Right, Wrong and Everything Between

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Oh man, now it feels weird to be like Jenna
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who won? Like, do you know what's good? Do you
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know what's good? Is my my therapist listens to the podcast.
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So hey, buddy, perfect, this was for you. Let's make
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sure we talk about this at the end of next week.
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I want to meet you.
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And hello, welcome back, Welcome back to White Noise. I'm Michael,
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I'm Ryan, and Ryan who's joining us today? We have
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the absolutely fabulous Jenna Plummer. So Jenna and James, you guys,
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you guys went to high school together. Did I get
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that writer? It was at different high schools and associated friends.
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So Rick and I work together at the shop, right,
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And that's how I was connected to James. I know,
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we were we are, We go way back and I
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couldn't understand him because he mumbles a lot. And then
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he introduced me to James and it was, you know,
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love it first, so pretty fair.
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And then we've had a lot of fun through the years,
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numerous highlights and lack of memories. I would say one
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of my primary one was your bachelorette party.
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That was our first meeting.
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Actually was that the first time we met.
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That was the first time we met, you showed up,
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you showed me a wonderful time, and I'll never forget it.
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Yeah, we threw down hard that night, I believe my Actually,
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I have a legendary lack of memories from Feathers.
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That was the only time I went to Feathers Too
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before because I was already living down here in North
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Carolina by then.
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It was my first time at Feathers Too. Feathers is
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a gay bar in Bergen County, New Jersey. I think
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it's the only gay bar in Bergen County, New Jersey.
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And for those who are listening, Bergen County is the
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most is it the most northern county in New Jersey.
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It's basically like the wealthiest county in New Jersey, Like
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everyone works in Manhattan or something like that. And it's
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it's got blue laws, so nothing's open on Sundays. And
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you know, I mean, it's a great county. It's a
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great place to grow up. But at the same time,
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it's maybe a little bit stuffy.
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Very much stuffy. It was more fun than I could
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have anticipated. I owe that all to James and Ryan
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and all of our friends.
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It's fun making memories that then you don't remember, but
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you know that they were good and oh, it's worth
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noting for friends of the pod or people who love
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the pod. Jenna and Jordan are best friends. Oh yeah,
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Jordan's a recurring guest star. Yes.
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Yes, so Jordan and I'm through a sticky note that
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said we should be friends. We had like dated the
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same person sort of and then decided we didn't need beef.
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And then I adopted her into my life and then
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she started dating Rick, who was my actual best friend,
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and it just now I don't even know Rick.
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So I don't know who you're talking about, Ricko. Yeah,
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and Jenna, you are a fabulous therapist and do you
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want to tell us a little bit about your practice
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and like what you do? And I think it plays
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in very well to why we have you on today
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for this topic, because we feel like you'll have a
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great stance or opinions or thoughts or whatever on our
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topic today. So officially we just wanted a free therapy session.
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This is couple's therapy.
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I can support you. I'm the owner of our group
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practice in Greensboro, North Carolina, which is a little small
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town ish city down here. We specialize on working with
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queer and neurodivergent folks. We treat everything though, and we
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also do some work with substance use, with all sorts
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of things. So that's what I do.
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Very cool. Oh we lost Ryan? Oh no, Ryan, he
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just tuned out. He couldn't handle it.
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Forever.
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A friend of mine was on and both of our
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Internet kept cutting out. It was just like this poor friend.
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She was the only one who was like and she
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was like, what's happening? What is this thing that you do?
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Because we both just kept freezing. She was just like, ugh,
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how am I the only one who has her shit together?
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Me? Always?
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This is why you do what you do. You help
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people organize themselves. Then if you're the grounding force.
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Well I might be grounding to others, but I'm also
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internal chaos. That's why the ADHD is loud with this one.
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Oh really?
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Oh yeah yeah. Later in life, diagnosed and I was like,
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oh that makes sense.
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Wait, how does that work when you're like, do you
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have then like ways that you focus when you're working
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with patients or is that something that you just inherent
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these zero in on?
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So the like miss understanding about ADHD is it's lack
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of focus, but it's really like lack of focus when
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you're not interested. So it's super stimulating to me to
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be in someone's brain and sort of like understanding them.
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So I have no problem tracking that. But like, don't
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ask me what my husband just said, like, you know,
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like something about football, right.
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Okay, you hear me? Oh yeah, I have no idea
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what just happened. I hotspotted my phone and hopefully that'll
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give us give me stability here, so I apologize. Well,
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we've been chatting, yeah a little before.
