Ep.30 A Masterclass on Climbing the Corporate Ladder with Shopify MD Shimona Mehta

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Acast is home to the world's best podcasts, including Red Room,
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Catch up with Louise McSharry on the one you're listening
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to right now.
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Hire first for character and values and integrity. Everything else
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can be taught. We looked for people that we knew
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were going to become allies for each other and want
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to create the right environment for each other. If there's
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even a bit of a flag during the interview process
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on that, those folks are out. Do these people look
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like they're learners? Have they reached their ceiling or are
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they actually still on an upward trajectory in their career
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and in their skill set and what they're doing? If
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we don't have great diversity in the teams that are
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building the technology, then there'll be bias in the technology
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that gets built. Does this person speak English? Because with
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her name, it sounds like there might be an accent issue.
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So like that in itself has been like.
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It's so problematic. Hey guys, welcome back. In today's episode,
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I talk to Shimona Mehta, who is none other than
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the managing director of EMEA for Shopify, which is an
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incredible job title. And we talk about her whole career,
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how she kind of worked her way up in corporate.
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She started in consumer goods, moved over to tech. I
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think we touched on quite a few very important points,
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if I do say so myself. I personally learned a
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lot throughout the course of the podcast. And we talk
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particularly about learning how to lead, I think is one
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of the really, really, really important things. I think as
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you move up through your career, especially in the corporate side,
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it's really natural that you get good at your job
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and become a manager. Whereas you're not necessarily taught how
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to lead and learning just how you're meant to lead
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and how you're meant to be a good people person
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and a good people manager is really important part of that.
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So we talk about that. We also talk about imposter
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syndrome quite a lot in depth. And also Shimona's experience
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being a woman of color, leading in tech, a woman
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in tech. I think that, you know, she's been able
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to share some really, really valuable insights into her journey
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and her career. And I think this will be an
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incredibly helpful episode, especially for people who are within the
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corporate world, working their way up through their career. and
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especially women. She's been so open and honest and imparted
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a lot of wisdom. So I really hope you enjoy
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this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it. I
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always love having people on here that, you know, my
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network is very founder rich. It always will be because,
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you know, that's what I do. And I'm going to
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be connected with people who are kind of doing a
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similar thing to me, albeit far better than I do it.
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I really, really love talking to people who are in
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different career paths. And I think that that can be really,
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really valuable because I particularly think that the corporate world
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isn't necessarily shown in mainstream media in terms of things
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like podcasts. So, yeah, I thought this was a great episode.
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I hope you enjoy. And as always, have an amazing week.
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Shimona Mehta is an acclaimed tech pioneer with extensive experience
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in retail technology, food and beverage. Delving deeper, Shimona and
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I get real on female leadership in the tech industry,
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touching on the uphill battle for women to reach the
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top and also to feel like they belong there. We also,
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at the end, have a little Q & A on
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side hustles. We answer all your questions from Instagram on
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when you should leave your other job, how you should
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build your business, how you should just start, how you
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should overcome your fear of failure. And Shimona imparts some really,
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really valuable advice that I personally learned.
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A lot from.
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We're just going to dive straight into it. Thank you
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so much for joining me today.
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So good to be here. Thanks for having me.
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I want to get straight into a kind of whistle-stop
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tour of your career because I think that what I
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really want to talk to you about is the fact
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that like you've had such an incredible journey in getting
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to such an incredible top job and I feel like
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a lot of what we see in the media is
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all about entrepreneurship. It's all about like really fast kind
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of rise to like this one thing and there's not
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a lot out there about actually kind of corporate climbing
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the ranks like going exactly to kind of where you've
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got to and all of that and I'd really like
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to explore that more and kind of talk about your
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journey for people who are kind of on that route
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as well just to kind of set the scene could
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you give us a little whistle stop tour of your
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career in kind of a few bullet points if possible.
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I'll try I'll start actually towards the end of university
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because my original intention actually, I was doing sociology and
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women's studies because I thought I was going to go
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into social work. Okay. I've just always had that passion
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to somehow want to change and positively impact the world.
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And so that's how I thought I was going to
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do it. I ended up taking a year off of
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school and ended up in Sri Lanka working for an
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NGO called Women in Need, helping women and children victims
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of domestic violence and rape. I did that for about
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six months and realized that was not how I was
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going to be able to spend my career. It's just
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so emotionally heavy. The people who are in social work
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are a special kind of angel, and I didn't feel
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like I had the strength to do that. That got scrapped.
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Now I end up leaving school with literally no idea
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what I'm going to do. In fact, my first job,
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my mom got me really at her company, which was
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a consumer goods company. It was a chicken and fish
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company in Canada where I was raised. And I fell
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into marketing, really. I was in consumer relations. I was
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in marketing. Really decided I liked that. I liked product
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development and connecting with customers. I did that for a
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little while, but I realized it was just... It was
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just so slow moving. And it was a really predictable
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world to land yourself in when you're in the consumer
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goods world. It grows a certain percentage every single year.
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And they're very predictable career paths. Two years as a
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product manager, two years as a brand manager, two years
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as a senior. And I started to learn, okay, I
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don't like predictability. I need something more. And I wanted
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to learn how to shape things. So I ended up
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flipping over.
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I went.
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customer facing, and I was working for a global market
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research company, which was fun because now I was sitting
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in a room with like VPs of sales and marketing
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and those that were actually creating the plans and strategies
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for their organizations, also still in the food and restaurant industry.
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So it was a lot of fun because I got
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to be in the room for those things and learn
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how that happened. But once again, really slow moving, predictable world,
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not a lot of growth, so not a lot of innovation.
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And so again, realized I need something more. I want
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to build stuff. I want to grow. And that is
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when actually I made my transition over to tech. First
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with a scale up that was actually out of Berlin
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that was looking to do North American and South American
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expansion and building their sales organizations. And it was so
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much fun. And then most recently, the last six, seven
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years now at Shopify, first to build Shopify Plus, which
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was kind of our large business kind of enterprise arm
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that we were just starting to build and figure out.
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And then to build EMEA for us for the last
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few years as well here in London.
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When you wanted to make that change from consumer to tech,
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how did you know that that was a, because I
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feel like we often get onto career paths, especially more
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in the corporate world. And when you're in a job
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that has a kind of very set path, it's easy
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to have that kind of invested time fallacy where you
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think that because you've spent X amount of time in this,
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you have to go forward in this. Otherwise, you're almost
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scrapping all of the time you've spent in things rather
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than going back and just kind of sidestepping almost and
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being like, actually, I'm going to go up this stage.
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How did you kind of gather the confidence to be
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able to sidestep and say, do you know what? Consumer goods,
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I can now do tech.
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Great question. It was a really hard decision, actually. I
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had a ton of fear at the time. I was
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doing really well. I was the director of Canada for
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our food and restaurant business. I had great mentors. I
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had a really well laid out path for myself at
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this company that I was at. People I liked to
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work with. It was all great. So this really was
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about taking a risk. And I was incredibly fearful, to
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be honest. It was actually my parents that said to me,
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you know, Shimona, nothing in life is irreversible. Why don't
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you just give it a shot? If it doesn't work out,
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you've built a great career here. You have people who
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respect you. You've got supporters. You can come back, right,
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in some capacity if it doesn't work. But what have
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you got to lose, right? And that was my first
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lesson that almost everything in life is a two-way door.
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And I think that we often treat everything as a
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one-way door.
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And I feel like it's a lot of the time
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as well, it's been from previous generations where the thing
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really is you earn your stripes in something for like 30,
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40 years, then you get your success and then you
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move from there. Whereas we very much have... kind of
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move towards more of this idea of the kind of
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portfolio career both in terms of self-employment in terms of
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side hustles but also in terms of actually how you
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build your career like you might be in a direct
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path but you're going to have a different take on
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that direct path to this person next to you you're
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going to have different skills that are going to mean
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that you can do it well and like that is
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your superpower but I feel like it is still terrifying
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and there is still very much in your head this
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idea that actually if I sidestep industry or job role
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or completely change it, rather than building on the experience
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I already have, we have in our brain that it's
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kind of like square one, rather than just stepping onto
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a different ladder.
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A hundred percent. You're absolutely right. I think that was
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our parents' generation. Whereas now, and I talked to a
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lot of our younger women at Shopify about this, because
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we have a lot of folks that are, you know,
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kind of beginning of their careers, is careers are long, right?
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There's so many paths that you can potentially take. And
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And there's so much to learn, but there's also for me,
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particularly a lot of like my career path up until
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now has really been what I call kind of a
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journey and self awareness. Like, what am I actually good at?
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What do I want to do? What is the impact
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I want to have on this world? Like, where do
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I get my fulfillment, right? Versus feeling you need to
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have to make that, made that decision at 21 in
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school and then just keep doing that.
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Well, that is what's so insane is that if you
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track the start of your career back to when you
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first graduate or when you first leave school, you think
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about it as a linear progression from essentially from there
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before then you chose subjects for exams, especially in the UK,
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you obviously have to whittle down to literally four subjects
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if you're doing A-level or three subjects if you're doing A-levels.
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And before that, you need to choose four specialist subjects
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with your GCSEs. So it's kind of like you actually
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go back and realize that you've chosen your career at
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15 or 14.
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Can you imagine?
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Which is insane. I mean, it makes absolutely no sense.
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And I think that the more we can get into
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our heads that you're never taking a step backwards. If
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you look ahead and you think, I'm doing this for
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40 more years. Like, if you really kind of think
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about it, I'm going to do it for 40 more
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years or at least a few more decades. there is
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nothing that two years or three years sidestepping or going
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maybe like a tiny bit down to go up is
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going to ruin about that. That's if anything, it can
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kind of make that better, which I think we're probably
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not taught as much because it's, you know, it's risk taking.
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It is risk taking.
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And when you were working up at your previous company,
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and then also when you moved over to tech, what
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would you say the biggest challenges you kind of faced
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in terms of moving up through the ranks kind of traditionally?
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I know you said that there was a pretty set
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career path. Did you find that Did you find it
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happened usually on time when you were expecting those promotions?
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I found, so I'm generally an impatient person.
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Right.
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Probably why I needed to end up in tech where
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I could build things and I could really be a
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part of like how we drive forward. So I usually
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found that things were not happening at the pace that
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I wanted to because I wanted to learn. That's one
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of the things I've realized, right? I need to be
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learning and growing and getting better or I'm bored and stagnant.
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Mm-hmm.
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And so what I found, particularly the first part of
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my career, is I started to jump to make the
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next step happen, right? So if there's no space in
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this medium-sized company that's growing 3% a year to move up, great,
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then I'm going to go find that at another company.
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That was how I kind of built progression for myself.
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But by the time I got to Shopify, actually, what
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I started to realize at that point is I wasn't
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getting fulfillment about like a title change or a raise,
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where I was getting fulfillment was who am I working with?
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What am I building? Who am I leading? And do
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I get to build with my values? So again, a
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little bit of a self-awareness journey for me too.
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100% and just getting to know yourself throughout the process.
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Obviously your job now is, I mean, it's an incredible
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title and I have no doubt that the actual work
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is just as incredible and just, you know, fulfills you
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so much as well as just kind of that title.
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But how did that feel at that moment that you
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got promoted and what was kind of the story around
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that to you becoming the managing director?
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Ooh. So here's actually how I approached my time here
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at Shopify for the last six years. Cause I had
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come to that realization that it wasn't just about like
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titles and raises and anything like that anymore. I picked
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Shopify cause I really loved what they were doing and
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I really fell in love with the people that I met.
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Right.
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Right.
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And so I've, I realized very early that Shopify was
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going to be a really special place to grow and build.
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as we've seen over the last six years and what
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they've been able to do. Uh, and so I told
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my bosses really early on, I was like, listen, if
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I get to work with you guys, cause we were
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really aligned in values. If I get to build stuff
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and if I get to be building and leading people,
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those are the three things I need. You can ask
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me to do anything you want and I'll say yes,
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because I just want to enjoy my ride here. And
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what I committed to them then was always to make
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decisions based on what was best for Shopify. We were
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growing incredibly fast, as you and I have been talking about.
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So I committed to out-learning everyone as well. I was
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always trying to be prepared and learning for what they
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were going to need to ask of me next. That's
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actually how I ended up progressing into ending up in London,
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from Toronto, moving to London, being the MD of EMEA here.
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I was just trying to set myself up for, I
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was just trying to set us up for, what do
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we need to do next? How do I be prepared
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to help with that? If you need to tap me
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on the shoulder... Am I ready? Right. You're going to
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have someone that you can look to be like, can
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you go help with this? Which is actually how it happened.
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They're like, Hey, could you go to London and start
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to build the EMEA organization for us? Remember you said
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you'd say yes to anything.
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And so it.
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Was like, yeah, sure. Absolutely. It's an adventure. Why not?
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Yeah.
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I mean, that's incredible. And I also feel like it's
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what you've said there about it being less, I mean,
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It's important, obviously, for us, especially as women, to never
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think that a title is too big for us. Like,
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never be like, do you know what, that wouldn't make
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sense for me. It absolutely would make sense for you
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and for you kind of even to think that is important.
