Interview: Hope for Your Neurodiverse Marriage: Practical Skills to Change Your Interactions

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You're listening to a podcast by Change
My Relationship, featuring

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licensed marriage and family therapist
and author Karla Downing.

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These podcast are designed to provide you
with practical solutions

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based on biblical truths
for all your relationships.

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Today, Karla will be interviewing a guest
who has experienced

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a relationship problem
and successfully worked through it.

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I'd like to welcome you
to Change my Relationship podcast.

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And I have with me today
kind of a combination.

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I do interviews with experts
and with people who have worked through

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a personal relationship struggle
and kind of come out on the other end.

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But Barbara Grant here today
qualifies for both of those.

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So, she's a dedicated
neurodiverse couples coach

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with both personal
and professional expertise

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in navigating the unique dynamics
of neurodiverse relationships.

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She holds a master's degree in marriage
and Family Therapy, and is a certified

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autism specialist and neurodiverse
couples coach.

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Her coaching is grounded,
grounded in her innovative roadmap to hope

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and healing, which we are going to talk
about some today.

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It's a research based, results
driven approach inspired by her own

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experiences within neurodiverse
marriage and family life.

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She is passionate
about helping individuals and couples

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heal, grow and determine
the sustainability of their relationships.

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Barbara
brings empathy and insight to her work.

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She's been featured on popular podcasts
such as Neurodiverse

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Love Your Neurodiverse Relationship
with Jodi Carlton

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and the Neurodiverse Christian Couples
Podcast, and additionally,

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she is the editor and a contributing
author of Uniquely Us Gracefully

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Navigating the Maze of Neurodiverse
Marriage, autism, and Faith.

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And I actually endorsed that book.

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I believe there's an endorsement from,

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Barbara currently
co-hosts the Neurodiverse Couples Coaches

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Corner podcast.

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I. So we're going to talk at the end
how you can get,

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in contact with her
and find out more about her information.

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But for now, Barbara, welcome.

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Thank you so much, Karla.

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And I'm such a big fan of your work,
and so much of the work you've done

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has really poured into my ministry
and my coaching work.

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So thanks to you for going
before me and opening your way.

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Well,
I love to hear that because it is honestly

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a labor of love and dedication.

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And so all you got to do.

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I am a type
A driven person with who is a choleric.

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And so when you tell me

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that my work has made an impact,
that's all I need to just boost me on.

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I'm going.

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Amen.

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I can't wait to be on the receiving
end of your hard work.

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Okay, so we're going to start off
with just talking

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about your marriage
to a neuro diverse man.

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Can you talks about that marriage?

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Well, so we married,

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gosh, a long time ago, I was he was older.

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I was getting older.

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And when I met him, he he liked Star Trek.

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He was interesting.

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He had a lot of interests. In, trivia.

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And we were both living on the West Coast,
but we were from back east.

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We were living from areas around
the metropolitan New York area.

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And, we had a lot in common,
I thought, and, I thought we hit it off,

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and we did actually, and getting,
getting into marriage was fine.

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He was often,

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even in early stages of the marriage,
watching television till late at night.

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And I, this happy
little waiting in the bedroom bride,

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was waiting for him
and was a little kind of confused.

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Like what?

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What is not working here?

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Like, why is TV more important than me?

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But, we just kept moving forward
and, had children

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and, there were,
there were times in our marriage

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where I just couldn't figure out
where he was coming from at all.

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And, I will say I was a very strong
willed woman.

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I was very articulate, a bit
like you of the type A, let's get it done.

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Bit driven and, very fast to process.

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And he was a lot more deer
in the headlights,

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going into freeze
instead of fight or flight.

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And even fawn, and, I always had the sense
that there was a lot

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going on under the hood
that he wasn't getting open about, that

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not in a cheating or diabolical way,

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but that there was he was holding
his cards close to his vest.

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And, I remember a time, even before
our children were born, when his parents,

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and I kind of challenged him
on that dynamic of his.

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And he was kind of mystified,

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like he really didn't know
what we were talking about.

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And we kind of just gave up trying
to help him

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be more transparent in his life.

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When we had kids,
he was a wonderful, playful dad.

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He was kind of like a big kid himself
in many ways.

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That was really lovely for fathering.

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But I, I often was more
the over functioning one.

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The looking forward down the road one
the worrying about

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how everything was balancing
and whether it was balancing.

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In fact, I was the one who really wanted
to have kids.

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He didn't regret having them,

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but I remember
he was already in his mid 40s

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when I was ready to go for it,
and he was like,

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I don't know that I'm old enough
to have kids.

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And I thought, I know.

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I thought like, what are you waiting for?

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I mean, you really don't
want to be 60 or 70 typically?

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Well, so I think what, we didn't
we never figured out while we were married

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that he was autistic and ADHD.

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All right.

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And what ended up happening is

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he had a very successful career,
which really fell apart on him.

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The industry changed that he was

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in, and his employer downsized
and he was a head that rolled.

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And he also had lost his mother
and then was losing his father,

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and he kind of just went underground.

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He he was in what
now I know was autistic and ADHD burnout.

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He had been living

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beyond his ability to navigate and cope
with a lot of things in life.

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Parenting, husbanding.

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the good thing about what happened
in that time of crisis

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in our marriage is we did come to faith,
we both, decided

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to look up Jesus Christ
and make him our Lord and Savior.

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And we got involved with the church.

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That was very much about discipling
and accountability.

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And we had couples
shepherding us for years.

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That's nice.

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but when that church kind of disbanded
and fell apart and the leadership

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moved out of the area,
we were kind of without support.

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And, we went to a new church
where the men were trying to help him

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get back on the horse
and kind of get with the program of life.

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I was working full time.

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I was juggling all the plates.

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I was pretty much like a single parent,
and I was becoming

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extremely angry,
bitter, afraid, resentful.

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And I tell it's a bad joke,
but I say, we did have it in common

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that he kind of wanted to die,
and I kind of wanted to kill him.

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Oh, and that's,
that's kind of where we were at.

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I started backing off
when the church kind of helped out to

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to work with him, but he, for one reason
or another, he didn't move out.

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He said, I just need time to sort of
I'm like, okay.

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And it just never gelled.

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He never came back into the marriage.

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He's he just moved further
and further out onto his own.

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He, he wanted to separate our finances
so that he could afford to

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not just be in a rented room.

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And when

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when we learned in California
that financial separation

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and divorce is almost the same process,
except you don't end up

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divorced, he basically said,
well, let's just let's just.

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End it and then I'm like, you know what?

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I've been life supporting this.

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I thought for so many years, like,
okay, let's do that.

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And it was such a sad ending, Karla, in
that I just didn't know what else to do.

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I couldn't
figure out why he wasn't showing up

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and suiting up, and I was tired.

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And I had kids that were now in
their teens and I was working full time.

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the good thing about

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our relationship was
we were always putting the kids first.

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We were always devoted to the children.

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And he was a good father, even
in the divorce and separation divorce.

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And he's always been there for the kids,
and I admire that in him.

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And, I ended up getting remarried
and in his,

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years after the the divorce,
I finally had my son

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diagnosed as being high functioning,
what is now autism.

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But back then, with Asperger's,
they didn't catch his ADHD

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at the time though they just back
then you could only have ADHD or autism.

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You couldn't have both in the DSM
or at that point I realized

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that my first husband had been
is was ADHD and autistic,

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but we had already moved towards
partnering more

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when he was sick with cancer
and some really depleted, health issues.

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I was able to take him into the home
I lived in.

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My kids and I took care of him,

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and we always were like brother and sister
in Christ sexually.

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When he met, the woman he then remarried.

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He kind of invited me
to have coffee with them,

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and she and I just fell in love
with each other.

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And, to this day, it's been years.

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We're on our 11th year of monthly
prayer calls.

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Me and the two of them.

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Wow. We are a three
way prayer warrior team,

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and I call each other the

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sister wives is kind of a joke,
But it's like, well, you united in Christ.

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And we've all had multiple marriages
and we've all given been given grace.

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And so we are going to give grace
and forgive.

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And in the in the years since then,
I've learned so much about autism

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and ADHD
because of my first husband, my kids.

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And now I realized, oh my goodness,
it was in my family of origin.

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I it it my grandfather,
my first cousin, my uncle.

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I see a little bit of it in my sisters.

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I think it's in my father's family
because I have first cousins

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who have contacted me.

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They see what I post on Facebook and,
they had they said,

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oh, yes, here in the Czech Republic,
we also are autistic.

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I'm like, okay,
so Karla was swimming in a sea of autism.

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And when you say to a fish, what's water?

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A fish is like,
I don't know what you're talking about.

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Well, I didn't, autism was familiar.

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It was family.

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It was the the air
I breathe, the language I spoke.

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So it was hard for me to discern.

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It was something that different
because it was what I was used to.

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That makes sense. Absolutely.

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Well, your kids are really lucky to have
parents that can work that well together.

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After a divorce.

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That's like the ideal situation.

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So that's wonderful.

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But well, so that's a lot of people

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that had autism
or neurodiversity around you.

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And we didn't get into the studies,
but there is a genetic component there

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80% plus. Yeah, definitely.

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But the main reason it's the main reason
people are thought to be autistic.

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Yeah.

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Because it is just more and more running,

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you know, in families like that
where you can see that so.

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Well.

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So you are a neurodiverse couples coach.

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So what's different
about being a neurodiverse couples coach

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and just being a regular couples coach or.

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Yeah, a therapist.

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So, I kind of backed into
this whole thing.

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I really did, I, was already
a biblical counselor at church for years,

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and I, I was running up against

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my lack of understanding
of psychological issues.

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So I got a master's in marriage
and family therapy.

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And concurrent with that,
I was having a lot

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of relational challenges
that were with neurodivergent people.

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And I found people who were able
to coach me in that relational situation.

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And I learned that neurodiversity,

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because of the, relational differences,
the processing

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differences, the sensitivities
of a neurodivergent person,

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the defensiveness often
they have rejection sensitive dysphoria.

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They, they have a different ability,
especially autistic people,

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to have theory of mind.

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Meaning they see their point of view.

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The word autism comes from the Greek word
autos and autos is self self.

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So automobile is a self moving
car, right?

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Automatic automotive. Right. And

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people

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that are autistic see the world
the way they see it,

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00:13:12,958 --> 00:13:16,862
they're self referencing,
but they have a hard time understanding.

235
00:13:16,862 --> 00:13:20,032
There are other points of view
that are equally valid

236
00:13:20,032 --> 00:13:25,437
and and can be entertained and considered,
in especially in relationship, which is

237
00:13:25,437 --> 00:13:30,442
I think why no matter what my in-laws
and I told my first husband didn't matter.

238
00:13:30,643 --> 00:13:32,878
He just couldn't see it. Right?

239
00:13:32,878 --> 00:13:36,849
Didn't see it, not because he didn't
want to, but because he couldn't.

240
00:13:38,350 --> 00:13:40,686
Yes or no, I'm going to I'm going to.

241
00:13:40,686 --> 00:13:43,923
I, I the natural tendency
is not to see it.

242
00:13:44,156 --> 00:13:45,691
Okay. All right.

243
00:13:45,691 --> 00:13:50,462
But there is an element of what I call
masking or shame.

244
00:13:51,030 --> 00:13:53,766
Deflection or

245
00:13:53,766 --> 00:13:57,102
fear that keeps people
not wanting to see it.

246
00:13:58,070 --> 00:14:00,039
Yeah, that's our defensive ness.

247
00:14:00,039 --> 00:14:01,006
Yes, because we did.

248
00:14:01,006 --> 00:14:02,641
Everybody can be in denial.

249
00:14:02,641 --> 00:14:06,145
Denial is an equal opportunity for life.

250
00:14:06,378 --> 00:14:10,783
You can't have autism and be in denial,
which is a complicating factor.

