Kevin Whitsell: So let's just stop lying to ourselves. we throw around words like brotherhood, honor, print them on t shirts, and pretend everything is fine. But really, behind the station doors, sometimes there can be this internal friction that quietly eats our departments alive from the inside out. We tell ourselves we're invincible, but Nobody wants to talk about the mental and emotional bill that comes due when you spend 15 years in a high volume first fight on the fire ground. We train our people to aggressively win the first five minutes of a disaster, yet we
Angel Deaton: Thanks.
Kevin Whitsell: leave them completely defenseless against the quiet darkness that creeps in when the shift's over. Tonight we're dragging out the raw truth of the dark. We're sitting down with a veteran fire service officer from the Houston, Texas area who spent 15 years operating in high stakes, low manpower trenches of high volume public safety. His name's Heath Meredith. From frontline rookie and engine operator to captain to ride up battalion chief and training officer. Heath has lived the relentless reality of short staffed rigs and rural water challenges. He is an expert in the fire ground decision making, a sought-after speaker on firehouse culture, and the founder of the Third Alarm Cowboys, a movement built to bridge generational gaps and return the code of true accountability to the service. For years, Heath has been the architect of elite performance on the street, teaching hard, controversial conversations required to keep a firefighter successful off the clock. If you come here looking for these comfortable, safe, soft platitudes and excuses, you may want to find somewhere else to go listen to something. But if you're tired of the internal politics, if your firehouse morale is running on empty, and if you are searching for an unshakable mindset to survive the psychological demands of this life, you need to pull up a chair. Because the absolute toughest fist fight you will ever step into past the threshold of burning buildings is the battle to save the human behind the badge. Welcome back to A Silent World Within. And today, making her podcast debut is our perfect, impressive, amazing social
Angel Deaton: You
Kevin Whitsell: media manager and guest relations person, liaison, whatever your title is officially
Angel Deaton: Ha
Kevin Whitsell: on the website. so happy to have you with us. Heath, thank you for stepping in with us. Thank you for coming to our firehouse table kind of conversation. How are you today?
heathmeredith: I'm doing good, man. you definitely make me sound a whole lot cooler than what I really am. So I appreciate that.
Kevin Whitsell: Well well, I generally like to do that to my guest and myself. when I tell these stories and write these kind of intros and write the stories that we publish in Dark Horse Press, it it has to be a little cinematic. It has to grab the attention. So I really love doing
Angel Deaton: Yes.
Kevin Whitsell: it and and you meet all the check marks. Everything on there is true. So Angel, you can go into your part and
Angel Deaton: Yes.
Kevin Whitsell: and Let's get into it.
Angel Deaton: People are so excited to have you. I'm a little fangirling over here. My guys are gonna be so excited to hear your story firsthand. So we know when the firemen see a mental health podcast or a mental health clip or a mental health article in the paper that automatically scroll by, they pass it. They're like, oh, no, that's me. I'm good. Tell me why. It was important to you to say yes, to come join us and that that's a passion of yours.
heathmeredith: probably because I'm one of those guys. and
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: basically just in in full transparency for your listeners and everything, like I I'm an open book on everything. We're probably gonna talk about all kinds of stuff on this, on this podcast that most people maybe not even be comfortable with. And in starting that, like just in full transparency on my end, due to a lot of the things we may even talk about on this show, I all the ranks that you laid out, like I've held all those ranks, none of that is is made up. And then actually about, I guess, three years ago, I ended up going and starting over as a rookie. And so I'm back down to a firefighter rank. So even after 15 years in the job and I've been a captain nearly nine at that point, I went went to another department for a better climate for honestly for my head and for my family to be better and started over and rookied again at 34 years old. So if people, you know, listen to this, whatever, they're like, he's not a current captain. I'm no, I'm not a current captain. I was one for a long time. but yeah, my current rank is back to me in firefighter, and it goes along with a lot of of the mental health stuff. So I think that the fire service as a whole does a really good job this day and age about acknowledging that our mental health is is actually a thing. one of my very close friends is retired from the Marine Corps, and he said when he was actually getting out of the Marine Corps. They were doing their, I guess you call it like debrief orientation to like coming back to civilian life. And they were it the the military was giving like their big spiel on, you know, yeah, PTSD is a real thing. People are highly recognizing it with our military vets, especially after 20 years of of combat, you know, especially if you're in combat arms like he was and everything. but also understand that, and they're telling Marines that when you come out into civilian world. The guys that are actually suffering the most from PTSD and don't get recognized for it at all is actually the fire department because they are in it. And not only are they in it, but they're in it in their own community. So whether they're on duty or off duty, they're always in it.
Angel Deaton: one
heathmeredith: And so when he told me that, I was like, dang, man, that's that's like a real deal. So our military is recognizing it, but the fire service as a whole, man, like we are the absolute worst. And I've seen every 1-800 call me. Post on everybody's Facebook, you know, the Chiefs of the world's best about trying to prove we care about our firefighters'
Angel Deaton: Ha
heathmeredith: mental health. But then in turn, you know, we're doing things like what our last episode ended up getting bumped because, you know, I got to work overtime. So we'll mandatory people, you know, three, four days a week and not think that that has anything to do with mental health. But then we want to post on our Facebook pages for our departments how important mental health is to our firefighters. So for me, it's almost become a point where, and like in in full caveat, like going into all this. I do have a lot of things that that I'm very hyper-vigilant about that's in my mind that I'm paranoid about. that things that mess with me, I'll say that. And it's honest to God, not the blood in the guts from this this job. It's it's not the calls that get me. It's the inside the firehouses that get me and have me, I don't want to say messed up because I haven't controlled or anything like that, but what get me spun up is the the crisis of what our fire departments are doing. So that was really kind of what's made it where I'm like, fine, I'll be the guy to step up and say like what we got going on. And so I don't know if that answers your question, but that's kind of where the turning point for me was is over the last three to four to five years where it's like, hey, it's a whole lot more mental health is a whole lot more than just like the the touchy feely articles that people want to put out. There's a so much more to it
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: that somebody's got to say something.
Angel Deaton: Was there a point that that made you realize that maybe it was better to have these conversations like this across the kitchen table versus in the clinical standpoint or the clinical view? Because a lot of times I know that our guys need to hear that, somebody else feels the way I do. Was there a point that made you realize that?
heathmeredith: Probably not one, like specifically. It was probably like a culmination of a lot of different things. So like I've had friends that killed themselves. I've had friends that almost killed themselves. and a lot of time like it almost like reflection, like time periods of reflection, like after somebody kills themselves and you're like, How could they do this? you know, and you're just like totally confused and and then you start looking back over, say, the last three, four years that you were working with these guys, there was signs all along. Like it was not It you didn't recognize it because you're in the shit with them. Sorry. you're in the middle of it with them.
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: And but then it's like, man, they said this to me a year ago and I didn't catch it. They were doing this a year ago, I didn't catch it. And I I'm one of those guys that I really like to simplify because I think life is way overcomplicated. I think everybody tries to put like a a super special spin on everything so that they can make their million bucks. And like for me, I simplify everything down. Where it's like, you know, if a One of my good friends. I went to high school with this guy. He left, he was two years ahead of me. He left, went to the Marine Corps, fought in Fallujah, came back, did what a lot of those guys do, searching for brotherhood, searching for camaraderie, comes to the fire department, was a badass medic. And then I I guess throughout some time period, maybe 10 years of him coming back home after all that stuff, he started having a lot of mental struggles and whatnot. And I specifically remember him telling me multiple times, man, I'm thinking about going to re-enlisting because What I had in the core, I can't get. I thought I'd get at the fire department, but I can't get. I feel alone. I don't feel that brotherhood. And he would say that all the time, and I would just be like, no, man, it's fine. Like, you know, the crew you're with, or yeah, the chief sucks, things like that, but I didn't catch it. And then he ended up killing himself after a few years. And then now looking back, I'm like, he was telling me all along that he was missing something. you know, and I just in the middle of it, I didn't catch it. And I working in places you do. Sorry if I'm being too long-winded on this, but like working in places where you're really busy and you make a lot of runs, you make
Kevin Whitsell: You're perfect.
heathmeredith: a lot of fires, you kind of become accustomed to the dark side, if you will. life gets kind of dark in a lot of ways. For one, like we were talking before we started, like you get very fatigued, you get very run down, burnout becomes an issue. and then you work for a place where you're getting mandatory, mandatory, mandatory, and it just it's like it's a never ending cycle. You're so caught in the middle of the mud that you can't see what's going on around you. And I think that's where I was
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: at that point in time. So I didn't recognize where he was or where some of my other friends were. that was one story, I guess, per se, that was kind of a wake-up call. And then another has been doing my podcast. one of my original episodes, I had one of my very good friends on, which is Captain RJ Nepp. And he was going through like a really bad divorce. Lot of stuff, custody, all the typical crap that firemen got to go through because we make bad choices.
Angel Deaton: Have fun.
heathmeredith: And he told a story on there where he had a suicide attempt. And he literally said to me in there, like, I went to work to escape my reality because I could go be, I could go solve somebody else's problems when I'm on the clock, but I can't solve my own problems at home. And he
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: he literally used that as an escape, and he did it for years. and I was like, It was like a just, you know, a huge light bulb. I'm like, dude, I'm no different. I was doing the same. It's easier for me to go to work and work 96 hours on an ambulance making 20 runs a day than it is to be home when I was going through my divorce. And so like a lot of those things just for me, it's almost like looking back, you know, hindsight's 2020, you could see a lot. So there was just like example after example after example where I'm like, it this really is a real thing and somebody's got to get out ahead of it.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, absolutely. I
Angel Deaton: Okay, Kevin.
Kevin Whitsell: Well, I think that you bring up some extremely valid points, man. I resonate with a lot of that. I went through a divorce. I can't even remember the year now off the top of my head, I think it's two thousand thirteen, but I was working ninety six hours on an ambulance and that's kinda how I treated the ambulance service was that hey, that was my getaway. And really coped in that time very unhealthy. I never had a a suicide attempt. certainly got low enough to think about it and thought numerous times about, hey, I'll just alcohol poison myself. I'll drink until, you know, I can't drink anymore. And hopefully that'll get the job done. But really it was more the alcoholism for me during that time in my life that man, I was just hammering, hammering away. And really it was it was to get that getaway right. It was it was to have that relief of I'm so drunk I don't have to think about this and I can finally go to sleep. I can finally rest. So yeah, I mean I I can totally see that. But so one of the things that I think Third Alarm Cowboys does really well is it brings an immediate image of this rugged, independent firefighter. Like you are like just looking at you when I first jumped on the screen, I was like, this is a man's man here. Like this is the guy.
Angel Deaton: Hahaha!
Kevin Whitsell: You know, and you laugh at that, but really that that is the image that that firefighters give typically. I don't know if you've sorry. Travis Howes just released a book not long ago and it's amazing, but to hear him talk about like that that firehouse camaraderie that is just kind of naturally there, it does pull people into that world. But I think one of the things that people really don't take into account is that hey there's still a lot of old school like suck it up mentality in the fire service. So what is is kind of that moment for you that that you kind of realize like I can't get into this mindset. I have to do something different for myself.
heathmeredith: So I think it's a it's a double edged sword. I think that there's a time and place for everything. I think that that there is times where, you know, and and I'll be that guy. Like I am that John Lane guy. I was raised by my family, my grandpa's. I got basically two routes in in my family. You either got the fire service, you got the oil field. And of course, where I'm sitting right now, like you guys can see my my daughter's trophy saddle. I'm sitting on a 500-acre ranch in Texas and my cows are sitting right over there. I got to go feed them when we get off here. Like, I do have that background where it is like, hey, you got to suck it up. Cause there is times you got to. If you're on the fire ground and it sucks and it's hot because we're in Texas and you're on your second bottle, but the fire's not out yet. You haven't cleared your primary yet. You're exhausted, but there's nobody else coming, right? Or our mutual aid is already
Kevin Whitsell: Right. Yeah.
heathmeredith: here. There's nobody else coming. So at that point in time, it's like, yeah, we gotta suck it up. Like it sucks.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. yeah.
heathmeredith: You're, you know, you're gonna be chafed between your legs, your back's gonna be sore, like you're you're gonna hurt, but we have to do it now. But then there's also the other side of that knife where it's like, okay, but we just made, you know, and and I work in the hood for people that haven't like I've spent my entire career,
Angel Deaton: We've been there.
heathmeredith: yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, we've been there.
heathmeredith: I've spent my entire career working in the hood in Houston. And some of the highest crime rated areas in Texas. And so you see a lot of bad stuff. When you're in the middle of the chaos, like we made and it made, you know, national news and whatever, like we made a pretty bad shooting. or I'm sorry, yeah, we made a pretty bad shooting of a pediatric that was a drive-by incident, it was all over the news and all that kind of stuff. When you're in the middle of it, you gotta do your job. But then when you get back to the station
Kevin Whitsell: Right, sure.
heathmeredith: and like the chaos. To me, I think it's what messes a lot of people up because the chaos gets people so wound up they don't understand when that is actually supposed to turn off. you know, and like you gotta handle business in the middle of it. But when you come back to the station, and I I ask people in my lecture all the time, I'm like, when you talk about I talk about my brotherhood section and actually building a real brotherhood, everybody knows what that's that's like, like on the ambulance or whatever, you make a a gnarly ass PD call. And like coming back from the hospital after you dropped off or whatever, and like nobody says a word. You know, the engine is
Kevin Whitsell: Uh-huh.
heathmeredith: dead silent, the ambulance is dead silent. You're trying to process the chaos because you have to. you get back to the station, you go take your shower, you go kind of trying to debrief. You gotta let that chaos kind of come down. But that's the point whenever you can you can be like, all right, what now? What do we need to do now? And sometimes you may be at a station where like you don't get that opportunity. Like, boom, the next call comes in and we're right back
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: at it. We gotta go. And a lot of that stuff starts compounding. But at some point or another, that you still gotta go have that little bit if if you need the conversation. And like I'm I'm a very weird individual in the fact that there's very few calls where I do need to debrief, but I'm also the one to say, like, there is some that I do need to debrief. And it may not even be like a formal, you know. Critical incident stress management. Like I may not even need that whole deal, but like it's a bad pediatric call in which I run a call on a kid that fell
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: into the swim pool and drowned. My debrief I need is to go make a phone call to my wife for 15 minutes and let me hear my kids. Because I don't care
Kevin Whitsell: There we are.
heathmeredith: how good you are, I don't care how many years you've been in. When you run something that like I have a three-year-old child and I just ran a gnarly ass pediatric call on a three-year-old. I need to hear my baby's voice.
Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely.
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: And that's the debrief I need. Now, I'll be the first one to say I made three in one pay period. I made three pediatric drownings at my old department. Two of them we didn't get back, one we did get back. My kid was the same age at that time period as the ones that drowned. She did not go in a body of water that entire summer. Like I was like, we were scared of the lake, and I lived 20 minutes from one of the most beautiful lakes in Texas. We didn't go the lake. She didn't swim in the swimming pool. I had her like double life jacketed even with the little floaties on. Like, and I don't know if people understand that or not, but like that is PTSD. When you start projecting your fears of what you saw on the call on your own family, your kids, or whatever, like that is a form of the PTSD. And so it's taken me a lot to be able to process that and understand what it is. Like it's not, I don't need Oprah, I don't need Dr. Phil. I just need
Angel Deaton: Ha
heathmeredith: to be able to like know that my kids. It w didn't happen to my kid. and so for me, that's the debrief. Some people may actually need, like you run that gnarly ass call on a pediatric or or whatever, they may need to have like an actual team come in and talk to them. So it's kind of it's for me in the fire service, it's a lot of places, it's it's they're either all this or they're all that. It's all suck it up or it's all, hey, we gotta have Kumbaya session after every single call and we need to have. You know, the therapy dog come in. We got to have everything come in. There's no like nuance to it. There's no, hey, what works for you? Like, are you cool? Are you not? And that's a lot of that kind of comes into like the crew integrity stuff, which I could go way down the rabbit hole on that. But for me, that's kind of the deal is it's it's twofold on answering that question. There's times you gotta be a hard ass and suck it up because there's nobody else coming. And then there's times you need to handle your business and do what works for you on the debrief so that your brain can process things.
Kevin Whitsell: I absolutely love that answer. it's an angel note. Hey, no, no, no, no, no.
heathmeredith: And by no means, man, I am not a doctor. I'm not.
Angel Deaton: Yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: And you know, when we have doctors come on or we have doctors review our stuff from time to time, we really we really see such a myriad of answers and we really get to see the real clinical side of it as well. So no, definitely not a doctor answer, but it's an honest answer, and that's what we're looking for. I think that one of the things that we do really well, whether it be the fire service or EMS, there is this, and I like to think of it as the kitchen table effect. when everybody sits down to kinda kinda have a meal, there's a certain level of peer support that happens, right? whether we think of it that way or not, that is a an outflowing of some of those things. Why do you think that happens? Why do you think that there is such a relief when you sit down at that fire table and you start to just chat and things start to come out and people start obviously reliving calls and you get to kind of re experience it from a different vantage point.
heathmeredith: man, my favorite place to be at a fire station is at the kitchen table. Like we
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: I preach that big time. Any any station that doesn't have a good kitchen table is miss it honestly one of the biggest tools that you can have. because everything is discussed there. You know, you you start your day there, whether it's drinking coffee in the morning with the guys, which we do cheat a little bit at my station. We have a a really nice lounge out in the bay where we smoke cigars and stuff. But other than that, every other meeting session happens at the kitchen table. So I think
Kevin Whitsell: Right.
heathmeredith: because it's already like a known commonplace, you eat there together. you know, we the station, the crew that I'm with, we we cook our own meals. Like we're we're pretty big on on having that time. And it's not just the I think because it's everything is on the table there. Not only do you talk strategies and tactics, you know,
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: you you talk, you talk the shit on the chief there at the table, you know, you talk.
Kevin Whitsell: Ha ha
heathmeredith: we all joke, you know, we sit down for dinner and I don't care if we have dinner at 5 30 with the geriatric hours or if we've been running and we don't have dinner till nine o'clock, regardless of what crew you're on, the wives are always gonna somehow call when you sit down to eat. And so we'll
Angel Deaton: Yeah.
heathmeredith: you know, we take bets on well, whose wife's gonna call first, which it's usually mine. Like I swear to God, she can sense when I sit down at the table and I'm hungry. But,
Kevin Whitsell: Ha ha ha ha.
heathmeredith: you know, we joke about that stuff, but it's the truth. And then Every other thing that you talk about in some form or another is a version of the truth that's coming out. So just naturally, if you're already talking truth, whether it's family stuff, shit that's frustrating you with your kids, because your kids are driving
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: you nuts because it's summertime and you're ready for them to go back to school already, all that kind of stuff is already at the table.
Kevin Whitsell: Amen. Amen.
Angel Deaton: hahahaha
heathmeredith: So it's really easy for like other truths to come out. And I don't know, and and I could be wrong on this. I think one of the biggest injustice we do is is kind of and a lot of people will ask or whatever they'll say, like, you know, ask your guys if they're okay. Sometimes that's a little awkward. And I don't think we do a good job of actually like telling people like how to really do that. I think if you want to lead that kind of conversation, because it's like you don't come back to table and you sit back, you're like, Well, damn, what'd y'all think about that pediatric call? You know, that's you don't, I mean, but
Kevin Whitsell: Right.
