S4E183 | Before It Breaks | Dr. Gearl Loden

the ykm: The single most important thing for a leader to have trust in their organization is the leader's got to have self-leadership. And what's frightening is, and I've done this before, I hate to admit it, but you have a blow up with your team and you want to fix it, you want to get involved, we're dealing with what's happened immediately. But that's not it. The problem is not the problem that you think it is. It's what happened six months ago that started it. So you have to go back. What if you turn hardship into greatness? Anger into serenity? Everything changes. Make your life a masterpiece. Have you ever wondered how to build trust within an organization and why trust is key in order for you to succeed, especially your organization, and how to actually build trust? This and much more now. Welcome Dr. Lohren to the show to really discuss your newly published book before it breaks the seven pillars of trust. Every leader must build. Published by Loden Leadership Press 2026. And before we start, congratulations for this huge effort. Yannick, I am so excited to be back with you. You we've chatted before and you you've registered for some of my master classes, but... I'm a veteran leader and live in a leadership lab every day. And something I've learned, you if you read some of the great books out there, like John Maxwell say that everything rises and falls of leadership. And I thoroughly believe that. But after being a veteran leader and also coaching leaders in education and other fields. I've come to believe that the foundation of everything that we do as leaders is based around trust. And I we've all felt it when you're in an environment where you have high levels of trust, everything flows and you don't have fear. And then when you have fractures in trust, then you can all of a sudden have, you know, you have a situation where you are not able to trust, not vulnerable, you're delaying your actions and you just have fear. Let's just make sure that we understand clearly you already defined it to some extent but define trust for us in a tangible matter. ⁓ When I look at being a leader, I've been in environments where I've had higher levels of trust, lower levels of trust. And when you talk to people, they can tell you, think most people would say they've been in environments where you've had higher levels of trust. They've also been in lower levels of trust. But when you start talking about it, it's almost like a feeling instead of an operational system that you put in that guides you. And that's the attempt, the book that I have is a lot different. There's some great research on trust. There's books out there about trust, but the whole foundation is taking the experience I've gained from coaching others and working as a leader and putting us in some operational practices that you can help to shape trust and manage trust. it's a part of your procedures and your culture. explain what trust gap needs attention before it widens? Well, I think at times we think of a trust as being something that just happens like, boom, there's a big event and you don't have trust. And that happens in some organizations. But in the majority of organizations, when you have gaps is when things are delayed, like you'll have an issue and you don't address it. You'll assume as a leader, it'll take care of itself. And then what happens is you have fractures over time. You may not realize as a leader, you're sending a signal that you don't care or that you won't take care of things. And you'll have one employee that gets away with doing all kinds of things. And then you lose your credibility and your team starts not having trust in you. Or when you have to make difficult decisions, not involving your people, not communicating with clarity, not communicating at all. And what happens is, is over time, You have fractures in trust and multiple pillars. And what's frightening is, and I've done this before, I hate to admit it, but you have a blow up with your team and you want to fix it. You want to get involved. We're dealing with what's happened immediately, but that's not it. The problem is not the problem that you think it is. It's what happened six months ago that started it. So you have to go back. I mean, you're a teacher, I'm a teacher. Usually the people get in trouble. with each other, mad at each other, friends, and it's not because of one thing, but it's because of things that are building. As leaders we're the same as educators, as employees, as workers, we all have that where if we're not careful we can have lots of fractures that end up being something that's really bad as far as not having a lot of trust. In order to cultivate trust, if someone, let's say, starts a leadership position in a new school, what's the very first thing you would suggest he does? in order to really start this journey of trust because it's built, right? As you say. Oh, we're just understanding that before you go in, getting to know your people, meeting them in one-on-ones, communicating very clearly, honoring the past and what's there, and taking what's there and shaping it and make it your own over time. Now, there's environments where you may be hired to be a turnaround person, places in bad shape, and you have to go in at a faster pace, but still, the relationships, the connecting with people. You can have all the plans in the world and culture is gonna drive everything. And you can have slogans on the walls and all, but when you get into a building, a company, you can have all those slogans and all, but the culture is gonna be different. And you'll have different little mini cultures between the different teams there and understanding the dynamics at play. And that comes