#269 | The Case For Quitting: Knowing When To Stop Pursuits In Life As An Act of Courage Ft. Lindsay Crouse

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Part of me thinks, should we really have a predefined point of quitting, or is that not what you're suggesting?
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So all of us are, you know, especially people that don't like to quit at all and are really good at perseverance, we're all vulnerable to this kind of quirk of psychology called escamate escalation of commitment, where the more we invest in something and the closer we get to our goal, the more likely we are to double down, especially if we're starting to fail at it and get further away.
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So instead of rationally recognizing that our efforts aren't working or that, you know, our strengths might be coming our weaknesses and that we might be getting veering a little too close to self-sabotage, instead, we'll actually try harder.
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And so you want obviously you want to prevent that.
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Um there are a couple of ways to do this.
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I mean, obviously, one is just do that simple kind of cost-benefit analysis where you start, where you actually set up these checkpoints and tell yourself and and actually understand like, is this working?
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And if so, for who?
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And is the amount of effort that I'm putting into this quest, is it getting closer to success or is it getting further away?
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Is and what are the costs that I'm incurring along the way?
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There's also uh well, there's a brilliant decision, decision scientist named Annie Duke who observes, and this this was really this was really insightful to me.
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She says that oftentimes in the moment, when we think about quitting, emotion clouds our judgment.
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And so this is why quitting on time often feels like quitting too early.
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So we're not actually equipped to we we feel like we're leaving something on the table, even when the time is right, to call it.
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Welcome to Win Today.
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Knowing that we've struggled for something can make achieving it feel even more meaningful.
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I still remember the first time I ran a routine four miles when I was 15 on my first day of track praxis after school.
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I had just mentally geared up to jog my first weekend race of the same length, and in my mind, logging the distance was the same achievement as running a marathon.
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I didn't realize you could also be assigned it on an ordinary day.
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I felt like a pawn on a chessboard who had just been upgraded to Queen and wasn't prepared to pull it off.
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But afterward, exploring new personal definition of the word eviscerated while sprawled on the gym bleachers and collect calling my mom to please come pick me up, I discovered something important.
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Your first time struggling through something hard but achievable becomes memorable, not despite its difficulty, but because of it.
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I kept showing up and struggling, but eventually I realized I like this.
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And in time, what was once my four-mile marathon became a scenario I could realistically call a warm-up.
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There's something exhilarating about earning your right to move the bar of what you consider to be hard.
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That's an excerpt from The Case for Quitting, and we have the author Lindsay Krause with us today.
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Lindsay has dedicated her career to becoming an amazing journalist, has spent over a decade with the New York Times and is an Emmy Award-winning author and explores the benefits of perseverance, but also the dangers of perseverance as well.
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Lindsay, honored to have you on the show.
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Thanks so much for having me.
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That was beautiful.
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I never I haven't heard that one act that passage actually written out yet.
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So I mean read it.
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That one's great.
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That was one that I when I first read it, I could picture you laying there on the gym floor.
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I could also remember my journey to running, where four miles certainly felt like a marathon, and then now it's just all right, it's easy peasy.
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There's a lot that we could read about you on a Google search.
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There's a lot of incredible work that you've done with very notable people.
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What would you say is the most important thing that we should know about you?
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From a professional perspective, I think it's it's really been the guiding purpose of my career so far to explore questions that I have and that a lot of the people around me have, like these questions of how to keep going, how to go harder, how to do more.
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Those are the questions that have guided me professionally in my life and also athletically.
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Um I'm a marathon runner, also kind of a hopeless striver.
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So that's what I've always kind of wanted to know and to learn more about, but both for myself and also in the kind of the champions that I've worked with and profile in my career.
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And I mean, I guess that leads me to this book where I think for myself, you know, I I worship perseverance.
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Like I grit, I've mastered grit.
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But I think gradually my own approach to perseverance started to work against me.
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Um, I started to get tired.
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I I stopped being able to do work that I was really, really proud of anymore.
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And so instead of continuing to ask questions about how to do more for this book, I decided to ask the opposite question, which is when and why might it make more sense to quit.
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Quitting can be a sensitive word for many folks.
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And the title of the book, The Case for Quitting, is quite provocative to where somebody might not even want to pick it up.
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And I remember when this first came across my desk, at first I thought, I don't know if this fits with win today.
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Until I started doing some extra homework and seeing that and even hearing you say now, you are in fact a proponent of the struggle.
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You're a proponent of perseverance.
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What case are you making with quitting and the positive association that many people might be missing with this book title?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Um so, first of all, I mean, I share the average's the average reader's commitment to grit and to perseverance.
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And I really wanted to make that clear.
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Like even in the passage that you wrote, I mean that you read just now, uh I wanted to share that with readers because I want them to really understand that I really appreciate the value of hard work and wouldn't be where I am now without hard work.
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But for this book, I, you know, I did talk with hundreds of experts and also with a lot of people that I think have had to make a lot of these decisions around quitting, who've confronted the question of whether to stay or to leave.
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And I think from all of these conversations and all of this research, I've I found that quitting is not it's not only a failure of resolve or an easy way out the way that we're often told it is.
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Often instead, it's the courageous first step to something better.
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It can be a pivot, it can be a break, it can even be a chance to go further than before.
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And I've seen that in my life.
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And a lot of the people that I wound up profiling for this book discovered that whether it was the hard way or the easy or an easier way, they discovered that as well.
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And I'm hoping that a reader who might feel stuck or even like just their hard work isn't working anymore, they might want to consider quitting as just part of that toolbox for getting where they want to go.
