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Welcome to the latest episode of the Auto Future Cast with me, Chris Kirby, in association with professional services company Aeon, Tomorrow's Journey and Generational.
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Today we're swapping four wheels for two wheels.
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We're joined by Caroline Seatum from Hume Forest.
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Caroline, welcome.
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In today's session, we're going to cover some real ground actually, because we don't talk loads about micro-mobility.
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So we're going to cover a bit of the background of micromobility, what some of the trends are, what some of the challenges we've got kind of facing the industry, particularly here in London, and think then about what the outlook might look like.
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So a lot of ground to cover.
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But first of all, Caroline, just give us a little bit of uh your background.
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Always ask the guests just to set the scene of kind of your background and the background of human forest as well.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Chris, thanks so much for having me on today.
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I'm my name's Caroline Seaton.
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I'm a co-founder and the CLO of Forest.
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We founded Forest six years ago now to solve a solve a what we found is a gap in the market for micro-mobility solutions.
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We thought there were a couple of operators already in in London, but for us, we thought there was a need for something more sustainable and also affordable.
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We found a forest on the premise of 10 minutes free daily in a way to just grow the pie of, you know, grow market share for cycling and in particular shared cycling.
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And that really worked.
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That 10 Minutes Free was able to do that.
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So now here we are in 20 London boroughs.
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And we started off in two and um three million trips last month.
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Exciting news coming up from Auto Future Cast uh in November on the 18th.
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Uh, we're going to be holding an event in London, Auto Future Cast Live, uh Aeon's Offices, uh just by Liverpool Street Station.
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Um more details to come, so uh stay tuned, uh, check out the socials, uh, listen to future episodes to uh to get more details.
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So now here we are in 20 London boroughs.
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And we started off in two.
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Yeah, and um three million trips last month.
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Yeah, three million trips last month.
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Fantastic.
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I mean, you definitely really see that change in in London for someone who's been travelling into London for business for 10 years or so, of like just how many people are on kind of shared uh mobility and and shared bikes primarily in in London.
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But what was the just the micro-mobility journey's been really interesting one for me, kind of being slightly parallel to it, adjacent to it, but like not in it, of kind of seeing how it transitioned.
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There was a lot of stuff, I guess, pre-COVID, it was starting to come into the market.
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Um, then COVID kind of changed it in a bad way, maybe temporarily, and then in into a good way.
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Uh, there was a kind of whole hype around scooters, which appears to have kind of come and gone, particularly from the kind of London, London world.
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So, uh, how did you guys find that that sort of journey through the kind of micromobility timeline?
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I suppose.
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Yeah, I mean, that's you would have, yeah, the the way that people move around London has completely changed.
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And Dockless bikes, in particular, you know, operators like Forrest have really had a huge uptick in usage.
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You're so right, during COVID, we had we had just launched a trial pre-COVID and with with two boroughs.
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And so we were quite lucky in the sense that we weren't on the we were able to pause our operation during COVID and relaunch um halfway through COVID at the point where people were starting to move around away again, but we're looking for COVID-safe ways to do so.
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And what we really see is things like COVID or the tube strike or a heat wave.
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These are points when people try new things, and we've continued to see numbers, ridership really grow based on those sort of one-off days.
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But the great thing is that people do end up sustaining that behavior.
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So they try something for the first time, they do something different on these sort of black swan, slightly black swan events.
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Uh, but then it does trigger a behavioral change.
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And so we've had these sort of compounded, that sort of ridership has been compounded, particularly over the heat waves over this last, you know, this omnipresent heat wave.
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Um, and so we do just continue to to people to to change their usage because often bike share or or biking is the quickest way, most convenient way to get around.
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When you see the four options, you know, in Google Maps or City Mapper or whatever platform you use, cycling is often the quickest.
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And it's been a natural air conditioner as well for people in recent weeks.
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Yeah, yeah, definitely.
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I think that's it's a super interesting one, isn't it?
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Because I think that yeah, as soon as you're getting people who are finding a reason to break their habits, you say like avoiding the tube, avoiding the tube for a long time.
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I think like the first year or so after we were moving in COVID, I was I basically either walked or cycled everywhere because we're going like just let's let's not not go on the tube.
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No one wants to go on the tube when it's hot like this.
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I did this morning actually, but only uh but not partly because it was a bit bit further than uh than normal, but definitely seeing sort of people taking up the routes, and like we say we the the difference in when you're crossing the street now in London and you just like first of all the traffic lights, you're seeing 50 people on a on a shared bike.
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And I guess before the sharing part of it, cycling was more difficult because you had to have your own bike, you had to lock it somewhere, store it somewhere, you had to bring it into London if you were commuting.
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So it's definitely a thing that's like unlocked cycling for a lot of people in that community.
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Definitely makes it more accessible.
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We see sort of two types of users people who already have their own bike but may complement their usage with using a forest bike.
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And if they're not planning to come home, they're like they're gonna be hot drinking that evening, or they're not quite sure how they're getting back, or so they'll they'll use they'll use the shared option, or it's people, as you say, who you know, the financial um investment of purchasing a bike is quite is great.
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Um, so it makes it more accessible, yeah.
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And and without the risk too, with the with the locking it's yeah, exactly.
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Yeah, like the storing of bikes and and all of that stuff.
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I mean, I'm a keen cyclist in uh recreational sense.
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Um, and that's the thing.
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I would never bring my bike either of either of my many bikes uh into London because you just like couldn't, unless you could store them like inside, you don't want to be locking anything outside.
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What if it's raining, like all of those things?
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It gives you some real optionality, but still be able to use it.
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And shared bikes have really created a new type of cyclist.
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So we sort of had the lycroclad cyclists or or you know the childhood cyclists, and now we've got this huge cohort of people like you and I wearing regular clothes, coming into work with our backpacks, and this whole yeah, as you say, the way that when you pull up at the lights, there's this new type of new type of cyclist.
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Yeah, yeah, definitely.
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It's a new uh new hazard to watch out for for pedestrians as well.
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Yes, well, that is definitely something that we're education, education and technology to try and you know influence that behaviour and and ensure that the bike sharers work for both the users and the non-users.
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Yeah, and do you find that like safety is a um can be a bit of an issue where you've got people who are new to it, and I don't mean like new to riding a bike, but I always think that like when when I cycle in London, I'm I'm I don't know, probably cycle three or four hundred kilometres a week at home.
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I'm used to riding on the road, I'm used to riding with cars around me.
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Do you do you find there's kind of safety as for people getting their head around?
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How do you guys tackle that?
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I'm getting on the bike in London for the first time.
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Yeah, I know how to ride a bike, but I've never really ridden on the road.
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Is that a sort of a bit of either a barrier or something that you you guys are concerned about?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Like the first-time user when they first create an account is something we've got you know, special steps involved for them.
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So there's mandatory sort of an education three-step process where they take a small test to either either like on the highway code, but also on you know, just the sort of basic common sense of familiarising yourself with a bike.
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Um, and then we also have go slow mode, um, which is reduced acceleration for those that are new.
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Okay.
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Go slowed or beginner mode.
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Um as we as we call it.
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So uh and then it's again just the training that we do.
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We um partner with a lot of the London boroughs that we're in to facilitate training um on our e-bikes, yeah.
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Just to give people that option um to familiarize themselves and get comfortable.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, it's probably a bit of a balancing act as well.
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You've got that element where you go, oh, there's a you know, someone's oh, yeah, I'll jump on and give it a go.
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And you want to make sure that they're fully prepared, but probably also a group of people who would like to try it but are worried about it, I guess.
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So the the education goes both ways.
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You want to make sure a new user is safe, but you also want to encourage potential users to feel like it's safe and to feel confident in doing it.
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And one of the things about Forest as well, our customer service team is always available on the end of the phone, and we do actually see that that's a service that's utilized all the time.
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Yeah.
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Where people can troubleshoot on the spot, they can ask questions, um, and that breaks down some of the barriers or kind of friction points for new users who may be feeling more uncomfortable.
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Yeah.
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And how how have you seen kind of to that point?
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How have you seen the kind of usership develop?
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I know you said it's grown and it it has little jumps when uh when it's hot or when there's there's things happening.
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Um but how how have you seen that kind of I guess growth of usership and then also retention?
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Do you see people using it for a bit and not using it as a seasonality?
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Just tell us a bit about that.
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I'm just I'm fascinated to see that.
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Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it?
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I mean, to my background, I was new to micromobility.
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Um I work with two other co-founders, Augustine Gilastasi, who is ex-Cabify.
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Right.
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And Cabify, if you don't know, is sort of the Uber, casually the Uber of um Latin America and and in Spain, so sort of the Spanish-speaking world.
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So he had a lot of experience in micromobility through Cabify in a previous company um called Movo.
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So he had a, and when I first sort of talked to him about forest in London, I said, oh my gosh, but it rains so much here, it's so cold.
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You know, this is going to be a two-speed company, you know, summer and and then that sort of protracted winter.
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And the winters seem to have got a little bit shorter, but um, but we don't see that massive drop-off.
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And I think particularly in the UK, it's quite a dry rain.
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Yeah.
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Um, and so we see around a 30% drop-off um in those winter, though, for those winter months.
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Although we have had some exceptionally high peaks um over this heat wave this summer.
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So it will be interesting that 30% might be a, you know, will probably grow based on the lofty heights that we've had.
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You know, we had 10,000 new users the other day.
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Wow.
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Three million trips, as I mentioned in July.
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So the number we're continuing to break records um in terms of ridership and usage.
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Yeah, and and do you see people in terms of those the the 10,000 new users, what's the sort of stickiness of them?
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Do they do you find this kind of different groups, the ones that would be like, oh cool, okay, right.
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I'm using this and now I'm using it on my commute five, four, three days a week, whatever, or the casual user, maybe some people use it for a bit and drop off.
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How's the how does that work?
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Yeah, no, no, it's um it it definitely varies depending on the cohort and the month that they join.
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Yeah.
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So for example, you know, if they if we're looking at the July cohort, within that will be a number of tourists.
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So then that they obviously leave and then that drops off.
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So we see about 70 to 80 percent of those users continue to take a trip.
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And we look at, you know, do they take a trip in the next month or two months later?