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But I also think even just the point there about
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being less about the title, more about putting yourself in
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that position in the way that you're constantly learning, you're
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constantly progressing, you're constantly solving problems. and you're a yes person,
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like you're going to be saying yes to opportunities and
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saying yes to things that you probably feel absolutely terrified
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to do. And it says a lot about rather than
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aiming for the title so much as putting yourself in
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the role, in the way you act, the way you learn,
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all of those things, which I absolutely love. Then when
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you moved to London, how did you set out going,
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do you know what? Okay, Shopify, I can do that here.
375
00:17:37.029 --> 00:17:40.730
When I first joined Shopify in 2017, for Shopify plus
376
00:17:40.789 --> 00:17:43.009
we were focused really that year and just starting to
377
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build some of the core of our team there. Um,
378
00:17:46.190 --> 00:17:48.259
but it became really clear to us early on that
379
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there was just enough demand and momentum coming at us
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that we were just going to have to start growing
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in both an APAC as well as an EMEA faster
382
00:17:56.660 --> 00:17:59.599
than we thought. So we'd actually started from, you know,
383
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Toronto itself. to start to hire people remotely and put
384
00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:03.740
them out here.
385
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Right.
386
00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:05.609
So we had a few folks that we had been
387
00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:09.690
hiring and building here in London. So it was great
388
00:18:09.710 --> 00:18:11.329
because we had a core group of people that were
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00:18:11.390 --> 00:18:14.950
super passionate, that were driving for us, that loved being
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in front of our merchants. And so when I got
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here in 2019, we had a nice tight group of
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00:18:21.170 --> 00:18:23.670
folks that was, you know, somewhere 12 to 20 people
393
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at that point. That was a good starting point. Yeah.
394
00:18:27.220 --> 00:18:30.180
And then we promptly ended up in COVID and all
395
00:18:30.220 --> 00:18:33.720
the lockdowns. And so honestly, the journey for the last
396
00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:36.619
few years has been a few things. One is building
397
00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:39.539
the organization. I'm a really firm believer that if you've
398
00:18:39.579 --> 00:18:43.599
got the right people in place, everything else falls from that, right?
399
00:18:43.619 --> 00:18:46.200
Because you can't, as a leader particularly, like I can't
400
00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:48.819
do everything myself. If all of our success is going
401
00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:51.380
to be on my shoulders, we're effed.
402
00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:51.609
Yeah.
403
00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:54.069
So I better find some really, really great people that
404
00:18:54.130 --> 00:18:55.809
I want to build with. the same way that I
405
00:18:55.829 --> 00:18:58.559
was looking at my leaders before, right? So the first
406
00:18:58.579 --> 00:19:00.980
step was to build a senior leadership team. And with
407
00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:05.180
that comes then the creativity, the experience, the know-how to
408
00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:07.200
think through how we figure out our path forward.
409
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:10.160
And how did you choose those people? I feel like
410
00:19:10.380 --> 00:19:14.069
my experience with hiring, so as I mentioned before, we
411
00:19:14.089 --> 00:19:16.690
pretty much doubled our headcount within the past six months.
412
00:19:16.750 --> 00:19:19.490
And it's been really exciting. And I'd say that before that,
413
00:19:19.529 --> 00:19:22.009
before I knew the types of people we wanted to hire,
414
00:19:22.029 --> 00:19:25.339
I definitely kind of didn't know how to hire in
415
00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:28.500
terms of I would always hire for experience rather than fit.
416
00:19:28.819 --> 00:19:31.799
And actually, you know, hiring for the type of person
417
00:19:31.819 --> 00:19:33.720
is really, really, really important. Of course, them having the
418
00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:36.420
experience and the skill set is incredibly important. I mean,
419
00:19:36.460 --> 00:19:38.819
you need it, but also hiring the wrong types of
420
00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:40.980
people for the types of culture you have is also
421
00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:44.009
not gonna work. So how did you know who were
422
00:19:44.029 --> 00:19:45.849
the right types of people and did you kind of
423
00:19:45.890 --> 00:19:46.970
make any mistakes in that?
424
00:19:47.390 --> 00:19:51.529
Yes, so there's a few things that I'm adamant about
425
00:19:51.569 --> 00:19:53.309
when I'm hiring in fact I've always said to my
426
00:19:53.349 --> 00:19:56.130
team that if there's anything in leadership I'm good at
427
00:19:56.170 --> 00:19:58.440
or my superpower I think it's hiring really I put
428
00:19:58.500 --> 00:20:00.900
together good teams and I tell them that they're the
429
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:02.880
they're the example of that yeah because I think they're
430
00:20:02.900 --> 00:20:06.890
phenomenal So I'd say first and foremost, hire first for
431
00:20:07.059 --> 00:20:11.759
character and values and integrity. Everything else can be taught, right?
432
00:20:12.140 --> 00:20:14.119
Skill sets and all of those things, those can be
433
00:20:14.140 --> 00:20:17.200
built on. You can never teach character or integrity. So
434
00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:19.779
that is my grounding. If there's even a bit of
435
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:22.460
a flag during the interview process on that, those folks
436
00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:25.190
are out because that's where I start. And then I
437
00:20:25.730 --> 00:20:28.970
always look for slope instead of intercept. What I mean
438
00:20:29.029 --> 00:20:31.890
by that is, do these people look like they're learners?
439
00:20:31.930 --> 00:20:33.829
Have they reached their ceiling or are they actually still
440
00:20:33.869 --> 00:20:36.109
on an upward trajectory in their career and in their
441
00:20:36.150 --> 00:20:38.769
skillset and what they're doing versus hiring for that point
442
00:20:38.829 --> 00:20:42.619
in time? Because when we're in hyper growth organizations, what
443
00:20:42.650 --> 00:20:45.119
you need today is very different than three months for now, right?
444
00:20:45.460 --> 00:20:46.799
And so are you hiring people that are going to
445
00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:48.720
be able to grow with and keep up with the company?
446
00:20:49.059 --> 00:20:53.029
So slope versus intercept. And then... I was looking for
447
00:20:53.109 --> 00:20:58.690
complete diversity, right? So ads, culture ads or team ads
448
00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:01.920
versus fit, right? So, and I'm really proud actually of
449
00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:06.559
what I've built. You know, I've got a mix of genders, orientations,
450
00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:10.720
family dynamics, backgrounds, you know, some from traditional business, some
451
00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:16.440
who are founders themselves, nationalities, languages, different communities, because those
452
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:17.759
are the folks that are going to help us to
453
00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:20.660
build a team that represents the merchants that we represent, right?
454
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:24.069
And then lastly, underneath all of that, when we talk
455
00:21:24.089 --> 00:21:26.849
about diversity of thought, a lot of different personalities as well.
456
00:21:26.910 --> 00:21:27.539
Right. Right.
457
00:21:27.859 --> 00:21:30.539
Who can balance my strengths, who can complement, you know,
458
00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:32.680
where my gaps are so that we're actually building a
459
00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:35.990
more of a complete team versus like. things that just
460
00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:38.019
automatically look the same. Yeah.
461
00:21:38.299 --> 00:21:40.079
And I think that's the crucial thing. I think when
462
00:21:40.099 --> 00:21:42.579
people obviously talk about like hiring for fit, it's really
463
00:21:42.660 --> 00:21:45.240
easy to think that it kind of means hiring very
464
00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:47.839
similar types of people. And you can have very different
465
00:21:47.859 --> 00:21:50.220
types of people with very similar values. And that's obviously
466
00:21:50.269 --> 00:21:51.650
the aim because you need to be able to, as
467
00:21:51.690 --> 00:21:53.869
you say, it adds to the team. It's like, we
468
00:21:53.890 --> 00:21:56.789
don't want 10 of the same people. We want 10
469
00:21:56.789 --> 00:21:59.369
people with the same values who are very different. That's
470
00:21:59.430 --> 00:21:59.910
the ideal.
471
00:22:00.369 --> 00:22:03.309
Absolutely. Because we're looking for, when you hire a bunch
472
00:22:03.349 --> 00:22:05.390
of the same, you end up again with all the
473
00:22:05.430 --> 00:22:09.259
same ideas. You don't represent the community that you're trying
474
00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:11.400
to serve. And you end up with what I think
475
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:13.720
is like a false sense of harmony. If everyone gets
476
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:16.400
along and agrees, you've got a problem. And when you've
477
00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:20.250
got like really true, like good diversity, hopefully you have
478
00:22:20.309 --> 00:22:24.309
really great healthy conflict that interrogates ideas, that stretches each other.
479
00:22:24.490 --> 00:22:26.970
So you end up with something really great. And so
480
00:22:26.990 --> 00:22:28.170
that's the first thing that I look for.
481
00:22:29.230 --> 00:22:31.529
I feel like pretty much every founder or team builder
482
00:22:31.549 --> 00:22:34.589
will learn that the hard way. And you're just then like, right, okay,
483
00:22:34.609 --> 00:22:37.369
there's a reason. I read everything. I read everything that
484
00:22:37.410 --> 00:22:39.190
told me exactly how to do it. And I still
485
00:22:39.269 --> 00:22:42.250
was like, that person worked at somewhere great before. Perfect.
486
00:22:42.329 --> 00:22:45.089
Rather than it being like, no, this person shares similar
487
00:22:45.130 --> 00:22:46.930
values in terms of leadership style and all of that.
488
00:22:46.970 --> 00:22:49.160
And I will not make that mistake again because it
489
00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:50.880
is so, so important.
490
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:55.019
I feel like I've done that exact same thing. particularly
491
00:22:55.059 --> 00:22:57.319
if it was an area or craft or discipline that
492
00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:00.019
I felt weakened, that I really went looking for someone
493
00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:02.089
that was just like, had a ton of experience in
494
00:23:02.119 --> 00:23:05.589
that area. Cause I just needed someone who was super smart, um,
495
00:23:05.630 --> 00:23:07.630
that I could trust. And that was often a mistake
496
00:23:07.690 --> 00:23:09.490
I made. Cause again, I forgot to go back to,
497
00:23:09.509 --> 00:23:12.150
did I look for character integrity values and all of
498
00:23:12.210 --> 00:23:16.269
those things first and slope versus intercept? Or did I
499
00:23:16.309 --> 00:23:18.890
just look for someone that was just incredibly tenured, had
500
00:23:18.930 --> 00:23:20.940
done it over and over and that could just bring
501
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:22.740
the knowledge that I didn't have. Because again, I was
502
00:23:22.779 --> 00:23:24.240
second guessing my own leadership.
503
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:26.450
Right. And talking about that, I'd like to talk a
504
00:23:26.450 --> 00:23:29.490
little bit about imposter syndrome. Now, I'm always really careful
505
00:23:29.509 --> 00:23:31.230
when I bring this up with women, because I think
506
00:23:31.289 --> 00:23:33.529
that a lot of the time, well, first of all,
507
00:23:33.609 --> 00:23:36.619
I find that I'm always asked on interviews about imposter syndrome.
508
00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:39.400
And it's also probably because We don't see women in
509
00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:41.880
leadership positions. We particularly don't see women of colour in
510
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:44.039
positions that they should be in. All of these different
511
00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:46.339
things that it's like, of course someone has imposter syndrome
512
00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:49.589
if they can't see anyone else within that space that
513
00:23:49.630 --> 00:23:52.049
looks like them. And I always want to be very
514
00:23:52.069 --> 00:23:54.309
careful about being like, do you have imposter syndrome? It
515
00:23:54.329 --> 00:23:56.579
kind of like, it kind of insinuates like you should
516
00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:59.440
because actually the way, you know, we see leadership is...
517
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.140
white men a lot of the time. So I'd like
518
00:24:02.180 --> 00:24:04.660
to talk a little about a bit about that and
519
00:24:04.859 --> 00:24:07.259
your experience with it if you have had an experience
520
00:24:07.299 --> 00:24:07.640
with it.
521
00:24:07.940 --> 00:24:10.910
So really early on when I was at the market
522
00:24:10.930 --> 00:24:13.109
research company, you know, and I was, like I said,
523
00:24:13.130 --> 00:24:16.130
I was in those boardrooms with those, you know, VPs
524
00:24:16.190 --> 00:24:19.009
of sales and the CEOs of these companies and the
525
00:24:19.069 --> 00:24:25.059
restaurants and all of that. Again, generally a fairly older demographic,
526
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:27.519
often just, you know, kind of a white dude environment.
527
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:31.470
I think two things happen, right? A was they would
528
00:24:31.529 --> 00:24:35.410
see me as this like young girl who couldn't possibly
529
00:24:35.450 --> 00:24:38.089
know as much as them in some cases, not all.
530
00:24:38.210 --> 00:24:41.970
I had actually some really impressive and supportive clients who
531
00:24:42.259 --> 00:24:44.180
treated me like an equal in the room, right?
532
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:45.319
Which shouldn't be a surprise.
533
00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:47.970
Which shouldn't be a surprise, but I just want to,
534
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:50.759
but there was, it happened enough times that it caused
535
00:24:50.779 --> 00:24:54.420
me to second guess myself. And then from the flip side,
536
00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:57.009
so what that ended up doing is me starting to
537
00:24:57.109 --> 00:24:59.089
question how I was showing up in the room.
538
00:24:59.250 --> 00:24:59.410
Right.
539
00:25:00.029 --> 00:25:02.329
And like, do I need to act a different way?
