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Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, a
place where we have conscious conversations
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about things that really matter in our lives.
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And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
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Hi, everyone.
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It's Roxanne Durhonch.
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Thanks for tuning in again this week to
authentic living with Roxanne.
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Today, have a special colleague, Tom Duet.
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Tom has done a lot in the global ecosystem of
customer experience.
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So, Tom, welcome to the podcast today.
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Thank you.
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It's great being here.
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So let me tell you a little bit about him.
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He's a PhD and the founder of Exm Global
Collaborative, a global ecosystem created for
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customer experience and management
practitioners' professional development.
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He's the founder of CXF at MSU and the academic
director of masters of science at customer
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experience at Broad College of Business in
Michigan State.
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He's has over twenty years of experience.
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So, Tom, just kinda tell us kind of what what
kind of brings you to the path of customer
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experience, and where where's the focus today?
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I know we're in, I'm gonna say, a bit of a tilt
with where things are going in the world.
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Aren't we always?
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My my interest on the field started when I was
14 years old working as a busboy in a
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restaurant.
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That was my first paid job.
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And I came to realize that I could impact the
lives of people positively.
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And I set out on a career in the hospitality
industry.
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I have a culinary degree.
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I have a four year degree in hospitality
management.
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And along the way, I was always intrigued by
two things.
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One, how consumers chose and navigated
experiences, hospitality and otherwise, and
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also how they were impacted by the employees
that they engaged with, and how employees
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approached their roles.
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So I worked in senior management positions in
the hospitality industry, both in The US and in
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Asia, before embarking on my PhD in services
marketing, which is really a predecessor or
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laid early groundwork for the field of customer
experience management.
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And for those of your listeners that don't
quite know what it means, customer experience
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management is really the purposeful design and
execution on the experiences that customers
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have with their organization.
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Much of it is very process driven, process
design, but it also takes into consideration
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all of the physical attributes or sensory
attributes that influence customers'
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perceptions, as well as the people they engage
with.
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So in its totality, Lou Carbone would classify
experiences in three different categories of
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clues.
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Functional clues are everything that goes into
producing a product or service, like getting
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your lunch order or your coffee order right,
and the human clues, which are the clues given
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off by all of the human beings in the
environment, including service personnel.
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And then let's see functional.
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Well, humanic and then mechanic clues are all
of the sensory cues.
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So, you know, as a consumer, when we go into
experience, we're taking all that in.
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But, you know, conversely, and this is where
our industry comes in, understanding who those
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consumers are and what brought them there and
what their goals were, are not only in terms of
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functional outcomes, but also emotional
outcomes.
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Because one thing that we realize, the
majority, the vast majority of decisions that
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consumers make are based on emotions and
desired emotional state.
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So that's really key as well.
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Throw into this mix that consumers today make
most of their decisions based not on
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advertising, but on the reviews and feedback
that they get from other people.
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And technology just fuels this.
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So if you ask a group of people, what do you
trust more?
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A third party review from somebody you've never
met, or an advertisement from a company,
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overwhelmingly, they point to the reviews.
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And the reviews are the results of people's
experiences.
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So now businesses have a vested interest in the
quality of the experiences they deliver,
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because customers are making decisions based on
desired emotional states.
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They're making decisions largely on the quality
of the experience.
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That's a huge thing.
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And if a company does good or does well in that
endeavor, then customers say good things about
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them, which will impact the decisions of other
people.
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And that's not even taking into consideration
the value of customer loyalty and what that
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means in terms of consumer spending over the
years and how they influence other people.
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So this is really what we've seen in the past
thirty years, I guess, is a move away from a
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very product centric transactional business
model that's around here.
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We're going to develop this product.
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We're gonna market the heck out of it.
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We're gonna sell a lot.
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We're gonna make a lot of money.
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And it's more about understanding when people
set out on experiences, what are they trying
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accomplish?
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And what are its nuances, not just in the
functionality?
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Like, you know, I always like to talk about
restaurants.
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It's not just the quality of the food, but it's
the environment in which it's provided, right?
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And the mood that that sets.
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It's the people in which we engage in.
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And that can change based on the context.
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Are you meeting?
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Are you on a date?
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Is it a family reunion?
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And it's really understanding that and being
able to deliver on it and adapt to it makes
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what we do.
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So you did mention things of we've had these
swings and things that have really driven our
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field for about ten, fifteen years.
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It was about surveys and measurements, NPS
scores and customer effort scores.
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And we're hearing all about AI and the use of
AI in different aspects of the experience from
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research, data collection, data analysis.
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We hear a lot about chat baits and generative
AI being used by call centers.
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In fact, I wouldn't even call it a
conversation, but I had an interaction with a
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computer for about ten minutes.
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Didn't fully get things resolved.
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And that's one of the issues.
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So one of the things we're facing as an
industry right now is a lot of these decisions
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are being made based on cost savings or the
belief that organizations are gonna save money
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by using AI.
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But unfortunately, the majority of AI
initiatives and experience management aren't
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meeting their ROI projections.
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So I think we're still in a state of flux.
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But AI is here to stay.
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And if used properly, it makes people more
productive, and we'll be able to do a better
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job in experience management.
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So you're talking about reviews.
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Right?
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I I was at an event recently.
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We were talking about Reddit, for instance.
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Yep.
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And the impact on things like Reddit and Quora
and marketing now, how much more the impact of
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YouTube is with engagement, those types of
things.
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And now you throw in that little splice that
you just gave in about the AI kind of bot
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that's kind of maybe dealing with a lot of
things because companies are implementing it.
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So if I let's say I go to a high end
restaurant, I have an expectation, like you
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said, if I'm gonna spend a couple $100 for a
nice meal to feel a certain way.
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But let's say something's off.
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Right?
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Maybe I've gone there a lot.
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The odds are the more likely I'm gonna kinda
not I've gotta kinda shelve it under onetime
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experience.
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Do you find that in this economy right now, are
people still more likely to stay with a brand
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that they've always liked if there's a one off,
or are they more likely to kind of be reactive
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and go in, you know, write the review and those
types of things?
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So a couple things going on here.
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I'm glad you touched on this area because I
enjoy it.
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The reality is we wanna be in monogamous
relationships with brands we can trust.
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Right?
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And the the reality is, to your point, the
longer we're in a relationship, the higher is
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the trust.
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So two things happen here.
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One, we're more forgiving.
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So it's like, you know, your point, you go,
that was a one off.
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The other thing that happens is because we
value that relationship so much, and we want to
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see it endure, and we want to see them do well,
oftentimes we'll provide feedback because we
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want it fixed.