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I feel more comfortable now, you know.
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Is this your way of telling me that I made
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you uncomfortable.
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Jenna chronically and that's why I love.
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You like a moth to the flame. Today we're talking
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about what is right and wrong. I think it's important
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to share. So it came out of a conversation, the
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conversation that we had last week in the podcast that
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went out that is about do we live in a
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simulation or multiple realities? And I think the conversation kind
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of boiled down to does it matter right because existence
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is existence? And I think it then led into the
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whole idea of like, okay, if if the idea of
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existence or we just exist is what it is is
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there really any concept of right or wrong? So we've
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gone from like one one big theoretical concept into another.
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I'm kind of interested to see where we go with it. It
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took me a while to land on where I landed
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because it was like it was intense. It's an intense
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thought process. Who, Jenna, who would you like to hear from? First?
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I'm gone, Michael, Okay, let me know all right? Ready,
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set go? Sorry. When I got the topic what is
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right versus wrong? My brain went in like thirteen different directions.
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So I decided to start on just vaguely, what is
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that process of right versus wrong? So I feel like
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it's such a grand concept that we as humans have
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just tried to sort of make sense of as we
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go along. And really it comes down to like morality, right,
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Like what is morality? Because I feel like that's the
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basis of right versus wrong? Is like morality, empathy, all
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that stuff, And I feel like it is ever changing.
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So I read about it, and I read one quick
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thing that was basically, the core of a right versus
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wrong is just our emotional response to something right. So
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if something is good, we have a positive emotional response
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to it. Versus a negative one, which is how we
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first tried to decipher what's right versus wrong. So something
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made us scared, angry, upset, pain, that's a bad thing.
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If it made us happy, you know, whatever, good thing.
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I don't know.
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I didn't really get into the brain chemistry of it,
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just the emotional response. And it was an interesting reminder
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to me that it's like, oh, that's all right versus
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wrong is because I did see. They did one study
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where they presented people with like moral quote unquote options,
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and most people, you know chose the most people in
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a you know, good psychological state. I guess you could say,
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people without existing psychological issues generally picked you know, the
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similar things of right versus wrong. And then they presented
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them with negative stimuli like bad smells or bad sounds.
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And then they gave them the same basic things, and
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they leaned more towards the negative just because their emotional
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state was in a more it was in like a
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bad place, which I thought was interesting that your version
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of right versus wrong also comes from the perspective of
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how you feel in that moment. I was like, so
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it is purely emotional, which is so interesting, which is
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and it all depends on context. So I was like, okay, great,
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so there is no hard fast line and then this
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was like I got into Then I met my parents
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and there's four dogs in the house and they all
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started barking, and I was like, okay, so that's vaguely
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how people do right versus wrong? Are their animals understand
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right versus wrong? And then I started reading it. Apparently
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this is a hot topic in the scientific community as
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to if animals understand right versus wrong, And they've done
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studies with I guess a lot of dogs and then
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with rats obviously in different primates, but apparently scientists are
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really divided on this, and I think it comes down
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to that line of is right or wrong purely to
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do with morality and empathy? And do animals understand morality?
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And I will say where I ended up on is
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that they do, because also do they understand part of
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that is fairness? And so one study had two dogs
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and they were training them and then like they gave
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them treats in response to certain things, and then they
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took away the treats for one dog and were only
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giving treats to the other one, and they were still
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expecting the same behavior. And then obviously the one who
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didn't get the treats was like ah and started to
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act up because clearly they were like that is not fair.
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I'm upset. This is wrong, Like this is the sense
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of like I am being wronged, therefore you don't deserve this.
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And then I was like, oh, we see this in
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pets all the time, like if your dog is upset
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with you, it does something to punish you, which again
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plays into that like you've done something wrong, therefore I
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have to teach you that you have wronged me so
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you understand what is right. Like if a dog's have
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set and poops on your bed even though it knows
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it's not supposed to do that, it's like sort of
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the same as us punishing them, which I think is
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interesting that they sort of teach us lessons if they're like,
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I know I'm not supposed to do this, but you've
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done something to hurt me. Therefore you need to be punished.
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You are wrong. I am teaching you this. And so
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it's still an ongoing study, but I thought that was
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a really interesting thing that we can see every day
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in pets, especially with dogs, I think more than like cats,
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because dogs net are I guess more empathetic than cats are.
