WEBVTT
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00:01:04.719I think what we're finding from a lot of students facing futures that are uncertain.
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00:01:06.000So what are the skill sets?
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00:01:06.799What are the learning?
00:01:06.879 -->
00:01:12.400What's the critical knowledge bases that they can have so they can be adaptive in diverse and changing futures?
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00:01:18.079We're seeing a lot of students who are saying, I don't know what I'll be doing in five years, in seven years, in ten years.
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00:01:20.000There's going to be jobs we don't even know about.
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00:01:28.319So how do you get the skills that give you this kind of diverse web of opportunity rather than just sort of pushing people through in a more linear pathway?
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00:01:30.719And I think that's one of the strengths of a university.
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00:01:42.079Hello everyone, I am Jess Chapman and this is Wired to Work, a podcast about making work work better for everyone.
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00:01:43.439My guest today is Dr.
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00:01:50.560Ashley Consolo, who's the provost and vice president academic, where she's responsible for shaping the learning experience of the students.
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00:01:55.359And she's really looked at the intersection of education and community needs and real work.
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00:01:58.079And so I wanted to have Ashley on the programme.
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00:02:03.519Well, firstly, because I think she's fascinating and has wonderful opinions on all kinds of things that I want to ask about.
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00:02:14.159But also to have the conversation about education and how we think about education as not just about content and credentials, but how do we actually prepare people for the world of work today?
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00:02:22.240And how do we ensure that we're not just giving people the technical skills they might need to do the work, but also have the skills they need to navigate the world that we are currently living in.
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00:02:23.599So that was the plan.
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00:02:26.159And Ashley and I are going to chat and we'll see what she has to say.
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00:02:27.280So welcome, Ashley.
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00:02:29.840Oh, so looking forward to this chat, Jess.
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00:02:31.039Really happy to be here.
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00:02:36.639So tell us a bit more about your role now because people might not know what a provost is or what that actually means.
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00:02:38.639So tell us about what you do and why you do it.
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00:02:39.199Yeah.
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00:02:45.120So the provost and vice president academic is the person who runs the academic sector of the university.
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00:02:47.120So that's all the academic programming.
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00:02:53.520It's anything to do with faculty, with staff, with students, with the academic and educational mission of the university.
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00:03:03.599So I'm second to the president, and we work closely together on supporting what universities are, what they can be, what they should be, what are the changing nature of universities right now.
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00:03:05.199We're at a critical point.
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00:03:14.159And then really looking inward and working with students, staff, and faculty on supporting and designing what they want and need and what they're looking for in a university education.
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00:03:20.719So I've been here for about 21 months now and uh so still relatively new in the position, but uh it's it's been wonderful.
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00:03:33.759It's been a wonderful transition to come to Acadia and move into this role and kind of be able to work with such a diverse um sector of people that are all looking at the educational futures and how we create better opportunities for students as they move through our system and beyond.
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00:03:38.639So you just said that we're a point of inflection, I guess, for where we are.
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00:03:40.080So tell us maybe more about that.
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00:03:45.520Yeah, I mean it's really interesting time to be in university education in general.
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00:03:51.759We have so many things that are happening in Canada and around the world, but in Canada, we have the changing international student enrollment.
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00:03:57.199So that's really impacted a huge amount of universities across the country, which also impacts budget.
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00:04:00.560We have a lot of fiscal challenges, we have changing demographics.
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00:04:07.840Um, in Nova Scotia, we have 10 universities, and we're a small province, and our demographics are changing, so we face particular issues there.
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00:04:15.919We have um changing relationships with governments and governments that are looking for different things from post-secondary, both at the college and the university level.
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00:04:25.040And importantly, I think we have a whole cohort of students that are coming in now that are looking for very different experiences from university and are facing a very different world.
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00:04:30.720Um, we also have the challenge of artificial intelligence and all the generative AI models and what that does.
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00:04:33.680That's a huge challenge to post-secondary education.
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00:04:37.439And then we have the challenge for a lot of universities, they've been here for a very long time.
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00:04:41.120We're almost 200 years old and sort of another decade and a bit.
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00:04:45.120So it's a long time, and they're slower moving institutions and other places.
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00:04:47.519They're very different than sort of being in the private sector.
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00:04:49.439So there's kind of that you need both.
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00:04:55.120So you need this sort of the longevity and you need the flexibility and the responsiveness and the nimbleness at the same time.
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00:04:57.519Yeah, I've never really thought of it like that.
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00:05:02.079So my mother was in worked in a university for a long portion of her career.
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00:05:07.920Um, and we spent a lot of time talking about the flexibility side of the university dynamic, right?
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00:05:16.800Like, how do you ensure that you are meeting the needs of industry, creating the skill set for people to have, you know, meaningful careers?
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00:05:25.600Um, but that idea of the legacy knowledge institution and that may the community anchor, I think that's a really interesting way to think about it.
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00:05:38.800And I saw something, and I can't remember where I saw it, uh, the other day, around actually, is it universities' role to produce people who are educated for industry, or is it the university's role to create people who are educated full stop?
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00:05:44.720Like what where do we go with kind of education and what is the role of an of a university?
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00:05:47.279So there's really I never never thought about that longevity base.
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00:05:48.000It's very interesting.
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00:05:50.959Yeah, and it's something that you have to balance all the time, right?
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00:06:03.600Like you really have to think about, and I think that's one of the critical questions because we are getting a lot of pressure from governments across the country that are focused on job readiness, um career readiness, getting people into industries that are important to the country.
00:06:03.759 -->
00:06:05.360And all of that is really, really important.
00:06:05.519 -->
00:06:10.000But I think what we're finding from a lot of students is what they're looking for more.
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00:06:22.639I mean, obviously jobs are important, but they're asking for us to provide the opportunity for them to live and learn and connect and create community and then develop the skills in that learning that make them flexible and adaptable.
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00:06:27.040So like facing futures that are uncertain, very, very uncertain right now.
00:06:27.279 -->
00:06:28.480So, what are the skill sets?
00:06:28.560 -->
00:06:29.279What are the learning?
00:06:29.360 -->
00:06:35.360What's the critical knowledge bases that they can have so they can be adaptive in diverse and changing futures?
00:06:35.519 -->
00:06:47.120Um, so you know, we're seeing a lot of students who are saying, I don't know what I'll be doing in five years and seven years and ten years, the industry is training so much, my interests are changing, there's gonna be jobs we don't even know about.
00:06:47.439 -->
00:06:55.680So, how do you get the skills that give you this kind of diverse web of opportunity rather than just sort of pushing people through and in a more linear pathway?
00:06:55.920 -->
00:06:57.920And I think that's one of the strengths of a university.
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00:06:58.240Yeah.
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00:07:09.199I think that actually makes a whole lot of sense because from my perspective, thinking about the people in and work, teaching you the technical pieces you need to do the job.
00:07:09.439 -->
00:07:14.000Now that might be very different if you're doing a very technical role in something like you know, construction.
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00:07:18.160Um, but what I'm looking for is someone who can think, right?
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00:07:31.360I'm looking for someone who can critically think, who can solve problems, who can look at data and go, that makes sense to me, that doesn't, those two things don't line up, has initiative, knows how to work across different like learning agility.
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00:07:33.600So I can take what I learned over here and apply it over there.
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00:07:34.000Yeah.
00:07:34.079 -->
00:07:36.800And those are the type of skills that people are really asking for, right?
00:07:36.879 -->
00:07:43.519That the students who are currently in the system and students who are coming in are saying, how do you, how do you set me up for those future ready skills?
00:07:43.680 -->
00:07:46.240What's the the future um resiliencies?
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00:07:47.360What are the pieces that I need?