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As opposed to the person who hasn't been there
very long, they see a mistake and they go,
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Well, I'm not coming here anymore.
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I'm gonna go someplace else.
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To that point, you know, technology has lowered
switching costs.
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So when you think about what it used to take to
find alternatives and evaluate them, it was a
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very laborious, you know?
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You had to go to the yellow pages.
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Remember those?
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Tomorrow, you're gonna learn.
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There's no internet.
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Where are you gonna learn about the food
quality?
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Switching costs were so much higher.
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When you try another restaurant, well, where
are you gonna go and why?
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Well, now you can do like I do.
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I go to my phone.
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My favorite search feature is restaurants near
me.
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And I go through there, I look at the high
scoring, and I look it's important to invest in
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the relationship with your customers, and to
consistently offer repeated satisfactory
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encounters, which means you need to know what
they expect and why, and you need to be able to
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deliver on that consistently.
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And technology can help you to do that, but you
gotta be able to deliver at a high level,
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right?
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And that's why I still think there's a strong
desire for human interaction.
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Technology can do certain things.
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It doesn't need to be at a high end restaurant.
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I go to Panera quite often and use their app to
great advantage for ordering and tracking and
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rewards points and things like that.
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But where they often fail is maybe because of
staffing shortages come up and there will be a
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note on the door excusing the service today
because they're shorthand.
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So as an organization, if you go all in on
technology, you ignore your people and the
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internal processes that drive employee
engagement, how they feel about their job and
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how they feel about the organization, you can
fail in that way too.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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Don't
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And I've been like, you know, well, of course,
I talk about the ROR, right, which is all about
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relationship.
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Like, you know, it's so common.
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It's one thing it's one thing too, like, with
your management.
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I often talk about with employees.
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They may have a beef, or they may have a
disgruntled kind of perspective or
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diametrically opposed kind of position from
yourself and kind of what the vision and the
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mission is for the environment.
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But I think it's sometimes listening to a
different perspective, which may have validity.
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It doesn't mean it needs to be negated
altogether.
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But it's when you kind of like, I was recently
talking to somebody about the generations in
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the workforce at present, right, and the newer
generation and how they are coming from working
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and leading from a different spacing.
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We we call them entitled or they're coming in
and they have different goals, say, compared to
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the baby boomers or stuff like that.
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And, ultimately, you're still having to manage
all those individuals.
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And you wanna lead them to success, obviously,
to your brand or whatever.
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How open do you think from the companies that
you're dealing with that are very successful to
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that diametrically opposed position with some
of the different decision making.
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Yeah.
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I would say not that they're diametrically
opposed.
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Maybe the value system is different, but not in
a bad way.
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You know, what I've seen the younger generation
is they put a higher value on quality of life.
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Our generation, we just work way too hard.
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Know, I admire the younger generation for that.
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You know, my daughter, you know, in terms of
her physical health, her mental health, and
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she's much more well rounded.
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I think that's a good thing.
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I guess the overriding principle for me is if
you have a truly customer centric organization,
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or maybe you don't call it customer centric,
but everyone wants to feel like they're part of
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something bigger than themselves, right?
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They want to feel that what they do every day
matters.
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And I would argue maybe the younger generation
feels that more than my generation did.
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Particularly if you're a customer centric
organization, it's easier to make that
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connection, right?
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Whether you work in accounting or you work a
frontline role, if I understand you as an
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individual and why you're there, what you're
hoping to get out of your work, And I'm helping
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to develop you in that role and show you a path
forward, but also help you to understand how
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you're part of a greater group of people that's
here to understand and meet the needs of their
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customers in a meaningful way.
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Now, isn't that worth getting out of bed for
every day and going to work?
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As opposed to not knowing, which is often the
case that I've seen, where employees don't know
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much about the vision or mission or direction
of their organization or its values or how they
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fit in.
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And you think about how that affects your
psyche and leaves you open to leaving when
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things go wrong.
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Companies should be in the business of serving,
understanding and serving the needs of their
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customers.
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And being profitable allows them to continue to
do so.
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I think if I work for a company like that, and
that's how we operate every day, I'd feel
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pretty good about what we do.
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And my research has shown that.
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I've run measurement scales, internal samples
and organizations, multiple organizations,
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measure customer centricity and employee
engagement.
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And not surprisingly, they're very highly
correlated on many dimensions.
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Because I think that resonates with people,
whether it's the younger generation or the
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older generation, maybe more so with the
younger generation.
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I think you're right.
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But that's where we come down to leadership or
management levels or supervisory.
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And, you know, the frontline people are so key
fundamentally.
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Right?
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And they are touching the customer that's
walking through that door if it's a physical
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environment or if it's a digital environment.
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There's still a feel that you wanna experience.
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And, you know Exactly.
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When I was an executive in health and wellness,
for instance, huge company.
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And, you know, oftentimes, when I would get
concerns about the quality of service, you
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know, initially, I would deal with them alone,
Tom, because it was a smaller company.
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You know, my accountant were attached to me.
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The how much the company had grown.
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But what ended up happening is the quality of
that touch point when there was a concern got
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removed from myself as the executive.
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So the length of time that it sometimes took to
resolution got longer, and clients would, you
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know, just be horrified.
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Right?
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Like, I mean, someone's been sitting on a line.
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For instance, they're calling in for
psychological service.
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Hopefully, they've been triaged, and there's
nothing physical, but, generally, it wasn't
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any, you know, critical.
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But they still would time the the length of
time oftentimes.
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And into the contract, some things would say it
has to be within a certain times.
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And then every quarter, as they increase the
suppose supposedly efficiency of quality
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assurance, the length of time got longer and
longer to resolution.
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Yep.
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So you had these absent companies freaking out.
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Right?
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And we would obviously try to kind of address
things.
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But what was most important in me, myself, as
the executive running the accounts was the
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relationship I had.
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So I could pick up that phone and say, well,
you know, when Tom called in, you know, from
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Buffalo, you know, the wait times were black.
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This is what happened.
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This is what we've done to address it.
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But because there were so many levels, by the
time that I got to people already peeved.
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So I couldn't by the time the explanation would
have gotten to them, they were already saying,
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when your other customers do clients do this,
please do this, and then it ended up being a
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big thing.
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So with bigger companies today, what are they
doing to address kind of that lag time?
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Okay.
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We have systems, like you said, AI.
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Right?
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But are there certain things that you're seeing
that's working and that's not working out
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there?
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Yeah.
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Well, it all comes back to the fundamental
principles for complaint handling and
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resolution.
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First of all, people want interactional
justice.
