Vol 7 – Learning From a Place That is Not a Hot Steaming Mess

Andy:
00:00:00
Hey, Jed.



Andy:
00:00:01
Good to see you.



Jed:
00:00:02
Hey, Andy.



Jed:
00:00:03
How you doing?



Jed:
00:00:03
How's your summer been?



Andy:
00:00:04
Mine's been good.



Andy:
00:00:05
I'll tell you about it, but start with you.



Andy:
00:00:07
How, what have you been up to since we were last together?



Andy:
00:00:09
It's been a minute.



Jed:
00:00:10
Well, I haven't had as much summer in terms of vacation.



Jed:
00:00:14
I'm saving things up.



Jed:
00:00:15
It's my wife's on my 25th and we're walking the Camino in Spain in the second



Jed:
00:00:20
half of September and October, so I basically been working straight through



Jed:
00:00:24
the summer, but most of the other time that I've had has been around my son and



Jed:
00:00:29
helping him with his college applications and trying to get in front of a college



Jed:
00:00:34
coach for his soccer team also trying to help a lot of his teammates who are



Jed:
00:00:39
similarly in the recruiting process.



Jed:
00:00:41
I know we want to keep it light and talk about the fun of summer, right?



Jed:
00:00:44
But this soccer recruiting and D3 sports and the gentrification of college



Jed:
00:00:49
athletics is something I'm experiencing up close and personal right now.



Jed:
00:00:53
But I guess the positive thing is a lot of Quentin's soccer friends, several of whom



Jed:
00:00:58
are first generation are actually going to end up going to good schools in the end.



Jed:
00:01:02
And so we feel terrific about that.



Andy:
00:01:04
Yeah, that's great.



Andy:
00:01:05
And they all end up like, you know, going to good schools.



Andy:
00:01:07
I think athletics can end up taking on like an outsized importance.



Andy:
00:01:11
We should maybe at some point do a Steve Messler, and I did one with Michael



Andy:
00:01:16
Horn in a podcast, we talked about that.



Andy:
00:01:18
We can put that in the show notes.



Andy:
00:01:19
We were talking about coming back with our daughters.



Andy:
00:01:22
All of us have, and Steve's daughter is younger.



Andy:
00:01:25
My daughters have both played competitive sports and just like, it's a lot for sure.



Andy:
00:01:31
Maybe we could do something on that.



Andy:
00:01:33
You're going to walk the way, where are you going to start and,



Andy:
00:01:37
and how far are you going to go?



Jed:
00:01:38
So we're going to start in Saint Jean in France and we'll go across the French



Jed:
00:01:45
Pyrenees there and do the entire distance.



Jed:
00:01:47
So we did a third of it eight years ago, when I was on sabbatical, and



Jed:
00:01:53
our little ones, our 10 and our 12 year old were with us at the time.



Jed:
00:01:56
But when we got to the end, Amy and I said, Hey, let's come back for



Jed:
00:02:00
our 25th and do the entire thing.



Jed:
00:02:01
So it's been this thing that's been an anchor there for a long time.



Jed:
00:02:04
We really had a good time.



Jed:
00:02:05
I don't know if you've done any part of the Camino or know very much about it,



Jed:
00:02:07
but it's getting to be super popular.



Jed:
00:02:10
It's overrun with tourists, but it's also quite a cool experience.



Jed:
00:02:14
And we're really looking forward to it.



Andy:
00:02:15
Yeah, we have friends have done it.



Andy:
00:02:16
I mean, a lot of what I know about honestly comes from that fantastic



Andy:
00:02:20
Emilio Estevez, Mark Sheen film.



Andy:
00:02:23
But I know a little bit.



Andy:
00:02:26
I had a little, a similar experience.



Andy:
00:02:29
I would say sort of a far more perhaps more secular experience.



Andy:
00:02:34
We were in Rome, we were riding our bikes in a way, and I didn't realize.



Andy:
00:02:39
You can actually just sort of self deploy and ride the whole thing if



Andy:
00:02:43
you want with a, you know, mountain bike, suspended kind of bike.



Andy:
00:02:48
And so now I'm like trying to figure out how far we could



Andy:
00:02:51
take it and ride into Rome.



Andy:
00:02:54
So that's now becoming, I have another Europe ride I want to do.



Andy:
00:02:58
And now that's on, that's on the list.



Jed:
00:02:59
So was that the first time for the family in Rome?



Andy:
00:03:02
It was first time as a family for us to be in Italy together.



Andy:
00:03:04
Yes, we went to, we were in Rome.



Andy:
00:03:06
Florence and Tuscany.



Andy:
00:03:07
So, you know, some history, a lot of food and wine and some good time



Andy:
00:03:13
outside to some good time together.



Andy:
00:03:14
We're at a similar point.



Andy:
00:03:16
My kids are 17, so we're trying to remind them that their parents are okay.



Andy:
00:03:21
So maybe they'll come back one day.



Jed:
00:03:23
Last summer, we were trying to pitch an idea for a trip together as a family,



Jed:
00:03:27
and I pitched all these different things.



Jed:
00:03:29
Let's go camping.



Jed:
00:03:30
Let's go to Canada.



Jed:
00:03:32
Let's go...



Jed:
00:03:32
and everyone was like, Why don't you and mom get some good quality time together?



Jed:
00:03:37
And then I pitched Rome and they're like, "Oh, let's do a family vacation!"



Andy:
00:03:41
So, yeah, Rome is great.



Andy:
00:03:42
It's a fun city.



Andy:
00:03:43
You can both have fun.



Andy:
00:03:44
There's the learning opportunities there.



Andy:
00:03:47
You could spend a decade there and not get through so much.



Andy:
00:03:54
It's a cool place.



Andy:
00:03:55
I was intrigued.



Andy:
00:03:55
Like we went to, we spent a bunch of time in Alaska last summer, which was amazing.



Andy:
00:03:59
And saw just a terrific education person up there, Jamie Rees.



Andy:
00:04:03
He's a high school teacher in Seattle.



Andy:
00:04:04
He used to teach in Baltimore, fantastic.



Andy:
00:04:07
He was a college athlete, played soccer for Harvard and just one of those really



Andy:
00:04:12
interesting people in our sector and spend some time with him up around Fairbanks.



Andy:
00:04:16
It was a great trip.



Andy:
00:04:17
And I wasn't sure that the kids like really love it or was it like



Andy:
00:04:20
nice, they're glad to be home, and interestingly, like when we're



Andy:
00:04:24
starting to work on the Italy trip, one of my daughters is like, "I wish



Andy:
00:04:27
we could just like go back to Alaska and be outside in Alaska again."



Andy:
00:04:30
I was kind of like, okay, that's not this summer, but that's cool.



Andy:
00:04:33
We will definitely, you know, I've been lucky enough to be up there a few times



Andy:
00:04:37
and we will definitely do that again.



Jed:
00:04:39
Yeah, so we have we have kindred spirits in all sorts of ways.



Jed:
00:04:42
We did a trip in Alaska and that is the kids favorite by far.



Jed:
00:04:46
They would go back to Alaska in a heartbeat.



Andy:
00:04:48
Yeah, it's an amazing place.



Andy:
00:04:49
It opens, you know, like Rome opens your, I think for my kids, they'd seen old



Andy:
00:04:56
stuff, but they hadn't seen, like, they think, like, I mean, they've been, you



Andy:
00:04:58
know, like, they've been nice and they've seen Viking stuff, things like that.



Andy:
00:05:02
I think that kind of blew their minds, and I think Alaska blows your



Andy:
00:05:06
mind, so geographically, just how big country can actually be, and



Andy:
00:05:11
just how remote and how you can just get out in the bush and be gone.