00:07:47.519 -->
00:07:54.639And a lot of people too are talking about emotional intelligence, emotional regulation, like even looking for that in the university system as well.
00:07:54.800 -->
00:08:03.360And that's been an interesting challenge for faculty within kind of the universities where you're you're teaching and you're doing your disciplines or your knowledge or your courses.
00:08:03.519 -->
00:08:06.399And then students are asking for the pieces around it as well.
00:08:06.560 -->
00:08:08.240And like what will that look like?
00:08:08.399 -->
00:08:10.160So yeah, it's an interesting time.
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00:08:29.680And I think um we're also facing kind of this inflection point where students are even trying to figure out if they want to go to university sometimes because with everything and how fast it's moving, do you spend four years with housing crisis, with food security, with rising costs, with all of the things happening and global um challenges and issues with our neighbors to the south, with climate change?
00:08:29.920 -->
00:08:31.279There's so many pieces.
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00:08:39.120So then they think, do I spend four years in this critical time going to school, or do I spend four years doing something else?
00:08:39.360 -->
00:08:52.639And I think that's the responsibility that universities really need to show that we can actually be part of the solution space and we will be responsive to that rather than having students feel it's a choice to just skip us and they'll be, you know, okay to develop the skills.
00:08:52.720 -->
00:08:59.440So, how do we bring ourselves back into that conversation and show that we are actually active and responsible players at this moment in time?
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00:09:05.200Well, yeah, and there's there is so much more to the premise of a university, too, right?
00:09:05.360 -->
00:09:26.960So you you're almost you're almost suggesting we are decoupling to some extent the worlds that our university to do with research and knowledge generation and knowledge mobilization, and then the pieces that are around programming and education and upskilling, and that maybe they look completely different in the future than they've looked today.
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00:09:37.200Uh, and rather than picking my course, like I'm I'm identifying the skills that I need generically rather than I'm doing a particular discipline or a particular program, right?
00:09:37.279 -->
00:09:47.279Instead of going and doing business as I did, or going like my son's considering and going doing welding somewhere, he's actually just learning the skills that he's gonna need to survive in a world that's consistently uncertain.
00:09:47.519 -->
00:09:47.840Yeah.
00:09:47.919 -->
00:09:51.840And I think in some ways it's actually the integration of research more tightly in.
00:09:51.919 -->
00:09:57.120Um, so rather than a decoupling, it's actually students bringing that in because they want to learn those skills.
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00:10:09.840They want to know how to discover and develop and then test and then understand knowledge, a huge amount around how do you know what misinformation and disinformation is versus what is research versus uh discovery.
00:10:09.919 -->
00:10:13.039And so all of those pieces I think actually come more in.
00:10:13.120 -->
00:10:17.759Like right now, they're they're fairly well integrated, but I think it's actually a time for for more.
00:10:18.159 -->
00:10:27.600Uh, and then sort of an integration of other pieces in there as well around how do you be like the the whole human approach to education that so many people are looking for right now.
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00:10:30.159So a small job for you then.
00:10:30.559 -->
00:10:31.919Yes, yeah, it's great.
00:10:32.080 -->
00:10:35.360But it's great, you know, it's it's an interesting point in time.
00:10:35.440 -->
00:10:50.879And it's it's uh it's a real privilege actually to be in the sector at this time because you can see how fast things are changing, you can see what students are looking for, you see what's happening in the workforce, and you actually get to be part of this really um intense and and and uncertain moment.
00:10:51.120 -->
00:10:59.759But it's it's actually a really special place because you can start to support students and you can start to shift systems that slowly over time can actually move.
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00:11:02.240And and in many ways, we need to move very quickly.
00:11:02.399 -->
00:11:04.960And that's not something universities are are used to doing.
00:11:05.039 -->
00:11:09.840So yeah, so you can kind of work with people to to find a new pathway forward, which is very exciting.
00:11:10.080 -->
00:11:14.080Yeah, it's the it reminds me of the chaos portion, the middle of change, right?
00:11:14.240 -->
00:11:15.679Like it always feels like it's the messiest.
00:11:16.000 -->
00:11:17.120It's a messy middle, yeah.
00:11:17.360 -->
00:11:18.480Yeah, the messy middle, exactly.
00:11:18.559 -->
00:11:24.879And you get but that's when the insight comes in and people have the new ideas and they play with the concepts and they shape the new thing.
00:11:25.039 -->
00:11:27.440So yeah, but very int very interesting time.
00:11:28.080 -->
00:11:31.360So where are you on the work in question then?
00:11:31.440 -->
00:11:38.080So in terms of prepping, so I'm merrily sitting here with someone who runs a business thinking we need to produce people to go and do work, but do we?
00:11:38.240 -->
00:11:46.879Like, is that is that the like where's the biggest gap that you see between kind of what education currently does and what work currently wants?
00:11:47.279 -->
00:11:50.240Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it actually goes back to what you were saying.
00:11:50.399 -->
00:11:57.279Like there's certain amounts of technical skills or specialized knowledge or disciplinary approaches that people are looking for.
00:11:57.519 -->
00:12:00.159But a lot of it is actually the other, the pieces.
00:12:00.320 -->
00:12:01.200Can you critically think?
00:12:01.360 -->
00:12:02.559Can you transfer knowledge?
00:12:02.639 -->
00:12:03.919Um, can you evaluate?
00:12:04.080 -->
00:12:06.000Do you understand how to communicate with people?
00:12:06.159 -->
00:12:07.440Can you build relationships?
00:12:07.600 -->
00:12:08.720Where do you stand in the world?
00:12:08.879 -->
00:12:10.480Like, how do you articulate yourselves?
00:12:10.559 -->
00:12:17.519Like all of that I think is what people are are really looking for and what a lot of professors and faculty are putting in classes.
00:12:17.679 -->
00:12:26.159And then, of course, there's lots of add-ons, like there's lots of student um clubs and societies that are set up to support students doing that and work readiness pieces.
00:12:26.240 -->
00:12:30.879And most universities have a co-op and experiential learning sector, so they do a lot of that.
00:12:31.120 -->
00:12:35.679But I think that some of the gap is that some of those skills are actually shifting a little bit.
00:12:35.759 -->
00:12:43.600Um, and when people are trying to figure out who they are in the world, uh, where they belong, what their place is at this moment in time, how do you sense make?
00:12:43.679 -->
00:12:46.639Like there's there's so much to make sense of right now.
00:12:46.799 -->
00:12:47.679How do you do that?
00:12:47.840 -->
00:12:51.120And I think that's some of the pieces that we're we're shifting.
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00:13:04.960Um, my own work within sort of climate change and mental health and ecological grief, we're seeing a ton of students across the country and really asking for this to be embedded into curriculum, to be actually in all of their climate change courses and their environmental courses.
00:13:05.279 -->
00:13:12.799We're looking at more students asking for things around how do you um manage emotional regulation when you're dealing with hard subject areas.
00:13:13.039 -->
00:13:17.519A lot of the health programs are changing to include more trauma-informed approaches.
00:13:17.679 -->
00:13:26.960So you can see sort of as students shift and change and as society shifts and change, then curriculum that's then preparing people to go into the job market is shifting and changing as well.
00:13:27.200 -->
00:13:30.960And then that slowly over time changes the job market as well.
00:13:31.120 -->
00:13:55.840And so it's it, we are in this sort of cyclical feedback in many ways with what's happening in society with labor and work and professional areas, and then people that changes, and then we have to respond, and vice versa, while simultaneously keeping this kind of legacy and longevity of what's the critical knowledge generation over generation to pass on, while simultaneously, what are the things that ebb and flow with societal pieces?
00:13:56.000 -->
00:14:00.799Um, I want to come back to the co-regulation piece because I think that's a really interesting point.