Angel Deaton: No.
heathmeredith: But nobody ever really says, like, how do you, how do you even start that? And so I kind of think like, and and my captain is phenomenal at this because he's probably the most real, like real person, captain. Like a lot of captains were always kind of distant and stuff like that. Like he's
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: he's got kids that are the same age as my kids. We're he's only like three or four years older than me. We have a really good relationship. He's one of the guys that travels with me teaching. And like I he's my boss at the fire department, then I'm his boss with the Thur Warren Cowboys. So he's a very,
Angel Deaton: That's great.
heathmeredith: very, very real person to me. And he does a great job of we come to the table and like whatever, say we make a bad call or whatever, he he's usually the first one to kind of start the conversation and be like, you know, that I really didn't like how that happened. I really didn't like. That whatever. So I I hate coming back on pediatric, but I think that's that's kind of one of the only things that actually bothers me. But he's
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: like, he'll he'll be the one that's like openly, he's like, man, why does that stuff have to happen to kids? And so because he's sharing, it automatically makes everybody else start being like, okay. It's not like a pressured conversation of, are you okay, man? You know, and so like everybody's gonna be like, yeah, man, I'm good. But if you he comes to the table and he's like, Why is the why is it the little babies that got to drown? You know, that opens it up where it's like you're
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: already seeing his the thing that's bothering him. So I'm like, man, I don't know, dude, but this shit it it bothers me too. Like when I do get to heaven, that's gonna be the one the first questions I ask.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: And so I kind of think that maybe it's just my kitchen table that's got that vibe, but that's that's how it is. And so it really it opens up everything where the the kitchen table for us is. a hundred and fifty percent like truth. and and I I wish I hope every fire department can have that type of deal. I know that's not the case, but that's how it works for us. So
Kevin Whitsell: So I guess you bring up a good point. It you know, with a chief like that, and I guess I strive to be a leader who does a very similar thing. Like when there's tragedy or something that our team experiences, and I don't know if you know some of my background, but I'm a manager for a large pediatric and neonatal critical care team. so we go by air, ground, fixed wing jet all over the country if we need to. but really we see a lot of Especially here in Memphis. God, it's awful. we see a lot of child abuse cases, like a ton. So when we have those, those are particularly stressing for our folks. so I'll start a conversation very similar to like what your chief does. So why in that conversation are and I'm gonna pick on you firemen, but why are you firemen who walk into burning buildings every day and don't bat an eye? Why are you willing to share in that kind of atmosphere? Why are you willing to share there? But you're absolutely terrified to go into anybody that's professional help and share in that way.
heathmeredith: Mm, that's a good question.
Angel Deaton: Bye.
heathmeredith: I hate I hate trying to be able to be the one to answer for everybody, you know. I I could say for me, I don't necessarily have that problem, mainly because I have experience in dealing with professional settings. So, like, which I mean, my parents put me in when I was in high school because I was a mean kid and I loved to fight. So like I started having to deal with the shrink whenever I was in high school because they were they thought
Angel Deaton: Yeah.
heathmeredith: something was wrong with me. And after going to multiple anger management sessions and everything like that, like the the therapist or whatever he was. I I'm I'm I guess he is a psychologist, whatever, because he could write prescriptions. So I'm gonna assume he was not just a counselor, but he know tell my parents like, ain't nothing wrong with him. He's just mean. But
Angel Deaton: Thank
heathmeredith: for me, I I don't
Kevin Whitsell: Dang.
heathmeredith: I don't know
Angel Deaton: He's just a boy.
heathmeredith: I don't know if this is a good answer, but I guess maybe it's the the I don't want to say I'm accustomed to it because I don't go all the time. I've only been, I went whenever I was a kid, and then I went whenever I was going through a pretty gnarly divorce. I basically wanted to make sure that I was squared away. I think maybe it's a misconception or or a lack of education and understanding. Like you can go to that, that formal doctor, if you will, I call them that just a formal
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: doctor's office and like they're not gonna burn you. I think that firefighters trust other firefighters in a setting because they think that it's not gonna go anywhere. Because I'm like, hey, if I talk to my crew that also is having the same problems that ran the same call, I
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: know it's not gonna go anywhere because I got dirt on them and they got dirt on me. Whereas
Angel Deaton: Bye.
Kevin Whitsell: Ain't that the truth.
heathmeredith: they don't wanna go to to a doctor and talk because maybe they have the feeling that like somehow that's gonna get leaked and it's gonna end up screwing up their career. And I tie that together with my understanding of a lot of like the military guys that I've worked with, that they got out of military and they had back injuries, they had bodily injuries, but there was such a, there was a long time period where it's like, hey, if you have a back injury, like you, you can't, that's a disqualifier to get into the fire department. So they would lie about their back injury from military service so they could get that fire department job. And and ultimately where all that was all coming from is when those cases did happen. I wouldn't think they, I don't think they happened as much as people think they do, but they did happen. It was the doctor leaking that information back to the fire department, like, yeah, man, he's you know, he's got to hurt back from military
Angel Deaton: way.
heathmeredith: service. And and so, whatever, it would be a disqualifier, it would hurt them in their job. And so I would think maybe some of that is left over from that, and it's just maybe a an educational point that needs to happen. and then also maybe some. Some doctors need to have the understanding that, like, if we are opening ourselves up and coming in on this, like you can't burn us on it. You can't, even if the fire department, like my fire department does bring in counselors and stuff. And
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, yeah.
heathmeredith: I don't think that they leak it, but it looks really awkward when the fire chief is bringing in counselors to come in and talk to guys about drinking or drugs or things like that. Like I I know this because I've talked to the chief. He's bringing it in to try to help the guys. Because we've had a lot of alcohol alcohol related incidents at my department. But when the guys
Angel Deaton: Bye.
heathmeredith: see the chief is bringing in a doctor to come talk to you about addiction issues or mental
Angel Deaton: I don't know.
heathmeredith: health issues, but it's kind of sort of fire department sanctioned, there can be that that paranoia of, well, man, if I go in there and say that I'm drinking, you know, a a bottle of whiskey a day, they're gonna run back and tell the chief I'm drinking a bottle of whiskey a day. So I think a lot of that is kind of self-inflicted on why guys won't do it because they don't want to lose their
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: jobs. They don't want to get in trouble with their jobs. So it's easier for them to just not say anything in that setting. I know that's a long-winded answer, but that's just kind of what I think.
Kevin Whitsell: No, no, I no, I love it. I I love these long winded answers. You're doing great for podcast guests. I mean, I love the long winded. You take
heathmeredith: Yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: the spotlight away from me. I don't have to say as much. And the listeners love that too, because nobody likes listening to me
Angel Deaton: Yes.
Kevin Whitsell: talk. it's all about the guests, right? but I do, I think that's a really good answer. I think that it it is there's so much trust within not only the fire service, but every public servant kind of environment. And it is easier to talk to our brothers or our sisters, you know, that stand right beside us in all these calls. you know, I can have a conversation with Angel that I would not have with somebody in the general public. but I also think and one of the things that I experienced very early on in, you know, reaching out to someone for professional help, were soon after my divorce, it was not long. I overwhelmed the counselor. Like with some of the stuff that I'd seen and dealt with and was dealing with. And, you know, obviously I was going in with for support about my divorce, but once they start asking you all the questions like, What do you do for a living? Okay, what's that look like? You know, what do you experience in that? And you start talking about some of it, the counselor had no idea what to say. I mean, they're like, gosh, you know, how do you see this? So I think it's important that you, if you're gonna reach out for professional help, that you go to somebody who's trauma informed and you go to somebody who, if it's available in your area, somebody that works with first responders in some extent or has been a first responder themselves. And sometimes that's harder to find. And if you guys listen ever need those resources, please reach out to us so that we can provide that. We've got a state list. that we can get to you from every state that we've gotten from conferences and other things that are vetted counselors in each state that you can reach out to that that obviously in the day and age that we live in, technology is a fantastic thing and many of these counselors are now doing either only telehealth or they have the telehealth option to choose from. So, you know, you can get with a first responder trained counselor and think it's super important. But I think this this transitions well because The next part that Angel will kinda go into kind of plays into this a little bit. So Angel, I'll let you kind of take it away and go from kinda your standpoint and your specialty. So you can take that for
Angel Deaton: Thank
Kevin Whitsell: sure 'cause that's not mine.
Angel Deaton: So he's from a social media and public relations perspective. Like after starting Third Alarm Cowboys, how quickly did people start reaching out and who looked fine on beauty but were falling apart at home? Like at what point did they realize, hey, he gets it.
heathmeredith: Ooh, Pretty much almost immediate. So my first few episodes were were very inflammatory. and it was I've actually, you know, I'm 120-something episodes in now. So people kind of laugh at me when they go back and listen to the original stuff. For one, my my software and technology was not riverside, so it was absolutely horrendous. I don't even like listening to it because the audio
Angel Deaton: Thank
heathmeredith: quality was terrible. and it
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, same.
heathmeredith: was audio only. And so You know, and and a lot of the stuff, like I was, I was carrying a lot of anger for one, and I was kind of more or less trying to make a statement and a lot like people will listen to my stuff and they'd be like, if you don't like a a four-letter word, don't listen to my podcast. So I was very much so into that, and that grabbed a lot of attention. I mean, pretty much immediately. And I started talking about, which obviously I was talking about real life issues. But it was I honest to God, like within the first three episodes, I'm getting messages from guys talking about their divorce, talking about their fire chief, talking about their fire crew, talking about drug addiction, alcohol addiction. I mean, it was just, it was absolutely immediate. Where and guys would just, I mean, it it was almost I I you could go through my my my DMs on social media and Aside from the department they work for, their state that they're from, damn near everyone's story, which is now thousands and thousands of DMs, everyone's story is the same. And, you know, there there's little nuances in there, obviously, but everyone's story is the same. And it's like, Jesus, man, like, it was a major slap to the face for me that I'm like,
Angel Deaton: Mmm.
heathmeredith: I started off like basically trying to be a voice for like the guys I knew around the Houston area. And then within three episodes, I'm getting messages from coast to coast. And I'm like, for
Angel Deaton: Wow.
heathmeredith: well, man, I've never even been to Seattle, Washington. How the hell have you heard of this podcast? And it was just like
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: that. And so it was honestly, it was pretty much immediate. And it was that same deal. Like, you know, I'm dealing with this. thank you for for saying it, blah, blah, blah. I was going home every day and feeling like I was the only person on the planet. And then now I know there's two of us. And I'm like, well, no, actually, man, there's thousands of us. So
Angel Deaton: Right. Right.
heathmeredith: Pr pretty quick, I guess is the answer to that.
Angel Deaton: Yeah. So in real life situations, what does that peer support look like in the firehouse on the daily?
heathmeredith: For one, like, and I just released an article this week actually talking about what's what's crew integrity. And of course I immediately, it's like everything else, I got tons of tons of comments, tons of shares, tons of of reactions, whatever. And it was basically like the same answer over and over again. And, you know, I think, and I I I'm the guy to beat up Chiefs. I'm not, I'm not scared of beating up a chief. But I think that we get so caught up in the fire service, especially today's day and age where staffing is an issue everywhere. We can't hire enough medics. We can't hire when everybody's struggling. We're too busy trying to fill like payroll numbers and basically put asses in seats where we forget about that simple crew integrity. And it's like it's
Angel Deaton: No.
heathmeredith: it's it's very, very simple, but it's basically like the peer support comes in of actually knowing your guys. So like if I rode with y'all on a truck for you know, let's just say a month, I'm gonna start knowing how y'all tick. So, and especially you start riding like with me and my guys, we've been together three years now. And like, of course, obviously I kind of have a little bit of a heads up because we travel the country together. We spend a lot of time together with families and all that. But even if you took all that off the table, just riding with these guys every week for three years, I know what makes them tick. I know when they come walking in at night after we made a call or or the next morning and They sleep later than what they normally do. Okay. That means they're tired. When they come in and they work their other job that, you know, before shift and they're dragging ass, like I know they're tired. Little things like that start picking up on. It also goes into the cause. If we come back to the cause and I know that normally, like, especially say I got, you know, the rookie that we we've have right now, we've had him probably eight months. This dude is a, he was a D2 football, collegiate football player. You can't beat this guy down. He drives me insane because we'll make a fire and we're coming back, and us older guys are like, I need an ibuprofen, I need some electrolytes, and I need to go to bed.
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: And this dude's like, I'm ready for the next fire. We make a call and he doesn't come back with that same level of like enthusiasm. Okay, I'm starting to recognize some stuff. So that's where that, I guess, like the peer recognition or whatever, or you know,
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: having that strong crew, it all comes down to crew and tell you. Like when you're bouncing in, it's basically like, Hey, you're a certification and a number, and I'm putting you on this truck for the day, or I'm putting you on that truck. I can't recognize that stuff in a guy that I don't know. And
Angel Deaton: Right. Right.
heathmeredith: so I think the fire service does a terrible job at that. Leave guys with guys that know them. And there's always going to be people that move stations because they're promoting or things like that happen, but that's a choice. But if you'll put people where they know the person, that peer support group can be way stronger. It's just like at home. Right. If you don't have like I I'm very fortunate, my parents live a hundred yards that way, my brother lives a hundred yards that way. If I need somebody to watch my kids, that's my support group because I need to run to town to go do something. I holler at my sister-in-law or my brother, I'm like, hey, I I'm sending my kids up to your house. Right. That's your that's your support network at home. It's no different at the fire department. But if you don't have that, because you're from a broken home with a fire department where you got split parents and one lives in Alabama and one lives in Tennessee and you're just stuck here on your own or whatever. That's what we're doing to our guys, and we wonder why they have no peer support
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: network. Shit's not complicated. So
Angel Deaton: Yes, yes. Which leads me to think two things. When I left the fire department, I'm telling you it was six months. Somebody would be like, well, how's the new job? And I'd be like, I can't talk about it. The new job's great, but I miss my guys terribly. Like I was with them for eight years and I had the best lieutenant and the best captain that there was. And I just, I knew where the Lord was leading me. I knew where I needed to be. I knew what I was supposed to do best for my family, but losing that family atmosphere at the fire department, it wrecked me for a while. But that also leads me to think, what were you hearing from the guys that were reaching out that their spouses were seeing at home before they recognized, there's something wrong. I need to get some help.
heathmeredith: Ooh, probably the same thing my wife says, my wife can tell whenever I'm spun up pretty bad because I'm just like everybody else, you know, especially in our industry, like obviously your temper rise rises. Like that's gonna be one of the first
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: signs. Like if somebody starts getting short with you, something's on their mind. They may not even know it. And like a lot of times I won't even know it. My wife's like, Hey, you're being short. And I'm like, Am I? She's like, Yeah. Like you're you're being short with the kids, you're being short with me, you're being short with the dogs. Like You're being short. And so that's a big, like a big thing that people will recognize when somebody starts getting getting a little short. obviously there's like deeper stuff when guys aren't sleeping or they're having the bad nightmares. And all I'm I'm fortunate, I've never been that guy. I don't the only nightmares and like I I'm probably not the best on the mental health deal, but I have never had like the suicidal things. I have homicidal tendencies. So When I start getting mad and everything like that, like I'm not trying to hurt myself. I'm trying to hurt, you know, the lying ass fire chief or the the the crooked ass mayor or whatever that's hurting
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: me. I'm gonna hurt them. So I'm kind of that guy. I don't, I'm not the one that's ever gone to a dark place and want to hurt myself. I'm like, God gave me five daughters because if he didn't, there'd be some dead fire chiefs out there. So that's kind of where my head goes. And so my wife can understand that
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: when I start getting short. it it's it's due to something at at work and honestly most of the time it has nothing to do with the cause that we even are in most of the time it's a it's a toxic nature it's lying it's backstabbing that kind of stuff that's going on so for me that's probably the deal a lot of the spouses guys being disconnected i've gotten that message like they come home and they're disconnected they're not they're being very distant either from them or from the kids Or they're not going home. you know, they're they're pulling that card like what what we talked about earlier with my buddy, like they're pulling that card of like working all the OT that they possibly can. And the wife is like, I just want you to come home. Like at this point in time, we don't need the money. I'd rather you be here. And they're just like, No, I want a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. and honestly, I probably see that more than anything where guys are working a lot of overtime, they're working their part-time jobs, and they're not going home. And They're hiding from it. They don't understand that, like you, you kind of got to go home. and it's not
Angel Deaton: Yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: even lessarily a bad relationship at home. It's just they actually would have to turn it off if they went home. And and the wives, a lot of times, I think wives are better at recognizing it than husbands are.
Angel Deaton: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: husbands just get mad. A lot of the husbands I've met, they don't they don't even like their wife being in the fire department because she's up there, you know, around a bunch of dudes. So that's a whole other conversation. But I I think
Angel Deaton: Right.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: that's the biggest thing is is the wives recognize. a level of distance that's kicking in and then a a shorter temper.
Kevin Whitsell: So so there's a few things here that I want to pull out. And you you made a statement that really took me back some years ago and Angel knows this about me. Most of the listeners have heard me reference this before, but so I'm in my second and final marriage currently
Angel Deaton: Thank
heathmeredith: Same.
Kevin Whitsell: and yeah.
Angel Deaton: Same.
Kevin Whitsell: and very early on in our relationship I found myself in an affair. And because I was in this affair having to keep up with the lies, having to do all the things, I didn't want to go home either. And I think you make an interest that the way you put it was really ideal for for what's coming next is that if you go home, you have to turn it off. And we hate to turn it off.
heathmeredith: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Whitsell: and she looked at me that day and said, before she knew that there was an affair happening. She said, You love this ambulance more than you love me. And I remember being so hurt by that. because no, I don't. I was unhappy in other areas and and chose a path that did not align with what I believed, did not align with my core values as a Christian man. it didn't even go with the identity that I had put on myself as a man, period. it was just one of those things that started as a friendship and just slowly faded into something else. and and I think we get so enthralled in some of those things sometimes, whether it be a relationship like that or whether it be something else that you focus all your time into. But we tend to be almost like that little ADHD kid. And and this is coming from the large ADHD kid. but we get
Angel Deaton: You
Kevin Whitsell: so hyper focused on one thing, and and me and Daniel Sundial from Dance and Artwork talked extensively about this. we get so focused on this one thing that turning turning it off feels so scary to us. And talk about that a little bit. Have you ever had that moment or seen friends or seen colleagues to where The quiet is the most dangerous place. Where when it all stops, everything starts to fall in.
heathmeredith: 100%. I I mean, I'm that guy. So shit, so much so that I've even created my entire side business is still fire department, right? so I I'm a firm believer and people arguing me on this. I'm a firm believer that like basically every first responder is an addict. And it doesn't necessarily mean that it's drugs or alcohol, but we're we're an addict because You're not gonna do this type of job, whether it's on a box, whether it's on a fire truck, or whether it's being a cop. And that's not a form of addiction for you. that's the reason why you take a guy like me who likes to be at a hot house and you stick me over at the slow station and I'm going insane. that's I I am a firm believer in that. And so I think that it really kind of starts going like with what you're talking about. Guys start making those types of mistakes, because that's what they are, because it's chasing an an addiction. It's it's a you get into the science part, but it's a dopamine rush, right? Like having an affair is a dopamine
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: rush. that
Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. That's it.
heathmeredith: that 30 30 minutes of a good time is a dopamine rush. That's what it is for us. So
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: we get that same thing, whether it's fighting fire, whether it's, you know, you're going to a major entrapment on the ambulance where they're, you know, calling for this. Or whether you're you're running a CPR and you're trying to run all the stuff through your mind of what all that you gotta do on running that code, like that is all an adrenaline rush, some form or another. And so we're addicts. We're we are addicts. and it and me coming from a guy which I I still drink, but I don't drink like I did whenever I was younger, and I'm not doing the drugs that I was when I was younger.
