Marit Welker: Mickey her journey through estrangement, the lessons she's learned, and the ways that God has supported her in this experience. Mickey, tell us about yourself.
Mickey Woolery: Well, first of all, thank you, Marit for inviting me on I'm excited to be here. I'm a mom of three biological children and one adopted daughter. ⁓ never thought I would ever find myself in a place of estrangement with any of my children. But it just happened to be about ⁓ four, five years ago where my youngest son decided that ⁓ he no longer wanted ties with any of our family. ⁓ friends, relatives, cousins, mom, dad, all of us. so ⁓ didn't, I mean, at first it hit me pretty hard, but it didn't me as hard as I think it would have been if had it just been just me in the family. And I that sounds selfish. but knowing that ⁓ he decided just like basically discard the entirety of his family. not that it, ⁓ it makes it really but it made me feel, less singled out, like I had done something so horrifically wrong to make him make this decision, ⁓ So I ⁓ was to eliminate ⁓ the singled out mom was chosen just to be ⁓ estranged by ⁓ their ⁓ But thing I've is ⁓ in the beginning, it devastating. ⁓ It floored me. Even my oldest daughters. ⁓
Marit Welker: Yes.
Mickey Woolery: They used to complain and say, you know, why is he your favorite? know, maybe he's your favorite and you always coddle him and favor him. And they used to be jealous and stuff. when they were younger and now that they're older, they look back and they're like, mom, I don't understand, you know, how, how as close as you guys were that something like this could happen. They still don't even get it to this day. It just, blows their mind. my daughter said, mom, I'm so sorry, because I know how much this is hurting you. it was a comfort, it's still, ⁓ you know, that she recognizes the pain ⁓ that we as parents. When our parents, or when our children decide to get up ⁓ and no be part of your family, part of your life, it's really reckoning. So the first year or so, I was a him, calling him, crying and crying and crying and ⁓ know, because your heart's just broken and ⁓ always go through your whole, your whole history with that child. Like where did I make the mistake? What did I do wrong? What could I have done better? And we know that children do not come with a handbook. ⁓ when they come out, you know, we just, you know, we have to take it for what it is and run with it. ⁓ there's trials and tribulations with everything God says is doesn't say it's gonna be easy, but ⁓ you just have to make the best of it, you know, make do. And was super close with my son. Me and my son had this really special bond. ⁓ could joke around. He was the easiest child too. I thought, man, I so blessed, cause he's just so easy. Like ⁓ he would see my get in trouble and he'd be like, I don't want none of that. ⁓ I'm just gonna be And he just was good, you know? And ⁓ he was sweet. ⁓ cuddly and and ⁓ we would hang out and spend mom and son time together all the time. He would take me places and he would drive me places and when he got older, he was responsible was is a good really good worker. So everything was like turning out perfectly for me. You know, I was like, ⁓ my gosh, my kids are so amazing. I love them. So proud of them and I still am proud of them. That will never go away. I don't think for anybody that goes away. ⁓ Even though sometimes when the disappointment comes. That doesn't leave us, that part of it. All the good stuff doesn't go away. But I know with my son, I was devastated, ⁓ was sick. ⁓ I ⁓ literally over it. ⁓ And my was like, ⁓ mom, we're here. ⁓ And then was like, ⁓ gosh, I was mourning much. like, I was not even paying attention to the children I still had. ⁓
Marit Welker: Agreed.
Mickey Woolery: until my daughter said, hey, I'm still in the picture. I'm still here, Mom. I understand you're hurting, but I'm still here. And I'm glad she was able to say that and recognize it and be open with me because we don't know what we're doing when we're going through this. So we need people to give us some guidance and help. And like what you do, you help people to get through these situations. And I had already ⁓ lost my mom. And then, and then now I lost my son. And so, you know, I was in just kind of a dark place, but I had to literally lean on God. And where I want to encourage people that are walking in this is he wants you to lean on him no matter what the situation is. And the worse the situation, the more the leaning comes, I think. Like we end up really leaning on Jesus, you know, as much as we can. And what I found is, you know, I had to get into the word of God.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: and a really dear friend of mine, has an estranged son too. And she knows my son, everybody knows my son. They're like, ⁓ my gosh, you're sweet, you're sweet son. Like no way, you guys are so close. And sometimes that's hard to hear because it just brings back that pain again over and over again when you hear it. But then you realize people witnessed how close our bond was, how close we were. And she said, ⁓
Marit Welker: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: my son and I are strange now too. That's kind of strange, isn't it? And I said, it is strange because I knew her son and I thought the same thing of her and her son. And I thought, well, I never thought that would happen. You know, it's just kind of like a, it just hits you upside the head. You don't expect it and you're not sure how to process it. And she was talking to me and she was a really good Christian of faith. And ⁓ you know, we share a lot of scripture together and she said, you know, I had to just give them over to God. And I said, I don't really want to give them over to God. go, I feel like God just took him from me. I'm kind of mad at God right now. I go, know God gave him to me as a gift. I feel like he blessed me with my son. And then now he took them away. Like, why would he do that? So now I'm on that fence. I'm sitting on the boohoo fence, you know, of God giving my son back. I'm no longer on the fence because she said, ⁓ and we looking at scripture together. And I want to share that with you. in ⁓ Psalms 139.13, ⁓ God, our children that are created, ⁓ their days are planned out for them. as parents, know, first we're born a child of God and then we become a wife or a husband, a spouse. And then we have a child. There's steps in our lives. And when we have our children, it's a blessing to us and it's a gift to us. God gives us this gift. We want to claim ownership instead of stewardship over our children and who God is in the picture. And when we have ownership of something, we don't want to let it go. I the title. I have the birth certificate. That's my title. It's mine. And God says, I'm letting you hold the title, but ultimately your child's mine. it was a tug of war with me sitting on that fence with God like going, but you gave me the birth certificate. You gave me my child. I don't want to give him back. And until I surrendered my child over to him, I could not get off that fence, that depression, that crying. I was crying a lot. I was like a.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: big old baby, you know, like just put me in the bathtub because I just going to fill it up. It was horrible. I cried and I would cry my pillow at night and my daughter would be like, Mom, I can hear you crying sometimes. I'm like, I'm so sorry you can hear me, you know, because I'm trying to be strong for her too. I mean, that's her brother as well. So our family got divided. But I remember him telling me when he was younger and I and when you know, when you go back through through their days and you think, where did we mess up? What happened?
Marit Welker: I hear you.
Mickey Woolery: And remember him telling me how upset he was over our divorce, mine and my ex-husband's divorce, and how it destroyed him. It caused him a lot of pain. And he just could not understand. He said to me one thing, I don't understand why you guys can't just work it out. Why can't you just fix it? Just fix it. And I said, sometimes when things get broken, they're not fixable. And I was trying to explain to him. And. It's not that the relationship between me and my ex-husband, we have a good relationship. He's remarried and we are very civil people. But that relationship where husband and wife can no longer be again, you know, and he didn't like that answer. He's like, well, too bad fix it anyway. ⁓ I was like, unfortunately, that's just not going to happen. And I go, but there's things in life that we have to learn to accept, you know. ⁓ part of me thought that that was some of the problem with him just deciding to leave. ⁓
Marit Welker: Bye.
Mickey Woolery: when he started ⁓ hanging out with a girl and he got involved with a girl that also had parent estrangement issues. He attached himself to a person that had those issues. And I honestly feel like a lot of that's where it came from. And I don't want to put blame on her specifically, but I do feel like she is the root cause of him making up his mind. Like, I'm just going to leave everyone behind. I'm just going to go with you, if that makes sense.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, ⁓ 100%. And here's something about that that ⁓ might be helpful to know is that the largest cause for estrangement is always the influence of another person. And it's usually either ⁓ top ones ⁓ an ex-spouse ⁓ a new partner, girlfriend, spouse. ⁓ the reason why is because ⁓ Your child has reached the leave and cleave stage. Okay. They're supposed to leave their mother and their father and cleave to their new partner. It's what's natural. It's what's right. It's what God wants us to do. And he has fallen head over heels in love with someone who may come from a damaged background. And they get connected to that person and they bring in their perspective.
Mickey Woolery: bless.
Marit Welker: And then they experience something together. And that experience might be, let's say, going home over Christmas and meet the family And then something happens it's mild. But the in-law ⁓ or, you know, girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever, although it's girlfriend and daughter-in-law way often than a guy. But they'll experience something and they'll take their take on it, their perspective on it. And they distort the truth based on their perspective of things. And then they convince your child to see it. Well, no, no, that's not what's going on. Well, no, well, I never really thought of it that way before. And pretty soon what happens is they have this new bias and they're looking at it from that perspective. Then what happens is they're going through their memories. And they're looking for that perspective in their past saying, no, that wasn't the case we had. And when they start going back through, the brain is not a computer. It is not giving out facts. is biology. And it scans for problems to protect you. That's one of its primary functions. And so what happens is every time you're retrieving memories, they are coming back based on the lens you're looking for now. And so what happens is your brain automatically by biology, not because of wickedness is going to rewrite that story based on your perspective. So they're going back and they're seeing everything that was there all along that their ⁓ person right. That their parent did do this all along and suddenly they have that distorted perspective. And then that person gives them an ultimatum. It's either me or your family. You choose. And they do choose. And they choose the stage of where they're supposed to be at at that time. And that's where a lot of estrangements come from. Now, obviously that's not always the case, but that is a good majority is from the influence of the ex, either verbally or by viewing their attitudes or by feeling their pain and wanting to defend them. Those are the three. things with an X that tend to cause estrangement. And those are experiences with, a new, it can even be a friend. It's not just a girlfriend or ⁓ a new partner, boyfriend, whatever. ⁓ But yeah, it really, really is ⁓ the number cause is those influencers. And the next one being new community, a new therapist. Because with a therapist, you're digging through these past things that have happened and the therapist is human. And they tend to influence things without meaning to, even though they're trying to stay neutral. And about 39 % of the time in a peer-reviewed study ⁓ that there is influence ⁓ and sometimes as bad diagnosing the other sight unseen with a disorder.
