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Dale forland here, and welcome to Back to Black Radio.
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Today we have a flashback episode.
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Welcome back to the first season of Fact to Black Radio with Chris Ellison.
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He's gonna lead us an interview with Brun and Dirksen.
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In the recent passing of Brun and Dirksen, we thought this was gonna be a special opportunity for you to hear what he has to say.
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Right here on Back to Back Radio.
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And now over to Chris Ellison.
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So have you ever been in church and sung the songs over the years?
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Songs such as Refiner's Fire, Come Now Is the Time to Worship, Hope of the Nations, and many more, like I have in church, not really knowing where it came from.
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On the program today, we have Brian Derrickson, and he's going to talk to us about not only his past and where he's come from, but the incredible work that he's doing with artists in Canada to help grow the Canadian Christian music industry and create a sense of uh of mentorship and community among uh this creative group and and try to provide uh mentorship in terms of how to engage with the the industry out there.
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And it can be a challenge.
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And so, Brian, thank you for just joining us today.
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Glad to be with you.
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Well, we want to talk about a variety of things.
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We want to talk a little bit about the past and and the present and the future and what you're doing out west.
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Um can you share with us your journey the uh briefly into music and how you discovered your passion for Christian music?
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You know, um, you know, for me, music was was always one of the two key components of really that spiritual spark in me.
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It was it was nature, it was, you know, trees and the natural world, and it was the musical world that sparked it.
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And um, I just have this, I have this vivid memory of you know being in 10th grade, I was 15 years old and going to my first Christian concert, which happened to be What was that?
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That was Servant, Petra and the Robert Case Band in Seattle, Washington.
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But what was crazy about it was my dad who who really was trying to build bridges uh to me and to my friends, you know, rock and roll wouldn't have been his musical mother tongue, you know.
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He he grew up singing in quartets.
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He he he liked, I mean, he liked all kinds of music as long as it was good music, but it when he thought about expressing faith in music, he didn't really think of rock and roll.
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But anyway, he he he he knew that I was I was being pulled by some of this music, and so he offered to take me and a whole group of our friends and drive us two and a half hours south from where we were living and still live in Abbotsford, British Columbia, down to Seattle to this concert.
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And it was there was multiple things that went on in that concert because you have it was good quality music, it was good quality sound and lighting, and there was a whole community, you know, whatever, a thousand people there.
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So you realized, oh, you know, it's not just a handful of us, there's other people out there that are being stirred by this kind of music.
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And I think that's that was that a moment when a seed was planted in my heart.
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Of course, I didn't think I had, I wasn't, I had no idea if I had what it takes creatively or whatever to create my own music at that point.
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I was just jamming in my bedroom with a guitar, you know.
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Uh, but I think I think that event in um I think that would have been the summer of 1981 would have would have started the journey for me.
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And it took me, you know, fast forward then about like another eight, nine years after that point to my first kind of like recorded, published, released song.
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And um, you know, and that and and we're kind of marking this year, 35 years that I've been doing this kind of like in an almost full-time way.
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And I almost shake my head when I think about 35 years.
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Where on heck did 35 years go?
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Because you feel the same inside, and then you go to do something maybe that you used to do, and you go, and your body says, Oh, but you're not quite the same, you're almost the same, but you're the spirit is willing, but the flesh is getting weaker, just a bit weaker, not all weak, but just a little bit.
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Yeah, no, I I um it's been quite a ride, it's been a good ride.
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You know, a lot of your uh your songs have a blend of worship and personal reflection.
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How do you find inspiration for your lyrics and and your music?
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I mean, maybe one way I'd say is that I, you know, I just kind of like live life, I, you know, in all the layers of life, right?
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You know, I I live in the home where I was raised.
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So I was four years old when when my parents bought this little farmhouse on five acres, which I'm talking to you from now.
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So this has been my home for over 50 years.
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So I live, you know, I have I have a couple of special needs sons who require a lot of support.
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I do various things, but as I as I go through all of the journey of life, I I keep waiting for those aha moments.
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I call them, you know, the gift of a seed, of a song seed, where you're just doing whatever.
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And sometimes you're you could be reading scripture, you could be going for a walk, and this boop, this, this thought, this aha moment comes and I go, I want to sing that.
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You know, that's the seed of a song.
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But I don't, it's like I don't try and pre-condition, you know, is is what I'm gonna write next gonna be a worship song, or is it gonna be a response to issues of the day?
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Or, you know, I'm probably most known for you know songs that are sung in churches and in worship services, but you know, I've written songs for musicals.
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I wrote, I write songs of tribute for people after they've passed to sing at memorial services.
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I I've written a whole bunch of like love songs about long love that I'm I'm recording in the process of recording, um, protest songs about what's happening and justice in the world.
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You know, I think I think all of us as songwriters, you know, I think we're all waiting for the seeds of inspiration.
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And the thing is, Chris, if if you and I were given the exact same seed, the interesting thing is we would write two distinctly different songs, but you could maybe recognize the seed is the same.
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Like maybe it's like a lyrical phrase, or maybe it's a melodic hook.
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Um I think what we do with the creative seeds in our lives is it is a is a reflection and a demonstration of who we are.
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Um, the things we love, the things that move us.
