306 - Creating Psychological Safety in Psychedelic Work with Kacey Cardin

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What does it take to make workshops work?
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And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results?
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My name is Ma'am Hapners, and with the Workshops Work Podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work.
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Today with me on the show is Casey Cardinal.
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And we speak about a different kind of facilitation that I usually speak about with my guests.
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We speak about facilitating with substances, with psychedelics and with plant medicine, and come to the conclusion that what we do in order to create a safe space and guide participants would journey to find their inner wisdom is very similar.
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No matter what kind of facilitation we do.
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So stay tuned.
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And don't forget to scroll down to the show notes to find more information, more links, and to subscribe to the show if you like it.
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Thank you for listening.
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Casey, welcome to the show.
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Thank you.
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Happy to be here.
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Thanks for having me.
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Thank you for joining me.
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And I'm very excited about this episode because it's slightly different from what I usually do.
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And it's a topic that is very close to my heart.
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Facilitation with psychedelics and plant medicine.
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And yeah, cannot wait to learn from you.
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And we always start at the beginning.
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When did you start calling yourself a facilitator?
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And actually, do you?
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I do.
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Such a good question.
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I honestly didn't really think of myself as a facilitator until I started working in the psychedelic and plane medicine work.
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I worked as a coach for many years before that.
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And I had done coaching and training.
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And I think looking back, I was also facilitating, you know, I was facilitating workshops and things, but I didn't really call it that.
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And then when I entered a facilitator training for the psychedelic work, it was a bit of a mindset shift.
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So it's been about, it's been about five years now.
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Nice.
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And what was a mindset shift about?
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There's one experience in particular from early in that training that really shifted it for me when I recognized that as a facilitator, I needed to have a much lighter touch.
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You know, in coaching, I think I'm aware that there needs to be sometimes less of me in the space.
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You know, I don't want to put my stories and my projections into the client's space.
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So I'm mindful of that.
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But in facilitation, especially in the psychedelic and plant work, it's I need to be even more present to that, to really leaning back with my presence, with my questions, you know, with any curiosity I have, and certainly with any um sort of agenda that might come up, you know, for me as a human.
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I think that's important in any facilitation setting, but in in this work, it can be especially delicate.
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So I learned that early on, and that really shifted.
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Okay, coaching, you know, when I'm in coaching mode sometimes, it's I'm really going in with somebody, I'm really challenging them in a way.
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And in the psychedelic space, I don't want to be so challenging.
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I'm not trying to kick in the front door of their perceptions and their belief systems, you know, I'm wanting to move at a much slower, gentler pace.
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Because there's more risk them going into a direction that might be more frightening than healing.
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People are so sensitive and so open.
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Yeah, yeah, in that space.
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And something that just came to my mind right now, and I hope that we'll touch upon that either now at a later stage, it might be too early actually for that, is that in the coaching space, or if we think of corporate workshops, talking workshops, is we hear and verbalize or at least visualize the process that the group goes through and the individuals.
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Whereas in the psychedelic and plant medicine work you do, most of it is very personal and not verbalized.
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That's true.
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There's a lot of energetic work that can happen.
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And a lot when people are in a journey space sometimes, the people that I am facilitating have an eye mask on and their eyes closed and they're quiet for hours.
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And so I may be facilitating, but really I'm co-facilitating with the plants and the psychedelics.
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You know, I always have that co-facilitator in the space.
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So that also shifts a lot about how I'm going to show up or when I'm gonna lean in and lean, lean back.
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Yeah.
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And I think the the aspect of psychological safety plays a very different role in the the work you have to be up to do upfront to really set up everyone to what are the shared agreements, how do we show up and what will happen to set expectations maybe as well.
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Yes.
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The you know, I always tell people safety is my top priority in the work that comes first.
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And you know, sometimes to the extent, of course, we will probably touch on this too later, but with safety being so important, sometimes there are people who want to come in for this sort of work who it's you know, it's not going to be the right fit.
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And there may still be work we can do together, and I may still facilitate a process with them, but it may not include ingesting anything.
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Very interesting.
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And maybe we start uh take a step back because I don't know whether everyone in the audience is familiar with what are psychedelics, what are plants, what the heck are they actually talking about?
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Yes.
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So when I am talking about psychedelics and plant medicines, often I am referring to some of I think what we think is some of the classics like psilocybin, LSD, MDMA, MDA, and also some sacred shamanic and indigenous plants like ayahuasca and Wachuma.
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And then more recently, medicines like ketamine that are being used in the psychedelic therapeutic context as well.
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Yeah, and then depending on the context, on the country, some of them are legal, some of them are illegal, and some of them are only legal in the therapeutic work, an accompanied work.
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And I think that's maybe important here as a disclaimer.
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We are not talking about party drugs.
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Absolutely.
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I mean, certainly these things could be used at a party and could be reused recreationally, and I have absolutely zero judgment on that.
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I have found personally for myself that that is not always uh it's not always been enjoyable for me used in that context.
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Every now and then I say, you know, I've had situations where the plants themselves had said, no, no, no, that's not not for you.
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This is not how you work with me.
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Yes, you know.
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So yeah, sometimes people talk about set and setting often, your mindset as you go into this work and the setting that you're in, and it makes a big difference.
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You could work with the same substance in two different settings and have a wildly different experience and have wildly different takeaways.
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So for me, when I am facilitating this work, I'm always holding it in more of a ceremonial or a therapeutic setting.
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Yeah, because it does touch our unconscious mind.
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So everything that we usually don't have access to.
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Absolutely.
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That's one of the first things that I say when I sit down with people in the circle is that this work is going to make the unconscious conscious.
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It's going to bring things to the surface.
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In my experience, it usually doesn't bring things to the surface that we aren't ready on some level to see or to be with or to process, but it can be very confronting, you know, and it can be very unsettling sometimes.
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So I have not enjoyed, you know, using things in a recreational context or in big crowds, because sometimes it does bring things up that that have me just want to go sit, you know, in an introspective space and be with myself or or cry or you know, laugh hysterically and and process things that for me feel uh very intimate, you know, very and at the same time, sometimes, as you said, if we are not ready to process, then just nothing happens.
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I've experienced in the work that I did with uh sacred plants that one time there was just nothing.
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Just sitting there totally conscious of everything that was happening, and then processing the fact of my expectations and unmet expectations and impatience, which is important work to do.
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Right, an important lesson to learn, but not what one might expect.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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So I would be curious before diving deeper into the facilitative work you do in the division of tasks between you and the medicine and maybe the music and everything else that you bring into the space.
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What are, according to you, the biggest misconceptions?
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Misconceptions in this work.
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Well, certainly there's the safety aspect, you know.
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I think we're all familiar with just say no.
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You know, I certainly grew up in a in a in the Dare era where officers were coming to school to tell us about the dangers of drugs and how it was gonna fry your brain, like the scrambled eggs and the commercial and that sort of thing, you know.
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Um, so I really grew up even high school and even in college, I was very much like, oh no, no, no, that's for bad people.
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You know, just a lot of a lot of judgment and um a little like moral superiority around substances of any sort, any sort of consciousness altering substance, you know, I had a little, a little fear and judgment around.
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And I think that that's fairly common, especially generationally.
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So that's one.
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And the other, of course, is sort of on the maybe on the opposite side of that is this feeling like these things are gonna be our saviors and they are gonna be a quick fix.
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You know, I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna take this pill, I'm gonna sit in a ceremony, and I'll be healed.
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My work is done, I will be enlightened, you know, enlightenment in a day.
