Shane Leaning: Well, hello, hello, hello. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Wherever you are in the world. Welcome to coaching done well. I am Shane leaning and I am joining you from Shanghai in China. And I am joined by my wonderful, wonderful friend, coach and colleague, Jim Thompson over in New York state in the U S how you doing Jim.
Jim Thompson: Well, Shane, I'm just delighted to be here with you as always with you today, especially for episode, which really responds to Jim Knight's great question, what does improvement look like? Kind of a sneak preview. I think we've not really been doing a good job for like decades upon decades responding to him, but I think we've got ⁓ some thoughts to share today. You know, I always talk about the weather. It's been a tough winter in upstate New York, but next week we're supposed to be in the 60s. March is a crazy month for us. We can have blizzards and we can have 60 degree days. So I'm hoping for more 60 degree days, my friend. How's the weather in Shanghai these days?
Shane Leaning: Yeah, this it's it's okay. We're coming into a bit of a wet, wet season, we got a bit of rain at the minute, but the and the weather is up and down here. And for those who not been to China, ⁓ the seasons in China are very interesting in that you kind of have this moment where it goes, winter, winter, winter, winter, and then you have a glitchy season where it just goes winter, summer, winter, summer, winter, summer, can't make his decide up mind up.
Jim Thompson: Hey.
Shane Leaning: and then it makes the switch. Whereas I'm used to back in the UK, this wonderful, smooth, gradual, know, dance through the seasons. I do miss that actually. Miss the colors on the trees.
Jim Thompson: I hear you know, we have the crazy weather here. The favorite phrase in Western New York, if you don't like the weather, wait five minutes, you know, and we can't go all the time.
Shane Leaning: Ha ha ha ha. I like that. that. Well, Jim, this is ⁓ a delight and ⁓ to everyone who's joining us live because I know a lot of people ⁓ us live, whether you are joining on Riverside or you're joining on LinkedIn live, it is a pleasure to have you here. ⁓ can already see dear friend of the show, ⁓ Booth and saying, hi guys. Good to be with you live today. It is such an honor to have you not only come on the show, Jason, but also Join in with us on these weeks. This is just what a, what a delight. And you know, to, to usually we're speaking with amazing people working in the coaching space, um, around the world. And we're going to continue to do that. But today we've got something a little bit different and I just kind of wanted to start at Jim. If you didn't mind, I've got Jim's, um, brilliant book here, video coaching done well, which I had the the honor of the forward to you and Casey ⁓ with wrote this brilliant book. And ⁓ wonder, Jim, if you would mind if I just read a couple of paragraphs here, just to remind me what I said, because this takes me back to a moment on the forward of the book. I when this came out, this is a book about transformation, ⁓ not grand sweeping kind that promises big results in an instant, ⁓ but accessible. Meaningful kind, which starts with just a few minutes of video and honest reflection. And I experienced this firsthand during a coaching session with Jim Thompson himself. In just 20 minutes, he created a space where I could explore my patterns, identify goals and feel genuinely empowered to take next steps. this experience formed part of a wider shift in my understanding of what effective coaching should be. And, ⁓ Jim, I remember that very well. This was one of the first episodes of our coaching done well, where you coached me online. And that was a really wonderful experience. So we thought, why not do it again? Because we got a lot of good feedback back then. A lot of people want to see coaching in practice. ⁓ a vulnerable moment for us both, Jim, you being coached, me being coachee to put ourselves out there. But I guess we thought it was important to do, right? We thought this would be something that would be Great to share with others out there. What do you think?
Jim Thompson: Well, agreed, you know, and it is all about connection and I need some thank yous before turn it over you to kind of give an overview of what's going to happen. But first of all, thank you, Shane. I thank you for being a trailblazer, a pioneer in ⁓ to get better. What does improvement look like? It asks people to their trust and their vulnerability. A thank you to Jim Knight for his for his seminal book on this several years back, video coaching inspired Casey and I to write our books and thank you. Your forward was brilliant. Thanks to Ted Lasso for the comment, ⁓ to stay curious, but not judgemental. If somebody were to ask me what are essential characteristics of an effective coaches, they encourage people to stay curious and not be judgemental. Thanks to Michael Bungay Stanyay, where we ⁓ us to stay curious longer, stay curious longer. To ⁓ the Meg Wheatley, where we to one another with simple conversations to restore hope in the future. My God, if we need, if there isn't a time to help us restore hope in the future, I don't know what the time is, but these. return to simple conversations. Hammond, where we emulate the pedagogy of listening. then one, I'll line this up before I turn over to the fabulous Brene Brown. Because it's about connection, isn't it? Reminds us that is why we're here. We're hardwired to connect with others. It's what gives us purpose and meaning to our lives. And without it, there is suffering. So if nothing else this morning, today, this evening in Shanghai this morning in Western New York, we want to invite, nourish, cheerlead, advocate, cherish connection. So thanks for that. That's kind of my, what's my two cents right now. Let me turn it over to you to kind of give us that macro view of what's going to happen.
Shane Leaning: For sure. And thank you, Jim. I'm thankful for for putting this together and for all those years ago ⁓ suggesting that we might even venture into this space together and to bring some of these conversations to people. Gosh, I'm so glad we did. So a bit different, we've got our viewers joining in. Please say hi in the chat if you are there and comment as we go on what you find. ⁓ interesting or challenging or what you're reflecting on what your own practice and we'll try bring your voices in. But what we're going to do today ⁓ Jim has kindly agreed to ⁓ me today, is brilliant and using his approach of video coaching. So Jim and I are both pretty strong advocates of the power ⁓ of We think everyone should be video in themselves. doing something, watching it back and asking some powerful questions. And we advocate this for a lot. You'll have seen if you're joining live on our little intro, we talk about the eight minute challenge and what if you just filmed yourself at eight minutes? What could you discover from filming that meeting that you're leading, filming that part of the class that you've been having, filming that bit of professional development that you were delivering, whatever it is you do. reflecting back on that and how could that help you improve your practice? And we wouldn't just, um, preach this without doing it ourselves. So we're going to have a go at doing it ourselves. I, um, for a bit of context for people out there, I'm currently leading a program called the education leaders intensive, which is a, an intensive program where I'm working with 18 incredible leaders across the world, supporting them to master 10 fundamentals leadership levers together. And we meet every week. We do a lot of reflection together. And so this is the first cohort of this. And I thought, well, this would be a wonderful, a wonderful thing for me to reflect on. So I recorded myself in my last session. And what I've done is I chose the first 10 minutes to have a bit of reflect on my practice to see if watching myself back and getting asked questions by Jim could help me potentially to improve my practice and more importantly to improve the experience for those that I'm serving, which are those brilliant leaders. So Jim, I am in your hands for the next 20 minutes or however long we go and I'm... really looking forward to this process. Thank you so much for facilitating it.
Jim Thompson: Shane, first of I want to thank you. do not take it lightly that when you invite somebody to trust and to be vulnerable with you. This doesn't overnight. It's a journey. a journey, you know, and so first, thank you so very much. But my first question and reflection question that I invite you to reflect on is Shane, what should I know about the folks you're working with in this video? there a story you'd like to share about them?
Shane Leaning: ⁓ Jim, I like that question. It's not often you get asked a question to share the story. So I am currently working with 18 incredible leaders right across the world. And the interesting thing is that these are some of the most open willingly people I've worked with ⁓ in they've signed up to a program. There's people of various levels here. I've not just done a program just for middle leaders or just for executive leaders. I've got in one program, some new department leads who've just been leading for a year. I've got on the same program, experienced principals. I've got university lecturers. I've got system level leaders who lead across groups of schools. And what's really interesting is each one of those people has decided that they want to take this program because there is still room for growth and there is still room for them to become better versions of themselves and to be better for their communities. And I can't help but be totally inspired that that diversity of leaders would decide to come on a journey with me to improve their practice. That's really inspires me to make this program the best it can possibly be.
Jim Thompson: Shane, just, I can read from your body language. can read from the sparkle in your eyes that you kind of are in the zone with this work. ⁓ I just ask a, can I add on question? What gives you the most energy from this work with these people?