from learning people. ⁓ I use a principle called the Platinum Rule where, In every faith, there's a version of the golden rule where you say, treat others like you want to be treated, but I need to really get to know you so I can treat you the way you prefer to be treated. And you may love to be praised or recognized publicly. Someone else may not like that. They just want to have a good sour and you to pat them on the back and say, you're doing a good job. How can I support you? know, people are so different and just being able to connect with them is going to help you to build trust. And two, as a leader being vulnerable, you don't have to be perfect. And when you make mistakes, model that, that it's okay to fail, to make a mistake, that you can learn from it and grow. When did you have this epiphany that you realized, wow trust is really essential in order to lead my organization to success because you are an award-winning leader. when walk us through when you had this epiphany that wow actually probably the most important variable within a organization is actually fostering and building trust. ⁓ You know, think I've always realized that trust is essential, but you know, early on when you're a new leader, everything is important. It's hard to discern what's really the focus areas. You get hit with a lot of new things and you start learning. You learn to filter, you learn to manage better. ⁓ You may be someone like me early on, was really goal oriented and I did care about my people, but probably did not demonstrate it as well as I should. ⁓ as you evolve, you realize the foundation of everything's trust. You know, you think you're supposed to know everything. You're not supposed to all the answers. You're supposed to trust your people to work with you, to come up with the answers and the plans and just being vulnerable. So I think as I've matured as a leader, I've realized more and more the importance of trust. The importance of being vulnerable. The importance of just being a human, letting people see the human side of you. Has it ever occurred to you that you felt that someone did not have the trust in you? And that it had in one way or another an impact on you and really on your performance. ⁓ yes. ⁓ yeah, one thing I do to the people that are coach now is I'll ask them, do you have people on your team that you don't trust? Or you sense that they don't trust you. And if you're not trusting someone, odds are they don't trust you. The biggest thing about it is in the book, I have a protocol, 72 hour protocol. And I think if we implemented this in every organization, we could change the world. But if I'm working with you and we're in a team meeting and I feel like something's off or maybe we didn't have the best connection or maybe you're just off, give it 72 hours and think about it, reflect on it, and then go and sit down with, I'll sit down with you and we'll just talk. Hey, how's everything going? Is there anything wrong? Is there anything we're not clear on? And I've learned there's times where I may think, know, ⁓ you know, Yannick doesn't want to do this. Yannick doesn't like this. And I just realized, you know, when we talk, you're about to go in because you've got a, you've got something you need to get checked out. That might be cancer. You need a biopsy and you've got something else on your mind and you're off. Or there's times where, yes, maybe you were quiet in the meeting because you didn't understand and you were afraid to come to me. Well, if you're a new employee, you may be afraid to cause you're, he's this Dr. Loden. Well, that helps me to. tear down some boundaries and make the connection that, yes, I want to know. I want you to work with me. Why should trust precede every single leadership decision? Trust is the one thing like your reputation. You can work all your life to have it, be a person of good character and it takes just a few minutes to erode it, to break it down and it's hard to repair. Well, if you're in an organization that has high levels of trust, if it's part of your culture, that's just part of your DNA. You're going to think about how do we communicate, who's been involved in the decision. What questions will they have? What do we need? How do we need to send it out? What will be clear? What will clarity look like? Also, you'll plan if things are not clear, things are not going the way they should, well, what will probably be the reasons for that? So you already have backup plans of what will success look like? Now, if you're in an organization that has to add low levels of trust and issues, you've got to communicate in a different way where upfront, you have knowledge. You know, we've had some hard times. I'm going to be very honest with you. I'm going to be very truthful with you, even if it's not good. ⁓ One proactive manner is like in communities or in your systems, letting people know that if there's bad news, here's how we communicate it. So they know kind of your playbook and they're ready to ⁓ hold you accountable for doing what you're saying you're going to do. It's also really about fostering and predictability. think it's very important. ⁓ yeah. a leader to foster that so people actually have a sense of where they are at. And that is so important, just being consistent. ⁓ You know, you don't have to, I don't have to always like my leader or want to hang out with my leader and go out to eat dinner with him. I want a leader that's going to be consistent so I know that they're not Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde, that you're the same every day. I kind of know what to expect. I know how to read them. You don't want to someone that people don't know how to read you and ⁓ is this a good day to talk to him? No, he's