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I think there are absolutely moments of velocity and enlightenment that occur in this work, but maybe there's also the misconception of what it looks like to sustain that.
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You know, I think I think often people maybe underestimate what integration actually looks like and how much support can be needed before and after an experience to get the level of transformation that they might want.
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And when you speak of integration, what do you mean by that?
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Great question.
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Integration can can mean and can look like different things for different people, and everybody's process, of course, is going to be unique.
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The first thing that I think of when I say the word integration is well, the somatic work to hold it in the body, but also being able to talk through it with somebody who has been there and who is trained or well-versed in being able to talk through, investigate, explore, discern some of the learnings from these, you know, these experiences and from these medicines, and to look at what are the changes that you are asking of yourself, you know, what are the changes that your depth is asking of you to come into deeper authenticity and connection with yourself.
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So for me, that often looks like integration coaching work with people, you know, or sometimes I'll send people, I'll refer people out to work with a somatic therapist, perhaps, you know, because this work also is very often waking us back up to the mind-body connection in a way that we've lost in our, especially in our fast-paced society.
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We get, you know, I get so in my mind in the day-to-day.
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I think a lot of us do.
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And so having an experience that opens us up to that heart connection or that spirit connection again.
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And then how do we integrate that back into our day-to-day lives?
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And that's often going to require some deep conversations and some powerful questions, and then also some practices.
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You know, it's like building new habits.
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So I often will suggest, of course, that people do things like journal, you know, in the days after their experience.
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We have a few days where the window of neuroplasticity is very available.
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So to journal, to be mindful, to take life a little more slowly for a little while and start to build trust with that slowness.
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Um, something that was said recently.
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I think my partner actually said it.
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I'm not going to claim that it the line came from me, but he said, let's see what it feels like to move at the pace of presence.
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Oh, I love that.
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Yeah, I loved that so much.
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And so for me, that statement alone can be what integration means.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, because it's we wake up with this enlightenment, if we're lucky, insights that our unconscious has told us or brought to us.
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And then it's so easy to forget about that or to lose the trust, the confidence, or not seeing how to actually implement it.
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And then before we know it, we're back into our in our old routine.
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Absolutely.
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And the mind, the mind likes the familiar, the brain likes the familiar.
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You know, we we we have our comfort zones, and this work is going to expand the comfort zone and expand consciousness.
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And with any expansion, I think comes a little contraction.
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So also sort of give people the heads up that integration may look like expand, contract, expand, contract, expand, contract.
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And that circle of expansion is gradually going to get larger and larger and larger if you are engaged in proper integration work, if you are allowing yourself to breathe with that and expand over and over again.
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But I think it's it's very predictable and common to get pulled back into our old routine ways of doing things.
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Yeah.
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And it's it's the same thing with any workshop we do.
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We create a more or less artificial environment that is safe to experience something that is out of our day-to-day life.
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And if we don't integrate, if we don't actually process what has happened at this workshop, we go back to work on Monday morning and everything is just the same.
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And this behavioral change just needs time.
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Yes.
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And attention.
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And it starts to, I think it almost starts to feel like it was a dream.
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Yeah.
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You know, there can be that question, okay, wait, I just experienced a completely different reality, a completely different understanding of reality.
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But here I am back at my desk at work on Monday.
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What's real?
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You know, and that's a it's a that's a beautiful, profound moment of getting to recreate reality a little bit and integrate what I saw in this realm and what's available to me here, not necessarily, especially at first, in terms of what we see out in the world in front of us, but who we are on the inside and how we're showing up.
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Yeah, and trusting, and trusting this in our self.
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Being more vulnerable than that vulnerability, I think it takes so much courage.
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The the journey experience, you know, can help us remove all of this armor, all of these defense mechanisms, all of the masks that we've been wearing for years and years.
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Um, a question I asked one of my groups recently was what's it like to be who I am if I'm not trying to be anyone?
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Scary.
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I guess scary question for many because we are so used to wearing all the masks and all the armor, because we have been our vulnerability has been punished over years.
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Absolutely.
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There's pain, there's pain there, there's fear there, and of course, there's also joy and bliss and delight there, you know, and I think the psychedelic experience, especially in community, is such an opportunity for healing around that to find that it is safe again to take that armor off and to be seen and to be felt and to have that deeper connection with each other, you know.
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Yeah, and what I found remarkable is that it's like a shortcut.
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So you can get into similar spaces with your mind and your heart through breathing exercises, through fasting.
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I did 10 days fasts, so 10 days zero calorie fast, and got into places that I didn't believe could just appear like that out of nothing.
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So really sober.
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Yes, meditation.
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Meditation, yes, music.
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Yeah, you know, music can transport using mantra singing I heard that can also get people to very ecstatic places, um, ecstatic dancing.
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Ecstatic dance, shamanic drumming, yeah.
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All these these things that that really can create a psychedelic experience.
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Yeah, you know, some sort of consciousness-altering moment.
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Exactly, which for me shows that it's really an expansion of our mind and we can access opportunities, possibilities, capacities that otherwise are not available to us because we are putting all these masks on.
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And I think especially for when we're working in these highly competitive environments where we're so used to self-discipline and covering our vulnerability, then this shortcut might actually be very helpful.
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Because we don't have to sit and meditate for 10 days.
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Right.
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We can participate in a ceremony.
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Yes.
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And, you know, and eventually, even if, you know, when people start to come in to ingest some of these substances, you know, we say the goal is not that you now need to do this forever and ever.
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It's a process of remembering.
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Yeah.
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It's a process of remembering who I am, what I'm capable of, what is innate within me.
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And yes, some of these psychedelics and these plants might help me remember, but they aren't creating it.
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They aren't putting something in me that wasn't there before.
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You know, they are amplifying, I think, especially amplifying our innate capacity to love.
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Yes.
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And that's where the miracles happen.
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That's where the healing happens.
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Yeah.
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So I would be curious where you learned that, how to facilitate, how to apply, and which medicine substance to use for what occasion?
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So if someone comes to you and you're trained coach, so when someone comes to you with different challenges, issues, questions, how do you know what to do with them?
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That sounds so wrong.
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Um, how to guide them?
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Oh no, how to guide them.
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Yeah, this conversation, this question especially feels vulnerable because I imagine that there are, you know, there are going to be other facilitators who hear and listen to this who might have a completely different experience or a completely different opinion of what medicine should be used when or what supplement should be used when.
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So I'll say there's a, you know, in this work, I think there is always a mix of training and intuition and always a partnership with each, you know, client.
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Each person I'm working with may need something slightly different.
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And there are so many factors that go into it as well in terms of that person's physical health, emotional health, spiritual health.
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You know, there's the factor of um do they have any health conditions that might preclude them from working with certain things?
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Or are they on other medications that might be contraindicated or that might interact in a way that is not going to get us where we want to, you know, where we want to go or not have create the experience that we want.
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I will say for myself, I can certainly speak to that, you know, to my own experience.
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I have found, for example, I really love working with psilocybin for creativity and for presence.
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I have um an ADD diagnosis.
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From about 24 years ago.
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And I was on Adderall for a very long time.
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And I found a few years ago that an LSD microdose actually gave me the same focus and ability to do tedious tasks as the Adderall did, but without some of the overstimulation in my body, um, and without totally taking my appetite away, you know, some things like that, some of the side effects I was experiencing from the Adderall, I found that an LSD microdose was giving me the benefits without some of the drawbacks.
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You know, psilocybin can be great for depression and anxiety, as well as ketamine.