Mickey Woolery: Hmm.
Marit Welker: So yeah, it's happening and it's happening a lot. Going back to your story, Mickey, tell us how that worked for you.
Mickey Woolery: Yeah, okay. ⁓ I think that, ⁓ well, still estranged, ⁓ but ⁓ I have had to sit at the feet of Jesus, you know, on many things besides just this one, but this one was really hard. ⁓ We of the scripture, train up a child in the way they will go and they will not depart from it. ⁓ We've always been family-based, family-oriented.
Marit Welker: Right.
Mickey Woolery: family gatherings, we always had the Christmases, like you said, the holiday events. We'd get together, my son would just pop in and be like, mom, I'm hungry. And I'd be like, what do you want for dinner? It wouldn't be like, well, you should have made an appointment. The door is always open. It's a revolving family door. And so I thought when I was training up my child on the way he should ⁓ I made that very clear that that was an option for him. And I felt like when he...
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.
Mickey Woolery: I felt like he just slammed the door like, no, don't need that I do that because we did it. We ⁓ left and we to our cleave to my husband, you know, and I got married. ⁓ But I didn't leave the rest my family behind. I still stay connected with my parent, you know. ⁓ so ⁓ I felt like, couldn't he have both? Like, why couldn't he have decided both? You know, how could, you know, I get your busier work and your taking care of your new life and you're moving on, you're moving forward. ⁓ But it's two minutes to pick up the phone and say, hey, mom, I'm doing okay. And, cause we worry about them. You know, we worry even though they're in their thirties, forties, fifties all the way up, we're gonna worry about their welfare, their being, are they financially stable? Are they under a bridge? Are they homeless? Are they sick? Are they well? ⁓ We have that worry in the back of our mind.
Marit Welker: course.
Mickey Woolery: But I really had to give it to God. I I had to surrender every single bit of ⁓ because I was the worry mom, especially like with my ⁓ And like my daughter said, I coddled him a lot and he was hardly ever, ever sick because I coddled him so much. just made sure that he stayed well, you know? And ⁓ just was that we are that protector of them, but God is the ultimate protector. So when we let go and we surrender all, we have to trust that God is going to still protect.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: even when we're not in the picture. And I've had to learn that. And I've had to sit with that. And I've had to meditate on that on the days. And on the days that I get really lonesome and I miss him, I think of the happy times, the good times that we had. And I focus on the great memories and the joy. And I think to myself, wonder what he's doing right now. He's probably going to work and he's, I believe he's working for a plumbing company or something like that, whatever, but he's got a good job.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: He's always, he's always been very work oriented and just really a gung ho kind of kid, ⁓ works many hours a day. Just really feels like he goes to the grind, you know? And then I, I, you know, I think, ⁓ maybe he's getting off work and maybe he's going to go home and put his feet up. And you know what I mean? He just, you know, enjoy the rest of his evening or whatever. And I try to think about things like that instead of thinking, why won't he call me? Why won't he call me? Why won't he call me? Because when you detour and shift your thinking,
Marit Welker: Absolutely.
Mickey Woolery: to something more relaxing, pleasant, and that the pain doesn't hurt as much. It reduces the pain and anxiety that you get because that just brings that worry back. Like, is he okay? Is he safe? God's got him. God's got him. And so now I talk to God a lot about him. I say, okay, God, I don't know what he's doing today, but you do. So just give him little friendly reminder that his mom's thinking about him. Or I ask God to do things for me.
Marit Welker: Yeah.
Mickey Woolery: on my behalf now. And even if he does or doesn't do it, it makes it, it eases my pain. So I think that we have to do that to keep our mental health status too, because I think we could go crazy if we, if we think too much into it and about it, we'll lose our, our ever living minds. I, at first I thought I was already going to do that. I thought, man, I'm going to be in the nut ward after this one. And
Marit Welker: Hmm Mm-hmm. right?
Mickey Woolery: I'm glad I did have a couple of friends and I had my family. Even my ex-husband and his wife were supportive. And we would call each other. We'd say, have you heard from him? Any word, any word, anything? Have you seen him? Have you spotted him? Like we were on the watch for him looking out. If someone ran into him, even if they just crossed his path, they'd be like, hey, I saw him. I got a video of him. They had a video of him one day, you know, delivering ⁓ Amazon. Cause I guess he was doing that part time on the side.
Marit Welker: Right?
Mickey Woolery: And I was like, oh my God, there's my son. know, I'm so happy. And he looked healthy and he looked fine. Just like a normal kid, you know, like a normal grownup kid, I guess he's an adult. And we have to take what we have and hold onto that and use that as our memories because we need to also know that when they cleave and leave, they're making new memories and we need to be happy for them for that. We need to let go and let it be. and let God be who God is and trust and have faith in him that ⁓ he's gonna be all right. And I hope for myself, I'll speak for me, I can't speak for everyone. I hope that he's walking the walk, but I don't know that he is. I don't know that he goes to church or even if he's still praying to God or any of that. But I know that... I have prayed for many angels to be around him. So he is very well protected from the mom and dad prayers. I know our whole family's prayed for him. So I know that as we raise our kids and it's like we talk about people that are empty nesters. I wanna say that I'm an empty nester, but I didn't feel like I got that privilege. I felt like that was that part of it was taken because usually like you're moving them into the dorm or you're moving them into their new apartment or hey, they just got married and they're getting their new house and you get to go give them their gift. You know, their welcome, homing gift, you know, and or their wedding gift and, ⁓ and of that got skipped. felt like a big part of my life was like robbed from me.
Marit Welker: right? I understand. Yeah.
Mickey Woolery: And then that hurt me. I told my girls, better not even think about doing any of this to me. And they were like, mom, we saw how much pain you're in. There's absolutely no way we're going to do this. And I'm thankful for that. I'm sad that they had to witness it though, because we don't want our kids to see us in agony and hurting. We want them to see us strong and virtuous. And here we are boohooing and pulling out the tissues. But I also...
Marit Welker: Right? you
Mickey Woolery: realized that they were hurting too. My daughter was hurting too. She reminded me of him the other day before we moved him out here. Something came to her mind, a remembrance. And she said, remember when we used to do this? And I'd be like, yep. And we'd just reminisce and kind of laugh about it. And she'd be like, I really miss him. And I'd be like, oh, don't get sad. Don't get sad. Don't cry. Because sometimes we want to go there. But I just know who God is. I know that my strength lies in the Lord.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: He gives me the strength every day to get up out of bed and keep going on. And one day, one day the prodigal will come home. It may not be on the side of heaven though. It may be up in heaven. mean, it may not happen here on earth. It may be up in heaven as well, would say. And I don't want it to be that way, but I'm okay with that.
Marit Welker: Yes. Yeah. And that's something that we have to remember. You know, as humans, our timeline is finite. Okay. We, we see things as a beginning, a middle, and an end. We measure things in time and in numbers and in years. And when I use this analogy quite often, because to me, it's so powerful. If our life is measured by a ruler, we've got one foot, 12 inches of life.
Mickey Woolery: Go ahead.
Marit Welker: And when you go through a problem, not all problems are going to be fixed in this life. But what does God promise us? He will wipe away all the tears from our eyes. Right? And, and that is such a glorious promise. But to me, that means all of our problems are going to be resolved one way or another in the way that God sees best. And if it's best for God, then guess what that means? It's best for us. And so if I, in my finite little perspective as a human, only see those 12 inches, I'm missing out on the eternity before and the eternity after and all of the plans God has for us. You know, we don't know a great deal about heaven, but what we do know is that God does and he's got us. And even more so, God has our child. I love ⁓ of the things you've brought up are just so powerful. I really want to emphasize those that we are entrusting our child to God, that he has them. our child is God's child first and foremost. We are only lent that child for a portion of our life. You know, we have that relationship with them, but that is not a permanent thing. That is, you know, for 18 or 20 years or whatever, we get to help raise that child. After that, we become secondary. We're still their parent and always will be and have that relationship in whatever form it's going to take. But God is the one that has them. From before we get to meet our child, he knew us, you know, in the womb before we were born. And God is the one, I'm sorry, I'm just feeling incredible rejoicing in that because my daughter had her baby a few, about an hour ago. Wow. A lot of good emotion. ⁓ But God is with us and God is with our child. And so there are so many strands woven together in this life. Your story, my story, your child's story. You know, the crisscrossing of all of these things, God knows the end from the beginning. And so when Paul comes to him in thrice asks to have a thorn removed from his flesh, take this away from me. You know, and, there's a lot of scholars who think that that thorn was a person, but whether it was or wasn't to take that flesh away, that thorn out of his side was something that, ⁓ God's response was, when you are weak, then am I strong? And I know that if I am trusting in God, it is these times, these lowest times when we're suffering the most, that is when God is closest to us and we are closest to God. That is when I truly opened my heart. That is when my prayers become powerful because I'm trying to pray before But I have this hard heart and sometimes I'm too puffed up most days. And so being able to truly and completely humble myself before God is a battle I face every day. And trusting our children to Him, that is what the prodigal son's father did. That is the example Jesus Christ gave us. Now he told us that we are to pluck out our eye if it offends us. That's not referring to estrangement. That's referring to, if you have a family member that is pulling you towards Satan, then yeah, get rid of that. Get rid of that relationship. If that person is keeping you from being able to follow God, then yes, those are those situations that it's talking about. It's about our relationship with God. But what he did say about estrangement, was the example of the prodigal son's father, which was he let him go. And in that culture at the time, the lowest thing he could have done, his son could have done, was to ask for his inheritance. Basically, I want you to die now. I want my money now. And what did the father do? He turned the other cheek and gave him his money. And you know,
Mickey Woolery: Mm-hmm.
