Writers Talk - Award Winning Authors - Dick Belsky & Charles Salzberg - host Marsha Casper Cook

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Good morning everybody it's Marsha Casper Cook and I have
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two guys here that are so talented that I'm not
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going to waste my time with myself because everybody I'm
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just Marsha Cook I'm a author screenwriter podcast host this
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is a second career for me like everybody else on
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the show and so we all started in a different
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way but these guys are great we have Dick Belsky
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and we have Charles Salzberg who has never been on
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before welcome Charles you've.
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Never been thank you I've heard about it for so
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many years. Thank you for inviting me. Well, that's good.
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I've been doing this for so many years. Too many
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to count.
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Okay.
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Tell us about yourself, Charles, so everybody can hear what
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you do. Because you have quite a... I looked at
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your website.
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Oh, my God. You've done a lot of things. Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It doesn't seem like it because I'm incredibly lazy. But...
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And I hate talking about myself. I started off... I
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was an English major in college, which prepared me for
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absolutely nothing in the world.
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And.
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I even had a year of law school up in Boston,
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which I hated with a passion. And then I stumbled
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into a job at New York Magazine in the mailroom
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during the heyday of that magazine. Clay Felker, who invented
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the City Magazine, he was the editor-in-chief. And so Dick
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went into newspapers, and I wound up in magazines. Yeah.
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I was asked to do a book, ghostwrite a book.
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So I started writing nonfiction books. But in my heart,
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I was always a fiction writer.
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I'm going to add something because you said just magazines.
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You know, magazines were very big. Magazines were really big. Now,
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people don't read magazines. I still get some magazines because
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I do like the pictures and not online. So years ago,
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it was not easy to get in a magazine.
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No, it wasn't. It wasn't easy to get in anything. Yeah,
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I was very lucky. And you're right, magazines, I read
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them as a kid. Esquire, you know, New Yorker, as
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a kid. And so I never wanted to be a journalist, though.
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And I just, I needed a job. And someone said,
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this mailroom job is available. And so I took it.
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And I thought, oh, I'll never forget. Clay had that
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magazine as if it were a newspaper, because he was
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a newspaper man, which is really funny. Dick is, is
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coming from. And so, um, there were no offices. It
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was one enormous room of desks, no cubicles. Um, I
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don't know how anyone got any work one done. And
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my job was to sort the mail with another guy
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who was a PhD college professor who'd been laid off.
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And I'd go to the desk of all the writers
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and editors and drop off their mail. And that was,
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that was my job. And, and so I got to
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see how a magazine worked. Um, But I grew up
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in New York, so I'm very jealous of Dick's career
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as a newspaper journalist because those were the papers I
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read and still read.
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Yeah.
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Well, you know, it's twofold. I was listening to you
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talking about the magazines, and some of the ones you
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didn't mention was like Time and Newsweek. I mean, when
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I was a newspaper guy.
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But they had their own staff, though, Dick. You couldn't freelance.
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But that's what.
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But no, no, no.
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But but that's what everybody. That was the ideal job
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if you could get it because they. Yeah. Yeah. And
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I I remember I interviewed for both places, never got that,
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never got the job. I would have left and taken
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it if I got it.
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Was this right after that you were doing this or.
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Oh, no. When I was when I was when I
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was at the post and, you know, we were going
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through strikes and things like that. And I thought. Wow,
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you know, working for Time or Newsweek and everybody, you know,
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I mean, it's not like now. Everybody got their news
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every week. You got all this stuff.
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Right, right.
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And the other thing is, I'm not sure exactly what
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time period he's talking about, but, you know, New York Magazine,
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I mean, just everybody, you know, it just mattered, writers there.
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And then you had the newspapers, you had the Post
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and the News and the Times. And it certainly was
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a different time. And like Charles said, we were both
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lucky enough to be a part of it. It's just
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we worked in different areas. Right.
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It wasn't easy at all, at all, to get in
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any of that.
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And so the good thing, you know, what you're saying, Charles,
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is I think kids now, they don't realize you took
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a job in the mailroom. OK, and a lot of
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people would not do that.
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Right, right.
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They want to start out differently.
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Yeah, I get a kick out of the kids who
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are in their 20s who are lamenting they can't buy
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a house. I was lucky I could pay my rent,
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you know, much less. And it wasn't like they paid
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a lot. But being in the way New York was
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set up, being in the mailroom was the perfect spot
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because a shortcut from the elevators into the main room
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was through the mailroom. So all these great writers that
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Dick was talking about, many of them who came from newspapers,
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because that was Clay's thing, you know, Pete Hamill, you know,
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the critics like John Simon, you know, all of them
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would come through the mailroom and they'd stop and chat
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with us. So I actually got an opportunity to meet
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a lot of these newspaper guys who then were writing
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for magazines.
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Yeah.
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I mean, that really is, you know, I mean, sometimes
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you do have to start in the bottom and to
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go up, you know, and sometimes if you're really smart,
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you can go up very fast, but you just got
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to get in the door.
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What was your first job?
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Dick, what was your first job in newspapers here? I, I,
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I started at the bottom in a sense too, you know,
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in newspapers, you start smaller papers and I worked my
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very first job in newspapers. I took a job after
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college as the editor of a weekly paper in Teaneck
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called the Teaneck Sun. And I'm proud to say that
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within like probably less than a month I was fired.
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So it was not an auspicious way to begin my career.
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I probably had it coming, but because I was very,
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you know, you're very cocky and smart and you think
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you're going to do that. And then I worked at
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a couple of New Jersey papers, one in Wayne and
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one in Morristown. And then I got a call for
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employment from an organization called the U.S. Army. And I
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was going to say no, but they said, no, you know,
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you can't say no. An offer I couldn't refuse called
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the draft.
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You can say something like, oh, the timing isn't right
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quite now.
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Yeah, I'm not a prominent person for this job.
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I'm too busy. I'm too busy now.
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Yeah, yeah. Here's son, take a rifle and go to Vietnam.
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But seriously, so times were different then, though, in the
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sense that it may have been a lot easier to
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get a job. So when I got out of the Army,
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I decided I either wanted to, I eventually wanted to
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go back to Ohio, where I was from, which I
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never did. But I decided I wanted to work in
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a big city. So I went to L.A., Washington, and
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New York and literally just walked in places and asked
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for jobs. And I got job offers everywhere. And one
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of them turned out to be in the New York Post.
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And my first job offer there was they said to me, well,
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we need somebody to work the police shack. Do you
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know how to work the– do you have experience in
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the police shack? I said, oh, yeah. Great position. I'd
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never been to a post check in my life. I
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had no idea what you did. Always say yes. That's
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my version of what Charles was saying.
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Dick, you have to explain what the post was like
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then because it was totally different from what it was now.
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I grew up reading it. It was left wing. It
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was totally different.
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A lot of people don't really realize if you weren't...
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I was there with during the Dolly Schiff era, the
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early seventies, when you're right, it was the, it was
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called like the, the, the upper West side Jewish paper.
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That was what it catered to, you know, like a
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liberal crowd, very Jewish owned by Dolly Schiff, a woman
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owner who'd owned it for years. Um, and then of
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course it got taken over by Rupert Murdoch and became
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very conservative. But what a lot of people don't realize
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is they think, Oh, with Dolly Schiff, it was a
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very sane, responsible paper, but it was crazy as hell
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there too, you know? And, um, The reason that I
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actually wound up at the Post was I was in Vietnam.
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And this is one of the cleverest things. I don't
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know if you ever did anything quite as clever as this, Charles.
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You've done a lot of clever things. I've done a
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lot of stupid things, too. Well, yeah. I try to
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talk about this. But I was in Vietnam. And I'm
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sitting in my barracks or bunker or whatever we call them.
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The hooch, I think they call them. But I'm getting stuff.
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I'm getting magazines and papers. And I get this magazine article.
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I don't know where. It could have been in New York.
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It could have been something. And it was all about
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the Dolly shift post and what a crazy place it was.
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And it was basically like just a lot of negative
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stuff about how the city room was a mess. It
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was filthy. The people were crazy. It was a horrible
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place to work. You know, it was like the third
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paper and out of three in New York and, and
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everything bad about it. And I decided, well, you know,
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this place might be willing to hire me. So I
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wrote a, I wrote a letter from Vietnam to the
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editor of the paper, a man named Paul San. And
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I just literally laid it all out. And I said,
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I said, I'm in Vietnam. I don't know if I'm
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going to come back. You know, my life's on the
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line here, but the one thing that could help me
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would be if I knew when I came back that
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I had a job interview.
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That was shameless.
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And he wrote me back. and he said, yeah, of course.
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And so I went, and I got a job. So
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I was always very proud of that. I felt I
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could use my Vietnam experience in that way.
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Well, I would say so, though, because that was an experience.
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Yes. Yeah, yeah, we could do many shows talking about
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my Vietnam experience. Although I will say this, and this
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is going a little different direction. I had a commanding
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officer in Vietnam who was a major at the time,
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wound up being a colonel. He and I are still
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very good friends, like 60 years later. He lives down
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in North Carolina. And amazingly, Charles, you might get a
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kick out of this, I was, he started reading my
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books and I did Zoom with a bookstore in Pittsburgh,
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I think it was one day. And you could see,
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you know, there were different fans on the Zoom thing.
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And he, somebody, his name was Lawrence Fulton and somebody,
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and I hadn't seen this guy in 60 years. And
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so one of these fans said to me, hey, Dick,
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I just read your book. It's Larry. And I'm like, Larry, who?
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And it was from Andy Watson from Vietnam, like a
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half century later. who wound up at one of my
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book parties having read my book. So that was really
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kind of cool.
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That's exciting, though, because you never know, because when he
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knew you, you weren't doing this.
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No, I was not writing novels in Vietnam.
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Exactly.
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What Dick didn't tell you, too, is that he mentioned
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the editor Paul Sand. Paul Sand was also the author
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of a book about Dutch Schultz. So he must have been...
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seeped in the crime area. And the one quote I
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love about the New York Post of those days is
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Jack Newfield, who became a really big political columnist and
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all that, as a kid wrote the newspaper. He said,
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I love your paper, the New York Post. I read
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it every day. Too bad your copy editors don't. Because
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it was known for all these errors. It was kind
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of a shoddy thing. But I read it every day.
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Yeah, and what the Post always had in both areas,
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they had it with Murdoch and also with Dollar Shippers,
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they always had the must-read columnist that you wanted.
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Murray Kempton with Venus.
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Well, Murray worked in a couple places, but Pete Hamill
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was the big one. So the Daily News, I mean,
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they would move around, and I know when I lived,
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before I worked at the paper, you'd get the papers,
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and More than anything, you'd turn to Jimmy Breslin in
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the news. You'd turn to Pete Hamill in the Post.
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And then you had all the other ones, too, like
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Earl Wilson's celebrity and Susie and everybody in my neighborhood.
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I was going to say, I hope you're building. Yeah,
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I think they're coming for me. There was just all
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this must-read stuff that you did. And then, of course,
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you got to know that. I mean, I didn't know.
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I never knew. I never really knew Breslin because, oh,
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he did give me an author book once. But but
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I got to know Pete, you know, got to work
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with him and people like that. And that was one
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of the great things about in New York that I
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don't know if it's true in any place else. I mean,
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you're working with just these legendary people. I mean, I
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work with Murray. I work with. Yeah, well, I work
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with so so many so many people. And you just,
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just being around him is, is, and I'm sure Charles,
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you've had some of the same, it's just cool working
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in the same room with these people and seeing them.
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Absolutely.
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That's how you learn too.
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You learn from other people too, you know, and you watch,
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I think that's, that's important. We could all learn how to,
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you know, it's good to learn from whoever you can
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learn from, no matter what jobs you've had. And that's
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why all the, things that we've done in the past,
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like you guys have done a lot of things that
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00:14:00.809 --> 00:14:01.789
helps in your writing.
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Absolutely.
