WEBVTT
00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:04.799
What does it take to make workshops work?
00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:09.359
And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and needs to results?
00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:16.480
My name is Miriam Hattnus, and with the Workshops Work Podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work.
00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:20.399
Today with me on the show is a returning guest, Rob Evans.
00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:28.000
And actually, this show is a little bit special because I initially recorded it from a new podcast on professionalism.
00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:41.520
But since Rob is such a master facilitator and we covered a lot of facilitation practice in this conversation, I thought that the workshops work crowd will actually appreciate it as much.
00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:50.240
We speak about the not knowing of a facilitator and just surrender to that, how to deal with the emotional energy in the room.
00:00:50.560 --> 00:01:01.600
And last but not least, also how we can learn to surrender to the fact that even facilitators are human beings that sometimes simply need to rest.
00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:03.920
I'm sure you'll enjoy the show.
00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:05.599
Thanks for listening.
00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:09.359
Bob, it's so nice to have you back.
00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:10.319
Welcome.
00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:11.200
Thank you.
00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:20.879
I just start with the invitation for you to share a story when you have been unprofessional.
00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:29.200
Is it okay if it's a story in a professional setting when I was somewhat semi-or even unprofessional?
00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:31.439
Oh, this would be a beautiful story.
00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:31.920
Okay.
00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:32.719
All right.
00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:35.920
The year is uh 1996.
00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:46.879
I had just moved over to build up the European operations for a US-based consulting company that was focused on total quality management.
00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:55.359
Shortly after I got there, my boss said to me something like, Rob, we're in some uh financial difficulties here.
00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:58.560
If you need any money over there, sell something.
00:01:59.200 --> 00:01:59.760
Total.
00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:01.760
Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:05.280
I moved my family to the UK and I'm cut off.
00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:08.719
Well, not completely cut off, but yeah, you get them you get the message.
00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:09.599
Okay.
00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:17.120
So I got an invitation out of the blue to come talk to the engineering group at Lufthansa.
00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:30.159
A guy has worked with them, had heard about me doing some other things, and uh they invited me to present TQM with the possibility of being their total quality management consultant.
00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:34.879
And I went, all right, the odds of this playing out are very small.
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.159
So basically I said, So you're an airline, right?
00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:41.759
Okay, you get me a ticket and I'll see you in Hamburg.
00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:43.360
And so we did.
00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:58.479
I walk into a room, the 20 guys heading up Lufthansa Technik, Lufthansa's engineering group are seated in a the usual U-shaped table, and I come in with my little briefcase full of overheads.
00:02:58.639 --> 00:02:59.680
Remember overheads?
00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:00.560
Oh my goodness.
00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:06.400
I had overheads and a flip chart and a marker, and I do my song and dance, and I'm doing my thing.
00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:12.240
And uh I was kind of like lighthearted because it seemed so unlikely.
00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:13.919
I wanted to get to know these guys.
00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:14.719
Who are you guys?
00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:19.280
Uh, you run a wonderful airline, you're superior engineers.
00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:21.039
What's with you?
00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:26.560
So I do my thing, and then they say, uh, Herr Evans, would you please step out of the room?
00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:27.360
Okay.
00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:32.400
I'm on the hall for maybe 10 minutes, and then they invite me back in.
00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:37.759
And in that very German way, they're all rapping on the table, which is applauding me.
00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:46.879
And they said, Herr Evans, we have decided you will be our total quality management consultant.
00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:49.199
I just started laughing.
00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:53.039
I said, Okay, I need to ask you a question.
00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:57.759
Why would a great German airline want to pick an American?
00:03:57.919 --> 00:03:59.360
You know, I'm an American, right?
00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:03.919
Why would you pick an American to be your quality consultant?
00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:08.879
And they said, Well, to be honest, we would rather have picked a German.
00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:15.039
But of all the ones we interviewed, you were the only one who had any fun.
00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:20.079
And like I had no idea, I had no idea that was a criteria.
00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:22.160
And apparently they didn't either.
00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:31.279
But there was something about the light-heartedness of it that allowed them to overcome some of their own bickering.
00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:33.600
German companies love to bicker.
00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:39.839
They had their own internal debate about what are we going to do, what should we do, boom, boom, boom.
00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:44.959
So there was something about the humor that helped them come to an agreement.
00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:48.399
And weirdly, an agreement about me.
00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:49.519
And so we did.
00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:51.199
And I worked all throughout the company.
00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:55.199
We had a great project, uh, great results.
00:04:55.759 --> 00:05:00.079
And that put the company on the map in Europe.
00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:04.240
And from that, we were able to build out a great company.
00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:19.519
So I don't know that it was strictly unprofessional, but the the light-heartedness is certainly not what you would expect from a professional interview with engineers, with German engineers.
00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:22.399
And I would be What have I got to lose?
00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:23.680
What have I got to lose?
00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:27.439
Yeah, I would be curious to to learn more about that.
00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:33.519
Um, how conscious you were of the did you take a conscious risk?
00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:36.079
Were you aware of the lightheartedness?
00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:36.879
Oh, yeah.
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:40.000
Uh, that's it's hard for me not to be lighthearted.
00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:44.079
So that is the risk you get when you invite me in there.
00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:45.680
So is it risky?
00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:48.079
Uh yeah.
00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:50.720
I mean, human humor doesn't always work.
00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:56.720
And cross-cultural humor has more of a chance of failing than otherwise.
00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:00.000
What makes it less of a risk for me?
00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:01.680
So maybe it's not a risk.
00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:03.680
Maybe we need to find something scarier.
00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:10.800
But what makes it less of a risk for me is uh uh warmth and heart.
00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:14.160
Now that alone is unprofessional.
00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:21.360
Um, to come now exactly as in the as the uh English saying goes, with your heart on your sleeve.
00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:31.519
But to be willing to be warmly humorous rather than caustically or sarcastically uh humorous, I think is more of a risk.
00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:33.920
Sarcasm is safe.
00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:35.040
Yeah.
00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:36.959
Let's make fun of that guy over there.
00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:37.839
Oh, okay.
00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:40.959
But then when is it my turn for you to make fun of me when I'm over there?
00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:43.600
That's the downside to it.
00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:46.480
And and warm humor is just warm humor.
00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:48.879
You know, like our conversation.
00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:52.079
Do they know we have conversations before this starts?
00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:55.120
Which probably I'm gonna like you can let them know.
00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:58.319
I'm gonna br I'm gonna break the third wall here and let them know.
00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:00.639
We had a conversation before we start.
00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:09.920
And uh the idea of warmth and heart, I really think is is the essence of the human.
00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:19.439
So if if if unprofessional is roughly defined at being more human than otherwise in a professional setting, I just made that up.
00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:22.399
But that sounds like it's what you're talking about.
00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:24.879
Are there risks in that?
00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:25.600
Totally.
00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:26.560
Absolutely.
00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:32.720
I mean, because then if it doesn't work or you're rejected, it can land a little harder.
00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:38.240
A little, a bunch of stuff can bounce off the armor unless you take the armor off.
00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:40.639
And it bounces off you.
00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:42.639
And that's just a different deal.
00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:48.160
So the light-heartedness showing a part of yourself that is truly you.
00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:48.560
Yeah.
00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:54.560
And then the rejection is the rejection of you and not the rejection of a professional version of yourself.
00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:56.959
It's but it's not the little the hand in the puppet.
00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:02.560
It's not the little puppet version that I that I uh would otherwise uh, you know.
00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:02.879
Yeah.
00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:03.920
Here, hello.
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:05.759
I'm here to talk about total quality.
00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:18.879
Um the combination of humor and uh being willing to follow my own curiosity seems somehow unprofessional in as it's mostly defined.
00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:20.480
What makes you say that?
00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:23.439
Professionals have mastered, well, I don't know.
00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:25.839
Let's let's let's talk about it.
00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:37.919
Professionals think they're on the scene because they've mastered some craft or body of knowledge or a technical skill, and they're getting paid for that.
00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:40.480
So, what do you mean you don't know what to do?
00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:47.039
I'm paying you to know what to do, uh, is the dilemma many consultants find themselves in.
00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:57.600
And the dilemma consulting finds itself in, and why I love what I do as opposed to that, is it's based on curiosity and discovery.
00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:06.960
What I do is based on curiosity and discovery, which can be very unnerving for a client when I'm so confident we'll find an answer and I don't know what it is.
00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:12.559
I don't know what it is, but I know together we're gonna find that answer.
00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:17.279
One, because we have to, and two, because we brought the right people together.
00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:23.679
Would you say that to a client that you don't know the answer yet, but you're sure that you'll find it?
00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:24.639
Totally.
00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:25.840
Oh, absolutely.
00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:27.440
I'd say, look, I don't know the answer.
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:31.519
We got to put together a room of people out of which the answer will emerge.
00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:39.360
I know how to get us there, and I know how to hold the room together when people want to bail because they don't have an answer yet.
00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:41.200
I can do that.
00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:44.240
And we'll hold it together long enough to get the answer.
00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:46.080
How do clients react to that?
00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:47.360
That's a great question.
00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:48.960
You should probably ask them.
00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:53.279
They usually still hire me, which is probably a good thing.
00:09:53.519 --> 00:10:02.639
They know that I've gotten a lot of people into the promised land through this process, into a promised land better than the one they came there to get.
00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:09.840
And I can put my clients to be in touch with clients who will vouch for that.