Shane Leaning: you So gives me energy is that I there is ⁓ a that ⁓ across the world that leadership looks a certain thing. This is what good leadership looks like. ⁓ This is what good leader do. And I think therefore it means ⁓ so many people into the caricatures of leadership. really puts fire in my belly about this work is that I think leaders come genuinely all shapes and sizes and personalities and backgrounds. ⁓ in my experience, and not been proven wrong yet in my experience, that is a enriching thing for the people who ⁓ work with And I therefore very passionate about my mission to support these leaders from all sorts of backgrounds to become the great leaders I know that they can become and not just some copy, know, Kate Cutter version of a leader. And good knows there's so many bad examples of leaders out in the world right there, right now. And actually looking inside and looking at your own values. This just, yeah, this is what gives me gives me the spark seeing people be able to become, to stay themselves, but become those better versions of themselves that they want to be. just, you know, what a, what a, ⁓ a beautiful mission to be involved in.
Jim Thompson: That is inspiring, my friend. I mean, that is inspiring. But talk about and we'll talk maybe later on about that intentionality, the intention you're bringing to all this. We'll talk more about that later. But thank you for that. ⁓ so let's go on to the question. goal did you identify? reflecting on this video to work on and maybe talk a little bit about if you could why it's it go important to you and how do you think reaching it might advance the success and well-being of those that you work with.
Shane Leaning: So I chose to watch just the first 10 minutes back of my session where I kind of opened my latest session. And in that session, just for context, I was teaching, coaching around the idea of how to run an effective meeting. that kind of the area that we were looking at. And ⁓ I back, I noticed something which was interesting. So As I mentioned, this cohort is the first cohort of this program that I've delivered. And therefore I've been researching this course for the last year and doing a lot of work into researching it, into testing it. But it means it's the very first time I've delivered this content as it is, as it is packaged. although I am a comfortable public speaker, ⁓ know, I have... my podcast, I work with you on this podcast, I'm comfortable stood on a stage and working with teachers. I deliver new content, I think I have a tendency to ramble a little bit Jim. ⁓ I noticed in this first 10 minute opening that I very, ⁓ know, bit rambly. was a bit, ⁓ there was of ums. and as and likes and lots of filler words that I was using. I felt like watching it back, I could feel myself going, come on, Shane, get to the point. This is not, this is leaders giving their time. And this was, you you being more succinct be, would be more useful for their time. So ⁓ I wondered if goal to ⁓ work towards that love to work is how can I become a little bit more. clear and succinct how I'm delivering this new content to who I'm working with. I don't know that makes sense to you, Jim.
Jim Thompson: You know, I hear you and I empathize with you because that's what, know, me too when I videos of myself talk about empathy, you know, with that. ⁓ But I appreciate that vulnerability and that candor right off from the start, my friend. It's not easy and we're doing this live and invite somebody to say, OK, ⁓ is kind of what we're talking about. ⁓
Shane Leaning: Yeah. Yeah.
Jim Thompson: I appreciate it and I do not take it for granted the trust that we're developing and continue to develop where, you know, your candor just comes right out. So I appreciate that so much. It goes on next to that scale on a scale one to 10 Shane. Where do you think you are right now with this goal working on it? are you right now?
Shane Leaning: Thanks, Jim. Thanks, Jim. Oh, good question. And to build on your point that you just said, just for the context for listeners listening in, we haven't rehearsed this conversation like this is, this is the live coaching conversation, just in case you're wondering whether we just kind of risked, you know, planned it out. So we haven't. So where am I at the beginning at the minute on a scale of one to 10 for my clarity and I think. You know, I think I would put myself at five or a six out of 10 at the minute. It's not like it's not awful, but it's yeah, there's a lot of room to grow. think a five or six probably when watching back. Thank
Jim Thompson: What do you think is single biggest challenge to taking the first steps to advancing your goal right now? What do you believe, honestly, in your heart and your head? ⁓ your biggest challenge right now to moving on to those next steps to advance the goal?
Shane Leaning: I think one of the biggest challenges is that this is new content in terms of I'm delivering this content packaged in this way for the first time. So I think there is a There is a confidence. challenge in it in feeling that I'm confident. know I speak before I do these sessions. I care deeply. I, you know, I speak to my wife, Emma, before, and I'm always thinking, I always say to her the same thing. She must be sick of it. I'm always like, no, this is going to be the worst one yet. Like, I know I'm not, I'm not ready for this. I'm a broken record with that. I know I repeat the same pattern. So I think there's sometimes a, confidence issue there, which can potentially get in the way of delivering with clarity and confidence, especially at the start. I actually feel like when I saw like later on, I relax into it and I feel a lot better. So like once I'm in, but at that very beginning, I'm definitely more in that less confidence zone. So I feel like that's potentially a blocker and I'm, I'm not relaxed into the session at the beginning. And so that's less efficient.
Jim Thompson: Again, I appreciate your candor and your thoughts on this so much, Shane, here. again, next, go to the money question, the money question, because I'm not going to ask you first, what would you be doing differently as a coach if this were a 10? I'm going to ask you what I think is the far more important question. What would your coachees be doing differently if we're moving towards a 10?
Shane Leaning: Oh, I love this question. And I love this question particularly because as I'm watching, I'm reflecting just on myself. And the reason I've said it as a goal is because I want the experience to be better for the leaders who are on the programs, I'm privileged to work with and support, mentor and coach. For them, at the beginning, I think... At the start of these sessions, I'd like them to feel. excited. I'd like them to feel and anticipating a good session ahead. I'd like them to feel held and safe. Like we're in, you know, they're in safe hands. I think, you know, you're going into a couple of hours session where you're going to have to practice things and I want them to feel safe. And I think sometimes if I feel like I'm being dithery, potentially means that we've not got this fully settled start where everyone feels. ⁓ Um, yeah, held and safe in the session. So I think if I were to be a bit closer to a 10 in my goal, I would hope that participants on the course would feel. ⁓ a sense of comfort, safety, and kind of readiness to learn. mean, they've all been coming generally from busy days. We do this at 5 PM my time, you know, so they've had busy days. So there's something needed for them at the beginning. And I think if I was more clear more in what I'm saying, they might feel, a lot more safe and clear about how this session is gonna work for them and therefore excited to kind of lean in in the vulnerable ways I need them to.
Jim Thompson: I love it. And not to put you on the spot right now, we had subsequent conversations. Here's a question I'd add on, but not to put you on the spot, but something we've got to think about is our dialogue is ⁓ might you measure that? How much you measure that?
Shane Leaning: that's a really good question too. ⁓ So. Well, yeah, that question is so important, isn't it, Jim? Because it's, you can put things in place and actually, you know, you've got no way to know whether they work or not. And actually that measurement question is so important for me in this situation. I think potentially the way I would measure it would be in a couple of ways, usually very early on in the... in the session, ⁓ are online sessions, by the way. ⁓ I ask people a question or a reflection and I try to get a bit of very initial feedback. And I have noticed at the beginning of these sessions, less people are willing to offer. So I think I would probably notice that a few more people would be offering things, offering thoughts and ideas sooner in ⁓ the... in the session, like whether that be through the chat box or whether that be by asking a question or sharing a reflection in some way. I think that's probably one way that I would see that. And I could probably measure that because I could ⁓ go back and see ⁓ many people get involved in previous sessions and see ⁓ if it's measurably improving in that way. That would be, I mean, that's one way that comes to me, but I'm sure there's others that I would also. think about and that's a good one for me to dwell on Jim.
Jim Thompson: I appreciate that not meaning to put you on the spot, but I think as you said, that's a key ingredient to getting better with our goals. I appreciate that. You've already reiterated or said some things about in this great answer what you as a coach would be doing differently. Any additional thought or two as a coach, what you might be specifically doing differently to advance that good goal of yours?
