#74 What work teaches us about being human

WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:05.080
Welcome to Wealthy Living Conversations. I'm Lisa, your host and
2
00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:09.199
founder of Wealthy Living. It's here that I connect with
3
00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:13.919
a variety of wonderful humans to have inspiring and insightful
4
00:00:13.960 --> 00:00:19.719
conversations to help you live a meaningful, connected, and well life,
5
00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:26.120
both personally and professionally. So a big part of living
6
00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:30.519
a meaningful and connected life is understanding people and places
7
00:00:30.559 --> 00:00:36.280
and systems that shape our experience. And one of those
8
00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:40.560
systems that has a profound impact on our well being,
9
00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:44.719
ships our sense of purpose, and even how we see ourselves.
10
00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:48.240
It has the potential to bring out the best in us,
11
00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:51.679
but it also can be a source of stress and
12
00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:57.119
uncertainty and poor mental health. Now there's been a growing
13
00:00:57.159 --> 00:01:04.159
conversation about creating healthier workplaces with new psychosocial regulations placing
14
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:10.239
greater responsibility on organizations to identify and manage risks to
15
00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:16.439
psychological health. But beyond the legislation and the workplace jargon,
16
00:01:17.079 --> 00:01:23.400
what makes the biggest difference? What have we learned from
17
00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:30.040
listening to people who experience workplace culture every day? So
18
00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:33.840
joining me today is Mike Jensen. So someone I've had
19
00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:37.079
the privilege of working alongside over the past few months
20
00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:42.719
helping organizations better understand workplace cultures by listening to their
21
00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:47.120
employees and their leaders across a wide range of organizations,
22
00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:51.680
hearing their stories, their frustrations, their hopes, and what makes
23
00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:55.120
people thrive at work. So along the way, Mike and
24
00:01:55.159 --> 00:02:00.319
I have had some really curious conversations about what work
25
00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:04.159
and teach us, about people, about leadership, about well being.
26
00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:06.879
So I thought it was time to have Mike on
27
00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:10.520
the show so that we could dive a little bit
28
00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:14.319
deeper into this topic. So, Mike, it's always such a
29
00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:17.280
pleasure to speak to you, and I welcome you to
30
00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:19.199
Wealthy Living Conversations.
31
00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:21.919
Thank you, Lisa, good to see you.
32
00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:26.479
Yes, so let's just start a little bit about you.
33
00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:30.560
So you didn't actually started doing this work. You began
34
00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:34.520
your career as a lawyer. But how did you end
35
00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:34.960
up here?
36
00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:40.240
Oh wow, okay, so that's a long story. Yes, So
37
00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:43.759
I was in a very different profession. I moved from
38
00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:47.199
the corporate field and that was a lot to do,
39
00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:50.319
I think with the culture and me just finding it
40
00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.319
really difficult to fit in the culture of corporate banking
41
00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:58.759
and finance. And I became a psychiatric lawyer, and which
42
00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:02.280
basically meant that I was looking with clients who had
43
00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:05.479
mental health issues and were often part of the institutions,
44
00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:08.960
and that whole systems of sort of going through the
45
00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:14.240
mental health review board. But it kind of I guess
46
00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:17.240
that just made me realize this whole other world of
47
00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:19.159
well being and mental illness that I was just not
48
00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:23.800
aware of. So that led to further study at UNI,
49
00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:27.240
setting up working in different fields. So I ended up
50
00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:31.639
working in change management, but also setting up a business
51
00:03:32.039 --> 00:03:34.879
with the psychologist because I think I discovered I've actually
52
00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:37.439
got a lot more in common with psychologists than the lawyers.