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Um and but what we've really noticed is as the fleet has grown, so we've got more bikes, a greater density of bikes, the number of trips per user definitely increases.
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Okay, as does the number of trips per bike.
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Yeah.
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So what that kind of is showing us is that if you've got a density of parking spaces and bikes, people can rely on there what there being one available, rely on walking out of your office or a cafe or a restaurant and knowing that you can get a bike.
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So opening that app.
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And then that's really quite a virtuous cycle in the sense of more trips, you know, greater utilization of the space on the on the curbside space.
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That's a huge topic in London, is how do we allocate space in a way that reflects demand?
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Yeah.
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And what we are really trying to push for at Forrest is that we create more parking base.
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Um now, as I've mentioned, you know, three million trips last month, two million trips now taken, taken on bikes per day across London.
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And those are TFL, TFL figures.
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And car ownership is declining.
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So we want the public space to sort of reflect the changes that are taking place within consumer behavior.
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To support it rather than be sort of impacted by a lot of people.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Because we need to, you know, ride or London is commuting behaviour is changing.
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We've got declining applications for driver's license, as I just mentioned, declining car ownership.
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And so as those that changes, we need to think about how space is allocated in a way that reflects this new dynamic, which is increased bike bike usage.
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Yeah.
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And as you say, the the often the more bikes that are made available increases the usage at as well.
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So there's a it's not a case of.
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So that's pushing in the right direction in terms of you know the mayor's transport strategy, you know, 80% of trips to be on you know, walking and bikes, you know, active travel by 2030.
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You know, that's something that's really important, get it to reach that 80%.
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And bike share can be a really you know fundamental part of that.
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Yeah, and it's really interesting.
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I mean, we want to talk a bit about the the transport mix in in London, but I've I've always said when we talk about things like micro-mobility or car sharing, other things in London, it is quite reflective of like major European cities.
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I guess the model is quite uh uh quite repeatable in that in that sort of the the things that we can see here are repeatable across across Europe.
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Uh how do you guys see this kind of impacting the mix?
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So you mentioned about declining car ownership uh in London, which I think you know definitely is a known fact within the auto side of um our podcast listener group.
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Um do you see this being part of a wider mix and wider change of of how people travel?
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Is it going to be the key component that people are gonna switch from cars to these kind of active travel modes?
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How do you guys kind of fit fit that in?
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What's your your thoughts on structuring it?
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Yeah, what's really important, we think, is all transport modes working together.
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So that multimodal integrated approach to transport in London.
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And what does that look like?
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That means you know, parking bays, outside train stations, tube stations, it also needs um car sharing as well.
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It's really sad to see Zipcar leave the UK because of the cost of the licenses, um, and it became no longer economically viable.
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And if we want to support, you know, continued declining car ownership, rising active travel, it needs to be complemented, you know, with other with other modes and other services so that we can do all the trips that you know Londoners need to.
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So if it's you know you're moving house or you're taking kids to school, you, or you're doing a you know, big grocery shop and you need a car, then you've got that shared car to use.
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So you've got to look at it in the whole picture.
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But what we really look at and which we think is so important is the number of trips per bike per day.
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Yeah.
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And that's really, you know, that is a you know, a KPI which we think justifies the bike on the on the curbside.
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And we can, you know, look at that to think, you know, there's one car sitting there that may be stationary for you know for three days.
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That one car car parking space could take 10 bikes.
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And the some of the bikes um also we've done an average of 10 trips per bike um in July in some boroughs.
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So that means that you could be doing, you know, literally very simple mass, 100 trips per parking bay per day.
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Yeah, and if that bike, that bike car's not moving for two, three days, that's 300 trips.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So it's really important to kind of recalibrate the way that we're thinking about that space to maximize, you know, efficiency and and trip generation.
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Yeah.
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And does that come into thinking a bit about the car sharing example, like thinking about second cars?
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Because I think the second car ownership is that key bit I've always thought of like, okay, main family car, kind of important, you have it there, case of emergencies, all those things.
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But a lot of households still have second cars.
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And if you could in removing that, okay, you could remove that for your commute.
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But then what happens when you need to leave town in your second car?
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Well, that's when you need a zip car type kind of shared service.
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Yeah.
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Um, but is that kind of a thing you're you're thinking about, that kind of second car at home in London?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean, there's over 600,000 families or or households rather with with two cars.
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Yeah.
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And if you could just quite simply, you know, eliminate the second car or you know, parking spaces for that second car, you know, some households, you know, naturally may need second cars for specific reasons, but across the board, you know, that's 1.8 million parking.
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You know, it's just it's phenomenal the number of um trips that could be generated and and bike spaces that could be generated just from removing or or penalizing the second car in a way that does just reduce that a little bit.
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But as you say, kind of unlocking the potential of it does require support from some of the other modes as well.
00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:03.440
So say if you're going to give up your second car, you might want the comfort that you could hire a zip car or equivalent car share on the one time a week that you need it.
00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:11.839
But at the minute you're keeping your second car for the one time a week you need it, which is then holding up a bay that could be, you know, the one zip car could serve a street of people.
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:15.119
The second car, the other bays can get made available for other modes.
00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:15.680
Exactly.
00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:30.079
And it's so it's that holistic look at all the different shared modes, you know, integrating with the traditional transport options, you know, train stations, tube stations, and creating a transport system that works for all use cases.
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:31.359
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:44.480
Um and on just thinking about the it's kind of touching a bit on the transport mix, but just I'm interested in a little bit in kind of the fleet management element of it and kind of how how do you make sure the bikes are in the right place, that they've got the right charge, or all of those things.
00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:46.880
I mean, I imagine that's like a whole episode on its own, right?
00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:50.160
We need some diagrams and some other things, but just in a in a in a nutshell.
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:51.359
It's really interesting.
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:57.200
So a rainy day or a rainy morning wreaks havoc.
00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:00.960
Because what we see is that people do trips there and back.
00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:05.279
So the vast majority of people will take you know a return trip on a forest bike.
00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:14.319
Um, so if they end up taking the tube one way and then they're looking for the bike to come back, you know, the bike so the users very much put the bikes often in the right place.
00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:14.640
Okay.
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:15.440
You know, naturally.
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:17.359
Obviously, we need to without disturbances.
00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:20.640
If you were just running like a normal, undisturbed thing, they they naturally.
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:36.319
So all going to plan, the users do, and we end up having to relocate bikes, you know, that have been left somewhere, you know, in the wrong place, or there's been an oversupply, perhaps at um, you know, a one-off event like a festival or you know, the London Marathon or things like that.
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:44.319
And then we end up, and sometimes when we're, you know, parking baits are too full, we will, you know, have one of our electric vans come in and remove bikes.
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:52.079
So we do definitely tinker around the edges and make sure that we're you know fine-tuning the fleet to be in the right place at the right time.
00:19:52.319 --> 00:20:00.640
But London does move in a way that, you know, as you say, without disturbances, the bikes can be positioned for where the demand lays.
00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:03.519
Um, but we do have a huge guardian team.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:14.079
Um, so these we call them forest guardians, and they're involved, um, they tidy the bikes, they do very like basic, you know, maintenance, the checking, basic safety checks.
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:23.039
And then we also have you know very quick maintenance tasks that they can do on street um that don't require us to take the bike back to the warehouse.
00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:36.000
Um and those work really that works really well because it means that the bikes have a touch point almost every 24 hours just to sort of check in, swap the battery if needed, um, check on you know those key safety touch points.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:37.759
Um and that works really well.
00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:52.400
But forest has built its own operations app, and that's really where we think a lot of the value in Forest lies, both for cities um and for the company itself, because we can really track and measure all we do in operations.
00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:59.519
So we can proactively come to bikes to you know check maintenance, you know, check on the maintenance front and also swapping out batteries.
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:07.279
And then we can also see you know, allocate tasks to the guardians in the most um efficient way in terms of like route management.
00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:16.319
So you can see that you can plot their routes in a way that maximizes the time spent and reduces sort of the miles between um between those jobs.
00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:17.039
Yeah, great.
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:24.400
So it's kind of it's a that sort of classic uh kind of combination of fleet management and deliver for vehicle delivery type type technology.
00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:25.119
Exactly.
00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:40.960
And that's where we can really deliver on those SLAs that we have to the boroughs and make sure that we're running the fleet in the best possible way, and both for you know, for users in terms of that availability, um, and also ensuring that the bike's in really good condition.
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:41.759
Yeah, okay.
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:53.680
And and in terms of um one of the things that I probably less talked about now, but one of the big sort of micromobility um topics was always things like vandalism and you know, kind of uh rogue behaviour.
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.799
Is that a thing you you obviously must see some of it?
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.359
Is it a thing that's growing, declining?
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.279
What's that that look like in a kind of typical London setup?
00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:09.440
I mean, I think London has, you know, a long memory and quite rightly of those sort of very early days of bike share.
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:22.000
Because Offo and Mo Bike, and there's, you know, there's still these stock pictures in the media of, you know, an off o bike up a tree, or and the difference there was that they weren't actually in app locking systems.
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:23.839
So they were physical locks.
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:27.680
And so you'd have people just cut the lock and away they go.
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:34.720
And because they weren't actually legitimately on a hire, they would act in a way that there was zero accountability.
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:39.119
That now has changed thanks to you know really strong technology.
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:41.359
And now everything is done via the app.
00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:55.759
So you can't, for those who you know haven't used a forest bike before, it's all you you know, you scan the bike with your with your phone, it then registers the bike, you push unlock, it attaches that trip higher to your account.
00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:58.400
And then to lock it again, you do so via the app.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:02.559
And so that means that we've really minimized you know the vandalism.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:07.839
Um, I think hacking has been an issue for some of the operators in the industry.
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:11.839
Fortunately, that hasn't been something that we have faced.
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:16.160
The technology has been able to, you know, prevent that from happening.
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:25.119
So that's where you do start to see a bit of antisocial behaviour creep in again in this sort of new wave of micromobility, um, is is due to hacking.
00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:32.240
But in general, that isn't something that foresters, you know, there's obviously a few, you get a few issues and you just can't stamp those out.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:33.839
But in general, it's not a wise problem.
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:39.119
It's not the same thing as they say at the start, it was people, kids were basically going, Do you know what would be really fun?
