Safety Is Created Within with Courtney Grimes, LCSW

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Speaker 1: Coming up on You Need Therapy. Confidence and empowerment are very quiet. I think fear and insecurity are very loud. I started to realize that not being an expert isn't a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know. If you can die before you die, then you can really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought I was insane, Yeah, and I didn't know what to do because there was no internet. I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy, y'all. You are in for such a treat today. I have been waiting to share this episode with you for weeks and I have a friend and fellow therapist, Courtney Grimes on to talk to you guys, And really, I had this conversation for myself because it all started when she said something on a trip that we had gone on with a couple other therapists to tour some treatment centers. She said something and it it clocked in my brain and I couldn't stop thinking about it, and I said to myself, I'm going to have you on the podcast because We're going to have this conversation for everybody to hear, because I know what would be fruitful and I know it will be helpful. So I could talk about Courtney for hours and how wonderful she is and how accomplished she is, and how smart she is and how impactful she has been in the world. But what I'm gonna do is let her show you that through all of the amazing things that she says. During this episode, I was writing down note after note when we were speaking, like I could not I felt like I couldn't make eye contact with her because I kept being like, we have to write this down. I have to write this down because she says so many things that are so important and that made like fireworks go off in my head. She's just awesome. You can tell she was created to be doing the work she's doing. And I feel like I am rambling on like I'm like part of the Corney Grams fan Club, and maybe I am, and maybe I'm going to be the president. So if anybody after this episode wants to join the fan club, all the other spots are open. I'm sure Courtney would love that. But one thing I do want to mention before I introduce our conversation is a program she has created called the Collective. It offers a new level of care for treatment, which is called extended out Patient and it focuses on something that gets left out quite a bit when it comes to treatment and recovery and therapy and all that comes with that, And we talked about that in the episode, so you'll hear us. But it is such a cool program. It has come and been developed out of experience finding what's out working and finding what's missing and then filling in those holes. And if you guys hear us talk about it and you want to know more, you can find out more by going to my Collective care dot com. I will also put links to everything you need to know about Courtney and everything you need to know about the Collective in the show notes, So if you want to learn more about that, just click on the show notes. Click on those links, they will be there for you. I highly recommend being a part of anything Courtney does, anything she touches, honestly. So I want to say thank you Courtney for this conversation because it is probably one of my favorites that I've had um when it comes to the podcast. So, without any more of my fan girlinge I'm going to just let you guys hear all that Courtney had to say and all that I had to say about what Courtney had to say. Here's my conversation with Courtney Grimes. Courtney, Hi, Hi, I like to start. I started this last year with a couple of people because introductions can be awkward and uncomfortable for myself and other people. So I like to hear what people would like to be introduced to us if I could not use your job title. Interesting question like how would you want me to introduce you to a group whether you're speaking or like you're at a dinner party, And I'm like, this is Courtney. She is blank, but I cannot say she is a therapist. You would say this is Courtney and she gets paid to make people cry and watch them, But that's your job. So who are who? Well, how do you want people to know you outside of that? Outside of that, I would say big spirit, big thinker, sort of a global worldview kind of person, super open, don't meet strangers. You don't meet strangers. I love humans and I kind of hate us at the same time. But I love us. We're great. We're great. So I am a I like to think of myself as a collector of human narratives. Okay, I like that you said big thinker, because you are. And I like that you said did you say I don't mean a stranger. You don't. You're like friends with literally anybody that even makes a glance at you. We're all the same. Yeah, you're like, I know your story now looked at me friends. Yes, it's super annoying. I don't think it's annoying. Do you think it's annoying to other people who are annoying to you? Everybody? Are you touching my hair? It's so pretty? Isn't it hard as a therapist to not when you are I'm a love language physical touch, so I when I'm talking to somebody, I just want to hold them. Yes, it isn't that hard to their arm and like and like scratch their back. Everyone's like, this is this is a Yeah, you didn't ask for consent. You're like, I signed nothing. Oh my gosh. Okay. So also, I have a couple of fun questions before we get into the stuff. Because Courtney, as you guys know, is a therapist. So when I have therapists on, we tend to well sometimes I mean, we're gonna have fun because Courtney, but we tend to talk to about more serious stuff. So that we would start with some fun things. What are two of the most important things you learned about being a therapist after you already were one. I don't know if I can limit that to two. So first, I would say being a therapist after I started to actually sit in sessions with human lives and people in stories. They don't really teach you how to do that in school, Like it's not in a book. It's not in a book or a classroom, right, So I think that was sort of a punch in the face when I first when you when you first started out, You're like, oh my god, this is somebody's life. Don't screw this up. Don't screw this. They're coming to you because they don't know what's up and they need to figure some stuff out. So I think the mess of the human life, the messiness of it, the tangles we all kind of there isn't ever like a clear cut answer. There's not like a therapy answer. There's not like a um, oh, well here's your problem. Let me flip to page fifty my therapy manual and this is what I say. Yeah, Like that's not That was sort of a slap in the face and it's like, oh my god. And it's so crazy too, because you can have two or three people that you work with who have similar issues, but the answers are all going to be different for that person because they're having their own experience. And I know you and I have talked about that before too. It's the myriad of each human experience and human narrative is so unique. And that for me bleeds into kind of the second big thing that I've learned over the years, back way way up as a therapist. I need to take up the least amount of space in the room. It's not about me. It's not about what I think or what I feel. All that has to be checked at the door, right So, so I have then the luxury of total objectivity. I can look at this person and see them almost as a compassionate little puzzle. And so my client and I will work to deconstruct the puzzle and pull all these pieces apart and fear how to reconstruct that puzzle to make things kind of work a little bit better for them. But I mean, I do the same thing with my therapist. Right. So when I am in my fire and I'm in my life and I'm too close to all my relationships and my people and all my ish I can't see past the flame. I can't. I can't see on the outside of my own fire, right, So then she has the luxury of objectivity as someone watching me being on fire. I mean, like your homie, the bucket of water is down there by your foot, you might want to just reach down for that right there. You can't see it, it's right there. You know. Both of those things I think are so important because one thing, I thought, I didn't know I was going to be a therapist until I like basically was in grad school and I was like, how did I get here? Um? And I remember because I was my major. I was in child and Family studies, and I remember my advisor was American family therapist. But I thought I was going to go work for just a nonprofit or something. So I remember looking at my advisor in being like, Wow, what a special kind of alien human that like she has all these things programmed in her head that she knows what to say. And I think when you said, I don't like open a book and say, oh she said this, Now I go here and it says, now, say it's not so easy. That make our jobs so easy. It would make our jobs really easy, but then we would be really bad at our jobs. The human experience very easy, which is it's not so I think that was something when I learned that, like, oh, nobody can teach it a therapist exactly what to say. That's not a thing. That was scary and also at the same time kind of cool because I was deliberating. And then also the part learning that it's not about me for me that came when I realized that I am not here to save everybody like I thought I was really powerful, and then I was like, Okay, if I'm not here to have glory of saving somebody's a life and I'm just here to help them do that totally different games, which is why on the podcast. I know you guys listening probably hear this from me a lot, and I'm sure you get this from