00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:18.720
Along the way, I think when client said to me, Rob, your confidence is excruciating.
00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:30.960
And uh, I think by that they meant they were semi-panicked because I I lead large group workshops, you know, and your uh your listeners.
00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:43.840
There's 50, 70, 100 people in the room, all on the basis of some individual or group that said, come together to do this seemingly impossible thing.
00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:52.000
And as one of the top guys at Ford once said to me, and forgive the language, he said, Rob, I'm bringing 90 people together for four days.
00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:53.759
This is a top four guy.
00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:56.720
He got a multi-billion dollar budget.
00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:00.320
I'm bringing 90 people together for four days.
00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:04.000
If this doesn't work, I'm gonna look like a shithead.
00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:06.080
And I I just started the lab.
00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:15.039
I said, Carlos, given who you are, if you end up looking like a shithead, you're going to kill me.
00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:16.639
So we're here together.
00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.559
All right, we're in this together, and we're gonna get through this together.
00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:26.320
And though there's at least one or two times where I'm just gonna say, you gotta trust me on this.
00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:28.639
And you can trust me or not.
00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:30.240
It's easier if you do.
00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:31.919
It's easier if you do.
00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:34.159
And he became a fast friend afterwards.
00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:37.279
We know we would call each other up just to see how things are going.
00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:45.759
But it's that that element of risk uh that feels unprofessional to managers who are facing that risk.
00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:47.279
They would like to manage risk.
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:50.399
I feel that's part of their job, is managing risks for the company.
00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:52.399
And they're right, they're right, of course.
00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:56.399
But sometimes it's risky to manage risk, really manage risk.
00:11:57.039 --> 00:12:01.840
Playing it safe is not a good way to manage risk in every case.
00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:07.200
Doing what we've done, where do you think those risks came from?
00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:11.519
They came from the fact that we've done it that way forever.
00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:12.159
Okay.
00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:16.399
So to change that, ah boy, that's a different deal.
00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:18.399
Because otherwise, it's funny.
00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:21.440
If we play it safe, we always have the excuse.
00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.399
I couldn't have known it better because in the past it has worked.
00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:25.279
Exactly.
00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:25.440
Right.
00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:26.159
Exactly right.
00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:29.120
Then we're back at the image of the armor.
00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:33.679
Then if it if it lands, it lands on the armor.
00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:39.120
If I try something that hasn't been tried before, yes, it lands without the armor.
00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:46.240
And uh 30, 40 years ago, there was a saying in management that IBM sales consultants would use.
00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:51.279
They would say, Ah, my friend, no one ever got fired for buying IBM.
00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:56.720
Well, it turned out not to be true after a while, but it was a great line at that time.
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:06.799
Just go with me, and that manages your professional risk in selling this internally to your organization, yeah, which is always a big deal.
00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:08.240
Yeah.
00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:20.159
And what I hear in the in the story was taking the risk and taking the your client by the hand, say, okay, we both don't know how to do that, and we'll do it anyway.
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:21.840
Something like that, right?
00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.080
I can still hear this lightheartedness in that.
00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:31.440
And I would love to understand what you mean by that.
00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:39.360
It seems like your superpower, where you walk into a high-risk situation with a light heart.
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:46.960
What do we see or hear Rob do or say when he is performing with a light heart?
00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:48.879
Or being with a light heart.
00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:52.080
Probably that's a great that's a thank you for that.
00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:53.600
I think that's exactly right.
00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.440
I don't think you can you can do lightheart.
00:13:58.399 --> 00:13:59.519
Then you're performing.
00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:00.879
Right?
00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:05.120
And you've got a pretty good nose for when somebody's performing.
00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:08.080
You know, it just people are performing all the time.
00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:11.679
We know when we don't believe it completely, right?
00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:14.320
If it's if it's performative.
00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:16.480
In fact, that's a pejorative now.
00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.159
Uh it's performative.
00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.159
You're just going through the motions.
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:29.759
The the posts people put online are so painfully perform that it almost is worth reading anymore.
00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:41.440
Because it's I'm showing you a version of my life and my work, and man, and everything's always great, which is why your podcast is so brilliant and why people tune in.
00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:46.000
Because they know they know it's not like that on all the time.
00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:50.320
They know it's not like the last guy's last LinkedIn post.
00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:53.519
Hopefully, they they just know it.
00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:57.039
Yeah, but how do you be what you know?
00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:00.240
That's that's the that's the question you're asking.
00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:03.519
How do I be when I know?
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:07.279
I I actually don't know, but I know how to know.
00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:14.080
I know how to learn, and I know how to hold a group together while we learn together.
00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:22.799
What is uh in my wife's wonderful phrase, what is longing to happen in this situation.
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:29.919
So it's we we're kidding each other about always going kind of lofty and woo-woo.
00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:34.399
Uh before see, this is what we talk about before we get online with, well, you know, we always go up.
00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:43.679
So this is a little like that, because what's longing to happen is tapping into what's really real in a group and in yourself.
00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:48.080
And what's longing to happen for me is not to be fake.
00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:56.799
And to when I then hear myself being fake anyway, going, hmm, hmm, wow, I wonder what that was about.
00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:00.000
And uh what's what's realer?
00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:01.519
What's more real than that?
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:06.080
No, it's not like there's any there's only one of us, there's only one person.
00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:14.559
Each of us is like a like a gem with many different facets, and many different Robs, many different Miriams.
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:23.200
And some are more I was almost said acceptable, expectable in a in a professional situation.
00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:24.960
But the others are there.
00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:30.559
We all know the other the the the the the other facets of the person are there.
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:37.840
So let's just turn that around, see what what what kind of light comes through that facet into this situation.
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:38.960
Yeah.
00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:49.279
And then and still you used the word fake, so there is a distinction between the different facets of us that are all true.
00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:50.080
Yeah.
00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:57.759
And I think of course we are adjusting our language, our being to the context.
00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:02.480
I think that's part of emotional intelligence or social intelligence.
00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:11.759
And then there is the code switching in the maybe almost dangerous sense where it becomes fake.
00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:13.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:26.720
When you're when you're obviously code switching and adopting language and adopting a stance and a persona and all of that, it it becomes we we call it code switching because we can see when people do it.
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.880
Uh and we and we get the inauthenticity of it.
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:31.680
Yeah.
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:36.240
And I love that you mentioned that you catch yourself.
00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:37.920
Maybe this was in the past.
00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:39.759
I do catch myself.
00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:44.799
Um usually out of an insecurity.
00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:54.160
I there are some podcast episodes that I listen back to, and I'm sitting there with excruciating shame.
00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:59.200
Ah, no, no, I did that on oh, and it's oh, it's out there.
00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:04.880
Because I can hear how I am just performing the smart ass.
00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:11.359
Although, of course, I have no idea what I talk about compared to the person I'm interviewing.
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:15.599
And then the question is, is that a part of me or is that fake?
00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:17.359
Well, that's a great question.
00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:22.000
And if it is a part of you, uh is that okay?
00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:25.200
Are there are there any facets that's just not okay?
00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.240
There's some that I'm ashamed of for sure.
00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:28.880
Okay.
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:30.240
What does okay mean?
00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:31.200
Okay to who?
00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:32.000
Who?
00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:33.039
Right?
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:33.440
Yeah.
00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:35.279
Okay in this situation?
00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:35.920
Yeah.
00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:39.920
There's some things I do that are are not uh helpful.
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:41.119
St.
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:54.240
Paul in one of the letters to one of the churches said something like he said in Aramaic, so I don't know what he said, uh, or Greek, but he said something like, uh, all things are permissible, but not all things are helpful.
00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:02.799
And a version of that that I like modern days is Suzuki Roshi's, you're perfect just the way you are.
00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:04.799
And you could use a little work.
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:12.720
So that paradox of uh that's the paradox of of authenticity, I think.
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:14.319
Yes.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:22.079
And why you were speaking, would no, let me first ask you, what do you mean by the paradox of authenticity?
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:24.640
Well, who's the one that's being authentic?
00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:27.200
Who's being authentic?
00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:32.000
Honestly, Miriam, we it when we were talking about facilitation and another thing.
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:42.799
Um, the most powerful lesson I ever got in facilitation was working in a jail, doing a performance in a jail with my teacher, brother blue.
00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:44.640
Now, let me show you, brother Blue.
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.799
Brother Blue is an African-American man, was an African-American man.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:56.400
Brother Blue, you're showing a picture of an African-American man with a butterfly on his palm.
00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:02.079
With a butterfly, very colorful, uniform barefoot.
00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:02.960
Barefoot.
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:07.039
We were doing uh a performance in a prison, and I would drum for him.
00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:13.839
I heard the the rhythm in his stories, and I was so taken with this guy.
00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:24.559
I went out and bought a drum, big old plumba drum, and just showed up one day on the streets of Cambridge, Massachusetts, where he would tell stories and just started drumming with him.
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:27.759
And we became good friends.
00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:30.720
He was actually my spiritual godfather in so many ways.
00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.680
He's the he uh the actual godparent to my children.
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:47.759
He's passed now, he's gone on to uh some more blessed realm, or he came back to be brother blue again, some other place, because what he was here for was help people find their own story.
00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:56.160
So we're we're on stage in a prison, and it's like all hell is breaking loose because who the hell is this guy?
00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:05.440
The the the uh African Americans are going, they were a little embarrassed by this guy dancing around looking like that, telling stories, and they're trying to be so tough.