251
00:14:10,783 --> 00:14:13,018
Right? It's a complicating factor.

252
00:14:13,018 --> 00:14:17,823
And so anybody can be humble and teachable
that wants to be. Yes.

253
00:14:18,190 --> 00:14:18,624
All right.

254
00:14:18,624 --> 00:14:21,694
Because we don't believe
that the Lord created people

255
00:14:22,928 --> 00:14:23,529
to be

256
00:14:23,529 --> 00:14:27,199
programed
to just be doomed to their myopia.

257
00:14:27,466 --> 00:14:29,635
I don't believe that at all. Okay.

258
00:14:29,635 --> 00:14:34,773
And I know too many people
that are either autistic or ADHD or both,

259
00:14:34,773 --> 00:14:39,778
or have other learning challenges
that have overcome that and are working.

260
00:14:40,412 --> 00:14:43,315
You know, they're never going
to be the best relational.

261
00:14:43,315 --> 00:14:45,484
They're going to have to work. Right?

262
00:14:45,484 --> 00:14:46,085
Guess what?

263
00:14:46,085 --> 00:14:49,255
Helen Keller
had a lot of work to do in her life

264
00:14:49,521 --> 00:14:52,524
that to communicate and think and learn

265
00:14:52,524 --> 00:14:55,995
the way she did with all the strikes
against her that she had.

266
00:14:56,228 --> 00:14:59,565
Right. That good illustration. Absolutely.

267
00:14:59,565 --> 00:15:03,669
So it's possible where there's a will,
there's a way, and it isn't so much

268
00:15:03,669 --> 00:15:05,004
about how good you get at it.

269
00:15:05,004 --> 00:15:07,072
It's do you want to get better?

270
00:15:07,072 --> 00:15:08,140
Are you curious?

271
00:15:08,140 --> 00:15:11,677
Well, and I think it's really helpful
for a spouse who's struggling

272
00:15:11,677 --> 00:15:18,350
with all this to see even some willingness
to accept admit it.

273
00:15:18,584 --> 00:15:18,984
Yeah.

274
00:15:18,984 --> 00:15:22,254
And change it,
even if it isn't going to make that person

275
00:15:22,621 --> 00:15:25,524
like somebody that was a neurotypical.

276
00:15:25,524 --> 00:15:28,928
So you still going to have some struggles
and maybe some limitations, right.

277
00:15:29,328 --> 00:15:31,463
And that person is open.

278
00:15:31,463 --> 00:15:33,265
And we have to also define that

279
00:15:33,265 --> 00:15:36,268
because I work with couples
where both of them are autistic.

280
00:15:36,435 --> 00:15:37,803
And you know what,

281
00:15:37,803 --> 00:15:41,340
they have some executive
functioning challenges and they may have

282
00:15:41,340 --> 00:15:46,045
some needs to learn better
communication and problem resolution

283
00:15:46,045 --> 00:15:47,880
simply
because they're both in their own lanes

284
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,883
and they're not seeing each other's
point of view easily,

285
00:15:51,116 --> 00:15:55,387
but because they're both more independent

286
00:15:55,854 --> 00:15:58,824
and have their own special interests,
these people

287
00:15:58,824 --> 00:16:01,827
get along great in many ways.

288
00:16:02,261 --> 00:16:02,761
All right.

289
00:16:02,761 --> 00:16:07,132
It's that there's nothing I
and I really want to make sure I say

290
00:16:07,132 --> 00:16:11,103
this neurotypical does not mean we're
normal.

291
00:16:11,103 --> 00:16:14,506
Neurotypicals are normal
and neurodivergent people are abnormal.

292
00:16:14,673 --> 00:16:16,342
That is not what that means.

293
00:16:16,342 --> 00:16:20,646
Neurotypical is a statistical fact
that more people

294
00:16:21,113 --> 00:16:24,817
are in this place of non neurodiversity.

295
00:16:24,817 --> 00:16:27,920
The the, you know, the main curve
like the average person,

296
00:16:27,953 --> 00:16:30,923
the typical population is

297
00:16:30,923 --> 00:16:33,926
neurotypical is not neurodivergent.

298
00:16:34,093 --> 00:16:36,695
Neurodivergent is more different,
just different.

299
00:16:36,695 --> 00:16:39,131
I don't call it a disorder.

300
00:16:39,131 --> 00:16:42,101
Okay, so the DSM five still does.

301
00:16:42,101 --> 00:16:44,203
It is a wiring difference.

302
00:16:44,203 --> 00:16:45,404
Okay, okay.

303
00:16:45,404 --> 00:16:48,474
The people are often Stradivarius violins.

304
00:16:48,474 --> 00:16:50,743
They are not banjos. Right.

305
00:16:50,743 --> 00:16:54,013
And how a neurotypical partner

306
00:16:54,013 --> 00:16:57,883
relates to her or his neurodiverse spouse

307
00:16:58,283 --> 00:17:02,187
is important
for that to get educated sure,

308
00:17:02,688 --> 00:17:07,393
and my coaching is never about
oh, let's make the one more like you.

309
00:17:08,027 --> 00:17:12,431
It's like, no, oh, you're Mandarin
Chinese, and this person is Swahili.

310
00:17:12,431 --> 00:17:17,302
Let's learn to find a unified language,
a unified understanding,

311
00:17:17,302 --> 00:17:20,806
and midway point appropriate expectations.

312
00:17:20,973 --> 00:17:22,841
Lean in.

313
00:17:22,841 --> 00:17:24,743
Everybody has to grow and change.

314
00:17:25,878 --> 00:17:26,745
Okay.

315
00:17:26,745 --> 00:17:32,351
And too many people that I work with come
with other issues besides neurodiversity.

316
00:17:32,351 --> 00:17:33,519
So true.

317
00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:37,589
it's a complicating issue,
but it's not the only issue involved.

318
00:17:37,823 --> 00:17:40,526
Exactly
that which makes it. Yeah, definitely.

319
00:17:40,526 --> 00:17:45,764
So you're saying that without a doubt,
if there is a neurodiverse partner

320
00:17:46,265 --> 00:17:49,268
that wants to learn
about their neurodiversity

321
00:17:49,601 --> 00:17:55,808
and is going to understand
that they are self referencing

322
00:17:55,808 --> 00:17:59,078
and that they tend to only see their self,
what is it take?

323
00:17:59,078 --> 00:18:04,149
Can they self trigger to listen
to, to tell themselves,

324
00:18:04,383 --> 00:18:08,921
oh, I need to listen to my spouses
so they can do that.

325
00:18:08,921 --> 00:18:14,359
They can learn to self trigger themselves
to be aware.

326
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,598
Yes, I know that by asking questions, by
how do they do that?

327
00:18:20,065 --> 00:18:22,768
Well, sometimes they might need a prompt

328
00:18:22,768 --> 00:18:25,771
that they're missing something okay.

329
00:18:25,838 --> 00:18:26,305
All right.

330
00:18:26,305 --> 00:18:32,277
And so my coaching is built on the fact
that we all have neuroplastic brains.

331
00:18:32,277 --> 00:18:34,179
Karla. Okay.

332
00:18:34,179 --> 00:18:38,684
God made the human being
the most adaptable creature on the planet.

333
00:18:39,151 --> 00:18:43,355
We have proven over millennia
that we can live in ice ages.

334
00:18:43,355 --> 00:18:45,691
We can live in deserts.
We can live on water.

335
00:18:45,691 --> 00:18:48,193
We can live in jungles.
We can live on mountaintops.

336
00:18:48,193 --> 00:18:51,063
We can live in war zones.
We can live in drought.

337
00:18:51,063 --> 00:18:53,632
We can live, and forge new.

338
00:18:53,632 --> 00:18:55,901
We can cross oceans. We can find our way.

339
00:18:55,901 --> 00:19:01,140
Like our brains
are outstandingly learning machines.

340
00:19:01,340 --> 00:19:03,675
If we know how to use them.

341
00:19:03,675 --> 00:19:04,009
All right.

342
00:19:04,009 --> 00:19:08,780
So the brain is
you and I are the way we are.

343
00:19:08,780 --> 00:19:10,716
We could say, well,
that's just the way I am.

344
00:19:10,716 --> 00:19:13,285
And you saying I'm a Type-A.

345
00:19:13,285 --> 00:19:17,956
Well, that's the way you're behaving
right now based on a lot of programing.

346
00:19:18,724 --> 00:19:19,324
True.

347
00:19:19,324 --> 00:19:19,791
All right.

348
00:19:19,791 --> 00:19:22,794
And when we're little,
we start getting programed.

349
00:19:23,095 --> 00:19:24,730
We see things. We don't know anything.

350
00:19:24,730 --> 00:19:27,366
We're like a blank motherboard
coming into the world.

351
00:19:27,366 --> 00:19:30,869
And how our parents treat us,
how our caregivers handles

352
00:19:30,869 --> 00:19:33,872
our siblings,
what the world tells us about ourselves.

353
00:19:33,939 --> 00:19:38,610
This is where attachment issues
develop or attachment styles, form

354
00:19:39,044 --> 00:19:44,716
and patterns of behavior,
patterns of thinking, a truth, believing

355
00:19:44,716 --> 00:19:49,221
certain things, feeling a feeling
with that, and acting in that.

356
00:19:49,221 --> 00:19:53,992
I call that a data set because what
you think, what you feel and what you do,

357
00:19:54,793 --> 00:19:58,730
and if you do the same thing,
what thought, feeling and behavior?

358
00:19:58,730 --> 00:20:00,799
Oh, repeatedly.

359
00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:03,235
Our brain is an automation machine.

360
00:20:03,235 --> 00:20:06,238
Our brain is going to go,
oh, that's he's creating a habit here.

361
00:20:06,238 --> 00:20:07,606
Let's program that.

362
00:20:07,606 --> 00:20:10,609
So it now builds neural synaptic networks

363
00:20:10,742 --> 00:20:14,179
that are housing that act
that that pattern.

364
00:20:14,613 --> 00:20:18,650
And I know this because, for instance,
I'll be at church Sunday morning,

365
00:20:18,650 --> 00:20:19,918
I come out of church, I'm like,

366
00:20:19,918 --> 00:20:23,388
I need to go get eggs
so I can do my baking this afternoon.

367
00:20:24,022 --> 00:20:26,225
And I start talking
and I'm listening to music.

368
00:20:26,225 --> 00:20:28,460
And where do I end up? In my driveway?

369
00:20:29,895 --> 00:20:30,829
Because I'm running the

370
00:20:30,829 --> 00:20:34,733
drive home program,
not the go get eggs program.

371
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,304
All right, so for me to get eggs,
I have to put something on my dashboard

372
00:20:39,571 --> 00:20:40,739
that we're looking at it at

373
00:20:40,739 --> 00:20:45,143
several of the stoplights coming up to go,
okay, keep going to the same site.

374
00:20:45,143 --> 00:20:47,579
The older we get that, the more we do that

375
00:20:47,579 --> 00:20:51,149
automatic program
and forget those things. So.

376
00:20:51,583 --> 00:20:52,718
Well, yes or no?

377
00:20:52,718 --> 00:20:56,255
Yes or no
because the brain is neuroplasticity

378
00:20:56,255 --> 00:21:00,792
till we die unless we have a real brain
injury or a brain problem.

379
00:21:00,792 --> 00:21:01,760
All right.

380
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,730
And this,
this saying, oh, you can teach an old dog

381
00:21:04,730 --> 00:21:08,433
that's complete
nonsense is complete nonsense.

382
00:21:08,433 --> 00:21:08,734
All right.

383
00:21:08,734 --> 00:21:12,237
Because some of the most alive
and learning people on the planet

384
00:21:12,237 --> 00:21:15,807
are in their decades of 80s and even 90s.