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What are some of the steps or inventory that you recommend taking for someone to be able to, I would say it's an act of courageousness at times to even arrive at that decision that okay, we can one thing that can coexist that I believe we we probably wouldn't see in much of what is out there is that hey, there's there's that that that is an act of courage.
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Yes.
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And because you chose to in many cases prioritize yourself versus a lot of what we see is the the antithesis of that.
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So if we're going to be courageous and take that step, many people may not even think that's a possibility.
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How can we move towards that?
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And what would you recommend from an inventory standpoint that we should do?
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Well, I think first we have to think about why we're continuing in the first place.
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For you know, is is your hard work productive, or are you letting the effort that you're putting into your work convince yourself that it's productive?
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Is it actually achieving the outcomes that you want?
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There's struggle.
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Are you looking at, is the struggle that you're engaging in, is it meaningful?
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Is it something that you actually care about?
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Or is it just I talk about learned helplessness in the book.
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Is it is it the act of fighting itself that is propelling you rather than the outcome that it's getting you?
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Is it is suffering keeping you stuck?
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I think you also have to think about healthy perseverance versus harmful perseverance, you know, perseverance that's getting you somewhere, that's either building momentum or getting you somewhere you truly want to go versus harm harmful perseverance, which is when the costs of this work outweigh the benefits.
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Um, and oftentimes, you know, denial is a very healthy to have a very helpful tool there in um preventing us from understanding when perseverance is turned against us.
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There's, I think also in our culture, we're really conditioned around understanding futility and recognizing futility.
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You we're really not equipped to understand when our hard work is actually not going to happen.
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And we don't want to take that loss and we can't admit or accept that that loss has already happened, and that by persevering against persevering against this failed goal already, we're only going to make the inevitable giving up more painful in the end.
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So I think, I mean, there are a lot of ways that a viewer, a lot of sort of tricks that a a reader can can use to assess those things.
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But I think first kind of actually thinking about what's driving your motivation to continue can be a really good first step to understanding if you should be thinking about potentially quitting versus versus only continuing.
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I wish that I could have spoken to you four years ago when I was in the middle of a pursuing a master's degree, which I did not end up per finishing.
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And that was something that I really struggled with for a long time of okay, is this really worth moving forward, or do we just stop because from an early age we in our household like hard work was prioritized.
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That was that was the standard.
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And then going to and then wrestling, there is no quitting in wrestling, and then going to a military college, there damn sure is no quitting there.
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And I really it built a life around you push through at all costs, and then I'm sitting here doing what I thought was going to be something that would upgrade my career, and then I'm having these conflicting thoughts that I don't need this, I don't want this, I don't see the value of it, but I don't want to tell people that I didn't push through with it anymore.
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And it and it eventually came down to okay, if I think about where what this what this will do for my life and is this really in alignment with where I want to go, I was able to determine no, it doesn't.
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But I probably could have cut months off of that decision fatigue if I would have known who you were at the time and had more of that courage.
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Yeah, I mean, I think so.
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First of all, I totally agree with you that the act of quitting takes a lot of courage.
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It's often a bold act where you are cutting your losses and just accepting that you're not getting what you want or that you're not happy or that you are giving up.
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I mean, again, it can be recognizing that you failed and instead of dragging that out, just accepting that you can't get what you want right now and that you're instead you're gonna focus your energy, which still exists, you know, ideally you can still, you can still put your effort into something, and you can put your effort into something that actually might succeed, might have a better odds of succeeding.
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Um, and I think that's probably what you were trying to do there.
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You knew that you were, I mean, you're able to grind.
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Many of us are really able to grind.
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And then we can forget that in our courageous and heroic ability to grind, that we're not actually continuing to pursue the thing that matters most or that where we're actually going to be happy or even more successful.
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Um, so I think in quitting there, that that was that was going to be the courageous decision decision, but it can take a lot for us to actually realize that it's also the rational decision.
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Right.
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Do you feel like or what would you say to somebody that was about to start a new quest?
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It it should they consider before they go on this quest a condition that if that condition is met, then that's where we call it?
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Or like should we go into something new with that even being a thought?
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Or is it something that just, hey, start the new quest and just constantly audit yourself along the way?
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Is it the right quest?
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Because it part of me thinks should we really have a predefined point of quitting, or is that not what you're suggesting?
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So all of us are, you know, especially people that don't like to quit at all and are really good at perseverance, we're all vulnerable to this kind of quirk of psychology called escalation of commitment, where the more we invest in something and the closer we get to our goal, the more likely we are to double down, especially if we're starting to fail at it and get further away.
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So instead of rationally recognizing that our efforts aren't working or that, you know, our strengths might be coming our weaknesses and that we might be getting veering a little too close to self-sabotage, instead, we'll actually try harder.
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And so you want obviously you want to prevent that.
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Um, there are a couple of ways to do this.
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I mean, obviously, one is just do that simple kind of cost-benefit analysis where you start, where you actually set up these checkpoints and tell yourself and and actually understand like, is this working?
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And if so, for who?
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And is the amount of effort that I'm putting into this quest, is it getting closer to success or is it getting further away?
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Is and what are the costs that I'm incurring along the way?
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There's also uh well, there's a brilliant decision, decision scientist named Annie Duke who observes, and this this was really this was really insightful to me.
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She says that oftentimes in the moment, when we think about quitting, emotion clouds our judgment.
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And so this is why quitting on time often feels like quitting too early.