Andy:
00:05:16
So I think you need things like that when you're young, it kind of



Andy:
00:05:18
changes you, it opens your horizons.



Andy:
00:05:21
Well, what my girls, I'll tell you the truth, what they



Andy:
00:05:23
really wanted this summer.



Andy:
00:05:24
Cause you know, they're 17, they thought this was going



Andy:
00:05:26
to be sort of hot girl summer.



Andy:
00:05:27
And in fact, what we basically did in addition to dragging Italy, we



Andy:
00:05:30
dragged them to a lot of concerts.



Andy:
00:05:32
And so like I I'm telling them what they got was lot, they got lot girl summer.



Andy:
00:05:37
One of my daughters and I saw a great Neil Young show.



Andy:
00:05:42
I don't know if you and I talked about that.



Andy:
00:05:43
It was a fantastic Neil Young show at the Greek, right at the beginning of summer.



Andy:
00:05:47
And then They saw Dead & Company and which was their first time in that scene.



Andy:
00:05:55
So that was interesting.



Andy:
00:05:56
And Julie and I caught Tedeschi trucks and actually, just last night, we're



Andy:
00:05:59
filming, we're doing this on a Thursday and it'll go up in a day or two.



Andy:
00:06:05
We saw Bill Kreuzman's doing a tour with his band, just a two show tour,



Andy:
00:06:10
they're calling it Peer to Peer.



Andy:
00:06:11
So he's playing, uh, the peer in Baltimore and appear up in New York.



Andy:
00:06:15
And they were exceptional.



Andy:
00:06:16
He's got just a really good configuration.



Andy:
00:06:20
This woman, Kamika Moore came by and was sat in on vocals and she was amazing.



Andy:
00:06:24
He's got this new guy, Danny Donato's sort of a real creative player.



Andy:
00:06:28
So that was super fun.



Andy:
00:06:31
And so that it's been more lot girl summer than anything else.



Jed:
00:06:34
Well, the amazing thing is you've got your kids willing



Jed:
00:06:37
to go to concerts with you.



Jed:
00:06:38
That's a bridge I've never gotten over.



Jed:
00:06:40
And I don't think I ever will.



Andy:
00:06:44
We can make this whole episode.



Andy:
00:06:45
' We can name check interesting people.' A few years ago, Paul Herdman used



Andy:
00:06:49
to tell me, from Rodel in Delaware and formerly new America schools,



Andy:
00:06:53
and, it came up an hour bound.



Andy:
00:06:56
Paul's just a terrific person in the section lives in Delaware.



Andy:
00:06:59
And Paul used to, Tell me about going to concerts with his daughter.



Andy:
00:07:02
And I was like, so sort of jealous.



Andy:
00:07:05
And I was like, "Oh my God, that's so cool."



Andy:
00:07:07
like not bad jealousy, but just, "Oh my gosh, that sounds so great."



Andy:
00:07:10
and I was like, I don't know if that'll ever.



Andy:
00:07:12
And then like, it just sort of started happening and it's been cool.



Andy:
00:07:16
We're going to go get catch some Bruce shows, hopefully this fall.



Andy:
00:07:21
It's been interesting, but it just sort of happened.



Andy:
00:07:24
And it was something I watched other people do and I was like,



Andy:
00:07:26
"how do you make that happen?"



Andy:
00:07:28
And I don't think you can, it just has to sort of happen organically.



Jed:
00:07:31
Well, maybe my kids want to stay separate from me on recreational



Jed:
00:07:34
time because of things related to charter school obsession.



Jed:
00:07:37
For example, when we were in Alaska, I found out that there is a charter



Jed:
00:07:42
school in a place called North Pole.



Jed:
00:07:44
It's called North Pole Charter School, and so we're driving into North Pole,



Jed:
00:07:49
and the kids, where do they want to go?



Jed:
00:07:51
Santa's Workshop.



Jed:
00:07:52
And I was like, "shut up!



Jed:
00:07:54
We're going to the charter school first," right?



Jed:
00:07:56
So they wanted to go in a different direction there as far as charter



Jed:
00:07:59
schools go, and I think their tastes in music have stayed similarly.



Andy:
00:08:03
We were going to visit, but COVID got in the way, Laura Marcus, who ran



Andy:
00:08:08
the ARETE project now runs Tidelines, which is a really cool school in



Andy:
00:08:11
Gustavus, Alaska for college students.



Andy:
00:08:15
And there's a school out your way called Deep Springs and she wanted



Andy:
00:08:19
to start an all female version.



Andy:
00:08:21
I ended up doing this coed thing in Alaska, just another, we're going to keep



Andy:
00:08:26
name checking, just a really interesting person in the sector, kind of does things



Andy:
00:08:29
her own way, actually she just had a baby.



Andy:
00:08:32
She's just fantastic as an educator.



Andy:
00:08:34
And I was making my kids like we're in Glacier Bay, and like at the park services



Andy:
00:08:40
sort of incredible lodge up there on Bartlett Cove and we're hanging out and



Andy:
00:08:44
dad wants to make us go to a school and so we're looking at whales and they're



Andy:
00:08:50
like, yeah, we're going to go to a school.



Andy:
00:08:51
So they get that.



Jed:
00:08:53
Well, I did enjoy getting a couple of texts from you while you were in Rome.



Jed:
00:08:58
Thank you for allowing your vacation to be interrupted.



Jed:
00:09:01
There were several ocasions, over the last month or so, because it's been



Jed:
00:09:05
a while since we've done a recording.



Jed:
00:09:07
Where virginia stuff has come up that i've wanted to talk.



Andy:
00:09:11
Yeah, we should at some point.



Andy:
00:09:12
We should this isn't just it It wants to listen.



Andy:
00:09:15
It wants to listen to the podcast Jen and I are going to talk about our



Andy:
00:09:17
vacations and our families and then get weepy about being empty nesters That'll



Andy:
00:09:21
be that'll be great for the ratings.



Andy:
00:09:24
Yes, we should pivot we can talk about that before we do that I do want to...



Andy:
00:09:27
our next so we've sort of have been bullshitting a little bit but our



Andy:
00:09:32
next And we'll get into Virginia.



Andy:
00:09:34
That's just more serious.



Andy:
00:09:35
But our nextpodcast, at the end of the month, we have two really amazing guests.



Andy:
00:09:41
It went well with Mackey is one guest.



Andy:
00:09:43
So we figured why not do two?



Andy:
00:09:45
I'm not going to say who they are, but I think it's going to be a really



Andy:
00:09:47
fantastic discussion about sort of education, politics, advocacy,



Andy:
00:09:53
parent organizing and empowerment, and I'm just super excited about it.



Andy:
00:09:59
So that one, I would say tune in, but obviously it's a podcast,



Andy:
00:10:02
you can listen whenever you want, but that'll be the next one.



Andy:
00:10:04
And I'm just super looking forward to that.



Jed:
00:10:07
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it as well and how



Jed:
00:10:09
this work is done authentically.



Jed:
00:10:11
There's times when you see folks bringing interesting efforts and it feels real,



Jed:
00:10:16
and there are others that it just doesn't, and I think the two people



Jed:
00:10:19
that we're going to have on in a couple weeks are really among those people that



Jed:
00:10:23
specialize in the authentic voice, right?



Andy:
00:10:25
Yeah, two, and we've been name checking people, we'll just name,



Andy:
00:10:28
there are two, two mystery guests who you will find out about soon.