clients that are like, you saved my life, and I'm always like, I didn't, I wasn't there. Yeah, I'm like, you did that, you did that? And why I um so often and like I don't want to answer. I have a segment on here where people send in questions and I answer them, and I usually answer them back with questions because the goal is for you to know you more than you than I do, like, not for me to know you, and I don't want that power. I don't ever want to be looked at as a therapist. Maybe in my personal life I have these issues I don't know, but as a therapist, I don't want to ever be looked at as any kind of idol. Right, I'm just a person that knows some things and can see things that other people can't see all the time. So I love that. And then my next question, if you could invent a potion to cure one thing? I'm in my Harry Potter era right now. I can't stop over Christmas. I watch all the movies and now I'm listening to the books, and I'm like planning a trip to go to Harry Potter World, like, so that's where this question came in my head. But if you could invent a potion to cure one thing that clients you hear clients come to you often wanting to end quotes fix, what would you want to be able to cure loneliness? I knew you were going to say that, Okay, well, hands dare It's something that everybody feels now more than ever. But I think that it's something that everybody feels and nobody talks about. I think we are now in this age of this era, whatever you wanna call it, where it's become more important than ever for our shell to look perfect, be perfect, be on, try to monetize stuff on social media. We're all we're all so focused on the shell on the outer. No one's really talking about what's going on in the inside in a vulnerable way, if that makes sense. And over the years, what I have found and what I experience in my own life is we're all going through the exact same ship. Everybody is. It is the human experience, and nobody's talking about it. So client after client after hour after hour after day, after month after year, I'm listening to all of these fantastic, gorgeous, brilliant, wonderful humans come in and tell me that they don't have any friends. They feel like they're the only one going through what they're going through. Where do I meet people people don't like me? And I'm thinking, you're like, you're incredible. How is this possible? And then the more I kept hearing the story from all these different people and they, Oh my god, we all have the same story. I would invent a potion to cure loneliness. In my very humble opinion, it seems to be the root of everything else. I think there is so much happening with mental, emotional, spiritual, social health that can be stripped down. We really really peel those onions. It comes down to feeling alone. Amen, I agree with everything you'd have said, and what is popping into my brain. We have actually created this manufactured vulnerability that gives us the ability to pretend better that we are being vulnerable, but really we are less vulnerable than we ever have been. And I'll give you example of Oh this spoils me to my core. When people post a picture of them crying, oh God, on Instagram, and I will say I did recently. I think I posted this to Instagram. I posted a picture of me crying after I watched Did you watch from Scratch on Netflix? From start to finish? I know? Were you not audibly sobbing like a baby? Yeah? And then I photographed it and put it online. I did do that. I'm saying that because I did that. I was bawling. I had not cried like that because that that could happen. That story, It's like, and it happens all the time. Anyway, that's not important, but I do. I have to say this because I did. I took a picture and send it to my boyfriend and said, what are you coming home? And he was like, what is going on with you? And I posted that picture and said, like has anybody else seen Scratch? From Scratch? Blah blah blah. I'm like, so sad. But that was not me being vulnerable because I was crying. I wasn't trying to share anything really deep about my life. I just was like, this movie is so sad, like for this show. So yeah, I did that. But I see when people are like in the midst of something hard, or their kids are acting up or they didn't get something they wanted. And never in my life in the midst of true despair like that, have I been like, hold on, I gotta get my phone and share this on Instagram. I have my experience, and then I might share that with somebody. But to me, it's almost like exploiting an emotion versus connected well and hear what you're saying to right, So, like if I post those kinds of photos on Instagram, what is it that I'm after? Yeah, connection, I'm after somebody to reach out to me and say, hey, gir, are you okay? What's going on? Versus what if I texted somebody? Right? But that's that's that's scary. That's vulnerability that yes to say, hey, I can I talk to you? I need right. So, again, even with that kind of stuff, when we pull back that manufactured vulnerability, what why, what's the motive of doing that? More than likely it's some kind of connection or validation. So again, like I am finding that it really comes down to loneliness or feeling all alone and so so that shows up everywhere all over people's lives, right, and then that manifests into mental illnesses, depression, anxiety, things, like that, right, and then we use food and booze and social media and shopping and all the things to medicate the depression and anxiety, and the medicating or the depression and the anxiety really are just a byproduct of feeling all alone in this world. And I mean, I know this makes me sound a million years old, but this world, God, I feel like it's getting bigger and bigger and smaller and smaller all at the same time. You know what I'm saying. It's like I feel like the two or three degrees of separation is like really really applicable. But at the same time, I'm like, oh my god, there's so many like it's it's so much. I get really overwhelmed from all of the stuff, all of the TikTok all of this. It's so much and this pressure to like put out all this time thinking like, oh my we are We're not meant to have that much information, meant to consume the way we consume or our brains at a process at that a conversation with somebody about social media a couple of years ago, and she helped me kind of think differently about how I demonize social media because again, I like social media. But it's it's almost like these things have created problems that they are helpful in some way, but those there's also problems now, and we haven't caught up and tried to look at the issues and resolve those. We just start putting band aids on them. But that is our culture. That's that's how we roll, right, And I definitely do not demonize social media. I think there's so much some good that comes from it. But I think, like anything else, people will misuse it like anything else. I don't think it's any different from anything else in the whole world in that way, right, And I think that we try to use it like we try to use anything else to get our needs met. Yeah, that's really it. Yeah, well, I guess I wonder this even thinking about that. Like, if we didn't have social media and I needed some connection, I was feeling really lonely, and so I post this picture of me crying. If I didn't have social media to do that, what would I do? I would probably have another vice. I wouldn't probably call my friend maybe. I mean, I grew up without the Internet, without social media, without all of that stuff. That stuff really really hit when I was kind of in my late twenties, So I mean, we didn't have that as an option. And I would call my mom, I would call my friend, I would talk to my there would be a human being sitting with me. I guess I think that, yeah, because I'm coming back to like, I do have the belief that, for the most part, we're going to choose the easier option. Of course, so we have an easier option, so I'm gonna choose that. But I didn't have an easier option than I would choose the only option. Yes, you got it all right, So I can't wait for you to come out with that potion me too. We're gonna be a chillionaire. We're going to retire cat for sure. So I asked Courtney to come here for a couple of reasons, one being we went on a I don't even know what to call this trip, what is it like scursion excursion to California with a couple other people that work in therapy world, and we had a lot of conversations about a lot of things, but we talked a lot about mental health in general, and something that you said a couple of times that it's as though I was searching for that sentence. But I didn't know. I was searching for it, and that's why I feel like I can't let it go. But I'm like, oh god, what did I say? Well, it's it's when when you said, in the real world, nobody cares about your recovery. And we were touring some treatment centers, and both of us have an experience of working out patient with clients individually and in treatment centers. And I started in a treatment center that's all I knew, and so I would set people up for their aftercare plans. But I really probably didn't know what I was doing because I had never been in that world. And so anyway, we're out there talking to either the treatment centers, the people there, or just each other about Okay, well, what do we see as a common issue, Like there's so much good treatment in the world, There are so many good professionals are so there's so many avenues for people to get help. But why is it that over and over and over and over again. I would see this as somebody who worked in treatment before. I wasn't on the side. And for those