Plays Well with Others: Working with Beta Readers, Editors, and More

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Music.
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Welcome back to Writing While Distracted. I'm Brenda Murphy,
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your NeuroSpicy writing coach, and today we're going to dive into working with
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beta readers, developmental editors,
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and copy editors during the revision process, or as I like to call it,
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learning how to play well with others.
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Stay tuned while we talk about best practices while working with others to make your manuscript shine.
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Before we get into the tips for working with beta readers, copy editors,
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and developmental editors, I want to discuss an issue that many neurodivergent
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folks struggle with, and that's called rejection sensitivity dysphoria.
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Also, you'll see it labeled as RSD.
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RSD manifests as an extreme response to perceived or actual rejection, criticism, or failure.
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It can can lead to significant feelings of sadness, worthlessness, and anxiety.
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RSD can make it hard to maintain relationships and to stick with projects and pursue goals.
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Rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria can very much affect your relationships with
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folks you ask to review your work, like beta readers, copy editors,
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and developmental editors, or agents if you're submitting your manuscript for representation.
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If you are aware that RSD is an issue for you, You need to take some time to
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work out a plan to deal with those intense feelings.
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I'm not going to tell you to not have those feelings because you're going to
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have them, but having a plan in place to deal with them will do a lot to head
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off potential problems.
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I'm not a mental health professional, but I have benefited greatly from working
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with some to come up with strategies to cope with RSD.
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So do yourself a favor if you have that opportunity or
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if you know this is an issue or maybe you
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don't know that's an issue but maybe it comes up with you while
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you're working with your beta readers your
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copy editors your developmental editors or your potential agents if it does
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step back assess what you're worrying about assess what you're reacting to and
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get some help with dealing with those feelings find someone to talk to work
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out a plan Because they may not go away,
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but in order for you to be successful,
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you're going to have to develop a plan to deal with those feelings.
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And that goes for your personal relationships, too, as well as professional relationships.
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So get ahead of the curve. If you know it's an issue for you,
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work to sort those things out before you start working with your beta readers,
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your developmental editors, your potential agents, your.
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Now on to discussing how to work with those people you've asked to review your manuscript.
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Each of those people plays a different role in the revision process.
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So beta readers are like your early test audience. They're the people that are
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going to give you feedback on the story from a reader's perspective.
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They'll note any confusion they have during the reading, whether or not they're
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emotionally engaged, and they may point out some continuity errors.
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Not all beta readers pick up on those, but if they do, be very grateful.
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They'll address pacing issues.
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They basically can answer questions that you have as a writer about how your
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work reads to a reader, which is a very different thing. Writers read differently than readers.
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Readers usually are reading for pleasure and enjoyment. Writers,
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sometimes we read for pleasure, but a lot of times we're reading books to see
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how they're put together so we can figure out how to do that ourselves.
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We also, as neurodiverse people, are really great at filling in the blanks in our own head.
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However, those things that are in our head don't always make it to the page.
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And while something may make perfect sense to you as a writer,
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because you know the backstory and you know all the ins and outs and details,
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it may not make sense to your reader.
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Beta readers are going going to help you help your story make sense to someone
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who doesn't know all of those things.
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Now, what does a developmental editor do and how are they different?
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Developmental editors are professionals.
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They are people that you hire to focus on your manuscript from a big picture
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aspect, like a helicopter view.
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They're going to look at structure, plot holes, character development, and pacing.
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Their feedback should be strategic and guide you on how to make those manuscripts,
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corrections. Now, I didn't say that they would fix your manuscript.
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That's up to you. But their suggestions should be concrete enough that you're
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able to take those and interpret them and fix things in your manuscript.
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Say you've got a big plot hole and they feel like you need to address the gap.
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Say that you don't have enough clues sprinkled in the beginning of your novel
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if if you're writing a murder mystery, for anyone to solve it if they're not you.
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Those are the kinds of things that a developmental editor will address.
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Now, what is a copy editor? A copy editor is going to zero in on your language,
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your grammar, style consistency, and your mechanics.
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Sometimes you will find copy editors that also do the work of developmental
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editors, and this is very, very common in small presses.
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They don't have two separate editors to work with you.
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Your copy editor may be your acquiring editor in that they're an editor that
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you send a manuscript to in hopes of having it published.
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They may function as a developmental editor in that they're going to work with
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you on your manuscript to get it more polished and have any of the big items
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fixed, structure, details, plot holes.
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And then they're also going to address your language. They wear many hats.
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It's going to depend on what your particular publishing house,
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if you're working with one, has as their business model.
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Now, if you hire an editor, if you are an indie person, indie publishing person,
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and you want to hire an editor, you need to be very clear on what skills they
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bring to the table and what you're asking them to do with your manuscripts.
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That will solve 90% of the issues that come from confusion.
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Ask them if they also are functioning as a developmental editor.
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Also be clear about what it is you want. If you feel confident in your story,
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if you feel like you and your beta readers have worked out all of those structural
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issues and that it reads pretty well and you feel confident in that and you
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only want someone to look at it from a language perspective,
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that's where you can go with just a copy editor.
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But if you feel like you may need a professional to help you address some of those issues,
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if you don't have a writer friend that you can work with and you feel like or
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maybe you don't want to burden them or maybe you wouldn't feel comfortable or
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you want someone who doesn't have any kind of an emotional investment in your work,
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that's one of the best reasons to hire professional people.
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People they don't have an emotional investment
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in your work it remains your work they remain
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professional you remain professional and you sort out
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the things we can be sensitive as neurodiverse people we can be sensitive as
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as authors and creators we're sensitive about what we do we care about it some
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people refer to their books as their babies i don't in particular but i am invested in my work.
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Learning to take critique. Notice I did not say criticism.
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Critique is something that will
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help you improve. Something that is a concrete action you can work on.
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Say, for instance, you repeatedly use the same word in your manuscript.
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Say that you have 400 instances sentences of just, or that, or so,
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your editor will point that out to you and say, that's too many,
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and you need to fix your sentences.
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I have a really bad habit of using the word that.
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In fact, it's so bad, usually at the end of my manuscript, I do a global delete
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of the word that because it's easier for me to go back and put them in where they belong.
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It'll become painfully evident in a sentence if you need the word that versus
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you have that in there and you didn't need it in the first place that the sentence
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reads perfectly okay without it.
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So those are the kinds of things you want to keep in mind when you're choosing
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who to work with at what point.