Andy:
00:10:33
Hey, this reminds me, one more thing before we get to Virginia, do you



Andy:
00:10:35
know Steve Reese, School Wise Press, he does school data, journalism?



Jed:
00:10:39
Yeah, yeah, I know him.



Andy:
00:10:40
He is another one of these people who I was thinking, I saw



Andy:
00:10:43
Steve Reese and I was see about him.



Andy:
00:10:44
He came up in like Palo Alto and if you go to like that, they did that



Andy:
00:10:50
big Bill Graham, the music producer.



Andy:
00:10:52
Bill Graham, not Billy Graham, the evangelist, the other Bill



Andy:
00:10:55
Graham, the music producer.



Andy:
00:10:57
And like Steve's pictures were in that exhibit.



Andy:
00:10:59
He's got like, his work was used in like the Grateful Dead movie



Andy:
00:11:03
and he's got all these pictures.



Andy:
00:11:05
He gave me some pictures once and they're of like Jerry Garcia



Andy:
00:11:08
like, in like Palo Alto at these little places in the early 60s.



Andy:
00:11:14
And one day he sent me a warlocks poster.



Andy:
00:11:16
He's like one of the, he's another one of these people who like, you



Andy:
00:11:18
think you sort of know a little bit, and then like underneath there's



Andy:
00:11:23
like all this other stuff, you know?



Andy:
00:11:26
And I'm just, I was thinking about that the other day.



Andy:
00:11:28
It's like, you know, Shivam Shah, like who everybody thinks of education,



Andy:
00:11:33
education executive, but like she also owns a tequila company, which is not,



Andy:
00:11:36
Probably what you would necessarily or, you know, Becca Bracy's like,



Andy:
00:11:39
you know, really serious in the mountains, mountain biker and climber.



Andy:
00:11:42
Like we get these people who are, it's just interesting.



Andy:
00:11:46
And we, maybe one day we could do like some sort of thing on that.



Andy:
00:11:50
Cause you, they're the kind of people that surprise you.



Andy:
00:11:52
You learn a couple of things about them and you can't predict the other ones.



Andy:
00:11:55
Cause there's all this stuff out of left field.



Jed:
00:11:57
I'll leave it to Rotherham to get me to break one of my solemn vows.



Jed:
00:12:02
Because one has been never to discuss anything that I've done relative to the



Jed:
00:12:08
Grateful Dead in a professional setting.



Jed:
00:12:13
Cause believe me what happened at Grateful Dead shows needs to



Jed:
00:12:16
stay in Greateful Dead concert.



Jed:
00:12:20
But, I love the tour of all the people and the stuff that you saw this summer.



Andy:
00:12:27
Well now I'm going to make you break your back.



Andy:
00:12:28
Did you go to the shows out there with some shows out there this summer?



Jed:
00:12:31
No, I didn't go this year and I did have a very close friend that



Jed:
00:12:34
was going to Boulder and for one of the last shows with his daughter,



Jed:
00:12:39
and really wanted me to be there and I just could not make it happen with



Jed:
00:12:43
other family stuff that I had going on.



Andy:
00:12:45
Scheduling's tough.



Andy:
00:12:47
That does happen.



Andy:
00:12:48
I'm a little more porous on that role.



Andy:
00:12:49
I remember I took a couple of people from my team when I'm out in California,



Andy:
00:12:52
it's unfortunately closed, but Phil Lesh had that great club over in



Andy:
00:12:55
Marine that was just like, That's such a delightful place to spend time.



Andy:
00:12:59
And I would drag them over there.



Andy:
00:13:01
I remember I took a couple of them over there.



Andy:
00:13:02
One time, Phil was playing and with Phil Lesh's friends like Stu Allen



Andy:
00:13:06
and like some really good players.



Andy:
00:13:07
And yeah.



Andy:
00:13:08
You do have to kind of have the rule.



Andy:
00:13:10
Hey, you do whatever you do, whatever you want.



Jed:
00:13:13
And it will stay here.



Jed:
00:13:17
All right.



Jed:
00:13:17
Well let's pivot to Virginia.



Jed:
00:13:21
The way I've been thinking about this is.



Jed:
00:13:24
We've got a country that is, has about 50 hot steaming messes



Jed:
00:13:29
from a state policy standpoint.



Jed:
00:13:31
It just seems like, and they're all crazy for their own unique ways,



Jed:
00:13:35
but they are crazy at a level of craziness that is pretty unprecedented.



Jed:
00:13:40
And then you see Rick Hess write an article that quotes you and, you know,



Jed:
00:13:46
really dives deep into Virginia adopting some state content standards that



Jed:
00:13:52
seemed genuinely like really great ones.



Jed:
00:13:55
And so something substantive was able to get done in Virginia.



Jed:
00:13:58
And then I've done a few other, I just continue to read articles, there are



Jed:
00:14:02
some that come up that just stress the culture wars and all that stuff.



Jed:
00:14:07
But there's also this reasonability that's there.



Jed:
00:14:10
Some of the appointments to the state board, not just yourself,



Jed:
00:14:12
but Miche and others, suggest that maybe there's something that we



Jed:
00:14:16
should be learning from in Virginia.



Jed:
00:14:18
So I wonder if you wouldn't mind just like, setting the stage for us.



Jed:
00:14:22
Can you?



Andy:
00:14:22
Sure.



Andy:
00:14:22
And we'll put that in the show notes.



Andy:
00:14:23
It was actually an interview.



Andy:
00:14:25
Rick pulled a little bit of like a Tom Sawyer move.



Andy:
00:14:28
So it was actually an interview.



Andy:
00:14:29
So I did all the work, but he gets the byline and you know, but like Rick is



Andy:
00:14:34
of course prolific, like since then he's probably written like two books



Andy:
00:14:37
on Virginia since that interview.



Andy:
00:14:38
So that was back in like April.



Andy:
00:14:40
So yeah, but that we'll put that in the show notes.



Andy:
00:14:43
Look I don't know how to set the stage.



Andy:
00:14:45
I guess the big thing I would say about Virginia, and this has always been true



Andy:
00:14:49
I think just in public life and politics and so forth, like there's always like



Andy:
00:14:53
the narrative that people in these days, whatever people are saying on Twitter



Andy:
00:14:57
or X or whatever the hell we're calling it now, and in social media and even in



Andy:
00:15:01
some cases, like in the regular legacy media, and then there's, what's actually



Andy:
00:15:06
happening and what's actually going on.



Andy:
00:15:08
And those two things are often like, there's some variance.



Andy:
00:15:11
I think what's really pronounced now is in some cases just how



Andy:
00:15:15
substantial the variance is.



Andy:
00:15:18
And I don't think that's unique at all to Virginia.



Andy:
00:15:21
I think you see that around the country.



Andy:
00:15:24
And again, you always have, I just think it's a little bit more intense now.



Andy:
00:15:27
So I don't want to say like everything in Virginia is going swimmingly.



Andy:
00:15:30
We have intense partisanship.



Andy:
00:15:31
It's going to heat up.



Andy:
00:15:32
There's an election coming and all that.



Andy:
00:15:33
But like the point of Rick's, the interview was We did get



Andy:
00:15:37
something done on these standards.



Andy:
00:15:39
Everybody who reads them thinks they're pretty good.



Andy:
00:15:41
And I think it shows just like you can get things done and the



Andy:
00:15:46
thing about it, I don't think any one person deserves credit for it.



Andy:
00:15:50
It was a bunch of people working together and essentially just.



Andy:
00:15:53
Putting the interest of the Commonwealth and the kids of the Commonwealth ahead



Andy:
00:15:57
of like all the temporal expediency.