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And also maybe I was thinking about our conversation we
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had about the bonobos back in Oh yeah, what was
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that again? That was about the bonobos the monkeys that
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basically they're a matriarchal society. They resolve their problems via
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sex and sexual expression. Oh yeah, which is great, but
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it's all it's like downplays and it chills things out,
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so they have a clear understanding of like by I
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guess introducing the right sort of like hormones and expectations.
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Through things, you can bring peace to society. Maybe I
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don't know, I'm probably summarizing that wrong, but yeah, I
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was gonna say. That's what immediately made me think of.
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Could you imagine if we lived in society where that's
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how we've resolved our differences, Like you're at where can
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there's the breakround? I mean some people do. Yeah, yeah,
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they're like you too, go work it out, but use
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a condom. But yeah, I think that's interesting. I think,
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but there are there were some scientists there about that
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where like no, right and wrong has nothing to do
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with empathy or morality. It's about following a structure. And
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animals don't understand that, But I also disagree with that
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because I feel like we see that in social structures
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with animals all the time, Like elephants who follow rules,
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who also like mourn the loss of they when they
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lose a member of their herd and they mourn its loss,
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but then they all so clearly have very strict social structures.
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Same with like whales, especially like dolphins, orcas, humpback whales
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like have very set social structures where they support each
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other and follow rules. Did you see that there was
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an orca just recently that was caught carrying its dead
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calf like, oh for a long time, Yeah, for a
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long time, mourning the loss of the calf, which I
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thought was pretty incredible. And also like I was just
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in Alaska and they were talking about humpback whales versus
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orca there, and there's like two different kinds of orca.
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I guess there are ones that come from outside that
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are way more violent as opposed to the ones that
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live in Alaska full time that really just eat salmon
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and they will like work with the humpback whales, which
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we actually got to see firsthand, which was really wild.
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We saw humpke whales feeding, and then the orca is
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like going around the picking up scraps. It was really
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cool watching two different species like work together. But then
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the outsiders, I guess, will try and eat humpback whale
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babies and along with really anything else. They're those sort
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of like the ones you read about that attack like
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fishing boats and stuff. They're the sort of like wild
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vigilante pirates of the sea. And they were like, they've
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seen no humpback whales like actively protecting other species from
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those specific kinds of killer whales for no other reason
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but to piss off the whales. Or they'll go up
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and just like whack them, like they'll just hit them
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to be like, no, you are like because they clearly
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don't like their behavior, and it's that other thing of
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like so clearly yes, other species must understand right versus wrong.
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So this is humpback wells being like your behavior is
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not correct. Therefore I need to teach you this or like,
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I just need you to learn a lesson of stay
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a frick away from me as well as everything else
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in my gener area, because now you pose a threat.
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I don't know. I just love this idea of a
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humpback well bitch slapping an orca. Oh they do, because
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I was like, I asked the guide. I was like, well,
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what do they do? Because organs are big, and they
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were like a full grown humpback while flipper with barnacles
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on it. That's a fifteen foot flipper coming down and
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you with sharp pointy barnacles. That's got a really fucking hurt.
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That's a weapon. So I think where I ended up
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on this is I think animals do understand right versus wrong,
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at least many of them. And I read another article
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where they listed out multiple ones. They are the obvious
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ones like elephants, dolphins, dogs, chimpanzees. Rats, I think is interesting,
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are very empathetic and understand I think right and wrong.
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And rats also they found like if there's multiple rats
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and one of them is caged and then they feel
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there's a threat, they will go rescue the other rat,
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who they don't even have a relationship with, but they'll
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save the other rat to then help them get out,
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or they'll give them food when they don't have to.
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Like rats very much help each other out, which I
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think is very sweet. And that's another thing where they
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think they understand, like this is the quote unquote right
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thing to do based on how we have decided the
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right thing to do is Cows are the same thing
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obviously whales octopuses because they will help eat each other.
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They'll like and help other species they found, especially in captivity.