Marit Welker: Prefrontal cortexes don't develop fully until your mid-20s to late-20s. He knew his son was going to go out and be unwise with it. He was just too desirous for that money. So he goes off and he leaves this land and spends the inheritance. Now, the appropriate thing for that father to do culturally at the time seems to be that he would have ⁓ called his son
Mickey Woolery: Mm-hmm. ⁓
Marit Welker: dead to him. But he didn't do that. He continued to hurt. And he continued to wait. And he kept his heart open to his child, not full of anger or resentment, but hope. And when his child came, he did something that was incredibly undignified. Men don't run. You know why? Because they're wearing dresses. They have to hike them up to run. And it was just incredibly inappropriate in their culture, yet it shows exactly what happened. He hiked up his skirts and ran to embrace his son, to receive him. And he saw him from afar off because he was looking. That doesn't sound like a father who cut off his child, who gave up on his child or who let him go. That sounds like a child, a father who waited. And that is our role. We are to wait. And like you said, remembering the good times so that our heart won't be turned cold, but so that we'll remember that love and the sweet memories that God gave us with that child. That 12 inch ruler, lay it down in the middle of a road that goes really many miles in either direction. And suddenly you begin to see what your timeline actually looks like. And what feels like your Mount Everest now, it might only be a speed bump over the eternities by contrast. And so trusting God that he knows the end from the beginning. He knows every person's story that he gives each of us our own free will and the dignity to choose for ourselves the course we are to take. And as your child goes forward, yes, he's influenced by the times we live in, but like the prodigal son. He may come to himself when the time is right. And when he does, you will be waiting and watching. So keep going, Mickey. What other things have you learned through this?
Mickey Woolery: You missed that. Well, basically, I mean, that's kind of almost in a nutshell, but ⁓ I have encountered, you know, like I said, other people and friends that are going through it. So again, when you encounter somebody that goes through what you are going through, you have a feeling of not being so isolated and alone in it. And so I liked that God has placed people in my life where I talk to them about it and they actually would understand instead of talking to somebody that'd be like, what your son, why would your son ever do that? You know, or something ⁓ it's more of ⁓ a, You know, I can relate with what you're saying. You're feeling you're thinking. ⁓ But I think about the prodigal son story and I think about how, know, the dad gave him his hair and his inheritance to take off with it and just let it go to the wayside. ⁓ even the end of that story, when he gets to his son, he gives him a ring and a robe and he, ⁓ gives more. more, you know, he gives them more, you know, and, and when we think about that as our kids, when our kids make a mistake, yeah, we correct them, we discipline them, but we shower them with love because we want them to learn, okay, you made a mistake, but we still love you. It's okay, we still love you. And that's where the moreness comes in. And I always envision, you know, I still envision the day that I get to see my son. And I don't know when that'll be. ⁓ Kind like the day I envision Jesus, when I get to see Jesus, it's gonna be a glorious moment. It's gonna be amazing. And I hope I don't say the wrong things or whatever, you because I think sometimes we're just gonna be caught up in the moment. And who knows what's gonna come out of our mouths or our bodies, how we're gonna react. I'm hopeful that when that happens, that like, if I were to run into my son at the store, what would I do? How would I handle it? I know I'm not an angry person when it comes to that kind of stuff. I'm angry at the situation. I'm not angry at him and I'm not angry at myself. I don't feel like, and I'm not angry at my ex-husband or anybody involved in this. I'm not angry with any of them. I just feel like a decision was made and we have to honor his decision and we don't have to like it. And my foster grandmother told me when I was younger and I was dealing with some issues with my mom, with me wanting to be estranged from my own mother. I was like, I just, you know, I don't want to be around my mom. I do not like her, whatever. was just really, I was at that teenage, I was about 14 and a half and I thought I knew everything. You know, I was all that in a bag of chips. So I had it figured out and I knew nothing by the way. I'm claim this. So I don't want any 14 year olds going, ⁓ see, she relates to me. No, I'm not relating to anything. But my grandmother said to me when I was in my distraught, distressed teenage moment, When I said, ⁓ I'm so mad at my mom. don't want nothing to do with her. I'm leaving her. don't ever want to be around her again. And she like grabbed me up and she said, look, says you have to honor your mother and your father. And I was like, okay, so what? ⁓ she's like, you have to honor your mother. My father wasn't in my life. And she goes, it doesn't say you have to like it. I was like, wow, it kind of shut my mouth. But it made me think of this as a mother having an estranged son. I don't have to like it. I still have to honor him. He's my son. He's a child of the king. He is an heir to the throne. My son is. I need to honor that. No matter what I'm doing in my life. Yes, it doesn't feel good. I don't like it because we live in a fleshly realm in our bodies. We run and operate off from emotions more than we should. And our thoughts and our feelings, you know, that's why it says to capture every thought and take it to the knowledge of God. It doesn't say to run off like the butterfly that's just fluffing around all the time, you know? We need to be paying attention to our thought process. And we need to understand that the child that we're longing for, we're mad at, is the child of the King just like we are. And we just have to give it that grace. And God's gonna give you the mercy over that when you just surrender it to God. And like I said, once I did that and I was able to get off that boohoo fence, I have a lot of peace about it. I miss my son terribly, I will not lie. I miss him, my heart.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: I have a little bit of an achy in my heart when I talk about him because I really miss him terribly. I miss all the fun that we could be having, but he's living his life. He's living his life, you know, and doing what he's supposed to be doing. You know, like you said, we were designed for the part-time position of being the parent until they grow up and then they get to be who they're supposed to be. We need to let them go to the world and do what they're doing in the world. And we got to let them go on that.
Marit Welker: ⁓ Yeah. All right.
Mickey Woolery: And I just encourage anyone that goes through this, that once you do this though, God will bring you a peace over you, a peace over your child. I don't worry every single day like I did the first year and a half. I don't cry every day like I did the first year and a half. don't like, my friends would call me, have you heard from me? Have you heard? Cause you know, the word was getting out, you know? And I was like, ⁓ gosh. And because he affected a lot of people, not just myself, cause he affected the whole family.
Marit Welker: ⁓ Right.
Mickey Woolery: And some people would call me and they would vent to me about how, you know, he estranged them. And I'm like, I'm already hurting. I don't want to hear anymore, but I would try to make them feel comfortable and make them feel good. And it'd be like, it's not your fault. It's okay. It's this is what happens. You know, he's entitled to live his life. We are all entitled to live our life. We're not really supposed to hurt one another. We're supposed to love one another, but sometimes we have to do it from a distance. And I'll accept that the end of the earth.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: is from east to west and north to south and somewhere in there he's still on the earth. He's still connected to me this world. ⁓ when we get to heaven, then we're bountifully connected. So I look at it like that, like he may not be here. Like if he's at work and he's away from me, well, that's where he is now. He's at work. Or if he's out on a date with his girlfriend, that's where he is now. ⁓ Or now think he's married, but I don't know. Wherever he is now that's not with me, he's still my son. He'll always be my son and I'll love him forever. I'll never stop loving, but I have to let that peace come so that I don't get destroyed. So it doesn't take away who I am, who God ⁓ my identity to be. And we do that as parents. We allow ⁓ identity to lose its purpose when our kids hurt us or when somebody hurts us. And it's not even just children, it's in relationships to people. We allow our identity to be stolen through that. And we're not supposed to do that. We're supposed to armor up, put on the armor of God every single day. you're supposed to grab the word of God, grab your sword. And if you're in season every single time, you're gonna be okay. But if you're out of season every time, you're not gonna be okay. Because the Bible says to be in and out of season, but ⁓ be prepared in and of season. So if you're out of season constantly, it doesn't work. If you're out of season constantly, it doesn't work. Because there's a harvest that has to happen.
Marit Welker: That's right.