Kevin Whitsell: Same, yeah. Yeah.
heathmeredith: So and like even now I don't I don't even take Tylenol now because I was pretty bad into the pill game whenever I was a younger guy. So even just that motion of taking pills opens up a door in my mind where I'm like, ooh, I kind of missed that. So I don't do that. And that's been 13 years ago. the thing when it comes to like the fire department and and chasing that, you gotta understand that and I I do talk about it at the end of my lecture, but you gotta understand eventually you're not gonna be able to do it. And I think that that's kind of where we are, and I don't have an answer for that yet. Like I'm obviously I I have like
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: 12 years left, but I am kind of planning my exit plan. from the fire service of running calls, but I'm doing it in a training route. But I don't think we as an industry completely, I don't think we have an off-ramp on this. Just like the military, you hear like every SEAL in the world talks about it. When they get out of the SEAL teams, they're they're used to running on a on a train that's doing a thousand miles an hour and and it's basically a one-dimensional job, right? Because there's nothing outside of of the SEAL teams that you skydive and you And you dive in the water and you kick doors down and you blow shit up and you do. There's no job that I can go sign up to do that. There's no job that I can go sign up to be a firefighter except for being a firefighter. So we're kind of like
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, yeah.
heathmeredith: a very one-dimensional thing that we do for 20 to 30 years of our life with no off-ramp. And so I don't, I don't necessarily have an answer, but I can say that like I know exactly what you're talking about because. I've seen it with multiple people, man. Like Houston Fire Department. So Houston Fire Department is one of the most well-funded pension systems in the entire world. And what, which I don't work for them, I work for a county department that's inside the city limits of Houston. But because I've spent my whole career with Houston guys working with us part-time, I know
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: a lot of their stuff. and most of our chiefs are Houston guys. But basically, people don't know the reason that their pension is one of the most well-funded is because. Guys stayed on the job so long that all the money that they paid in, they died and they didn't get to keep their pension, and it's in their clause of the pension.
Angel Deaton: No.
heathmeredith: The money rolls back into the general fund. So their entire pension is literally like, it's like high 90 percentile self-funded. And it's because of that, because guys don't know how to get on that off ramp. And then when they do, there's a bunch of guys that I know that literally spent 40, 45, 50 years on the job. They retired, and within one year of retiring, they died. And so their money rolled back in because they outlived their spouse. They out, I mean, just all the horror stories that go along with that. But like they worked their whole life to get this pension and it goes back to the damn city. And so
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: I don't have an answer per se for that, but I do have a diagnosis
Angel Deaton: Thank you.
heathmeredith: of what it is. I just don't know
Angel Deaton: Well.
heathmeredith: exactly how we tell firefighters, like, outside of this, you need to build something else. Outside of
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
Angel Deaton: Okay.
heathmeredith: this, you need to have an identity in something else. For me, it's this ranch. For me, it's my kids. I know a lot of guys don't have that. They're living in an apartment complex somewhere, you know, and they're not married or whatever. So like their outside life is is chasing girls at the bar and and being a single fireman, which I did all that. I have nothing, no problem with that. But there's no
Angel Deaton: Okay.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: off rent for a lot of people. So I I get what you're saying. I just I don't have an answer.
Kevin Whitsell: It's it's so funny the way that these stories and kind of what we do here at A Silent War Within gets kind of woven into my personal life
Angel Deaton: Thanks
Kevin Whitsell: somehow. I was just having a conversation not an hour before I was finally able to get on. I was late, but which I hate. That's one of my pet peeves. But I was having a conversation about an hour previously with Jason, who is the other host for a silent war within. Jason and I were talking just earlier about this retirement thing and Five Arrows Forge, which is his coaching company, is our first official founding sponsor for the podcast. So we're actually getting sponsored by his company. And of course, it's so that we both can gain a business reputation from it and grow ourselves and and and be better. in reality, Angel will probably get the majority of the investment because she does much of the work. but I It's it's funny that that retirement thing comes up when you talk about the quiet of the room and that's really the most quiet that firefighters, EMS, whoever will have at the end of their career when it's all over with. What are you
heathmeredith: Yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: after this? and I think that it's so important that even if you are that single fireman that's out for lack of better terminology, chasing tail and and living the single life and doing what single guys do. it's still important to build something that you can have that, whether it's like you're doing in in education and podcasting and like we're doing and podcasting and a nonprofit that will allow us to to to train other first responders. And I'm going back to get my counseling degree and all this stuff. Whatever it is, you have to find something that when
heathmeredith: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Whitsell: that quiet room finally hits, when you're forty five, fifty-five, whenever you walk away from it. You have to have something that's gonna dull that quiet a little bit. And I I think that that's important. So what what do you say? And and you mentioned it in some of your stories, but like the pills, the alcohol, and I've had experience with both of those myself. like the pills and alcohol, you're sitting across from a firefighter who's struggling with this. How do you force him to look himself in the mirror and see what he's become?
heathmeredith: man, I actually had that story. So, I mean, we all know the fire service is very, very, very small. So, one of my original episodes that I actually talked about and and put all my business out there, I ended up having a guy reach out to me. And this has been a couple years ago now, because I guess I've been doing my show for like almost four years. That was one of the original ones. So it's probably been two years ago the guy reached out to me, and I just told my stuff. Like totally told my story, everything I did.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: The the basically it was my come clean on myself episode. And it and it was honestly,
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: I put all my business out there. So I don't have any skeletons in the closet. I don't want to be one of these dudes that's like, you know, I I do something and then you know, I have somebody try to come after me and say, well, he did this 20 years ago, whatever. I'm like, nah, it was already public, so you can go on with that. I, you know, I'm that guy. So I put all my business out. And this dude comes to me, calls me, actually knew a guy that I used to work with 10 plus years ago, got my number through him, calls me, and he's like, Hey man, you telling all the stuff you did about how you took your pills, about when you took your pills, just I mean, literally laying out the itinerary,
Angel Deaton: Thank you.
heathmeredith: if you will.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: He's like, dude, you were literally talking about me. And I'm like, No, I wasn't, I don't even know you. And he's like, No, I'm telling you, I was so mad at you because.
Angel Deaton: Okay. Okay.
heathmeredith: I literally had no choice but to look in the mirror because I was doing the exact same stuff, doing it the exact same way. And so he ended up, whatever struck a nerve with him, he went and looked himself in the mirror and he ended up going to the center of excellence up there, the IFF one. And
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: and anyways, now he's been sober for I guess two years now. But it was literally like that. Like it was just me being so brutally honest about the stuff I did that guys had no choice but to be like, Yeah, he's talking about how he used to take two narcos before he'd go to the bar. Then at midnight he took two more two more narcos so he could take a chick home. And then, I mean, anybody that knows anything about taking pain pills and doing extracurricular activities, you're kind of like
Angel Deaton: Thank you.
heathmeredith: a superman. So there's no denying that. And I would say that stuff, and he's like, I'm doing the exact same thing for the same reason. And so anyway, it just is funny. And then now, you know, small world, but now that guy's ended up, he's actually come to work at my department. and he's on my on my shift. So I get to see him all the time. He's like, who would have ever thought something that you said four years ago would end up creating that? But I guess for me, it's just really just being the brutally honest person that tells my stuff. And so it would strike a nerve with somebody and it and it's probably gonna piss them off. You know, whether, especially you start
Angel Deaton: .
Kevin Whitsell: Sure.
heathmeredith: talking about cheating on your wife and things like that, they're gonna be mad at you at the time. But then they're gonna look at themselves in the mirror and then your words are gonna be ringing in the back of their mind. Cause like there's not a game out there that I haven't pulled. And so when I put all that out there, some guys get mad because I'm giving up the secrets. And so, you know, they might feel like they can get caught. But then at the same time in giving up the secrets, they're like, I'm doing the same thing. And so they may have the maturity at that point in time to change their ways, or they may hide behind it for another three or four or five years, but eventually they're gonna be like, okay, I pulled the same game as this guy. doing the same crap, I can I can get better or whatever, I can fix my life and eventually be in the same place as him, like healthy or whatever, good relationship at this point, whatever. They can see a light at the end of the tunnel if they kind of more more or less fix their ways. And it's just from coming clean. That that's the only way I feel about
Angel Deaton: Right. So a massive piece of your mission at the Third Alarm Cowboys is to rebuilding true authentic brotherhood in an industry plagued by industrial friction, toxic leadership, administration, moral injury. How do we protect the crew? at the floor level in the field when leadership is actively breaking their spirits.
heathmeredith: yeah, I mean that's pretty much what my entire platform has kind of become into. you know, and a lot of guys have heard
Kevin Whitsell: Yep, I'm interested for this.
heathmeredith: of the firehouse fist fights and and
Angel Deaton: I love it.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: all that kind of stuff. So I mean, honestly, like, you know, for me it's not all talk. For me, it's not, I'm not just trying to sell a shirt. Obviously, it's part of my lecture. Obviously, I do have the shirt and stuff, but like I literally I was telling y'all before we got on, we taught the new higher academy at my fire department. And at my department. And and I encourage this everywhere. I know it doesn't necessarily work for EMS, but at a fire department, we have silver badges and we have gold badges, right? Captains and up or lieutenants and up have a gold badge. Silver badges is EOs and down. We have silver badge meetings, and then there's gold badge meetings. And it's very, very, very understood in my department. Like I can literally look at my captain and say, hey, Cap, silver badge meeting, get out. And he respects that and he walks away. And he knows because we have the understanding. If it goes to a gold badge, that means it's got to have paperwork put on it. So we
Angel Deaton: Mmm.
heathmeredith: had that very, very established line. Now, because they get to have their officer meetings and they get to go plan the department and do all their stuff and plan policies and all that kind of mess. So if they can have gold badge meetings, by God, we can have silver badge meetings. And it all starts off like literally these guys, when they came in the other day, and this was their new hire orientation. They did their week-long, you they had their few days in admin where they're doing their paperwork crap.
Angel Deaton: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: with admin and then I get them for three days on a fire field. And there was a couple several silver badge meetings that go on during that where I'm like, hey,
Angel Deaton: All right.
heathmeredith: you know, it's performance-based conversations or it's cultural based, whatever. And I tell these guys, I'm like, you're coming in the fire service. A lot of you never worked in this before. Like you're gonna see A, B, and C. You're gonna have these things go on. I don't care what department it is, all departments are the same. The patch is just different. But one thing you must do starting day one is understand that communication at that kitchen table is where it's all gonna start. Guys are gonna talk strategies and tactics
Kevin Whitsell: Mm.
heathmeredith: with you there. They're gonna talk about, you know, we're gonna talk about our wives, we're gonna talk about our kids, we're gonna talk about everything under the sun happens at that
Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely.
heathmeredith: table. And another part of that is gonna be that brotherhood talk. When you're, you know, if you didn't pull a line, you screwed a lineup on that call, I'm gonna ask you why you, why'd you mess that up? You didn't catch the hydrant. I'm going ask you that. And it goes on
Kevin Whitsell: Uh-huh.
heathmeredith: so on and so forth in having that truthful conversation, not just about operations, but it may go into other things like, hey, man, why didn't you take the trash out? Why didn't you put the dishes up? You're making us look bad as a crew. You need to step your game up. Whatever that looks like, we have to have those conversations. And I literally start that from day one. I've done that my entire career. When I was an officer, and this is how brutal I get. But it goes back to that. You want brotherhood and you want to be truly making a difference. It's a brutal ass conversation. Females,
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: you're a female, okay? You may not like this, but this is literally what I would do as an officer. I don't necessarily do it now because I don't have that position in power. But I will literally look at a female, and this is actually the first time in my entire career I haven't had a female on my crew. chiefs would actually put the females with me because I would do this. They couldn't say it, but I knew it was a deal. Female on my crew. Come in here like, look, I love you. This is my expectations of you. You're a female in the fire service. It's gonna be brutal. You are gonna have to step your game up and you're gonna have to prove the guys wrong. Like it, don't
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: like it, whatever. But that's the truth of it.
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: The other truth of it is this: you're a female. I got five daughters, and I'm married. Females got problems. I don't have that problem, but females got monthly problems that y'all have to deal with. Okay.
Angel Deaton: Right?
heathmeredith: I'm sorry. You were born that
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: way. There's nothing I can do about it. But this is the deal. I'm married to my wife, and excuse the language on this, but this is literally how I would say it. I'm married
Kevin Whitsell: You're good.
heathmeredith: to my wife who I sleep with, and I don't tolerate her being a bitch. I understand
Angel Deaton: Yes
heathmeredith: you have bad hormone issues, but that's basically, I'm sorry, but that's a you problem, and it doesn't excuse you getting to be a bitch to the guys at this station. If you come to me
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: and you're like, Cap, I'm struggling. I'm hurting. Whatever. I need some space. I will let you have that all day long. You go handle yourself just like I tell my daughters. Like if you're in a bind and you're hurting, because I don't know what that's like, but I understand it's a real thing. I've been sent to the store
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: to buy plenty of pads and stuff in my life. Go in there and
Kevin Whitsell: Me too.
heathmeredith: if you need your quiet time, go have your quiet time. I'm not going to take that away from you, but understand that you don't get
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: to come in here and be rude to people just because of that issue. And I have yet. To have a female on my crew that actually had a problem with that. They're Cap, we actually really appreciate that. Because most people are scared to death of having that talk, right? Most dudes are like, I'm
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: not going and buying 10 packs. It's some cotton. Get over it. Like it's cotton in a sticky pad. But like people are scared of
Angel Deaton: Right, right, right.
Kevin Whitsell: The matter, yeah.
heathmeredith: it. And so, like, even when it came to that, I was always just brutally honest with that. And I, every female that ever worked for me truly respected that. And it would even go, I
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: mean, that level of just Conversation, regardless of topic, but I like to use that one because people will that blows people away the most. Like you said that to
Kevin Whitsell: yeah.
heathmeredith: girls? Yeah. I mean, why not? Right? and so for me, it was a lot of
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: a lot of just being brutally honest, even in those really awkward ass conversations. But when you say that to somebody and you tell them, like, hey man, I understand if you need some quiet time. I understand if your emotions are all over the place. I get it. I don't know what it feels like, but I get it. Just tell me,
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: and then you can go go to your room. And if the chief comes down,
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: it's got some smart shit to say, I'm the station captain. Yeah. So that's just kind of how I
Angel Deaton: handle it. Right. That's awesome.
heathmeredith: feel about it. And I and I think a lot of guys in our industry are so scared to death. And I don't know if it's because I blame it on HR a lot, like on my platform. I blame it on the lawyers. I blame it on HR. I blame it on the corporate America, what I call corporate rot. That has come into the fire service. I
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: blame it on all that because that is ultimately what it is. But the guys can fix
Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely.
heathmeredith: it. The guys can start having
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: those type of conversations at the kitchen tables and amongst each other and everything. And there's nothing HR can do about it. Cause I have yet
Kevin Whitsell: You're exactly right. Mm-hmm.
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: to have an HR director that was at my station at two o'clock in the morning. Never had it. So we
Angel Deaton: Right. Right.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm mm.
heathmeredith: can fix that internally and they don't even have to know. But it takes the guys being able to be like, hey, silver badge meeting, gold badge meeting. Hard conversation, and I don't even necessarily like calling
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: them hard conversations because to me it's not hard.
Angel Deaton: Right?
heathmeredith: Like if you another caveat to it, excuse the the lewdness, but it's just kind of what it is. I'm like, man, you I'm married, right? I married a Cajun woman who's five
Kevin Whitsell: Lord.
heathmeredith: five and a hundred and ten pounds. This woman is amazing and we have a great relationship. But if you listen to us, sometimes we literally sound like a Jerry Springer episode. And I live
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: with her. If you think ever in your career that you're gonna live with people just like you live with your spouse, just like you live with your mom and dad, just like you live with your kids, and at some point or another, they're not gonna piss
Kevin Whitsell: Not the same.
heathmeredith: you off, you're absolutely delusional. Look,
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
Angel Deaton: That's right.
heathmeredith: just like with my wife, we'll fight, I'll hang up on her, she'll hang up on me. There'll be some four letter words that get dropped and all this. I may not talk to her for four days when I'm away at work. Come back home, we sit down, and it's like, hey. I was mad. I was annoyed. I was on my 20th call. We hadn't ate. We hadn't slept.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: I'm I'm sorry. I don't even remember what all I said to you. If I said some hateful shit, I'm sorry. can, you know, let's
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: let's figure out whatever we need a solution to the problem, whatever that looks like. and so in the fire station, it's no different. It's literally no different.
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: You gotta, you gotta smell these people, you gotta hear the snoring. I mean, every everything like.
Angel Deaton: Okay.
heathmeredith: My my EO, I love him to death. The dude is literally a brother to me. Literally. I could call him right now and say, I need you to drive. And he lives on the other side of Houston, which is about four hours from me. I could call him right now. It's 620 here. That dude would be here by 1020 if I called him right now. Does he drive me insane at the fire station? Yeah, because I am tired
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: of watching and waking up and hearing mash on the thousandth time. I can literally when I wake up or go in there and I can hear the mash intro
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: song, it drives me insane. Or emergency. That's the only two things that the guy listens to. And he's the oldest dude in the station. Well, he gets he the remote. so you know, just in saying all that, like people are gonna piss you off in the station, no matter how much you love them. They're gonna piss you off just like your mom and dad piss you off, just like your spouse pisses you
Kevin Whitsell: Mm.
heathmeredith: off, just like your kids piss you off. So understand that and don't hide from it. Just Hit it head on and be able to talk about it. And you may not be able to talk about the issue right then. If they piss you off right then, walk off and cool off. Maybe it's the next
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: tour. You got to come back and be like, hey man,
Kevin Whitsell: Yep. Yep.
heathmeredith: last shift, you pissed me off. But that's just
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: what it takes.
Angel Deaton: Yeah, yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely.