540
00:25:02.349 --> 00:25:04.450
Do I need to be more bold and aggressive so
541
00:25:04.490 --> 00:25:06.859
that they listen to me? Do I need to dress
542
00:25:06.910 --> 00:25:07.680
a certain way?
543
00:25:08.059 --> 00:25:08.220
Right.
544
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:11.299
And I don't know about you, Grace, but like over
545
00:25:11.339 --> 00:25:13.619
the course of my career, I swear I've gotten like
546
00:25:13.660 --> 00:25:17.329
the advice in every direction, dress more femininely, you know,
547
00:25:17.369 --> 00:25:19.809
so that you get the attention of, or you know what,
548
00:25:19.829 --> 00:25:22.190
you really need to dress down your femininity to like,
549
00:25:22.250 --> 00:25:25.150
so that you take control. And like, I just confused myself.
550
00:25:25.250 --> 00:25:27.279
Either way, there's going to be a problem with it,
551
00:25:27.329 --> 00:25:27.849
I would say.
552
00:25:28.410 --> 00:25:31.069
And so it actually took me years to just say,
553
00:25:31.089 --> 00:25:34.289
fuck it. Yeah. I'm going to show up as me.
554
00:25:34.490 --> 00:25:35.269
Yeah.
555
00:25:35.369 --> 00:25:38.470
And actually, I've heard Bozema St. John say this before
556
00:25:38.490 --> 00:25:41.549
in a podcast, and this really resonated with me, which
557
00:25:41.609 --> 00:25:45.519
was she said that when she stopped worrying so much
558
00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:48.559
about how she was showing up and just allowed herself
559
00:25:48.579 --> 00:25:51.440
to show up as her authentic self, All of that
560
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:54.759
energy could now go towards being kick-ass at her job.
561
00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:55.640
Right. Right?
562
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:58.160
Otherwise, you put all this energy into trying to be something,
563
00:25:58.180 --> 00:26:02.029
show up as something. And then you're learning and how
564
00:26:02.069 --> 00:26:03.849
you show up in your work is going to suffer.
565
00:26:04.309 --> 00:26:06.609
Well, I look back at when I first started to,
566
00:26:06.650 --> 00:26:08.829
I guess, lead a team. So when I first started
567
00:26:08.849 --> 00:26:12.710
to work more, essentially, my businesses became my job, my
568
00:26:12.750 --> 00:26:17.660
full-time job. And I think my imposter syndrome then meant
569
00:26:17.779 --> 00:26:22.519
that I was a far worse... leader because I felt
570
00:26:22.579 --> 00:26:24.559
like I needed to act in a certain way so
571
00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:27.000
I felt like I needed to act like you know
572
00:26:27.019 --> 00:26:32.609
almost imposing opinions or views or demanding respect from people
573
00:26:32.670 --> 00:26:34.490
in a way that I actually as a person would
574
00:26:34.589 --> 00:26:36.750
never do like the way I work with people now
575
00:26:36.809 --> 00:26:38.630
is the way I talk to my friends that doesn't
576
00:26:38.670 --> 00:26:40.190
mean that you can't say do you know what this
577
00:26:40.230 --> 00:26:42.289
isn't there yet I need that done again and we've
578
00:26:42.309 --> 00:26:44.250
talked about this before like let's go over it if
579
00:26:44.289 --> 00:26:46.450
there's an issue like there's there's ways that you can
580
00:26:46.509 --> 00:26:49.170
say things without it being a problem but I felt
581
00:26:49.210 --> 00:26:52.970
like I needed to Because I don't think I necessarily
582
00:26:53.069 --> 00:26:56.480
knew how to be the right leader. And therefore, because
583
00:26:56.519 --> 00:26:59.779
I couldn't see a woman doing it, that I could
584
00:26:59.819 --> 00:27:02.759
kind of, you know... jump on I kind of thought
585
00:27:02.859 --> 00:27:05.819
you need to be almost mean in order to lead
586
00:27:05.940 --> 00:27:08.339
and that was my way of almost garnering respect because
587
00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:10.259
I was like no I'm telling you what to do
588
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:12.500
because in my head I assumed well no one's going
589
00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:13.859
to take me seriously so I'm going to make them
590
00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:16.769
take me seriously and actually now I'm a far better
591
00:27:16.809 --> 00:27:18.710
leader I'd like to think because I'm able to be
592
00:27:18.730 --> 00:27:20.690
like it's not for me to convince you to take
593
00:27:20.730 --> 00:27:23.250
me seriously I'm this is how I'd like this done
594
00:27:23.289 --> 00:27:24.390
and this is how we're going to do it and
595
00:27:24.430 --> 00:27:25.650
I can back it up and that's fine and I
596
00:27:25.690 --> 00:27:27.309
can be really nice about it but I feel like
597
00:27:27.740 --> 00:27:30.380
I was such a bad leader for so long because
598
00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:32.299
I felt like I needed to lead in a certain
599
00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:37.859
way that was this kind of very like male attributes
600
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:41.420
thing that I'd been told almost be less feminine to
601
00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:44.059
be a leader. And it just made me like, I'm
602
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:46.319
great at leading now because I'm a nice human being.
603
00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:49.269
And I kind of feel like that's the difference where,
604
00:27:49.289 --> 00:27:51.750
I don't know, I feel like it can really manifest.
605
00:27:52.309 --> 00:27:55.339
Don't you feel like though that, Um, you kind of
606
00:27:55.380 --> 00:27:57.119
had to go through doing it bad for a little
607
00:27:57.140 --> 00:27:59.250
while in order to discover that there was a better path.
608
00:27:59.630 --> 00:28:02.670
Cause that was the same for me. I'm similar to
609
00:28:02.710 --> 00:28:04.529
you in that the first time I was leading, which
610
00:28:04.569 --> 00:28:07.089
was at that market research company, I was actually an
611
00:28:07.369 --> 00:28:10.849
awful leader. And it was because a, I actually hadn't
612
00:28:10.910 --> 00:28:14.190
thought about going from individual contributor to leader being a
613
00:28:14.230 --> 00:28:16.670
career change. I hadn't thought about whether I really wanted
614
00:28:16.730 --> 00:28:19.109
to do that and why I was doing it. And
615
00:28:19.230 --> 00:28:21.690
like you said, I didn't know what it really was
616
00:28:21.789 --> 00:28:23.430
to lead. So I thought I had to show up
617
00:28:23.450 --> 00:28:26.630
with all the answers. I had to show up decisive
618
00:28:26.650 --> 00:28:29.599
and point people in the right direction and know all
619
00:28:29.619 --> 00:28:32.200
the things. And so there was no vulnerability there at all.
620
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:35.359
And so actually when I flipped over to tech, I
621
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:37.619
actually went back to being an IC for a little while,
622
00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:40.900
only about four months. But the second time around for
623
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:44.160
moving into leadership, now I was making a conscious decision
624
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:46.420
versus just being a high performer that was promoted into
625
00:28:46.460 --> 00:28:50.089
the role. I had a better sense of like, why
626
00:28:50.109 --> 00:28:52.930
I wanted to do it, that it wasn't about me
627
00:28:54.009 --> 00:28:56.130
and that it was really about building and giving because
628
00:28:56.269 --> 00:28:58.009
we were in tech, we were in hyper growth. So
629
00:28:58.029 --> 00:29:00.289
it was about building and getting people moving in the
630
00:29:00.329 --> 00:29:04.269
right direction together. And then at Shopify, particularly over the
631
00:29:04.289 --> 00:29:07.619
last six, seven years, I've really started to hone in
632
00:29:07.730 --> 00:29:09.740
on like, what are my superpowers? What does it mean
633
00:29:09.779 --> 00:29:12.359
to be a great leader? Realizing actually that this is
634
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:15.279
my life's work is to be able to demonstrate to
635
00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:21.559
the through great leadership, because as we've seen over the
636
00:29:21.579 --> 00:29:23.140
last few years, there's a lot of bad leadership in
637
00:29:23.180 --> 00:29:28.759
this world. You can build with vulnerability and empathy and
638
00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:34.089
build great engaging organizations that are growing quickly while being
639
00:29:34.130 --> 00:29:35.849
a woman and a woman of color. Yeah.
640
00:29:35.990 --> 00:29:38.910
So I would say that as well, within that point
641
00:29:38.990 --> 00:29:42.670
of the leadership with vulnerability, leading with kind of kindness
642
00:29:42.690 --> 00:29:44.539
and all of these things, I do think it must
643
00:29:44.579 --> 00:29:48.180
stem back to the idea of like the, the male
644
00:29:48.220 --> 00:29:51.319
leadership thing that we've kind of learned as in rather
645
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:57.299
than saying, bring your great qualities to leadership. It's, leadership
646
00:29:57.339 --> 00:29:59.779
looks like this because we know it looks like this
647
00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:03.690
and therefore replicate. And I feel like, as you said,
648
00:30:03.950 --> 00:30:06.910
in the kind of point about being decisive, showing up
649
00:30:06.950 --> 00:30:08.369
with all the answers, all of these things. That is
650
00:30:08.430 --> 00:30:11.069
exactly what I would do. I would show up thinking,
651
00:30:11.490 --> 00:30:13.720
say I'd be asked something, say I didn't understand five
652
00:30:13.819 --> 00:30:16.319
out of seven words in the sentence, I would pretend
653
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:18.420
I did. And like, then there would be like a
654
00:30:18.460 --> 00:30:21.359
decision and I'd be like, yeah, this one. Rather than like,
655
00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:23.759
there is no world that I would feel like I'd
656
00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:25.700
need to do that now because I have enough confidence
657
00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:28.150
as a leader. But I also think that a lot of,
658
00:30:28.269 --> 00:30:33.529
because young men and especially young white men, like we'll
659
00:30:33.630 --> 00:30:36.549
see in a position, it's kind of like, almost expect
660
00:30:36.650 --> 00:30:38.849
to be in there that's a kind of huge generalization
661
00:30:38.890 --> 00:30:40.990
but you can see something that someone that looks like
662
00:30:41.029 --> 00:30:42.970
you in that role so you don't feel like you
663
00:30:42.990 --> 00:30:46.410
need to alter yourself hugely whereas like now I would
664
00:30:46.470 --> 00:30:49.609
go into a room where I have to make a
665
00:30:49.650 --> 00:30:51.799
decision and it would be like hey actually do you
666
00:30:51.819 --> 00:30:53.319
know what I don't know much about that can we
667
00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:55.160
just get some data or can we go through that
668
00:30:55.180 --> 00:30:57.160
for a second so I can fully understand that before
669
00:30:57.200 --> 00:31:00.519
making a decision yes and every leader I've ever had
670
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:02.440
that has led in that way I've respected far more
671
00:31:02.829 --> 00:31:04.980
And I've been able to learn from far more. And
672
00:31:05.019 --> 00:31:06.660
it was kind of like this sudden switch that I
673
00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:09.259
was like, oh, that's how you do it. It's not
674
00:31:09.299 --> 00:31:12.809
about actually just like imparting like, no, we're doing it
675
00:31:12.849 --> 00:31:16.190
this way because I say so. And like, that's that.
676
00:31:16.650 --> 00:31:20.180
A hundred percent. I've really started to make it. my
677
00:31:20.259 --> 00:31:24.019
career to study what I really think great leadership, but
678
00:31:24.059 --> 00:31:26.640
like from a flip side, what does followership actually mean?
679
00:31:26.980 --> 00:31:29.700
What do people want to follow? Like you just said, right?
680
00:31:29.740 --> 00:31:32.690
Those that actually showed up and ask questions and create
681
00:31:32.789 --> 00:31:34.789
space to like, to be vulnerable. Those are the ones
682
00:31:34.809 --> 00:31:35.650
that you want to follow.
683
00:31:36.190 --> 00:31:36.390
Right.
684
00:31:36.430 --> 00:31:38.549
And it was the same. There's a book by John
685
00:31:38.589 --> 00:31:41.990
Maxwell called developing the leader within. And actually in there,
686
00:31:42.009 --> 00:31:45.109
he talks about these five levels of leadership, right? Like
687
00:31:45.390 --> 00:31:48.759
level one is positional leadership, right? So people will follow
688
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:50.740
you just because of what your title is and kind
689
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:53.420
of because they have to all the way up to
690
00:31:53.460 --> 00:31:56.500
what they call personhood, which is people follow you because
691
00:31:56.539 --> 00:31:57.799
of who you are. Right.
692
00:31:58.000 --> 00:31:58.180
Right.
693
00:31:58.220 --> 00:31:59.200
And what you represent.
694
00:31:59.299 --> 00:32:01.480
Right. It's not about title. It's about what you're doing
695
00:32:01.539 --> 00:32:03.019
on the everyday and all of these things. And you
696
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:06.460
never need to kind of like reassert why it's like
697
00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:08.809
this is, you know, and we're all doing this together.
698
00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:11.529
When you kind of had these moments of imposter syndrome,
699
00:32:11.569 --> 00:32:14.069
how would you deal with that?
700
00:32:14.710 --> 00:32:14.950
Yeah.
701
00:32:15.769 --> 00:32:17.869
So how I've gotten good at dealing with that, how
702
00:32:17.890 --> 00:32:20.549
about this versus maybe how I didn't deal well with
703
00:32:20.589 --> 00:32:23.890
it before. I think two things. One is I think
704
00:32:23.930 --> 00:32:27.019
I've got the right people around me now as well.
