has written about this.
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She she looked at the loyalist exiles and talked about how there was a spirit of 1783 along with the spirit of 1776.
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And these exiles took American notions, if you will.
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I'm using air quotes, even though this is an audio podcast, so that's very effective.
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I realize, took American notions of rights and liberties with them and helped reform and transform the British Empire, and they end up all over the place.
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They end up in London, but they end up in India and South Asia and in Australia.
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And so it is a transformative event in all kinds of ways because the British Empire was a global empire.
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And so this event that fractured it couldn't help but have global implications.
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And even for those, I'll use James Madison as an example, who eventually supported the American Revolution.
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You know, he is born into a world that is not at that, you know, revolutionary moment.
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And, you know, he grows up, goes to school, College of New Jersey, today Princeton.
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We know that he's learning about enlightenment thought.
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We've talked on the podcast about that before.
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But when Madison returns to Montpelier in the 1770s, what draws him into politics at this pivotal moment?
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And we know he's kind of a bookish intellectual.
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He's not known for his like military leadership.
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But what are the issues that animate him at this really pivotal moment?
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I think uh I mean, I'm glad you mentioned his time at Princeton.
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And uh, you know, he studied under John Witherspoon.
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And John Witherspoon was a Scot who'd emigrated to become the president of the College of New Jersey.
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He transformed the curriculum.
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And the curriculum they're teaching at at Princeton when Madison is studying there is very much a kind of Scottish moral sense curriculum that emphasizes what during the Enlightenment was called the Science of Man Project, which was trying to understand humanity, and I think they are using man to mean humanity in the in this particular context, dedicated to the proposition that if we apply reason to our problems, we can improve, we can understand, come to under a deeper understanding of the world and improve it and solve its problems.
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And I think that that outlook, Madison really embraced that and imbued him as he returned from Princeton.
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And one of the problems that was confronting the people in his world was the question about British rule in the colonies.
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And I think Witherspoon is a signatory to the Declaration of Independence, Witherspoon will become a patriot.
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Witherspoon is a mentor to Madison.
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I'm not saying it's all down to Witherspoon.
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However, I think that when he returned to Montpelier, those were the ideas that were in his head.
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He was a very, very smart guy, I don't have to tell you this, and very, very well read.
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He did his homework, and I think he was committed to that political project.
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And it was an outgrowth of that.
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Also, not all, but many of his class in this region were committed patriots, as well as Thomas Jefferson being a very good example down the road, and George Mason and others.
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And so I think that's also his peer group is on board with this as well.
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Not all of them, but I think that that's important too.
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And we know he's having these conversations with the folks he's at school with, people in this area.
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And when he returns to Montpelier, he is participating in the revolution.
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First, you know, he serves on the Orange County Committee of Safety.
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He helps secure stronger protections for religious liberty in Virginia's Declaration of Rights.
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We know freedom of conscience is a really big sticking point for him.
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But right after that pivotal moment in 1776, what's happening next?
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And what role is he playing from 1776 up to 1783 while this fighting is going on?
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Yeah, he does not, I mean, he has a notional um militia commission, but he doesn't serve in the military.
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He's does not take a prominent military role during the war.
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He's not well suited to it.
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That's not his skill set.
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He's always described as sickly.
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He's not necessarily in good health.
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He always thinks he's dying, if you know, and he's gonna live a very long life.
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That's not playing to his strength.
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He does something really important, I think, in May of 1776, and you referred to that.
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He's a member, so he starts in the Orange Committee of Safety, and then he moves on to the Fifth Virginia Convention.
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Declaring independence, everybody knows that declaring independence is gonna necessitate drafting constitutions and new laws.
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And if the military uh area is not his strength, constitutions are his strength, and we're gonna see that, aren't we?
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And so he takes a hand, not the leading role, but an important role, especially with regard to questions of religion, in helping to draft the Virginia Constitution of 1776.
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He then serves on the Governor's Council in 1779.
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He's in Jefferson's Governor's Council.
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The governor created by the Virginia Constitution is actually quite weak, and the council has a lot of authority, but he's seeing how frankly ineffective the Virginia Constitution of 1776 is when the British invade the state in 1779 and 1780 and 81.
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He's then in Congress, and I think this is important.
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He's in Congress for the latter stages of the war.
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And that's a time when Congress is somewhat ineffective.
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The war is winding down, but there's an unwillingness on the part of many in Congress to continue to support funding the Army, for example, and paying the soldiers.
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He gets a very close-up view of what's wrong with the current arrangement.
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And we do need to temper this somewhat.
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And there's a sense in which the winners write the story, right?
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Because what can be said for the Articles of Confederation is the Patriots declare independence and win the war war of independence under that government.
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So it wasn't a complete failure.
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On the other hand, by the time that Madison gets to Congress, it's pretty ineffective or its deficiencies are becoming clear.
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And he's aware of that.
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And he will come, therefore, to believe that reform is necessary.
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Reform of the government of the United States will be essential as he sees it.
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Your scholarship has focused on the relationship between key founders.
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So we referenced the book that you wrote, The Relationship Between Washington and Jefferson.
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And we often think of those names obviously as being associated with the American Revolution.
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Although I think we tend to associate this party that's happening, you know, 250th is because of this declaration of independence.
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And that's the flashpoint moment.
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But Madison, as you noted, drafting this Virginia constitution with several other delegates or a number of other delegates is a really important part of this story.
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So as we try to expand our understanding of his relationship with these key men, what does that look like at the time of the revolution and then beyond that?
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Thanks.
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That's a good question.
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One thing I would say is, okay, we're past July 4th, 2026.
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Clock's ticking now for you, Katie, because you you've got 11 years and we're doing the 250th of the Constitution.
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However, I mean, Madison's relationships with both Jefferson and Washington are quite interesting and very productive, actually.
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Madison and Jefferson will work together, or their friendship will grow during the war, but it really takes off after the war, especially when Jefferson returns from France in 1789 to become Secretary of State under Washington.
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And Madison is emerges as the leader of the opposition.
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So this is after the Constitution, but they're close and in close contact even while Jefferson's in France.
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So Jefferson spends a lot of time buying books and sending them to Madison to help him prepare for the Constitutional Convention.
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Madison is the guy, I always tell my students this.
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He's not just the guy who does the required reading, he's the guy who does the suggested reading.
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And then goes to office hours and says, Do you have any more for me to read?
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And so Jefferson enables him to use contemporary language in doing this and sends him the stuff to read.
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So they're collaborating and talking about what's wrong with the country as they see it, and they don't always agree on this during the 1780s.