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I work with beta readers before I send my manuscript off to be either gone over
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by a copy editor or to an acquiring editor.
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That is where I use my beta readers. Some people use beta readers in the very
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early stages of their manuscript.
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Some people send their beta readers one chapter at a time. I don't.
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It's going to depend on what works for you and what works for your beta reader.
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Now let's talk about some best practices when working with beta readers,
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and I've touched on a few of those.
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Think of them as your first line of defense.
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Hopefully they're the people that are going to pick up on those big mistakes
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that will totally throw your novel off.
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Pacing issues, plot holes, whether or not your characters are engaging.
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Do they like your characters? Do they hate your characters? Do they wish your
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characters were a little different or they wish something else would happen.
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Those are the kinds of things that you want your beta readers to bring to the table.
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I usually, if I have doubts about a story, sometimes I'll just take a couple
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of pages and I may send them off to my beta reader and say, I'm not sure about this.
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What do you think? And then use that information to go forward to figure out
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whether or not that's where I want to go with that story.
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It's going to depend on how closely you work with people. it's going to depend
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on if you have one beta reader or if you have multiple beta readers.
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You can have different beta readers for different things. I write romance,
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paranormal, and horror.
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Not everybody likes to read those things. So I have separate people I work with
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for separate books I write.
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I write high fantasy too. I have a different beta reader for that.
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If you can find people that read in your genre, want to read for you,
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like your style, and are willing to put the work in and actually address questions
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that you send to them, treasure those people.
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Compensate them for their time in some way if you can, you know,
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give them a signed copy of the book.
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If you happen to be able to go meet them someplace, take them to dinner,
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whatever, be appreciative.
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They're doing this as a volunteer to help you make your work better.
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And that kind of service is so remarkable and so wonderful.
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I would not publish half the books I've published if it were not for the amazing
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beta readers that I work with.
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When I was talking about finding beta readers that read specific things,
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so one of the first things you want to do is make sure you find a beta reader in your genre, okay?
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Make sure they're familiar with the expectations so they can give you relevant feedback.
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You're going to want to limit the number of beta readers. Some people use between,
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you know, some people use five, some people use one.
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I have found that one to three is a good number for me, typically only two per manuscript.
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Otherwise, I get too much feedback and I have no idea what the heck I'm going to do with all of it.
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But if you get the same feedback from two different beta readers,
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pay attention to that because that's probably something you really do need to
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fix if more than one person notices it.
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Again, it's up to you. It's your manuscript, but pay attention.
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These people are being very gracious and offering you their opinions.
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Most Most of them read volumes of books. They're readers.
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They like reading. They don't want to write themselves, although some of my
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beta readers are also writers.
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Sometimes I trade beta reading with other writers.
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Typically, it's not people who write in my genre, although I'll read their genre.
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So I do a lot of nonfiction beta reading.
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I will do horror beta reading. Even though I write horror, I've read enough
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to know whether or not I like this book and And I feel like I can offer constructive
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criticism around horror novels.
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So work that out. It's a really amazing system when it works.
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As I said, when you're working with beta readers, be clear about what you want.
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Don't just send it to them and say, hey, what do you think? If you have questions
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like, is this character's behavior reasonable or unrealistic?
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You know, those are the kinds of questions. What did you think of this?
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What did you think of that? Does this make sense to you? those kinds of things
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that you personally have questions about your manuscript, you're just a little
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unsure or you're not confident in, make sure that you send them those questions.
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If you have specific questions, also do your best to send as clean a copy as
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you can to your beta readers.
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They shouldn't have to slug through your very, very, very messy first draft.
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That's not what they're there for.
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They should be able to sit down and read it as close to book form as you can
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make it, because that's where you want them to help you.
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Now, if it's you're working with beta readers in the beginning part of your
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story, even if you're sending them a chapter to look at, do at least a basic
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edit before you send that to them.
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Most beta readers, again, work out of the goodness of their heart.
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So respect their time, respect their input, respect them as human beings.
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If you're angry over something they write back to you, don't respond in the moment.
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If it becomes apparent that you are not working well with your beta reader, don't be ugly about it.
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The writing community can be a very small community at times.
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And don't be ugly to anyone.
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Don't write a rude response. Don't. Don't. Now, if you get a beta reader that
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responds to you in a very cruel, unkind, unnecessarily rude way,
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you don't have to keep working with them.
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Run that through your RSD filter.
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Are you overreacting? It is perfectly acceptable to have a neutral party read
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if you've gotten an email that you think is really rude and you've gotten feedback
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that you don't like or you think is harsh,
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it is perfectly acceptable to have someone else read that, you know,
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redact the beta reader's name.
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Don't post it in a social media forum, but contact a close friend and say,
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hey, I got this feedback.
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Do you think it's out of line? Or do you think it's harsh?
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Or what do you think about the tone? That kind of thing.
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Having someone else's eyes on things that come to you if you know you struggle
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with RSD is super helpful.
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I want you to stay open-minded about your beta reader's feedback. You ask them for help.
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You are not a perfect, none of us are a perfect writer.
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We all require a lot of help and a lot of input from other people to make our
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books be the best that they can be.
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We need that input.
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No one writes in isolation. And all of those people that you see that you think are amazing writers,
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have oftentimes a huge group of people behind them helping them turn out really
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amazing books and take advantage of those extra people's.
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Opinions, their suggestions,
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their observations to make your book shine, to make it be the best it can be
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for the most amount of people.
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Because that's what you want. You want it to appeal to a broad range of readers.
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Don't argue with your beta readers' feedback. You can offer an explanation if
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they ask a question, or if something's unclear, you can say,
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did you see this part here? Because sometimes beta readers are reading in a hurry.
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They may have missed the first part of an explanation, and they have questions later.
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But that can be a signal to you that maybe you need to bring those things closer
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together so someone doesn't forget from one page to the next what's happening.
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But don't argue with them. There's no point in it. They have their opinion,
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and an opinion is something you are allowed to have.
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You don't have to justify it unless you're getting paid to offer a professional
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opinion, and most beta readers are not paid.
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So if that's the case, don't argue. They don't have to justify to you their opinions.
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You ask them for it. Listen to it. Take what works for you.
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If it doesn't apply or you don't agree with it, you don't have to follow it.
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There's nothing that says you have to follow it, but at least look at it and consider it.