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Ketamine has been shown to work wonders on depression, treatment-resistant depression, or OCD, for example.
00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:11.759
So if I encounter, you know, someone who wants to work on some of those specific things, I'm gonna take my understanding from my own personal experience, but also the research, you know, the research and any previous experiences they've had.
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:17.839
Sometimes people come in and they say, I had a really, you know, horrible experience with psilocybin, for example.
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.599
I've done some ketamine treatments and those worked really well, and here's why.
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:27.759
So we're gonna we're gonna take all of that into account to create, you know, a protocol for each individual.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:36.559
And then also, as you referenced early in this conversation, there are locations where we can work with certain things and where we cannot, you know.
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:41.599
So sometimes it's also gonna depend on where am I physically sitting with this person?
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:48.240
Where in the world are we and what's available here that's legal and ethical for them to work with?
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:48.640
Yeah.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:49.440
You know.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:53.759
Where did you learn to use the plant medicine?
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:55.759
Uh, where did you use the shamanic work?
00:23:55.839 --> 00:24:00.720
And to what extent is the shamanic work different from the psychedelic work?
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:10.160
So thinking about the different blends of training and experience that I bring to the table in these settings.
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:19.680
You know, I have engaged in some shamanic training, I have been able to experience some clinical training.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:29.359
And I think very important in the psychedelic and the plant work is that I also come from personal experience with the medicines and the substances.
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:44.240
You know, and this is a big conversation in this facilitation world right now, is that there are there are clinical trainings happening with people who've never had a psychedelic experience, you know?
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:53.519
And as we look at how the landscape might shift over the years to come, you know, with with different legalization conversations on the table.
00:24:53.599 --> 00:25:08.640
And I don't necessarily want to go too far into this, but there's always a conversation around um, you know, how do we find the balance between wanting people to be trained and to know how to create safe spaces, you know, medically and psychologically.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:18.480
But we also, I mean, I know for me, I want to work with somebody who has traveled those realms and has done deep work with the medicine.
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:44.799
You know, I want to work with somebody who's had dozens of experiences and has encountered their own turbulent and challenging journeys and who has, you know, crawled through the depths of their own soul, not just they've read some studies and read a textbook on it, you know, and maybe they have medical training, but they haven't experienced their own sort of shamanic initiations, so to speak, you know.
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:47.039
Yeah, this resonates so much.
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:56.480
I'm thinking of a guest, and I cite her so often, Quinida Weberson, who said you cannot guide people to places where you haven't been yourself.
00:25:56.960 --> 00:25:57.839
Absolutely.
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:17.839
And I think especially with the work that you're doing and that we talk about is this given that no experience is alike, and you might have a group of individuals you work with who where every individual experience is different.
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:25.599
How to hold space for that if you don't know what it might actually be happening for them.
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:41.519
And also I think there's another part when I speak about the work of a facilitator, and I find it very interesting that we speak about facilitators and have very different concepts, actually in what context we're facilitating.
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:50.960
So when I facilitate these uh talk shops, we talk, talk maybe we draw, but it's um usually very corporate.
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:56.799
And still I think to be a good facilitator, we have to be have done the inner work.
00:26:57.119 --> 00:26:57.759
Absolutely.
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:04.799
So what are facing our demons, our triggers, where are we coming from so that we can really hold space for the group?
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:11.680
And I imagine that is no, I know for sure that this is even more important for the facilitation work you do.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:12.559
Absolutely.
00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:14.319
Energy begets energy.
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:24.079
And whatever we bring into the space in our being as facilitators, I think it shows up in some way in the group, in the participants, you know.
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:42.640
So being being mindful, I think it's it's so important to do some sort of mental and or energetic clearing for me as a facilitator before I walk into a space or before I turn on the Zoom, you know, if I'm facilitating just a you know a corporate workshop, for example.
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:47.200
You know, so I also do work that doesn't involve, you know, the psychedelics and the plants.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:53.759
Although I tell people, even if you didn't ingest it, you may now be working with it through me because it's alive in me.
00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:57.279
You know, I am bringing that work into every space that I walk into.
00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:09.039
I am also experiencing the more I do of it, really recognizing how important it is not just to be mindful of what I'm bringing into the space, but who else am I bringing in on my support team?
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:21.359
You know, and recognizing whatever breakthroughs that any of us might be up to in our own life, we are now bringing it that into the space for our participants as well.
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:24.880
Everybody, you know, it's like the hall of mirrors, of course.
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:35.359
Yeah, and this the amplification of all of that is our insecurities will spark insecurity in the participants.
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:47.920
And I can imagine that the so from in my experience in the talk uh facilitation is um I need to trust the process so that the group can trust the process.
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:52.000
Can you walk me through your process work?
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:58.319
So, how do you create the safe space so that everyone can really focus on their inner work?
00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:05.279
And what is the role of the facilitators, you, the support team?
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:06.000
Yeah.
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:40.240
Yes, I think the process begins for me before I ever even meet a person who might be coming in, you know, because I also recognize for myself that whatever I've been processing as a person, every time I have my own personal breakthrough, or every time I maybe connect more deeply with a certain aspect of myself, or I clear something from my own path, I release something, I let something go, there will be a potential participant who shows up who wants to work on that exact thing.
00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:41.920
It never fails.
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.079
And that shows up in my coaching practice as well.
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:47.839
You know, that my clients will often be working through something.
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:53.279
The content may be a little bit different, but contextually, like, oh, okay, I see you.
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:53.920
I see you.
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:55.359
I can walk with you in this.
00:29:55.519 --> 00:29:58.880
And of course, I'm not gonna tell them what to do or give them advice.
00:29:59.039 --> 00:29:59.920
That's not my job.
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:09.440
But but I will ask some questions that come from the new access I have to my own depth as the result of the work I've done to clear something.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:10.640
You know?
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:18.319
So I find that that makes a difference with who starts to show up in my field and who starts to get curious about this work.
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:20.799
One quick question, just to clarify.
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:26.079
I hear you using the word something you have cleared from your past.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:30.559
Would you use it as a synonym to healing?
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:32.240
Or what is the difference?
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:33.680
Great question.
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:37.039
I think yes, there's there's healing.
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:48.880
And to even speak a little more to what that means to me, I am clearing some of the emotional ties to a particular event.
00:30:50.319 --> 00:31:01.279
You know, I can acknowledge that this event happened, but when I think about it, it no longer has the level of emotional impact that it used to, you know, that it once did.
00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:09.839
And maybe it also no longer informs how I interact with others or how I see the world or how I see myself.
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:19.680
So my vision is clear, you know, from yeah, from the through from the lens that that experience used to put in front of me.
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:22.960
I've actually cleared that and I can see it for what it is.
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:24.319
That makes sense.
00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:29.039
And is this then different from healing?
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:31.839
Because it's for me, healing is almost similar.
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:35.680
It's a wound that no longer itches and hurts.
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:44.559
I think you know, if healing is returning to wholeness, that analogy is great.
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:47.839
Perhaps there was a wound, there was a cut that was pretty deep.
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:51.519
And as I've healed it, I have remembered my own wholeness.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:32:01.680
That cut no longer stings, you know, that no longer feels like a bruise when that information touches me again, you know, or when I touch that information.
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:02.480
Yeah.
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:03.519
Thank you.
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:04.160
Yeah.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:13.759
And I think sometimes as a facilitator, it can be beautiful when someone comes in with some wounds that maybe I'm still feeling a little bit in myself.