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In fact, when Madison sends Jefferson the draft of the Constitution in the autumn of 1787, he's very pleased with it.
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This has been a hard work over the summer.
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And Jefferson sort of says, meh, it's fine.
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He said, you know, I'm worried the president can become king.
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And where's the Bill of Rights?
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And he he's very lukewarm.
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And Madison says, you know, this was hard.
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And then Jefferson changes his tune and eventually becomes a kind of lukewarm supporter of the Constitution.
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When Jefferson returns, he and Madison, their relationship really develops because they become close political allies in the growing opposition to the Federalist Party and the partisanship of the 1790s.
00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:35.279
And that friendship is probably the deepest political and possibly personal friendship each has as an adult.
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:47.519
They are very, very close to the extent that Jefferson sleeps here and Madison's goes to Monticello, and they, you know, they know each other well and uh will do for the rest of their lives.
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.279
And Madison serves as uh Jefferson Secretary of State.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:59.200
Jefferson, who's about a decade older, will act as a sort of conseliere to him during Madison's presidency when Jefferson is notionally retired.
00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:03.759
During their retirements, they see each other a lot, they correspond a lot.
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.720
Jefferson famously says to Madison, who's younger than he is, you know, take care of me when dead.
00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:18.799
Which means look after our project and not just my reputation in a kind of va vain way, but also like what we've been working towards together, and that's important.
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:31.039
So that relationship is rock solid, and we can chart that Madison's relationship with Washington is really fascinating to me because they collaborate in really interesting ways.
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:49.599
They attend the um the so-called Annapolis Convention in 1786, which is called for the states around the Potomac to talk about boundary issues, but it's really they meet in Annapolis to discuss reform of the Articles Confederation.
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:56.799
Now, what happens is they only get a handful of it's about a dozen guys from five states come to this thing and they meet in a bar.
00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:01.440
I've always thought this is an interesting trick that they've designed they've called this the Annapolis Convention.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.880
Twelve guys in a bar talking about overthrowing the government is not a convention.
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:06.480
It's something, but it's not a convention.
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:14.160
But anyway, but they're there and they support this and they propose a meeting the following spring that will become the Constitutional Convention.
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.160
I don't want to cast any aspersions on that.
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:18.160
That happens in a council chamber.
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:22.640
And that's not an illegal gathering, but it's extra legal.
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:30.000
It's basically 50 plus elite private citizens getting together, all men, to talk about reforming the government.
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:31.119
They're going to do more than that.
00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:34.079
They're going to propose a totally new frame of government.
00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:37.759
And Washington and Madison are the two most important people there.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:46.240
Madison because he comes with the plan, and Washington because he has the authority to give this thing credibility.
00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:52.240
And they know, they each know and respect the other's role in advance of this.
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:53.839
And that's really, really important.
00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:56.319
And that's a product of their friendship.
00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.839
And they're not as close as Jefferson and Madison will be.
00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:08.880
Be, and they will become estranged in the 1790s, not to the degree that Washington and Jefferson became estranged, but because they're going to diverge over politics.
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:14.799
But the I I think Madison respected Washington greatly.
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:22.480
And Washington, who was the great man of the age, especially in military matters, didn't say to Madison, well, you didn't serve in the Army.
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:29.279
He recognized Madison Washington was very good at recognizing the talents of others, especially those he didn't possess.
00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:34.240
And he re and um Washington was one thing I learned in doing the Washington book is Washington's no dummy.
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:37.839
You read a lot of Washington, you c you you realize this guy is very smart.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:41.920
He's not as well educated as he didn't benefit from going to college.
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:46.240
He's not as well educated, he doesn't read multiple languages like Madison and Jefferson do.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:52.079
Um he can't, you know, opine about philosophy to the same extent they like to do with each other, all that kind of stuff.
00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:53.359
But he's not stupid.
00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:57.759
But he recognizes Madison's abilities and he he really encourages those.
00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:05.200
So I think that relationship is to some extent more interesting than the Jefferson-Madison one, because we know the Jefferson-Madison one like their friends, their political allies.
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:06.160
We get that.
00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:14.720
The Madison-Washington relationship is really interesting to me because of its bringing two disparate people together to work together um quite productively.
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:16.880
That is really fascinating.
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:28.640
We do have a sense that Madison and Jefferson are really aligned on a lot of their shared thoughts, beliefs, vision for the country, and Washington being a little bit of an outlier in terms of their line of thinking.
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:34.400
It's helpful to hear about those relationships and how they change.
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:44.880
Does that tell us anything, the way that their relationships change, does it tell us anything about the changing political landscape from late 1770s through the 1790s?
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:45.759
Yes.
00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:46.240
Yes.
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:48.640
A couple things I would say in response to that, Katie.
00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:51.680
One is people's views change over time.
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:55.599
We we assume people are fixed in amber and like this is their view.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:58.000
So we say, well, Madison believed this.
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.640
Well, or Jefferson believed that.
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:02.480
And yeah, that's often true.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:16.960
We have the record, but that also means you know, so how do we explain Madison, the primary author and one of the architects of the Constitution, also collaborating with Jefferson on the Virginia-Kentucky resolutions a decade later?
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:21.039
Now, one can say, oh well, he what a hypocrite.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:21.759
No.
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:35.440
One can also say, okay, now that he's seen the government operate for a decade and it went in ways that he hadn't expected, he's offering a what he hopes is a constitutional solution to the challenges posed by overreach by the Federalists.
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:37.200
So it's not hypocrisy.
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:39.839
People change in light of experience.
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:47.039
And what we see, particularly with regard to the time period you just suggested, is the revolutionaries are all together in the 1770s.
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.640
I exaggerate, but let's say, for the sake of argument, let's accept that.
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:58.720
And then once they achieve independence and adopt this constitution, they fall out with each other, and we end up with political parties emerging.
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:06.559
Now, this is one rejoinder to people who think, oh, the founders were chosen by God and they, you know, you know, they're perfect.
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:09.519
They didn't think political parties were going to be a problem.
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:22.240
So before we say, let's be governed by everything they thought, and there were political parties almost from the moment they were done with the Constitution, the Bill of Rights wasn't even dry yet, and there were political parties emerging.
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:23.839
And they didn't see that coming.
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:31.519
And so they're going to change, and because they're disagreeing about how a republic should operate, they actually disagree about quite profound things in important ways.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:33.599
And there's also hardball politics.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:38.240
The 1790s are fascinating and very entertaining, but they think the stakes are really high.
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:54.880
And so people who were united together, like John Adams and Jefferson, they were together writing the Declaration in 1776, they were together as diplomats in the 1780s in in Europe, and they're going to become estranged over politics in the 1790s.