385
00:21:15,807 --> 00:21:17,843
I myself, I'm going to be 68.

386
00:21:17,843 --> 00:21:20,112
I've just finished my master's degree.

387
00:21:20,112 --> 00:21:22,881
I've got a whole new career going.
I'm helping my books.

388
00:21:22,881 --> 00:21:25,851
I mean, I this is not what I was doing
ten years ago.

389
00:21:25,851 --> 00:21:29,655
It's all new to me and I'm pretty
geared up to keep learning and growing.

390
00:21:29,821 --> 00:21:33,425
But I understand that in order
to do something new

391
00:21:33,425 --> 00:21:36,428
and make a new, better behavior my habit,

392
00:21:37,029 --> 00:21:40,666
I have to first identify the old habit
I want to stop,

393
00:21:41,433 --> 00:21:46,071
and I can’t actually erase that program,
or I can only program over it.

394
00:21:46,071 --> 00:21:49,908
I can only, you know,
get a bug fix and make a new program.

395
00:21:49,908 --> 00:21:54,746
And then when my brain sees that I have
both things that I'm doing, it'll go well.

396
00:21:54,780 --> 00:21:58,517
She know she has
she shouldn't have an auto pilot.

397
00:21:58,517 --> 00:22:03,655
She's she's got an option for me
to keep making the new behavior my habit.

398
00:22:03,655 --> 00:22:06,925
I have to practice it
because practice does not make perfect.

399
00:22:06,925 --> 00:22:08,493
It makes it permanent. Yeah.

400
00:22:09,695 --> 00:22:13,699
And in time, I am going to do this thing.

401
00:22:13,699 --> 00:22:16,702
If I want to buy eggs every Sunday.

402
00:22:17,102 --> 00:22:20,972
I would end up in the parking
lot of Safeway, not in my driveway.

403
00:22:20,972 --> 00:22:23,975
Even if I wanted to be in my driveway.

404
00:22:24,109 --> 00:22:25,610
Understood.

405
00:22:25,610 --> 00:22:25,977
Okay.

406
00:22:25,977 --> 00:22:28,046
So we're talking a little bit

407
00:22:28,046 --> 00:22:31,950
kind of a little bit
about the things that are included, I'm

408
00:22:31,950 --> 00:22:36,054
sure, in your roadmap to hope and healing,
which is for couples and individuals

409
00:22:36,054 --> 00:22:39,825
wanting to make their neurodiverse
relationship better.

410
00:22:39,991 --> 00:22:40,625
Yeah.

411
00:22:40,625 --> 00:22:45,697
And one of the things that you have on
there is to give grace and space.

412
00:22:45,697 --> 00:22:47,899
Yeah. What is that,

413
00:22:47,899 --> 00:22:49,534
well, grace and space.

414
00:22:49,534 --> 00:22:53,038
It seems to me
that when couples come in to coaching

415
00:22:53,038 --> 00:22:56,375
and I was this way in my marriage,
I was like, fit to be tied.

416
00:22:56,375 --> 00:22:58,910
Like, you know, he wanted to die
and I wanted to kill him.

417
00:22:58,910 --> 00:23:02,547
There was people
are just so at odds and so raw

418
00:23:02,781 --> 00:23:08,720
and so not able to productively team
pretty much on anything.

419
00:23:09,321 --> 00:23:11,623
And one wants to blame the other,

420
00:23:11,623 --> 00:23:14,760
and no one wants to really see
what the log is in their own eye.

421
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,929
And so I am encouraging people.

422
00:23:17,929 --> 00:23:20,298
In fact, I don't work with them together.

423
00:23:20,298 --> 00:23:22,868
They start separately in my coaching

424
00:23:22,868 --> 00:23:25,937
because the neurotypical
has a whole lot of things to learn

425
00:23:25,937 --> 00:23:29,274
that are very different than what
the neurodiverse person has to learn.

426
00:23:29,741 --> 00:23:33,445
And I have to figure out what each of them
are all about, and they have to

427
00:23:33,445 --> 00:23:38,016
both trust me and I have to start being
translator for the two of them, all right?

428
00:23:38,016 --> 00:23:41,887
And I want them to calm down, get in their
own lane, take the log out of their own.

429
00:23:41,887 --> 00:23:45,190
I figure out what, of all the things,
self-care,

430
00:23:45,424 --> 00:23:47,492
setting your own goals for growth.

431
00:23:47,492 --> 00:23:48,994
Understanding your neuro

432
00:23:48,994 --> 00:23:53,031
profile, understanding the others,
understanding what the damage has been.

433
00:23:53,031 --> 00:23:57,035
Understanding if there's past trauma
and attachment stuff you each need to deal

434
00:23:57,035 --> 00:24:00,405
with separately
that had been brought into the marriage.

435
00:24:00,806 --> 00:24:04,443
Learning how to be self-controlled,
how to do somatic body

436
00:24:04,443 --> 00:24:09,414
exercises, how to calm down right,
and also learning

437
00:24:09,414 --> 00:24:13,251
that you're responsible
for your emotional behavior outbursts.

438
00:24:13,752 --> 00:24:17,956
Nobody makes somebody abusive
or sinful in their anger.

439
00:24:18,790 --> 00:24:21,493
And anger is not a sin, right?

440
00:24:21,493 --> 00:24:24,262
We can sin in our anger, right?

441
00:24:24,262 --> 00:24:29,267
So and also learning about boundaries
which so far, nobody coming into coaching

442
00:24:29,267 --> 00:24:33,905
that I've worked with has ever said, oh,
I totally have boundaries figured out.

443
00:24:34,105 --> 00:24:37,843
They said, oh, I've read this book,
or I've read that book, and I'm like,

444
00:24:38,910 --> 00:24:40,612
takeouts are not work.

445
00:24:40,612 --> 00:24:42,013
Yeah, the book is one thing.

446
00:24:42,013 --> 00:24:44,349
Applying it is another. Exactly. Right?

447
00:24:44,349 --> 00:24:48,086
So so that's why
I put them in their own track.

448
00:24:48,086 --> 00:24:52,557
And what I ask them to do is, listen,
you are not equipped right now

449
00:24:52,691 --> 00:24:55,694
to talk about anything important
with the other.

450
00:24:56,061 --> 00:24:58,296
You cannot solve problems.

451
00:24:58,296 --> 00:25:00,098
If you could, you wouldn't be in coaching.

452
00:25:00,098 --> 00:25:00,932
Very true.

453
00:25:00,932 --> 00:25:04,603
You don't have the tools,
you don't have the bandwidth emotionally.

454
00:25:04,903 --> 00:25:07,172
You don't have the understanding.

455
00:25:07,172 --> 00:25:09,908
You don't know how
not to make your own mistakes.

456
00:25:09,908 --> 00:25:12,110
You don't know how not to get triggered.

457
00:25:12,110 --> 00:25:14,613
You don't know how to not trigger them.

458
00:25:14,613 --> 00:25:18,583
So right now, other than asking,
what you wanted the grocery store?

459
00:25:18,583 --> 00:25:20,085
What time should I have dinner ready?

460
00:25:20,085 --> 00:25:22,053
Or some very logistic things.

461
00:25:22,053 --> 00:25:26,024
I really don't want couples
taking on big, weighty things

462
00:25:26,024 --> 00:25:29,861
like buying a house
or building an addition in the backyard.

463
00:25:29,861 --> 00:25:30,295
Or like

464
00:25:30,295 --> 00:25:34,065
this is not the time to do that coaching
or trying even to fix their relationship.

465
00:25:34,499 --> 00:25:36,701
No failed attempts
that they've done in the past.

466
00:25:36,701 --> 00:25:37,502
Exactly.

467
00:25:37,502 --> 00:25:39,170
We need to take a timeout

468
00:25:39,170 --> 00:25:42,774
and everybody needs to give themselves
and the other space.

469
00:25:43,475 --> 00:25:46,678
And grace and and compassion for self

470
00:25:46,678 --> 00:25:49,881
and other and lean in to hopefulness.

471
00:25:50,315 --> 00:25:51,917
Right and right.

472
00:25:51,917 --> 00:25:54,452
Right there
Carla. When couples stop fighting

473
00:25:55,487 --> 00:25:58,256
and get calm down

474
00:25:58,256 --> 00:26:03,562
the atmosphere clears and
and they because many of them do want

475
00:26:03,562 --> 00:26:08,366
what's best they want to be better and
they want the other person to feel better.

476
00:26:08,967 --> 00:26:13,305
And it's now we're starting
to accent the positive lift up

477
00:26:13,305 --> 00:26:16,508
what's going well, celebrate the good.

478
00:26:16,508 --> 00:26:18,443
See the good right?

479
00:26:18,443 --> 00:26:21,446
Which is often
not seen when you're in the midst of.

480
00:26:21,913 --> 00:26:23,448
Exactly. Struggles.

481
00:26:23,448 --> 00:26:24,115
Exactly.

482
00:26:24,115 --> 00:26:26,051
You just see the bad
and the other is the enemy.

483
00:26:26,051 --> 00:26:27,919
You're an enemy mode, right?

484
00:26:27,919 --> 00:26:30,922
So, that's what space and Grace is about.

485
00:26:30,922 --> 00:26:35,460
And ideally, space and grace
becomes a habit for each of them

486
00:26:35,460 --> 00:26:39,164
that they can take into all the marriage
coming ahead of them,

487
00:26:39,364 --> 00:26:42,400
all their relationships
with all their relationships,

488
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,470
grace and space
for all of our relationships.

489
00:26:45,904 --> 00:26:47,372
That's exactly right.

490
00:26:47,372 --> 00:26:51,209
And I love it that you said that,
because though I’m coaching for this

491
00:26:51,209 --> 00:26:54,212
relationship of theirs is marriage.

492
00:26:54,212 --> 00:26:57,882
I tell them, I say, look,
if you get involved with what I teach you,

493
00:26:58,083 --> 00:27:02,253
you will be a better relationship person
360 degrees.

494
00:27:02,253 --> 00:27:03,722
You'll be a better parent,

495
00:27:03,722 --> 00:27:08,226
a better daughter, a better employee,
a better boss, a better neighbor.

496
00:27:09,027 --> 00:27:10,862
You'll just be better
because you'll understand

497
00:27:10,862 --> 00:27:13,098
what's healthy in relationship
and what's not.

498
00:27:13,098 --> 00:27:15,367
Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's really good.

499
00:27:15,367 --> 00:27:16,368
And then you talk.

500
00:27:16,368 --> 00:27:19,004
You did mention, self-care
and self-control.

501
00:27:19,004 --> 00:27:20,572
You elaborated a little bit on that.

502
00:27:20,572 --> 00:27:24,843
So I want to jump to having you
go into a little bit more about conquering

503
00:27:24,843 --> 00:27:26,344
shame and blame.

504
00:27:26,344 --> 00:27:27,612
Okay.

505
00:27:27,612 --> 00:27:30,749
So, I believe that shade of blame

506
00:27:30,749 --> 00:27:34,386
is the deep
wound of the entire human race.

507
00:27:34,719 --> 00:27:37,722
Yeah. All right. When I'm from sin.

508
00:27:37,922 --> 00:27:39,257
Well, it does, it does.

509
00:27:39,257 --> 00:27:44,796
It comes from our response to sin, you
know, because notice that in the garden,

510
00:27:45,263 --> 00:27:49,000
when they when they fell into shame
and fear and hiding.

511
00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:52,537
Yeah,
they kind of forgot who God really was.

512
00:27:53,405 --> 00:27:55,907
And nobody said, hey,
you know, he's a good father.

513
00:27:55,907 --> 00:27:56,975
He's been a great guy.

514
00:27:56,975 --> 00:28:00,078
Let's just go and tell him what happened
and see if he can fix this.