53
00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:41.199
And one of the things that we did is that
54
00:03:41.319 --> 00:03:43.840
he ran the EAP side of the business. I did
55
00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:48.560
the conflict resolution, and we did investigations, and investigations I
56
00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:52.360
found were really interesting because there was and still is
57
00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:57.000
a really big need for it. And look, I don't
58
00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:59.439
want to be down on investigations, Lisa, but you know,
59
00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:04.599
while they're necessary, they're really important, but when they're used
60
00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:10.120
to resolve complex processes and workplaces obviously affecting people, but
61
00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:12.439
as part of a bigger system, they don't always have
62
00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:15.560
the outcome that you'd want. And I think having done
63
00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:18.920
investigations and built up a fairly substantial part of the
64
00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:22.480
business and investigations I began to realize that they didn't
65
00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:27.120
always have a positive impact on the culture. So when
66
00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:31.439
you do it, and afterwards, often you have to kind
67
00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:33.959
of clean up the human mess, so to speak. So
68
00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:39.040
even though investigations now are very trauma informed, the process
69
00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:47.800
itself can be often is traumatic. And afterwards, you know,
70
00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:51.600
sometimes you have an inconclusive outcome to that investigation to
71
00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:54.879
look at a complex issue, and then what do you
72
00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:57.120
do after that? How do you move forwards? And sometimes
73
00:04:57.160 --> 00:05:00.199
the investigation touches on issues of culture, but you don't
74
00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:03.879
really dive into those aspects of the process. So that's
75
00:05:03.879 --> 00:05:07.120
when I thought, Wow, given the background in change that
76
00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:10.800
I have and in psychology and the law in terms
77
00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:13.439
of work health and safety, I thought, this is about
78
00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:15.720
twenty years ago that I started to look at the
79
00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:18.800
culture aspects of workplaces.
80
00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:24.439
Yeah, and I agree with you, you know what you
81
00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:29.160
say about investigations, because yeah, you can create a lot
82
00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:33.079
more trouble I suppose within the workplace, or unease or
83
00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:36.560
discomfort that even though you're trying to solve an issue,
84
00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:41.319
sometimes it can make an issue bigger. So you went
85
00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:42.959
on to do postgrade studies.
86
00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:46.560
Yes, I'm doing prose grad studies now at Flinder's UNI.
87
00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:49.279
Yeap. And so tell me a little bit more about that.
88
00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:53.839
Yes, that's the part of it's in the School of
89
00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:58.120
Social Sciences, and it has to do with the actual
90
00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:02.160
title of the program is Leading Mental Health in Workplaces,
91
00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:06.360
so it's looking at all aspects of people's mental health,
92
00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:10.720
mental illness, well being. And the particular lenses it brings
93
00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:13.120
to it include the legal, so the work health and
94
00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:18.800
safety requirements, but also very much the psychological. And also
95
00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:22.720
there's also the social context, so I guess you should
96
00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:26.439
call that, you know, the sociological because it looks at
97
00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:31.079
mental health and well being within larger contexts and social systems.
98
00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:34.639
So that can be for the community or it can
99
00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:39.360
be in workplaces as well. So yeah, I've been doing this. Sorry,
100
00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:42.240
go oh, there you go. No, I'm just saying I've
101
00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:46.319
been doing this for two years now and it's it's
102
00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:49.560
just marvelous. I love it. I find it interestingly, I
103
00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:52.399
find it challenging going back to UNI doing everything online
104
00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:56.040
and such a different experience from when I was at UNI,
105
00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:58.560
you know, way back in the last century.
106
00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:03.959
So you know, it's interesting because you're going back to
107
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:08.199
UNI to study more, and yet you've done a lot
108
00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:13.079
of workplace investigations. You've worked in with somebody in an
109
00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:15.680
EAP program, so you've sort of looked at a lot
110
00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:18.439
of the psychological stuff. You've kind of worked and done
111
00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:21.519
a lot of field work in that mental health area
112
00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:24.360
at work. So why did you actually decide to go
113
00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:25.120
back to UNI?
114
00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:32.439
Because it's an area where there's a lot of It's
115
00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:35.480
a complex area, and I really wanted to consolidate my
116
00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:38.480
knowledge in this area. I knew that I was focusing
117
00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:41.360
maybe on the more on the legal side. I wanted
118
00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:44.920
their psychological I wanted the insights from that psychological field.
119
00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:48.920
But I think Lisa I also discovered too that there's
120
00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:50.959
a lot of stuff in this space where people are
121
00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:56.959
implementing actions, and I'm thinking, what's the is this evidence spaceed?