Shane Leaning: I think as a coach, would be calm. would be collected. I would be warm and I would be confident in how I'm articulating what's to come in the course. I can just imagine for myself if I was a better place at the beginning of the call, what I think I would be showing up, you'd probably I'd probably see it in my body language that I'd be a bit more rested. I'd maybe ⁓ it in the way that I was talking, maybe the amount that I was smiling. But also I think there would be a real clarity how I'm. presenting rather than like, because I think if I was to reflect, I'm listening to myself now. I'm in reflective mode at the minute. So this is useful. There's a lot of thinking pauses and there's a lot of me kind of, you know, kind of doing this and kind of thinking. And I think this works really well in this situation. But at the start of a session where you've got 18 leaders waiting for you to kind of to support them, potentially there's a there's a different stance that I would be taking and that would be something that would be more calm, more welcoming, more encouraging, confident, energizing. That's the coach I would like to be at the start of those calls.
Jim Thompson: I love it. Could I ask the extension question within a question here? What's on your mind when you mention that word clarity? What's on your mind?
Shane Leaning: Yeah. Clarity for me is... is being able to explain things in not too many words not ⁓ to dance a topic. And I think when I'm delivering something have, this is occurring to me now actually, Jim, because your question. When I'm delivering something new, sometimes I ⁓ am nervous that person who's listening is not gonna get me. Like I'm delivering this new and there's a risk that you're not understanding. ⁓ So I think. subconsciously I start to overcompensate by trying to over explain things and and keep going, you know, and and like I'm doing now really like just I feel like I need to say more to fill this space because I'm looking at you and I'm not quite sure that you're understanding and maybe that's actually maybe this is bringing up an idea of maybe my feedback loop needs to be better in terms of getting feedback from people as to as to how well they're understanding at the beginning what I'm doing, because I'm just making that up in my head at the minute.
Jim Thompson: I love that this idea of clarity gets, I love how you were thinking out loud about it. I think we need to do more thinking out loud and conferences together and partnership because, know, a dialogue is not two monologues. I appreciate that. Shane, you have any strategies or mindsets in mind right now to kind of advance that goal? Is there something popping in your mind when you want to advance that goal or mindset?
Shane Leaning: Yes.
Jim Thompson: that you've connected with or a strategy you'd like to know more about or refine more. Any thoughts of that right now?
Shane Leaning: So I'm thinking a few things that are coming up to me now, that we've been speaking, I'm thinking one, is there something I could do before these sessions to ground myself and bring myself into a place of confidence, whether that be, whether that be, ⁓ some sort of mantra for myself, whether it be ⁓ some some sort of something that I can just review before to kind of give myself a presence or whether it just be to meditate for a few minutes or something that just helps just to ground me a little. This is kind of one of the first things I'm thinking about. I'm thinking of whether it would be useful. I mean, I review my sessions a lot before I deliver them, but I'm wondering if for that first 10 minutes that opening, whether it would help me to explicitly rehearse and actually practice, practice what I'm saying out loud. It's funny enough, it's something that I used to do a lot when I was first learning to present and to deliver. ⁓ I think the more you, the more you do it, the more you, the, you, you kind of need to lean into that because you feel more confident. So there's potentially something, Yeah, around explicitly rehearsing as a strategies to, to help me. ⁓ third. I think links to what we were just talking about, was getting a sense of feedback, getting early feedback from my participants on their clarity. mean, there's maybe I'm just now there's maybe ways I can do that sometimes where I could explain something and maybe I could literally go, you know, based on what I've said, you know, how, you know, you know how you know, are you feeling how energized are you feeling for the rest of the session or how confident are you feeling with what I've just said to that we're going to be able to do something together and ask them a scale question in the chat. Give me a scale and maybe that gives me bit of initial feedback to give me the confidence that people have got it or they haven't got it and I need to re clarify something. So yeah, at the minute there's those three things that I hadn't really thought of before potentially some sort of warm up for myself. or mantra or something, some grounding. I think that's a nice word, grounding. Some number two, rehearsal of some sort, some explicit rehearsal for that, just that beginning part. And three, maybe looking at getting early feedback in the call so I can, yeah, so I can get a sense of my clarity.
Jim Thompson: love how you intentionally talk about rehearsal. It's ⁓ so great. That's a subject for a whole other show, know, Shane. ⁓ you're doing such good work about it. I'll wind up formal question here for our wonderful conference. Again, I thank you so much. Heartfelt thanks for this opportunity. ⁓ what might have you learned about yourself as a coach through this journey together?
Shane Leaning: Very passionate about that. So this has been very helpful for me, Jim, just I've got some actions and it sometimes, sometimes you can feel, even though as a coach, we talk about bringing hope into the world and taking a hopeful stance and thinking about possibility. And that's certainly a help my clients with. Sometimes I'm not my own, I don't follow my own advice so well. So I can feel. ⁓ you know, drained of hope sometimes and worry that, oh gosh, there's, you know, there's no answer. That's just who I am. That's, I can't get away out of that. And, and actually something that I'm really taking from this conversation, and I'm so thankful for you for guiding me through this, Jim, is a, it's a real sense of hope, but a sense of kind of grounded hope, not just kind of like, you know, a faith things might get better, but you know, like, I can understand there is a route towards getting better here. that's, yeah, that's left me feeling in quite a good place. And I'm just kind of, my other takeaway is we've just been chatting for like 20 minutes and I've just kind of, you've helped me to really figure something out for myself. I'm feeling really good at the minute and all this giving it the end of the day at 8.30 PM here in Shanghai. I am well, well chuffed, Tim. Thank you so much.
Jim Thompson: Well, the privilege was mine, Shane. The privilege was mine. know, Willem, that iconoclastic voice with the... formative assessment said the difference between effective teacher and a highly effective teacher is not what they know, but what they do, what they do. you know, I think this video just watching you and listening to you and feeling you what you do, what you do, how you feel and your intentionality to that just so marvelous. Could ask you a question to help me? Could I ask you a
Shane Leaning: Mmm. Ahem.
Jim Thompson: question to help me. Okay. I love the idea of a goal question. think if we don't have a goal, it's just a conversation. But you know, as we all try to get better and I try to get better as a coach in trying to not have blinders on all the time and maybe I need to expand the horizon.
Shane Leaning: Yes, please. Hmm.
Jim Thompson: Early question on is what goal did you identify to work on? And on a scale of one and that, I talk about your goals. I think that's purposeful and important. Shane, help me out. What if I, where and when would it be helpful if I shifted the discussion and replace the word goal with intention?
Shane Leaning: Hmm.
Jim Thompson: So instead of I'm saying what goal did you identify to work on earlier, I would say what intention did you identify to work on and where are you now with your intention versus goal? I don't have an easy answer there, but you're a good friend. So let's play around with that if you could with a way. Well, how do you feel about it? How do you respond with replacing the idea, the word goal with the word intention?
Shane Leaning: you Hmm I love that question by the way, Jim. And before I answer, I just, cause I've been fully focused in on this coach and conversation. I can see some people are joining us in online as well. And I would love to get their thoughts as well. can see Jason has, in fact, this is going to be great for our reflection. Cause Jason Boonton on LinkedIn has, has, has, has, has been narrating right the way through. And I'm looking forward to reading back through that Jason. Thank you so much. And I agree, he just finished with Jim's affirming body language, speaks more than words. And I really felt that. And he also with, doesn't this show that a coach needs a coach? ⁓ I definitely, I definitely feel that. And I've sensed the value. To your question, Jim, ⁓ really that. because a and an intention. in a way sound the same thing, but a goal is also a little bit to me. This is just to me, feels a little bit more fixed potentially. Like this is the goal and we have to ⁓ the goal. Like, you know, you're playing a football match and then ⁓ have to shoot and get the football in the goal. Like the goal is there. That's it. It's unchangeable. It is the goal. and that can feel quite intimidating. It can feel quite big, I think. Intention to me sounds the same as a goal. It's like setting an intention of where you want to go. What do you want to get? But as you were saying that, I thought I quite like that word in that it feels a little bit more tentative in a good way. It means there's a goal. There's a place we're going, but it's an intention. And I think your intentions can shift as you learn. And I quite like that idea that as you're kind of going towards that intention that your intention could slightly shift. And I think my intentions potentially did shift a little bit, even through our conversation towards how I was holding my need to be clear and towards the end thinking about not just my want to be clear, but also my wanting to test whether that clarity issue was an issue in the first place and to maybe do some checks. So my first thoughts are like the word intention quite a nice way to frame it. I'm curious to hear, Jim, like, where did this question come from for you and what's spinning your mind when ⁓ you it?