Mickey Woolery: So you have to be in and out of season and be prepared all the time. And I'm just prepared. I'm prepared for Jesus to come back. So therefore, I'm prepared for my son to be in my life again. And that's how I'm just looking at it. like I said, it may not be on the side of heaven. And honestly, I'm OK with that. The rejoicing is going to come because God knows what rejoicing we need. He gives us what we need. So we have to look at it like that, if that makes any sense.
Marit Welker: Right. That's right. Well, that is if you want sanity in your life and peace in your heart. That's how you have to look at it. Mickey, your experience is very painful, but I see how God has brought you friends. He's raised up friends to help you connect with other people who are going through this. And I see how ⁓ the lessons you've learned, are you much stronger because of going through this? Are you closer to God?
Mickey Woolery: Yes. Yes. you I'm absolutely closer to God. I will say that. ⁓ I've always been close to God since I was saved at 10 years old, because Jesus has just been my best friend. But ⁓ I have been in my own despair where I have walked away from God or mad at God or upset with God because I didn't think something was fair or right or it was unjust. So it ⁓
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: You know how you kind of backside and you walk away and you have to come back. God has always been just kind of slowly pulling me in. think if he would have just jerked me back, it wouldn't have been a good thing for me. I think as you, as he pulls you back and you're going through the process, you learn. Like we say, sometimes baby steps are necessary. You know, even though we're full, full grown adults, we have to take baby steps sometimes because the fullness of it is too much for us to even imagine or fathom. can't, we can't figure it out that quickly. We have to go through the emotional part of it, heartache and the pain, then it gets broken down, then God sends somebody, you're thankful to God, and God's see, haven't left you or forsaken you, like my word says. ⁓ And ⁓ it's funny because I people, fulfills his promises, but what happens is we don't believe them. We don't believe in the promises. So ⁓ God's not going to fulfill a in you if you're not going to do anything with it. He wants you to have every promise in the Bible, but not if you're not gonna do something with it. He wants you to take that promise because he wants to give it to you. But if you're not gonna take it, why give it to you? He already knows where we're at in our walk with him. And he has built me up immensely. I talk to people all over the world now. As you know, I'm a podcast host and I have ⁓ five podcasts. And I talk on different levels in different areas, not specifically this one. I had thought about it. but I don't feel equipped to talk to people about this, but I do feel equipped to share my testimony in it because I do believe that some people are sitting in a lot of pain right now they are being, they're miserable. I was there folks, I was so miserable. ⁓ you didn't to be around me. I was cranky, I was crying. I sat and wallowed in my pain. And sometimes we do that, but here's the thing.
Marit Welker: Yeah. Yeah.
Mickey Woolery: You have to brush yourself off. You have to wipe yourself off and you have to get up and you have to get going. You have to get going. You can't just sit.
Marit Welker: And that's the last thing you want to do. Yeah, that's the last thing you want to do.
Mickey Woolery: Yes. It'll destroy you. Yeah. I think it'll eat you alive.
Marit Welker: but you're just gonna stay there in misery until you choose to act.
Mickey Woolery: Yes, I agree. And I decided that acting, you know, for not just for my sake, but and for my own health. And I'm talking mental health, not just physical health, but it your whole being. ⁓ But for the sanity of the people that were around me, I was I was becoming contagiously infectious in my my self pity where people I didn't you know, they were just like, maybe you should go see a counselor, maybe you should get some help, ⁓ because it it was it was rubbing off on me. I didn't want to be like that. I didn't want people feeling sorry for me. I didn't want any of that, ⁓ but some of that happened. And ⁓ I, I just back and corrected that and said, thank you for putting up with me. And I appreciate it, but I'm better now, just to let you know, ⁓ because ⁓ it's healthy. That's a healthy thing to do. I'm healthier for it. God blessed me through it immensely. And we need to just pray for our children, pray for our loved ones, pray for our friends and our family, pray for our government, pray for our nation. We should be praying. ⁓ And you know, it says we're supposed to worry about today or tomorrow. It's our God's already got it taken care of. So, the word of God really has come to life in through a lot of the heartache that I sat in. He really opened up the windows for me to see because I was in such darkness and I really needed that to come to pass in order to
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mickey Woolery: get where I am today. And now I can talk about my son and not just like literally lose it, you know, or, ⁓ a complete emotional mental breakdown over it. ⁓ I'm okay. I know that God's watching him, you know, there's angels all around him. So ⁓ I'm not worried about my son anymore. My a grown man. He's an adult and he's smart. ⁓ And then we got to tell ourselves that too. He's grown, you know, he's a grown person. ⁓
Marit Welker: right?
Mickey Woolery: We raised them not to be idiots, right? Like if we raise our kids, not to be foolish in the world, they're gonna do okay on their own. We have to trust that we did a good enough job and that God's gonna take it from here. So that's kind of where I'm at with him and miss him, miss him, miss him, but that's all we could do, right?
Marit Welker: Exactly. you can wallow in misery. It's the natural thing to do. It's easy thing to do. It's so overwhelming. ⁓ And I would fault anyone who's doing that. But I do invite you to step higher. And I do invite you to come closer to Christ because there is hope and there is joy and there is so much power that can be applied to your life to help you move forward.
Mickey Woolery: Right.
Marit Welker: And Mickey, how many of these podcasts did you have before The Estrangement.
Mickey Woolery: Yeah, I wasn't a podcaster before I was estranged. I became a podcaster after. It all came together afterwards.
Marit Welker: Okay. Now, do you think that this experience shaped you in some way that you felt you had to get God's word out?
Mickey Woolery: Absolutely, I think that ⁓ along with other podcasts because I have a ⁓ different different but I think that we don't understand the word of God fully and we don't understand the truth behind it. We don't understand the blessings and the promise and the mercy that God has on us because we all make mistakes. We're all sinners. We all fall short ⁓ and
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: you know, and sometimes, know, like in the beginning, I wanted to blame myself 100 % for everything that happened. And I remember even my ex-husband was going, I just want you to know it's not your fault. I was like, none of this is your fault, you know? And even his wife and I'm glad they told me that, but still down deep, you still think to yourself, where did I go wrong? What did I do? What decisions could I have done better? You know, what actions could taken that were more appropriate?
Marit Welker: all. shame guilt.
Mickey Woolery: And the devil, that's the enemy, by the way, for those that are listening, if you don't know God, that's the enemy that is attacking you. And he's attacking you where every little nook and cranny that he can get in, he's going to do it. And if he can get you on shame or if he can get you on guilt or if he can get you to hurt or have pain or sit and wallow in that pit, that is a pit from hell, by the way. That's not the pit where God wants you to be. God doesn't want you in a pit. He wants you to thrive and he wants you to be filled with joy.
Marit Welker: That's right. That's right. That's right.
Mickey Woolery: Mm-hmm.
Marit Welker: Yep. He wants to rob you of all joy. Now, Mickey, Where can ⁓ this audience reach out to you and find you and learn more?
Mickey Woolery: ⁓ you can reach me at crushing strongholds.com and, ⁓ that's where my podcasts are launched. ⁓ there's episodes on there that can be watched and whatnot. there's a place where they can subscribe. didn't hear you. Crushing strongholds.com. ⁓ and so everything is in there. You can just subscribe. You can just send me a little message. I offer free prayer.
Marit Welker: crushing strongholds. crushing strongholds.
Mickey Woolery: We ⁓ just gotta get down to ⁓ seeing it for what it really is instead of what the enemy tries to make be. The enemy, if he keep you ⁓ from going after God, he will. So he's gonna make it, ⁓ you think that there's a mountain in front of when actually it's something you can just step right on top of. ⁓ And so ⁓ if you're struggling with that, you can reach me there and ⁓ I'll get back to and... and I'll get with you on whatever you need. It's all there.
Marit Welker: You're so sweet. Thank you so much for being here, Mickey. You've just been such a blessing to all of us. I know my life is enriched by hearing your story and seeing your faith and what a light you are to all of us. ⁓ I pray that God will bless you and strengthen you and keep holding you up as a light because there are so many of us that are hurting, are just facing our problem right in front of our face and are blinded to the bigger picture. And your story is just one of rescue, of moving forward and seeing beyond that by giving it to God. Thank you. That is also what I teach. And I wanted to let the audience know also, if you are listening, if your child has abandoned you, if you feel as they've divorced you and just kicked you to the curb, please know you're not alone. And you need to know one very important thing. And that is this, that your father in heaven understands better than ⁓ anyone on this planet. what that feels like. He has had more children reject him than you can imagine. He knows your heart. He knows your pain. And he's here waiting for you. He's waiting for you to like Mickey, come to him with the courage to make changes, the courage to grow, and I want to help you as well. If you feel like it's time to make some changes, you're going to be able to step up to start a five-day challenge I would be honored to walk with you on that path to restoring your identity as a daughter of God if you'd like to join me, go to maritwelker.com and sign up and we'll ⁓ get you taken care of. Help you get to more clarity and more peace. God has purposes for you and he will take that mother love that you've developed and even if you can't give it to your child right now, he wants to work, through you. God wants you to find meaning. where we work on your identity because it's been hurt, it's been injured, and it's time to repair it. It's time for you to be able to, like Mickey, see the bigger picture and to find your place in it so that you can wait with strength, with purpose, and with joy, even if it hasn't been resolved yet. That's what I teach you how to do. So go to and sign up for the challenge today. I look forward to seeing you next week on the Still Here podcast for Estranged Christian Moms God bless you.