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So we're not actually equipped to we we feel like we're leaving something on the table, even when the time is right to call it.
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And if we leave later, we've probably let where it's probably too oftentimes we only understand when it's time to quit when it's already a little too late, is the other way of looking at it.
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And so when we're on the outset of a mission, as you're describing, like, and this could be at the start of training for a marathon, or it could even be at the beginning of a relationship or a job or really any sort of goal, especially while we're still in that kind of experimental phase when we haven't, when we haven't let the our investment build up so much that it's painful to leave and that we're not escalating.
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We could use something that she calls kill criteria to help us decide in advance what it might take down the line to stop.
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I mean, I kind of did this when I began it as an assistant at the Times at the New York Times.
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Like I knew those jobs at the time had a two-year limit before you had less potential to rise, and I would probably need to leave then or stay an assistant.
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Um, and so that was my kill criteria.
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Like I was going to leave after two years because I felt that my possibility of succeeding after that would be very low.
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But you can do that in a marathon too.
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Like, is I mean, I'm kind of doing this in a way right now.
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I I would love to train for a longer race, but I'm pretty slow.
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I just had kids.
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I could start, I could obviously before I sign up for a race, because I don't like to drop out of races that I sign up for, but I could start training and assess after, you know, a month or two, like, am I getting momentum?
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Am I getting more fit?
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Or do I need to change something?
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Do I need to stop and rest?
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I like the the thought of the kill criteria and that being something that it's like, okay, what are the conditions or parameters that if these if we hit them, then boom, then it's like a decis, then it's a decision tree at least, and could avoid a lot of fatigue when you get to that moment because you've already thought it through before or as you're beginning the quest.
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Yeah.
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It also helps us to stop before the costs mount up.
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So it makes it a little easier.
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If if you were to alter a lot of what we see out on the on whether it's on social media or or what what we see what we hear people say in the in the workforce or in the military around, hey, like you go hard at all costs, no matter what.
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Yeah.
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How how would you I don't because I don't believe you would kill that message, but how would you how would you refine it based off of what you know in all of your research around this topic?
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Yeah, I think there is a real value to the to the premises of keep showing up and never give up.
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I mean, growing up, like I had those quotes all over my walls.
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Like my friends know I just like I love a good cliche.
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Like I think these these ways of thinking are tremendously valuable and can help us, you know, again, transcend and get us where we want to go.
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But I think quitting is a companion action there.
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Sometimes quitting is uh quitting or backing off or even taking a rest.
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Like that is the thing that's going to help us keep showing up.
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And I don't think we're very good at linking those two ideas in our minds.
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Um, it's a very our our culture takes a very binary approach to those very well-meaning and virtuous values.
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Then I think so.
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I think just adding a little bit of nuance there that quitting can actually be the key to ascending and achieving and success and even happiness.
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It can be at least one key.
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And I think the problem is that in those messages, we don't leave we don't leave room for that.
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What do you think?
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I like how you framed it.
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I like how you framed it as a companion.
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And it's more so like i and going back to the to the beginning of the discussion, that uh courageousness and and that the act can coexist.
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And that's something that I feel like we don't often, whether it's in the on the social media clips or in conversations, associate quitting with, right?
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So even I guess say welcoming that other side into the relationship, perhaps, like that's that's what I'm hearing you say.
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And that's what I'm downloading in my mind that hey, there in some cases, not all, and probably not in many, like it there's there's a there's a companion component there.
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Because even, you know, being a marathoner just like you, there are some days now where I've learned, okay, the long run doesn't make sense today.
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Yep.
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There's been days in the past where it didn't matter and the long run turned into shit, or there was a bonk, or I've ended up in the ER a few times for like, hey, let's let's just keep going no matter what.
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And then you're like, all right, well, who's the dumb one now?
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Totally, yeah.
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And I think it's it's important also.
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I mean, you're an endurance athlete.
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A lot of the champion athletes know this and they learn it.
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I mean, sometimes they learn it the hard way, but other times they learn it the preemptive smart way.
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But eventually you do learn it, or you're not the champion, right?
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Um and I think that's really important to keep in mind.
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Um, and I think there was something that you were saying earlier.
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I think it's important to remember that sometimes continuing can actually just kind of become a form of atrophy.
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Like we're just we're just continuing, but we're not actually getting where we want to go.
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And then if we leave room for quitting there, like quitting is the active decision there that kind of allows us to interrupt this pattern and to make a decision before that atrophy happens and the decision is made for us, which is a much more deflating way to go about things.
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Like so I think you can.
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There is a way where I mean, this can be a word that feels cliche, but is also real.
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I think quitting can be really empowering that way because it puts the power back in your own hands.
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:58.559
Again, when done deliberately and boldly and not in that sort of you don't just want to relent all the time, but sometimes blindly continuing is not going to it can be a way of it's almost like the hope you you hope that things will change, but actually you know they won't, and you're just delaying this decision.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.240
You're bringing me back flashbacks.
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:08.880
One thing that we didn't share before was that, you know, we've we've both ran the major marathons.
00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:09.680
They're awesome.
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:10.400
Yeah.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.480
They're we'll we'll never forget 'em.
00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:19.359
But uh Boston, it took it took me seven years to actually like get to Boston.
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:24.240
I thought it was only gonna be a a two-year journey, qualify the first year, run it the second year.
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:32.480
And I remember my first attempt actually getting to getting to go to a qualifying attempt.
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:38.319
This was after getting hit by a car, waking up with a trauma unit, and then we're finally on this start line.