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Don't reject it outright unless it's something that would massively change your
00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.220
entire story and you're not ready to do a complete rewrite.
00:17:15.760 --> 00:17:20.360
If it's not working with you and your beta reader, it's okay to move on to another beta reader.
00:17:21.214 --> 00:17:27.294
Now, a word about sensitivity readers. Sensitivity readers fall somewhere between
00:17:27.294 --> 00:17:30.934
a beta reader and a developmental editor.
00:17:32.054 --> 00:17:37.754
Beta readers are not typically paid for their work.
00:17:38.154 --> 00:17:43.614
Sensitivity readers should be compensated in some way for their time.
00:17:43.714 --> 00:17:49.054
And you employ sensitivity readers when you're writing outside your lived experience,
00:17:49.054 --> 00:17:53.834
and you want to ensure that your manuscript, to the best of your ability,
00:17:54.074 --> 00:18:01.214
is reasonable in your writing about those experiences outside your own.
00:18:01.394 --> 00:18:03.354
And this can be for anything.
00:18:03.594 --> 00:18:08.794
I have done beta reading for people who are neuroatypical.
00:18:08.954 --> 00:18:13.414
I have done beta reading for people who suffer from PTSD.
00:18:14.074 --> 00:18:19.834
I have done beta reading for people who have been, other writers writing people
00:18:19.834 --> 00:18:21.574
who've dealt with anorexia.
00:18:21.774 --> 00:18:26.034
It doesn't have to be about race, although if you are writing about someone
00:18:26.034 --> 00:18:31.134
who is outside of your community and outside of your race,
00:18:31.254 --> 00:18:36.974
it is a very good idea to have someone read over your manuscript that is part of that community.
00:18:37.934 --> 00:18:40.694
That's my suggestion. you don't have to take it,
00:18:40.754 --> 00:18:48.014
but don't be a lazy writer and rely upon stereotypes or what you've seen on
00:18:48.014 --> 00:18:53.754
television movies to give you an idea of what any marginalized group is like.
00:18:53.994 --> 00:18:57.934
This goes for language, this goes for appearance, this goes for interpersonal
00:18:57.934 --> 00:18:59.874
relationships within that group.
00:19:00.214 --> 00:19:08.334
It's a very easy thing to make an error in writing about groups that are outside your own experience.
00:19:09.294 --> 00:19:14.374
Now, if you hire a sensitivity reader and they give you feedback on your manuscript
00:19:14.374 --> 00:19:18.534
and suggest you make changes, please listen to them.
00:19:18.574 --> 00:19:21.374
You are paying them or compensating them for their service.
00:19:21.974 --> 00:19:26.474
They also have a different experience than you do. And listen to their experience.
00:19:27.074 --> 00:19:32.854
The flip side of that is one sensitivity reader does not represent an entire group.
00:19:33.014 --> 00:19:37.354
If someone has hired me as a sensitivity reader to read their book that deals
00:19:37.354 --> 00:19:41.414
with a woman who has post-traumatic stress disorder,
00:19:41.594 --> 00:19:47.414
and they want to know if they've written about this in what is a way that truly
00:19:47.414 --> 00:19:48.914
represents the experience,
00:19:49.254 --> 00:19:54.334
and I give my opinions about how they've written it, that's based on my experience
00:19:54.334 --> 00:19:56.094
as a person dealing with that.
00:19:57.007 --> 00:20:01.827
And what problems that I have and have faced with that issue.
00:20:02.587 --> 00:20:08.347
And so that's all I can offer. I can't tell you what someone who has PTSD from
00:20:08.347 --> 00:20:13.947
a different experience, what their reactions might be. I can't give you that.
00:20:14.107 --> 00:20:16.247
I can't speak for everybody with PTSD.
00:20:16.507 --> 00:20:20.507
I only know how it applies to me. And every sensitivity reader that comes to
00:20:20.507 --> 00:20:25.307
your book can only bring their own knowledge and personal experience.
00:20:26.267 --> 00:20:32.527
So remember that. And remember, if you are later criticized for something in
00:20:32.527 --> 00:20:38.167
your novel that someone else in a marginalized group thought that you didn't do a good job with,
00:20:38.707 --> 00:20:42.507
even if you had a sensitivity reader, you don't throw that up as an excuse.
00:20:42.787 --> 00:20:46.407
The best way to handle it, I've found over the years, is to say,
00:20:46.447 --> 00:20:49.087
thank you so much for taking the time to give me your feedback.
00:20:49.927 --> 00:20:52.987
That's all you have to say. You don't have to say anything else.
00:20:53.467 --> 00:20:56.907
And let it go and move on. If you've done your due diligence,
00:20:57.087 --> 00:21:01.307
if you have done the best that you've done, accept the criticism,
00:21:01.547 --> 00:21:04.867
accept the critique, move on.
00:21:05.007 --> 00:21:12.067
Because you can't account for everyone, although you can do your best to try
00:21:12.067 --> 00:21:18.227
and write the best book, especially when writing about marginalized groups, that represents them.
00:21:18.807 --> 00:21:22.187
So that's all I'm going to say about sensitivity It is a deep subject.
00:21:22.307 --> 00:21:25.087
I may end up doing an entire podcast on that.
00:21:25.247 --> 00:21:29.827
I have some friends that work as sensitivity readers and I may do like a roundtable
00:21:29.827 --> 00:21:32.647
discussion or bring them on one at a time to talk about that in the future.
00:21:32.747 --> 00:21:37.947
If that's something you'd like to hear or like to have happen on the podcast,
00:21:38.147 --> 00:21:42.347
please leave me a comment down below and let me know if you'd like a special
00:21:42.347 --> 00:21:45.567
podcast just about working with sensitivity readers. Thanks.
00:21:46.387 --> 00:21:50.747
So we've gone over, I think we've exhausted the subject for beta readers.
00:21:50.887 --> 00:21:52.847
So let's move on to developmental editors.
00:21:53.787 --> 00:21:57.747
Now, developmental editors are professionals. They are typically people who
00:21:57.747 --> 00:21:59.167
have been trained as editors.
00:21:59.447 --> 00:22:09.347
They have behind them an education and experience that you can hopefully rely
00:22:09.347 --> 00:22:13.287
on to help you get your novel where it needs to be.
00:22:13.847 --> 00:22:18.207
With developmental edits, oftentimes you should be ready for big changes.
00:22:18.247 --> 00:22:20.627
I know people that have worked with editors before.