Jim Thompson: I appreciate that question. I have to give a big applause to Christian van Neuwerberg, who really surfaced that in his work kind of ⁓ me wrestle something because, ⁓ know, well, of course, we're just going to ask about your goal.
Shane Leaning: Ha ha ha ha ha.
Jim Thompson: And of course we're going to ask you about your goal. I'm like, yeah, well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. What's the difference between a goal and an intention? And when is it important to nuance into the conversation from the coachee, their intentionality? And then why is it important for us to surface that upfront? And maybe as a coach. I should surface that real early, real early in our relationship. I mean, we're just starting this relationship out, you know, ⁓ I think it's important to me to be honest and ⁓ forthwith, here are my intentions.
Shane Leaning: Mmm. ⁓
Jim Thompson: Here are my goals, but here are my intentions with this work with you. I think I need to be more intentional about maybe posing that question. And maybe along the line, you know, my coachee, inviting my coachee to talk about during our conversations about their intentions, not just their goals. What do you
Shane Leaning: Hmm. Yeah, I like, I really like that framing and I think it's resonates with others. know Jason who's joining us live has said he's also been thinking about the language of intention to Jim. it'd good to kind of get some others, some others thoughts on this. And I like the idea that, you you, you can share an intention as well, like throughout a conversation with the coach and that this can be. Yeah, and intentions as well. They don't have to be that big end goal as well. There can be intentions, know, in the way you show up in the conversation. There can be, you know, kind of other intentions around, you know, around the goal. Yeah, really like that. I'd like to reflect a little more than that. And people who are joining in live, please do post in your reflections on on that idea. ⁓ I'm Yeah, you've got me really thinking, thinking, Jim. And I'll be, I'll be totally honest with you, Jim, as well. Like I'm struggling to think right now because I'm very excited about some of those, those, some of those ideas that I've, that I've brainstormed for myself, for my intensive. Now that we've had this conversation, I'm desperate to get working on them too, which is a sign of a great coaching conversation.
Jim Thompson: you I love it. Let me just put a couple of things in my mind about questions, because this is always a question. Should you have a lot of questions, a bank of questions they ask, whatever. know, Jim Knight talks about Berger writes this about a great question. It's hard and interesting enough that it's worth answering and easy enough that one can actually answer it. Jim Knight says that great questions don't show off the coach's brilliance. but they can empower others to have brilliant insights, which you definitely did. And they affirm, foster hope and encourage others to see their strengths and successes. And then Christian van Neuwerberg in his work in Introduction to Coaching Skills says this, and I think this is important too. Very often, however, the most helpful question will emerge from a coachee's response a coach is listening intently enough.
Shane Leaning: Hmm.
Jim Thompson: So the power of listening here, isn't it? Say something about that, the power of listening for the coach.
Shane Leaning: Yes, I think that is so true, Jim, because, you know, you and I, you know, in our coaching practice, it can be so easy to just, you know, you have your questions and you kind of have the idea of the kind of questions you might want to ask. And sometimes you can get so with the question you're going to ask, you miss that bit of clarity that comes from the coachee and you miss ⁓ able to follow them in that direction. And I found as a coach sometimes I sometimes move it on prematurely and have done in the past in the conversation sometimes because I get worried. I start bringing myself into it and I start thinking, the coach is going to be thinking what's happening here. What the coach is going to be thinking. What, you know, come on, Shane, I'm, you know, I'm paying you or however it is, you know, come and coach me, coach me. And I feel a pressure to to intervene when sometimes the best thing we can do is to silent, to listen, and to ⁓ them to go with where they've just started to discover themselves. And I felt that I had the space in that conversation to ⁓ start generate some ideas for myself. But I also think that it comes from potentially I've got an advantage here haven't I Jim in that I know what it's like to coach. So I am also potentially a little bit more coachable maybe. And, you know, I coach a few people who are coaches themselves and, they tend to self coach a lot, which is a dream for a coach. But I do wonder like that there's a There's a lot of kind of priming work you would have to do with someone who's new to coaching to help to get them to trust into that conversation. And to understand that this conversation is not about the coach solving their challenges, but they are going to be able to pull a lot out for themselves. And that can be, if you've never experienced that before, that can be a bit of a leap of faith that you have to take together, I guess. What do you reckon?
Jim Thompson: I love that phrase, the priming work. mean, there's a chapter of a book there. Can I wind up here stealing from Michael Bungay's, Donnay's, the learning question chain and ask you what's been most useful for you during our ⁓ conversation this morning?
Shane Leaning: Yes. Yeah. It's going to sound cheesy, but it's, feels clear to me. It's being given the space to think in a way that I wouldn't normally think. And when I say given the space, what's great for me is that I could potentially have a lot of space in my day in that I work for myself. I'm, know, an independent, you know, coach, consultant, trainer, you know, I work, I work for myself and that is wonderful in that I can create space in the day. But I tend to fill my space with a lot of Jim, like, you know, whether that be scrolling videos that really don't need to scroll through, whether that just be kind of like, just, ⁓ just things that are not so, so productive. I think this is what's quite nice. And I have always liked that idea of coaches holding a space for you, ⁓ holding space for you to do some of your best thinking. And for me, I'm just so thankful today that you held that space for me, because if I didn't have that space held today, I wouldn't have been able to achieve some of those things. So Jim, you know, from the bottom of my heart, this ⁓ a demonstration live of the power of coaching. And I hope people listening in and watching in have felt something from that and seen that even just in a short conversation, a bit of reflection, watching yourself back and then being allowed to explore that, know, having someone hold that space for you is a, is a wonderfully powerful place. And I'm so grateful, Jim. Thank you so much.
Jim Thompson: Well, the pleasure is mine. know, the Heath brothers wrote that marvelous book, The Power of Moments. And these have been powerful moments for me and for you and maybe for your audience. Because think this really, we really ⁓ start serious ⁓ about to Jim Knight's great question, what does improvement look like? And I think part of that response is what we've done together this morning. What do you think, my friend?
Shane Leaning: 100%. I'm so grateful. I'm grateful to you, Jim. I'm grateful to those who are joining in with us online as well, to those who may be tuning on LinkedIn live or whether you listen back on the podcast and get a chance to re-listen to this. I know Jim, you were saying before the show, you're going to listen to this back yourself, right? There's a bit of self-reflection too.
Jim Thompson: Yeah, this is going to be, you know, our advanced coaching workshops that I work with this year with Greece Central School, and they're doing great things. I worked with Hilton and Casey for eight years and working that. But one of our advanced coaches, their big project is they have the video coaching conference and they that as their selfie to and we go through these questions to get better. And then we collectively find out what are their goals. What are their intentions as a coach? How do they want to get better? And that's our professional development then for the next workshops we kind of roll up our sleeves together in helping them with mindsets, strategies, techniques where we not only acquaint, but as a coach, we model and then we invite ⁓ coachee to rehearse. And that's a long-term goal. That's a long-term goal, but that's kind of what, and that's what I've got to do. So this is gonna help me get better because that's what we're all about is getting better, right?
Shane Leaning: Absolutely. That's why it's called coaching done well. And, this has just been absolutely marvelous. What an absolute treat, Jim Thompson. Thank you so much again. Thank you for everyone joining in. have got, an amazing season, ahead of conversations. We'll be back, ⁓ next month, with, ⁓ a few ⁓ very good with some really interesting people, but also let us know. Please send us a message. you liked this kind of episode, if you thought this was useful to us, tell us about it. Let's do some more of this. Like if you fancy being coached live on the show, send us a message. Come and join us on the show. This is what it's about. We absolutely love this community and we love to grow and learn together and we'd love to have you a part of it. So if you're listening, gosh, I'd love to do a bit of that or I'd love to get involved or I'd love to see more of that. Get in touch. Jim, this has been wonderful. Have an amazing. rest of the day, my friend. It's the end of the day here and I will see you next time.