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:41.279
And I've it's taken four years at this point in time.
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:43.599
And there's nothing that's gonna stop me.
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:46.480
I know how to train, I'm good, I'm strong.
00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:49.759
And it was Wilmington Marathon 2021.
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:55.680
I knew at mile 16 something was wrong, and I'm starting to lose feeling in my in my hands.
00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:57.519
Like my hands are going numb.
00:22:57.680 --> 00:22:58.480
Oh my god.
00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:02.720
And of course, what I'm telling myself is like, okay, this is 10 more miles.
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:03.039
Yes.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:03.759
Suck it up.
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:04.559
Like, yes.
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:06.000
I have been that person.
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:09.279
And marathons are not You're not gonna need your leg tomorrow.
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:11.680
You don't run a marathon to be comfortable.
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:16.400
And then at mile and and the wall will always find you.
00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:18.319
You're gonna have that that physical struggle.
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:28.079
But at mile 20, now because I'm I'm not able to reach for my gels because like my hand is going numb, what I'm really ignoring is that like my my body is shutting down.
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:32.880
Yeah, I start feeling myself like I'm falling asleep while I'm running.
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:36.400
And and so of course now I'm thinking, well, it's only a 10K.
00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:41.839
I'm still on pace because I've banked up so much time, but now I'm starting to fade.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:45.920
Like my my 620s were becoming 650s.
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:47.440
Now I'm in the low sevens.
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:49.440
Now I'm doing runner's math.
00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:55.519
If I can just magically run back my 630s for 10k, that's that's easy.
00:23:55.839 --> 00:24:02.480
At 22, I'm running like a nine and a half minute mile, and literally just I'm I'm like my eyes are sinking.
00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:08.319
I get to mile 24, I start running into parked cars, my body's literally shutting down.
00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:10.400
Like pulled me off the course.
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:30.960
I got rhabdo and ended up in the ER after 24 miles, and and there's a picture of of me with the IV in my arm attempting to convince the medic to let me go because if I run two more six-minute miles, I can magically still qualify for Boston.
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:33.599
Ryan Cass, the case for quitting.
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:36.000
And they told me, they said, Mr.
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:39.279
Cass, you're at risk for cardiac arrest right now.
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:41.039
You are going to the hospital.
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:47.839
And my stubbornness nearly cost me a hell of a lot more than a hospital trip.
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:49.119
I mean, yeah.
00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:54.799
Went back the next year and qualified, and it was really cool.
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:58.960
My parents came there probably because they thought I was gonna end up in the hospital again.
00:24:59.039 --> 00:24:59.680
Who knows?
00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:04.160
But uh I definitely wasn't the smartest on that first attempt.
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:15.200
Yeah, I mean, again, I I would say that that is a story where we can agree that you probably passed the threshold for sensible quitting, right?
00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:24.400
And that there's some message in our culture or values that you'd learned earlier, or even just the sheer ability that apparently you could continue and you could through put push through all this pain.
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:28.000
And somehow you were deciding that that meant you should.
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:34.000
And I think this is the line that a lot of us, I mean, especially endurance athletes, have to have to learn.
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:54.480
I mean, I I wrote about in the book how for years I had a shape of a scar, I had a scar in the shape of a Batman signal on my shin from like I would get these stress fractures just from running too much, and then would instead of backing off, I would ice my shin under my work desk until one day I realized I gave myself frostbite.
00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:57.119
And I was like, this is like this is actually absurd.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:04.720
And I think also what's important there to remember is like I get that you wanted to qualify for Boston, but you couldn't, right?
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:11.839
And so instead, you're actually getting yourself further away from like very little was accomplished there went by continuing, right?
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:18.640
Like you probably once you felt the tingling, that was probably the time to stop because then you would have had less recovery down the line.
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.160
And I mean, and we wouldn't have to be talking about this right now, right?
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:26.799
It's like I think that's what I especially and imagine you were in your 20s, right?
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:27.440
Hopefully.
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:27.920
Okay.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:30.079
Not not in your 30s, okay.
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:30.400
Yeah.
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:38.079
Um, but it's like I think I think sometimes we do have to discover how far we can push to understand that we shouldn't.
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:46.400
Uh, and often ideally we learn these lessons when we're younger, but um, but we need to learn them, and ideally before you go into cardiac arrest, uh, not afterwards.
00:26:46.559 --> 00:27:00.720
I mean, I will say I find I find the premise of our strengths being our weaknesses, um, and the strength of perseverance, which is one that we really want, flip it, like it just how easily it can flip into self-sabotage and like actually har lead us to harm ourselves.
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:13.519
Like, I think that is something that our culture does not teach us enough, particularly when we're hardworking and perseverant, and might be a good question that we should be asking ourselves in the moment when we are making these like crazy choices, right?
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:19.279
Like in hindsight, it's it's crazy to be saying, No, I still want to qualify for Boston when you have an IV.
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:28.240
Mentally, I'm Superman, and so is my dad, and so is everything that I've gone through.
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:38.000
Yeah, there's definitely benefits to that, but to some degree, it's also been the result of demise.
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:38.880
Absolutely.
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:40.640
I mean, it's it's like Icarus, right?
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:48.240
Like you want to keep flying, you want to keep flying, and you know you're getting closer to the sun, but you need to turn around before you come crashing down.
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:58.720
What's something that you're most grateful for that that you walked away from and and how did it change your life?
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:10.799
I mean, for so much of my life, I feel like I've also had the attitude of kind of grinding through and grinding through.