515
00:28:00,078 --> 00:28:03,014
Oh, they lied, but what? I mean.

516
00:28:03,014 --> 00:28:07,585
But it didn't even occur to them
that they could say they're sorry, right?

517
00:28:07,619 --> 00:28:10,622
Nobody apologizes in the Garden of Eden.

518
00:28:10,955 --> 00:28:13,825
And and God is like,
hey, guys, I'm in the grace business.

519
00:28:13,825 --> 00:28:14,626
I'm here. See?

520
00:28:14,626 --> 00:28:16,161
But you're not asking for that.

521
00:28:16,161 --> 00:28:19,164
You're blaming each other
and so blame Karla

522
00:28:19,664 --> 00:28:23,134
is the, like where there's smoke,
there's a fire.

523
00:28:23,268 --> 00:28:26,104
You know,
where there's blame, there's shame.

524
00:28:27,572 --> 00:28:30,709
Blame is what we throw when we feel shame.

525
00:28:30,842 --> 00:28:32,644
Absolutely right.

526
00:28:32,644 --> 00:28:35,246
We I love that that's what they want.

527
00:28:35,246 --> 00:28:36,881
So we can remember that.

528
00:28:36,881 --> 00:28:40,285
So if if I'm blaming

529
00:28:41,252 --> 00:28:44,222
and I don't want to say well okay
she has a lot of problems but

530
00:28:44,222 --> 00:28:45,156
I'm the husband or

531
00:28:45,156 --> 00:28:49,461
he has a lot of problems, but I'm the wife
I need to look at what I'm doing.

532
00:28:49,728 --> 00:28:52,030
Yeah, I need to take responsibility

533
00:28:52,030 --> 00:28:55,533
for what I can control
because I can’t control what he is doing,

534
00:28:56,067 --> 00:29:00,205
and I don't have to shame him,
and I don't have to be shamed.

535
00:29:00,605 --> 00:29:03,842
So part of space and grace is stop
shaming each other,

536
00:29:04,142 --> 00:29:06,144
stop blaming and shaming each other.

537
00:29:06,144 --> 00:29:09,080
And that shame won't is a habit.

538
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:14,285
Yes, it's a deep, deep habit for some
people, especially neurodivergent people,

539
00:29:14,285 --> 00:29:18,022
because they've been in hiding
and fear a good part of their lives.

540
00:29:18,123 --> 00:29:19,424
Yeah, right.

541
00:29:19,424 --> 00:29:22,427
they learned at a young age,
I'm a little different.

542
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,396
And somehow they get the vibe, like,
get better,

543
00:29:25,396 --> 00:29:28,633
not tell anybody about this,
and I better act.

544
00:29:28,633 --> 00:29:32,036
I better mask
better get my fig leafs on in place.

545
00:29:32,437 --> 00:29:36,474
And if somebody comes looking underneath
my I'm like, no, everything's fine.

546
00:29:36,775 --> 00:29:37,909
There's nothing here.

547
00:29:37,909 --> 00:29:40,912
These are not the droids
you're looking for or whatever.

548
00:29:41,045 --> 00:29:44,849
So you want to
you want to help them both.

549
00:29:45,083 --> 00:29:45,917
Look at that part.

550
00:29:45,917 --> 00:29:48,019
And that component does make things worse.

551
00:29:48,019 --> 00:29:53,291
And both people
are dealing with their own shame,

552
00:29:53,291 --> 00:29:57,796
because we all have layers of shame
from our childhood

553
00:29:57,996 --> 00:30:03,201
and our prior relationship experiences
in so many different layers.

554
00:30:03,201 --> 00:30:06,204
So I think that's that's
absolutely wonderful.

555
00:30:06,304 --> 00:30:10,475
Another goal that you talk about is
and this is all written out for people on

556
00:30:10,475 --> 00:30:14,112
your website and at the end will tell them
how to go access this and look at it.

557
00:30:14,813 --> 00:30:17,182
Another goal is perspective taking.

558
00:30:17,182 --> 00:30:21,319
I think you talked a little bit
about that at beginning, where you've kind

559
00:30:21,319 --> 00:30:25,323
of got to understand where the other
person is coming from. But

560
00:30:26,391 --> 00:30:27,725
can this help?

561
00:30:27,725 --> 00:30:31,462
Also,
if only the neurotypical partner does it,

562
00:30:31,462 --> 00:30:35,934
what if the neurodiverse partner
isn't able or willing

563
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,438
to look at the other person's perspective?

564
00:30:40,672 --> 00:30:43,107
Does it help if there's only one?

565
00:30:43,107 --> 00:30:44,008
Absolutely.

566
00:30:44,008 --> 00:30:46,377
And that's a big I do actually.

567
00:30:46,377 --> 00:30:50,982
My my largest client base
are usually the neurotypical women

568
00:30:50,982 --> 00:30:54,619
whose husbands either
don't want to come into coaching or,

569
00:30:54,886 --> 00:30:59,991
aren't aren't are only interested
in a little help, but not where it can go

570
00:30:59,991 --> 00:31:03,061
the other way, though sometimes
I just work with the autistic people

571
00:31:03,061 --> 00:31:08,399
and they are incredibly dedicated,
and their neurotypical partners have like,

572
00:31:08,466 --> 00:31:10,702
dismissed them and left them or whatever.

573
00:31:10,702 --> 00:31:14,873
So perspective taking a lot of perspective

574
00:31:14,873 --> 00:31:18,176
taking is
how the information is given to us.

575
00:31:18,509 --> 00:31:19,177
All right.

576
00:31:19,177 --> 00:31:23,615
So if it's given with shame and blame
and anger, nobody is open to hearing that.

577
00:31:24,082 --> 00:31:26,217
Everybody is going to be,
on the defensive.

578
00:31:26,217 --> 00:31:27,785
They're in enemy mode, right?

579
00:31:27,785 --> 00:31:29,287
Automatically shut. Right.

580
00:31:29,287 --> 00:31:32,790
So a lot of what I have to teach,
even the neurotypical or whoever

581
00:31:32,790 --> 00:31:36,995
wants to learn, is
how to say how to speak the truth in love.

582
00:31:37,362 --> 00:31:38,830
And I have this whole thing, the boundary

583
00:31:38,830 --> 00:31:40,965
love sandwich,
where we say something loving,

584
00:31:40,965 --> 00:31:43,501
we cite them on something,
we say something loving.

585
00:31:43,501 --> 00:31:47,071
We invite them to a different behavior
and we love them again.

586
00:31:47,472 --> 00:31:49,340
So lots of love.

587
00:31:49,340 --> 00:31:51,209
I say don't even verbally say this.

588
00:31:51,209 --> 00:31:52,277
Send it in a text

589
00:31:52,277 --> 00:31:55,880
with a lot of love, little hearts
all over it so they think it's good news.

590
00:31:56,180 --> 00:31:58,049
It is good news, okay.

591
00:31:58,049 --> 00:31:59,517
It's a lot of affirmation.

592
00:31:59,517 --> 00:32:02,487
And then, you know, a simple ask

593
00:32:03,087 --> 00:32:06,057
without it being an accusation, all right.

594
00:32:06,057 --> 00:32:08,593
But it has to be done. Well.

595
00:32:08,593 --> 00:32:12,897
And this is what I teach the one if
there was only one partner in the country.

596
00:32:12,897 --> 00:32:14,999
So you have to learn
how to be a good communicator.

597
00:32:14,999 --> 00:32:19,203
You have to learn to listen and validate,
and then you have to speak

598
00:32:19,203 --> 00:32:24,876
clearly Not 29 sentences
but two and see if they're tracking.

599
00:32:24,876 --> 00:32:27,445
We do a lot of active listening.

600
00:32:27,445 --> 00:32:27,845
Right?

601
00:32:27,845 --> 00:32:32,550
So if I'm saying several things,
even to an autistic client,

602
00:32:32,550 --> 00:32:36,688
I will stop and say, so mirror back to me
what that meant to you.

603
00:32:37,288 --> 00:32:42,360
Let's see if I said it in a way that
you understand what I'm trying to say,

604
00:32:42,627 --> 00:32:46,564
because I might have said it wrong
and it can mirror back to me.

605
00:32:46,998 --> 00:32:48,366
Then I can go, oh, okay, great.

606
00:32:48,366 --> 00:32:51,970
So let me build on that now
and I can give them more information.

607
00:32:52,403 --> 00:32:55,406
Perspective
taking is a lot about communication.

608
00:32:55,773 --> 00:32:57,008
It's just a lot.

609
00:32:57,008 --> 00:32:59,877
And there needs to be
a lot of good communication

610
00:32:59,877 --> 00:33:03,648
because like Helen Keller needed braille
and specific hand.

611
00:33:04,182 --> 00:33:07,118
she needed certain kinds of communication
or she wasn't getting it.

612
00:33:08,586 --> 00:33:10,722
And, we have to learn to help

613
00:33:10,722 --> 00:33:14,492
each other and get on each other's
communication wavelength better.

614
00:33:14,592 --> 00:33:17,228
So and then I love that boundary so much.

615
00:33:17,228 --> 00:33:19,831
I, I teach a class on boundaries, too,
as you know.

616
00:33:19,831 --> 00:33:21,599
So I'm really big on boundaries.

617
00:33:21,599 --> 00:33:23,201
But I like that idea.

618
00:33:23,201 --> 00:33:27,305
And I think I did that
without even knowing that you taught that.

619
00:33:27,438 --> 00:33:27,939
Yeah.

620
00:33:27,939 --> 00:33:32,643
The other day with my husband, we've got a
a senile dog, little pup, little dog,

621
00:33:33,211 --> 00:33:36,214
the rat terrier about 15 pounds.

622
00:33:36,381 --> 00:33:38,049
And is on the bed.

623
00:33:38,049 --> 00:33:41,652
My husband gets up early
and then he goes about his business.

624
00:33:41,652 --> 00:33:44,522
But the dog will wake me too early
because I stay up late.

625
00:33:44,522 --> 00:33:48,426
So I'm like, please, when you get up,
just take the dog out

626
00:33:48,426 --> 00:33:51,662
to go to the bathroom
so that he won't wake me up.

627
00:33:52,030 --> 00:33:54,098
Like right after you leave.

628
00:33:54,098 --> 00:33:56,167
And so he does it.

629
00:33:56,167 --> 00:34:00,271
But he lets the dog walk back

630
00:34:00,271 --> 00:34:04,342
with the nails on the floor into the room,
which wakes me up anyway.

631
00:34:05,009 --> 00:34:08,012
So I was annoyed,

632
00:34:08,212 --> 00:34:12,250
but I went up to him
and I put my arms nicely around him.

633
00:34:12,483 --> 00:34:16,020
I looked at him about this far away
and I said, thank you

634
00:34:16,020 --> 00:34:20,291
for doing such a great job
taking the dog out every morning.

635
00:34:21,225 --> 00:34:23,828
Could you just do one extra thing?

636
00:34:23,828 --> 00:34:27,098
Could you please carry him
back into the bedroom

637
00:34:27,098 --> 00:34:30,268
so he doesn't wake me up
with his nails on the floor?

638
00:34:30,835 --> 00:34:33,304
And he said, okay, I'll try.

639
00:34:33,304 --> 00:34:35,673
I'll really try to do better with that.

640
00:34:35,673 --> 00:34:37,575
If there's this.

641
00:34:37,575 --> 00:34:39,510
Perfect. Yeah.

642
00:34:39,510 --> 00:34:42,980
if you had thrown a pillow and yelled
and said, you idiot, can't you understand?

643
00:34:42,980 --> 00:34:46,751
Like that's not going to get
you like more flies or not?

644
00:34:47,118 --> 00:34:49,787
And then he said, well,
I'm not going to stand at the door

645
00:34:49,787 --> 00:34:52,790
and wait for him and I do.