Jim Thompson: Benetree, Benetree, Ben and honor. Thanks to our listeners out there. We're so thankful that you're your fans to this show. We're so thankful for this community that we gather in together.
Shane Leaning: Take care everyone.
Jim Thompson: Well, Shane, I'm just delighted to be here with you as always with you today, especially for episode, which really responds to Jim Knight's great question, what does improvement look like? Kind of a sneak preview. I think we've not really been doing a good job for like decades upon decades responding to him, but I think we've got ⁓ some thoughts to share today. You know, I always talk about the weather. It's been a tough winter in upstate New York, but next week we're supposed to be in the 60s. March is a crazy month for us. We can have blizzards and we can have 60 degree days. So I'm hoping for more 60 degree days, my friend. How's the weather in Shanghai these days?
Shane Leaning: Yeah, this it's it's okay. We're coming into a bit of a wet, wet season, we got a bit of rain at the minute, but the and the weather is up and down here. And for those who not been to China, ⁓ the seasons in China are very interesting in that you kind of have this moment where it goes, winter, winter, winter, winter, and then you have a glitchy season where it just goes winter, summer, winter, summer, winter, summer, can't make his decide up mind up.
Jim Thompson: Hey.
Shane Leaning: and then it makes the switch. Whereas I'm used to back in the UK, this wonderful, smooth, gradual, know, dance through the seasons. I do miss that actually. Miss the colors on the trees.
Jim Thompson: I hear you know, we have the crazy weather here. The favorite phrase in Western New York, if you don't like the weather, wait five minutes, you know, and we can't go all the time.
Shane Leaning: Ha ha ha ha. I like that. that. Well, Jim, this is ⁓ a delight and ⁓ to everyone who's joining us live because I know a lot of people ⁓ us live, whether you are joining on Riverside or you're joining on LinkedIn live, it is a pleasure to have you here. ⁓ can already see dear friend of the show, ⁓ Booth and saying, hi guys. Good to be with you live today. It is such an honor to have you not only come on the show, Jason, but also Join in with us on these weeks. This is just what a, what a delight. And you know, to, to usually we're speaking with amazing people working in the coaching space, um, around the world. And we're going to continue to do that. But today we've got something a little bit different and I just kind of wanted to start at Jim. If you didn't mind, I've got Jim's, um, brilliant book here, video coaching done well, which I had the the honor of the forward to you and Casey ⁓ with wrote this brilliant book. And ⁓ wonder, Jim, if you would mind if I just read a couple of paragraphs here, just to remind me what I said, because this takes me back to a moment on the forward of the book. I when this came out, this is a book about transformation, ⁓ not grand sweeping kind that promises big results in an instant, ⁓ but accessible. Meaningful kind, which starts with just a few minutes of video and honest reflection. And I experienced this firsthand during a coaching session with Jim Thompson himself. In just 20 minutes, he created a space where I could explore my patterns, identify goals and feel genuinely empowered to take next steps. this experience formed part of a wider shift in my understanding of what effective coaching should be. And, ⁓ Jim, I remember that very well. This was one of the first episodes of our coaching done well, where you coached me online. And that was a really wonderful experience. So we thought, why not do it again? Because we got a lot of good feedback back then. A lot of people want to see coaching in practice. ⁓ a vulnerable moment for us both, Jim, you being coached, me being coachee to put ourselves out there. But I guess we thought it was important to do, right? We thought this would be something that would be Great to share with others out there. What do you think?
Jim Thompson: Well, agreed, you know, and it is all about connection and I need some thank yous before turn it over you to kind of give an overview of what's going to happen. But first of all, thank you, Shane. I thank you for being a trailblazer, a pioneer in ⁓ to get better. What does improvement look like? It asks people to their trust and their vulnerability. A thank you to Jim Knight for his for his seminal book on this several years back, video coaching inspired Casey and I to write our books and thank you. Your forward was brilliant. Thanks to Ted Lasso for the comment, ⁓ to stay curious, but not judgemental. If somebody were to ask me what are essential characteristics of an effective coaches, they encourage people to stay curious and not be judgemental. Thanks to Michael Bungay Stanyay, where we ⁓ us to stay curious longer, stay curious longer. To ⁓ the Meg Wheatley, where we to one another with simple conversations to restore hope in the future. My God, if we need, if there isn't a time to help us restore hope in the future, I don't know what the time is, but these. return to simple conversations. Hammond, where we emulate the pedagogy of listening. then one, I'll line this up before I turn over to the fabulous Brene Brown. Because it's about connection, isn't it? Reminds us that is why we're here. We're hardwired to connect with others. It's what gives us purpose and meaning to our lives. And without it, there is suffering. So if nothing else this morning, today, this evening in Shanghai this morning in Western New York, we want to invite, nourish, cheerlead, advocate, cherish connection. So thanks for that. That's kind of my, what's my two cents right now. Let me turn it over to you to kind of give us that macro view of what's going to happen.
Shane Leaning: For sure. And thank you, Jim. I'm thankful for for putting this together and for all those years ago ⁓ suggesting that we might even venture into this space together and to bring some of these conversations to people. Gosh, I'm so glad we did. So a bit different, we've got our viewers joining in. Please say hi in the chat if you are there and comment as we go on what you find. ⁓ interesting or challenging or what you're reflecting on what your own practice and we'll try bring your voices in. But what we're going to do today ⁓ Jim has kindly agreed to ⁓ me today, is brilliant and using his approach of video coaching. So Jim and I are both pretty strong advocates of the power ⁓ of We think everyone should be video in themselves. doing something, watching it back and asking some powerful questions. And we advocate this for a lot. You'll have seen if you're joining live on our little intro, we talk about the eight minute challenge and what if you just filmed yourself at eight minutes? What could you discover from filming that meeting that you're leading, filming that part of the class that you've been having, filming that bit of professional development that you were delivering, whatever it is you do. reflecting back on that and how could that help you improve your practice? And we wouldn't just, um, preach this without doing it ourselves. So we're going to have a go at doing it ourselves. I, um, for a bit of context for people out there, I'm currently leading a program called the education leaders intensive, which is a, an intensive program where I'm working with 18 incredible leaders across the world, supporting them to master 10 fundamentals leadership levers together. And we meet every week. We do a lot of reflection together. And so this is the first cohort of this. And I thought, well, this would be a wonderful, a wonderful thing for me to reflect on. So I recorded myself in my last session. And what I've done is I chose the first 10 minutes to have a bit of reflect on my practice to see if watching myself back and getting asked questions by Jim could help me potentially to improve my practice and more importantly to improve the experience for those that I'm serving, which are those brilliant leaders. So Jim, I am in your hands for the next 20 minutes or however long we go and I'm... really looking forward to this process. Thank you so much for facilitating it.
Jim Thompson: Shane, first of I want to thank you. do not take it lightly that when you invite somebody to trust and to be vulnerable with you. This doesn't overnight. It's a journey. a journey, you know, and so first, thank you so very much. But my first question and reflection question that I invite you to reflect on is Shane, what should I know about the folks you're working with in this video? there a story you'd like to share about them?
Shane Leaning: ⁓ Jim, I like that question. It's not often you get asked a question to share the story. So I am currently working with 18 incredible leaders right across the world. And the interesting thing is that these are some of the most open willingly people I've worked with ⁓ in they've signed up to a program. There's people of various levels here. I've not just done a program just for middle leaders or just for executive leaders. I've got in one program, some new department leads who've just been leading for a year. I've got on the same program, experienced principals. I've got university lecturers. I've got system level leaders who lead across groups of schools. And what's really interesting is each one of those people has decided that they want to take this program because there is still room for growth and there is still room for them to become better versions of themselves and to be better for their communities. And I can't help but be totally inspired that that diversity of leaders would decide to come on a journey with me to improve their practice. That's really inspires me to make this program the best it can possibly be.
Jim Thompson: Shane, just, I can read from your body language. can read from the sparkle in your eyes that you kind of are in the zone with this work. ⁓ I just ask a, can I add on question? What gives you the most energy from this work with these people?