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00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:07.080
Oh, absolutely. You know, I think we've talked about this,
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00:14:07.139 --> 00:14:10.240
but it's like, I think I mentioned, I may have
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00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:14.409
mentioned this when I did your book event. I, I
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wound up, I wind up interviewing a lot of authors for,
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you know, a couple of things, the big thrills, some things.
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And I've interviewed a lot of them who were newspaper people,
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you know, Michael Conley, Mike Lupica, Riley Sager, Gillian Flynn.
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I mean, she worked in Entertainment Weekly. And pretty much
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everybody that you ask says that they probably couldn't write
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novels if they hadn't done journalism first, because you learn
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I mean, the number one thing you do is you
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learn to just sit down and write and not worry
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about it, not think about it, not wait to see,
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you know. But, you know, and I just recently talked
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to Mike Lupica, who writes the, now writes with James Patterson,
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but of course is a legendary New York City columnist.
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And he basically said, he said, yeah, I'm like, and
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I know Charles doesn't, always talks about how he doesn't
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do this but i'm i'm more this way which is
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lupus i get out of bed in the morning i
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start writing because that's what i know it's what i've
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done all my life you know he does it with
301
00:15:10.549 --> 00:15:13.190
fiction the same way he did it with non-fiction.
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00:15:14.610 --> 00:15:18.330
Yeah yeah well i just i really i admire people
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00:15:18.370 --> 00:15:22.340
like um like i'm just the opposite i'm really lazy
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00:15:22.980 --> 00:15:26.029
and so um Writing for me is out of guilt.
305
00:15:26.169 --> 00:15:29.850
That guilt will get me to the computer. And people
306
00:15:29.929 --> 00:15:31.970
say to me, my friends say to me, what do
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you mean you're lazy? You've done like 40, 50 books,
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00:15:35.659 --> 00:15:38.940
including the nonfiction and the fiction. And I'll say, you know,
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00:15:39.100 --> 00:15:41.799
I'm a really fast typist. I can type 90 words
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a minute. And I can focus when I sit down.
311
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But people like Dick treat it like a job, which
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00:15:49.539 --> 00:15:50.320
is a good thing.
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00:15:52.029 --> 00:15:53.830
I have a lot of authors on that do that.
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You know, they, you know, I, I'm not that person,
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00:15:57.029 --> 00:15:59.889
but they, they're very, you know, I, I could sit
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00:15:59.909 --> 00:16:02.370
down and write for a long time, but I think
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that a lot of people do like Dick does. I mean,
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00:16:05.669 --> 00:16:07.730
I have several women that have been on the show
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telling they have like 150 books because that's all they
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do is write. I mean, they, they just sit down
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and write eight hours straight.
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00:16:16.309 --> 00:16:18.960
Yeah. I don't, I don't do that. I, I, I
323
00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:21.389
find in, uh, I find that's kind of got a
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limit in terms of, you know, writing. And I don't,
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I'm not one of the people that does word counts
326
00:16:26.019 --> 00:16:30.840
or anything like that. Do you work weekends?
327
00:16:31.019 --> 00:16:34.519
Do you work weekends or do you take off? I mean,
328
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I don't, I mean, yeah.
329
00:16:36.980 --> 00:16:39.120
And, and when I worked full time, weekends were a
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00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:41.559
good time to work because I had more time, you know, uh,
331
00:16:41.980 --> 00:16:45.879
I wrote a lot of my books, uh, um, and I, you,
332
00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:48.179
you probably did some of this too, Charles, but I
333
00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:50.600
wrote a lot of my books when I was working
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full time and I would be, I mean, I would
335
00:16:53.629 --> 00:16:55.990
be working 10, 11 hours a day in a newsroom,
336
00:16:56.350 --> 00:16:59.789
but I would still write the books. And, and for me,
337
00:17:00.049 --> 00:17:02.509
people would say, well, you're writing all day. How can
338
00:17:02.529 --> 00:17:03.929
you do that? And I said, no, it's a completely
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00:17:03.970 --> 00:17:08.599
different thing. It's different. Oh, absolutely. I'm chasing stories and fiction.
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00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:11.539
I'm making it up. And, uh, and I enjoyed it.
341
00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:13.279
It was, it was a nice, uh, it was a
342
00:17:13.339 --> 00:17:16.420
nice change of pace, but no, I don't. And now,
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00:17:16.509 --> 00:17:19.230
I mean, because I don't work full time, I'm weekends
344
00:17:19.250 --> 00:17:21.049
just like any other, any other. Yeah.
345
00:17:22.849 --> 00:17:25.009
But you sometimes go away for the summer, you know,
346
00:17:25.369 --> 00:17:27.569
don't you do that? You know, you go away and
347
00:17:27.589 --> 00:17:28.609
then you write when.
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00:17:28.509 --> 00:17:30.900
You go away. I, yeah, that, that was always a
349
00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:33.220
big thing when, especially when I was working, I would
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00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:35.599
go away for like a couple of weeks to get
351
00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:38.880
caught or somewhere. And I would literally try and turn
352
00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:41.789
out a chapter a day, uh, I'm just one of
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00:17:41.829 --> 00:17:44.539
those people, and there's a lot of people, writers too,
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00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:47.539
who are very good writers, but they don't particularly enjoy
355
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the writing part. They enjoy the rest of it. They
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00:17:49.900 --> 00:17:53.319
enjoy the results. I like writing.
357
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I love writing.
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00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:59.049
I like writing because I like when I get that
359
00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:01.880
aha moment where you find something and you go, oh,
360
00:18:01.930 --> 00:18:02.849
I didn't even know that.
361
00:18:03.130 --> 00:18:04.970
And I go, this is good.
362
00:18:05.109 --> 00:18:08.710
And when that happens, that's like the greatest feeling that
363
00:18:08.789 --> 00:18:11.779
you can have is that something that you didn't know
364
00:18:12.140 --> 00:18:16.220
just happened and then you're happy. That makes me happy
365
00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:19.079
when something I didn't know about my characters just comes out.
366
00:18:19.579 --> 00:18:20.240
Oh yeah.
367
00:18:20.619 --> 00:18:22.660
This is a good day. It's a good day.
368
00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.240
But you know, you know, you know, talking about that.
369
00:18:25.309 --> 00:18:28.289
And I, I, I don't know when you, well, I
370
00:18:28.289 --> 00:18:30.190
think you, you, you've talked about this too, how you
371
00:18:30.210 --> 00:18:34.369
started running crime. When I was in college and when
372
00:18:34.430 --> 00:18:37.160
I was, you know, starting out at the Post and everything.
373
00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:41.960
I never aspired to be a mystery or thriller writer.
374
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I don't think I even read many mysteries or thrillers.
375
00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:51.089
That wasn't my thing. I wanted to write articles. I
376
00:18:51.140 --> 00:18:55.690
wanted to be a nonfiction freelance person, do stuff. And
377
00:18:55.750 --> 00:18:57.930
when and I read some short stories. I remember I
378
00:18:57.950 --> 00:19:00.049
got into like Ring Lardner and people like that, but
379
00:19:00.210 --> 00:19:02.369
I didn't, I didn't really relate to it. And I
380
00:19:02.410 --> 00:19:04.609
don't know how that happened. You know, uh, well, I
381
00:19:04.650 --> 00:19:06.430
know how it happened actually, because I picked up a
382
00:19:06.470 --> 00:19:08.839
copy of Raymond Chandler's The Big Sleep and I read
383
00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:12.339
that and I said, wow, maybe I could write something
384
00:19:12.420 --> 00:19:15.380
like that. And of course, no one can ever write
385
00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:18.380
like Raymond Chandler, but, but I, I tried a very
386
00:19:18.420 --> 00:19:21.539
bad version of a, of a newspaper reporter. And, uh,
387
00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:24.099
that got me into it. And so I've been doing
388
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:25.859
it ever since, but you know, again, it's not like,
389
00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:28.140
it's not like I started out saying, I want to
390
00:19:28.180 --> 00:19:30.819
write these kinds of books, but, but, but I've been
391
00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:31.880
doing it now for quite a while.
392
00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:35.640
But you write, you know, you, you have characters that
393
00:19:35.829 --> 00:19:40.130
are long standing characters. So, and I think that, I
394
00:19:40.170 --> 00:19:44.089
think Charles does too, because don't you have the swans?
395
00:19:44.250 --> 00:19:50.119
I do have the swans. Yeah. And people will ask me,
396
00:19:50.140 --> 00:19:53.200
like my most recent book, I've had six or seven
397
00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:56.500
people ask me, oh, there's going to be a sequel, right? Well,
398
00:19:56.619 --> 00:19:59.380
not one of my books, including the swan book, did
399
00:19:59.420 --> 00:20:01.680
I ever have it in mind to write more than one.
400
00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:01.920
Right.
401
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:02.640
Yeah.
402
00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:04.140
It just happened.
403
00:20:04.819 --> 00:20:11.799
Right. I always tell this story that when I sold
404
00:20:11.859 --> 00:20:15.259
my first Claire Carlson book, I mean, that was supposed
405
00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:18.180
to be a standalone because there's a real story arc
406
00:20:18.259 --> 00:20:20.420
in that involving her as a person and it all
407
00:20:20.460 --> 00:20:22.680
comes to an conclusion at the end. And I never
408
00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:25.359
in a million years thought of it as a, it
409
00:20:25.420 --> 00:20:30.380
was just a book, a thriller. And my agent at
410
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:33.750
the time sold it to Ocean View Publishing and And
411
00:20:33.829 --> 00:20:39.130
the woman who ran Ocean View, Pat Goosen, called me
412
00:20:39.190 --> 00:20:42.890
up afterwards and said, we love the book, but we're
413
00:20:42.910 --> 00:20:44.529
going to change the title. And the title at the
414
00:20:44.569 --> 00:20:46.369
time was, I think, Forget Me Not. And she said,
415
00:20:46.390 --> 00:20:49.950
we're going to change it to Yesterday's News because that
416
00:20:50.009 --> 00:20:53.990
way it'll go into the media idea for the other
417
00:20:54.029 --> 00:20:58.299
books in the series. And, of course, I said, what series?
418
00:20:59.420 --> 00:21:01.900
And she said, well, you're planning to write more books
419
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:05.259
with this character for it, aren't you? And I'm proud
420
00:21:05.299 --> 00:21:08.819
to say, without hesitation, I went, yep, oh, of course, absolutely, whatever.
421
00:21:09.460 --> 00:21:11.460
And I called my agent and I said, do you
422
00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:13.779
know they want to do a series with this? She said, no.
423
00:21:13.940 --> 00:21:16.039
I said, well, they do. And that's how the series
424
00:21:16.059 --> 00:21:18.859
was born. But I think... I think there's a lot
425
00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.150
of things like, like Charles said, like you don't necessarily,
426
00:21:22.170 --> 00:21:23.769
I'll have people say to me, Oh, I want to
427
00:21:23.849 --> 00:21:26.730
write a series. Well, you don't, you don't write a series.
428
00:21:26.769 --> 00:21:27.869
You write a book, you know?
429
00:21:27.910 --> 00:21:28.309
Right.
430
00:21:28.569 --> 00:21:31.910
And, and then maybe, maybe that book, uh, maybe that
431
00:21:31.950 --> 00:21:36.200
book turns into a series. Uh, uh, you know, unless, unless, uh,
432
00:21:37.349 --> 00:21:39.049
unless you kill the character off at the.
433
00:21:40.029 --> 00:21:40.869
Well, when they.
434
00:21:40.730 --> 00:21:42.819
Come back and talk to you, then you go like, oh,
435
00:21:42.859 --> 00:21:44.819
I'm not done with them, you know, and that's some
436
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:45.380
of the things.
437
00:21:45.700 --> 00:21:48.359
Listen, I think it was, I want to say Jeffrey Deaver,
438
00:21:48.380 --> 00:21:51.200
but somebody like that told the story about some character,
439
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:54.099
series character he had that kept recurring. Maybe it was
440
00:21:54.119 --> 00:21:57.119
somebody else, somebody that had a series, famous author, and
441
00:21:57.140 --> 00:21:59.160
they planned to kill the character off at the end
442
00:21:59.180 --> 00:22:02.150
of the first book, and they basically liked the character
443
00:22:02.190 --> 00:22:06.150
so much they kept them and turned it into a series. Yeah. Yeah.