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They want to feel that what they're coming to
you with is understood and it's valued.
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So they want apologies.
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They want you to take ownership of it, right?
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Be understanding.
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It's hard to do that with technology in a
meaningful way.
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Particularly people figure out they're talking
to a computer.
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You know?
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They're like, okay.
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Whatever.
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You know?
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Am I talking to a human today or wherever?
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Right?
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Yeah.
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They want procedural justice.
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Make it easy for me to do this.
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And part of that procedural justice is
informing people of wait times.
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It's saying what you're seeing a lot with
technology now is we can call you back.
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Would you like to be called back at this
number?
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Now, you think about that.
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Now all of sudden, I can hang up the phone and
go back to what I was doing.
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I can forget about it, right?
303
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And then they call me back.
304
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So that's really key, procedural justice.
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And then distributive justice is a resolution
fair.
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And I think it's understanding the extent, the
amount of damage that's been caused.
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And it's not always about giving things away.
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Often it's just answering their question or
providing them with a solution that meets the
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problem that they came to you with.
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And sometimes you can do that with technology,
with chatbots and so forth, with a large enough
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database, they're able to identify the
appropriate solution pretty quick.
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00:19:30,875 --> 00:19:37,994
But two of the biggest reasons why AI
initiatives and contact centers don't meet
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their ARYI is from a lack of sufficient data.
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So you ask a question and it queries, I don't
have an answer to that question right now.
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00:19:46,779 --> 00:19:49,900
Or you may want to, well, that just frustrates
you more, right?
316
00:19:50,299 --> 00:19:53,900
Or a failure to integrate with existing
systems.
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So I think oftentimes organizations rush into
this a little too fast with cost savings as the
318
00:20:02,304 --> 00:20:07,505
primary driver rather than improving the
quality of the outcomes.
319
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And that should always be their primary focus.
320
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Right?
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So I think that's you know, there's a potential
there, but it's a matter of melding both
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technology and humanity and human beings in
that conversation.
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And I think
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And we're not there yet.
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00:20:25,904 --> 00:20:28,304
Well, not a lot of companies We're way off.
326
00:20:28,785 --> 00:20:33,184
Well, a lot of companies are trying to get to
it quicker and implementing and thinking about
327
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this broad brush of of we're gonna just
implement all the AI strategies, and it's good
328
00:20:37,345 --> 00:20:42,119
to they're feeling the human the human the
human element is getting lost.
329
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And, you know, with the human element being
lost, then they they perceive that that's gonna
330
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address all the concerns.
331
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Like you said, their bottom line is gonna be
you know, a certain amount's gonna be shaved
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off, and we'll be all good.
333
00:20:52,839 --> 00:20:58,224
And then you have your massive your human
capital kinda leaving and going out in droves
334
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because they're like, you know, when you're
working for a company, you're getting
335
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consistence, like, for for this particular
company.
336
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After a while, they had grown so quick in such
a short period of time, so they didn't kind of
337
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plan proactively for the the extent of their
growth.
338
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Unfortunately, as the leaders got deeper with
myself as an executive, the complaints were the
339
00:21:17,819 --> 00:21:18,299
same.
340
00:21:18,299 --> 00:21:22,545
And then you're just hoping that you can rely
on the relationship.
341
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But after a while, you can't go back and say,
I'm so sorry.
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00:21:25,025 --> 00:21:29,345
By the way, we've chopped a minute off, but now
something else has gone awry.
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So I think it's looking at what strategies are
you gonna implement because you're looking at
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the outcomes.
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00:21:34,740 --> 00:21:38,259
And then how is your faithful customers that
are gonna stay with you?
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They're still gonna be upset if now the quality
kind of dips at a certain level as well.
347
00:21:43,139 --> 00:21:43,700
Absolutely.
348
00:21:44,835 --> 00:21:49,394
Now I know you are the were the a a timeline
crutch for you today.
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But based on the economy today and for
companies that are really, really looking to
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hold on to what business is and really continue
to strive to increase business and keep the
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good customers that they have at present and
attract new?
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00:22:06,299 --> 00:22:10,940
Are there a couple of points that companies
should be thinking about on the customer
353
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experience end to insurance?
354
00:22:13,275 --> 00:22:13,674
Well,
355
00:22:15,115 --> 00:22:17,595
you know, first of all, look at your core
competencies.
356
00:22:17,595 --> 00:22:19,194
Don't look for quick fixes.
357
00:22:19,674 --> 00:22:24,875
You know, truly understand what it means to be
a customer centric organization in terms of
358
00:22:24,875 --> 00:22:29,929
your day to day operating practice and how
customer experience management fits into that.
359
00:22:30,330 --> 00:22:32,490
Invest in qualitative research.
360
00:22:33,049 --> 00:22:36,970
There are so many limitations to survey data,
so many.
361
00:22:37,130 --> 00:22:39,289
Invest in qualitative research.
362
00:22:39,690 --> 00:22:44,974
We still need to do depth interviews, whether
they're done virtually or in person.
363
00:22:45,295 --> 00:22:49,855
Take the time to understand where your
customers are coming from and what they're
364
00:22:49,855 --> 00:22:51,134
trying to accomplish.
365
00:22:51,454 --> 00:22:59,730
And create purposely driven experiences that
are focused on both functional and emotional
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outcomes for the consumer.
367
00:23:02,130 --> 00:23:06,849
And be conscious of the clues that I've laid
out in every touchpoint and how do they
368
00:23:06,849 --> 00:23:07,730
reinforce that?
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00:23:07,730 --> 00:23:09,169
How are they moving them closer?
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00:23:09,424 --> 00:23:12,704
Whether it's an insurance product, you name it.
371
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It could be anything, right?
372
00:23:13,984 --> 00:23:15,825
There's a reason why I go to Panera.
373
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It's not the coffee.
374
00:23:16,784 --> 00:23:17,744
The coffee's good.
375
00:23:17,744 --> 00:23:22,544
But it's because the environment provides me
with a setting where I can work and relax and
376
00:23:22,625 --> 00:23:23,345
everything, right?
377
00:23:23,670 --> 00:23:26,470
So you got to be conscious of all that.
378
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:28,630
And then continuously improve.
379
00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:34,470
Customer needs and desires are changing
constantly, as is their ability to utilize
380
00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:35,349
technology.
381
00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:43,434
And then maybe the last thing is utilize
technology to improve your core competencies.
382
00:23:43,994 --> 00:23:47,115
Not to save money, but to make you more
productive.
383
00:23:47,115 --> 00:23:48,474
You'll be more profitable.