who are listening, you're like, what are you talking about? When I say treatment? I mean like residential treatment where you go somewhere, you live there for at least thirty days, and you've limited contact with outside world. All of your vices are taken away. There's a lot of structure like that is where I when you think of rehab, that's kind of what I'm talking about. That's where I worked, and now I'm in this outpatient world where I see a client maybe once, maybe twice a week, for an hour at a time. And so what I saw and what I learned early on is I don't know what the actual status. So if I'm wrong, I'm not. This is an example of a statistic. But back then, I was reminded very often that really one out of ten of your clients is gonna make it. And I mean it doesn't mean they're going to die as soon as they leave treatment, but one out of ten of your clients is going to actually find long term recovery from whatever it is. One out of ten of your clients is going to actually find long term recovery from whatever it is. That's so crazy to me, because these clients that I'm working with, more than ten percent of them leave treatment being so excited to go out and have this new experience. They're so excited about finally liking themselves. And I can't wait to actually go back to school and get a new job where I can't wait to be a healthy really so excited. And if I went back and looked at all the clients from treatment that I had, even the ones that I was like that one's gonna make it that they're gonna make it relapse. So I want you to tell me where this sentence in the world. No one cares about your recovery. Where does that come from? Because I know it doesn't come from a place of like I hate people, No, not at all. It actually comes from a place of experience. So about twenty years ago, I started a pretty brutal eating disorder recovery. I was pretty sick for for a while and started my recovery process. And what I noticed when I, god, I don't want to say like got through with the process, but you start to kind of come out of it and things are you learn all of these tools, you learn all of these ways to keep yourself healthy to stay in recovery from this particular addiction. And I would feel really really excited about this new life I was going to have, right but then I would like go home and my roommates on keto, or I called my mom and she's on a diet, or um, you turn on the TV, try on the TV and there's ads for like fat free back, you know, all this stuff, And that really pissed me off, and I think, this, how am I supposed to stay recovered from an eating disorder when all of the stuff is around me? And then it would like blow up my relationships because we get mad at my roommate, where I get angry with my mom and pick fights with mom. You shouldn't be doing that, and oh my gosh, these address right, And so it caused so much turmoil and anger and like unrest in myself until I realized, wait, court yo yo yo, hold up, nobody gives a ship, Nobody cares that you're recovering from an eating disorder. You're the only one who really really is responsible for taking care of this. I can't change American culture, and lord knows, I'm not going to be able to change my mom's diet patterns. That's been, that's been a place she doesn't want to long time. And in realizing that for myself all those years ago, it was this weird. It's kind of sound really weird, but it was like this relief. Most it relieved the anger that I was penting. That I had pent up. It's sort of like helped all of this hostility and mothering that I was doing evaporate. And I thought, the rest of the world, it's not everybody else's job to cater to me and what I need. It's my job to recognize what I need and get my needs met. And it's nobody else's fault and I don't have to be They're not doing anything wrong, they're just living their life. So it was really healing in that way. So then fast forward to me entering this field and becoming a mental health care professional, and I saw that with everyone that I was working with, these beautiful, lovely, amazing people coming home from rehab facilities, whether it was for drinking, for drug trauma, eating, whatever, it is, right, And what I was noticing is it we're all having this kind of same recovery experience where you go off to these be you, I mean you, and I toured them their breathtaking I'm like, when where's my sweet oh my god, place is incredible. There's about Chris gorgeous, not that what this is so and they're everywhere and they're just the kindest, most amazing people run these places, and there is such a need for that right there. Sometimes there is a need when people get in too deep with stuff like I did, right, You just get in too deep and you have to sort of go to a bubble, like a little safe, warm, bunny filled confetti falling treatment bubble where everything's like awesome, right, and you're like surrounded by everybody who speaks the language, and everybody like everything that leaves your mouth, everybody else in the room is like, oh my god, same here, Like that's amazing and it's so empowering and it's so validating. The problem with that is is isn't real life? Right? So what I was finding is that all of these people who are these beautiful, gorgeous, amazing people are coming back from these places and they've done beautiful work, like you said, for thirty days, sixty days, ninety days, sometimes longer, and they come home and they're on fire for life, and they're on fire for the recovery, and they're the healthiest maybe they've ever been, and they're so excited about all this new stuff that's gonna happen, but they go right back to the same environment that made them sick. And the expectation is that the environment's gonna shift and cater to me and what I need to maintain this bunny confetti filled bubble that's not real. It's treatment, and treatment is beautiful and it's needed. There also has to be some type of ownership coming home where it's like, Okay, I have to now internalize that little bubble that has to live inside of me, and I can't force anybody else to be in that bubble with me. That's not how the world works, right. So, like, I remember having a conversation with somebody once they came home. They've been gone for sixty days for alcohol, used to sort for substances with alcohol. She comes home and came to session. She'd been maybe a month month and a half and was freaking out because her boyfriend wanted to go to the Titans game with her, to go see a football game, and she's like, I can't do There's like beer everywhere people are drinking. I can't be there. I can't be there. And I say, well, money, why why why can't you be there? I can't be around I can't be I can't go to bars, I can't I can't go to sporting but I can't go. And I said, well, sweetheart, if if you think that you can live the rest of your life not ever being around alcohol at all, ever, you're gonna like really not be able to leave your living room. You've got to learn how to internalize that bubble and internalize all of that stuff to where you can maintain that and be levels set and expose yourself to all of these triggers and be able to come out of that just fine. And don't ask or expect or want the whole world to not drink bud light. If you're in the room, they're gonna do it. And that's okay, that's okay they can't. But you are still safe. And so when I say things like, oh, that's important, I think you're just saying like, they're still gonna drink it and you are still safe. Yeah, and and and it does not threaten your safety. It's yes, and it's not either or. Everybody else is still very much free to live their life and make their choices just like you are. And them making their choices for their life truly truly doesn't have to clothesline or completely derail your own prom It's okay, it's okay. And I think that that is where you see a lot of people kind of relapse. They don't have either the resources or the support or even like, in this weird way, the permission. Yeah. Well, because what I had to do kind of heard and a lot of that is this belief is created that safety is a percent dependent on our environment versus dangerous stuff. And yes, versus safety is something that I create within myself. And when I heard that from somebody, that was really game changing because I kind of had that experience of like, oh, safety isn't when I've had ten experiences where I've hung out with my family and nobody's mentioned that I look skinny or that oh look at this I don't know example of some kind of diet that I'm doing, Like, that's not safety. Of that note, safety is that, like I know certain things to be true within myself, then I believe that I'm capable of certain things that I know what I need versus these people are behaving the way I want them to behave that's right, And you see it pop up a lot in relationship right, and this will probably be something that I will struggle with the rest of my life. Is just sort of that codependent little kind of twice kind of kind of bangs around in the back of your brain, like I'm only okay if you're okay with me, if you're happy with me and you like me, then I feel safe. Well, that's given you a lot of power, But like I need to be able to feel safe even if you are upset with me, even if you don't like me, even if I try to play with your hair and you yell assault and fire and run out of room. You're still until the lawsuit hits. But it's but it shows up everywhere, right, Like we try to put our safety in other things or other people or ideas or environments, and it really does. I think that's where we get tripped up. Okay, I like that you said that with relationships because this is a little