00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:56.960
That's not necessarily hypocrisy.
00:25:56.960 --> 00:25:58.319
It's life.
00:25:58.319 --> 00:25:59.920
You're very young, Katie.
00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:00.799
I'm quite old.
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:04.640
I don't have exactly the same views now that I might have had 20 or 30 years ago.
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:05.759
It's the human condition.
00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:08.400
Aaron Powell Frank, are you saying we change our minds about things?
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:10.400
I am, I am, Katie.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:15.440
And in hopefully in light of circumstances and actually considering the circumstances.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:16.720
Yeah, occasionally we do.
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:18.880
And we need to give people the space to do that.
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:38.000
I have heard criticism of Madison about him, you know, being more pro-strong central government and then sort of pulling back from that as the years go on, favoring more of states having their own power, broadening state power versus central kind of federal power.
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:41.440
And I think it's actually a credit to Madison.
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:48.400
He's very committed to his beliefs, but at the same time, he is willing to change his mind given logic, the argument.
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:54.720
And I don't know anything more human than that, being open to new ideas and conversation.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:55.599
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: That's right.
00:26:55.599 --> 00:27:10.000
And so I, you know, again, he's the main author of the Virginia resolutions in 1798, which the Virginia legislature adopts at his urging and the urging of Jefferson in response to the Alien and Sedition Acts.
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.480
Well, he didn't anticipate the Alien and Sedition Acts when they were drafting the Constitution of the Bill of Rights.
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:20.000
And he feels that the Federalists under John Adams have gone too far, and this is meant to be a remedy to that.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:29.759
And the Virginia resolutions, but more so the Kentucky resolutions, which Jefferson authored, and here's another area where they collaborated closely.
00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:34.480
There's an implication, at least, of what will come to be we'll call states' rights.
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:39.440
Some have said that lays the foundation for nullification later, which of course anticipates the Civil War.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:54.319
They don't know that in 1798, and I don't think that's what they intended in 1798, but it's an example of what you just said so eloquently, which is they're trying to find a way to solve a problem that they hadn't anticipated, which is what you do in light of changing circumstances.
00:27:54.319 --> 00:28:01.119
I think the Constitution was always meant to be a means to an end, but the end was Republican government and preserving liberty.
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:05.119
And you know, that was what the revolution was about as far as they were concerned.
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:07.920
And they wanted the Constitution to work.
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.680
Jefferson famously said about the Constitutions in general.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:16.400
We don't expect a man to wear the coat he wore when he was a boy.
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:20.799
We shouldn't be governed by our barbarous ancestors, and he means them themselves.
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:28.720
In other words, it's amendable for a reason you need not you change willy-nilly at a whim, but you do sometimes need to change with circumstances.
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:34.400
And I think Madison, who was so instrumental in drafting the Constitution, would have agreed with that.
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:38.559
That's a great example of the alien and sedition acts about Madison.
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:47.279
I don't want to say changing his mind, but it's I don't want to say easy, but agreeing, yes, we need to be independent from the British Crown.
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:48.240
That's one thing.
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.279
But then how that actually gets put into practice is very different.
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:56.799
And I think that's where some of these individuals diverge in terms of their vision.
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:00.720
Yes, if I can quote the there's a musical Hamilton you might have heard of.
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.559
I uh it's it's not well known.
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.359
Winning is easy, governing is hard.
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:06.960
Exactly.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:22.640
And bringing the conversation back to this 250th anniversary that we're celebrating in 2026, what aspects of Madison's revolutionary experience and political thought deserve greater attention?
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:27.920
Are there parts of his story that are broadly overlooked and misunderstood?
00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:28.799
Yes.
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:34.160
I mean, I think um, you know, Madison's gonna have his moment 11 years from now.
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:36.000
We are getting ready for it.
00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:36.640
I hope so.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:37.759
I'm happy to help you.
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:49.279
But I think his commitment to religious liberty is really, really important and really bears thinking about in the current moment as we reflect on 250 years of this republic.
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:53.119
And in May of 1776, that was on his mind.
00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:59.440
That was one of his contributions to the Virginia Bill of Rights or Declaration of Rights and the Constitution.
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:01.279
And it laid the, it helped lay the groundwork.
00:30:01.279 --> 00:30:03.680
And again, this is something that he and Jefferson collaborated on.
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:18.319
Jefferson will um draft the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom in 1777, but it's Madison who's going to usher it through the House of Delegates in 1786 after he had written his famous Remonstrance on Religion in 1785.
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:29.359
I think Madison's commitment, I mean, Madison's constitutional thought is incredibly important, but I think his commitment to religious liberty for all, he's not anti-religion.
00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:33.200
Disestablishment is not meant to attack people of faith.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:35.519
It's actually meant to protect people of faith.
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:42.880
And I think that commitment is one of the things we ought to be celebrating today on the at the semi-quincentennial.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:59.200
And when we, you know, Americans or people across the world, when we think about 250 years now looking ahead, so you know, we've celebrated this moment, but as you kind of implied, it is a moment to to be reflective, but then to look forward.
00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:14.319
What do you hope the public, you know, listeners of our show take away from that revolutionary period, not just about Madison, but broadly the founders, the creation of the American Republic itself?
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:26.480
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men and women are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:28.960
That's a heck of a sentence.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:34.640
And as a premise for a nation, it's not bad.
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:41.599
We need to make sure we live up to those words and that we make sure they apply to all Americans.
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:44.799
We began this conversation by talking about who wasn't included.
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:52.319
Happily, we have a more broad approach when it comes to citizenship, I hope, and we should include everyone in those words.
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:55.279
I think let's live up to those words.
00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:57.519
That's my most sincere hope.
00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:04.160
The other thing that I think we need to learn how to do or relearn how to do is to disagree without hating each other.
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:07.519
We're in a polarized political moment.
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:11.680
Everybody, you know, it doesn't matter where you are on the political spectrum, everybody says that.
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:14.559
And I think we see that.
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:21.839
There will be a moment after this one, and we all have to p wake up with a hangover and decide to get along.
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:26.960
And finding out how to live up to those principles in an agreeable way.
00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:29.119
Not that we're always going to agree.
00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:31.279
We're never going to agree completely.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:35.519
But we have to stop thinking about the people we disagree with as our enemies.
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:38.319
That is a really powerful point.
00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:43.359
And I think the point of a democratic republic is to have people of different ideas.