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:27.680
I have, I certainly have a deep level of empathy, but there's a fine line, I think, for me in having empathy for it versus still being so wounded in that spot myself that I can't take a step back.
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:33.119
And then you would project or it would trigger you.
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:33.839
Mm-hmm.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:34.559
Mm-hmm.
00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:36.240
And then you cannot hold space.
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:39.759
I have certainly gotten triggered in the space when facilitating.
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:50.079
You know, I've certainly had moments where I need to step out or bring in a co-facilitator or bring in some other support so that I can go clear myself in the moment.
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:51.359
Yeah, that happens.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:58.160
And I think that is part of responsible facilitation in any setting, you know, to awareness.
00:32:58.640 --> 00:32:59.599
Yeah, that awareness.
00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:12.400
And I think, you know, if it's not in the psychedelic space, if we're just working, let's say, in a in a talking workshop, there might be times when I would want to name it and oh, oh, I notice I've just gotten triggered by this thing.
00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:14.960
Let's, you know, let's maybe we shift this together.
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:30.160
And sometimes there can be some amazing work in partnering in a vulnerable way like that with a participant, versus in the psychedelic space, often I really want to take myself and take my stuff out of the space while still being in relationship with that person.
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:36.079
You know, the relational work in psychedelic implant work is, I think, vital.
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:43.039
You know, so finding, and this is sometimes for me just an intuitive process in the moment.
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:47.200
What might this person need to hear about what's really going on for me right now?
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:57.519
Or how can I speak to it in an honest way without projecting, you know, without putting something in their space that that may just be more about me and my own process.
00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.640
I don't want it to be about my own healing process with it.
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.440
You know, I can take that away and get some support on that later.
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:09.920
But in the moment, being able to connect, being able to understand and empathize can be exactly what's needed.
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:10.559
Yeah.
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:11.920
Yeah, beautiful.
00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:12.480
Okay.
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:14.400
So you're doing this prep.
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:16.000
So before they even return.
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:18.159
I was like, where did this begin?
00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:18.480
Yes.
00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:19.519
So prep work.
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:23.039
So prepping myself, expecting, you know, some of these things come in.
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:25.119
The intake process is really important.
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:46.880
The intake process, you know, I have a form that people fill out that um, and I let them know I need them to disclose very honestly and very thoroughly their mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual health history, their current experience of those things, you know, what's their support system like before and after their experience.
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:56.559
I want to make sure that people aren't just leaving and going back into, you know, a toxic setting or going to be alone and feeling isolated after a big experience.
00:34:56.719 --> 00:35:11.360
I want to make sure that they have a good system set up, you know, and in some cases, I want to know that somebody has a therapist on hand, that they they have somebody that who they are regularly working with who knows them and who can track the process with them.
00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:21.679
Medications, you know, we mentioned that there are in this work, there certainly there are medications that can, you know, in some cases just keep a person from even feeling the experience.
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:26.559
But in some cases could be quite risky, you know, or even fatal.
00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:30.480
So that sort of stuff is not something to play with, you know.
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:33.280
So that metal like medical intake form is important.
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:39.039
Um, and confidentiality, that's huge in this work in both ways.
00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:53.280
You know, I want to be very mindful of what's being shared out in the world about the work I do, and the people who come into work with me want to know that their process and their identity is safe.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:53.840
Yeah.
00:35:54.079 --> 00:36:02.320
You know, be safely held, you know, and and and we work with uh, you know, we work with people who they're known out in the world, you know, they have a big impact.
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:05.519
They are leaders, they are public figures out in the world.
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:18.559
And it's very important to them that this be really sacred, you know, that their personal process gets to be held as sacred and they get to do this work with the same privacy and protection as anyone else.
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:18.960
Yeah.
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:22.960
So that that I think that goes a long way in creating safety.
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:26.400
And, you know, I obviously I'm out in the world talking about this.
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:28.480
I have a website, I'm talking to you on this podcast.
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:41.519
You know, I'm like, I'm not in hiding about the fact that this is part of the work that I do, but I am also not going out into the world doing big marketing campaigns and saying, come one, come all, because I don't feel that way.
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:45.440
You know, it's very much a referral-based community.
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:56.800
You know, I want to know that somebody coming in to my, you know, to my community, that somebody else in the community can vouch for them and say, yes, I know this person.
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:02.159
This this is a person of integrity, you know, this is a person who is really committed to doing their inner work.
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:07.840
This is a person who is who's kind and compassionate and aware and conscious, you know.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:10.719
So those things also help create some safety.
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:19.519
I always have uh a phone or or preferably a video call with people, you know, just to get a feel for does our energy seem to resonate?
00:37:19.599 --> 00:37:20.719
You know, is there a resonance here?
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:22.159
Am I the right person?
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:23.199
That's the other thing.
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:27.760
I am not the right facilitator for every person, you know, and I don't expect to be.
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:40.480
There are people, maybe energetically or emotionally, it just doesn't quite feel like the right fit for whatever reason, or, you know, their case might be more complex than what I want to take on, you know, very honest with people.
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:48.079
I, yes, I am trained in psychedelic assisted therapy, but I am not a licensed therapist, you know, I don't want to pretend to be.
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:57.199
So sometimes there are people who come in with such severe trauma that I recognize this is probably more than I want to or need to hold.
00:37:57.360 --> 00:37:59.840
And I'm gonna send them to another practitioner.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:09.440
And I think being honest about that with people also creates some safety because they recognize that I really care about their experience and their safety.
00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:13.360
So I'm not just taking in, you know, every single person.
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:14.400
What else?
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:17.599
Talking about intention that's important as well.
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:31.519
You know, the preparation to set an intention, to have a realistic intention, like we referenced earlier, wanting to make sure people aren't coming in with such high expectations that they're either going to be disappointed or feel like they did it wrong.
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:37.519
And that's actually that's a big one that comes up in in ceremony a lot, this feeling like I'm not doing it right.
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:38.639
Am I doing it right?
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:42.320
I'm hearing this person over here have this big experience and I feel nothing.
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:43.679
What's wrong with me?
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:44.800
Yeah, you know.
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:51.039
And often when that does show up, we get to sort of talk about is that a thought that you actually have often.
00:38:51.280 --> 00:38:55.599
Like it's not just what shows up in ceremony is something that's showing up in you.
00:38:55.760 --> 00:39:01.599
Like this is showing you your your loop and your thought process that might be running in the background all the time, you know?
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:02.000
Yeah.
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:08.480
And the moment where you face it and you're confronted with it, then you can clear it.
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:09.119
Yes.
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:16.719
And I I remember this uh experience that I thought, I needed to work harder.
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:34.480
I'm not doing it right, I need to work harder, I'm not allowed to fall asleep, I have to do this, I have to that that, I have to focus until I realize, and this was this inner calling, that no, I can just trust, relax, sit down and trust the process.
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:37.599
And then the most magical things happened.
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:59.360
And I realized that this is definitely a pattern in my in my work in life, that I continuously try to work too hard and then self-sabotage for that instead of just okay, trusting myself, trusting the process, and maybe taking it a little bit slower, trusting that it's okay to just be.
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:01.519
It's okay to exist.
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:08.400
I don't always have to be doing transformation, I don't always have to be doing to create the results.
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:14.880
Sometimes I can actually manifest by envisioning and being and allowing.
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:24.320
This conversation, this is part of what I like to talk about with people in their intake, is a little bit about what do you know about some of your default thoughts and patterns?
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:31.199
You know, what do you already know about what you tell yourself about yourself on a normal basis?