00:22:21.592 --> 00:22:26.512
I know people that have worked with developmental editors that will get a 20-page
00:22:26.512 --> 00:22:35.812
or 30-page document of notes and changes that need to be made in their novel to move it forward.
00:22:36.052 --> 00:22:40.892
And that's more common if you work with an agent. You will oftentimes get 30
00:22:40.892 --> 00:22:43.272
or 40 pages or if you work with one of the big publishing houses.
00:22:43.512 --> 00:22:46.792
I personally have never gotten that many pages back.
00:22:46.792 --> 00:22:49.612
I the publishing houses that
00:22:49.612 --> 00:22:53.152
I work with tend to make their notes within the document
00:22:53.152 --> 00:22:56.152
I don't get a formal huge letter that
00:22:56.152 --> 00:22:59.772
says these are the things you need to do to fix your book so we can publish it I
00:22:59.772 --> 00:23:02.472
kind of like it that it's built into the document because it
00:23:02.472 --> 00:23:06.712
lets me address them one at a time however if I've gotten notes from my editor
00:23:06.712 --> 00:23:12.092
that says I need to fix some big thing I go back and fix that big thing and
00:23:12.092 --> 00:23:17.732
I don't I don't argue about it with with my editor because Because I've worked
00:23:17.732 --> 00:23:20.452
with my one editor I have worked with for 12 years.
00:23:20.652 --> 00:23:25.072
I understand her. I trust her. She understands me. We work really well together.
00:23:25.352 --> 00:23:29.952
And so that works. If I was working with a new editor and they gave me a huge
00:23:29.952 --> 00:23:36.972
list of suggestions, again, depending on what my goals were and what I felt like was reasonable.
00:23:37.452 --> 00:23:41.612
I might question some of those at this point in my career.
00:23:41.692 --> 00:23:46.512
As a new writer, I might not question them. It just depends on where you are.
00:23:46.832 --> 00:23:50.252
And you're going to have to read through the notes, keep an open mind,
00:23:50.372 --> 00:23:56.012
and see if it becomes, see if the changes are going to drastically change your novel.
00:23:56.332 --> 00:23:59.152
Will it still be the story that you wanted to tell?
00:23:59.792 --> 00:24:03.872
Or if you can take those suggestions and still tell the story that you want to tell.
00:24:03.952 --> 00:24:06.492
And that's only something that you're going to be able to do once you get those
00:24:06.492 --> 00:24:10.752
edits. But you need to, before you start, clarify your vision,
00:24:10.852 --> 00:24:14.432
at least to yourself, of what story it is that you want to tell.
00:24:15.052 --> 00:24:19.292
And make sure that your editor understands that, particularly if you are hiring
00:24:19.292 --> 00:24:20.392
the developmental editor.
00:24:20.572 --> 00:24:24.432
Now, a lot of this is going to be out of your control if you work with a publishing house.
00:24:24.952 --> 00:24:28.472
They're going to set you up with whatever editor they feel is best for you or
00:24:28.472 --> 00:24:29.632
whoever has an open slot.
00:24:29.832 --> 00:24:32.712
And that's how it's going to roll. So you're going to have to figure out and
00:24:32.712 --> 00:24:36.792
be clear in your own mind, what kinds of things do you want in this book?
00:24:36.872 --> 00:24:39.792
What story are you telling before you start working with that editor?
00:24:40.432 --> 00:24:44.892
And you can ask for a letter. A lot of times they'll just send it to you as a letter.
00:24:44.972 --> 00:24:50.472
I like the notes in the document itself because sometimes I have moved on to the next book.
00:24:50.512 --> 00:24:53.272
I'm in the middle of writing the next book and I may not remember all the details
00:24:53.272 --> 00:24:54.752
for the books that they're editing.
00:24:55.012 --> 00:25:01.292
So for me, notes within the text or next to it, like if you have Word and you
00:25:01.292 --> 00:25:03.032
have tracks changes down the side.
00:25:03.152 --> 00:25:07.292
I prefer comments and notes in the text directly so I can respond to them.
00:25:08.161 --> 00:25:12.621
Every editor will have a way that they like to work. And if you've hired them,
00:25:12.801 --> 00:25:14.941
they're going to already have their way.
00:25:15.081 --> 00:25:17.921
You can request that they work differently. But again, you hired them knowing
00:25:17.921 --> 00:25:22.301
what they were doing. You can ask for a sample edit from a developmental editor.
00:25:22.421 --> 00:25:24.961
If you're hiring someone independently, ask for a sample edit.
00:25:25.061 --> 00:25:26.981
Ask for a sample of how they work.
00:25:27.721 --> 00:25:32.081
You're paying them money to help you fix your book. And as a consumer,
00:25:32.241 --> 00:25:36.481
you have every right to ask, what does this entail? What am I getting for the money?
00:25:37.101 --> 00:25:40.401
What are the deadlines? You know, are you going to stick to deadline?
00:25:40.541 --> 00:25:42.101
How long is this going to take you?
00:25:42.721 --> 00:25:46.121
When can I expect to get my manuscript back?
00:25:46.921 --> 00:25:51.901
And those kinds of things, working out payment, whether you are paying everything
00:25:51.901 --> 00:25:56.241
up front, which I don't recommend, whether you pay at halfway points,
00:25:56.361 --> 00:25:59.261
like if they've done half the manuscript, if you break the payments up,
00:25:59.681 --> 00:26:02.801
you know, you're going to have to figure out what works for you and what you
00:26:02.801 --> 00:26:05.041
feel secure with in hiring people.
00:26:05.581 --> 00:26:13.001
It's best to, once you get those edits back, to ask questions about anything you don't understand.
00:26:13.181 --> 00:26:16.861
If you have a question about any of the edits or suggestions, ask them.
00:26:17.241 --> 00:26:22.101
Be clear about what they want before you do a whole bunch of work that didn't
00:26:22.101 --> 00:26:24.301
meet the criteria of what they wanted anyway.
00:26:25.101 --> 00:26:29.461
That's just a waste of everyone's time. When you get those edits back,
00:26:29.681 --> 00:26:32.141
work in stages to address them.
00:26:32.701 --> 00:26:36.081
Especially if you've gotten a long letter, if you've gotten a 30-page letter,
00:26:36.881 --> 00:26:41.761
don't try to address all those changes all at once. It will exhaust you.