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:50.400
Madison and his ideas on factions and the importance of having different people, different ideas coming together.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:53.359
It's about discussing in a way that's productive.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:56.880
Yeah, you lose an election, that's not the end of the world, go win the next one.
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:02.799
Democracy depends on somebody not getting their way, and then it goes on.
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:03.519
Aaron Powell That's right.
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:13.039
And Madison, I mean, uh sorry, I know we're wrapping up, was really committed to the rights of minorities within uh minority opinions, both religious and political, in a republic.
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:22.640
And he reckoned so committed to the concept of majority rule, but also recognizing that the people you disagree with have rights and and those and have opinions that need to be respected.
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:24.640
That that's one of his greatest legacies.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:25.440
Well, Dr.
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:29.359
Frank Cacliano, thank you so much for being in the studio with us today.
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:39.039
It was really interesting to hear about this progression from the revolution, kind of, I mean, even up to the present moment, and what we need to be thinking about in 2026.
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:40.240
My pleasure, Katie.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:41.119
Thanks for having me.
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:43.039
And thank you to all of our listeners.
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:50.079
Please share this show with family and friends and tune in again in two weeks as we consider the Constitution.
00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:11.439
Welcome to Consider the Constitution, the podcast that cuts through the noise and provides insight into constitutional issues that directly affect every American.
00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:12.640
Hosted by Dr.
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:27.440
Katie Crawford Lackey and featuring interviews with constitutional scholars, policy and subject matter experts, heritage professionals, and legal practitioners, we examine the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.
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Consider the Constitution is brought to you by the Robert H.
00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:36.159
Smith Center for the Constitution at James Madison's Montpelier.
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Hello and welcome back to Consider the Constitution.
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I'm your host, Dr.
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Katie Crawford Lackey, with James Madison's Montpelier.
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When we think about James Madison, we often jump from the Revolution to the Constitutional Convention, from a young Madison to the father of the Constitution.
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But there's an important chapter in between.
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The years when the promises of independence collided with realities of governing a new nation.
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This is a fascinating period of experimentation, of uncertainty, and transformation, one in which Americans debated the meaning of independence, the structure of government, and who would be included in this new political order.
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To help us explore this pivotal chapter in Madison's life and the broader challenges of the post-revolutionary era, I'm joined in the studio today by Dr.
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Frank Cogliano, Professor of American History at the University of Edinburgh.
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He is the author of A Revolutionary Friendship: Washington, Jefferson, and the American Republic.
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And Thomas Jefferson Survives with Peter S.
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Onaff.
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Dr.
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Cogliano is the co-host of the Whiskey Rebellion Podcast.
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Welcome, Frank.
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It is wonderful to have you in the studio today.
00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:03.519
Thank you, Katie.
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I'm thrilled to be here.
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Thanks for having me.
00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:07.280
Well, there's so much we could talk about.
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Your scholarship really covers a broad range.
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So we're narrowing it down to this kind of chapter in American history today.
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And before we discuss how the revolution affected and shaped Madison, we should note that this is not a singular experience or a single story.
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The American Revolution meant different things to different people and different groups.
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I'm wondering if you can talk about those competing experiences in terms of this broader perspective that the founders were operating in.
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For example, how did indigenous people or Native nations, enslaved communities, women, a loyalist, you know, all these other folks that we sometimes don't talk about?
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What's going on there at this revolutionary moment?
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Yeah, thanks, Katie.
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That's a really important question.
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To some extent, it's the important question.
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Believe it or not, the American Revolution was more than the founding fathers.
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And I know you know that, and I know that colleagues here at Montpelier know that.
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:08.800
But sometimes we have to remind certainly book buyers of that.
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And I'm guilty of this myself as you use some of the titles you kindly mentioned were focus on founders.
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But the American Revolution is about creating an independent country and an independent people.
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And that includes everybody.
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And not everybody on this continent was affected, or this part of the continent was affected the same way by the events between 1775 and the ratification of the Constitution in 1788.
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Some people were included and some people were not.
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And some people benefited from the revolution in American independence, and some people did not.
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You mentioned a number of groups, and we could discuss all of them at great length.
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Let's briefly take some of them.
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So enslaved people.
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This is the great American dilemma, as Gunnar Mirdahl said more than 80 years ago.
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Look, the Declaration of Independence says all men are created equal.
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How do we reconcile that with the fact that the man who wrote that enslaved over 600 people over the course of his lifetime, Thomas Jefferson?
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And at least 200 at the time he wrote those words.
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Well, on one hand we don't, and and and we can't.
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On the other, if one reads Jefferson's draft of the Declaration, for example, there's a clause in there in the long list of crimes attributed to George III that is about the slave trade, the transatlantic slave trade.
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And in that clause, Jefferson refers to the people victimized by the slave trade as having the rights and liberties of a distant people.
00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:51.519
The implication of that, this was cut by Congress, but the implication of it is the rights to life, liberty, and happiness and the pursuit of happiness that the Declaration refers to in its second paragraph applies to everyone.
00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:55.120
It's more universal than sometimes we have read it in the past.
00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.040
So I think that's interesting.
00:04:57.040 --> 00:05:04.800
Congress cut that out, and that suggests that for the at least the framers of the Declaration of Independence, they saw a limit there.
00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:11.040
But even at the time there were people, including Jefferson in that moment, who had a more capacious view of that.
00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:12.319
So I think that's interesting.
00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:22.800
And more importantly, because this isn't about a few uh uh elite individuals, enslaved people, their allies were making this case in 1776, saying, hang on a minute.
00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:25.519
If it says all men are created equal, what does that mean?
00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:32.399
So I and and this includes us, and they used it as a basis for demanding their liberty, and that's incredibly important.
00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:41.920
When it comes to indigenous people, the picture is more complicated, but in some respects there's no optimistic outcome here.
00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:53.040
So the the the uh declaration, I'm quoting the declaration's words not mine, makes reference to merciless Indian savages that the British are mobilizing against the people fighting for independence.
00:05:53.040 --> 00:06:03.839
And Colin Callaway, the great historian at Dartmouth, who's written about this, reminds us that in 1776, North America was a great indigenous continent.
00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:10.399
The people who were rebelling, this little uh thing going on in the eastern seaboard is limited when we see it in continental terms.
00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:24.399
Nonetheless, the Revolutionary War itself and the settlement that comes out of it largely excludes Native peoples, and to some extent, the republic that emerges from it will be premised on expanding at the expense of Native peoples.
00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:26.639
I'm simplifying a complicated story here.
00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:29.040
We could talk about this in another episode if you want.
00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.399
So, in that perspective, we see limitations.
00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:34.000
You mentioned women.