646
00:34:52,790 --> 00:34:55,126
I would stand at the door
and wait for him. Okay.

647
00:34:55,126 --> 00:34:57,662
But I didn't say, oh, well,
that's the problem.

648
00:34:57,662 --> 00:34:59,897
you don't have the right mindset.

649
00:34:59,897 --> 00:35:02,500
You're not willing to stand at the door
and wait for him.

650
00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:03,468
I just said,

651
00:35:03,468 --> 00:35:07,438
well, could you just try to make sure
that you carry him into the room?

652
00:35:07,738 --> 00:35:10,475
And so it went, I love it.
It went so well.

653
00:35:10,475 --> 00:35:13,478
Now, not guaranteed to always go
well depends on the content,

654
00:35:13,711 --> 00:35:18,749
but it's going to go a whole lot
better with anyone if you do it that way.

655
00:35:19,016 --> 00:35:24,422
I think so then yeah, an accusation
or a demand or a criticism with a demand.

656
00:35:24,622 --> 00:35:25,756
Absolutely.

657
00:35:25,756 --> 00:35:28,759
And different issues
have to be handled differently.

658
00:35:28,759 --> 00:35:33,464
The more upset I am, the more careful
I need to be

659
00:35:33,664 --> 00:35:38,302
in how I frame up what I want to say
and sometimes wait.

660
00:35:38,603 --> 00:35:40,471
I mean, oh, waiting is great.

661
00:35:40,471 --> 00:35:42,874
Waiting is really like,
not just count to ten.

662
00:35:42,874 --> 00:35:45,376
Like count to 300, count to seven days.

663
00:35:45,376 --> 00:35:46,611
I mean, like count.

664
00:35:46,611 --> 00:35:49,881
Take your time. I'm excited about it.

665
00:35:49,881 --> 00:35:50,815
Yeah, exactly.

666
00:35:50,815 --> 00:35:53,885
And we have the scripture that, you know,
a lot of scriptures mess Christians

667
00:35:53,885 --> 00:35:56,888
up, as I'm sure you know,
and I do a lot of my teaching on,

668
00:35:57,088 --> 00:35:59,657
you know, practicing misunderstandings
about scriptures

669
00:35:59,657 --> 00:36:03,161
because we just tend to take one
and we make this big dogma about it.

670
00:36:03,327 --> 00:36:05,363
You know, that
we rigidly have to apply it.

671
00:36:05,363 --> 00:36:06,898
And that whole idea about,

672
00:36:06,898 --> 00:36:10,001
be angry and sin not don't
let the sun go down in your wrath.

673
00:36:10,001 --> 00:36:10,535
I mean, I wrote

674
00:36:10,535 --> 00:36:13,704
one of my devotionals about this,
and I was just like, wait a minute.

675
00:36:14,272 --> 00:36:18,342
That doesn't mean that it
it means don't make a habit of

676
00:36:18,342 --> 00:36:20,745
just stuffing everything
and never dealing with it.

677
00:36:20,745 --> 00:36:25,716
But, I gave an example that it happened
in my relationship where my husband and I

678
00:36:25,816 --> 00:36:31,022
hit heads over something
and we were both upset, and it was.

679
00:36:31,022 --> 00:36:34,025
But the next day, after
I thought it through,

680
00:36:34,425 --> 00:36:38,696
I had a different way
of how I wanted to approach it with him,

681
00:36:39,163 --> 00:36:42,166
and I did it in a really wise way,

682
00:36:42,333 --> 00:36:45,269
and he just went, oh, okay.

683
00:36:45,269 --> 00:36:46,204
And the night before

684
00:36:46,204 --> 00:36:49,507
we would have gone to bed with a big fight
because I could tell that it was

685
00:36:49,707 --> 00:36:52,877
it was a stress point
that had come up, actually about his dad.

686
00:36:53,211 --> 00:36:57,715
And, that tended to be heated up, with
things that had to do with that situation.

687
00:36:58,015 --> 00:37:02,687
And I was just like,
no, I'm, I'm not in a place right now.

688
00:37:02,687 --> 00:37:05,389
And he also got when you go
right before he goes to bed

689
00:37:05,389 --> 00:37:07,858
and he's like,
don't bring up problems right before me.

690
00:37:07,858 --> 00:37:10,161
Yeah,
well need to be real careful about that.

691
00:37:10,161 --> 00:37:13,164
So it's like that was

692
00:37:13,497 --> 00:37:16,834
absolutely
the wrong thing to do was to say

693
00:37:17,068 --> 00:37:21,872
I have people who tell me, oh no, I,
we have to we have to talk about it.

694
00:37:21,872 --> 00:37:25,276
I always think of,,
I always think of the son as being, the

695
00:37:25,610 --> 00:37:30,448
we we are so not the ancient people
that the Bible was written to

696
00:37:30,448 --> 00:37:34,619
when Jesus was speaking to it,
because everyone functioned

697
00:37:34,619 --> 00:37:37,788
when in the light of day
they could do things, and then at night

698
00:37:37,788 --> 00:37:40,191
there was no electricity,
so you couldn't do much.

699
00:37:40,191 --> 00:37:40,925
Right?

700
00:37:40,925 --> 00:37:43,561
So the idea of doing things in the light

701
00:37:43,561 --> 00:37:47,965
means do things when you see clearly,
when the sun is up,

702
00:37:47,965 --> 00:37:51,569
when you have the wherewithal
and the clarity and the faculty

703
00:37:51,569 --> 00:37:54,572
to deal with things,
then we should deal with them.

704
00:37:54,905 --> 00:37:59,944
But as the sun goes down, meaning you're
losing bandwidth, you're losing patience,

705
00:37:59,944 --> 00:38:03,948
you're losing emotional regulation,
you're losing cognitive clarity.

706
00:38:04,181 --> 00:38:06,584
This is that. You're in the dark.

707
00:38:06,584 --> 00:38:07,818
You're already in the dark.

708
00:38:07,818 --> 00:38:10,087
It's not about what time of day it is.

709
00:38:10,087 --> 00:38:11,422
It's just

710
00:38:11,422 --> 00:38:15,226
yeah, it's not about shoving it in
because it has to be done

711
00:38:15,493 --> 00:38:17,061
now really about, and there's

712
00:38:17,061 --> 00:38:20,765
so many scriptures in the Bible
that would give you other options.

713
00:38:20,898 --> 00:38:21,198
Yeah.

714
00:38:21,198 --> 00:38:24,201
There's like, to be silent

715
00:38:24,235 --> 00:38:27,238
and to, not confront a fool

716
00:38:27,405 --> 00:38:30,308
because you'll be like a fool
and all kinds of different things.

717
00:38:30,308 --> 00:38:34,011
So it's like we have
a whole resource of things

718
00:38:34,011 --> 00:38:37,481
that can help, that help us to be wise,
but we have to be discerning.

719
00:38:37,481 --> 00:38:38,849
I always say, you can.

720
00:38:38,849 --> 00:38:42,653
You can have the wisdom of what is right

721
00:38:43,454 --> 00:38:46,891
and what is wrong
and what is good and not so good, but

722
00:38:46,891 --> 00:38:50,528
you got to have a whole lot of discernment
of how to walk that out.

723
00:38:50,728 --> 00:38:53,464
Yeah. And and that takes really.

724
00:38:53,464 --> 00:38:57,134
But first you got to know
that you don't have to apply those things

725
00:38:57,301 --> 00:39:00,304
rigidly in order to be discerning.

726
00:39:00,371 --> 00:39:03,407
So I mean, and part of what you're doing
is you're teaching couples

727
00:39:03,407 --> 00:39:07,678
to be discerning about themselves
and about the, about each other.

728
00:39:07,812 --> 00:39:10,281
That sounds like
you teach a lot of skills.

729
00:39:11,315 --> 00:39:11,515
Well,

730
00:39:11,515 --> 00:39:14,552
that and you I love working with Christian

731
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,723
and couples and believers
because they have an extra lever to pull.

732
00:39:18,723 --> 00:39:20,524
That would be Jesus Christ.

733
00:39:20,524 --> 00:39:23,527
And frankly, I struggle to work

734
00:39:23,594 --> 00:39:26,597
with couples
that don't have that framework.

735
00:39:26,697 --> 00:39:29,633
And, and one of the things
I want to say about the Lord

736
00:39:29,633 --> 00:39:33,504
being part of the equation is
he is the equation.

737
00:39:33,771 --> 00:39:37,341
I mean, we we often when we get married

738
00:39:37,341 --> 00:39:40,344
in this country,
we have this unrealistic expectation.

739
00:39:40,778 --> 00:39:45,282
The other is going to complete me,
which is totally idolatry.

740
00:39:45,516 --> 00:39:48,519
When God completes
us, God made us for him.

741
00:39:48,552 --> 00:39:51,021
We're made for unity with the Trinity
forever.

742
00:39:51,021 --> 00:39:52,823
He's our forever person,

743
00:39:52,823 --> 00:39:56,660
and he's loaned us out on earth
here to learn a few things.

744
00:39:56,660 --> 00:40:00,731
Learn about him, learn about each other,
bless some people Yes.

745
00:40:00,731 --> 00:40:01,298
Enjoy.

746
00:40:01,298 --> 00:40:05,236
Marriage has a special unity
of and special relationship.

747
00:40:05,536 --> 00:40:07,338
But too many people especially.

748
00:40:07,338 --> 00:40:11,308
And they happily ever Disneyesque
landscape of America, right

749
00:40:11,742 --> 00:40:15,646
our thinking, oh, my spouse has to be my
everything and they lose themselves

750
00:40:16,180 --> 00:40:19,750
in their identity
and they don't stand on the rock.

751
00:40:20,017 --> 00:40:20,418
Right?

752
00:40:20,418 --> 00:40:24,054
And you've got two drowning people
using each other as flotation devices.

753
00:40:24,221 --> 00:40:27,591
Well and then we add into it
the misunderstanding from Christians

754
00:40:27,858 --> 00:40:31,929
often that, well, we're going to be one,
which means we lose

755
00:40:32,463 --> 00:40:35,800
the duality,
which is absolutely not true.

756
00:40:36,100 --> 00:40:40,971
We are individuals first who are married

757
00:40:41,472 --> 00:40:45,309
and there is a special thing

758
00:40:45,309 --> 00:40:48,446
about that connection
and about that union.

759
00:40:49,213 --> 00:40:52,550
However, we are still individuals

760
00:40:52,817 --> 00:40:56,620
with individual responsibility,
individual choice, individual feelings,

761
00:40:56,620 --> 00:40:59,857
and it all has to be
taken into consideration

762
00:41:00,124 --> 00:41:04,195
and if we think that we have to be one
that is going to make your problems,

763
00:41:04,762 --> 00:41:07,164
it's impossible,
then that's an impossible.

764
00:41:07,164 --> 00:41:11,969
If that's a doomed to failure situation,
unless you're happily enmeshed

765
00:41:11,969 --> 00:41:15,673
and codependent and loving brawling
and this is how it go.

766
00:41:16,140 --> 00:41:19,710
And neurodiverse
couples, have an extra opportunity,

767
00:41:19,710 --> 00:41:23,047
I think because for them to do it
well, it does help them so much

768
00:41:23,047 --> 00:41:27,485
more to stand on the word as their source
and their identity,

769
00:41:27,685 --> 00:41:31,322
especially if you're given to shame
because there is no condemnation

770
00:41:31,322 --> 00:41:32,456
for those who are in Christ.

771
00:41:32,456 --> 00:41:36,760
Yeah, so only bringing down
the grace of God into your life

772
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:41,799
and walking in it in a way that you,
not that you can't do any wrong.

773
00:41:41,799 --> 00:41:46,203
Yeah, I can, I can, but I can admit
my wrong because there's forgiveness.