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How they're very like gentle and they can like sense
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when you're distressed. Gorilla's pigs obviously, and the pigs one. Actually, sorry,
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there's another tangent. But welcome to the way. I think
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jenn is taking notes. Yeah, she's like, this guy's freaking crazy,
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like I see grain. Yeah, welcome to the way. My
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brain just like spins. The self exploring questions are about
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to start. No, I know I have so many notes
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over here that I'm completely ignoring. I probably had a
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really good cohesive presentation at one point, and then I
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started speaking. Pigs brought up an interesting thing with the
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morality of certain kinds of farming, because if they understand
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right versus wrong and feel emotions the same way we do,
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at least similarly to us. And obviously we know that
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like pigs out of their emotional like neurological makeup is
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sort of similar to ours. Dimm it is should we
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do things like castraight or doc baby pigs in front
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of their mother, because their mother would view it similarly
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to how we would a human mother would see her
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baby being done. Because they do it without any kind
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of pain medication because and it's just because they can't
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verbally tell us. But most people don't verbally tell you
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if they feel like something is right or wrong. Most
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of what we go off of our physical cues anyway,
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So like because a lot of people don't tell you
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when they feel like they've been wronged because of social constructs.
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So it's like, you know, you can't go. So when
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they say, like, well, pigs can't tell you, it's like, well,
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most people don't tell you either, because most people have
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trouble verbalizing those things. And babies can't tell you either,
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which is why they did allow shit to babies upwards
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until the nineteen eighties without proper pain medication. But yeah,
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so that brings up a thing with farming, like should
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we be more ethical of farming with things like hows
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and pigs and chickens because maybe they understand more than
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we think they do. And Jen, I was just going
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to gamble, like is your perspective on right and wrong?
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Pretty fluid, Like do you, like, in other words, when
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you engage with people, does that the mention of right
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and wrong kind of shift depending on the behaviors of
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the individual, or do you have like certain I'm going
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to gamble, there's certain things that are just like, yeah,
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that's wrong.
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It's so fluid and honestly, I mean, especially I used
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to work in an impatient substance, you center, like, especially
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things people do under the influencer, like acts that people
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have told me that I'm like in a world where
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I don't have empathy for you and the person sitting
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in front of me, I could easily look at this
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and go, this is a bad person. But I'm of
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the mindset that even people who do the worst things,
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and there's plenty of them out there right now, that
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it's coming from a place of hurt and pain, does
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it excuse the behavior. No, But I can understand how
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they got to that position.
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And even like I'm reading this book right now called
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Killers of a Certain Age, which is great about for
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assassins who are retiring, they worked like their whole thing
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is they worked for an organization that worked outside the
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law because they were like justice very rarely reflects what's
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right and wrong, and it was like multination, multinational. So
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it was like, we can't trust government to decide what's
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right and wrong because they do what's politically correct as
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or what not politically correct, but you know which is
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in their interest. Yeah, that's so true. That's why we
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love robin Hood because robin Hood does what's right and wrong.
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I think of systems and the systems that support our
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culture maybe and how they're not really rooted with everyone
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in mind, and so some things that people do that
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are outside of the law might actually be supportive for
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their safety. And so I think keeping in mind, like
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empathy is one part of the brain, and survival is
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a different part of the brain, and we do things
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to survive sometimes that might not be considered following the rules.
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Is like morality quote unquote, would that be a different
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part of the brain from like an emotional like empathetic
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part or is that just not even to do with
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brain and stuff at all?
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So I'm going to pull the not a scientist card, right,
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So I could be completely wrong here, but like ultimately,
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like your downstairs brain, you're a mignal of brain that's
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like act respond that's safety and survival and morality I
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think does involve our frontal lobe of our thinking and
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our reasoning, and so like, if those aren't connecting, which
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happens especially if folks have trauma, which is the majority
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of us. Uh, we can't fully make a sound decision
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if we're activated.
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Is there a thing as a non trauma person? I
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don't think so, but I don't think somewhere there.
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Everyone from my perspective, right, maybe, But like everyone I've
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ever encountered, given folks who have said, like, I don't
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have trauma, a couple months down the line, they're like, oh,
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there's the same amount of safety that's required to even
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go there, and if they're not regulated in their body.
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You know, one of the things you said about how
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we know is based on how what we feel, and
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everybody's sensory system is so different that what you know,
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a light turning on might be activating to me where
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it's not to you or smell, right, So like we
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have to keep that in mind too. Of sometimes are
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the way our body responds. We have to really learn
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to understand it.
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All right, Ryan, are you are you ready? Yeah? Sure,
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I'll do my best. You're gonna be great. All you
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have to do is like spin together a consistent thought
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and you win.
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Go.
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So I too kind of struggled with this whole thing
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because I'm like, I don't know where to go with this,
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and like just kind of did a mind tree a
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little bit and started to think about how we manipulate
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right and wrong and actually even to some degree, how
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I think right and wrong gets manipulated to make money.