00:14:01.120 -->
00:14:13.519So in my world, much of the research that I see suggests that the younger generations who are coming into the workplace today feel more stressed and more burnt out than the generations that went before them.
00:14:13.679 -->
00:14:17.120And I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on that in terms of do you agree with that?
00:14:17.200 -->
00:14:18.799Do you and why does it happen?
00:14:18.960 -->
00:14:20.159What do we do about it?
00:14:20.480 -->
00:14:45.120Yeah, we we certainly see this in universities across the country and and I would say elsewhere as well, but certainly in Canada, there's a very clear understanding that students are coming in with a lot more anxiety, stress, um, a lot more pieces around accessible learning, accommodations, um, pieces that are um sometimes, well, oftentimes a lot of universities don't have enough supports to support the people that are coming in.
00:14:45.360 -->
00:14:57.440And I think we're really facing a time too where um the younger generation and the mental health stigmas have really dissipated compared to say my generation or between myself and and my kids' generation.
00:14:57.679 -->
00:15:01.759And I I hear them all talking in such a way that it is so normalized.
00:15:01.840 -->
00:15:09.120Um, and things are so everyone is of their sort of, so I have a 16, a 21-year-old, and a 19-year-old, and another 21-year-old.
00:15:09.279 -->
00:15:16.159Um, so the way that people are talking about things is so different, and then their expectations for education is so different.
00:15:16.240 -->
00:15:24.559Uh, and then their expectations within the structure and the system in terms of support for burnout and depression and anxiety and all those pieces is changing.
00:15:24.639 -->
00:15:27.840And then when they enter into the workforce, then you see that as well.
00:15:28.000 -->
00:15:33.679Um, also a big move towards a different work-life balance, uh, and that includes while you're in school.
00:15:33.759 -->
00:15:36.639And so it's it's while you're in school and it's when you graduate.
00:15:36.879 -->
00:15:43.840And I think there's a really different understanding of people's relationship to school and work than than there has been in previous times.
00:15:44.000 -->
00:16:00.080And I it's going to be interesting to see how that continues to change, both as global, local, national pressures continue, but also with the advent of AI and where things are going and how that will change the nature of work and then the the nature of education and how all those pieces will come.
00:16:00.399 -->
00:16:02.720So yeah, it it will really change.
00:16:02.879 -->
00:16:08.320And I think there'll be a real responsiveness um in the systems as everyone's kind of grappling with these pieces.
00:16:08.559 -->
00:16:25.840But yeah, we do see a very different um generational understanding of why they're going to university, what they want out of it, what they want from work-life balance, what they want from um, you know, the emotional regulation pieces, what they want for supports, and then what types of futures do they imagine when they leave.
00:16:26.080 -->
00:16:50.399Yeah, and I think that we then see the tension that happens when they show up in a workplace that isn't led by their generation, but led by the generations that went before them who have a different understanding of what support for stress, burn air, mental health, et cetera, should look like, what work-life balance even means, because it's very different from generation to generation, and we get some of the generational stereotypes and attitudes and things around them.
00:16:50.559 -->
00:16:51.919How do we move the dial?
00:16:52.080 -->
00:16:58.080Because I think it's preparing the folks coming into work to know you aren't going to experience quite what you might want.
00:16:58.240 -->
00:17:05.680We also need to move the dial over here and say, just because that's how you've done it for the last however many years, does not mean that's the right way for doing it going forwards.
00:17:05.920 -->
00:17:07.039Do you have thoughts?
00:17:07.519 -->
00:17:25.200Yeah, I mean, it's this is an active conversation among students right now, too, is is um looking for how when they leave the university system, do they have the skills to communicate their particular needs and their particular understandings of the world and why they have that.
00:17:25.279 -->
00:17:36.559So as they start to move into different types of sectors and workplaces that they can actually articulate and explain the pieces and explain and actually start to push against systems.
00:17:36.720 -->
00:17:40.480But it is really interesting, like we we see it within universities too, right?
00:17:40.559 -->
00:17:48.960There's a very clear generational um change in understanding of like how much you work and and how much you give to the job, right?
00:17:49.039 -->
00:17:51.119It's always like, what do I, what do I give?
00:17:51.279 -->
00:17:54.000How much is my life versus how much is is work?
00:17:54.319 -->
00:18:03.279Um, so I do think some of it is about students learning to articulate, well, first to understand um the systems of work in general.
00:18:03.440 -->
00:18:09.359Uh, you know, all universities have a lot of different courses that teach you to look at systems and labor and histories and pieces.
00:18:09.440 -->
00:18:11.039So, so where are we fitting in now?
00:18:11.200 -->
00:18:12.400Where do they fit in now?
00:18:12.559 -->
00:18:21.759And then how do you sort of start to change the system once you're in it while simultaneously, you know, maybe explaining that it won't change super, super quickly.
00:18:21.920 -->
00:18:29.519I know a lot of the career development folks are are doing that, like where they'll sort of say, you know, you want to change the system and you're but here's some of the things to expect.
00:18:29.759 -->
00:18:44.480Um, a lot of the the business student societies do things like that and they have mentors, and there'll be open conversations about what to expect when you get in the workforce and um what other people's expectations versus your expectations might be, and and how do you kind of bring them into alignment?
00:18:44.559 -->
00:18:47.599And how do you learn to grow and challenge and push yourself?
00:18:47.759 -->
00:18:52.400But also, are there certain pieces that you need to actually articulate and how do you do that?
00:18:52.559 -->
00:18:56.799So yeah, it's an interesting, it's always there's always a generational shift, you know.
00:18:56.880 -->
00:18:58.400There's there's that amazing.
00:18:58.480 -->
00:19:05.119I I wish I could remember the quote offhand, but it's it people always share it uh and it it's Socrates, but it sounds like it's right now.
00:19:05.200 -->
00:19:14.160It's like the younger generation is lazy and they're not studying and they're out of touch, and it's like, oh, it's from the now, and then it's you know, thousands of years ago.
00:19:14.480 -->
00:19:22.799So I think we have always this kind of generation that the older generation looks at the younger generation in a particular light, and vice versa.
00:19:23.519 -->
00:19:33.440So, but I think now there's this kind of a little bit of an acceleration in certain areas as as the two are colliding on some some tension areas, particularly around that work-life balance.
00:19:33.599 -->
00:19:33.839Yeah.
00:19:34.079 -->
00:19:42.079I think and I think some of the tensions, I mean, you think about the hippie generation, like that was totally pushing back on all the things that went before.
00:19:42.240 -->
00:19:46.000Um, and that's how worlds move and things change and we make improvement.
00:19:46.160 -->
00:19:49.519Um, so a lot of that was to do with how the universities and students are tackling it.
00:19:49.680 -->
00:19:54.240What are your thoughts for those of us who are in the in the workplace?
00:19:54.480 -->
00:20:04.559How do we make it feel like a more intentional approach so that a student doesn't come out of university and find themselves walking into something that they don't know how to navigate?
00:20:04.880 -->
00:20:19.200I think part of it is having those a lot of uh the students that are going through now really value kind of the the communication and the dialogue and the ability to sort of state where where you are and where other people are.
00:20:19.440 -->
00:20:30.000I think sometimes, and what I've heard from students too often is they'll walk into a workplace and no one sort of, it's like here's your job, but not here's the expectations of the workplace.
00:20:30.160 -->
00:20:33.200So it's like these are your tasks, this is your role, this is what you'll do.
00:20:33.279 -->
00:20:39.519But then there's sort of this like hidden norm of a community or a hidden sort of part of being in that place.
00:20:39.759 -->
00:20:47.200And people are not saying, you know, you might want to think about this or you might this or lots of people work through lunch and leave early, like all the all the things.
00:20:47.359 -->
00:20:49.759And so I think that's a part of it as well.