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:10.160
And the white guys are going, what is that white guy doing on stage with him?
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:16.000
And the African American guys, all the Hispanic guys are going, when they kill the white guy, can we have his drum?
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:22.640
It's like and I'm I'm uh just going, What are you doing here, Rob?
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.799
Did you why did what are you what were you thinking?
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:28.799
Did you come to save these people?
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:30.240
Well, forget about that.
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:36.880
If you're here in some kind of uh liberal guilty thing, you're you're gonna get killed.
00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:43.359
I mean, you're it not physically killed, maybe, but psychologically they're gonna rip you apart.
00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:46.240
I've worked enough in jails to know that's what happens.
00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:52.960
It's ripping people down if you can, because it's better than being ripped down yourself and you know, ripped or rip E.
00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:56.000
You ripper or rip E, you pick.
00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:57.599
Well, that's the only choice.
00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:58.480
Yeah.
00:21:58.960 --> 00:21:59.359
Ripper.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.720
Um so that's the choice people make.
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:15.440
What happened to me on stage, Miriam, is I felt like uh the the thought came to me, if you're here for you, you don't have a right to be here, and they have a right to do whatever they want to you.
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:23.599
If you're here for some higher purpose, which Brother Blue was, then get out of your own way and just be here.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:34.400
And I felt like uh I'd lived in England and I'd seen old cowhorn lanterns.
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:40.400
So cheaper than glass, so you would make lanterns out of animal horns.
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:52.559
So that it's they're translucent, but to really let light out, you one of the doors would swing open so you could shine the direct light on whatever it is you want to illuminate.
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.119
Well, that's what I felt happen in me.
00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:04.799
I felt something happened in my heart that swung open a door, and I felt like there was a light coming through me that wasn't me.
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:07.200
And that's okay.
00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:08.880
And that was a good thing.
00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:13.680
All I had to do was get out of the way, get Rob out of the way.
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.240
And so what is really authentic?
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:29.599
I think what is really authentic about all of us is that inner light that is not ours, and it is ours.
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.839
It's in us, but also through us.
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:41.680
That's what's really authentic, and anything else is just one of the sides of the lantern, to use another kind of facet metaphor.
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:42.240
Yeah.
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:57.599
But we do have the capacity of getting out of the way and and letting light come through us that really warms and illuminates it's not us, it warms and illuminates those who are around us.
00:23:58.079 --> 00:23:59.599
Well, no, that's worth doing.
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:03.440
So that's all by way of what's authentic.
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:06.400
The light is authentic.
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:11.440
And anything else we just need to recognize is a form.
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:16.960
Uh a lot of spiritual traditions would say an illusion, a dream.
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:25.680
Okay, it can be a good dream, can be a bad dream, but what's really real is the divinity of all of us.
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:41.119
My my my uh wife's late husband, I went to divinity school with, curiously enough, that's another story, would say God is that which is greater than all and present in each.
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:43.359
So God language kind of puts people off.
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:52.160
So the divine, the sacred, the the really real is greater than all but present in each.
00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:53.759
And that's authentic.
00:24:54.079 --> 00:25:05.039
So when you pull all the all the shields, all the protections, all the wounds, all the ego, pull all that back.
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:08.079
Yeah, well, which is really hard to do.
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:09.039
That's a lifetime.
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:18.880
And then it sounds, and I think that's um something that I have come to the conclusion too that being authentic is the most difficult thing ever.
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:20.720
Oh, I know.
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:22.559
Being truly us.
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:27.119
Um because it's then we're back to the beginning of your story.
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:34.079
That's where you're so vulnerable because every every criticism is on us.
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:35.200
Right.
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:41.599
And how can I mean can you be authentic without feeling you need to be loyal to who you were a second ago?
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:43.359
Ooh.
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.559
Do I have to defend who I was at yesterday?
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:51.440
I'm not even that guy anymore.
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:52.400
But we do.
00:25:52.559 --> 00:26:03.599
I mean, we feel obliged to to we we feel we need the continuity of a person, a professional persona, for example.
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:12.720
You know, I can I can be Rob the Consultant, I could put that on, I can give you chapter and births, I got a CV up on the web, I got blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:16.400
I got a LinkedIn profile, I got all that good stuff.
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:20.880
But do I have to be that when I show up?
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:26.240
People want to check that out to see if I've shown up anyplace else and they didn't kick me out.
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:29.039
Yeah, once or twice, they didn't kick me out.
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:30.319
Uh, okay.
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:34.079
But then I then do I have to show up like that every time?
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:36.160
I hope not.
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:42.079
I think I now can put my finger on the light-heartedness.
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:50.240
And if I read it correctly, then it comes from this radical self-acceptance.
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:52.400
Of a higher self.
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:53.359
Right.
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:58.640
And and the the one that was here doing the best he can.
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:16.559
Because I think only when you totally self-accept yourself, and that's what I hear in what you describe is hey, I might maybe who I was a minute ago is not the same person I am today, and trusting the inner light, trusting your intuition.
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:20.960
And then you don't have to take yourself so seriously.
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:24.720
I wish I remembered that more.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:27.279
Send me a copy of this.
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:32.319
I may need to watch this sometimes because you know I'll wake up and and I'll be an absolute worm.
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.160
I'm like, oh my god, I can't do anything.
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:35.599
Right, I'm on and on and on.
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:39.759
Everybody goes through that cycle of up and down and up and down and up and down.
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:44.559
And and when I say lighthearted, I mean actual light.
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:47.279
Ah, you mean the light as you describe it.
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:49.920
Not just my heart, isn't all heavy and weighed.
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:56.480
No, it's light-hearted, which is not something I've ever put together before.
00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:58.240
So thank you very much for that.
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:05.440
So, as I understand, this light-heartedness still shows up in all the work you do.
00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:07.920
And that's in my best work.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:09.440
Yeah, in my best work.
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:16.000
What are the factors that might turn that lead to you turning off the light?
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:16.640
Great.
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:18.319
That's a great question.
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:20.400
Or closing the door.
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:21.599
Yeah.
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:38.160
For me, often in my work, it's a f it's just a sense of professional responsibility when I feel I'm required to be responsible for something, and I don't do it as consciously as I would like.
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:40.079
I get cranky.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:50.400
Or I'm I'm uh critical of the work of people around me in ways that don't recognize they're probably doing the best they can that day, too.
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:56.160
You know, it I'm sitting here at my desk, it's early in the morning, I'm still being caffeinated.
00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:57.200
You know, it's good.
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:02.000
I just had a hot tub, I had a swim, and then I rushed in to get ready to come here.
00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:06.960
It's been a good morning, and I'm not tired.
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:20.400
So here I'm 74 years old, and what I discover is working uh 16-hour days takes a different toll than it did, and it actually took a toll when I started doing it when I was 45.
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:22.880
I just could ignore it.
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:29.440
The jet lag gets me harder and longer than it used to.
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:47.200
So fatigue is a is a thing, managing the physical body uh staying in shape, uh, dealing with the natural inevitable degradation of the body that happens over time, no matter what you do.
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:59.839
Uh just accepting that and and um for me, Miriam, factoring that in so that I'm not you you've heard of Hangri, where you're angry because you're hungry.
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:00.480
Yeah.
00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:03.119
There's probably a tangry version of that.
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:04.960
You're angry because you're tired.
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:08.400
I think new parents can write books about that, right?
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:09.200
Good point.
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:14.160
I mean, you have people who have little watching this who have infants at home.
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:15.680
God bless you.
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:17.200
I remember that.
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:21.039
I have kids with grandkids, I remember it.
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:23.759
And boy, am I glad to turn the grandkids?
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:29.279
I love my grandchildren, and I'm not sorry when they go back to their parents because I need a nap.
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:30.319
Yeah.
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:41.440
And you chose the word endured, and enduring endurance is something that is such high, highly regarded.
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:42.880
Oh, that's professionals.
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:44.000
We can endure.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:49.200
Uh takes a the old time excumeral takes a licking and keeps on ticking, you know.
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:49.839
Yeah.
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:53.839
What price did you pay for the 16-hour stays?
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:55.279
Great question.
00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:58.880
So probably learning what price I paid.
00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:19.359
Uh it it brought me a so being able to be physically uh, I could take a lot of damage physically and still in the moment let the light come through and be energized by the group and energized by the situation.
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:30.079
So extroverts, as an extrovert, maybe that's an extrovert strategy that uh allows me to now.
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.119
When I say be on, it sounds kind of performative, doesn't it?
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:45.039
But on in the sense of turned on and still the light coming through when it's required, and then when we're done, base plant.
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:55.200
You know, it's like oh, exhausted, or even knowing that I need to, and I've been doing this forever, don't tell my clients all the time, but I would set up venues.
00:31:55.279 --> 00:32:06.319
And when I led the accelerated solutions environments for Cap Gemini and uh Ernston Young before that, we would always have a secret room in the venues that we built and created.
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:23.200
And we when we could, that would be the nap room where the crews who started at 6:30 in the morning and might go until 11 o'clock at night and then come back in to start at 6:30, could disappear and take a nap during the day.
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:25.440
Why did it have to be secret?
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:31.200
Why indeed, because we were also pushing our clients, we should have given nap rooms to them too.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:33.039
How unprofessional.
00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:41.440
How unprofessional, how thoughtless of us to make give ourselves accordances that we didn't, affordances that we didn't give them.
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:44.000
That's I I thought the other way around.
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:48.319
How unprofessional to even think of a nap room that people might need the nap.