774
00:41:46,470 --> 00:41:48,005
Yeah, I'm not

775
00:41:48,005 --> 00:41:50,875
I don't have a problem with saying,
oh, boy, I really screwed that up.

776
00:41:50,875 --> 00:41:51,141
Yeah.

777
00:41:51,141 --> 00:41:51,609
I mean, God

778
00:41:51,609 --> 00:41:56,080
does not want us to walk in shame and in
some people have a shame based faith

779
00:41:56,313 --> 00:42:00,184
where they think God is the father going
you, you, you, you, you did wrong.

780
00:42:00,518 --> 00:42:03,254
And it's like you're messing up,
you're not doing good.

781
00:42:03,254 --> 00:42:06,257
And but that's the opposite. Yeah.

782
00:42:06,524 --> 00:42:07,258
So yeah.

783
00:42:07,258 --> 00:42:11,061
It’s filled with grace, what
and what you're describing, I see a lot

784
00:42:11,061 --> 00:42:14,198
in the rules based
thinking of neurodiverse people.

785
00:42:14,198 --> 00:42:17,401
The autistic mindset is
they write the rules, they learn

786
00:42:17,401 --> 00:42:20,471
about their faith based on the rules
they think they're following.

787
00:42:20,804 --> 00:42:23,140
And they
they want everybody to follow the rules.

788
00:42:23,140 --> 00:42:25,409
They're going to, of course,
their own interpretation.

789
00:42:25,409 --> 00:42:30,948
But it's not a relational understand
thing of God or it's, based on law.

790
00:42:31,215 --> 00:42:32,850
Right? It's not based on grace.

791
00:42:32,850 --> 00:42:36,787
So I might not do
the things I love doing is helping people

792
00:42:36,787 --> 00:42:40,257
that are in that mindset
cross over into Grace.

793
00:42:40,491 --> 00:42:41,225
Karla.

794
00:42:41,225 --> 00:42:44,061
It's like they're learning
about the gospel for the first time.

795
00:42:44,061 --> 00:42:46,597
Yeah. And, that's very powerful.

796
00:42:46,597 --> 00:42:50,534
And again, if you don't have the gospel
to learn about

797
00:42:50,534 --> 00:42:53,537
and you're just trying to learn
different skills and new rules,

798
00:42:54,104 --> 00:42:59,143
that's kind of window dressing and maybe
even deckchair arranging on the Titanic.

799
00:42:59,143 --> 00:43:03,614
I know that's not going to transform
a mind, a heart, a soul.

800
00:43:03,914 --> 00:43:04,448
Yeah.

801
00:43:04,448 --> 00:43:08,786
And and help them really be content
and enough and open enough to be curious

802
00:43:08,786 --> 00:43:09,887
and growth.

803
00:43:09,887 --> 00:43:14,058
So and when you talked about,
well I think I'm going to go to that next,

804
00:43:14,058 --> 00:43:18,862
but you talk about neuro teaching them
neurodiverse communication strategies.

805
00:43:19,296 --> 00:43:22,333
What does that involve
that you haven't already covered?

806
00:43:23,867 --> 00:43:26,837
I think it first of all,

807
00:43:26,837 --> 00:43:30,574
it starts with, again,
owning about how just shooting out

808
00:43:30,574 --> 00:43:34,979
your message has on either
side has just been a disaster.

809
00:43:35,079 --> 00:43:37,581
Screaming at each other in two different
languages.

810
00:43:37,581 --> 00:43:40,517
It's just a lot of screaming
and no progress. Right?

811
00:43:40,517 --> 00:43:43,887
So it's really an unlearning
of that reflex

812
00:43:43,887 --> 00:43:47,091
of I'm frustrated, I can open my mouth
and say what I want to say.

813
00:43:47,091 --> 00:43:49,460
That's like, forget that, okay.

814
00:43:49,460 --> 00:43:49,793
All right.

815
00:43:49,793 --> 00:43:53,597
And it's about taking your thoughts
captive and and working through

816
00:43:53,597 --> 00:43:57,001
what do you really feel
and what do you really want to communicate

817
00:43:57,167 --> 00:44:01,271
and why are you communicating
because it solves a problem?

818
00:44:01,271 --> 00:44:02,706
Or you want to blame somebody

819
00:44:02,706 --> 00:44:07,111
or shame them, or you feel
you have to get your need met

820
00:44:07,111 --> 00:44:10,147
and you have not considered
other ways to get that need met.

821
00:44:10,180 --> 00:44:14,184
Maybe this person isn't available
to meet that need, right?

822
00:44:14,585 --> 00:44:19,223
Maybe they have limits and you need to go
build a joy team of people in your life.

823
00:44:19,223 --> 00:44:22,159
That can love on you
and also be your people

824
00:44:22,159 --> 00:44:25,796
that you're getting
your relational needs met so that you are

825
00:44:25,796 --> 00:44:30,067
coming to your marriage with overflow,
not scarcity, right?

826
00:44:30,067 --> 00:44:32,302
Of relational experience.

827
00:44:32,302 --> 00:44:37,174
So I just think it's a, it's a different
math that we're doing, and the skills

828
00:44:37,174 --> 00:44:42,079
follow from the understanding
that you can't make any assumptions.

829
00:44:42,079 --> 00:44:45,416
We all have to be curious,
not thinking we know it

830
00:44:45,849 --> 00:44:49,620
and it, and calming it down
and affirming the good in them.

831
00:44:49,620 --> 00:44:51,722
Looking at each of them is, a goal.

832
00:44:51,722 --> 00:44:54,725
An eight ounce glass of water,
maybe only got four ounces.

833
00:44:54,892 --> 00:44:57,895
But looking at those four ounces as well,
we are half full.

834
00:44:58,429 --> 00:45:02,466
Yeah, not half empty
and having a positive mindset and not.

835
00:45:02,933 --> 00:45:04,134
And also noticing

836
00:45:05,302 --> 00:45:07,137
how we interpret things

837
00:45:07,137 --> 00:45:10,140
because if we are insecure
and shame based,

838
00:45:10,607 --> 00:45:13,644
you know, like
I interpreted the young bride

839
00:45:13,644 --> 00:45:17,448
that I was frisky in the bedroom
waiting for my husband,

840
00:45:17,915 --> 00:45:22,686
I interpreted his late night
television viewing as total rejection.

841
00:45:22,953 --> 00:45:25,756
Yeah. And humiliation. Right.

842
00:45:25,756 --> 00:45:29,760
And he interpreted it
as I need time to wind down.

843
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,663
This is my alone
time, as is my self-care time.

844
00:45:32,663 --> 00:45:35,666
He didn't know that he was autistic
and he needed that,

845
00:45:35,866 --> 00:45:37,634
but that's what he was doing.

846
00:45:37,634 --> 00:45:40,170
He was taking care of him,

847
00:45:40,170 --> 00:45:44,141
and he wasn't ready to relationally join
with me

848
00:45:44,141 --> 00:45:47,244
in a way that I would have found
satisfying really anyway.

849
00:45:47,678 --> 00:45:48,412
Right.

850
00:45:48,412 --> 00:45:51,115
And the sex part of this is a whole other.

851
00:45:51,115 --> 00:45:53,884
But that was a whole other podcast.

852
00:45:53,884 --> 00:45:55,986
We should probably talk about that
sometime, because I know

853
00:45:55,986 --> 00:46:02,392
sex addiction is just, I,
I continually hear that couples,

854
00:46:02,993 --> 00:46:06,864
when women talk to me about their husbands
that have ASD, that

855
00:46:06,864 --> 00:46:12,503
they also have sex addiction
and it just or, and or ADHD.

856
00:46:12,803 --> 00:46:15,973
So it tends oh yeah, the the ADHD

857
00:46:15,973 --> 00:46:19,343
brain and more more the ADHD brain.

858
00:46:19,443 --> 00:46:23,614
But then the autistic brain is
is serotonin short?

859
00:46:24,014 --> 00:46:24,248
Yeah.

860
00:46:24,248 --> 00:46:29,720
And there is a serotonin seeking
of the hit, dopamine hit, a to addiction.

861
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:32,156
Yeah. It's dope. Dopamine short to.

862
00:46:32,156 --> 00:46:35,292
And so there's and because there's a lack

863
00:46:35,292 --> 00:46:38,295
of executive
functioning that and reasoning ability

864
00:46:38,295 --> 00:46:43,567
they can be very impulsive ADHD people
and just without even thinking go for it.

865
00:46:43,567 --> 00:46:46,537
And they and they form habits in,

866
00:46:46,804 --> 00:46:49,807
in the amygdala hippocampus
they're very primal habits.

867
00:46:49,807 --> 00:46:52,309
So sex is a very primal thing.

868
00:46:52,309 --> 00:46:55,679
And when you start bonding
with sexual experiences

869
00:46:55,679 --> 00:47:01,018
at age 12 or so and you're doing porn,
you are now bonding

870
00:47:01,018 --> 00:47:06,356
with the idea of women in an object way,
not in a relational way.

871
00:47:06,356 --> 00:47:11,829
But this is a self-serving pursuit
that plays right into some of the

872
00:47:11,829 --> 00:47:17,367
preferences or the natural inclinations
of a neurodivergent mind.

873
00:47:17,868 --> 00:47:18,335
Right?

874
00:47:18,335 --> 00:47:20,370
But anybody can be addicted.

875
00:47:20,370 --> 00:47:22,372
Anybody can be addicted to anything.

876
00:47:22,372 --> 00:47:27,711
So I don't and I think porn is an epidemic
in our culture of men in general.

877
00:47:27,744 --> 00:47:32,282
It is, you know, it's really what's wrong
with American culture is porn.

878
00:47:32,683 --> 00:47:34,852
But it's the bottom line in my book.

879
00:47:34,852 --> 00:47:35,185
Yeah.

880
00:47:35,185 --> 00:47:38,222
So, and it's unmasked
and nobody talks about it.

881
00:47:38,222 --> 00:47:41,491
And technology is just enable
making it worse.

882
00:47:41,491 --> 00:47:41,959
Yeah.

883
00:47:41,959 --> 00:47:45,495
You can be under in younger
because, if they're even kid

884
00:47:45,796 --> 00:47:50,300
they and I know my daughter went dating
had trouble

885
00:47:50,300 --> 00:47:54,071
finding men that she date them
and think they were really nice.

886
00:47:54,071 --> 00:47:56,206
And almost every single one of them
when they got

887
00:47:56,206 --> 00:47:58,041
she got closer, would have to admit,

888
00:47:58,041 --> 00:48:01,044
hey, I watch porn and it's
kind of an addiction.

889
00:48:01,144 --> 00:48:04,781
And I was like, oh my gosh, like,
this is a really this is a big thing.

890
00:48:04,781 --> 00:48:06,250
This is not a minor thing.

891
00:48:06,250 --> 00:48:08,085
This really affects the relationship.

892
00:48:08,085 --> 00:48:11,922
Along those lines, I will say that,
if anyone wants to look up the

893
00:48:11,922 --> 00:48:15,826
I believe it was the August podcast series
that Doctor Stephanie

894
00:48:15,826 --> 00:48:18,228
Holmes and Dan did with the neurodiverse
Christian couples.

895
00:48:18,228 --> 00:48:21,999
They had four amazing segments, all about

896
00:48:22,399 --> 00:48:26,503
porn and, men speaking about it, women
speaking about it.

897
00:48:26,503 --> 00:48:31,508
In very, very helpful ways
with the slant towards neurodivergent.

898
00:48:31,508 --> 00:48:35,212
Andrew Bauman was on
there is amazing Christian counseling.

899
00:48:35,212 --> 00:48:38,916
I'll go ahead and link to those
in the notes since you brought them up.

