00:00:00
Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Welcome back to work in progress, my DearS. We are in the midst of a vulnerable conversation with Carter Brown, and I'd like to continue down that path, asking some questions that are probably hard to answer, and honestly exercising I'd say my best self. In doing so, We're showing up really vulnerably and patiently, and I appreciate the journey with her, and I appreciate you all for being on it with us. Let's dive back in with Carter. Can I ask something just like, because obviously we're figuring out what sphere of information your former side is operating with, and I'm clearly asking some questions about what you've seen from the sphere of information I get to see, which is probably more than most people. I mean, listen, I went to journalism school, like I'm a news junkie, A I am a believer in community organizing because I think policy is politics, but actually politics are personal, like I can be a little I don't know what the word is excited about the possibility if it isn't corrupt, right, but that's big picture like for us, Steph I'm curious for you. You know, you've you've mentioned your kids, and you've mentioned your husband. How is your deconstruction going in your marriage, because clearly you have been married longer than you've been unpacking these fallacies. Is your husband going along for the ride with you?
00:02:05
Speaker 2: He grew up in a progressive, left leaning home. Oh well, and when we were dating, I remember I asked him.
00:02:13
Speaker 3: Who do you think goes to heaven?
00:02:16
Speaker 2: And he goes everyone and I laughed, and I am so desperately trying to get that man back. I indoctrinated him. He's the one who started questioning Trump before I, and so he and I were really big into the conspiracy thing. And during the pandemic, like you, we both were essential workers, so we went into the office every day. But like it was just like us in our bubble pretty much, you know. And so yeah, that's all we really looked into. And then we got married, and like, I never stopped looking into stuff. And so when I debunked rapture culture, it was really hard for him to like understand where I'm coming from because he's having weekly Bible studies and reading his Bible every night and trying to be the man that he agreed to my father to be as my husband, because when he asked my dad for my hand in marriage, that's when he became a Christian. My dad converted him that day. And you know, he Tyler has seen a lot of like great things that have happened since becoming more disciplined in his relationship with God. But we're both kind of going through it right now. And he actually admitted to me the other day that he's like, I think I'm going through a professional ego death.
00:03:46
Speaker 3: And I was like, we're getting somewhere. This is great.
00:03:52
Speaker 2: But over the last year, basically all of twenty twenty five, it was really rough. I mean, you know, he'd be like, what do you mean you don't believe in hell anymore?
00:04:03
Speaker 3: And it would just I.
00:04:04
Speaker 2: Didn't know how to like defend where I was, to be able to like regurgitate it, and so it just became like explosive and blow up. And you know, he's reading his Bible and I'm not. I'm talking to God more than I'm doing anything like that, and we're just going opposite directions.
00:04:21
Speaker 1: And it's not lost on me that you've had the experience of realizing that the arena of your conviction was maybe not as for good as you were always told, and now you are trying to do some good out of the harm done by that, and so I I think that's why your story is powerful. I also am curious what stories like you mentioned have been powerful to you, Like what are what are the documentaries you've watched with your husband? You know, you mentioned that you saw a documentary last January that really opened your eyes, Like, what are the things that have been helpful in terms of well told stories that help you see what's happening around you?
00:05:10
Speaker 2: So MAGA and evangelical Christianity go like this, and so the House of Cards fell from you and I deep on tell and someone in the comment section put it really like just perfectly.
00:05:22
Speaker 3: They were like.
00:05:24
Speaker 2: Questioning the punishment of the system caused you the system to like crumble essentially. And so it's called eternal theater. You honestly can just listen to it. It's not really visually stimulating.
00:05:39
Speaker 3: You can just be on a tread listen to it.
00:05:41
Speaker 1: You would do it like a podcast.
00:05:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, basically okay, And it I mean lays it out historically, like how Man created this idea and it was form of control and all that, and I mean, it's irrefutable. And then we watched a couple months ago, uh Sins of Our Father, which is made by a twenty sixteen Trump voter, and the whole documentary is about why he's not a voter for Trump anymore. And he grew up in Charleston, and so it was about him like deconstructing all of that and like really showing how the deep racist roots of our country. And before we watched that video, my husband didn't understand why. I felt like, I like, I'll claim it right now. I am a civil rights activist and I will die being a civil rights activist and that's what I want to do and that's who I believe I am. And my husband didn't understand that. And after watching that documentary, the credits rolled and he was like, well, I just learned a lot and I understand why you feel the way that you feel. And we as a country need to heal. Yeah, the highest form of accountability is healing. This is how why our country has not healed. We have not healed after Civil War. We did not heal after like post segregation, like we did not heal collectively. We have not heard black voices in this country to a way that we need to and to piggyback off what you're saying of like how I'm doing this and being able to handle the criticism and not turn and run back or delete my profile or never go back. It's like I'm past that I am on this journey that I know I will never get anything right, like I will always need to have the mirror put in front of me and showing like, hey, this is where you missed the mark.
00:07:51
Speaker 1: And you know you said, like you've woken up to understand what these systems look like. And one of the ways I think about they that oppress so many of us look people are fallible, and people can be horrible, and there are absolutely like racist, sexist monsters among us, people who think rape is funny, people who think communities of color deserve harm. Those people I'm not interested in talking to, but people who want to understand how, even in their subconscious their beliefs or their behaviors might have been shaped by systems, not by their own choice or even by their own awareness. Like that's a conversation I want to have all day. And one of the things that has really been illuminating to me about the systems is to understand how influence they've always been by money, because money is defined for so many as power, and when you see how you know, pre Christian tradition, for example, there was so much sacredness of both both spirits of men and women, the masculine the feminine. There was even the honor of you know, the most demonized people by the evangelicals right now or the trans community, whereas historically two spirit people were thought to have the knowledge of the whole universe, like, oh my God, you are magic because you understand all of it and in every other you know, being or avenue. Two halves have to make a whole. And I don't just mean like you know, how you make a baby, obviously, I mean like spiritually, energetically. And when agriculture, you know, this incredible discovery and invention and expansion of science that could allow us to feed ourselves year around, became about ownership. Cows became property and so did women. And the stain on America of hundreds of years of slavery was a about production. It was about stealing labor. And yes, absolutely influenced by and allowed by and created out of racism and bigotry for people considered other. But like when you really get down to it, and you go, oh, we subjugate everybody for money for money, Like it's so antithetical to every good faith tradition, the metaphors of care, of giving more than you have. It's so crazy, and I think those wake up calls for people. I think seeing stories like you've talked about. I have two things for you guys. You have to watch Origin by Ava du Verne. It is an incredible film she made about Isabelle Wilkerson's work on cast and that's a big eye opener and it's tough, like you actually see how the Nazis based what they did to the Jews in Germany on American Jim Crow laws. Like it's it's bad, but it's important. And Ava, as the legend that she is, manages to tell this story through the lens of the researcher, so you're you're falling in love with this woman and her family and you're learning really hard lessons at the same time. So it is it is indelible. And then there's a researcher I really like because again, you know I mentioned to you and a lot of people who listen to the show know this. Like I always joke my religious upbringing it was just a bunch of cats in a bag. So I like to study all the religions and also people who don't believe in them at all. And there's a there's a writer and a philosopher, Alan de Bauton, who wrote a book called Religion for Atheists, and it is so incredible because it it talks about all the incredible tradition that humans created together that then got co opted by religions as as modern society evolved. And how if we could just hold our traditions the things we need as humans, maybe we wouldn't all be so insane about our religions and we could like make room for them and for other peoples. So I think you'll really like them both. Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. So the question is because you are on the path to it and listen, I do think as hard as it can be to learn in public, I think it is it's like going to grad school instead of being a junior in high school. Like it really so much public access and input can be overwhelming, but it really can teach you so much more quickly. But I my question really revolves around you know, we see people who want to leave it, but they stop short of confronting these these buckets of bigotry, if you will, racism, homophobia, transphobia, you know, sexism even. Why do you think there are folks from your spiritual neck of the woods who want to leave MAGA is a movement, but who don't want to confront those issues that you just talked about. You know, you're confronting your husband's confronting with you. You learn the history, you see the facts, and then you can't deny it anymore. Why do you think people want to stop short of really examining that stuff?