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:42.559
Why don't we just like cut the lock on this bike and throw it up a tree and it's a thing?
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.119
Whereas now it's sort of become a bit too hard to do that and then find a different way of entertaining.
00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:51.039
And if you try to take a forest bike without a hire, it sets off an alarm.
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:52.559
It's impossible to push.
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:56.000
I mean, it just you have to really, really want to do it.
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:58.160
And even then it's it's yeah, yeah.
00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:01.279
There's no real value to it, it's uh it's only for the fun factor.
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:03.920
And if you and if it's noisy and you can't push it, then there's not much.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:06.720
So I think people have moved on from that, to be honest.
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:17.759
Thankfully, I mean, we never say, you know, there's always going to be a few isolated incidents, but it's I definitely in my hometown, I definitely saw a line bike that looked like it had been pulled out of a river a couple of days ago.
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:21.279
She covered in mud head to head to toe.
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:24.079
But um, so yeah, I think it kind of kind of stuff does happen a little bit.
00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:31.920
Um, but yeah, it's good that it's I guess also because it's now such a tool in London, the the novelty of it is kind of worn off and people have kind of moved.
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:43.680
I think that's the hacking problem um that has faced you know one of our competitors, and that's something that you know with a bird song of hackney that click, click, click, where it means uh it's not on a on a rental.
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:44.720
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:48.720
I didn't I just thought they were all broken for age, and then someone told me that, and I was like, oh right.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:51.279
Now my car's been hacked.
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:52.079
Yeah, exactly.
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:54.720
And you see someone who's looking quite pleased with themselves.
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:57.920
Yeah, yeah, because I think I hired one one like a long time ago.
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:02.160
This was probably in the just after COVID time, and there was a broken spoke, and it was making that noise.
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:03.759
So my head was like, Oh, okay.
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:05.039
It's another one with a broken spoke.
00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:06.799
I got all these broken spokes.
00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:08.960
They need to get their wheels changed.
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:15.519
Um, a final one on the fleet management, mostly because I'm I'm interested as a bike, bike nerd.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:21.680
But um you mentioned that the they have the touch points from from the guardians, but do you guys have a bit of a maintenance schedule?
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:22.960
Does that happen a bit through the winter?
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:24.240
You bring them into the factory.
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:25.200
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:32.559
We have four warehouses, and the bikes are bought proactively bought into the warehouse to have a full you know reconditioning.
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:37.359
So we're extending the life of our bikes from five to seven or eight years.
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:37.599
Okay.
00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:40.000
And that's because of this proactive maintenance program.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:42.240
So we don't sort of wait for issues to happen.
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:53.359
It's very much like a regular and rigorous proactive program that brings the bikes in, reconditions them, and just make sure that you know we're preempting any issues before they before they happen.
00:25:53.599 --> 00:26:06.160
Yeah, and I know these got these are shared bikes, but I've always said with bikes themselves is they are um fascinatingly simple in that like that you can just but you could make one last forever, really, because you could just keep changing the parts on it.
00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:06.799
Exactly.
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:10.799
That's we call them a Lego, I mean, in layman terms, a Lego bike.
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:12.480
You know, they're completely modular.
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:23.200
And we also do things, for example, you know, as I mentioned earlier, we've got a real focus on sustainability, so zero emission operations and extending the life of the bikes is really important to us.
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:23.839
Absolutely.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:30.799
And so we've got you know, teams who, for example, instead of replacing the seat, if there's a rip, we'll we'll repair it.
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:31.759
Things like that.
00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:36.880
And that's the lower cost way of doing it, but it's also the more sustainable way of doing it.
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:39.920
Slightly higher effort, but lower cost, more sustainable, which is great.
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:40.880
Exactly, exactly.
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:43.039
And that's because we're creating a business for the long term.
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:46.640
We, you know, it's not we don't just have a sort of sprint in mind.
00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:54.079
We really want to create a business that is here and sustainably, environmentally sustainable and financially sustainable as well.
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:55.279
Yeah, no, super.
00:26:55.680 --> 00:27:12.960
Um just moving on a little bit, and your role is more focused around um policy um and how uh I guess how how you're fitting into all of the boroughs of London and things that have been talked about a lot of you know, it's like however many boroughs there are, different cities in inside a city and all those things.
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:16.240
What does that landscape look like for forests?
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:19.519
What does that look like in um uh in human forests?
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.319
What's it look like for micromobility in general?
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:26.160
Is that quite is it constant conversations with each borough and all of those things?
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.559
Yeah, well you put the nail on the head there.
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:30.960
Um so there's 33 boroughs in London.
00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:31.759
Yeah.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.720
Um we, as I mentioned, started in two.
00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:40.240
We're now in 20, so we have the biggest operating area of any London operator.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:44.960
Um, and that has been through hard work, yeah.
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:46.799
Picking them off one by one.
00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:52.799
Um, in the sense of, as you touched on, each borough runs its own procurement process.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.400
So the scooter, e-scooter trial works a little bit differently.
00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:57.759
It's all run by TFL.
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:04.079
Boroughs um sort of delegate their authority to TFL to run that on their behalf.
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:11.440
With the bikes, it's the complete opposite in the sense of each borough has its own set of rules.
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:18.079
Um and that may mean, and that covers you know different SLAs and different approaches to parking.
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:25.519
And that does make it a little bit complicated for the user because the user doesn't typically know when they've crossed borough boundaries.
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:39.359
So in some boroughs, there'll be a combination of mandatory parking with more free floating, so you can park you know responsibly um outside of a bay, you know, if you're in a certain area and in and some you can't.
00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:44.720
Whereas in the neighbouring borough, you might have fully mandatory parking in a bay.
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:50.160
Uh so that does create a little bit of confusion and inertia around, am I doing the right thing?
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:54.400
And people generally they are the people are good, they want to do the right thing.
00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:54.640
Yeah.
00:28:54.880 --> 00:29:00.799
And we find sometimes if one bike is parked somewhere, people will think, oh, well, that's safe, I'll park there.
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:11.599
Um and particularly, it kind of comes back to this problem that we just don't have the parking infrastructure to support the demand for bikes currently.
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:18.240
The boroughs have been doing a really great job in adding parking infrastructure, but we just need to sort of keep keep going.
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:25.359
And that does require some tricky conversations, you know, with residents who think I don't want to lose my parking spaces.
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:32.640
But at the same time, they don't like you know the overfilling parking spaces or they don't like the bike bikes not parked responsibly.
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:32.880
Yeah.
00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:38.160
And people do want to do the right thing, but they need to have the space to be able to do so.
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:38.960
Yeah, definitely.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:40.240
Yeah, it's super challenging.
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:44.880
I mean, London, like a lot of European cities, isn't a place that's blessed with spare space.
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:47.039
So uh always a challenge.
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:56.480
Whether you're just parking something responsibly, but on a street corner, there's you know, they these aren't big, big, wide open spaces like in the US or in the Middle East or somewhere.
00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:58.640
So it does find that like tricky.
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:02.720
It is tricky and it has to be sort of an evolution rather than a revolution.
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:14.640
But yeah, when we're thinking back to sort of some difficult decisions around transport, their train line to go into Waterloo, a lot of houses had to be demolished to make space for that train line.
00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:20.079
And that was obviously a very, very difficult conversation to have with those with those homeowners.
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:28.480
But the public amenity that's been created by the train lines into Waterloo ultimately does, you know, serve Londoners.
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:29.200
Yeah.
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:38.160
So we'll, you know, we we're sort of having to sort of have some of those conversations about about parking spaces because there's a little bit of a NIMBY, you know, NIMBY mindset.
00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:42.880
But the boroughs, so just sort of back to the boroughs, it will there's some new legislation.
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:55.119
Um, the English Devolution Bill, which came, um, became an act quite recently, and that will allow TFL to regulate bike share in the same way that it's been able to regulate scooters.
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:55.519
Okay.
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:59.039
And that will mean that it comes under one framework in London.
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:04.640
And that will be, you know, great for users in the sense that it will be a uniform approach.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:15.839
Um, borough boundaries will no longer matter, um, and also great for for operators because it creates more certainty around what that sort of licensing framework and requirements look like.
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:16.160
Yeah.
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:21.599
So we won't have the zip car type scenarios of suddenly the license changes and the business model's broken, I guess.
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:22.079
Exactly.
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:30.319
A lot of these are all programs in any kind of like rental, is you know, it becomes super the the margins are super sensitive to things like that.
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:36.000
So yeah, I definitely get you know you guys invest in an area, rule changes, and all of a sudden you're like, actually, this doesn't fit the model.
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:44.000
And it's really natural, of course, for the regulation to take a while to catch up because this is remains in a nascent industry.
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:44.480
Yeah.
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:49.279
Um, it's been the sort of five years that it's suddenly supercharged.
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:50.079
So yeah, it takes.
00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:51.680
I was thinking that this morning, actually.
00:31:51.759 --> 00:32:01.599
I was just walking to the studio and I thought, oh, I can't really actually, as I was crossing the road and I was like, oh yeah, it's actually it was a human forest bike and uh someone on their own bike and then a different sharp.
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:07.119
I was like, oh, I I can't remember London without having bike share bikes, but it's not actually that long ago.
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:12.799
When you think like the the tube is a hundred and something, you know, nearly 150 years old.
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:14.400
Yeah, it's actually not been that long.
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:16.400
It's still finding its finding its feet.
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:18.000
Yeah, and also, I mean, it's a good point.
00:32:18.079 --> 00:32:23.839
You know, the tube's 150 years old, and bike shear helps to alleviate a little bit of pressure on the tube.
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:31.839
Yeah, and particularly on tube strike days, those days, the ridership um, you know, and bike shear does actually play a really important role.
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:32.880
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:35.440
Oh, just you know, such a fascinating change.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:40.400
And I suppose that things happen so quickly, but we could we really only think in like such short time frames.
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:44.240
Hey, bike's been around for ages, but actually, everybody's still learning and figuring stuff out.
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:45.440
It's uh super exciting.
00:32:46.319 --> 00:33:04.400
Um, and I also I guess on that note as well, one of the things that we discussed before and kind of the pre-calls about the Road Traffic Act and kind of how um yeah, that's a very like a lot of these things, very, very old, wasn't envisaged, well, wasn't created in envisaging a kind of shared bike or shared micro-mobility solution.
