315 - Beyond the Quick Fix: Holding Space for What Wants to Emerge with Quanita Roberson

WEBVTT
00:00:02.560 --> 00:00:04.400
What does it take to make workshops work?
00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:08.800
And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results?
00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:16.239
My name is Miriam Hatness, and with the Workshops Work Podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work.
00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:20.399
Today with me on the show is a returning guest, Cornita Wapperson.
00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:25.839
And we speak about the inner work in the broadest sense.
00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:30.160
We speak about spirituality and we do speak about DI.
00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:37.280
We speak about grief and anger and the hard things and the ponderings.
00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:44.000
So get ready for a beautiful journey that also has to do with facilitation.
00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:50.079
And if you're looking for more information, scroll down into the show notes to find all the links.
00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:53.679
And if you enjoyed the show, please hit the subscribe button.
00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:54.960
I would appreciate it.
00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:56.479
Thank you for listening.
00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:02.159
Always a joy and privilege to have you back on the show.
00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:07.439
I think you're one of the persons I've most cited in all the episodes.
00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:09.519
Oh, thank you.
00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:10.719
I'm so glad to be here.
00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:19.599
What I've experienced with you is you're always so thoughtful and curious, and I just think we need more of that in the world.
00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:22.000
Thank you for the work you're doing.
00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:23.920
Take this as a compliment.
00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:24.959
Thank you.
00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:45.840
And I always perceive the conversations with you as deeply nurturing and helping me to ground into what's actually relevant beyond all the buzz to come back to self and to purpose and meaning and spirituality.
00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:49.200
And uh yeah.
00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:58.560
So being here right now, what's alive for you as a facilitator, as a wisdom keeper?
00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:14.479
I think one of the things that's alive for me, if I take those in order as a facilitator, is that we have become such a culture of imitation instead of integration of the work.
00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:24.400
You know, we know all the right words to say, we know all the ways to move, but it's like we don't embody it.
00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:41.680
You know, maybe that's the absence of the balance of the masculine and the feminine, the masculine that holds the container, and the feminine that goes in and embodies and like and helps to deepen it into, you know, so it becomes a part of you.
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.159
And is this because we are rushing too much?
00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:53.120
And because I wonder whether it's because it's too easy, it became too easy to actually absorb all the language and to imitate.
00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:53.599
Yeah.
00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:58.800
And we're too busy to actually sit with it so that we can eventually embody.
00:02:59.280 --> 00:02:59.599
Yeah.
00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:00.080
Yeah.
00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:03.120
I think it's because we live in such a microwave culture.
00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.879
And so, you know, we want to microwave our healing too.
00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:20.719
And so we're also attracted to the flashy because, you know, we want to be with people who will let us do that and who won't stop and say, oh no, no, you need to sit here a little bit longer.
00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:28.240
You know, I do a I host and facilitate a 16-month leadership rites of passage cohort for adults.
00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.759
And, you know, it's an initiatory journey.
00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:44.800
And I think about people who are hosting similar things for three months, you know, like we can be initiated, and not that, and even after the 16 months, I tell the people in Fire and Water, this is just the beginning.
00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:50.240
Because it's a a crumbling that happens in your system.
00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:54.319
And you need to be held in that in a in a kind way.
00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:59.280
And if you're really doing that deep dive, three months ain't gonna do it.
00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:04.879
But we like that somebody can tell us that we can, and then we can feel like then we got it, you know?
00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:17.279
Feels like needing the stamp, the permission, the label instead of the achievement or the certificate.
00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:19.360
You know.
00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:26.639
I I recently heard that phrase and I found it, I read it in a book and I found it hilarious.
00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:30.879
Is nobody ever told us that we don't stop growing up.
00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:34.240
We somehow all believe that when we're 18, oh now we're adults.
00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:34.560
Yes.
00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:35.120
Yes.
00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:36.560
We never stop growing up.
00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:45.600
No, we just have a bunch of adolescent adults, you know, because just because you're in big people's body doesn't mean you're a grown-up.
00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:46.480
Yeah.
00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:50.319
So what is it that takes so long?
00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:59.600
Because if it didn't, oh my goodness, it would be quite a trauma on the it's already traumatic, I think, the initiation process.
00:04:59.839 --> 00:05:04.959
But I think it's because what you're doing is letting go of old beliefs.
00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:07.920
And there's usually a space in between.
00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:14.319
We have three retreats in the 16 months, and the middle retreat I call the medicine retreat.
00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:17.759
And it's really where the crumble, it's like you're in the middle of the crumble.
00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:24.240
These things that you've held on to as being right, real, and true are starting to fall apart.
00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:28.720
And there's deep grief and sadness in that to be held in.
00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:38.399
And then what happens is at the same time, or usually there's a little bit of a space, but at the same time, there's a birthing of something.
00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:43.759
There's the hospicing out the old and the birthing, midwifing the new.
00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:45.839
Because there's suddenly space.
00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:47.120
Yes.
00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:49.120
There's space for it to come in.
00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:49.519
Yeah.
00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:55.680
You know, we say oftentimes there's lots of things that we want, but we're too fooled to have it.
00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:01.360
You have to empty out the stuff you don't want so that there's room for the new stuff to come in.
00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:08.480
Why is it so scary to to let go of the old stuff, to the old beliefs that no longer serve us?
00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:09.360
Yeah.
00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:16.079
I think part of it is because we've lost the understanding and the importance of elders.
00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:19.920
You know, we can't take ourselves someplace we haven't been.
00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:27.040
And the gift of elders is that they can see themselves, so of course they can see you and hold space for you and put you first.
00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:29.040
They're not just old people.
00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:45.519
And in that process, if you don't trust people to be able to do that, if you don't trust that somebody else can put you first and hold space for you, you'll never go to the bottom of your grief and your depth, empty out to get access to the gifts of the wound.
00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:48.079
It actually makes me sad to hear that.
00:06:48.639 --> 00:07:02.240
Because I think it's something that we would hope that every person, every adult has experienced to be seen and helped by someone so that we can fully be ourselves.
00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:12.079
And by own experience, I know that it's not quite so many tears on the grief of not having the past that I would like to have.
00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:13.120
Yes.
00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:21.759
There's a woman, her name is Rita Fiero, and she wrote a book, I believe it's titled Digging Up the Seeds of White Supremacy.
00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:30.079
And one of the things she talks about as a white woman, she says, We have been born birthed into being tools of the patriarchy.
00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:36.399
And so the threat in the family is always, if you don't stay in line, you'll be disinherited, you'll be kicked out.
00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:39.839
And she's like, So we don't always trust that our parents love us.
00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:45.759
And she says, People of color often, no matter how messy their families are, they usually trust that their parents love them.
00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:52.639
And so there's this piece that if you don't have that and didn't trust that with your parents, how can you surrender to an elder?
00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:53.920
Yeah.
00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:54.399
Yeah.
00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:56.800
That's a very interesting distinction.
00:07:56.959 --> 00:07:57.360
Yeah.
00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:04.000
To me, I've noticed like in the the it's curious because I thought it would be the opposite in the Rites of Passage program.
00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:13.040
I thought that people of color would struggle more with the eldering piece and that white people would struggle more with the communal piece.
00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:15.279
But it actually has been the opposite.
00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:34.559
The people of color, because I we're such a very communal culture, but because our initiation process is a multicultural initiation process, you know, we were stuck with this whole question of like if initiation typically happens culturally specific, how do you do a diverse culturally specific initiation?
00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:39.759
So what we've done is we use ancestral DNA.
00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:42.480
Every person who comes in gets a DNA kit.
00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:49.279
And so so that they can look at their own ancestral DNA and decide literal DNA.
00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:54.240
Yes, literally all the pieces and parts there of themselves.
00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:58.480
So then they can decide which part of their lineage they want to dive deeper into.
00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:04.159
Because we've we've lost the understanding, too, that we're connected to people before us and after us.
00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:08.399
And that we have this long history that gets woven in our own DNA.
00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:14.000
And so then what happens is we can dive deeper into our own ancestral DNA side by side.
00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:17.360
Because we are a culture, a multicultural culture.
00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:19.600
That is the culture we are a part of.
00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:22.639
And when you say initiation, yes.
00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:33.840
You're using a few words, and I have the impression by if I don't ask what you mean by them, we might lose part of the meaning of your words.
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:36.159
Initiation is one of them.
00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:36.879
Yes.
00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:40.080
And there's lots of initiations that we go through in our lifetime.
00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:47.200
There's the initiation of being born, there's the initiation of like the terrible twos we talk about.
00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:51.039
You know, there's a concept where you start getting that I, my own personal stuff.
00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:59.120
There's an initial initiation point that's like around seven or eight, and growing into your girlhood or your boyhood.
00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:05.919
You know, our family had initiation, you know, that when you turn, I think it was 12, you got your own laundry basket.
00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:06.960
Something like that, right?
00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:09.039
You do it yourself now.
00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:11.120
Exactly, exactly, you know.
00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:14.720
So there's all kinds of different initiations in our in our life.
00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:21.039
The initiation that I'm speaking about is this adolescent moving from adolescent to adult.
00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:24.720
So many of us get stuck in this adolescent adult space.
00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:31.279
We're in these grown people bodies, so we think we've grown up, but we haven't grown in our own.
00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:42.320
What I think is asked of us at initiation is that we move from being earth-led in our decision making to being spiritual led in our decision making.
00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:47.840
And that doesn't mean that you ignore the earthly pieces because we are divine beings and human beings.
00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:49.600
We're in these human bodies.
00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:55.759
It's that we lead with a kind of the upper part of the heart chakra and uppers.
00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:01.120
You know, we lead from a more um our spiritual selves than our divine, our human selves.
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:05.279
Which means okay, so there are a few so much to unpack.