00:13:49
Speaker 3: Because I think they're so wrapped up in their religion.
00:13:53
Speaker 2: You know, I've had some friends that are like, yeah, I'm done with MAGA, but I'm not voting. I'm definitely not voting for people for the blue because they haven't deconstructed that part. They haven't deconstructed that the left is not I don't even like to use left and right anymore. Like people that are against Trump. Here's the thing, y'all caught on to it before we did, and so like, how can how and so that's why I try and like position to the people that are like, no, I'm not getting down with the left.
00:14:24
Speaker 3: There's really no other way to say that.
00:14:26
Speaker 2: And I'm like, but they saw it, like they were able to see it before we, so like, why are we going to discount everything else that they said?
00:14:35
Speaker 3: It's hard for me to know.
00:14:36
Speaker 2: I don't have a blueprint because not everyone's doing it the way that I'm doing it. Not everyone's having the veil lifted the way that I have. Yeah, And so for me, I was able to have conversations really early on with queer people, with parents of children who are transgender, and immigrants, Like I was talking to all these different types of people in my car section in my DMS.
00:15:02
Speaker 1: And I'm like, they're just normal people, you.
00:15:06
Speaker 3: Know, like they're.
00:15:08
Speaker 2: You know, they are who they are because that's who they are, like not because of you know, when you're in Christianity, you think, oh, something happened to them or you know whatever, or.
00:15:24
Speaker 3: And literally like that's what I thought.
00:15:27
Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh go ahead, Well I was just going to say, that's so interesting right that that you were fed the idea that anyone who thought differently than you only thought that because they'd had less of a good life.
00:15:42
Speaker 1: There's so much judgment and ego in.
00:15:45
Speaker 2: That you really underestimate this whole. I'm a chosen one of God that does some f'd up stuff up here because like, and I'll say this to Christians, because here's the thing. I still I found a really great progressive church. It's it's great. Like, I still I believe in a higher power. I just I ain't down with the dogma. I accepted Jesus into my heart when I was four. My oldest daughter is four. There is no way that I could ever sit her down and tell her what was said to me and to have her understand.
00:16:21
Speaker 1: No, she's a baby. She wants to play make believe. It's also really interesting to me, you know, doing my my own work on the faith side. It's funny because sometimes people you know, who come from your former former world will be like, well, you you're like this because you're you know, you're an activist and you love people of color and you're queer and you're and I'm like, I've been this way my whole life. Calmed down, I actually do just love my neighbors, and in an interesting way, I use all the the things I I find solace in from different faith traditions and the study of those spaces and studying theology as like a lens in instead of a lens to exclude. And it's funny how many evangelical people in particular will tell me that I am the way I am because I have no relationship with God, and I'm like, my spirituality is big, but it's also mine. I don't need to advertise it to get you to buy a product I'm selling on Instagram, Like, that's not I don't use it as a brand. And I think the brand, the identity, the ideology, the all of the things that fit into like a that cult mentality that makes it so dangerous to leave makes me, I don't want to say sympathetic to it, but it makes me understand how hard it is for people to get out. I wonder two things, How how you want to try to make amends to people that you know you hurt even without having meant to, and how you want to reach back into that space and try to help other people know they get to come out. So I'm just curious how you are navigating doing both of those things simultaneously.
00:18:22
Speaker 2: So it's Funny you mentioned that, like I wish there was an option where I could like upload to MAGA audience, upload to non Maga audience, right, because it is it's hard to like share my journey, share my perspective, but also.
00:18:40
Speaker 3: Try and cater to everyone.
00:18:43
Speaker 1: Well you can't cater to everyone.
00:18:45
Speaker 2: I know, I know, but like the thing is is, I started posting because I wanted to stop being depressed, and my intuition was like, hey, try this, because I was so against going to therapy or doing anything like that. And so I did that, and then I realized, Okay, I'm not for myself anymore. I'm posting for other people. I'm posting to give them hope, and I'm giving hope to the people that are still in MAGA. Like I didn't even realize what I was doing when I did it, right, It literally was just me trying to show up for my kids better. And so aside from putting myself out there and doing that, I am monetarily giving back. I am meeting with the black candidates in Georgia to help elevate them because I now have a platform. I now have like across two platforms, like fifty thousand followers and I want to figure out what I can do with that right.
00:19:38
Speaker 1: Well, and listen, that's meaningful. I gotta be honest because there are there are women who will listen to you about those candidates who won't listen to me. You know that's not lost on me. Maybe when you say, do you know these abortion bands are killing women? That women are losing their fertility because they're having miss carriages and doctors won't perform dncs and they're literally losing the ability to ever have another baby, like do you? They might not be willing to hear that from me, but they'll hear it from you, And so I do want to encourage like, yes, you said it. You're going to make mistakes, You're not going to be perfect, But I want to encourage you to keep trying and to keep being willing to hear feedback and grow because that stuff matters. You know, we've all got friends who are experiencing these things. Now, you know, we see it, and I know I mean and you've talked about this. I know that the abortion issue, for some reason, it's been made into this kind of boogeyman on the right rather than just treat it as a simple facet of healthcare. That's nobody's business. It's been turned into an issue when for some reason, school shootings and kids being star and all these other things, you know, lack of food stamps, lack of community support don't get through.
00:21:06
Speaker 3: But that does.
00:21:08
Speaker 1: And if someone like you can help crack that facade, it's going to be a really big deal.
00:21:17
Speaker 2: I really do believe people are asking these questions, they're wondering, they're questioning, they've seen they'll tilt down the rose colored glasses every now and again, see the red flags, but then want to put it right back up.