Shane Leaning: you So gives me energy is that I there is ⁓ a that ⁓ across the world that leadership looks a certain thing. This is what good leadership looks like. ⁓ This is what good leader do. And I think therefore it means ⁓ so many people into the caricatures of leadership. really puts fire in my belly about this work is that I think leaders come genuinely all shapes and sizes and personalities and backgrounds. ⁓ in my experience, and not been proven wrong yet in my experience, that is a enriching thing for the people who ⁓ work with And I therefore very passionate about my mission to support these leaders from all sorts of backgrounds to become the great leaders I know that they can become and not just some copy, know, Kate Cutter version of a leader. And good knows there's so many bad examples of leaders out in the world right there, right now. And actually looking inside and looking at your own values. This just, yeah, this is what gives me gives me the spark seeing people be able to become, to stay themselves, but become those better versions of themselves that they want to be. just, you know, what a, what a, ⁓ a beautiful mission to be involved in.
Jim Thompson: That is inspiring, my friend. I mean, that is inspiring. But talk about and we'll talk maybe later on about that intentionality, the intention you're bringing to all this. We'll talk more about that later. But thank you for that. ⁓ so let's go on to the question. goal did you identify? reflecting on this video to work on and maybe talk a little bit about if you could why it's it go important to you and how do you think reaching it might advance the success and well-being of those that you work with.
Shane Leaning: So I chose to watch just the first 10 minutes back of my session where I kind of opened my latest session. And in that session, just for context, I was teaching, coaching around the idea of how to run an effective meeting. that kind of the area that we were looking at. And ⁓ I back, I noticed something which was interesting. So As I mentioned, this cohort is the first cohort of this program that I've delivered. And therefore I've been researching this course for the last year and doing a lot of work into researching it, into testing it. But it means it's the very first time I've delivered this content as it is, as it is packaged. although I am a comfortable public speaker, ⁓ know, I have... my podcast, I work with you on this podcast, I'm comfortable stood on a stage and working with teachers. I deliver new content, I think I have a tendency to ramble a little bit Jim. ⁓ I noticed in this first 10 minute opening that I very, ⁓ know, bit rambly. was a bit, ⁓ there was of ums. and as and likes and lots of filler words that I was using. I felt like watching it back, I could feel myself going, come on, Shane, get to the point. This is not, this is leaders giving their time. And this was, you you being more succinct be, would be more useful for their time. So ⁓ I wondered if goal to ⁓ work towards that love to work is how can I become a little bit more. clear and succinct how I'm delivering this new content to who I'm working with. I don't know that makes sense to you, Jim.
Jim Thompson: You know, I hear you and I empathize with you because that's what, know, me too when I videos of myself talk about empathy, you know, with that. ⁓ But I appreciate that vulnerability and that candor right off from the start, my friend. It's not easy and we're doing this live and invite somebody to say, OK, ⁓ is kind of what we're talking about. ⁓
Shane Leaning: Yeah. Yeah.
Jim Thompson: I appreciate it and I do not take it for granted the trust that we're developing and continue to develop where, you know, your candor just comes right out. So I appreciate that so much. It goes on next to that scale on a scale one to 10 Shane. Where do you think you are right now with this goal working on it? are you right now?
Shane Leaning: Thanks, Jim. Thanks, Jim. Oh, good question. And to build on your point that you just said, just for the context for listeners listening in, we haven't rehearsed this conversation like this is, this is the live coaching conversation, just in case you're wondering whether we just kind of risked, you know, planned it out. So we haven't. So where am I at the beginning at the minute on a scale of one to 10 for my clarity and I think. You know, I think I would put myself at five or a six out of 10 at the minute. It's not like it's not awful, but it's yeah, there's a lot of room to grow. think a five or six probably when watching back. Thank
Jim Thompson: What do you think is single biggest challenge to taking the first steps to advancing your goal right now? What do you believe, honestly, in your heart and your head? ⁓ your biggest challenge right now to moving on to those next steps to advance the goal?
Shane Leaning: I think one of the biggest challenges is that this is new content in terms of I'm delivering this content packaged in this way for the first time. So I think there is a There is a confidence. challenge in it in feeling that I'm confident. know I speak before I do these sessions. I care deeply. I, you know, I speak to my wife, Emma, before, and I'm always thinking, I always say to her the same thing. She must be sick of it. I'm always like, no, this is going to be the worst one yet. Like, I know I'm not, I'm not ready for this. I'm a broken record with that. I know I repeat the same pattern. So I think there's sometimes a, confidence issue there, which can potentially get in the way of delivering with clarity and confidence, especially at the start. I actually feel like when I saw like later on, I relax into it and I feel a lot better. So like once I'm in, but at that very beginning, I'm definitely more in that less confidence zone. So I feel like that's potentially a blocker and I'm, I'm not relaxed into the session at the beginning. And so that's less efficient.
Jim Thompson: Again, I appreciate your candor and your thoughts on this so much, Shane, here. again, next, go to the money question, the money question, because I'm not going to ask you first, what would you be doing differently as a coach if this were a 10? I'm going to ask you what I think is the far more important question. What would your coachees be doing differently if we're moving towards a 10?
Shane Leaning: Oh, I love this question. And I love this question particularly because as I'm watching, I'm reflecting just on myself. And the reason I've said it as a goal is because I want the experience to be better for the leaders who are on the programs, I'm privileged to work with and support, mentor and coach. For them, at the beginning, I think... At the start of these sessions, I'd like them to feel. excited. I'd like them to feel and anticipating a good session ahead. I'd like them to feel held and safe. Like we're in, you know, they're in safe hands. I think, you know, you're going into a couple of hours session where you're going to have to practice things and I want them to feel safe. And I think sometimes if I feel like I'm being dithery, potentially means that we've not got this fully settled start where everyone feels. ⁓ Um, yeah, held and safe in the session. So I think if I were to be a bit closer to a 10 in my goal, I would hope that participants on the course would feel. ⁓ a sense of comfort, safety, and kind of readiness to learn. mean, they've all been coming generally from busy days. We do this at 5 PM my time, you know, so they've had busy days. So there's something needed for them at the beginning. And I think if I was more clear more in what I'm saying, they might feel, a lot more safe and clear about how this session is gonna work for them and therefore excited to kind of lean in in the vulnerable ways I need them to.
Jim Thompson: I love it. And not to put you on the spot right now, we had subsequent conversations. Here's a question I'd add on, but not to put you on the spot, but something we've got to think about is our dialogue is ⁓ might you measure that? How much you measure that?
Shane Leaning: that's a really good question too. ⁓ So. Well, yeah, that question is so important, isn't it, Jim? Because it's, you can put things in place and actually, you know, you've got no way to know whether they work or not. And actually that measurement question is so important for me in this situation. I think potentially the way I would measure it would be in a couple of ways, usually very early on in the... in the session, ⁓ are online sessions, by the way. ⁓ I ask people a question or a reflection and I try to get a bit of very initial feedback. And I have noticed at the beginning of these sessions, less people are willing to offer. So I think I would probably notice that a few more people would be offering things, offering thoughts and ideas sooner in ⁓ the... in the session, like whether that be through the chat box or whether that be by asking a question or sharing a reflection in some way. I think that's probably one way that I would see that. And I could probably measure that because I could ⁓ go back and see ⁓ many people get involved in previous sessions and see ⁓ if it's measurably improving in that way. That would be, I mean, that's one way that comes to me, but I'm sure there's others that I would also. think about and that's a good one for me to dwell on Jim.
Jim Thompson: I appreciate that not meaning to put you on the spot, but I think as you said, that's a key ingredient to getting better with our goals. I appreciate that. You've already reiterated or said some things about in this great answer what you as a coach would be doing differently. Any additional thought or two as a coach, what you might be specifically doing differently to advance that good goal of yours?
Shane Leaning: I think as a coach, would be calm. would be collected. I would be warm and I would be confident in how I'm articulating what's to come in the course. I can just imagine for myself if I was a better place at the beginning of the call, what I think I would be showing up, you'd probably I'd probably see it in my body language that I'd be a bit more rested. I'd maybe ⁓ it in the way that I was talking, maybe the amount that I was smiling. But also I think there would be a real clarity how I'm. presenting rather than like, because I think if I was to reflect, I'm listening to myself now. I'm in reflective mode at the minute. So this is useful. There's a lot of thinking pauses and there's a lot of me kind of, you know, kind of doing this and kind of thinking. And I think this works really well in this situation. But at the start of a session where you've got 18 leaders waiting for you to kind of to support them, potentially there's a there's a different stance that I would be taking and that would be something that would be more calm, more welcoming, more encouraging, confident, energizing. That's the coach I would like to be at the start of those calls.