00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:50.160
Well, good point.
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:51.920
Maybe that's why it was secret.
00:32:52.079 --> 00:33:00.319
We'd often have big stuffed animals around our centers for various reasons, one of which is they made good pillows when you took them into the nap room.
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.839
And having a pillow kind of gave it away, you know, it was that good.
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:07.920
So, but you could take a stuffed animal and for a while.
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:12.079
So your question was what did the endurance uh cost me?
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:21.599
I think part of what it cost was the fiction that my body didn't have its own requirements that I might have listened to a little more carefully.
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:30.480
And that when one is just gritting through it and enduring it, you kind of turn off the messages from your body, don't you?
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:35.119
You just go, I'm I'm sorry, I don't have time for that right now.
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:40.319
We got to design this new module on the fly because the last one was didn't get the results we wanted.
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:42.079
So we got to do something different than we thought.
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:43.279
Oh that.
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:50.079
So it's um endurance is an override of the body, of messages from the body.
00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:54.640
Slow down, take a break, sit down.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:56.880
Will you just sit down for a minute?
00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:59.440
Meditate for 10 minutes, see what happens.
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:02.319
Can't gotta go, gotta keep at it.
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:06.640
And so the the distance from the the reaction, what's authentic?
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:12.639
I mean, what's most most authentic is not I think, therefore I am, it's I've got a body, therefore I am.
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:21.840
And curiously, most of our brain is designed to run our body, according to Michael Pollan and his new book on consciousness.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:26.239
It reminds us that most of the brain, it's all about getting keeping the body going.
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:28.400
Or does the thinking happen?
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:30.079
Good question.
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:31.920
Interesting question.
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:34.639
Not clear yet.
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:36.559
Not clear yet.
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.840
Do we think it all happens inside the skull?
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:42.400
Not really, not anymore.
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:43.920
Body knows it all.
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:45.519
The body knows the score.
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:46.000
That's right.
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:47.280
The body keeps the score.
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:53.360
Yeah, the body knows, then the emotions perceive, and finally the brain comes along and makes sense out of it.
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:55.360
The brain is always the last to know.
00:34:55.679 --> 00:35:01.920
How present are emotions in your work and the work that you do?
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:02.639
Yeah.
00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:07.760
They're very present, and I I would put it, I would frame it a little differently.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.639
And not just emotions, but energy.
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:21.119
The energy of the room is the emotions of the room, the the the aggregate average emotions of the room, but managing the emotions of the room is a big deal.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:23.679
Because that's how come that's how people change.
00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:26.000
People change because you tuck them into it.
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:27.679
No, they don't.
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:32.079
People change because they have an experience, an emotional experience.
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:34.880
The change is necessary and possible.
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:43.440
And why is it that it's easier to communicate about energy than about the accumulated emotions in the room?
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:46.159
Because it's so unprofessional.
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:47.519
Are you kidding?
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:50.559
To talk about the emotions of a company?
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:54.559
Well, you can talk about the energy, and it sounds vaguely scientific.
00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:56.079
Unless you're from California.
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:58.719
And then it sounds, well, that's pretty woo-woo, Rob.
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:00.400
You're from Moran County, aren't you?
00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:03.280
Oh, of course he's talking about energy.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:08.079
It's it's a cloak in a way, but it's also more than just the emotions.
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.760
If emotions are I'm feeling good, I'm feeling bad, or I'm angry, I'm happy.
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:12.880
Those are emotions.
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:21.199
But there's something at a more fundamental level than the emotional flip show.
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.360
Emotions are are constant, they're fleeting in a way.
00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:36.239
And there's something more substantial about energy that are maybe the source of all emotions reflect the body's energy of one kind or another.
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:39.519
Emotion being energy in motion.
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:41.760
Energy in motion.
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:42.880
That's very good.
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:44.480
I like that.
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:45.599
I might use that.
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:46.719
May I use that?
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:48.159
I'll give you full credit.
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:49.039
I didn't invent it.
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:52.159
Well, yeah, I know, but I didn't hear it from whoever did.
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:52.960
I heard it from you.
00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:54.880
So I'm giving you credit.
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:58.800
You're gonna go in my book of black quotes.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:00.880
My black book of quotes.
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:03.519
Um, you want to know what you're coming after?
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:04.159
Yes, please.
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:13.840
Says the success of an intervention depends on the inner state of the intervener.
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:15.760
That's good.
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:17.199
Somehow related.
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:18.079
I know.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:21.519
So this is this is this you came right at the right time.
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:28.159
Wiza uh Hester said, if I'm not in on the takeoff, don't expect me on the landing.
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:30.960
Oh, that's good, right?
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:32.320
Yeah, beautiful.
00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:38.159
And then my friend William Muri said, if it's predictable, it's preventable.
00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:42.960
He's talking about international conflict, but it works all sorts of places.
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:45.360
If it's predictable, it's preventable.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:47.119
Yes, yes.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.000
And you get and next comes Miriam.
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:53.280
Emotion is energy in motion.
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:55.840
I could go on and on there.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:38:02.239
I still have a very long list of topics that we haven't even touched upon, but I would be very curious.
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:03.280
I hope that you'll be back.
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:06.400
I go off on something.
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:07.679
But it's beautiful.
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:16.159
And I would like to close with a question: what is an unprofessional advice that you would give to the listeners?
00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:18.639
Well, it has something to do with fun.
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:22.800
I would put advice about fun in a bunch of different ways.
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:32.800
One of our axioms in the design shop world that Matt and Gail Taylor came up with is if you can't have fun with the problem, you'll never solve it.
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:40.800
And I would use that, I would put that axiom out there and say, look, we're not here to have fun, but are you willing to have some fun?
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:46.639
And I'll do it in a kind of a teasing way and invite them to think about that.
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:50.559
So if you can't have fun with the problem, you'll never solve it.
00:38:51.360 --> 00:39:04.000
Um and uh my wife, Carolyn Buckloose, who invented something called the decade game, as one of her axioms is if you're not having fun, it's because you're playing somebody else's game.
00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:06.000
That's good too, huh?
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:08.800
So have fun.
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:10.639
Try having fun.
00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:13.599
Try having a little more fun on a scale of one to ten.
00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:16.000
How much fun did you have yesterday?
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:21.440
Okay, what would it take to increase by one point today?
00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:25.599
How could you have just a little more fun today?
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:30.079
You don't want to push it, you know, you don't want to burn out the system having too much fun.
00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:31.519
But how could you increase?
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:35.599
How could you increase your level of fun just a little bit today?
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:36.559
Yeah.
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:41.920
And by adding, by making it a little bit of our own game.
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:47.599
By asking, whose game am I playing here?
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:48.079
Yeah.
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:50.159
See, that's what I love about you.
00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:52.079
That's why you're doing this.
00:39:52.159 --> 00:40:08.400
I mean, you're doing this podcast for all kinds of reasons, but one of the things I take as a good reason to do this podcast is you invite us to remember that whatever we think professional means, it's probably somebody else's game.
00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:10.239
Yes.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:12.719
Probably somebody else's game.
00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:15.119
What if it were your game?
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:16.960
What would that be like?
00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:18.239
Wouldn't that be cool?
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:22.800
It beautifully connects back to the story with which you started.
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:26.000
How do you see that connection?
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:30.800
That you walked into the womb, you didn't expect to get the job.
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:35.840
You were lighthearted, with an open heart, but also with the fun.
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:38.239
Having fun with it, joy with it.
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:43.519
Um, since you didn't expect anything from them, you were playing your own game.
00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:44.639
Good point.
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:51.840
And this left such an impression that they chose you over everyone else, over the German engineers.
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:53.760
Who knew?
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:54.559
As they say.
00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:55.440
Who knew?
00:40:55.760 --> 00:41:00.400
And what I find the most remarkable in that is that they even admitted it.
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:01.440
They did.
00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:05.920
They didn't find all the reasons why you would outperform the others.
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:07.280
No, you.
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:08.639
You bring fun.
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:09.280
Yeah.
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:11.599
Turns out they were fun too.
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:15.679
They might not have admitted that either at the time.
00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:22.079
You were it's always it's always a blessing to be in conversation with you.
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:38.320
Well, I feel the same way, Miriam, and I know that your your viewers feel the same way about you and your uh persistence, your insistence on moving to conversations that matter.
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:42.639
And that's why I love uh talking with you.
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:47.039
Because I feel like we don't it sounds like we don't have fun.
00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:48.400
We don't mess around, Miriam.
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:52.480
We get right to the the the funnest stuff.
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:57.519
And what but and this by that I mean uh the most true stuff.
00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:12.320
There's a you have a quality and you bring a quality to your conversations that invites the people you're talking with to really step up to what's true for them and cut the BS.
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:14.079
I really appreciate that about you.
00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:15.119
Means a lot.
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:16.559
Until next time.
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:17.519
Yes.
00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:22.639
Thank you for staying tuned and for listening until the very end.
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:27.599
I hope that you found the inspiration and the wisdom that you are looking for.
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:38.559
And I hope that you will subscribe to the show so that you never miss any of the interviews with another inspiring facilitator from across the world.
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:48.960
I'm devoted to continue this podcast and to deliver weekly an episode that maintains the quality that you expect and you deserve.
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:58.800
And if you would like to help me to maintain this quality and to keep the podcast free, please help us visit workstop.org.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:06.400
Thank you so much.
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:09.760
I hope to be in your ES next week.