00:21:28
Speaker 3: But that seed of doubt was planted.
00:21:31
Speaker 2: And this is what I really try and impart on people, is like, I really don't think it's not going to be a fact. It's not going to be a statistic, it's not going to be you're getting upset with them or not getting upset with them, like they will only hear the truth when they need to hear the truth, like it will. The truth cannot be told, It could only be realized, and it will only be realized when someone's ready. But I truly do believe what people like you have been doing for the last ten years has been planting seeds of doubt has been you know, making the red flags there and a parent, but the cognitive dissonance has been too strong. But since now everyone like what Trump is saying with this war and what they're telling the troops. But honestly, I'm like, I'm so glad I got out of this before because I can't imagine trying to be a Christian trying to justify Oh, okay, he's planning the armageddon like what.
00:22:25
Speaker 1: It's crazy, it really is. And now a word from our sponsors, Okay, can I ask you a question because that's a really big concept that stresses me out. But you saying like, oh, I'm glad I'm out of this while I'm watching him say these things because it's insane. The concept behind the war is nuts when you hear what they're saying to the troops, but also the way they've gathered this raw, raw sentiment for him as like a commander in chief. The ear incident, the supposed assassination attempt. We all know cartilage doesn't grow back. How is that being talked about in the world you came out of. How like they didn't talk about that? Are they talking about the war and all these crazy Armageddon talking points, like is anything getting through?
00:23:28
Speaker 3: Well?
00:23:28
Speaker 2: For the last three weeks, all they talked about was Nancy Gothrie. That was all anyone talked about. Anyone. All they talked about was Like when I would see people that supported MAGO over the last few weeks, hoping maybe they'd be like, did you hear about the Epstein files? Now this Nancy Guthrie case, it's just so scary, like what is going on? And I remember being like, it's working.
00:23:53
Speaker 1: Looking at it from the outside. Does everything just feel like a distraction tactic? Like y, does everything feel like it's a cat toy to be like look over here and don't pay attention.
00:24:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all that it is, one hundred percent. Like, Okay, I've been meaning to tell you this because I want to see your reaction. I learned about Project twenty twenty five three months ago.
00:24:12
Speaker 1: Oh boy, have you seen Project Esther?
00:24:15
Speaker 3: Yeah?
00:24:17
Speaker 1: It's really bad. It's really bad for us ladies.
00:24:20
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:24:21
Speaker 2: So when I say that, like people literally say like you're lying, you're lying.
00:24:27
Speaker 3: I'm like, why would I lie?
00:24:29
Speaker 1: Now?
00:24:29
Speaker 3: Like why would I lie about?
00:24:31
Speaker 1: Right? Okay? So I have a question because that's insane and I honestly don't know what to say about it.
00:24:36
Speaker 3: I mean not I just it's I get it, like I get it.
00:24:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd literally just hear a kamma in my head being like, you're not hearing me different sets of information. So, okay, you heard about Project twenty twenty five three.
00:24:51
Speaker 3: Months ago and a comment on TikTok oh.
00:24:54
Speaker 1: Boy, there was a big alarm bell, obviously for a lot of us working working up to the twenty twenty four election, especially because for me, I was like, guys, they're not even hiding it, Like they printed their manifesto like a school shooter, Like they straight up are like, this is what I'm going to do, you guys and your families, Like it's so crazy. So the information's not breaking through, no, which then takes me to think, like takes me backwards to think. For you know, you talked about really wanting from here on out to be on the side of civil rights, on the side of you know, making amends for harm and actually doing good. Does anything break through that wall? Does anything break into that evangelical space for racial disparity or racial justice?
00:25:53
Speaker 2: So I remember it was like ten years ago, and this was when I left and I was dating this black guy, a son of two Nigerian immigrants, and so he like sort of educating me on things. And there was this this KKK rally at Stone Mountain, Georgia, and it was like this huge thing and it was on the news, and I remember like making a post about it on my Facebook being like, this is horrible. I can't believe this is still happening. Blah blah blah. And people in my life were calling me and messaging me and be like, you need to take that down, like you're repeating misinformation, like you the amount of white on black crime is dis like, it's fake news, it's not real, Like you're yeah, wow, yeah wow.
00:26:49
Speaker 1: So not only is a lot of the actual news not breaking through, but when something does, you get told it's not real.
00:26:57
Speaker 2: There's a whole sect of people within that support MAGA that literally thinks.
00:27:06
Speaker 3: That school shootings are fake, that everything is.
00:27:17
Speaker 2: Everything's planned, and to like distract you and to harness your energy, like it's.
00:27:25
Speaker 3: It's scary to leave, to like.
00:27:28
Speaker 2: Think that there are people that still think that way, right, And I think the reason why I stopped paying attention to all that stuff is because it started to seep into me and being like, Okay, maybe it is all fakes.
00:27:41
Speaker 3: Maybe it is all like.
00:27:44
Speaker 2: This whole idea of like focusing on your family, this traditional family unit, being a tradwife and all this like don't don't turn the news on. That's just going to cause anxiety and stress in your life and it's going to creep into how you raise your kids. And your kids should just be in this perfect bubble and not hearing anything.
00:28:00
Speaker 1: And right, because if you, as a woman, are informed, you might start to change your mind about being unpaid labor for the system that all of this plays into. You might not like the fact that everything falls on your shoulders and that you're supposed to be docile and subservient and all the things.
00:28:25
Speaker 2: I mean, there's literally people that are like, oh, that's so weird. Glene Maxwell's in prison and no one else.
00:28:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's in prison. Christy GNOME's the only one who's been fired. And that's part of it for me, right, is like on my end of the information spectrum, sometimes I want to shake people and be like, do you not understand that carrying water for a white supremacist patriarchy will never benefit you? But I think but.
00:28:53
Speaker 3: Those words are so triggering for them. I know.
00:28:55
Speaker 1: I can't hear that.
00:28:57
Speaker 2: I know, and this is so one thing I wanted to when you were talking about giving back. So there's this organization called Leaving Maga and it was a once Trump supporter. He left, he woke up and he created this organization. It was really great. It's honestly like a I think once it gets large enough, it's going to be a great place for people to like softly land when they leave MAGA. But right now, there's it's just small. There's just a very small amount of us. And I remember asking him, like, what are your what are your thoughts on the word cult. He's like, we really try and stray away from that. And I get it. I get why, because like, there's no I remember when I first started thinking like it was a cult, and I remember being like, oh, this is so uncomfortable. But now I'm like, yeah, it's cool, it's cool. I grew up in fear based control and doctrination. Like I just now can say all that, like it not trigger me in any type of way. But like other people, they cannot hear that, They cannot hear.
00:29:56
Speaker 1: That well, And I think that's the hard thing can be. The hard thing is when you know something, and when you know the thing causes so much hurt. It's hard to be patient with people who don't know yet because rightfully so, you're like, how could you not know this? How could you not be paying attention.