122
00:07:57.000 --> 00:07:59.160
What is the research behind a lot of the things
123
00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:01.959
that people are implement So, for example, people are implementing
124
00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:06.319
resilience training, which has been really big. You know, they've
125
00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:08.639
been doing mental health fir STAID training, which is great,
126
00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:10.959
really big, but they're sort of going in with these
127
00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:13.920
other solutions and there's a whole lot of other stuff,
128
00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:20.560
meditation practices, having fruit boxes in workplaces? What's the research
129
00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:23.040
behind that? Does it actually is it supportive by the
130
00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:26.079
evidence that these actually make a difference to many most
131
00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:30.639
people or only some people? Or is it not tapping
132
00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:33.399
into some wider systems issues that we might, you know,
133
00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:36.440
generally call the culture.
134
00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:42.759
And I think that little snippet there is probably a
135
00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:46.559
whole other conversation, and I've got a lot to say
136
00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:51.080
on that topic as well, but I'm interested in a
137
00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:56.120
really quick way, what's your opinion. Do you think that
138
00:08:56.159 --> 00:09:01.759
there's a conference behind it? What have you found? Yeah?
139
00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:10.120
Sure, Well the issue about some of the well, I
140
00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:12.399
don't want to say many, but some of the interventions
141
00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:17.519
tend to go to the mindset that mental health is
142
00:09:17.559 --> 00:09:22.320
the individual's responsibility, it's the employee's responsibility. And I think
143
00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:25.799
this is something I've often felt uncomfortable with because it
144
00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:29.440
was the sort of workplace that I that I first
145
00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:33.159
started out in the eighties, where it was like the
146
00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:36.960
odd the employer's obligation was about very basic health and
147
00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:43.320
safety issues, and the culture was geared towards really three things,
148
00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:48.120
increasing revenue, reduce cost, and manage risk. And this is
149
00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:49.600
what I used to think of it as like the
150
00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:54.559
holy Trinity of workplace cultures. It's really what they focus on.
151
00:09:55.720 --> 00:10:00.279
But what we know, and what I've learnt from post
152
00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:04.519
grade studies, is that mental health really occurs within a context,
153
00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:07.919
and it's not really accurate to say that it's just
154
00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:13.720
an individual's responsibility when within an organization, it is everyone's responsibility.
155
00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:18.840
And that is even though we may know that a
156
00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:21.919
lot of the policies, a lot of the practices that
157
00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:28.120
occur in workplaces, including how people report psychosocial hazard issues,
158
00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:32.679
kind of assumes are the responsibilities still on the individual?
159
00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:34.759
And I think that's that's a difficulty.
160
00:10:36.440 --> 00:10:39.399
Yeah, I think that that's a really big one actually,
161
00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:45.200
And what do you see as the implications when people
162
00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:49.440
are seeing that the responsibility lies on the individual?
163
00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:54.639
Okay, well, there's one example that comes to mind straight
164
00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:58.720
away is that when we talk about culture, one of
165
00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:00.759
the things that we look at that and by the way,
166
00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:04.559
or when we have work with culture, it's really really
167
00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:08.679
important to have a framework by which you can assess
168
00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:13.519
and understand. And that's why when we talked about psychosocial hazards,
169
00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:15.919
that's part of the framework. But the sort of thing
170
00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:18.919
that you look for in a culture too, is does
171
00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.919
it have a speak up culture? Do people feel comfortable
172
00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:26.519
doing that? And it's for a lot of reasons. One
173
00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:30.120
of the reasons is that, you know, decision makers and organizations,
174
00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:34.759
the bosses who occupy the corner offices, they rely on
175
00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:39.559
people below them to sort of move that information up
176
00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:42.000
the line in organizations so they have a clear line
177
00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:44.559
aside of what's going on, so then they can make
178
00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:48.639
informed decisions that can either positively or not so positively
179
00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:53.240
impact people's well being, but also the standards of that
180
00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:59.600
organization and its values. So when the individuals on the
181
00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:02.799
when the sort of onus is sometimes on the individual
182
00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:07.840
to speak up. People aren't always comfortable speaking up about
183
00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:10.519
issues where they don't have a lot of agency over.