444
00:22:07.609 --> 00:22:10.210
I think that's one of the things that, you know,
445
00:22:10.309 --> 00:22:12.430
you just don't know. And that's what makes it very
446
00:22:12.450 --> 00:22:15.529
exciting to write because you actually don't know everything you're
447
00:22:15.549 --> 00:22:17.490
going to do next, you know.
448
00:22:17.730 --> 00:22:19.490
And so it's fun.
449
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:22.640
I mean, once the fun goes out of it, I
450
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:25.039
don't know that you can be a good writer because
451
00:22:25.099 --> 00:22:28.740
if you're not enjoying it, I don't think that's something
452
00:22:28.809 --> 00:22:31.069
you should do because it comes out in your work
453
00:22:31.150 --> 00:22:33.029
that you just kind of rushed it through or you
454
00:22:33.069 --> 00:22:38.109
didn't put your characters in situations. I'm big on characters
455
00:22:38.130 --> 00:22:40.730
because I like my characters. I'm always thinking about them
456
00:22:40.829 --> 00:22:43.329
even if they're gone. Even if they're gone.
457
00:22:44.410 --> 00:22:48.769
I have made this point because I really feel this way.
458
00:22:49.210 --> 00:22:51.410
To me, the character is more important than the story.
459
00:22:51.509 --> 00:22:57.480
If I like a character, I will read the book
460
00:22:57.539 --> 00:23:00.329
even if the story is not great. If I'm bored
461
00:23:00.369 --> 00:23:02.250
by the character, even if it's a pretty good story,
462
00:23:02.269 --> 00:23:04.130
I'm probably not. And, you know, the funny thing is
463
00:23:04.170 --> 00:23:06.690
some of the greats, I mean, I'm one of the
464
00:23:06.730 --> 00:23:09.329
greatest Robert P. Parker fans ever.
465
00:23:09.369 --> 00:23:10.609
I've read one.
466
00:23:10.529 --> 00:23:13.170
Of the Spencer books. I mean, the truth is those
467
00:23:13.210 --> 00:23:16.019
stories aren't great. It's basically you love Spencer, you know,
468
00:23:16.220 --> 00:23:17.420
and you follow him through the thing.
469
00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:18.619
He's a great character.
470
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:22.059
And the truth of the matter is if you go
471
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:25.519
back and read them now, the Philip Marlowe, Raymond Chandler
472
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:27.720
books sort of fall in that same category. I mean,
473
00:23:27.740 --> 00:23:29.819
a lot of those stories are very convoluted. They don't
474
00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:32.740
make a lot of sense. You're not really reading it
475
00:23:32.809 --> 00:23:35.410
for the story. You're reading it for the, the writing
476
00:23:35.470 --> 00:23:38.930
and the character. And so to me, that's, that, that's,
477
00:23:39.089 --> 00:23:42.109
that's what I'm, what I'm, what I'm working for, which is,
478
00:23:42.549 --> 00:23:45.049
you know, just, and I just assume a lot of
479
00:23:45.089 --> 00:23:47.269
readers feel the same way. They, you know, they like
480
00:23:47.289 --> 00:23:50.369
the character, like people say that they like, or they
481
00:23:50.390 --> 00:23:54.259
like Clark Carlson and they don't, They don't so much
482
00:23:54.299 --> 00:23:56.599
come to me and say, oh, that was an interesting story.
483
00:23:56.940 --> 00:23:59.680
They go, oh, I like, you know, I love Claire.
484
00:23:59.940 --> 00:24:03.319
People can't even tell you, Dick, people don't remember storylines,
485
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:06.089
but they remember characters. So what are they like, more
486
00:24:06.119 --> 00:24:09.589
than a dozen Reacher books? I dare anyone to tell
487
00:24:09.690 --> 00:24:13.569
me what the, you know, the plot of each individual
488
00:24:13.589 --> 00:24:16.630
book is. People read it, the readers go back because
489
00:24:16.670 --> 00:24:20.349
they like Jack Reacher, right? I mean, that's, I totally agree.
490
00:24:21.460 --> 00:24:21.880
Yeah.
491
00:24:22.430 --> 00:24:25.289
But you know, who's an exception to that? I think who,
492
00:24:25.369 --> 00:24:27.650
who I think does a pretty amazing job of being
493
00:24:27.670 --> 00:24:30.369
a great character, which is a couple, but you know,
494
00:24:30.609 --> 00:24:33.509
is Michael Conley with Harry Bosch because the Harry Bosch books,
495
00:24:34.089 --> 00:24:36.869
Bosch is a great, obviously a great character, but those
496
00:24:36.930 --> 00:24:40.269
books are really smart stories too and plots. And, uh,
497
00:24:41.529 --> 00:24:43.869
So I think that's one of the few I've read
498
00:24:44.309 --> 00:24:47.029
where everything sort of comes together. And again, I'm another
499
00:24:47.049 --> 00:24:50.130
one of these people, probably like you, when you find somebody.
500
00:24:50.410 --> 00:24:53.680
I've read every Michael Connolly book and every Robert Parker book.
501
00:24:53.779 --> 00:24:57.519
And so, you know, so I have.
502
00:24:57.539 --> 00:25:01.980
Dick Connolly, because I've read a little, but not anywhere
503
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.410
near as much as you. Has he... Over the years,
504
00:25:05.490 --> 00:25:07.890
did he change as a writer? Did he mature as
505
00:25:07.930 --> 00:25:09.910
a writer? Is he the same writer he was when
506
00:25:09.930 --> 00:25:11.240
he worked on the early books?
507
00:25:12.460 --> 00:25:15.319
Well, one of the... I mean, no, of course he changed.
508
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.660
Number one, he has more characters. He's got the Lincoln lawyer,
509
00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:20.660
and then he's got now the Ballard, the woman cop.
510
00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:24.549
And this is an interesting thing. I mean, neither you
511
00:25:24.609 --> 00:25:27.390
and I have ever been in this situation. But I mean,
512
00:25:27.410 --> 00:25:30.109
that series has been around since the early 90s, the
513
00:25:30.130 --> 00:25:36.359
Bosch stuff. And... Bosch ages sort of in real time.
514
00:25:36.740 --> 00:25:39.039
And Bosch is now this old guy, and that's why
515
00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:40.819
he doesn't do a lot of Bosch, because Bosch is
516
00:25:40.859 --> 00:25:45.500
like this retired old guy. And that's not true so
517
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:51.960
much of Spencer, because Spencer is still beating people up
518
00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:57.789
50 years later. And I spoke to Michael Conley about this.
519
00:25:59.539 --> 00:26:03.259
and I think I spoke to Lupica who wrote Spencer
520
00:26:03.339 --> 00:26:06.240
and it's interesting, different contrasts on that. And I don't
521
00:26:06.269 --> 00:26:08.289
know if one is right or wrong. I actually liked
522
00:26:08.329 --> 00:26:11.049
the idea of keeping your, your character a bit ageless,
523
00:26:11.069 --> 00:26:14.529
you know, as opposed to, but Conley just really believes that,
524
00:26:15.069 --> 00:26:18.549
that Bosch should age in, in real time. And so
525
00:26:18.650 --> 00:26:21.180
in that sense, the books are a lot different than,
526
00:26:21.660 --> 00:26:25.559
than the, than the early books. And he, he's not,
527
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:28.809
I mean, The other thing is he experiments with a
528
00:26:28.829 --> 00:26:32.009
lot of different things, different ways. And, of course, he's
529
00:26:32.029 --> 00:26:33.490
got the whole TV movie thing.
530
00:26:33.390 --> 00:26:34.059
Going on, too.
531
00:26:34.220 --> 00:26:37.519
Yeah, so that's what I wanted. That's what I wanted. Like,
532
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:40.480
I love movies. You do, too, Dick. Charles, do you
533
00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:41.599
watch a lot of TV?
534
00:26:41.779 --> 00:26:42.039
Yes.
535
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:46.049
Yeah, I grew up on TV and movies, absolutely. And
536
00:26:46.089 --> 00:26:49.329
I still go to the theater to watch them in
537
00:26:49.369 --> 00:26:51.369
a darkened theater, yes. Yeah.
538
00:26:51.750 --> 00:26:55.109
See, because I learned from movies and I especially learned
539
00:26:55.250 --> 00:26:58.210
from older movies. I love older movies, you know, and
540
00:26:58.250 --> 00:27:00.299
I talk about that a lot on my shows because
541
00:27:00.670 --> 00:27:05.319
the dialogue in older movies is really good. You just,
542
00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:08.220
because you always know what's going on. And I think people,
543
00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:10.339
that's why they have all these stations now where you
544
00:27:10.380 --> 00:27:13.140
could watch. The younger people are watching a lot of
545
00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:17.420
older movies and they like them. And so they're never
546
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:18.299
ending for them.
547
00:27:19.859 --> 00:27:22.220
But a lot of them, just opposite of that, and
548
00:27:22.259 --> 00:27:25.380
I've heard this from them, they won't watch black and
549
00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:28.539
white movies. They just won't.
550
00:27:29.380 --> 00:27:35.380
I think people do, though.
551
00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:37.559
They've told you that, that they don't.
552
00:27:37.539 --> 00:27:40.640
Watch black and white? Oh, yeah. Yeah, the kids. I mean,
553
00:27:41.089 --> 00:27:45.130
you know, anyone either in the baby boomer generation or...
554
00:27:46.539 --> 00:27:49.400
It's all about the movie itself. But yes, I've heard
555
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:53.240
that from many students, which means they're missing out on
556
00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:57.700
classic movies like Captain Black, Falcon or, you know, any
557
00:27:57.740 --> 00:28:01.589
of the Orson Welles movies. But they just don't they
558
00:28:01.609 --> 00:28:03.049
don't like watching it in black and white.
559
00:28:04.329 --> 00:28:06.430
But sometimes they did like, you know, they did like
560
00:28:06.490 --> 00:28:09.650
Star is Born with Judy Garland. They made it, you know, colored.
561
00:28:09.930 --> 00:28:12.930
you know, and some of the movies are now in color,
562
00:28:12.970 --> 00:28:14.890
but it is kind of funny to see that, but
563
00:28:14.990 --> 00:28:17.670
you know, it's not the greatest that way, but I
564
00:28:17.710 --> 00:28:20.269
have a lot of writers on here that do, and
565
00:28:20.309 --> 00:28:23.930
they're young and they like old, and they like old series.
566
00:28:24.210 --> 00:28:26.549
You know, I think it's because TV, there's so much
567
00:28:26.650 --> 00:28:32.190
to watch now that people really enjoy TV a lot
568
00:28:32.259 --> 00:28:34.380
more than they did years ago. Cause you don't have
569
00:28:34.420 --> 00:28:36.740
that time where, You know, it used to be like, oh,
570
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:38.839
it's a holiday, so you're not going to have anything
571
00:28:38.900 --> 00:28:42.079
to watch. Well, now there's always something to watch.
572
00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:43.759
Too much. Yeah.
573
00:28:44.299 --> 00:28:47.240
Yeah. I write lists.
574
00:28:47.660 --> 00:28:50.259
But, you know, now I'm finally just saying if I
575
00:28:50.299 --> 00:28:53.640
don't really like it, I just don't go finish. You know,
576
00:28:53.740 --> 00:28:55.400
I used to when I when, you know, when it
577
00:28:55.460 --> 00:28:59.759
was COVID, I finished everything. But and even if it
578
00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:02.460
was like four seasons, but now I don't want to
579
00:29:02.509 --> 00:29:05.430
do that. I would like I like a movie. You know,
580
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:07.140
I just want to watch it and be done.
581
00:29:08.660 --> 00:29:10.799
You know, life is too short to keep reading a
582
00:29:10.819 --> 00:29:13.859
book that you don't like, you know, that isn't doing.
583
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:14.140
It for you.
584
00:29:14.779 --> 00:29:18.750
So did either of you watch Cape Fear? Yes, I did.