Angel Deaton: So what would you say to a young firefighter that if you recognize that they were already feeling burned out, maybe not even from the calls, but just dealing with the leadership, what advice would you have for them?
heathmeredith: I actually get that a lot. I get that a whole lot. So kind of giving a little a little background of like where I work. We have the city of Houston, which is, you know, HFD. They got over a hundred stations, four different shifts. So you basically, you know, you have 400 homes that you can choose from throughout your career. but they also have, you know, tons of extra things. So like they have their own arson division, they have A massive rescue, you know, multiple rescue companies, but they're they're a massive rescue department. They have hazmat, they have down the at the academy, they have their own in-house academy and regional academy where they literally train people as far as from like Japan, sends firefighters to come train there. So basically there's lots of specialty auxiliary places that you can go. Where I've worked, the sad truth about where I worked is most of the county departments are roughly two to four to five station departments, and they don't have all those specialty stuff. So that conversation happens a lot because basically what we do is we fight a lot of fire, but we fight a lot of fire and we run a lot of med calls. And in working at places where you know, guys come and they want to do like me, I'm my dad was one of the founding members of our hometown regional deep east Texas, but it's actually Nakadochas Fire Department. My dad was one of the founding dive team members. So they do they have a full regional response
Angel Deaton: wow.
heathmeredith: for swift water and dive. My dad was one of their original divers. So I grew up in the water. I got my first grab, was in the water in a swift water incident. Like I like that water stuff. Where I've worked, the departments I've worked at, the Chiefs, even though we're in the Bayou City, right? Houston floods. If a squirrel peas, it floods. And I mean, you I don't know who planned it, but if
Angel Deaton: Yes. Yes.
heathmeredith: you if you build cities at sea level or below sea level, they're gonna flood like that. Hello. But you can't tell
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: these fire chiefs that stuff. So a lot of guys will come in, they get burned out because they're tired of just running fire alarms, med calls, and and
Angel Deaton: No, I'm good.
heathmeredith: regular fires. And over a 20-year career, that gets old. And then, you know, they get screwed over by promotions. Cause also every department I've worked at, completely different promotional processes. Everyone I've ever been at. Totally different game that you're playing by, totally different
Angel Deaton: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: command structure that you're playing by. And that stuff 100% takes a toll on you. And I've had those conversations where these guys come and basically what I redirect them into is it's like, for one, I'm gonna tell you the grass is never greener. From a guy that I did a I jumped a lot of fences getting sold a dream. I people beat me up on my platform. Well, how many departments have you worked for? Well, I've worked for about seven departments, part-time and full time. Because I was that guy. Like, you come and sell me a dream, the first 10 years of my career, I bit off into it. but then I get over there and I realize grass was not greener. It's the same toxic crap over here. And so I explain that
Kevin Whitsell: Exactly right.
heathmeredith: first and foremost. I I tell the young guys, like, hey man, yeah, that department may have shinier trucks, but that's because they're there there's that much more bullshit over there where it looks like it's shinier.
Angel Deaton: That's right.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: And so for one, being honest with them about it. For two really try to get to the bottom and the root of like what they want out of their career. Because if a guy like like take that for instance, if they're like me and they want to do swift water, but they're stuck in a department that's gonna always refuse to do swift water, they're always gonna be unhappy because they're gonna have that piece missing. Now I'm old enough in my career, I'm kind of swallowing my pride on that and just realizing like it ain't worth me going and starting over again when I'm over
Angel Deaton: Mm-mm.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm.
heathmeredith: halfway through my career. So you gotta kind of be honest and and truthful in that that perspective. But if it's a super young guy that's getting burnt out because of administrative stuff and all that, being honest and explaining what they're gonna look at no matter where they go. and then really find out what they want out of their career. Because if if they're wanting to if they wanna do a 20 year career, they wanna do a 30 year career, you're gonna have to tell them, like, hey man, it's gonna be like this. no matter where you go, you're gonna have these these pain in the butt administrations. There's always gonna be the new policy that comes out every other day, no matter where you go. That's that is the reality of of what you're looking at. The other thing is is finding out tactically what they want. If they want to ride an engine forever, or they wanna go to a ladder truck, or they wanna become a paramedic, you gotta find out what they kind of want out of their career, or they're always gonna be unhappy. and then the other thing is Really, really, really explaining to these guys that chiefs are at the end of their career. Regardless of how long and how greedy they want to be, they're at the end of their career in comparison to the young guy. So say you take that one-year guy, whatever, and they're starting to get tired of the old crappy chief. If this guy plans on staying in 30 years, regardless that chief will will retire or not, they're gonna be dead by the time this dude gets their 30 years.
Angel Deaton: Right, right.
Kevin Whitsell: You're exactly right, yeah.
heathmeredith: It explaining that basically, and I actually took I guess it was Rich Gassaway's class years and years ago, the the I forget what it was called, but it was the leadership class. And literally that was a portion there, that's probably one of the main things I took away from that class was it's like, hey, you will outlive the chief. If if you
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: stay here long enough, you will out no matter how many contract extensions they get and and how many more objectives that they have on their whiteboard for their contract. You can outlive them just simply because they're older than you. So I kind of try to tell people that too. and just understanding that, you know, whether that chief's got three years left or or or 30 years left, if you've got 40 years left, then you can have 10 years without this sucker. So just that's that's kind of what I do. And The brutal honest part, the brutal, brutal honest part is some guys, this job is not 30, that it's not for them for 30 years. if they're a couple years in and they're already experiencing that many issues and they're having that much burnout, that's kind of where it goes into that whole like having an off-ramp, understanding like, hey, there is more to this. If you're already feeling
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm. Yep.
heathmeredith: that way and you've only been in five, 10 years or less, this job may not be for you. Just because it's a lot. Of crap that you have to eat. And so another 20 years of this, what's that gonna do to your head? It's obviously not gonna be good. So enjoy this job. I mean, and I'll use him as an example. I love him, but he's on my my crew that I'm at now because I'm I'm having to ride up as a driver. This guy's been in 10 years, he's realizing that he's always had the dream of wanting to be a commercial pilot. So, you know, I'm putting his business out, but it's all good. He's actually in school right now. He went and got the loan and he's in full-fledged Absolute shoulder over his head deep in in pilot school. And so he's using the fire department as a sustained income, but now he's chasing
Kevin Whitsell: Sure.
heathmeredith: his dreams of getting to go be a commercial pilot, which is something he's want do since he was a little kid. And so he has an off-ramp going into something
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: that is gonna be a whole other avenue. So having that conversation, like, hey man, this maybe not be for you. Is there something else that you love that you've always wanted to do? Maybe it's
Angel Deaton: Yeah.
heathmeredith: time. Maybe it's time and use the fire department. Some people will hate me for that, but we have a really good schedule at the fire
Kevin Whitsell: Mm mm.
heathmeredith: department. And if you can use this good schedule to your advantage to build something else, do it.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Heath, I you know, we kind of reached the end and I I really hate this part because it's always kind of the end of a good conversation. and I and but if anybody has listened to the last 50 plus episodes, almost 60 now, you guys know how much I love a guest like you've been. honest, no BS, come at you straight, like not not gonna sugarcoat it. For anybody, and I love that about you. Thank you for coming on and just sharing a piece of yourself and talking about some things that may not have been comfortable to talk about. but I really do appreciate the open honesty and the fact that you're out there kind of doing very similar work that we are, and that you're out there saying that, hey, this is not something that should be looked down upon. And a lot of this is administrative moral injury and that. You know, hey, you get mad about that. And I love that you're so just in the episodes that I've been researching and and really falling in love with what you're doing, like you'll say some stuff that nobody else is gonna be willing to say. And I
heathmeredith: Yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: love that. I really do love that. Angel turned me on to you because she you know, she was so excited to get you to answer her correspondence and she's like, Guess who I got? And I'm like, she's like, He's Meredith, and I'm like, Who
Angel Deaton: Who was that?
Kevin Whitsell: who's that? And she's like, go look him up, go look him up. And I so I went and looked you up, and man, you you really are, you're doing some good stuff, so I really like it. so I always give everybody a chance to kind of give the shameless plug, give your podcast, give where you're streaming at, all those things and any projects you may have going on that you want to tell us about.
heathmeredith: Yeah, for sure, man. And and in all fairness, like I I'm no profit by any means, but I think that the platforms out there that are moving away from the cookie cutter, you know, prem and proper way of doing things, those are the platforms that are growing. and so I think
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, absolutely.
heathmeredith: that that us collectively, you know, y'all, me, I can name, you know, a handful of other guys that that are have become my close friends at this point of guys that are just doing that real. Hardcore, like, hey, this is what we're going through. This is that's the ones that are growing. And it's because it resonates with real people. I think as a society, we're kind of done with the PC, cookie cutter, everything is just peaches and cream like way of life. I think collectively
Kevin Whitsell: a hundred percent. Yeah, that's not truth, yeah.
heathmeredith: everybody's done with that. So you know, and and my whole deal like from the very beginning is in doing the podcast and all that, like I I have I know who I am, right? As a person. I know who I am. I have nothing, nothing to hide. Like the only person I gotta impress on this planet, and the only person I'm actually accountable to is that Cajun wife of mine. things come and go.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: Life comes and goes. but I've always had the attitude of like when I sit at my kitchen table, which is this same table I'm sitting at, when I sit at this table, the same guy that I'm on that podcast is the same guy that sits here with my five daughters and my wife. And I have stuck by that. And that's what
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: I believe in. I think that's how you actually make a difference. And and obviously people are resonating with that because that's why our platform is growing so crazy. But you know, really when it comes to what we, you know, what we have going on, I I'm just gonna keep building what I'm building. I joked in the beginning, like I've pissed off some of the biggest names from the very beginning, man.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
heathmeredith: Like I've I've lost friends behind what I've done, I've lost jobs behind what I've done. And so people, that's that's the thing people gotta understand too. Like, I've literally had jobs where I I was a shoe-in for it for chief jobs, everything like that. And literally
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: the podcast cost me a job. They told me that in the interview. So understand that when you stand up for real stuff or you're doing real things in life, there's gonna be consequences, you know. And I love everybody makes the comments about, yeah, you got freedom of speech, but you don't have freedom of consequences. Yeah, like I understand that. And I think everybody understands that. But collectively, as a world. If we all got to a mindset of like telling our real stories, telling what we actually believed in, they can't
Kevin Whitsell: yeah.
heathmeredith: there's 350 million Americans, right? They can't put us all in jail. They can't take all of our jobs because who the hell is going to be the fireman then? So
Kevin Whitsell: That's right.
Angel Deaton: All right.
heathmeredith: that's firefighters as a whole, I believe this, and really truly first responders, because I I kind of group us all together personally. That's just in my head how it works. Like I call everybody guys, that includes the chicks too. We're just all guys.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, same. Yeah.
Angel Deaton: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: We really can run the world because the society, the our communities trust us with everything. They're the we're the only people in the world that I steal this from Mo Davis, which is the chief at Houston, but we're the only people in the world that a mother with a dying baby will hand their kid over without knowing you from Adam. We have that level of power. So why the hell do we not act like that the rest of the week? Like understand that when we there's a reason why when fire a firefighter union puts a stamp on a politician, that politician gets elected. It's because of the power that we
Kevin Whitsell: You're right.
heathmeredith: have, because we're supposed to be this level of of
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: service, if you will, whatever word you want to put on it. So if we'll act like that all the time and stop stop hiding behind it, stop being scared of it. And that's kind of the way the direction I took with the platform with the Third Alarm Cowboys and everything. So Understand, like I I under I know that there's consequences, but I also feel that collectively, if we all just told truthfully who we are and the things we believe in, then it would fix a a lot of the issues society looks at.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: and man, I I'm just gonna keep building on on that notion and and talking about the things that come to my mind. And really and truly, my podcast is just it's it's a wild shit show because I I talk about
Angel Deaton: you
heathmeredith: what's on my mind. I don't have a script. I don't, you know, I don't read from a teleport. prompter. I don't, I had I don't even have notes. I go into a show and I'm like, what I want to talk about today. Well I'm gonna talk about what pissed me off yesterday. So that's kind of the
Angel Deaton: That's great. Yes.
heathmeredith: the entire the and
Kevin Whitsell: man.
heathmeredith: it's not formal or anything, but it's just literally me being me and and it's either you guys gotta listen to it or my my poor wife has to listen to it. And sometimes it's both.
Kevin Whitsell: It's usually both in my case.
heathmeredith: yeah, same here. You know, and so that's what we've done, man. And and really what's happened with that is people have latched on. People have latched on, and it's opened us up into this whole other deal where I'm traveling and doing my lecture. We went from I think we did seven, seven trainings last year. That's lecture and hands-on combined, but seven trainings last year. We're doing 18 this year. I just booked another three-day training conference today, this morning for in December. So I guess that'll put us at 19. So the message is resonating. So you know, anybody that thinks that like, you know, hey, I I don't want to be that guy, I don't have that voice, I don't know, like if you're being open and honest, people will latch on. And then in turn, it will turn into something like I had no you could have never convinced me two years ago that we'd be traveling all across the country and I got chiefs from California booking me to come teach an engine ops class. I would have told you you were a liar. But that's what's happened. And so we're just gonna keep building on that. And you know, guys out there. If you're interested in either our lecture, which is a very hit you in the mouth, like you want us to come out and fix your guys because your guys are down the dumps, they're not doing training, they're not taking care of business, things like that. Or the big portion of my job in my lecture is bridging generational gaps. That's one of the biggest sections. I probably spend an hour on working on that. And it's because I have the perspective of being more or less, I don't want to say a middle-aged guy, but a middle generation firefighter. I and I have kids that are 18, or I have a daughter that's 18, another one that's 16. So I literally, my daughter could go to Fire Academy right now. And so I can relate to that group because I live with that group. And then I know the old heads because I've worked with them and they're all my dad's generation. So I'm kind of in a very special spot where I can truly bridge the gap, and I'm not like some of these other people out here that are hypothetically talking about it. I can talk about real stuff. and
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: so You know, if that's something the guys are interested in us coming out, whatever, and then we have our hands-on class, which we're probably one of the only engine ops hands-on classes across the country that literally teach from we call it from the pump to the nozzle, but we literally teach everything. And it's
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: we are the only cadre that's out there of instructors that is is breaking down doing the pump mechanics and doing it in a realistic, real-life pump ops. I'm not teaching you coefficients and and all the textbook stuff. I we teach guys. How you really pump on a fire ground, and then everything else included,
Kevin Whitsell: Nice.
heathmeredith: which is you know, forced entry, throwing ladders, doing search and rescue off the line when it's just two people on a line. Like
Kevin Whitsell: What's the five?
heathmeredith: all the stuff that we get to do, and I'm very, very blessed of everywhere I've worked. It's I have a you call it a blessing or a curse, depends on who you are, but I've had a very special career in the sense that I worked in areas that burned the world down and we did it with like no help. And so. Like my the guys that I'm with now, last year we made 63 working structure fires as a crew. But then the other dynamic is we're in the city limits of Houston, but we're an incorporated county department. So basically what that means in turn is we don't have infrastructure. So we do all those fires with no hydrants. we do them all with with tanker tenders. So I'm in a in a tanker
Angel Deaton: Wow.
heathmeredith: house and so we do all the rural water supply. Like what all you know, your your very rural volunteer departments do. We do all that mess, but we're doing it with mid rises it in inside the city limits of Houston. So we're very special in what we do, but it makes us
Kevin Whitsell: Mm.
heathmeredith: good at our job. so that's my little
Angel Deaton: That's right.
heathmeredith: shameless plug on the training. And you know, the guys I bring with me are guys that I actually fight fire with. I'm very, very, very picky, as people know from the podcast, I'm picky. I don't put my name on people. I don't fight fire with you, I ain't bringing you in. And so that's kind of limited me at times, but at other times, like I know my guys are not full of crap. We do this crap. Literally
Kevin Whitsell: Yep. Yep.
heathmeredith: funny story, but everybody loves a story. We taught a regional training in Southeast Texas two weeks ago. It was our our Friday, Saturday, Sunday class. We got off work, work, we work 4896. So get off work, go home, come in, teach for three days. The very next day we had to be back at work. In our 48, that one, we made five working structure fires on that 48. And we were doing the exact stuff that we taught with doing drafting and all that kind of stuff, having to set up dump tanks, all that. The only thing we did cheat, we didn't have to set up dump tank. my EO actually set up a hard suction drafting off of a off of a pond, a retention pond, which people don't know. But basically, when you build a city at sea level, you gotta have somewhere for the water to go. So they put retention
Kevin Whitsell: Mm.
heathmeredith: ponds all over the place. So the guys are literally drafting not even 24 hours on a on a working structure fire right after we get done teaching. So We're very special and very blessed in the sense that we get to do that kind of stuff, but that's what's made our platform take off is it's no nonsense. We actually do this. The stuff I tell people in the lecture, the conversation like what I'm telling you guys, like how I talk to people
Kevin Whitsell: Mm.
heathmeredith: in the station, it's what we do. And and so it's been very, very special then and you know, I I love being able to come on platforms like this. Y'all are actually only my fourth interview to ever actually do. So,
Angel Deaton: wow!
heathmeredith: Yeah. So I haven't done a whole lot of
Kevin Whitsell: Wow. You couldn't
heathmeredith: of other deals. And y'all's has actually been different than any other one I've ever done. Most of them have all been like, tell us about the fist fight
Kevin Whitsell: Daddy.
heathmeredith: shirt. But yeah, I've only I've only done four interviews now. And so it's very, very special to me to get to be a guest on other people's platforms and that people even give a damn what I've got to say. So
Angel Deaton: You
heathmeredith: I really do appreciate y'all. And yeah, anybody wants to get us third alarm cowboys on on everything and And go to thirdalarmcowboys.com. I'll leave y'all with this. The the a lot of the people have really, really liked the articles that I've been dropping on social media, the long
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: format articles. Those have gotten very popular because that's just me pouring my heart out on whatever subject it is that I'm doing. and I actually you can find all the full articles in the in the like the the real articles themselves on thirdalarmcowboys.com. I've started a whole page on there called the Tac Journal. And it's basically just me journaling my thoughts in an article format of like what's going through my mind on whatever subject at the time. and I'm dropping one of those a week on my website. So, you know, the last one was the what is actual crew integrity? I did
Angel Deaton: in.
heathmeredith: one before that was it's not my job. I mean, things that are hitting every single person that you're dealing with, it's your department, whatever your patch looks like, it's things that I'm gonna talk about. And so That's just kind of my shameless plug for guys that wanna go and go and follow us. Go to the website, follow us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, all that good stuff, man. and I'm just gonna keep being me.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, we love that. And guys, you know, just like Heath, we like to deliver episodes that do punch in the mouth. And I do think that this is one of those that Heath brought the thunder, if you will. He he punched us in the mouth. He told us what it was about. and Heath, I'm really appreciative that you came on and you said yes to a mental health podcast that many people shy away from. so I am very appreciative for you. guys, you know where you can find us, but really I could go through and tell you all those things. But really, the hub of all our information is a silentwarwithin.com. That's where you can find everything. I write on there as well. started writing for Dark Horse Press. Make sure you check them out. Jason is is our co-host Jason is now our founding sponsor with with five arrows forged. he is a registered coach and If you want somebody who's really been through the job and really walked through the literal fire, he's the guy. So reach out to him. also PTSD strong dot org is gonna be one of our partners very soon. Go check them out as well. so we are super excited that we are gaining more traction. We are growing just like you, Heath. again, thank you. and now, now, There is merch out there for us as well. You can go find t shirts, hats, all these things. and you may say, Okay, Kev, where does that actually go? Well, that goes to get us out into the community and to do training and to go to conferences and to really be side by side with you guys and really talk to you one on one. And give you the opportunity to get peer support or to get counseling or to get coaching or whatever that is. It gets us out there so that you guys can meet and greet us and that we can give you goodies and that we can be there at all those conferences, giving the little bags out that everybody loves. Everybody loves a goodie
Angel Deaton: Thank
Kevin Whitsell: bag at conference. but really it's to grow this platform even more because we want to reach as many people as possible with this message. You don't have to fight alone, you don't have to struggle in silence. There are people, even though times like that feel very isolating, there are people who have been through very similar things and have felt very similar ways. You don't have to feel like you are by yourself because you are not. so as we grow, keep up with us. Make sure that you're reading all the things and seeing all the things. And the biggest part of what we do is obviously the podcast itself. Make sure you like, leave a review, all those good things that all the streaming platforms want you to do to tell them that we're good content. so Heath, again, thank you so much. And as we always close our show and Angels premiere episode, you did a great job.