Jed:
00:16:01
So as far as additional context, I always go back to the election



Jed:
00:16:05
in 21 and it was seen as really a swing election where education proved



Jed:
00:16:13
to be the difference maker and the McAuliffe had, Randy Weingarten come



Jed:
00:16:20
at the last second and the thought was that maybe Weingarten would help.



Jed:
00:16:23
And the perception of at least pundits in the end was that that



Jed:
00:16:26
was exactly the wrong thing to do.



Jed:
00:16:28
Governor talked about that.



Jed:
00:16:31
We shouldn't be entrusting parents with, I don't remember exactly what



Jed:
00:16:33
the quote was, but a very radioactive comment about not trusting parents



Jed:
00:16:40
to operate our school districts or something like that and Youngkin wins.



Jed:
00:16:44
And when he wins, he makes his, you know, celebratory speech that first night, the



Jed:
00:16:51
word charter was the 60th word he uttered.



Jed:
00:16:55
We were going to get a charter school law done in Virginia.



Andy:
00:16:59
Only you, only you counted that.



Andy:
00:17:01
I like that.



Jed:
00:17:01
Oh yeah.



Jed:
00:17:01
Oh yeah.



Jed:
00:17:02
Well, you know.



Andy:
00:17:03
We probably tell me how many syllables in it.



Jed:
00:17:05
What I liked about it was though, that, you know, It



Jed:
00:17:08
signaled, I think, seriousness.



Jed:
00:17:12
I was hoping.



Jed:
00:17:13
And I think there was a very serious effort that was made.



Jed:
00:17:18
Ultimately, a charter school law was not able to get across the finish line.



Jed:
00:17:22
This lab school concept was, and I think a lot of drama and conflict happened



Jed:
00:17:28
those first early months, and then people stopped paying attention as much again.



Jed:
00:17:33
And I think it was after you know, that happened where perhaps some of these



Jed:
00:17:39
other substantive progress, examples of progress were able to happen.



Andy:
00:17:44
Yeah.



Andy:
00:17:45
Okay.



Andy:
00:17:45
So a lot there.



Andy:
00:17:46
I mean, let's start with like the political analysis.



Andy:
00:17:49
Education was obviously a factor in the race.



Andy:
00:17:51
So was voters turned out in certain parts of the state who



Andy:
00:17:54
hadn't turned out and so forth.



Andy:
00:17:56
I think one way you can see if you look at places like Loudoun County, Fairfax



Andy:
00:18:00
County, which stayed closed for a long time or sort of ground zero for some of



Andy:
00:18:04
the culture war stuff and still are, you saw a shift, you saw a distinct move.



Andy:
00:18:09
Now in terms of the political analysis, the thing, and I don't know if you and



Andy:
00:18:11
I have talked about in this podcast, I've talked about in some others, like



Andy:
00:18:14
it's easy to overstate people tend to look at the Biden election in 2020 and



Andy:
00:18:18
then the Youngkin can election in 2021 and are like, "Oh my gosh, look at



Andy:
00:18:21
this enormous 10 point kind of swing."



Andy:
00:18:24
I think the Biden election, Virginia is a state with a lot of military,



Andy:
00:18:28
a lot of civil servants, and a lot of people take government seriously.



Andy:
00:18:33
And so Biden performed well, and you had a lot of Republicans who voted



Andy:
00:18:37
Democratic at the national level in that election because of Donald



Andy:
00:18:40
Trump was on the ballot, right?



Andy:
00:18:41
And Youngkin did a masterful job keeping Donald Trump out of the race in 2021.



Andy:
00:18:47
And so I think the swing you have to look at is the swing from 2017, the



Andy:
00:18:52
previous gubernatorial election, where Ralph Northam, the Democrat won to 2021.



Andy:
00:18:57
And what you do see there is young can made inroads again.



Andy:
00:19:01
You know, substantial ones across the board, so I don't



Andy:
00:19:03
mean to like take anything away.



Andy:
00:19:05
He won the election in a state that a lot of people thought was out of reach



Andy:
00:19:08
for Republicans, and he did it by putting together a pretty interesting coalition.



Andy:
00:19:13
Much of his coalition was actually much more diverse, I think that



Andy:
00:19:17
people realize, and so I don't want to take anything away from all that,



Andy:
00:19:22
but it was not this 10 point swing.



Andy:
00:19:24
The national election, the state election are different.



Andy:
00:19:27
You got to look at 2017.



Andy:
00:19:28
And there you do see movement.



Andy:
00:19:30
And again, education, I think was a big part of it.



Andy:
00:19:33
And to your question, like, look, yeah, Randy coming in, it was like a finger



Andy:
00:19:37
in the eye to people who, and the thing you can't forget about this, is lots of



Andy:
00:19:44
people were talking in the fall of 2021.



Andy:
00:19:47
Like the school closure thing was in the past.



Andy:
00:19:49
Why did anybody care?



Andy:
00:19:50
Kids have been back in school since late that spring and all that.



Andy:
00:19:53
First of all, people were still upset about it.



Andy:
00:19:55
Second, a lot of people were still experiencing it.



Andy:
00:19:57
If you have a kid, for example, in special ed and there'd been, you know, there



Andy:
00:20:01
continues to be, you know, one of the school district state is in a compliance



Andy:
00:20:05
agreement now, around special ed services.



Andy:
00:20:09
There's a lot of.



Andy:
00:20:10
You know, other issues happening, other divisions.



Andy:
00:20:13
It's a big issue, and so people were still like, this was always



Andy:
00:20:16
talked about in the past tense.



Andy:
00:20:17
It was present tense for a lot of Virginians and McAuliffe just did not give



Andy:
00:20:24
voice to that, and again, if anything, it was like a stick in the eye, some



Andy:
00:20:27
of this stuff, and there was a price, there was a price to be paid for that.



Andy:
00:20:30
Now, and look on the charters and choice.



Andy:
00:20:32
Yeah.



Andy:
00:20:32
Look, Virginia is a tough state on charters.



Andy:
00:20:34
And I would ask you, like, I think it's a fascinating, you



Andy:
00:20:37
always, I run into people.



Andy:
00:20:39
And they talk about these states that still don't have charter laws



Andy:
00:20:42
or have really weak ones, and I would characterize Virginia's as very weak.



Andy:
00:20:46
And you hear like, "oh, people there just had a little more ganas, a little



Andy:
00:20:50
more hustle, worked a little harder."



Andy:
00:20:53
And they argue that, and that's certainly one line of argument, but I guess another



Andy:
00:20:57
one you have to ask yourself is maybe the places that don't have charter



Andy:
00:21:00
school laws that are at all are strong, don't have them for a reason, because



Andy:
00:21:05
like the politics there are really brutal and the governor cannot just



Andy:
00:21:10
wave a magic wand and create charter schools and create more school choice.



Andy:
00:21:16
You have to get through the legislature and this is always in the media like it's



Andy:
00:21:20
a left right thing, it's not, the politics are much more subtle and complicated.



Andy:
00:21:24
And so it's really hard.



Andy:
00:21:26
And so we're doing lab schools, which are these university



Andy:
00:21:29
affiliated, autonomous schools.



Andy:
00:21:31
There's some really cool proposals in the pipeline.



Andy:
00:21:35
I'm excited about that, Machea Ashton was just appointed to the Board of



Andy:
00:21:40
Education of Virginia, and yeah, so she obviously like she's forgotten more about



Andy:
00:21:43
charter schools than most of us know.



Andy:
00:21:48
We're making steps in that direction, but it is slow going and it's going to



Andy:
00:21:53
continue to be slow going just because the politics and in Virginia, there just



Andy:
00:21:57
are not robust parent groups organizing.