184
00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:12.639
So that might be, for example, what they perceive to
185
00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:18.360
be bulling behavior in the workplace or workplace injustice, those
186
00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:21.559
sorts of things. There's a natural reluctance to speak up
187
00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:28.799
about that. So decision makers can they can kind of
188
00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:31.159
inhabit a fog where they think that, well, because not
189
00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:36.039
much is being reported, we're doing pretty well. Yeah, And again,
190
00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:40.519
you know, it's the responsibility of everyone to sort of
191
00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:45.919
understand what is the landscape, what are people experiencing. So
192
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:48.039
rather than just saying to people, Okay, if you have
193
00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.639
a problem, speak up about it, even if it's anonymous,
194
00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:54.679
because there's reluctance to do that because sometimes people don't
195
00:12:54.720 --> 00:13:01.000
know what happens to that information anyway. Yeah, it's sort
196
00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:04.720
of an awareness that has to be tackled in multiple ways,
197
00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:09.759
not just speaking up. So that's one example. I mean,
198
00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:12.000
if you want, I could give you another example too,
199
00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:16.679
which is about mental health stigma and mental illness stigma
200
00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:23.080
as well. So if organizations don't educate, are not aware
201
00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:26.720
about the issues of mental illness, then people may keep
202
00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:30.320
it to themselves because there's a difference between mental illness
203
00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:36.519
and mental health. They're like two different continua. So when
204
00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:39.519
people sort of feel not okay, they might feel judged,
205
00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.120
there might be some shame about it. It might actually
206
00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:46.399
come out as performance issues. So for someone who's suffering
207
00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:50.200
from a mental illness, for example, and their well being
208
00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:53.240
is not particularly good that day that week for whatever reasons,
209
00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:56.240
then the first thing that an employer might realize about
210
00:13:56.279 --> 00:14:02.440
it is, wow, their performance is going down, and you know,
211
00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.960
sometimes it means they go down the performance management path
212
00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:11.159
before really understanding what may be sitting beneath that. So again,
213
00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:17.279
stigma is related to a speak up culture as well.
214
00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:21.639
So yeah, it's about shifting it away from the owners
215
00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:27.240
on the individual and improving the awareness and the strategies
216
00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:31.000
that organizations have in understanding the cultures that they're the leading.
217
00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:37.200
Yeah. Look, you and I have both spent a lot
218
00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:41.639
of time over the last number of months going out
219
00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:47.559
to organizations. We've done focus groups and interviews, and we've
220
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:52.960
sat with a whole range of different people, and there
221
00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:58.159
are many times when an organization will truly, honestly believe
222
00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:02.360
that they have a speaker culture, and we find out
223
00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:06.559
very very quickly that the employees do not feel safe
224
00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:09.399
speaking up and that it isn't a very safe speak
225
00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:15.639
up culture. And also the second point, an example you
226
00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:19.200
gave was around the mental health stigma, and they You're right,
227
00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:23.080
they don't feel comfortable sharing that information because what are
228
00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:27.399
the consequences, What are the implications of that? And even
229
00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:37.039
when the company or the organization might acknowledge or say
230
00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:43.159
that there's fairness or justice, when it comes down to it,
231
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.840
there are ways that they do get sidelined, that they
232
00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:49.840
do get thrown under the bus. That they do that
233
00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:55.840
it isn't fair, and so the reality and what's written
234
00:15:55.879 --> 00:16:01.240
on paper don't seem to often match up. That's what
235
00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:02.440
we've found.
236
00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:08.080
So I and that's like our job, right, isn't it.
237
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:10.360
I mean I was just thinking about what you say, Lisa.
238
00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:14.080
I mean often we're engaged because decision makers don't have
239
00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:17.240
a clear line of say exactly and what we bring
240
00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:19.000
to this. And I know that one of the things
241
00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:22.639
that you bring to it is that people trust you. Yes,
242
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:24.600
they open up to you, and they talk about their
243
00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:27.480
experiences because they may not feel safe doing it through
244
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:31.519
more formal channels. Yes, So one of the things we
245
00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:33.960
do is we then bring to the client this is
246
00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:37.120
the picture, you know, and their response might be okay,
247
00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:41.960
so what now what? And it's like, here's the really
248
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.840
good things that are really promoting health and well being
249
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:50.519
and also your compliance with legal requirements. But here are
250
00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:54.320
the hazards as well, and here are the potential risks
251
00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:57.279
to your organization, which can include not just health and
252
00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:01.080
well being risks, but you know, reputational risks as well,
253
00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:04.279
because in the speak up culture, if they're not reporting it,
254
00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:08.599
they might report it externally, they might report it to
255
00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:10.720
work safe and other regulatory authorities.