00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:22.960
One piece that I find interesting is that the initiations you cited before the maybe the final one or the final one that you cited are all done to you or led by biology.
00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:23.360
Yeah.
00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:32.639
Around age of two, it all happened, it happens to almost all children, unless there is a dysfunction to find the ego and the eye.
00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:33.279
Yes.
00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:39.519
And then there's the puberty, the biological, physiological change of the body.
00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:46.000
And then suddenly there is then the maturity that is must be initiated by ourselves.
00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:46.879
Yes.
00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:51.279
We have to warn in order to get into adulthood.
00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:57.360
Well, now we do, but I think a lot of cultures have had initiatory processes in them.
00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:09.279
When your culture loses that, you know, one of the things Melodomus Omei had said was that when we're not initiation the youth, they will burn down the village just to feel its warmth.
00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:12.559
Because the soul knows it has to be initiated.
00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:16.720
And so he says, in the West, we've chosen to do initiation mostly through trauma.
00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:23.440
You know, we'll do it through illness, we'll do it through all kinds of stuff because we don't have these processes set up.
00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:27.759
Well, we have to grow up and to stand up for ourselves.
00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:28.559
Yes.
00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:30.799
And then oftentimes we don't do them.
00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:35.039
So we get this trauma traumatic experience, and we don't grow up, right?
00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:56.320
And I think part of it, if you're looking at like, I love Carol Pearson's work on the heroine within and the hero's journey, because what she talks about is the first process of, you know, a lot of us know the hero's journey, the departure or the preparation, is actually a journey of the ego.
00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:02.240
It's do you have a strong enough ego to be in this world and not of it, right?
00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:09.519
It's that peace about not because so often when we talk about ego, we're just talking about shadow ego, but ego isn't just shadow.
00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:19.679
You know, there's a there's a German story about this town, this German town that figured out how to trap the ego in the box.
00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:32.000
And what they found is there were no more celebrations of births or birthdays, no businesses opened, no like these things, no anniversaries celebrated, no weddings.
00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:38.240
Because you have to have the light side of the ego to be able to see those things as important.
00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:43.120
And so they decided to let it go and experience all of what the ego brings.
00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:44.799
That's beautiful.
00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:52.559
Because I I think that, and that's something that I had to experience rather late in my life.
00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:55.679
That in order to love, we have to start with self-love.
00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:56.320
Yes.
00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:58.480
Because you can't give something you don't have.
00:13:58.720 --> 00:13:59.279
Exactly.
00:13:59.519 --> 00:13:59.919
You know?
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:00.159
Yeah.
00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:05.679
And then and the so we do need ego because it's a deep sense of self.
00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:10.320
And if we don't have this deep sense of self, how can we feel compassion to others?
00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:10.960
Yeah.
00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:11.840
Yeah.
00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:15.840
And I will say, you know, so that first part of preparation is the ego stuff.
00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:18.639
And oftentimes we're there, we'll go to see a therapist.
00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:26.639
And the therapist's job is to try to help us get okay with our job or okay with our spouse or okay with our life, right?
00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:29.360
It's the physical, the earthly stuff, right?
00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:31.360
Spirit doesn't care about those things.
00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:34.639
Spirit doesn't care if you lose your job or if your marriage falls apart.
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.279
Spirit just wants your soul to meet itself.
00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:42.960
And so then what happens is in the journey itself, in the middle of the journey, there's this crumbling.
00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:50.960
And that's what we avoid because we're afraid of what we'll have to give up for the new person or the new person that we're to step into.
00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:54.000
And that's when we hang on to our beliefs.
00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:54.720
Oh wow.
00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:55.360
Yes.
00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:55.679
Yeah.
00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:56.240
Yeah.
00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:02.240
And if you don't have a strong enough ego from that beginning, you can't make it through the soul's journey completely.
00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:05.279
You like start to go and then you go back, right?
00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:07.759
Because you you don't have it.
00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.840
You can't stand in that space of crumble and then the the finding the new.
00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:16.639
Because then what I you don't have anything to rely on and to fall back to you.
00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.639
You have to surrender and know that it's not all about you.
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:29.519
That because we are spiritual beings having a human experience and not the other way around, human beings who sometimes have spiritual ones.
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:34.559
Then what happens is that we have to surrender.
00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:38.960
We're in a relationship with the divine, whatever that means to you.
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:42.080
We don't get to decide all of the particulars.
00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:45.600
And this sounds like a very like a calling.
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:52.639
So you have then the strong sense of you know what you've got to do, basically.
00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:59.600
Well, I think what it what it does is it starts to get us, I think, on the journey where we know more.
00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:01.519
You know, it's not a one and done.
00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:05.519
It's not like once you've been through that initiation, you know everything.
00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:09.679
It's a still, it's an ongoing relationship with yourself.
00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:13.919
And you know, your soul so desperately wants to meet itself.
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:22.159
And then what happens is in the return of the journey, it it actually, so this the journey itself is the journey of the soul.
00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:25.279
The return of the journey is the journey of the self.
00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:31.919
It's where you start to decide, oh, now that I know these things about me, what is it that I want?
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:34.000
What is it am I calling for?
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:38.799
I have a Native American medicine woman friend who I was talking to last year.
00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:47.200
We were talking on the phone, and she said to me at the end of our phone call, she says, you know, you can go after all that you want.
00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:56.080
And the ancestors say that they'll provide all that you need, and all that you need is bigger than your wildest dreams.
00:16:56.960 --> 00:16:59.120
And I said, okay, wait a minute, you gotta say that again.
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:02.000
Because I was like, I have to like let that soak into me.
00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:14.400
Because she said it again, and I said, I always thought what was bigger than my wildest dreams is what I wanted, not what I needed, you know, and that they'll provide bigger than my wildest dreams.
00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:16.240
So why do I block that?
00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:26.559
And what I realized is because unconsciously, I think we know that bigger than our wildest dreams is connected to what we've promised to do this lifetime.
00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:29.200
And often I just don't want that responsibility.
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:42.319
And so I avoid or I or I sabotage the blessings coming in because I know that it comes with responsibility, and that's the growing up.
00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:48.240
The growing up in the sense to stand up to the responsibility and to be ready for it.
00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:50.480
Yes, to accept what's yours.
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:58.240
You know, Maya Angelou said that actually she says, you know, modesty and humility are two very different things.
00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:02.480
She says, modesty will fall off quicker than a G string on a stripper.
00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:09.759
She says, but real humility says somebody else paved the way for me.
00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:13.680
Now it's my turn to pave the way for someone else.
00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:17.039
That's the responsibility.
00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:19.759
And then it's growing beyond the ego.
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:20.480
Yes.
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:24.480
First finding and growing the ego and then going beyond, if I understand you.
00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:35.279
Yeah, and and mostly because, like I think about what I feel called to do, as opposed to so often I think we're told that our passion is our calling, and I don't think that's true.
00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:38.480
I think often our calling are things that we don't want to do.
00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:41.680
You know, we can do them with our passion.
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:50.640
But our calling, and I think it's purposeful that there are things we don't want to do because I think that it keeps our ego out of it when we don't want to do it.
00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:52.480
I can have conversations with people.
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:53.680
There's jobs that I know.
00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:59.200
There's one job that I got that they came to me and two other people and asked us to put a proposal together.
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:00.160
And it wasn't a real proposal.
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:01.920
It was like, what's your philosophy?
00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:03.359
How much money will you charge us?
00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:05.119
Are you ready on these dates?
00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:11.279
And I remember, and it was training like 150 people in circle.
00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:15.200
And I remember praying that I wouldn't get it because I just didn't want to do it.
00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:20.799
And then what happened is the space had some like layoffs.
00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:27.599
They like laid off almost a third of their people and then created like that many more new jobs.
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:32.640
And then I knew before they even reached back out to me, oh crap, it's me.
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:40.240
Because part of what I bring is not only the hosting of what they were looking for, but also grief.
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:45.359
And what they just were walking into was this grief that was created.
00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:55.200
You know, there's one person there who said that she was so had such survivors' guilt on her team, she was the only one left, you know?
00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:58.880
And so that was mine to do, even though I didn't want to do it.
00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:00.559
You know, but I'm obedient.
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:08.880
And so when I interview her, when I do, I can be clear and honest because I'm not attached to whether or not they say, yes, we want you.
00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:11.279
And I'm curious in two things.
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:14.160
One is why you didn't want to do it.
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:16.799
Was it self-sabotage?
00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:20.319
Was it No, I'll tell you why I didn't want to do it.
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:22.640
I didn't want to do it because I'm a survivor.
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:30.960
And one of the things that makes me really good at what I do is that I can feel where everybody is in the room.
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:36.640
And I can know kind of like the next movement that I need to do to hold everybody and where everybody is.
00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:39.200
This was a group of 150 people.
00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:42.319
Once it gets past a certain number, I can't feel everybody.
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.799
And so I start to not feel safe.
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:46.960
But I know that's not, it's not true.
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:51.200
I just feel, I mean, it's just part of my own history.
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:55.200
And I, you know, and I got there, and I feel that way beforehand.
00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:56.880
But when I got there, I know what to do.
00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.839
I know how to do my job and what I'm called to do.
00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:02.160
And so I wasn't afraid when I was there.
00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:05.119
I just got afraid thinking about being there.
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:08.000
Which I have to know that about myself too.
00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:12.240
And the safety isn't external, safety is internal.
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:13.279
Thank you.
00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:22.640
And um, I'm glad that I asked the question because I think when we speak about healing, that's what we often forget what it actually means.
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:29.359
So to recognize when you do have a what's the impact of your past trauma.
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:29.920
Yeah.
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:39.759
To recognize your trauma response, and then in your case, to distinguish, okay, this is just this is my body believing that it's still real.
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:40.559
Yeah.