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Um you know, some are more, you know, um melancholy, some are more extroverted, some are more, you know, like in all the diversity of emotions and personalities.
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So I think we take in the seeds of inspiration and then we we find a way to express it.
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And you know, songs are a very unique art form, too, right?
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Because the the the development of song form and structure over the last several hundred years has got us to a point that maybe, you know, you you mentioned, you know, Petra's been on the road for 50 years, you know, probably now the modern song structure of how we express songs has probably been around for a little bit more than 50 years, but not much.
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But you can really see the if you study song structure, and I and I have as a songwriting instructor, it's quite interesting what happened in the 1800s and the early 1900s to get to this place where then you and I take a seed of inspiration and we go, I want to sing this, and we think about verses and choruses, or we think about an AABA form, or we think about the 12-bar blues, or we think about, you know what I mean?
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Like, so we have these containers that we've gotten used to communicating to each other with, but what's really important is not the container, it's the content, right?
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It's what's in the container.
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And you know, most of us songwriters, we don't create, we don't invent new containers.
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What we do is we take existing containers and we find fresh ways to fill them with the content of our songs, and of course, without the inspiration, without that spark, we don't get rolling.
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Yeah, but without our personalities, what gets expressed in the end would all sound the same.
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So we need to mark what it is we're expressing.
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Like in a song like Come Now's Time to Worship, one of my more well-known songs, I have a line in there, Come just as you are.
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And that just as you are was there because I was in a very low, disorienting season of my life after finding out our son had fragile X syndrome and would require care for the rest of his life.
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We had tried to launch a musical where I'd written all the songs, and the album had succeeded, Father's House, which is coming up to its 30th anniversary, crazy.
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And uh, but the live stage show that we poured this immense amount of energy in a couple of years and probably over a million dollars of investment failed.
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And so I was in a very disoriented season.
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So, you know, it's also that thing where we have our personality when the seed of inspiration comes, but we also have what we're our lived experience is in that season, and that also influences the content of the song.
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And so, what inspires us to write our music, and it would be interesting.
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I've always thought it would be interesting to get a number of artists uh write and record a song that maybe we're aware of, but to see how it is done in a different and unique way.
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I think that would be interesting.
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I don't know how that would happen, but but the what inspires you to write and you put it on paper.
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And what's interesting is your music has uh it's been around used widely in churches, not only around Canada, North America, but the world.
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So, how does it feel?
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You wrote these some of these songs because of what you were inspired to write, a message you wanted to send out there.
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But what's happened is a lot of people have been blessed and become inspired.
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So, what does it feel like for you as an artist to not only do what you do, you're inspired, you write, you say something, but that it's received on such a large scale and that you've impacted people's lives.
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How does that feel?
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Well, it's encouraging, but the thing is, in in the day-to-day, I I'm not aware of that larger influence at all because I'm just living my life here in my home and and looking after my son when he gets up and he needs care and he needs to be prepared for his day program and he doesn't speak.
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And so he's trying to he's trying to communicate without words what he needs.
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And and so, in a sense, in the in the everydayness of my life, I'm not thinking about anything grand.
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I'm not thinking, oh, you know, probably millions of people, so to speak, have sung these songs over the last 30 years.
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Because obviously it's in it's encouraging when you get a note, you know, um, and a note of encouragement arrives from somewhere on the other side of the planet, you know, from Denmark or Slovakia or these places, I get some of these notes and just saying, hey, thank you for writing Faithful One, because I was in this really rough season and I lost my words and I didn't know what to say, and there was your song and it gave me voice.
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Um, that's a miracle.
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I mean, it's a miracle, A, that my song, written in my bedroom when I was 23 years old, overwhelmed by being a first-time father and thankful for it, and also in kind of trepidation.
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Oh man, I'm gonna blow it.
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I know I'm gonna let my daughter down.
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God, I need you to be faithful one, so unchanging.
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You know, like so is my prayer, right?
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So the miracle of that finds its way from my bedroom to somebody in the mountains of Slovakia, and then they years later write to me and say, Thank you for writing this song because I was going through X and Y, and I needed something, and your song was there to say, you know, I think I think you know, songs become traveling or journeying companions to people if if we speak for them.
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You know, I think sometimes as Christian musicians, we think a lot about message and we want to sing to people this message, but I think the best songs don't speak to people, they speak for people.
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In other words, people go, Oh, I wanted to say that, right?
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I want it, I needed, and especially, of course, when you think of worship kind of songs that people, individuals, and congregations sing.
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So, yeah, you're talking about like the multiplication of inspiration.
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I think that's one of the reasons why we need to encourage as many artists and creative people as we can to create the the songs that are uniquely theirs to write and create.
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Because when they do that, it it multiplies inspiration because they take the inspiration that they've been given, they write a song, which then in turn inspires somebody else, maybe not as a songwriter, but maybe as a teacher, or maybe as somebody who's just serving the elderly or or working with the homeless, or whatever it is they're doing with their life, and the song comes along and helps give them voice, it inspires them to keep going.
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I think we want to make music that matters, that that that has some that has meaning to it, that that that can become uh a companion for somebody else, an encouraging companion.