256
00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:13.599
Yeah, that's a great point. That's a great point, and
257
00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:16.519
I think a lot of organizations might not actually think
258
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:16.960
about that.
259
00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:23.400
Yeah, well it's yeah, it's funny because you know, you
260
00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:25.240
could think about the work that we do as being
261
00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:30.319
focused on risk and is that is that the best
262
00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:33.440
way you know to sort of get people's attention. And
263
00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:37.440
there's there's an argument to that because if you think
264
00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:40.160
what is what is going to motivate people, what's going
265
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:43.960
to keep them awake at night? And for decision makers,
266
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.279
they're even board members, it often is those things risk.
267
00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:51.400
But then you've got to help them, you know, develop
268
00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:55.920
a pathway through that as well, so that they're not
269
00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.400
just feeling panicky without understanding, well, what's the next step here?
270
00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:04.200
Yes, absolutely, And I want to talk a little bit
271
00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.880
more towards the end of this conversation about some of
272
00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:13.279
those practical ways of what companies and individuals can do,
273
00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:16.200
you know, going forward or in the short term, medium term,
274
00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:19.359
and long term. But if we come back to some
275
00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:23.240
of the things that we've noticed, and we've just about
276
00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:26.279
the speak up culture or the mental health stigma, what
277
00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:28.599
are some of the other things that have really surprised you.
278
00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:36.039
Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know about you. But surprise.
279
00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:39.400
I don't know if surprises the word yes, because I
280
00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:42.640
think you've seen quite a lot in our time and
281
00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:45.279
what happens in organizations. I don't know that much surprises.
282
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:51.680
What I find interesting though, yes, Okay, So you know
283
00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:56.400
the whole psycho Soco social hazards piece which came in
284
00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:01.680
to affect in Victoria in December, is that what surprises
285
00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:03.920
me is that all those little the elements that make
286
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:07.200
up psychosocial hazards are still seen as being separate from
287
00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:11.720
each other. So the way I've seen organizations tackle them is, Okay,
288
00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:15.440
we have an identified hazard in this particular area lack
289
00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:19.400
of support. We have an identified area in change or
290
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:24.079
workplace justice. But often, and it's because of the nature
291
00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:29.480
of systems, they're all interconnected. So you know, we've worked
292
00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:33.759
in organizations where the change isn't done well and when
293
00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:36.000
you ask people what's it like, and they say, well,
294
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:40.119
it feels like it's done to me, not with me.
295
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:44.079
I don't feel I have a voice. And if you
296
00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:47.759
have that, and also with the organizations noticing that perceptions
297
00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:51.920
of workplace justice, you know, which is the idea that
298
00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:55.799
decisions that are made that impact people are done consistently
299
00:19:55.799 --> 00:20:00.519
and fairly, and if that's not rating very well, and
300
00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:04.480
if people are saying this poor management support, and on
301
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:08.799
top of that, they're saying there's reports of bullying and harassments.
302
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.640
Whether it's technically bullying or not, it doesn't matter. It's
303
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.119
clear that people are traveling second class and they're having
304
00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:19.400
poor experiences. But all of these they're all connected. And
305
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:24.400
I think that's surprising. It's kind of like that's a
306
00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:28.839
real education piece because I see organizations treating all of
307
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:34.359
those discreetly separately when they're when they're not, because they're
308
00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:37.119
all part of a system. So that's I guess that's
309
00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:39.920
that's one thing that I see, And I guess the
310
00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:45.039
other thing that we both see is, you know, we
311
00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:51.519
see businesses, whether it's hospitals or local government, and they're growing,
312
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:56.079
and they're growing under increasing pressure, right, so having to
313
00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:58.799
do more with less, having to deal with patients that
314
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:02.440
are living longer, which is grade in one sense, but
315
00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:06.400
it means that further services are required. So they're growing,
316
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:11.759
but in terms of their systems, sorry their processes, they're
317
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:14.920
not evolving. So there's a key difference there between growing
318
00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:19.319
and evolving, you know. And it's like I was explaining
319
00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:24.319
this the other week to a client and it was like, well,
320
00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:27.079
do you remember when you first moved out of home
321
00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:29.240
and you shared a house with someone, and you lived
322
00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:30.759
in this house and you went out and you bought
323
00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:34.240
all your flat packed furniture or you just scavenged furniture.