off topic, but it is on topic, you know, the experience of I'm sure you have clients like this where they're dating and the whole focus pre date is is this person going to like me? Versus do like this person? And so you go into this this date without a strong sense of I would say safety using that language or like a sense of self or any of that, but what will use safety? You go into that date without it, and then let's say they they don't text you. Then it is in session next week talking to their therapist. Horrible, what's wrong with me? Terrible? What did I do wrong? And it is like speaking a unknown language to somebody when you say, what if you didn't do anything wrong? What if? Sometimes people just don't like you because you're not compatible or because it just is what it is. There doesn't have to be a underlying reason. And that's okay, because not everybody is going to like you, and that is just reality. That's right, that's it's impossible. If everybody were to like me, then I would have to be the most inauthentic person in the world. Well you wouldn't even be one person, Yes, exactly. It would be really sorry. It reminds me of um. I work with a lot of higher profile actors, celebrities, things like that, and a lot of these folks when they first start out and they're kind of auditioning for parts, they don't get it and it's like, well, I'm I'm a horrible I was horrible in my audition made it't like me. I was too fat, was too thin, I was too loud, I was too quiet, all these things. And I'm like, maybe that director already had a very specific idea of that character and what he wanted that character to look like, sound like, the height, haircut, all of it, and he just is waiting for that person to walk in the room. He's waiting for that person to walk in the room. It just wasn't you that that conception was there before you even found out there was an audition, before you're in there. Also, somebody said something to me a while back about you know, in the in dating context, right, like to find your person, you're gonna have to say no to the other people. Otherwise you have to say no. Of course, it's not a way that's how you find your your person. I love thinking about that, Like I can sit there and think about that for a while, so many hours, because yes, for if I'm looking for one person, now, I do believe that I could probably be okay with altiple people. But if I'm looking for one person to settle down with, that means I am saying no to a lot of the other person in the world. A lot of people a lot of suff and it doesn't mean there's anything wrong. They're wonderful. It's just not what you're particularly looking for for, yes, and that's okay. Yes, so, And I think that when you have the experience, when you finally are like I get it, it's like, how did I not get that? Right? I know, I know, but I do like that example of the with the acting of oh my gosh, I must be bad, and it's like, no, you're wonderful. You could be perfect for this part and the worst option for that part, and it's okay, it's okay, okay. So we got a little bit off topic. But what we like about this so we kind of touched on the idea that like, okay, there's a hole in this treatment world. We set people up, we give them all these things, they do all this, and they get out of treatment ready to go, and then it's almost like people drown in your eyes seeing this happen over and over and even having your own experience, going back to the idea of potions, where can we as a mental health field and humans they can be two different answers. Where can we fill in that gap of treatment sets us up well? But also sets us up to fail in the real world. Where can we fill in those holes? How can we fill in those I mean, I love that, I think especially if anybody's listening who is in an outpatient role. I alright, I'm just gonna get on my little soapbox for just a second. We love that, and it's a little rickety, but you know it still holds me and say that we are a capitalist economy, right, America is all about the individual. It's the American dream, right like you can rise up out of anything and create your own path and make your own way. I love that. It's a it's beautiful, it's awesome. You see people do it all the time. It's incredible. However, Comma, I think that that individualistic sort of nature that we are as a country, as a culture, has really trickled into mental health. So here's what I mean by that. I can scoop you up, kat and I can do amazing work with you as an individual in the context of our conversations and our sessions and our work. Homie, it is all about you. Where we're falling short. I think as a field as a profession, where we're really letting people down. We're not teaching people how to function in a system and reminding them that it isn't all about you. The world is not all about you. It's not all about you. You are a part of something way way bigger. And so it's again, it's not either or, it's yes and yes in your bubble and your heart and your life. Of course, you need to put yourself first. Of course you've got to take care of your own needs, but not to the detriment of others. Right, So it's yes and yes. Maintain your recovery. Yes, do what you've got to do for you, and understand that there's other people with needs to there's other people with feelings, there's other people in the world. There's other people in your little systems, whether it's at school or your family or at work, and you were a part of that. That idea has been i'll speak personally versus professionally, really helpful because I was one of those people, which this is a natural thing I want people to hear, who was so resentful of the world when it came to just diet, culture, mentality, totally so resentful, and looking back on it, I wonder if there's a part of me that's like really did think like the world was out to get me. Well it feels that way. It does, Like my family is out to get me. Everybody hates me. Yeah, why do they want me to fail? What's wrong with me? And hearing you say that and applying some stuff in my own life I think has allowed me to have healthy boundaries but not rigid relationships, because the initial desire is cut those people off. That's right, cut those places off. I can never go to a gym again. I never can watch a TV show again. I can never be self deprecating anyway, Like, I can't like everything so serious. I can't exhale and just relax into my life. I can't have Yeah, So now I see when I think that I would have taken personally, Now I see as things that have nothing to do with me, for example, for I think this is something that people probably can relate to more So, I'm not saying that this mom, if you're listening, and I'm not attacking you right now, but like, let's say that my mom was somebody who every week was like, which she didn't do this, so I feel safe saying this, but like who every week was like. I found this new diet that I think will work for you, or every week, hey, I started this new cleans. It is not about my mom trying to fix something that's wrong with me. That can be something that is all about my mom who's working on their own stuff. And who am I to say as an bystander that they're doing their life wrong exactly now? If my mom's coming to me and asking for feedback and help and whatever, I might be like. I might be like, well, this behavior seems a little often like I wonder if this says But that's what I do for my job. That's why I can give that feedback to clients. But who am I to say when it comes to the world that what everybody is doing because it didn't work for me, it isn't allowed to be what works for them in that moment. Because what I know about addiction, and I don't want people to hear something I'm not saying. I'm not saying that addiction is good, but what I do know about it is it is a solution to a problem that works for a period of time, and then it stops working and we have a hard time accepting that it's right. So my eating disorder worked for me for a period of time, and it could have saved somebody's life at one point. And who am I to say as a bystander, not as a mental health professional, But who am I to say in that world to say like, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, because if somebody said that to me at a certain point in my life, it actually could have done more harm. Yeah, but who am I to say in that world to say like, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, because if somebody said that to me at a certain point in my life, it actually could have done more harm. Totally. And I love that you said it's a solution until it's not. I think that this kind of stuff creeps up on you, right, Like you don't wake up one day and have an eating disorder. You don't wake up one day addicted alcohol. It I'm I guess. I mean that could happen, I guess, But typically it's it's more actual, right, Like it's a so we're looking to medicate something on the inside, right, because the inside is not settled in safe right. And yes, they look like beautiful, convenient, quick solutions, but they're very maladaptive solutions. Just because they're maladaptive doesn't mean it's not working. It's working. It's not gonna work out well in the long run, but it's working right now. Right Like if I, you know, put down a bottle of wine, I'm going to fill all right for a little while until I wake up tomorrow, and I feel like ship but like it works until it's right. So I like the way that you phrase that. And when I when I work with clients who are in any kind of addiction recovery process, whether it's a chemical dependency or process addiction, like an eating disorder, I try to never demonize the addiction. I almost