00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:36.319
The uh all men are created equal.
00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:38.560
Now, this is gendered language, we know this.
00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:42.560
In the 18th century, people used men to mean humanity.
00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:44.639
On the other hand, they didn't say humanity.
00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:46.800
They didn't say mankind, they said men.
00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:58.000
And the political settlement that comes out of the revolution largely excludes women, although we do see improvements for women in certain areas when it comes to property rights, divorce, some educational improvements.
00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:04.480
These are limited by region and class in many cases, so I don't want to overstate them.
00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:11.120
But it's worth noting that when the Seneca Falls Convention met in 1848 to adopt the Declaration of Sentiments, what did it do?
00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:15.600
It reworked the Declaration of Independence to assert that all men and women are created equal.
00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:18.800
The other group we need to consider is common people.
00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:31.519
And and in this, I and the um uh uh uh recently deceased Gordon Wood made this argument quite powerfully in the uh Radicalism of the American Revolution, his landmark book from 30 odd years ago.
00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:45.199
The empowerment of common people, especially common white men, is not something that we necessarily appreciate the significance of, but their empowerment is a consequence of the revolution and the fight for independence.
00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:48.000
And that is a radical development.
00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:52.720
And I think we've lost our appreciation for the significance of that.
00:07:52.720 --> 00:08:02.160
In part because, let's face it, we've been in a country for the past 250 years where the white men have had a pretty good run of things, and white men exercising power doesn't excite us as a radical step.
00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:08.879
But given the way pre-independent society was oriented and colonial society was oriented, that is an important development.
00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:18.720
Well, I appreciate you tackling that question because it was a very there's a lot to this answer, and it could be an entire series on its own.
00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:22.000
But I do want to note something that you mentioned.
00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:27.199
For example, Native nations, indigenous people, that is not just a homogenous group.
00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:33.519
Obviously, there's a lot of complexity depending on not just individuals, but different tribes and all of that.
00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:35.519
Same with enslaved communities, same with women.
00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:37.919
So that's a really good point that you make.
00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:43.519
And this is really important, the context that you frame it around.
00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:50.320
You know, we think white men gaining, you know, independence doesn't seem quite radical to us today.
00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:53.039
But at that time, it's really unusual what they're doing.
00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:54.960
And we shouldn't lose sight of that.
00:08:55.519 --> 00:08:56.000
That's right.
00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:56.480
That's right.
00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:58.720
Can I add one thing that I that I neglected?
00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.039
Let's not forget people who didn't support independence.
00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:10.399
There were lots of loyalists, including from all of these groups, but yeah, almost every social group, this revolution divided people.
00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:14.879
Just as it created a new national identity, it also excluded.
00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:20.240
Once you start identifying, once you start defining a national identity, you're creating boundaries.
00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:32.000
And there were people, some of the same social class as the people we call founding fathers, but there were also a lot of women, indigenous enslaved people, common people, who opposed independence.
00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:34.080
And they were Americans.
00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:35.279
They were also British.
00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:36.799
It's a this is complicated.
00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:38.000
We're sorting all this out.
00:09:38.000 --> 00:10:05.679
I've long thought one of the problems with this, and I say this as somebody who teaches in the UK, because we call it the American Revolution, and because it's our founding moment as a nation and a national and it's the foundation of our national identity, we miss the transatlantic nature of this and the fact that this there were people in Britain who supported the Patriot cause, and there were people here in North America who supported Britain until the end, to the extent that 60,000 of them went into exile at the end of the war.
00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:11.120
And far more than that who didn't have the means to go into exile had to reconcile themselves to the new regime.
00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:12.639
But we we shouldn't forget them either.
00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:23.200
Aaron Powell The revolution is so complex and nuanced, and it really is kind of a global event that affects, if not at that moment, down the line.
00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:24.159
Aaron Powell That's right.
00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:24.799
That's right.
00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:28.720
And it will transform the British Empire for one thing.
00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:32.559
I mean, Maya Jasanoff in her book Liberties Exiles has written about this.
00:10:32.559 --> 00:10:39.679
She she looked at the loyalist exiles and talked about how there was a spirit of 1783 along with the spirit of 1776.
00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:43.600
And these exiles took American notions, if you will.
00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:47.200
I'm using air quotes, even though this is an audio podcast, so that's very effective.
00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:54.960
I realize, took American notions of rights and liberties with them and helped reform and transform the British Empire, and they end up all over the place.
00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:59.440
They end up in London, but they end up in India and South Asia and in Australia.
00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:04.559
And so it is a transformative event in all kinds of ways because the British Empire was a global empire.
00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:08.639
And so this event that fractured it couldn't help but have global implications.
00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:15.360
And even for those, I'll use James Madison as an example, who eventually supported the American Revolution.
00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:21.519
You know, he is born into a world that is not at that, you know, revolutionary moment.
00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:26.799
And, you know, he grows up, goes to school, College of New Jersey, today Princeton.
00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:29.200
We know that he's learning about enlightenment thought.
00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:31.600
We've talked on the podcast about that before.
00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:42.960
But when Madison returns to Montpelier in the 1770s, what draws him into politics at this pivotal moment?
00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.559
And we know he's kind of a bookish intellectual.
00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:49.360
He's not known for his like military leadership.
00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:53.840
But what are the issues that animate him at this really pivotal moment?
00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:57.840
I think uh I mean, I'm glad you mentioned his time at Princeton.
00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:00.320
And uh, you know, he studied under John Witherspoon.
00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:06.320
And John Witherspoon was a Scot who'd emigrated to become the president of the College of New Jersey.
00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:08.000
He transformed the curriculum.
00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:38.720
And the curriculum they're teaching at at Princeton when Madison is studying there is very much a kind of Scottish moral sense curriculum that emphasizes what during the Enlightenment was called the Science of Man Project, which was trying to understand humanity, and I think they are using man to mean humanity in the in this particular context, dedicated to the proposition that if we apply reason to our problems, we can improve, we can understand, come to under a deeper understanding of the world and improve it and solve its problems.
00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:45.600
And I think that that outlook, Madison really embraced that and imbued him as he returned from Princeton.
00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:52.879
And one of the problems that was confronting the people in his world was the question about British rule in the colonies.
00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:58.799
And I think Witherspoon is a signatory to the Declaration of Independence, Witherspoon will become a patriot.
00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:00.399
Witherspoon is a mentor to Madison.
00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:02.320
I'm not saying it's all down to Witherspoon.
00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:07.200
However, I think that when he returned to Montpelier, those were the ideas that were in his head.
00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:11.440
He was a very, very smart guy, I don't have to tell you this, and very, very well read.