Andy:
00:22:00
Parents right now, the politics do sort of break down very much



Andy:
00:22:04
establishment driven on this stuff and until that changes, I don't see the



Andy:
00:22:09
choice situation changing, you know, dramatically and I wish I wish it works.



Andy:
00:22:14
I want to see parents in this commonwealth have more options and choices and



Andy:
00:22:17
more customization for their kids.



Jed:
00:22:19
Well, I think a lot of this comes down to in these states that



Jed:
00:22:22
have weak laws or no laws whatsoever.



Jed:
00:22:26
There is just a political calculus that needs to be made



Jed:
00:22:29
on the rural Republican side.



Jed:
00:22:32
Are we really going to exert pressure on these folks or not?



Jed:
00:22:36
Is it going to come from within the Republican Party or not?



Jed:
00:22:40
Or from within a political apparatus that is deeply embedded



Jed:
00:22:43
or working often with Republicans?



Jed:
00:22:46
In Texas, the advocates there saw opposition from rural Republicans



Jed:
00:22:52
on a number of things, everybody thought that they were going to be



Jed:
00:22:54
supporters of charters and when we got them to vote in the legislature,



Jed:
00:22:56
25 of them voted with the opposition.



Jed:
00:22:59
Then the political apparatus was put to work on rural Republicans



Jed:
00:23:03
in Texas, and they flipped back and we were able to get things passed.



Jed:
00:23:07
In Iowa, governor had the same thing.



Jed:
00:23:09
She tried to get an aggressive charter school thing done right away.



Jed:
00:23:14
Couldn't get it done.



Jed:
00:23:15
Raised her own money, got her own pack and said, I'm specifically going to be using



Jed:
00:23:20
this resources to hold accountable my own Republicans who didn't support this thing.



Jed:
00:23:25
She defeated a couple.



Jed:
00:23:26
And the next year she got the law passed.



Jed:
00:23:28
It's really a question of, are people, you know, Republicans



Jed:
00:23:33
usually in these kinds of contexts, willing to do that kind of thing.



Jed:
00:23:38
So I'm really fascinated to see what's going to happen with Youngkin now.



Jed:
00:23:41
I think We were well, we, whatever, I'm not Republican,



Jed:
00:23:45
but from a charter perspective.



Andy:
00:23:48
You and me, you and me both.



Andy:
00:23:49
But unfortunately, they're more vocal on choice these days.



Jed:
00:23:52
So, but, you know, the Republicans were one vote from having control of



Jed:
00:23:58
the Senate as well, which people think would have been enough difference for



Jed:
00:24:02
a charter school bill to get passed.



Jed:
00:24:04
So now, the question was, how are they going to get control of the Senate?



Jed:
00:24:09
Now, there was a special election that happened, probably January or



Jed:
00:24:13
February that was previously held by a Republican senator and that



Jed:
00:24:18
actually flipped back Democratic.



Jed:
00:24:21
Yes, I think people think that might have flipped back because of bad



Jed:
00:24:25
Republican positioning or positioning that is at odds with voters on abortion.



Jed:
00:24:30
I'm not sure of that.



Jed:
00:24:30
I'd love to see what your thoughts on.



Andy:
00:24:32
Abortion.



Andy:
00:24:34
I think, look, I'm not an expert on that race, but I will say two things.



Andy:
00:24:36
One, the Democratic candidate had a very attractive profile.



Andy:
00:24:41
It was just a terrific candidate.



Andy:
00:24:43
And then the abortion thing.



Andy:
00:24:45
Yeah.



Andy:
00:24:45
I mean, we saw, and we just saw again in Ohio, you know, Um, what last



Andy:
00:24:49
week, you know, the abortion thing.



Andy:
00:24:51
I mean, I know I thought that issue is more baked into the way



Andy:
00:24:55
people voted than it clearly is.



Andy:
00:24:56
And that like that is an albatross on the republicans and it's unclear



Andy:
00:25:01
what they do about it's kind of an interesting watching them run to the



Andy:
00:25:06
right in some ways on it, you know, DeSantis that bill he signed and so forth.



Andy:
00:25:09
I don't know what they're going to do, but it's become clear that the



Andy:
00:25:14
school of thought that row was lousy constitutional law, but a good rough



Andy:
00:25:19
approximation of where the country is.



Andy:
00:25:21
That school of thought seems to be correct.



Andy:
00:25:23
Like people, you know, people, , they were pretty comfortable with restrictions,



Andy:
00:25:32
late term, they did not want restrictions in the first trimester, and Dobbs



Andy:
00:25:36
upended that in a way that's just causing chaos, the republicans, and



Andy:
00:25:40
I don't know that they have a theory of the case for how they're going



Andy:
00:25:42
to So they get through that and per your point the elections in virginia.



Andy:
00:25:46
That'll be a major issue this fall and I asked yes five smart people around



Andy:
00:25:52
politics in virginia What's going to happen the elections in the fall and



Andy:
00:25:54
you're going to get five answers.



Andy:
00:25:56
Status quo seems to be something a lot of people think.



Andy:
00:25:59
So who knows?



Andy:
00:26:00
I don't feel like I have a good enough grasp on it to to prognosticate, but



Andy:
00:26:04
I do think you'll see the choice, the abortion choice issue will be a big



Andy:
00:26:08
issue, and it is an interesting thing.



Andy:
00:26:10
You can't miss the juxtaposition of the two parties on abortion and



Andy:
00:26:14
choice there and school choice.



Andy:
00:26:16
It is almost like reversed in a very peculiar way.



Jed:
00:26:21
Yeah, the idea that Dems are out of step with the swing voters on education



Jed:
00:26:28
issues and republicans are out of step with the swing voters on abortion issues,



Jed:
00:26:35
and how does this how does this play out?



Jed:
00:26:38
It's going to be absolutely fascinating.



Andy:
00:26:39
Well more than that though Jed, right?



Andy:
00:26:41
You've got and i'll probably get in trouble for like but the reality is



Andy:
00:26:44
like in this country if you have means Dobbs, you're going to be able to travel



Andy:
00:26:48
and so forth Like the people who are really now in a bad situation with



Andy:
00:26:53
Dobbs are like if you live in like rural Texas, you don't make a lot of money.



Andy:
00:26:58
You can't take time off from work.



Andy:
00:26:59
You can't travel because you're surrounded by states that have restrictions.



Andy:
00:27:03
That's where you start to it.



Andy:
00:27:04
And so, when you look at the data on who's going to be affected by



Andy:
00:27:06
this and the estimates and so forth, it's poor women disproportionately.



Andy:
00:27:10
And likewise on school choice, like if you're affluent, you can work around



Andy:
00:27:15
the dysfunction of the system and you can figure out, you know, people will



Andy:
00:27:18
figure out workarounds where they live or they send their kids to private school.



Andy:
00:27:23
Or even in a lot of these cities, you can find there's like, there are past



Andy:
00:27:27
there's clusters of schools and so forth.



Andy:
00:27:29
And if you're affluent, you can figure out how to take advantage of that.



Andy:
00:27:32
If you're poor.



Andy:
00:27:34
You're you know at the whim of fortune and so school choice becomes like a



Andy:
00:27:39
just an enormous issue for you, and so that juxtaposition also I just feel



Andy:
00:27:42
like people have to sit with this and both parties are in weird place, like



Andy:
00:27:50
the in terms of like their affinity for helping the poor on a particular issue.



Andy:
00:27:57
Those two issues together are very strange.