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:11.200
So tell us a bit about kind of the the background of that, where it where it fits, and maybe some of the challenges that that's kind of changed or causing as well.
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:41.519
Yeah, so um there's a there is a gap in terms of um rider liability insurance, a sort of third-party insurance, um, whereby those you know, riders of forest bikes, um, if they you know contravene the terms and conditions or you know, a number of sort of other exclusions mandated by the user uh by the by the insurer, then anybody sort of a victim of that um that rider is not covered by insurance.
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:45.440
So there's a a gap in cover um for the public.
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:54.799
So that's something that we're really wanting to work with the insurance um industry on and try and find solutions, which hopefully the licensing framework does sort of contemplate.
00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:05.039
The Road Traffic Act, um, without getting too technical on it, um if if you've got a vehicle as part of the Road Traffic Act, there is strict liability.
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:16.000
So that means that if someone um is a victim, it doesn't matter if the perpetrator of that or was doing something illegal, they will always pay out.
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:16.400
Right.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:21.199
Whereas at the moment, bike share or bikes um do not fall within that category.
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:21.840
I see.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.599
So that that's the subtlety of it.
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:28.559
So if I'm speeding in my car and I crash and hit, that doesn't invalidate my insurance.
00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:30.000
The insurance still has to pay.
00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:32.159
I separately can get in trouble for doing whatever.
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:34.159
Exactly, and that's a criminal offense.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:40.639
But in this scenario, you break the terms and conditions, that invalidates the insurance, and therefore everybody loses in that.
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:41.519
Exactly.
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:46.000
And it's a really delicate balance in the sense that you know, bikes aren't cars.
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:46.480
Yeah.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:57.280
Um, so we need to sort of as an industry think how this evolves to protect the public, but in a way that doesn't hold people back from wanting to bike.
00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:04.159
And when we're talking about, you know, we bikes, we're not just talking about bike share, we're talking about, you know, regular e-bikes, private e-bikes.
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:13.039
And that's once you sort of start going down that line of just looking at bike share, you sort of open up the can of worms of all this different types of bikes.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:28.159
Um, and that's you know, we want to encourage bike usage, as we mentioned about the MES targets, and to help achieve those, we need bike share to be seen as something positive and not overly burdensome from an insurance perspective for the rider.
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:28.559
Yeah.
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:36.639
So that's something that, yeah, is a sort of a an area that a nuanced area that needs, you know, support and collaboration from a number of parties.
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:50.800
Yeah, and I guess the challenge a little bit around um the business model that we mentioned earlier is it's it's fine to be able to go, well, oh yeah, we could put insurance in place for that, but it doubles the cost of insurance, which then suddenly makes the cost of the bikes to the to the user um prohibitive.
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:55.280
You still want to make the balance, make sure everybody's protected but get the balance right.
00:35:55.519 --> 00:36:03.199
Yeah, and it's still a relatively nascent industry, as I mentioned, and we need to keep innovating in technology and safety and the hardware.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:06.079
Um, and that also requires investment too.
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:09.519
So um it's yeah, it's a delicate balance.
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:11.599
Yeah, no, so it's super interesting.
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:15.280
Um, it'd be interesting to see how that that progresses over time.
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:25.440
Um just kind of um finishing up, kind of final topic I wanted to cover, which was just thinking about the kind of future of micromobility and just thinking about how uh it might evolve as an industry.
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:35.440
Like we say, it's it's very new uh in in real terms, yeah, and feels like it's come a long way in that time to sort of become a regular but part of people's people's lives in in lots of senses.
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:41.280
Um what are your thoughts, kind of like medium, long-term, pick pick your time frame, but you know, but how do you see it evolving?
00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:46.480
I guess specifically here in London, but let's be saying that might that that's also reflective of other European cities.
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:54.079
Yeah, no, we're I mean we're really excited by the continued opportunity in London to transform the way people are moving.
00:36:54.320 --> 00:37:04.400
We we feel like we are pushing on an open door in the sense that you know bike share and biking in particular is just becoming it's prolific in its usage now.
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:15.199
Um so if we can continue that, continue to invest in you know cycle ways, which the you know, London's been doing a you know tremendous job and increasing that that side of the infrastructure.
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:19.440
But what we really need to do is you know think about that curbside usage.
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:33.760
And I do feel like a complete stuck record, but we need to, you know, think about the way that public space is allocated in a way that one helps us achieve those you know targets for active travel and the demand.
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:44.639
So if we can, because then we can sort of move remote, we can stop talking about that you know, divide of the public space, not with bikes being in the wrong place.
00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:49.840
And we can kind of move that conversation on if we have the the parking infrastructure.
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:53.280
It can stop becoming about you know that issue.
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:59.119
Yeah, fight fighting over the curbside and actually having it just as a part of in the same way as you'd have a bus stop.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.599
You go, well, we've this is the space we make for a bus stop.
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:05.840
You go, well, this is the place we m we space we make at the right places for that.
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:06.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:21.360
We can move the conversation on if we you know have the infrastructure, not just the you know, the the actual cycle ways, but the parking infrastructure, it become can become biking become a can become a less divisive topic again.
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:22.320
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:25.760
And how about kind of the the use of technology more more widely?
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:30.400
Um, thinking about the the favorite topic comes up on every podcast about AI and and these things.
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:40.559
Obviously, you guys are in you know, to a certain extent, a relatively kind of like physical industry, there's physical things and people moving from A to B, but also a really strong technology wrapper.
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:44.719
So is that something that you're seeing is gonna help help predict trends, helping us.
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:45.679
Yeah, absolutely.
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:50.719
It really helps us to um forecast the amount of operational resource we're going to need.
00:38:50.800 --> 00:39:01.440
So you can look at you know the weather, you can look at like historical usage from those days, um, and then and then predict so that and that helps us really with our service levels again.
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:07.119
So if we're using we're using AI to predict effectively, we can make sure that we're delivering a really good service.
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:13.440
Yeah, and I guess it ultimately comes down to utilization, it's the favorite like car car rental number.
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:25.119
But it's like you want to make sure that you've got as many of the bikes in the right place at the right time to increase and to maximize their utilization, and any edge or advantage you can have in that is just going to make the service better.
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:32.800
You want to be able to get more people on the bikes without having to put more bikes on the road or to put more bikes on, but get exponential usage across the bike.
00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:42.639
And that that goes to the availability of bikes, i.e., you know, the battery needs to be full, it needs to have had the maintenance, you know, if a pedals come off, it needs to have been fixed.
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:58.079
And you know, AI can help us with that by opt-massively optimizing the routes that the guardians go on, yeah, the job tasks, um, getting to the most important tasks first, um, and as well um working out, you know, where where best to put the bikes.
00:39:58.320 --> 00:39:58.960
Yeah, sweet.
00:39:59.440 --> 00:39:59.920
Awesome.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:01.679
Um, Caroline, thanks so much for coming on.
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:02.960
I know you're super busy as well.
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:04.639
So thank you for making the time.
00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:06.000
It's been uh been really interesting.
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:11.360
Nice to have a slight change of pace from the car world into the adjacent uh micromobility world.
00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:17.840
But so like super um super fascinating to see how those align and uh you know car ownership and car sharing and those things.
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:21.760
Absolutely, yeah.
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:25.599
I was thinking that when you were saying about you know getting rid of all the cars in London.
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:30.960
I've seen there's probably quite a lot of uh car lovers on on the are listening to the I may not be very popular.
00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:34.719
I think it's that bit, but that's why I would say so, especially the the second car usage.
00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:36.880
Like it's it's the efficiency of the cars.
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:40.079
Yeah, it's like actually, we know people will still want cars.
00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:45.280
No one's ever said people don't want them, but it's actually like can we just make the better use of them?
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:48.639
Have a have one, use other other bits, share some.
00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:52.000
It's definitely a mode people are getting their heads around.
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:54.320
So yeah, that's it's super uh super interesting.
00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:57.679
Uh thanks everybody for for listening to the end of this uh this episode.
00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:05.760
Uh check out all of our other episodes on uh Spotify, Apple, uh, Amazon, um, and also across YouTube.
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:10.159
Uh so loads of episodes there if you enjoyed this one, and also please like and subscribe.
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:18.559
Uh, also a reminder just to set a placeholder in your diary 18th of November is our Auto Future Cast Live uh Aeon's headquarters.
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:21.599
Um, more details about that coming soon as well.
00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:24.239
Um, so yeah, thanks again, and we'll catch you next time.
00:00:09.839 --> 00:00:18.800
Welcome to the latest episode of the Auto Future Cast with me, Chris Kirby, in association with professional services company Aeon, Tomorrow's Journey and Generational.
00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:21.920
Today we're swapping four wheels for two wheels.
00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:24.960
We're joined by Caroline Seatum from Hume Forest.
00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:26.079
Caroline, welcome.
00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:31.679
In today's session, we're going to cover some real ground actually, because we don't talk loads about micro-mobility.
00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:43.439
So we're going to cover a bit of the background of micromobility, what some of the trends are, what some of the challenges we've got kind of facing the industry, particularly here in London, and think then about what the outlook might look like.
00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:45.439
So a lot of ground to cover.
00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:48.320
But first of all, Caroline, just give us a little bit of uh your background.
00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:53.759
Always ask the guests just to set the scene of kind of your background and the background of human forest as well.
00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:54.719
Yeah, absolutely.
00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:57.200
Chris, thanks so much for having me on today.
00:00:57.520 --> 00:00:59.200
I'm my name's Caroline Seaton.
00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:01.679
I'm a co-founder and the CLO of Forest.
00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:11.760
We founded Forest six years ago now to solve a solve a what we found is a gap in the market for micro-mobility solutions.
00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:20.719
We thought there were a couple of operators already in in London, but for us, we thought there was a need for something more sustainable and also affordable.
00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:31.920
We found a forest on the premise of 10 minutes free daily in a way to just grow the pie of, you know, grow market share for cycling and in particular shared cycling.
00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:33.519
And that really worked.
00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:37.760
That 10 Minutes Free was able to do that.
00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:41.280
So now here we are in 20 London boroughs.