Mickey Woolery: Well, first of all, thank you, Marit for inviting me on I'm excited to be here. I'm a mom of three biological children and one adopted daughter. ⁓ never thought I would ever find myself in a place of estrangement with any of my children. But it just happened to be about ⁓ four, five years ago where my youngest son decided that ⁓ he no longer wanted ties with any of our family. ⁓ friends, relatives, cousins, mom, dad, all of us. so ⁓ didn't, I mean, at first it hit me pretty hard, but it didn't me as hard as I think it would have been if had it just been just me in the family. And I that sounds selfish. but knowing that ⁓ he decided just like basically discard the entirety of his family. not that it, ⁓ it makes it really but it made me feel, less singled out, like I had done something so horrifically wrong to make him make this decision, ⁓ So I ⁓ was to eliminate ⁓ the singled out mom was chosen just to be ⁓ estranged by ⁓ their ⁓ But thing I've is ⁓ in the beginning, it devastating. ⁓ It floored me. Even my oldest daughters. ⁓
Marit Welker: Yes.
Mickey Woolery: They used to complain and say, you know, why is he your favorite? know, maybe he's your favorite and you always coddle him and favor him. And they used to be jealous and stuff. when they were younger and now that they're older, they look back and they're like, mom, I don't understand, you know, how, how as close as you guys were that something like this could happen. They still don't even get it to this day. It just, blows their mind. my daughter said, mom, I'm so sorry, because I know how much this is hurting you. it was a comfort, it's still, ⁓ you know, that she recognizes the pain ⁓ that we as parents. When our parents, or when our children decide to get up ⁓ and no be part of your family, part of your life, it's really reckoning. So the first year or so, I was a him, calling him, crying and crying and crying and ⁓ know, because your heart's just broken and ⁓ always go through your whole, your whole history with that child. Like where did I make the mistake? What did I do wrong? What could I have done better? And we know that children do not come with a handbook. ⁓ when they come out, you know, we just, you know, we have to take it for what it is and run with it. ⁓ there's trials and tribulations with everything God says is doesn't say it's gonna be easy, but ⁓ you just have to make the best of it, you know, make do. And was super close with my son. Me and my son had this really special bond. ⁓ could joke around. He was the easiest child too. I thought, man, I so blessed, cause he's just so easy. Like ⁓ he would see my get in trouble and he'd be like, I don't want none of that. ⁓ I'm just gonna be And he just was good, you know? And ⁓ he was sweet. ⁓ cuddly and and ⁓ we would hang out and spend mom and son time together all the time. He would take me places and he would drive me places and when he got older, he was responsible was is a good really good worker. So everything was like turning out perfectly for me. You know, I was like, ⁓ my gosh, my kids are so amazing. I love them. So proud of them and I still am proud of them. That will never go away. I don't think for anybody that goes away. ⁓ Even though sometimes when the disappointment comes. That doesn't leave us, that part of it. All the good stuff doesn't go away. But I know with my son, I was devastated, ⁓ was sick. ⁓ I ⁓ literally over it. ⁓ And my was like, ⁓ mom, we're here. ⁓ And then was like, ⁓ gosh, I was mourning much. like, I was not even paying attention to the children I still had. ⁓
Marit Welker: Agreed.
Mickey Woolery: until my daughter said, hey, I'm still in the picture. I'm still here, Mom. I understand you're hurting, but I'm still here. And I'm glad she was able to say that and recognize it and be open with me because we don't know what we're doing when we're going through this. So we need people to give us some guidance and help. And like what you do, you help people to get through these situations. And I had already ⁓ lost my mom. And then, and then now I lost my son. And so, you know, I was in just kind of a dark place, but I had to literally lean on God. And where I want to encourage people that are walking in this is he wants you to lean on him no matter what the situation is. And the worse the situation, the more the leaning comes, I think. Like we end up really leaning on Jesus, you know, as much as we can. And what I found is, you know, I had to get into the word of God.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: and a really dear friend of mine, has an estranged son too. And she knows my son, everybody knows my son. They're like, ⁓ my gosh, you're sweet, you're sweet son. Like no way, you guys are so close. And sometimes that's hard to hear because it just brings back that pain again over and over again when you hear it. But then you realize people witnessed how close our bond was, how close we were. And she said, ⁓
Marit Welker: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: my son and I are strange now too. That's kind of strange, isn't it? And I said, it is strange because I knew her son and I thought the same thing of her and her son. And I thought, well, I never thought that would happen. You know, it's just kind of like a, it just hits you upside the head. You don't expect it and you're not sure how to process it. And she was talking to me and she was a really good Christian of faith. And ⁓ you know, we share a lot of scripture together and she said, you know, I had to just give them over to God. And I said, I don't really want to give them over to God. go, I feel like God just took him from me. I'm kind of mad at God right now. I go, know God gave him to me as a gift. I feel like he blessed me with my son. And then now he took them away. Like, why would he do that? So now I'm on that fence. I'm sitting on the boohoo fence, you know, of God giving my son back. I'm no longer on the fence because she said, ⁓ and we looking at scripture together. And I want to share that with you. in ⁓ Psalms 139.13, ⁓ God, our children that are created, ⁓ their days are planned out for them. as parents, know, first we're born a child of God and then we become a wife or a husband, a spouse. And then we have a child. There's steps in our lives. And when we have our children, it's a blessing to us and it's a gift to us. God gives us this gift. We want to claim ownership instead of stewardship over our children and who God is in the picture. And when we have ownership of something, we don't want to let it go. I the title. I have the birth certificate. That's my title. It's mine. And God says, I'm letting you hold the title, but ultimately your child's mine. it was a tug of war with me sitting on that fence with God like going, but you gave me the birth certificate. You gave me my child. I don't want to give him back. And until I surrendered my child over to him, I could not get off that fence, that depression, that crying. I was crying a lot. I was like a.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: big old baby, you know, like just put me in the bathtub because I just going to fill it up. It was horrible. I cried and I would cry my pillow at night and my daughter would be like, Mom, I can hear you crying sometimes. I'm like, I'm so sorry you can hear me, you know, because I'm trying to be strong for her too. I mean, that's her brother as well. So our family got divided. But I remember him telling me when he was younger and I and when you know, when you go back through through their days and you think, where did we mess up? What happened?
Marit Welker: I hear you.
Mickey Woolery: And remember him telling me how upset he was over our divorce, mine and my ex-husband's divorce, and how it destroyed him. It caused him a lot of pain. And he just could not understand. He said to me one thing, I don't understand why you guys can't just work it out. Why can't you just fix it? Just fix it. And I said, sometimes when things get broken, they're not fixable. And I was trying to explain to him. And. It's not that the relationship between me and my ex-husband, we have a good relationship. He's remarried and we are very civil people. But that relationship where husband and wife can no longer be again, you know, and he didn't like that answer. He's like, well, too bad fix it anyway. ⁓ I was like, unfortunately, that's just not going to happen. And I go, but there's things in life that we have to learn to accept, you know. ⁓ part of me thought that that was some of the problem with him just deciding to leave. ⁓
Marit Welker: Bye.
Mickey Woolery: when he started ⁓ hanging out with a girl and he got involved with a girl that also had parent estrangement issues. He attached himself to a person that had those issues. And I honestly feel like a lot of that's where it came from. And I don't want to put blame on her specifically, but I do feel like she is the root cause of him making up his mind. Like, I'm just going to leave everyone behind. I'm just going to go with you, if that makes sense.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, ⁓ 100%. And here's something about that that ⁓ might be helpful to know is that the largest cause for estrangement is always the influence of another person. And it's usually either ⁓ top ones ⁓ an ex-spouse ⁓ a new partner, girlfriend, spouse. ⁓ the reason why is because ⁓ Your child has reached the leave and cleave stage. Okay. They're supposed to leave their mother and their father and cleave to their new partner. It's what's natural. It's what's right. It's what God wants us to do. And he has fallen head over heels in love with someone who may come from a damaged background. And they get connected to that person and they bring in their perspective.
Mickey Woolery: bless.
Marit Welker: And then they experience something together. And that experience might be, let's say, going home over Christmas and meet the family And then something happens it's mild. But the in-law ⁓ or, you know, girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever, although it's girlfriend and daughter-in-law way often than a guy. But they'll experience something and they'll take their take on it, their perspective on it. And they distort the truth based on their perspective of things. And then they convince your child to see it. Well, no, no, that's not what's going on. Well, no, well, I never really thought of it that way before. And pretty soon what happens is they have this new bias and they're looking at it from that perspective. Then what happens is they're going through their memories. And they're looking for that perspective in their past saying, no, that wasn't the case we had. And when they start going back through, the brain is not a computer. It is not giving out facts. is biology. And it scans for problems to protect you. That's one of its primary functions. And so what happens is every time you're retrieving memories, they are coming back based on the lens you're looking for now. And so what happens is your brain automatically by biology, not because of wickedness is going to rewrite that story based on your perspective. So they're going back and they're seeing everything that was there all along that their ⁓ person right. That their parent did do this all along and suddenly they have that distorted perspective. And then that person gives them an ultimatum. It's either me or your family. You choose. And they do choose. And they choose the stage of where they're supposed to be at at that time. And that's where a lot of estrangements come from. Now, obviously that's not always the case, but that is a good majority is from the influence of the ex, either verbally or by viewing their attitudes or by feeling their pain and wanting to defend them. Those are the three. things with an X that tend to cause estrangement. And those are experiences with, a new, it can even be a friend. It's not just a girlfriend or ⁓ a new partner, boyfriend, whatever. ⁓ But yeah, it really, really is ⁓ the number cause is those influencers. And the next one being new community, a new therapist. Because with a therapist, you're digging through these past things that have happened and the therapist is human. And they tend to influence things without meaning to, even though they're trying to stay neutral. And about 39 % of the time in a peer-reviewed study ⁓ that there is influence ⁓ and sometimes as bad diagnosing the other sight unseen with a disorder.