Andy:
00:27:59
Rick Hess could probably write a book about it this week.



Jed:
00:28:01
Yeah, well I think that in terms of, you know, not being a hot steaming



Jed:
00:28:06
mess, I'm not sure what exactly is making the ecosystem viable in Virginia,



Jed:
00:28:12
but we just see in so many other states where either the culture wars



Jed:
00:28:16
are just completely and utterly out of control, or there are some other things.



Andy:
00:28:20
I don't know, I mean, I hear that, but then I'm like, okay,



Andy:
00:28:23
like Tennessee obviously had tons of education culture war stuff.



Andy:
00:28:26
But they still got a new finance plan through that was really pretty good.



Andy:
00:28:32
And that happened with Billy and with all the stuff that was



Andy:
00:28:37
rolling around cultural wise.



Andy:
00:28:39
Maybe Arkansas will put this to the test cause they seem to be leaning in on



Andy:
00:28:42
some of the culture war stuff and their last legislative session, they passed



Andy:
00:28:46
an ambitious basket of education reform.



Andy:
00:28:50
So maybe they'll put this to the test.



Andy:
00:28:52
Can you sort of walk and chew gum?



Andy:
00:28:55
But I don't know that every the culture war stuff in every



Andy:
00:28:58
state has sort of ground.



Andy:
00:29:03
I think it's different in different states.



Jed:
00:29:07
Well, I think it'll be interesting to see, not just specifically on the



Jed:
00:29:09
culture war stuff, but when some of these breakthroughs have happened, and I don't



Jed:
00:29:14
think people have necessarily thought them through all in advance very well, and



Jed:
00:29:18
they don't have the system set up on the other side to take care of these things.



Jed:
00:29:22
A story that is going to be bigger and bigger is that those



Jed:
00:29:25
that went to universal vouchers.



Jed:
00:29:27
have huge challenges with the administration of their programs.



Jed:
00:29:32
All of the states that estimated how many parents would make use of a



Jed:
00:29:36
universal voucher, way underestimated.



Jed:
00:29:38
So Iowa, they have, I don't remember what it is, they have like more



Jed:
00:29:42
than twice as many people who have actually sought the charter.



Jed:
00:29:46
Now that's going to have a budgetary challenge for the state for one thing.



Jed:
00:29:49
But the other thing is just administratively, they don't know how to



Jed:
00:29:53
take care of the same thing in Arizona.



Jed:
00:29:55
Huge numbers, right?



Jed:
00:29:57
And so they're sending out voucher to program.



Jed:
00:30:01
And I'm not saying, "Oh, stop vouchers for this reason."



Jed:
00:30:03
I'm just saying that, when you have these kinds of major, major breakthroughs



Jed:
00:30:08
that happen, if you really, really care about vouchers, you would think



Jed:
00:30:12
that you also are thinking through, how are we going to make sure that the



Jed:
00:30:15
administration happens as effectively as possible in the early going?



Jed:
00:30:18
So we don't lose it because of scandal or some other, you know...



Andy:
00:30:21
We don't have that existential crisis though.



Andy:
00:30:26
It's amazing how much people want out and this should be, if you're a



Andy:
00:30:34
public school supporter and I am a public school sports, why I do a lot



Andy:
00:30:37
of what I do, like this is a crisis.



Andy:
00:30:40
And instead it's just all this bullshit about, you know, that we're hearing



Andy:
00:30:45
about what's going on and so forth.



Andy:
00:30:47
And like this, if you believe in public education as sort of



Andy:
00:30:51
a broadly supported cross class institution, this is like a really.



Andy:
00:30:56
perilous moment.



Andy:
00:30:58
And you know, everybody's like whistling past the graveyard.



Andy:
00:31:04
And like you just speak it, so Virginia on that one, I would not say things



Andy:
00:31:07
are going swimmingly, because like every time the governor points out



Andy:
00:31:10
that like our Nate, you know, scores plummeted because of pandemic policies,



Andy:
00:31:14
biggest drops in the nation that we have these huge achievement gaps.



Andy:
00:31:18
Every time we get a fight over that, is it really that bad or no, you know,



Andy:
00:31:22
he's ginning up a crisis and all this.



Andy:
00:31:24
And it's insane.



Andy:
00:31:25
You look at the data and you're like, this is an enormous problem for kids, but



Andy:
00:31:28
every time it's a big fight in the media.



Andy:
00:31:31
"Well, you know, who knows and get these stories.



Andy:
00:31:33
Well, maybe it's not so bad."



Andy:
00:31:34
I mean, you know, none of their kids are affected.



Andy:
00:31:37
And like so that part is not going swimmingly, let me tell you.



Andy:
00:31:41
And I feel like we need like, where are the groups to like help



Andy:
00:31:47
reset some of that conversation?



Andy:
00:31:49
I mean, the conversation we're basically having in Virginia is a conversation



Andy:
00:31:52
that 15 years ago, the education trust would have been at the vanguard of like



Andy:
00:31:56
we're talking about achievement gaps.



Andy:
00:31:57
We're talking about data.



Andy:
00:31:58
We're talking about how do we redo our accreditation system of schools



Andy:
00:32:02
so we can start to actually have?



Andy:
00:32:03
We don't have really have an accountability system in Virginia



Andy:
00:32:05
so we can start to actually have an accountability system.



Andy:
00:32:08
I mean, that is the conversation.



Andy:
00:32:09
And yet the groups, they are nowhere, none of the groups, and I'm not just,



Andy:
00:32:14
this is not like a critique of the trust in particular, just none of



Andy:
00:32:17
the groups and the institutions that used to be there anywhere to be found



Jed:
00:32:21
Moms for liberty..



Andy:
00:32:22
Driving that vacuum.



Andy:
00:32:24
And I think that's, and one thing I thought, like, come back to before



Andy:
00:32:27
we can talk about Moms for liberty, because people always seem to



Andy:
00:32:29
like, listen to us talk about them.



Andy:
00:32:32
You talk about rural charter schools, my kingdom for people just to



Andy:
00:32:37
organize more information about them, take people to them because it is



Andy:
00:32:41
still, I talk to you all the time.



Andy:
00:32:43
It is an article of faith.



Andy:
00:32:45
You cannot have charter schools and rural communities and you try to talk



Andy:
00:32:49
about like the exciting stuff happening in places like Idaho and so forth.



Andy:
00:32:52
And it's just.



Andy:
00:32:53
Like, there, there's just a lack of awareness and that, that complicates



Andy:
00:32:57
the already complicated rural politics that you gave voice to earlier.



Jed:
00:33:01
One of the things that we way underappreciate about rural



Jed:
00:33:06
charter schools is that you need to have different kinds of models



Jed:
00:33:09
to be able to go into those places.



Jed:
00:33:10
And often those models require a different regulatory framework.



Jed:
00:33:15
I would say that one of the strengths of the California charter school law is that



Jed:
00:33:19
we've always had this misnamed, but from a policy perspective, important status



Jed:
00:33:26
of non classroom based charter schools, non classroom based charter schools



Jed:
00:33:30
serve kids, provide less than 80% of their instruction in a classroom setting.



Jed:
00:33:36
So, a lot of these schools, the kids go to school 4 days a week,



Jed:
00:33:38
3 days a week, 2 days a week.



Jed:
00:33:40
There are a lot of classrooms, but they're called non classroom, but a lot



Jed:
00:33:43
of them end up having these resource centers that serve a relatively small



Jed:
00:33:48
number of kids, hundreds kids here, 70 kids over there, 75 kids over here,



Jed:
00:33:54
but they are all in a network, and they're all supported with each other.