00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:46.079
And we started off in two and um three million trips last month.
00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:50.640
Exciting news coming up from Auto Future Cast uh in November on the 18th.
00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:58.159
Uh, we're going to be holding an event in London, Auto Future Cast Live, uh Aeon's Offices, uh just by Liverpool Street Station.
00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:05.680
Um more details to come, so uh stay tuned, uh, check out the socials, uh, listen to future episodes to uh to get more details.
00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:08.800
So now here we are in 20 London boroughs.
00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:10.400
And we started off in two.
00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:13.360
Yeah, and um three million trips last month.
00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:14.960
Yeah, three million trips last month.
00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:15.360
Fantastic.
00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:28.000
I mean, you definitely really see that change in in London for someone who's been travelling into London for business for 10 years or so, of like just how many people are on kind of shared uh mobility and and shared bikes primarily in in London.
00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:38.560
But what was the just the micro-mobility journey's been really interesting one for me, kind of being slightly parallel to it, adjacent to it, but like not in it, of kind of seeing how it transitioned.
00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:42.560
There was a lot of stuff, I guess, pre-COVID, it was starting to come into the market.
00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:48.719
Um, then COVID kind of changed it in a bad way, maybe temporarily, and then in into a good way.
00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:54.319
Uh, there was a kind of whole hype around scooters, which appears to have kind of come and gone, particularly from the kind of London, London world.
00:02:54.479 --> 00:03:00.639
So, uh, how did you guys find that that sort of journey through the kind of micromobility timeline?
00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:01.280
I suppose.
00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:07.199
Yeah, I mean, that's you would have, yeah, the the way that people move around London has completely changed.
00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:14.719
And Dockless bikes, in particular, you know, operators like Forrest have really had a huge uptick in usage.
00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:23.280
You're so right, during COVID, we had we had just launched a trial pre-COVID and with with two boroughs.
00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:38.879
And so we were quite lucky in the sense that we weren't on the we were able to pause our operation during COVID and relaunch um halfway through COVID at the point where people were starting to move around away again, but we're looking for COVID-safe ways to do so.
00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:43.360
And what we really see is things like COVID or the tube strike or a heat wave.
00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:52.800
These are points when people try new things, and we've continued to see numbers, ridership really grow based on those sort of one-off days.
00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:57.120
But the great thing is that people do end up sustaining that behavior.
00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:03.439
So they try something for the first time, they do something different on these sort of black swan, slightly black swan events.
00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:06.400
Uh, but then it does trigger a behavioral change.
00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:17.600
And so we've had these sort of compounded, that sort of ridership has been compounded, particularly over the heat waves over this last, you know, this omnipresent heat wave.
00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:28.800
Um, and so we do just continue to to people to to change their usage because often bike share or or biking is the quickest way, most convenient way to get around.
00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:35.279
When you see the four options, you know, in Google Maps or City Mapper or whatever platform you use, cycling is often the quickest.
00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:39.439
And it's been a natural air conditioner as well for people in recent weeks.
00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:40.560
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:42.720
I think that's it's a super interesting one, isn't it?
00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:51.360
Because I think that yeah, as soon as you're getting people who are finding a reason to break their habits, you say like avoiding the tube, avoiding the tube for a long time.
00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:59.680
I think like the first year or so after we were moving in COVID, I was I basically either walked or cycled everywhere because we're going like just let's let's not not go on the tube.
00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:01.920
No one wants to go on the tube when it's hot like this.
00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:18.480
I did this morning actually, but only uh but not partly because it was a bit bit further than uh than normal, but definitely seeing sort of people taking up the routes, and like we say we the the difference in when you're crossing the street now in London and you just like first of all the traffic lights, you're seeing 50 people on a on a shared bike.
00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:27.439
And I guess before the sharing part of it, cycling was more difficult because you had to have your own bike, you had to lock it somewhere, store it somewhere, you had to bring it into London if you were commuting.
00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:31.439
So it's definitely a thing that's like unlocked cycling for a lot of people in that community.
00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:33.519
Definitely makes it more accessible.
00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:41.439
We see sort of two types of users people who already have their own bike but may complement their usage with using a forest bike.
00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:59.759
And if they're not planning to come home, they're like they're gonna be hot drinking that evening, or they're not quite sure how they're getting back, or so they'll they'll use they'll use the shared option, or it's people, as you say, who you know, the financial um investment of purchasing a bike is quite is great.
00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:01.920
Um, so it makes it more accessible, yeah.
00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.040
And and without the risk too, with the with the locking it's yeah, exactly.
00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.279
Yeah, like the storing of bikes and and all of that stuff.
00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:10.480
I mean, I'm a keen cyclist in uh recreational sense.
00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:11.439
Um, and that's the thing.
00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:21.279
I would never bring my bike either of either of my many bikes uh into London because you just like couldn't, unless you could store them like inside, you don't want to be locking anything outside.
00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:23.360
What if it's raining, like all of those things?
00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:26.240
It gives you some real optionality, but still be able to use it.
00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:29.600
And shared bikes have really created a new type of cyclist.
00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:49.360
So we sort of had the lycroclad cyclists or or you know the childhood cyclists, and now we've got this huge cohort of people like you and I wearing regular clothes, coming into work with our backpacks, and this whole yeah, as you say, the way that when you pull up at the lights, there's this new type of new type of cyclist.
00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:50.560
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:54.319
It's a new uh new hazard to watch out for for pedestrians as well.
00:06:54.800 --> 00:07:08.959
Yes, well, that is definitely something that we're education, education and technology to try and you know influence that behaviour and and ensure that the bike sharers work for both the users and the non-users.
00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:23.759
Yeah, and do you find that like safety is a um can be a bit of an issue where you've got people who are new to it, and I don't mean like new to riding a bike, but I always think that like when when I cycle in London, I'm I'm I don't know, probably cycle three or four hundred kilometres a week at home.
00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:26.319
I'm used to riding on the road, I'm used to riding with cars around me.
00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:29.279
Do you do you find there's kind of safety as for people getting their head around?
00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:30.240
How do you guys tackle that?
00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:32.319
I'm getting on the bike in London for the first time.
00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:35.199
Yeah, I know how to ride a bike, but I've never really ridden on the road.
00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:38.879
Is that a sort of a bit of either a barrier or something that you you guys are concerned about?
00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:39.839
Yeah, absolutely.
00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:45.920
Like the first-time user when they first create an account is something we've got you know, special steps involved for them.
00:07:46.000 --> 00:08:00.240
So there's mandatory sort of an education three-step process where they take a small test to either either like on the highway code, but also on you know, just the sort of basic common sense of familiarising yourself with a bike.
00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:06.000
Um, and then we also have go slow mode, um, which is reduced acceleration for those that are new.
00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:06.240
Okay.
00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:08.079
Go slowed or beginner mode.
00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:11.279
Um as we as we call it.
00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:14.720
So uh and then it's again just the training that we do.
00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:22.079
We um partner with a lot of the London boroughs that we're in to facilitate training um on our e-bikes, yeah.
00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:27.040
Just to give people that option um to familiarize themselves and get comfortable.
00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:27.439
Yeah.
00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:29.600
Yeah, it's probably a bit of a balancing act as well.
00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:33.600
You've got that element where you go, oh, there's a you know, someone's oh, yeah, I'll jump on and give it a go.
00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:41.200
And you want to make sure that they're fully prepared, but probably also a group of people who would like to try it but are worried about it, I guess.
00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:43.039
So the the education goes both ways.
00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:50.720
You want to make sure a new user is safe, but you also want to encourage potential users to feel like it's safe and to feel confident in doing it.
00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:59.279
And one of the things about Forest as well, our customer service team is always available on the end of the phone, and we do actually see that that's a service that's utilized all the time.
00:08:59.440 --> 00:08:59.679
Yeah.
00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:10.799
Where people can troubleshoot on the spot, they can ask questions, um, and that breaks down some of the barriers or kind of friction points for new users who may be feeling more uncomfortable.
00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:11.200
Yeah.
00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:14.159
And how how have you seen kind of to that point?
00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:16.000
How have you seen the kind of usership develop?
00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:22.720
I know you said it's grown and it it has little jumps when uh when it's hot or when there's there's things happening.
00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:27.120
Um but how how have you seen that kind of I guess growth of usership and then also retention?
00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:30.720
Do you see people using it for a bit and not using it as a seasonality?
00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:31.759
Just tell us a bit about that.
00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:32.879
I'm just I'm fascinated to see that.
00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:34.320
Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it?
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:38.159
I mean, to my background, I was new to micromobility.
00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:44.320
Um I work with two other co-founders, Augustine Gilastasi, who is ex-Cabify.
00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:44.559
Right.
00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:53.679
And Cabify, if you don't know, is sort of the Uber, casually the Uber of um Latin America and and in Spain, so sort of the Spanish-speaking world.
00:09:53.759 --> 00:10:00.639
So he had a lot of experience in micromobility through Cabify in a previous company um called Movo.
00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:09.840
So he had a, and when I first sort of talked to him about forest in London, I said, oh my gosh, but it rains so much here, it's so cold.
00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:16.240
You know, this is going to be a two-speed company, you know, summer and and then that sort of protracted winter.
00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:21.519
And the winters seem to have got a little bit shorter, but um, but we don't see that massive drop-off.
00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:25.120
And I think particularly in the UK, it's quite a dry rain.
00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:25.440
Yeah.
00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:32.159
Um, and so we see around a 30% drop-off um in those winter, though, for those winter months.
00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:37.519
Although we have had some exceptionally high peaks um over this heat wave this summer.
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:44.879
So it will be interesting that 30% might be a, you know, will probably grow based on the lofty heights that we've had.
00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:47.440
You know, we had 10,000 new users the other day.
00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:47.759
Wow.
00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:50.080
Three million trips, as I mentioned in July.
00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:55.360
So the number we're continuing to break records um in terms of ridership and usage.
00:10:55.679 --> 00:11:02.799
Yeah, and and do you see people in terms of those the the 10,000 new users, what's the sort of stickiness of them?
00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:07.600
Do they do you find this kind of different groups, the ones that would be like, oh cool, okay, right.
00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:15.919
I'm using this and now I'm using it on my commute five, four, three days a week, whatever, or the casual user, maybe some people use it for a bit and drop off.