900
00:48:38,916 --> 00:48:39,549
I look for them.

901
00:48:39,549 --> 00:48:41,985
If I have trouble finding them
I’ll as you to give me the links.

902
00:48:41,985 --> 00:48:44,154
But, I should be able to find them.

903
00:48:44,154 --> 00:48:45,289
That way people can look at.

904
00:48:45,289 --> 00:48:47,324
Because that's. Yeah, that comes up.

905
00:48:47,324 --> 00:48:48,825
Yeah, that's solid gold stuff.

906
00:48:48,825 --> 00:48:52,663
And and I do, I ask both men and the women

907
00:48:52,763 --> 00:48:55,766
because it,
it might be the behavior of one.

908
00:48:55,899 --> 00:48:59,336
But there again needs to be
an understanding on the,

909
00:48:59,336 --> 00:49:04,107
on the partner's part of
how did this addiction evolve.

910
00:49:04,541 --> 00:49:07,544
It's not just a betrayal of her. Right.

911
00:49:07,644 --> 00:49:11,515
that's if we would personalize and feel
victimized and wounded and love a lot.

912
00:49:12,316 --> 00:49:15,385
But it is a very, intrinsic.

913
00:49:15,385 --> 00:49:19,957
It's just so, deeply intertwined
and with so many issues

914
00:49:19,957 --> 00:49:22,960
that the neurodivergent person is having

915
00:49:23,093 --> 00:49:25,796
and it is possible for them to own

916
00:49:25,796 --> 00:49:29,933
it, repent of it,
go cold turkey, start feeling better

917
00:49:29,933 --> 00:49:32,936
because it turns out porn sucks
the life out of men.

918
00:49:33,303 --> 00:49:34,738
It sucks all the energy.

919
00:49:34,738 --> 00:49:38,141
I'll send you
a it's called the Great Porn Experiment.

920
00:49:38,141 --> 00:49:41,511
It was a Ted talk, and,
this dude, he's now passed.

921
00:49:41,511 --> 00:49:44,881
He was a real sort of dictionary
and forerunner

922
00:49:44,881 --> 00:49:46,750
of the problem of porn years ago.

923
00:49:46,750 --> 00:49:48,585
I think I might have seen that.

924
00:49:48,585 --> 00:49:50,320
You might have. It's been around.

925
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,457
And he talks about how debilitating it is.

926
00:49:53,991 --> 00:49:56,593
It causes erectile dysfunction.

927
00:49:56,593 --> 00:49:59,062
Viagra was one of the top
selling drugs in the country.

928
00:49:59,062 --> 00:50:00,464
What a why.

929
00:50:00,464 --> 00:50:01,665
Yeah, right.

930
00:50:01,665 --> 00:50:04,668
So, yeah. I think I did see that.

931
00:50:04,835 --> 00:50:10,340
So now you have a couple other roadmaps,
that I find interesting.

932
00:50:10,340 --> 00:50:11,475
One is we're not going to,

933
00:50:11,475 --> 00:50:13,910
like, go into them,
but I want just to kind of like,

934
00:50:13,910 --> 00:50:16,013
look at the
why do you have the different ones?

935
00:50:16,013 --> 00:50:19,616
Do you have a roadmap to joy
that you say is for individuals?

936
00:50:19,816 --> 00:50:21,284
Yeah. Who's that for?

937
00:50:22,319 --> 00:50:23,920
That is mostly

938
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:28,058
people who are realizing
their partner is M.I.A.

939
00:50:28,058 --> 00:50:30,027
In terms of working with them,

940
00:50:30,027 --> 00:50:33,463
and they may not be sure
that the relationship's going to last.

941
00:50:33,797 --> 00:50:37,734
So they have to now do the work
they need to do to be healthy,

942
00:50:38,068 --> 00:50:41,071
and to heal
and to find joy in their life.

943
00:50:41,405 --> 00:50:42,172
Okay.

944
00:50:42,172 --> 00:50:45,976
And then many people have young
children or children.

945
00:50:45,976 --> 00:50:47,177
They don't want to leave the marriage

946
00:50:47,177 --> 00:50:50,213
or there's a financial situation
that they can't leave the marriage.

947
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:55,752
So how do you get in your own lane and
build your joy team and stay well enough?

948
00:50:56,153 --> 00:50:58,355
How not to allow more abuse?

949
00:50:58,355 --> 00:51:02,092
How not to have that be a fool and argue
with a fool according to his folly?

950
00:51:02,426 --> 00:51:04,661
How to set expectations.

951
00:51:04,661 --> 00:51:06,997
How to grieve your losses?

952
00:51:06,997 --> 00:51:09,332
Yes, cry the tears you need to.

953
00:51:09,332 --> 00:51:11,535
Dealing with reality, right?

954
00:51:11,535 --> 00:51:13,170
Because I love that Lysa

955
00:51:13,170 --> 00:51:16,973
Terkeurst new book that she came out
with the good boundaries and goodbyes

956
00:51:17,240 --> 00:51:20,377
and throughout that her
her counselor for years was telling her.

957
00:51:20,377 --> 00:51:25,015
Lisa, mental health is a commitment
to reality at all costs.

958
00:51:25,782 --> 00:51:28,885
And it was only when she finally dealt
with the problem

959
00:51:28,885 --> 00:51:32,656
of who her spouse had been after 30 years
that she left her marriage.

960
00:51:32,823 --> 00:51:34,891
Yeah. She had to deal with the reality.

961
00:51:34,891 --> 00:51:37,561
Right. So learning how not to be afraid.

962
00:51:37,561 --> 00:51:40,430
Yeah. To know how to swim,
not learning it.

963
00:51:40,430 --> 00:51:43,567
You know what's something
I realized about swimming, Karla?

964
00:51:43,967 --> 00:51:47,070
I remember when I was in third grade,
I did not know how to swim.

965
00:51:47,737 --> 00:51:48,772
I knew how to fake that.

966
00:51:48,772 --> 00:51:51,541
I knew how to swim,
but I didn't know how to swim.

967
00:51:51,541 --> 00:51:56,780
And I remember the day I learned
that I could put my face in the water,

968
00:51:56,780 --> 00:52:01,451
point my arms forward, and push off
and glide on the surface and kick.

969
00:52:02,185 --> 00:52:05,188
And then I learned to paddle,
and I learned to do the doggy paddle.

970
00:52:05,188 --> 00:52:06,890
And I learned to swim.

971
00:52:06,890 --> 00:52:10,160
And do you know that
when somebody learns to swim,

972
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,496
they can never unlearn that, right?

973
00:52:13,663 --> 00:52:14,364
Yeah.

974
00:52:14,364 --> 00:52:15,232
They can't unlearn.

975
00:52:15,232 --> 00:52:16,800
It's like when you ride a bicycle,

976
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,035
you learn the balance
and you learn what it takes.

977
00:52:19,035 --> 00:52:23,907
And if you're dealing with all the same,
variables, you can ride a bicycle.

978
00:52:24,341 --> 00:52:26,076
So that's what I ask.

979
00:52:26,076 --> 00:52:28,478
The balance and the swimming metaphor.

980
00:52:28,478 --> 00:52:30,914
It's like once you learn
that you're going to be okay.

981
00:52:30,914 --> 00:52:32,415
And that's the same thing that I teach

982
00:52:32,415 --> 00:52:36,319
when I teach my ten lifesaving principles
to women in difficult marriages

983
00:52:36,319 --> 00:52:40,223
and to anyone in a difficult relationship,

984
00:52:40,223 --> 00:52:43,827
child, grandparent, sibling, exspouse,

985
00:52:44,161 --> 00:52:49,166
we can learn skills to not react in ways
that make it worse for us.

986
00:52:49,432 --> 00:52:51,268
We can learn to take care of ourself.

987
00:52:51,268 --> 00:52:52,335
We can learn to detach.

988
00:52:52,335 --> 00:52:56,473
And I do all those things to reach
so many women I send.

989
00:52:56,506 --> 00:53:00,844
I tell them all about your book, yeah,
I love your book,

990
00:53:00,844 --> 00:53:03,947
I do, I do,
and the detach in love chapter is.

991
00:53:04,648 --> 00:53:05,715
It's fabulous.

992
00:53:05,715 --> 00:53:08,185
I mean, that's one of the top ones
they have to embrace.

993
00:53:08,185 --> 00:53:12,389
And, you know,
I have a 365 day devotional now I do

994
00:53:12,389 --> 00:53:16,826
I haven't myself gone into it,
but it's fabulously good.

995
00:53:16,826 --> 00:53:19,930
It's really it's a way of
just giving little tidbits of,

996
00:53:20,096 --> 00:53:24,367
of tips and truth that you can grasp on
and apply for that day.

997
00:53:24,367 --> 00:53:27,837
And like you talking about it,
then everything starts to become habit.

998
00:53:27,837 --> 00:53:31,875
So and the last one that you have
is a roadmap to discernment.

999
00:53:31,875 --> 00:53:34,244
So tell us what that's about.

1000
00:53:34,244 --> 00:53:37,247
Well discernment is do
we want to be married?

1001
00:53:37,881 --> 00:53:40,217
We are married.
Do we want to stay married?

1002
00:53:40,217 --> 00:53:45,021
Do we want to separate
what needs to happen and this is a lot

1003
00:53:45,055 --> 00:53:49,125
where some couples are after
maybe even trying

1004
00:53:49,159 --> 00:53:54,264
to do neurodiverse coaching or other
ways of healing, and they still can't get

1005
00:53:54,431 --> 00:53:57,834
where they want to get to,
but they respect each other enough

1006
00:53:58,301 --> 00:54:01,404
and they want to have a healthy
or good divorce

1007
00:54:01,404 --> 00:54:05,408
or a sober divorce where
they're not just reacting and, at war.

1008
00:54:05,809 --> 00:54:10,680
And they want to thoughtfully
take it step by step and,

1009
00:54:10,947 --> 00:54:13,917
and really evaluate
whether or not that's that

1010
00:54:13,917 --> 00:54:17,520
is the best option,
because there are other people involved.

1011
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,522
There's family members, there's kids,

1012
00:54:19,522 --> 00:54:23,126
there's lifelong friends,
there's finances that are intertwined.

1013
00:54:23,660 --> 00:54:24,027
All right.

1014
00:54:24,027 --> 00:54:28,965
There's legal considerations,
there's practical considerations.

1015
00:54:28,965 --> 00:54:29,966
And who's going to do what

1016
00:54:29,966 --> 00:54:34,104
with the kids of where and family houses
and vacations and timeshares?

1017
00:54:34,371 --> 00:54:39,009
There's so much to consider
that is worthy of, if a couple

1018
00:54:39,009 --> 00:54:43,880
and I do believe there are some marriages
that shouldn't continue, I do.

1019
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,683
A marriage for marriage
sake is not God honoring.

1020
00:54:46,683 --> 00:54:48,985
Oh no, I get that wrong too.

1021
00:54:48,985 --> 00:54:51,821
Yeah, and and God does not hate divorce.

1022
00:54:51,821 --> 00:54:54,024
I mean, Gretchen Baskerville has written
a whole book

1023
00:54:54,024 --> 00:54:57,527
about the life saving divorce,
and she says that I mistranslated,

1024
00:54:58,061 --> 00:55:00,664
Malachi 2 or Malachi 2:16.

1025
00:55:00,664 --> 00:55:02,732
Yeah, it's it's not that God
hates divorce.

1026
00:55:02,732 --> 00:55:07,504
It's God hates the violence
that is done in the marriage. Yes.

1027
00:55:07,637 --> 00:55:10,106
And in that context,
he was talking about the men

1028
00:55:10,106 --> 00:55:13,743
and especially the men that were leaving
and abandoning their wives

1029
00:55:14,210 --> 00:55:18,014
to nothing but potentially prostitution
or going home.