00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:16.080
He did his homework, and I think he was committed to that political project.
00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:17.600
And it was an outgrowth of that.
00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:27.840
Also, not all, but many of his class in this region were committed patriots, as well as Thomas Jefferson being a very good example down the road, and George Mason and others.
00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:31.440
And so I think that's also his peer group is on board with this as well.
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:34.080
Not all of them, but I think that that's important too.
00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:40.879
And we know he's having these conversations with the folks he's at school with, people in this area.
00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:48.080
And when he returns to Montpelier, he is participating in the revolution.
00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:51.600
First, you know, he serves on the Orange County Committee of Safety.
00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:57.039
He helps secure stronger protections for religious liberty in Virginia's Declaration of Rights.
00:13:57.039 --> 00:14:00.720
We know freedom of conscience is a really big sticking point for him.
00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:06.879
But right after that pivotal moment in 1776, what's happening next?
00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:13.440
And what role is he playing from 1776 up to 1783 while this fighting is going on?
00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:19.120
Yeah, he does not, I mean, he has a notional um militia commission, but he doesn't serve in the military.
00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:22.639
He's does not take a prominent military role during the war.
00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:24.000
He's not well suited to it.
00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:25.440
That's not his skill set.
00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:27.679
He's always described as sickly.
00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:29.279
He's not necessarily in good health.
00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:32.320
He always thinks he's dying, if you know, and he's gonna live a very long life.
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:33.840
That's not playing to his strength.
00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:38.080
He does something really important, I think, in May of 1776, and you referred to that.
00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:44.879
He's a member, so he starts in the Orange Committee of Safety, and then he moves on to the Fifth Virginia Convention.
00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:51.759
Declaring independence, everybody knows that declaring independence is gonna necessitate drafting constitutions and new laws.
00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:58.480
And if the military uh area is not his strength, constitutions are his strength, and we're gonna see that, aren't we?
00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:08.799
And so he takes a hand, not the leading role, but an important role, especially with regard to questions of religion, in helping to draft the Virginia Constitution of 1776.
00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:13.200
He then serves on the Governor's Council in 1779.
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:15.759
He's in Jefferson's Governor's Council.
00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:32.080
The governor created by the Virginia Constitution is actually quite weak, and the council has a lot of authority, but he's seeing how frankly ineffective the Virginia Constitution of 1776 is when the British invade the state in 1779 and 1780 and 81.
00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:34.799
He's then in Congress, and I think this is important.
00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:38.320
He's in Congress for the latter stages of the war.
00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:42.960
And that's a time when Congress is somewhat ineffective.
00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:53.759
The war is winding down, but there's an unwillingness on the part of many in Congress to continue to support funding the Army, for example, and paying the soldiers.
00:15:53.759 --> 00:16:01.279
He gets a very close-up view of what's wrong with the current arrangement.
00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:03.840
And we do need to temper this somewhat.
00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:17.440
And there's a sense in which the winners write the story, right?
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:25.279
Because what can be said for the Articles of Confederation is the Patriots declare independence and win the war war of independence under that government.
00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:26.960
So it wasn't a complete failure.
00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:34.559
On the other hand, by the time that Madison gets to Congress, it's pretty ineffective or its deficiencies are becoming clear.
00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:36.320
And he's aware of that.
00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:41.440
And he will come, therefore, to believe that reform is necessary.
00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:46.240
Reform of the government of the United States will be essential as he sees it.
00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:52.480
Your scholarship has focused on the relationship between key founders.
00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:57.279
So we referenced the book that you wrote, The Relationship Between Washington and Jefferson.
00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:02.240
And we often think of those names obviously as being associated with the American Revolution.
00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:09.200
Although I think we tend to associate this party that's happening, you know, 250th is because of this declaration of independence.
00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:11.440
And that's the flashpoint moment.
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:22.079
But Madison, as you noted, drafting this Virginia constitution with several other delegates or a number of other delegates is a really important part of this story.
00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:32.400
So as we try to expand our understanding of his relationship with these key men, what does that look like at the time of the revolution and then beyond that?
00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:33.279
Thanks.
00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:34.000
That's a good question.
00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:37.680
One thing I would say is, okay, we're past July 4th, 2026.
00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:44.240
Clock's ticking now for you, Katie, because you you've got 11 years and we're doing the 250th of the Constitution.
00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:52.880
However, I mean, Madison's relationships with both Jefferson and Washington are quite interesting and very productive, actually.
00:17:52.880 --> 00:18:08.640
Madison and Jefferson will work together, or their friendship will grow during the war, but it really takes off after the war, especially when Jefferson returns from France in 1789 to become Secretary of State under Washington.
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:12.000
And Madison is emerges as the leader of the opposition.
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:17.599
So this is after the Constitution, but they're close and in close contact even while Jefferson's in France.
00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:25.839
So Jefferson spends a lot of time buying books and sending them to Madison to help him prepare for the Constitutional Convention.
00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:28.640
Madison is the guy, I always tell my students this.
00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:32.960
He's not just the guy who does the required reading, he's the guy who does the suggested reading.
00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:37.519
And then goes to office hours and says, Do you have any more for me to read?
00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:44.960
And so Jefferson enables him to use contemporary language in doing this and sends him the stuff to read.
00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:52.079
So they're collaborating and talking about what's wrong with the country as they see it, and they don't always agree on this during the 1780s.
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:58.559
In fact, when Madison sends Jefferson the draft of the Constitution in the autumn of 1787, he's very pleased with it.
00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:00.480
This has been a hard work over the summer.
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:03.119
And Jefferson sort of says, meh, it's fine.
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:06.480
He said, you know, I'm worried the president can become king.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:08.799
And where's the Bill of Rights?
00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:10.720
And he he's very lukewarm.
00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.640
And Madison says, you know, this was hard.
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:17.680
And then Jefferson changes his tune and eventually becomes a kind of lukewarm supporter of the Constitution.
00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:28.480
When Jefferson returns, he and Madison, their relationship really develops because they become close political allies in the growing opposition to the Federalist Party and the partisanship of the 1790s.
00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:35.279
And that friendship is probably the deepest political and possibly personal friendship each has as an adult.
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:47.519
They are very, very close to the extent that Jefferson sleeps here and Madison's goes to Monticello, and they, you know, they know each other well and uh will do for the rest of their lives.
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.279
And Madison serves as uh Jefferson Secretary of State.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:59.200
Jefferson, who's about a decade older, will act as a sort of conseliere to him during Madison's presidency when Jefferson is notionally retired.