00:26:41.941 --> 00:26:46.881
Be mindful of your spoon level. If you're one of those people that works with
00:26:46.881 --> 00:26:49.981
spoons, how many spoons do you have?
00:26:50.121 --> 00:26:52.801
And if you're not familiar with spoon theory, go look it up.
00:26:52.861 --> 00:26:54.341
I'm sure you'll figure it out from there.
00:26:54.661 --> 00:26:57.821
It's such a common term. I'm fairly certain everybody knows what I'm talking about.
00:26:57.881 --> 00:27:03.661
If you You have to guard your energy if you're working with a long-term disability
00:27:03.661 --> 00:27:06.481
in some fashion. You know, break these up.
00:27:06.901 --> 00:27:11.681
Or your mental health, break these edits up. It's overwhelming to get a 30-page
00:27:11.681 --> 00:27:14.561
document back that says these are all the things you need to fix in your manuscript
00:27:14.561 --> 00:27:17.621
that you've already worked so hard on.
00:27:18.061 --> 00:27:23.741
So again, RSD rearing its ugly head along with a healthy dose of imposter syndrome
00:27:23.741 --> 00:27:26.001
can pop up like I'm never going to be a writer.
00:27:26.121 --> 00:27:29.861
I can't believe all these changes. If you talk to anyone who's a professional
00:27:29.861 --> 00:27:34.401
writer who has worked over any length of time, they will tell you that we've
00:27:34.401 --> 00:27:38.941
all had that time where there were so many things that they had to fix in their manuscript,
00:27:39.121 --> 00:27:43.121
they wondered whether they should just throw it in the trash and start over. Don't do that.
00:27:43.701 --> 00:27:46.801
Work to get the fixes in, but take your time doing it.
00:27:47.520 --> 00:27:51.640
Use track changes, of course, so that you always have a copy.
00:27:51.760 --> 00:27:56.640
Now, what I do when I get my edits back is I make a document,
00:27:56.780 --> 00:28:04.300
a new document, and I label it as the edits from and whoever the edits are from that I'm working on.
00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:07.980
Because that way, I do the same thing with beta readers. Like if I get beta
00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:11.320
reader suggestions back, edits back, and they've made notes,
00:28:11.320 --> 00:28:16.220
we use track changes too, I label that document with that particular beta reader's
00:28:16.220 --> 00:28:18.740
name so that I know who gave me that feedback.
00:28:19.040 --> 00:28:22.940
Do the same with your developmental editor. Put the date on it.
00:28:23.040 --> 00:28:28.180
I save a new copy each time I work on it. So I have a progression of the edits.
00:28:28.740 --> 00:28:33.800
When all the edits are in, I make one final copy, final edits,
00:28:34.100 --> 00:28:36.340
the name of the book and the editor.
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:39.520
And then I send it back to them because if you're working in a publishing house,
00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:40.880
that's what's going to happen next.
00:28:41.140 --> 00:28:47.180
You may have two or three rounds of edits before it is finalized to go to be published.
00:28:47.900 --> 00:28:52.220
Trust the process. This is going to be the hardest thing to do the very first
00:28:52.220 --> 00:28:58.260
time you work with an editor because, one, you're super excited that your book
00:28:58.260 --> 00:28:59.840
is actually going to be published.
00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:04.520
Now, for indie published folks, it's kind of a different scenario,
00:29:04.600 --> 00:29:09.640
but I imagine there's the same excitement that you're working with a professional
00:29:09.640 --> 00:29:13.220
who's going to make your book better that is going to lead to publication.
00:29:13.760 --> 00:29:19.340
If you're working with a publishing house, it is a huge deal to know that your
00:29:19.340 --> 00:29:23.580
book is finally going to be published because once you start working with an
00:29:23.580 --> 00:29:28.540
editor, once you've signed that contract, there are a lot of things that are out of your control.
00:29:29.542 --> 00:29:33.842
And you're going to be working on their timeline. That's something you really
00:29:33.842 --> 00:29:36.502
need to pay attention to when you're doing your revisions.
00:29:37.282 --> 00:29:40.442
Don't miss deadlines if you can help it.
00:29:40.562 --> 00:29:45.062
Now, if you get something back and the deadline is absolutely unreasonable.
00:29:45.882 --> 00:29:49.282
Write back, explain why the deadline is unreasonable.
00:29:49.522 --> 00:29:54.122
Say they only give you a week to address 30 pages of edits, and you can then
00:29:54.122 --> 00:29:57.722
write back and say, I'm going to need more time and explain why.
00:29:58.222 --> 00:30:03.522
And then this is the good part. You can write back to them and say, this is unreasonable.
00:30:03.922 --> 00:30:10.642
I cannot address these in this amount of time. And then propose a new deadline.
00:30:11.342 --> 00:30:15.222
Don't just leave it open-ended and say, I need more time.
00:30:15.522 --> 00:30:20.662
I need more time to the editor might mean I need another week.
00:30:21.022 --> 00:30:24.122
To you, it might mean I need another month.
00:30:24.442 --> 00:30:29.382
So be clear in exactly how much time you're going to need. If you've had some
00:30:29.382 --> 00:30:31.362
crisis happen in your family, it can happen.
00:30:31.642 --> 00:30:35.782
If you've had some other thing happen that's going to delay you,
00:30:35.902 --> 00:30:40.882
always, always, always communicate with your editor and let them know what's
00:30:40.882 --> 00:30:42.942
going on with the deadline, what's going on with you.
00:30:43.002 --> 00:30:48.242
The worst thing you can do is miss a deadline and make them track you down.
00:30:48.342 --> 00:30:51.542
It will not endear you to any editor you're working with.
00:30:51.982 --> 00:30:56.862
So stay on top of your deadlines, work them as best you can,
00:30:56.982 --> 00:31:01.542
and ask for more time respectfully and politely. Remember, it's a business relationship.
00:31:02.262 --> 00:31:06.822
If you need more time, don't just blow it off and assume you're going to do it.
00:31:06.862 --> 00:31:10.842
So be very, very clear in how much time it's going to take you.
00:31:10.862 --> 00:31:12.702
You may not know how much time it's going to take you.
00:31:13.102 --> 00:31:17.142
Err on the side of asking for more time if you feel like you're going to need it.
00:31:18.002 --> 00:31:23.022
Now, working with copy editors, And a lot of the copy editing stuff sort of
00:31:23.022 --> 00:31:27.162
overlaps with developmental editors was, like I said, in a small publishing house.