705
00:32:27.259 --> 00:32:30.579
And I also have a coach that I work with
706
00:32:30.900 --> 00:32:34.880
constantly around making sure that I'm self-aware, that I understand
707
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:37.539
my strengths, that I'm showing up as my authentic self,
708
00:32:37.940 --> 00:32:40.869
that when I have those moments of imposter syndrome that
709
00:32:40.890 --> 00:32:43.119
we're actually talking through, What is the root of that?
710
00:32:43.220 --> 00:32:45.440
How do I get through it? But then also, like
711
00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:47.210
I said, I've got the right people around me or
712
00:32:47.230 --> 00:32:50.430
what I call like my challenge circle, right? Really great
713
00:32:50.490 --> 00:32:53.769
people who are of diverse personality sets that I highly trust.
714
00:32:54.369 --> 00:32:56.009
And some of them are really close friends. Some of
715
00:32:56.029 --> 00:32:58.130
them have been really close colleagues now for the last
716
00:32:58.190 --> 00:33:01.079
few years. And I know, and they actually know they're
717
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:03.319
in what I call my challenge circle. And so they
718
00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:05.619
know when I come to them that I'm asking them
719
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:07.460
and I'm trusting them for real talk, right? So they
720
00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:09.980
can say, Shimona, you know what you're doing. You know,
721
00:33:10.039 --> 00:33:10.740
you know what you're doing.
722
00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:10.859
Yeah.
723
00:33:11.490 --> 00:33:12.990
Get over it and move forward.
724
00:33:13.170 --> 00:33:16.500
I think that's really important, especially because we all have
725
00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:18.579
what you call a challenge circle in terms of like
726
00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:20.400
the people around us. And I think we go to
727
00:33:20.420 --> 00:33:23.339
the people who we need to confirm our biases when
728
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:25.259
there's like a decision to be made. So if you
729
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:27.400
want to be enabled on something, you'll probably go to
730
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:29.529
your friend who's like, yeah, fuck it, do it. Like
731
00:33:29.569 --> 00:33:33.809
great idea. And if you buy that thing, you know,
732
00:33:33.890 --> 00:33:36.029
on the other side, like if you, if you want
733
00:33:36.069 --> 00:33:37.430
to be told not to do something, you'll go to
734
00:33:37.470 --> 00:33:39.190
your really serious friend. And then they're like, do you
735
00:33:39.230 --> 00:33:41.289
know what? This isn't a good idea. And it is
736
00:33:41.369 --> 00:33:43.799
so important to kind of almost be able to reverse
737
00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:45.920
that and be really conscious of that. And I'm always...
738
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:48.640
You know, I'm thinking if I'm going to these three people,
739
00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:50.400
I know what I want them to say.
740
00:33:50.420 --> 00:33:51.099
You know what I want to hear.
741
00:33:51.220 --> 00:33:53.380
And being able to reverse that and just be like, no, no.
742
00:33:53.740 --> 00:33:56.589
If I can get that diverse input from all of
743
00:33:56.630 --> 00:33:59.930
these different personalities and then make my decision, that's going
744
00:33:59.950 --> 00:34:01.750
to be far more important. I think that's taken me
745
00:34:01.789 --> 00:34:03.930
a long time to learn because I'm a very impulsive
746
00:34:03.950 --> 00:34:06.430
person as well. And I'm very decisive. So when I
747
00:34:06.450 --> 00:34:08.050
decide something, I want to stick to it. And actually,
748
00:34:08.070 --> 00:34:09.760
it's taken me a long time to learn. Like, if
749
00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:12.039
you're calling that person, you know, you're just going to
750
00:34:12.059 --> 00:34:13.000
do it anyway. Right. Right.
751
00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:18.900
This is David and John from the David McWilliams podcast
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Catch up with Louise McSharry on the one you're listening
796
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to right now.
797
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:37.880
So I'm guessing, and this is what I've had to
798
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:40.280
do too because I'm similar to you, is I've got
799
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:44.010
a couple of friends who are really thoughtful, very pragmatic,
800
00:36:44.409 --> 00:36:46.909
really think about decisions before they make them. And I
801
00:36:46.949 --> 00:36:49.329
go to them to gut check and make sure that
802
00:36:49.349 --> 00:36:51.840
I've asked all the questions from all the angles. To
803
00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:53.840
then figure out whether I'm making the right decision or not.
804
00:36:54.050 --> 00:36:54.260
Yeah.
805
00:36:54.619 --> 00:36:57.769
And now when you have those, if you have kind
806
00:36:57.789 --> 00:37:01.429
of bad days around imposter syndrome or self-doubt or feeling
807
00:37:01.469 --> 00:37:03.570
like you kind of shouldn't be somewhere or shouldn't be
808
00:37:03.809 --> 00:37:05.650
where you're kind of trying to get to, what are
809
00:37:05.670 --> 00:37:09.739
your kind of coping mechanisms on those bad days? Yeah.
810
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:12.800
I go back to why I'm doing what I'm doing.
811
00:37:13.659 --> 00:37:15.579
And so a lot, there's a bunch of work I've
812
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.300
been doing for the last couple of years with my
813
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:20.489
coach to really start to hone in on life's work.
814
00:37:21.570 --> 00:37:24.389
Because I started to realize like I'm doing great work
815
00:37:24.429 --> 00:37:26.889
for the companies that I work for, but I started
816
00:37:26.909 --> 00:37:29.010
to figure out through all the self-awareness, what am I
817
00:37:29.050 --> 00:37:31.590
good at? What brings me fulfillment? What is the actual
818
00:37:31.650 --> 00:37:34.769
impact I want to have on this world? And therefore,
819
00:37:35.050 --> 00:37:36.929
what are the spaces I have to, how do I
820
00:37:36.949 --> 00:37:39.369
need to stretch myself? What are the spaces I need
821
00:37:39.389 --> 00:37:41.389
to put myself in we talked a little bit about
822
00:37:41.469 --> 00:37:44.409
titles and things like that. And if my life's work,
823
00:37:44.489 --> 00:37:46.070
which is what I've kind of honed in on is
824
00:37:46.489 --> 00:37:48.389
to demonstrate to the world that we can build great
825
00:37:48.449 --> 00:37:51.949
organizations with great leadership that builds engaging teams and diverse
826
00:37:51.969 --> 00:37:55.769
teams and to widen the road for other women and
827
00:37:55.789 --> 00:37:58.289
women of color to come up behind me. Well, in
828
00:37:58.449 --> 00:38:00.449
order to do that, I'm going to have to put
829
00:38:00.510 --> 00:38:04.289
myself in positions that are prominent, where I allow the
830
00:38:04.329 --> 00:38:07.730
spotlight to be on me, where I probably have to
831
00:38:07.769 --> 00:38:10.130
think about like the titles and stretching for things that
832
00:38:10.469 --> 00:38:12.489
in order to do that work, right? Which means I'm
833
00:38:12.510 --> 00:38:14.969
going to be scared. I'm going to be putting myself
834
00:38:15.010 --> 00:38:16.710
in positions that I'm not sure if I can do
835
00:38:16.769 --> 00:38:18.510
it because I haven't seen others do it before. I
836
00:38:19.150 --> 00:38:20.789
have to go back to, but Shimona, you said that
837
00:38:20.829 --> 00:38:22.150
this is the thing that you want to do for
838
00:38:22.170 --> 00:38:23.750
the world. You got to go try this.
839
00:38:23.909 --> 00:38:25.659
So I think that's really valuable because I think it's
840
00:38:25.739 --> 00:38:29.760
almost saying when you have imposter syndrome, that is a,
841
00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:33.039
almost a thermostat saying you're doing the right thing. Because
842
00:38:33.239 --> 00:38:35.800
if you're putting yourself in a situation where you haven't
843
00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:38.719
seen someone like you before and you haven't felt like
844
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:41.340
you could even get there. Perfect. That means you're pushing
845
00:38:41.360 --> 00:38:43.380
all your boundaries. That means you're pushing the boundaries of
846
00:38:43.539 --> 00:38:46.280
societal expectations, all of these things. And it kind of
847
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:49.239
confirms that that's the direction you need to go in.
848
00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:52.739
A hundred percent. And then I also call a couple
849
00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:58.670
of my confirmation challenge circle folks, right? Who will remind me, right? Shimona,
850
00:38:58.690 --> 00:39:02.610
you're doing good things. Shimona, you're awesome. Right? Every once
851
00:39:02.630 --> 00:39:04.309
in a while, we all need to hear that.
852
00:39:04.309 --> 00:39:04.530
100%.
853
00:39:04.530 --> 00:39:08.349
And so I've got those that I can call who
854
00:39:08.389 --> 00:39:10.469
can pump up my ego and remind me that I'm
855
00:39:10.510 --> 00:39:13.429
doing the right things for the right reasons. Lauren Paddleford,
856
00:39:13.449 --> 00:39:17.840
who used to run Shopify Plus, constantly will tell me, like, Shimona,
857
00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:21.219
you can do hard things. You're absolutely right. I can.
858
00:39:22.019 --> 00:39:24.980
Kind of coming back to leadership a little, what do
859
00:39:25.019 --> 00:39:28.119
you feel like your best traits as a leader are?
860
00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:28.929
Hmm.
861
00:39:30.820 --> 00:39:33.019
There's a few skill sets, I think, that all leaders
862
00:39:33.059 --> 00:39:36.199
need to develop. And then you're right, there's some characteristics
863
00:39:36.260 --> 00:39:38.420
or like values by which we need to show up with.
864
00:39:38.969 --> 00:39:42.550
I think that from a skill set perspective as leaders,
865
00:39:42.849 --> 00:39:44.869
we all need to be great at like, there's some fundamentals,
866
00:39:44.889 --> 00:39:46.730
like we all need to be great, really great at
867
00:39:46.750 --> 00:39:49.059
hiring and We need to be great at setting and
868
00:39:49.099 --> 00:39:52.260
holding high standards. We need to be really great at
869
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:55.619
creating the conditions for success, like clarity for people. Where
870
00:39:55.639 --> 00:39:58.679
are we headed? Communicating. We need to be great at
871
00:39:58.760 --> 00:40:01.280
creating psychological safety so that people feel like they can
872
00:40:01.340 --> 00:40:04.280
show up, that they can take risks, that they can fail,
873
00:40:04.340 --> 00:40:07.250
that they can grow. We need to be great storytellers
874
00:40:07.329 --> 00:40:09.510
and we need to be able to build great relationships.
875
00:40:10.309 --> 00:40:13.869
So I'd say within those, my superpowers have probably been
876
00:40:14.030 --> 00:40:17.380
definitely hiring. I'm really proud of the organization that that
877
00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:19.440
I've built and I can see that in the organizations
878
00:40:19.539 --> 00:40:22.340
that they've built. Like I went from, you know, 12,
879
00:40:22.340 --> 00:40:24.500
15 people, as we were saying a few years ago
880
00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:27.949
and the organizations now, you know, seven, 800 people. And
881
00:40:27.969 --> 00:40:30.949
I'm so proud of everyone that's come on board. I'm
882
00:40:30.969 --> 00:40:34.530
also really great at relationships, right? I'm good at building
883
00:40:34.590 --> 00:40:37.989
trust and connecting with people and being vulnerable and really
884
00:40:38.030 --> 00:40:41.469
learning and understanding like what drives and motivates people and
885
00:40:41.510 --> 00:40:46.309
then allowing them to fulfill their their passions, what drives
886
00:40:46.369 --> 00:40:47.800
them within the work that they're doing.
887
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:51.679
Yeah. And in terms of barriers that you've kind of
888
00:40:51.699 --> 00:40:53.880
come across, especially as a woman of color in leadership,
889
00:40:53.900 --> 00:40:56.380
I know you said that we should definitely talk about this.
890
00:40:57.460 --> 00:41:00.380
What would you say those have kind of manifested as
891
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:02.570
throughout your journey in terms of the barriers that you've
892
00:41:02.610 --> 00:41:07.030
had to either leading people well or even getting to
893
00:41:07.050 --> 00:41:08.210
the positions of leadership?
894
00:41:09.369 --> 00:41:12.550
So there's been things as simple or as ridiculous as
895
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:15.480
You know, and I've been put forth to go do talks,
896
00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:18.119
you know, obviously for some of the work that I do.
897
00:41:18.199 --> 00:41:18.760
Yeah.
898
00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:22.719
Questions coming back to our teams asking, does this person
899
00:41:22.780 --> 00:41:25.030
speak English? Because with her name, it sounds like there
900
00:41:25.050 --> 00:41:28.210
might be an accent issue. So, like, that in itself
901
00:41:28.329 --> 00:41:28.809
has been, like.
902
00:41:28.739 --> 00:41:30.389
… It's so problematic.
903
00:41:30.550 --> 00:41:30.809
Right?
904
00:41:30.889 --> 00:41:34.150
And, like, that's the most basic thing. Even things like that. Like,
905
00:41:34.170 --> 00:41:37.210
there's this advanced assumption that either I don't speak English
906
00:41:37.230 --> 00:41:38.730
or I'm going to have an accent that's not going
907
00:41:38.750 --> 00:41:41.949
to be understood. I'm born and raised in Toronto.