384
00:23:48,794 --> 00:23:56,179
But choosing and using AI, it has to come based
on what is it gonna help you to improve and how
385
00:23:56,660 --> 00:23:58,259
and not cost savings.
386
00:23:58,259 --> 00:23:58,740
Right?
387
00:23:58,740 --> 00:23:59,700
Not cost savings.
388
00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:00,660
Not the bottom line.
389
00:24:00,580 --> 00:24:02,180
The not the bottom line again.
390
00:24:02,180 --> 00:24:02,740
Yep.
391
00:24:03,299 --> 00:24:08,865
So for people that are wanting to learn more
now that we have you have a conference coming
392
00:24:08,865 --> 00:24:09,345
up.
393
00:24:09,345 --> 00:24:09,825
Yep.
394
00:24:09,825 --> 00:24:11,585
You wanna tell people a little bit about it.
395
00:24:11,585 --> 00:24:14,224
I'm also a keynote speaker at the event.
396
00:24:14,625 --> 00:24:18,670
Tom, tell people a little bit about it if they
want are interested in signing up and learning
397
00:24:18,670 --> 00:24:19,309
more about it.
398
00:24:19,309 --> 00:24:19,549
Sure.
399
00:24:19,549 --> 00:24:22,109
Well, they can learn more about me on LinkedIn.
400
00:24:22,109 --> 00:24:24,109
I'm Tom DeWitt, PhD.
401
00:24:24,109 --> 00:24:25,710
I think I'm the only one there.
402
00:24:26,109 --> 00:24:27,950
The Exm Global Collaborative.
403
00:24:28,190 --> 00:24:34,305
There, they can learn more or they can go to
our website, www.xmgc.org.
404
00:24:34,545 --> 00:24:38,785
And there they can learn about our conference,
the XM Global three sixty.
405
00:24:40,705 --> 00:24:48,909
We're offering two programs Hemisphere
beginning in Hanoi at 9AM on May 21.
406
00:24:49,149 --> 00:24:54,909
And then the Western Hemisphere at 9AM Eastern
Standard Time in New York City.
407
00:24:56,109 --> 00:24:58,674
Three forty five minute sessions.
408
00:24:58,674 --> 00:25:04,515
Each one you can choose from one of four to
five different sessions.
409
00:25:04,515 --> 00:25:06,034
So people have choices.
410
00:25:06,355 --> 00:25:08,434
And all the sessions are recorded.
411
00:25:09,394 --> 00:25:10,835
So you'll be able to watch them.
412
00:25:10,835 --> 00:25:14,650
You have up to thirty days platform to watch
your recordings.
413
00:25:15,370 --> 00:25:20,250
And if you become a member of the
collaborative, you can can watch them through
414
00:25:20,250 --> 00:25:23,609
your member portal that every member has.
415
00:25:23,930 --> 00:25:24,490
Awesome.
416
00:25:25,184 --> 00:25:27,105
Well, Tom, thanks so much for your time.
417
00:25:27,105 --> 00:25:33,024
And I also have the privilege, like I said, on
presenting on the elements of relationship and
418
00:25:33,024 --> 00:25:38,304
the bottom line, the ROR, which is the return
versus the investment.
419
00:25:38,304 --> 00:25:43,990
So I will be putting a link in the show notes
so that if you're interested in attending and
420
00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:49,909
and signing up and and joining the the
collaborative, that would be a great thing.
421
00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:51,589
So, again, Tom, thanks so much.
422
00:25:51,589 --> 00:25:52,470
And for everybody
423
00:25:52,309 --> 00:25:53,190
Thank you, Roxanne.
424
00:25:53,515 --> 00:25:54,154
Thank you.
425
00:25:54,154 --> 00:25:59,275
Anybody looking to connect about the ROR
masterclass, just reach out to me at Roxanne at
426
00:25:59,275 --> 00:26:02,634
Roxanne Durhodge dot com for more details.
427
00:26:02,634 --> 00:26:04,154
Again, thank you, Tom.
428
00:26:04,154 --> 00:26:05,194
And, everyone, take care.
429
00:26:05,194 --> 00:26:06,154
We'll talk to you soon.
430
00:26:06,154 --> 00:26:06,634
Bye bye.
431
00:26:06,634 --> 00:26:07,035
Take care.
432
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:08,960
Thanks, Roxanne.
433
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:14,880
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living with
Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
434
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:15,920
healthy change.
435
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,319
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,
and coach.
436
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:26,144
To work with Roxanne, visit
roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
437
00:26:26,305 --> 00:26:30,225
We'll see you next time on Authentic Living
with Roxanne.
00:00:01,199 --> 00:00:08,480
Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, a
place where we have conscious conversations
2
00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,599
about things that really matter in our lives.
3
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,625
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
4
00:00:40,664 --> 00:00:41,304
Hi, everyone.
5
00:00:41,304 --> 00:00:42,664
It's Roxanne Durhonch.
6
00:00:42,664 --> 00:00:46,265
Thanks for tuning in again this week to
authentic living with Roxanne.
7
00:00:46,344 --> 00:00:48,585
Today, have a special colleague, Tom Duet.
8
00:00:48,585 --> 00:00:53,309
Tom has done a lot in the global ecosystem of
customer experience.
9
00:00:53,309 --> 00:00:55,549
So, Tom, welcome to the podcast today.
10
00:00:56,030 --> 00:00:56,509
Thank you.
11
00:00:56,509 --> 00:00:57,789
It's great being here.
12
00:00:57,949 --> 00:00:59,710
So let me tell you a little bit about him.
13
00:00:59,789 --> 00:01:04,349
He's a PhD and the founder of Exm Global
Collaborative, a global ecosystem created for
14
00:01:04,349 --> 00:01:09,055
customer experience and management
practitioners' professional development.
15
00:01:09,135 --> 00:01:16,335
He's the founder of CXF at MSU and the academic
director of masters of science at customer
16
00:01:16,335 --> 00:01:20,415
experience at Broad College of Business in
Michigan State.
17
00:01:20,599 --> 00:01:23,239
He's has over twenty years of experience.
18
00:01:23,799 --> 00:01:29,239
So, Tom, just kinda tell us kind of what what
kind of brings you to the path of customer
19
00:01:29,239 --> 00:01:32,359
experience, and where where's the focus today?
20
00:01:32,359 --> 00:01:37,084
I know we're in, I'm gonna say, a bit of a tilt
with where things are going in the world.
21
00:01:38,125 --> 00:01:38,844
Aren't we always?
22
00:01:38,844 --> 00:01:45,725
My my interest on the field started when I was
14 years old working as a busboy in a
23
00:01:45,725 --> 00:01:46,204
restaurant.