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And this the whole thought actually spurned originally from my
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sixteen year old docson, who I think we've gotten to
401
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the right place with my veterinary care for her. But
402
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I have this veterinarian that loves or I don't work anymore,
403
00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:05.079
but loves to pull on your heartstrings as it relates.
404
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So like, just as an example, Zoe's sixteen, Like she's
405
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probably we know that her kidneys aren't operating the way
406
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that they used to. That's not surprising. She's sixteen, she's incontinent,
407
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she's got problems with her rear legs working the way
408
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they used to. She still has a good quality of life,
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and we continue to support her. But I've frequently asked
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the doctor under some of the care that's been I've
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been like, so, what are we achieving by doing this? Like,
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so you want to go get ultrasounds of her kidneys?
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I was like, what are you going to tell me?
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And they're like, well, we'll just have a better understanding
415
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of how the kidneys are functioning. And I'm like, so
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that you can tell me that they're failing and that
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she's dying, right, And they're like, well, well yeah, And
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then I'm like, okay, So why would we do this.
419
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The thing is it's pure profit. It's all about because
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they wanted me to drop six or eight hundred dollars
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to do this, and I said, so that you can
422
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tell me the same thing that we are already know,
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so that we can establish the same storyline that we're
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already on, which is she's sixteen years old and things
425
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are starting to fail. This is what happens when she
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gets old and then it turns out like I don't
427
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think it's any sort of surprise. There are a whole
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bunch of industries that operate in this space. You have
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lawyers in the legal industry, you have insurance companies. You
430
00:22:24.119 --> 00:22:32.279
have religions and religion and spiritual institutions, journalism and media, politics,
431
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big tech and social media manipulate it healthcare and pharma,
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education and test prep, military and defense. So we have
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whole industries and whole cross sections of our society that
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are just built around basically what is right and wrong
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and what side of right and wrong do we sit on,
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as well as kind of manipulating that understanding so that
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we collectively go in one direction or another, which then
438
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allows for, in my opinion, we're not my opinion, it's
439
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:04.839
pretty obvious it's for profiteering. So I was like, Okay,
440
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that's kind of like my deep dive like kind of whatever.
441
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And then I sat and I thought to myself, and
442
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I'm like, where is a time in my life where
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I thought I was really right? But I ended up
444
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being like really wrong? And my reflections took me all
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the way back to high school. So there's this story.
446
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.880
So my sister had ballet classes, and I think she
447
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had ballet classes like two to three days a week.
448
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And usually what would happen when my mom would get
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home from work, she would pick up both of us
450
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and drop my sister at ballet, and then my mom
451
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and I would go futs around together for like an
452
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hour and a half to two hours, like just out
453
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and about, and it was actually really solid time between
454
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me and my mom. Lots of good memories from then
455
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and that time. But there was this one time in
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particular where I got home from school. I went to
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my bedroom, shut the door, turned on music, and I
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did not hear a damn thing, and I forgot that
459
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it was a day that my mom was picking up
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my sister. So my mom picked up my sister. I
461
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didn't respond to the calls to come down, and my
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mom leaves. So I come out of my room, my bedroom,
463
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and I can't find my sister, Like I have no
464
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clue where she is. I'm not recalling that this has happened.
465
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So now I'm like running around the house. I'm like Reagan,
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I'm like, Reagan, where are you? Like that's my sister,
467
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Like where are you? And I end up like outside
468
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the house and I end up like walking around like
469
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we lived on a thirteen house cul de sac, and
470
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I'm like walking around the cull de sack like looking
471
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for her, and of course, like I run into other
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neighbors and neighbors children, and one neighbor in particular, the
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I forget the woman's first name. I just remember their
474
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last name was Suposa and now Miss Sposa is joined
475
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:07.440
the crew of people where we're like actively searching for
476
00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:11.559
my sister around our neighborhood. So it's turned into like
477
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a bit of a scene. And like Miss Supposa like
478
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follows comes into our house and we're like looking around
479
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my house together. And I've talked about my mom a
480
00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:27.519
little bit before, very fastidious individual like also I think
481
00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:30.119
a little bit image conscious in terms of like, would
482
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:32.960
never want anyone from outside of our family to see
483
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:34.839
what the inside of our house looks like if it's
484
00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:38.119
not put together and cleaned. And the house is the
485
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:41.359
house was never a wreck, but it was just maybe
486
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.559
not the way that my mom would want to present
487
00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:48.079
it to others. So anyway, we're like out and we're
488
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:50.400
like walking around and I think I'm doing the right thing.