00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:04.799
What does it take to make workshops work?
00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:09.359
And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and needs to results?
00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:16.480
My name is Miriam Hattnus, and with the Workshops Work Podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work.
00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:20.399
Today with me on the show is a returning guest, Rob Evans.
00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:28.000
And actually, this show is a little bit special because I initially recorded it from a new podcast on professionalism.
00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:41.520
But since Rob is such a master facilitator and we covered a lot of facilitation practice in this conversation, I thought that the workshops work crowd will actually appreciate it as much.
00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:50.240
We speak about the not knowing of a facilitator and just surrender to that, how to deal with the emotional energy in the room.
00:00:50.560 --> 00:01:01.600
And last but not least, also how we can learn to surrender to the fact that even facilitators are human beings that sometimes simply need to rest.
00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:03.920
I'm sure you'll enjoy the show.
00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:05.599
Thanks for listening.
00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:09.359
Bob, it's so nice to have you back.
00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:10.319
Welcome.
00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:11.200
Thank you.
00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:20.879
I just start with the invitation for you to share a story when you have been unprofessional.
00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:29.200
Is it okay if it's a story in a professional setting when I was somewhat semi-or even unprofessional?
00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:31.439
Oh, this would be a beautiful story.
00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:31.920
Okay.
00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:32.719
All right.
00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:35.920
The year is uh 1996.
00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:46.879
I had just moved over to build up the European operations for a US-based consulting company that was focused on total quality management.
00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:55.359
Shortly after I got there, my boss said to me something like, Rob, we're in some uh financial difficulties here.
00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:58.560
If you need any money over there, sell something.
00:01:59.200 --> 00:01:59.760
Total.
00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:01.760
Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:05.280
I moved my family to the UK and I'm cut off.
00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:08.719
Well, not completely cut off, but yeah, you get them you get the message.
00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:09.599
Okay.
00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:17.120
So I got an invitation out of the blue to come talk to the engineering group at Lufthansa.
00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:30.159
A guy has worked with them, had heard about me doing some other things, and uh they invited me to present TQM with the possibility of being their total quality management consultant.
00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:34.879
And I went, all right, the odds of this playing out are very small.
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.159
So basically I said, So you're an airline, right?
00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:41.759
Okay, you get me a ticket and I'll see you in Hamburg.
00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:43.360
And so we did.
00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:58.479
I walk into a room, the 20 guys heading up Lufthansa Technik, Lufthansa's engineering group are seated in a the usual U-shaped table, and I come in with my little briefcase full of overheads.
00:02:58.639 --> 00:02:59.680
Remember overheads?
00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:00.560
Oh my goodness.
00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:06.400
I had overheads and a flip chart and a marker, and I do my song and dance, and I'm doing my thing.
00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:12.240
And uh I was kind of like lighthearted because it seemed so unlikely.
00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:13.919
I wanted to get to know these guys.
00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:14.719
Who are you guys?
00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:19.280
Uh, you run a wonderful airline, you're superior engineers.
00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:21.039
What's with you?
00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:26.560
So I do my thing, and then they say, uh, Herr Evans, would you please step out of the room?
00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:27.360
Okay.
00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:32.400
I'm on the hall for maybe 10 minutes, and then they invite me back in.
00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:37.759
And in that very German way, they're all rapping on the table, which is applauding me.
00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:46.879
And they said, Herr Evans, we have decided you will be our total quality management consultant.
00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:49.199
I just started laughing.
00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:53.039
I said, Okay, I need to ask you a question.
00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:57.759
Why would a great German airline want to pick an American?
00:03:57.919 --> 00:03:59.360
You know, I'm an American, right?
00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:03.919
Why would you pick an American to be your quality consultant?
00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:08.879
And they said, Well, to be honest, we would rather have picked a German.
00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:15.039
But of all the ones we interviewed, you were the only one who had any fun.
00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:20.079
And like I had no idea, I had no idea that was a criteria.
00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:22.160
And apparently they didn't either.
00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:31.279
But there was something about the light-heartedness of it that allowed them to overcome some of their own bickering.
00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:33.600
German companies love to bicker.
00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:39.839
They had their own internal debate about what are we going to do, what should we do, boom, boom, boom.
00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:44.959
So there was something about the humor that helped them come to an agreement.
00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:48.399
And weirdly, an agreement about me.
00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:49.519
And so we did.
00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:51.199
And I worked all throughout the company.
00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:55.199
We had a great project, uh, great results.
00:04:55.759 --> 00:05:00.079
And that put the company on the map in Europe.
00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:04.240
And from that, we were able to build out a great company.
00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:19.519
So I don't know that it was strictly unprofessional, but the the light-heartedness is certainly not what you would expect from a professional interview with engineers, with German engineers.
00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:22.399
And I would be What have I got to lose?
00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:23.680
What have I got to lose?
00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:27.439
Yeah, I would be curious to to learn more about that.
00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:33.519
Um, how conscious you were of the did you take a conscious risk?
00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:36.079
Were you aware of the lightheartedness?
00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:36.879
Oh, yeah.
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:40.000
Uh, that's it's hard for me not to be lighthearted.
00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:44.079
So that is the risk you get when you invite me in there.
00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:45.680
So is it risky?
00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:48.079
Uh yeah.
00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:50.720
I mean, human humor doesn't always work.
00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:56.720
And cross-cultural humor has more of a chance of failing than otherwise.
00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:00.000
What makes it less of a risk for me?
00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:01.680
So maybe it's not a risk.
00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:03.680
Maybe we need to find something scarier.
00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:10.800
But what makes it less of a risk for me is uh uh warmth and heart.
00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:14.160
Now that alone is unprofessional.
00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:21.360
Um, to come now exactly as in the as the uh English saying goes, with your heart on your sleeve.
00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:31.519
But to be willing to be warmly humorous rather than caustically or sarcastically uh humorous, I think is more of a risk.
00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:33.920
Sarcasm is safe.
00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:35.040
Yeah.
00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:36.959
Let's make fun of that guy over there.
00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:37.839
Oh, okay.
00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:40.959
But then when is it my turn for you to make fun of me when I'm over there?
00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:43.600
That's the downside to it.
00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:46.480
And and warm humor is just warm humor.
00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:48.879
You know, like our conversation.
00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:52.079
Do they know we have conversations before this starts?
00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:55.120
Which probably I'm gonna like you can let them know.
00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:58.319
I'm gonna br I'm gonna break the third wall here and let them know.
00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:00.639
We had a conversation before we start.
00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:09.920
And uh the idea of warmth and heart, I really think is is the essence of the human.
00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:19.439
So if if if unprofessional is roughly defined at being more human than otherwise in a professional setting, I just made that up.
00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:22.399
But that sounds like it's what you're talking about.
00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:24.879
Are there risks in that?
00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:25.600
Totally.
00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:26.560
Absolutely.
00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:32.720
I mean, because then if it doesn't work or you're rejected, it can land a little harder.
00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:38.240
A little, a bunch of stuff can bounce off the armor unless you take the armor off.
00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:40.639
And it bounces off you.
00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:42.639
And that's just a different deal.
00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:48.160
So the light-heartedness showing a part of yourself that is truly you.
00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:48.560
Yeah.
00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:54.560
And then the rejection is the rejection of you and not the rejection of a professional version of yourself.
00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:56.959
It's but it's not the little the hand in the puppet.
00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:02.560
It's not the little puppet version that I that I uh would otherwise uh, you know.
00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:02.879
Yeah.
00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:03.920
Here, hello.
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:05.759
I'm here to talk about total quality.
00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:18.879
Um the combination of humor and uh being willing to follow my own curiosity seems somehow unprofessional in as it's mostly defined.
00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:20.480
What makes you say that?
00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:23.439
Professionals have mastered, well, I don't know.
00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:25.839
Let's let's let's talk about it.
00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:37.919
Professionals think they're on the scene because they've mastered some craft or body of knowledge or a technical skill, and they're getting paid for that.
00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:40.480
So, what do you mean you don't know what to do?
00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:47.039
I'm paying you to know what to do, uh, is the dilemma many consultants find themselves in.
00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:57.600
And the dilemma consulting finds itself in, and why I love what I do as opposed to that, is it's based on curiosity and discovery.
00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:06.960
What I do is based on curiosity and discovery, which can be very unnerving for a client when I'm so confident we'll find an answer and I don't know what it is.
00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:12.559
I don't know what it is, but I know together we're gonna find that answer.
00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:17.279
One, because we have to, and two, because we brought the right people together.
00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:23.679
Would you say that to a client that you don't know the answer yet, but you're sure that you'll find it?
00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:24.639
Totally.
00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:25.840
Oh, absolutely.
00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:27.440
I'd say, look, I don't know the answer.
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:31.519
We got to put together a room of people out of which the answer will emerge.
00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:39.360
I know how to get us there, and I know how to hold the room together when people want to bail because they don't have an answer yet.
00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:41.200
I can do that.
00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:44.240
And we'll hold it together long enough to get the answer.
00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:46.080
How do clients react to that?
00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:47.360
That's a great question.
00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:48.960
You should probably ask them.
00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:53.279
They usually still hire me, which is probably a good thing.
00:09:53.519 --> 00:10:02.639
They know that I've gotten a lot of people into the promised land through this process, into a promised land better than the one they came there to get.
00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:09.840
And I can put my clients to be in touch with clients who will vouch for that.
00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:18.720
Along the way, I think when client said to me, Rob, your confidence is excruciating.