Mickey Woolery: Hmm.
Marit Welker: So yeah, it's happening and it's happening a lot. Going back to your story, Mickey, tell us how that worked for you.
Mickey Woolery: Yeah, okay. ⁓ I think that, ⁓ well, still estranged, ⁓ but ⁓ I have had to sit at the feet of Jesus, you know, on many things besides just this one, but this one was really hard. ⁓ We of the scripture, train up a child in the way they will go and they will not depart from it. ⁓ We've always been family-based, family-oriented.
Marit Welker: Right.
Mickey Woolery: family gatherings, we always had the Christmases, like you said, the holiday events. We'd get together, my son would just pop in and be like, mom, I'm hungry. And I'd be like, what do you want for dinner? It wouldn't be like, well, you should have made an appointment. The door is always open. It's a revolving family door. And so I thought when I was training up my child on the way he should ⁓ I made that very clear that that was an option for him. And I felt like when he...
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.
Mickey Woolery: I felt like he just slammed the door like, no, don't need that I do that because we did it. We ⁓ left and we to our cleave to my husband, you know, and I got married. ⁓ But I didn't leave the rest my family behind. I still stay connected with my parent, you know. ⁓ so ⁓ I felt like, couldn't he have both? Like, why couldn't he have decided both? You know, how could, you know, I get your busier work and your taking care of your new life and you're moving on, you're moving forward. ⁓ But it's two minutes to pick up the phone and say, hey, mom, I'm doing okay. And, cause we worry about them. You know, we worry even though they're in their thirties, forties, fifties all the way up, we're gonna worry about their welfare, their being, are they financially stable? Are they under a bridge? Are they homeless? Are they sick? Are they well? ⁓ We have that worry in the back of our mind.
Marit Welker: course.
Mickey Woolery: But I really had to give it to God. I I had to surrender every single bit of ⁓ because I was the worry mom, especially like with my ⁓ And like my daughter said, I coddled him a lot and he was hardly ever, ever sick because I coddled him so much. just made sure that he stayed well, you know? And ⁓ just was that we are that protector of them, but God is the ultimate protector. So when we let go and we surrender all, we have to trust that God is going to still protect.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: even when we're not in the picture. And I've had to learn that. And I've had to sit with that. And I've had to meditate on that on the days. And on the days that I get really lonesome and I miss him, I think of the happy times, the good times that we had. And I focus on the great memories and the joy. And I think to myself, wonder what he's doing right now. He's probably going to work and he's, I believe he's working for a plumbing company or something like that, whatever, but he's got a good job.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: He's always, he's always been very work oriented and just really a gung ho kind of kid, ⁓ works many hours a day. Just really feels like he goes to the grind, you know? And then I, I, you know, I think, ⁓ maybe he's getting off work and maybe he's going to go home and put his feet up. And you know what I mean? He just, you know, enjoy the rest of his evening or whatever. And I try to think about things like that instead of thinking, why won't he call me? Why won't he call me? Why won't he call me? Because when you detour and shift your thinking,
Marit Welker: Absolutely.
Mickey Woolery: to something more relaxing, pleasant, and that the pain doesn't hurt as much. It reduces the pain and anxiety that you get because that just brings that worry back. Like, is he okay? Is he safe? God's got him. God's got him. And so now I talk to God a lot about him. I say, okay, God, I don't know what he's doing today, but you do. So just give him little friendly reminder that his mom's thinking about him. Or I ask God to do things for me.
Marit Welker: Yeah.
Mickey Woolery: on my behalf now. And even if he does or doesn't do it, it makes it, it eases my pain. So I think that we have to do that to keep our mental health status too, because I think we could go crazy if we, if we think too much into it and about it, we'll lose our, our ever living minds. I, at first I thought I was already going to do that. I thought, man, I'm going to be in the nut ward after this one. And
Marit Welker: Hmm Mm-hmm. right?
Mickey Woolery: I'm glad I did have a couple of friends and I had my family. Even my ex-husband and his wife were supportive. And we would call each other. We'd say, have you heard from him? Any word, any word, anything? Have you seen him? Have you spotted him? Like we were on the watch for him looking out. If someone ran into him, even if they just crossed his path, they'd be like, hey, I saw him. I got a video of him. They had a video of him one day, you know, delivering ⁓ Amazon. Cause I guess he was doing that part time on the side.
Marit Welker: Right?
Mickey Woolery: And I was like, oh my God, there's my son. know, I'm so happy. And he looked healthy and he looked fine. Just like a normal kid, you know, like a normal grownup kid, I guess he's an adult. And we have to take what we have and hold onto that and use that as our memories because we need to also know that when they cleave and leave, they're making new memories and we need to be happy for them for that. We need to let go and let it be. and let God be who God is and trust and have faith in him that ⁓ he's gonna be all right. And I hope for myself, I'll speak for me, I can't speak for everyone. I hope that he's walking the walk, but I don't know that he is. I don't know that he goes to church or even if he's still praying to God or any of that. But I know that... I have prayed for many angels to be around him. So he is very well protected from the mom and dad prayers. I know our whole family's prayed for him. So I know that as we raise our kids and it's like we talk about people that are empty nesters. I wanna say that I'm an empty nester, but I didn't feel like I got that privilege. I felt like that was that part of it was taken because usually like you're moving them into the dorm or you're moving them into their new apartment or hey, they just got married and they're getting their new house and you get to go give them their gift. You know, their welcome, homing gift, you know, and or their wedding gift and, ⁓ and of that got skipped. felt like a big part of my life was like robbed from me.
Marit Welker: right? I understand. Yeah.
Mickey Woolery: And then that hurt me. I told my girls, better not even think about doing any of this to me. And they were like, mom, we saw how much pain you're in. There's absolutely no way we're going to do this. And I'm thankful for that. I'm sad that they had to witness it though, because we don't want our kids to see us in agony and hurting. We want them to see us strong and virtuous. And here we are boohooing and pulling out the tissues. But I also...
Marit Welker: Right? you
Mickey Woolery: realized that they were hurting too. My daughter was hurting too. She reminded me of him the other day before we moved him out here. Something came to her mind, a remembrance. And she said, remember when we used to do this? And I'd be like, yep. And we'd just reminisce and kind of laugh about it. And she'd be like, I really miss him. And I'd be like, oh, don't get sad. Don't get sad. Don't cry. Because sometimes we want to go there. But I just know who God is. I know that my strength lies in the Lord.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: He gives me the strength every day to get up out of bed and keep going on. And one day, one day the prodigal will come home. It may not be on the side of heaven though. It may be up in heaven. mean, it may not happen here on earth. It may be up in heaven as well, would say. And I don't want it to be that way, but I'm okay with that.
Marit Welker: Yes. Yeah. And that's something that we have to remember. You know, as humans, our timeline is finite. Okay. We, we see things as a beginning, a middle, and an end. We measure things in time and in numbers and in years. And when I use this analogy quite often, because to me, it's so powerful. If our life is measured by a ruler, we've got one foot, 12 inches of life.
Mickey Woolery: Go ahead.
Marit Welker: And when you go through a problem, not all problems are going to be fixed in this life. But what does God promise us? He will wipe away all the tears from our eyes. Right? And, and that is such a glorious promise. But to me, that means all of our problems are going to be resolved one way or another in the way that God sees best. And if it's best for God, then guess what that means? It's best for us. And so if I, in my finite little perspective as a human, only see those 12 inches, I'm missing out on the eternity before and the eternity after and all of the plans God has for us. You know, we don't know a great deal about heaven, but what we do know is that God does and he's got us. And even more so, God has our child. I love ⁓ of the things you've brought up are just so powerful. I really want to emphasize those that we are entrusting our child to God, that he has them. our child is God's child first and foremost. We are only lent that child for a portion of our life. You know, we have that relationship with them, but that is not a permanent thing. That is, you know, for 18 or 20 years or whatever, we get to help raise that child. After that, we become secondary. We're still their parent and always will be and have that relationship in whatever form it's going to take. But God is the one that has them. From before we get to meet our child, he knew us, you know, in the womb before we were born. And God is the one, I'm sorry, I'm just feeling incredible rejoicing in that because my daughter had her baby a few, about an hour ago. Wow. A lot of good emotion. ⁓ But God is with us and God is with our child. And so there are so many strands woven together in this life. Your story, my story, your child's story. You know, the crisscrossing of all of these things, God knows the end from the beginning. And so when Paul comes to him in thrice asks to have a thorn removed from his flesh, take this away from me. You know, and, there's a lot of scholars who think that that thorn was a person, but whether it was or wasn't to take that flesh away, that thorn out of his side was something that, ⁓ God's response was, when you are weak, then am I strong? And I know that if I am trusting in God, it is these times, these lowest times when we're suffering the most, that is when God is closest to us and we are closest to God. That is when I truly opened my heart. That is when my prayers become powerful because I'm trying to pray before But I have this hard heart and sometimes I'm too puffed up most days. And so being able to truly and completely humble myself before God is a battle I face every day. And trusting our children to Him, that is what the prodigal son's father did. That is the example Jesus Christ gave us. Now he told us that we are to pluck out our eye if it offends us. That's not referring to estrangement. That's referring to, if you have a family member that is pulling you towards Satan, then yeah, get rid of that. Get rid of that relationship. If that person is keeping you from being able to follow God, then yes, those are those situations that it's talking about. It's about our relationship with God. But what he did say about estrangement, was the example of the prodigal son's father, which was he let him go. And in that culture at the time, the lowest thing he could have done, his son could have done, was to ask for his inheritance. Basically, I want you to die now. I want my money now. And what did the father do? He turned the other cheek and gave him his money. And you know,
Mickey Woolery: Mm-hmm.