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:40.639
So that if it does come up in the journey experience, we can say, hey, this is one of those things that you're looking to disrupt and to break up, you know?
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:55.280
Or I might even just sometimes mention, sometimes I will also ask people, you know, if things get challenging, what's something you might want to hear or remember to remind you that you're safe or to bring you back to your intention?
00:40:56.639 --> 00:41:00.079
So that's that's an important part of the the preparation process.
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:01.119
Yeah.
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:04.400
And then in the ceremony.
00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:12.960
What is the process of basically I assume that most of the groups are strangers to each other, so they don't know each other.
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:17.039
They come together to do a very vulnerable thing.
00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:29.199
Yes, quite often it is a room full of strangers who yes, become, you know, friends and partners throughout the night, you know, like they're really partnered in the work.
00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:46.480
Um, but yes, a lot of times people come in complete strangers, or sometimes it's even maybe more intimidating when they walk into a room and you've got five people who've done this before in the same space with these same facilitators, and then two people who've never been here.
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:50.559
And they feel a little, a little uncomfortable or a little lost.
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:58.559
I will say, you know, for us, I think we've done a really good job of cultivating a very welcoming, warm space and community.
00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:04.239
And what I notice is often as soon as people do walk in, their system is put at ease.
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:09.440
I can actually see people's nervous system start to settle when they walk in.
00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:10.960
And what are the nuances?
00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:11.840
What do you do?
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:14.400
What do they what happens as they walk in?
00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:17.760
What do they see or smell or what do you Yeah?
00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:24.480
It's a you know, we do our best to create a very warm, welcoming, homey atmosphere.
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:27.280
And also, you know, we have we have candles lit.
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:29.199
We have, we've just burned some sage.
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:34.559
So there's some aromatherapy happening, you know, and there's some energy that's been cleared in the space as well.
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:44.480
And I think also making sure as a facilitator, I'm always checking in on my own nervous system so that I can co-regulate as soon as people walk into the space.
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:49.119
I am a safe, calm, welcoming space myself.
00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:51.280
And that makes a big difference.
00:42:51.440 --> 00:43:00.880
You know, offering whether it's a hug or a handshake or just a nod of welcome, kind of gauging what is this person's comfort level with physical touch.
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:04.880
What is their breathing like when they walk in?
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:22.480
And I've had many beautiful experiences now in our space of seeing somebody walking up to the door, and I can already tell their eyes are wide, their breath is a little shallow, their body is a little tight, you know, or maybe their body language looks pretty protective.
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:36.000
And as soon as I greet them with a breath and a smile and an easiness and a non-attachment in my own space, that's the other thing, you know, recognizing if this person needs to be a little nervous and anxious for a minute, that's okay.
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:37.840
I don't need to fix this for them.
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:39.679
Oh, yeah.
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:43.840
You know, like really letting them have their pace and their process.
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:57.840
And I I typically witness that within, you know, 30 to 60 seconds, I see the shoulders drop a little bit, see a little more space, you know, see the breath, start to calm.
00:43:57.920 --> 00:43:59.760
I see them look around, check out the space.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:02.239
Okay, these look like normal people.
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:07.039
You know, these look like these look like people that I could just hang out with.
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:08.960
All right, this feels better.
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:14.800
And there's music playing, you know, there's some some nice, soft, sweet music playing.
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:16.400
And I think that helps too.
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:20.639
So yeah, all of those things coming together to set a welcome.
00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:23.599
I'm also, I am a person who loves to host things as well.
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:25.280
Like I love to host a good party.
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:27.119
It's one of my favorite activities, you know.
00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:36.960
So when I am hosting, whether it's a retreat or a workshop or whatever it is, whatever physical space I am in, in my mind, I'm like, welcome home.
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:40.079
You know, welcome, welcome home.
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:43.360
Welcome home to yourself, and also welcome to my home.
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:46.400
This is a safe, friendly, warm space.
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:48.159
And I think people feel that.
00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:49.360
Yeah.
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:49.760
Yeah.
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:50.800
Absolutely.
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:59.119
I I also, you know, as things get rolling, you know, I tell people, put your stuff down, make yourself at home, find a spot that calls to you.
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:02.880
So I'm not assigning spots of where people go.
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:06.079
I let people kind of make their way around the space and feel into it.
00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:07.599
I think that helps as well.
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:11.440
Occasionally, you, you know, I'll be able to tell somebody needs to be told.
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:12.960
They they need a little direction.
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:16.320
Being told to pick your spot might be a little overwhelming for them.
00:45:16.480 --> 00:45:19.360
So I might suggest this one over here would be a really nice one.
00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:21.360
This is, you know, this is a favorite spot.
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:22.559
Why don't you try this one out?
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:26.880
And that can be helpful to know, you know, how much support somebody might need.
00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:33.039
And then, you know, when we start to sit down, if people are new, I spend a little one-on-one time with them just to check in.
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:34.480
How are you feeling today?
00:45:34.719 --> 00:45:37.760
Anything that's come up since our last conversation about this.
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:42.000
You know, I let people know we're going to start low and go slow.
00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:48.800
So whatever you ingest, I'm going to start pretty low so that we can see how does your body tolerate it?
00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:50.559
How does your nervous system tolerate it?
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:52.159
How are you doing emotionally?
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:59.519
And you're going to know I'm going to be there with you every step of the way and tell people I can always give you more, but I can't take it out of you once it's in you.
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:02.480
So we're going to start gentle, you know?
00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:09.760
And that already puts people at ease as well to know that I'm not just going to immediately try to shoot them to the moon and say, good luck.
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:10.880
I'll be here when you get back.
00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:15.280
You know, like we're going to do this in partnership with your system.
00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:22.880
We usually then, you know, we'll sit down, we'll have everybody introduce themselves in a way that fulls come, you know, you can just say your first name.
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:26.480
Um, you can share a little bit about how you're feeling in this moment if you want.
00:46:26.559 --> 00:46:27.920
And then we share intentions.
00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:37.280
And I'll always invite, you know, somebody who has been with us before to start, you know, so I'm not asking a new person to go first with the introductions.
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:41.280
And and what we see, and we, like I said, we've built a pretty good community.
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:45.599
So there's almost always somebody in the space who's done it before.
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:47.760
I think that also helps create safety.
00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:49.920
People see, okay, people are coming back.
00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:51.280
People are returning.
00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:54.320
This, this must be, this is a good sign, you know.
00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:55.199
So that helps.
00:46:55.280 --> 00:47:00.559
And usually as people start to share intention, people are in their heart already, you know.
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:06.320
And I'll sometimes I'll do some exercises to kind of help people drop out of the head and into the heart a little bit more.
00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:11.679
We might do a little light movement or breath work to get people into their body.
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:12.000
Yeah.
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:15.840
You know, so they're not just sitting and overthinking, what should my intention be?
00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:17.519
What's the right intention to set?
00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:23.440
You know, sometimes there's that, there's that pressure to get it right, to pick the perfect intention, you know.
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:28.000
So I also always, you know, share these things with people beforehand too.
00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:30.159
There's not a right or wrong intention.
00:47:30.559 --> 00:47:33.039
There's not a there's not a wrong way to do this.
00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:33.519
Yeah.
00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:45.760
So what I hear is really every step of the process is focus on creating safety and calming down the nervous system and helping them to find trust in the in themselves.
00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:46.719
Yes.
00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:47.519
Yes.
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:52.320
And reminding them as well that their journey started when they said yes.
00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:52.880
Yeah.