324
00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:37.960
But then the house grows, gets more complex, more people
325
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.440
come into the house, and it's a shared house, you
326
00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:44.680
sometimes have to need to change over the furniture. And
327
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:47.160
what I was saying is that that furniture is like
328
00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:53.279
the processes. So we've both worked in organizations or consulted
329
00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:57.079
to them where the processes haven't changed, so they don't
330
00:21:57.119 --> 00:22:00.720
actually help people to do their jobs better. Is they
331
00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:07.799
actually create conflict, they create miscommunication, they reinforce silos, and
332
00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:12.599
those processes, all these processes together make a system, and
333
00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:16.000
that's where the system's not working. And we've both seen
334
00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:18.680
that in a hospital experience recently. And one of the
335
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:21.359
things I remember is that one of the senior senior
336
00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:25.160
clinicians there just even at a really practical level, and
337
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:28.000
this goes to show the lack of investment in this
338
00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:33.200
he was talking about, he's got twenty minutes to see it.
339
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:40.240
More time consuming and feel heavier because the systems that
340
00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:42.440
are supposed to streamline are not streamlining.
341
00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:46.920
So well, yeah, and look, for some reason, I don't
342
00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:48.880
know what you think about this, And for some reason too,
343
00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:53.720
when people speak up about this, it's still really really
344
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:57.039
hard to bring about change, you know, to get that investment.
345
00:22:57.400 --> 00:22:59.960
And there was even a really simple case stands in
346
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:03.279
my mind where a surgeon said, I come to work
347
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:05.599
and I have the computer, and I've got a mouse,
348
00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:08.319
a computer mouse, but the mouse only goes up and
349
00:23:08.359 --> 00:23:12.559
down and not side to side. You know, how can
350
00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:16.880
that be? And it's just the accumulation of all of
351
00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:20.839
these little things that just weighs down on people's sense
352
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:25.079
of morale. Yes, but the thing is, as you know,
353
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:31.160
they're incredibly dedicated, incredibly committed, which adds to their frustration
354
00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:33.319
because they care so much.
355
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:38.119
About what they do, of course, of course, and so
356
00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:43.039
you know, this is the reality on the ground, and
357
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:45.400
this is the reality that a lot of people don't
358
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:50.400
talk about when they're just looking at the theory. And
359
00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:55.480
because we have a greater understanding of the reality, because
360
00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:59.640
we've literally gone in and spoken to hundreds of employees
361
00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:04.519
and they've felt safe enough to speak to us. That's
362
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:09.480
a huge privilege. But going forward, why do you think
363
00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:13.480
that there's such a lack of alignment in these organizations?
364
00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:19.720
Why do you think that these systems are so segmented,
365
00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:23.359
Like why don't you think that they talk to each
366
00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:26.400
other so well? Is it a management issue? Is it
367
00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:31.079
too much leadership? Is it a lack of training? What
368
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:34.559
do you think is going on that's causing the lack
369
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:40.319
of cohesion between different in some organizations, different departments speaking
370
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:44.839
to each other, different leaders not knowing the same things
371
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:47.039
like talk to me a little bit about that.
372
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:50.799
Well, that's I mean, that's such a big question. There
373
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:53.759
are so many issues that relate to that. So when
374
00:24:53.799 --> 00:24:56.519
you look at different organizations, these are the common factors
375
00:24:56.519 --> 00:25:00.160
we often come across, and they're often there for different reasons,
376
00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:02.720
but also there are some common themes about why it
377
00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:06.480
seems to happen. So one of the healthcare organizations we
378
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:09.640
worked at that was a classic example where the growth
379
00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:16.079
has been incredibly exponential, but it hasn't actually evolved. There
380
00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:20.519
hasn't been a strategic approach so and partly that has
381
00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:28.720
been because the leadership team over the years hasn't taken
382
00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:33.119
a strategic approach. They've invested in other areas. With this
383
00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:35.240
particular one that you and I have worked on, they've
384
00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:38.079
probably been more focused on the politics and the personalities.