00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:30.960
And uh, I think by that they meant they were semi-panicked because I I lead large group workshops, you know, and your uh your listeners.
00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:43.840
There's 50, 70, 100 people in the room, all on the basis of some individual or group that said, come together to do this seemingly impossible thing.
00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:52.000
And as one of the top guys at Ford once said to me, and forgive the language, he said, Rob, I'm bringing 90 people together for four days.
00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:53.759
This is a top four guy.
00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:56.720
He got a multi-billion dollar budget.
00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:00.320
I'm bringing 90 people together for four days.
00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:04.000
If this doesn't work, I'm gonna look like a shithead.
00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:06.080
And I I just started the lab.
00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:15.039
I said, Carlos, given who you are, if you end up looking like a shithead, you're going to kill me.
00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:16.639
So we're here together.
00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.559
All right, we're in this together, and we're gonna get through this together.
00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:26.320
And though there's at least one or two times where I'm just gonna say, you gotta trust me on this.
00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:28.639
And you can trust me or not.
00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:30.240
It's easier if you do.
00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:31.919
It's easier if you do.
00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:34.159
And he became a fast friend afterwards.
00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:37.279
We know we would call each other up just to see how things are going.
00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:45.759
But it's that that element of risk uh that feels unprofessional to managers who are facing that risk.
00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:47.279
They would like to manage risk.
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:50.399
I feel that's part of their job, is managing risks for the company.
00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:52.399
And they're right, they're right, of course.
00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:56.399
But sometimes it's risky to manage risk, really manage risk.
00:11:57.039 --> 00:12:01.840
Playing it safe is not a good way to manage risk in every case.
00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:07.200
Doing what we've done, where do you think those risks came from?
00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:11.519
They came from the fact that we've done it that way forever.
00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:12.159
Okay.
00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:16.399
So to change that, ah boy, that's a different deal.
00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:18.399
Because otherwise, it's funny.
00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:21.440
If we play it safe, we always have the excuse.
00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.399
I couldn't have known it better because in the past it has worked.
00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:25.279
Exactly.
00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:25.440
Right.
00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:26.159
Exactly right.
00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:29.120
Then we're back at the image of the armor.
00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:33.679
Then if it if it lands, it lands on the armor.
00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:39.120
If I try something that hasn't been tried before, yes, it lands without the armor.
00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:46.240
And uh 30, 40 years ago, there was a saying in management that IBM sales consultants would use.
00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:51.279
They would say, Ah, my friend, no one ever got fired for buying IBM.
00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:56.720
Well, it turned out not to be true after a while, but it was a great line at that time.
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:06.799
Just go with me, and that manages your professional risk in selling this internally to your organization, yeah, which is always a big deal.
00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:08.240
Yeah.
00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:20.159
And what I hear in the in the story was taking the risk and taking the your client by the hand, say, okay, we both don't know how to do that, and we'll do it anyway.
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:21.840
Something like that, right?
00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.080
I can still hear this lightheartedness in that.
00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:31.440
And I would love to understand what you mean by that.
00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:39.360
It seems like your superpower, where you walk into a high-risk situation with a light heart.
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:46.960
What do we see or hear Rob do or say when he is performing with a light heart?
00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:48.879
Or being with a light heart.
00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:52.080
Probably that's a great that's a thank you for that.
00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:53.600
I think that's exactly right.
00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.440
I don't think you can you can do lightheart.
00:13:58.399 --> 00:13:59.519
Then you're performing.
00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:00.879
Right?
00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:05.120
And you've got a pretty good nose for when somebody's performing.
00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:08.080
You know, it just people are performing all the time.
00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:11.679
We know when we don't believe it completely, right?
00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:14.320
If it's if it's performative.
00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:16.480
In fact, that's a pejorative now.
00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.159
Uh it's performative.
00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.159
You're just going through the motions.
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:29.759
The the posts people put online are so painfully perform that it almost is worth reading anymore.
00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:41.440
Because it's I'm showing you a version of my life and my work, and man, and everything's always great, which is why your podcast is so brilliant and why people tune in.
00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:46.000
Because they know they know it's not like that on all the time.
00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:50.320
They know it's not like the last guy's last LinkedIn post.
00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:53.519
Hopefully, they they just know it.
00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:57.039
Yeah, but how do you be what you know?
00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:00.240
That's that's the that's the question you're asking.
00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:03.519
How do I be when I know?
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:07.279
I I actually don't know, but I know how to know.
00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:14.080
I know how to learn, and I know how to hold a group together while we learn together.
00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:22.799
What is uh in my wife's wonderful phrase, what is longing to happen in this situation.
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:29.919
So it's we we're kidding each other about always going kind of lofty and woo-woo.
00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:34.399
Uh before see, this is what we talk about before we get online with, well, you know, we always go up.
00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:43.679
So this is a little like that, because what's longing to happen is tapping into what's really real in a group and in yourself.
00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:48.080
And what's longing to happen for me is not to be fake.
00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:56.799
And to when I then hear myself being fake anyway, going, hmm, hmm, wow, I wonder what that was about.
00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:00.000
And uh what's what's realer?
00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:01.519
What's more real than that?
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:06.080
No, it's not like there's any there's only one of us, there's only one person.
00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:14.559
Each of us is like a like a gem with many different facets, and many different Robs, many different Miriams.
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:23.200
And some are more I was almost said acceptable, expectable in a in a professional situation.
00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:24.960
But the others are there.
00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:30.559
We all know the other the the the the the other facets of the person are there.
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:37.840
So let's just turn that around, see what what what kind of light comes through that facet into this situation.
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:38.960
Yeah.
00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:49.279
And then and still you used the word fake, so there is a distinction between the different facets of us that are all true.
00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:50.080
Yeah.
00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:57.759
And I think of course we are adjusting our language, our being to the context.
00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:02.480
I think that's part of emotional intelligence or social intelligence.
00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:11.759
And then there is the code switching in the maybe almost dangerous sense where it becomes fake.
00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:13.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:26.720
When you're when you're obviously code switching and adopting language and adopting a stance and a persona and all of that, it it becomes we we call it code switching because we can see when people do it.
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.880
Uh and we and we get the inauthenticity of it.
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:31.680
Yeah.
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:36.240
And I love that you mentioned that you catch yourself.
00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:37.920
Maybe this was in the past.
00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:39.759
I do catch myself.
00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:44.799
Um usually out of an insecurity.
00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:54.160
I there are some podcast episodes that I listen back to, and I'm sitting there with excruciating shame.
00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:59.200
Ah, no, no, I did that on oh, and it's oh, it's out there.
00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:04.880
Because I can hear how I am just performing the smart ass.
00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:11.359
Although, of course, I have no idea what I talk about compared to the person I'm interviewing.
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:15.599
And then the question is, is that a part of me or is that fake?
00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:17.359
Well, that's a great question.
00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:22.000
And if it is a part of you, uh is that okay?
00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:25.200
Are there are there any facets that's just not okay?
00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.240
There's some that I'm ashamed of for sure.
00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:28.880
Okay.
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:30.240
What does okay mean?
00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:31.200
Okay to who?
00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:32.000
Who?
00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:33.039
Right?
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:33.440
Yeah.
00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:35.279
Okay in this situation?
00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:35.920
Yeah.
00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:39.920
There's some things I do that are are not uh helpful.
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:41.119
St.
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:54.240
Paul in one of the letters to one of the churches said something like he said in Aramaic, so I don't know what he said, uh, or Greek, but he said something like, uh, all things are permissible, but not all things are helpful.
00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:02.799
And a version of that that I like modern days is Suzuki Roshi's, you're perfect just the way you are.
00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:04.799
And you could use a little work.
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:12.720
So that paradox of uh that's the paradox of of authenticity, I think.
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:14.319
Yes.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:22.079
And why you were speaking, would no, let me first ask you, what do you mean by the paradox of authenticity?
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:24.640
Well, who's the one that's being authentic?
00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:27.200
Who's being authentic?
00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:32.000
Honestly, Miriam, we it when we were talking about facilitation and another thing.
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:42.799
Um, the most powerful lesson I ever got in facilitation was working in a jail, doing a performance in a jail with my teacher, brother blue.
00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:44.640
Now, let me show you, brother Blue.
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.799
Brother Blue is an African-American man, was an African-American man.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:56.400
Brother Blue, you're showing a picture of an African-American man with a butterfly on his palm.
00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:02.079
With a butterfly, very colorful, uniform barefoot.
00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:02.960
Barefoot.
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:07.039
We were doing uh a performance in a prison, and I would drum for him.
00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:13.839
I heard the the rhythm in his stories, and I was so taken with this guy.
00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:24.559
I went out and bought a drum, big old plumba drum, and just showed up one day on the streets of Cambridge, Massachusetts, where he would tell stories and just started drumming with him.
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:27.759
And we became good friends.
00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:30.720
He was actually my spiritual godfather in so many ways.
00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.680
He's the he uh the actual godparent to my children.
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:47.759
He's passed now, he's gone on to uh some more blessed realm, or he came back to be brother blue again, some other place, because what he was here for was help people find their own story.
00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:56.160
So we're we're on stage in a prison, and it's like all hell is breaking loose because who the hell is this guy?
00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:05.440
The the the uh African Americans are going, they were a little embarrassed by this guy dancing around looking like that, telling stories, and they're trying to be so tough.
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:10.160
And the white guys are going, what is that white guy doing on stage with him?