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You know, it's like there's so much content being created in our world, so many, and so much of it's mindless, kind of like entertainment, like it's it's just meant to amuse for the moment.
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And I I understand the need for humor and laughter, and I and I love um, you know, watching an episode of Frasier or something and and and having a good laugh.
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That's all great.
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But and I and I admire the gift that comedians have.
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I go, wow, you've got a gift, like you.
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But but when I look at myself and I think, what am I called to do?
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I think I'm you know, I think I'm aiming to write songs that that contribute meaning and inspiration and then multiply that.
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And I think we all do that as artists, and I want to encourage, I want to encourage more artists to do that and and more Canadian artists to do that.
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You know, we we we as you know Chris, like when we when we just live and we live in our cultural uh context of Canada, there's some distinctives about being Canadian that are true.
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And I and I think, you know, none of us grow up in a vacuum.
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We we grow up in a cultural context and we take in, you know, elements from things around us and us as Canadians, you know, we're the I say we're a bridge culture between America and Europe.
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You know, we have some European sensibilities and some American sensibilities, and then of course we have the indigenous people that were here before any of the Europeans were, and then there's elements of from their life and their journey that speak to us.
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I mean, it's all those layers put together, but Canadian is something special.
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Canadian there's less Canadian Christian content out there, say compared to 20 years ago, 30 years ago?
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Fellow of mine uh in the industry, music industry, um, a certain corner of, and we were debating about is anybody still out there doing what they're doing and bringing forth, and he's like, There's there's no nobody out there, you know, they're they've gone away, they've stopped doing it.
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And I believe they're out there.
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Maybe some people have just gone dormant.
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And I believe that as industry partners and yourself and what we're doing, and and all these different organizations that are looking to do, you know, spread the word, spread the word.
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Carolyn Ahrens talked about uh uh recently about uh the art, you know, music is is art, um, and there's different genres, but it's it's developing it, it's bringing it forth to the industry, provided there is there's an industry and and there's there's places to play and to get your music out.
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And I think for whatever reason it's it's just kind of gone dormant for a while.
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What are you thinking?
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Are there more less or more people out there?
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Well, I I I think there's always people creating.
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I think a lot of them are doing it in isolation.
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And when I think about you know the state of the industry, my my my sense is that in order to get a healthier industry, maybe the first step, or one of the first steps, there's no definitive anything, I guess, but is to actually build community.
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Like if you want to get to like industry health, but by that that means all the various parts that it takes in order to really see music creation thrive.
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Because it's not just you know the songwriter and not just the recording artist, it's everything from studio engineers to publishing to people who help put on tours.
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Like there's there's all of these pieces, but if we want to do that, um A, there's a lot of people out there that are that are that are creating but in somewhat isolation.
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They feel alone, they don't feel super supported, and they don't feel often super valued by leadership in faith contexts because church leaders are very focused on their singular mission.
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Maybe it's a church planting mission, maybe it's a you know, grow our local church with all the diversity of what our own city is.
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But but but in all of those things, musical art, visual art, um, arts of all kinds is where so much of the lifeblood is in communicating the essence of who we are as human beings, made in the image of God, of who we are in in the way our emotional highs and lows, and the way we are as relational beings.
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Art tells that story.
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And so what we have to do in order to see an increase is first of all encourage community so that artists don't feel so isolated, so that artists feel connected, so that artists feel they're a part of something.
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And then if if we have healthy individuals leading to healthy community, we can eventually have a healthy industry because those people are generating enough substantive art, you know, art that really speaks, that it becomes um more and more vocational, it becomes more and more sustainable.
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And then all of the other support roles around those artists, contact creatives can can grow.
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Um, you know, I I I we need we need great PR, we need, there's just so much, right?
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But but but at the very core, and and me as a songwriter and me as a songwriting instructor, I think songs are the core.
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Songs, and it starts with the seed of inspiration that we talked about, and then learning how to write great songs that move people, that tell stories, that convey emotions, that speak for people.
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And so we need, you know, artists that are getting into it and they need more training, more encouragement, more help.
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And then out of that, we'll grow a stronger, robust community and industry.
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And I I don't I don't think there's less people.
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I just simply think that they're more disconnected and that certain elements of the industry that collapsed.
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Like we don't really fully understand the implications of digital piracy until you walk in about a whole bunch of independent musicians' shoes.
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For a while, right?
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Those musicians that relied on, you know, doing smaller concerts, but at those smaller concerts, being able to sell, you know, 50 to 100 CDs a night, and that at because that was the only way people could hear their music.
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And if they were touched by the music, they wanted to hear it more than just that one time.
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And to remove that and to say, oh, all content, all song content is just on streamers, that is basically for free, virtually free.
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You know, so that's part of what caused an implosion, I think.
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And there's other factors too.
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Well, let's talk about what you're doing these days in terms of collaboration.
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Collaboration, I think you do a lot of collaboration with a number of artists.
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Um, you know, I'd love to hear a little bit about who you've been collaborating with and and how does how does their collaborating with you affect your writing style?
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And then, second, Everett, like I want to uh end on talking about the work that you're doing out there, actually doing what you're saying, what you're describing, creating community, creating mentorship and training and opportunities for community.
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So let's talk about the collaborate who you're collaborating with and how it affects your writing compared to when you're writing on your own.