908
00:41:41.969 --> 00:41:42.050
Yeah.
909
00:41:42.489 --> 00:41:44.849
But even if I did, that shouldn't be the issue.
910
00:41:44.949 --> 00:41:47.500
It should be the content, right? If we're all, if
911
00:41:47.539 --> 00:41:50.699
we're building diverse environments where we're really learning about different cultures.
912
00:41:51.260 --> 00:41:53.320
So there's been things as basic as that. But then
913
00:41:53.340 --> 00:41:56.500
there has been, right? Either that assumption that I'm going
914
00:41:56.539 --> 00:42:00.119
to be, that I'm either overly aggressive or overly assertive
915
00:42:00.300 --> 00:42:02.440
because I'm a woman in leadership and we must have
916
00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:04.889
had to have been like a super bitch to get
917
00:42:04.949 --> 00:42:05.590
ourselves there.
918
00:42:05.610 --> 00:42:06.429
A hundred percent.
919
00:42:06.510 --> 00:42:11.750
Or again, in the way that I've chosen to lead. vulnerability, authenticity,
920
00:42:11.829 --> 00:42:15.030
building really great high-performing teams, not just trying to be
921
00:42:15.050 --> 00:42:18.170
the loudest person in the room all the time, asking questions.
922
00:42:18.889 --> 00:42:21.670
That can, of course, if you've got a super aggressive
923
00:42:21.789 --> 00:42:25.530
A type of leader or environment of leaders, then that
924
00:42:25.570 --> 00:42:27.739
can kind of come off as like, well, that person's
925
00:42:27.820 --> 00:42:31.219
not opinionated enough. They don't know what they're doing. We
926
00:42:31.260 --> 00:42:32.940
just need people who are just going to run and
927
00:42:32.980 --> 00:42:35.710
make decisions. It's not the right way to build an organization,
928
00:42:35.829 --> 00:42:36.510
in my opinion.
929
00:42:36.659 --> 00:42:38.360
Of course. And I think that, I mean, it all
930
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:41.039
comes back to the types of traits that we attribute
931
00:42:41.079 --> 00:42:42.579
to leaders are the same types of traits that we
932
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:46.500
attribute to men. Like, as in, like, that's... It's systemic. It's, like,
933
00:42:46.539 --> 00:42:48.519
part of the way we've, like, we see leadership and
934
00:42:48.539 --> 00:42:51.760
we've seen companies being, you know, built and also led.
935
00:42:52.019 --> 00:42:54.929
And therefore, it's always... Like, I almost think that what
936
00:42:54.969 --> 00:42:58.289
we often overlook is that we're not just going for
937
00:42:58.329 --> 00:43:01.190
kind of gender equity in terms of the leadership, but actually...
938
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:05.300
changing our views on leadership in order to be symbiotic
939
00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:07.199
with different traits that you kind.
940
00:43:07.070 --> 00:43:09.789
Of expect yeah yeah absolutely.
941
00:43:09.869 --> 00:43:12.010
There will be so many people who are kind of
942
00:43:12.090 --> 00:43:15.090
going into leadership positions and find themselves in leadership positions
943
00:43:15.130 --> 00:43:18.150
as well because we you know when you move up
944
00:43:18.250 --> 00:43:23.119
through the ranks you are moving up through managerial kind
945
00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:27.559
of settings as well and I feel like we're We're
946
00:43:27.619 --> 00:43:30.219
also not necessarily trained to be leaders or managers. Like
947
00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:32.599
it's almost seen as when you get good at your specialism,
948
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:35.679
you become a people manager. But how are those two things?
949
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:38.840
They're totally different careers. When you move, let's say you're
950
00:43:38.860 --> 00:43:41.619
a salesperson. When you move from salesperson to sales coach,
951
00:43:42.070 --> 00:43:45.789
sales leader, that is a complete change in careers. You
952
00:43:45.829 --> 00:43:48.590
happen to know the craft that you're coaching or leading.
953
00:43:49.710 --> 00:43:52.789
But the craft of leadership is its own craft. And
954
00:43:52.929 --> 00:43:54.820
you're absolutely right. Most people, like I said, I did
955
00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:57.179
that the first time. I didn't realize that that was
956
00:43:57.219 --> 00:43:59.679
what was happening. And so I didn't know how to
957
00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:02.300
make a conscious decision. And so that's actually something that
958
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:04.980
we work on a lot at Shopify is leadership development,
959
00:44:05.300 --> 00:44:07.340
but that includes leadership preparedness.
960
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:09.980
Yeah and I feel like that's a mistake I've made
961
00:44:10.019 --> 00:44:12.340
a lot as well when when building the business here
962
00:44:12.380 --> 00:44:15.199
at Tala is the fact that you know you give
963
00:44:15.500 --> 00:44:17.659
someone a promotion and you're really excited about it because
964
00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:19.530
they're really good at their job but actually if you
965
00:44:19.550 --> 00:44:21.570
don't support them well enough if that's their first step
966
00:44:21.610 --> 00:44:24.610
towards management then it's not setting them up for success
967
00:44:24.650 --> 00:44:26.449
and that is your job as a leader to be
968
00:44:26.489 --> 00:44:28.800
setting them up for success. I feel like it's one
969
00:44:28.820 --> 00:44:30.659
of those ones where you think oh you've got really
970
00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:32.659
good at x which is your job role therefore you
971
00:44:32.679 --> 00:44:35.590
will have you know, someone's coming in underneath you and
972
00:44:35.610 --> 00:44:38.179
you're going to be promoted to manager. And that's really exciting.
973
00:44:38.510 --> 00:44:41.860
But actually, if you haven't defined the parameters for success
974
00:44:41.900 --> 00:44:44.059
for that manager, or even just talk to them about
975
00:44:44.099 --> 00:44:46.800
being like, do you know what, you're 24, you haven't
976
00:44:46.840 --> 00:44:48.760
managed someone yet, this is going to be your first
977
00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:51.510
time doing that. Actually, these are the things that I
978
00:44:51.570 --> 00:44:54.710
found are really important. Lack of kind of mentorship, it
979
00:44:54.730 --> 00:44:56.389
doesn't need to be an official mentor, but just like,
980
00:44:57.199 --> 00:45:00.139
communication with someone who has done that before I think
981
00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:03.550
is so important and definitely something I've overlooked a lot
982
00:45:03.570 --> 00:45:05.409
and has meant that I haven't necessarily set people up
983
00:45:05.449 --> 00:45:07.710
for success when I've been trying to you know I've
984
00:45:07.730 --> 00:45:09.829
been trying to promote them and give them something exciting
985
00:45:09.849 --> 00:45:12.530
but actually they have not had the preparation to be
986
00:45:12.550 --> 00:45:14.889
a manager and therefore it's really hard for them to
987
00:45:14.929 --> 00:45:17.190
go from just doing their job to doing their job
988
00:45:17.469 --> 00:45:18.929
and also leading people.
989
00:45:19.170 --> 00:45:21.130
You know it was such a great lesson to have
990
00:45:21.150 --> 00:45:24.210
learned right because I think we're particularly in like high
991
00:45:24.230 --> 00:45:27.809
growth environments we can sometimes default to Just throw them
992
00:45:27.849 --> 00:45:30.349
in the deep end, right? And they'll figure out how
993
00:45:30.369 --> 00:45:32.650
to swim. I actually don't know if that's the right
994
00:45:32.670 --> 00:45:35.070
way to do things when people are switching from IC
995
00:45:35.110 --> 00:45:38.920
to leadership. They do need some support and understanding and prepare.
996
00:45:38.940 --> 00:45:42.340
They need the ring to help support them and keep
997
00:45:42.380 --> 00:45:45.599
them afloat for the first little while. And you're absolutely right.
998
00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:48.000
It's our job to make sure that they do that well, right?
999
00:45:48.039 --> 00:45:50.420
They understand what they're doing, why they're doing it. Because
1000
00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:52.739
I also think it's a really scary spot to be
1001
00:45:53.289 --> 00:45:55.730
when we promote those folks, they were really great at
1002
00:45:55.769 --> 00:45:57.730
the thing that they were doing. And now for a
1003
00:45:57.750 --> 00:45:59.710
little while, they're going to be really bad at this
1004
00:45:59.789 --> 00:46:03.110
new thing. And that in itself can be incredibly difficult
1005
00:46:03.170 --> 00:46:05.409
and really weigh on you emotionally, right? So we have
1006
00:46:05.429 --> 00:46:06.590
to help them through that transition.
1007
00:46:06.590 --> 00:46:09.739
100%. And I want to speak for a second about
1008
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:13.360
women in tech. I'd love to know what you'd say
1009
00:46:13.500 --> 00:46:17.099
to women who are perhaps a little bit afraid of
1010
00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:21.619
going into tech because of the barriers, the kind of boundaries,
1011
00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:24.170
the biases that If you could speak to someone right
1012
00:46:24.210 --> 00:46:26.170
now who was kind of thinking of going down that path,
1013
00:46:26.210 --> 00:46:27.909
but was probably a little bit worried, what would you
1014
00:46:28.190 --> 00:46:28.630
say to them?
1015
00:46:29.690 --> 00:46:32.789
We need you, right? And we talk about this, right?
1016
00:46:33.489 --> 00:46:37.769
If we don't have great diversity in the teams that
1017
00:46:37.809 --> 00:46:40.210
are building the technology, then there'll be bias in the
1018
00:46:40.230 --> 00:46:42.869
technology that gets built, right? It doesn't get built for
1019
00:46:42.889 --> 00:46:46.369
the audiences that we actually intend it for. Like at Shopify,
1020
00:46:46.730 --> 00:46:50.239
you know, We've got an incredibly diverse merchant base that
1021
00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:53.239
is global. You know, it's urban and it's rural. It's
1022
00:46:53.300 --> 00:46:56.360
almost half women. And so if we don't have women
1023
00:46:56.539 --> 00:46:59.289
who are in their building for women entrepreneurs, then we
1024
00:46:59.309 --> 00:47:00.349
won't build the right thing.
1025
00:47:00.610 --> 00:47:00.929
Right.
1026
00:47:01.230 --> 00:47:03.550
And so we absolutely need you. And again, so then
1027
00:47:03.590 --> 00:47:05.630
I'd go back to the advice that my parents gave me,
1028
00:47:05.670 --> 00:47:08.010
which is if it doesn't work out and you figure
1029
00:47:08.070 --> 00:47:10.300
out you hate it, great, then go do something else.
1030
00:47:10.739 --> 00:47:12.380
But I would always say, just give it a shot
1031
00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:14.900
because you don't know the impact you could actually have.
1032
00:47:15.650 --> 00:47:18.010
And the kind of learning there is in tech, right,
1033
00:47:18.050 --> 00:47:20.840
to be had. It's so much fun when you're in
1034
00:47:20.860 --> 00:47:22.639
an environment where you get to really build and shape
1035
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:26.059
something and then see how it impacts a customer, a merchant,
1036
00:47:26.099 --> 00:47:27.320
an entrepreneur on the other end.
1037
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:29.480
Yeah, no, I think that's so valuable. And also what
1038
00:47:29.500 --> 00:47:32.239
you said earlier about kind of what's your bigger goal?
1039
00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:35.219
One of the best things about that, I guess, despite
1040
00:47:35.260 --> 00:47:38.670
obviously the statistics being really awful about, you know, women
1041
00:47:38.789 --> 00:47:41.809
in STEM subjects, I think it's what, 23% of people
1042
00:47:41.849 --> 00:47:45.090
work against STEM. a woman, which is really quite low.
1043
00:47:45.190 --> 00:47:48.750
I think one of the amazing things about then deciding
1044
00:47:48.789 --> 00:47:51.190
to go into tech as a woman or, you know,
1045
00:47:51.289 --> 00:47:53.670
any of the other areas of STEM is that as
1046
00:47:53.730 --> 00:47:56.449
well as you doing your everyday job, you also get
1047
00:47:56.510 --> 00:48:00.199
to pave the way for other people who kind of
1048
00:48:00.260 --> 00:48:02.420
want to go into that. And I think that as
1049
00:48:02.460 --> 00:48:06.599
much as that shouldn't be each individual person's battle to fight,
1050
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:08.880
it's also really valuable in being able to be like,
1051
00:48:08.900 --> 00:48:11.769
do you know what? completely right. It might not work,
1052
00:48:12.170 --> 00:48:14.250
but actually you get to try and you get to
1053
00:48:14.309 --> 00:48:16.889
try and do something that really makes a difference. And
1054
00:48:17.449 --> 00:48:19.650
who knows someone below you might see that even just
1055
00:48:19.670 --> 00:48:21.050
for one day and think, do you know what I
1056
00:48:21.090 --> 00:48:21.570
can get there?
1057
00:48:22.090 --> 00:48:25.110
Absolutely. I'd say it's the same way that I went
1058
00:48:25.130 --> 00:48:28.070
and I tried social work and you went for me,
1059
00:48:28.389 --> 00:48:29.750
that was the thing that was too hard.
1060
00:48:30.309 --> 00:48:30.489
Right.