489
00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:54.680
I've organized a search party for my sister. We're going
490
00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:58.319
to figure out where Reagan has gone. And also keep
491
00:25:58.359 --> 00:26:00.480
in mind, this is before cell phones, or my mom
492
00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:02.720
did have a cell phone, but it wasn't like this
493
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:04.920
is a time where like you didn't necessarily have it
494
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:07.039
on all the time. You know, you had it with
495
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:09.839
you for emergencies, so couldn't get through the cell phone,
496
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:13.160
and we're back out in the court and here comes
497
00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:15.599
my mom. She pulls up. My sister's in the front seat,
498
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:18.279
and I'm like, oh my god. And I was like,
499
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:22.160
Reagan is with you and my sister. My mom is like, yeah, dummy,
500
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:27.079
it's it's dance day, like I took your sister to dance,
501
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:30.240
and like Miss Sposa is standing like, oh, okay, well
502
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.079
then there's no problem. Well, so my mom does not
503
00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:37.200
like this Miss Sposa individual at all. She sees her
504
00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:39.920
as a busy body. So my mom is now like
505
00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:43.559
really put out. Not only that I have created this
506
00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:47.559
whole hubbub around this thing, but I've also now let
507
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:50.920
Miss Sposa into our home when it's not in a
508
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:53.359
way that my mom wants to present it, which then
509
00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:57.839
turns into this like my mom is enraged and I
510
00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:00.119
think the other kind of funny parties. We didn't know
511
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:04.319
this until later on. My mom had these like epic
512
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:06.680
moments as we were growing up where she just kind
513
00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:10.680
of like would lose it, and we now know, like
514
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:12.920
I didn't realize, like the reason my mom would get
515
00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:17.880
crazy migraines and other things was interrelated to her cycle
516
00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:20.759
for lack of a better way of putting to her period.
517
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:25.000
And so I happened to do this when we were
518
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:28.279
at one of these moments, and I will never forget it.
519
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:31.839
I was standing in the kitchen and my mom grabbed
520
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:38.079
this giant stack of magazines, picked them up over her
521
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:43.240
head and threw them through the air and screamed at
522
00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:45.799
the top of her lung. So magazines are going everywhere.
523
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:49.680
My mom is like screamed, and it was like, why
524
00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:54.759
would you let her in our house? And she's like,
525
00:27:55.119 --> 00:27:58.359
and then she's just kind of chastising me for being
526
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:02.880
an idy shit about gidding that my sister had gone
527
00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:06.319
to dance. And you know, I look back on it,
528
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:09.319
and the thing was is I had the best intentions
529
00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:13.519
I had. I meant the best in my like behaviors,
530
00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:17.920
but I was kind of wrong in terms of well,
531
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:21.799
I guess I wasn't wrong, but I just made it.
532
00:28:21.880 --> 00:28:24.759
I made a pretty big mistake, and it like created
533
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:27.160
just a whole bunch of drama.
534
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:33.000
You see, Jenna's gone into full therapist mode, and I
535
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:36.799
feel like we're having the same thought and I'm really
536
00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:39.240
proud that I just had the I think I had
537
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:40.400
the same reaction as you.
538
00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:43.000
Jenna I'm curious of what your reaction was.
539
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:47.519
I don't think Ryan, that you were in the wrong here.
540
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:50.440
I don't think this is the best example of right
541
00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:52.640
versus wrong. So I think you had a natural reaction
542
00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:58.680
of empathy and worry, and you acted in a way
543
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:02.400
that showed that you loved your sister and wanted to
544
00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:04.759
care for her, like you were doing with the best
545
00:29:04.759 --> 00:29:07.160
of intentions. And your mother couldn't see that because she
546
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:10.200
couldn't get over her own ego of her house, so
547
00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:13.000
like she was working on something. I don't know. Maybe
548
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:15.279
I'm very wrong. I don't think you were the wrong
549
00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:17.519
one here. Yeah, I don't think. I don't think I
550
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:20.200
intended to do this. I thought I had come up.
551
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:21.839
I was just trying to come up with a story
552
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.960
that I thought might be interrelate to right and wrong.
553
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:27.920
And I know I've lost but one on some level,
554
00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:30.599
I don't know. Did we just have a breakthrough.
555
00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:32.920
I knew were a child, right.
556
00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:35.359
I mean I was a teenager, you were a child.