24
00:01:46,204 --> 00:01:47,564
That was my first paid job.
25
00:01:48,370 --> 00:01:54,369
And I came to realize that I could impact the
lives of people positively.
26
00:01:54,369 --> 00:01:57,810
And I set out on a career in the hospitality
industry.
27
00:01:57,810 --> 00:01:59,170
I have a culinary degree.
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I have a four year degree in hospitality
management.
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And along the way, I was always intrigued by
two things.
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One, how consumers chose and navigated
experiences, hospitality and otherwise, and
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also how they were impacted by the employees
that they engaged with, and how employees
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approached their roles.
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So I worked in senior management positions in
the hospitality industry, both in The US and in
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Asia, before embarking on my PhD in services
marketing, which is really a predecessor or
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laid early groundwork for the field of customer
experience management.
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And for those of your listeners that don't
quite know what it means, customer experience
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management is really the purposeful design and
execution on the experiences that customers
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have with their organization.
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Much of it is very process driven, process
design, but it also takes into consideration
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all of the physical attributes or sensory
attributes that influence customers'
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perceptions, as well as the people they engage
with.
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So in its totality, Lou Carbone would classify
experiences in three different categories of
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clues.
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Functional clues are everything that goes into
producing a product or service, like getting
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your lunch order or your coffee order right,
and the human clues, which are the clues given
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off by all of the human beings in the
environment, including service personnel.
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And then let's see functional.
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Well, humanic and then mechanic clues are all
of the sensory cues.
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So, you know, as a consumer, when we go into
experience, we're taking all that in.
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But, you know, conversely, and this is where
our industry comes in, understanding who those
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consumers are and what brought them there and
what their goals were, are not only in terms of
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00:04:10,314 --> 00:04:13,939
functional outcomes, but also emotional
outcomes.
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Because one thing that we realize, the
majority, the vast majority of decisions that
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consumers make are based on emotions and
desired emotional state.
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So that's really key as well.
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Throw into this mix that consumers today make
most of their decisions based not on
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advertising, but on the reviews and feedback
that they get from other people.
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And technology just fuels this.
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So if you ask a group of people, what do you
trust more?
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A third party review from somebody you've never
met, or an advertisement from a company,
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overwhelmingly, they point to the reviews.
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And the reviews are the results of people's
experiences.
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So now businesses have a vested interest in the
quality of the experiences they deliver,
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because customers are making decisions based on
desired emotional states.
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They're making decisions largely on the quality
of the experience.
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That's a huge thing.
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And if a company does good or does well in that
endeavor, then customers say good things about
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them, which will impact the decisions of other
people.
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And that's not even taking into consideration
the value of customer loyalty and what that
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means in terms of consumer spending over the
years and how they influence other people.
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So this is really what we've seen in the past
thirty years, I guess, is a move away from a
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very product centric transactional business
model that's around here.
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We're going to develop this product.
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We're gonna market the heck out of it.
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We're gonna sell a lot.
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We're gonna make a lot of money.
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And it's more about understanding when people
set out on experiences, what are they trying
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accomplish?
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And what are its nuances, not just in the
functionality?
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Like, you know, I always like to talk about
restaurants.
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It's not just the quality of the food, but it's
the environment in which it's provided, right?
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And the mood that that sets.
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It's the people in which we engage in.
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And that can change based on the context.
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Are you meeting?
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Are you on a date?
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Is it a family reunion?
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And it's really understanding that and being
able to deliver on it and adapt to it makes
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what we do.
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00:06:37,819 --> 00:06:44,779
So you did mention things of we've had these
swings and things that have really driven our
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field for about ten, fifteen years.
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It was about surveys and measurements, NPS
scores and customer effort scores.
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00:06:53,745 --> 00:06:59,985
And we're hearing all about AI and the use of
AI in different aspects of the experience from
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research, data collection, data analysis.
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We hear a lot about chat baits and generative
AI being used by call centers.
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In fact, I wouldn't even call it a
conversation, but I had an interaction with a
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computer for about ten minutes.
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Didn't fully get things resolved.
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And that's one of the issues.
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So one of the things we're facing as an
industry right now is a lot of these decisions
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are being made based on cost savings or the
belief that organizations are gonna save money
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by using AI.
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But unfortunately, the majority of AI
initiatives and experience management aren't
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meeting their ROI projections.
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So I think we're still in a state of flux.
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But AI is here to stay.
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And if used properly, it makes people more
productive, and we'll be able to do a better
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job in experience management.
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So you're talking about reviews.
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Right?
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I I was at an event recently.
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We were talking about Reddit, for instance.
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Yep.
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And the impact on things like Reddit and Quora
and marketing now, how much more the impact of
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YouTube is with engagement, those types of
things.
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And now you throw in that little splice that
you just gave in about the AI kind of bot
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that's kind of maybe dealing with a lot of
things because companies are implementing it.
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So if I let's say I go to a high end
restaurant, I have an expectation, like you
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said, if I'm gonna spend a couple $100 for a
nice meal to feel a certain way.
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But let's say something's off.
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Right?
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Maybe I've gone there a lot.
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The odds are the more likely I'm gonna kinda
not I've gotta kinda shelve it under onetime
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experience.
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Do you find that in this economy right now, are
people still more likely to stay with a brand
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that they've always liked if there's a one off,
or are they more likely to kind of be reactive
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and go in, you know, write the review and those
types of things?
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So a couple things going on here.
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I'm glad you touched on this area because I
enjoy it.
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The reality is we wanna be in monogamous
relationships with brands we can trust.
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Right?
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And the the reality is, to your point, the
longer we're in a relationship, the higher is
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the trust.
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So two things happen here.
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One, we're more forgiving.
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So it's like, you know, your point, you go,
that was a one off.
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The other thing that happens is because we
value that relationship so much, and we want to
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see it endure, and we want to see them do well,
oftentimes we'll provide feedback because we
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want it fixed.
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As opposed to the person who hasn't been there
very long, they see a mistake and they go,
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Well, I'm not coming here anymore.
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I'm gonna go someplace else.
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To that point, you know, technology has lowered
switching costs.
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So when you think about what it used to take to
find alternatives and evaluate them, it was a
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very laborious, you know?
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You had to go to the yellow pages.
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Remember those?
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Tomorrow, you're gonna learn.
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There's no internet.
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Where are you gonna learn about the food
quality?
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Switching costs were so much higher.
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When you try another restaurant, well, where
are you gonna go and why?
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00:10:09,325 --> 00:10:11,644
Well, now you can do like I do.