385
00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:49.519
One of the things that's come out too is why
386
00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:52.640
people seem to be so segregated and in their silos,
387
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:55.200
are not working together effectively, and why the systems aren't
388
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:59.240
working has to do with people being seen and heard
389
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:04.160
in organized people not feeling the recognition is there. So
390
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:07.880
when we talked about the recognition that staff need, senior
391
00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:14.000
management might think, wow, it's like it's giving a shout
392
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.400
out to people, telling people you've done a good job,
393
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:18.880
when in fact, they say, but that means nothing to
394
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:20.880
me because you don't even know what I do. What
395
00:26:20.920 --> 00:26:24.359
recognition actually would look like for me is if you
396
00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:29.079
listen to my suggestions about the processes and procedures, or
397
00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:34.400
if you changed a policy that reflects our real life experience, etc. Now,
398
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:37.400
I don't want to portray management as the villain, because
399
00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:39.640
one of the things we're also clear about is that
400
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:42.880
in this environment of doing more with less, the bandwidth
401
00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:48.640
of managers just explodes outwards. Yes, so remembering too that
402
00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:52.079
decision makers are often at the top and they relign
403
00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:55.920
people below them. So when you have people, for example,
404
00:26:55.960 --> 00:27:00.000
in mid management level whose responsibilities are suddenly blown out
405
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:05.160
incredibly and are tasked with managing upwards and managing downwards,
406
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:08.519
that's a huge responsibility. It's really really hard to do.
407
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:13.119
And unfortunately there are some for whom they feel they
408
00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:17.359
have no choice but to manage upwards more than managing downwards,
409
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:21.000
do you know what I mean? So less in touch
410
00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:24.079
with the experiences of frontline people. And that's why they
411
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:26.039
sometimes say when in the front line, there might be
412
00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:28.759
in customer service, for example, they might have a great
413
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:31.920
idea and they say, the information goes up, but it
414
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:36.640
either thins out or it just there's some blockage so
415
00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:39.759
that it actually doesn't go to the decision maker, or
416
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:43.880
sometimes it even kind of morphs or gets distorted, so
417
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:48.440
the solution that then comes down the communication line doesn't
418
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:51.279
really match the actual problem or the need that was
419
00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:56.039
originally communicated. And that's just I mean, that's the challenge
420
00:27:56.599 --> 00:27:59.519
in organizations of communication. It's what I call the common
421
00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:04.160
coal you know, of communication. It is so common, yes,
422
00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:07.720
And if I could just added to that this recent
423
00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:12.319
work we did with local government where managers are spending
424
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:15.480
a lot of time working from home, and that for
425
00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:17.880
them is really good. It gives them a sense of autonomy,
426
00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:21.160
they get stuff done, and you know, whenever we ask
427
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:23.599
people what makes you feel like a sense of thriving
428
00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:25.880
at work, they say, well, I've got to get stuff done,
429
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:29.920
that's one of the things. However, at the same time,
430
00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:33.799
teams are saying we don't feel we have that sense
431
00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:37.799
of and they use the word intimacy with our coordinator
432
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:41.279
and even with some of our teammates too, because people
433
00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:44.680
are all working working from home or we're hot desking.
434
00:28:45.079 --> 00:28:48.000
So while it's got its pluses, it seems to be
435
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:50.440
having this knock on effect as well in some cases
436
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:54.720
to that communication, that sense of common shared meaning and
437
00:28:56.759 --> 00:28:59.240
sometimes the sense of values too that they want to
438
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:01.519
activate within the team, but it's really hard to do
439
00:29:01.640 --> 00:29:03.359
when they're not all together as a team.
440
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:08.240
Yes, and the reality is, though, is that's not going away.
441
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:11.359
So it's about then, which we won't go over today,
442
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:15.519
but it's about with organizations also really going all right, well,
443
00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:18.920
this is the reality, So how can we work with
444
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:21.599
the reality that we've got Because these are the problems
445
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:24.680
that are coming up with this reality. So what can
446
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:29.279
we do in order to minimize the stress or the
447
00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:33.960
implications of everybody being in different places? Just adding to
448
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:36.240
that as well, I think that one of the things
449
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:40.160
that I've heard come up around that is under the
450
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:43.640
sort of I suppose justice or fairness, is that the
451
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:48.839
people that have to be on site and then have
452
00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:52.839
managers that are off site or working from home always
453
00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:56.200
available because they're sort of managing their own time in
454
00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:02.359
different ways. That causes friction and they don't want to
455
00:30:02.359 --> 00:30:05.319
speak about it because they're their managers. So then we
456
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:09.440
come back again to this lack of speak up culture,
457
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:17.319
people feeling unheard, people not feeling valued, people feeling that
458
00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:21.079
there's this hierarchy going on, and that they're coming out
459
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:23.319
some people that are say the ones that have got
460
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:25.200
to be on site are coming out at the bottom,
461
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:30.160
and so that then causes dysfunction within the workplace culture.