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And then let's talk about um you know the other, how yeah, yeah.
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Okay, well, collaboration is obviously is is is big.
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And and one of the things I would say, even maybe that people don't think about is the collaboration between a visual artist and uh and a recording or songwriting artist, I think is incredibly vital in today's age.
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And so I'm collaborating with my son-in-law Luke Vandevert, whose artist name is the Arctic, but he's a he's a filmmaker, he's a musician, and but as we work together on creating uh visual art that carries musical art with it, um, it has a way of impacting people that just audio only doesn't.
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So I think that's an incredibly important collaboration.
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I will also say that I feel like I'm collaborating with Roberta Landreth, who's a designer in Winnipeg, and she's won Junos for her album and artwork designs.
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And I think all of those things, the the logos, the the visuals, the the even in Spotify, Apple Music, the digital the covers, all of those visual pieces matter, and I think we have to collaborate with visual artists, with filmmaking artists.
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I'm collaborating song-wise, um, you know, with people like Jalen Johnson in Winnipeg, who's a very seasoned songwriter and has a has a role in GMA Gospel Music Association of Canada.
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I'm collaborating with Marika Sewart, who's a black uh Christian pop slash pop recording artist.
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I mean, her background is more pop music, and she had a number of top 40 pop hits 15-ish years ago.
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That uh yeah, it's fascinating.
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So when we write together, she's bringing her lived experience, of course, of being a black woman in Canada.
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She grew up in England but moved to Alberta as a teenager, and then has since lived out here in the Fraser Valley.
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:53.759
Her lived experience of being a racial minority, but being a person of faith and pop music, yet always had an eye on keeping the roots of her faith there and present in all of her work.
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:56.720
That's been hugely helpful and encouraging.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:10.559
And and and and as you say, it it influences me because when I write with somebody like that, it it helps me take on board things I wouldn't have taken on board if I wasn't writing with her.
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:17.039
I, you know, from time to time, artists get in touch, they reach out to me and they go, hey, can we get together and talk?
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:18.319
I've got this idea or whatever.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:20.160
I go, sure, let's set up a time.
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:25.519
So um, and and my good friend Marika, who I'm collaborating with, does this a lot.
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:27.440
She consults other artists.
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:29.839
We do some of that together as well.
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:43.279
So uh, and then my son-in-law, you know, Luke, he he hosts here a songwriting circle once a month, where you know, 10 to 15 songwriters, it kind of ebbs and flows.
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:49.680
They come and they sit in a circle and they share songs they're working on together and they encourage each other and they help each other.
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:58.240
And but part of it isn't just the songs, it's about the fellowship, so to speak, with just other people that are pursuing that.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:14.880
So I just think we gotta just we need to invest in training, we need to invest in community, and then hopefully health in those things will eventually lead to a healthier, more connected industry in all ways of what that means, you know.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:30.079
Um, which means ultimately, which means better, more inspiring art for people across the country, you know, songs that will really touch people and and and and serve them in their life.
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:30.960
Yes.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:32.960
So how can people reach out to you?
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:34.720
Where can they find you online?
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:36.319
Reach out if they want to.
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:37.759
Well, yeah, it's sure.
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:38.960
It's very, very simple.
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:50.240
You if if if you're interested in the song craft in that community, you just go to unlockingyoursongs.com, you know, little family business slash ministry here in the west coast of Canada.
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:53.839
I really appreciate you spending some time with us on Back to Back today.
00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:57.039
And uh thank you so much for for the interview.
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:58.559
You're very welcome, Chris.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:03.440
It was a joy to speak with you, and I and I love you know the part of country that you're from.
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:13.039
There, so let's hope your efforts and all of our efforts together will lead to an increase in in yeah, quality Christian art in our country.
00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:04.320
Dale forland here, and welcome to Back to Black Radio.
00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:06.400
Today we have a flashback episode.
00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:10.800
Welcome back to the first season of Fact to Black Radio with Chris Ellison.
00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:13.679
He's gonna lead us an interview with Brun and Dirksen.
00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:20.480
In the recent passing of Brun and Dirksen, we thought this was gonna be a special opportunity for you to hear what he has to say.
00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:22.719
Right here on Back to Back Radio.
00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:24.640
And now over to Chris Ellison.
00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:29.199
So have you ever been in church and sung the songs over the years?
00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:38.640
Songs such as Refiner's Fire, Come Now Is the Time to Worship, Hope of the Nations, and many more, like I have in church, not really knowing where it came from.
00:00:38.960 --> 00:01:02.799
On the program today, we have Brian Derrickson, and he's going to talk to us about not only his past and where he's come from, but the incredible work that he's doing with artists in Canada to help grow the Canadian Christian music industry and create a sense of uh of mentorship and community among uh this creative group and and try to provide uh mentorship in terms of how to engage with the the industry out there.
00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:04.079
And it can be a challenge.
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:07.120
And so, Brian, thank you for just joining us today.
00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:09.040
Glad to be with you.
00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:12.000
Well, we want to talk about a variety of things.
00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:17.040
We want to talk a little bit about the past and and the present and the future and what you're doing out west.
00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:26.159
Um can you share with us your journey the uh briefly into music and how you discovered your passion for Christian music?