00:30:16
Speaker 2: I can't imagine the ten years like I've had three months, and I'm like, oh, this is terrible.
00:30:21
Speaker 1: People always say the only way out is through, but like the only way you're going to get through is if you figure out how to harness a little bit of grace.
00:30:29
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:30:29
Speaker 2: I keep on using the analogy that I'm a buffalo, like I'm just going through the storm and running through it instead of waiting it out, because that's yeah.
00:30:38
Speaker 3: I feel like I've waited it out my whole life.
00:30:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you stop again, you might get stuck again. Yeah, and now a word from our wonderful sponsors so you can reflect back on your life. And then you've also spoken about how this is going to be a lifelong process, and you know that, I'm curious what you're most looking forward to in the journey that you know is ahead.
00:31:19
Speaker 3: The first word that came to my mind was peace. Somehow I.
00:31:25
Speaker 2: Feel with every fiber of my being, all the way down to my pinky toes. The change is happening, Change will happen. The hope that I feel in my soul isn't for nothing. And the people that I've locked arms with in this journey, they all feel that hope too, despite it being like what the f is are we going to wake up to today? But for some reason, I feel so hopeful that this somehow turns around, that people wake up, that the collective wake up, like something in me was so desperate for change, and I believe that that soul awakening will happen for everyone. And it's not it's not your job to try and wake them up. It's their own job. Your job is to.
00:32:24
Speaker 3: If you have the capacity to do so.
00:32:26
Speaker 2: Because I know so many people are like, I'm done with MAGA, especially the I learned the black community is like we're done, We're done.
00:32:32
Speaker 3: After twenty twenty four. They were like, white people, it's you.
00:32:35
Speaker 2: And that's what I'm realizing is and why so many white people have reached out to me to help me and all this is because the black community is like it, we're not doing this anymore.
00:32:43
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you admitting that is important for other people to hear because it's not It's not a reality that means don't try. It's a reality that means I'm I'm going to continue to try, and hopefully eventually you will know you're a person who can trust me. And I think that's the more elevated work. That's how we act like adults and not like our dear toddlers.
00:33:13
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:33:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so aware that trust is earned for sure. I mean, and I joke, I would be out on no man's land for however long I needed to in order to feel accepted, like I would rather have no one then whatever I came from.
00:33:34
Speaker 1: That's really powerful when you think about what's ahead in your journey, because we're talking about big concepts right and service and how to shift culture and how hopefully to win elections so we can have policy that helps people instead of hurts people. And then you've also got your life, if your marriage, your children. I don't know if it's in the grand scheme or really granular at home, but what feels like you're work in progress.
00:34:09
Speaker 2: Right now, my soul. I'm told all the time, I grew up the same way you did, and I saw through it.
00:34:21
Speaker 3: And noah da da dah.
00:34:22
Speaker 2: And I'm like, that was your path and this is mine. And I've accepted that my soul is a work in progress in all of this because.
00:34:39
Speaker 3: I don't I don't.
00:34:41
Speaker 2: Ever want to get to a point where I'm like, I'm good with what I'm done. I don't need to learn anymore. I don't need to change anymore. I don't need to adapt anymore. I don't need to reconsider anything anymore. I'm not I will.
00:34:52
Speaker 3: Never get to that.
00:34:54
Speaker 2: I am committed to learning how to be better every single day.
00:34:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's something I'm excited about.
00:35:03
Speaker 2: Like, like I said, the hope that I have, Like it's just this weird feeling of like, yes, we're in a dumpster fire right now, it seems, but something in me is like, hey, there's a really really pretty, lush green pasture that you're gonna eventually meet to once you stop walking on this rock hard rubble that you're currently on. Like it's rough, it's uncomfortable, it's painful, but every now and then again you're met with this overlook where you see where you're going, and it's like just enough hope that you need to keep on stepping on each painful stone to get to where you can take your shoes off and it be like the grounded floor that you know you need, and like there's no darkness around. It's completely lit up and you're not in this like terrible, dark filled, painful journey of a forest.
00:35:50
Speaker 3: And that's how I feel. It's like, I literally feel.
00:35:52
Speaker 2: That's what I'm in right now, but I'm constantly being given glimpses of where I'm going, and it's worth it.
00:36:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, it strikes me that the way you frame it is almost that you've taken the negativity from that drug of an exclusionary faith, and your hope is that on the other side of the journey, it's actual grace applied for all people and all things. Yeah, I really hope it continues to feel that way for you.
00:36:33
Speaker 2: You know, I think it's the only way for me to keep on going. Like, you know, I've talked to my therapists all the time. What if I just stop. What if I just never shared another video, what if I deleted my account? What if I never agreed to another interview or anything? And she's like, Okay, yeah, what does happen? What happens? And I know too much of what it means to live an anauthentic life, and so I had to take the risk.
00:37:01
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:37:02
Speaker 1: I mean you said earlier that you want to show up better for your kids. Yeah, that that's your goal, you know what, thinking about where you are today and what's coming you know in a few years, What do you hope your kids will come to understand about your journey? How do you hope they have better childhoods because they're not being trapped in that kind of indoctrination.
00:37:34
Speaker 2: My children have a spark in them and a shine so bright that I know if I stayed down on that, they would be.
00:37:44
Speaker 1: Dull mm hmm, like yeah, like you were.
00:37:54
Speaker 3: And I can't I can't repeat that. You know.
00:37:59
Speaker 2: My oldest sister who's on this journey with me, she told me about a dream she had a month or so ago, and it was every woman in our lineage standing in a line this clapic. It ends with me when my sister, it ends in this generation, and I'm really thankful for that.
00:38:28
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think being a cycle breaker is a big deal, and I think it's part of why we see this really intense swing, you know, in parts of the world to conservativism, and why you see the intense amount of money like the right is spending on indoctrinating boys in particular online. You know, you see that gen Z boys are like they want women subservient, they think good girls never initiate sex, like all these really toxic beliefs. And I speak to the women in my life that are you know, my sort of intergenerational friends that are in the generation between us and our parents, and they're like, man, we've had one generation of pseudo equality for women, and they are already spending billions of dollars to convince the men to go back, Like, and we're not even all the way there yet. But if we can, if in each of our families, in each of our lives, we can break that, we can say no, I'm not doing that, we can have healthy relationships and balance between us. I think it's a really I think it's a really big big deal. And I think particularly in spaces like the one that you are exiting, where the veneer of this is good for everyone has really been polished for a long time, you know, getting out of that and seeing that that is not the case, and that on the other side is like actual joyful partnerships and marriages and families and lives and careers and anything. If you're choosing rather than someone else telling, it's a big deal because you're right. A lot of the women that came before us didn't get that opportunity. They didn't get to choose anything. Thank you for today. This has been so special. I really appreciate you.