Marit Welker: Prefrontal cortexes don't develop fully until your mid-20s to late-20s. He knew his son was going to go out and be unwise with it. He was just too desirous for that money. So he goes off and he leaves this land and spends the inheritance. Now, the appropriate thing for that father to do culturally at the time seems to be that he would have ⁓ called his son
Mickey Woolery: Mm-hmm. ⁓
Marit Welker: dead to him. But he didn't do that. He continued to hurt. And he continued to wait. And he kept his heart open to his child, not full of anger or resentment, but hope. And when his child came, he did something that was incredibly undignified. Men don't run. You know why? Because they're wearing dresses. They have to hike them up to run. And it was just incredibly inappropriate in their culture, yet it shows exactly what happened. He hiked up his skirts and ran to embrace his son, to receive him. And he saw him from afar off because he was looking. That doesn't sound like a father who cut off his child, who gave up on his child or who let him go. That sounds like a child, a father who waited. And that is our role. We are to wait. And like you said, remembering the good times so that our heart won't be turned cold, but so that we'll remember that love and the sweet memories that God gave us with that child. That 12 inch ruler, lay it down in the middle of a road that goes really many miles in either direction. And suddenly you begin to see what your timeline actually looks like. And what feels like your Mount Everest now, it might only be a speed bump over the eternities by contrast. And so trusting God that he knows the end from the beginning. He knows every person's story that he gives each of us our own free will and the dignity to choose for ourselves the course we are to take. And as your child goes forward, yes, he's influenced by the times we live in, but like the prodigal son. He may come to himself when the time is right. And when he does, you will be waiting and watching. So keep going, Mickey. What other things have you learned through this?
Mickey Woolery: You missed that. Well, basically, I mean, that's kind of almost in a nutshell, but ⁓ I have encountered, you know, like I said, other people and friends that are going through it. So again, when you encounter somebody that goes through what you are going through, you have a feeling of not being so isolated and alone in it. And so I liked that God has placed people in my life where I talk to them about it and they actually would understand instead of talking to somebody that'd be like, what your son, why would your son ever do that? You know, or something ⁓ it's more of ⁓ a, You know, I can relate with what you're saying. You're feeling you're thinking. ⁓ But I think about the prodigal son story and I think about how, know, the dad gave him his hair and his inheritance to take off with it and just let it go to the wayside. ⁓ even the end of that story, when he gets to his son, he gives him a ring and a robe and he, ⁓ gives more. more, you know, he gives them more, you know, and, and when we think about that as our kids, when our kids make a mistake, yeah, we correct them, we discipline them, but we shower them with love because we want them to learn, okay, you made a mistake, but we still love you. It's okay, we still love you. And that's where the moreness comes in. And I always envision, you know, I still envision the day that I get to see my son. And I don't know when that'll be. ⁓ Kind like the day I envision Jesus, when I get to see Jesus, it's gonna be a glorious moment. It's gonna be amazing. And I hope I don't say the wrong things or whatever, you because I think sometimes we're just gonna be caught up in the moment. And who knows what's gonna come out of our mouths or our bodies, how we're gonna react. I'm hopeful that when that happens, that like, if I were to run into my son at the store, what would I do? How would I handle it? I know I'm not an angry person when it comes to that kind of stuff. I'm angry at the situation. I'm not angry at him and I'm not angry at myself. I don't feel like, and I'm not angry at my ex-husband or anybody involved in this. I'm not angry with any of them. I just feel like a decision was made and we have to honor his decision and we don't have to like it. And my foster grandmother told me when I was younger and I was dealing with some issues with my mom, with me wanting to be estranged from my own mother. I was like, I just, you know, I don't want to be around my mom. I do not like her, whatever. was just really, I was at that teenage, I was about 14 and a half and I thought I knew everything. You know, I was all that in a bag of chips. So I had it figured out and I knew nothing by the way. I'm claim this. So I don't want any 14 year olds going, ⁓ see, she relates to me. No, I'm not relating to anything. But my grandmother said to me when I was in my distraught, distressed teenage moment, When I said, ⁓ I'm so mad at my mom. don't want nothing to do with her. I'm leaving her. don't ever want to be around her again. And she like grabbed me up and she said, look, says you have to honor your mother and your father. And I was like, okay, so what? ⁓ she's like, you have to honor your mother. My father wasn't in my life. And she goes, it doesn't say you have to like it. I was like, wow, it kind of shut my mouth. But it made me think of this as a mother having an estranged son. I don't have to like it. I still have to honor him. He's my son. He's a child of the king. He is an heir to the throne. My son is. I need to honor that. No matter what I'm doing in my life. Yes, it doesn't feel good. I don't like it because we live in a fleshly realm in our bodies. We run and operate off from emotions more than we should. And our thoughts and our feelings, you know, that's why it says to capture every thought and take it to the knowledge of God. It doesn't say to run off like the butterfly that's just fluffing around all the time, you know? We need to be paying attention to our thought process. And we need to understand that the child that we're longing for, we're mad at, is the child of the King just like we are. And we just have to give it that grace. And God's gonna give you the mercy over that when you just surrender it to God. And like I said, once I did that and I was able to get off that boohoo fence, I have a lot of peace about it. I miss my son terribly, I will not lie. I miss him, my heart.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: I have a little bit of an achy in my heart when I talk about him because I really miss him terribly. I miss all the fun that we could be having, but he's living his life. He's living his life, you know, and doing what he's supposed to be doing. You know, like you said, we were designed for the part-time position of being the parent until they grow up and then they get to be who they're supposed to be. We need to let them go to the world and do what they're doing in the world. And we got to let them go on that.
Marit Welker: ⁓ Yeah. All right.
Mickey Woolery: And I just encourage anyone that goes through this, that once you do this though, God will bring you a peace over you, a peace over your child. I don't worry every single day like I did the first year and a half. I don't cry every day like I did the first year and a half. don't like, my friends would call me, have you heard from me? Have you heard? Cause you know, the word was getting out, you know? And I was like, ⁓ gosh. And because he affected a lot of people, not just myself, cause he affected the whole family.
Marit Welker: ⁓ Right.
Mickey Woolery: And some people would call me and they would vent to me about how, you know, he estranged them. And I'm like, I'm already hurting. I don't want to hear anymore, but I would try to make them feel comfortable and make them feel good. And it'd be like, it's not your fault. It's okay. It's this is what happens. You know, he's entitled to live his life. We are all entitled to live our life. We're not really supposed to hurt one another. We're supposed to love one another, but sometimes we have to do it from a distance. And I'll accept that the end of the earth.
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: is from east to west and north to south and somewhere in there he's still on the earth. He's still connected to me this world. ⁓ when we get to heaven, then we're bountifully connected. So I look at it like that, like he may not be here. Like if he's at work and he's away from me, well, that's where he is now. He's at work. Or if he's out on a date with his girlfriend, that's where he is now. ⁓ Or now think he's married, but I don't know. Wherever he is now that's not with me, he's still my son. He'll always be my son and I'll love him forever. I'll never stop loving, but I have to let that peace come so that I don't get destroyed. So it doesn't take away who I am, who God ⁓ my identity to be. And we do that as parents. We allow ⁓ identity to lose its purpose when our kids hurt us or when somebody hurts us. And it's not even just children, it's in relationships to people. We allow our identity to be stolen through that. And we're not supposed to do that. We're supposed to armor up, put on the armor of God every single day. you're supposed to grab the word of God, grab your sword. And if you're in season every single time, you're gonna be okay. But if you're out of season every time, you're not gonna be okay. Because the Bible says to be in and out of season, but ⁓ be prepared in and of season. So if you're out of season constantly, it doesn't work. If you're out of season constantly, it doesn't work. Because there's a harvest that has to happen.
Marit Welker: That's right.
Mickey Woolery: So you have to be in and out of season and be prepared all the time. And I'm just prepared. I'm prepared for Jesus to come back. So therefore, I'm prepared for my son to be in my life again. And that's how I'm just looking at it. like I said, it may not be on the side of heaven. And honestly, I'm OK with that. The rejoicing is going to come because God knows what rejoicing we need. He gives us what we need. So we have to look at it like that, if that makes any sense.