in a bad mood. You need to wait till another day. You don't want to have that. And one thing that I frame in the book that's a little different too, because I have a pillar, it's about consistency. But consistency is not always just about the leader, but it's about having the systems that are consistent. really anyone can do the job if they're in that role. But people also know what to expect. They work together in teams, they flow together across organization. So you don't have surprises because there's nothing more frustrating when you have teams operating in silos and they don't trust each other. They're not sharing knowledge. They're not sharing resources because there's like a competition or a low level of trust. So having consistency in their organization is so important in building trust. What do you think is the more important trust and trusting really your employees in order for them to really perform as well as possible? Or is it more... being able to hire the best people in terms of their competency. What would you think is more important for an organization? I'm going to say just like I would with educational leaders, if you gave me a building full of great teachers and I had to put a marginal leader in, or if I were going to put a really good leader in, just an average building, I would go with average. building with a great leader because in three years, people are going rise to the occasion. They're going to be developed. You'll attract people that are very high performing. High performers do not like being in an average environment. They want to be in an environment where they can thrive. So if you're a leader and you have high standards and you communicate thoroughly with your people and you give them the freedom when they earn the right. And what I mean by that is situational leadership. want to know your talents and your skills and put you in that zone and let you thrive. But when you're new, I may be closer to you checking in more because I want to know how you're doing, how I can support you. And also trying to learn about you because in the fields I've been in and learning environments, you always look for job enrichment so people can do other things and stretch out. And like in my first state, I was at as a superintendent. had at one time, I think a 7 % of superintendents in the state, I'd hired or recruited and it worked for me as a principal or in the central office in Missouri. I've been here eight years and I already have. three people that are superintendents that have worked in our district. And it's exciting when you can help develop people and they're telling you, I wanna be a leader and you can put them in different situations and support them. Then that helps to build trust when people see that. What do you think is the biggest obstacle really for a leader to start this trust building? What do you think or what did you really experience as a leader from your own leaders that you lead that you think like that's the biggest obstacle for them to really to foster and build trust but also to lead with trust? The one thing you're not going to see in most of the books, the books that are out there about trust are going to have the pillars similar to mine or priorities, and they're going to talk about care, consistency, communication. And they're all very, very important. And you can frame them different ways, but the single most important thing for a leader to have trust in their organization is the leader's got to have self leadership. The hardest person for me to lead is Gerald Lowden. And if I'm able to trust myself and I'm able to read and put good things in and I... and I have the right priorities, the right character. Then when some pressure gets on me, I'm going to be able to really show that I do have courage to lead. I have the character to lead. And if I trust myself and have confidence in myself, that means I'm going to be able to want people around me that are very bright, talented, not afraid to push back. And they're going to trust that I have their, I care for them and I support them and we can have synergy around each other. There's nothing better than having a lot of people that are very smart and bright with great ideas coming together and Banner back and forth until they reach consensus. And then what you have is better than any one person could ever create. But if I go in and I don't trust myself and I want to hire people that are not as smart as me, and I want people to just, yes, people, people that look and act just like me, that I'm set in the stage. Because, know, in a world where everybody looks at what's different, if we look at what's common, it doesn't matter what religion you are or where you're from. If we focus on what's common and our goals are similar, then we can really work together and use our differences as a strength. You really mentioned really the great Peter Drucker and Maxwell, right? They really put this forward and you really live it, you know, from day to day. Tell me what you think is the hardest part in self-knowledge, in managing yourself. Oh, goodness. You know, most people, have, oh gosh, I don't have the status in my mind right now, but... Typically, I think it's 85 % of the people or 90 % of the people going to say they're self-aware. But when you look at the surveys on it, there'll be between five and 10 % that are really self-aware. The more you can be self-aware, the more I realize that I see Gerald Oden one way, but my wife sees me a different way, my kids, you'll see me a different way. There's a million Gerald Oden's that people see. But when I'm able to understand where I'm strong, where I'm weak, I can play to my talents. I put people around me that support me and the areas that have blind