have gratitude for my eating disorder. It got me through some pretty rough stuff. It really, it might have saved me for a little while, right, But then that the addictive nature of all of the diet ing and the restrict all the stuff right grabs a hold of your brain and then you're not in charge of it anymore, and it's in charge of you. And then it's like, oh my god, and then you face plants. So it's it's it's a whole it's a whole system. And I think to you know. To bring it back to what you were saying before too, I will always need to maintain maintain my own recovery simultaneously with like like understanding simultaneously that it's not all about me. There are billions of other people in the world, and each little life is all about them too. So I, yes, I have to take care of myself, and yes, I've got to prioritize my recovery process. Of course I do. And I have to honor everybody else's process and everybody else's experience, because there is no one right experience to have, which goes back to what you said in the very beginning, there's not a manual, So God, that'd be so great, right, Yeah, But that's why when we see things that are similar in other people, it's like, let me tell you that how that was a problem for me, and how I stopped and why this and I did at this point and okay, but they very well get to the point that you got but it but maybe not and that's not for us, and that's okay, And that's okay. I can still have my safety without solving everybody else's issues. Yes, And I think a succinct way to kind of think about that is, someone else's right to self determination doesn't threaten mine. Oh, that's good. We all say that again. We all have the right to self determination, right, so your right to self determination doesn't threaten my right to myself. It's it's both we can we that it can all exist altogether. That's so good. That is everybody write that down and when you're hyper focusing on everybody else, you go back. They've got the right to make their decisions. Just now, I will say this, We don't have the right to hurt other people. We don't have the right to How do I say it? Like, like I have I have the right to feel angry, but I don't have the right to punch you in the Facebook caause I'm angry. Yes, So, so I think there's an ownership and there's an accountability that's kind of being lost with a lot of mental health stuff this these days. Right, So it's like I have to own my self determination without threatening without imposing a threat on someone else as well. Okay, so this is coming up in my head right now and I want to say this and tease us out. So we started talking about this, like loneliness epidemic in the world right outside of the conversation we're having now, and then we're having this conversation about how you know, people who will go to treatment get set up to fail and they they they come back into the world, and we start to pick apart the world and the issue with that because as I was thinking about that, I was like, wait, okay, if we are then creating more individualism within ourselves outside of treatment, then am I setting myself up to be more lonely? But the answer is no, because going back to what I said when I said, I been able to have better relationships because I can have boundaries, but it doesn't need to be so rigid. That's the whole, and I hope this is making sense to everybody, but that's the whole. Where I come out of treatment and it's either black or white, it's either yes or no, and so I very often become very secluded and because to stay safe, I have to stay alone because other people threaten my recovery. But the solution is no, you can be in relationship with people and their stuff that doesn't match with your exact stuff doesn't have to threaten your safety or your decision. So how do I learn how to sit in that space where there are people that are going to disagree with me. There's people that are going to behave differently than me. There are people that are going to just have different sets of beliefs, which is a whole issue right now where we cannot tolerate it. Can We cannot tolerate anybody who doesn't agree with every single thing you say. What you just said, that is the epicenter of some centeredness. Yeah, that's the core of it. So what you'll find typically is folks who are very insecure in their recovery. I don't I call it baby deer legs. They're just kind of they're new, They're a little bit shaky, um, they're not quite ready to stand it there. Not a tall oak tree kind of kind of presence yet within themselves right kind of I was there, We're all there when we get out of it. At that point in your recovery, you do need to surround yourself with folks that mirror are recovered life back to you until you get a little stronger in your own recovery, and then you gotta kind of start to join join other right and not limit yourself. It's the same thing with folks who cannot tolerate other And this is a whole other podcast. Religious beliefs, political belief in any anybody who thinks or feels, or reacts that things differently than me. I can't tolerate it if I'm insecure with what I think and feel. I have baby deer legs with my opinions, I have baby deer legs with my reactions to that. I'm still getting to know this part of myself, etcetera, etceteratera. At that point, you cannot tolerate anything but a mirror. You have to have that mirror back to you. Right, So it's like I'm okay, right, this is okay that I think this and I feel this and I do right right Like you do it too, right, you gotta do it too. Wait, you don't do it. Get out. But like, the more the more like security become in your recovery process, the more you become secure in what you truly know to be true about you. I really believe it comes down to a core safety. The safer you feel on the inside on the inside, the more you can tolerate on the It's like, okay, because it's not a threat, it's cool. I got you girl, Like, it's it's cool you think differently, or you do life differently, or you know you do sugar free this or gluten front. Okay, cool. I don't need that mirror back to me anymore because I'm so safe on the inside with me and who I am and what I need that I can love you for exactly who and what you are, and that's wonderful. You know what I did. Oh, I'm cringing. And if my friends are listening to this, you're like probably sitting there about to sit there and say, I've been waiting for you to say that. But when you said that thing about sugar free, I remember very clearly when I'm like in my I probably was baby dear likes but I thought it, but I was, Yes, I am so empowered and I am woke and I'm this and that, and I like, wouldn't let my friends say things about themselves like I feel ugly or I even things like does this do these genes make my legs look this way? Or I wouldn't let them say anything that has anything to do with them having any insecurity. I would like, you can't say that, And I know where it came from. It comes from this place of like, I want my friends to talk well about themselves. I want us to be focusing on what's good. I don't want my friends to think that that what they look like is the most important thing about them. Like I understand where that came from, but that had to have been so freaking annoying because it is part of the human experience to be insecure about certain things. And I don't have to act like I am totally a hundred and fifteent obsessed with every single part of myself to be in recovery, like I can actually not like what something looks like my body. I'm like, you are female an American, right, it's in our d n a to not like the like stuff about the way we look. But you don't have to go nose diving into an eating disorder about it exactly. It's like, what am I going to give it? But not not allowing people to have their experience is so not necessary Because my friend thinking something it really was about me. I think it goes back to like when people say that around me, around me, I feel like I then start thinking about my stuff and what I'm insecure about. And I needed to learn that, like, Hey, I can hold my insecurities and also hold the things I'm confident about, Like, let's say something that my friend is insecure about on their body I don't really care about on mine. I can hold those things to be true even though it's not their truth. And I am finally to a point where I can do that. And I am telling you I don't think I could have done recovery that way. It was so freaking exhausting all the time to be hyper focused on what every else is saying, what every else is doing? What is again, what's on the TV? Am I doing everything right? Am I doing? Like? Oh, I shouldn't have that thought, I shouldn't manual? Yes, And now I'm like, oh, I get to be a human being who sometimes changes her outfit four times a day because I can't find something that I like. And I'm allowed to have a day where I don't want to be in a picture, and I'm allowed to have a moment where I'm having thoughts that I don't want to have have but that does not threaten the fact that I can make good decisions for myself and also still love myself. And so I'm going off on a tangent. But yeah, I think that is very just so important for people to allow. It's it's almost like I'm talking about something very simple, allow greatness to exist in other people's lives, My life recovery. I want to say something to that because I think it's so important. In in my very humble opinion, I think everything in the entire universe boils down to either love or fear. Now, some people call it good and evil. In my personal experience, it's love or fear. So, so let me break down what you just said in that context, right, Like, I have so much compassion for that stage of recovery and the fear associated with it. Right, So the baby deer legs, or the intolerance of things and people and viewpoints and you know, behaviors around you. If I feel the need to control everything, why do humans need a false sense of control like that? Right? Scared? We're scared to death? Okay, what am I scared of? Well, I'm afraid of death. I'm afraid of being left out. I'm afraid of not being loved. I'm afraid of not being good enough. I'm afraid of not belonging, I'm afraid of etcetera. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Right, so there's something on the inside that we are terrified of that is fear based, that then will manifest in these kind of controlling thoughts and controlling behaviors. We don't really have a whole lot of control in this world outside of ourselves. We just we just don't write so the idea that we want to control everything around us. I have so much compassion for that, because when you pull that layer back, what's underneath it is somebody who's scared to death, who doesn't yet have that really strong, stoic oak tree of safety inside of them quite yet, right, just yet, So all of this stuff boils down to fear. Now, on the flip side of that coin, if I sit back and let Cat make all of her decisions and run her life the way she sees fit for her, she's not infringing on me or my ability to make my decisions or run my life. And sometimes we agree on stuff, and sometimes we don't, and that's okay, But I never feel the need to control you. That boils down to love and safety. Right, I'm safe on the inside, So it's me and Cat instead of me or Cat and I'm free to just love you. I just love you and all of everything about you, And in my opinion, it allows for a deeper type of relationship. And I then allow you to teach me more about me by being your friend and being in relationship with you. It helps me grow. So in my opinion, everything you can really do that with just abou Anything boil it down to either love or fear, and fear is usually a lie. Yeah, And I am like sitting here thinking about putting that in context of all my relationships past and present and how we're just scared. Yeah, I have a lot of conversations to have with you off off of this podcast. They're not we don't need to have them on here. But yeah, that is so good. That's another thing that you guys need to write down. You need to write down the I can be safe like safeties within What was the thing about myself to term your right to self determination does not threaten mind? Okay? And then also things boiled down to fear and fear is usually just in our own minds. Yes, it's not even it's not even happening. It's real. You also said this when we were in California, said like anxiety is not real. It's not real. Yes, I know. I love that because so many people will fight me out there like, yes it is, I feel it. I medicated for it. I'm like, yeah, girl, I can bill insurance with it. But that doesn't make it like a like a real thing, Like where do you mean, my girl? I feel it every you you feel the effects of what we call anxiety. But it's like a psych buzz word. It's real popular, it's a D S M word. Now you know, you can get pills for it and all that, but when you again, when you pull that back, it's just this really unique individual combination of anger and fear. That's what anxiety. It's a combo, right, Yeah. I used to say anxiety as a fancy word for fear and dared. Yeah, and and like you said, to fear, a lot of it's stuff we make up in our head. It's right, what if? What if? What if? What if? And I say this all day to everybody. I'm like, guys, there's what if, and there's what is. If. Something starts with what if, that's in your imagination. That's why it starts with what if? Oh my god, that's how you know. Imagination fantasy from reality. There's what if and what is? And if it's what if any real, any real? You're making it up. It's the movie in your head. Come back out here with me. I miss you when you go away. Come out. I miss you so much. Come back. Oh my god. Okay, that's so good. Okay. So what we've done is we've identified kind of the hole in the treatment system and how it leaves us, you know, set up to fail even when we have really good intentions to succeed. And we've identified this solution which make sure that I'm getting this correct. A lot of it is the ability for me to maintain safety within myself and connection with people that aren't all on the same page as me at the same time. So, how have you seen this done in your professional life? Like, how have you seen and how would you encourage somebody to set themselves up to eventually get from that baby deer legs spot to the spot where I can stand? Love that question, great question. I don't know how people are going to feel about this answer, but I think it's just the truth. Okay. I like that. I think the most direct route to empowerment is personal accountability and responsibility. Now, When I talk to people about that, they hear it sometimes in a context of blame and fault, like you're to blame for this, or it's your fault for your life being that way. Kind of yeah, right, not in a bad way, in a good way. So the more I can zoom out and look at my life and really see the manifestation of all of my choices and decisions, yeah, I've made some pretty shitty ones. I think anybody who knows me knows that. But at the same time, it's in my control, which means that I then have all the power to change it, and I'm not sitting around waiting on somebody else or something else to happen. Like I don't have to wait. I get to step up and like make different choices to produce different outcome. Right. But before I can do that, really be empowered to make those choices, have to back up and take accountability for my choices. So it's like, well, I'm I'm in eating sort of recovery because my mom died it all the time, and my eating sort of totally her fault. Okay, yeah, maybe that's how it kicked off. But I'm an adult now, so now I have the power of choice. I'm not eight years old anymore. Right, Yeah, maybe that's how it all started, But why is it still sticking around? I need to make different choices for me, and I need to be empowered to make those choices. Yes, let me ask you a question. When we talk about accountability and responsibility defensiveness, pops, Oh my gosh, of course of why do you think that comes fear? Yeah, we're terrified, right, so you know if you look at me and you're like Corney, you need to take accountability and responsibility. I hear. Oh my god, I'm in trouble. Oh my god, I'm terrified. She hates me, she doesn't love me anymore. I'm not good enough. Wait, so what happens to guard me from that pain and that fear defensiveness. I'm gonna get angry, I'm gonna snap back, I'm gonna blame shift, I'm gonna start pointing fingers, I'm gonna defend my position. I'm gonna feel it's really really important for you to understand me. I'm good cat, and I'm need to justify that right now. Flip that coin over. If I'm safe on the inside and you saying to me court, you really need to take accountability and responsibility. I'd be like, oh god, maybe I do. Maybe there's some amends I need to make, maybe any okay, and I can recognize that as part of my humanity and stay safe. Nothing's threatened, there's I'm not afraid, if that makes sense. But before I can be peace filled enough to be empowered, I think there's got you. We got a level set with accountability and responsibility and understand that we truly are responsible just for us. And that's an awesome thing. Yeah, I love that. I love you talking about that as a positive thing because when when things are I want to use the word fault, but I don't feel like that's right everybody. Yeah I have like ikey, I don't even want to say that word. But it's like when things are up well, then I can then do something about it, and that's a great thing. So what is it that we need to be doing? Like going back to the original question, So I take accountability and responsibility and that leads to what Yeah, it leads to freedom. So I think confidence and empowerment are very quiet. I think fear and insecurity are very loud. So when I feel activated and loud, and I'm I'm having a big, big feel about something. I'm probably scared shitless of something on the inside. So what I do is I have learned to recognize that almost chemical adrenaline like reaction in myself and I'll make yo. You need to sit on your hands, dude, Like, okay, self, you need a time out. Let this chemical Let this adrenaline drain out of your body, out of your toes. And when this passes, zoom out and like, okay, what something something just got clicked on in there? What is that? What am I afraid of? Okay, I have to write this down because I don't want to forget this, and you guys can't see my face, but I just might jaw dropped because that was so good. Say again. Confidence and empowerment are very quiet. I think they're quiet. I think when someone's truly confident and truly empowered with who they are as an animal, as a spiritual being, having a human experience, I think it's a quiet, peace filled experience because you don't have anything to prove to anybody, especially yourself. I think the security are allowed. I think in security and fear are loud, they're deafening. They are in your face. They are self important. They can cripple yourself, and they can cripple other people there there space taking. They're just they're big, right, Well, of course, I mean, look at animals in the animal world when they're terrified. There's so many different animals that like puff up or raise up on their hind legs or they get real big enough. We're