00:31:27.422 --> 00:31:31.422
The copy editor, developmental editor are often the same thing.
00:31:31.762 --> 00:31:35.682
Acquiring editor, that means the editor that reads manuscripts as they come
00:31:35.682 --> 00:31:40.922
in and decides after they go through a lengthy process whether or not that this
00:31:40.922 --> 00:31:43.942
is a good fit for the publishing house and whether or not to offer you a contract.
00:31:44.747 --> 00:31:51.707
So those hats are often worn by one person. That's how it works with the publishers that I work with.
00:31:51.807 --> 00:31:55.667
The acquiring editor is the developmental editor is the copy editor.
00:31:55.787 --> 00:31:56.587
They're all the same person.
00:31:57.047 --> 00:32:01.967
So finally, working with a copy editor, if you've hired one individually,
00:32:02.047 --> 00:32:03.847
is working with a specialist.
00:32:04.207 --> 00:32:10.687
You want a copy editor that's familiar with your genre and the style guide that you're following.
00:32:10.827 --> 00:32:14.127
Now, if you are working with a publishing house, they will have their own style guide.
00:32:14.747 --> 00:32:19.607
And whether or not you like it, that is what will happen with your book.
00:32:19.707 --> 00:32:20.287
And I'll give you examples.
00:32:21.047 --> 00:32:27.087
Some houses, when you write the word T-shirt, it is spelled T-shirt.
00:32:27.747 --> 00:32:33.227
Some houses, they want you to write T-e-e-s-h-i-r-t, T-shirt.
00:32:33.567 --> 00:32:37.747
It's going to depend on their choices. It's going to depend on what that house uses.
00:32:37.747 --> 00:32:43.227
Uses some houses want you to write kneeled k-n-e-e-l-e-d
00:32:43.227 --> 00:32:46.007
for knelt because they don't use
00:32:46.007 --> 00:32:48.807
the word knelt it will depend on their
00:32:48.807 --> 00:32:52.987
style guide and if you are published with that house you will fix your manuscript
00:32:52.987 --> 00:32:57.327
your copy editor will make those corrections suggestions out to the side you
00:32:57.327 --> 00:33:02.087
will sign off on them because that's the style guide for the house and that's
00:33:02.087 --> 00:33:06.407
what you if you sign on with a publisher that's what you signed up for so you're
00:33:06.407 --> 00:33:08.167
not going to have a lot of that in your control.
00:33:08.567 --> 00:33:13.307
Now, if you have something that you have a request for, I don't like italics
00:33:13.307 --> 00:33:19.967
used in my documents because I had a reader tell me that italics are really hard for her.
00:33:20.067 --> 00:33:27.167
She uses text-to-speech, and italics are really hard for her text-to-speech program to understand.
00:33:27.907 --> 00:33:33.627
So with that in mind, I have reduced the use. I don't use italics in my books.
00:33:34.458 --> 00:33:38.658
If I can help it. But I always have to ask because most style guides want you
00:33:38.658 --> 00:33:42.238
to put internalized dialogue in italics.
00:33:42.478 --> 00:33:46.698
They want you to use words that are outside of the language the book is being
00:33:46.698 --> 00:33:48.838
published in, in italics.
00:33:48.958 --> 00:33:52.998
And usually after I've asked, and I'll say, can you please not do that because
00:33:52.998 --> 00:33:55.778
of these reasons, they usually will agree to that change.
00:33:56.018 --> 00:33:58.178
I've not had anybody refuse me yet.
00:33:58.678 --> 00:34:01.898
So, and again, I don't think it's all speech to text programs,
00:34:02.058 --> 00:34:05.838
but if it's even one and someone took the time to write to me and tell me that,
00:34:05.958 --> 00:34:10.518
I'd like to make my books as accessible as they can be for a wider audience of people.
00:34:10.778 --> 00:34:16.018
So that's what I have asked for. But again, I asked for it. I wasn't demanding
00:34:16.018 --> 00:34:17.318
because you can't demand.
00:34:17.538 --> 00:34:20.758
You've signed a contract with them. They have standards. They want all their
00:34:20.758 --> 00:34:21.998
books to look a certain way.
00:34:22.398 --> 00:34:26.118
So that's how it's going to look. Those things are out of your control.
00:34:26.838 --> 00:34:29.718
You want to polish your first draft.
00:34:30.938 --> 00:34:36.518
Again, copy editors, as acquiring editors, want to know that they're working
00:34:36.518 --> 00:34:43.738
with someone who at least takes the time to make their draft be as correct as it can be.
00:34:43.838 --> 00:34:46.778
Now, they're not expecting something that looks like it's already been to a
00:34:46.778 --> 00:34:49.078
copy editor, although they'd probably be a static.
00:34:49.198 --> 00:34:59.078
They expect it to be at least free of basic errors in spelling and in grammar and in spacing.
00:34:59.078 --> 00:35:07.938
If you look at any house that takes submissions and not requiring agented submissions.
00:35:08.518 --> 00:35:14.818
They will have very clearly stated how they want your manuscript to arrive to
00:35:14.818 --> 00:35:16.798
them. It will have a format.
00:35:16.998 --> 00:35:19.918
They will tell you what type to use a lot of times.
00:35:20.038 --> 00:35:24.098
They will tell you what point, what size type they want you to use.
00:35:24.098 --> 00:35:28.678
They will tell you whether they want the manuscript in the body of the email
00:35:28.678 --> 00:35:31.238
or if they want it as a separate document.
00:35:31.498 --> 00:35:35.518
They will tell you all of those things. They will tell you if they use what
00:35:35.518 --> 00:35:36.978
kind of style guide they use.
00:35:37.078 --> 00:35:42.918
If you are writing a nonfiction article and you're submitting it to a magazine,
00:35:43.118 --> 00:35:46.338
it will tell you what style they want, Chicago manual style,
00:35:46.738 --> 00:35:51.018
APA manual style, whatever. whatever, pay attention.
00:35:51.138 --> 00:35:58.418
The quickest way to hit the rejection pile is to not read the directions that
00:35:58.418 --> 00:36:00.918
are on the submission guidelines.
00:36:01.398 --> 00:36:07.778
And again, remember, most copy editors, most small houses work as acquiring editors.
00:36:07.998 --> 00:36:10.558
So this is your chance to make your first impression.