00:40:31
Speaker 3: I appreciated this as well. Thank you for the opportunity
Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Welcome back to work in progress, my DearS. We are in the midst of a vulnerable conversation with Carter Brown, and I'd like to continue down that path, asking some questions that are probably hard to answer, and honestly exercising I'd say my best self. In doing so, We're showing up really vulnerably and patiently, and I appreciate the journey with her, and I appreciate you all for being on it with us. Let's dive back in with Carter. Can I ask something just like, because obviously we're figuring out what sphere of information your former side is operating with, and I'm clearly asking some questions about what you've seen from the sphere of information I get to see, which is probably more than most people. I mean, listen, I went to journalism school, like I'm a news junkie, A I am a believer in community organizing because I think policy is politics, but actually politics are personal, like I can be a little I don't know what the word is excited about the possibility if it isn't corrupt, right, but that's big picture like for us, Steph I'm curious for you. You know, you've you've mentioned your kids, and you've mentioned your husband. How is your deconstruction going in your marriage, because clearly you have been married longer than you've been unpacking these fallacies. Is your husband going along for the ride with you?
00:02:05
Speaker 2: He grew up in a progressive, left leaning home. Oh well, and when we were dating, I remember I asked him.
00:02:13
Speaker 3: Who do you think goes to heaven?
00:02:16
Speaker 2: And he goes everyone and I laughed, and I am so desperately trying to get that man back. I indoctrinated him. He's the one who started questioning Trump before I, and so he and I were really big into the conspiracy thing. And during the pandemic, like you, we both were essential workers, so we went into the office every day. But like it was just like us in our bubble pretty much, you know. And so yeah, that's all we really looked into. And then we got married, and like, I never stopped looking into stuff. And so when I debunked rapture culture, it was really hard for him to like understand where I'm coming from because he's having weekly Bible studies and reading his Bible every night and trying to be the man that he agreed to my father to be as my husband, because when he asked my dad for my hand in marriage, that's when he became a Christian. My dad converted him that day. And you know, he Tyler has seen a lot of like great things that have happened since becoming more disciplined in his relationship with God. But we're both kind of going through it right now. And he actually admitted to me the other day that he's like, I think I'm going through a professional ego death.
00:03:46
Speaker 3: And I was like, we're getting somewhere. This is great.
00:03:52
Speaker 2: But over the last year, basically all of twenty twenty five, it was really rough. I mean, you know, he'd be like, what do you mean you don't believe in hell anymore?
00:04:03
Speaker 3: And it would just I.
00:04:04
Speaker 2: Didn't know how to like defend where I was, to be able to like regurgitate it, and so it just became like explosive and blow up. And you know, he's reading his Bible and I'm not. I'm talking to God more than I'm doing anything like that, and we're just going opposite directions.
00:04:21
Speaker 1: And it's not lost on me that you've had the experience of realizing that the arena of your conviction was maybe not as for good as you were always told, and now you are trying to do some good out of the harm done by that, and so I I think that's why your story is powerful. I also am curious what stories like you mentioned have been powerful to you, Like what are what are the documentaries you've watched with your husband? You know, you mentioned that you saw a documentary last January that really opened your eyes, Like, what are the things that have been helpful in terms of well told stories that help you see what's happening around you?
00:05:10
Speaker 2: So MAGA and evangelical Christianity go like this, and so the House of Cards fell from you and I deep on tell and someone in the comment section put it really like just perfectly.
00:05:22
Speaker 3: They were like.
00:05:24
Speaker 2: Questioning the punishment of the system caused you the system to like crumble essentially. And so it's called eternal theater. You honestly can just listen to it. It's not really visually stimulating.
00:05:39
Speaker 3: You can just be on a tread listen to it.
00:05:41
Speaker 1: You would do it like a podcast.
00:05:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, basically okay, And it I mean lays it out historically, like how Man created this idea and it was form of control and all that, and I mean, it's irrefutable. And then we watched a couple months ago, uh Sins of Our Father, which is made by a twenty sixteen Trump voter, and the whole documentary is about why he's not a voter for Trump anymore. And he grew up in Charleston, and so it was about him like deconstructing all of that and like really showing how the deep racist roots of our country. And before we watched that video, my husband didn't understand why. I felt like, I like, I'll claim it right now. I am a civil rights activist and I will die being a civil rights activist and that's what I want to do and that's who I believe I am. And my husband didn't understand that. And after watching that documentary, the credits rolled and he was like, well, I just learned a lot and I understand why you feel the way that you feel. And we as a country need to heal. Yeah, the highest form of accountability is healing. This is how why our country has not healed. We have not healed after Civil War. We did not heal after like post segregation, like we did not heal collectively. We have not heard black voices in this country to a way that we need to and to piggyback off what you're saying of like how I'm doing this and being able to handle the criticism and not turn and run back or delete my profile or never go back. It's like I'm past that I am on this journey that I know I will never get anything right, like I will always need to have the mirror put in front of me and showing like, hey, this is where you missed the mark.
00:07:51
Speaker 1: And you know you said, like you've woken up to understand what these systems look like. And one of the ways I think about they that oppress so many of us look people are fallible, and people can be horrible, and there are absolutely like racist, sexist monsters among us, people who think rape is funny, people who think communities of color deserve harm. Those people I'm not interested in talking to, but people who want to understand how, even in their subconscious their beliefs or their behaviors might have been shaped by systems, not by their own choice or even by their own awareness. Like that's a conversation I want to have all day. And one of the things that has really been illuminating to me about the systems is to understand how influence they've always been by money, because money is defined for so many as power, and when you see how you know, pre Christian tradition, for example, there was so much sacredness of both both spirits of men and women, the masculine the feminine. There was even the honor of you know, the most demonized people by the evangelicals right now or the trans community, whereas historically two spirit people were thought to have the knowledge of the whole universe, like, oh my God, you are magic because you understand all of it and in every other you know, being or avenue. Two halves have to make a whole. And I don't just mean like you know, how you make a baby, obviously, I mean like spiritually, energetically. And when agriculture, you know, this incredible discovery and invention and expansion of science that could allow us to feed ourselves year around, became about ownership. Cows became property and so did women. And the stain on America of hundreds of years of slavery was a about production. It was about stealing labor. And yes, absolutely influenced by and allowed by and created out of racism and bigotry for people considered other. But like when you really get down to it, and you go, oh, we subjugate everybody for money for money, Like it's so antithetical to every good faith tradition, the metaphors of care, of giving more than you have. It's so crazy, and I think those wake up calls for people. I think seeing stories like you've talked about. I have two things for you guys. You have to watch Origin by Ava du Verne. It is an incredible film she made about Isabelle Wilkerson's work on cast and that's a big eye opener and it's tough, like you actually see how the Nazis based what they did to the Jews in Germany on American Jim Crow laws. Like it's it's bad, but it's important. And Ava, as the legend that she is, manages to tell this story through the lens of the researcher, so you're you're falling in love with this woman and her family and you're learning really hard lessons at the same time. So it is it is indelible. And then there's a researcher I really like because again, you know I mentioned to you and a lot of people who listen to the show know this. Like I always joke my religious upbringing it was just a bunch of cats in a bag. So I like to study all the religions and also people who don't believe in them at all. And there's a there's a writer and a philosopher, Alan de Bauton, who wrote a book called Religion for Atheists, and it is so incredible because it it talks about all the incredible tradition that humans created together that then got co opted by religions as as modern society evolved. And how if we could just hold our traditions the things we need as humans, maybe we wouldn't all be so insane about our religions and we could like make room for them and for other peoples. So I think you'll really like them both. Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. So the question is because you are on the path to it and listen, I do think as hard as it can be to learn in public, I think it is it's like going to grad school instead of being a junior in high school. Like it really so much public access and input can be overwhelming, but it really can teach you so much more quickly. But I my question really revolves around you know, we see people who want to leave it, but they stop short of confronting these these buckets of bigotry, if you will, racism, homophobia, transphobia, you know, sexism even. Why do you think there are folks from your spiritual neck of the woods who want to leave MAGA is a movement, but who don't want to confront those issues that you just talked about. You know, you're confronting your husband's confronting with you. You learn the history, you see the facts, and then you can't deny it anymore. Why do you think people want to stop short of really examining that stuff?