1061
00:48:30.550 --> 00:48:32.050
And I knew that it's going to be for someone else,
1062
00:48:32.070 --> 00:48:33.789
but at least I tried it. So I'd say the
1063
00:48:33.829 --> 00:48:35.849
same to women, right? Like they shouldn't beat themselves up
1064
00:48:35.909 --> 00:48:37.949
if they got to tech and realize it is just
1065
00:48:39.019 --> 00:48:41.219
not the right environment for them, but at least they
1066
00:48:41.239 --> 00:48:44.960
will have tried, right? And for me, I'm the one
1067
00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:46.699
that realized that my life's work is going to be
1068
00:48:46.739 --> 00:48:48.559
to widen the road for, right? So now I can
1069
00:48:48.619 --> 00:48:50.900
focus on how do we ensure that we've created the
1070
00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:53.480
right environment and space for more women to enter, to
1071
00:48:53.539 --> 00:48:56.820
choose tech, to choose sales, you know, and other revenue
1072
00:48:56.840 --> 00:48:59.699
and commercial kinds of careers, and then to be able
1073
00:48:59.739 --> 00:49:02.789
to progress and see success in whatever that means for them.
1074
00:49:03.329 --> 00:49:05.650
Yeah, no, I think that's really, really important. And when
1075
00:49:05.710 --> 00:49:08.469
you switch to tech, Did any of those kind of
1076
00:49:08.550 --> 00:49:13.219
fears about that gender disparity kind of realize themselves in
1077
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:16.619
any way in terms of the lack of people there
1078
00:49:16.750 --> 00:49:17.849
or the way you were treated?
1079
00:49:17.869 --> 00:49:20.820
I actually have to say... and maybe this is the
1080
00:49:20.860 --> 00:49:24.210
reason why I've had the success I have, that I've
1081
00:49:24.230 --> 00:49:26.849
been actually incredibly blessed to be in a couple of
1082
00:49:26.949 --> 00:49:27.909
great environments.
1083
00:49:27.989 --> 00:49:28.190
Right.
1084
00:49:28.510 --> 00:49:34.420
You was based in Berlin, and they'd actually built a
1085
00:49:35.099 --> 00:49:40.000
young global organization that was based in Berlin, like literally
1086
00:49:40.039 --> 00:49:41.480
from every part of the world. And so we had
1087
00:49:41.500 --> 00:49:45.820
a really fun, young, dynamic, incredibly diverse environment, which made
1088
00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:48.260
it a little bit easier, again, to start to see
1089
00:49:48.280 --> 00:49:50.530
your way through all of that. And then when I
1090
00:49:50.570 --> 00:49:53.170
got to Shopify, I was telling you, right, I came
1091
00:49:53.210 --> 00:49:55.650
here because I fell in love with the people. Like
1092
00:49:55.670 --> 00:49:59.449
the guy that hired me, Mark Bergen, who's been my
1093
00:49:59.469 --> 00:50:02.739
boss actually almost for six years now is easily the
1094
00:50:02.780 --> 00:50:06.260
best leader I've ever met. He leads with empathy and vulnerability.
1095
00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:09.260
And I saw in him actually the kind of leader
1096
00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:10.300
that I wanted to become.
1097
00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:11.019
Right.
1098
00:50:11.059 --> 00:50:13.500
And then Lauren Paddleford, you know, who was leading Shopify
1099
00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:17.090
plus at the time was like a phenomenal leader and
1100
00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:21.369
knew how to really motivate a team, but led with
1101
00:50:21.409 --> 00:50:24.070
a lot of softness and empathy when he was talking
1102
00:50:24.090 --> 00:50:27.309
to you one-on-one and both of them have been incredible
1103
00:50:27.349 --> 00:50:30.460
champions and And allies for me. So I've ended up
1104
00:50:30.500 --> 00:50:34.699
actually with really great supporters and allies in my journey,
1105
00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:37.019
which has probably made it a little bit easier for me, right?
1106
00:50:37.059 --> 00:50:39.139
So if there's anything I would say to women is
1107
00:50:39.179 --> 00:50:42.079
when you do choose an environment, try your best to
1108
00:50:42.139 --> 00:50:44.739
also choose the people you're going to work with. Because
1109
00:50:45.590 --> 00:50:48.590
what you're going to need likely is really awesome people
1110
00:50:48.630 --> 00:50:51.690
who are supporters, who are allies for you that you
1111
00:50:51.730 --> 00:50:54.889
can be around, right? And I found that there were mentors, supporters,
1112
00:50:54.989 --> 00:50:57.210
allies that I've actually been able to surround myself with.
1113
00:50:57.849 --> 00:51:00.730
And you said that what you're kind of trying to
1114
00:51:00.769 --> 00:51:03.389
create is very much a space where women feel like
1115
00:51:03.469 --> 00:51:06.150
they can come into and they're not going to be
1116
00:51:06.449 --> 00:51:08.070
othered in any way and they're going to feel like
1117
00:51:08.119 --> 00:51:09.760
they can progress in the same way as anyone else.
1118
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:13.920
How can that type of environment be created in the workspace?
1119
00:51:14.380 --> 00:51:16.860
It all starts with, like I said, the people and
1120
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:20.650
the values and the characters, right? And so Mark Bergen
1121
00:51:20.690 --> 00:51:23.590
and I, as we started originally building the sales organization
1122
00:51:23.630 --> 00:51:26.760
for Shopify Plus, We were very adamant that we weren't
1123
00:51:26.780 --> 00:51:30.199
just going to find quota crushing, like give me my
1124
00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:34.119
number and leave me alone salespeople. We intentionally made a
1125
00:51:34.179 --> 00:51:36.860
decision that we were going to find really great people
1126
00:51:36.889 --> 00:51:39.969
of high integrity who wanted to be customer focused, who
1127
00:51:40.010 --> 00:51:42.829
wanted to be in a team environment. And so we
1128
00:51:42.889 --> 00:51:45.969
hired for that, which means we looked for good humans everywhere.
1129
00:51:46.400 --> 00:51:46.559
Right.
1130
00:51:46.599 --> 00:51:48.619
And we looked for team players and we looked for
1131
00:51:48.659 --> 00:51:50.909
people that wanted to better each other. We looked for
1132
00:51:50.949 --> 00:51:53.989
people that we knew were going to become allies for
1133
00:51:54.030 --> 00:51:55.909
each other and want to create the right environment for
1134
00:51:55.929 --> 00:51:58.750
each other. You have to start with the right ingredients
1135
00:51:58.789 --> 00:52:00.469
if you're going to get the right result at the end,
1136
00:52:00.530 --> 00:52:03.570
which is a great environment for women or any underrepresented
1137
00:52:03.590 --> 00:52:05.780
group to be able to work. You have to start
1138
00:52:05.820 --> 00:52:09.260
with building it from scratch. And the mistake I think
1139
00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:12.900
that often can be made, particularly in hyper growth, is
1140
00:52:12.940 --> 00:52:14.900
like we just need to get bums in seats. So
1141
00:52:14.909 --> 00:52:17.760
you start to let your standards fall a little bit
1142
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:21.079
because you just need the people in seat. And where
1143
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:23.619
I think that we did well early is we actually didn't,
1144
00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:26.960
we never lowered our standards, right? Because sometimes you can
1145
00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:28.719
say it's like, okay, just need the people in seat now.
1146
00:52:28.739 --> 00:52:31.340
And then we'll get to diversity later, right? We'll solve
1147
00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:34.050
for that next year. It'll be harder later than it
1148
00:52:34.130 --> 00:52:34.469
is now.
1149
00:52:34.630 --> 00:52:34.949
Yeah.
1150
00:52:35.320 --> 00:52:38.030
So start now, start early, and then you can actually
1151
00:52:38.070 --> 00:52:39.170
build the right environment.
1152
00:52:39.329 --> 00:52:41.329
And how would you say for people to practically trying
1153
00:52:41.349 --> 00:52:44.389
to grow very fast and get people in those roles?
1154
00:52:44.530 --> 00:52:46.789
How would you, because often, right, it's really hard to
1155
00:52:46.829 --> 00:52:48.889
find the right person for a role. And at some point,
1156
00:52:49.010 --> 00:52:51.340
you know, once it's been three months of not finding someone,
1157
00:52:51.440 --> 00:52:54.699
it gets difficult. How would you recommend that people prioritize
1158
00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:58.719
both diversity and getting people in the roles while they're
1159
00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:00.679
kind of vacant and you need to be growing fast?
1160
00:53:01.190 --> 00:53:06.710
I work really closely with our talent acquisition organization and partners.
1161
00:53:07.349 --> 00:53:09.690
And when we've sat down and like I said, when
1162
00:53:09.730 --> 00:53:12.489
I was trying to build my SLT, myself and Luke,
1163
00:53:12.530 --> 00:53:14.829
who was my talent acquisition partner at the time, he
1164
00:53:14.889 --> 00:53:16.739
and I had a really great conversation of what my
1165
00:53:16.780 --> 00:53:19.820
intention was for the kind of organization I wanted to build.
1166
00:53:20.179 --> 00:53:22.280
What I was looking for in my SLT is like, Luke,
1167
00:53:22.300 --> 00:53:26.800
when we're done hiring these 10, 12 people, this is
1168
00:53:26.820 --> 00:53:28.800
what I'd like the result to be. And so he
1169
00:53:28.820 --> 00:53:31.619
and I went on that journey together, which means that
1170
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:35.650
he spent a lot of time tapping into networks that
1171
00:53:35.710 --> 00:53:38.650
were maybe non-traditional. He spent a lot of time in
1172
00:53:38.769 --> 00:53:43.070
sourcing versus solely just taking in applications because applications, particularly
1173
00:53:43.110 --> 00:53:46.610
in tech, tend to be just white male driven because
1174
00:53:46.630 --> 00:53:48.389
not a lot of women are coming in or people
1175
00:53:48.429 --> 00:53:50.800
of color. So we spent a lot of time with
1176
00:53:50.860 --> 00:53:53.440
intentional sourcing in a lot of places. We tapped into
1177
00:53:53.500 --> 00:53:57.039
networks and communities that we wouldn't look for. And once again,
1178
00:53:57.260 --> 00:54:00.280
we weren't necessarily always looking for just the perfect experience.
1179
00:54:00.789 --> 00:54:03.590
I was looking first for character integrity and culture add,
1180
00:54:03.989 --> 00:54:06.329
and then also a skill set that I wanted to
1181
00:54:06.369 --> 00:54:09.630
work with. So it's intention upfront as to what we
1182
00:54:09.670 --> 00:54:12.710
were going to build together, a lot of sourcing and
1183
00:54:12.750 --> 00:54:14.969
a lot of tapping into communities and areas that we,
1184
00:54:16.269 --> 00:54:19.050
that wouldn't naturally happen. And just not, we weren't hiring
1185
00:54:19.090 --> 00:54:20.409
just by application. Yeah.
1186
00:54:20.449 --> 00:54:22.269
And I think that is so, so, so important. And
1187
00:54:22.289 --> 00:54:24.670
it's just kind of showing it's, it's not too difficult.
1188
00:54:24.789 --> 00:54:26.510
It's just about the way you do it and having
1189
00:54:26.550 --> 00:54:29.780
that inherent in your hiring process makes it just makes
1190
00:54:29.800 --> 00:54:30.099
it happen.
1191
00:54:30.550 --> 00:54:32.550
Your interview process as well. We made sure there was
1192
00:54:32.570 --> 00:54:36.150
diversity on the interview panels, right? So we ensured that
1193
00:54:36.170 --> 00:54:39.650
we were bringing lots of different personality types, different genders,
1194
00:54:39.690 --> 00:54:41.170
all of that to the panel so that we didn't
1195
00:54:41.250 --> 00:54:44.840
insert Pius into how we assess people and brought them in.
1196
00:54:44.820 --> 00:54:47.530
100% and so, so, so important. I want to do
1197
00:54:47.570 --> 00:54:49.449
a little section on side hustles.
1198
00:54:49.650 --> 00:54:49.929
Sure.
1199
00:54:50.210 --> 00:54:54.519
I personally started my side hustle with a Shopify plugin.
1200
00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:56.219
I mean, that did great things for me. That was
1201
00:54:56.260 --> 00:54:58.079
actually the only way I was able to kind of
1202
00:54:58.119 --> 00:54:59.469
get up and running so quickly. It was about a
1203
00:54:59.469 --> 00:55:03.570
12-hour process from inception to actual launch. So I wanted to...
1204
00:55:06.059 --> 00:55:08.139
I've asked people on Instagram to kind of send in
1205
00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:11.730
their questions in terms of starting their side hustles, anything
1206
00:55:11.769 --> 00:55:15.730
kind of around that. Firstly, to ask what you recommend
1207
00:55:15.829 --> 00:55:19.360
for people wanting to start their side hustles now with
1208
00:55:19.380 --> 00:55:21.920
the presence of platforms such as Shopify. I mean, it
1209
00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:25.139
makes it so easy in so many ways. And I'd
1210
00:55:25.159 --> 00:55:26.340
love to hear your advice for that.
1211
00:55:26.679 --> 00:55:30.650
Sure. In fact, I was just at London Business School yesterday. Uh,
1212
00:55:30.900 --> 00:55:33.280
and they actually had a global conference where they brought
1213
00:55:33.320 --> 00:55:35.750
in professors from around the world in Seattle and Harvard
1214
00:55:35.789 --> 00:55:39.090
and all of that talking specifically about entrepreneurship and business.