Marit Welker: Right. That's right. Well, that is if you want sanity in your life and peace in your heart. That's how you have to look at it. Mickey, your experience is very painful, but I see how God has brought you friends. He's raised up friends to help you connect with other people who are going through this. And I see how ⁓ the lessons you've learned, are you much stronger because of going through this? Are you closer to God?
Mickey Woolery: Yes. Yes. you I'm absolutely closer to God. I will say that. ⁓ I've always been close to God since I was saved at 10 years old, because Jesus has just been my best friend. But ⁓ I have been in my own despair where I have walked away from God or mad at God or upset with God because I didn't think something was fair or right or it was unjust. So it ⁓
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: You know how you kind of backside and you walk away and you have to come back. God has always been just kind of slowly pulling me in. think if he would have just jerked me back, it wouldn't have been a good thing for me. I think as you, as he pulls you back and you're going through the process, you learn. Like we say, sometimes baby steps are necessary. You know, even though we're full, full grown adults, we have to take baby steps sometimes because the fullness of it is too much for us to even imagine or fathom. can't, we can't figure it out that quickly. We have to go through the emotional part of it, heartache and the pain, then it gets broken down, then God sends somebody, you're thankful to God, and God's see, haven't left you or forsaken you, like my word says. ⁓ And ⁓ it's funny because I people, fulfills his promises, but what happens is we don't believe them. We don't believe in the promises. So ⁓ God's not going to fulfill a in you if you're not going to do anything with it. He wants you to have every promise in the Bible, but not if you're not gonna do something with it. He wants you to take that promise because he wants to give it to you. But if you're not gonna take it, why give it to you? He already knows where we're at in our walk with him. And he has built me up immensely. I talk to people all over the world now. As you know, I'm a podcast host and I have ⁓ five podcasts. And I talk on different levels in different areas, not specifically this one. I had thought about it. but I don't feel equipped to talk to people about this, but I do feel equipped to share my testimony in it because I do believe that some people are sitting in a lot of pain right now they are being, they're miserable. I was there folks, I was so miserable. ⁓ you didn't to be around me. I was cranky, I was crying. I sat and wallowed in my pain. And sometimes we do that, but here's the thing.
Marit Welker: Yeah. Yeah.
Mickey Woolery: You have to brush yourself off. You have to wipe yourself off and you have to get up and you have to get going. You have to get going. You can't just sit.
Marit Welker: And that's the last thing you want to do. Yeah, that's the last thing you want to do.
Mickey Woolery: Yes. It'll destroy you. Yeah. I think it'll eat you alive.
Marit Welker: but you're just gonna stay there in misery until you choose to act.
Mickey Woolery: Yes, I agree. And I decided that acting, you know, for not just for my sake, but and for my own health. And I'm talking mental health, not just physical health, but it your whole being. ⁓ But for the sanity of the people that were around me, I was I was becoming contagiously infectious in my my self pity where people I didn't you know, they were just like, maybe you should go see a counselor, maybe you should get some help, ⁓ because it it was it was rubbing off on me. I didn't want to be like that. I didn't want people feeling sorry for me. I didn't want any of that, ⁓ but some of that happened. And ⁓ I, I just back and corrected that and said, thank you for putting up with me. And I appreciate it, but I'm better now, just to let you know, ⁓ because ⁓ it's healthy. That's a healthy thing to do. I'm healthier for it. God blessed me through it immensely. And we need to just pray for our children, pray for our loved ones, pray for our friends and our family, pray for our government, pray for our nation. We should be praying. ⁓ And you know, it says we're supposed to worry about today or tomorrow. It's our God's already got it taken care of. So, the word of God really has come to life in through a lot of the heartache that I sat in. He really opened up the windows for me to see because I was in such darkness and I really needed that to come to pass in order to
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mickey Woolery: get where I am today. And now I can talk about my son and not just like literally lose it, you know, or, ⁓ a complete emotional mental breakdown over it. ⁓ I'm okay. I know that God's watching him, you know, there's angels all around him. So ⁓ I'm not worried about my son anymore. My a grown man. He's an adult and he's smart. ⁓ And then we got to tell ourselves that too. He's grown, you know, he's a grown person. ⁓
Marit Welker: right?
Mickey Woolery: We raised them not to be idiots, right? Like if we raise our kids, not to be foolish in the world, they're gonna do okay on their own. We have to trust that we did a good enough job and that God's gonna take it from here. So that's kind of where I'm at with him and miss him, miss him, miss him, but that's all we could do, right?
Marit Welker: Exactly. you can wallow in misery. It's the natural thing to do. It's easy thing to do. It's so overwhelming. ⁓ And I would fault anyone who's doing that. But I do invite you to step higher. And I do invite you to come closer to Christ because there is hope and there is joy and there is so much power that can be applied to your life to help you move forward.
Mickey Woolery: Right.
Marit Welker: And Mickey, how many of these podcasts did you have before The Estrangement.
Mickey Woolery: Yeah, I wasn't a podcaster before I was estranged. I became a podcaster after. It all came together afterwards.
Marit Welker: Okay. Now, do you think that this experience shaped you in some way that you felt you had to get God's word out?
Mickey Woolery: Absolutely, I think that ⁓ along with other podcasts because I have a ⁓ different different but I think that we don't understand the word of God fully and we don't understand the truth behind it. We don't understand the blessings and the promise and the mercy that God has on us because we all make mistakes. We're all sinners. We all fall short ⁓ and
Marit Welker: Mm-hmm.
Mickey Woolery: you know, and sometimes, know, like in the beginning, I wanted to blame myself 100 % for everything that happened. And I remember even my ex-husband was going, I just want you to know it's not your fault. I was like, none of this is your fault, you know? And even his wife and I'm glad they told me that, but still down deep, you still think to yourself, where did I go wrong? What did I do? What decisions could I have done better? You know, what actions could taken that were more appropriate?
Marit Welker: all. shame guilt.
Mickey Woolery: And the devil, that's the enemy, by the way, for those that are listening, if you don't know God, that's the enemy that is attacking you. And he's attacking you where every little nook and cranny that he can get in, he's going to do it. And if he can get you on shame or if he can get you on guilt or if he can get you to hurt or have pain or sit and wallow in that pit, that is a pit from hell, by the way. That's not the pit where God wants you to be. God doesn't want you in a pit. He wants you to thrive and he wants you to be filled with joy.
Marit Welker: That's right. That's right. That's right.
Mickey Woolery: Mm-hmm.
Marit Welker: Yep. He wants to rob you of all joy. Now, Mickey, Where can ⁓ this audience reach out to you and find you and learn more?
Mickey Woolery: ⁓ you can reach me at crushing strongholds.com and, ⁓ that's where my podcasts are launched. ⁓ there's episodes on there that can be watched and whatnot. there's a place where they can subscribe. didn't hear you. Crushing strongholds.com. ⁓ and so everything is in there. You can just subscribe. You can just send me a little message. I offer free prayer.
Marit Welker: crushing strongholds. crushing strongholds.
Mickey Woolery: We ⁓ just gotta get down to ⁓ seeing it for what it really is instead of what the enemy tries to make be. The enemy, if he keep you ⁓ from going after God, he will. So he's gonna make it, ⁓ you think that there's a mountain in front of when actually it's something you can just step right on top of. ⁓ And so ⁓ if you're struggling with that, you can reach me there and ⁓ I'll get back to and... and I'll get with you on whatever you need. It's all there.
Marit Welker: You're so sweet. Thank you so much for being here, Mickey. You've just been such a blessing to all of us. I know my life is enriched by hearing your story and seeing your faith and what a light you are to all of us. ⁓ I pray that God will bless you and strengthen you and keep holding you up as a light because there are so many of us that are hurting, are just facing our problem right in front of our face and are blinded to the bigger picture. And your story is just one of rescue, of moving forward and seeing beyond that by giving it to God. Thank you. That is also what I teach. And I wanted to let the audience know also, if you are listening, if your child has abandoned you, if you feel as they've divorced you and just kicked you to the curb, please know you're not alone. And you need to know one very important thing. And that is this, that your father in heaven understands better than ⁓ anyone on this planet. what that feels like. He has had more children reject him than you can imagine. He knows your heart. He knows your pain. And he's here waiting for you. He's waiting for you to like Mickey, come to him with the courage to make changes, the courage to grow, and I want to help you as well. If you feel like it's time to make some changes, you're going to be able to step up to start a five-day challenge I would be honored to walk with you on that path to restoring your identity as a daughter of God if you'd like to join me, go to maritwelker.com and sign up and we'll ⁓ get you taken care of. Help you get to more clarity and more peace. God has purposes for you and he will take that mother love that you've developed and even if you can't give it to your child right now, he wants to work, through you. God wants you to find meaning. where we work on your identity because it's been hurt, it's been injured, and it's time to repair it. It's time for you to be able to, like Mickey, see the bigger picture and to find your place in it so that you can wait with strength, with purpose, and with joy, even if it hasn't been resolved yet. That's what I teach you how to do. So go to and sign up for the challenge today. I look forward to seeing you next week on the Still Here podcast for Estranged Christian Moms God bless you.