00:36:11.980 --> 00:36:18.700
If you don't understand something your copy editor has put in the margins of
00:36:18.700 --> 00:36:23.740
your manuscript or suggested that you do, you need to ask for clarification.
00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:26.960
And if you still don't understand, ask them to give you an example.
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:30.340
Don't ask them to rewrite your text. That's not their job.
00:36:30.520 --> 00:36:35.660
Their job is to make suggestions or to tell you how it would be written correctly, and then you fix it.
00:36:36.100 --> 00:36:39.620
You need to be patient with copy editing. It is a very long,
00:36:39.680 --> 00:36:44.640
tedious process. They are basically looking individually at every single word
00:36:44.640 --> 00:36:49.560
in your manuscript, as well as the manuscript as a whole at its cohesiveness.
00:36:49.860 --> 00:36:57.340
And that takes time. You can also make their job a lot easier after you've signed a contract.
00:36:57.340 --> 00:37:03.740
If you have written a fantasy novel, if you have written any novel where you
00:37:03.740 --> 00:37:06.960
have made up names for people, places, and things,
00:37:07.200 --> 00:37:09.860
you need to have a list that you
00:37:09.860 --> 00:37:12.920
also send your copy editor so that they know if
00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:18.900
you've spelled someone's name in a unique way that that is the spelling and
00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:24.640
not just a typo because that would be really aggravating to go through a manuscript
00:37:24.640 --> 00:37:27.420
and and have them correct something
00:37:27.420 --> 00:37:32.500
that you had spelled a certain way and wanted spelled a certain way.
00:37:32.780 --> 00:37:36.380
And they corrected it because to them it just looked like a typo.
00:37:36.460 --> 00:37:40.600
So keep that list. We talked about having that list, especially if you're writing
00:37:40.600 --> 00:37:44.180
fantasy, science fiction, paranormal, anything that you're making up names for things.
00:37:44.540 --> 00:37:47.760
Have the spelling. If it's not common words, have the spelling.
00:37:47.820 --> 00:37:50.600
Have a list of spelling that you can send to your copy editor.
00:37:50.740 --> 00:37:54.700
They will love you for that because then they don't have to message you back
00:37:54.700 --> 00:37:57.940
and forth and say, well, is it two A's or one A?
00:37:58.300 --> 00:38:03.420
Or where does the Z go? Or I've seen this spelled this way and this many ways
00:38:03.420 --> 00:38:07.120
in the manuscript, three different ways. Which of these do you want?
00:38:07.860 --> 00:38:12.620
So save yourself some time, save them some aggravation, and send that list once
00:38:12.620 --> 00:38:14.380
you've signed your contract with the manuscript.
00:38:15.590 --> 00:38:19.250
Don't argue with your editor, especially not your acquiring editor.
00:38:19.710 --> 00:38:24.630
They chose your book because they liked it and they wanted to publish it.
00:38:24.850 --> 00:38:29.490
So remember that in all your dealings. They saw something in your manuscript
00:38:29.490 --> 00:38:33.230
that they liked and they want to publish.
00:38:33.750 --> 00:38:39.070
So they're not coming at you from a negative place. where they are coming to
00:38:39.070 --> 00:38:43.170
you is from a place of wanting a manuscript
00:38:43.170 --> 00:38:48.430
that is polished and that best represents your publishing house.
00:38:48.750 --> 00:38:52.770
Nobody wants to publish a book that people go, oh my God, the editing in this is horrible.
00:38:53.210 --> 00:38:55.630
Nobody wants to publish that book.
00:38:56.150 --> 00:38:59.110
So remember, they come from that place.
00:38:59.610 --> 00:39:05.910
That said, they are not infallible. You may run into a situation where you've
00:39:05.910 --> 00:39:10.790
been assigned a copy editor who is not doing a particularly good job,
00:39:10.790 --> 00:39:12.790
in your opinion, with your manuscript.
00:39:12.990 --> 00:39:19.170
Some publishing houses have an option for you to contact the publisher directly
00:39:19.170 --> 00:39:22.110
and arbitrate that situation.
00:39:22.890 --> 00:39:26.850
Many do not, so you need to be prepared for that.
00:39:27.815 --> 00:39:32.455
Even if it's the worst experience of your life, you will learn something from
00:39:32.455 --> 00:39:33.895
it. I've not had that situation.
00:39:34.355 --> 00:39:39.715
I have had editors that were easy to work with, that we got along,
00:39:40.095 --> 00:39:43.735
that we understood each other, and I've really been fortunate in that way.
00:39:43.815 --> 00:39:47.155
I know people have had experiences where that's not been the case.
00:39:47.715 --> 00:39:51.115
Remember, you are in control. This is your manuscript.
00:39:51.275 --> 00:39:56.475
Even after you sign a contract, you are allowed to reject certain things,
00:39:56.555 --> 00:40:01.635
but you need to read your contract carefully because in some situations,
00:40:01.715 --> 00:40:05.135
if there is an impasse between you and the copy editor,
00:40:05.375 --> 00:40:09.135
the publishing house manager, the owner, will be the person who decides.
00:40:09.775 --> 00:40:14.495
They most often, unless you can make a very good argument about why something
00:40:14.495 --> 00:40:19.255
should be different, may side with their copy editor because the copy editor is a professional.
00:40:19.655 --> 00:40:23.135
So that's something you need to be aware of. If you sign with a publishing house,
00:40:23.235 --> 00:40:24.615
you lose a lot of control.
00:40:24.815 --> 00:40:28.515
There are many perks, in my opinion, in that I just want to write books.
00:40:28.615 --> 00:40:34.255
I don't want to have to be responsible for all of the other things that go into self-publishing.
00:40:34.495 --> 00:40:40.895
And I've self-published some of my work so I know what that is, what all those jobs are.
00:40:41.215 --> 00:40:45.695
At the end of the day, I just want to write books. I don't want to worry about the other stuff.
00:40:45.895 --> 00:40:49.995
I like working with editors, particularly because because I struggle a lot with
00:40:49.995 --> 00:40:53.715
structure and grammar beyond basic grammar.
00:40:54.035 --> 00:40:56.175
So I appreciate my editor.
00:40:56.515 --> 00:41:00.735
That may not be the case for you. You may love the control and the work that
00:41:00.735 --> 00:41:02.695
goes into being an indie published author.