585
00:29:18.769 --> 00:29:19.589
All right.
586
00:29:19.630 --> 00:29:21.089
So what do you think?
587
00:29:21.509 --> 00:29:22.650
At first I wasn't going to.
588
00:29:23.390 --> 00:29:23.569
Yeah.
589
00:29:23.769 --> 00:29:25.269
At first I was going to not watch it.
590
00:29:26.130 --> 00:29:28.829
Well, first of all, I don't know why you would
591
00:29:28.849 --> 00:29:32.509
remake it because the movie was so good. So terrific.
592
00:29:32.529 --> 00:29:34.579
But the other thing is, and I have a pet
593
00:29:34.619 --> 00:29:38.069
peeve about that, is it was way too long. It
594
00:29:38.410 --> 00:29:42.339
got really boring. because they had to fill eight episodes
595
00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:44.480
where they could have done it in two or three.
596
00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:50.720
So I wanted to like it, and I like Javier Bardem,
597
00:29:50.779 --> 00:29:53.460
but I just thought it goes on and on. There
598
00:29:53.509 --> 00:29:55.230
was so much extraneous stuff in it.
599
00:29:55.710 --> 00:29:58.970
Because it really wasn't the whole story. It wasn't the story, really.
600
00:29:59.049 --> 00:29:59.289
I mean.
601
00:29:59.900 --> 00:30:01.259
they added so much in it.
602
00:30:01.420 --> 00:30:05.109
The story itself, the old, the first version was a
603
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:08.549
story contained and it was kind of scary because they
604
00:30:08.589 --> 00:30:09.710
were in one place.
605
00:30:10.750 --> 00:30:14.190
Now they were all over the place, but the acting
606
00:30:14.430 --> 00:30:15.289
was really good.
607
00:30:16.109 --> 00:30:16.430
It was.
608
00:30:16.450 --> 00:30:20.470
And, but I agree with you that it had, but
609
00:30:20.529 --> 00:30:22.910
I kept watching it and some of it, it was
610
00:30:22.950 --> 00:30:27.309
kind of more or less gruesome, you know? Um, Which,
611
00:30:27.569 --> 00:30:29.690
that was not the case. It was more of a
612
00:30:29.809 --> 00:30:33.269
scary thriller type, the first two, even with.
613
00:30:32.890 --> 00:30:34.430
Robert De Niro, the second version.
614
00:30:35.029 --> 00:30:35.289
Right.
615
00:30:36.390 --> 00:30:38.930
But this one, so it's interesting that you thought that, yeah, because,
616
00:30:38.950 --> 00:30:39.990
so did you finish it?
617
00:30:40.650 --> 00:30:41.250
Yeah, I did.
618
00:30:41.269 --> 00:30:42.109
Yeah.
619
00:30:42.450 --> 00:30:42.829
I did.
620
00:30:43.390 --> 00:30:46.490
You know, I used to review books for the New
621
00:30:46.529 --> 00:30:49.390
York Times, and I'm one of those people who, I
622
00:30:49.450 --> 00:30:53.329
read every page. Now, I might have, you know, moved
623
00:30:53.369 --> 00:30:56.109
the page fast, but I always would hope that this
624
00:30:56.170 --> 00:30:59.170
is going to get better. And if I don't keep
625
00:30:59.250 --> 00:31:01.609
reading it and it gets better, I'm going to not,
626
00:31:02.230 --> 00:31:05.970
you know, the review isn't going to be relevant. 99%
627
00:31:05.970 --> 00:31:07.819
of the time it did not get better if it
628
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:08.910
was bad.
629
00:31:09.210 --> 00:31:12.079
Right. Dick, do you finish everything that you watch?
630
00:31:12.920 --> 00:31:16.259
Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I'm very much what
631
00:31:16.299 --> 00:31:21.200
Charles said. It's like if I'm not really into it.
632
00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:24.569
I don't watch as much of the streaming and everything
633
00:31:24.589 --> 00:31:28.369
as probably most people. But when I find something, I mean,
634
00:31:28.450 --> 00:31:33.329
my last huge go-to, and if you haven't watched it,
635
00:31:33.329 --> 00:31:35.970
you're not going to understand it, but it's incredibly popular
636
00:31:36.009 --> 00:31:39.150
is Pluribus. Pluribus is the science fiction thing.
637
00:31:39.009 --> 00:31:40.349
Where- Right, I've started it.
638
00:31:40.690 --> 00:31:41.069
Yeah.
639
00:31:41.150 --> 00:31:42.630
Do you like science fiction, Dick?
640
00:31:42.930 --> 00:31:46.750
Are you a fan? I do. I mean, my current
641
00:31:46.769 --> 00:31:49.470
book is science fiction, The Vanishing. So, you know, yeah.
642
00:31:49.829 --> 00:31:52.670
And I'm a big, I love my plug, but I'm
643
00:31:52.710 --> 00:31:57.710
a big, I'm a big, I mean, see, that's something
644
00:31:57.750 --> 00:31:59.839
that over the years I always followed. I always watched
645
00:31:59.859 --> 00:32:02.259
The Twilight Zone and Outer Limits. And then I became
646
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:04.420
a big fan of X-Files and all that kind of
647
00:32:05.099 --> 00:32:08.720
stuff and UFO conspiracies and all that kind of stuff.
648
00:32:09.180 --> 00:32:13.039
And that's what Pluribus is about. So that's huge. And
649
00:32:13.099 --> 00:32:14.960
before that, there was a show called, there is a
650
00:32:15.019 --> 00:32:21.839
show called Severance about basically the brain and the person
651
00:32:21.900 --> 00:32:24.259
can work and they won't know that it changes them
652
00:32:24.299 --> 00:32:27.089
into two people. So that's kind of science fiction-y too.
653
00:32:27.930 --> 00:32:30.490
So when I get shows like that, I get it.
654
00:32:31.099 --> 00:32:33.140
Well, it's kind of a good idea that show I
655
00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:35.549
did because it's kind of a good idea because it's
656
00:32:35.589 --> 00:32:38.309
almost like whatever happens at work, just leave it there.
657
00:32:38.450 --> 00:32:40.509
And whatever happens at home, just leave it there.
658
00:32:40.829 --> 00:32:44.170
But it's not a good idea though. Right. Yeah.
659
00:32:44.190 --> 00:32:47.299
But I mean, but for people, you know, it's hard
660
00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:50.559
because some people, when they come to work and they're
661
00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:53.519
in a bad mood, this is not good. You know, they,
662
00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:57.319
you know, uh, my career at first was a lab
663
00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:59.440
tech and I worked in hospitals. So you have to
664
00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:01.970
be up, you know, and you can't be like, you know,
665
00:33:01.990 --> 00:33:03.970
cause people are sick. So you want to be like,
666
00:33:04.170 --> 00:33:08.069
you know, um, help them feel better and be, you know,
667
00:33:08.289 --> 00:33:10.670
give them some joy. And, you know, so it's, that's
668
00:33:10.690 --> 00:33:13.150
the kind of career I had. So, but when I
669
00:33:13.190 --> 00:33:16.250
started writing, I did, I did murder mysteries because I
670
00:33:16.269 --> 00:33:20.990
did screenplays. I have screenplays in every genre except sci-fi. So,
671
00:33:21.470 --> 00:33:23.400
That's a hard one for me to write. I don't
672
00:33:23.420 --> 00:33:24.380
think I can write that.
673
00:33:24.619 --> 00:33:26.720
So it's good that you could. Charles, what about you?
674
00:33:26.779 --> 00:33:27.940
Could you write sci-fi?
675
00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:28.019
No.
676
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:33.099
Although my new book, but it wasn't, I didn't get
677
00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:35.460
it until people pointed it out to me. The new
678
00:33:35.500 --> 00:33:39.660
book has a paranormal plot point in it, but I
679
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:41.859
still don't think of it as science fiction.
680
00:33:42.339 --> 00:33:45.599
Yeah, because paranormal could be anything that's just different.
681
00:33:45.619 --> 00:33:46.039
Right, right.
682
00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:46.579
Yeah.
683
00:33:46.619 --> 00:33:50.950
You know, I've had some authors on, you know, and I...
684
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:54.420
They're not as much as it used to be when
685
00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:58.819
they're having, you know, affairs with, you know, snakes or
686
00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:00.440
animal type things.
687
00:34:00.460 --> 00:34:03.779
I cannot write that. You know, that's not happening.
688
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:07.319
I don't know that, you know, like, again, science fiction
689
00:34:07.740 --> 00:34:10.639
is something much more pure. I mean, it involves.
690
00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:12.840
Yes, yes. But it's over the years.
691
00:34:13.340 --> 00:34:17.739
What I like and what my book is and what
692
00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:20.820
inspired me. is the people like, I mean, Stephen King
693
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:22.179
is a perfect example.
694
00:34:22.219 --> 00:34:26.059
But that's a thriller type, right?
695
00:34:26.260 --> 00:34:29.900
There's science fiction stuff in there and there's supernatural stuff.
696
00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:33.500
And there's an author, very big bestselling author now who
697
00:34:33.539 --> 00:34:36.739
does the same thing, Riley Sager. And I love his
698
00:34:36.780 --> 00:34:41.369
stuff too. And, uh, So it's it's like it's it's
699
00:34:41.409 --> 00:34:45.329
like so Charles's book, which which I've read, obviously, as
700
00:34:45.369 --> 00:34:48.639
he said, it's got a paranormal element. But the paranormal
701
00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:50.880
element is not the driving force of the book.
702
00:34:50.900 --> 00:34:51.679
Right.
703
00:34:53.219 --> 00:34:56.360
With a lot of these other books, the paranormal force
704
00:34:56.420 --> 00:34:58.699
is what the book is all about. And I mean,
705
00:34:58.760 --> 00:35:01.340
it's just different ways of writing it. Right. Right.
706
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:04.289
In my series about paranormalism. you know, I have a
707
00:35:04.309 --> 00:35:07.849
dog that talks in the romantic comedy. So, and people
708
00:35:07.929 --> 00:35:11.289
love the dog, but it's a magical, it's not, you know,
709
00:35:11.309 --> 00:35:14.150
that's what I didn't know when I wrote it, what
710
00:35:14.170 --> 00:35:16.570
people would think. And they think it's like a magical
711
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:19.380
type of thing. And probably it is because the dog
712
00:35:20.099 --> 00:35:23.099
comes to help people, you know? So I think that
713
00:35:23.260 --> 00:35:26.360
there's all kinds of writing now. So that's the problem,
714
00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:29.159
which I think a lot of authors face is what
715
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:33.059
the genre they put on Amazon. It's very difficult if
716
00:35:33.099 --> 00:35:37.670
they If Amazon puts you in the wrong genre, then
717
00:35:37.809 --> 00:35:38.769
it's tough for you.
718
00:35:39.349 --> 00:35:40.010
Boy, that's interesting.
719
00:35:40.030 --> 00:35:41.789
And they do. And they do that.
720
00:35:42.670 --> 00:35:46.179
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know. Like my book has
721
00:35:46.219 --> 00:35:52.099
a picture of a haunted house on the cover. And
722
00:35:52.300 --> 00:35:54.840
at one point it was like a gothic haunted house,
723
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:57.119
but it's not really what the book is about. It's
724
00:35:57.159 --> 00:36:01.840
really about paranormal, strange forests and stuff. A quick, quick
725
00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:05.679
aside that my book, the one talking about now, The Vanishers,
726
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:09.909
it's about a bunch of aliens and a house that
727
00:36:10.530 --> 00:36:13.989
are taking people away. And I actually wrote this many,
728
00:36:14.010 --> 00:36:17.289
many years ago when I started writing mysteries. And, you know,
729
00:36:17.309 --> 00:36:18.969
you talk about being stuck in the genre and I
730
00:36:18.989 --> 00:36:20.650
had written a mystery and sold it. And then I
731
00:36:20.949 --> 00:36:22.789
went to this book, took this book to my agent
732
00:36:23.269 --> 00:36:24.349
and she's like, what.
733
00:36:24.469 --> 00:36:24.989
What is this?