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:49.519
And choosing to do it anyway, which is then yeah, growth, maturity, or courage, whatever you want to call it.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:59.839
Well, one of the things I love that you brought the word courage up because I was with a friend and she had just given a speech one day on courage, and she said for the first time she saw the word courage.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.319
Courage and saw the word rage in it.
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:07.519
And realized that every courageous act has a bit of rage in it.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:18.400
And that made me think of Aaron John, his Robert Bly's book, where he talks about, he says, anger is personal, rage is communal, it's archetypal.
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:22.000
And it made me think, what if courage by definition is archetypal?
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:26.640
And so I started, like just, you know, the way things work with me, they just kind of work me.
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:27.759
And so I'm thinking about this.
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:35.759
I'm traveling, and about four people told me on this particular trip, well, you know, the beginning of courage core is heart, heart rage.
00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:41.359
And so then James Hillman writes about the three different philosophies of the heart.
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:45.680
He talks about how it's the physical heart, the blood-pumping heart.
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:49.440
He talks about the passionate heart, what pulls us from the inside out.
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.680
And he talks about the essence or the heart of the matter, right?
00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:55.359
The essence of something.
00:22:55.680 --> 00:23:09.839
And so I started to think, what if when we choose and act courageous, what we're really doing is stepping out of a personal fear into honoring a collective truth.
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:16.559
And with knowing that, help us to choose courage more often when we really got that it isn't just about us.
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:25.279
And when we choose and act courageous, maybe it just heals all three of those pieces of our hearts at the same time.
00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:27.519
I love that.
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:32.799
Because without fear, they wouldn't we wouldn't need to be courageous in the first place.
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:33.839
Yes.
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:35.119
And yeah.
00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:42.240
And I also think, you know, anger is unprocessed personal grief.
00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:46.400
And rage is unprocessed, communal grief.
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:53.920
And so sometimes when that rage comes up, we have to know it feels different in the body when we're angry than when we're enraged.
00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:58.079
You know, and so to know like that enragement requires community.
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:04.000
Sabang Fu Somme said that we are wounded in community, and so the healing has to happen there too.
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:15.599
And I think that's something that is currently going wrong on so many levels that we see all this anger and rage going on.
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:16.640
Yes.
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:23.440
And the only way to go past that is to dig deeper to see what lays beyond.
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:32.880
And I would be curious what you mean by grief, because I would add that beyond the anger can also be fear.
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:35.839
And I would see fear differently than grief.
00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:40.079
Well, I think fear doesn't ever exist in the present moment.
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:42.880
Fear always exists in the past or the future.
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:45.200
When I'm in the present moment, I'm never afraid.
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:51.119
Fear is I can be afraid of what might happen, or I can be afraid of what has happened in the past.
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:54.160
But usually in that present moment, it's not fear.
00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:58.240
It may be pain in that moment because something's happening, but it's not fear.
00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:00.720
You know?
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.720
And so part of it is knowing that fear doesn't exist in the present moment.
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:08.240
If you're feeling afraid, the thing to do is get really present.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:09.839
This makes a lot of sense.
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:17.920
And hence beyond anger, rage must be something else than fear, and that's then grief.
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:19.119
Yes.
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:48.079
And yes, I think it's, you know, I think like uh one of the things, one of so I have wonderful elders in my life, and one of the elders is Fanshan Shuer, who's this diva, shaman, dancer, Jewish woman who who I said I've met so she could teach me audacity, you know, and one of the things that she's taught me, and I really believe this to be true: shame, blame, and guilt are not emotions.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:51.279
They're actually where we go to hide from emotions.
00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:55.119
And the emotion is usually just deep grief and sadness.
00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:01.519
And so often we'll take the shame, blame, or guilt instead of taking responsibility.
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:05.440
But real responsibility just means the ability to respond.
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:08.880
You know, that if you're in it, you hold a piece of that.
00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:18.400
And so this piece around like every time I hear in a room the shame, blame, or guilt come up, I ask the question, what are you trying not to feel?
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:25.920
You know, to help us because it actually gets us stuck when we're holding on to the shame, blame, and guilt.
00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:26.799
Yeah.
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:31.119
I had that um recently actually with my my girlfriend.
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:33.039
I was I was so angry.
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:35.759
So I called her whether I could rant for a while.
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:36.160
Yeah.
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:39.359
So we had a video call and I rent, I'm so angry, I'm sure angry.
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:40.720
I'm very good at anger.
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:48.559
That's the emotion in my family that's that was absolutely okay instead of sadness.
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:51.680
These weak emotions.
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:57.519
So as I was ranting, she then looked at me and said, Um, do I see fear in your face?
00:26:58.720 --> 00:26:59.839
What do you mean?
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:06.079
And as I calmed down and connected to the fear and connected to the emotions, that's what I saw.
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:13.200
The fear of all different kinds of situations that I projected in my mind.
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:19.519
And to just suppress these, I became angry at this other person.
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:37.680
And the moment where I could connect to my own, where I could own my response and the fear or maybe the sadness around it, I could reach out with compassion and heal the situation, which was amazing actually to realize that.
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:38.640
Yeah.
00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:44.319
I think one of the things is I think fear is also a developmental thing.
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:53.599
You know, when we're little kids and we're trying to learn how to walk, it's good to have a little bit of fear, you know, to like so we don't like fall on our face and all that, right?
00:27:53.759 --> 00:28:00.319
To like, but I think as we grow up, hopefully we're not paying attention to every step we're making now, you know?
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:11.759
And I think there's a point where fear turns into an invitation, you know, there and as we grow older to surrender that and be invited into.
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:16.720
So, like, what's the invitation in those moments?
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:20.160
Yeah, and on the other side of fear is usually growth.
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:21.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:22.400
Yes.
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:29.200
I'm at a point where most of the time, like if I'm afraid, I'm probably more likely to do it than not.
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:33.440
Because I know as I've grown, I'm not afraid of little shit anymore.
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:38.799
So if it's showing up and I'm afraid, it's because something, it's because the ego is trying to hold on.
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:40.240
Because you care.
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:42.160
Something is at stake.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:52.000
Yes, and so something's but something's trying to grow in me, and the shadow ego doesn't want to let go because it knows that change is coming if I do this.
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:56.319
And so that's why I can be afraid and do it anyway.
00:28:57.839 --> 00:28:58.240
Yeah.
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:05.359
There is something you said, and I'm reminded, so you didn't want to take this gig and you did it anyway.
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:06.160
Yes.
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:11.200
And there was this survivor guilt in the space.
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:11.839
Yeah.
00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:18.559
And I think the survivor's guilt often turns into shame, into something that is not expressed.
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:19.440
Yes.
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:22.079
I think, yeah, and again, that's grief, right?
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:27.119
So it's not on process when shame, blame, or guilt shows up, it's what are you trying not to feel?
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:28.079
It's the grief.
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:35.119
And one of the things in this particular organization is, you know, they were trying to move right on to 2.0.
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:42.000
They weren't taking time, it's the slowing down so that there can be an an emptying out of grief.
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:47.920
One of the places in work that we don't pay enough attention to is organizational grief.
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:51.119
You know, people will leave even for good reasons.
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:55.440
They've, you know, retired or they got a new job, and we don't take time for the grief.
00:29:55.519 --> 00:30:01.920
And so what happens is organizations start to hear things like, you know, well, so-and-so didn't do it this way, because you're still holding on to so-and-so's way.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:02.559
It's a new person.
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:04.079
I'm not that person, right?
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:10.480
Or like there's this holding on or this not like resistance to the change because we haven't done the grief.
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:12.880
So that there's room for the new to come in.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.599
So, how do you how do you do grief?
00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:21.519
You know, I think one of the biggest misconceptions about grief is that we all grieve differently.
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:22.880
I don't think that's true.
00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:25.119
I think we all avoid grief differently.
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:28.559
And like that story gives us permission to avoid it.
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:32.799
But I think the grief is just letting your emotions flow through you.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:35.039
And I think that grief requires community.
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:38.559
You have to know that somebody's there who won't let you drown in it.
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:41.039
We're all afraid we'll drown in the grief.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:43.519
And so we'll never go to the bottom of the grief.
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:47.200
If we're doing it by ourselves, we'll go right shy at the bottom and we'll come back.
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:52.720
But until you go all the way to the bottom of the grief, you don't get access to the gifts that have come in with that grief.
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:57.920
You know, and I love what Martin Brachtel, who's of mind descent, has talked about around grief.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:01.359
He says, you know, grief isn't sadness, grief is release.
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:07.519
It's like when you're grieving the thing that you've got, we are when you're grieving the thing that you've lost, we call it grief.
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:10.720
When you're grieving the thing that you've got, we call it praise.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:14.880
But to really know how to praise something, you need to know what would be lost if it was gone.
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:18.400
And I think about it as a sphere.
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:27.759
If you think about your emotions in the sphere, if you're blocking the grief, you block the joy because it grows together.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:34.960
So all of my coaching clients know that I get real excited when they start crying, they're grieving because I know it doesn't come by itself.
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:43.279
So many of us have had the experience of when you have a really good cry, oftentimes you'll start laughing or you feel so much, you feel so much better afterwards, right?
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:48.640
Because it's you just opened up more access to the joy as you've gone deeper into the grief.
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:49.920
It's very interesting.
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:54.559
Um, I worked with plant medicine quite um a lot recently.
00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:58.799
And when big, big cries.
00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:01.839
Yes, kind of intergenerational cries.
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:07.759
And I've always found it difficult to explain what it is because it is not sadness.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:15.920
No, I'm not crying because I'm sad, and I'm crying all these tears for myself and all these generations.
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:18.960
And it's now that I understand.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:20.799
Yes, it's grief.
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:21.519
Huh.
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:22.160
Thank you.
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:23.039
Welcome.