00:20:49.920 -->
00:20:55.920Um, and I think having the space for this generation to also change the workplace.
00:20:56.000 -->
00:21:06.559Um, that instead of there sort of being this tension sometimes, that could it actually be a generative space where people talk and then find another, another way that kind of supports different different approaches.
00:21:06.799 -->
00:21:17.759And also there's that fluidity of, you know, work from home and work remotely, and why can't I work and then take six hours off and then work all night long, like those type of conversations too?
00:21:17.920 -->
00:21:29.200So, like what sort of flexible structures can be set up to accommodate different approaches to the work, but still doing the same thing, still bringing the same productivity, still bringing the same output, but just looks different.
00:21:29.359 -->
00:21:32.480And that's not possible all the time in workplaces, but sometimes it is.
00:21:32.559 -->
00:21:36.079And so having some of those conversations about changing expectations.
00:21:36.240 -->
00:21:41.200And then what are the things that you really that must be as they are, you know, just be really clear on that.
00:21:41.599 -->
00:21:42.559Not moving the doll on that.
00:21:43.200 -->
00:21:43.519This is it.
00:21:46.079 -->
00:21:47.519I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me.
00:21:47.599 -->
00:21:50.799I mean, the the unwritten rules around workplaces, we've talked about that.
00:21:50.880 -->
00:21:54.160This that's not a disgeneration thing by any stretch of the imagination.
00:21:54.240 -->
00:21:59.759Um we actually ended up doing a program for TechNel about how work works, which was for new.
00:22:00.319 -->
00:22:07.119grads and it talked about like what exactly does HR do, for example, and what you know what's their role in the world?
00:22:07.200 -->
00:22:11.039Because everybody assumes you understand what HR is there for, but not everybody does.
00:22:11.200 -->
00:22:14.079And we talked about like things like accommodation and what is an accommodation?
00:22:14.240 -->
00:22:19.839An accommodation, there's like rules around accommodating and it's not just okay, well, I like to do this thing.
00:22:19.920 -->
00:22:23.519So you must accommodate me, but how do we actually do those things?
00:22:23.680 -->
00:22:26.640But the language is out there with that always the understanding around it.
00:22:26.720 -->
00:22:38.480And we do, I mean, I would say consistently, when I look at all of the organizations we work with, including mine, the one area that I know we don't do a brilliant job on and that is consistently a gap is onboarding.
00:22:38.559 -->
00:22:38.720Right.
00:22:38.799 -->
00:22:43.519So we do the you got your computer, you got your desk, you showed up, there's some pens in the cupboard.
00:22:43.599 -->
00:22:44.960This is Frank if you've got any questions.
00:22:45.039 -->
00:22:46.079That's the coffee machine.
00:22:46.160 -->
00:22:50.319I'll take you around oh if the fire alarm goes off go stand over there and I'll check in with you in a week's time.
00:22:51.039 -->
00:22:57.279There isn't really still a whole lot of time spent on let's talk about what kind of things will help you thrive here.
00:22:57.920 -->
00:22:59.599Like how do people show up here?
00:23:00.000 -->
00:23:01.200What's our culture?
00:23:01.359 -->
00:23:18.079You know, what are the unwritten yeses and the unwritten no's of the organization and then to your point are we willing as the people that run the organization to be clear and say this is on this is a written fixed thing because assuming this is a because and it's not just a personal preference these things are up for grab.
00:23:18.160 -->
00:23:33.440So if you push on back on that, yes I'm happy I'm happy to have the conversation, happy to talk to yeah absolutely and creating sort of those spaces where people can bring those things to bear into the conversation, but also know the parameters under which the conversations can happen in the first place.
00:23:33.519 -->
00:23:44.319You know, but I I agree with even in universities like we were doing um a whole series of student consultations for the last year over kind of what they're looking for and programs and structures and what we can do better.
00:23:44.559 -->
00:23:52.000And uh a number of students talked about they want like a course when you come in on how to student like student as an as an action word.
00:23:52.160 -->
00:24:38.960And when you leave you have a course on how to adult how to work yeah so first you need to student and then you need to adult but it was around that it was like having like what are the actual things like tell us the parameters um and there is a lot versus like you know there's a big focus right now on comfort in general which I find really interesting like everybody wants to be comfortable and it's like it's not real no and comfort is not in whose comfort and like you know all of those pieces but having that conversation explicitly that you were just saying around just because you might want something or you might prefer something it doesn't mean that that's going to happen and that's okay like the that that it is okay that you are not a hundred percent happy you're a hundred percent comfortable and then actually when you're uncomfortable sometimes that's the places where learning and growth happen.
00:24:39.359 -->
00:24:41.119That that bit that I find fascinating.
00:24:41.200 -->
00:24:42.559So I say exactly the same thing.
00:24:42.720 -->
00:24:53.440There is a prevalence in fact um I had a conversation maybe two years ago with a client that was getting an inordinate number of complaints around stress and burnout.
00:24:53.680 -->
00:25:13.519And from our perspective we were looking at it and going I don't see anything systemically that is off here like your workloads are not high you're not doing like your leadership's pretty decent like no one's guiling anybody and yet people were coming forward saying like I'm burnt out and I got to take time off and I'm like it can't be it can't be every single person's resilience level is low.
00:25:13.599 -->
00:25:26.000There's got to be something going on here but there was a cultural piece for them norm that being stressed in any way shape or form was wrong and that meant something was wrong with the organisation and leadership needed to do something about it.
00:25:26.079 -->
00:25:28.400And I was like okay we're gonna have to do a cultural reset here.
00:25:28.640 -->
00:25:45.759Interesting because you cannot be comfortable 100% of the time like that learning means being uncomfortable growing means being uncomfortable and in a in a community of any sort you are subjugating to some extent your of in your individual preferences and norms to go along with the community preferences.
00:25:45.920 -->
00:25:58.079But that lens wasn't there and they were like no I must be comfortable and I must have my individual needs met and I I value both of those wants but I don't think that's realistic to ask for in the workplace.
00:25:58.240 -->
00:25:58.720Yeah.
00:25:58.960 -->
00:26:04.640Yeah and I do find just sort of in general like the the conversation around comfort is fascinating.
00:26:04.799 -->
00:26:20.319And it's it's often too like the the dominant voices want a particular type of comfort and then there's all but but the expectation that everybody else would be uncomfortable so that certain voices and certain dominant approaches will be comfortable.
00:26:20.480 -->
00:26:24.160But it's okay if everyone else is uncomfortable and that's just kind of their lot in life.
00:26:24.559 -->
00:26:31.279And I I struggle with this movement towards we have to love our job 100% we have to love every single thing.
00:26:31.440 -->
00:26:47.839We have to find no stress we have to be comfortable all the time because well we we know from any type of learning experience or learning theory or personal growth that's not when you grow that is that is actually not the conditions for growth and development and thriving and and being comfortable doesn't equal thriving.
00:26:48.400 -->
00:26:57.440So yeah having those conversations and sort of really seeing what people um like you know shifting it from not like what do you what do you want?
00:26:57.599 -->
00:27:10.160It's like what what would make you grow and learn and change and what skills are you looking to develop and like having those conversations rather than I find a lot of um there's a lot of questions around what makes you comfortable.
00:27:10.400 -->
00:27:18.720It's like well what if we ask that differently what if it was what makes you interested what makes you grow what makes you excited what makes you curious what you know asking those questions.
00:27:18.880 -->
00:27:21.119Yes both education and in the workforce.
00:27:21.359 -->
00:27:39.200Yeah yes the the role of adventure and I I s I have so I have two kids I have 14 and a 19 year old um and I see the comfort thing sometimes in that along with the as I said to them fairly often and I think they would probably shake me very hard if I said to them again now it's you need to be bored.