spots, the better I'm going to be. And ⁓ it's funny, we were just looking at the, ⁓ not a strengths finder, but ⁓ a similar test the other day where we were a cabinet and we were all laughing because we all know each other. We've had enough of these now and we take different versions. We know each other's strengths and our cabinet really flows together. I have this great leadership team, but they all look at me because my highest is always in the ability to see things no one sees and be creative. But then also there's other strengths is I can take the things that we have and see other opportunities and tweak them more. But now the actual day to day implementation, I get out of the way because I'm weak there. I can activate, I can start implementing, but the day to day grind where you've got to dot everything and cross everything perfectly, that's not me. ⁓ And just knowing that, that gives me strength because I know where I do things that I enjoy. And one thing I encourage people to do, There are some people that really good at things that don't give them joy, don't charge their batteries. Even if you're good at something, make sure it's something you enjoy. And it's also what you're really describing is you're great at synthesis, right? Take in all the different information, listening and so on. When you look back, initially when you started as a leader and now, what were some of the things that you think like, wow, I really improved this tremendously, which ultimately really led to this book and how it relates as well to trust building. I'll give you a couple of things. Like in the book, I talk about people at times think they've got to be perfect. They can't make a mistake. And I'll argue that if you go to most teams and say, your leader ever made a mistake? they came to, well, first of all, has your leader ever made a mistake? they're like, yes, they make mistakes all the time. Well, have they admitted it and told you that and what they were going to do in the future? Well, no, they haven't done that. Well, you can actually build credibility when you acknowledge, look, we all planned this. It was supposed to work. We monitored it. It did not work. Here's what we learned from it. Here's what we'll do in the future. When you model that as a leader, you're modeling that for your team. One thing I've had to work on myself is early on, you know, you get, as a leader, you get tagged a few times, burned a few times. So then, okay, you start being leery like a, okay, can I trust this person? Or you start thinking. Yannick's doing this and he's really up to something or Yannick's just not doing his job or whatever and you're ready to call him into a meeting and talk to him, know, put them on a plan or whatever. And then when you start talking to him, you're like, I had it all wrong. I had it all wrong. So that helped me to shift into, I'm not going to assume anything. I'm going to get the person in, let them share. I'm not going to be listening to because of what I think, I'm going to be listening to them and trying not to respond but to really process what they're doing so I have understanding. That changed everything that I do. That changed everything. But I also imagine it was super hard to actually embark on this journey. because most people always have their assumption, right? And it's also to some extent a mechanism that is important, right? Because we have to simplify our world, right? And therefore assumptions occasionally are right and or not so much. so how did you really get better at that from the very conception of being because it's one thing being aware and becoming aware conceptually, but it's a whole other game. actually implementing it and actually listening to this person. It's very hard and you can read books and yeah, often I've done this. You'll read a book, I'm going to do this. You start trying it, then you get hit with reality and you're busy. Then you go back like teachers, you send them to great professional development or you have a great trainer and they want to do that. And then you get so busy, the next thing you know, you're going back to what you know. ⁓ So being intentional about goal setting. having a cycle where I, especially during the summer and then near Christmas, I do a lot of just reflecting mid-year. But then I have a good process now that I use each week for reflection, just trying to do a better job of taking care of myself. And then one thing I've done is there are certain things that your ego is gonna flare up. And like I'll teach about boundary conditioning and how you have to lean into the discomfort. Well, there's times where early on that was hard for me. And now like if someone presents something and I feel myself, I'm not going to do that. Or I go to a training or listen to something and I'm like, I'm just not going to do that. Now I make sure to go back to it, think about it. Why did that flare my ego up? And I said, I wouldn't do it. There's got to be a nugget in there. So even if I don't do it, I'm going go in and try to look for some nuggets opportunities, you know, like a new way to do things or just something I could learn. And yet probably the best thing for me is like, ⁓ You know, I do the coaching, I'm going to get certifications in it, but I make sure that I always have a coach, a personal coach. Cause they can, when you start flaring up, you start shifting your body certain ways and you know, you're getting into defenses, they can really dig in and help you to start processing and thinking through things. It's nice having the accountability partner that's trained professionals really good at that. That's amazing. I'm also very curious how you actually do it because. what you are really showing especially also in the book