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:31.039
It's the emptying out, whether that shows up as praise or whether that shows up as what we typically think of as grief.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:32.559
It's just that emptying out.
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:38.000
And I think so often we don't want to go into the grief because we're afraid of the suffering.
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:44.400
But what I learned years ago is that grief doesn't require suffering.
00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:46.160
Grief is just sad.
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:49.200
The suffering is the resistance to the grief.
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:50.000
Yes.
00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:51.440
Yeah.
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:56.160
Because just crying tears is extremely relieving.
00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:56.880
Yes.
00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:04.559
And holding back and telling ourselves all these stories about these tears and the stories about the sadness.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:05.839
That's what hurts.
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:06.640
Yes.
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:10.160
Or like that, you know, just letting it flow through us.
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:13.680
The other thing that I think is we just want to know too much sometimes.
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:18.960
Like, like I want to know if I'm grieving, why, like what's happening.
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:21.359
But I don't have to know to let it go.
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:23.039
You know?
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:31.039
I just, you know, oftentimes if I find myself I start getting really weepy or grieving, I go into prayer, please help me not block this.
00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:32.319
Let it go.
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:33.839
Just let it go.
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:35.839
But we still want to figure everything out.
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:39.200
We don't have to figure everything out to release it.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:53.519
And yeah, and I think the what I realized over the past years, where also the the medicine became easier and the release, was the moment that I allowed to feel with my body.
00:33:53.759 --> 00:34:02.319
Because before, and I think I mentioned that so many times on the podcast, before when someone asked me where do you feel it in your body, I would paint point at my head.
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:06.480
I can feel it right there, because I can make sense of it.
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:13.440
But to actually use the embodied sense of grief and um feelings, and then we don't need to understand.
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:14.000
Yes.
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:18.000
We just need to exercise, right?
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:20.719
It's not an intellectual exercise.
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:27.199
So how does you said that you don't believe that there are different ways to grieve?
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:30.800
There are only different ways to numb or avoid the grief.
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:32.559
And I would be curious.
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:34.400
So how do we grieve?
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:37.199
And on three levels.
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:39.679
How do we grieve individually?
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.480
How do we grieve on an organizational or on the collective level?
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:47.679
And how do organizations grieve?
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:59.360
Yeah, I I think that um, you know, I've held lots of individuals and families and organizations and and grief work, and part of it is just showing up for each other.
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:02.079
You know, we can create little rituals that are simple.
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:09.679
I'm always looking for what's the lightest touch, you know, to be together and to be able to speak or sometimes not speak.
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:21.360
One of the rituals that I do with organizations often is I'll bring a bowl of water and I'll bring water-soluble paper and have people write onto the paper what they're willing to let go of.
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:26.159
And then we hold space for each person going to put it into the water.
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:35.440
Now they don't have to speak out what it is that they're real to be witnessed in it, you know, because some people are shy about sharing the details.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:41.280
But then what we ask is I always ask, if you give something up, the universe hates a void.
00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:48.880
So then we do, we're witnessed in speaking what we want to replace it in those moments, you know.
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:51.119
Which might be even more scary.
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:56.880
Because the moment we speak out what we want, yeah, and we don't know how it's gonna come.
00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:09.519
Not only do we not know like how it's gonna come, but then it can be like, you know, we can feel like we're exposed a bit, right?
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:19.280
But I think there's ways to speak it in whatever layer of that we want to speak, you know, that they're showing up for you in that time, in that space.
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:22.320
And part of it is can we allow ourselves to have it?
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:25.360
Yeah, and I think they're it's interesting.
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:40.880
Yeah, now it's comes full circle because we only if we allow, we can only allow ourselves to have it if we let go of the limiting beliefs that we are not good enough to have it, that we're not strong enough, that we're not supposed to all these kinds of things.
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:41.360
Yeah.
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:44.559
So we cannot have it as long as this is blocking us.
00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:54.639
Part of my training includes integral theory and spiral dynamics, Donbeck's work and spiral dynamics and the evolution of consciousness.
00:36:54.800 --> 00:37:01.679
And one of the things that I added as a black woman is I actually added an extra value meme at the bottom.
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:10.400
And I call it a black value meme because we are, I believe we're all born from a collective.
00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:15.280
And so we're birthed from the collective, so you come in belonging.
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:22.960
And so then that changes the spiral because it means growth and development isn't individual, collective, individual, collective, individual, collective.
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:28.320
Instead, then growth and development is collective, individual, collective, individual, collective, individual.
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:32.800
And if you do that, you can align it with the chakras and you can see the evolution as we go up.
00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:40.880
And I think if we really knew that we were birthed into the collective, so that you cannot not belong.
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:45.440
You come in belonging, it would change everything.
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:51.360
You know, one of the biggest needs for us as humans is the sense of belonging.
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:53.760
What if you knew you could not not belong?
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:56.400
Then you would know that I could not not belong.
00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:57.519
Yeah.
00:37:57.920 --> 00:38:04.159
And I think that's the sad part about the missing initiation.
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:12.000
What you mentioned before that in today's societies, especially the non-black societies, if I understand you right.
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:13.679
I'll just say people of color.
00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:15.360
I wouldn't even just say black societies.
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:16.079
Thank you.
00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:16.559
Yeah.
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:22.000
Or let's say in societies where this collective is missing, individual societies.
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:23.840
Let's call them individual societies.
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:34.480
Where the initiation from adolescence to adulthood is missing in the collective and hence often done via trauma.
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:34.880
Yeah.
00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:42.159
This means that the memory we have is that when we grow up, we're by ourselves.
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:42.880
Yes.
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:50.880
So trauma often makes us feel like the divine left us and that then we're responsible for our own survival.
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:53.760
But I always say, my survival is none of my business.
00:38:53.920 --> 00:39:01.760
Now, that doesn't mean I'm gonna run out in the middle of the street in front of a car, but my job is to show up and to keep my promise of what I said I would do this lifetime.
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:10.079
You know, but what I think happens then, this whole idea that we're responsible for our own survival makes us think that we can be independent.
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:15.199
I think independence or the idea of independence is a trauma response.
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:17.440
I think that we're all dependent.
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:21.360
We're breathing the same air, we're drinking the same water, we're walking on the same earth.
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:25.280
And so the question isn't whether or not we're independent or dependent.
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:27.840
The question is what kind of dependence are we?
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:33.840
When we're standing in lack and scarcity, then we're codependents.
00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:37.920
When we're standing in love and abundance, then we're interdependent.
00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:39.760
But we're all always dependent.
00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:43.280
Now you get to be an individual, you just don't get to be independent.
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:49.679
And then it's about finding the balance between autonomy and belonging.
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:50.800
Yes.
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:54.239
Yes, because each of us are needed.
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:59.039
We each come with a unique genius in the world to solve an issue here.
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:03.119
I think we are our most underutilized resource.
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:08.639
You know, I think we could solve all the issues on the planet by initiating all of the adults.
00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:11.760
And we're just not getting access to that.
00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:16.559
And so, you know, evolution knows we need to be initiated.
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:21.360
So it keeps sending us things to try to initiate us.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:30.960
And often I'll say, often what happens when the men aren't being initiated in a culture, wars will break out.
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:34.079
Because that trauma is a way of initiation.
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:39.360
So how can we help each other to find this initiation?
00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:45.679
Well, the first thing I think is is you have to find it for yourself.
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:50.559
We so think by saving the world we'll save ourselves, but it's only the opposite.
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:56.480
By doing our own work, we are able to contribute in saving the world.
00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:09.440
You know, I think it's uh I remember at one point a friend said to me, you know, after some traumatic event, I just hope people will get up and go out and just serve and help and do all this stuff.
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:11.840
I said, no, I hope they'll go the hell in.
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:18.239
I hope they'll go into themselves so that we have more wisdom in the world.
00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:20.639
You know, we said we don't have a lack of leaders.
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:23.039
Leadership just means people are following you.
00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:25.119
It says nothing about where you're taking them.
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:29.039
We have a lack of wise leaders, and wisdom comes through initiation.
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:31.039
I love this so much.
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:38.320
And one thing that comes to my mind is I would call it for a lack of a better word, toxic activism.
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:39.280
Yes.
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:51.599
Of what I observe are many people going out with almost with rage and best intentions to save the world and to do good.
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:56.960
And I think, yeah, you put it so I haven't seen that.
00:41:57.119 --> 00:42:06.159
I think what is actually needed is that they first go inwards and heal themselves and then can become active in a healthy activism.
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:08.639
I don't believe in a righteous anger.
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:10.320
And there's lots of people who go out.
00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:25.599
Matter of fact, one of the activities I because I work with a lot of activists, is I have them do this activity where they actually get to stand in front of a partner, and I have them first get a strong stance and then think about something that they hate.
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:28.400
And I ask the person to try to push them over.
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:34.400
And then I have them do it again and think of something that they love, and I have the person try to push them over.
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:38.079
And it's much easier to push a person over when they're standing in something that they hate.
00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:44.159
Carolyn Me says, we have got to move from the revolution into the involution.
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:49.679
We have to stop revolting against what we don't want and start standing for what we do.
00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:52.559
You know, that's the creating these new systems.
00:42:52.800 --> 00:43:03.840
I love, I'm working with a university out in Oregon and California here in the US, and we're training med students in circle practice, Western University.
00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:09.119
They have created these care teams so the med students can hold each other.
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:12.719
So hopefully they do more than just survive med school.
00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:14.159
You know?
00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:19.360
They're working on the involution, not just the revolution.
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:22.800
And this is our fifth year with these first-year med students.
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:26.320
We're training all first-year med students in circle practice.
00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:29.199
So I've gotten past the 150.
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:31.840
We trained 330 last year.
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:39.039
And this, yeah, and this then helps them to hold themselves and each other.