00:27:39.759 -->
00:27:41.440You need to be bored boredom is good.
00:27:41.519 -->
00:27:47.440They'd be like I'm bored great I'm super glad you're bored and they'd be like what and I'm like that's boredom is good for you.
00:27:47.519 -->
00:28:02.960You learn to entertain yourself and figure out a bunch of other things but I think there are certain things every generation does to their children right that is somewhat helpful and somewhat not and I think the comfort one is is part of that equation right and we need to perhaps adjust things.
00:28:03.119 -->
00:28:25.359Now I think it's adjustment on both sides or I think there is absolutely room for all workplaces to recognise we still do not have enough conversations that take the stigma out of mental health issues and we just wrapped up recording an episode around being trauma aware and trauma informed right and I think that's a crucial part of building safe and caring workplaces and I believe safe and caring workplaces are important.
00:28:25.519 -->
00:28:41.359Not sure that everyone does in the world but whatever um but yes I think there's there's definitely room for us to also explain you are going to experience stress when the situation you are in does not match your coping skills.
00:28:42.160 -->
00:28:57.519If your brain looks at it and goes this is a big deal and I don't have the skills you will feel discomfort but that's okay because you can learn to do the things that stop you from feeling discomfort next time around and that's what happened is yeah you can do the hard things it's okay like it is okay.
00:28:57.759 -->
00:29:01.279Yeah I was laughing at the boredom piece because I say that to my kids all the time.
00:29:01.440 -->
00:29:16.720And like being bored and have that's when the ideas come and that's when the thoughts come if you're not filling your brain and with all the you know the scrolling and the sounds and the air pods and the just being bored sometimes is actually where the best kind of brain ideas and the brain cleanse and the brain rest comes from.
00:29:16.880 -->
00:29:17.920So all of those things.
00:29:18.079 -->
00:29:24.400When I did um some of my neuroscience stuff we had to have mind wandering time in lessons.
00:29:24.480 -->
00:29:35.599So we would sit in a lesson and they'd be like okay we weren't allowed screens because screens were not useful for processing and then they'd be like okay stop and you'd have to sit for two minutes and you weren't allowed to do anything for two minutes.
00:29:35.680 -->
00:29:43.200And everyone was like in the beginning everyone's like this is weird but it's in those moments that your brain is free to connect the dots and have the ideas and all of those things.
00:29:43.279 -->
00:29:44.480So I do love some of that.
00:29:44.720 -->
00:29:47.119We just need to get more of this into the into the world of work.
00:29:47.440 -->
00:29:55.119Yeah yeah and then not have that become I just need two hours to let my mind wander to be three weeks off mind wandering time.
00:29:55.200 -->
00:29:56.640No that's not that's not right.
00:29:58.160 -->
00:30:04.799Can we talk a little bit about your work in with indigenous peoples and indigenous community and climate resilience?
00:30:04.960 -->
00:30:06.240Would that be what you would call it?
00:30:06.480 -->
00:30:22.000Yeah I actually don't talk about climate resilience because and this is this came from doing work uh in communities particularly in northern Labrador where people would really talk about the problems of resiliency and how it's actually creates sort of hierarchies of privilege.
00:30:22.400 -->
00:30:36.720So when you keep saying to someone good for you you're resilient and it's so in the climate perspective or in colonial perspectives or residential school you you praise the people who are continuing to survive the bad thing but you don't fix the bad thing.
00:30:36.960 -->
00:30:52.559So this kind of in that context the resiliency narrative is actually it can be very offensive because it's like well instead of praising me for making it through or praising me for being strong, fix the system that created these sort of inequities and problems in the first place.
00:30:53.039 -->
00:30:58.640So what I look at is more the emotional and relational and mental health pieces related to a changing climate.
00:30:58.880 -->
00:31:13.279So how we relate to community and to land and to place and then our futures and a lot of work around that future kind of piece and then a lot of work around the emotional pieces, the grief pieces and really thinking through like what does it mean to live in an ever-changing world?
00:31:13.440 -->
00:31:18.960What does it mean when we know the the term that is used all over the world is era of loss and damage.
00:31:19.119 -->
00:31:35.119So we have entered into this we know there's going to be fundamental shifts to the climate and environment there already is so how do we live in an era of loss and damage and then when you tie it into sort of the classroom or the workspace when we have more and more people who are directly impacted by climate change.
00:31:35.200 -->
00:31:42.240So floods, forest fires, hurricanes like the the devastating pieces that impacts work in educational environments.
00:31:42.400 -->
00:31:46.400It impacts people's ability to learn and to you know actually go to work.
00:31:46.799 -->
00:31:55.920And then if you look at some of the slower, the creeping changes, the day-to-day changes that aren't the major break event, but cause significant anxiety or future anxieties.
00:31:56.160 -->
00:32:22.480So now we're seeing a lot of the research that's coming out particularly around some of the neuroscience work, the the psychology and psychiatry is a huge disrupted impacts to people's ability to work, ability to sleep, ability for um full cognitive function because you've got all this worry and anxiety, the amplification of other mental health challenges if they're present, the creation of changing family dynamics, even sense of hope for the future.
00:32:22.720 -->
00:32:29.839So if people start to lose that sort of sense that they can dream a future or have the type of future they want, that impacts their choices of going to school.
00:32:29.920 -->
00:32:31.839It impacts what they do in the workplace.
00:32:32.160 -->
00:32:43.119And we're seeing a lot of trends now on much higher absence rates from workplaces because people are experiencing all sorts of stress and trauma related to climate change.
00:32:43.200 -->
00:32:50.160But if you're in an area where you're you're suddenly hit with a forest fire or a hurricane like that is changing the whole sector as well.
00:32:50.319 -->
00:33:01.440So there's some really interesting pieces around how climate change will continue to impact our workplaces, our educational environments and just individuals people's ability to cope and adapt and respond.
00:33:01.759 -->
00:33:10.079And then how that interacts with all of the other emotional regulation pieces and all of the other stressors that are out there is people are really worried about futures.
00:33:10.160 -->
00:33:14.960There's a lot of future worry and future anxiety that's quite heavy and prevalent around this.
00:33:15.119 -->
00:33:22.319And so it's climate change but it's also housing and food and global stability and politics and all of it, right?
00:33:22.480 -->
00:33:30.559So it's it's all compiled into one and it's that one is hitting all generations but obviously the youngest generation too is is really struggling with those pieces.
00:33:30.880 -->
00:33:39.200I mean we do we like I was having a conversation well part of the conversation this morning but um I I very much value the reframe on resilience.
00:33:39.359 -->
00:34:00.720So in my world actually I did a conference session on resilience and the first thing I said was I want to be very clear that resilience is not about bullying through or pushing on or getting where you're going it is about for me that appraisal of the situation and change either changing the situation or changing how you can manage in that situation.
00:34:01.200 -->
00:34:06.079But the the embassy does need to be on changing the system if the system is causing some of those issues.
00:34:06.319 -->
00:34:08.800I think that that's an important one to underline.
00:34:09.679 -->
00:34:16.880But that this this era of uncertainty I hadn't heard the the term you use was era of damage and loss and damage.
00:34:17.039 -->
00:34:30.000Yeah that's uh in the climate change worlds and they're in the it's called the intergovernmental panel on climate change which is the global climate summits and all the the research so in the in the research and policy terminology it's era of loss and damage.
00:34:30.159 -->
00:34:40.159And so even calling it that puts out a particular narrative and frames research in a particular narrative and frames education in a particular narrative and policy.
00:34:40.559 -->
00:34:47.599And I think what it what it is trying to do is show that we are now we've crossed so many thresholds that it's not about will there be loss?