Angel Deaton: Thanks.
Kevin Whitsell: as we close every show, be safe, take care of your mind, and we will talk soon. Bye, everybody.
Angel Deaton: Thanks.
Kevin Whitsell: leave them completely defenseless against the quiet darkness that creeps in when the shift's over. Tonight we're dragging out the raw truth of the dark. We're sitting down with a veteran fire service officer from the Houston, Texas area who spent 15 years operating in high stakes, low manpower trenches of high volume public safety. His name's Heath Meredith. From frontline rookie and engine operator to captain to ride up battalion chief and training officer. Heath has lived the relentless reality of short staffed rigs and rural water challenges. He is an expert in the fire ground decision making, a sought-after speaker on firehouse culture, and the founder of the Third Alarm Cowboys, a movement built to bridge generational gaps and return the code of true accountability to the service. For years, Heath has been the architect of elite performance on the street, teaching hard, controversial conversations required to keep a firefighter successful off the clock. If you come here looking for these comfortable, safe, soft platitudes and excuses, you may want to find somewhere else to go listen to something. But if you're tired of the internal politics, if your firehouse morale is running on empty, and if you are searching for an unshakable mindset to survive the psychological demands of this life, you need to pull up a chair. Because the absolute toughest fist fight you will ever step into past the threshold of burning buildings is the battle to save the human behind the badge. Welcome back to A Silent World Within. And today, making her podcast debut is our perfect, impressive, amazing social
Angel Deaton: You
Kevin Whitsell: media manager and guest relations person, liaison, whatever your title is officially
Angel Deaton: Ha
Kevin Whitsell: on the website. so happy to have you with us. Heath, thank you for stepping in with us. Thank you for coming to our firehouse table kind of conversation. How are you today?
heathmeredith: I'm doing good, man. you definitely make me sound a whole lot cooler than what I really am. So I appreciate that.
Kevin Whitsell: Well well, I generally like to do that to my guest and myself. when I tell these stories and write these kind of intros and write the stories that we publish in Dark Horse Press, it it has to be a little cinematic. It has to grab the attention. So I really love doing
Angel Deaton: Yes.
Kevin Whitsell: it and and you meet all the check marks. Everything on there is true. So Angel, you can go into your part and
Angel Deaton: Yes.
Kevin Whitsell: and Let's get into it.
Angel Deaton: People are so excited to have you. I'm a little fangirling over here. My guys are gonna be so excited to hear your story firsthand. So we know when the firemen see a mental health podcast or a mental health clip or a mental health article in the paper that automatically scroll by, they pass it. They're like, oh, no, that's me. I'm good. Tell me why. It was important to you to say yes, to come join us and that that's a passion of yours.
heathmeredith: probably because I'm one of those guys. and
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: basically just in in full transparency for your listeners and everything, like I I'm an open book on everything. We're probably gonna talk about all kinds of stuff on this, on this podcast that most people maybe not even be comfortable with. And in starting that, like just in full transparency on my end, due to a lot of the things we may even talk about on this show, I all the ranks that you laid out, like I've held all those ranks, none of that is is made up. And then actually about, I guess, three years ago, I ended up going and starting over as a rookie. And so I'm back down to a firefighter rank. So even after 15 years in the job and I've been a captain nearly nine at that point, I went went to another department for a better climate for honestly for my head and for my family to be better and started over and rookied again at 34 years old. So if people, you know, listen to this, whatever, they're like, he's not a current captain. I'm no, I'm not a current captain. I was one for a long time. but yeah, my current rank is back to me in firefighter, and it goes along with a lot of of the mental health stuff. So I think that the fire service as a whole does a really good job this day and age about acknowledging that our mental health is is actually a thing. one of my very close friends is retired from the Marine Corps, and he said when he was actually getting out of the Marine Corps. They were doing their, I guess you call it like debrief orientation to like coming back to civilian life. And they were it the the military was giving like their big spiel on, you know, yeah, PTSD is a real thing. People are highly recognizing it with our military vets, especially after 20 years of of combat, you know, especially if you're in combat arms like he was and everything. but also understand that, and they're telling Marines that when you come out into civilian world. The guys that are actually suffering the most from PTSD and don't get recognized for it at all is actually the fire department because they are in it. And not only are they in it, but they're in it in their own community. So whether they're on duty or off duty, they're always in it.
Angel Deaton: one
heathmeredith: And so when he told me that, I was like, dang, man, that's that's like a real deal. So our military is recognizing it, but the fire service as a whole, man, like we are the absolute worst. And I've seen every 1-800 call me. Post on everybody's Facebook, you know, the Chiefs of the world's best about trying to prove we care about our firefighters'
Angel Deaton: Ha
heathmeredith: mental health. But then in turn, you know, we're doing things like what our last episode ended up getting bumped because, you know, I got to work overtime. So we'll mandatory people, you know, three, four days a week and not think that that has anything to do with mental health. But then we want to post on our Facebook pages for our departments how important mental health is to our firefighters. So for me, it's almost become a point where, and like in in full caveat, like going into all this. I do have a lot of things that that I'm very hyper-vigilant about that's in my mind that I'm paranoid about. that things that mess with me, I'll say that. And it's honest to God, not the blood in the guts from this this job. It's it's not the calls that get me. It's the inside the firehouses that get me and have me, I don't want to say messed up because I haven't controlled or anything like that, but what get me spun up is the the crisis of what our fire departments are doing. So that was really kind of what's made it where I'm like, fine, I'll be the guy to step up and say like what we got going on. And so I don't know if that answers your question, but that's kind of where the turning point for me was is over the last three to four to five years where it's like, hey, it's a whole lot more mental health is a whole lot more than just like the the touchy feely articles that people want to put out. There's a so much more to it
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: that somebody's got to say something.
Angel Deaton: Was there a point that that made you realize that maybe it was better to have these conversations like this across the kitchen table versus in the clinical standpoint or the clinical view? Because a lot of times I know that our guys need to hear that, somebody else feels the way I do. Was there a point that made you realize that?
heathmeredith: Probably not one, like specifically. It was probably like a culmination of a lot of different things. So like I've had friends that killed themselves. I've had friends that almost killed themselves. and a lot of time like it almost like reflection, like time periods of reflection, like after somebody kills themselves and you're like, How could they do this? you know, and you're just like totally confused and and then you start looking back over, say, the last three, four years that you were working with these guys, there was signs all along. Like it was not It you didn't recognize it because you're in the shit with them. Sorry. you're in the middle of it with them.
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: And but then it's like, man, they said this to me a year ago and I didn't catch it. They were doing this a year ago, I didn't catch it. And I I'm one of those guys that I really like to simplify because I think life is way overcomplicated. I think everybody tries to put like a a super special spin on everything so that they can make their million bucks. And like for me, I simplify everything down. Where it's like, you know, if a One of my good friends. I went to high school with this guy. He left, he was two years ahead of me. He left, went to the Marine Corps, fought in Fallujah, came back, did what a lot of those guys do, searching for brotherhood, searching for camaraderie, comes to the fire department, was a badass medic. And then I I guess throughout some time period, maybe 10 years of him coming back home after all that stuff, he started having a lot of mental struggles and whatnot. And I specifically remember him telling me multiple times, man, I'm thinking about going to re-enlisting because What I had in the core, I can't get. I thought I'd get at the fire department, but I can't get. I feel alone. I don't feel that brotherhood. And he would say that all the time, and I would just be like, no, man, it's fine. Like, you know, the crew you're with, or yeah, the chief sucks, things like that, but I didn't catch it. And then he ended up killing himself after a few years. And then now looking back, I'm like, he was telling me all along that he was missing something. you know, and I just in the middle of it, I didn't catch it. And I working in places you do. Sorry if I'm being too long-winded on this, but like working in places where you're really busy and you make a lot of runs, you make
Kevin Whitsell: You're perfect.
heathmeredith: a lot of fires, you kind of become accustomed to the dark side, if you will. life gets kind of dark in a lot of ways. For one, like we were talking before we started, like you get very fatigued, you get very run down, burnout becomes an issue. and then you work for a place where you're getting mandatory, mandatory, mandatory, and it just it's like it's a never ending cycle. You're so caught in the middle of the mud that you can't see what's going on around you. And I think that's where I was
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: at that point in time. So I didn't recognize where he was or where some of my other friends were. that was one story, I guess, per se, that was kind of a wake-up call. And then another has been doing my podcast. one of my original episodes, I had one of my very good friends on, which is Captain RJ Nepp. And he was going through like a really bad divorce. Lot of stuff, custody, all the typical crap that firemen got to go through because we make bad choices.
Angel Deaton: Have fun.
heathmeredith: And he told a story on there where he had a suicide attempt. And he literally said to me in there, like, I went to work to escape my reality because I could go be, I could go solve somebody else's problems when I'm on the clock, but I can't solve my own problems at home. And he
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: he literally used that as an escape, and he did it for years. and I was like, It was like a just, you know, a huge light bulb. I'm like, dude, I'm no different. I was doing the same. It's easier for me to go to work and work 96 hours on an ambulance making 20 runs a day than it is to be home when I was going through my divorce. And so like a lot of those things just for me, it's almost like looking back, you know, hindsight's 2020, you could see a lot. So there was just like example after example after example where I'm like, it this really is a real thing and somebody's got to get out ahead of it.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, absolutely. I
Angel Deaton: Okay, Kevin.
Kevin Whitsell: Well, I think that you bring up some extremely valid points, man. I resonate with a lot of that. I went through a divorce. I can't even remember the year now off the top of my head, I think it's two thousand thirteen, but I was working ninety six hours on an ambulance and that's kinda how I treated the ambulance service was that hey, that was my getaway. And really coped in that time very unhealthy. I never had a a suicide attempt. certainly got low enough to think about it and thought numerous times about, hey, I'll just alcohol poison myself. I'll drink until, you know, I can't drink anymore. And hopefully that'll get the job done. But really it was more the alcoholism for me during that time in my life that man, I was just hammering, hammering away. And really it was it was to get that getaway right. It was it was to have that relief of I'm so drunk I don't have to think about this and I can finally go to sleep. I can finally rest. So yeah, I mean I I can totally see that. But so one of the things that I think Third Alarm Cowboys does really well is it brings an immediate image of this rugged, independent firefighter. Like you are like just looking at you when I first jumped on the screen, I was like, this is a man's man here. Like this is the guy.
Angel Deaton: Hahaha!
Kevin Whitsell: You know, and you laugh at that, but really that that is the image that that firefighters give typically. I don't know if you've sorry. Travis Howes just released a book not long ago and it's amazing, but to hear him talk about like that that firehouse camaraderie that is just kind of naturally there, it does pull people into that world. But I think one of the things that people really don't take into account is that hey there's still a lot of old school like suck it up mentality in the fire service. So what is is kind of that moment for you that that you kind of realize like I can't get into this mindset. I have to do something different for myself.
heathmeredith: So I think it's a it's a double edged sword. I think that there's a time and place for everything. I think that that there is times where, you know, and and I'll be that guy. Like I am that John Lane guy. I was raised by my family, my grandpa's. I got basically two routes in in my family. You either got the fire service, you got the oil field. And of course, where I'm sitting right now, like you guys can see my my daughter's trophy saddle. I'm sitting on a 500-acre ranch in Texas and my cows are sitting right over there. I got to go feed them when we get off here. Like, I do have that background where it is like, hey, you got to suck it up. Cause there is times you got to. If you're on the fire ground and it sucks and it's hot because we're in Texas and you're on your second bottle, but the fire's not out yet. You haven't cleared your primary yet. You're exhausted, but there's nobody else coming, right? Or our mutual aid is already
Kevin Whitsell: Right. Yeah.
heathmeredith: here. There's nobody else coming. So at that point in time, it's like, yeah, we gotta suck it up. Like it sucks.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. yeah.
heathmeredith: You're, you know, you're gonna be chafed between your legs, your back's gonna be sore, like you're you're gonna hurt, but we have to do it now. But then there's also the other side of that knife where it's like, okay, but we just made, you know, and and I work in the hood for people that haven't like I've spent my entire career,
Angel Deaton: We've been there.
heathmeredith: yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, we've been there.
heathmeredith: I've spent my entire career working in the hood in Houston. And some of the highest crime rated areas in Texas. And so you see a lot of bad stuff. When you're in the middle of the chaos, like we made and it made, you know, national news and whatever, like we made a pretty bad shooting. or I'm sorry, yeah, we made a pretty bad shooting of a pediatric that was a drive-by incident, it was all over the news and all that kind of stuff. When you're in the middle of it, you gotta do your job. But then when you get back to the station
Kevin Whitsell: Right, sure.
heathmeredith: and like the chaos. To me, I think it's what messes a lot of people up because the chaos gets people so wound up they don't understand when that is actually supposed to turn off. you know, and like you gotta handle business in the middle of it. But when you come back to the station, and I I ask people in my lecture all the time, I'm like, when you talk about I talk about my brotherhood section and actually building a real brotherhood, everybody knows what that's that's like, like on the ambulance or whatever, you make a a gnarly ass PD call. And like coming back from the hospital after you dropped off or whatever, and like nobody says a word. You know, the engine is
Kevin Whitsell: Uh-huh.
heathmeredith: dead silent, the ambulance is dead silent. You're trying to process the chaos because you have to. you get back to the station, you go take your shower, you go kind of trying to debrief. You gotta let that chaos kind of come down. But that's the point whenever you can you can be like, all right, what now? What do we need to do now? And sometimes you may be at a station where like you don't get that opportunity. Like, boom, the next call comes in and we're right back
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: at it. We gotta go. And a lot of that stuff starts compounding. But at some point or another, that you still gotta go have that little bit if if you need the conversation. And like I'm I'm a very weird individual in the fact that there's very few calls where I do need to debrief, but I'm also the one to say, like, there is some that I do need to debrief. And it may not even be like a formal, you know. Critical incident stress management. Like I may not even need that whole deal, but like it's a bad pediatric call in which I run a call on a kid that fell
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: into the swim pool and drowned. My debrief I need is to go make a phone call to my wife for 15 minutes and let me hear my kids. Because I don't care
Kevin Whitsell: There we are.
heathmeredith: how good you are, I don't care how many years you've been in. When you run something that like I have a three-year-old child and I just ran a gnarly ass pediatric call on a three-year-old. I need to hear my baby's voice.
Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely.
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: And that's the debrief I need. Now, I'll be the first one to say I made three in one pay period. I made three pediatric drownings at my old department. Two of them we didn't get back, one we did get back. My kid was the same age at that time period as the ones that drowned. She did not go in a body of water that entire summer. Like I was like, we were scared of the lake, and I lived 20 minutes from one of the most beautiful lakes in Texas. We didn't go the lake. She didn't swim in the swimming pool. I had her like double life jacketed even with the little floaties on. Like, and I don't know if people understand that or not, but like that is PTSD. When you start projecting your fears of what you saw on the call on your own family, your kids, or whatever, like that is a form of the PTSD. And so it's taken me a lot to be able to process that and understand what it is. Like it's not, I don't need Oprah, I don't need Dr. Phil. I just need
Angel Deaton: Ha
heathmeredith: to be able to like know that my kids. It w didn't happen to my kid. and so for me, that's the debrief. Some people may actually need, like you run that gnarly ass call on a pediatric or or whatever, they may need to have like an actual team come in and talk to them. So it's kind of it's for me in the fire service, it's a lot of places, it's it's they're either all this or they're all that. It's all suck it up or it's all, hey, we gotta have Kumbaya session after every single call and we need to have. You know, the therapy dog come in. We got to have everything come in. There's no like nuance to it. There's no, hey, what works for you? Like, are you cool? Are you not? And that's a lot of that kind of comes into like the crew integrity stuff, which I could go way down the rabbit hole on that. But for me, that's kind of the deal is it's it's twofold on answering that question. There's times you gotta be a hard ass and suck it up because there's nobody else coming. And then there's times you need to handle your business and do what works for you on the debrief so that your brain can process things.
Kevin Whitsell: I absolutely love that answer. it's an angel note. Hey, no, no, no, no, no.
heathmeredith: And by no means, man, I am not a doctor. I'm not.
Angel Deaton: Yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: And you know, when we have doctors come on or we have doctors review our stuff from time to time, we really we really see such a myriad of answers and we really get to see the real clinical side of it as well. So no, definitely not a doctor answer, but it's an honest answer, and that's what we're looking for. I think that one of the things that we do really well, whether it be the fire service or EMS, there is this, and I like to think of it as the kitchen table effect. when everybody sits down to kinda kinda have a meal, there's a certain level of peer support that happens, right? whether we think of it that way or not, that is a an outflowing of some of those things. Why do you think that happens? Why do you think that there is such a relief when you sit down at that fire table and you start to just chat and things start to come out and people start obviously reliving calls and you get to kind of re experience it from a different vantage point.
heathmeredith: man, my favorite place to be at a fire station is at the kitchen table. Like we
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: I preach that big time. Any any station that doesn't have a good kitchen table is miss it honestly one of the biggest tools that you can have. because everything is discussed there. You know, you you start your day there, whether it's drinking coffee in the morning with the guys, which we do cheat a little bit at my station. We have a a really nice lounge out in the bay where we smoke cigars and stuff. But other than that, every other meeting session happens at the kitchen table. So I think
Kevin Whitsell: Right.
heathmeredith: because it's already like a known commonplace, you eat there together. you know, we the station, the crew that I'm with, we we cook our own meals. Like we're we're pretty big on on having that time. And it's not just the I think because it's everything is on the table there. Not only do you talk strategies and tactics, you know,
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: you you talk, you talk the shit on the chief there at the table, you know, you talk.
Kevin Whitsell: Ha ha
heathmeredith: we all joke, you know, we sit down for dinner and I don't care if we have dinner at 5 30 with the geriatric hours or if we've been running and we don't have dinner till nine o'clock, regardless of what crew you're on, the wives are always gonna somehow call when you sit down to eat. And so we'll
Angel Deaton: Yeah.
heathmeredith: you know, we take bets on well, whose wife's gonna call first, which it's usually mine. Like I swear to God, she can sense when I sit down at the table and I'm hungry. But,
Kevin Whitsell: Ha ha ha ha.
heathmeredith: you know, we joke about that stuff, but it's the truth. And then Every other thing that you talk about in some form or another is a version of the truth that's coming out. So just naturally, if you're already talking truth, whether it's family stuff, shit that's frustrating you with your kids, because your kids are driving
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: you nuts because it's summertime and you're ready for them to go back to school already, all that kind of stuff is already at the table.
Kevin Whitsell: Amen. Amen.
Angel Deaton: hahahaha
heathmeredith: So it's really easy for like other truths to come out. And I don't know, and and I could be wrong on this. I think one of the biggest injustice we do is is kind of and a lot of people will ask or whatever they'll say, like, you know, ask your guys if they're okay. Sometimes that's a little awkward. And I don't think we do a good job of actually like telling people like how to really do that. I think if you want to lead that kind of conversation, because it's like you don't come back to table and you sit back, you're like, Well, damn, what'd y'all think about that pediatric call? You know, that's you don't, I mean, but
Kevin Whitsell: Right.