734
00:36:25.050 --> 00:36:26.550
Why are you doing this? You know, why are you
735
00:36:26.809 --> 00:36:29.610
doing this? And I put it away. And then years
736
00:36:29.650 --> 00:36:31.409
and years later, I dug it out and I sent
737
00:36:31.469 --> 00:36:33.929
it to a publisher. They're like, oh, this is great.
738
00:36:33.969 --> 00:36:35.949
We like this. So you never quite know.
739
00:36:36.449 --> 00:36:37.070
No, that's right.
740
00:36:37.150 --> 00:36:39.130
I have a screenplay like that. My editor and I
741
00:36:39.190 --> 00:36:41.630
wrote one and they were just taking people. They were
742
00:36:41.670 --> 00:36:44.050
dying in the house. You know, the house was the
743
00:36:44.469 --> 00:36:47.289
the house was the story, you know, but there was
744
00:36:47.329 --> 00:36:49.409
a screenplay and I never made it into a book,
745
00:36:49.510 --> 00:36:53.010
which I tell people a lot. And, you know, when
746
00:36:53.050 --> 00:36:55.210
I was an agent, all these people had all these
747
00:36:55.289 --> 00:36:58.699
great stories and they couldn't sell the scripts. because if
748
00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:01.480
you really, in order to make a movie, it costs
749
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:04.460
a lot of money, even if it's not a good movie. So,
750
00:37:04.679 --> 00:37:07.619
and nobody wants to take chances. And all, most of
751
00:37:07.699 --> 00:37:11.170
my clients were all new and were really good writers,
752
00:37:11.809 --> 00:37:14.849
but they gave it up, you know? And so I say,
753
00:37:14.929 --> 00:37:18.250
just write, start using your characters and put them in
754
00:37:18.289 --> 00:37:18.610
a book.
755
00:37:18.829 --> 00:37:21.829
Don't put them in the drawer. And I don't know,
756
00:37:21.949 --> 00:37:23.789
I do that.
757
00:37:23.809 --> 00:37:27.130
As somebody who has written a number of scripts and
758
00:37:27.170 --> 00:37:32.000
attempted to I will say that making it, and you
759
00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:37.050
know this, I think, making it in screenplays is much
760
00:37:37.090 --> 00:37:39.730
more difficult than in books. Right.
761
00:37:39.969 --> 00:37:41.650
You have to edit everything out.
762
00:37:42.230 --> 00:37:45.320
I mean, it's almost impossible to break, unless you live
763
00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:49.659
in Hollywood and you hang out in movie sets and
764
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:53.500
stuff like that. It's such a difficult time to break.
765
00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:55.880
I had options, but the options they give you are
766
00:37:55.900 --> 00:37:58.559
for no money. And they want an option for like
767
00:37:58.619 --> 00:38:01.460
three years. So that means you can't do anything with
768
00:38:01.500 --> 00:38:04.639
it for three years. You know, that was horrible. So
769
00:38:04.739 --> 00:38:07.099
if they don't sell it in six months to.
770
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:08.309
A year, they're not selling it.
771
00:38:08.900 --> 00:38:10.400
Yeah.
772
00:38:10.539 --> 00:38:12.940
Really, the case is they could sell it right away.
773
00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:15.480
If they don't sell it right away, they lose interest,
774
00:38:15.780 --> 00:38:17.119
you know.
775
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:20.760
Well, I will say this about screenplay writing. And I think, Charles,
776
00:38:20.780 --> 00:38:22.800
I think you probably would agree with me. Because I
777
00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:25.320
hate writing descriptions. I love writing dialogue. Me too. I
778
00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:28.400
don't like writing descriptions. And a great thing in a
779
00:38:28.420 --> 00:38:30.079
movie script, you don't really have to write the script.
780
00:38:30.099 --> 00:38:33.300
You just say, it's morning, the sun came out. And
781
00:38:33.320 --> 00:38:35.699
that's what I like. And in a book, you kind
782
00:38:35.739 --> 00:38:37.980
of got to, you know, you describe the leaves and
783
00:38:38.019 --> 00:38:42.929
all that stuff. So, you know, writing a screenplay, I
784
00:38:42.969 --> 00:38:47.690
found could be fun. But again, you have to, it's,
785
00:38:48.489 --> 00:38:51.409
I mean, I never, so I mean, I had some
786
00:38:51.469 --> 00:38:55.449
success in terms of competitions getting awards stuff but i
787
00:38:55.469 --> 00:38:57.860
never was able to to sell one so i've uh
788
00:38:58.380 --> 00:39:00.380
i've stayed with books yeah.
789
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:03.699
I i tried it several times and didn't like it
790
00:39:03.800 --> 00:39:05.780
one of the screenplay i wrote with a friend of
791
00:39:06.039 --> 00:39:10.909
mine was option five times but but i didn't like
792
00:39:10.989 --> 00:39:14.489
writing them because i like i could first of all
793
00:39:14.510 --> 00:39:16.829
i don't have the strong visual sense that you really
794
00:39:16.869 --> 00:39:20.380
need and also i like to know i i like
795
00:39:21.530 --> 00:39:23.630
writing in first person, because you can get into the
796
00:39:23.909 --> 00:39:29.030
character's mind what they're doing. And with screenplays, you have
797
00:39:29.070 --> 00:39:32.510
to rely yes, it's part of the writing and the action,
798
00:39:32.570 --> 00:39:36.960
but you're really relying on the actor to bring a
799
00:39:36.980 --> 00:39:41.679
lot to it. And that matters. Yeah, it does matter.
800
00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:45.639
The director really matters. If you get a bad director,
801
00:39:45.699 --> 00:39:47.260
you're done. You're done. I mean.
802
00:39:47.619 --> 00:39:50.510
Well, also with a screenplay, right? I mean, most of
803
00:39:50.550 --> 00:39:53.170
the time, unless you're somebody important, it's going to get
804
00:39:53.210 --> 00:39:56.110
rewritten 50 times before it ever hits the screen. It's
805
00:39:56.130 --> 00:39:59.090
not like a novel where you do it. But, you know,
806
00:39:59.110 --> 00:40:02.710
I have like a screenplay. My knowledge, one knowledge of
807
00:40:02.730 --> 00:40:04.889
screenplays is I'm going to do a little name dropping here.
808
00:40:05.429 --> 00:40:08.110
So my best friend and one of my best friends
809
00:40:08.150 --> 00:40:11.940
at college was one of the most legendary screenwriters in Hollywood,
810
00:40:11.960 --> 00:40:15.159
Joe Esterhaus, who wrote Basic Instinct, Bigger Edge and all these.
811
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:18.960
And and I'm still in touch with Joe, you know,
812
00:40:18.980 --> 00:40:21.800
and we were talking recently on the phone and I
813
00:40:21.860 --> 00:40:24.329
was talking. He's doing a they're doing a reboot of
814
00:40:24.349 --> 00:40:27.210
Basic Instinct. And he was talking about how he wrote
815
00:40:27.309 --> 00:40:28.070
Basic Instinct.
816
00:40:28.090 --> 00:40:29.570
They are doing it. Who's in it?
817
00:40:30.570 --> 00:40:33.550
They're casting it. They're trying to. It was not Sharon Stone, but.
818
00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:36.340
She was so good in it. I mean, you know.
819
00:40:36.650 --> 00:40:38.030
I think it's supposed to be some play on her
820
00:40:38.070 --> 00:40:42.030
daughter or something. But, you know, I mean, Basic Instinct
821
00:40:42.050 --> 00:40:44.280
was such a, you know, it's kind of like Chinatown,
822
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:48.079
just like a classic crime, you know, script. And I
823
00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:51.340
remember I said to him, I was like, so how
824
00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:54.570
long did it take you to write Basic Instinct? And
825
00:40:54.590 --> 00:40:56.989
he said he wrote it in 13 days. He went
826
00:40:57.010 --> 00:41:01.110
to write and in 13 days he wrote this entire
827
00:41:01.170 --> 00:41:03.659
script and then turned it in. And they paid him like,
828
00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:05.820
you know, millions of dollars. And it seems really easy.
829
00:41:05.860 --> 00:41:07.820
And I said, wow, you wrote the whole thing in
830
00:41:07.820 --> 00:41:11.380
13 days? He said, yes, but he said, I was
831
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:15.800
thinking about it for three years before. Right. And then
832
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:18.280
he sat down and just wrote it, you know, and
833
00:41:18.300 --> 00:41:19.949
that's a little different than writing a novel.
834
00:41:20.550 --> 00:41:22.570
But I do like it because I do like you do.
835
00:41:22.670 --> 00:41:25.880
I like dialogue a lot. You know, so for me, it,
836
00:41:26.579 --> 00:41:28.360
you know, then I go, oh, do I have too
837
00:41:28.380 --> 00:41:31.519
much dialogue in it? But obviously they like the book
838
00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:35.480
when it's out. So, but I myself can't, I just
839
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:38.320
sit there and go, I see what the place looks like.
840
00:41:38.409 --> 00:41:41.349
But to me, I, then I start talking for the characters,
841
00:41:41.570 --> 00:41:45.489
you know? So I like, I do like dialogue a lot.
842
00:41:45.570 --> 00:41:47.849
When I read a book, I know myself, sometimes I
843
00:41:47.889 --> 00:41:50.730
will actually sort of skim or go right quickly through
844
00:41:50.750 --> 00:41:53.070
the description and then read the dialogue. Even, you know,
845
00:41:53.090 --> 00:41:55.059
if I'm reading somebody else's book, if it's a whole
846
00:41:55.099 --> 00:41:59.650
page about what the backyard looks like, I don't necessarily
847
00:41:59.670 --> 00:42:01.250
got to read it all. I'll just kind of like, OK,
848
00:42:01.269 --> 00:42:02.329
I get it.
849
00:42:02.530 --> 00:42:04.590
And then I. You get it.
850
00:42:04.690 --> 00:42:07.010
When I'm writing, like I said, I tend to, I
851
00:42:07.050 --> 00:42:11.800
probably do less description. you know, than most authors in
852
00:42:11.820 --> 00:42:13.599
terms of also the people, people say, well, you know,
853
00:42:13.619 --> 00:42:16.380
you haven't described Claire, you know, I, I sort of
854
00:42:16.420 --> 00:42:18.420
like the idea that you have her in, in your mind,
855
00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:19.219
like you picture.
856
00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:21.699
Oh, I know who Claire, you know, yes, you know,
857
00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:25.219
I think you describe her just by everything she does.
858
00:42:25.699 --> 00:42:27.960
Yeah. But, but it's not like, you know, this, this,
859
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:30.760
what exactly the color of her hair and what she's
860
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:33.159
wearing and all that stuff. You know, I, I don't, uh,
861
00:42:33.539 --> 00:42:35.440
I don't do, I don't do a lot of description
862
00:42:35.500 --> 00:42:39.570
about that. I just basically, uh, I like the idea,
863
00:42:39.610 --> 00:42:42.510
like I say, that leave it up to people's, probably
864
00:42:42.530 --> 00:42:45.369
different people read the book, have different visions of what
865
00:42:45.530 --> 00:42:46.070
she looks like.
866
00:42:46.610 --> 00:42:47.869
Charles, how do you feel about that?
867
00:42:48.690 --> 00:42:53.239
I have no idea how my characters look. And, you know,
868
00:42:53.260 --> 00:42:56.019
you sometimes get that question early on, like, who would
869
00:42:56.039 --> 00:43:00.019
you cast in the movie? It's a hard question for
870
00:43:00.059 --> 00:43:03.380
me because, like Dick, first of all, I'm not that
871
00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:07.320
good at description. But I don't like a lot of
872
00:43:07.409 --> 00:43:12.730
it either, Dick. I'm with you. For me, dialogue propels
873
00:43:12.769 --> 00:43:17.710
the novel forward. But the thing with screenplays is you
874
00:43:17.769 --> 00:43:24.159
can't have a lot of dialogue either. When I first
875
00:43:24.219 --> 00:43:26.940
started doing it, I would have someone speak the way
876
00:43:26.980 --> 00:43:29.360
we normally speak, but it might be a paragraph, might
877
00:43:29.380 --> 00:43:31.789
be four or five lines. And that's too long for
878
00:43:31.849 --> 00:43:35.309
a movie. You know, people don't have the patience for that.