and I haven't read it but I will it will be my joy you know during the summer really but what I really want to know is why is trust especially your book so critical now because trust especially in a context in which polarization is increasing even within organizations why do you think it is so critical now Well, if we're going to be leaders that leave something sustainable, that's a legacy beyond us, you you, you just, you've got to have trust. You can go in and be a numbers person and go all about numbers and do the results and say to the world where I've got results. You know, may be the person that's going in and you're trying to get a SaaS company up big enough you can sell it, or you're trying to turn a hospital around that's underperforming so it can be merged or whatever, but. At the end of the day, you may be playing a numbers game, but if you're not taking care of your people and building a team and a culture space around trust, then it's not sustainable. You may have games, but they're short-term games. You know, like in education, you can go in and do all the prepping and everything in the world and your scores can come up. the kids sustain them? Probably not. It's got to be authentic. And when people know that you're, they know that you're consistent. They know you have character. They know that you care for them and care doesn't mean it has to be all lovey-dovey, but part of care is making sure that they have a brisk business-like environment where they know what's expected, but also the workload is manageable enough that they have time to take care of their people. They have time to think about the future. If you ever get so lean that you're working all the time and you ever can put your head up and you don't have time to think or reflect or the managers don't have time to check in on the people. And you're setting the stage for mistakes, burnout, other things. the end of the day, we're all about connections and people. Even the people that are maybe more introverted, they like, in a lot of ways, being around people and being able to have connections. They may not be the most talkative, but they, like me, I'm kind of introverted in some ways. I may be quiet, but I'm still, I want to be around people. What is the relationship between work climate and trust? ⁓ that they go hand in hand. If you enjoy the environment or the culture in, then you're going to have higher levels of trust. ⁓ Organizations like I would say in the Asian models where you have more of the OTQ in, where you have a culture where all employees are empowered. You don't have the titles per se, everybody dressed as the same. They have that culture of You know, if the employee sees a problem, they can report it. They're not going to get in trouble. The hospitals where you really have the timeouts and the nurses really believe in the timeout. So they see that there's an issue and then they have to worry about the doctor chewing them out because they stopped the procedure. Organizations like we have in education where the pay is going to be very similar. You may make a few thousand dollars somewhere close by, but At the end of the day, the pay's not worth it if you enjoy your team. If I have a good administrator I trust, I like working with my team, I like that climate, that culture, then I'm not gonna leave because I enjoy the people we're in. Because often, we're around the people at work more in quality time than we are our spouses at night. If you think about it, you have a couple hours at home, then you're getting ready to work, you're getting ready to go to bed, you're sleeping, but during the day, you're around people for multiple hours. So you wanna enjoy the people you're with. It's amazing. as you know, John Maxwell, he wrote that people don't leave organization, but they actually leave people, right? And therefore it is so important. When did you realize that, hey, it's all about, not all about, but almost all about really good sound connections and really relationships? I think I made that connection actually a long time ago before I got into leadership roles because You're going to school, you're looking at all the studies and you know, we're in an organization where a lot of our teachers are coming from environments. Maybe they're not into the sports as much, but they've been working in situations where they're more about trusting others, working together, playing together. The cooperative learning that we do with our kids. Our teachers by nature are designed to share and work together. And you know, was a day like when I first started out, you were given an old book and it didn't have any resources until to go and teach. And you shut the door and you didn't plan together, work together. But now we have, I mean, we have a culture where our teachers plan together. They work together. They come in and they're vulnerable. They lay out how their kids did and they go over how which kids did well, which kids did not. And they share strategies because even the best teacher, mean, when I was a teacher, I was a good solid teacher, but those times where I taught lessons. that I knew were gonna be great. My kids didn't get it. And if a friend of mine taught a similar lesson and the kids were doing well, I'm like, let me, I'm gonna steal your ideas. I wanna come and see you teach that. I want you to come and do this. Let me watch you. And that helped me to get better. And that's the one thing I liked about our teams. You know, when you're in a team, now I never put all the innovators together, you'll have chaos, but mix some innovators in and some traditionals in. You're going to have the traditional saying, I'm not going to do that, but the innovators are going to try things. And when they hit a home