00:47:53.119 --> 00:48:04.719
You know, and that we say yes, and then life starts to happen and might throw some challenges at us and may throw some things at us that have a say, ooh, maybe it's not the right time.
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:06.159
Maybe I shouldn't do this.
00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:09.440
And quite often, you know, that is the grist for the mill.
00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:17.119
That's the perfect thing that needed to happen so that you could come in and actually work through what that drove up for you, you know.
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:25.199
So certainly the longer that I have been in this work, the more I have truly come to believe in divine timing.
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:26.880
You know, what do you mean by that?
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:48.159
Just really deeply trusting synchronicities, trusting that whether we want to call it, you know, orchestrated by spirit or just energy attracting energy like attracting like, you know, the moments where my my mind or my ego gets attached and wants to push and move faster and faster.
00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:52.639
And I feel that tension, you know, I feel the stress of that.
00:48:52.880 --> 00:49:04.880
And if I just let that go and allow, the perfect thing shows up at the perfect time, or I meet the exact person I need to help me get to that next step, you know.
00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:18.880
So I just I personally keep having these experiences of like, wow, it really feels like there is a greater love orchestrating forward movement, you know, in progress.
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:19.920
Yeah.
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:25.119
Yeah, it feels like the master shows up when the student is ready.
00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:25.679
Alright.
00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:27.199
Absolutely.
00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:31.840
I mean, that's certainly been the case in my facilitation training as well.
00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:44.480
You know, I mean, I this work came into my life after having my own personal experience with psychedelics, having a huge and a profoundly healing experience.
00:49:44.719 --> 00:49:47.920
And for years, just sort of letting it be my own experience.
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:53.840
And then I had a client who also had a really beautiful experience, and we were integrating that.
00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:59.840
And he said, You know, I think you you might ought to look at at facilitating this work.
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:03.599
I think this is a perfect match for you.
00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:28.159
And if he had not said that, if he had not had the experience he'd had, and then been working with me in an executive coaching capacity that turned into some integration work, and then introduced me to the people he introduced me to, who introduced me to the people I needed to know to do some training, you know, like it just every little bread crumb, just trusting every little sign and guidepost along the way.
00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:28.880
Yeah.
00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:31.119
Yeah, it really does.
00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:33.360
The the the teacher appears.
00:50:33.760 --> 00:50:47.199
Yeah, because I yeah, when we so funny with the the they who is they what I was uh told my journey of personal growth, and it started with Vipassana.
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:53.440
Vipassana, I did these 10 days silent meditation retreats, and at some point you get a calling.
00:50:54.239 --> 00:50:57.599
And at some point the calling is so loud that you know you have to go.
00:50:57.679 --> 00:50:58.719
I knew I had to go.
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:06.480
And first someone spoke about it, and then I heard it again, and then suddenly, as I became aware, I saw more and more signs.
00:51:06.719 --> 00:51:14.239
And I don't I don't believe in the powers of the universe, I don't believe in God, I'm very pragmatic and an atheist.
00:51:14.960 --> 00:51:20.880
And still, I think when our mind is open to see these signs, we become aware.
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:21.920
Absolutely.
00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:23.519
Not unsee it anymore.
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:27.280
And with Mama Ayahuasca, it's just the same thing.
00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:30.960
Some becomes a calling, and then she will give you what you need.
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:31.519
Yes.
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:43.360
And I I so appreciate that you bring in that perspective from, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean there's a, you know, a puppet master in the sky guiding all of our choices and decisions.
00:51:43.519 --> 00:51:46.960
You know, I don't, I don't necessarily feel that way.
00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:55.360
But I love that just that understanding that we set an intention or we suddenly notice we have a desire for something.
00:51:55.599 --> 00:52:03.679
And when our attention starts to focus on that desire or that vision, we notice things that we didn't notice before.
00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:05.519
And they do, they show up.
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:14.639
And if we can trust it, we can stay open and pay attention to it and then trust and move toward what we're drawn to, it works.
00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:16.880
Yeah, things start to happen.
00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:18.159
Absolutely.
00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:30.880
And this, yeah, trust building capacity that already happens there, trusting our intuition and the calling and the process part of the work and time is running.
00:52:31.039 --> 00:52:36.559
So um I would be curious because there um there are these hypes going on.
00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:40.000
There was a hype where everyone started to call themselves a coach.
00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:46.480
Now observed that everyone's calling themselves a facilitator.
00:52:47.119 --> 00:53:01.119
And now with psychedelics and plant medicine losing this negative connotation, oh, these are drugs, it's dangerous, but become more normalized, so to speak.
00:53:01.360 --> 00:53:08.079
I also see there are more facilitators, guides, coaches who offer the work.
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:19.679
And I wonder what is the risk of actually um working with someone who doesn't have the training or who didn't do the inner work.
00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:22.639
And how can we read the signposts?
00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:26.239
Yes, this is such a big conversation.
00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:32.800
I I would love to start answering that question by speaking to my own process with it a little bit.
00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:39.840
You know, even when I decided to become a coach, you know, 2011 was the year I first heard about coaching.
00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:42.320
You know, somebody said, Hey, you should talk to my life coach.
00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:44.480
And I said, That sounds like a made-up job.
00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:45.199
I don't think so.
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:46.480
Not interested.
00:53:46.639 --> 00:53:50.079
You know, I was really kind of snooty about it, honestly.
00:53:50.320 --> 00:54:03.199
And it took me another year of watching that person's life get dramatically better while mine sort of stayed the same, dipped a little down into the rock bottom, and then you know came back.
00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:05.679
And I was like, okay, I'll try this coach.
00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:07.599
Let me let me just see what this is all about.
00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:17.519
And then when I realized through working with her that I felt very drawn to it, I second guessed myself for months and months.
00:54:17.679 --> 00:54:20.159
I did all this research on programs.
00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:22.639
I talked to my own therapist about it.
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:32.239
I talked to my friends, I talked to people who knew me well, you know, many of whom, to be honest, were like, You, you are gonna be a coach, you're gonna help people decide what are you sure?
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:34.480
There's a lot of skepticism.
00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:49.599
I was an opera singer and I was very dramatic in my my own life, you know, and it was very interesting to feel that deep calling to something that made absolutely no sense for me.
00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:50.559
None.
00:54:50.719 --> 00:54:54.320
This was not a predictable path for me to go down, you know.
00:54:54.480 --> 00:55:01.360
I was living the wild, dramatic party girl life, and yet I could not turn away from it.
00:55:01.519 --> 00:55:05.280
And I do believe when your calling calls, it is not gonna stop calling.
00:55:05.440 --> 00:55:06.960
Yeah, you know, yeah.
00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:10.159
I used to be an academic and turned into a facilitator.
00:55:12.559 --> 00:55:32.719
And I, you know, I think it's it's interesting to recognize sometimes the calling may come through a particular mechanism that isn't the end-all be-all mechanism, but it is a vehicle that is going to get you closer to making the impact that you know that I'm meant to make, that I want to make, and being who I am truly meant to be.
00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:36.400
It's getting me closer to my authentic self and authentic expression.
00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:43.679
So, all of that to say, when it came to the plants and to the psychedelics of facilitation, I went through a similar process.
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:45.119
I felt very drawn to it.
00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:51.039
I mean, it was like a tug in the center of my chest, you know, my heart and my solar plexus.
00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:55.280
I can feel that energetic, ooh, something's like a magnet here.
00:55:55.840 --> 00:55:59.760
And my mind was like, that sounds crazy, you know.
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:10.480
So for me, I am always interested in working with people who've had a similar experience where they didn't just hear, oh, that sounds like a good way to make money.