879
00:43:35.369 --> 00:43:37.449
Well, except if they're doing a speech.
880
00:43:37.550 --> 00:43:40.820
If they're, like, standing and doing a speech and talking,
881
00:43:41.219 --> 00:43:43.840
you can do that. And then you can also veer
882
00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:46.239
it to some of the guests. Like, if they're bored,
883
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:49.239
you know, you could say, you shoot over to the
884
00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:51.840
guests that are bored listening to it or whatever.
885
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:53.619
But I think there are some.
886
00:43:53.639 --> 00:43:56.739
Because some good actors really can pull that off in
887
00:43:56.780 --> 00:43:58.760
a movie. And they do a lot.
888
00:43:59.050 --> 00:44:02.199
You also... I was going to say, the thing that
889
00:44:02.219 --> 00:44:04.500
you always learn in, I'm sorry, I used to say,
890
00:44:04.519 --> 00:44:07.539
the thing you always learn in scripts writing is they say,
891
00:44:07.659 --> 00:44:10.050
show it, don't tell it. So you have to visually
892
00:44:10.090 --> 00:44:12.260
do it as opposed to just having somebody talk about it.
893
00:44:12.309 --> 00:44:13.150
I'm sorry, Charles.
894
00:44:13.550 --> 00:44:17.210
I was just going to say, apropos of what you said, Mark,
895
00:44:19.429 --> 00:44:23.349
Marlon Brando gave some of the best performances ever, and
896
00:44:23.389 --> 00:44:26.670
he also did some of the worst performances ever.
897
00:44:26.690 --> 00:44:27.090
Yeah.
898
00:44:27.619 --> 00:44:29.179
And he, there was a fellow by the name of
899
00:44:29.219 --> 00:44:33.670
William Redfield who wrote, who was, he was, he knew
900
00:44:33.730 --> 00:44:36.809
Brando quite well. He was a roommate with him early
901
00:44:36.869 --> 00:44:39.429
years here. And he wrote a book called Letters from
902
00:44:39.469 --> 00:44:43.429
an Actor. And he was asked that question a lot.
903
00:44:43.690 --> 00:44:47.110
You know, how can Brando be so good and so
904
00:44:47.179 --> 00:44:50.079
bad at the same time? And he said, it's all
905
00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:52.920
in the writing. He said, if it's good writing, Brando
906
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:57.500
can be brilliant acted. But if it's really bad writing...
907
00:44:58.079 --> 00:44:59.179
He just can't pull it off.
908
00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:03.639
Well, I just watched Sayonara with him. I watched Sayonara
909
00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:06.300
with him and he didn't say as much as how
910
00:45:06.380 --> 00:45:09.420
he was acting so good. That's what I thought when
911
00:45:09.460 --> 00:45:13.889
I saw his facial movements, his eyes, everything made him
912
00:45:14.219 --> 00:45:15.730
unique in that.
913
00:45:16.829 --> 00:45:19.070
Well, you know, who's got, who's terrific at that is,
914
00:45:19.550 --> 00:45:22.150
and I'll give you a particular scene is De Niro.
915
00:45:22.789 --> 00:45:25.130
There's a scene in Goodfellas where he's sitting at the
916
00:45:25.150 --> 00:45:28.699
bar and And there's someone else, another gangster at the bar,
917
00:45:29.059 --> 00:45:33.980
who's really obnoxious. And De Niro does not say a word.
918
00:45:34.500 --> 00:45:37.139
But from his eyes, you can see he's going to
919
00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:37.780
kill this guy.
920
00:45:39.780 --> 00:45:41.469
I know that exact scene.
921
00:45:41.530 --> 00:45:44.010
I do, too, because I love that movie.
922
00:45:44.050 --> 00:45:44.489
Right, Dick?
923
00:45:44.550 --> 00:45:47.070
I mean, you know he doesn't say a thing. But
924
00:45:47.130 --> 00:45:50.130
you know the acting is so good. You know this
925
00:45:50.170 --> 00:45:51.869
guy doesn't have long for the world.
926
00:45:52.579 --> 00:45:52.920
Right.
927
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:56.739
With Billy Bats, who, a very violent scene, who does get,
928
00:45:56.900 --> 00:46:00.159
you know, killed. But that, to me, was incredible acting
929
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:01.199
without saying a word.
930
00:46:02.210 --> 00:46:04.050
Right, right, right. Yeah.
931
00:46:04.349 --> 00:46:07.289
I mean, Goodfellas is, to me, like, I watched it.
932
00:46:07.369 --> 00:46:09.130
I still watch it a lot. And I watched that
933
00:46:09.210 --> 00:46:10.739
in Vegas a lot.
934
00:46:11.239 --> 00:46:11.760
Not Vegas.
935
00:46:11.780 --> 00:46:12.739
Is that what it is? Yeah, right.
936
00:46:13.190 --> 00:46:14.929
Casino. Casino, yeah.
937
00:46:15.130 --> 00:46:15.909
I watched that.
938
00:46:15.929 --> 00:46:19.199
Casino's not quite as good, I thought it is, but
939
00:46:19.239 --> 00:46:20.090
he's very good in that too.
940
00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:21.960
Goodfellas is the best.
941
00:46:22.380 --> 00:46:23.800
I had dinner. I was going to do a book
942
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:28.400
with Joe Pistone, who was Donnie Brasco, and I had
943
00:46:28.940 --> 00:46:33.960
the good fortune to have dinner with him. There's always
944
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.639
this debate of the greatest gangster movie. Is it The
945
00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:41.820
Godfather or is it Goodfellas? And he said that Goodfellas...
946
00:46:41.420 --> 00:46:44.130
I asked him that. He said Goodfellas is the truest
947
00:46:44.570 --> 00:46:49.690
to what it was really like in any other gangster movie.
948
00:46:49.849 --> 00:46:54.139
So he did a great job of writing the book
949
00:46:54.199 --> 00:46:57.280
and then the movie, Nick Pelleggi. He really caught what
950
00:46:57.300 --> 00:46:57.940
he was like.
951
00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:01.739
And somebody... I've seen reviews of it, too, that have
952
00:47:01.889 --> 00:47:04.159
pointed out, which which I think makes it great is
953
00:47:04.659 --> 00:47:06.980
it's not so much a movie like The Godfather where
954
00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:09.340
you're where you're in the family. I mean, you're the
955
00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:12.940
Henry Hill is basically an outsider, you know, because he's
956
00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:16.690
not a big man. He's part of that whole group,
957
00:47:17.150 --> 00:47:20.530
but he's always never going to be, you know, one
958
00:47:20.570 --> 00:47:21.929
of the guys.
959
00:47:21.989 --> 00:47:24.380
He's only half Italian. So he can be.
960
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:28.639
And you're looking at it and you're looking at everything
961
00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:31.420
then through his eyes where he's like an observer of
962
00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:34.739
it all. And that's when you can do that. I
963
00:47:34.760 --> 00:47:38.610
just think that's what makes that movie that, yeah. I
964
00:47:38.650 --> 00:47:40.989
don't know that you can compare The Godfather and Goodfellas
965
00:47:41.030 --> 00:47:43.889
because they're just, they're both great, but they're completely different.
966
00:47:44.429 --> 00:47:49.630
Yeah, but some of these movies, they're just like you
967
00:47:49.989 --> 00:47:52.670
could watch them over and over again and still learn
968
00:47:52.730 --> 00:47:58.570
something while you're watching it. Joe Pesci, I don't know.
969
00:47:58.670 --> 00:48:01.750
He wasn't in a lot of movies afterwards, but he's
970
00:48:01.889 --> 00:48:03.210
so good.
971
00:48:04.409 --> 00:48:08.860
But it's weird. He did that kind of movie where
972
00:48:08.900 --> 00:48:11.039
he's the most evil, despicable person.
973
00:48:11.500 --> 00:48:12.219
And then my cousin.
974
00:48:13.039 --> 00:48:16.880
My Cousin Vinny, right. That's where he's funny and everything.
975
00:48:17.239 --> 00:48:20.880
And then the Mel Gibson movies, you know, he was
976
00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:24.119
like a comic relief, you know. But he quit acting,
977
00:48:24.179 --> 00:48:26.739
I think. I think he just retired or whatever at
978
00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:27.179
some point.
979
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:29.500
But he was so good in a lot of these,
980
00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:31.500
you know. And the other one that I really like
981
00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:33.860
is Michael Douglas. I watch everything he does. I don't
982
00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:36.400
care what he does. I like his movies, you know.
983
00:48:37.179 --> 00:48:40.880
And Basic Instinct, he was great in that. It just
984
00:48:40.900 --> 00:48:42.119
was a You know.
985
00:48:42.219 --> 00:48:43.829
Do you think so? And if you like him a
986
00:48:43.869 --> 00:48:44.349
lot or.
987
00:48:45.070 --> 00:48:48.849
I like him. I did not like that movie, Basic Instinct,
988
00:48:48.909 --> 00:48:52.389
but I like... Douglas has done some really interesting stuff.
989
00:48:53.309 --> 00:48:54.409
See, I'd like him to be the president.
990
00:48:54.429 --> 00:48:55.829
Wait, I want to hear what you said.
991
00:48:55.869 --> 00:48:57.750
You said you didn't like Basic Instinct? Really?
992
00:48:58.530 --> 00:48:59.730
Yeah, I didn't like it, no.
993
00:49:00.190 --> 00:49:02.090
Wow, you're one of the few people I've ever heard
994
00:49:02.130 --> 00:49:02.949
say that, you know?
995
00:49:03.150 --> 00:49:03.389
Yeah.
996
00:49:04.670 --> 00:49:06.460
What is it that you didn't like about it?
997
00:49:06.989 --> 00:49:12.369
I just didn't... I'm not a big fan of Esther House's... screenplays.
998
00:49:12.389 --> 00:49:16.739
I think he's way over the top I don't know.
999
00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:21.179
It's just a matter of personal likes and dislikes, I guess.
1000
00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:24.400
And then that great last scene.
1001
00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:26.699
With the ice pick under the bed. I mean, my God.
1002
00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:31.619
I like every scene. I just love that movie. That
1003
00:49:31.659 --> 00:49:33.000
was just a good movie.
1004
00:49:33.469 --> 00:49:37.550
But I do like Michael Douglas when he's giving the
1005
00:49:37.610 --> 00:49:38.769
speech as the president.
1006
00:49:38.909 --> 00:49:39.429
Oh, my God.
1007
00:49:40.090 --> 00:49:42.349
I could watch that scene and go like, oh, I
1008
00:49:42.409 --> 00:49:46.070
want this guy to be president. I think that was
1009
00:49:46.130 --> 00:49:49.690
a well-received movie that Rob Reiner did.
1010
00:49:49.730 --> 00:49:50.409
It was so good.
1011
00:49:51.150 --> 00:49:51.489
Yeah.
1012
00:49:53.460 --> 00:49:54.440
That's the thing.
1013
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:57.300
Some of the movies now that I watch, I'm going like,
1014
00:49:57.719 --> 00:49:59.900
I don't even know why I'm watching them because they're
1015
00:49:59.940 --> 00:50:05.179
not that great. But because there's so many outlets now,
1016
00:50:05.219 --> 00:50:05.980
they got to fill them.
1017
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:07.699
So they put a lot of movies out.
1018
00:50:08.019 --> 00:50:11.300
Do both of you still? I used to love going
1019
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:14.119
to the movies. I just find myself not now. I mean,
1020
00:50:14.139 --> 00:50:15.269
I tend to watch.
1021
00:50:15.309 --> 00:50:17.130
I used to go every weekend. My husband and I
1022
00:50:17.150 --> 00:50:20.650
went every weekend. Sometimes we went to see three movies, Friday,
1023
00:50:20.670 --> 00:50:23.789
Saturday and Sunday. A lot of them I watch on
1024
00:50:23.809 --> 00:50:26.969
TV now. I watch with big screens. So I watch it,
1025
00:50:27.159 --> 00:50:27.420
you know.