Jim Thompson: I love it. Could I ask the extension question within a question here? What's on your mind when you mention that word clarity? What's on your mind?
Shane Leaning: Yeah. Clarity for me is... is being able to explain things in not too many words not ⁓ to dance a topic. And I think when I'm delivering something have, this is occurring to me now actually, Jim, because your question. When I'm delivering something new, sometimes I ⁓ am nervous that person who's listening is not gonna get me. Like I'm delivering this new and there's a risk that you're not understanding. ⁓ So I think. subconsciously I start to overcompensate by trying to over explain things and and keep going, you know, and and like I'm doing now really like just I feel like I need to say more to fill this space because I'm looking at you and I'm not quite sure that you're understanding and maybe that's actually maybe this is bringing up an idea of maybe my feedback loop needs to be better in terms of getting feedback from people as to as to how well they're understanding at the beginning what I'm doing, because I'm just making that up in my head at the minute.
Jim Thompson: I love that this idea of clarity gets, I love how you were thinking out loud about it. I think we need to do more thinking out loud and conferences together and partnership because, know, a dialogue is not two monologues. I appreciate that. Shane, you have any strategies or mindsets in mind right now to kind of advance that goal? Is there something popping in your mind when you want to advance that goal or mindset?
Shane Leaning: Yes.
Jim Thompson: that you've connected with or a strategy you'd like to know more about or refine more. Any thoughts of that right now?
Shane Leaning: So I'm thinking a few things that are coming up to me now, that we've been speaking, I'm thinking one, is there something I could do before these sessions to ground myself and bring myself into a place of confidence, whether that be, whether that be, ⁓ some sort of mantra for myself, whether it be ⁓ some some sort of something that I can just review before to kind of give myself a presence or whether it just be to meditate for a few minutes or something that just helps just to ground me a little. This is kind of one of the first things I'm thinking about. I'm thinking of whether it would be useful. I mean, I review my sessions a lot before I deliver them, but I'm wondering if for that first 10 minutes that opening, whether it would help me to explicitly rehearse and actually practice, practice what I'm saying out loud. It's funny enough, it's something that I used to do a lot when I was first learning to present and to deliver. ⁓ I think the more you, the more you do it, the more you, the, you, you kind of need to lean into that because you feel more confident. So there's potentially something, Yeah, around explicitly rehearsing as a strategies to, to help me. ⁓ third. I think links to what we were just talking about, was getting a sense of feedback, getting early feedback from my participants on their clarity. mean, there's maybe I'm just now there's maybe ways I can do that sometimes where I could explain something and maybe I could literally go, you know, based on what I've said, you know, how, you know, you know how you know, are you feeling how energized are you feeling for the rest of the session or how confident are you feeling with what I've just said to that we're going to be able to do something together and ask them a scale question in the chat. Give me a scale and maybe that gives me bit of initial feedback to give me the confidence that people have got it or they haven't got it and I need to re clarify something. So yeah, at the minute there's those three things that I hadn't really thought of before potentially some sort of warm up for myself. or mantra or something, some grounding. I think that's a nice word, grounding. Some number two, rehearsal of some sort, some explicit rehearsal for that, just that beginning part. And three, maybe looking at getting early feedback in the call so I can, yeah, so I can get a sense of my clarity.
Jim Thompson: love how you intentionally talk about rehearsal. It's ⁓ so great. That's a subject for a whole other show, know, Shane. ⁓ you're doing such good work about it. I'll wind up formal question here for our wonderful conference. Again, I thank you so much. Heartfelt thanks for this opportunity. ⁓ what might have you learned about yourself as a coach through this journey together?
Shane Leaning: Very passionate about that. So this has been very helpful for me, Jim, just I've got some actions and it sometimes, sometimes you can feel, even though as a coach, we talk about bringing hope into the world and taking a hopeful stance and thinking about possibility. And that's certainly a help my clients with. Sometimes I'm not my own, I don't follow my own advice so well. So I can feel. ⁓ you know, drained of hope sometimes and worry that, oh gosh, there's, you know, there's no answer. That's just who I am. That's, I can't get away out of that. And, and actually something that I'm really taking from this conversation, and I'm so thankful for you for guiding me through this, Jim, is a, it's a real sense of hope, but a sense of kind of grounded hope, not just kind of like, you know, a faith things might get better, but you know, like, I can understand there is a route towards getting better here. that's, yeah, that's left me feeling in quite a good place. And I'm just kind of, my other takeaway is we've just been chatting for like 20 minutes and I've just kind of, you've helped me to really figure something out for myself. I'm feeling really good at the minute and all this giving it the end of the day at 8.30 PM here in Shanghai. I am well, well chuffed, Tim. Thank you so much.
Jim Thompson: Well, the privilege was mine, Shane. The privilege was mine. know, Willem, that iconoclastic voice with the... formative assessment said the difference between effective teacher and a highly effective teacher is not what they know, but what they do, what they do. you know, I think this video just watching you and listening to you and feeling you what you do, what you do, how you feel and your intentionality to that just so marvelous. Could ask you a question to help me? Could I ask you a
Shane Leaning: Mmm. Ahem.
Jim Thompson: question to help me. Okay. I love the idea of a goal question. think if we don't have a goal, it's just a conversation. But you know, as we all try to get better and I try to get better as a coach in trying to not have blinders on all the time and maybe I need to expand the horizon.
Shane Leaning: Yes, please. Hmm.
Jim Thompson: Early question on is what goal did you identify to work on? And on a scale of one and that, I talk about your goals. I think that's purposeful and important. Shane, help me out. What if I, where and when would it be helpful if I shifted the discussion and replace the word goal with intention?
Shane Leaning: Hmm.
Jim Thompson: So instead of I'm saying what goal did you identify to work on earlier, I would say what intention did you identify to work on and where are you now with your intention versus goal? I don't have an easy answer there, but you're a good friend. So let's play around with that if you could with a way. Well, how do you feel about it? How do you respond with replacing the idea, the word goal with the word intention?
Shane Leaning: you Hmm I love that question by the way, Jim. And before I answer, I just, cause I've been fully focused in on this coach and conversation. I can see some people are joining us in online as well. And I would love to get their thoughts as well. can see Jason has, in fact, this is going to be great for our reflection. Cause Jason Boonton on LinkedIn has, has, has, has, has been narrating right the way through. And I'm looking forward to reading back through that Jason. Thank you so much. And I agree, he just finished with Jim's affirming body language, speaks more than words. And I really felt that. And he also with, doesn't this show that a coach needs a coach? ⁓ I definitely, I definitely feel that. And I've sensed the value. To your question, Jim, ⁓ really that. because a and an intention. in a way sound the same thing, but a goal is also a little bit to me. This is just to me, feels a little bit more fixed potentially. Like this is the goal and we have to ⁓ the goal. Like, you know, you're playing a football match and then ⁓ have to shoot and get the football in the goal. Like the goal is there. That's it. It's unchangeable. It is the goal. and that can feel quite intimidating. It can feel quite big, I think. Intention to me sounds the same as a goal. It's like setting an intention of where you want to go. What do you want to get? But as you were saying that, I thought I quite like that word in that it feels a little bit more tentative in a good way. It means there's a goal. There's a place we're going, but it's an intention. And I think your intentions can shift as you learn. And I quite like that idea that as you're kind of going towards that intention that your intention could slightly shift. And I think my intentions potentially did shift a little bit, even through our conversation towards how I was holding my need to be clear and towards the end thinking about not just my want to be clear, but also my wanting to test whether that clarity issue was an issue in the first place and to maybe do some checks. So my first thoughts are like the word intention quite a nice way to frame it. I'm curious to hear, Jim, like, where did this question come from for you and what's spinning your mind when ⁓ you it?