00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:03.759
During their retirements, they see each other a lot, they correspond a lot.
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.720
Jefferson famously says to Madison, who's younger than he is, you know, take care of me when dead.
00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:18.799
Which means look after our project and not just my reputation in a kind of va vain way, but also like what we've been working towards together, and that's important.
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:31.039
So that relationship is rock solid, and we can chart that Madison's relationship with Washington is really fascinating to me because they collaborate in really interesting ways.
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:49.599
They attend the um the so-called Annapolis Convention in 1786, which is called for the states around the Potomac to talk about boundary issues, but it's really they meet in Annapolis to discuss reform of the Articles Confederation.
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:56.799
Now, what happens is they only get a handful of it's about a dozen guys from five states come to this thing and they meet in a bar.
00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:01.440
I've always thought this is an interesting trick that they've designed they've called this the Annapolis Convention.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.880
Twelve guys in a bar talking about overthrowing the government is not a convention.
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:06.480
It's something, but it's not a convention.
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:14.160
But anyway, but they're there and they support this and they propose a meeting the following spring that will become the Constitutional Convention.
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.160
I don't want to cast any aspersions on that.
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:18.160
That happens in a council chamber.
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:22.640
And that's not an illegal gathering, but it's extra legal.
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:30.000
It's basically 50 plus elite private citizens getting together, all men, to talk about reforming the government.
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:31.119
They're going to do more than that.
00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:34.079
They're going to propose a totally new frame of government.
00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:37.759
And Washington and Madison are the two most important people there.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:46.240
Madison because he comes with the plan, and Washington because he has the authority to give this thing credibility.
00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:52.240
And they know, they each know and respect the other's role in advance of this.
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:53.839
And that's really, really important.
00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:56.319
And that's a product of their friendship.
00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.839
And they're not as close as Jefferson and Madison will be.
00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:08.880
Be, and they will become estranged in the 1790s, not to the degree that Washington and Jefferson became estranged, but because they're going to diverge over politics.
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:14.799
But the I I think Madison respected Washington greatly.
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:22.480
And Washington, who was the great man of the age, especially in military matters, didn't say to Madison, well, you didn't serve in the Army.
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:29.279
He recognized Madison Washington was very good at recognizing the talents of others, especially those he didn't possess.
00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:34.240
And he re and um Washington was one thing I learned in doing the Washington book is Washington's no dummy.
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:37.839
You read a lot of Washington, you c you you realize this guy is very smart.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:41.920
He's not as well educated as he didn't benefit from going to college.
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:46.240
He's not as well educated, he doesn't read multiple languages like Madison and Jefferson do.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:52.079
Um he can't, you know, opine about philosophy to the same extent they like to do with each other, all that kind of stuff.
00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:53.359
But he's not stupid.
00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:57.759
But he recognizes Madison's abilities and he he really encourages those.
00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:05.200
So I think that relationship is to some extent more interesting than the Jefferson-Madison one, because we know the Jefferson-Madison one like their friends, their political allies.
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:06.160
We get that.
00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:14.720
The Madison-Washington relationship is really interesting to me because of its bringing two disparate people together to work together um quite productively.
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:16.880
That is really fascinating.
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:28.640
We do have a sense that Madison and Jefferson are really aligned on a lot of their shared thoughts, beliefs, vision for the country, and Washington being a little bit of an outlier in terms of their line of thinking.
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:34.400
It's helpful to hear about those relationships and how they change.
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:44.880
Does that tell us anything, the way that their relationships change, does it tell us anything about the changing political landscape from late 1770s through the 1790s?
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:45.759
Yes.
00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:46.240
Yes.
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:48.640
A couple things I would say in response to that, Katie.
00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:51.680
One is people's views change over time.
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:55.599
We we assume people are fixed in amber and like this is their view.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:58.000
So we say, well, Madison believed this.
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.640
Well, or Jefferson believed that.
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:02.480
And yeah, that's often true.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:16.960
We have the record, but that also means you know, so how do we explain Madison, the primary author and one of the architects of the Constitution, also collaborating with Jefferson on the Virginia-Kentucky resolutions a decade later?
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:21.039
Now, one can say, oh well, he what a hypocrite.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:21.759
No.
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:35.440
One can also say, okay, now that he's seen the government operate for a decade and it went in ways that he hadn't expected, he's offering a what he hopes is a constitutional solution to the challenges posed by overreach by the Federalists.
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:37.200
So it's not hypocrisy.
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:39.839
People change in light of experience.
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:47.039
And what we see, particularly with regard to the time period you just suggested, is the revolutionaries are all together in the 1770s.
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.640
I exaggerate, but let's say, for the sake of argument, let's accept that.
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:58.720
And then once they achieve independence and adopt this constitution, they fall out with each other, and we end up with political parties emerging.
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:06.559
Now, this is one rejoinder to people who think, oh, the founders were chosen by God and they, you know, you know, they're perfect.
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:09.519
They didn't think political parties were going to be a problem.
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:22.240
So before we say, let's be governed by everything they thought, and there were political parties almost from the moment they were done with the Constitution, the Bill of Rights wasn't even dry yet, and there were political parties emerging.
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:23.839
And they didn't see that coming.
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:31.519
And so they're going to change, and because they're disagreeing about how a republic should operate, they actually disagree about quite profound things in important ways.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:33.599
And there's also hardball politics.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:38.240
The 1790s are fascinating and very entertaining, but they think the stakes are really high.
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:54.880
And so people who were united together, like John Adams and Jefferson, they were together writing the Declaration in 1776, they were together as diplomats in the 1780s in in Europe, and they're going to become estranged over politics in the 1790s.
00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:56.960
That's not necessarily hypocrisy.
00:25:56.960 --> 00:25:58.319
It's life.
00:25:58.319 --> 00:25:59.920
You're very young, Katie.
00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:00.799
I'm quite old.
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:04.640
I don't have exactly the same views now that I might have had 20 or 30 years ago.
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:05.759
It's the human condition.
00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:08.400
Aaron Powell Frank, are you saying we change our minds about things?
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:10.400
I am, I am, Katie.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:15.440
And in hopefully in light of circumstances and actually considering the circumstances.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:16.720
Yeah, occasionally we do.
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:18.880
And we need to give people the space to do that.
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:38.000
I have heard criticism of Madison about him, you know, being more pro-strong central government and then sort of pulling back from that as the years go on, favoring more of states having their own power, broadening state power versus central kind of federal power.
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:41.440
And I think it's actually a credit to Madison.
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:48.400
He's very committed to his beliefs, but at the same time, he is willing to change his mind given logic, the argument.