Angel Deaton: No.
heathmeredith: But nobody ever really says, like, how do you, how do you even start that? And so I kind of think like, and and my captain is phenomenal at this because he's probably the most real, like real person, captain. Like a lot of captains were always kind of distant and stuff like that. Like he's
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: he's got kids that are the same age as my kids. We're he's only like three or four years older than me. We have a really good relationship. He's one of the guys that travels with me teaching. And like I he's my boss at the fire department, then I'm his boss with the Thur Warren Cowboys. So he's a very,
Angel Deaton: That's great.
heathmeredith: very, very real person to me. And he does a great job of we come to the table and like whatever, say we make a bad call or whatever, he he's usually the first one to kind of start the conversation and be like, you know, that I really didn't like how that happened. I really didn't like. That whatever. So I I hate coming back on pediatric, but I think that's that's kind of one of the only things that actually bothers me. But he's
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: like, he'll he'll be the one that's like openly, he's like, man, why does that stuff have to happen to kids? And so because he's sharing, it automatically makes everybody else start being like, okay. It's not like a pressured conversation of, are you okay, man? You know, and so like everybody's gonna be like, yeah, man, I'm good. But if you he comes to the table and he's like, Why is the why is it the little babies that got to drown? You know, that opens it up where it's like you're
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: already seeing his the thing that's bothering him. So I'm like, man, I don't know, dude, but this shit it it bothers me too. Like when I do get to heaven, that's gonna be the one the first questions I ask.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: And so I kind of think that maybe it's just my kitchen table that's got that vibe, but that's that's how it is. And so it really it opens up everything where the the kitchen table for us is. a hundred and fifty percent like truth. and and I I wish I hope every fire department can have that type of deal. I know that's not the case, but that's how it works for us. So
Kevin Whitsell: So I guess you bring up a good point. It you know, with a chief like that, and I guess I strive to be a leader who does a very similar thing. Like when there's tragedy or something that our team experiences, and I don't know if you know some of my background, but I'm a manager for a large pediatric and neonatal critical care team. so we go by air, ground, fixed wing jet all over the country if we need to. but really we see a lot of Especially here in Memphis. God, it's awful. we see a lot of child abuse cases, like a ton. So when we have those, those are particularly stressing for our folks. so I'll start a conversation very similar to like what your chief does. So why in that conversation are and I'm gonna pick on you firemen, but why are you firemen who walk into burning buildings every day and don't bat an eye? Why are you willing to share in that kind of atmosphere? Why are you willing to share there? But you're absolutely terrified to go into anybody that's professional help and share in that way.
heathmeredith: Mm, that's a good question.
Angel Deaton: Bye.
heathmeredith: I hate I hate trying to be able to be the one to answer for everybody, you know. I I could say for me, I don't necessarily have that problem, mainly because I have experience in dealing with professional settings. So, like, which I mean, my parents put me in when I was in high school because I was a mean kid and I loved to fight. So like I started having to deal with the shrink whenever I was in high school because they were they thought
Angel Deaton: Yeah.
heathmeredith: something was wrong with me. And after going to multiple anger management sessions and everything like that, like the the therapist or whatever he was. I I'm I'm I guess he is a psychologist, whatever, because he could write prescriptions. So I'm gonna assume he was not just a counselor, but he know tell my parents like, ain't nothing wrong with him. He's just mean. But
Angel Deaton: Thank
heathmeredith: for me, I I don't
Kevin Whitsell: Dang.
heathmeredith: I don't know
Angel Deaton: He's just a boy.
heathmeredith: I don't know if this is a good answer, but I guess maybe it's the the I don't want to say I'm accustomed to it because I don't go all the time. I've only been, I went whenever I was a kid, and then I went whenever I was going through a pretty gnarly divorce. I basically wanted to make sure that I was squared away. I think maybe it's a misconception or or a lack of education and understanding. Like you can go to that, that formal doctor, if you will, I call them that just a formal
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: doctor's office and like they're not gonna burn you. I think that firefighters trust other firefighters in a setting because they think that it's not gonna go anywhere. Because I'm like, hey, if I talk to my crew that also is having the same problems that ran the same call, I
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: know it's not gonna go anywhere because I got dirt on them and they got dirt on me. Whereas
Angel Deaton: Bye.
Kevin Whitsell: Ain't that the truth.
heathmeredith: they don't wanna go to to a doctor and talk because maybe they have the feeling that like somehow that's gonna get leaked and it's gonna end up screwing up their career. And I tie that together with my understanding of a lot of like the military guys that I've worked with, that they got out of military and they had back injuries, they had bodily injuries, but there was such a, there was a long time period where it's like, hey, if you have a back injury, like you, you can't, that's a disqualifier to get into the fire department. So they would lie about their back injury from military service so they could get that fire department job. And and ultimately where all that was all coming from is when those cases did happen. I wouldn't think they, I don't think they happened as much as people think they do, but they did happen. It was the doctor leaking that information back to the fire department, like, yeah, man, he's you know, he's got to hurt back from military
Angel Deaton: way.
heathmeredith: service. And and so, whatever, it would be a disqualifier, it would hurt them in their job. And so I would think maybe some of that is left over from that, and it's just maybe a an educational point that needs to happen. and then also maybe some. Some doctors need to have the understanding that, like, if we are opening ourselves up and coming in on this, like you can't burn us on it. You can't, even if the fire department, like my fire department does bring in counselors and stuff. And
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, yeah.
heathmeredith: I don't think that they leak it, but it looks really awkward when the fire chief is bringing in counselors to come in and talk to guys about drinking or drugs or things like that. Like I I know this because I've talked to the chief. He's bringing it in to try to help the guys. Because we've had a lot of alcohol alcohol related incidents at my department. But when the guys
Angel Deaton: Bye.
heathmeredith: see the chief is bringing in a doctor to come talk to you about addiction issues or mental
Angel Deaton: I don't know.
heathmeredith: health issues, but it's kind of sort of fire department sanctioned, there can be that that paranoia of, well, man, if I go in there and say that I'm drinking, you know, a a bottle of whiskey a day, they're gonna run back and tell the chief I'm drinking a bottle of whiskey a day. So I think a lot of that is kind of self-inflicted on why guys won't do it because they don't want to lose their
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: jobs. They don't want to get in trouble with their jobs. So it's easier for them to just not say anything in that setting. I know that's a long-winded answer, but that's just kind of what I think.
Kevin Whitsell: No, no, I no, I love it. I I love these long winded answers. You're doing great for podcast guests. I mean, I love the long winded. You take
heathmeredith: Yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: the spotlight away from me. I don't have to say as much. And the listeners love that too, because nobody likes listening to me
Angel Deaton: Yes.
Kevin Whitsell: talk. it's all about the guests, right? but I do, I think that's a really good answer. I think that it it is there's so much trust within not only the fire service, but every public servant kind of environment. And it is easier to talk to our brothers or our sisters, you know, that stand right beside us in all these calls. you know, I can have a conversation with Angel that I would not have with somebody in the general public. but I also think and one of the things that I experienced very early on in, you know, reaching out to someone for professional help, were soon after my divorce, it was not long. I overwhelmed the counselor. Like with some of the stuff that I'd seen and dealt with and was dealing with. And, you know, obviously I was going in with for support about my divorce, but once they start asking you all the questions like, What do you do for a living? Okay, what's that look like? You know, what do you experience in that? And you start talking about some of it, the counselor had no idea what to say. I mean, they're like, gosh, you know, how do you see this? So I think it's important that you, if you're gonna reach out for professional help, that you go to somebody who's trauma informed and you go to somebody who, if it's available in your area, somebody that works with first responders in some extent or has been a first responder themselves. And sometimes that's harder to find. And if you guys listen ever need those resources, please reach out to us so that we can provide that. We've got a state list. that we can get to you from every state that we've gotten from conferences and other things that are vetted counselors in each state that you can reach out to that that obviously in the day and age that we live in, technology is a fantastic thing and many of these counselors are now doing either only telehealth or they have the telehealth option to choose from. So, you know, you can get with a first responder trained counselor and think it's super important. But I think this this transitions well because The next part that Angel will kinda go into kind of plays into this a little bit. So Angel, I'll let you kind of take it away and go from kinda your standpoint and your specialty. So you can take that for
Angel Deaton: Thank
Kevin Whitsell: sure 'cause that's not mine.
Angel Deaton: So he's from a social media and public relations perspective. Like after starting Third Alarm Cowboys, how quickly did people start reaching out and who looked fine on beauty but were falling apart at home? Like at what point did they realize, hey, he gets it.
heathmeredith: Ooh, Pretty much almost immediate. So my first few episodes were were very inflammatory. and it was I've actually, you know, I'm 120-something episodes in now. So people kind of laugh at me when they go back and listen to the original stuff. For one, my my software and technology was not riverside, so it was absolutely horrendous. I don't even like listening to it because the audio
Angel Deaton: Thank
heathmeredith: quality was terrible. and it
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, same.
heathmeredith: was audio only. And so You know, and and a lot of the stuff, like I was, I was carrying a lot of anger for one, and I was kind of more or less trying to make a statement and a lot like people will listen to my stuff and they'd be like, if you don't like a a four-letter word, don't listen to my podcast. So I was very much so into that, and that grabbed a lot of attention. I mean, pretty much immediately. And I started talking about, which obviously I was talking about real life issues. But it was I honest to God, like within the first three episodes, I'm getting messages from guys talking about their divorce, talking about their fire chief, talking about their fire crew, talking about drug addiction, alcohol addiction. I mean, it was just, it was absolutely immediate. Where and guys would just, I mean, it it was almost I I you could go through my my my DMs on social media and Aside from the department they work for, their state that they're from, damn near everyone's story, which is now thousands and thousands of DMs, everyone's story is the same. And, you know, there there's little nuances in there, obviously, but everyone's story is the same. And it's like, Jesus, man, like, it was a major slap to the face for me that I'm like,
Angel Deaton: Mmm.
heathmeredith: I started off like basically trying to be a voice for like the guys I knew around the Houston area. And then within three episodes, I'm getting messages from coast to coast. And I'm like, for
Angel Deaton: Wow.
heathmeredith: well, man, I've never even been to Seattle, Washington. How the hell have you heard of this podcast? And it was just like
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: that. And so it was honestly, it was pretty much immediate. And it was that same deal. Like, you know, I'm dealing with this. thank you for for saying it, blah, blah, blah. I was going home every day and feeling like I was the only person on the planet. And then now I know there's two of us. And I'm like, well, no, actually, man, there's thousands of us. So
Angel Deaton: Right. Right.
heathmeredith: Pr pretty quick, I guess is the answer to that.
Angel Deaton: Yeah. So in real life situations, what does that peer support look like in the firehouse on the daily?
heathmeredith: For one, like, and I just released an article this week actually talking about what's what's crew integrity. And of course I immediately, it's like everything else, I got tons of tons of comments, tons of shares, tons of of reactions, whatever. And it was basically like the same answer over and over again. And, you know, I think, and I I I'm the guy to beat up Chiefs. I'm not, I'm not scared of beating up a chief. But I think that we get so caught up in the fire service, especially today's day and age where staffing is an issue everywhere. We can't hire enough medics. We can't hire when everybody's struggling. We're too busy trying to fill like payroll numbers and basically put asses in seats where we forget about that simple crew integrity. And it's like it's
Angel Deaton: No.
heathmeredith: it's it's very, very simple, but it's basically like the peer support comes in of actually knowing your guys. So like if I rode with y'all on a truck for you know, let's just say a month, I'm gonna start knowing how y'all tick. So, and especially you start riding like with me and my guys, we've been together three years now. And like, of course, obviously I kind of have a little bit of a heads up because we travel the country together. We spend a lot of time together with families and all that. But even if you took all that off the table, just riding with these guys every week for three years, I know what makes them tick. I know when they come walking in at night after we made a call or or the next morning and They sleep later than what they normally do. Okay. That means they're tired. When they come in and they work their other job that, you know, before shift and they're dragging ass, like I know they're tired. Little things like that start picking up on. It also goes into the cause. If we come back to the cause and I know that normally, like, especially say I got, you know, the rookie that we we've have right now, we've had him probably eight months. This dude is a, he was a D2 football, collegiate football player. You can't beat this guy down. He drives me insane because we'll make a fire and we're coming back, and us older guys are like, I need an ibuprofen, I need some electrolytes, and I need to go to bed.
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: And this dude's like, I'm ready for the next fire. We make a call and he doesn't come back with that same level of like enthusiasm. Okay, I'm starting to recognize some stuff. So that's where that, I guess, like the peer recognition or whatever, or you know,
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: having that strong crew, it all comes down to crew and tell you. Like when you're bouncing in, it's basically like, Hey, you're a certification and a number, and I'm putting you on this truck for the day, or I'm putting you on that truck. I can't recognize that stuff in a guy that I don't know. And
Angel Deaton: Right. Right.
heathmeredith: so I think the fire service does a terrible job at that. Leave guys with guys that know them. And there's always going to be people that move stations because they're promoting or things like that happen, but that's a choice. But if you'll put people where they know the person, that peer support group can be way stronger. It's just like at home. Right. If you don't have like I I'm very fortunate, my parents live a hundred yards that way, my brother lives a hundred yards that way. If I need somebody to watch my kids, that's my support group because I need to run to town to go do something. I holler at my sister-in-law or my brother, I'm like, hey, I I'm sending my kids up to your house. Right. That's your that's your support network at home. It's no different at the fire department. But if you don't have that, because you're from a broken home with a fire department where you got split parents and one lives in Alabama and one lives in Tennessee and you're just stuck here on your own or whatever. That's what we're doing to our guys, and we wonder why they have no peer support
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: network. Shit's not complicated. So
Angel Deaton: Yes, yes. Which leads me to think two things. When I left the fire department, I'm telling you it was six months. Somebody would be like, well, how's the new job? And I'd be like, I can't talk about it. The new job's great, but I miss my guys terribly. Like I was with them for eight years and I had the best lieutenant and the best captain that there was. And I just, I knew where the Lord was leading me. I knew where I needed to be. I knew what I was supposed to do best for my family, but losing that family atmosphere at the fire department, it wrecked me for a while. But that also leads me to think, what were you hearing from the guys that were reaching out that their spouses were seeing at home before they recognized, there's something wrong. I need to get some help.
heathmeredith: Ooh, probably the same thing my wife says, my wife can tell whenever I'm spun up pretty bad because I'm just like everybody else, you know, especially in our industry, like obviously your temper rise rises. Like that's gonna be one of the first
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: signs. Like if somebody starts getting short with you, something's on their mind. They may not even know it. And like a lot of times I won't even know it. My wife's like, Hey, you're being short. And I'm like, Am I? She's like, Yeah. Like you're you're being short with the kids, you're being short with me, you're being short with the dogs. Like You're being short. And so that's a big, like a big thing that people will recognize when somebody starts getting getting a little short. obviously there's like deeper stuff when guys aren't sleeping or they're having the bad nightmares. And all I'm I'm fortunate, I've never been that guy. I don't the only nightmares and like I I'm probably not the best on the mental health deal, but I have never had like the suicidal things. I have homicidal tendencies. So When I start getting mad and everything like that, like I'm not trying to hurt myself. I'm trying to hurt, you know, the lying ass fire chief or the the the crooked ass mayor or whatever that's hurting
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: me. I'm gonna hurt them. So I'm kind of that guy. I don't, I'm not the one that's ever gone to a dark place and want to hurt myself. I'm like, God gave me five daughters because if he didn't, there'd be some dead fire chiefs out there. So that's kind of where my head goes. And so my wife can understand that
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: when I start getting short. it it's it's due to something at at work and honestly most of the time it has nothing to do with the cause that we even are in most of the time it's a it's a toxic nature it's lying it's backstabbing that kind of stuff that's going on so for me that's probably the deal a lot of the spouses guys being disconnected i've gotten that message like they come home and they're disconnected they're not they're being very distant either from them or from the kids Or they're not going home. you know, they're they're pulling that card like what what we talked about earlier with my buddy, like they're pulling that card of like working all the OT that they possibly can. And the wife is like, I just want you to come home. Like at this point in time, we don't need the money. I'd rather you be here. And they're just like, No, I want a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. and honestly, I probably see that more than anything where guys are working a lot of overtime, they're working their part-time jobs, and they're not going home. And They're hiding from it. They don't understand that, like you, you kind of got to go home. and it's not
Angel Deaton: Yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: even lessarily a bad relationship at home. It's just they actually would have to turn it off if they went home. And and the wives, a lot of times, I think wives are better at recognizing it than husbands are.
Angel Deaton: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: husbands just get mad. A lot of the husbands I've met, they don't they don't even like their wife being in the fire department because she's up there, you know, around a bunch of dudes. So that's a whole other conversation. But I I think
Angel Deaton: Right.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: that's the biggest thing is is the wives recognize. a level of distance that's kicking in and then a a shorter temper.
Kevin Whitsell: So so there's a few things here that I want to pull out. And you you made a statement that really took me back some years ago and Angel knows this about me. Most of the listeners have heard me reference this before, but so I'm in my second and final marriage currently
Angel Deaton: Thank
heathmeredith: Same.
Kevin Whitsell: and yeah.
Angel Deaton: Same.
Kevin Whitsell: and very early on in our relationship I found myself in an affair. And because I was in this affair having to keep up with the lies, having to do all the things, I didn't want to go home either. And I think you make an interest that the way you put it was really ideal for for what's coming next is that if you go home, you have to turn it off. And we hate to turn it off.
heathmeredith: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Whitsell: and she looked at me that day and said, before she knew that there was an affair happening. She said, You love this ambulance more than you love me. And I remember being so hurt by that. because no, I don't. I was unhappy in other areas and and chose a path that did not align with what I believed, did not align with my core values as a Christian man. it didn't even go with the identity that I had put on myself as a man, period. it was just one of those things that started as a friendship and just slowly faded into something else. and and I think we get so enthralled in some of those things sometimes, whether it be a relationship like that or whether it be something else that you focus all your time into. But we tend to be almost like that little ADHD kid. And and this is coming from the large ADHD kid. but we get
Angel Deaton: You
Kevin Whitsell: so hyper focused on one thing, and and me and Daniel Sundial from Dance and Artwork talked extensively about this. we get so focused on this one thing that turning turning it off feels so scary to us. And talk about that a little bit. Have you ever had that moment or seen friends or seen colleagues to where The quiet is the most dangerous place. Where when it all stops, everything starts to fall in.
heathmeredith: 100%. I I mean, I'm that guy. So shit, so much so that I've even created my entire side business is still fire department, right? so I I'm a firm believer and people arguing me on this. I'm a firm believer that like basically every first responder is an addict. And it doesn't necessarily mean that it's drugs or alcohol, but we're we're an addict because You're not gonna do this type of job, whether it's on a box, whether it's on a fire truck, or whether it's being a cop. And that's not a form of addiction for you. that's the reason why you take a guy like me who likes to be at a hot house and you stick me over at the slow station and I'm going insane. that's I I am a firm believer in that. And so I think that it really kind of starts going like with what you're talking about. Guys start making those types of mistakes, because that's what they are, because it's chasing an an addiction. It's it's a you get into the science part, but it's a dopamine rush, right? Like having an affair is a dopamine
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: rush. that
Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. That's it.
heathmeredith: that 30 30 minutes of a good time is a dopamine rush. That's what it is for us. So
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: we get that same thing, whether it's fighting fire, whether it's, you know, you're going to a major entrapment on the ambulance where they're, you know, calling for this. Or whether you're you're running a CPR and you're trying to run all the stuff through your mind of what all that you gotta do on running that code, like that is all an adrenaline rush, some form or another. And so we're addicts. We're we are addicts. and it and me coming from a guy which I I still drink, but I don't drink like I did whenever I was younger, and I'm not doing the drugs that I was when I was younger.