00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:37.760
You know, um, you know, for me, music was was always one of the two key components of really that spiritual spark in me.
00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:47.680
It was it was nature, it was, you know, trees and the natural world, and it was the musical world that sparked it.
00:01:47.920 --> 00:02:04.239
And um, I just have this, I have this vivid memory of you know being in 10th grade, I was 15 years old and going to my first Christian concert, which happened to be What was that?
00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:11.680
That was Servant, Petra and the Robert Case Band in Seattle, Washington.
00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:25.840
But what was crazy about it was my dad who who really was trying to build bridges uh to me and to my friends, you know, rock and roll wouldn't have been his musical mother tongue, you know.
00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:28.960
He he grew up singing in quartets.
00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:40.639
He he he liked, I mean, he liked all kinds of music as long as it was good music, but it when he thought about expressing faith in music, he didn't really think of rock and roll.
00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:57.120
But anyway, he he he he knew that I was I was being pulled by some of this music, and so he offered to take me and a whole group of our friends and drive us two and a half hours south from where we were living and still live in Abbotsford, British Columbia, down to Seattle to this concert.
00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:13.360
And it was there was multiple things that went on in that concert because you have it was good quality music, it was good quality sound and lighting, and there was a whole community, you know, whatever, a thousand people there.
00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:23.840
So you realized, oh, you know, it's not just a handful of us, there's other people out there that are being stirred by this kind of music.
00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:28.080
And I think that's that was that a moment when a seed was planted in my heart.
00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:36.800
Of course, I didn't think I had, I wasn't, I had no idea if I had what it takes creatively or whatever to create my own music at that point.
00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:41.439
I was just jamming in my bedroom with a guitar, you know.
00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:55.280
Uh, but I think I think that event in um I think that would have been the summer of 1981 would have would have started the journey for me.
00:03:55.520 --> 00:04:08.639
And it took me, you know, fast forward then about like another eight, nine years after that point to my first kind of like recorded, published, released song.
00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:20.879
And um, you know, and that and and we're kind of marking this year, 35 years that I've been doing this kind of like in an almost full-time way.
00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:25.519
And I almost shake my head when I think about 35 years.
00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:28.560
Where on heck did 35 years go?
00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:48.079
Because you feel the same inside, and then you go to do something maybe that you used to do, and you go, and your body says, Oh, but you're not quite the same, you're almost the same, but you're the spirit is willing, but the flesh is getting weaker, just a bit weaker, not all weak, but just a little bit.
00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:52.319
Yeah, no, I I um it's been quite a ride, it's been a good ride.
00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:59.040
You know, a lot of your uh your songs have a blend of worship and personal reflection.
00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:03.839
How do you find inspiration for your lyrics and and your music?
00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:14.959
I mean, maybe one way I'd say is that I, you know, I just kind of like live life, I, you know, in all the layers of life, right?
00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:18.240
You know, I I live in the home where I was raised.
00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:25.040
So I was four years old when when my parents bought this little farmhouse on five acres, which I'm talking to you from now.
00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:28.000
So this has been my home for over 50 years.
00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:34.160
So I live, you know, I have I have a couple of special needs sons who require a lot of support.
00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:41.920
I do various things, but as I as I go through all of the journey of life, I I keep waiting for those aha moments.
00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:49.120
I call them, you know, the gift of a seed, of a song seed, where you're just doing whatever.
00:05:49.199 --> 00:06:00.879
And sometimes you're you could be reading scripture, you could be going for a walk, and this boop, this, this thought, this aha moment comes and I go, I want to sing that.
00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:03.920
You know, that's the seed of a song.
00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:16.560
But I don't, it's like I don't try and pre-condition, you know, is is what I'm gonna write next gonna be a worship song, or is it gonna be a response to issues of the day?
00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:26.480
Or, you know, I'm probably most known for you know songs that are sung in churches and in worship services, but you know, I've written songs for musicals.
00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:31.680
I wrote, I write songs of tribute for people after they've passed to sing at memorial services.
00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:45.920
I I've written a whole bunch of like love songs about long love that I'm I'm recording in the process of recording, um, protest songs about what's happening and justice in the world.
00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:53.360
You know, I think I think all of us as songwriters, you know, I think we're all waiting for the seeds of inspiration.
00:06:53.759 --> 00:07:08.000
And the thing is, Chris, if if you and I were given the exact same seed, the interesting thing is we would write two distinctly different songs, but you could maybe recognize the seed is the same.
00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:12.560
Like maybe it's like a lyrical phrase, or maybe it's a melodic hook.
00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:23.360
Um I think what we do with the creative seeds in our lives is it is a is a reflection and a demonstration of who we are.
00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:28.959
Um, the things we love, the things that move us.
00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:44.160
Um you know, some are more, you know, um melancholy, some are more extroverted, some are more, you know, like in all the diversity of emotions and personalities.
00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:50.399
So I think we take in the seeds of inspiration and then we we find a way to express it.
00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:54.240
And you know, songs are a very unique art form, too, right?
00:07:54.480 --> 00:08:19.040
Because the the the development of song form and structure over the last several hundred years has got us to a point that maybe, you know, you you mentioned, you know, Petra's been on the road for 50 years, you know, probably now the modern song structure of how we express songs has probably been around for a little bit more than 50 years, but not much.