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:29.680
I think in my twenties, and so I think oftentimes, especially when I was younger, I would stay for too long in things and kind of convince myself that by staying I was doing the courageous thing and like working really hard when again we know that we know this is gonna end anyway.
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:30.799
Like, why don't you end it?
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:37.519
But I think when I so and I'm also, you know, I live in New York, I went to a competitive school.
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:43.039
Like I feel like I'm always trying to kind of I feel like when I moved to New York, it was like you started this race, right?
00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:50.319
And you just wanted to like kind of like keep going and keep rising, like regardless of questioning if it was the right race.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:29:06.880
And I stated my first job for two years, my first like kind of entry-level job for two years, even though I don't think I mean I was terrible, I'm a terrible assistant, and it it was in uh kind of a area that it was like art, which I know nothing about and never realistically was going to.
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:08.559
And then I got another job.
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:14.319
And this was doing work that I cared about for a consulting firm that was working in global health.
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:19.200
Like we were doing a lot of consulting for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and I was traveling around the world.
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:31.680
And I and it, so it was meaningful and it was purposeful, but it really had that kind of startup mentality of like grind hard all the time, like don't question, don't question why.
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:38.640
Like, of course, the broader work was meaningful, but like, was this memo I was doing on like a Sunday night at 2 a.m.
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:39.279
meaningful?
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:40.480
Like, not necessarily.
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:43.680
Um finally I got this opportunity.
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:48.960
I was always working like these other jobs, probably because I didn't have any money and also just because I they were interesting.
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:56.559
And through one of them, I got this opportunity to stop and take an entry-level job.
00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:01.200
Um, and it was at the New York Times, but it did have that kind of two-year up or out situation.
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:03.599
And there were a lot of reasons not to take it.
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:05.359
Like everybody who took it was younger.
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:09.119
They were all gonna go to grad school afterwards, and it was a really big pay cut.
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:13.279
Effectively, it was like jumping off at I think I was like 27.
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:20.559
So it was like jumping off this like this path that I'd already worked so hard to create for myself to start all over again.
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:22.720
And it felt like such a huge risk at the time.
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:28.559
And I almost didn't take it just because I was scared of again, like absorbing those losses.
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:29.680
But I did take it.
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:36.960
I did give myself some kill criteria, partly because that I knew it existed, whether I wanted it or not, that I'd probably have to be gone by two years.
00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:38.960
And I just used that as fuel.
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:58.400
Like it in some ways it was a really because there were no expectations and because it was such a risk, I think it actually led me to approach the the role and the job and like my presence at the company as in a really expansive way that led to opportunities that I don't think there was no job to apply to for a lot of the stuff that I did there.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:02.720
And so it was a risk, but I'm really glad that I took it.
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:42.319
Have you ever had or when you when you have have walked away from from things, even through your your work and all of the research, like if you were to walk away from something tomorrow, do you still have any sort of anxiety that follows, or any sort of we'll call it, devil on your shoulder moments, like or or does following everything that you promote and suggest has that eliminated those what could be countervoices from paying you visits?
00:31:44.000 --> 00:32:01.920
I think that writing and researching this book made me like truly convinced me that stopping on time, that leaving, that giving up is a much more rational exercise than we're often led to believe, and that I believed before.
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:05.359
And I think a lot of that comes down to fear.
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:16.960
And so I think that writing this book really helped give me like some very good reasons why not to stay out of fear, I guess, and to kind of get over our fear of leaving.
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:25.039
I mean, I think there are several reasons why we're scared to leave that actually are unfounded when you look a little more deeply at the research.
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:26.720
So there's judgment.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:32.880
We're scared of judgment from other people, and we're also scared of judgment from ourselves.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:38.319
But I think because we're scared of judgment from ourselves, we actually put that on other people.
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:40.400
We wonder like, what are people gonna think?
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:44.400
Like, I don't want people to think I'm a quitter, like you and your master's program.
00:32:44.559 --> 00:33:03.279
There's actually there's some research by this guy, Tom Gilovich, at DeLa Cornell Psychologist, and he talks about something called the spotlight effect, where we all kind of walk around in our lives imagining that there's this spotlight on us that's like kind of highlighting and illuminating our behavior and our actions to everyone else.
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:08.160
And it makes us believe that other people care about our decisions a lot more than they really do.
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:18.000
Um and I mean, maybe I think social media amplifies that now because it kind of does put a weird spotlight on us, but those people don't really matter.
00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:22.079
Like the people that really do matter, like the followers are just gonna forget about you for better and for worse.
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:29.759
And the people that do really matter in your lives are actually, they care about you for a lot, you know, for many more data points than you're even aware.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:40.640
So if you know you need to leave, worrying about what other people think, I mean, with the exception of if somebody is truly relying on you, which is a much different conversation, decision point, like we can just get over that.
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.599
And I think coupled with that is our fear of regret.
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:52.400
And this is kind of like where quitting becomes a boldness decision, where in the short term we do worry, we do regret decisions.
00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:58.640
We do regret leaving, we do regret quitting, but over the long course of our lives, we often regret risks that we didn't take.
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:06.400
And so in studies, even would-be quitters who hesitated to quit, they tended to be happy afterwards with their choice to leave.
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:13.840
So the regret that we feel, which is again like a very healthy sense of fear, it it's not, it doesn't play out.
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:20.960
Like the things that we're actually scared about, about like wishing that we or being worried that we made the wrong choice, that's often not how we feel after we quit.