00:34:47.760 -->
00:34:58.480There is loss and there will be loss and so how do we actually develop the skills and the coping and the learnings to to be prepared to be in a constant sense of of loss.
00:34:58.719 -->
00:35:12.079So there is there's an element of it that does actually have this responsibility of we really have to learn these skills as as humanity um but the framing of it also causes anxiety for people because it's just so clearly lost and damaged.
00:35:12.480 -->
00:35:20.239It's a very heavy language around it right this but I but it represents what people are experiencing too so you've got to be careful how you talk about those things.
00:35:20.480 -->
00:36:05.199And and then there mean there may be some pieces in this I spend a lot of my time saying to people we don't teach people this right when I do the work that I'm doing on people, whether it's interpersonal conflict or someone has an issue with their leader or they don't know how to have a conversation or put something forwards or they're working with somebody that they have competing views with and they keep butting heads we often haven't given people the skills or the language to be able to articulate themselves and to say what they're struggling with and what they're bringing but then we put them in work or where or education systems particul but particularly from my perspective workplaces tell them that they're a team and that they now should work merrily well together and that everything should be peachy.
00:36:05.280 -->
00:36:05.440Right.
00:36:05.519 -->
00:36:28.400And the reality is I don't think that was ever true but if you're certainly carrying around if your brain is full with things happening for me personally, what's happening in the world that my neighbor's house burned down last year is my house going to burn down this year like I lost my you know whatever it happens to be how do you bring your full focus to the world of work it's just not realistic to expect people to do so.
00:36:28.639 -->
00:36:40.480Yeah and also they they use the family narrative all the time that one really gets me we're a family and people are like no we're not or like my family dynamic is dysfunctional and I don't want that in the workplace right there.
00:36:41.280 -->
00:36:54.800I saw that post this morning in LinkedIn and I joke I laugh because I worked for an organization that described themselves as a family and it never bothered me at all because it was an organization that one I felt part of two I felt cared for and had a good general dynamic.
00:36:54.960 -->
00:37:01.440But I was like that assumes that your family dynamic as well you're like used to a good family dynamic every day.
00:37:02.000 -->
00:37:34.320No and you know there are better there are probably better ways I understand the intention behind the use of the family word there are now better ways of us being able to describe that for people but all of this is the learning right like again we we're asking students to learn skills to be in a new world we also need to ask and think about those of us that are leading in organizations how are we evolving our skills for today's world because we don't often achieve well I create the organization so you need to fit my mould no no we need to be thinking about what is it that we need to do differently to make work actually work today, right?
00:37:34.400 -->
00:37:36.000In a very different very different environment.
00:37:36.239 -->
00:37:45.920What is what is one thing you wish leaders in organizations knew or considered about this era that you've been talking about like what should we be thinking about work?
00:37:46.239 -->
00:37:50.800Yeah I I mean I think like this is such a huge piece that's facing humanity.
00:37:51.039 -->
00:38:19.519If you had asked me sort of three years ago my answer would be quite different because at that point in time I think the the climate crisis awareness was so high and maybe was not the singular because there's always things happening but it was such a prominent discussion point and it was so clearly the issue that people were worried about, that people, particularly young people, were scared for their features that it was impacting their um how they approach university, how they approach work, all of those pieces.
00:38:19.760 -->
00:38:29.199I think now it's still there, but it's in the background because there are these really pressing immediate pieces, not that climate change isn't by any means pressing or immediate.
00:38:29.280 -->
00:38:34.480It's just kind of now seems to be hidden behind these layers of other acuteness.
00:38:35.039 -->
00:38:45.760But some of I I work with a number of mental health practitioners and psychologists in in this area and a lot of them are still seeing where people will show up for for something else.
00:38:45.920 -->
00:38:54.800And then as they start to talk the underlying anxieties, the things that are magnifying the other pieces are actually the fear of the future related to a change in climate and environment.
00:38:55.039 -->
00:39:04.719But it's like um the individuals themselves don't even realize whereas before it would be something that people would overtly come for a few years ago because that was so pressing.
00:39:04.880 -->
00:39:13.039But now it's sort of like everything is so overwhelming, everything's so acute, the news cycle is wild this is happening, prices are going up like what is there going to be war?
00:39:13.119 -->
00:39:13.920What's the conflict?
00:39:14.000 -->
00:39:43.599And so all of that kind of mixes in but I still still think that what we have is is as a as a species now the ways in which we're going to be challenged as humanity to develop new skill sets, to develop new coping abilities, to develop new emotional capacities to actually deal with the stress, the anxiety, the uncertainty, the loss, the grief, the sadness, the pe the pieces that go there are not skill sets that a lot of humans are overtly taught.
00:39:43.760 -->
00:39:52.960It's not it's not pieces that are taught particularly so in the area that I work in in grief, like we don't really do a great job in Canada and North America and a lot of Western societies.
00:39:53.039 -->
00:39:54.480We're not teaching people about grief.
00:39:54.559 -->
00:39:55.760We're not normalizing grief.
00:39:55.920 -->
00:40:09.679We're not showing how grief can show up in different ways we're not you know we have certain types of grief that are recognized so then you get you know your grief package and you have your certain amount of days off and then it's and it's all compartmentalized and you know people will show up with the ritual pieces.
00:40:09.760 -->
00:40:16.159So people will bring food and you'll have a funeral and there's those pieces that we societally understand and that work understands.
00:40:16.400 -->
00:40:28.239What climate change is actually bringing is that there's all of these other types of grief and emotion and loss that we we can't actually recognize in the workplace because there isn't any there's no structure for it.
00:40:28.320 -->
00:40:46.159So we don't have the ability for someone to come in and talk about generalized anxiety related to long-term fears of the future and we don't have something to come in of like I have lost this this something in the ecosystem or things or I've watched this anticipatory grief or I see what's happening somewhere else.
00:40:46.320 -->
00:40:47.360We don't have those pieces.
00:40:47.519 -->
00:41:04.639So instead what we do have are people who are experiencing high levels of climate anxiety and loss and grief without the supports of the understanding and the structures and the same thing in in universities like we don't understand it in the in as strong a way as we could but the workplace definitely is not set up for that.
00:41:05.199 -->
00:41:08.400If it's a crisis it's not too too bad.
00:41:08.559 -->
00:41:12.800But if it isn't a crisis it's but yeah we're we're just not there yet.
00:41:13.199 -->
00:41:36.159I don't even know if we're really set up for the reality of the bits that you talk about as being kind of institutionalized into a culture because like grief is a great example like the the workplace handling of grief is this idea that you're gonna take two days off work and all of a sudden but come back to work magically having handled your grief.
00:41:36.480 -->
00:42:10.880Like I I don't know I mean I I understand obviously the need to figure out practices for equity and everything else in workplaces but the reality of thinking about something as literally evident as the grief of losing a family member which is not even conceptually hard for most people to understand we still don't have that really figured out for most people I don't think um and so when you talk about something like the grief associated with climate change I think there's a lot of people who are going to even conceptually struggle with understanding what that is before they can even have conversations about it.
00:42:11.039 -->
00:42:14.079But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be having conversations about it, right?
00:42:14.159 -->
00:42:16.719And so awareness only comes when you start.
00:42:16.800 -->
00:42:19.760So I was not even aware of any of your work until we met.
00:42:19.840 -->
00:42:21.599Like I didn't even know that was a thing, right?
00:42:21.840 -->
00:42:24.079Now I'm fascinated by the whole concept of it.
00:42:24.639 -->
00:42:27.679So now I'm asking the questions how do what does this mean?
00:42:27.840 -->
00:42:28.960How do I fit that in?
00:42:29.199 -->
00:42:43.119And for me the probably overly simplistic but I go back to how do I understand who my people are and how do I understand what is affecting them and how do I understand what they need and to the conversation I had with Ange this morning.