557
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:38.759
Teenagers are still children. I like to remind myself of
558
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:42.599
that because it's easy to forget. But like, responsibility is
559
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:46.240
what I was seeing, dedication to your sister. Panic that
560
00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:48.319
you were in it yourself, and your sister was potentially
561
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:50.880
like gone, you went to an adult, which is what
562
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:52.960
I know I would tell my kid to do. And
563
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:55.240
instead of your mom being like thanks so much for
564
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:58.440
making sure your sister was okay, it was like here's
565
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:02.279
some magazines, like here's my rage for you to hold.
566
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.880
I hope my mom doesn't listen to this episode.
567
00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:10.839
Well, I think if we circle back to right and
568
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:14.160
wrong right, and this is really important, like can we
569
00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:16.920
understand when people are just regulated and they have their
570
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:19.599
feelings and they should have done something maybe, but they
571
00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:23.359
chose to follow what was coming up most in them?
572
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:26.240
Is she wrong or bad for that? Now she's just
573
00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:30.400
a human? And was did you deserve something better?
574
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:35.720
Yes, that's fair. It's really gray, and I think constantly changing.
575
00:30:35.799 --> 00:30:37.200
Like I saw a thing where was like should we
576
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.240
judge like George Washington, and it's like, well, it's I mean, granted,
577
00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:43.960
you can't put away what people did in the past
578
00:30:43.960 --> 00:30:47.119
that was horrible, but like sometimes maybe it's not the
579
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:49.240
best example, but sometimes people are just doing their best
580
00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:49.920
with what they got.
581
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:54.000
Right, I think too good and bad, right and wrong,
582
00:30:54.039 --> 00:30:56.039
Like that's a way for our brains to make sense
583
00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:58.839
of and structure something. And I was literally on the
584
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:00.920
way here this morning, I put a note in my
585
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:04.680
phone that I will just it's a sentence, but it says,
586
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:08.160
because you know, structure can be really helpful. But I
587
00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:13.240
put when structure turns into rigidity, the sort the intention
588
00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:18.240
of regulation becomes avoidance. So when we look at is
589
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:20.599
this right or wrong? What we're not usually looking for
590
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:22.640
is is it actually right or wrong? But we're looking
591
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:24.799
for how do I make sense of this and move on?
592
00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:28.079
How can I like put someone into a category easily
593
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:30.480
so I can see if they're safe to me? And
594
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:31.480
it's not that simple.
595
00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:34.640
Yeah, it doesn't. Right around, just come. Primarily the core
596
00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:36.880
of it is down to safety. Right sure? Is it
597
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:39.160
like that is a bad thing because it's causing me
598
00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:41.319
potential harm? That is a good thing because it's a
599
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:43.759
something that is beneficial to me.
600
00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:46.400
I think it depends on you the way you look
601
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:47.799
at it. The way I look at it right and
602
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:50.559
wrong is like I helpe people look at like what
603
00:31:50.599 --> 00:31:53.559
are your values and is this behavior aligning with those
604
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:57.599
values or not? Because like, we can easily label someone,
605
00:31:57.880 --> 00:31:59.920
but what we're really saying is how you're treating me?
606
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:00.720
Is it okay?
607
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:03.319
You know what's funny is the other ones. I was
608
00:32:03.559 --> 00:32:05.720
the other like memories that I have associated like this
609
00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:08.599
that kind of are like this. I'm very cognizant of
610
00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:10.759
the fact that my mom like one of them, like
611
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.079
my mom wasn't well, like she had a migraine and
612
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:14.640
whatever else, and it related to the same thing. So
613
00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:16.519
in other words, I knew what it was related to
614
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:20.079
this one. I did not, for example, like I just
615
00:32:20.119 --> 00:32:25.440
didn't know that's what was happening at the same time. Anyway. Sorry, yeah, no,
616
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:28.480
not that this matters. You're literally just hearing external thought
617
00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:35.319
at this point. This is literally white noise. No on
618
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:38.000
that note, I'm going to go over in the corner
619
00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:40.480
and cry and I'll see you guys like, no, I'm
620
00:32:40.519 --> 00:32:42.960
just kidding that, but like such a hug moment. But
621
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:48.880
we're in three different places. Oh man, Now it feels
622
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:53.200
weird to be like Jenna who won, Like do you
623
00:32:53.240 --> 00:32:56.039
know what's good? Do you know what's good? Is my
624
00:32:56.039 --> 00:33:00.559
my therapist listens to the podcast. So hey, buddy, perfect,
625
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:03.279
this was for you. Let's make sure we talk about
626
00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:04.599
this at the end of next week.