1026
00:50:27.889 --> 00:50:30.230
And they come so fast. I mean, you know, it's like.
1027
00:50:30.630 --> 00:50:31.989
I like the reaction.
1028
00:50:32.429 --> 00:50:34.150
It'll be in the theater, and then, like, a week
1029
00:50:34.190 --> 00:50:36.829
or two later, you'll say, oh, I saw it on Amazon.
1030
00:50:36.869 --> 00:50:38.650
You know, I was just going to say that, Dick.
1031
00:50:39.030 --> 00:50:41.719
I love going to the movie theater, but you're absolutely right.
1032
00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:44.599
If you don't see it that first week, it's gone,
1033
00:50:44.619 --> 00:50:45.300
and I'm screaming.
1034
00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:47.519
It's gone. Right, right. Yeah, you know.
1035
00:50:48.139 --> 00:50:50.380
And, you know, the thing is, like, I don't know
1036
00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:52.780
about you guys, but we spend a ton of money
1037
00:50:52.860 --> 00:50:53.820
on cable, okay?
1038
00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:55.340
I mean, I have everything.
1039
00:50:55.409 --> 00:50:55.550
I do.
1040
00:50:55.840 --> 00:50:56.289
And then.
1041
00:50:56.960 --> 00:51:00.679
after you spend all, like ours is like 400 or something.
1042
00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:04.099
I know we spend a lot. Then I'm thinking like,
1043
00:51:04.199 --> 00:51:04.480
why are.
1044
00:51:04.460 --> 00:51:07.360
They charging me then to watch something I'm already paying
1045
00:51:07.500 --> 00:51:08.500
so much money for?
1046
00:51:09.099 --> 00:51:11.260
But you know, I got Hulu and all of that.
1047
00:51:11.590 --> 00:51:15.349
So I think that like, see Netflix, I think for people,
1048
00:51:15.389 --> 00:51:18.369
that's why so many people like it because you pay what,
1049
00:51:18.369 --> 00:51:20.849
20 bucks and you see as many movies as you want,
1050
00:51:22.010 --> 00:51:27.889
you know? But like, Sometimes on Prime, it's $ 20, you know.
1051
00:51:27.889 --> 00:51:30.050
$ 19. 99.
1052
00:51:28.610 --> 00:51:29.010
Oh, yeah.
1053
00:51:29.090 --> 00:51:31.550
And then one minute later, it's off, and it's free.
1054
00:51:33.929 --> 00:51:35.389
But you want to see it. You know, I mean,
1055
00:51:35.489 --> 00:51:37.190
it's like, you know, when there's a movie out, I'm like, okay,
1056
00:51:37.210 --> 00:51:37.690
I want to see it.
1057
00:51:37.849 --> 00:51:38.710
I know, I know.
1058
00:51:38.969 --> 00:51:41.789
Like things, you know, like when the Dylan movie came out,
1059
00:51:41.969 --> 00:51:43.449
I wanted to see it, so I paid for it,
1060
00:51:43.530 --> 00:51:43.769
you know.
1061
00:51:43.909 --> 00:51:46.250
Yeah, yeah. I do, too. You know, I do, and
1062
00:51:46.289 --> 00:51:48.670
I added on. But I think, you know, when you
1063
00:51:48.730 --> 00:51:49.489
really think.
1064
00:51:49.349 --> 00:51:52.400
About how much it does cost with everything, You know,
1065
00:51:52.420 --> 00:51:56.539
if you get Prime and Hulu and Apple, I have.
1066
00:51:56.559 --> 00:51:57.800
All of them.
1067
00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:00.260
Well, very soon we're not going to have a choice.
1068
00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:06.090
I mean, for instance, there's an enormous multiplex on First Avenue.
1069
00:52:06.110 --> 00:52:08.750
Is it First Avenue or Second Avenue? I'm sorry, Second
1070
00:52:08.809 --> 00:52:12.170
Avenue and 32nd Street. It's one of these giant agencies.
1071
00:52:12.469 --> 00:52:16.829
They're going out of business because NYU bought the property. Really?
1072
00:52:16.969 --> 00:52:17.409
Oh, my God.
1073
00:52:17.429 --> 00:52:19.630
Yeah, and they're going to add to the hospital there.
1074
00:52:19.900 --> 00:52:23.500
That's about 20 screens that are disappearing from that area.
1075
00:52:23.900 --> 00:52:25.800
It's not far from my neighborhood, Charles.
1076
00:52:25.900 --> 00:52:26.840
Right, it is probably.
1077
00:52:26.860 --> 00:52:29.239
Yeah, a lot of ours have gone down.
1078
00:52:29.300 --> 00:52:32.380
That's one of those, yeah, that's one of those big complexes.
1079
00:52:32.440 --> 00:52:35.260
And I had just heard that too.
1080
00:52:35.719 --> 00:52:37.510
But I always used to like to go to see
1081
00:52:37.530 --> 00:52:40.750
the reactions from people. I love that part. You know,
1082
00:52:40.789 --> 00:52:42.960
I'd like to see when they get up and, when
1083
00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:46.110
they're walking out, what they're talking about. I like to
1084
00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:48.110
be in there, you know, to hear what they.
1085
00:52:47.829 --> 00:52:48.570
Say about it.
1086
00:52:48.829 --> 00:52:51.329
Whole experience sitting there, you eat popcorn, get a soda,
1087
00:52:51.349 --> 00:52:56.309
you know, you know, and it's just, it's, yeah, I've always, I, I, I,
1088
00:52:57.070 --> 00:53:00.099
I worked nights a lot when years ago and they
1089
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:02.809
say you'd be off during the day. And I actually
1090
00:53:02.829 --> 00:53:04.369
used to enjoy going to movies during the day when
1091
00:53:04.389 --> 00:53:05.150
there weren't many people.
1092
00:53:05.190 --> 00:53:06.349
Yeah, it was great.
1093
00:53:06.429 --> 00:53:06.949
Right, yeah.
1094
00:53:06.969 --> 00:53:07.730
Not a lot of people.
1095
00:53:08.230 --> 00:53:11.449
But listen, everything does change. And I hate everybody says
1096
00:53:11.489 --> 00:53:14.659
that everything's changing. But some of the things that are
1097
00:53:14.699 --> 00:53:18.199
changing are not so good, but they're changing anyway. As
1098
00:53:18.260 --> 00:53:19.860
we speak, something is changing.
1099
00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:23.880
Well, one of the problems for me is that there's
1100
00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:28.960
25 minutes of commercials and trailers before it even starts.
1101
00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:32.230
I'm exhausted by the time it starts. Yeah.
1102
00:53:32.489 --> 00:53:34.969
Well, and you never can time it because I went to,
1103
00:53:35.090 --> 00:53:36.989
I actually went to the theater to see, what's it called?
1104
00:53:37.010 --> 00:53:40.239
Full Disclosure, the Spielberg movie about flying saucers and stuff.
1105
00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:42.579
See, that came in really fast.
1106
00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:43.920
What's that?
1107
00:53:44.619 --> 00:53:46.519
That came in, went so fast. I didn't get a
1108
00:53:46.519 --> 00:53:47.139
chance to see it.
1109
00:53:47.219 --> 00:53:50.369
It wasn't, it wasn't, uh, it was a little disappointing
1110
00:53:50.449 --> 00:53:53.039
on some levels, you know, but, but, uh, But that
1111
00:53:53.079 --> 00:53:55.059
was one. And I don't really go, I really go
1112
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:56.880
to the theater, but I went and I, and I
1113
00:53:56.900 --> 00:53:59.000
did the whole thing, which is, well, there's gonna be
1114
00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:01.099
25 minutes of preview. So I'll go 10 minutes late
1115
00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:02.769
or whatever. I don't have to sit through them all.
1116
00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:04.630
And I got there and I'd missed the beginning of
1117
00:54:04.639 --> 00:54:08.289
the movie because it started early. So you're never, you
1118
00:54:08.309 --> 00:54:09.349
really have to.
1119
00:54:09.429 --> 00:54:11.429
I hate if I miss the beginning of the movie,
1120
00:54:11.469 --> 00:54:12.989
I don't want to watch it. I have to see
1121
00:54:13.010 --> 00:54:13.510
the beginning.
1122
00:54:13.670 --> 00:54:16.269
But I just, I just sat there watching trailer after
1123
00:54:16.289 --> 00:54:18.369
trailer of movies that I don't want to see. And I'm,
1124
00:54:18.650 --> 00:54:21.610
you know, just you're tired by the time the movie starts.
1125
00:54:21.690 --> 00:54:24.190
So I would like to, I want Charles to tell
1126
00:54:24.230 --> 00:54:26.949
everybody about some of your books and what's next for
1127
00:54:27.010 --> 00:54:27.610
you and what's.
1128
00:54:28.309 --> 00:54:28.869
Oh, okay.
1129
00:54:29.349 --> 00:54:31.159
So we don't forget that.
1130
00:54:31.780 --> 00:54:35.159
I started with a series, Henry Swan, who's a skip tracer,
1131
00:54:35.739 --> 00:54:38.760
which is the lowest form of detective. I, yes. And
1132
00:54:38.800 --> 00:54:41.920
there are five of those. And I stopped because I
1133
00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:44.380
just thought, I don't want to keep writing this, this,
1134
00:54:44.679 --> 00:54:51.929
the same thing. Then I, I have stand-alones as well.
1135
00:54:52.070 --> 00:54:57.369
And they're not mysteries, the traditional mysteries. As a matter
1136
00:54:57.389 --> 00:55:01.329
of fact, most of my novels don't have murders in them.
1137
00:55:02.409 --> 00:55:06.260
And if they do, they happen before the book even starts.
1138
00:55:08.300 --> 00:55:12.119
And the latest book I had, and I did a book,
1139
00:55:12.699 --> 00:55:12.849
it's a.
1140
00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:16.980
Example of what I'm talking about. I did a book
1141
00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:20.280
called Second Story Man, which was about a master burglar.
1142
00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:24.340
And I had no intention of writing another one, but
1143
00:55:25.079 --> 00:55:28.360
I started to think about what happens to the character
1144
00:55:28.510 --> 00:55:31.889
after the book ends. And I thought, I'm really interested
1145
00:55:31.909 --> 00:55:34.489
to see what happens. And I wrote the sequel to
1146
00:55:34.570 --> 00:55:36.969
it just to see what happens to him after the
1147
00:55:36.989 --> 00:55:40.090
first one. And the book out now is called The
1148
00:55:40.130 --> 00:55:44.530
Beginning of Everything. And it's got a paranormal element, but
1149
00:55:44.570 --> 00:55:48.380
it's really about a guy who's a journalist who has
1150
00:55:49.110 --> 00:55:52.039
ESP since he was a kid. He sees things. He
1151
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:55.380
sees visions. He doesn't talk to the dead. He doesn't predict.
1152
00:55:55.980 --> 00:55:58.659
And he's never told anyone because he's embarrassed by it
1153
00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:02.380
and a little afraid of it. The only one who knows,
1154
00:56:02.440 --> 00:56:05.079
and it was accidental, is his best friend. And his
1155
00:56:05.139 --> 00:56:08.940
best friend comes to him one day. His college-age stepdaughter
1156
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:13.380
is missing. And he asks Josh, this character, to help
1157
00:56:13.420 --> 00:56:16.500
him and to find her. And you know he's asking
1158
00:56:16.559 --> 00:56:20.070
him because he knows that he has this ability. And
1159
00:56:20.110 --> 00:56:22.030
so that's what the latest book is about.
1160
00:56:23.570 --> 00:56:27.510
And, you know, I read most of Charles's, pretty much all,
1161
00:56:27.570 --> 00:56:28.829
I think, pretty much all of Charles's books.
1162
00:56:28.849 --> 00:56:30.090
Yeah, I think you have.