00:42:43.280 -->
00:42:52.159How do I get very clear on what I need from them for this organization to work and do my best to support them when they can't deliver on those things and and find ways to accommodate it.
00:42:52.400 -->
00:43:13.360Absolutely and that goes for our educational institutions too people show up in their full selves and with all of the pieces that they carry and then you put everyone together universities are quite large they're like mini towns and so you're putting people together with all of the their full humanity their full baggage and everything that is coming to bear around the world too.
00:43:13.519 -->
00:43:20.480And I think you see that in education you see it in the workplace where people will show up carrying immense weight that is often very invisible.
00:43:20.559 -->
00:43:26.960You have no idea and then things happen and it's like that thing then becomes the funnel for all the other things.
00:43:27.199 -->
00:43:46.960So it may seem like an outsized reaction or a surprising but really when you dig into it and go, oh okay I see like there's all these other pieces or it becomes the thing that people can talk about because it's a socially understood thing to talk about but really the problems are over here but they don't have the language for it or there's a lot of shame about talking about certain things.
00:43:47.119 -->
00:43:53.440Like in all the so I've been almost 20 years working on the sort of climate mental health interface and the ecological grief piece.
00:43:53.599 -->
00:44:01.679And one of the things that continues to come up to this day is how people feel shame to admit that that's that's Happening that they might feel this.
00:44:01.840 -->
00:44:06.320And so just kind of doing this work to say it's real, it is of course rational.
00:44:06.400 -->
00:44:11.039Like it is, it is a reasonable response to what is happening and it is okay to talk about.
00:44:11.199 -->
00:44:19.119But if you feel this here and it's not okay to talk about, then you make it about this sometimes so that you can still find that outlet.
00:44:19.360 -->
00:44:26.239And I think that work and universities are not structured to to see that and to provide those spaces.
00:44:26.400 -->
00:44:31.519But even our our our policies, like our HR policies, don't have anything around how could they?
00:44:31.679 -->
00:44:33.760Like we don't we don't know what the pieces are.
00:44:33.840 -->
00:44:34.320And no.
00:44:34.559 -->
00:44:44.079Certainly, like when um we've done some work around, particularly wildfires in Canada, and how it impacts uh the people's ability to go to work and function at work.
00:44:44.320 -->
00:44:48.960And like work themselves doesn't have like how do you have fire days?
00:44:49.119 -->
00:45:01.840And how do you have like people need to be off because their house could be in trouble or they have to leave or they have nowhere to like we don't we don't have those structures, so it's a really ad hoc response, which is obviously then different across people and organizations.
00:45:02.000 -->
00:45:16.159So we're experiencing events that are quite unprecedented, I think, for the workplaces that we have today, and we need to just realize that we aren't going to have the policies to figure it out, and some of this is going to therefore rely on common sense judgment, decision making, and care of people.
00:45:16.400 -->
00:45:17.280Yeah, absolutely.
00:45:17.440 -->
00:45:19.519The care piece, I think, is what drives us.
00:45:19.679 -->
00:45:31.360So even if you don't understand like what is climate grief or why something to have the care for the person that they are going through something that is making their ability to function at work either diminished or not possible.
00:45:31.519 -->
00:45:31.840Yes.
00:45:31.920 -->
00:45:39.199Uh, and and that fitting it then into the other policies to make it work to accommodate rather than going, well, we don't have a policy on this.
00:45:39.280 -->
00:45:40.400So yeah.
00:45:40.480 -->
00:45:43.760So you'll just have to soldier on or whatever, you know, the piece of it.
00:45:44.000 -->
00:45:44.239That's true.
00:45:44.320 -->
00:45:44.719No, that's not true.
00:45:44.800 -->
00:45:45.920Yes, just really repress it.
00:45:46.079 -->
00:45:47.440Yes, compartmentalize.
00:45:47.519 -->
00:45:48.239That's what I'm very good at.
00:45:48.719 -->
00:45:49.760Compartmentalize, yeah.
00:45:51.280 -->
00:45:55.119But it does challenge our structures hugely, and we we don't know how to grapple with it yet.
00:45:55.360 -->
00:46:02.400No, and recognizing that this, you know, for all for the conversation you had around the academic world needs to change, the corporate world does too.
00:46:02.480 -->
00:46:09.920Like the whole reason that I started NeuroWorks is that we are still running organizations based on 1900 management models where people are units of production.
00:46:10.159 -->
00:46:11.920That is not the world we are living in today.
00:46:12.000 -->
00:46:17.280And I wouldn't have been anywhere near as eloquent as you are, obviously, around the impact of climate on people's what they're carrying.
00:46:17.519 -->
00:46:42.719But part of my concern has been when you when you know that people are carrying such a load, and whether that comes from what's happening in the world with climate, whether that's from geopolitical concerns, whether you have family in Russia or Ukraine or you know, Gaz or wherever it happens to be, and you're living that daily, whether you have caring responsibilities and you have elderly parents, whatever it happens to be, people are carrying all of these loads.
00:46:42.880 -->
00:46:58.559And then they come to work, and to your point, we somehow assume that they're going to want to leave that stuff at the door, which we all know never happens, but also that their mental capacity, the cognitive load that they are carrying, means they do not have the cognitive load to do the role in the way that someone would have done it before.
00:46:58.719 -->
00:47:08.000And I don't know that we are looking at recovery and workloads and the systemic pieces of a workplace with the lens we need for today.
00:47:08.079 -->
00:47:11.920We're still looking at them and going, well, in 1984, someone could do this job.
00:47:12.079 -->
00:47:14.800So in 2024, someone can do this job.
00:47:15.199 -->
00:47:18.159Actually, the world load is very different today.
00:47:18.320 -->
00:47:20.639Now everybody's unique, so each person is different.
00:47:20.800 -->
00:47:25.679But I think we also need to be thinking about how are we shaping roles and structures and recovery.
00:47:25.760 -->
00:47:44.880If I'm maxed out at work and my job is cognitively heavy or complex, or the emotional load is high, and then I go home with that load, but then at home I have no ability to rest, relax, recuperate because I'm carrying a load at home as well, then my brain and my stress response never shuts off.
00:47:45.119 -->
00:47:50.559And if we think that people are going to navigate that and suddenly magically get better, like that'sn't that's not gonna happen.
00:47:50.719 -->
00:47:57.280So I do think that this the notion of care, I mean, we've used the word a lot in the last kind of number of episodes that we've done.
00:47:57.440 -->
00:48:02.639And I think sometimes that there is a a bit of a soft and fluffy view of the word care.
00:48:03.039 -->
00:48:11.360So I say yes, I actually agree with the soft and fluffy version of the word care, but we're also talking about people's literal ability to cope, right?
00:48:11.440 -->
00:48:12.880And supporting people so they can cope.
00:48:12.960 -->
00:48:15.679And that has to look different for today's world than it's done in the past.
00:48:15.920 -->
00:48:20.800And you know what's tied to that too, which is so fascinating, is the wearing of the biotrackers.
00:48:21.199 -->
00:48:29.760Because most of the biotrackers now, whether it's a watch or the ring or a band, are all tracking your ability, your stress load.
00:48:30.000 -->
00:48:42.000And so people are then getting their own data that says you've now hit your stress capacity for the day, or you have pushed over your stress capacity, which means tomorrow, can you try to do this or can you be more careful?
00:48:42.159 -->
00:48:49.039Or so uh people are paying attention to that because we know the long-term challenges of health and stress and cortisol levels and all of that.
00:48:49.199 -->
00:48:59.280But I think too, you're seeing more and more um focus on the wearable health data, which includes stress data, which then includes how people will interact with work um with that.
00:48:59.440 -->
00:49:04.880And I I have seen that play out where people will be like, sorry, I've like I've hit my stress load for the day.