Kevin Whitsell: Same, yeah. Yeah.
heathmeredith: So and like even now I don't I don't even take Tylenol now because I was pretty bad into the pill game whenever I was a younger guy. So even just that motion of taking pills opens up a door in my mind where I'm like, ooh, I kind of missed that. So I don't do that. And that's been 13 years ago. the thing when it comes to like the fire department and and chasing that, you gotta understand that and I I do talk about it at the end of my lecture, but you gotta understand eventually you're not gonna be able to do it. And I think that that's kind of where we are, and I don't have an answer for that yet. Like I'm obviously I I have like
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: 12 years left, but I am kind of planning my exit plan. from the fire service of running calls, but I'm doing it in a training route. But I don't think we as an industry completely, I don't think we have an off-ramp on this. Just like the military, you hear like every SEAL in the world talks about it. When they get out of the SEAL teams, they're they're used to running on a on a train that's doing a thousand miles an hour and and it's basically a one-dimensional job, right? Because there's nothing outside of of the SEAL teams that you skydive and you And you dive in the water and you kick doors down and you blow shit up and you do. There's no job that I can go sign up to do that. There's no job that I can go sign up to be a firefighter except for being a firefighter. So we're kind of like
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, yeah.
heathmeredith: a very one-dimensional thing that we do for 20 to 30 years of our life with no off-ramp. And so I don't, I don't necessarily have an answer, but I can say that like I know exactly what you're talking about because. I've seen it with multiple people, man. Like Houston Fire Department. So Houston Fire Department is one of the most well-funded pension systems in the entire world. And what, which I don't work for them, I work for a county department that's inside the city limits of Houston. But because I've spent my whole career with Houston guys working with us part-time, I know
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: a lot of their stuff. and most of our chiefs are Houston guys. But basically, people don't know the reason that their pension is one of the most well-funded is because. Guys stayed on the job so long that all the money that they paid in, they died and they didn't get to keep their pension, and it's in their clause of the pension.
Angel Deaton: No.
heathmeredith: The money rolls back into the general fund. So their entire pension is literally like, it's like high 90 percentile self-funded. And it's because of that, because guys don't know how to get on that off ramp. And then when they do, there's a bunch of guys that I know that literally spent 40, 45, 50 years on the job. They retired, and within one year of retiring, they died. And so their money rolled back in because they outlived their spouse. They out, I mean, just all the horror stories that go along with that. But like they worked their whole life to get this pension and it goes back to the damn city. And so
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: I don't have an answer per se for that, but I do have a diagnosis
Angel Deaton: Thank you.
heathmeredith: of what it is. I just don't know
Angel Deaton: Well.
heathmeredith: exactly how we tell firefighters, like, outside of this, you need to build something else. Outside of
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
Angel Deaton: Okay.
heathmeredith: this, you need to have an identity in something else. For me, it's this ranch. For me, it's my kids. I know a lot of guys don't have that. They're living in an apartment complex somewhere, you know, and they're not married or whatever. So like their outside life is is chasing girls at the bar and and being a single fireman, which I did all that. I have nothing, no problem with that. But there's no
Angel Deaton: Okay.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: off rent for a lot of people. So I I get what you're saying. I just I don't have an answer.
Kevin Whitsell: It's it's so funny the way that these stories and kind of what we do here at A Silent War Within gets kind of woven into my personal life
Angel Deaton: Thanks
Kevin Whitsell: somehow. I was just having a conversation not an hour before I was finally able to get on. I was late, but which I hate. That's one of my pet peeves. But I was having a conversation about an hour previously with Jason, who is the other host for a silent war within. Jason and I were talking just earlier about this retirement thing and Five Arrows Forge, which is his coaching company, is our first official founding sponsor for the podcast. So we're actually getting sponsored by his company. And of course, it's so that we both can gain a business reputation from it and grow ourselves and and and be better. in reality, Angel will probably get the majority of the investment because she does much of the work. but I It's it's funny that that retirement thing comes up when you talk about the quiet of the room and that's really the most quiet that firefighters, EMS, whoever will have at the end of their career when it's all over with. What are you
heathmeredith: Yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: after this? and I think that it's so important that even if you are that single fireman that's out for lack of better terminology, chasing tail and and living the single life and doing what single guys do. it's still important to build something that you can have that, whether it's like you're doing in in education and podcasting and like we're doing and podcasting and a nonprofit that will allow us to to to train other first responders. And I'm going back to get my counseling degree and all this stuff. Whatever it is, you have to find something that when
heathmeredith: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Whitsell: that quiet room finally hits, when you're forty five, fifty-five, whenever you walk away from it. You have to have something that's gonna dull that quiet a little bit. And I I think that that's important. So what what do you say? And and you mentioned it in some of your stories, but like the pills, the alcohol, and I've had experience with both of those myself. like the pills and alcohol, you're sitting across from a firefighter who's struggling with this. How do you force him to look himself in the mirror and see what he's become?
heathmeredith: man, I actually had that story. So, I mean, we all know the fire service is very, very, very small. So, one of my original episodes that I actually talked about and and put all my business out there, I ended up having a guy reach out to me. And this has been a couple years ago now, because I guess I've been doing my show for like almost four years. That was one of the original ones. So it's probably been two years ago the guy reached out to me, and I just told my stuff. Like totally told my story, everything I did.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: The the basically it was my come clean on myself episode. And it and it was honestly,
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: I put all my business out there. So I don't have any skeletons in the closet. I don't want to be one of these dudes that's like, you know, I I do something and then you know, I have somebody try to come after me and say, well, he did this 20 years ago, whatever. I'm like, nah, it was already public, so you can go on with that. I, you know, I'm that guy. So I put all my business out. And this dude comes to me, calls me, actually knew a guy that I used to work with 10 plus years ago, got my number through him, calls me, and he's like, Hey man, you telling all the stuff you did about how you took your pills, about when you took your pills, just I mean, literally laying out the itinerary,
Angel Deaton: Thank you.
heathmeredith: if you will.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: He's like, dude, you were literally talking about me. And I'm like, No, I wasn't, I don't even know you. And he's like, No, I'm telling you, I was so mad at you because.
Angel Deaton: Okay. Okay.
heathmeredith: I literally had no choice but to look in the mirror because I was doing the exact same stuff, doing it the exact same way. And so he ended up, whatever struck a nerve with him, he went and looked himself in the mirror and he ended up going to the center of excellence up there, the IFF one. And
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: and anyways, now he's been sober for I guess two years now. But it was literally like that. Like it was just me being so brutally honest about the stuff I did that guys had no choice but to be like, Yeah, he's talking about how he used to take two narcos before he'd go to the bar. Then at midnight he took two more two more narcos so he could take a chick home. And then, I mean, anybody that knows anything about taking pain pills and doing extracurricular activities, you're kind of like
Angel Deaton: Thank you.
heathmeredith: a superman. So there's no denying that. And I would say that stuff, and he's like, I'm doing the exact same thing for the same reason. And so anyway, it just is funny. And then now, you know, small world, but now that guy's ended up, he's actually come to work at my department. and he's on my on my shift. So I get to see him all the time. He's like, who would have ever thought something that you said four years ago would end up creating that? But I guess for me, it's just really just being the brutally honest person that tells my stuff. And so it would strike a nerve with somebody and it and it's probably gonna piss them off. You know, whether, especially you start
Angel Deaton: .
Kevin Whitsell: Sure.
heathmeredith: talking about cheating on your wife and things like that, they're gonna be mad at you at the time. But then they're gonna look at themselves in the mirror and then your words are gonna be ringing in the back of their mind. Cause like there's not a game out there that I haven't pulled. And so when I put all that out there, some guys get mad because I'm giving up the secrets. And so, you know, they might feel like they can get caught. But then at the same time in giving up the secrets, they're like, I'm doing the same thing. And so they may have the maturity at that point in time to change their ways, or they may hide behind it for another three or four or five years, but eventually they're gonna be like, okay, I pulled the same game as this guy. doing the same crap, I can I can get better or whatever, I can fix my life and eventually be in the same place as him, like healthy or whatever, good relationship at this point, whatever. They can see a light at the end of the tunnel if they kind of more more or less fix their ways. And it's just from coming clean. That that's the only way I feel about
Angel Deaton: Right. So a massive piece of your mission at the Third Alarm Cowboys is to rebuilding true authentic brotherhood in an industry plagued by industrial friction, toxic leadership, administration, moral injury. How do we protect the crew? at the floor level in the field when leadership is actively breaking their spirits.
heathmeredith: yeah, I mean that's pretty much what my entire platform has kind of become into. you know, and a lot of guys have heard
Kevin Whitsell: Yep, I'm interested for this.
heathmeredith: of the firehouse fist fights and and
Angel Deaton: I love it.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: all that kind of stuff. So I mean, honestly, like, you know, for me it's not all talk. For me, it's not, I'm not just trying to sell a shirt. Obviously, it's part of my lecture. Obviously, I do have the shirt and stuff, but like I literally I was telling y'all before we got on, we taught the new higher academy at my fire department. And at my department. And and I encourage this everywhere. I know it doesn't necessarily work for EMS, but at a fire department, we have silver badges and we have gold badges, right? Captains and up or lieutenants and up have a gold badge. Silver badges is EOs and down. We have silver badge meetings, and then there's gold badge meetings. And it's very, very, very understood in my department. Like I can literally look at my captain and say, hey, Cap, silver badge meeting, get out. And he respects that and he walks away. And he knows because we have the understanding. If it goes to a gold badge, that means it's got to have paperwork put on it. So we
Angel Deaton: Mmm.
heathmeredith: had that very, very established line. Now, because they get to have their officer meetings and they get to go plan the department and do all their stuff and plan policies and all that kind of mess. So if they can have gold badge meetings, by God, we can have silver badge meetings. And it all starts off like literally these guys, when they came in the other day, and this was their new hire orientation. They did their week-long, you they had their few days in admin where they're doing their paperwork crap.
Angel Deaton: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: with admin and then I get them for three days on a fire field. And there was a couple several silver badge meetings that go on during that where I'm like, hey,
Angel Deaton: All right.
heathmeredith: you know, it's performance-based conversations or it's cultural based, whatever. And I tell these guys, I'm like, you're coming in the fire service. A lot of you never worked in this before. Like you're gonna see A, B, and C. You're gonna have these things go on. I don't care what department it is, all departments are the same. The patch is just different. But one thing you must do starting day one is understand that communication at that kitchen table is where it's all gonna start. Guys are gonna talk strategies and tactics
Kevin Whitsell: Mm.
heathmeredith: with you there. They're gonna talk about, you know, we're gonna talk about our wives, we're gonna talk about our kids, we're gonna talk about everything under the sun happens at that
Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely.
heathmeredith: table. And another part of that is gonna be that brotherhood talk. When you're, you know, if you didn't pull a line, you screwed a lineup on that call, I'm gonna ask you why you, why'd you mess that up? You didn't catch the hydrant. I'm going ask you that. And it goes on
Kevin Whitsell: Uh-huh.
heathmeredith: so on and so forth in having that truthful conversation, not just about operations, but it may go into other things like, hey, man, why didn't you take the trash out? Why didn't you put the dishes up? You're making us look bad as a crew. You need to step your game up. Whatever that looks like, we have to have those conversations. And I literally start that from day one. I've done that my entire career. When I was an officer, and this is how brutal I get. But it goes back to that. You want brotherhood and you want to be truly making a difference. It's a brutal ass conversation. Females,
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: you're a female, okay? You may not like this, but this is literally what I would do as an officer. I don't necessarily do it now because I don't have that position in power. But I will literally look at a female, and this is actually the first time in my entire career I haven't had a female on my crew. chiefs would actually put the females with me because I would do this. They couldn't say it, but I knew it was a deal. Female on my crew. Come in here like, look, I love you. This is my expectations of you. You're a female in the fire service. It's gonna be brutal. You are gonna have to step your game up and you're gonna have to prove the guys wrong. Like it, don't
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: like it, whatever. But that's the truth of it.
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: The other truth of it is this: you're a female. I got five daughters, and I'm married. Females got problems. I don't have that problem, but females got monthly problems that y'all have to deal with. Okay.
Angel Deaton: Right?
heathmeredith: I'm sorry. You were born that
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: way. There's nothing I can do about it. But this is the deal. I'm married to my wife, and excuse the language on this, but this is literally how I would say it. I'm married
Kevin Whitsell: You're good.
heathmeredith: to my wife who I sleep with, and I don't tolerate her being a bitch. I understand
Angel Deaton: Yes
heathmeredith: you have bad hormone issues, but that's basically, I'm sorry, but that's a you problem, and it doesn't excuse you getting to be a bitch to the guys at this station. If you come to me
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: and you're like, Cap, I'm struggling. I'm hurting. Whatever. I need some space. I will let you have that all day long. You go handle yourself just like I tell my daughters. Like if you're in a bind and you're hurting, because I don't know what that's like, but I understand it's a real thing. I've been sent to the store
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: to buy plenty of pads and stuff in my life. Go in there and
Kevin Whitsell: Me too.
heathmeredith: if you need your quiet time, go have your quiet time. I'm not going to take that away from you, but understand that you don't get
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: to come in here and be rude to people just because of that issue. And I have yet. To have a female on my crew that actually had a problem with that. They're Cap, we actually really appreciate that. Because most people are scared to death of having that talk, right? Most dudes are like, I'm
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: not going and buying 10 packs. It's some cotton. Get over it. Like it's cotton in a sticky pad. But like people are scared of
Angel Deaton: Right, right, right.
Kevin Whitsell: The matter, yeah.
heathmeredith: it. And so, like, even when it came to that, I was always just brutally honest with that. And I, every female that ever worked for me truly respected that. And it would even go, I
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: mean, that level of just Conversation, regardless of topic, but I like to use that one because people will that blows people away the most. Like you said that to
Kevin Whitsell: yeah.
heathmeredith: girls? Yeah. I mean, why not? Right? and so for me, it was a lot of
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: a lot of just being brutally honest, even in those really awkward ass conversations. But when you say that to somebody and you tell them, like, hey man, I understand if you need some quiet time. I understand if your emotions are all over the place. I get it. I don't know what it feels like, but I get it. Just tell me,
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: and then you can go go to your room. And if the chief comes down,
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: it's got some smart shit to say, I'm the station captain. Yeah. So that's just kind of how I
Angel Deaton: handle it. Right. That's awesome.
heathmeredith: feel about it. And I and I think a lot of guys in our industry are so scared to death. And I don't know if it's because I blame it on HR a lot, like on my platform. I blame it on the lawyers. I blame it on HR. I blame it on the corporate America, what I call corporate rot. That has come into the fire service. I
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: blame it on all that because that is ultimately what it is. But the guys can fix
Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely.
heathmeredith: it. The guys can start having
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: those type of conversations at the kitchen tables and amongst each other and everything. And there's nothing HR can do about it. Cause I have yet
Kevin Whitsell: You're exactly right. Mm-hmm.
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: to have an HR director that was at my station at two o'clock in the morning. Never had it. So we
Angel Deaton: Right. Right.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm mm.
heathmeredith: can fix that internally and they don't even have to know. But it takes the guys being able to be like, hey, silver badge meeting, gold badge meeting. Hard conversation, and I don't even necessarily like calling
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: them hard conversations because to me it's not hard.
Angel Deaton: Right?
heathmeredith: Like if you another caveat to it, excuse the the lewdness, but it's just kind of what it is. I'm like, man, you I'm married, right? I married a Cajun woman who's five
Kevin Whitsell: Lord.
heathmeredith: five and a hundred and ten pounds. This woman is amazing and we have a great relationship. But if you listen to us, sometimes we literally sound like a Jerry Springer episode. And I live
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: with her. If you think ever in your career that you're gonna live with people just like you live with your spouse, just like you live with your mom and dad, just like you live with your kids, and at some point or another, they're not gonna piss
Kevin Whitsell: Not the same.
heathmeredith: you off, you're absolutely delusional. Look,
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
Angel Deaton: That's right.
heathmeredith: just like with my wife, we'll fight, I'll hang up on her, she'll hang up on me. There'll be some four letter words that get dropped and all this. I may not talk to her for four days when I'm away at work. Come back home, we sit down, and it's like, hey. I was mad. I was annoyed. I was on my 20th call. We hadn't ate. We hadn't slept.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: I'm I'm sorry. I don't even remember what all I said to you. If I said some hateful shit, I'm sorry. can, you know, let's
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: let's figure out whatever we need a solution to the problem, whatever that looks like. and so in the fire station, it's no different. It's literally no different.
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: You gotta, you gotta smell these people, you gotta hear the snoring. I mean, every everything like.
Angel Deaton: Okay.
heathmeredith: My my EO, I love him to death. The dude is literally a brother to me. Literally. I could call him right now and say, I need you to drive. And he lives on the other side of Houston, which is about four hours from me. I could call him right now. It's 620 here. That dude would be here by 1020 if I called him right now. Does he drive me insane at the fire station? Yeah, because I am tired
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: of watching and waking up and hearing mash on the thousandth time. I can literally when I wake up or go in there and I can hear the mash intro
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: song, it drives me insane. Or emergency. That's the only two things that the guy listens to. And he's the oldest dude in the station. Well, he gets he the remote. so you know, just in saying all that, like people are gonna piss you off in the station, no matter how much you love them. They're gonna piss you off just like your mom and dad piss you off, just like your spouse pisses you
Kevin Whitsell: Mm.
heathmeredith: off, just like your kids piss you off. So understand that and don't hide from it. Just Hit it head on and be able to talk about it. And you may not be able to talk about the issue right then. If they piss you off right then, walk off and cool off. Maybe it's the next
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: tour. You got to come back and be like, hey man,
Kevin Whitsell: Yep. Yep.
heathmeredith: last shift, you pissed me off. But that's just
Angel Deaton: Yes.
heathmeredith: what it takes.
Angel Deaton: Yeah, yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely.
Angel Deaton: So what would you say to a young firefighter that if you recognize that they were already feeling burned out, maybe not even from the calls, but just dealing with the leadership, what advice would you have for them?
heathmeredith: I actually get that a lot. I get that a whole lot. So kind of giving a little a little background of like where I work. We have the city of Houston, which is, you know, HFD. They got over a hundred stations, four different shifts. So you basically, you know, you have 400 homes that you can choose from throughout your career. but they also have, you know, tons of extra things. So like they have their own arson division, they have A massive rescue, you know, multiple rescue companies, but they're they're a massive rescue department. They have hazmat, they have down the at the academy, they have their own in-house academy and regional academy where they literally train people as far as from like Japan, sends firefighters to come train there. So basically there's lots of specialty auxiliary places that you can go. Where I've worked, the sad truth about where I worked is most of the county departments are roughly two to four to five station departments, and they don't have all those specialty stuff. So that conversation happens a lot because basically what we do is we fight a lot of fire, but we fight a lot of fire and we run a lot of med calls. And in working at places where you know, guys come and they want to do like me, I'm my dad was one of the founding members of our hometown regional deep east Texas, but it's actually Nakadochas Fire Department. My dad was one of the founding dive team members. So they do they have a full regional response
Angel Deaton: wow.
heathmeredith: for swift water and dive. My dad was one of their original divers. So I grew up in the water. I got my first grab, was in the water in a swift water incident. Like I like that water stuff. Where I've worked, the departments I've worked at, the Chiefs, even though we're in the Bayou City, right? Houston floods. If a squirrel peas, it floods. And I mean, you I don't know who planned it, but if
Angel Deaton: Yes. Yes.
heathmeredith: you if you build cities at sea level or below sea level, they're gonna flood like that. Hello. But you can't tell
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: these fire chiefs that stuff. So a lot of guys will come in, they get burned out because they're tired of just running fire alarms, med calls, and and
Angel Deaton: No, I'm good.
heathmeredith: regular fires. And over a 20-year career, that gets old. And then, you know, they get screwed over by promotions. Cause also every department I've worked at, completely different promotional processes. Everyone I've ever been at. Totally different game that you're playing by, totally different
Angel Deaton: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: command structure that you're playing by. And that stuff 100% takes a toll on you. And I've had those conversations where these guys come and basically what I redirect them into is it's like, for one, I'm gonna tell you the grass is never greener. From a guy that I did a I jumped a lot of fences getting sold a dream. I people beat me up on my platform. Well, how many departments have you worked for? Well, I've worked for about seven departments, part-time and full time. Because I was that guy. Like, you come and sell me a dream, the first 10 years of my career, I bit off into it. but then I get over there and I realize grass was not greener. It's the same toxic crap over here. And so I explain that
Kevin Whitsell: Exactly right.
heathmeredith: first and foremost. I I tell the young guys, like, hey man, yeah, that department may have shinier trucks, but that's because they're there there's that much more bullshit over there where it looks like it's shinier.