1030
00:55:18,248 --> 00:55:18,581
Right.

1031
00:55:18,581 --> 00:55:21,584
Went off with another younger woman
that they wanted to be with,

1032
00:55:21,685 --> 00:55:26,489
and that was treating them very violently
and very disrespectfully.

1033
00:55:26,756 --> 00:55:28,191
And God hated that.

1034
00:55:28,191 --> 00:55:30,393
And He told them to stop doing that.

1035
00:55:30,393 --> 00:55:35,465
And Moses gave them the right to the
to get a certificate of divorce

1036
00:55:35,699 --> 00:55:38,501
so that women could go and marry, re marry
so that

1037
00:55:38,501 --> 00:55:39,703
they could take care of themselves.

1038
00:55:39,703 --> 00:55:41,805
So we get it so wrong.

1039
00:55:41,805 --> 00:55:46,910
And I tell, put ourselves into these bonds
and these this,

1040
00:55:46,910 --> 00:55:51,314
this toxic, rigid system
that hurts us and hurts our children.

1041
00:55:51,314 --> 00:55:55,251
So, you you're going to get sometimes
you have both people come in right

1042
00:55:55,318 --> 00:55:58,021
to talk about that.
Sometimes it's only one.

1043
00:55:58,021 --> 00:56:01,424
And I've even known couples
with, with, neurodiverse

1044
00:56:01,691 --> 00:56:04,661
spouse that they separate.

1045
00:56:04,661 --> 00:56:07,030
They live separately,
but they stay married.

1046
00:56:07,030 --> 00:56:08,932
Yeah. Oh, that's not uncommon.

1047
00:56:08,932 --> 00:56:10,033
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1048
00:56:10,033 --> 00:56:15,772
And so it's a, it's a, it's an option
when living together is too overwhelming.

1049
00:56:16,005 --> 00:56:16,339
Yeah.

1050
00:56:16,339 --> 00:56:20,009
For the person with ASD
and they can't handle

1051
00:56:20,009 --> 00:56:23,513
the noise of children
and all busyness and all that.

1052
00:56:23,513 --> 00:56:26,850
But this has kept the family
from having to split up.

1053
00:56:27,183 --> 00:56:31,087
I think that's that's very,
a very good option to consider

1054
00:56:31,421 --> 00:56:34,224
because,
none of us can have all the bluebirds

1055
00:56:34,224 --> 00:56:36,793
singing and all the rainbow colors
and happily ever up.

1056
00:56:36,793 --> 00:56:38,728
That's, that's, a fantasy.

1057
00:56:38,728 --> 00:56:43,566
So some of us only get a sliver
of the rainbow, but let's optimize that.

1058
00:56:43,833 --> 00:56:45,101
Let's make that good.

1059
00:56:45,101 --> 00:56:49,005
And that might not be our whole lives
and all our week,

1060
00:56:49,005 --> 00:56:53,009
seven days a week, 24 hours a day,
it might be a different variation

1061
00:56:53,009 --> 00:56:55,779
on what the partnership looks like.

1062
00:56:55,779 --> 00:56:57,414
Yeah. An absolutely.

1063
00:56:57,414 --> 00:57:01,251
And as long as it's edifying to life,
God honoring

1064
00:57:01,251 --> 00:57:05,155
and a blessing to more than not,
I think that's a godly marriage.

1065
00:57:05,288 --> 00:57:06,656
Yeah, absolutely.

1066
00:57:06,656 --> 00:57:08,491
And there are times
when it just doesn't work.

1067
00:57:08,491 --> 00:57:13,596
And we have to be willing to allow people
not to tell them that they should

1068
00:57:13,596 --> 00:57:18,201
or shouldn't divorce,
but to allow them to come

1069
00:57:18,201 --> 00:57:22,872
to their own conviction and awareness
as far as what's healthy.

1070
00:57:22,872 --> 00:57:28,111
And Christians do not error especially
Christians in difficult relationships,

1071
00:57:28,478 --> 00:57:31,247
in any type of difficult marriage,

1072
00:57:31,247 --> 00:57:35,185
they do not error on divorcing too much.

1073
00:57:35,485 --> 00:57:38,788
Yeah, they on divorcing too little.

1074
00:57:38,922 --> 00:57:41,157
Yeah, separating, too little.

1075
00:57:41,157 --> 00:57:44,127
So we are not here having to say
oh no, no,

1076
00:57:44,127 --> 00:57:48,131
you can't walk out on your marriage
because you don't like the same things

1077
00:57:48,131 --> 00:57:49,132
as your spouse or.

1078
00:57:49,132 --> 00:57:51,801
Yeah, you know, you’re tired now or now.

1079
00:57:51,801 --> 00:57:52,469
It's a struggle.

1080
00:57:52,469 --> 00:57:56,105
And it was easy before you fallen out
of, the, right.

1081
00:57:56,506 --> 00:57:59,042
Kind of oxytocin has worn off.

1082
00:57:59,042 --> 00:58:01,377
Time for you to do that.

1083
00:58:01,377 --> 00:58:03,012
So. Yeah, absolutely.

1084
00:58:03,012 --> 00:58:06,950
Well, how can listeners
find out more about you and contact you?

1085
00:58:07,617 --> 00:58:11,521
So, I have a website and,
maybe you can also offer a link

1086
00:58:11,521 --> 00:58:16,059
to that in the show notes or even will
I offer it at this time?

1087
00:58:16,626 --> 00:58:20,663
25 minute mini for a very low booking fee.

1088
00:58:20,964 --> 00:58:25,568
A mini appointment where it's about
me learning about them, helping

1089
00:58:25,568 --> 00:58:30,273
them understand me and how I approach
this, what the pricing is of what I offer.

1090
00:58:30,273 --> 00:58:32,442
I also offer support groups.

1091
00:58:32,442 --> 00:58:36,746
I offer classes usually,
and I have a lot of women internationally

1092
00:58:36,746 --> 00:58:40,650
that take my classes because I offer them
my morning on the West Coast time.

1093
00:58:40,650 --> 00:58:45,288
So it's still 6 or 7:00 in, Dubai
or wherever they are at.

1094
00:58:45,655 --> 00:58:49,826
I offer a Thursday night drop in group
where it is is an ongoing community,

1095
00:58:49,826 --> 00:58:53,596
a support group membership
for neurotypical Christian women, married

1096
00:58:53,696 --> 00:58:58,234
or in relationship with maybe
all kinds of people that are neurodiverse.

1097
00:58:58,535 --> 00:59:00,370
And, that's all on my website.

1098
00:59:00,370 --> 00:59:03,840
So that is the best place to
to get a big picture.

1099
00:59:03,973 --> 00:59:05,441
Yeah. Go to the website. Yeah.

1100
00:59:05,441 --> 00:59:07,477
And there's also other podcasts and videos

1101
00:59:07,477 --> 00:59:09,679
I've done
that are all listed on my media page.

1102
00:59:09,679 --> 00:59:11,214
So yeah. Yeah.

1103
00:59:11,214 --> 00:59:15,552
So when and then I will be linking
put down the, podcasts

1104
00:59:15,552 --> 00:59:18,555
that were on porn,
the four of those with Stephanie and Dan.

1105
00:59:18,655 --> 00:59:22,225
So I'll also be linking their information.

1106
00:59:22,225 --> 00:59:24,694
They have also a ton of podcasts
out there.

1107
00:59:24,694 --> 00:59:29,699
So for people listening that need a place
to go to get, especially Christians,

1108
00:59:29,899 --> 00:59:33,102
that you have a place
to go to get reliable content

1109
00:59:33,102 --> 00:59:36,105
from people
that know what they're talking about.

1110
00:59:36,105 --> 00:59:40,009
With this issue,
you and Stephanie and Dan, what

1111
00:59:40,109 --> 00:59:41,711
what's the actual name of theirs?

1112
00:59:41,711 --> 00:59:45,648
It's the it's called the Neurodiverse
Christian Couples Podcast.

1113
00:59:45,648 --> 00:59:50,320
And then the monthly segment Stephanie
and I do the second Monday of every month

1114
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:54,624
is the Neurodiverse Christian Couples
Coaches Corner.

1115
00:59:54,891 --> 00:59:58,161
I said, Stephanie, could you not have
more words in that title?

1116
00:59:59,462 --> 00:59:59,896
Coaches.

1117
00:59:59,896 --> 01:00:02,532
Words. Yeah, yeah. Coaches’ Corner.

1118
01:00:02,532 --> 01:00:02,999
Yeah.

1119
01:00:02,999 --> 01:00:06,202
And, it's it's all about
we talked to different

1120
01:00:06,202 --> 01:00:08,037
people,
different coaches, different people

1121
01:00:08,037 --> 01:00:11,941
that are trying to help couples
in some way in this arena.

1122
01:00:12,241 --> 01:00:12,775
Yeah. Perfect.

1123
01:00:12,775 --> 01:00:15,445
So people are desperate for resources.

1124
01:00:15,445 --> 01:00:16,546
So this will give them a lot.

1125
01:00:16,546 --> 01:00:17,981
So thank you.

1126
01:00:17,981 --> 01:00:18,781
So much.

1127
01:00:18,781 --> 01:00:21,684
And you last minute
adjusted your time for me.

1128
01:00:21,684 --> 01:00:25,321
So I appreciate your flexibility
and your wealth of knowledge.

1129
01:00:25,321 --> 01:00:26,823
And you look beautiful.

1130
01:00:26,823 --> 01:00:29,792
Absolutely beautiful. Oh my gosh you.

1131
01:00:29,993 --> 01:00:31,761
God’s good.

1132
01:00:31,761 --> 01:00:33,997
What can I say. Yeah.

1133
01:00:33,997 --> 01:00:35,131
So thank you again.

1134
01:00:35,131 --> 01:00:36,032
And for those of you

1135
01:00:36,032 --> 01:00:39,902
listening or watching, thank you very much
for giving us your time.

1136
01:00:40,269 --> 01:00:42,405
And I pray that you would

1137
01:00:42,405 --> 01:00:46,275
have found this way, helpful
to put into your own life and marriage.

1138
01:00:46,576 --> 01:00:51,247
Also, please pass this on to anyone
that you know that would benefit from it.

1139
01:00:51,247 --> 01:00:51,781
It's this.

1140
01:00:51,781 --> 01:00:52,949
I would say it's a gift.

1141
01:00:52,949 --> 01:00:54,951
You can give with just a click.

1142
01:00:54,951 --> 01:00:59,622
This just by sending it, sharing it
on a text or sharing it in an email.

1143
01:00:59,922 --> 01:01:02,458
And that way you're giving that,
you're giving that person

1144
01:01:02,458 --> 01:01:05,128
also hope
I hear a lot of hope in your voice.

1145
01:01:05,128 --> 01:01:06,262
Amen.

1146
01:01:06,262 --> 01:01:09,265
Thank you for listening
to Change My Relationship.

1147
01:01:09,365 --> 01:01:13,236
We hope you will subscribe to these
podcasts and share them with your friends.

1148
01:01:13,336 --> 01:01:15,571
Karla would love to hear from you.

1149
01:01:15,571 --> 01:01:19,409
She welcomes ideas for a future podcast,
as well as your feedback

1150
01:01:19,609 --> 01:01:22,779
on how the podcasts have helped your life
and relationships.

1151
01:01:23,346 --> 01:01:24,580
You can email her at.

1152
01:01:24,580 --> 01:01:27,150
karla@changemyrelationship.com

1153
01:01:28,351 --> 01:01:31,387
For more information
on Change My Relationship and Karla

1154
01:01:31,387 --> 01:01:36,426
Downing's ministry, including her books,
studies, devotionals, podcasts

1155
01:01:36,693 --> 01:01:41,264
and YouTube videos
visit changemyrelationship.com.