00:41:03.015 --> 00:41:06.475
And I have a lot of indie published people that I read that I love their books.
00:41:06.615 --> 00:41:09.955
I am always amazed at how well they do all of those jobs.
00:41:10.195 --> 00:41:14.815
For me, it's not a good fit for a number of reasons. Being NeuroSpicy is one of them.
00:41:15.235 --> 00:41:17.955
It's hard for me to focus sometimes and pay attention to detail,
00:41:18.215 --> 00:41:22.115
and all of those things that I appreciate a good copy editor will do.
00:41:22.815 --> 00:41:28.575
So review the changes that your copy editor sends you very, very carefully.
00:41:29.055 --> 00:41:32.315
If you come to an impasse, remember you can appeal to your publisher,
00:41:32.375 --> 00:41:35.935
but in most cases the publisher will go with what the copy editor suggests and
00:41:35.935 --> 00:41:39.675
what their house style is. So that's a big one right there.
00:41:40.115 --> 00:41:45.915
If you're hiring a copy editor on your own, budget accordingly. They are expensive.
00:41:46.955 --> 00:41:48.995
Don't waste their time by sending
00:41:48.995 --> 00:41:53.335
them a manuscript that is full of crap that you could fix yourself.
00:41:53.815 --> 00:41:59.255
If you don't send them misspellings and basic grammar mistakes,
00:41:59.775 --> 00:42:02.455
you're wasting your money, okay?
00:42:02.795 --> 00:42:05.955
Send them as As clean a copy as you can.
00:42:06.135 --> 00:42:12.115
Do the best you can do with what you have and then trust them with the other part of it.
00:42:12.235 --> 00:42:16.155
And remember, like I said, they're expensive. So budget accordingly for that.
00:42:17.093 --> 00:42:20.173
And the biggest thing when working with any of these people,
00:42:20.273 --> 00:42:26.633
beta readers, developmental editors, and copy editors, keep a backup copy of
00:42:26.633 --> 00:42:30.293
your original manuscript someplace safe.
00:42:31.233 --> 00:42:34.693
Your hard drive and the cloud, somewhere in the cloud.
00:42:34.853 --> 00:42:39.533
I have friends that email themselves a copy of their original manuscripts.
00:42:40.033 --> 00:42:44.033
Because your editor may have a computer disaster.
00:42:44.433 --> 00:42:48.813
Anybody can can have a computer disaster. And if the only copy,
00:42:48.873 --> 00:42:51.573
the only original copy existed with them,
00:42:51.853 --> 00:42:57.113
which would be hard to imagine, but I have seen people where their computers
00:42:57.113 --> 00:43:03.393
had a disaster and they've lost all of their original copies of everything.
00:43:03.813 --> 00:43:07.473
And the only people who had original copies were their editors.
00:43:07.853 --> 00:43:11.713
But it's not the original copy anymore because the copy editor is not necessarily
00:43:11.713 --> 00:43:14.933
going to save it in its original form. They're going to save the final all copy.
00:43:15.293 --> 00:43:20.793
So do yourself a favor, save those original copies in someplace safe.
00:43:20.873 --> 00:43:22.753
Make backups as you work.
00:43:22.973 --> 00:43:26.813
I do, I work in Scrivener, which has a daily backup, which means I can always
00:43:26.813 --> 00:43:29.773
revert to the day before if there's some kind of glitch.
00:43:29.893 --> 00:43:33.733
I backup things to the cloud and I also have, of course, my hard drive backup.
00:43:34.133 --> 00:43:38.013
So that's my last and number one thing to tell you.
00:43:38.033 --> 00:43:40.533
If you don't do anything else, you don't take anything else away from today's
00:43:40.533 --> 00:43:43.273
podcast, backup your original manuscript.
00:43:43.533 --> 00:43:47.793
So that's going to be it for me today for best practices for working with beta
00:43:47.793 --> 00:43:49.933
readers, copy editors, and developmental editors.
00:43:50.233 --> 00:43:53.593
You want to build strong relationships with your revision team.
00:43:53.913 --> 00:43:59.893
It goes a long way to helping you create the best manuscript you can and the
00:43:59.893 --> 00:44:03.773
best possible version that you can imagine.
00:44:04.333 --> 00:44:08.913
So remember, each stage of the editing process, serves a unique purpose,
00:44:09.073 --> 00:44:11.433
and embrace that journey of improvement.
00:44:11.533 --> 00:44:16.193
It can be hard. And like I said, rejection sensitivity dysphoria can really
00:44:16.193 --> 00:44:20.373
kick your butt when it comes to this kind of revision.
00:44:21.532 --> 00:44:27.352
Make a plan to address that. Make a plan for dealing with those feelings.
00:44:27.672 --> 00:44:31.032
Whether you're just starting out or you're an experienced writer,
00:44:31.232 --> 00:44:32.752
there's always room for growth.
00:44:33.652 --> 00:44:39.192
Making your next book better than the last one should be on every writer's to-do list.
00:44:39.592 --> 00:44:42.572
If you found these tips helpful, don't forget to subscribe.
00:44:42.832 --> 00:44:46.192
Please leave me a review. It really helps to get the podcast in front of more
00:44:46.192 --> 00:44:52.752
people. So until next time, keep writing, keep revising, and take care of yourself. so.
00:44:53.072 --> 00:44:56.512
Thanks for tuning in to Writing While Distracted, where we navigate the winding
00:44:56.512 --> 00:44:58.932
roads of creativity amidst the chaos of distraction.
00:44:59.512 --> 00:45:02.872
If you've enjoyed this podcast and found it useful, share it and tag me.
00:45:03.332 --> 00:45:06.352
DM me and let me know what you found to be the most helpful.
00:45:06.652 --> 00:45:10.092
Please leave a review. It really helps get the podcast in front of more folks.
00:45:10.432 --> 00:45:14.192
Remember, in the dance between focus and diversion, every stumble is a step
00:45:14.192 --> 00:45:15.832
closer to mastering the art of writing.
00:45:16.092 --> 00:45:18.512
Join me in the next podcast. Join us next time as we continue to unravel the
00:45:18.512 --> 00:45:19.712
mysteries of the writer's mind.
00:45:19.972 --> 00:45:25.352
Until then, keep writing, keep wandering, and embrace the distractions that fuel your creativity.
00:45:25.752 --> 00:45:27.912
Stay tuned. Stay inspired.
00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:42.726
Music.