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:16.000
And the African American guys, all the Hispanic guys are going, when they kill the white guy, can we have his drum?
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:22.640
It's like and I'm I'm uh just going, What are you doing here, Rob?
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.799
Did you why did what are you what were you thinking?
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:28.799
Did you come to save these people?
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:30.240
Well, forget about that.
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:36.880
If you're here in some kind of uh liberal guilty thing, you're you're gonna get killed.
00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:43.359
I mean, you're it not physically killed, maybe, but psychologically they're gonna rip you apart.
00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:46.240
I've worked enough in jails to know that's what happens.
00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:52.960
It's ripping people down if you can, because it's better than being ripped down yourself and you know, ripped or rip E.
00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:56.000
You ripper or rip E, you pick.
00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:57.599
Well, that's the only choice.
00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:58.480
Yeah.
00:21:58.960 --> 00:21:59.359
Ripper.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.720
Um so that's the choice people make.
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:15.440
What happened to me on stage, Miriam, is I felt like uh the the thought came to me, if you're here for you, you don't have a right to be here, and they have a right to do whatever they want to you.
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:23.599
If you're here for some higher purpose, which Brother Blue was, then get out of your own way and just be here.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:34.400
And I felt like uh I'd lived in England and I'd seen old cowhorn lanterns.
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:40.400
So cheaper than glass, so you would make lanterns out of animal horns.
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:52.559
So that it's they're translucent, but to really let light out, you one of the doors would swing open so you could shine the direct light on whatever it is you want to illuminate.
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.119
Well, that's what I felt happen in me.
00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:04.799
I felt something happened in my heart that swung open a door, and I felt like there was a light coming through me that wasn't me.
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:07.200
And that's okay.
00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:08.880
And that was a good thing.
00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:13.680
All I had to do was get out of the way, get Rob out of the way.
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.240
And so what is really authentic?
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:29.599
I think what is really authentic about all of us is that inner light that is not ours, and it is ours.
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.839
It's in us, but also through us.
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:41.680
That's what's really authentic, and anything else is just one of the sides of the lantern, to use another kind of facet metaphor.
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:42.240
Yeah.
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:57.599
But we do have the capacity of getting out of the way and and letting light come through us that really warms and illuminates it's not us, it warms and illuminates those who are around us.
00:23:58.079 --> 00:23:59.599
Well, no, that's worth doing.
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:03.440
So that's all by way of what's authentic.
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:06.400
The light is authentic.
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:11.440
And anything else we just need to recognize is a form.
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:16.960
Uh a lot of spiritual traditions would say an illusion, a dream.
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:25.680
Okay, it can be a good dream, can be a bad dream, but what's really real is the divinity of all of us.
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:41.119
My my my uh wife's late husband, I went to divinity school with, curiously enough, that's another story, would say God is that which is greater than all and present in each.
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:43.359
So God language kind of puts people off.
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:52.160
So the divine, the sacred, the the really real is greater than all but present in each.
00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:53.759
And that's authentic.
00:24:54.079 --> 00:25:05.039
So when you pull all the all the shields, all the protections, all the wounds, all the ego, pull all that back.
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:08.079
Yeah, well, which is really hard to do.
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:09.039
That's a lifetime.
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:18.880
And then it sounds, and I think that's um something that I have come to the conclusion too that being authentic is the most difficult thing ever.
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:20.720
Oh, I know.
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:22.559
Being truly us.
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:27.119
Um because it's then we're back to the beginning of your story.
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:34.079
That's where you're so vulnerable because every every criticism is on us.
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:35.200
Right.
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:41.599
And how can I mean can you be authentic without feeling you need to be loyal to who you were a second ago?
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:43.359
Ooh.
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.559
Do I have to defend who I was at yesterday?
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:51.440
I'm not even that guy anymore.
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:52.400
But we do.
00:25:52.559 --> 00:26:03.599
I mean, we feel obliged to to we we feel we need the continuity of a person, a professional persona, for example.
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:12.720
You know, I can I can be Rob the Consultant, I could put that on, I can give you chapter and births, I got a CV up on the web, I got blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:16.400
I got a LinkedIn profile, I got all that good stuff.
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:20.880
But do I have to be that when I show up?
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:26.240
People want to check that out to see if I've shown up anyplace else and they didn't kick me out.
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:29.039
Yeah, once or twice, they didn't kick me out.
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:30.319
Uh, okay.
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:34.079
But then I then do I have to show up like that every time?
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:36.160
I hope not.
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:42.079
I think I now can put my finger on the light-heartedness.
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:50.240
And if I read it correctly, then it comes from this radical self-acceptance.
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:52.400
Of a higher self.
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:53.359
Right.
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:58.640
And and the the one that was here doing the best he can.
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:16.559
Because I think only when you totally self-accept yourself, and that's what I hear in what you describe is hey, I might maybe who I was a minute ago is not the same person I am today, and trusting the inner light, trusting your intuition.
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:20.960
And then you don't have to take yourself so seriously.
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:24.720
I wish I remembered that more.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:27.279
Send me a copy of this.
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:32.319
I may need to watch this sometimes because you know I'll wake up and and I'll be an absolute worm.
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.160
I'm like, oh my god, I can't do anything.
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:35.599
Right, I'm on and on and on.
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:39.759
Everybody goes through that cycle of up and down and up and down and up and down.
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:44.559
And and when I say lighthearted, I mean actual light.
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:47.279
Ah, you mean the light as you describe it.
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:49.920
Not just my heart, isn't all heavy and weighed.
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:56.480
No, it's light-hearted, which is not something I've ever put together before.
00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:58.240
So thank you very much for that.
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:05.440
So, as I understand, this light-heartedness still shows up in all the work you do.
00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:07.920
And that's in my best work.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:09.440
Yeah, in my best work.
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:16.000
What are the factors that might turn that lead to you turning off the light?
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:16.640
Great.
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:18.319
That's a great question.
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:20.400
Or closing the door.
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:21.599
Yeah.
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:38.160
For me, often in my work, it's a f it's just a sense of professional responsibility when I feel I'm required to be responsible for something, and I don't do it as consciously as I would like.
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:40.079
I get cranky.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:50.400
Or I'm I'm uh critical of the work of people around me in ways that don't recognize they're probably doing the best they can that day, too.
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:56.160
You know, it I'm sitting here at my desk, it's early in the morning, I'm still being caffeinated.
00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:57.200
You know, it's good.
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:02.000
I just had a hot tub, I had a swim, and then I rushed in to get ready to come here.
00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:06.960
It's been a good morning, and I'm not tired.
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:20.400
So here I'm 74 years old, and what I discover is working uh 16-hour days takes a different toll than it did, and it actually took a toll when I started doing it when I was 45.
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:22.880
I just could ignore it.
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:29.440
The jet lag gets me harder and longer than it used to.
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:47.200
So fatigue is a is a thing, managing the physical body uh staying in shape, uh, dealing with the natural inevitable degradation of the body that happens over time, no matter what you do.
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:59.839
Uh just accepting that and and um for me, Miriam, factoring that in so that I'm not you you've heard of Hangri, where you're angry because you're hungry.
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:00.480
Yeah.
00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:03.119
There's probably a tangry version of that.
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:04.960
You're angry because you're tired.
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:08.400
I think new parents can write books about that, right?
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:09.200
Good point.
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:14.160
I mean, you have people who have little watching this who have infants at home.
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:15.680
God bless you.
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:17.200
I remember that.
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:21.039
I have kids with grandkids, I remember it.
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:23.759
And boy, am I glad to turn the grandkids?
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:29.279
I love my grandchildren, and I'm not sorry when they go back to their parents because I need a nap.
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:30.319
Yeah.
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:41.440
And you chose the word endured, and enduring endurance is something that is such high, highly regarded.
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:42.880
Oh, that's professionals.
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:44.000
We can endure.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:49.200
Uh takes a the old time excumeral takes a licking and keeps on ticking, you know.
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:49.839
Yeah.
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:53.839
What price did you pay for the 16-hour stays?
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:55.279
Great question.
00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:58.880
So probably learning what price I paid.
00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:19.359
Uh it it brought me a so being able to be physically uh, I could take a lot of damage physically and still in the moment let the light come through and be energized by the group and energized by the situation.
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:30.079
So extroverts, as an extrovert, maybe that's an extrovert strategy that uh allows me to now.
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.119
When I say be on, it sounds kind of performative, doesn't it?
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:45.039
But on in the sense of turned on and still the light coming through when it's required, and then when we're done, base plant.
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:55.200
You know, it's like oh, exhausted, or even knowing that I need to, and I've been doing this forever, don't tell my clients all the time, but I would set up venues.
00:31:55.279 --> 00:32:06.319
And when I led the accelerated solutions environments for Cap Gemini and uh Ernston Young before that, we would always have a secret room in the venues that we built and created.
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:23.200
And we when we could, that would be the nap room where the crews who started at 6:30 in the morning and might go until 11 o'clock at night and then come back in to start at 6:30, could disappear and take a nap during the day.
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:25.440
Why did it have to be secret?
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:31.200
Why indeed, because we were also pushing our clients, we should have given nap rooms to them too.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:33.039
How unprofessional.
00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:41.440
How unprofessional, how thoughtless of us to make give ourselves accordances that we didn't, affordances that we didn't give them.
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:44.000
That's I I thought the other way around.
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:48.319
How unprofessional to even think of a nap room that people might need the nap.