00:13:49
Speaker 3: Because I think they're so wrapped up in their religion.
00:13:53
Speaker 2: You know, I've had some friends that are like, yeah, I'm done with MAGA, but I'm not voting. I'm definitely not voting for people for the blue because they haven't deconstructed that part. They haven't deconstructed that the left is not I don't even like to use left and right anymore. Like people that are against Trump. Here's the thing, y'all caught on to it before we did, and so like, how can how and so that's why I try and like position to the people that are like, no, I'm not getting down with the left.
00:14:24
Speaker 3: There's really no other way to say that.
00:14:26
Speaker 2: And I'm like, but they saw it, like they were able to see it before we, so like, why are we going to discount everything else that they said?
00:14:35
Speaker 3: It's hard for me to know.
00:14:36
Speaker 2: I don't have a blueprint because not everyone's doing it the way that I'm doing it. Not everyone's having the veil lifted the way that I have. Yeah, And so for me, I was able to have conversations really early on with queer people, with parents of children who are transgender, and immigrants, Like I was talking to all these different types of people in my car section in my DMS.
00:15:02
Speaker 1: And I'm like, they're just normal people, you.
00:15:06
Speaker 3: Know, like they're.
00:15:08
Speaker 2: You know, they are who they are because that's who they are, like not because of you know, when you're in Christianity, you think, oh, something happened to them or you know whatever, or.
00:15:24
Speaker 3: And literally like that's what I thought.
00:15:27
Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh go ahead, Well I was just going to say, that's so interesting right that that you were fed the idea that anyone who thought differently than you only thought that because they'd had less of a good life.
00:15:42
Speaker 1: There's so much judgment and ego in.
00:15:45
Speaker 2: That you really underestimate this whole. I'm a chosen one of God that does some f'd up stuff up here because like, and I'll say this to Christians, because here's the thing. I still I found a really great progressive church. It's it's great. Like, I still I believe in a higher power. I just I ain't down with the dogma. I accepted Jesus into my heart when I was four. My oldest daughter is four. There is no way that I could ever sit her down and tell her what was said to me and to have her understand.
00:16:21
Speaker 1: No, she's a baby. She wants to play make believe. It's also really interesting to me, you know, doing my my own work on the faith side. It's funny because sometimes people you know, who come from your former former world will be like, well, you you're like this because you're you know, you're an activist and you love people of color and you're queer and you're and I'm like, I've been this way my whole life. Calmed down, I actually do just love my neighbors, and in an interesting way, I use all the the things I I find solace in from different faith traditions and the study of those spaces and studying theology as like a lens in instead of a lens to exclude. And it's funny how many evangelical people in particular will tell me that I am the way I am because I have no relationship with God, and I'm like, my spirituality is big, but it's also mine. I don't need to advertise it to get you to buy a product I'm selling on Instagram, Like, that's not I don't use it as a brand. And I think the brand, the identity, the ideology, the all of the things that fit into like a that cult mentality that makes it so dangerous to leave makes me, I don't want to say sympathetic to it, but it makes me understand how hard it is for people to get out. I wonder two things, How how you want to try to make amends to people that you know you hurt even without having meant to, and how you want to reach back into that space and try to help other people know they get to come out. So I'm just curious how you are navigating doing both of those things simultaneously.
00:18:22
Speaker 2: So it's Funny you mentioned that, like I wish there was an option where I could like upload to MAGA audience, upload to non Maga audience, right, because it is it's hard to like share my journey, share my perspective, but also.
00:18:40
Speaker 3: Try and cater to everyone.
00:18:43
Speaker 1: Well you can't cater to everyone.
00:18:45
Speaker 2: I know, I know, but like the thing is is, I started posting because I wanted to stop being depressed, and my intuition was like, hey, try this, because I was so against going to therapy or doing anything like that. And so I did that, and then I realized, Okay, I'm not for myself anymore. I'm posting for other people. I'm posting to give them hope, and I'm giving hope to the people that are still in MAGA. Like I didn't even realize what I was doing when I did it, right, It literally was just me trying to show up for my kids better. And so aside from putting myself out there and doing that, I am monetarily giving back. I am meeting with the black candidates in Georgia to help elevate them because I now have a platform. I now have like across two platforms, like fifty thousand followers and I want to figure out what I can do with that right.
00:19:38
Speaker 1: Well, and listen, that's meaningful. I gotta be honest because there are there are women who will listen to you about those candidates who won't listen to me. You know that's not lost on me. Maybe when you say, do you know these abortion bands are killing women? That women are losing their fertility because they're having miss carriages and doctors won't perform dncs and they're literally losing the ability to ever have another baby, like do you? They might not be willing to hear that from me, but they'll hear it from you, And so I do want to encourage like, yes, you said it. You're going to make mistakes, You're not going to be perfect, But I want to encourage you to keep trying and to keep being willing to hear feedback and grow because that stuff matters. You know, we've all got friends who are experiencing these things. Now, you know, we see it, and I know I mean and you've talked about this. I know that the abortion issue, for some reason, it's been made into this kind of boogeyman on the right rather than just treat it as a simple facet of healthcare. That's nobody's business. It's been turned into an issue when for some reason, school shootings and kids being star and all these other things, you know, lack of food stamps, lack of community support don't get through.
00:21:06
Speaker 3: But that does.
00:21:08
Speaker 1: And if someone like you can help crack that facade, it's going to be a really big deal.
00:21:17
Speaker 2: I really do believe people are asking these questions, they're wondering, they're questioning, they've seen they'll tilt down the rose colored glasses every now and again, see the red flags, but then want to put it right back up.