Jim Thompson: I appreciate that question. I have to give a big applause to Christian van Neuwerberg, who really surfaced that in his work kind of ⁓ me wrestle something because, ⁓ know, well, of course, we're just going to ask about your goal.
Shane Leaning: Ha ha ha ha ha.
Jim Thompson: And of course we're going to ask you about your goal. I'm like, yeah, well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. What's the difference between a goal and an intention? And when is it important to nuance into the conversation from the coachee, their intentionality? And then why is it important for us to surface that upfront? And maybe as a coach. I should surface that real early, real early in our relationship. I mean, we're just starting this relationship out, you know, ⁓ I think it's important to me to be honest and ⁓ forthwith, here are my intentions.
Shane Leaning: Mmm. ⁓
Jim Thompson: Here are my goals, but here are my intentions with this work with you. I think I need to be more intentional about maybe posing that question. And maybe along the line, you know, my coachee, inviting my coachee to talk about during our conversations about their intentions, not just their goals. What do you
Shane Leaning: Hmm. Yeah, I like, I really like that framing and I think it's resonates with others. know Jason who's joining us live has said he's also been thinking about the language of intention to Jim. it'd good to kind of get some others, some others thoughts on this. And I like the idea that, you you, you can share an intention as well, like throughout a conversation with the coach and that this can be. Yeah, and intentions as well. They don't have to be that big end goal as well. There can be intentions, know, in the way you show up in the conversation. There can be, you know, kind of other intentions around, you know, around the goal. Yeah, really like that. I'd like to reflect a little more than that. And people who are joining in live, please do post in your reflections on on that idea. ⁓ I'm Yeah, you've got me really thinking, thinking, Jim. And I'll be, I'll be totally honest with you, Jim, as well. Like I'm struggling to think right now because I'm very excited about some of those, those, some of those ideas that I've, that I've brainstormed for myself, for my intensive. Now that we've had this conversation, I'm desperate to get working on them too, which is a sign of a great coaching conversation.
Jim Thompson: you I love it. Let me just put a couple of things in my mind about questions, because this is always a question. Should you have a lot of questions, a bank of questions they ask, whatever. know, Jim Knight talks about Berger writes this about a great question. It's hard and interesting enough that it's worth answering and easy enough that one can actually answer it. Jim Knight says that great questions don't show off the coach's brilliance. but they can empower others to have brilliant insights, which you definitely did. And they affirm, foster hope and encourage others to see their strengths and successes. And then Christian van Neuwerberg in his work in Introduction to Coaching Skills says this, and I think this is important too. Very often, however, the most helpful question will emerge from a coachee's response a coach is listening intently enough.
Shane Leaning: Hmm.
Jim Thompson: So the power of listening here, isn't it? Say something about that, the power of listening for the coach.
Shane Leaning: Yes, I think that is so true, Jim, because, you know, you and I, you know, in our coaching practice, it can be so easy to just, you know, you have your questions and you kind of have the idea of the kind of questions you might want to ask. And sometimes you can get so with the question you're going to ask, you miss that bit of clarity that comes from the coachee and you miss ⁓ able to follow them in that direction. And I found as a coach sometimes I sometimes move it on prematurely and have done in the past in the conversation sometimes because I get worried. I start bringing myself into it and I start thinking, the coach is going to be thinking what's happening here. What the coach is going to be thinking. What, you know, come on, Shane, I'm, you know, I'm paying you or however it is, you know, come and coach me, coach me. And I feel a pressure to to intervene when sometimes the best thing we can do is to silent, to listen, and to ⁓ them to go with where they've just started to discover themselves. And I felt that I had the space in that conversation to ⁓ start generate some ideas for myself. But I also think that it comes from potentially I've got an advantage here haven't I Jim in that I know what it's like to coach. So I am also potentially a little bit more coachable maybe. And, you know, I coach a few people who are coaches themselves and, they tend to self coach a lot, which is a dream for a coach. But I do wonder like that there's a There's a lot of kind of priming work you would have to do with someone who's new to coaching to help to get them to trust into that conversation. And to understand that this conversation is not about the coach solving their challenges, but they are going to be able to pull a lot out for themselves. And that can be, if you've never experienced that before, that can be a bit of a leap of faith that you have to take together, I guess. What do you reckon?
Jim Thompson: I love that phrase, the priming work. mean, there's a chapter of a book there. Can I wind up here stealing from Michael Bungay's, Donnay's, the learning question chain and ask you what's been most useful for you during our ⁓ conversation this morning?
Shane Leaning: Yes. Yeah. It's going to sound cheesy, but it's, feels clear to me. It's being given the space to think in a way that I wouldn't normally think. And when I say given the space, what's great for me is that I could potentially have a lot of space in my day in that I work for myself. I'm, know, an independent, you know, coach, consultant, trainer, you know, I work, I work for myself and that is wonderful in that I can create space in the day. But I tend to fill my space with a lot of Jim, like, you know, whether that be scrolling videos that really don't need to scroll through, whether that just be kind of like, just, ⁓ just things that are not so, so productive. I think this is what's quite nice. And I have always liked that idea of coaches holding a space for you, ⁓ holding space for you to do some of your best thinking. And for me, I'm just so thankful today that you held that space for me, because if I didn't have that space held today, I wouldn't have been able to achieve some of those things. So Jim, you know, from the bottom of my heart, this ⁓ a demonstration live of the power of coaching. And I hope people listening in and watching in have felt something from that and seen that even just in a short conversation, a bit of reflection, watching yourself back and then being allowed to explore that, know, having someone hold that space for you is a, is a wonderfully powerful place. And I'm so grateful, Jim. Thank you so much.
Jim Thompson: Well, the pleasure is mine. know, the Heath brothers wrote that marvelous book, The Power of Moments. And these have been powerful moments for me and for you and maybe for your audience. Because think this really, we really ⁓ start serious ⁓ about to Jim Knight's great question, what does improvement look like? And I think part of that response is what we've done together this morning. What do you think, my friend?
Shane Leaning: 100%. I'm so grateful. I'm grateful to you, Jim. I'm grateful to those who are joining in with us online as well, to those who may be tuning on LinkedIn live or whether you listen back on the podcast and get a chance to re-listen to this. I know Jim, you were saying before the show, you're going to listen to this back yourself, right? There's a bit of self-reflection too.
Jim Thompson: Yeah, this is going to be, you know, our advanced coaching workshops that I work with this year with Greece Central School, and they're doing great things. I worked with Hilton and Casey for eight years and working that. But one of our advanced coaches, their big project is they have the video coaching conference and they that as their selfie to and we go through these questions to get better. And then we collectively find out what are their goals. What are their intentions as a coach? How do they want to get better? And that's our professional development then for the next workshops we kind of roll up our sleeves together in helping them with mindsets, strategies, techniques where we not only acquaint, but as a coach, we model and then we invite ⁓ coachee to rehearse. And that's a long-term goal. That's a long-term goal, but that's kind of what, and that's what I've got to do. So this is gonna help me get better because that's what we're all about is getting better, right?
Shane Leaning: Absolutely. That's why it's called coaching done well. And, this has just been absolutely marvelous. What an absolute treat, Jim Thompson. Thank you so much again. Thank you for everyone joining in. have got, an amazing season, ahead of conversations. We'll be back, ⁓ next month, with, ⁓ a few ⁓ very good with some really interesting people, but also let us know. Please send us a message. you liked this kind of episode, if you thought this was useful to us, tell us about it. Let's do some more of this. Like if you fancy being coached live on the show, send us a message. Come and join us on the show. This is what it's about. We absolutely love this community and we love to grow and learn together and we'd love to have you a part of it. So if you're listening, gosh, I'd love to do a bit of that or I'd love to get involved or I'd love to see more of that. Get in touch. Jim, this has been wonderful. Have an amazing. rest of the day, my friend. It's the end of the day here and I will see you next time.
Jim Thompson: Benetree, Benetree, Ben and honor. Thanks to our listeners out there. We're so thankful that you're your fans to this show. We're so thankful for this community that we gather in together.
Shane Leaning: Take care everyone.