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:54.720
And I don't know anything more human than that, being open to new ideas and conversation.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:55.599
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: That's right.
00:26:55.599 --> 00:27:10.000
And so I, you know, again, he's the main author of the Virginia resolutions in 1798, which the Virginia legislature adopts at his urging and the urging of Jefferson in response to the Alien and Sedition Acts.
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.480
Well, he didn't anticipate the Alien and Sedition Acts when they were drafting the Constitution of the Bill of Rights.
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:20.000
And he feels that the Federalists under John Adams have gone too far, and this is meant to be a remedy to that.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:29.759
And the Virginia resolutions, but more so the Kentucky resolutions, which Jefferson authored, and here's another area where they collaborated closely.
00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:34.480
There's an implication, at least, of what will come to be we'll call states' rights.
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:39.440
Some have said that lays the foundation for nullification later, which of course anticipates the Civil War.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:54.319
They don't know that in 1798, and I don't think that's what they intended in 1798, but it's an example of what you just said so eloquently, which is they're trying to find a way to solve a problem that they hadn't anticipated, which is what you do in light of changing circumstances.
00:27:54.319 --> 00:28:01.119
I think the Constitution was always meant to be a means to an end, but the end was Republican government and preserving liberty.
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:05.119
And you know, that was what the revolution was about as far as they were concerned.
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:07.920
And they wanted the Constitution to work.
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.680
Jefferson famously said about the Constitutions in general.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:16.400
We don't expect a man to wear the coat he wore when he was a boy.
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:20.799
We shouldn't be governed by our barbarous ancestors, and he means them themselves.
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:28.720
In other words, it's amendable for a reason you need not you change willy-nilly at a whim, but you do sometimes need to change with circumstances.
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:34.400
And I think Madison, who was so instrumental in drafting the Constitution, would have agreed with that.
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:38.559
That's a great example of the alien and sedition acts about Madison.
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:47.279
I don't want to say changing his mind, but it's I don't want to say easy, but agreeing, yes, we need to be independent from the British Crown.
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:48.240
That's one thing.
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.279
But then how that actually gets put into practice is very different.
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:56.799
And I think that's where some of these individuals diverge in terms of their vision.
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:00.720
Yes, if I can quote the there's a musical Hamilton you might have heard of.
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.559
I uh it's it's not well known.
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.359
Winning is easy, governing is hard.
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:06.960
Exactly.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:22.640
And bringing the conversation back to this 250th anniversary that we're celebrating in 2026, what aspects of Madison's revolutionary experience and political thought deserve greater attention?
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:27.920
Are there parts of his story that are broadly overlooked and misunderstood?
00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:28.799
Yes.
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:34.160
I mean, I think um, you know, Madison's gonna have his moment 11 years from now.
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:36.000
We are getting ready for it.
00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:36.640
I hope so.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:37.759
I'm happy to help you.
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:49.279
But I think his commitment to religious liberty is really, really important and really bears thinking about in the current moment as we reflect on 250 years of this republic.
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:53.119
And in May of 1776, that was on his mind.
00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:59.440
That was one of his contributions to the Virginia Bill of Rights or Declaration of Rights and the Constitution.
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:01.279
And it laid the, it helped lay the groundwork.
00:30:01.279 --> 00:30:03.680
And again, this is something that he and Jefferson collaborated on.
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:18.319
Jefferson will um draft the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom in 1777, but it's Madison who's going to usher it through the House of Delegates in 1786 after he had written his famous Remonstrance on Religion in 1785.
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:29.359
I think Madison's commitment, I mean, Madison's constitutional thought is incredibly important, but I think his commitment to religious liberty for all, he's not anti-religion.
00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:33.200
Disestablishment is not meant to attack people of faith.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:35.519
It's actually meant to protect people of faith.
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:42.880
And I think that commitment is one of the things we ought to be celebrating today on the at the semi-quincentennial.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:59.200
And when we, you know, Americans or people across the world, when we think about 250 years now looking ahead, so you know, we've celebrated this moment, but as you kind of implied, it is a moment to to be reflective, but then to look forward.
00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:14.319
What do you hope the public, you know, listeners of our show take away from that revolutionary period, not just about Madison, but broadly the founders, the creation of the American Republic itself?
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:26.480
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men and women are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:28.960
That's a heck of a sentence.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:34.640
And as a premise for a nation, it's not bad.
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:41.599
We need to make sure we live up to those words and that we make sure they apply to all Americans.
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:44.799
We began this conversation by talking about who wasn't included.
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:52.319
Happily, we have a more broad approach when it comes to citizenship, I hope, and we should include everyone in those words.
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:55.279
I think let's live up to those words.
00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:57.519
That's my most sincere hope.
00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:04.160
The other thing that I think we need to learn how to do or relearn how to do is to disagree without hating each other.
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:07.519
We're in a polarized political moment.
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:11.680
Everybody, you know, it doesn't matter where you are on the political spectrum, everybody says that.
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:14.559
And I think we see that.
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:21.839
There will be a moment after this one, and we all have to p wake up with a hangover and decide to get along.
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:26.960
And finding out how to live up to those principles in an agreeable way.
00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:29.119
Not that we're always going to agree.
00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:31.279
We're never going to agree completely.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:35.519
But we have to stop thinking about the people we disagree with as our enemies.
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:38.319
That is a really powerful point.
00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:43.359
And I think the point of a democratic republic is to have people of different ideas.
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:50.400
Madison and his ideas on factions and the importance of having different people, different ideas coming together.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:53.359
It's about discussing in a way that's productive.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:56.880
Yeah, you lose an election, that's not the end of the world, go win the next one.
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:02.799
Democracy depends on somebody not getting their way, and then it goes on.
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:03.519
Aaron Powell That's right.
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:13.039
And Madison, I mean, uh sorry, I know we're wrapping up, was really committed to the rights of minorities within uh minority opinions, both religious and political, in a republic.
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:22.640
And he reckoned so committed to the concept of majority rule, but also recognizing that the people you disagree with have rights and and those and have opinions that need to be respected.
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:24.640
That that's one of his greatest legacies.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:25.440
Well, Dr.
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:29.359
Frank Cacliano, thank you so much for being in the studio with us today.
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:39.039
It was really interesting to hear about this progression from the revolution, kind of, I mean, even up to the present moment, and what we need to be thinking about in 2026.
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:40.240
My pleasure, Katie.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:41.119
Thanks for having me.
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:43.039
And thank you to all of our listeners.
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:50.079
Please share this show with family and friends and tune in again in two weeks as we consider the Constitution.