627
00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:06.079
I want to meet you.
628
00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:09.880
Hey, buddy, I'm fine though I'm trauma free. Don't you worry?
629
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:11.200
Yeah? Me too.
630
00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:13.519
Well, well, I mean, I guess the structure is to
631
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:15.640
pick a winner. I don't know that feels. How do
632
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:18.480
we feel about that today? Yeah? What do you want?
633
00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:22.480
I mean, I don't. I think this is very Jenna
634
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:25.519
Codd though. I think both of you had really great points,
635
00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:28.480
and I think those points were even different that like,
636
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:31.200
if I could call it a truce, I would great.
637
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:34.799
I'll take a truce on this one. We both win.
638
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:37.839
Everyone's a winner today. So Jenna, what what are what
639
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:40.839
will we be discussing next week?
640
00:33:41.319 --> 00:33:45.599
So I brought a friend. This is a tiny that
641
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:48.599
I guess if we're not on a video, they can't
642
00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:51.799
see if this is a tiny worm. So here's the thing.
643
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:53.559
I work with a lot of nerd eve vergent people.
644
00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:56.200
I myself a nerd e vergent. What we love is fun,
645
00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:59.720
trinkety dopamine things. And so we have a little trinket
646
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:02.839
ex exchange in the front lobby for folks who want
647
00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:05.000
to come and share like that. And there's a concept
648
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:08.519
called pebbling and it's something that penguins do. And I
649
00:34:08.599 --> 00:34:11.320
recently found out that Michael is a penguin fan, which
650
00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:14.760
really wrapped this all up for me very nicely. So
651
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:20.159
penguins share, That's how they show love, and they like
652
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:22.800
bring little trinkets and things like that. So pebbling is
653
00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:23.880
going to be your next topic.
654
00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:27.800
I love this. Yeah, I have a penguin on my
655
00:34:28.039 --> 00:34:31.000
it's the home screen whatever you call it, on my
656
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:34.679
phone from when I was on a trip and we're
657
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:37.320
in a penguin colony and this little adolescent penguin and
658
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:39.119
I sat and just stared at the ocean together for
659
00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:41.719
like ten minutes and literally just had this moment of
660
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:44.719
pure zen with a little adolescent penguin and Jenna, What
661
00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:47.079
did I told you what pebling reminds me of?
662
00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:50.239
You did? I was worried about saying pebbling for this reason,
663
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:51.039
but I.
664
00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:54.320
Said, pebbling reminds me of what happens when I take
665
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:57.880
ZEP bound and need to go to the bathroom. Oh God, well,
666
00:34:57.920 --> 00:34:59.800
that's actually not what I thought you were going to say.
667
00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:03.639
So great, hy, Great water is good?
668
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:07.119
Do you know what's funny? John? Is Like, as we
669
00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:10.159
all know, my internet connection has been shit through this thing,
670
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:13.440
and your video is not high quality, and all I
671
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:15.800
could see you holding up was like a little pink thing,
672
00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:17.920
and I thought it was a little pink penis. I
673
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:21.000
thought it was a little that's what it looks like
674
00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:23.840
because of the video quality, and I was like, oh God,
675
00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:26.320
what is she holding up? And where is this going?
676
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:27.679
In my office?
677
00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:28.440
In your office?
678
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:32.400
Well, what's funny is we celebrate pride here in September
679
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:35.519
because we're in North Carolina, and so it's in two weeks.
680
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:37.320
And I bought a bench of little trinkets for it,
681
00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:38.920
and they send me this giant pack and in it,
682
00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:41.920
I'm like, wait a second, there's some like tiny penises,
683
00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:45.079
and I'm like, amazing, So I'll send you one.
684
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:47.639
It reminds me of It reminded me. I have these
685
00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:50.760
little penises that are meant to go. They have like
686
00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:53.360
a little hole in the back. They're like little little dildos,
687
00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:56.519
and they're intended to go on light switches. So I
688
00:35:56.599 --> 00:35:58.679
take them with me when I go to people's parties
689
00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:02.400
and I deposit them on peace both light switches. That's
690
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:07.159
so funny. That's my that's my form of pebble. That's hilarious.
691
00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:10.480
All right, Well we'll be back next week for pebbling. Jenna,
692
00:36:10.519 --> 00:36:13.840
thank you so much thanks Jenna. This was a blast.
693
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:14.679
It was great