00:21:28
Speaker 3: But that seed of doubt was planted.
00:21:31
Speaker 2: And this is what I really try and impart on people, is like, I really don't think it's not going to be a fact. It's not going to be a statistic, it's not going to be you're getting upset with them or not getting upset with them, like they will only hear the truth when they need to hear the truth, like it will. The truth cannot be told, It could only be realized, and it will only be realized when someone's ready. But I truly do believe what people like you have been doing for the last ten years has been planting seeds of doubt has been you know, making the red flags there and a parent, but the cognitive dissonance has been too strong. But since now everyone like what Trump is saying with this war and what they're telling the troops. But honestly, I'm like, I'm so glad I got out of this before because I can't imagine trying to be a Christian trying to justify Oh, okay, he's planning the armageddon like what.
00:22:25
Speaker 1: It's crazy, it really is. And now a word from our sponsors, Okay, can I ask you a question because that's a really big concept that stresses me out. But you saying like, oh, I'm glad I'm out of this while I'm watching him say these things because it's insane. The concept behind the war is nuts when you hear what they're saying to the troops, but also the way they've gathered this raw, raw sentiment for him as like a commander in chief. The ear incident, the supposed assassination attempt. We all know cartilage doesn't grow back. How is that being talked about in the world you came out of. How like they didn't talk about that? Are they talking about the war and all these crazy Armageddon talking points, like is anything getting through?
00:23:28
Speaker 3: Well?
00:23:28
Speaker 2: For the last three weeks, all they talked about was Nancy Gothrie. That was all anyone talked about. Anyone. All they talked about was Like when I would see people that supported MAGO over the last few weeks, hoping maybe they'd be like, did you hear about the Epstein files? Now this Nancy Guthrie case, it's just so scary, like what is going on? And I remember being like, it's working.
00:23:53
Speaker 1: Looking at it from the outside. Does everything just feel like a distraction tactic? Like y, does everything feel like it's a cat toy to be like look over here and don't pay attention.
00:24:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all that it is, one hundred percent. Like, Okay, I've been meaning to tell you this because I want to see your reaction. I learned about Project twenty twenty five three months ago.
00:24:12
Speaker 1: Oh boy, have you seen Project Esther?
00:24:15
Speaker 3: Yeah?
00:24:17
Speaker 1: It's really bad. It's really bad for us ladies.
00:24:20
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:24:21
Speaker 2: So when I say that, like people literally say like you're lying, you're lying.
00:24:27
Speaker 3: I'm like, why would I lie?
00:24:29
Speaker 1: Now?
00:24:29
Speaker 3: Like why would I lie about?
00:24:31
Speaker 1: Right? Okay? So I have a question because that's insane and I honestly don't know what to say about it.
00:24:36
Speaker 3: I mean not I just it's I get it, like I get it.
00:24:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd literally just hear a kamma in my head being like, you're not hearing me different sets of information. So, okay, you heard about Project twenty twenty five three.
00:24:51
Speaker 3: Months ago and a comment on TikTok oh.
00:24:54
Speaker 1: Boy, there was a big alarm bell, obviously for a lot of us working working up to the twenty twenty four election, especially because for me, I was like, guys, they're not even hiding it, Like they printed their manifesto like a school shooter, Like they straight up are like, this is what I'm going to do, you guys and your families, Like it's so crazy. So the information's not breaking through, no, which then takes me to think, like takes me backwards to think. For you know, you talked about really wanting from here on out to be on the side of civil rights, on the side of you know, making amends for harm and actually doing good. Does anything break through that wall? Does anything break into that evangelical space for racial disparity or racial justice?
00:25:53
Speaker 2: So I remember it was like ten years ago, and this was when I left and I was dating this black guy, a son of two Nigerian immigrants, and so he like sort of educating me on things. And there was this this KKK rally at Stone Mountain, Georgia, and it was like this huge thing and it was on the news, and I remember like making a post about it on my Facebook being like, this is horrible. I can't believe this is still happening. Blah blah blah. And people in my life were calling me and messaging me and be like, you need to take that down, like you're repeating misinformation, like you the amount of white on black crime is dis like, it's fake news, it's not real, Like you're yeah, wow, yeah wow.
00:26:49
Speaker 1: So not only is a lot of the actual news not breaking through, but when something does, you get told it's not real.
00:26:57
Speaker 2: There's a whole sect of people within that support MAGA that literally thinks.
00:27:06
Speaker 3: That school shootings are fake, that everything is.
00:27:17
Speaker 2: Everything's planned, and to like distract you and to harness your energy, like it's.
00:27:25
Speaker 3: It's scary to leave, to like.
00:27:28
Speaker 2: Think that there are people that still think that way, right, And I think the reason why I stopped paying attention to all that stuff is because it started to seep into me and being like, Okay, maybe it is all fakes.
00:27:41
Speaker 3: Maybe it is all like.
00:27:44
Speaker 2: This whole idea of like focusing on your family, this traditional family unit, being a tradwife and all this like don't don't turn the news on. That's just going to cause anxiety and stress in your life and it's going to creep into how you raise your kids. And your kids should just be in this perfect bubble and not hearing anything.
00:28:00
Speaker 1: And right, because if you, as a woman, are informed, you might start to change your mind about being unpaid labor for the system that all of this plays into. You might not like the fact that everything falls on your shoulders and that you're supposed to be docile and subservient and all the things.
00:28:25
Speaker 2: I mean, there's literally people that are like, oh, that's so weird. Glene Maxwell's in prison and no one else.
00:28:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's in prison. Christy GNOME's the only one who's been fired. And that's part of it for me, right, is like on my end of the information spectrum, sometimes I want to shake people and be like, do you not understand that carrying water for a white supremacist patriarchy will never benefit you? But I think but.
00:28:53
Speaker 3: Those words are so triggering for them. I know.
00:28:55
Speaker 1: I can't hear that.
00:28:57
Speaker 2: I know, and this is so one thing I wanted to when you were talking about giving back. So there's this organization called Leaving Maga and it was a once Trump supporter. He left, he woke up and he created this organization. It was really great. It's honestly like a I think once it gets large enough, it's going to be a great place for people to like softly land when they leave MAGA. But right now, there's it's just small. There's just a very small amount of us. And I remember asking him, like, what are your what are your thoughts on the word cult. He's like, we really try and stray away from that. And I get it. I get why, because like, there's no I remember when I first started thinking like it was a cult, and I remember being like, oh, this is so uncomfortable. But now I'm like, yeah, it's cool, it's cool. I grew up in fear based control and doctrination. Like I just now can say all that, like it not trigger me in any type of way. But like other people, they cannot hear that, They cannot hear.
00:29:56
Speaker 1: That well, And I think that's the hard thing can be. The hard thing is when you know something, and when you know the thing causes so much hurt. It's hard to be patient with people who don't know yet because rightfully so, you're like, how could you not know this? How could you not be paying attention.