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:24.480
And then I I mean, I think for myself, there's also identity.
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:33.599
And I think, I mean, for better or for worse, having kids and kind of having to take some leaves from work, um whether it was maternity leaves or book leaves.
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:40.880
I it's really healthy to untether your sense of self from work and define yourself in other ways, like whether that's actions or values.
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:45.440
I mean, I even had to untether my sense of self from running in some ways because I couldn't run.
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:47.599
And we all have to do that eventually.
00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:54.559
Like we're not gonna be able to do these, we're not gonna be able to kind of tether ourselves to these nouns that form our identities forever.
00:34:54.719 --> 00:35:09.760
Like it's much better to think about the underlying qualities that led you to those things and uh embrace those values as how you define yourself as opposed to the things that they can be uh uh kind of like stuck in, I guess.
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:10.320
Yeah.
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:14.719
So yeah, I was able to kind of get over a lot of that through writing this book, I think.
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:17.280
I I like that you brought up the spotlight effect.
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:22.000
I read that study recently in a Sawhill Bloom newsletter.
00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:37.440
And it would be interesting to see what people would do, or I bet people would be a lot more willing to quit or walk away from something that isn't serving them if they realized A, how little the spotlight is actually on you.
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:38.000
Yes.
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:40.239
And B, how little people actually care.
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:40.800
Yeah.
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:43.840
It's it's and it's and we create this story.
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:44.320
Yeah.
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:49.840
And what one thing when I read about this study was to prove the point.
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:54.719
They had somebody wear, I believe this was on a college campus.
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:55.360
Yeah.
00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:07.920
They had uh an in a larger school, they had somebody wear this ridiculous shirt, like something that if if you and I are wearing, just think about the worst shirt you could possibly imagine that had the worst message ever written on it.
00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:16.480
And then walking into a room of a hundred people, your mind is going to think that all 100 people are staring at you.
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:24.079
And they so they interviewed these students afterwards and and asked, hey, what shirt was Lindsay wearing?
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:27.199
And they said, Oh, I'm I'm not, I don't know, a white shirt.
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:29.679
Like they didn't even know what was on there.
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:41.360
So to compliment that, to compliment what you're saying, it's like, hey, if someone is on the fence right now about what other people might think or what they care, they probably aren't thinking about you that much.
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:42.800
They probably don't care that much.
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:47.599
And I'm not also, I know you and I aren't suggesting, oh, nobody cares about you, nobody's thinking about you.
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:48.480
That's not true.
00:36:48.719 --> 00:37:02.159
But it's but both of those things are are far less than what we could possibly imagine there for, hey, maybe this is your your invitation to go and move forward on that thing.
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:03.039
Absolutely.
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:11.519
I mean, a lot of people that I talked to in this book, after they quit, whatever, they were so scared or like weighing whether or not they should stay or leave.
00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:15.760
After they quit, I think some of them were almost disappointed that people didn't care as much.
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:17.679
I mean, this decision is so huge to them.
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:20.079
And instead, it's like people are just like, okay, great.
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:25.119
Like in the same way that they supported them when they started on the thing, they supported them when they left the thing.
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:32.880
And that's again, with the people that really matter in our lives, that is the reaction that we'll typically get and that we deserve.
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:42.960
The book title itself, as as we brought up in the beginning, could be a hot take for somebody.
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:49.840
And then within the book, there's another hot take on women quitting and men quitting.
00:37:50.880 --> 00:38:07.360
Talk about the research that that's not even supporting research, but just talk about some interesting finds within the research of you know men versus women on this topic.
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:17.199
And then I know you you bring up a classic example with the 2018 Boston Marathon, which I think would have been one of the best years to run it.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:20.320
The majority of the world probably would disagree with that.
00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:23.840
So I'd love for you to shed some light on that.
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:24.639
Yeah.
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:30.239
So in 2018, I was watching the Boston Marathon from the safety of my desk.
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:32.880
Um, and it was terrible weather, as you said.
00:38:33.119 --> 00:38:40.079
And I remember when I was watching it, I was just like, I just know women are gonna finish, women are gonna finish this rate.
00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:42.079
I mean, sorry, women are gonna finish this race.
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:42.880
And it was true.
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:46.559
Like women finish the race at higher rates than men.
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:49.280
And so I wound up, I was really curious about why.
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:54.480
Like it just it kind of confirmed things that intuitively I knew in my life were true.
00:38:54.639 --> 00:38:57.199
Um, but I kind of wanted to understand myself a little bit better.
00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:01.119
Like, why, why am I able to continue when things are hard?
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:09.360
And I mean, and it also kind of challenged some of my understanding of I guess like how our culture talks about gender.
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:16.239
Like, I mean, we have the Marlborough man, we have the Terminator, we think of kind of people that don't quit.
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:19.679
Like, we really think of toughness as a male quality, I think.
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:21.920
At least that's kind of how I grew up thinking.
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:24.559
And so now I'm like, oh, I guess women are really tough too.
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:26.400
Like women don't like women don't quit.
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:27.840
Um, and there are a lot of reasons why.
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:34.880
I mean, there's obviously the physical reasons, like women have, especially in harsh weather conditions, women have more body fat than men.
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:40.480
Women go through childbirth, like we are set up to because we're not able to quit in many contexts.
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:43.039
Um, we are set up to endure and we're just able to do it.
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:44.960
Then there's the psychology.
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:50.480
Women are really good at enduring pain for better and for worse.