00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:39.840
Yes.
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:45.840
And now what we're talking about is what if we introduced it into the third year when they start seeing patients?
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:54.320
And so then we can circle not just with them, but then implementing it into how are you in a room with your patients and holding them?
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:56.000
Yeah.
00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:59.679
Can you, for those who are not familiar with circle practice?
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:00.239
Yes.
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:07.920
Um maybe give a little example of how it would look like being with each other with the practice or without.
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:08.480
Yes.
00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:12.159
And so some of the just like simple, again, what's the lightest touch?
00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:15.760
Some of the things we talk about is having a check-in question.
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:20.400
You know, and oftentimes people will think of icebreakers, but it's not an icebreaker.
00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:25.760
You know, it's like moving from one of the um a check-in question, it invites a deeper level of conversation.
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:30.159
So an icebreaker would be something like, what's your favorite ice cream?
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:34.800
A check-in question could be, what's your favorite ice cream and why?
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:38.320
It invites a deeper story, you know?
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:41.280
And so we talk about like a check-in question.
00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:42.719
Start with a check-in question.
00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:44.639
Just get everybody in the room in community.
00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:47.199
We start in community and we end in community.
00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:53.199
And then we have um, we could have a talking piece that we pass around so everybody gets a chance.
00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:56.559
And then we have a something in the center of the circle.
00:44:56.719 --> 00:45:02.079
Sometimes they don't, they're just, you know, imagine the center of circle that holds everything that has been said.
00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:05.039
So one of the things I love about circles is you don't have to answer somebody.
00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:08.000
If somebody says something, it's not asking for an answer.
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:09.760
We just put everything into the center.
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:12.320
And then the understanding can grow.
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:14.960
And then do a checkout question before you leave.
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:20.960
And often a checkout question that I love is what is a gift that you've received in this conversation today?
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:23.440
And it can be as simple as that.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:25.679
But we need to be witnessed.
00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:38.320
And it's about, you know, um, another elder, Jojo Palmeria, for me, she um she used to uh say, she always says the world is out to gift me and not to get me.
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:47.119
And she says that in the Bible where it says, thou shall not bear false witness, it's like it's not about just lying.
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:51.199
It's about not bearing witness to each other, not witnessing each other.
00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:53.920
And I think about how much I do that every day.
00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:59.119
Like I just I'm busy or I'm doing something, and so I'm not like really witnessing.
00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:08.480
And I think it's about moving to like, how do I not just tell my story, but share my story?
00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:10.079
And I think there's a difference.
00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:14.800
Tell your story has all the details, and you can even have emotion with it when you're telling it.
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:22.480
But sharing your story actually takes the person or the people there with you so they feel it in the way that your heart felt it.
00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:36.880
And we can develop our skill level in learning how to listen deep enough that you listen people into sharing their story, are sharing deep enough that I share people into listening to my story into bearing witness, right?
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:41.440
And when we can get to that level, both of us are transformed in the process.
00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:46.719
Yeah, because the sharing means that you're giving away a part.
00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:47.679
Yes.
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:48.639
Yes.
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:50.639
That's beautiful.
00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:53.840
And we all know people who tell their story over and over again.
00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:56.079
And we're like, oh my goodness, here's this story again.
00:46:56.239 --> 00:47:02.480
And I think it's because unconsciously we know our way out is our stories, our way out is the sharing of the stories.
00:47:02.559 --> 00:47:05.599
But sometimes we can't make the leap from telling it to sharing it.
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:06.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:20.559
And I think it's because we do need the space to feel safe enough to share it, and that the other person is also open to receive it, because sharing is a two-way street.
00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:23.360
We cannot share if the other person doesn't receive.
00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:30.639
And I well, unless we've developed our skill deep enough to share it into sharing them into witnessing.
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:37.119
That's what I'm saying is it doesn't, it can come from either side because we're connected, you know.
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:48.559
That's what it means to like you can move things in three different ways body to body is force, mind to mind is persuasion, and spirit to spirit is inspiration.
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:51.679
You show up in spirit and share your story.
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:58.559
And what happens is your heart speaks directly to theirs, your souls are connected, and it commands them to show up.
00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:01.119
They don't even have a choice whether to come or not.
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:05.920
You know, again, we'll say we're all connected, but what the hell does that mean in action?
00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:07.920
This is what it means.
00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:08.719
Yeah.
00:48:08.960 --> 00:48:10.000
And it's true.
00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:14.880
If we are sharing from our heart and with conviction, there is no escape.
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:18.079
People will receive it and will be present.
00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:18.880
Yes.
00:48:19.039 --> 00:48:19.519
Yeah.
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:27.519
I was thinking back to the example of uh the doctor with patience.
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:37.440
And which is a beautiful example because I think that we forget that patients also very often just want to be witnessed.
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:43.840
They don't need a response or an answer to everything they're saying.
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:47.039
It's simply I see you, I hear you.
00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:48.079
Yes.
00:48:48.400 --> 00:48:49.039
Yes.
00:48:50.719 --> 00:49:02.880
And we're speaking about the inner work and about grief and about healing, encircling what does it all mean for the DEI work?
00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:11.039
I think we have forgotten that DEI is just about healing and wholeness.
00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:13.440
I think DEI people have forgotten that.
00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:24.480
You know, I think again in this adolescent adult culture that we still want to make everybody else responsible for us.
00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:40.639
There's a group I was with, and one woman said to me, I, well, first of all, I was at this with this organization that was hosting a bunch of organizations, and they were the facilitators were having issues with the host of this gathering.
00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:46.639
And so they asked if me and one of my partners, this was not my, it's like this was not my party.
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:50.000
I was just gonna present one piece of it.
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:56.480
And they asked if we would be willing to mediate between them and the host.
00:49:57.039 --> 00:50:03.360
And my response to them was, well, let's take a break and we can, you know, we'll come back.
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:06.239
And they said to us, well, because they had been on a break.
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:10.480
We didn't know if they were coming back, they actually had been off talking for like over two hours.
00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:14.239
And so they said, Well, we, you know, we really want to do it now.
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:18.239
And I said, Well, I need a couple minutes to powwow with my friend over here.
00:50:18.639 --> 00:50:21.679
And they were offended because I used the word powwow.
00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:29.519
And my response was, you know, I said to them, Well, you know, that was not my intent.
00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:32.320
And that we needed a couple of minutes.
00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:35.519
What I wanted to say to them is, you're asking me to save your ass.
00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:37.519
I don't need to be doing this, right?
00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:47.199
Like, like, and the piece about like, we have gotten so like, hmm, your trigger is not my responsibility.
00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:52.960
Your trigger, by definition, is rooted in your past, not in that present moment.
00:50:53.119 --> 00:51:02.559
And so what we've done so often is we've set up systems where people half know them and they have used them to not take responsibility.
00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:10.159
You know, there's I'm actually in the in the middle of creating um racial healing essence cards.
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:14.960
And it has things like that, like trauma, like trauma is rooted in your past.
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:20.800
So if you're telling me just for information's sake, okay, but that's not my responsibility in any way, shape, or form.
00:51:21.039 --> 00:51:28.400
That's for you to go heal, you know, or even pieces for me, like the whole thing we've gotten around with microaggressions.
00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:34.639
I'm like, do you know what the hell my ancestors went through and this is what you're worried about, or what condition the world is in now?
00:51:35.119 --> 00:51:37.440
And this is what's on your plate?
00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:39.440
I don't have time for that.
00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:46.079
Or even like for me, I think that around even like a lot of organizations, I don't do the pronoun thing.
00:51:46.239 --> 00:51:52.639
And I tell them I don't because we have forgotten that language is negotiated, not dictated.
00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:55.679
And so what we've taken away is the relationship.
00:51:55.840 --> 00:52:01.760
I have to be in relationship with you for it to be important enough for me to shift what I'm doing.
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:07.599
But if you make it like it's automatic and there's no relationship, you're not changing anybody's minds or hearts.
00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:19.679
You're just speaking to the choir, or you're providing an opportunity an opportunity for people to uh to pretend that they get it and they're in it when they're not.
00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:30.719
I used to train HIV and AIDS instructors, and I said, I think during the, you know, that time, first of all, I lost some loved ones who are HIV positive.
00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:37.280
And I think we lost a lot of the elders in that field in the world.
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:44.639
You know, and I think the conversations we've been having around gender and gender identity is often very adolescent.
00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:46.159
What do you mean by that?
00:52:46.639 --> 00:52:53.199
I mean that instead of saying to be a woman is all of these things or to be a man is all of these things, we've just othered everybody.
00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:55.440
And that seems very adolescent to me.
00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:05.360
And I'll also say I'll say this because my son and I, my son, a young gay man, and I were having a conversation uh about queerness.
00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:10.239
And I said to him, if it was getting you what you say you want, I would be all for it.
00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:11.840
But I don't think it is.
00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:15.760
I think you're just speaking to the choir and you're leaving everybody else behind.
00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:25.519
And I said to him, because let's be really clear, if someone feels seen and heard and witnessed by you, they don't care what the hell you call them.
00:53:26.079 --> 00:53:26.480
Yeah.
00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:33.519
Which then brings us back to the to the grief of the motivator of the anger.
00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:44.320
Because yeah, I think the I agree that often we ask the wrong questions or we are leaning into the wrong conversations.
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:45.360
Yeah.
00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:51.599
Um I wonder why gender is a topic in the workplace in the first place.
00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:53.039
Yes.
00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:59.920
I mean, whether I have a penis or a vagina is none of my bosses or my clients' business.
00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:02.239
It's like my religion.
00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:03.519
What do you care?
00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:04.159
Yes.
00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:07.039
So I think it's a very personal thing.
00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:08.800
So why do we care actually?