00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:50.160
Well, good point.
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:51.920
Maybe that's why it was secret.
00:32:52.079 --> 00:33:00.319
We'd often have big stuffed animals around our centers for various reasons, one of which is they made good pillows when you took them into the nap room.
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.839
And having a pillow kind of gave it away, you know, it was that good.
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:07.920
So, but you could take a stuffed animal and for a while.
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:12.079
So your question was what did the endurance uh cost me?
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:21.599
I think part of what it cost was the fiction that my body didn't have its own requirements that I might have listened to a little more carefully.
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:30.480
And that when one is just gritting through it and enduring it, you kind of turn off the messages from your body, don't you?
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:35.119
You just go, I'm I'm sorry, I don't have time for that right now.
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:40.319
We got to design this new module on the fly because the last one was didn't get the results we wanted.
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:42.079
So we got to do something different than we thought.
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:43.279
Oh that.
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:50.079
So it's um endurance is an override of the body, of messages from the body.
00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:54.640
Slow down, take a break, sit down.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:56.880
Will you just sit down for a minute?
00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:59.440
Meditate for 10 minutes, see what happens.
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:02.319
Can't gotta go, gotta keep at it.
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:06.640
And so the the distance from the the reaction, what's authentic?
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:12.639
I mean, what's most most authentic is not I think, therefore I am, it's I've got a body, therefore I am.
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:21.840
And curiously, most of our brain is designed to run our body, according to Michael Pollan and his new book on consciousness.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:26.239
It reminds us that most of the brain, it's all about getting keeping the body going.
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:28.400
Or does the thinking happen?
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:30.079
Good question.
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:31.920
Interesting question.
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:34.639
Not clear yet.
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:36.559
Not clear yet.
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.840
Do we think it all happens inside the skull?
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:42.400
Not really, not anymore.
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:43.920
Body knows it all.
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:45.519
The body knows the score.
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:46.000
That's right.
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:47.280
The body keeps the score.
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:53.360
Yeah, the body knows, then the emotions perceive, and finally the brain comes along and makes sense out of it.
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:55.360
The brain is always the last to know.
00:34:55.679 --> 00:35:01.920
How present are emotions in your work and the work that you do?
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:02.639
Yeah.
00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:07.760
They're very present, and I I would put it, I would frame it a little differently.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.639
And not just emotions, but energy.
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:21.119
The energy of the room is the emotions of the room, the the the aggregate average emotions of the room, but managing the emotions of the room is a big deal.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:23.679
Because that's how come that's how people change.
00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:26.000
People change because you tuck them into it.
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:27.679
No, they don't.
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:32.079
People change because they have an experience, an emotional experience.
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:34.880
The change is necessary and possible.
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:43.440
And why is it that it's easier to communicate about energy than about the accumulated emotions in the room?
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:46.159
Because it's so unprofessional.
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:47.519
Are you kidding?
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:50.559
To talk about the emotions of a company?
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:54.559
Well, you can talk about the energy, and it sounds vaguely scientific.
00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:56.079
Unless you're from California.
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:58.719
And then it sounds, well, that's pretty woo-woo, Rob.
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:00.400
You're from Moran County, aren't you?
00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:03.280
Oh, of course he's talking about energy.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:08.079
It's it's a cloak in a way, but it's also more than just the emotions.
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.760
If emotions are I'm feeling good, I'm feeling bad, or I'm angry, I'm happy.
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:12.880
Those are emotions.
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:21.199
But there's something at a more fundamental level than the emotional flip show.
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.360
Emotions are are constant, they're fleeting in a way.
00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:36.239
And there's something more substantial about energy that are maybe the source of all emotions reflect the body's energy of one kind or another.
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:39.519
Emotion being energy in motion.
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:41.760
Energy in motion.
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:42.880
That's very good.
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:44.480
I like that.
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:45.599
I might use that.
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:46.719
May I use that?
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:48.159
I'll give you full credit.
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:49.039
I didn't invent it.
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:52.159
Well, yeah, I know, but I didn't hear it from whoever did.
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:52.960
I heard it from you.
00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:54.880
So I'm giving you credit.
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:58.800
You're gonna go in my book of black quotes.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:00.880
My black book of quotes.
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:03.519
Um, you want to know what you're coming after?
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:04.159
Yes, please.
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:13.840
Says the success of an intervention depends on the inner state of the intervener.
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:15.760
That's good.
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:17.199
Somehow related.
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:18.079
I know.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:21.519
So this is this is this you came right at the right time.
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:28.159
Wiza uh Hester said, if I'm not in on the takeoff, don't expect me on the landing.
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:30.960
Oh, that's good, right?
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:32.320
Yeah, beautiful.
00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:38.159
And then my friend William Muri said, if it's predictable, it's preventable.
00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:42.960
He's talking about international conflict, but it works all sorts of places.
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:45.360
If it's predictable, it's preventable.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:47.119
Yes, yes.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.000
And you get and next comes Miriam.
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:53.280
Emotion is energy in motion.
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:55.840
I could go on and on there.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:38:02.239
I still have a very long list of topics that we haven't even touched upon, but I would be very curious.
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:03.280
I hope that you'll be back.
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:06.400
I go off on something.
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:07.679
But it's beautiful.
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:16.159
And I would like to close with a question: what is an unprofessional advice that you would give to the listeners?
00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:18.639
Well, it has something to do with fun.
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:22.800
I would put advice about fun in a bunch of different ways.
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:32.800
One of our axioms in the design shop world that Matt and Gail Taylor came up with is if you can't have fun with the problem, you'll never solve it.
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:40.800
And I would use that, I would put that axiom out there and say, look, we're not here to have fun, but are you willing to have some fun?
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:46.639
And I'll do it in a kind of a teasing way and invite them to think about that.
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:50.559
So if you can't have fun with the problem, you'll never solve it.
00:38:51.360 --> 00:39:04.000
Um and uh my wife, Carolyn Buckloose, who invented something called the decade game, as one of her axioms is if you're not having fun, it's because you're playing somebody else's game.
00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:06.000
That's good too, huh?
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:08.800
So have fun.
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:10.639
Try having fun.
00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:13.599
Try having a little more fun on a scale of one to ten.
00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:16.000
How much fun did you have yesterday?
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:21.440
Okay, what would it take to increase by one point today?
00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:25.599
How could you have just a little more fun today?
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:30.079
You don't want to push it, you know, you don't want to burn out the system having too much fun.
00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:31.519
But how could you increase?
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:35.599
How could you increase your level of fun just a little bit today?
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:36.559
Yeah.
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:41.920
And by adding, by making it a little bit of our own game.
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:47.599
By asking, whose game am I playing here?
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:48.079
Yeah.
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:50.159
See, that's what I love about you.
00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:52.079
That's why you're doing this.
00:39:52.159 --> 00:40:08.400
I mean, you're doing this podcast for all kinds of reasons, but one of the things I take as a good reason to do this podcast is you invite us to remember that whatever we think professional means, it's probably somebody else's game.
00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:10.239
Yes.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:12.719
Probably somebody else's game.
00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:15.119
What if it were your game?
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:16.960
What would that be like?
00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:18.239
Wouldn't that be cool?
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:22.800
It beautifully connects back to the story with which you started.
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:26.000
How do you see that connection?
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:30.800
That you walked into the womb, you didn't expect to get the job.
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:35.840
You were lighthearted, with an open heart, but also with the fun.
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:38.239
Having fun with it, joy with it.
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:43.519
Um, since you didn't expect anything from them, you were playing your own game.
00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:44.639
Good point.
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:51.840
And this left such an impression that they chose you over everyone else, over the German engineers.
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:53.760
Who knew?
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:54.559
As they say.
00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:55.440
Who knew?
00:40:55.760 --> 00:41:00.400
And what I find the most remarkable in that is that they even admitted it.
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:01.440
They did.
00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:05.920
They didn't find all the reasons why you would outperform the others.
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:07.280
No, you.
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:08.639
You bring fun.
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:09.280
Yeah.
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:11.599
Turns out they were fun too.
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:15.679
They might not have admitted that either at the time.
00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:22.079
You were it's always it's always a blessing to be in conversation with you.
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:38.320
Well, I feel the same way, Miriam, and I know that your your viewers feel the same way about you and your uh persistence, your insistence on moving to conversations that matter.
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:42.639
And that's why I love uh talking with you.
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:47.039
Because I feel like we don't it sounds like we don't have fun.
00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:48.400
We don't mess around, Miriam.
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:52.480
We get right to the the the funnest stuff.
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:57.519
And what but and this by that I mean uh the most true stuff.
00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:12.320
There's a you have a quality and you bring a quality to your conversations that invites the people you're talking with to really step up to what's true for them and cut the BS.
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:14.079
I really appreciate that about you.
00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:15.119
Means a lot.
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:16.559
Until next time.
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:17.519
Yes.
00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:22.639
Thank you for staying tuned and for listening until the very end.
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:27.599
I hope that you found the inspiration and the wisdom that you are looking for.
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:38.559
And I hope that you will subscribe to the show so that you never miss any of the interviews with another inspiring facilitator from across the world.
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:48.960
I'm devoted to continue this podcast and to deliver weekly an episode that maintains the quality that you expect and you deserve.
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:58.800
And if you would like to help me to maintain this quality and to keep the podcast free, please help us visit workstop.org.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:06.400
Thank you so much.
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:09.760
I hope to be in your ES next week.