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I go to my phone.
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My favorite search feature is restaurants near
me.
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And I go through there, I look at the high
scoring, and I look it's important to invest in
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the relationship with your customers, and to
consistently offer repeated satisfactory
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encounters, which means you need to know what
they expect and why, and you need to be able to
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deliver on that consistently.
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And technology can help you to do that, but you
gotta be able to deliver at a high level,
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right?
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And that's why I still think there's a strong
desire for human interaction.
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Technology can do certain things.
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It doesn't need to be at a high end restaurant.
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I go to Panera quite often and use their app to
great advantage for ordering and tracking and
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rewards points and things like that.
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00:11:02,795 --> 00:11:10,795
But where they often fail is maybe because of
staffing shortages come up and there will be a
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note on the door excusing the service today
because they're shorthand.
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So as an organization, if you go all in on
technology, you ignore your people and the
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internal processes that drive employee
engagement, how they feel about their job and
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how they feel about the organization, you can
fail in that way too.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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Don't
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And I've been like, you know, well, of course,
I talk about the ROR, right, which is all about
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relationship.
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Like, you know, it's so common.
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It's one thing it's one thing too, like, with
your management.
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I often talk about with employees.
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They may have a beef, or they may have a
disgruntled kind of perspective or
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diametrically opposed kind of position from
yourself and kind of what the vision and the
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mission is for the environment.
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But I think it's sometimes listening to a
different perspective, which may have validity.
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It doesn't mean it needs to be negated
altogether.
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00:12:03,065 --> 00:12:07,304
But it's when you kind of like, I was recently
talking to somebody about the generations in
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the workforce at present, right, and the newer
generation and how they are coming from working
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and leading from a different spacing.
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We we call them entitled or they're coming in
and they have different goals, say, compared to
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the baby boomers or stuff like that.
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00:12:21,790 --> 00:12:24,990
And, ultimately, you're still having to manage
all those individuals.
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And you wanna lead them to success, obviously,
to your brand or whatever.
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How open do you think from the companies that
you're dealing with that are very successful to
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that diametrically opposed position with some
of the different decision making.
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Yeah.
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I would say not that they're diametrically
opposed.
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Maybe the value system is different, but not in
a bad way.
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You know, what I've seen the younger generation
is they put a higher value on quality of life.
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Our generation, we just work way too hard.
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Know, I admire the younger generation for that.
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You know, my daughter, you know, in terms of
her physical health, her mental health, and
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she's much more well rounded.
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I think that's a good thing.
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00:13:07,539 --> 00:13:15,299
I guess the overriding principle for me is if
you have a truly customer centric organization,
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or maybe you don't call it customer centric,
but everyone wants to feel like they're part of
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something bigger than themselves, right?
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They want to feel that what they do every day
matters.
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00:13:26,384 --> 00:13:32,304
And I would argue maybe the younger generation
feels that more than my generation did.
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Particularly if you're a customer centric
organization, it's easier to make that
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connection, right?
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Whether you work in accounting or you work a
frontline role, if I understand you as an
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individual and why you're there, what you're
hoping to get out of your work, And I'm helping
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to develop you in that role and show you a path
forward, but also help you to understand how
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you're part of a greater group of people that's
here to understand and meet the needs of their
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customers in a meaningful way.
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00:14:04,180 --> 00:14:09,779
Now, isn't that worth getting out of bed for
every day and going to work?
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00:14:09,779 --> 00:14:16,705
As opposed to not knowing, which is often the
case that I've seen, where employees don't know
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00:14:16,705 --> 00:14:22,225
much about the vision or mission or direction
of their organization or its values or how they
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fit in.
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00:14:23,105 --> 00:14:30,465
And you think about how that affects your
psyche and leaves you open to leaving when
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things go wrong.
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Companies should be in the business of serving,
understanding and serving the needs of their
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customers.
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And being profitable allows them to continue to
do so.
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I think if I work for a company like that, and
that's how we operate every day, I'd feel
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pretty good about what we do.
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And my research has shown that.
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I've run measurement scales, internal samples
and organizations, multiple organizations,
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measure customer centricity and employee
engagement.
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00:15:04,549 --> 00:15:09,669
And not surprisingly, they're very highly
correlated on many dimensions.
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Because I think that resonates with people,
whether it's the younger generation or the
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older generation, maybe more so with the
younger generation.
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I think you're right.
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But that's where we come down to leadership or
management levels or supervisory.
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And, you know, the frontline people are so key
fundamentally.
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Right?
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00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:34,019
And they are touching the customer that's
walking through that door if it's a physical
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environment or if it's a digital environment.
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There's still a feel that you wanna experience.
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And, you know Exactly.
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When I was an executive in health and wellness,
for instance, huge company.
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And, you know, oftentimes, when I would get
concerns about the quality of service, you
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know, initially, I would deal with them alone,
Tom, because it was a smaller company.
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You know, my accountant were attached to me.
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The how much the company had grown.
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00:16:10,684 --> 00:16:17,325
But what ended up happening is the quality of
that touch point when there was a concern got
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00:16:17,325 --> 00:16:19,804
removed from myself as the executive.
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00:16:20,205 --> 00:16:27,549
So the length of time that it sometimes took to
resolution got longer, and clients would, you
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00:16:27,549 --> 00:16:28,909
know, just be horrified.
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Right?
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Like, I mean, someone's been sitting on a line.
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For instance, they're calling in for
psychological service.
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00:16:34,110 --> 00:16:37,070
Hopefully, they've been triaged, and there's
nothing physical, but, generally, it wasn't
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any, you know, critical.
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But they still would time the the length of
time oftentimes.
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And into the contract, some things would say it
has to be within a certain times.
256
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And then every quarter, as they increase the
suppose supposedly efficiency of quality
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assurance, the length of time got longer and
longer to resolution.
258
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Yep.
259
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So you had these absent companies freaking out.
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Right?
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And we would obviously try to kind of address
things.
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But what was most important in me, myself, as
the executive running the accounts was the
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relationship I had.
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So I could pick up that phone and say, well,
you know, when Tom called in, you know, from
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Buffalo, you know, the wait times were black.
266
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This is what happened.
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This is what we've done to address it.
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But because there were so many levels, by the
time that I got to people already peeved.
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So I couldn't by the time the explanation would
have gotten to them, they were already saying,
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when your other customers do clients do this,
please do this, and then it ended up being a
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big thing.
272
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So with bigger companies today, what are they
doing to address kind of that lag time?
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Okay.
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We have systems, like you said, AI.
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Right?