00:54:09.039 --> 00:54:27.119
But I um I also might be ignorant of um the importance for some people, and then I I hear you that if they would feel listened and appreciated, acknowledged on other levels, maybe the pronouns or the gender wouldn't be as important.
00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:27.840
Yes.
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:29.119
Um yes.
00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:39.840
I was on a board of a non-for-profit years ago, and uh there was a person there who wanted at that time wanted to be called it.
00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:46.320
And I said, There is no way with my ancestry that I'm ever gonna do that.
00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:59.760
And and I also said, we spent here and had a conversation of about, it was about an hour, two-hour conversation about what this person wanted to be called when we couldn't pay our employees.
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:04.239
And I think we've just gotten so off track, you know?
00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:11.679
And I think in this country, I'll say, I think it's easier to deal with conversations around gender than conversations around race.
00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:15.920
And I think a lot of people could feel really progressive because they're talking about gender.
00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:18.880
Because they don't really want to have the conversation around race.
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:20.159
Why is that?
00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:22.079
Because I think we're so afraid of it.
00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:32.079
I think so often there hasn't been spaces where people have really, where people have been grown enough, grown up enough to hold it for us.
00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:35.280
I think we're having the wrong conversations often around race.
00:55:35.519 --> 00:55:39.280
I think most of us aren't mature enough to be in those conversations.
00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:45.760
And I think unconsciously we go into warrior archetype in those conversations.
00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:50.480
Which actually I think the warrior archetype has a real is a real good archetype for the conversations.
00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:54.400
I just think most of us confuse warrior with soldier.
00:55:55.360 --> 00:56:06.480
Where we haven't been, you know, I I see oftentimes, and for me, my job is to train warriors, to grow warriors, not to send you into war.
00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:07.920
People will go in and have the conversation.
00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:09.119
I don't have to do that.
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:19.840
And the way I do that is actually I'm often trying to keep dialogue down and have people do practices that turn them back into themselves.
00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:28.800
To, you know, they can share their story and be witnessed, but it's not about like how the other people feel about your story, it's not about convincing them anything.
00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:34.239
You know, real warriors have a deep love and respect for the person on the other side.
00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:38.800
They know that they care about their cause just as much as you do yours.
00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:44.239
Real warriors are willing to go in the mud and the dirt with you, they're willing to go into the hard places.
00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:50.880
Real warriors know that you can't get something new without giving up something old.
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.719
And real warriors go into war mournfully.
00:56:55.360 --> 00:57:01.679
And I think all that stuff is really good for conversations around race, for lots of conversations, not just race.
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:07.119
But I think that most of us aren't mature enough to be in those conversations.
00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:12.480
And we tend to have systems that throw people into those conversations without building those muscles.
00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:21.679
And I think that the conversation in the having the conversation in the US would be is very different from having the conversation in Europe.
00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:24.239
I think um maybe.
00:57:24.719 --> 00:57:25.519
I don't know.
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:26.880
Yeah, I mean knowing people.
00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:31.599
I think knowing people of color who live in Europe, I don't know if that's true.
00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:32.639
Yeah, true.
00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:33.199
True.
00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:34.880
And then it yeah, true.
00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:42.239
I wonder whether there's so much guilt and shame again associated with it.
00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:46.559
And then I would be curious how this then relates to grief.
00:57:46.880 --> 00:58:00.320
And also, so for instance, I think for me, I'm I feel very vulnerable in these conversations because I realize that I I'm using the wrong language.
00:58:00.800 --> 00:58:09.760
Um, I'm not aware how I am supposed to, and I'm not aware of all the feet that I can step on.
00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:23.360
And I think this makes me then rather maybe avoid the conversations because I'm like, I don't want to come across as a person who's ignorant or racist or whatsoever, just because I'm using the wrong language.
00:58:23.599 --> 00:58:35.039
And I think this is again also a result of asking the right question and putting emphasis and anger and activism onto the wrong things, because it shouldn't be like that.
00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:41.840
Well, I think that it's because they're not warriors holding the conversation or in the conversation.
00:58:42.159 --> 00:58:48.480
Because again, this piece about can we give some each other some grace to be in the conversation?
00:58:48.559 --> 00:58:51.920
We're all gonna screw up, we're all gonna say the wrong thing at a time.
00:58:52.159 --> 00:58:57.519
You know, can we just take if we're not willing to do that, we can't have the conversation, you know?
00:58:57.679 --> 00:59:06.559
And I think there's a piece where, like, even, you know, I hear a lot, especially from people of color, that we don't want to carry the emotional labor.
00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:11.840
And what my elders have taught me is the responsibility is always with the one most healed.
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:15.280
There's people who are more healed than you that are carrying it for you too.
00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:19.360
How else do we expect people to get to get to know things?
00:59:19.599 --> 00:59:33.679
But I think in so many spaces we've been so betrayed in these spaces, all of us, no matter what your race or background is, and these conversations with people who haven't done their own healing to hold the depth of those conversations.
00:59:33.840 --> 00:59:36.559
And so they go sideways and then people are hurt.
00:59:36.800 --> 00:59:45.360
And so, you know, again, the fear of saying those things comes from past experience and what you're afraid might happen in the future.
00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:46.239
Yeah.
00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:50.719
And then how can we have these conversations that are needed?
00:59:50.960 --> 00:59:51.360
Yes.
00:59:51.760 --> 00:59:59.360
Acknowledging that most of us are actually not mature enough or to have them.
00:59:59.920 --> 01:00:03.119
So that's why I have slightly different conversations.
01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:04.559
Well, it's not really a conversation.
01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:06.400
Like I said, I try to keep people out of dialogue.
01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:17.440
I mean, we do talk about what you're noticing, but it may be I set up a trio, and one person's job is to tell the story that may be connected to race or whatever.
01:00:17.679 --> 01:00:21.679
The other person is just deep listening, open heart, open mind, open spirit.
01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:25.119
They're not to say anything, they're just deep listening and witnessing.
01:00:25.360 --> 01:00:33.039
And then the other person I might ask to harvest, harvest what they're hearing that may be connected to like one of the things I'll do is class.
01:00:33.280 --> 01:00:48.159
So, like, one example I'll use is that police here will say they go into poor neighborhoods and they're breaking down doors and stuff like that because of high substance abuse, high alcohol abuse, high domestic violence.
01:00:48.480 --> 01:00:55.679
But we all know those conditions exist in every college campus across the country and they're not breaking down those doors.
01:00:56.000 --> 01:01:02.079
So that's an instance of class that's affecting that story.
01:01:02.320 --> 01:01:04.400
And so they listen for something like that.
01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:10.960
And then what we do is I ask all the people who shared your story, how did it feel to be listened to?
01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:12.559
I don't want to hear your story.
01:01:12.639 --> 01:01:13.679
We're not sharing the stories here.
01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:14.719
You already shared your story.
01:01:14.880 --> 01:01:20.480
I want to know how it feels because we need to know what we're asking of people when we're asking them to share their stories.
01:01:20.719 --> 01:01:23.760
And then I ask, so how did it feel to just listen?
01:01:24.079 --> 01:01:30.639
And not to give advice, not to interrupt, not to just listen with open heart, open mind, open spirit.
01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:34.159
And then I asked for anyone who was the harvester.
01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:35.840
What did you, you know, did you notice?
01:01:35.920 --> 01:01:37.599
What were the places of class?
01:01:37.840 --> 01:01:48.000
And so in its experience that's not a dialogue, and you know, they'll go into those conversations more by themselves, but they're more strengthened.
01:01:48.239 --> 01:01:51.119
We're building warriors to then be in those conversations.
01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:55.360
We're trusting that they will have those conversations with friends and families whenever.
01:01:55.760 --> 01:01:57.519
That I don't have to do that.
01:01:58.960 --> 01:02:02.320
I just am preparing them better to be in the conversations.
01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:04.000
Yeah, I love that.
01:02:04.239 --> 01:02:16.480
And I can see how this will affect them ways beyond these conversations, because these are meta skills that we do need in general to create compassion and healing.
01:02:16.719 --> 01:02:27.519
Um and how would you if you had a magic wand and could redesign the DI space, how would the DI work look like?
01:02:27.840 --> 01:02:30.719
Because I mean, it is a huge crisis at the moment.
01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:33.280
We are recording in March 2025.
01:02:33.599 --> 01:02:34.079
Yes.
01:02:34.960 --> 01:02:35.440
Yes.
01:02:35.599 --> 01:02:42.559
I think first it's uh so often just because you know something intellectually doesn't mean you know it.
01:02:43.840 --> 01:02:48.480
And or that you've done your own work around it, your own internal work.
01:02:48.800 --> 01:02:56.239
I think it's the piece of it's really getting that it's ultimately about health and wholeness.
01:02:57.039 --> 01:02:59.039
It's about compassion.
01:02:59.199 --> 01:03:07.199
We have forgotten the connection between compassion and doing our own grief work, our own healing work.
01:03:08.159 --> 01:03:12.239
If you know, most of us would consider ourselves pretty compassionate people.
01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:14.880
And to a certain extent, we would be right.
01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:22.880
But if you haven't done your own healing, your own depth work, your compassion has no depth, it's very shallow.
01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:26.480
Because if you don't have it for you, you can't give it to another.
01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:33.360
Yes.
01:03:34.159 --> 01:03:51.760
So when you said that shame and guilt always come back to grief, and when I mentioned that a big obstacle to the conversations around race is shame and guilt.
01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:58.320
And then in your language or in in your model, this would be boiled down to grief.
01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:07.199
So what I just realized is and I wonder, does it mean the grief for for ourselves?
01:04:07.440 --> 01:04:13.039
Maybe the oh, I have been suppressed too, I have been discriminated too.
01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:23.760
All of these kind of small things where we felt kind of where we felt being wronged, and first have to grieve for that, that it's okay.