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:17.679
How's the how does that work?
00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:22.559
Yeah, no, no, it's um it it definitely varies depending on the cohort and the month that they join.
00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:22.799
Yeah.
00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:29.679
So for example, you know, if they if we're looking at the July cohort, within that will be a number of tourists.
00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:32.480
So then that they obviously leave and then that drops off.
00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:37.759
So we see about 70 to 80 percent of those users continue to take a trip.
00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.679
And we look at, you know, do they take a trip in the next month or two months later?
00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:54.080
Um and but what we've really noticed is as the fleet has grown, so we've got more bikes, a greater density of bikes, the number of trips per user definitely increases.
00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:56.399
Okay, as does the number of trips per bike.
00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:56.639
Yeah.
00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:11.679
So what that kind of is showing us is that if you've got a density of parking spaces and bikes, people can rely on there what there being one available, rely on walking out of your office or a cafe or a restaurant and knowing that you can get a bike.
00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:12.879
So opening that app.
00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:21.919
And then that's really quite a virtuous cycle in the sense of more trips, you know, greater utilization of the space on the on the curbside space.
00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:27.759
That's a huge topic in London, is how do we allocate space in a way that reflects demand?
00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:28.320
Yeah.
00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:33.679
And what we are really trying to push for at Forrest is that we create more parking base.
00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:44.159
Um now, as I've mentioned, you know, three million trips last month, two million trips now taken, taken on bikes per day across London.
00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:46.799
And those are TFL, TFL figures.
00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:49.440
And car ownership is declining.
00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:55.039
So we want the public space to sort of reflect the changes that are taking place within consumer behavior.
00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:57.759
To support it rather than be sort of impacted by a lot of people.
00:12:58.000 --> 00:12:58.559
Yeah, exactly.
00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:03.759
Because we need to, you know, ride or London is commuting behaviour is changing.
00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:11.519
We've got declining applications for driver's license, as I just mentioned, declining car ownership.
00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:23.039
And so as those that changes, we need to think about how space is allocated in a way that reflects this new dynamic, which is increased bike bike usage.
00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:23.440
Yeah.
00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:30.000
And as you say, the the often the more bikes that are made available increases the usage at as well.
00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:31.759
So there's a it's not a case of.
00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:44.879
So that's pushing in the right direction in terms of you know the mayor's transport strategy, you know, 80% of trips to be on you know, walking and bikes, you know, active travel by 2030.
00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:48.080
You know, that's something that's really important, get it to reach that 80%.
00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:52.159
And bike share can be a really you know fundamental part of that.
00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:53.440
Yeah, and it's really interesting.
00:13:53.519 --> 00:14:04.720
I mean, we want to talk a bit about the the transport mix in in London, but I've I've always said when we talk about things like micro-mobility or car sharing, other things in London, it is quite reflective of like major European cities.
00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:12.320
I guess the model is quite uh uh quite repeatable in that in that sort of the the things that we can see here are repeatable across across Europe.
00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:15.279
Uh how do you guys see this kind of impacting the mix?
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:25.840
So you mentioned about declining car ownership uh in London, which I think you know definitely is a known fact within the auto side of um our podcast listener group.
00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:31.919
Um do you see this being part of a wider mix and wider change of of how people travel?
00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:36.720
Is it going to be the key component that people are gonna switch from cars to these kind of active travel modes?
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:39.039
How do you guys kind of fit fit that in?
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:42.000
What's your your thoughts on structuring it?
00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:46.879
Yeah, what's really important, we think, is all transport modes working together.
00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:51.279
So that multimodal integrated approach to transport in London.
00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:53.039
And what does that look like?
00:14:53.200 --> 00:15:02.320
That means you know, parking bays, outside train stations, tube stations, it also needs um car sharing as well.
00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:10.799
It's really sad to see Zipcar leave the UK because of the cost of the licenses, um, and it became no longer economically viable.
00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:25.600
And if we want to support, you know, continued declining car ownership, rising active travel, it needs to be complemented, you know, with other with other modes and other services so that we can do all the trips that you know Londoners need to.
00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:35.279
So if it's you know you're moving house or you're taking kids to school, you, or you're doing a you know, big grocery shop and you need a car, then you've got that shared car to use.
00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:37.840
So you've got to look at it in the whole picture.
00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:44.320
But what we really look at and which we think is so important is the number of trips per bike per day.
00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:44.559
Yeah.
00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:53.519
And that's really, you know, that is a you know, a KPI which we think justifies the bike on the on the curbside.
00:15:53.840 --> 00:16:00.559
And we can, you know, look at that to think, you know, there's one car sitting there that may be stationary for you know for three days.
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:04.879
That one car car parking space could take 10 bikes.
00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:13.919
And the some of the bikes um also we've done an average of 10 trips per bike um in July in some boroughs.
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:21.600
So that means that you could be doing, you know, literally very simple mass, 100 trips per parking bay per day.
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:27.200
Yeah, and if that bike, that bike car's not moving for two, three days, that's 300 trips.
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:27.600
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:37.360
So it's really important to kind of recalibrate the way that we're thinking about that space to maximize, you know, efficiency and and trip generation.
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:37.759
Yeah.
00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:43.679
And does that come into thinking a bit about the car sharing example, like thinking about second cars?
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:52.639
Because I think the second car ownership is that key bit I've always thought of like, okay, main family car, kind of important, you have it there, case of emergencies, all those things.
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:55.440
But a lot of households still have second cars.
00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:00.399
And if you could in removing that, okay, you could remove that for your commute.
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.440
But then what happens when you need to leave town in your second car?
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:06.160
Well, that's when you need a zip car type kind of shared service.
00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:06.480
Yeah.
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:10.960
Um, but is that kind of a thing you're you're thinking about, that kind of second car at home in London?
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:12.160
Yeah, absolutely.
00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:18.079
I mean, there's over 600,000 families or or households rather with with two cars.
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:18.559
Yeah.
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:36.640
And if you could just quite simply, you know, eliminate the second car or you know, parking spaces for that second car, you know, some households, you know, naturally may need second cars for specific reasons, but across the board, you know, that's 1.8 million parking.
00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:50.079
You know, it's just it's phenomenal the number of um trips that could be generated and and bike spaces that could be generated just from removing or or penalizing the second car in a way that does just reduce that a little bit.
00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:56.160
But as you say, kind of unlocking the potential of it does require support from some of the other modes as well.
00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:03.440
So say if you're going to give up your second car, you might want the comfort that you could hire a zip car or equivalent car share on the one time a week that you need it.
00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:11.839
But at the minute you're keeping your second car for the one time a week you need it, which is then holding up a bay that could be, you know, the one zip car could serve a street of people.
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:15.119
The second car, the other bays can get made available for other modes.
00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:15.680
Exactly.
00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:30.079
And it's so it's that holistic look at all the different shared modes, you know, integrating with the traditional transport options, you know, train stations, tube stations, and creating a transport system that works for all use cases.
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:31.359
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:44.480
Um and on just thinking about the it's kind of touching a bit on the transport mix, but just I'm interested in a little bit in kind of the fleet management element of it and kind of how how do you make sure the bikes are in the right place, that they've got the right charge, or all of those things.
00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:46.880
I mean, I imagine that's like a whole episode on its own, right?
00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:50.160
We need some diagrams and some other things, but just in a in a in a nutshell.
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:51.359
It's really interesting.
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:57.200
So a rainy day or a rainy morning wreaks havoc.
00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:00.960
Because what we see is that people do trips there and back.
00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:05.279
So the vast majority of people will take you know a return trip on a forest bike.
00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:14.319
Um, so if they end up taking the tube one way and then they're looking for the bike to come back, you know, the bike so the users very much put the bikes often in the right place.
00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:14.640
Okay.
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:15.440
You know, naturally.
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:17.359
Obviously, we need to without disturbances.
00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:20.640
If you were just running like a normal, undisturbed thing, they they naturally.
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:36.319
So all going to plan, the users do, and we end up having to relocate bikes, you know, that have been left somewhere, you know, in the wrong place, or there's been an oversupply, perhaps at um, you know, a one-off event like a festival or you know, the London Marathon or things like that.
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:44.319
And then we end up, and sometimes when we're, you know, parking baits are too full, we will, you know, have one of our electric vans come in and remove bikes.
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:52.079
So we do definitely tinker around the edges and make sure that we're you know fine-tuning the fleet to be in the right place at the right time.
00:19:52.319 --> 00:20:00.640
But London does move in a way that, you know, as you say, without disturbances, the bikes can be positioned for where the demand lays.
00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:03.519
Um, but we do have a huge guardian team.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:14.079
Um, so these we call them forest guardians, and they're involved, um, they tidy the bikes, they do very like basic, you know, maintenance, the checking, basic safety checks.
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:23.039
And then we also have you know very quick maintenance tasks that they can do on street um that don't require us to take the bike back to the warehouse.
00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:36.000
Um and those work really that works really well because it means that the bikes have a touch point almost every 24 hours just to sort of check in, swap the battery if needed, um, check on you know those key safety touch points.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:37.759
Um and that works really well.
00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:52.400
But forest has built its own operations app, and that's really where we think a lot of the value in Forest lies, both for cities um and for the company itself, because we can really track and measure all we do in operations.
00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:59.519
So we can proactively come to bikes to you know check maintenance, you know, check on the maintenance front and also swapping out batteries.
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:07.279
And then we can also see you know, allocate tasks to the guardians in the most um efficient way in terms of like route management.
00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:16.319
So you can see that you can plot their routes in a way that maximizes the time spent and reduces sort of the miles between um between those jobs.
00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:17.039
Yeah, great.
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:24.400
So it's kind of it's a that sort of classic uh kind of combination of fleet management and deliver for vehicle delivery type type technology.
00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:25.119
Exactly.
00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:40.960
And that's where we can really deliver on those SLAs that we have to the boroughs and make sure that we're running the fleet in the best possible way, and both for you know, for users in terms of that availability, um, and also ensuring that the bike's in really good condition.
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:41.759
Yeah, okay.
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:53.680
And and in terms of um one of the things that I probably less talked about now, but one of the big sort of micromobility um topics was always things like vandalism and you know, kind of uh rogue behaviour.