not any different. We're not any different, right. So what I have found is that if I'm having a reaction to something, a thought, I have something that's happened in the world, something that somebody else says, it's threatening that quiet empowerment that I have. Okay, that's okay, I just got to look at that. It's an arrow to redirect me to a piece of myself that I need to work on and look at, which never stops, like we never, we never get there or we never Like my god, I'm totally enlightened now, like it just it never stops. Right. There's always something new to learn, always something new to observe about yourself. But I think the goal is the trick is to observe it like a science experiment and not judge it. It's not bad, it's not wrong, it's just there. That's yeah, that's okay. I just take it's okay, it's cool, it's all right. Let's just take a look at it and be curious. Let's poke at it and see what flies out of there. Yeah, okay, we have more things for you to write down. This is probably the most notes you've ever taken in a podcast. Here the confidence and empowerment and very quiet that it gets so and then that whole idea of let's observe something and look at it like a science experiment. I always say to clients like, this is an experiment, Like what we're doing is we're experiment teen with things. But it's scary because experiment, the outcome of experiments are unknown, and we are wired to fear the unknown. I'll have a lot of it's really said, it's getting younger and younger now, but um, I mean down to like ten twelve year old moms will bring them in to work with me. I mean up until I think the oldest person I've ever worked with on this particular topic was in our sixties. I want to be confident, I wonderful confident or here my daughter is so insecure. I want I want to teach her to be confident. And my work with every single human is confidence isn't something I teach you. Confidence isn't something you learn. Confidence doesn't exist outside yourself. It's your natural state. Confident is how you came into this world. You learn to be afraid. You we learn social fears, right, Like if you do that on the playground, that makes you a bad girl. We learn what's we learn, what's we It's all learned. So what happens is each new thing we learned to be afraid stamps down, stamps down, shoves down, pushes down that natural confidence. So confidence is what buoy's up to the top. When you strip all the fear away, you don't work to get it, it's already there. You're working too hard, Yes, you're working too hard maintaining all these fears. And when the fear goes away, the confidence is like like comes right back up, and you're like, I'll pick a wedge at a restaurant. I don't care, I'm just kidding. Maybe I'm kidding, no, no, whatever, per cent. And if you guys are like, really apply this to your life, because how often do we hear building We have to build confidence? You have to build out. You have to build it, Like what are the we need the materials to build it. It's like no, no, no, no, it is built. We have to shed shed, shed, shed all of the learned fear shed it. It's not real. Somebody taught you that. Somebody taught you that as a control tactic, like ditch it, ditch it. It's in your way, it's in your way now. And again, like anything else, I think there was a time and a place for that. Like little kids, you know, you got to teach them how to function in a society. Absolutely, but it works until it doesn't work. And I think that sometimes fear, which should be used appropriately, right, we take it too far, just like socially, just like anything else, right where it becomes in control of us and it buries any kind of self awareness or confidence we have. And I hear this all the time too, like, well, I'm afraid to think something even positive of myself because that means I'm arrogant. And I don't want people to think like I'm a bit or I'm vain or whatever, and I'm like, I'm a narcissist. No, narcissis aren't worried about being narcissist, right exactly, if you're asking that question, Noticing something or being confidable that you're good at or being confident in something is not arrogant. Thinking that that makes you better than everybody makes you arrogant. That's something totally different. Let me get your thought on this. This is cat right now, thoughts coming together trying to form yes. So a couple of weeks ago, I released a podcast talking about uh self forth versus self esteem and something that I know now and believe now about self esteem is it It is something that we have been taught we need to build, but it's something we build through outside experiences. Like my self esteem is higher if I'm the smartest in the class, or my self esteem is higher if somebody says I'm the prettiest in their room, or my self esteem is higher because it's something that I worked. And then I got the issue with that is that if self esteem comes when you're better, then only some people can have self esteem and some people can't. And then we're also like what you said, it's a difference between being like self confident and arrogant. It's like, I think I'm better than you because of this thing and so then it gets us in this trap where we always it's like a cycle where we always need to be building self esteem because it only lasts for a period of time. And then if we go from one room to another, they might care about my job, but they don't, so that I have to build something over here. Yes, and so I'm wondering, this is something that I want you guys that are listening, like, this is something I'm teasing now. Is there something we need to do about or study or think about when it comes to what we're focusing on, Like what's the difference between self esteem and confidence? Because confidence feels more connected to self worth. I inherently am worthy as a human being, period, Like, we don't have to make it any more complicated than that self esteem is I am good because kind of it's conditional, it's quantified, right, So when we're talking about confidence, we're saying, hey, you don't actually don't need the self esteem, Like that is a thing that we've made up correct to help people feel better about this themselves. And that is why we have maybe a narcissism epidemic right now, because we have been telling people in order to have confidence, you then have to be better than everybody versus. In order to have confidence, you just have to have stopped just being afraid that you're not good. You just have to be good. God, did that make sense? There's that? Yeah, you just have to be that's it. Yeah, Okay. I don't know if I'm gonna feel about myself saying this later in life, but I just feel like maybe we need to write a book called Nobody Cares about Yourself or like or like something like that, like that has to stop being well. I think you're right. And periods of my life where self esteem has been so crucial and critical to me, it's that it's that same idea where you look, it's you're seeking validation. You're looking for something or somebody outside of you to tell you that you're okay. And any phase of my life where I need that, I'm sure I'll have another one at some point. I mean, it comes and yours right, Like you don't arrive one day and everything's fixed. But during those seasons of my life, there's something I'm really scared of on the inside. I have a little bit of a different take on self, like being worthy. I don't think anybody's worthy. I don't think that's a real thing worthy of what who decides that it's there's still a barometer. I think that's all I don't think. I think we just simply are. I don't think anybody's good or bad, but that's who are? They are unworthy? I just think we are. I think there's choice in consequence. I like what you're saying, and I hear people being like, I don't know what to do with that, because that doesn't give me an answer, that doesn't give me a road map. And what you just said is baby, dear legs, that is and that's okay, that's okay. I have so much compassion for that. Guys listening that know me and know how I feel about this. This right here we're talking about coming from a very seasoned therapist that I highly respect. This is why I cannot stand people on the internet and who are selling you these books five steps to this? Who are these self help gurus? Who are I mean, sure you can be self proclaimed anything, and not everybody needs to have a degree from a school to be able to help people. But that is why I have such an issue, is because we're making ship up when we really need to be breaking things down. But people are uncomfortable with what you just said, and I think that naturally so right, I was uncomfortable when I first started to put put some of this stuff together. I'm like that, And here's why it makes me uncomfortable because I'm American, and I am programmed and trained to work and earn and achieve. And I'm thinking, wait a minute, so you're saying that, like I've built my whole life and my sense of self on this premise that like I can't earn, there's no roadmap. Wait, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute. And I had to take a lot of time and undo a lot of those messages and things that we learned. And of course, I mean, yeah, that's why I have so much compassion for folks new to this idea that you just get to be in. You're totally safe again as a spiritual creature having a human experience, and you're having the same experience we're all having in your own unique way. Because it's harder to unlearn things than to learn things. And that's where a lot where this all is coming from. And so it's the idea is like I can be happier by doing less. Wait a minute, I'm working