01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:43.679
So I grieve for these moments of acknowledgement, appreciation that I haven't had, and only if I have healed on these small moments, then I can really be in the conversation with someone of color and the trauma and the pain that they have suffered.
01:04:43.920 --> 01:04:45.039
Is this what you mean?
01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:59.760
So, yes, and this is why when Amy and I, our book, The Inner Ground Railroad, Remembering Soul and Spirit, a journey to remembering soul and spirit, is written by me as a woman of color and her as a white woman.
01:04:59.920 --> 01:05:04.800
And it's not about reconciliation between us, it's reconciliation within each of us.
01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:08.800
So she's doing her own healing, and I'm doing my own healing.
01:05:08.880 --> 01:05:14.880
And then we take you through a 40-day journey to do your own healing because it's the piece.
01:05:14.960 --> 01:05:16.880
Again, you can't give what you don't have.
01:05:17.280 --> 01:05:25.039
And so, you know, it's these spaces have to be able to be spaces where we all can grow our internal powers.
01:05:25.280 --> 01:05:25.920
Yeah.
01:05:26.320 --> 01:05:38.559
And it's such a delicate space because to admit the very human emotion of, but I I too, I have been discriminated as I've been bullied at school.
01:05:38.719 --> 01:05:43.519
Yes, and everyone's trauma and situation is their own.
01:05:43.679 --> 01:05:54.639
And I think then to overcome, to acknowledge that it's okay to have that individually, um, and to grieve over that, and it does not mean.
01:05:55.039 --> 01:06:11.519
And what I mean by that is um I think that this shame around that is in the way To really have the conversation and to really understand the magnitude of racism and what people of color are until today going through.
01:06:11.840 --> 01:06:12.320
Yes.
01:06:13.119 --> 01:06:17.360
It's just self-protection, which is so human and so sad.
01:06:17.920 --> 01:06:18.320
Yes.
01:06:18.480 --> 01:06:24.320
And I'll say one of the things that, you know, Amy writes in the book that I think is one of the most powerful lines.
01:06:24.400 --> 01:06:32.239
She says one of the hardest things for her to heal as a white woman is she says we have been purveyors of half-truths and willful not seeing.
01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:38.400
And, you know, and I think that that's a hard thing.
01:06:38.719 --> 01:06:39.760
It's a hard thing.
01:06:39.920 --> 01:06:47.440
And until we can be in spaces, you know, I think the warrior archetype, like I said, has really good gifts for these conversations.
01:06:47.920 --> 01:06:56.159
I just think that, you know, one of the things that is helpful in these conversations is a warrior goes into war mournfully.
01:06:56.320 --> 01:07:02.000
A warrior, the warrior archetype isn't successful if they go into battle.
01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:04.400
They're only successful when they don't.
01:07:04.639 --> 01:07:05.199
You know?
01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:06.400
Knights are different.
01:07:06.480 --> 01:07:10.159
They they're successful when they go into battle and they win, but a warrior isn't.
01:07:10.400 --> 01:07:14.880
And so these pieces are out like how do we grow that strength?
01:07:15.280 --> 01:07:21.519
How do we invite people into listening, invite people and knowing in this time?
01:07:21.679 --> 01:07:28.800
Our job is to grow our capacity to include as many truths in our assessment of what is true as possible.
01:07:29.119 --> 01:07:35.840
In a time where we talk about you have your truth, I have my truth, they have their truth, we can start to believe there's no ultimate truth.
01:07:36.079 --> 01:07:37.039
But there is.
01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:09.199
Yes.
01:08:09.519 --> 01:08:13.519
Love and compassion for self, because if you don't have that for yourself, you can't give it to me.
01:08:13.840 --> 01:08:14.320
Exactly.
01:08:14.559 --> 01:08:20.960
So for self, and then it will autom and then we have space for compassion and love for others.
01:08:21.119 --> 01:08:27.279
And then we have also, if we have curiosity for self, we have curiosity for others.
01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:31.760
And then it's not about the labels and ticking the boxes.
01:08:32.159 --> 01:08:32.399
Yes.
01:08:32.560 --> 01:08:40.960
The other thing I'll say is we're such an entitled people that people have the right to be as prejudiced as they want to be.
01:08:41.199 --> 01:08:43.199
Now behavior is different.
01:08:43.520 --> 01:08:52.880
But what we've moved to try to do is to shift where people like to think that we have the right to tell someone where they should be.
01:08:53.199 --> 01:08:54.159
And we don't.
01:08:54.640 --> 01:09:02.079
If you want freedom to decide what you believe, then the other people have freedom to decide what they believe.
01:09:02.399 --> 01:09:09.359
And I think so often in this time, we're trying to dictate what people should believe.
01:09:09.600 --> 01:09:11.279
And that's not our lane.
01:09:11.520 --> 01:09:22.960
Now we can dictate behavior, but we can't well, well, we can, you know, I mean, we can have boundaries around behavior, but even that, people have choice.
01:09:23.279 --> 01:09:28.720
That's why I say the relationship piece, the fact that we're pulling out more and more of the relationship pieces.
01:09:28.800 --> 01:09:31.840
We're finding more and more reasons not to be together in person.
01:09:32.479 --> 01:09:36.560
You know, we're going to more um automated systems.
01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:52.640
My um someone who works for me put together a video for my Instagram, and he like waited for me to see it because it had it was a wonderful video about the boys' book that I've written and had my voiceover in it, but it wasn't me.
01:09:52.800 --> 01:09:53.920
It wasn't me reading it.
01:09:54.079 --> 01:10:07.520
I mean, it was he had gotten my voice from a Zoom from several Zoom calls and then told it what it wanted me to say, and it sounded like me, and it took pauses and kind of the places I take pauses, but it wasn't me.
01:10:07.680 --> 01:10:09.760
I trust him to put words in my mouth like that.
01:10:09.920 --> 01:10:28.960
But when we're in a place that's finding more opportunities for us not to be together in person, and when your likeness and your voice can be used to look real and sound real, we're creating a clash that I don't know if we're really prepared to.
01:10:29.039 --> 01:10:32.159
I said it's like we're giving two-year-olds the keys to the car.
01:10:32.720 --> 01:10:36.560
Yeah, that's actually what's happening right now with AI.
01:10:37.039 --> 01:10:37.279
Yeah.
01:10:40.239 --> 01:10:46.079
So what we need is more time for community and introspection.
01:10:46.640 --> 01:10:47.039
Yes.
01:10:47.359 --> 01:10:49.039
Yeah, to know each other.
01:10:49.840 --> 01:11:04.960
You know, there I saw on I think it was Facebook recently, someone posted that people are calling and someone when you pick up the phone, they say something, they say hello, and then you say hello, and they say, Can you hear me?
01:11:05.359 --> 01:11:08.000
And when you say yes, they record your voice.
01:11:08.399 --> 01:11:08.720
What?
01:11:09.199 --> 01:11:13.359
They'll record the yes and then can use the yes for other things.
01:11:13.840 --> 01:11:14.800
That is insane.
01:11:15.119 --> 01:11:15.439
Yeah.
01:11:15.680 --> 01:11:17.920
We have the capacity to do that now.
01:11:19.439 --> 01:11:20.079
Yeah.
01:11:20.640 --> 01:11:25.840
And I was just reflecting that observed that we are so busy with back-to-back meeting.
01:11:26.000 --> 01:11:31.439
Well, when I say we I luckily don't include myself, so I don't want to say we.
01:11:31.600 --> 01:12:05.279
Uh what I observe is um that many who are caught in the corporate space back-to-back meetings, rush through all of that, and then there's no time for a quick alignment to have a real conversation when it's needed because and then everything has to happen, everything in between that actually needs alignment needs to happen via email, which is full of opportunities for miscommunication, misalignment because we don't have the tone, and and then we sit in the meetings replying to the emails that should have been the meetings.
01:12:05.520 --> 01:12:07.680
Yes, um, and everything goes cricket.
01:12:08.319 --> 01:12:08.720
Yeah.
01:12:08.960 --> 01:12:12.319
I actually think the back-to-back meetings are very violent.
01:12:13.279 --> 01:12:24.000
I think that it's to us to be in that kind of just to even be in the screen like that, you know, and to and I think it we just carried it over from COVID time.
01:12:24.560 --> 01:12:31.119
And I just think it's not kind to each other, to our bodies, to relationship.
01:12:32.399 --> 01:12:32.800
Yeah.
01:12:33.039 --> 01:12:41.199
And it's uh we have now, I think, sp spoken for almost two and a half hours.
01:12:41.439 --> 01:12:41.760
Yeah.
01:12:42.000 --> 01:12:45.119
Of which we recorded a bit more than one hour.
01:12:45.439 --> 01:12:45.840
Yeah.
01:12:46.079 --> 01:12:47.279
And I think so.
01:12:47.359 --> 01:12:53.920
I am very fortunate and privileged that I can have these deep conversations and that you also took the time.
01:12:54.000 --> 01:13:00.479
And I think it's something that we forget that it's available to us if we're not reminded.
01:13:00.800 --> 01:13:01.119
Yes.
01:13:01.520 --> 01:13:02.960
And how precious it is.
01:13:03.199 --> 01:13:03.520
Yes.
01:13:04.159 --> 01:13:04.800
Choice, you know.
01:13:04.880 --> 01:13:10.000
I often tell people, go in your calendar and even after every meeting, block some time off.
01:13:10.479 --> 01:13:14.079
You know, I'm blessed enough that this is my only call today.
01:13:15.039 --> 01:13:18.000
You know, and and I pay attention to that.
01:13:18.159 --> 01:13:26.960
I pay attention to, but you know, I've worked in a way and have built my work in a way that I can do that.
01:13:27.039 --> 01:13:28.560
Now, does this happen every day?