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.799
Is that a thing you you obviously must see some of it?
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.359
Is it a thing that's growing, declining?
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.279
What's that that look like in a kind of typical London setup?
00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:09.440
I mean, I think London has, you know, a long memory and quite rightly of those sort of very early days of bike share.
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:22.000
Because Offo and Mo Bike, and there's, you know, there's still these stock pictures in the media of, you know, an off o bike up a tree, or and the difference there was that they weren't actually in app locking systems.
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:23.839
So they were physical locks.
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:27.680
And so you'd have people just cut the lock and away they go.
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:34.720
And because they weren't actually legitimately on a hire, they would act in a way that there was zero accountability.
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:39.119
That now has changed thanks to you know really strong technology.
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:41.359
And now everything is done via the app.
00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:55.759
So you can't, for those who you know haven't used a forest bike before, it's all you you know, you scan the bike with your with your phone, it then registers the bike, you push unlock, it attaches that trip higher to your account.
00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:58.400
And then to lock it again, you do so via the app.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:02.559
And so that means that we've really minimized you know the vandalism.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:07.839
Um, I think hacking has been an issue for some of the operators in the industry.
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:11.839
Fortunately, that hasn't been something that we have faced.
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:16.160
The technology has been able to, you know, prevent that from happening.
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:25.119
So that's where you do start to see a bit of antisocial behaviour creep in again in this sort of new wave of micromobility, um, is is due to hacking.
00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:32.240
But in general, that isn't something that foresters, you know, there's obviously a few, you get a few issues and you just can't stamp those out.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:33.839
But in general, it's not a wise problem.
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:39.119
It's not the same thing as they say at the start, it was people, kids were basically going, Do you know what would be really fun?
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:42.559
Why don't we just like cut the lock on this bike and throw it up a tree and it's a thing?
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.119
Whereas now it's sort of become a bit too hard to do that and then find a different way of entertaining.
00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:51.039
And if you try to take a forest bike without a hire, it sets off an alarm.
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:52.559
It's impossible to push.
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:56.000
I mean, it just you have to really, really want to do it.
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:58.160
And even then it's it's yeah, yeah.
00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:01.279
There's no real value to it, it's uh it's only for the fun factor.
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:03.920
And if you and if it's noisy and you can't push it, then there's not much.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:06.720
So I think people have moved on from that, to be honest.
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:17.759
Thankfully, I mean, we never say, you know, there's always going to be a few isolated incidents, but it's I definitely in my hometown, I definitely saw a line bike that looked like it had been pulled out of a river a couple of days ago.
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:21.279
She covered in mud head to head to toe.
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:24.079
But um, so yeah, I think it kind of kind of stuff does happen a little bit.
00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:31.920
Um, but yeah, it's good that it's I guess also because it's now such a tool in London, the the novelty of it is kind of worn off and people have kind of moved.
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:43.680
I think that's the hacking problem um that has faced you know one of our competitors, and that's something that you know with a bird song of hackney that click, click, click, where it means uh it's not on a on a rental.
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:44.720
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:48.720
I didn't I just thought they were all broken for age, and then someone told me that, and I was like, oh right.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:51.279
Now my car's been hacked.
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:52.079
Yeah, exactly.
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:54.720
And you see someone who's looking quite pleased with themselves.
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:57.920
Yeah, yeah, because I think I hired one one like a long time ago.
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:02.160
This was probably in the just after COVID time, and there was a broken spoke, and it was making that noise.
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:03.759
So my head was like, Oh, okay.
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:05.039
It's another one with a broken spoke.
00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:06.799
I got all these broken spokes.
00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:08.960
They need to get their wheels changed.
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:15.519
Um, a final one on the fleet management, mostly because I'm I'm interested as a bike, bike nerd.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:21.680
But um you mentioned that the they have the touch points from from the guardians, but do you guys have a bit of a maintenance schedule?
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:22.960
Does that happen a bit through the winter?
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:24.240
You bring them into the factory.
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:25.200
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:32.559
We have four warehouses, and the bikes are bought proactively bought into the warehouse to have a full you know reconditioning.
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:37.359
So we're extending the life of our bikes from five to seven or eight years.
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:37.599
Okay.
00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:40.000
And that's because of this proactive maintenance program.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:42.240
So we don't sort of wait for issues to happen.
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:53.359
It's very much like a regular and rigorous proactive program that brings the bikes in, reconditions them, and just make sure that you know we're preempting any issues before they before they happen.
00:25:53.599 --> 00:26:06.160
Yeah, and I know these got these are shared bikes, but I've always said with bikes themselves is they are um fascinatingly simple in that like that you can just but you could make one last forever, really, because you could just keep changing the parts on it.
00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:06.799
Exactly.
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:10.799
That's we call them a Lego, I mean, in layman terms, a Lego bike.
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:12.480
You know, they're completely modular.
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:23.200
And we also do things, for example, you know, as I mentioned earlier, we've got a real focus on sustainability, so zero emission operations and extending the life of the bikes is really important to us.
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:23.839
Absolutely.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:30.799
And so we've got you know, teams who, for example, instead of replacing the seat, if there's a rip, we'll we'll repair it.
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:31.759
Things like that.
00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:36.880
And that's the lower cost way of doing it, but it's also the more sustainable way of doing it.
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:39.920
Slightly higher effort, but lower cost, more sustainable, which is great.
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:40.880
Exactly, exactly.
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:43.039
And that's because we're creating a business for the long term.
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:46.640
We, you know, it's not we don't just have a sort of sprint in mind.
00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:54.079
We really want to create a business that is here and sustainably, environmentally sustainable and financially sustainable as well.
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:55.279
Yeah, no, super.
00:26:55.680 --> 00:27:12.960
Um just moving on a little bit, and your role is more focused around um policy um and how uh I guess how how you're fitting into all of the boroughs of London and things that have been talked about a lot of you know, it's like however many boroughs there are, different cities in inside a city and all those things.
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:16.240
What does that landscape look like for forests?
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:19.519
What does that look like in um uh in human forests?
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.319
What's it look like for micromobility in general?
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:26.160
Is that quite is it constant conversations with each borough and all of those things?
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.559
Yeah, well you put the nail on the head there.
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:30.960
Um so there's 33 boroughs in London.
00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:31.759
Yeah.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.720
Um we, as I mentioned, started in two.
00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:40.240
We're now in 20, so we have the biggest operating area of any London operator.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:44.960
Um, and that has been through hard work, yeah.
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:46.799
Picking them off one by one.
00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:52.799
Um, in the sense of, as you touched on, each borough runs its own procurement process.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.400
So the scooter, e-scooter trial works a little bit differently.
00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:57.759
It's all run by TFL.
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:04.079
Boroughs um sort of delegate their authority to TFL to run that on their behalf.
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:11.440
With the bikes, it's the complete opposite in the sense of each borough has its own set of rules.
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:18.079
Um and that may mean, and that covers you know different SLAs and different approaches to parking.
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:25.519
And that does make it a little bit complicated for the user because the user doesn't typically know when they've crossed borough boundaries.
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:39.359
So in some boroughs, there'll be a combination of mandatory parking with more free floating, so you can park you know responsibly um outside of a bay, you know, if you're in a certain area and in and some you can't.
00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:44.720
Whereas in the neighbouring borough, you might have fully mandatory parking in a bay.
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:50.160
Uh so that does create a little bit of confusion and inertia around, am I doing the right thing?
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:54.400
And people generally they are the people are good, they want to do the right thing.
00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:54.640
Yeah.
00:28:54.880 --> 00:29:00.799
And we find sometimes if one bike is parked somewhere, people will think, oh, well, that's safe, I'll park there.
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:11.599
Um and particularly, it kind of comes back to this problem that we just don't have the parking infrastructure to support the demand for bikes currently.
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:18.240
The boroughs have been doing a really great job in adding parking infrastructure, but we just need to sort of keep keep going.
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:25.359
And that does require some tricky conversations, you know, with residents who think I don't want to lose my parking spaces.
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:32.640
But at the same time, they don't like you know the overfilling parking spaces or they don't like the bike bikes not parked responsibly.
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:32.880
Yeah.
00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:38.160
And people do want to do the right thing, but they need to have the space to be able to do so.
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:38.960
Yeah, definitely.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:40.240
Yeah, it's super challenging.
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:44.880
I mean, London, like a lot of European cities, isn't a place that's blessed with spare space.
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:47.039
So uh always a challenge.
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:56.480
Whether you're just parking something responsibly, but on a street corner, there's you know, they these aren't big, big, wide open spaces like in the US or in the Middle East or somewhere.
00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:58.640
So it does find that like tricky.
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:02.720
It is tricky and it has to be sort of an evolution rather than a revolution.
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:14.640
But yeah, when we're thinking back to sort of some difficult decisions around transport, their train line to go into Waterloo, a lot of houses had to be demolished to make space for that train line.
00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:20.079
And that was obviously a very, very difficult conversation to have with those with those homeowners.
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:28.480
But the public amenity that's been created by the train lines into Waterloo ultimately does, you know, serve Londoners.
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:29.200
Yeah.
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:38.160
So we'll, you know, we we're sort of having to sort of have some of those conversations about about parking spaces because there's a little bit of a NIMBY, you know, NIMBY mindset.
00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:42.880
But the boroughs, so just sort of back to the boroughs, it will there's some new legislation.
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:55.119
Um, the English Devolution Bill, which came, um, became an act quite recently, and that will allow TFL to regulate bike share in the same way that it's been able to regulate scooters.
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:55.519
Okay.
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:59.039
And that will mean that it comes under one framework in London.
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:04.640
And that will be, you know, great for users in the sense that it will be a uniform approach.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:15.839
Um, borough boundaries will no longer matter, um, and also great for for operators because it creates more certainty around what that sort of licensing framework and requirements look like.
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:16.160
Yeah.
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:21.599
So we won't have the zip car type scenarios of suddenly the license changes and the business model's broken, I guess.
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:22.079
Exactly.
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:30.319
A lot of these are all programs in any kind of like rental, is you know, it becomes super the the margins are super sensitive to things like that.
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:36.000
So yeah, I definitely get you know you guys invest in an area, rule changes, and all of a sudden you're like, actually, this doesn't fit the model.