00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:49.120
But you can really see the if you study song structure, and I and I have as a songwriting instructor, it's quite interesting what happened in the 1800s and the early 1900s to get to this place where then you and I take a seed of inspiration and we go, I want to sing this, and we think about verses and choruses, or we think about an AABA form, or we think about the 12-bar blues, or we think about, you know what I mean?
00:08:49.200 --> 00:09:02.320
Like, so we have these containers that we've gotten used to communicating to each other with, but what's really important is not the container, it's the content, right?
00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:04.559
It's what's in the container.
00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:10.960
And you know, most of us songwriters, we don't create, we don't invent new containers.
00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:26.240
What we do is we take existing containers and we find fresh ways to fill them with the content of our songs, and of course, without the inspiration, without that spark, we don't get rolling.
00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:35.120
Yeah, but without our personalities, what gets expressed in the end would all sound the same.
00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:39.600
So we need to mark what it is we're expressing.
00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:46.720
Like in a song like Come Now's Time to Worship, one of my more well-known songs, I have a line in there, Come just as you are.
00:09:47.120 --> 00:10:01.279
And that just as you are was there because I was in a very low, disorienting season of my life after finding out our son had fragile X syndrome and would require care for the rest of his life.
00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:12.159
We had tried to launch a musical where I'd written all the songs, and the album had succeeded, Father's House, which is coming up to its 30th anniversary, crazy.
00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:23.120
And uh, but the live stage show that we poured this immense amount of energy in a couple of years and probably over a million dollars of investment failed.
00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:28.639
And so I was in a very disoriented season.
00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:41.759
So, you know, it's also that thing where we have our personality when the seed of inspiration comes, but we also have what we're our lived experience is in that season, and that also influences the content of the song.
00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:46.720
And so, what inspires us to write our music, and it would be interesting.
00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:59.039
I've always thought it would be interesting to get a number of artists uh write and record a song that maybe we're aware of, but to see how it is done in a different and unique way.
00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:00.480
I think that would be interesting.
00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:06.159
I don't know how that would happen, but but the what inspires you to write and you put it on paper.
00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:16.879
And what's interesting is your music has uh it's been around used widely in churches, not only around Canada, North America, but the world.
00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:18.399
So, how does it feel?
00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:24.480
You wrote these some of these songs because of what you were inspired to write, a message you wanted to send out there.
00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:28.879
But what's happened is a lot of people have been blessed and become inspired.
00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:41.759
So, what does it feel like for you as an artist to not only do what you do, you're inspired, you write, you say something, but that it's received on such a large scale and that you've impacted people's lives.
00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:42.799
How does that feel?
00:11:43.039 --> 00:12:03.360
Well, it's encouraging, but the thing is, in in the day-to-day, I I'm not aware of that larger influence at all because I'm just living my life here in my home and and looking after my son when he gets up and he needs care and he needs to be prepared for his day program and he doesn't speak.
00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:07.120
And so he's trying to he's trying to communicate without words what he needs.
00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:13.919
And and so, in a sense, in the in the everydayness of my life, I'm not thinking about anything grand.
00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:20.639
I'm not thinking, oh, you know, probably millions of people, so to speak, have sung these songs over the last 30 years.
00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:50.080
Because obviously it's in it's encouraging when you get a note, you know, um, and a note of encouragement arrives from somewhere on the other side of the planet, you know, from Denmark or Slovakia or these places, I get some of these notes and just saying, hey, thank you for writing Faithful One, because I was in this really rough season and I lost my words and I didn't know what to say, and there was your song and it gave me voice.
00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:52.399
Um, that's a miracle.
00:12:52.480 --> 00:13:11.919
I mean, it's a miracle, A, that my song, written in my bedroom when I was 23 years old, overwhelmed by being a first-time father and thankful for it, and also in kind of trepidation.
00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:13.600
Oh man, I'm gonna blow it.
00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:15.919
I know I'm gonna let my daughter down.
00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:20.080
God, I need you to be faithful one, so unchanging.
00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:22.480
You know, like so is my prayer, right?
00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:51.120
So the miracle of that finds its way from my bedroom to somebody in the mountains of Slovakia, and then they years later write to me and say, Thank you for writing this song because I was going through X and Y, and I needed something, and your song was there to say, you know, I think I think you know, songs become traveling or journeying companions to people if if we speak for them.
00:13:51.279 --> 00:14:02.960
You know, I think sometimes as Christian musicians, we think a lot about message and we want to sing to people this message, but I think the best songs don't speak to people, they speak for people.
00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:07.440
In other words, people go, Oh, I wanted to say that, right?
00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:17.919
I want it, I needed, and especially, of course, when you think of worship kind of songs that people, individuals, and congregations sing.
00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:22.639
So, yeah, you're talking about like the multiplication of inspiration.
00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:35.039
I think that's one of the reasons why we need to encourage as many artists and creative people as we can to create the the songs that are uniquely theirs to write and create.