run, then the more traditional teachers are going to be like, okay, you're doing really well with that. Show me how to do that now. So it helps you to evolve with controlled innovation. When and how did you start really writing the book? You know, I've shared my story with you before. I was a kid, a lot of teachers, they had all the testing back in. When I entered school, it would have been afraid of me. I was dyslexic. I didn't know that until later on. ADHD, colorblind, had to have speech and all this good stuff. So if you were telling my teachers in high school and elementary school, I'd be right in the booth. They'd be like, there's no way. And ⁓ several years ago, I said, okay, I've had a great career. I love what I do. ⁓ when other people are talking like they're in jail and getting paroled, I'm like, no, I've got a perpetual three to five years. love what I'm doing. But I just said, okay, got two sons that are going to probably be leaders. I want to write a book someday for them. And literally about a year and a half ago, I just pulled a trigger and said, I'm going to pay a guy to make a website. I'm going to start writing. And yet I, I know this, when I go back and look at some of the people I love and I look at their first stuff, they were writing like five, six, seven years ago. I'm like, it's not the same. I've only been doing it for a year and a half, but my first videos and blogs and all were just, oh, they were so bad compared to what they are now. But I started writing and have really enjoyed that. Did some master classes in the fall. And I found about two or three topics that I thought these are all of the books, but I want to really teach these. And when I taught the one on trust, that was like the best master class I ever had. People that were running teams for Phillips, know, Norelco, Phillips Lighting, had Kimberly Clark engineers. had a... Caterpillar, Tump's machinery guys, the sales guy, just educators, healthcare people, all cross sections. People from multiple countries. from Columbia to India to Canada. And it was so much fun. And the one thing I learned is trust is something we're all working on. Different cultures may, certain things may mean different things, but then the day it's about working together. So that's kind of how the book evolved. And I started writing like everything. So. After my master class is finished up, I've been riding like every night and it's so therapeutic. Give us one example. If you feel like you somehow screwed up and you broke the trust with someone, what's the very third thing you generally do in order to make it that it doesn't break fully? I'm going to steer just a few things from the book. Probably the best protocol in the book is a 72-hour protocol. and it's in detail in the book, but the basic jest is when you feel like or sense there's a fracture, address it. Because often when things do explode and they're really bad, people want to get involved, like the leader wants to get involved because of the two teachers or the two nurses that's getting into an issue. But it's not because of that. That's not the problem. The problem is really something happened a long time ago and it's been building. So that would be something I would say that you do. The other thing I encourage people not to do is often people will apologize. Well, when you tell me you're sorry, that's not doing anything for me. I want you to tell me, look, I'm sorry this happened. Here's what I did and here's what I'm going to do in the future. And then when you have issues in the future, if you're doing what you told them you're going to do, you're building trust. When you actually give them that action and they know what you're going to do though, and you draw a line in the sand, then they're holding you accountable. And when you do it in a repetitive manner, you're building trust. And when you do that, you can have more credibility than someone that acts like they're perfect. Someone that, you know, the employers are like, Dr. Lowe makes mistakes all the time, but Dr. Lowe never admits them. People will trust you when they hear you say, I made a mistake, I'm sorry it happened, but here's what I'm going to do in the future. But just saying, I made a mistake and I'm sorry it happened, that doesn't do a lot if you don't really make it concrete. something they know you're going to do. Why is it so hard for most people to do exactly what you just said? I think we think at times as a leader that we've got to be riding in on a white horse and saving everyone or we're supposed to be perfect. You know, the ego flares up and you know, leaders are going to mistakes. You get hit with so many decisions. There's times where you've got all these big decisions and something that may in your mind may be Small is not small to someone else or you may miss something because you're fatigued or you just may miss something because you don't involve enough people in brainstorming around the blind spots. So as a leader, you're not going to be perfect, but when you do have fractures, just being able to address them, it means so much to build credibility. How does consistency really shape your team's confidence? And just maybe go through quickly the seven pillars of trust because the Cs, right? These seven Cs are very powerful without really going into details because we want to obviously people to really buy and purchase the book because it's now actually available online. So go online and we put down the link. Before it breaks the seven pillars of trust every leader must build and of course don't forget and really check out dr. Laudens outstanding website Laudenleadership.com Dr. Girl Laude, that's why knowledge matters Make your life a masterpiece! Visit now programs.d-ykm.com ⁓