00:39:50.719 --> 00:40:00.400
And women also, especially when under a lot of stress, like men take bolder risks and women kind of moderate and tap out early.
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:05.760
Uh, so we may, we may get less in the end or go slower, so to speak, but we'll finish the race.
00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:14.639
And then also there are social reasons where when things get really hard, women turn towards each other and kind of rely on each other to continue and bring each other along.
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:16.639
And so I thought that was all really fascinating.
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:21.840
And I kind of wrote wrote the piece like very triumphantly, like, just look at the superpower that women have.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:46.239
But then as I kind of looked around, you know, obviously at my friends, which is where I've historically gotten a lot of inspiration for kind of articles and ideas pieces, also at my own life and certainly a lot of women like in this country and in the world, I started to realize that like that may not necessarily be a great, like it's of course women can endure, but should we?
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:53.199
And should we in all contexts, or should women at some in some cases learn to quit a little bit more like men?
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:57.440
Because I started looking at some of the drawbacks of women's ability to endure.
00:40:57.679 --> 00:40:59.519
And there are really a lot of them.
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:04.480
I mean, like in work, like women are more likely to stay in dying industries because we finish what we start.
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:08.239
We don't make a lot of, we make less money compared to men.
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:15.760
Even though we uh complete high school and in college at higher rates than men, like we don't make the C-suite.
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:24.159
And I think in some ways that's again, because we will continue along a path that we're on, even when we're downshifting.
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:37.760
And especially as our commitments in our lives accrue, we don't always we we can do them all, and so we do, but are we doing them in a way that's good for us and even in a way that's kind of doing some of these activities well?
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:47.519
Like if you're going to try to be a perfect mom and a perfect employee and a perfect person at home and a good friend, like it's really hard to do all those things.
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:50.159
And the person that takes the hit is often ourselves.
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:56.800
So I think if women looked at at quitting as an option more than we do, we might be happier and also more successful.
00:41:57.039 --> 00:41:57.840
I mean, what do you think?
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:00.719
Do you have you noticed those tendencies play out in your life?
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:17.599
I feel like with when I first looked this up or heard you talking about it and then reading it, I figured, okay, well, I kind of go back to just evolution and how certain species have have lasted over time.
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:21.119
And then you look at, okay, well, what conditions did they have to endure?
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:34.800
And for women, I feel like you've got the built-in advantage that for thousands of years you've been introducing not just you're not just living your life, in many cases, you're bringing new life into the world.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:38.159
That's not something that you can just press a button and say, Yeah, I'm done today.
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:38.719
Exactly.
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:40.159
We'll we'll press pause.
00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:50.400
So to me, it was like, hey, you've got the innate advantage versus us that we we don't have that was my was my first thought.
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:50.960
Yeah.
00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:52.559
I mean, I think that's totally right.
00:42:52.639 --> 00:43:10.159
And I mean, even if you look at kind of the ultimate endurance metric, like women live longer than men, but the flip side of that is that's because that's because they're dumb and and and think that they can at mile 16 magically turn things around when go through cardiac arrest instead.
00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:12.559
Is saying, Hey, stop.
00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:16.800
This isn't a physical issue, or this isn't a a wall.
00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:20.320
This is the body saying we're we're dying.
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:21.119
Yeah.
00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:25.199
Our our minds can lie all we want, but our bodies tell the truth.
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:26.000
Yeah.
00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:30.320
Yeah, but um I think so.
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:33.280
I mean, women may live longer, but we don't live better.
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:44.159
Like our rates of substance abuse are catching up to men, like particularly around alcohol, our depression rates, our anxiety rates are high, where like women are struggling as well.
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:45.679
I thought it was really interesting.
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:47.760
I'm curious what you think of this analogy.
00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:58.400
The scholar Richard Reeves uses this scholar and this uses this analogy in Flowers, where he says the men are like orchids where they're fragile and delicate.
00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:02.639
And I mean, in his case, he's saying like they need To be cared for more than we might think.
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:08.880
And then he says women, like girls are like dandelions, like in any in any circumstances, they can do well.
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:18.800
And in on the one hand, it's like again, I think that it sums up the Boston Marathon analogy so well because it's like, sure, women are dandelions, like women can finish the race.
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:23.920
But what good is it to be a dandelion if you're just going to get trampled on?
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:31.440
And in life, sorry, in the marathon, there's a finish line, but in life, you can just kind of grind forever.
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:38.639
And I'm not sure that women necessarily consider the choices that of course we don't have in everything.
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:42.800
But and men can certainly learn to persevere like women as well.
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:59.679
But I think both genders, both sexes have probably more choices than I think we sometimes consider that might, you know, if we if we did what wasn't our natural inclination, we might wind up being happier, more successful, and a little bit more moderate as well.
00:44:59.840 --> 00:45:08.719
So I think, well, women could learn to quit like men, men could also learn to persevere, and at times to quit like women, and um everybody could benefit.
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:10.079
Well, it's interesting.
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:15.599
I I agree with the orchid analogy, especially even more so now over the last few years.
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:18.480
I believe what we're starting to see is is a shift.
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:18.960
Yeah.
00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:23.920
And what's really being brought to light is more of men's mental health awareness.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:42.800
And I'm even seeing it with some friends and groups that what may have been in the past, like maybe not so much of a place for, meaning, like, hey, we can actually express some feelings and emotions, and hey, we struggle too, and yeah, and we need help too.
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:54.400
I agree with that, and I believe that it would be rather yeah, more commonly agreed upon now than it would be if we were having this conversation five years ago.