00:14:35.200 --> 00:15:06.159
Because when they do that, it it multiplies inspiration because they take the inspiration that they've been given, they write a song, which then in turn inspires somebody else, maybe not as a songwriter, but maybe as a teacher, or maybe as somebody who's just serving the elderly or or working with the homeless, or whatever it is they're doing with their life, and the song comes along and helps give them voice, it inspires them to keep going.
00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:20.720
I think we want to make music that matters, that that that has some that has meaning to it, that that that can become uh a companion for somebody else, an encouraging companion.
00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:34.720
You know, it's like there's so much content being created in our world, so many, and so much of it's mindless, kind of like entertainment, like it's it's just meant to amuse for the moment.
00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:46.960
And I I understand the need for humor and laughter, and I and I love um, you know, watching an episode of Frasier or something and and and having a good laugh.
00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:48.559
That's all great.
00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:51.919
But and I and I admire the gift that comedians have.
00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:53.919
I go, wow, you've got a gift, like you.
00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:58.960
But but when I look at myself and I think, what am I called to do?
00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:07.759
I think I'm you know, I think I'm aiming to write songs that that contribute meaning and inspiration and then multiply that.
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:16.799
And I think we all do that as artists, and I want to encourage, I want to encourage more artists to do that and and more Canadian artists to do that.
00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:33.840
You know, we we we as you know Chris, like when we when we just live and we live in our cultural uh context of Canada, there's some distinctives about being Canadian that are true.
00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:38.159
And I and I think, you know, none of us grow up in a vacuum.
00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:50.960
We we grow up in a cultural context and we take in, you know, elements from things around us and us as Canadians, you know, we're the I say we're a bridge culture between America and Europe.
00:16:51.120 --> 00:17:07.599
You know, we have some European sensibilities and some American sensibilities, and then of course we have the indigenous people that were here before any of the Europeans were, and then there's elements of from their life and their journey that speak to us.
00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:13.039
I mean, it's all those layers put together, but Canadian is something special.
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:19.839
Canadian there's less Canadian Christian content out there, say compared to 20 years ago, 30 years ago?
00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:34.640
Fellow of mine uh in the industry, music industry, um, a certain corner of, and we were debating about is anybody still out there doing what they're doing and bringing forth, and he's like, There's there's no nobody out there, you know, they're they've gone away, they've stopped doing it.
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:36.480
And I believe they're out there.
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.759
Maybe some people have just gone dormant.
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:51.200
And I believe that as industry partners and yourself and what we're doing, and and all these different organizations that are looking to do, you know, spread the word, spread the word.
00:17:51.440 --> 00:18:12.559
Carolyn Ahrens talked about uh uh recently about uh the art, you know, music is is art, um, and there's different genres, but it's it's developing it, it's bringing it forth to the industry, provided there is there's an industry and and there's there's places to play and to get your music out.
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:16.400
And I think for whatever reason it's it's just kind of gone dormant for a while.
00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:17.119
What are you thinking?
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.440
Are there more less or more people out there?
00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:24.480
Well, I I I think there's always people creating.
00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:27.359
I think a lot of them are doing it in isolation.
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:44.240
And when I think about you know the state of the industry, my my my sense is that in order to get a healthier industry, maybe the first step, or one of the first steps, there's no definitive anything, I guess, but is to actually build community.
00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:58.079
Like if you want to get to like industry health, but by that that means all the various parts that it takes in order to really see music creation thrive.
00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:12.000
Because it's not just you know the songwriter and not just the recording artist, it's everything from studio engineers to publishing to people who help put on tours.
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:23.440
Like there's there's all of these pieces, but if we want to do that, um A, there's a lot of people out there that are that are that are creating but in somewhat isolation.
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:37.839
They feel alone, they don't feel super supported, and they don't feel often super valued by leadership in faith contexts because church leaders are very focused on their singular mission.
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:46.480
Maybe it's a church planting mission, maybe it's a you know, grow our local church with all the diversity of what our own city is.
00:19:46.640 --> 00:20:11.279
But but but in all of those things, musical art, visual art, um, arts of all kinds is where so much of the lifeblood is in communicating the essence of who we are as human beings, made in the image of God, of who we are in in the way our emotional highs and lows, and the way we are as relational beings.
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.319
Art tells that story.
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:30.880
And so what we have to do in order to see an increase is first of all encourage community so that artists don't feel so isolated, so that artists feel connected, so that artists feel they're a part of something.
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:51.680
And then if if we have healthy individuals leading to healthy community, we can eventually have a healthy industry because those people are generating enough substantive art, you know, art that really speaks, that it becomes um more and more vocational, it becomes more and more sustainable.
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:58.880
And then all of the other support roles around those artists, contact creatives can can grow.
00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:06.480
Um, you know, I I I we need we need great PR, we need, there's just so much, right?
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:14.880
But but but at the very core, and and me as a songwriter and me as a songwriting instructor, I think songs are the core.
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:26.160
Songs, and it starts with the seed of inspiration that we talked about, and then learning how to write great songs that move people, that tell stories, that convey emotions, that speak for people.
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:32.880
And so we need, you know, artists that are getting into it and they need more training, more encouragement, more help.
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:37.440
And then out of that, we'll grow a stronger, robust community and industry.
00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:40.880
And I I don't I don't think there's less people.