Angel Deaton: That's right.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: And so for one, being honest with them about it. For two really try to get to the bottom and the root of like what they want out of their career. Because if a guy like like take that for instance, if they're like me and they want to do swift water, but they're stuck in a department that's gonna always refuse to do swift water, they're always gonna be unhappy because they're gonna have that piece missing. Now I'm old enough in my career, I'm kind of swallowing my pride on that and just realizing like it ain't worth me going and starting over again when I'm over
Angel Deaton: Mm-mm.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm.
heathmeredith: halfway through my career. So you gotta kind of be honest and and truthful in that that perspective. But if it's a super young guy that's getting burnt out because of administrative stuff and all that, being honest and explaining what they're gonna look at no matter where they go. and then really find out what they want out of their career. Because if if they're wanting to if they wanna do a 20 year career, they wanna do a 30 year career, you're gonna have to tell them, like, hey man, it's gonna be like this. no matter where you go, you're gonna have these these pain in the butt administrations. There's always gonna be the new policy that comes out every other day, no matter where you go. That's that is the reality of of what you're looking at. The other thing is is finding out tactically what they want. If they want to ride an engine forever, or they wanna go to a ladder truck, or they wanna become a paramedic, you gotta find out what they kind of want out of their career, or they're always gonna be unhappy. and then the other thing is Really, really, really explaining to these guys that chiefs are at the end of their career. Regardless of how long and how greedy they want to be, they're at the end of their career in comparison to the young guy. So say you take that one-year guy, whatever, and they're starting to get tired of the old crappy chief. If this guy plans on staying in 30 years, regardless that chief will will retire or not, they're gonna be dead by the time this dude gets their 30 years.
Angel Deaton: Right, right.
Kevin Whitsell: You're exactly right, yeah.
heathmeredith: It explaining that basically, and I actually took I guess it was Rich Gassaway's class years and years ago, the the I forget what it was called, but it was the leadership class. And literally that was a portion there, that's probably one of the main things I took away from that class was it's like, hey, you will outlive the chief. If if you
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: stay here long enough, you will out no matter how many contract extensions they get and and how many more objectives that they have on their whiteboard for their contract. You can outlive them just simply because they're older than you. So I kind of try to tell people that too. and just understanding that, you know, whether that chief's got three years left or or or 30 years left, if you've got 40 years left, then you can have 10 years without this sucker. So just that's that's kind of what I do. And The brutal honest part, the brutal, brutal honest part is some guys, this job is not 30, that it's not for them for 30 years. if they're a couple years in and they're already experiencing that many issues and they're having that much burnout, that's kind of where it goes into that whole like having an off-ramp, understanding like, hey, there is more to this. If you're already feeling
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm. Yep.
heathmeredith: that way and you've only been in five, 10 years or less, this job may not be for you. Just because it's a lot. Of crap that you have to eat. And so another 20 years of this, what's that gonna do to your head? It's obviously not gonna be good. So enjoy this job. I mean, and I'll use him as an example. I love him, but he's on my my crew that I'm at now because I'm I'm having to ride up as a driver. This guy's been in 10 years, he's realizing that he's always had the dream of wanting to be a commercial pilot. So, you know, I'm putting his business out, but it's all good. He's actually in school right now. He went and got the loan and he's in full-fledged Absolute shoulder over his head deep in in pilot school. And so he's using the fire department as a sustained income, but now he's chasing
Kevin Whitsell: Sure.
heathmeredith: his dreams of getting to go be a commercial pilot, which is something he's want do since he was a little kid. And so he has an off-ramp going into something
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: that is gonna be a whole other avenue. So having that conversation, like, hey man, this maybe not be for you. Is there something else that you love that you've always wanted to do? Maybe it's
Angel Deaton: Yeah.
heathmeredith: time. Maybe it's time and use the fire department. Some people will hate me for that, but we have a really good schedule at the fire
Kevin Whitsell: Mm mm.
heathmeredith: department. And if you can use this good schedule to your advantage to build something else, do it.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Heath, I you know, we kind of reached the end and I I really hate this part because it's always kind of the end of a good conversation. and I and but if anybody has listened to the last 50 plus episodes, almost 60 now, you guys know how much I love a guest like you've been. honest, no BS, come at you straight, like not not gonna sugarcoat it. For anybody, and I love that about you. Thank you for coming on and just sharing a piece of yourself and talking about some things that may not have been comfortable to talk about. but I really do appreciate the open honesty and the fact that you're out there kind of doing very similar work that we are, and that you're out there saying that, hey, this is not something that should be looked down upon. And a lot of this is administrative moral injury and that. You know, hey, you get mad about that. And I love that you're so just in the episodes that I've been researching and and really falling in love with what you're doing, like you'll say some stuff that nobody else is gonna be willing to say. And I
heathmeredith: Yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: love that. I really do love that. Angel turned me on to you because she you know, she was so excited to get you to answer her correspondence and she's like, Guess who I got? And I'm like, she's like, He's Meredith, and I'm like, Who
Angel Deaton: Who was that?
Kevin Whitsell: who's that? And she's like, go look him up, go look him up. And I so I went and looked you up, and man, you you really are, you're doing some good stuff, so I really like it. so I always give everybody a chance to kind of give the shameless plug, give your podcast, give where you're streaming at, all those things and any projects you may have going on that you want to tell us about.
heathmeredith: Yeah, for sure, man. And and in all fairness, like I I'm no profit by any means, but I think that the platforms out there that are moving away from the cookie cutter, you know, prem and proper way of doing things, those are the platforms that are growing. and so I think
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, absolutely.
heathmeredith: that that us collectively, you know, y'all, me, I can name, you know, a handful of other guys that that are have become my close friends at this point of guys that are just doing that real. Hardcore, like, hey, this is what we're going through. This is that's the ones that are growing. And it's because it resonates with real people. I think as a society, we're kind of done with the PC, cookie cutter, everything is just peaches and cream like way of life. I think collectively
Kevin Whitsell: a hundred percent. Yeah, that's not truth, yeah.
heathmeredith: everybody's done with that. So you know, and and my whole deal like from the very beginning is in doing the podcast and all that, like I I have I know who I am, right? As a person. I know who I am. I have nothing, nothing to hide. Like the only person I gotta impress on this planet, and the only person I'm actually accountable to is that Cajun wife of mine. things come and go.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: Life comes and goes. but I've always had the attitude of like when I sit at my kitchen table, which is this same table I'm sitting at, when I sit at this table, the same guy that I'm on that podcast is the same guy that sits here with my five daughters and my wife. And I have stuck by that. And that's what
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: I believe in. I think that's how you actually make a difference. And and obviously people are resonating with that because that's why our platform is growing so crazy. But you know, really when it comes to what we, you know, what we have going on, I I'm just gonna keep building what I'm building. I joked in the beginning, like I've pissed off some of the biggest names from the very beginning, man.
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
heathmeredith: Like I've I've lost friends behind what I've done, I've lost jobs behind what I've done. And so people, that's that's the thing people gotta understand too. Like, I've literally had jobs where I I was a shoe-in for it for chief jobs, everything like that. And literally
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: the podcast cost me a job. They told me that in the interview. So understand that when you stand up for real stuff or you're doing real things in life, there's gonna be consequences, you know. And I love everybody makes the comments about, yeah, you got freedom of speech, but you don't have freedom of consequences. Yeah, like I understand that. And I think everybody understands that. But collectively, as a world. If we all got to a mindset of like telling our real stories, telling what we actually believed in, they can't
Kevin Whitsell: yeah.
heathmeredith: there's 350 million Americans, right? They can't put us all in jail. They can't take all of our jobs because who the hell is going to be the fireman then? So
Kevin Whitsell: That's right.
Angel Deaton: All right.
heathmeredith: that's firefighters as a whole, I believe this, and really truly first responders, because I I kind of group us all together personally. That's just in my head how it works. Like I call everybody guys, that includes the chicks too. We're just all guys.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, same. Yeah.
Angel Deaton: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: We really can run the world because the society, the our communities trust us with everything. They're the we're the only people in the world that I steal this from Mo Davis, which is the chief at Houston, but we're the only people in the world that a mother with a dying baby will hand their kid over without knowing you from Adam. We have that level of power. So why the hell do we not act like that the rest of the week? Like understand that when we there's a reason why when fire a firefighter union puts a stamp on a politician, that politician gets elected. It's because of the power that we
Kevin Whitsell: You're right.
heathmeredith: have, because we're supposed to be this level of of
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: service, if you will, whatever word you want to put on it. So if we'll act like that all the time and stop stop hiding behind it, stop being scared of it. And that's kind of the way the direction I took with the platform with the Third Alarm Cowboys and everything. So Understand, like I I under I know that there's consequences, but I also feel that collectively, if we all just told truthfully who we are and the things we believe in, then it would fix a a lot of the issues society looks at.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah.
heathmeredith: and man, I I'm just gonna keep building on on that notion and and talking about the things that come to my mind. And really and truly, my podcast is just it's it's a wild shit show because I I talk about
Angel Deaton: you
heathmeredith: what's on my mind. I don't have a script. I don't, you know, I don't read from a teleport. prompter. I don't, I had I don't even have notes. I go into a show and I'm like, what I want to talk about today. Well I'm gonna talk about what pissed me off yesterday. So that's kind of the
Angel Deaton: That's great. Yes.
heathmeredith: the entire the and
Kevin Whitsell: man.
heathmeredith: it's not formal or anything, but it's just literally me being me and and it's either you guys gotta listen to it or my my poor wife has to listen to it. And sometimes it's both.
Kevin Whitsell: It's usually both in my case.
heathmeredith: yeah, same here. You know, and so that's what we've done, man. And and really what's happened with that is people have latched on. People have latched on, and it's opened us up into this whole other deal where I'm traveling and doing my lecture. We went from I think we did seven, seven trainings last year. That's lecture and hands-on combined, but seven trainings last year. We're doing 18 this year. I just booked another three-day training conference today, this morning for in December. So I guess that'll put us at 19. So the message is resonating. So you know, anybody that thinks that like, you know, hey, I I don't want to be that guy, I don't have that voice, I don't know, like if you're being open and honest, people will latch on. And then in turn, it will turn into something like I had no you could have never convinced me two years ago that we'd be traveling all across the country and I got chiefs from California booking me to come teach an engine ops class. I would have told you you were a liar. But that's what's happened. And so we're just gonna keep building on that. And you know, guys out there. If you're interested in either our lecture, which is a very hit you in the mouth, like you want us to come out and fix your guys because your guys are down the dumps, they're not doing training, they're not taking care of business, things like that. Or the big portion of my job in my lecture is bridging generational gaps. That's one of the biggest sections. I probably spend an hour on working on that. And it's because I have the perspective of being more or less, I don't want to say a middle-aged guy, but a middle generation firefighter. I and I have kids that are 18, or I have a daughter that's 18, another one that's 16. So I literally, my daughter could go to Fire Academy right now. And so I can relate to that group because I live with that group. And then I know the old heads because I've worked with them and they're all my dad's generation. So I'm kind of in a very special spot where I can truly bridge the gap, and I'm not like some of these other people out here that are hypothetically talking about it. I can talk about real stuff. and
Angel Deaton: Right.
heathmeredith: so You know, if that's something the guys are interested in us coming out, whatever, and then we have our hands-on class, which we're probably one of the only engine ops hands-on classes across the country that literally teach from we call it from the pump to the nozzle, but we literally teach everything. And it's
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: we are the only cadre that's out there of instructors that is is breaking down doing the pump mechanics and doing it in a realistic, real-life pump ops. I'm not teaching you coefficients and and all the textbook stuff. I we teach guys. How you really pump on a fire ground, and then everything else included,
Kevin Whitsell: Nice.
heathmeredith: which is you know, forced entry, throwing ladders, doing search and rescue off the line when it's just two people on a line. Like
Kevin Whitsell: What's the five?
heathmeredith: all the stuff that we get to do, and I'm very, very blessed of everywhere I've worked. It's I have a you call it a blessing or a curse, depends on who you are, but I've had a very special career in the sense that I worked in areas that burned the world down and we did it with like no help. And so. Like my the guys that I'm with now, last year we made 63 working structure fires as a crew. But then the other dynamic is we're in the city limits of Houston, but we're an incorporated county department. So basically what that means in turn is we don't have infrastructure. So we do all those fires with no hydrants. we do them all with with tanker tenders. So I'm in a in a tanker
Angel Deaton: Wow.
heathmeredith: house and so we do all the rural water supply. Like what all you know, your your very rural volunteer departments do. We do all that mess, but we're doing it with mid rises it in inside the city limits of Houston. So we're very special in what we do, but it makes us
Kevin Whitsell: Mm.
heathmeredith: good at our job. so that's my little
Angel Deaton: That's right.
heathmeredith: shameless plug on the training. And you know, the guys I bring with me are guys that I actually fight fire with. I'm very, very, very picky, as people know from the podcast, I'm picky. I don't put my name on people. I don't fight fire with you, I ain't bringing you in. And so that's kind of limited me at times, but at other times, like I know my guys are not full of crap. We do this crap. Literally
Kevin Whitsell: Yep. Yep.
heathmeredith: funny story, but everybody loves a story. We taught a regional training in Southeast Texas two weeks ago. It was our our Friday, Saturday, Sunday class. We got off work, work, we work 4896. So get off work, go home, come in, teach for three days. The very next day we had to be back at work. In our 48, that one, we made five working structure fires on that 48. And we were doing the exact stuff that we taught with doing drafting and all that kind of stuff, having to set up dump tanks, all that. The only thing we did cheat, we didn't have to set up dump tank. my EO actually set up a hard suction drafting off of a off of a pond, a retention pond, which people don't know. But basically, when you build a city at sea level, you gotta have somewhere for the water to go. So they put retention
Kevin Whitsell: Mm.
heathmeredith: ponds all over the place. So the guys are literally drafting not even 24 hours on a on a working structure fire right after we get done teaching. So We're very special and very blessed in the sense that we get to do that kind of stuff, but that's what's made our platform take off is it's no nonsense. We actually do this. The stuff I tell people in the lecture, the conversation like what I'm telling you guys, like how I talk to people
Kevin Whitsell: Mm.
heathmeredith: in the station, it's what we do. And and so it's been very, very special then and you know, I I love being able to come on platforms like this. Y'all are actually only my fourth interview to ever actually do. So,
Angel Deaton: wow!
heathmeredith: Yeah. So I haven't done a whole lot of
Kevin Whitsell: Wow. You couldn't
heathmeredith: of other deals. And y'all's has actually been different than any other one I've ever done. Most of them have all been like, tell us about the fist fight
Kevin Whitsell: Daddy.
heathmeredith: shirt. But yeah, I've only I've only done four interviews now. And so it's very, very special to me to get to be a guest on other people's platforms and that people even give a damn what I've got to say. So
Angel Deaton: You
heathmeredith: I really do appreciate y'all. And yeah, anybody wants to get us third alarm cowboys on on everything and And go to thirdalarmcowboys.com. I'll leave y'all with this. The the a lot of the people have really, really liked the articles that I've been dropping on social media, the long
Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm.
heathmeredith: format articles. Those have gotten very popular because that's just me pouring my heart out on whatever subject it is that I'm doing. and I actually you can find all the full articles in the in the like the the real articles themselves on thirdalarmcowboys.com. I've started a whole page on there called the Tac Journal. And it's basically just me journaling my thoughts in an article format of like what's going through my mind on whatever subject at the time. and I'm dropping one of those a week on my website. So, you know, the last one was the what is actual crew integrity? I did
Angel Deaton: in.
heathmeredith: one before that was it's not my job. I mean, things that are hitting every single person that you're dealing with, it's your department, whatever your patch looks like, it's things that I'm gonna talk about. And so That's just kind of my shameless plug for guys that wanna go and go and follow us. Go to the website, follow us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, all that good stuff, man. and I'm just gonna keep being me.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, we love that. And guys, you know, just like Heath, we like to deliver episodes that do punch in the mouth. And I do think that this is one of those that Heath brought the thunder, if you will. He he punched us in the mouth. He told us what it was about. and Heath, I'm really appreciative that you came on and you said yes to a mental health podcast that many people shy away from. so I am very appreciative for you. guys, you know where you can find us, but really I could go through and tell you all those things. But really, the hub of all our information is a silentwarwithin.com. That's where you can find everything. I write on there as well. started writing for Dark Horse Press. Make sure you check them out. Jason is is our co-host Jason is now our founding sponsor with with five arrows forged. he is a registered coach and If you want somebody who's really been through the job and really walked through the literal fire, he's the guy. So reach out to him. also PTSD strong dot org is gonna be one of our partners very soon. Go check them out as well. so we are super excited that we are gaining more traction. We are growing just like you, Heath. again, thank you. and now, now, There is merch out there for us as well. You can go find t shirts, hats, all these things. and you may say, Okay, Kev, where does that actually go? Well, that goes to get us out into the community and to do training and to go to conferences and to really be side by side with you guys and really talk to you one on one. And give you the opportunity to get peer support or to get counseling or to get coaching or whatever that is. It gets us out there so that you guys can meet and greet us and that we can give you goodies and that we can be there at all those conferences, giving the little bags out that everybody loves. Everybody loves a goodie
Angel Deaton: Thank
Kevin Whitsell: bag at conference. but really it's to grow this platform even more because we want to reach as many people as possible with this message. You don't have to fight alone, you don't have to struggle in silence. There are people, even though times like that feel very isolating, there are people who have been through very similar things and have felt very similar ways. You don't have to feel like you are by yourself because you are not. so as we grow, keep up with us. Make sure that you're reading all the things and seeing all the things. And the biggest part of what we do is obviously the podcast itself. Make sure you like, leave a review, all those good things that all the streaming platforms want you to do to tell them that we're good content. so Heath, again, thank you so much. And as we always close our show and Angels premiere episode, you did a great job.
Angel Deaton: Thanks.
Kevin Whitsell: as we close every show, be safe, take care of your mind, and we will talk soon. Bye, everybody.