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:44.000
And it's really natural, of course, for the regulation to take a while to catch up because this is remains in a nascent industry.
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:44.480
Yeah.
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:49.279
Um, it's been the sort of five years that it's suddenly supercharged.
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:50.079
So yeah, it takes.
00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:51.680
I was thinking that this morning, actually.
00:31:51.759 --> 00:32:01.599
I was just walking to the studio and I thought, oh, I can't really actually, as I was crossing the road and I was like, oh yeah, it's actually it was a human forest bike and uh someone on their own bike and then a different sharp.
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:07.119
I was like, oh, I I can't remember London without having bike share bikes, but it's not actually that long ago.
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:12.799
When you think like the the tube is a hundred and something, you know, nearly 150 years old.
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:14.400
Yeah, it's actually not been that long.
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:16.400
It's still finding its finding its feet.
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:18.000
Yeah, and also, I mean, it's a good point.
00:32:18.079 --> 00:32:23.839
You know, the tube's 150 years old, and bike shear helps to alleviate a little bit of pressure on the tube.
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:31.839
Yeah, and particularly on tube strike days, those days, the ridership um, you know, and bike shear does actually play a really important role.
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:32.880
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:35.440
Oh, just you know, such a fascinating change.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:40.400
And I suppose that things happen so quickly, but we could we really only think in like such short time frames.
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:44.240
Hey, bike's been around for ages, but actually, everybody's still learning and figuring stuff out.
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:45.440
It's uh super exciting.
00:32:46.319 --> 00:33:04.400
Um, and I also I guess on that note as well, one of the things that we discussed before and kind of the pre-calls about the Road Traffic Act and kind of how um yeah, that's a very like a lot of these things, very, very old, wasn't envisaged, well, wasn't created in envisaging a kind of shared bike or shared micro-mobility solution.
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:11.200
So tell us a bit about kind of the the background of that, where it where it fits, and maybe some of the challenges that that's kind of changed or causing as well.
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:41.519
Yeah, so um there's a there is a gap in terms of um rider liability insurance, a sort of third-party insurance, um, whereby those you know, riders of forest bikes, um, if they you know contravene the terms and conditions or you know, a number of sort of other exclusions mandated by the user uh by the by the insurer, then anybody sort of a victim of that um that rider is not covered by insurance.
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:45.440
So there's a a gap in cover um for the public.
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:54.799
So that's something that we're really wanting to work with the insurance um industry on and try and find solutions, which hopefully the licensing framework does sort of contemplate.
00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:05.039
The Road Traffic Act, um, without getting too technical on it, um if if you've got a vehicle as part of the Road Traffic Act, there is strict liability.
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:16.000
So that means that if someone um is a victim, it doesn't matter if the perpetrator of that or was doing something illegal, they will always pay out.
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:16.400
Right.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:21.199
Whereas at the moment, bike share or bikes um do not fall within that category.
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:21.840
I see.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.599
So that that's the subtlety of it.
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:28.559
So if I'm speeding in my car and I crash and hit, that doesn't invalidate my insurance.
00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:30.000
The insurance still has to pay.
00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:32.159
I separately can get in trouble for doing whatever.
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:34.159
Exactly, and that's a criminal offense.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:40.639
But in this scenario, you break the terms and conditions, that invalidates the insurance, and therefore everybody loses in that.
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:41.519
Exactly.
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:46.000
And it's a really delicate balance in the sense that you know, bikes aren't cars.
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:46.480
Yeah.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:57.280
Um, so we need to sort of as an industry think how this evolves to protect the public, but in a way that doesn't hold people back from wanting to bike.
00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:04.159
And when we're talking about, you know, we bikes, we're not just talking about bike share, we're talking about, you know, regular e-bikes, private e-bikes.
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:13.039
And that's once you sort of start going down that line of just looking at bike share, you sort of open up the can of worms of all this different types of bikes.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:28.159
Um, and that's you know, we want to encourage bike usage, as we mentioned about the MES targets, and to help achieve those, we need bike share to be seen as something positive and not overly burdensome from an insurance perspective for the rider.
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:28.559
Yeah.
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:36.639
So that's something that, yeah, is a sort of a an area that a nuanced area that needs, you know, support and collaboration from a number of parties.
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:50.800
Yeah, and I guess the challenge a little bit around um the business model that we mentioned earlier is it's it's fine to be able to go, well, oh yeah, we could put insurance in place for that, but it doubles the cost of insurance, which then suddenly makes the cost of the bikes to the to the user um prohibitive.
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:55.280
You still want to make the balance, make sure everybody's protected but get the balance right.
00:35:55.519 --> 00:36:03.199
Yeah, and it's still a relatively nascent industry, as I mentioned, and we need to keep innovating in technology and safety and the hardware.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:06.079
Um, and that also requires investment too.
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:09.519
So um it's yeah, it's a delicate balance.
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:11.599
Yeah, no, so it's super interesting.
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:15.280
Um, it'd be interesting to see how that that progresses over time.
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:25.440
Um just kind of um finishing up, kind of final topic I wanted to cover, which was just thinking about the kind of future of micromobility and just thinking about how uh it might evolve as an industry.
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:35.440
Like we say, it's it's very new uh in in real terms, yeah, and feels like it's come a long way in that time to sort of become a regular but part of people's people's lives in in lots of senses.
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:41.280
Um what are your thoughts, kind of like medium, long-term, pick pick your time frame, but you know, but how do you see it evolving?
00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:46.480
I guess specifically here in London, but let's be saying that might that that's also reflective of other European cities.
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:54.079
Yeah, no, we're I mean we're really excited by the continued opportunity in London to transform the way people are moving.
00:36:54.320 --> 00:37:04.400
We we feel like we are pushing on an open door in the sense that you know bike share and biking in particular is just becoming it's prolific in its usage now.
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:15.199
Um so if we can continue that, continue to invest in you know cycle ways, which the you know, London's been doing a you know tremendous job and increasing that that side of the infrastructure.
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:19.440
But what we really need to do is you know think about that curbside usage.
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:33.760
And I do feel like a complete stuck record, but we need to, you know, think about the way that public space is allocated in a way that one helps us achieve those you know targets for active travel and the demand.
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:44.639
So if we can, because then we can sort of move remote, we can stop talking about that you know, divide of the public space, not with bikes being in the wrong place.
00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:49.840
And we can kind of move that conversation on if we have the the parking infrastructure.
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:53.280
It can stop becoming about you know that issue.
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:59.119
Yeah, fight fighting over the curbside and actually having it just as a part of in the same way as you'd have a bus stop.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.599
You go, well, we've this is the space we make for a bus stop.
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:05.840
You go, well, this is the place we m we space we make at the right places for that.
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:06.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:21.360
We can move the conversation on if we you know have the infrastructure, not just the you know, the the actual cycle ways, but the parking infrastructure, it become can become biking become a can become a less divisive topic again.
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:22.320
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:25.760
And how about kind of the the use of technology more more widely?
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:30.400
Um, thinking about the the favorite topic comes up on every podcast about AI and and these things.
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:40.559
Obviously, you guys are in you know, to a certain extent, a relatively kind of like physical industry, there's physical things and people moving from A to B, but also a really strong technology wrapper.
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:44.719
So is that something that you're seeing is gonna help help predict trends, helping us.
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:45.679
Yeah, absolutely.
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:50.719
It really helps us to um forecast the amount of operational resource we're going to need.
00:38:50.800 --> 00:39:01.440
So you can look at you know the weather, you can look at like historical usage from those days, um, and then and then predict so that and that helps us really with our service levels again.
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:07.119
So if we're using we're using AI to predict effectively, we can make sure that we're delivering a really good service.
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:13.440
Yeah, and I guess it ultimately comes down to utilization, it's the favorite like car car rental number.
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:25.119
But it's like you want to make sure that you've got as many of the bikes in the right place at the right time to increase and to maximize their utilization, and any edge or advantage you can have in that is just going to make the service better.
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:32.800
You want to be able to get more people on the bikes without having to put more bikes on the road or to put more bikes on, but get exponential usage across the bike.
00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:42.639
And that that goes to the availability of bikes, i.e., you know, the battery needs to be full, it needs to have had the maintenance, you know, if a pedals come off, it needs to have been fixed.
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:58.079
And you know, AI can help us with that by opt-massively optimizing the routes that the guardians go on, yeah, the job tasks, um, getting to the most important tasks first, um, and as well um working out, you know, where where best to put the bikes.
00:39:58.320 --> 00:39:58.960
Yeah, sweet.
00:39:59.440 --> 00:39:59.920
Awesome.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:01.679
Um, Caroline, thanks so much for coming on.
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:02.960
I know you're super busy as well.
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:04.639
So thank you for making the time.
00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:06.000
It's been uh been really interesting.
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:11.360
Nice to have a slight change of pace from the car world into the adjacent uh micromobility world.
00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:17.840
But so like super um super fascinating to see how those align and uh you know car ownership and car sharing and those things.
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:21.760
Absolutely, yeah.
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:25.599
I was thinking that when you were saying about you know getting rid of all the cars in London.
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:30.960
I've seen there's probably quite a lot of uh car lovers on on the are listening to the I may not be very popular.
00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:34.719
I think it's that bit, but that's why I would say so, especially the the second car usage.
00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:36.880
Like it's it's the efficiency of the cars.
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:40.079
Yeah, it's like actually, we know people will still want cars.
00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:45.280
No one's ever said people don't want them, but it's actually like can we just make the better use of them?
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:48.639
Have a have one, use other other bits, share some.
00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:52.000
It's definitely a mode people are getting their heads around.
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:54.320
So yeah, that's it's super uh super interesting.
00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:57.679
Uh thanks everybody for for listening to the end of this uh this episode.
00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:05.760
Uh check out all of our other episodes on uh Spotify, Apple, uh, Amazon, um, and also across YouTube.
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:10.159
Uh so loads of episodes there if you enjoyed this one, and also please like and subscribe.
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:18.559
Uh, also a reminder just to set a placeholder in your diary 18th of November is our Auto Future Cast Live uh Aeon's headquarters.
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:21.599
Um, more details about that coming soon as well.
00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:24.239
Um, so yeah, thanks again, and we'll catch you next time.