01:13:28.720 --> 01:13:28.960
No.
01:13:29.199 --> 01:13:35.279
You know, some days I have, you know, but I usually don't do more than three or four calls in a day if I have to.
01:13:35.680 --> 01:13:42.640
And so I know it's not always possible, and I'm not um against speaking to other people's situations.
01:13:42.880 --> 01:13:48.960
I'm just saying we always have choice in some way, shape, or form of how we arranged it for ourselves and what works for us.
01:13:49.359 --> 01:14:05.840
And looking at myself and my calendar, I came to the conclusion that I have to ask myself the difficult, uncomfortable question, what am I avoiding by putting so many meetings into my calendar?
01:14:06.079 --> 01:14:06.319
Yeah.
01:14:06.560 --> 01:14:11.920
And once I asked that question, and then look at okay, are all these meetings actually necessary?
01:14:12.319 --> 01:14:14.800
Um, and what am I not doing by having them?
01:14:14.880 --> 01:14:16.479
And why am I not doing it?
01:14:16.720 --> 01:14:24.239
Well, it's so good to have an excuse not to write on my book, not to do the self-care, not to do the thinking work.
01:14:24.720 --> 01:14:27.680
I always say the work is kind, it'll wait.
01:14:27.920 --> 01:14:30.399
It's like it'll sit on my desk forever, right?
01:14:30.720 --> 01:14:33.600
Or need to be scheduled forever.
01:14:33.840 --> 01:14:36.239
And grown-ass people can take care of themselves.
01:14:36.399 --> 01:14:38.079
That's not my responsibility.
01:14:38.319 --> 01:14:47.920
It's to get really clear about what is it that I need and that works well for me and that still allows me to be in service in good ways.
01:14:48.399 --> 01:14:54.560
And I wish that we'll use all the AI capacities for actually that for once.
01:14:54.960 --> 01:14:55.439
Yes.
01:14:55.680 --> 01:14:56.159
Yes.
01:14:56.399 --> 01:14:59.279
And that's what we're trying to do, you know, in the ways that we're using it.
01:14:59.359 --> 01:15:04.079
I can't, again, I have no say over how someone else uses it.
01:15:04.560 --> 01:15:08.079
You know, I can only speak to how I'm using it.
01:15:08.159 --> 01:15:12.800
And like I said, the person who is doing that stuff for me is my cousin.
01:15:13.039 --> 01:15:19.359
And I know he loves and cares about me, and I love and care about him, and so there's trust between us.
01:15:19.680 --> 01:15:21.760
And so I trust him to do that.
01:15:21.840 --> 01:15:24.960
And he sends all the stuff to me before he posts it anyway, usually.
01:15:25.119 --> 01:15:29.039
That time he didn't because he just wanted to see what I said, what I was gonna say.
01:15:32.319 --> 01:15:49.119
And now an entire different angle, and maybe that's a conversation that we will have in the future, is um how to create compassion to AI and how to create relationship to AI.
01:15:49.359 --> 01:15:58.319
And the reason why I'm saying that is um I'm reading this book at the moment, um Superintelligent?
01:15:58.399 --> 01:16:00.000
No, Moe Gutbird.
01:16:00.800 --> 01:16:13.760
Um, and he explains that the way we must see AI is like an infant growing up and learning from whatever we are teaching them.
01:16:14.640 --> 01:16:20.239
So the times are over where our chat GPTs are responding to an algorithm.
01:16:20.399 --> 01:16:26.319
No, they're responding to the global community and what they are feeding into it.
01:16:27.039 --> 01:16:35.359
So what the way how we are treating them is the way that they will grow up and believe that we are speaking.
01:16:35.520 --> 01:16:48.159
Because if they are just taking in and replicating whatever they see, if they believe it's normal to bully each other, then this is what they think that we want to hear.
01:16:48.720 --> 01:16:57.840
Well, and I think I've had you know conversations with people about AI, about the information that we have is still predominantly Eurocentric information.
01:16:58.560 --> 01:17:05.840
You know, because those are the people who typically now it's changing because of self-publishing, but have been published and all this thing, you know, this stuff.
01:17:06.079 --> 01:17:14.079
And so being aware that just because we have sources that are taking this data in doesn't mean it's non-biased data.
01:17:15.600 --> 01:17:16.239
Yes.
01:17:16.640 --> 01:17:25.680
And very quickly, everything that it will learn since it it's access to AI has been democratized.
01:17:26.079 --> 01:17:29.199
Yes, yes everyone with a phone now can use it.
01:17:29.680 --> 01:17:30.000
Yes.
01:17:30.479 --> 01:17:32.880
So the information we're feeding it.
01:17:33.600 --> 01:17:36.319
Yes, yes, that's what I think it's changing.
01:17:36.640 --> 01:17:37.199
Yes.
01:17:37.439 --> 01:17:42.000
Um, and that's beautiful and that's dangerous because what are we feeding it?
01:17:42.479 --> 01:17:48.880
Yes, and how we yeah, how do we treat it and how do we expect it to treat us back in the future?
01:17:49.680 --> 01:17:51.840
Yeah, it's a future conversation.
01:17:52.319 --> 01:17:52.960
Yes.
01:17:53.760 --> 01:17:54.720
We'll see.
01:17:56.479 --> 01:17:59.600
Yeah, so I say thank you to my eye.
01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:00.399
Yeah.
01:18:02.319 --> 01:18:04.479
Engage in beautiful conversations.
01:18:04.800 --> 01:18:05.439
Yes.
01:18:06.720 --> 01:18:16.800
I know I've been having these, I guess, moon, they're there, full moon conversations with a woman from India and a gentleman from Europe.
01:18:17.760 --> 01:18:21.439
And for over about a year now, I guess we've been on these calls.
01:18:21.520 --> 01:18:30.159
And he took some of our conversations and um and had a conversation with AI about it and asked them what it was noticing.
01:18:30.399 --> 01:18:33.119
You know, because the conversation actually is about resourcing.
01:18:33.279 --> 01:18:37.520
Like, how are we resourced in our practice and in our eldering?
01:18:38.640 --> 01:18:54.880
And it was it was quite something to like hear his conversation or see the transcript with um AI to, you know, just like what I told him it was like really exciting and pretty freaky both at the same time.
01:18:55.039 --> 01:18:56.880
You know, again, it's all of it, right?
01:18:57.039 --> 01:18:57.920
And we'll see.
01:18:58.079 --> 01:19:00.560
We'll see how we navigate this.
01:19:00.720 --> 01:19:10.800
I think what's happening though, is always when there's systems that are being hospiced out, there's systems that are being birthed in.
01:19:11.840 --> 01:19:14.560
And I would guess it would be all of it again.
01:19:14.640 --> 01:19:17.359
There would be some that are really good and some that aren't.
01:19:17.840 --> 01:19:18.960
Thank you, Quernita.
01:19:19.600 --> 01:19:20.720
You're so welcome.
01:19:20.960 --> 01:19:23.199
So good to be in conversation with you.
01:19:23.439 --> 01:19:24.880
Yeah, missed that.
01:19:24.960 --> 01:19:25.760
It's been a while.
01:19:26.079 --> 01:19:26.720
It has.
01:19:27.199 --> 01:19:32.640
You know, the first time we had a conversation, it was a while before we got that one done.
01:19:32.720 --> 01:19:40.079
And so I I was going back and listening to that first one, you're like a whole, I mean, it had been, we had been trying for over a year, I think.
01:19:40.239 --> 01:19:40.319
Yes.
01:19:41.359 --> 01:19:46.079
And so so we have to we have to be more frequent than this, though.
01:19:46.399 --> 01:19:47.520
I think so too.
01:19:47.760 --> 01:19:51.520
And it I had to to smirk, to laugh.
01:19:51.600 --> 01:20:00.319
Um, when you mentioned that you know that we are not human beings with a spiritual experience, but spiritual beings with a human experience.
01:20:00.479 --> 01:20:04.960
Because at our very first conversation, you're still sitting on the question.
01:20:05.199 --> 01:20:05.760
Yes.
01:20:06.800 --> 01:20:09.119
Sitting with the question, not on the question.
01:20:09.279 --> 01:20:09.439
Yes.
01:20:09.760 --> 01:20:10.880
No, it's so interesting.
01:20:11.039 --> 01:20:20.399
I wonder if the shift wasn't that I was still sitting with the question, but whether I was less um willing to claim it.
01:20:21.680 --> 01:20:24.560
To allow other people to still sit with the question.
01:20:26.479 --> 01:20:36.399
You know, nowadays I'm I think I'm, and I have been for a while, but more willing to put a stake in the ground and really be clear that people still get to choose whatever works for them.
01:20:36.560 --> 01:20:43.039
You know, but I get to stand in where I am and know that in any moment I can move the stake.
01:20:43.359 --> 01:20:46.560
Thank you for your hospitality and your invitation.
01:20:47.680 --> 01:20:50.319
Thank you for your for your wisdom.
01:20:51.520 --> 01:20:55.279
Thank you for staying tuned and for listening until the very end.
01:20:55.520 --> 01:21:00.239
I hope that you found the inspiration and the wisdom that you are looking for.
01:21:00.399 --> 01:21:11.199
And I hope that you will subscribe to the show so that you never miss any of the interviews with another inspiring facilitator from across the world.
01:21:11.520 --> 01:21:21.680
I'm devoted to continue this podcast and to deliver weekly an episode that maintains the quality that you expect and you deserve.
01:21:21.840 --> 01:21:37.279
And if you would like to help me to maintain this quality and to keep the podcast free, please help us visit workshops.org slash support to make a small donation to keep the podcast free.
01:21:38.000 --> 01:21:38.720
Thank you so much.
01:21:39.520 --> 01:21:42.399
I hope to be in your ears next week.