00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:55.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:57.679
So that both genders can kind of learn from each other.
00:45:58.559 --> 00:45:59.599
Yeah, absolutely.
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:08.880
Lindsay, one thing I like to understand from everybody that I interview, high performers, is what does winning mean to them?
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:20.079
This being the Win Today podcast, one thing I've learned speaking to high performers is that winning is not a binary outcome.
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:26.719
And secondly, I've I've yet to speak to somebody that has tied winning to any sort of metric.
00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:32.239
But along the way, have learned a lot of different ways to frame winning.
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:36.719
So if I were to ask you, Lindsay, winning, what is winning to you?
00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:38.559
Winning is dot dot dot.
00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:40.480
What is that definition for you?
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:41.599
Sure.
00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:43.840
I mean, I love to strive.
00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:51.360
I love to struggle in some ways, but I think for me winning feels like the opposite.
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:53.199
It feels like satisfaction.
00:46:53.360 --> 00:47:03.599
Um, it feels like getting closer to something that is meaningful to you, but ultimately feeling like you have enough.
00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:06.480
That's often when I feel like I've won.
00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:12.559
And I mean, of course, agree with you that it's not about binary options, sorry, binary outcomes.
00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:14.719
It's certainly not about like assessment from other people.
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:19.280
I think when you've won, you know, and it's something inside of you.
00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:22.320
And again, that's why it comes down to satisfaction for me.
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:27.199
Because satisfaction is something that is only in your eyes.
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:28.320
Yeah.
00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:32.719
So winning is satisfaction and it's a feeling for you.
00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:33.599
Yeah.
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:40.880
How if you were to give someone advice to craft a meaningful definition of winning for themselves, what would you offer to them?
00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:45.599
Do you mean like a toolkit or like questions tasks?
00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:48.880
If I just, yeah, like, hey, Lindsay, I just shared your definition.
00:47:49.119 --> 00:47:55.119
If I was going to make my own definition, like what advice or insights would you share with me?
00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:59.440
Because maybe I adopt yours, but maybe I have something completely different, but I don't know.
00:47:59.840 --> 00:48:03.920
I think I think you have to ask yourself, what would be enough?
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:06.559
And then you can't keep moving that goalpost.
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:15.199
And I think that was a question that I was asking myself a lot as I was writing this book, actually, is it's obviously a human tendency to strive and to want more.
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:21.280
And a lot of us, I mean, especially these perseverant, achieving types, like we constantly want more.
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:24.639
Um, and that's it, that's a wonderful feeling.
00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:26.800
And also what drives us.
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:30.480
But at some point you have to turn that off and you have to have enough.
00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:37.039
Um, otherwise the goalpost is constantly going to move, you're going to be constantly dissatisfied, and you'll never be able to quit.
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:43.199
Um, you will constantly be always grasping, and you need to be able to do both.
00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:50.239
Um, so I think it's deciding what would be enough for you, and that's how you'll be, and then once you have it, be satisfied with that.
00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:51.840
I love that.
00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:53.280
I appreciate that perspective.
00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:58.960
And I believe they're they're kind of what we've been talking about to this whole time.
00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:09.039
If we were to like put a theme around this, or one of the themes of this conversation is that hey, there are in fact some consequences to being a striver if you're not mindful.
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:09.760
Yep.
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:13.599
And and what you just mentioned there, it makes me think about Dr.
00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:22.719
Ben Hardy's gap and gain, the gap in the gain, which basically means if you're living in the gap, that the goalpost is always moving.
00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:30.400
So you can run, you could run, you could finish your marathon and hit a PR, and now you're not happy because you've already got the next PR in mind.
00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:30.880
Yep.
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:31.119
Yeah.
00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:33.679
And again, like that's part of Yeah.
00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:40.320
It's part of human nature and it makes sense to strive, but you also have to be able to have enough.
00:49:40.639 --> 00:49:40.960
Yeah.
00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:48.079
And not just and not fe not just kind of lie to yourself about it, like just truly say, like, this is enough.
00:49:48.320 --> 00:49:50.159
And that can actually be really freeing.
00:49:50.239 --> 00:49:59.679
It can detach you, it can really help you detach from those outcomes and kind of catalyze this idea of success for yourself in ways that are more meaningful in the end.
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:00.719
Absolutely.
00:50:01.119 --> 00:50:11.119
Lindsay, how do we keep up with you and what's the best way to support you in addition to getting a copy of the book that will now be released?
00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:12.239
Yeah, absolutely.
00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:18.239
So the book is available wherever you get your books, on the Amazon Brunson Noble Bookshop, et cetera.
00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:23.039
And I'm on Instagram, uh Lindsay Krause at Instagram, I guess.
00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:26.000
And I think that's probably the best places for now.
00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:30.559
Um, but would I always love connecting with people, especially the kind of people that follow your podcast?
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:32.159
So um please reach out.
00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:32.639
Yeah.
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:33.360
Excellent.
00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:35.840
Yeah, everybody go and support Lindsay.
00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:37.599
Pick up the case for quitting.
00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:39.679
Lindsay, this was a great conversation.
00:50:39.920 --> 00:51:03.280
I really appreciate you shedding some positive light around perseverance, both the the positives of grit and pushing through, but also helping us understand that, hey, there can be a downside, and it's important to be aware of that so that we don't create a lifetime of unnecessary struggle that doesn't help us.
00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:07.920
And when we're mindful of those things, that's what can help us win today.
00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:09.039
Thank you so much.
00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:10.239
Thank you.