Jed:
00:33:57
And what happens in rural settings when you talk about a non classroom



Jed:
00:34:00
based school coming and setting up a resource center that might serve 60 kids.



Jed:
00:34:05
You're not going to kill off the entire school district, and so



Jed:
00:34:09
there's a receptiveness there.



Andy:
00:34:11
Even with the models where kids do have to drive, I'm struck how



Andy:
00:34:14
far, and you see this in urban areas, like you'll talk to kids and they're



Andy:
00:34:17
like, Oh yeah, I'd have to take the train here and I'm on it for, you



Andy:
00:34:19
know, an hour and 15 hour and a half.



Andy:
00:34:21
Their parents though, like, and I think this is where people.



Andy:
00:34:24
in the system think like a system and they're like, Oh,



Andy:
00:34:27
no one would want to do that.



Andy:
00:34:28
It's like, no, if things aren't working well for your kid, you



Andy:
00:34:31
will put them on a bus for an hour.



Andy:
00:34:33
You will do anything you can to get your kid into a better situation, whether



Andy:
00:34:36
that's because they're having issues at the school, you know, socially,



Andy:
00:34:39
whether that's because they're, you know, they're not being challenged.



Andy:
00:34:43
The school's not working for them.



Andy:
00:34:44
They're just not learning anything, whatever it is.



Andy:
00:34:46
Parents will, like, do a lot.



Andy:
00:34:48
And if you care about public schools, you should be thinking about, okay, how



Andy:
00:34:51
do we meet those parents where they are, instead of asking them to take on these



Andy:
00:34:55
heroic journeys, if you will, um, for their kids every day or five days a week.



Jed:
00:35:01
And I think that this non classroom based concept, which I



Jed:
00:35:05
think allows parents to do things.



Jed:
00:35:07
Without the same degree of driving and heroism, is



Jed:
00:35:12
missing in most of the country.



Jed:
00:35:14
And so I'm tipping a hand here.



Jed:
00:35:16
I've really worked within the non cluster based community in California.



Jed:
00:35:19
Will someone please write something saying we need something that like



Jed:
00:35:22
this across the whole country?



Jed:
00:35:24
It's amazing.



Jed:
00:35:24
I talked to Oklahoma.



Jed:
00:35:25
They like, they really want this right now.



Jed:
00:35:27
They don't have it.



Jed:
00:35:28
Texas is just getting it.



Jed:
00:35:29
Louisiana hasn't have it had it.



Jed:
00:35:31
A lot of other places don't have it.



Jed:
00:35:33
And then they have these problems with rural schools.



Jed:
00:35:35
I really think this is a foundational thing.



Jed:
00:35:37
If we got it into the landscape, if we got it into Virginia, I think it would



Jed:
00:35:40
change the discussion in rural settings.



Andy:
00:35:42
Yeah, I like that.



Andy:
00:35:44
And maybe there is like, that's, I mean we can pretend, we



Andy:
00:35:49
can play assignment editors.



Andy:
00:35:50
You can pretend we're not we can we play one on tv.



Andy:
00:35:54
They're like because that would be a great and just looking at rural



Andy:
00:35:56
charters in general And I mean, there's just like a lot of myth



Andy:
00:35:59
busting that can be done there.



Andy:
00:36:03
But you want to talk about Moms for Liberty, I read two articles since I



Andy:
00:36:06
last saw you, Robert, like they were, you know, they met up there in Philadelphia



Andy:
00:36:11
and Robert Pondiscio and all the presidential candidates, real cattle call.



Jed:
00:36:14
Yeah, great article.



Jed:
00:36:16
Thank you for sending that to me.



Andy:
00:36:16
I thought it was interesting.



Andy:
00:36:18
There was, there's two, two big things that I saw.



Andy:
00:36:20
I'm sure there was lots of other stuff written about it, but the two that



Andy:
00:36:22
I saw that came across my desk were.



Andy:
00:36:25
Pondiscio's piece, which was certainly friendly to them.



Andy:
00:36:31
And then there was, a Daily Beast piece, we can put both these in the show



Andy:
00:36:36
notes, that was decidedly less friendly.



Andy:
00:36:38
And I thought they were kind of an interesting juxtaposition.



Andy:
00:36:41
Robert's piece, we could talk about his comparison with TFA was interesting, I



Andy:
00:36:45
think that's what I liked that part of that's worth discussing, but I think



Andy:
00:36:49
he was exceptionally friendly to them.



Andy:
00:36:52
The Daily Beast was exceptionally harsh, and I think a lot of people



Andy:
00:36:56
might think, "wow, the truth probably lies, like, somewhere in between."



Andy:
00:37:00
I'm not saying Robert was untruthful, I just think his take was very rosier



Andy:
00:37:06
and more favorable than mine would be.



Andy:
00:37:08
I just thought it was interesting and it sort of, you know, we got some



Andy:
00:37:14
feedback last time we talked about Moms for Liberty, you know, some people



Andy:
00:37:17
were like, thanks for being nuanced, but some people were like, oh my



Andy:
00:37:19
God, how can you like, say anything, anything at all good about them.



Andy:
00:37:25
And it struck me that's kind of like the times we're in, right?



Andy:
00:37:29
Like there's just not that sort of gray is really hard.



Andy:
00:37:35
It's really hard to get at.



Jed:
00:37:37
Well, I thought the article was interesting for a lot of reasons



Jed:
00:37:39
but I particularly focused in on the conflict between the national



Jed:
00:37:43
parents union and Moms for Liberty and they're supposedly on opposite sides



Jed:
00:37:47
and they're talking trash about each other and all of that, okay, great.



Jed:
00:37:50
But if you look at the data that they're getting through their serving.



Jed:
00:37:56
They are finding that parents in general vote and voters are just completely and



Jed:
00:38:01
utterly fed up with public education.



Jed:
00:38:02
It's going back to the point that you just made earlier about the



Jed:
00:38:04
level of crisis that we have.



Jed:
00:38:06
NPU, I know they have some new data coming out, it may have come out this



Jed:
00:38:12
week, I'm not sure, I'm talking about Parents recognize, I don't remember



Jed:
00:38:16
the exact numbers strikingly high in the high sixties or something



Jed:
00:38:20
like that, believing that there is a crisis in public education.



Jed:
00:38:23
And then, interestingly, on the side, they also identified improving



Jed:
00:38:28
public education as the second most important issue to voters, which is



Jed:
00:38:34
something we just don't see very often.



Jed:
00:38:35
So they're coming at it from very different standpoints and there may



Jed:
00:38:39
be aspects of what both of them are doing that we don't like, but they're



Jed:
00:38:42
both tapping into something that feels very foundational and very true.



Andy:
00:38:48
Yeah, I think so, and maybe it's so hot and a lot of that, I watched



Andy:
00:38:51
a lot of that back and forth and it's like that just strikes me that



Andy:
00:38:53
that's a lot of that's adult politics.



Andy:
00:38:55
I have trouble seeing the through line to kids, just in the whole back and forth



Andy:
00:39:02
with, but there's more agreement out there on a lot of this stuff, and in some ways,



Andy:
00:39:08
maybe that makes the debate hotter, right?



Andy:
00:39:11
I mean, you and I talked about this, like, Moms for Liberty, their position,



Andy:
00:39:15
like, you know, schools shouldn't be concealing transitions of kids from their



Andy:
00:39:19
parents, like, That's like a very popular position in this country, like 80%.



Andy:
00:39:24
And I think the Democrats are starting to realize that they're



Andy:
00:39:27
way over their skis on that one.