00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:14.880
Oh, that sounds cool, that sounds like a trendy new thing to do, you know.
00:56:15.039 --> 00:56:18.239
And I thought, I mean, those of course those thoughts occurred to me too.
00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:20.559
Like, oh, okay, people are making money.
00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:22.159
I could make a living doing this.
00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:22.960
That sounds good.
00:56:23.119 --> 00:56:25.519
I would like to make a good living, you know.
00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:32.559
So I'm not gonna, you know, pretend that that didn't factor into saying, okay, can I actually pull this up?
00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:34.880
Is this actually a real career path?
00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:36.239
You know, is it sustainable?
00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:36.960
Sure.
00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:49.360
But I think seeing that somebody is committed to it as a path, because I think coaching and facilitation, and especially in the psychedelic work, it's not just a vocation.
00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:57.679
You know, it's not just a job, it really requires a different level of holistic commitment.
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:05.840
You know, it does require us to do our inner work in a way that, you know, not everyone has to do for the job that they do.
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:11.519
There are jobs where you can show up, you can clock in, you can do a task and clock out, and then you're done.
00:57:11.599 --> 00:57:13.519
And you don't take that home with you.
00:57:13.840 --> 00:57:16.559
You know, this work is 24-7 for me.
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:18.239
This is all the time.
00:57:18.639 --> 00:57:24.400
So I think knowing what someone's level is of commitment is to their own work is very important.
00:57:24.559 --> 00:57:28.719
If you're talking to a facilitator, if you're talking to a coach, I want to know who is your coach?
00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:30.000
Who do you work with?
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:31.360
Who is your teacher?
00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:34.719
You know, what retreats are you going on every year?
00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:38.000
When was the last time you sat in ceremony?
00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:40.480
And what are some of the breakthroughs that you've had?
00:57:40.719 --> 00:57:49.039
And I don't, you know, I don't have a ton of people ask me those things, but when they do, I am happy to answer those questions, you know.
00:57:49.119 --> 00:58:01.519
And if I talk to somebody who's a little dodgy or who doesn't want to talk about their own process, or if they act like they don't need a process anymore, that's another red flag for me, you know, if somebody's like, oh yeah, I did my work.
00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:04.400
I'm I don't need a coach anymore.
00:58:04.480 --> 00:58:04.960
I'm done.
00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:07.679
And I'm like, oh, but you are holding space for other people.
00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:09.679
That's interesting, you know.
00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:13.199
So I think some of those things are more important questions.
00:58:13.280 --> 00:58:13.440
Yeah.
00:58:13.599 --> 00:58:20.480
That, you know, I will also say though, this work, like we've said, these are unregulated fields.
00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:36.880
There is not a certification that one can get in the psychedelic work at this point in time that suddenly makes everything okay in the eyes of every organization and every state and every government, every governing body, you know.
00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:45.199
So there are some training programs that exist that I think advertise maybe certain things in a way that I don't know.
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:49.360
I think, I think advertising can sometimes be uh misleading.
00:58:49.519 --> 00:58:50.880
Same with coach trainings.
00:58:50.960 --> 00:59:00.320
You know, there are coach trainings like you are suddenly gonna make X amount a month, and and they're really focused on the revenue and the, you know, what's in it for me.
00:59:00.480 --> 00:59:05.199
I think that's the best way to say it because I'm not trying to knock any particular program or training path or anything like that.
00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:12.480
But you I think you can also tell when somebody or when a training is focused on what's in it for me.
00:59:12.639 --> 00:59:13.039
Yeah.
00:59:13.360 --> 00:59:16.239
Versus how am I giving back?
00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:19.679
How do I get to contribute because of what I've learned?
00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:22.960
You know, how am I partnering to make a difference in the world?
00:59:23.119 --> 00:59:24.480
Those are different conversations.
00:59:24.800 --> 00:59:25.440
Yeah.
00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:26.400
Thank you.
00:59:26.639 --> 00:59:28.000
This makes a lot of sense.
00:59:28.159 --> 00:59:48.480
And I and I think this applies, yeah, as you said, as much to the coaching world and to the facilitation world, if we stop participating, being facilitated, being coached, we cannot continue to hold space because uh yeah, we're never done doing the inner work unless we become the Buddha.
00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:49.760
Right.
00:59:50.320 --> 01:00:05.199
And I think coaches, facilitators, you know, plant medicine work, all of it, if people are not in it for the right reasons, if people's heart and soul is not also in the work, you don't last.
01:00:05.440 --> 01:00:05.760
Yeah.
01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:12.000
You know, it's not, I think also sometimes people come see one ceremony, think, oh, this looks cool.
01:00:12.079 --> 01:00:12.800
I want to do this.
01:00:12.960 --> 01:00:25.039
But what they don't see is everything that's happening in the background, the non-glamorous, you know, cleaning and preparation and just the logistical aspects alone, you know?
01:00:25.360 --> 01:00:32.079
So I think checking in, I'm I guess I'm starting to speak to, you know, who is a person listening who might want to get into this work.
01:00:32.159 --> 01:00:52.559
You know, I just tell people like, just know that there's a lot that happens behind the scenes that's not fun, that's not sexy, that you don't get any glory for moving all the mats from the closet to the floor back and forth for hours, you know, and like scrubbing the floors and chopping up the you know, food for prep and and things like that.
01:00:52.639 --> 01:00:54.480
Like cleaning the buckets.
01:00:54.800 --> 01:00:56.880
The yes, cleaning the buckets.
01:00:57.039 --> 01:00:57.599
Thank you.
01:00:57.840 --> 01:00:58.559
Exactly.
01:00:58.800 --> 01:00:59.519
Exactly.
01:00:59.679 --> 01:01:04.880
It and it takes it just takes a lot of love and a lot of humility.
01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:06.079
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:06.320 --> 01:01:08.639
What remains your facilitation challenge?
01:01:09.440 --> 01:01:10.800
A great question.
01:01:11.199 --> 01:01:14.159
Oh, there are a couple that come to mind for me.
01:01:14.400 --> 01:01:21.599
The one that I am the most present to and constantly working on, and I've been working on it for years, shows up more in integration.
01:01:21.760 --> 01:01:34.639
And it is how I phrase things and offer feedback without it coming from needing to fix and not want to fix, you know, even if it's just somebody's story.
01:01:34.719 --> 01:01:40.000
Like I don't I don't hold judgment on the people in front of me, and it's not based on what I think they should do.
01:01:40.239 --> 01:01:53.039
But if I know that they're trying to break up a particular pattern or story and then I hear them in it, constantly working on how do I phrase this in a way that is more about connecting than correcting?
01:01:53.199 --> 01:02:00.320
You know, how do I connect them to the future they want to create instead of correcting the past and the few the present that they're in?
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:00.800
Yeah.
01:02:01.039 --> 01:02:13.840
And I just, you know, I grew up in an environment that was pretty critical, you know, so so growth and lessons were always phrased through the lens of here's how you're messing it up, here's how you are not doing it right.
01:02:14.320 --> 01:02:18.480
And so it's just that is such a habit for me in my own speaking.
01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:20.880
Thank you for mentioning that.
01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:25.039
And it reminds me of what you said earlier.
01:02:25.360 --> 01:02:28.639
I stored it in my memory as a kind of safety word.
01:02:28.960 --> 01:02:35.679
So when you have the intake, what are the phrases or the words that you can remind your participants of?
01:02:37.199 --> 01:02:42.400
And I think that's a beautiful way to actually have this agreement beforehand.