too hard. Wait a minute, I'm doing too much. Yeah. So I've seen all of this stuff for ever. I mean i've been I've been working with clients for over a decade, and it's not rare, it's it's it's become just sort of just sort of this common experience, right, and especially with our treatment model, with mental and behavioral healthcare treatment in the United States, really all over the world, it's we've got these real high intense levels of care, right that are so needed and so appropriate. But what's happening is, you know, all of my folks are coming home to me from these places and they dropped down, like you said, I'll see him an hour a week if I'm lucky, and there's too big of a gap. So I've been complaining about this for years and years and years. And about five years ago, I was on the phone with my mom, really upset because yet another one of my clients was relapsing, and I felt ethically somebody should do something about this, like what's going She said, honey, you talk about this all the time, and I said I do, and She's like, yeah, you're always so upset that there's not anything to help people with what they need, like a like an in between, and I said I do and she goes, yeah, So either you do something about it or hush. That's okay, mom, if that's your real name, David, all right, call me out of my ship. That's all right. Cool. So I'll hung up. And I was like, oh God, I have to do I have to do something. I have to do. There has to be something. So the answer to the perceived issue here I came up with what I call the collective. The collective is a new level of care. It's between higher levels of care like residential, partial hospitalization, I hope things like that, right, which there is such a need for that absolutely, and outpatient, which is just seen a therapist kind of regular maintenance growth like more more slower like slower growth, things like that. But it's it's it's so limited, right because we don't I mean, we're so overbooked and there's so much need on an outpatient level. So what the collective is called is e o P, which is extended out patient. It's and it's a set period of time, so it's only eight weeks, and the entire program it's all centered around what we call a social health platform. Social health is not addressed anywhere. Nobody's talking about it. There is research on this, but it's not widely used, it's not commonly practiced. And my opinion, what I have been seeing is so many resources for mental health, emotional health, physical health, spiritual health, all the facets of human growth, but there's nothing to help folks develop socially. And that's where we're seeing the biggest deficit in this country right now, right is more isolation, more loneliness. And if it's true, if we're onto something here where there's so much physical, spiritual, mental and emotional health issues, we're peeling back all of these issues to find the common denominator. It's separation and its isolation and its loneliness, and it's mothering and it's everybody feels so alone. And I think we all are figuring that out. And seeing the fallout after and the lockdown and the separate it became, it became so glaringly obvious. It was too big. It just blew up overnight and I thought, oh my god, now everybody's going to see like this is what we're talking about, right And I just started the collective right before the pandemic and I'm like, oh my god, my dad's an attorney, and he's like a board, get out, shut it down. You're like, I looked at him, just kind of square in the eye, and I said, no, sir, no, no, because I feel like it was such a beautiful opportunity for everybody to come face to face, what what what we've been dealing with all along, and it blew up in a way that it, like you said, it could not be ignored. Um. So, the Collective is an eight week program. The groups that move through are closed, right, so any any group work you do at a higher level of care. The groups are homogenious, right, so everybody in there is going to be just like you, because again it's baby deer like, so you've got to have that mirrored back to you. Of course, that's absolutely what you needed that at that point in the process. The collective exists and the groups are closed because it allows people to develop a sense of social health. Right. The groups are small, no more than eight people, and they're all mixed diagnostically, so we'll have folks in there who are coming home from a rehab center, were mixed with folks who are who are stepping up from an outpatient level mixed with folks who have never been in therapy before. We'll have people with brand new diagnoses, will have people with no diagnoses, will have people with substance use issues, people with eating disorders, and people who just feel sad. Right, But that's such a beautiful little microcosum of real life. That's real life, that's what you're talking about. It's like, these people don't all have to be just like me for me to be okay with these people. Yeah, And so that's what we do, and we kind of teach people how to manage and own and be accountable for themselves in their life while in connection with other people who are doing the same thing. And what we're finding is that it's it's incredible. Cat Like, the people who graduate this program are different human beings than the ones we met two months ago. And I think it's because they feel safe and they don't rely on the collective to make them feel safe. They don't rely on rely on therapy, they don't rely on Sobriete. It's inside of them. They keep that they are squarely in charge of that, and there's so much peace and empowerment and everything just kind of calms down when that moves from an external locus of control to an internal one. It's it's pretty profound. So it's it's really cool to be a part of it. I love the name of it, the Collective. Everybody thinks it's like me and the staff that were the collective, and I'm like, no, it's all of y'all. Yeah, it's everybody. It's everybody. It's all of us. We just work here. But the collective, it's the body of folks moving through this program and learning how to do community with each other. And then after each group graduates, after the eight weeks, we have this giant after care community where all of the groups get to be introduced to the folks who graduated before them, and they're continually introduced to all the people who graduate after them. So the network of like minded people can grow and grow and grow and grow, and they're all so different from each other, different walks of different socio economic backgrounds, different experiences, and it's the most beautiful, healing, calming. It's it's pretty incredible. It's pretty awesome. You know what is what I just thought of is did you ever go to camp as a kid? Okay, so I remember going to camps, and I ended up in college. I volunteered at these camps and that's more of my experience than being an actual camper. But you go to this place that you're connected to all these people that are literally so different from you, and then you ask yourself like, wait a second, how can I be like BFF with this person? You know, like this is so and how But then you're like, I learned so much from this person and I don't want to let go of this person. And oh my gosh, I never would have met this person if there wasn't a place like this. And like when you say social health, I'm like, oh yeah, we're so separated in that, and you're giving us and you're giving humans an experience to like go learn that we are allowed to be with people, like we can take our camp friends home with us, like they don't have to stay at camp. You can fell like we go to camp, and that's where you can be friends with people that don't look just like you, dude. Camp friends are everywhere. They're everywhere. There in your office, there at your school, they live next to their everywhere, because that's that's it, right, Like instead of mothering somebody because the shell is different, learn the skills and the tools to understand that. On the inside, it's it's all exactly the same. We just want to love and be loved back. That's it, and let's coexist with different shells, but let's connect that the squishy inside part. Yes, Oh my god, alright, so thank you for being here. Oh my god, what an honor. Thank you for having me. We literally could stay here for three more hours, but for the sake of everybody's lives, we're not going to do that. So thank you for being here. I'm going to anybody who's listening who wants to know more about Courtney, who wants to know more about the Collective or anything that we've talked about. I will put links so you can just click something real easy and then be shot right to the interwebs of where that lives and connect in that way. That will be in the show notes. So to click on wherever you're listening to, this will be in there, and give the Collective a follow. What's your Instagram handle for? It's at my Collective care Okay, amazing, wonderful. Um, we'd love to have you and that's going to do it for us. So thanks for listening if you have questions. So, if you guys have any questions, any feedback, anything, send that to Catherine at You Need Therapy podcast dot com. Remember we do couch talks on Wednesday where I answer questions that you guys sent to me, which usually ends up me being a person who's asking questions back to you. Um. But if you have questions specifically about things we talked about in this episode, in this conversation, know that I welcome those. There's a lot in here, There's a lot that I'm about to write down. So yeah, send your curiosity my way, and maybe Courtney will be back here again. I would love it. Yes, all right By