1215
00:55:39.769 --> 00:55:42.289
I was leading a panel with a couple of our merchants,
1216
00:55:42.349 --> 00:55:46.710
both women of color on Shopify and no code entrepreneurship
1217
00:55:46.750 --> 00:55:51.219
and how it can empower entrepreneurship, particularly for underrepresented groups
1218
00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:53.039
where it's so difficult to get funding.
1219
00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:53.199
Right.
1220
00:55:53.219 --> 00:55:55.969
We know women get like 2% of VC funding. And
1221
00:55:56.010 --> 00:55:58.460
so this is where I'm really proud is that Shopify
1222
00:55:58.519 --> 00:56:01.079
actually does make it easy, like you just said, 12
1223
00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:03.659
hours to get your store up and running. So we
1224
00:56:03.719 --> 00:56:08.400
had Rosh with us who runs Aligari Jewelry, and she
1225
00:56:08.440 --> 00:56:11.570
started her company eight and a half years ago. Again,
1226
00:56:11.670 --> 00:56:14.150
out of her parents' home. She had studied French and
1227
00:56:14.670 --> 00:56:19.130
Italian literature in school, realized she was unemployable. And wanted
1228
00:56:19.150 --> 00:56:21.210
to start a business. And she was easily able to,
1229
00:56:21.230 --> 00:56:24.050
like with her brother's help, figure out how to, you know,
1230
00:56:24.389 --> 00:56:27.400
like build a Shopify store and start to figure out
1231
00:56:27.420 --> 00:56:30.179
how she could, you know, develop and create this jewelry.
1232
00:56:30.199 --> 00:56:32.059
She took a class in order to do that and
1233
00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:35.420
really just started to build from there. As well as
1234
00:56:35.579 --> 00:56:41.449
Omolola Jewelry, two young Nigerian sisters, again in the London area,
1235
00:56:41.510 --> 00:56:44.989
who started Omolola actually as a side hustle. One was
1236
00:56:45.010 --> 00:56:47.489
studying her PhD in law. One was a speech pathologist,
1237
00:56:47.530 --> 00:56:50.380
I think. And they decided that they wanted to sell
1238
00:56:50.519 --> 00:56:54.159
African-inspired jewelry to connect with their community as a side hustle.
1239
00:56:54.420 --> 00:56:58.059
And they started it with 200 bucks and absolutely no experience.
1240
00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:02.719
And it's actually become their full-time hustle now. And so
1241
00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:06.510
my advice always is, is find a platform and technology
1242
00:57:06.789 --> 00:57:08.730
that allows you to get up and running quickly without
1243
00:57:08.750 --> 00:57:11.769
a ton of expertise needed. I have no technical skills
1244
00:57:11.789 --> 00:57:15.030
whatsoever and I can build a store. Take advantage of
1245
00:57:15.349 --> 00:57:18.820
our 24-7 support. They're there to help as you get going.
1246
00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:21.599
And just start. Because you don't know what's going to
1247
00:57:21.639 --> 00:57:23.760
happen unless you just start and you play with it.
1248
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:25.760
Yeah. There's a book called The Lean Startup for people
1249
00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:27.980
who don't know. And the whole concept around it is
1250
00:57:28.039 --> 00:57:31.489
about getting a minimum viable product out there. your first
1251
00:57:31.550 --> 00:57:34.329
product that can relate to your audience in some way.
1252
00:57:34.409 --> 00:57:36.550
It doesn't need to be your end goal app, it
1253
00:57:36.570 --> 00:57:38.730
doesn't need to be your kind of end goal product,
1254
00:57:38.769 --> 00:57:40.800
whatever it might be, but it's about getting something out
1255
00:57:40.840 --> 00:57:43.519
there that gives you direction in terms of what your
1256
00:57:43.559 --> 00:57:45.920
customer wants, what they respond to, what marketing they like,
1257
00:57:45.980 --> 00:57:48.460
all of that. And I think things like Shopify and
1258
00:57:48.480 --> 00:57:52.840
being able to build it so easily made that minimum
1259
00:57:52.880 --> 00:57:55.949
my minimum viable product was a pdf like it's turned
1260
00:57:56.010 --> 00:57:58.989
into an app now and that obviously took hundreds of
1261
00:57:59.030 --> 00:58:00.769
thousands to build and I never would have been able
1262
00:58:00.789 --> 00:58:02.989
to be at that position at the time but actually
1263
00:58:03.489 --> 00:58:06.199
that took me 50 pounds it took me 50 pounds
1264
00:58:06.440 --> 00:58:10.719
to ask my friend to mock up the pdf to
1265
00:58:10.739 --> 00:58:12.519
make it look nice she was a graphic design student
1266
00:58:12.969 --> 00:58:15.530
And then I built my Shopify site just using a theme.
1267
00:58:15.829 --> 00:58:18.360
And then I downloaded the kind of digital download plugin
1268
00:58:18.610 --> 00:58:22.760
so that every customer who purchased it would get it
1269
00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:25.860
delivered straight to their email. And that was it. That
1270
00:58:25.900 --> 00:58:29.019
was literally it. And I think that minimum viable products
1271
00:58:29.480 --> 00:58:32.539
used to be much harder. And now, even if it's
1272
00:58:32.639 --> 00:58:35.760
just like a quiz to your potential customers, even if
1273
00:58:35.820 --> 00:58:37.980
it's a PDF, even if it like whatever it might be,
1274
00:58:38.460 --> 00:58:41.300
getting that out there as quickly as possible. You never
1275
00:58:41.320 --> 00:58:42.949
want to get out there with your perfect product. And
1276
00:58:42.969 --> 00:58:44.750
if you think it's your perfect product, you launch it
1277
00:58:44.789 --> 00:58:45.150
too late.
1278
00:58:45.190 --> 00:58:48.010
Too late. A hundred percent. I love your story because
1279
00:58:48.050 --> 00:58:50.909
it actually summarizes everything that we're trying to do at Shopify.
1280
00:58:51.380 --> 00:58:55.519
which is remove all the barriers to entry to entrepreneurship.
1281
00:58:55.619 --> 00:58:58.320
And for me, particularly proud that we can do that
1282
00:58:58.340 --> 00:59:02.889
for underrepresented groups. But we've also reduced the cost of
1283
00:59:02.989 --> 00:59:05.429
failure to almost zero. And so there should be no
1284
00:59:05.610 --> 00:59:08.829
fear in starting and giving it a shot. Like you said,
1285
00:59:08.849 --> 00:59:11.980
you started with 50 bucks. Omolola started their business with
1286
00:59:11.980 --> 00:59:15.400
200 bucks. And you can just get going and see
1287
00:59:15.440 --> 00:59:17.239
what happens. And it can be on the side of
1288
00:59:17.280 --> 00:59:19.960
all the things we're already doing. There's no risk to it.
1289
00:59:20.119 --> 00:59:21.980
Well, people always used to say to me, they were like,
1290
00:59:22.019 --> 00:59:23.880
how did you take the leap to start your business?
1291
00:59:23.900 --> 00:59:25.699
And I was like, there was no leap. Like there
1292
00:59:25.739 --> 00:59:27.130
was literally a bit of work getting it up. And
1293
00:59:27.150 --> 00:59:29.969
then it was like, I will be the first person
1294
00:59:29.989 --> 00:59:32.929
to say I struck gold. Like I did. Mine took
1295
00:59:33.010 --> 00:59:36.190
off very quickly. And I'm obviously kind of hugely grateful
1296
00:59:36.210 --> 00:59:37.789
for that. And that won't always be the case. But
1297
00:59:37.829 --> 00:59:40.349
if it hadn't, it would have cost me £ 50. Yes.
1298
00:59:40.630 --> 00:59:42.610
And that's it. And to be able to have access
1299
00:59:42.650 --> 00:59:45.329
to tech like that now... 15 years ago, I mean,
1300
00:59:45.369 --> 00:59:47.650
not even 15 years ago, we would just be, I mean,
1301
00:59:47.670 --> 00:59:50.710
you'd be paying so much for that, which is exactly why,
1302
00:59:50.789 --> 00:59:53.980
especially for diverse founders, that would have been almost impossible.
1303
00:59:54.059 --> 00:59:55.880
Because if we know now how bad the stats are,
1304
00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:59.039
imagine how bad they were 10, 15 years ago. Now
1305
00:59:59.059 --> 01:00:01.219
I want to get some of these questions.
1306
01:00:01.440 --> 01:00:02.000
Sure.
1307
01:00:02.579 --> 01:00:06.429
So literally just the tiniest start, how do I start
1308
01:00:06.489 --> 01:00:10.360
moving forward? onwards from, so this person's on Facebook marketplace
1309
01:00:10.389 --> 01:00:12.579
and she wants to make it a business. So how
1310
01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:15.840
does she take the step to move from Facebook marketplace
1311
01:00:15.940 --> 01:00:18.320
to move to having a, it might be a storefront,
1312
01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:19.380
it might be whatever it might be.
1313
01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:24.159
It really is as simple as go to shopify.com, go
1314
01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:27.269
to start a trial. We do free 14 day trial
1315
01:00:27.329 --> 01:00:29.730
where you can go in, you can figure out how
1316
01:00:29.809 --> 01:00:32.610
to like build and design your site, be able to
1317
01:00:32.650 --> 01:00:35.190
upload pictures of your products, think about the channels that
1318
01:00:35.230 --> 01:00:37.000
you want to connect to, How are you going to
1319
01:00:37.039 --> 01:00:40.639
take payments? We've got 24-7 support that's available when you
1320
01:00:40.679 --> 01:00:43.300
run into any walls and can figure out how to
1321
01:00:43.340 --> 01:00:46.280
move forward. But I think it's really great that the
1322
01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:48.719
person started with a marketplace. That means they've got an
1323
01:00:48.780 --> 01:00:50.889
idea of the products that they want to sell. They
1324
01:00:50.929 --> 01:00:52.449
probably have a little bit of an idea of their
1325
01:00:52.489 --> 01:00:55.550
customer base. And now with Shopify, they can actually start
1326
01:00:55.590 --> 01:00:58.710
to go multi-channel, right? Which is truly now reaching your
1327
01:00:58.730 --> 01:01:02.440
customers wherever they are. And if they've got some demographics,
1328
01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:04.880
they can think about how they're targeting. Where do they
1329
01:01:04.900 --> 01:01:06.980
want to focus on? Who is their customer going to be?
1330
01:01:07.019 --> 01:01:09.219
What is the story they want to tell them? But
1331
01:01:09.820 --> 01:01:11.400
go start a 14-day trial.
1332
01:01:11.619 --> 01:01:15.280
Yeah. And so this person's asked, how do you judge
1333
01:01:15.320 --> 01:01:17.389
with a business if it has the potential to grow,
1334
01:01:17.409 --> 01:01:20.980
to grow? take the next step before taking any big risks?
1335
01:01:21.340 --> 01:01:25.719
This is such a hard question to answer because if
1336
01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:27.559
you and I take a look around at some of
1337
01:01:27.579 --> 01:01:31.219
the businesses that we've seen grow phenomenally over the last
1338
01:01:31.239 --> 01:01:34.010
five or six years, how many of them are just like,
1339
01:01:35.110 --> 01:01:38.889
I didn't know that idea could be such a big thing, right?
1340
01:01:38.949 --> 01:01:42.309
And so I really think that it's, if you really
1341
01:01:42.389 --> 01:01:46.829
believe in the product or the problem that you're trying
1342
01:01:46.869 --> 01:01:51.329
to solve, And that you've got enough feedback. So we
1343
01:01:51.349 --> 01:01:55.369
talked about minimum viable product, but you've got enough feedback
1344
01:01:55.829 --> 01:01:58.489
around like what your product fit is. And you truly
1345
01:01:58.570 --> 01:02:02.159
understand a, who it is you're solving a problem for
1346
01:02:02.380 --> 01:02:05.019
what is the problem you're solving in what way you're
1347
01:02:05.039 --> 01:02:08.019
doing it uniquely. And that you've understood what roadblocks you
1348
01:02:08.039 --> 01:02:10.380
might come up against. Is there another, is it easy
1349
01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:12.550
to duplicate? Is there another competitor that can do it?
1350
01:02:13.110 --> 01:02:15.170
What is the unique story that you want to tell?
1351
01:02:15.849 --> 01:02:16.369
Go for it.
1352
01:02:16.730 --> 01:02:19.369
Yeah. And I think there's two things that I would
1353
01:02:19.409 --> 01:02:21.030
kind of say in response to this question.
1354
01:02:21.050 --> 01:02:21.349
Tell me.