276
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But are there certain things that you're seeing
that's working and that's not working out
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there?
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Yeah.
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Well, it all comes back to the fundamental
principles for complaint handling and
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resolution.
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First of all, people want interactional
justice.
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They want to feel that what they're coming to
you with is understood and it's valued.
283
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So they want apologies.
284
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They want you to take ownership of it, right?
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Be understanding.
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It's hard to do that with technology in a
meaningful way.
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Particularly people figure out they're talking
to a computer.
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You know?
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They're like, okay.
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Whatever.
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You know?
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Am I talking to a human today or wherever?
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Right?
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Yeah.
295
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They want procedural justice.
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Make it easy for me to do this.
297
00:18:32,585 --> 00:18:38,345
And part of that procedural justice is
informing people of wait times.
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00:18:38,664 --> 00:18:42,904
It's saying what you're seeing a lot with
technology now is we can call you back.
299
00:18:42,904 --> 00:18:45,144
Would you like to be called back at this
number?
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Now, you think about that.
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00:18:46,529 --> 00:18:50,210
Now all of sudden, I can hang up the phone and
go back to what I was doing.
302
00:18:50,210 --> 00:18:52,450
I can forget about it, right?
303
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And then they call me back.
304
00:18:53,809 --> 00:18:56,450
So that's really key, procedural justice.
305
00:18:56,450 --> 00:19:00,714
And then distributive justice is a resolution
fair.
306
00:19:01,035 --> 00:19:06,875
And I think it's understanding the extent, the
amount of damage that's been caused.
307
00:19:07,035 --> 00:19:09,595
And it's not always about giving things away.
308
00:19:09,674 --> 00:19:15,329
Often it's just answering their question or
providing them with a solution that meets the
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problem that they came to you with.
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00:19:18,210 --> 00:19:24,130
And sometimes you can do that with technology,
with chatbots and so forth, with a large enough
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00:19:24,130 --> 00:19:30,794
database, they're able to identify the
appropriate solution pretty quick.
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00:19:30,875 --> 00:19:37,994
But two of the biggest reasons why AI
initiatives and contact centers don't meet
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00:19:37,994 --> 00:19:41,755
their ARYI is from a lack of sufficient data.
314
00:19:42,299 --> 00:19:46,779
So you ask a question and it queries, I don't
have an answer to that question right now.
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00:19:46,779 --> 00:19:49,900
Or you may want to, well, that just frustrates
you more, right?
316
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Or a failure to integrate with existing
systems.
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00:19:54,224 --> 00:20:02,304
So I think oftentimes organizations rush into
this a little too fast with cost savings as the
318
00:20:02,304 --> 00:20:07,505
primary driver rather than improving the
quality of the outcomes.
319
00:20:07,505 --> 00:20:11,079
And that should always be their primary focus.
320
00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:11,479
Right?
321
00:20:11,799 --> 00:20:18,679
So I think that's you know, there's a potential
there, but it's a matter of melding both
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00:20:18,679 --> 00:20:23,719
technology and humanity and human beings in
that conversation.
323
00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:24,519
And I think
324
00:20:24,679 --> 00:20:25,720
And we're not there yet.
325
00:20:25,904 --> 00:20:28,304
Well, not a lot of companies We're way off.
326
00:20:28,785 --> 00:20:33,184
Well, a lot of companies are trying to get to
it quicker and implementing and thinking about
327
00:20:33,184 --> 00:20:37,345
this broad brush of of we're gonna just
implement all the AI strategies, and it's good
328
00:20:37,345 --> 00:20:42,119
to they're feeling the human the human the
human element is getting lost.
329
00:20:42,519 --> 00:20:47,000
And, you know, with the human element being
lost, then they they perceive that that's gonna
330
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,359
address all the concerns.
331
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,640
Like you said, their bottom line is gonna be
you know, a certain amount's gonna be shaved
332
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:52,839
off, and we'll be all good.
333
00:20:52,839 --> 00:20:58,224
And then you have your massive your human
capital kinda leaving and going out in droves
334
00:20:58,224 --> 00:21:01,184
because they're like, you know, when you're
working for a company, you're getting
335
00:21:01,184 --> 00:21:04,144
consistence, like, for for this particular
company.
336
00:21:04,305 --> 00:21:09,099
After a while, they had grown so quick in such
a short period of time, so they didn't kind of
337
00:21:09,099 --> 00:21:12,940
plan proactively for the the extent of their
growth.
338
00:21:12,940 --> 00:21:17,819
Unfortunately, as the leaders got deeper with
myself as an executive, the complaints were the
339
00:21:17,819 --> 00:21:18,299
same.
340
00:21:18,299 --> 00:21:22,545
And then you're just hoping that you can rely
on the relationship.
341
00:21:22,545 --> 00:21:25,025
But after a while, you can't go back and say,
I'm so sorry.
342
00:21:25,025 --> 00:21:29,345
By the way, we've chopped a minute off, but now
something else has gone awry.
343
00:21:29,345 --> 00:21:34,019
So I think it's looking at what strategies are
you gonna implement because you're looking at
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00:21:34,019 --> 00:21:34,740
the outcomes.
345
00:21:34,740 --> 00:21:38,259
And then how is your faithful customers that
are gonna stay with you?
346
00:21:38,259 --> 00:21:43,139
They're still gonna be upset if now the quality
kind of dips at a certain level as well.
347
00:21:43,139 --> 00:21:43,700
Absolutely.
348
00:21:44,835 --> 00:21:49,394
Now I know you are the were the a a timeline
crutch for you today.
349
00:21:49,554 --> 00:21:55,234
But based on the economy today and for
companies that are really, really looking to
350
00:21:55,794 --> 00:22:02,380
hold on to what business is and really continue
to strive to increase business and keep the
351
00:22:02,380 --> 00:22:06,139
good customers that they have at present and
attract new?
352
00:22:06,299 --> 00:22:10,940
Are there a couple of points that companies
should be thinking about on the customer
353
00:22:10,940 --> 00:22:13,275
experience end to insurance?
354
00:22:13,275 --> 00:22:13,674
Well,
355
00:22:15,115 --> 00:22:17,595
you know, first of all, look at your core
competencies.
356
00:22:17,595 --> 00:22:19,194
Don't look for quick fixes.
357
00:22:19,674 --> 00:22:24,875
You know, truly understand what it means to be
a customer centric organization in terms of
358
00:22:24,875 --> 00:22:29,929
your day to day operating practice and how
customer experience management fits into that.
359
00:22:30,330 --> 00:22:32,490
Invest in qualitative research.