01:02:42.559 --> 01:02:47.679
Okay, if you're aware of your patterns, what can I say that makes it safe for you to receive it?
01:02:47.920 --> 01:02:54.320
Yeah, really trusting, trusting each person's own wisdom.
01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:54.800
Yeah.
01:02:55.199 --> 01:03:15.360
You know, that I don't always have to have the most profound question or the perfect reflection or the most enlightened thing to say, you know, like really trying because constantly getting our own ego out of the space and trusting I could say one word or maybe ask a question that sounds so simple.
01:03:15.519 --> 01:03:24.639
I think, of course, in coaching, it's always helpful to remember that there's there are no stupid questions, you know, that I could ask a question that my ego is like, oh, that's dumb.
01:03:24.960 --> 01:03:31.679
But for that person's wisdom, it's the simplest, easiest thing to let them speak to the the profound answer.
01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:32.239
Yeah.
01:03:32.480 --> 01:03:32.960
Yeah.
01:03:33.280 --> 01:03:45.840
And listening to you, it really sounds as if that's the facilitation work you do is kind of the pure form of the facilitation we do for corporate teams and workshops because it's all about this.
01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:48.639
We have to step out, it's not about us, it's about them.
01:03:48.719 --> 01:03:50.559
And we trust their inner wisdom.
01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:53.760
And they have to do the work and the process.
01:03:54.000 --> 01:04:01.519
And then yeah, in corporate workshops, there's all these words and all that stuff around it, but it really boils down to just that.
01:04:02.400 --> 01:04:11.519
Um learning, I think the the plants and the psychedelics have taught me a lot about what it actually means to hold space.
01:04:12.559 --> 01:04:15.840
Can I hold the space without inserting myself into the space?
01:04:16.239 --> 01:04:25.280
You know, that's been that's been a deep learning because I I have always felt the responsibility that this is to hold this space.
01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:30.800
I have always had a lot of reverence for the level of responsibility that I have said yes to.
01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:42.639
And in the beginning, that responsibility had me feel like I had to do the perfect thing and show up and be the perfect way, you know, put some pressure on myself to perform and get it right.
01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:50.880
And the more I've done it, the more I've been able to truly relax into trusting the process and trusting every person and every energy in the space.
01:04:51.679 --> 01:04:53.679
Because it's out of your hands totally.
01:04:53.920 --> 01:04:54.880
Absolutely.
01:04:55.039 --> 01:04:56.159
Yeah, absolutely.
01:04:56.719 --> 01:05:01.119
One question before the closing question Do you also work with teams?
01:05:01.599 --> 01:05:02.159
I do.
01:05:02.880 --> 01:05:05.519
On also on the journeys, on the ceremonies.
01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:08.480
Yes, I am really passionate about this.
01:05:08.800 --> 01:05:49.679
That is, you know, when we talk about energetic intelligence, leadership, that is the vision that inspired really the whole company for me, you know, doing executive coaching work and leadership work, and then seeing difference that these ceremonies can make in team communication, in executive presence, in mindfulness, in truly feeling connected to an organization's vision and mission and values, and to have a completely new experience of embodying those things, you know, seeing what that brings to organizations and then seeing what each of those people then take home to their families as well.
01:05:50.079 --> 01:05:52.400
It's it's mind blowing to me.
01:05:52.480 --> 01:05:58.559
Like I really, I'm sure you can tell like my energy is just like, yes, I'm such an ecstatic yes to this.
01:05:58.800 --> 01:05:59.599
And obviously.
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:01.920
There are a lot of considerations.
01:06:03.440 --> 01:06:06.159
That this work is so intimate and vulnerable.
01:06:06.480 --> 01:06:16.320
And you know, the CEO might not want the person on this team that they don't know well to know some of the inner challenges that they're struggling with on a personal level.
01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:27.760
So it takes a lot of trust and a lot of intentionality to craft not only who gets to be in the room with whom, but also when.
01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:30.400
And when are these people ready to do that?
01:06:30.880 --> 01:06:37.920
So usually for us, it starts with working with the executive team, the C-suite team or co-founder team.
01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:50.559
And then after some of that work and after some integration, and after they do take it back in, and they're taking the lessons they've learned back into different teams and um, you know, what's the word I'm looking for?
01:06:50.719 --> 01:06:51.599
Departments.
01:06:51.840 --> 01:06:57.360
Then every night, then somebody will say, okay, I think, you know, Joe in accounting is ready.
01:06:57.519 --> 01:06:59.199
I want to invite them in.
01:06:59.599 --> 01:07:14.400
Uh, it often, at least at this point in time as well, it often has to be done more in a personal, it has to be set up as a personal, you know, it's not like the company is going to sponsor your team to come do this.
01:07:14.480 --> 01:07:19.360
That's just not, we're not maybe ready for that just yet with most organizations.
01:07:19.519 --> 01:07:22.639
I love working with startups because they kind of get to make their own rules.
01:07:22.800 --> 01:07:23.280
Yeah.
01:07:23.440 --> 01:07:26.639
You know, so it's it's a lot more viable in that world.
01:07:26.960 --> 01:07:29.280
Also, I get really excited about that.
01:07:29.440 --> 01:07:41.360
But I certainly, you know, have a vision of someday getting to work with, I don't know, some Bank of America bringing their team to do a retreat like this, you know, something like that.
01:07:41.599 --> 01:07:46.079
But yes, I love that is my that's one of my favorite things to do in this world.
01:07:46.639 --> 01:07:47.360
Beautiful.
01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:47.920
Thank you.
01:07:48.000 --> 01:07:49.440
I'm glad that I asked.
01:07:49.760 --> 01:07:50.239
Me too.
01:07:51.039 --> 01:07:52.800
Seeing possibility.
01:07:53.840 --> 01:08:01.280
What is the advice that you would have liked to you received early in your life when you got started?
01:08:02.639 --> 01:08:11.920
There's one that has come in over and over on over the last few years, which is you're you're there, you're here, you've made it.
01:08:12.239 --> 01:08:15.199
You don't have to try, so you don't have to prove yourself anymore.
01:08:16.159 --> 01:08:26.079
You know, and that's something that I wish sometimes I could go back in time, you know, 20, 30 years ago and tell my younger self, you don't have to prove yourself.
01:08:26.560 --> 01:08:29.520
Yes, hold yourself to a standard of excellence.
01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:36.159
Trust that your integrity matters and that it takes dedication and continued work and study.
01:08:36.319 --> 01:08:44.720
It doesn't mean you stop, but you aren't lacking in anything, you know, is what I I wish that I had heard more of.
01:08:44.960 --> 01:08:47.840
And when I did start to hear it, it really resonated.
01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:49.520
It took me a while to believe it.
01:08:49.680 --> 01:08:53.039
You know, I've had to hear it from some of my own teachers and mentors.
01:08:53.199 --> 01:08:58.399
I have had to hear that over and over before it started to crack through the armor.
01:08:58.479 --> 01:09:03.840
I thank you for staying tuned and for listening until the very end.
01:09:04.079 --> 01:09:08.800
I hope that you found the inspiration and the wisdom that you are looking for.
01:09:08.960 --> 01:09:19.760
And I hope that you will subscribe to the show so that you never miss any of the interviews with another inspiring facilitator from across the world.
01:09:20.079 --> 01:09:30.239
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01:09:30.399 --> 01:09:45.920
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01:09:46.479 --> 01:09:47.359
Thank you so much.
01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:50.960
I hope to be in your ears next week.