1163
00:56:30.510 --> 00:56:34.239
One interesting thing about him is that his books are
1164
00:56:34.300 --> 00:56:36.300
all very different. I mean, he tends to write.
1165
00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:37.880
That's a good thing. That's a good thing.
1166
00:56:37.980 --> 00:56:41.199
Yeah, and this certainly falls, the beginning of everything certainly
1167
00:56:41.219 --> 00:56:43.420
falls in that category. But like you said, he started
1168
00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:47.610
out with Swan, and then, you know, the Second Story Man, and...
1169
00:56:47.789 --> 00:56:53.420
Devil in the Hole. Yeah. Also, it made me my favorite.
1170
00:56:53.619 --> 00:56:55.099
So where should people start?
1171
00:56:55.159 --> 00:56:57.679
If someone wants to, where should someone start?
1172
00:56:57.699 --> 00:56:59.679
See, I wrote them all as standalone, so it doesn't
1173
00:56:59.699 --> 00:57:03.719
really matter. And the first swan is called Swan's Last
1174
00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:06.179
Song because I never thought I'd write another one with
1175
00:57:06.260 --> 00:57:07.300
a swan character.
1176
00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:11.789
So here's another song. We all probably have another song.
1177
00:57:12.309 --> 00:57:15.090
Yeah. Our friend Reed Farrell Coleman, cause I I've seen
1178
00:57:15.130 --> 00:57:17.110
him and he did an interview with me as, as
1179
00:57:17.170 --> 00:57:19.250
Dick did too. He said the other day, he said,
1180
00:57:19.269 --> 00:57:21.389
you know, you have a sub genre of your own
1181
00:57:21.989 --> 00:57:24.210
to me. And I said, really? He said, yeah. He said,
1182
00:57:24.250 --> 00:57:26.730
you leave a lot of, you leave a lot of
1183
00:57:26.789 --> 00:57:30.449
things dangling. You don't, you don't have closure on a
1184
00:57:30.489 --> 00:57:33.800
lot of things. And I know you do that purposely. Uh,
1185
00:57:33.869 --> 00:57:36.769
it's not out of laziness or forgetfulness that I don't,
1186
00:57:37.389 --> 00:57:40.389
that I'll start up something because I think life is
1187
00:57:40.429 --> 00:57:45.159
like that. So, um, So I agree with Dick. They
1188
00:57:45.260 --> 00:57:47.670
are all different, even though they're all crime novels.
1189
00:57:48.650 --> 00:57:49.190
Right.
1190
00:57:49.469 --> 00:57:52.190
And they're an audio book. I think one of the
1191
00:57:52.789 --> 00:57:54.690
beginning of everything. Is that an audio book?
1192
00:57:54.750 --> 00:57:54.969
I don't.
1193
00:57:56.269 --> 00:57:56.809
It is.
1194
00:57:57.309 --> 00:57:59.909
As the Blackstone put it out as an audio book.
1195
00:58:00.889 --> 00:58:02.380
OK, I like audio. I like audio.
1196
00:58:03.150 --> 00:58:04.710
They're all on audio now.
1197
00:58:04.889 --> 00:58:10.690
I think audio is important. That's how I listen. I
1198
00:58:10.730 --> 00:58:12.929
love that, audio books. But I have had so many
1199
00:58:13.050 --> 00:58:16.800
authors on, and most of them do not like audio books.
1200
00:58:17.050 --> 00:58:17.510
I love them.
1201
00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:24.659
I did have something very interesting because my new publisher,
1202
00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:27.940
in putting all the others, there were four that were
1203
00:58:27.980 --> 00:58:31.369
never out as audio. and they sent me samples of
1204
00:58:31.409 --> 00:58:35.030
the audio, and they were all AI. Not actors.
1205
00:58:35.050 --> 00:58:35.489
Oh, really?
1206
00:58:35.750 --> 00:58:40.570
Oh, no. Yeah, yeah. Well, but if you use... Yeah.
1207
00:58:40.750 --> 00:58:43.429
But if you use Audible, you get to pick, you know,
1208
00:58:44.010 --> 00:58:44.780
a lot of times.
1209
00:58:45.300 --> 00:58:45.579
Right.
1210
00:58:46.159 --> 00:58:48.260
I've never listened to a book. I don't have anything
1211
00:58:48.360 --> 00:58:50.960
against it, but I've never actually listened to a book.
1212
00:58:51.099 --> 00:58:51.599
I love it.
1213
00:58:52.039 --> 00:58:54.639
Well, you don't... I mean, I've done... I mean, normally
1214
00:58:54.659 --> 00:58:59.269
you don't pick the person, Marcia. They... you know, you'll
1215
00:58:59.329 --> 00:59:01.940
prove the person. I mean, I've never... Oh, no, right, right.
1216
00:59:01.980 --> 00:59:02.570
You'll prove it.
1217
00:59:02.679 --> 00:59:04.840
And they'll say, are you okay with this person? And
1218
00:59:04.900 --> 00:59:06.730
I'm like, always, yeah, sure, whatever.
1219
00:59:06.789 --> 00:59:08.489
Well, some aren't, though, but if you don't have a
1220
00:59:08.530 --> 00:59:12.760
good voice, you know, I... had, I know what I want,
1221
00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:14.829
but if, and if it's, but now, I mean.
1222
00:59:15.150 --> 00:59:18.469
These people are professional, though. These are professional actors and actresses.
1223
00:59:18.309 --> 00:59:21.699
Who do this for a living. Yes, but sometimes it doesn't, Mitch.
1224
00:59:22.119 --> 00:59:25.550
But I'm one of those people, I guess because I'm
1225
00:59:25.730 --> 00:59:29.010
old school, you know, like, again, I can't listen to
1226
00:59:29.050 --> 00:59:32.489
an audible book because I keep losing track. And, you know,
1227
00:59:32.530 --> 00:59:33.809
I used to try and do it in my car
1228
00:59:33.829 --> 00:59:35.840
for a while and I just, I can't do it.
1229
00:59:35.909 --> 00:59:40.179
I read. Yeah. Yeah.
1230
00:59:40.199 --> 00:59:41.019
Most of everybody.
1231
00:59:41.219 --> 00:59:43.139
I just think, I just seem to be one of
1232
00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:45.820
the people that likes audio. All right, Dick, tell everybody
1233
00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:47.960
about you. What's, what have you got going for the.
1234
00:59:48.039 --> 00:59:48.280
Okay.
1235
00:59:48.320 --> 00:59:51.440
Well, I actually have a, this sounds more exciting probably,
1236
00:59:51.559 --> 00:59:53.429
probably than it necessarily is, but I have a bunch
1237
00:59:53.469 --> 00:59:57.909
of books coming out. I, so my book, my book
1238
00:59:57.929 --> 01:00:00.469
that's out now, it's called the vanishes and the vanishes
1239
01:00:00.570 --> 01:00:03.829
is paranormal. One about people disappearing from a summer house.
1240
01:00:04.110 --> 01:00:08.739
And that that's out in a ebook and a, print
1241
01:00:08.860 --> 01:00:12.159
but it's uh talking about audible uh a place called
1242
01:00:12.179 --> 01:00:15.739
podium entertainment is putting out the audible version in later
1243
01:00:15.780 --> 01:00:19.360
this month in september and uh uh so i'm pretty
1244
01:00:19.380 --> 01:00:22.480
excited about that because they've done another time and uh
1245
01:00:22.559 --> 01:00:25.739
so that's that's out now in uh in november i
1246
01:00:25.780 --> 01:00:28.780
have a book coming out called the mobile and uh
1247
01:00:28.860 --> 01:00:30.789
this is a kind of like a book i really
1248
01:00:30.849 --> 01:00:34.489
like doing um it's inspired in some ways by my
1249
01:00:34.610 --> 01:00:37.550
own long newspaper career people always say oh you should
1250
01:00:37.570 --> 01:00:39.920
write out like a book about your career this is
1251
01:00:39.980 --> 01:00:43.960
a kind of fictionalized inspiration about a media mogul I
1252
01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:46.119
mean obviously people are going to think something like Rupert
1253
01:00:46.159 --> 01:00:48.489
Murdoch because I work for him but it's fiction but
1254
01:00:48.730 --> 01:00:49.969
you know when I wrote it I was kind of
1255
01:00:50.030 --> 01:00:51.909
thinking like I want to do a version of like
1256
01:00:51.969 --> 01:00:55.449
Citizen Kane of a of a somebody who starts off
1257
01:00:55.659 --> 01:00:57.559
like it's kind of a noble thing and then they're
1258
01:00:57.820 --> 01:01:00.260
you know the whole thing sort of just falls apart
1259
01:01:00.300 --> 01:01:03.150
at some point And gets involved in scandal and everything.
1260
01:01:03.269 --> 01:01:05.349
So that's the book I wrote. And it sort of
1261
01:01:05.469 --> 01:01:10.949
encapsulates a lot of stuff that I lived in the 70s, 80s,
1262
01:01:11.010 --> 01:01:14.219
and 90s. It's also a book that spans several decades.
1263
01:01:14.260 --> 01:01:15.960
So it's a bit different if you've read.
1264
01:01:16.039 --> 01:01:17.280
My other books.
1265
01:01:17.860 --> 01:01:20.880
And then talking about different, I just sold another book
1266
01:01:20.920 --> 01:01:24.000
that's coming out in December, believe it or not. They're
1267
01:01:24.019 --> 01:01:26.639
very back to back. And this is called The Hitler Legacy.
1268
01:01:27.260 --> 01:01:31.920
And I know Charles mentioned reading, you know, Jack Reacher
1269
01:01:32.139 --> 01:01:35.400
and Lee Child. And this is kind of my version
1270
01:01:35.420 --> 01:01:37.400
of trying to do a Jack Reacher, Lee Child book
1271
01:01:37.460 --> 01:01:43.000
about a kind of a disgraced CIA guy who's you know,
1272
01:01:43.019 --> 01:01:45.559
who's trying to stop a takeover of the White House.
1273
01:01:45.639 --> 01:01:47.960
And it's got all kind of political intrigue and everything
1274
01:01:48.059 --> 01:01:51.510
going on it. So The Mogul in November and The
1275
01:01:51.550 --> 01:01:56.369
Hitler Legacy in December. And finally, I just turned in
1276
01:01:57.449 --> 01:02:00.869
the seventh book in the Claire Carlson series, and that's
1277
01:02:00.949 --> 01:02:03.889
scheduled for next April. So, you know.
1278
01:02:03.929 --> 01:02:07.210
And by the way, Marcia, during this hour that we talked,
1279
01:02:07.789 --> 01:02:08.750
Dick wrote another book.
1280
01:02:13.349 --> 01:02:15.030
Yes, he'll be on tomorrow to discuss it.
1281
01:02:15.670 --> 01:02:18.789
Like I said, it sounds a little more impressive than
1282
01:02:18.829 --> 01:02:20.510
it really is, but I just got.
1283
01:02:20.590 --> 01:02:21.550
No, it's impressive.
1284
01:02:21.769 --> 01:02:22.550
It's impressive.
1285
01:02:22.670 --> 01:02:23.510
It's impressive.
1286
01:02:23.530 --> 01:02:23.969
Very.
1287
01:02:24.369 --> 01:02:27.289
Yeah, I mean, you write really good, and you're an
1288
01:02:27.429 --> 01:02:30.300
interesting guest, and it's always fun. And Charles, it's so
1289
01:02:30.380 --> 01:02:32.320
nice to have you on. I hope you'll come on again.
1290
01:02:32.340 --> 01:02:32.739
Thank you so much.
1291
01:02:33.480 --> 01:02:35.699
And it was a great show, and I'll put the
1292
01:02:36.119 --> 01:02:39.409
link out. later on today. And thank you so much
1293
01:02:39.469 --> 01:02:41.909
for listening, everybody. And thank you too, for coming on.
1294
01:02:41.949 --> 01:02:44.050
It was really fun. Have a great day.
1295
01:02:44.550 --> 01:02:46.219
Bye-bye. Thanks everybody.
1296
01:02:46.239 --> 01:02:46.780
Bye-bye.
1297
01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:46.920
Bye.