1355
01:02:21.389 --> 01:02:24.789
The first would be minimum viable product and actually just
1356
01:02:24.829 --> 01:02:28.480
getting as much information on your kind of customer and
1357
01:02:28.539 --> 01:02:32.179
what they want as physically possible. And then also just
1358
01:02:32.539 --> 01:02:35.239
trying it, just kind of like whatever it might be,
1359
01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:37.829
get it out there, suss it out. And then I'd
1360
01:02:37.869 --> 01:02:40.179
say in terms of scalability as a whole, the really
1361
01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:43.079
clear pointers to whether something is scalable is whether it's
1362
01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:46.219
restricted by your time. So for example, something artisanal will
1363
01:02:46.530 --> 01:02:50.570
be limited in its scalability. You absolutely can get multiple
1364
01:02:50.610 --> 01:02:52.369
other people to be making it. It's going to be
1365
01:02:52.409 --> 01:02:55.650
slower at scaling than something that can be mass produced
1366
01:02:55.690 --> 01:02:58.050
on a larger level or that's digital that's tech based
1367
01:02:58.150 --> 01:03:01.659
any of these things but actually thinking how much does
1368
01:03:01.760 --> 01:03:03.559
my the amount of time I can give to this
1369
01:03:03.679 --> 01:03:05.639
limit its growth not in terms of you working on
1370
01:03:05.760 --> 01:03:07.659
the business but in terms of the actual product being
1371
01:03:07.699 --> 01:03:10.480
created for each extra one it also I think is
1372
01:03:10.539 --> 01:03:12.920
really valuable is knowing what type of business you want
1373
01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:15.860
to build because not everyone is suited to building a
1374
01:03:15.880 --> 01:03:17.760
big business not everyone is suited to having a small
1375
01:03:17.780 --> 01:03:21.429
lifestyle business and actually deciphering how scalable do you want
1376
01:03:21.489 --> 01:03:23.760
it to be Because at the same time, if something
1377
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:25.400
you're not going to be able to keep up with
1378
01:03:25.420 --> 01:03:27.079
the demand and you do want it to be smaller
1379
01:03:27.159 --> 01:03:29.059
and more artisanal or whatever it might be, I think
1380
01:03:29.099 --> 01:03:30.320
that's really valuable to know too.
1381
01:03:30.920 --> 01:03:34.699
Yeah. Funny story. As you were talking, I realized I've
1382
01:03:34.719 --> 01:03:37.000
been through this exact thing. About 10 years ago, I
1383
01:03:37.039 --> 01:03:38.139
started a side hustle.
1384
01:03:38.300 --> 01:03:38.659
Really?
1385
01:03:39.159 --> 01:03:42.699
I was an excellent baker growing up. And everyone always
1386
01:03:42.739 --> 01:03:44.610
had told me, like, Shimona, you really should be doing
1387
01:03:44.630 --> 01:03:47.750
this as a business. And so I finally decided to start.
1388
01:03:47.829 --> 01:03:50.239
I did it as a side hustle. I had some
1389
01:03:50.280 --> 01:03:53.079
corporate accounts. I was doing like wedding showers and like
1390
01:03:53.119 --> 01:03:56.650
corporate accounts, like cheesecakes. And at that time, the cupcake
1391
01:03:56.670 --> 01:03:58.170
thing had just started. So I was doing a lot
1392
01:03:58.190 --> 01:04:00.389
of cupcakes. It was called Sugar Mama.
1393
01:04:00.409 --> 01:04:01.710
Love that.
1394
01:04:01.849 --> 01:04:02.050
Oh, yeah.
1395
01:04:02.070 --> 01:04:04.849
It was so much fun. But I hit the exact
1396
01:04:04.909 --> 01:04:06.909
wall that you were talking about. I was like, there's
1397
01:04:06.949 --> 01:04:09.070
a point at which I'm either going to have to
1398
01:04:09.110 --> 01:04:13.800
make a massive investment into OpEx and like kitchens and
1399
01:04:13.920 --> 01:04:17.940
staff because it's either me and my effort solely or
1400
01:04:17.960 --> 01:04:21.380
a really big... like enterprise. And that was actually the
1401
01:04:21.420 --> 01:04:23.199
moment that I made the decision that for me, the
1402
01:04:23.239 --> 01:04:25.340
risk wasn't worth it. Right. I didn't want it to
1403
01:04:25.380 --> 01:04:27.719
take up all of my time and I wasn't ready
1404
01:04:27.739 --> 01:04:30.429
to put in all of that investment into something that
1405
01:04:30.610 --> 01:04:31.670
could just be a fad.
1406
01:04:31.730 --> 01:04:31.869
Right.
1407
01:04:31.909 --> 01:04:34.070
When was cupcakes at the time. And so for me,
1408
01:04:34.090 --> 01:04:36.610
I ran into that exact same scalability while you talked about.
1409
01:04:36.769 --> 01:04:39.849
Yeah, I know. I absolutely love that. So this person's asked,
1410
01:04:40.030 --> 01:04:42.869
how do I overcome the fear of failure in knowing
1411
01:04:42.889 --> 01:04:45.030
whether to turn my side hustle into a full business?
1412
01:04:45.809 --> 01:04:46.829
One foot in front of the other.
1413
01:04:47.639 --> 01:04:47.840
Right.
1414
01:04:47.960 --> 01:04:51.400
I think I've done this myself where I've psyched myself
1415
01:04:51.579 --> 01:04:53.940
out sometimes when I start to look too many steps
1416
01:04:54.000 --> 01:04:59.650
ahead to like, I'm going to have X position or
1417
01:04:59.670 --> 01:05:01.489
I'm going to build X size business or I'm going
1418
01:05:01.510 --> 01:05:05.230
to have X impact in the world. I get very overwhelmed. Right.
1419
01:05:05.289 --> 01:05:07.170
And so even though that might be sitting out there
1420
01:05:07.230 --> 01:05:09.949
somewhere for me, it actually needs to start with like
1421
01:05:10.829 --> 01:05:12.889
to make it actionable and to not freeze myself. I
1422
01:05:12.929 --> 01:05:14.510
got to focus one foot in front of the other,
1423
01:05:14.929 --> 01:05:16.329
one foot in front of the other, one foot in
1424
01:05:16.369 --> 01:05:18.590
front of the other. but also, and this is, I
1425
01:05:18.630 --> 01:05:20.530
know it's hard to internalize and I know we hear it,
1426
01:05:20.650 --> 01:05:22.829
we hear people say it all the time, but failure
1427
01:05:22.849 --> 01:05:25.679
is a part of success. And the faster that we
1428
01:05:25.920 --> 01:05:28.900
as business people, as entrepreneurs, as anyone get used to
1429
01:05:28.940 --> 01:05:31.920
that and try and get comfortable with that, the failure
1430
01:05:31.960 --> 01:05:34.780
is actually what leads to success. Right. And we won't,
1431
01:05:34.980 --> 01:05:38.699
we haven't seen a single amazing business been built that
1432
01:05:39.179 --> 01:05:42.230
didn't start with their stories around. I like, I heard
1433
01:05:42.369 --> 01:05:47.469
no you know, 872 times before I got the yes, right? So-and-so,
1434
01:05:47.599 --> 01:05:49.420
you know, said they would never invest in me or
1435
01:05:49.460 --> 01:05:51.860
told me this was a stupid idea. Like the guy
1436
01:05:51.880 --> 01:05:54.139
that founded FedEx got a C on that project in
1437
01:05:54.199 --> 01:05:56.539
university and was told it wasn't viable. And now this
1438
01:05:56.619 --> 01:05:59.380
is FedEx today, right? You've heard Steve Jobs talk about
1439
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:03.179
the no's. And anyone who's built anything great has had
1440
01:06:03.239 --> 01:06:06.369
to go through failure And I know like we're, we're
1441
01:06:06.590 --> 01:06:09.590
raised to believe that failure is wrong, right? We grades
1442
01:06:09.659 --> 01:06:12.860
in schools, all of those things. And then as entrepreneurs,
1443
01:06:12.900 --> 01:06:15.739
we actually have to flip that mindset to realize that
1444
01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:19.059
failure is actually a good thing, right? Failure, Toby Luca,
1445
01:06:19.119 --> 01:06:22.829
the CEO of Shopify says this failure is actually just
1446
01:06:22.889 --> 01:06:25.809
the discovery of how we don't want to do it again.
1447
01:06:26.650 --> 01:06:27.269
Right. Great.
1448
01:06:27.349 --> 01:06:27.650
Okay.
1449
01:06:27.670 --> 01:06:29.570
I've discovered one way that's not going to work. What's
1450
01:06:29.610 --> 01:06:32.639
the next way? And so that's actually my advice is
1451
01:06:32.679 --> 01:06:34.659
you're going to have to get comfortable with failure is
1452
01:06:34.719 --> 01:06:37.559
actually the path to success in one foot in front.
1453
01:06:37.440 --> 01:06:40.539
Of the other. Yeah, I think that's really important. And it's,
1454
01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:43.829
I guess, all around the idea that if you're failing,
1455
01:06:43.849 --> 01:06:45.730
then you're doing it right. If you're failing, you're going
1456
01:06:45.750 --> 01:06:48.110
in the right direction. If you're failing, you're showing yourself
1457
01:06:48.530 --> 01:06:50.829
either directions that you don't necessarily want to go. Like
1458
01:06:50.889 --> 01:06:55.150
you cannot expect to set down a path that you
1459
01:06:55.170 --> 01:06:56.989
don't know where that path goes and know that it's
1460
01:06:57.030 --> 01:07:00.039
going to be the right direction. You have to each time...
1461
01:07:00.639 --> 01:07:02.500
you come into an obstacle and it shows you how
1462
01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:04.699
not to do something. I know it sounds so annoying
1463
01:07:04.719 --> 01:07:06.250
when it's like it's a learning experience, but it is.
1464
01:07:06.289 --> 01:07:07.969
You didn't know that until you had that. Like every
1465
01:07:08.010 --> 01:07:11.329
single mistake I've ever made or I've talked about on
1466
01:07:11.369 --> 01:07:15.019
this podcast has been the only opportunity where I would
1467
01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:17.320
have learned that. I think, you know, when I talk
1468
01:07:17.340 --> 01:07:19.079
about the mistakes I've made in terms of hiring or
1469
01:07:19.119 --> 01:07:22.360
leadership or any of these things, I read countless books
1470
01:07:22.380 --> 01:07:25.710
that told me exactly those things before. Like I heard it.
1471
01:07:26.039 --> 01:07:28.960
I knew the whole, like, if it's not a fuck yes,
1472
01:07:29.000 --> 01:07:30.510
then it's a no. Like if it's a, you know,
1473
01:07:30.530 --> 01:07:33.570
like all of these things and still time and time again,
1474
01:07:33.650 --> 01:07:36.250
I made the mistake. Yeah. And like, it's so natural
1475
01:07:36.309 --> 01:07:39.170
and we cannot learn without doing the majority of the time.
1476
01:07:39.210 --> 01:07:41.250
And I still would encourage people to read a lot and,
1477
01:07:41.489 --> 01:07:43.710
you know, when you read a lot and absorb these
1478
01:07:43.730 --> 01:07:46.329
things and people tell you what not to do, you
1479
01:07:46.469 --> 01:07:49.309
probably learn faster after you've made the mistake because you're like,
1480
01:07:49.329 --> 01:07:51.510
I recognize it. I see why this person said this
1481
01:07:51.550 --> 01:07:53.329
and you're able to take their word for it. But
1482
01:07:53.349 --> 01:07:56.320
I really do think that, I mean, as you said,
1483
01:07:56.420 --> 01:07:59.340
you cannot get anywhere without failing. And I also feel
1484
01:07:59.380 --> 01:08:01.320
like you're not pushing the boat out enough if you're
1485
01:08:01.340 --> 01:08:05.400
not failing regularly because fucking hell do I fail every
1486
01:08:05.480 --> 01:08:08.230
single day of the week, at least in one thing.
1487
01:08:08.789 --> 01:08:11.980
And I think that if I wasn't doing that, then
1488
01:08:12.039 --> 01:08:14.619
we wouldn't be going in the direction that we needed
1489
01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:15.119
to be going in.
1490
01:08:15.380 --> 01:08:17.239
If you were doing all the things that you knew
1491
01:08:17.359 --> 01:08:20.100
guaranteed success, that you knew the outcomes of, then you
1492
01:08:20.119 --> 01:08:21.979
would just stay in the same place, right? It wouldn't
1493
01:08:22.020 --> 01:08:24.039
be about growth and stretching into new areas.
1494
01:08:24.279 --> 01:08:24.500
Yeah.
1495
01:08:24.560 --> 01:08:25.779
And I actually think, I'm not going to ask you
1496
01:08:25.800 --> 01:08:27.640
another question. I think that's a really, really good place
1497
01:08:27.659 --> 01:08:30.520
to end. I think that that is so powerful, what
1498
01:08:30.739 --> 01:08:33.210
you've said in terms of failure. And I feel like
1499
01:08:33.310 --> 01:08:35.829
we all need to kind of internalize and think that more.
1500
01:08:35.869 --> 01:08:37.869
But thank you so much for coming on. This has
1501
01:08:37.890 --> 01:08:40.930
been incredibly insightful. I've learned a lot And yeah, I
1502
01:08:40.970 --> 01:08:41.909
really appreciate your time.
1503
01:08:42.229 --> 01:08:44.710
Thanks for having me. I learned a lot too. So
1504
01:08:44.729 --> 01:08:45.960
I really appreciate being.
1505
01:08:45.880 --> 01:08:50.279
A group learning session. Thank you so much. That was great.
1506
01:08:50.319 --> 01:08:50.859
Thank you.
1507
01:08:50.880 --> 01:08:52.520
I really, really, really enjoyed that.
1508
01:09:04.760 --> 01:09:07.460
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