00:49:04.960 -->
00:49:06.800I need to I need to go and recover it.
00:49:06.960 -->
00:49:08.960It's like, oh fascinating.
00:49:09.519 -->
00:49:13.840Um there's an episode we will be releasing next week, I think, Ross, with Dr.
00:49:13.920 -->
00:49:14.400Paul Zach.
00:49:14.639 -->
00:49:16.719So he's a neuroscientist from California.
00:49:16.880 -->
00:49:21.840So he has designed an app because he would argue over the way that the biometric data is used, I think.
00:49:22.000 -->
00:49:26.800Uh so he's developed an app that we are using in coaching practice, which is called the Six app.
00:49:26.960 -->
00:49:30.880And what it measures is the extent to which you are thriving.
00:49:31.119 -->
00:49:35.519So his view is he doesn't want people to survive, he wants people to thrive.
00:49:35.679 -->
00:49:38.320And how do we understand what thriving is from a brain perspective?
00:49:38.559 -->
00:49:53.519So, what the intent is behind the app, and the app itself is free, but the intent behind the app is that you can understand the conditions in which you are, because your heart rate might be racing, your stress level might be actually be up, but you're enjoying and valuing the experience that you're having.
00:49:53.679 -->
00:49:58.079And so these are moments to not actually take away back to the comfort conversation, right?
00:49:58.159 -->
00:50:02.800These are moments to lean into and to say, I'm actually getting a lot out of this.
00:50:02.960 -->
00:50:07.599I feel comfortable, I'm comfortable in myself, even though this experience might be something new and different for me.
00:50:07.679 -->
00:50:12.960And so, how do I have more of those moments and what are the trends and what creates those moments for me, and how do I do it?
00:50:13.039 -->
00:50:14.079So I love that.
00:50:14.239 -->
00:50:25.840I love that framing more that sometimes stress can still be the confluence of all of these other really good things that are happening, and you're stressed because you're growing and you're changing and you're learning and you're excited.
00:50:25.920 -->
00:50:26.719And yeah, yeah.
00:50:26.880 -->
00:50:29.119And hopefully we can encourage more of that.
00:50:29.280 -->
00:50:34.239Because I also heard that the fact that this tells you stress can also make you still stressed about the fact that you're supposed to be stressed.
00:50:34.320 -->
00:50:35.840So that's not oh yeah.
00:50:36.000 -->
00:50:45.519Oh, I I got one and took it off really quick because my my days are very stressful and my job is very stressful, but I also find a lot of value and purpose and joy from it.
00:50:45.840 -->
00:50:50.079And I did not need data telling me day in and day out, you are too stressed.
00:50:50.239 -->
00:50:51.039You need to relax.
00:50:51.119 -->
00:50:57.119I was like, this is actually not helpful for me because I in in my current reality, I wouldn't be able to do what the tracker was telling me.
00:50:57.199 -->
00:50:58.719And then it's like it's judging you.
00:50:59.039 -->
00:51:01.679Your your metabolic age is dry.
00:51:02.239 -->
00:51:03.679Like I'm like, oh, darn it.
00:51:03.760 -->
00:51:04.480So I took it off.
00:51:04.639 -->
00:51:10.400Yeah, it I it had the opposite effect on me than other people that seem to love it and find a healthier life.
00:51:10.639 -->
00:51:13.440For me, I started really it was in my head on it, right?
00:51:13.519 -->
00:51:16.800Like, oh no, I'm past my stress, but I love what I'm doing.
00:51:16.960 -->
00:51:31.840So, like that their view would be if you're engrossed in what you're doing, if you're in mentally engaged in the work, if you're able to be authentically yourself in that moment, you're not feeling any risk or any threat in that moment, the this the stress measure in and of itself isn't valuable.
00:51:31.920 -->
00:51:35.519It is the what's happening for you at a kind of engagement level that's valuable.
00:51:36.000 -->
00:51:37.119I love that reframing.
00:51:37.199 -->
00:51:37.840That's great.
00:51:38.000 -->
00:51:38.559Yeah.
00:51:39.119 -->
00:51:41.119And hopefully, kind of that's where we'll end up.
00:51:41.199 -->
00:51:53.840I mean, I feel like we're at the very beginning of biometric data world, and as with all things technology, there's a confluence of things that arrive, and some of them are useful and some of them are not, and hopefully we will do more useful things with them as as time goes on.
00:51:54.239 -->
00:51:54.800Yes.
00:51:56.239 -->
00:51:58.320So we're almost at the end of our time.
00:51:58.480 -->
00:52:09.440Um, if you could suggest one thing for workplaces that you would like people who run b workplaces to do differently, what would it be?
00:52:09.840 -->
00:52:16.159Uh well, for me as a climate researcher, I think that's what we really need to grapple with on the work scale.
00:52:16.239 -->
00:52:18.400And I will also throw in the universities there too.
00:52:18.559 -->
00:52:23.199We need to figure out how to put it in the education system, and then we need to figure out how to put it in the workplace.
00:52:23.440 -->
00:52:33.760But really thinking through that what people might be bringing in, might be carrying, um, might be the invisible pieces of a stress related to a very uncertain future.
00:52:33.920 -->
00:52:59.760And when you bring in young people, um, because they are the generations and they know they're the generations that are going to face a hugely uncertain world, how they see themselves in the workplace, how they see their longevity, how they see their ability to hope and dream for the future, um, how they grieve a future they know they're not going to have anymore, all of those pieces are happening as they're entering into work, and it can create those cognitive loads where it might change what they can do and when and how.
00:53:00.079 -->
00:53:08.480And then also know that we have people that are dealing with very serious climate-related crises all the time, or things like heat waves, which are happening more and more frequently.
00:53:08.719 -->
00:53:17.119Not a lot of workplaces are necessarily set up as cooling zones, so that changes, but people's cognitive abilities change during heat waves, it just rough sleep.
00:53:17.199 -->
00:53:33.440So there's just so many things about understanding how people will be affected by the broader climate and environmental changes, and then what that means when they show up to work and how they are able to perform or function or relate to the community that's that's there in the workplace.
00:53:33.760 -->
00:53:38.480That awareness of everyone's carrying something, you don't know what they're carrying.
00:53:38.559 -->
00:53:38.719Yeah.
00:53:38.960 -->
00:53:39.360Exactly.
00:53:39.519 -->
00:53:39.679Yeah.
00:53:40.000 -->
00:53:40.719Shape recording.
00:53:41.119 -->
00:53:44.320Listen, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom with us.
00:53:44.400 -->
00:53:48.880I feel like I have so much to learn in the climate space, so I will be picking your brains foreverm.
00:53:48.960 -->
00:53:54.320Um and would love to have you come back and join us for other episodes, particularly some of the ones we were talking about earlier before we started recording.
00:53:54.400 -->
00:53:54.719There we go.
00:53:54.960 -->
00:53:56.079Sign me up for those ones.
00:53:56.159 -->
00:53:57.920No, this was very uh delightful.
00:53:58.000 -->
00:54:01.599I just loved having this conversation and always happy for further chats.
00:54:02.159 -->
00:54:04.320So that's a wrap for today.
00:54:04.559 -->
00:54:06.320Thank you very much for joining in.
00:54:06.400 -->
00:54:10.320And if you liked our conversation today, please do like and subscribe.
00:54:10.559 -->
00:54:19.199You can find all of our episodes of the podcast Wired for Work and our previous incarnation unlocking your people on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube.
00:54:19.679 -->
00:54:27.760You can also check out our websites e3.ca and neuroworks.ca for more information about what we do in the wonderful world of work.
00:54:27.920 -->
00:54:31.440So thanks again for joining in, and I look forward to seeing you on another episode.