Andy:
00:39:30
But so is treat kids, treat every kid with respect and dignity and



Andy:
00:39:33
try to have inclusion and tolerance.



Andy:
00:39:36
That's where people are.



Andy:
00:39:37
There's a hardcore group that's not there, but they're small.



Andy:
00:39:40
Thankfully.



Andy:
00:39:41
We've made a lot of progress in this country.



Andy:
00:39:44
You can go down the issues, whether it's, you know, sexual content in books,



Andy:
00:39:50
whether it's just a host of these issues, there's actually, you know, you look,



Andy:
00:39:56
there's just tons of common ground.



Andy:
00:39:58
And I will put in the show notes, we wrote a report called common ground that



Andy:
00:40:01
has lots of this data, but like there really is, you just look like people, you



Andy:
00:40:04
know, people don't need convincing that there's a problem with race and racism in



Andy:
00:40:10
America and historically like you get this hardcore group on both sides, like one



Andy:
00:40:15
side saying nobody actually believes that.



Andy:
00:40:17
And the other side, you know, saying it's not a thing, but those are the



Andy:
00:40:20
margins, like most Americans are there and it's issue after issue.



Andy:
00:40:24
And so a little bit that may add to the heat because there's fundamentally so much



Andy:
00:40:29
less disagreement there than people would think when you get outside the advocates.



Andy:
00:40:34
And so they're vying for these different groups are vying for slices



Andy:
00:40:37
of sort of elite coalitions and elite attention, and it's kind of divorced



Andy:
00:40:41
from what's actually going on in terms of how people are living their lives.



Jed:
00:40:46
One thing that we can return to in the future.



Jed:
00:40:48
I'd really love to pick your brain on this, given that we have this level



Jed:
00:40:51
of, I've been calling this the great disconnect, I saw this, you know, several



Jed:
00:40:55
years back, just that the overlap between what public education was offering and



Jed:
00:41:00
the bare minimum that parents would exist with would accept was becoming



Jed:
00:41:05
smaller and smaller such that there would be maybe no overlap whatsoever I think



Jed:
00:41:09
that's what we're, coming into and just many many parents just leaving right?



Andy:
00:41:14
With the pandemic I think did we can talk about this another time the



Andy:
00:41:17
pandemic did like, there's a thing that we called like, you know, path dependency,



Andy:
00:41:23
talking about political science.



Andy:
00:41:24
So when things are on, basically on a path, they tend to proceed on



Andy:
00:41:28
that path until they're disrupted and the pandemic disrupts.



Andy:
00:41:31
There's a lot of path dependency.



Andy:
00:41:32
People are like, "Oh, it might be nice to have a different school



Andy:
00:41:34
or do something different."



Andy:
00:41:35
But like, this is how our life is structured.



Andy:
00:41:37
This is what we do.



Andy:
00:41:37
This is the school.



Andy:
00:41:38
And the pandemic opened up like a lot of possibilities.



Andy:
00:41:42
For a lot of people, particularly people with means there's a obvious



Andy:
00:41:46
class overlay this whole thing.



Andy:
00:41:48
And I think we're seeing the effects of that in people's like,



Andy:
00:41:53
you can be more dissatisfied now you can actually act on that.



Andy:
00:41:58
I don't think the public school establishment has come to terms with



Andy:
00:42:02
that, they're still telling themselves these happy stories, they're picking



Andy:
00:42:06
these fights on other stuff and I don't think they are, I don't think



Andy:
00:42:10
they've actually really come to terms with what a perilous moment it is.



Jed:
00:42:14
And for people like ourselves who have pretty much anchored ourselves



Jed:
00:42:18
in our entire professional life around the support of public education, and



Jed:
00:42:22
there's some place beyond publicness that we just don't go, vouchers,



Jed:
00:42:28
I think, is going to be something we're going to have to revisit



Jed:
00:42:32
because this is just happening now.



Jed:
00:42:35
And if we want to say that we're interested in public education, but we



Jed:
00:42:40
have nothing to say about how vouchers and private quote unquote private



Jed:
00:42:45
education happens, we're just basically going to write ourselves out of the



Jed:
00:42:49
conversation for generations to come.



Jed:
00:42:52
This is the direction that things are going.



Jed:
00:42:54
And there are ways that these programs can be set up to be more or less public.



Jed:
00:42:59
The thumb on the scale of the kids who need better education more than others.



Jed:
00:43:04
And we can either, just wash your hands of it, and if we do, I think



Jed:
00:43:08
that will mean that these programs will evolve to be less supportive



Jed:
00:43:12
of kids who need it most, right?



Jed:
00:43:15
If we involve ourselves, I think, can make sure that these things



Jed:
00:43:19
actually, become a positive thing.



Jed:
00:43:22
But our voice is going to be needed for that kind of positive thing to happen.



Andy:
00:43:28
Yeah, we need, we need pragmatism, right?



Andy:
00:43:29
You remember when back in like 2000, Al Gore called himself a pragmatic idealist,



Andy:
00:43:35
and he got a load of crap because that guy could never catch a break, but it's



Andy:
00:43:39
actually, it's a great formulation.



Andy:
00:43:40
Like you want to, we should maintain our ideals and our idealism around this



Andy:
00:43:44
stuff, but you also need to be pragmatic.



Andy:
00:43:45
And you are totally right.



Andy:
00:43:46
Like where we are, we need to meet people where they are.



Andy:
00:43:49
And to the extent we don't.



Andy:
00:43:51
Public education is going to lose a lot of its supporters and the system still seems,



Andy:
00:43:55
you know, just really fixed on trying to alienate people and annoy them with



Andy:
00:43:59
just a host of policies that complicate what people want and how they want to



Andy:
00:44:04
live their lives and what they expect.



Andy:
00:44:06
And I just think it's incredibly ill timed right now with everything going on.



Andy:
00:44:13
And we didn't even get to like learning loss, you've got this like



Andy:
00:44:16
enormous backdrop of just catastrophe.



Andy:
00:44:21
For a lot of kids, people are also not sort of squarely looking at it.



Jed:
00:44:25
For sure.



Jed:
00:44:26
Well, lots of stuff to keep talking about.



Jed:
00:44:28
We'll be back together in a couple of weeks for our mystery guests.



Andy:
00:44:30
And yeah, and there we can really get into our mystery guests are



Andy:
00:44:33
going to like T us up to really get into some of these questions around



Andy:
00:44:37
parental empowerment and what's going on in some of these different groups.



Andy:
00:44:41
So their take on all this will be, I think they will bring interesting



Andy:
00:44:47
perspectives and it'll be fascinating.



Jed:
00:44:49
And so then we'll either take a hiatus.



Jed:
00:44:51
Or I'll join you from halfway through the Camino for one.



Andy:
00:44:56
Yeah, no, I'm going to want to hear about that.



Andy:
00:44:57
We may need to just do a special one on that.



Andy:
00:45:00
What an amazing experience.



Andy:
00:45:01
I'm so happy that you all can do that in 25 years.



Andy:
00:45:04
That's great.



Andy:
00:45:05
That's a huge accomplishment.



Jed:
00:45:06
Well, we're excited to be doing it.



Jed:
00:45:08
And I'm just delighted to have this chance to do this stuff with you, Andy.



Jed:
00:45:12
So I look forward to continuing and look forward to seeing you



Jed:
00:45:15
again in a couple of weeks.



Andy:
00:45:16
Yeah, I will too, Jed.



Andy:
00:45:17
I'll see you in two weeks.



Andy:
00:45:19
It was great to see you.



Jed:
00:45:19
Okay.



Jed:
00:45:20
Take care.