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:48.960
I just simply think that they're more disconnected and that certain elements of the industry that collapsed.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:59.839
Like we don't really fully understand the implications of digital piracy until you walk in about a whole bunch of independent musicians' shoes.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:01.599
For a while, right?
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:22.400
Those musicians that relied on, you know, doing smaller concerts, but at those smaller concerts, being able to sell, you know, 50 to 100 CDs a night, and that at because that was the only way people could hear their music.
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:26.960
And if they were touched by the music, they wanted to hear it more than just that one time.
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:36.799
And to remove that and to say, oh, all content, all song content is just on streamers, that is basically for free, virtually free.
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:40.480
You know, so that's part of what caused an implosion, I think.
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:42.720
And there's other factors too.
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:48.240
Well, let's talk about what you're doing these days in terms of collaboration.
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.559
Collaboration, I think you do a lot of collaboration with a number of artists.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:23:03.680
Um, you know, I'd love to hear a little bit about who you've been collaborating with and and how does how does their collaborating with you affect your writing style?
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:17.680
And then, second, Everett, like I want to uh end on talking about the work that you're doing out there, actually doing what you're saying, what you're describing, creating community, creating mentorship and training and opportunities for community.
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:23.119
So let's talk about the collaborate who you're collaborating with and how it affects your writing compared to when you're writing on your own.
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:27.599
And then let's talk about um you know the other, how yeah, yeah.
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.680
Okay, well, collaboration is obviously is is is big.
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:44.559
And and one of the things I would say, even maybe that people don't think about is the collaboration between a visual artist and uh and a recording or songwriting artist, I think is incredibly vital in today's age.
00:23:44.799 --> 00:24:12.160
And so I'm collaborating with my son-in-law Luke Vandevert, whose artist name is the Arctic, but he's a he's a filmmaker, he's a musician, and but as we work together on creating uh visual art that carries musical art with it, um, it has a way of impacting people that just audio only doesn't.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:14.480
So I think that's an incredibly important collaboration.
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:26.319
I will also say that I feel like I'm collaborating with Roberta Landreth, who's a designer in Winnipeg, and she's won Junos for her album and artwork designs.
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:45.440
And I think all of those things, the the logos, the the visuals, the the even in Spotify, Apple Music, the digital the covers, all of those visual pieces matter, and I think we have to collaborate with visual artists, with filmmaking artists.
00:24:45.599 --> 00:25:00.720
I'm collaborating song-wise, um, you know, with people like Jalen Johnson in Winnipeg, who's a very seasoned songwriter and has a has a role in GMA Gospel Music Association of Canada.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:09.119
I'm collaborating with Marika Sewart, who's a black uh Christian pop slash pop recording artist.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:17.839
I mean, her background is more pop music, and she had a number of top 40 pop hits 15-ish years ago.
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:20.640
That uh yeah, it's fascinating.
00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:29.119
So when we write together, she's bringing her lived experience, of course, of being a black woman in Canada.
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:36.079
She grew up in England but moved to Alberta as a teenager, and then has since lived out here in the Fraser Valley.
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:53.759
Her lived experience of being a racial minority, but being a person of faith and pop music, yet always had an eye on keeping the roots of her faith there and present in all of her work.
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:56.720
That's been hugely helpful and encouraging.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:10.559
And and and and as you say, it it influences me because when I write with somebody like that, it it helps me take on board things I wouldn't have taken on board if I wasn't writing with her.
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:17.039
I, you know, from time to time, artists get in touch, they reach out to me and they go, hey, can we get together and talk?
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:18.319
I've got this idea or whatever.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:20.160
I go, sure, let's set up a time.
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:25.519
So um, and and my good friend Marika, who I'm collaborating with, does this a lot.
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:27.440
She consults other artists.
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:29.839
We do some of that together as well.
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:43.279
So uh, and then my son-in-law, you know, Luke, he he hosts here a songwriting circle once a month, where you know, 10 to 15 songwriters, it kind of ebbs and flows.
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:49.680
They come and they sit in a circle and they share songs they're working on together and they encourage each other and they help each other.
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:58.240
And but part of it isn't just the songs, it's about the fellowship, so to speak, with just other people that are pursuing that.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:14.880
So I just think we gotta just we need to invest in training, we need to invest in community, and then hopefully health in those things will eventually lead to a healthier, more connected industry in all ways of what that means, you know.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:30.079
Um, which means ultimately, which means better, more inspiring art for people across the country, you know, songs that will really touch people and and and and serve them in their life.
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:30.960
Yes.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:32.960
So how can people reach out to you?
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:34.720
Where can they find you online?
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:36.319
Reach out if they want to.
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:37.759
Well, yeah, it's sure.
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:38.960
It's very, very simple.
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:50.240
You if if if you're interested in the song craft in that community, you just go to unlockingyoursongs.com, you know, little family business slash ministry here in the west coast of Canada.
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:53.839
I really appreciate you spending some time with us on Back to Back today.
00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:57.039
And uh thank you so much for for the interview.
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:58.559
You're very welcome, Chris.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:03.440
It was a joy to speak with you, and I and I love you know the part of country that you're from.
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:13.039
There, so let's hope your efforts and all of our efforts together will lead to an increase in in yeah, quality Christian art in our country.