360
00:22:33,049 --> 00:22:36,970
There are so many limitations to survey data,
so many.
361
00:22:37,130 --> 00:22:39,289
Invest in qualitative research.
362
00:22:39,690 --> 00:22:44,974
We still need to do depth interviews, whether
they're done virtually or in person.
363
00:22:45,295 --> 00:22:49,855
Take the time to understand where your
customers are coming from and what they're
364
00:22:49,855 --> 00:22:51,134
trying to accomplish.
365
00:22:51,454 --> 00:22:59,730
And create purposely driven experiences that
are focused on both functional and emotional
366
00:22:59,730 --> 00:23:01,489
outcomes for the consumer.
367
00:23:02,130 --> 00:23:06,849
And be conscious of the clues that I've laid
out in every touchpoint and how do they
368
00:23:06,849 --> 00:23:07,730
reinforce that?
369
00:23:07,730 --> 00:23:09,169
How are they moving them closer?
370
00:23:09,424 --> 00:23:12,704
Whether it's an insurance product, you name it.
371
00:23:12,704 --> 00:23:13,984
It could be anything, right?
372
00:23:13,984 --> 00:23:15,825
There's a reason why I go to Panera.
373
00:23:15,825 --> 00:23:16,784
It's not the coffee.
374
00:23:16,784 --> 00:23:17,744
The coffee's good.
375
00:23:17,744 --> 00:23:22,544
But it's because the environment provides me
with a setting where I can work and relax and
376
00:23:22,625 --> 00:23:23,345
everything, right?
377
00:23:23,670 --> 00:23:26,470
So you got to be conscious of all that.
378
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:28,630
And then continuously improve.
379
00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:34,470
Customer needs and desires are changing
constantly, as is their ability to utilize
380
00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:35,349
technology.
381
00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:43,434
And then maybe the last thing is utilize
technology to improve your core competencies.
382
00:23:43,994 --> 00:23:47,115
Not to save money, but to make you more
productive.
383
00:23:47,115 --> 00:23:48,474
You'll be more profitable.
384
00:23:48,794 --> 00:23:56,179
But choosing and using AI, it has to come based
on what is it gonna help you to improve and how
385
00:23:56,660 --> 00:23:58,259
and not cost savings.
386
00:23:58,259 --> 00:23:58,740
Right?
387
00:23:58,740 --> 00:23:59,700
Not cost savings.
388
00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:00,660
Not the bottom line.
389
00:24:00,580 --> 00:24:02,180
The not the bottom line again.
390
00:24:02,180 --> 00:24:02,740
Yep.
391
00:24:03,299 --> 00:24:08,865
So for people that are wanting to learn more
now that we have you have a conference coming
392
00:24:08,865 --> 00:24:09,345
up.
393
00:24:09,345 --> 00:24:09,825
Yep.
394
00:24:09,825 --> 00:24:11,585
You wanna tell people a little bit about it.
395
00:24:11,585 --> 00:24:14,224
I'm also a keynote speaker at the event.
396
00:24:14,625 --> 00:24:18,670
Tom, tell people a little bit about it if they
want are interested in signing up and learning
397
00:24:18,670 --> 00:24:19,309
more about it.
398
00:24:19,309 --> 00:24:19,549
Sure.
399
00:24:19,549 --> 00:24:22,109
Well, they can learn more about me on LinkedIn.
400
00:24:22,109 --> 00:24:24,109
I'm Tom DeWitt, PhD.
401
00:24:24,109 --> 00:24:25,710
I think I'm the only one there.
402
00:24:26,109 --> 00:24:27,950
The Exm Global Collaborative.
403
00:24:28,190 --> 00:24:34,305
There, they can learn more or they can go to
our website, www.xmgc.org.
404
00:24:34,545 --> 00:24:38,785
And there they can learn about our conference,
the XM Global three sixty.
405
00:24:40,705 --> 00:24:48,909
We're offering two programs Hemisphere
beginning in Hanoi at 9AM on May 21.
406
00:24:49,149 --> 00:24:54,909
And then the Western Hemisphere at 9AM Eastern
Standard Time in New York City.
407
00:24:56,109 --> 00:24:58,674
Three forty five minute sessions.
408
00:24:58,674 --> 00:25:04,515
Each one you can choose from one of four to
five different sessions.
409
00:25:04,515 --> 00:25:06,034
So people have choices.
410
00:25:06,355 --> 00:25:08,434
And all the sessions are recorded.
411
00:25:09,394 --> 00:25:10,835
So you'll be able to watch them.
412
00:25:10,835 --> 00:25:14,650
You have up to thirty days platform to watch
your recordings.
413
00:25:15,370 --> 00:25:20,250
And if you become a member of the
collaborative, you can can watch them through
414
00:25:20,250 --> 00:25:23,609
your member portal that every member has.
415
00:25:23,930 --> 00:25:24,490
Awesome.
416
00:25:25,184 --> 00:25:27,105
Well, Tom, thanks so much for your time.
417
00:25:27,105 --> 00:25:33,024
And I also have the privilege, like I said, on
presenting on the elements of relationship and
418
00:25:33,024 --> 00:25:38,304
the bottom line, the ROR, which is the return
versus the investment.
419
00:25:38,304 --> 00:25:43,990
So I will be putting a link in the show notes
so that if you're interested in attending and
420
00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:49,909
and signing up and and joining the the
collaborative, that would be a great thing.
421
00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:51,589
So, again, Tom, thanks so much.
422
00:25:51,589 --> 00:25:52,470
And for everybody
423
00:25:52,309 --> 00:25:53,190
Thank you, Roxanne.
424
00:25:53,515 --> 00:25:54,154
Thank you.
425
00:25:54,154 --> 00:25:59,275
Anybody looking to connect about the ROR
masterclass, just reach out to me at Roxanne at
426
00:25:59,275 --> 00:26:02,634
Roxanne Durhodge dot com for more details.
427
00:26:02,634 --> 00:26:04,154
Again, thank you, Tom.
428
00:26:04,154 --> 00:26:05,194
And, everyone, take care.
429
00:26:05,194 --> 00:26:06,154
We'll talk to you soon.
430
00:26:06,154 --> 00:26:06,634
Bye bye.
431
00:26:06,634 --> 00:26:07,035
Take care.
432
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:08,960
Thanks, Roxanne.
433
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:14,880
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living with
Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
434
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:15,920
healthy change.
435
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,319
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,
and coach.
436
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:26,144
To work with Roxanne, visit
roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
437
00:26:26,305 --> 00:26:30,225
We'll see you next time on Authentic Living
with Roxanne.