00:30:16
Speaker 2: I can't imagine the ten years like I've had three months, and I'm like, oh, this is terrible.
00:30:21
Speaker 1: People always say the only way out is through, but like the only way you're going to get through is if you figure out how to harness a little bit of grace.
00:30:29
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:30:29
Speaker 2: I keep on using the analogy that I'm a buffalo, like I'm just going through the storm and running through it instead of waiting it out, because that's yeah.
00:30:38
Speaker 3: I feel like I've waited it out my whole life.
00:30:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you stop again, you might get stuck again. Yeah, and now a word from our wonderful sponsors so you can reflect back on your life. And then you've also spoken about how this is going to be a lifelong process, and you know that, I'm curious what you're most looking forward to in the journey that you know is ahead.
00:31:19
Speaker 3: The first word that came to my mind was peace. Somehow I.
00:31:25
Speaker 2: Feel with every fiber of my being, all the way down to my pinky toes. The change is happening, Change will happen. The hope that I feel in my soul isn't for nothing. And the people that I've locked arms with in this journey, they all feel that hope too, despite it being like what the f is are we going to wake up to today? But for some reason, I feel so hopeful that this somehow turns around, that people wake up, that the collective wake up, like something in me was so desperate for change, and I believe that that soul awakening will happen for everyone. And it's not it's not your job to try and wake them up. It's their own job. Your job is to.
00:32:24
Speaker 3: If you have the capacity to do so.
00:32:26
Speaker 2: Because I know so many people are like, I'm done with MAGA, especially the I learned the black community is like we're done, We're done.
00:32:32
Speaker 3: After twenty twenty four. They were like, white people, it's you.
00:32:35
Speaker 2: And that's what I'm realizing is and why so many white people have reached out to me to help me and all this is because the black community is like it, we're not doing this anymore.
00:32:43
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you admitting that is important for other people to hear because it's not It's not a reality that means don't try. It's a reality that means I'm I'm going to continue to try, and hopefully eventually you will know you're a person who can trust me. And I think that's the more elevated work. That's how we act like adults and not like our dear toddlers.
00:33:13
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:33:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so aware that trust is earned for sure. I mean, and I joke, I would be out on no man's land for however long I needed to in order to feel accepted, like I would rather have no one then whatever I came from.
00:33:34
Speaker 1: That's really powerful when you think about what's ahead in your journey, because we're talking about big concepts right and service and how to shift culture and how hopefully to win elections so we can have policy that helps people instead of hurts people. And then you've also got your life, if your marriage, your children. I don't know if it's in the grand scheme or really granular at home, but what feels like you're work in progress.
00:34:09
Speaker 2: Right now, my soul. I'm told all the time, I grew up the same way you did, and I saw through it.
00:34:21
Speaker 3: And noah da da dah.
00:34:22
Speaker 2: And I'm like, that was your path and this is mine. And I've accepted that my soul is a work in progress in all of this because.
00:34:39
Speaker 3: I don't I don't.
00:34:41
Speaker 2: Ever want to get to a point where I'm like, I'm good with what I'm done. I don't need to learn anymore. I don't need to change anymore. I don't need to adapt anymore. I don't need to reconsider anything anymore. I'm not I will.
00:34:52
Speaker 3: Never get to that.
00:34:54
Speaker 2: I am committed to learning how to be better every single day.
00:34:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's something I'm excited about.
00:35:03
Speaker 2: Like, like I said, the hope that I have, Like it's just this weird feeling of like, yes, we're in a dumpster fire right now, it seems, but something in me is like, hey, there's a really really pretty, lush green pasture that you're gonna eventually meet to once you stop walking on this rock hard rubble that you're currently on. Like it's rough, it's uncomfortable, it's painful, but every now and then again you're met with this overlook where you see where you're going, and it's like just enough hope that you need to keep on stepping on each painful stone to get to where you can take your shoes off and it be like the grounded floor that you know you need, and like there's no darkness around. It's completely lit up and you're not in this like terrible, dark filled, painful journey of a forest.
00:35:50
Speaker 3: And that's how I feel. It's like, I literally feel.
00:35:52
Speaker 2: That's what I'm in right now, but I'm constantly being given glimpses of where I'm going, and it's worth it.
00:36:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, it strikes me that the way you frame it is almost that you've taken the negativity from that drug of an exclusionary faith, and your hope is that on the other side of the journey, it's actual grace applied for all people and all things. Yeah, I really hope it continues to feel that way for you.
00:36:33
Speaker 2: You know, I think it's the only way for me to keep on going. Like, you know, I've talked to my therapists all the time. What if I just stop. What if I just never shared another video, what if I deleted my account? What if I never agreed to another interview or anything? And she's like, Okay, yeah, what does happen? What happens? And I know too much of what it means to live an anauthentic life, and so I had to take the risk.
00:37:01
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:37:02
Speaker 1: I mean you said earlier that you want to show up better for your kids. Yeah, that that's your goal, you know what, thinking about where you are today and what's coming you know in a few years, What do you hope your kids will come to understand about your journey? How do you hope they have better childhoods because they're not being trapped in that kind of indoctrination.
00:37:34
Speaker 2: My children have a spark in them and a shine so bright that I know if I stayed down on that, they would be.
00:37:44
Speaker 1: Dull mm hmm, like yeah, like you were.
00:37:54
Speaker 3: And I can't I can't repeat that. You know.
00:37:59
Speaker 2: My oldest sister who's on this journey with me, she told me about a dream she had a month or so ago, and it was every woman in our lineage standing in a line this clapic. It ends with me when my sister, it ends in this generation, and I'm really thankful for that.
00:38:28
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think being a cycle breaker is a big deal, and I think it's part of why we see this really intense swing, you know, in parts of the world to conservativism, and why you see the intense amount of money like the right is spending on indoctrinating boys in particular online. You know, you see that gen Z boys are like they want women subservient, they think good girls never initiate sex, like all these really toxic beliefs. And I speak to the women in my life that are you know, my sort of intergenerational friends that are in the generation between us and our parents, and they're like, man, we've had one generation of pseudo equality for women, and they are already spending billions of dollars to convince the men to go back, Like, and we're not even all the way there yet. But if we can, if in each of our families, in each of our lives, we can break that, we can say no, I'm not doing that, we can have healthy relationships and balance between us. I think it's a really I think it's a really big big deal. And I think particularly in spaces like the one that you are exiting, where the veneer of this is good for everyone has really been polished for a long time, you know, getting out of that and seeing that that is not the case, and that on the other side is like actual joyful partnerships and marriages and families and lives and careers and anything. If you're choosing rather than someone else telling, it's a big deal because you're right. A lot of the women that came before us didn't get that opportunity. They didn't get to choose anything. Thank you for today. This has been so special. I really appreciate you.
00:40:31
Speaker 3: I appreciated this as well. Thank you for the opportunity