462
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:34.839
Would you agree to sure, yeah, I would, But I'd
463
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:37.440
say there's also we have to remember too, and you
464
00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:40.319
know this, but you do find pockets where things are
465
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:43.440
really working well. So one of the things that we
466
00:30:43.480 --> 00:30:46.599
can do is to highlight where does it work well,
467
00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:49.000
why is a particular team thriving, what are some of
468
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:52.599
the elements there that make that so positive? And how
469
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:55.559
can that be translated to other organs, to other parts
470
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:58.240
of the organization as well? And I think especially if
471
00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:01.960
you're working with really really large organizeds like a hospital,
472
00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:06.400
sometimes the solution to a problem in one area exists
473
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:09.880
in another part of the hospital where they face that challenge.
474
00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:13.680
They did that, they worked through that, and somehow they're
475
00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:16.799
able to sort of get to another level. But because
476
00:31:16.839 --> 00:31:21.119
the organizations are so large and siloed, and silo's not
477
00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:24.920
necessarily a bad thing, remember, but still when they're like that,
478
00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:28.519
they may not be aware of what other departments and
479
00:31:28.599 --> 00:31:32.119
units have actually done to overcome the same challenges. So
480
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:33.759
that can be one of the things that we really
481
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:37.079
enjoy doing, which is actually connecting people in one part
482
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:38.720
of the organization to another part.
483
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:42.319
Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree.
484
00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:46.880
Okay, so if we continue from that and actually just
485
00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:50.200
go back a tiny step and go all right, we
486
00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:57.720
mentioned briefly that in Australia the new psychosocial hazard regulations
487
00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:04.160
that have come into play, what exactly is that for.
488
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:08.200
People that don't really understand and away from just the jargon,
489
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:11.759
But what does it actually mean and what it is?
490
00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:16.039
What is the responsibility of organizations?
491
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:21.359
Sure, okay, so it's a really good question. It's it's
492
00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:24.039
only something a lot of people are thinking about talking about.
493
00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:28.519
But December of last year, under work Health and Safety legislation,
494
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:32.359
the new regulations came into affecting Victoria. So for some
495
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:35.519
reason our state was sort of slowing, it was dragging
496
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:38.039
the chain a bit about this. But what it identifies
497
00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:44.480
what they call psychosocial hazards. Now, these aren't new because
498
00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:49.440
since the legislation was enacted, employees have always had a
499
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:53.039
duty to provide a safe place of work within that
500
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:56.920
within you know, reason and what is practicable. But that
501
00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:01.960
has always encompassed the physical aspects of work and as
502
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:05.680
well as the psychological aspects of work. And I think
503
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:08.680
while there's been a lot of great guidance notes in
504
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:12.200
the past about what those physical aspects might be, such
505
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:17.200
as working with hazardous chemicals, physical working conditions, and lifting,
506
00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:20.160
et cetera, there's not been a lot of guidance around
507
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:26.240
what is the psychological even though the research has always
508
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:30.119
been there. So for the first time ever, they started
509
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:33.000
work safe as started to provide some really good guidance notes,
510
00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:36.680
but also not just Victorian WorkSafe but South Australia Queensland
511
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:41.319
have some excellent materials on this and talks about psychological
512
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:46.640
aspects that are potentially hazardous to people's well being. And
513
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:50.960
you know that includes things like workload, it includes role clarity,
514
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:54.079
it includes workplace relationships and includes support work and how
515
00:33:54.200 --> 00:34:01.359
change is managed. And the regulations requires employers to do
516
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:04.720
a hazard assessment and in doing that hazard assessment, to
517
00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:09.119
consult with their workers, to create a hazard map of
518
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:12.800
those areas that are potentially hazardous, and to recommend put
519
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:17.599
in place and recommendations to address those hazards. So that's
520
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:22.639
basically what it is why it's all come about. As
521
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:24.440
I said, it's always been part of the duties. But
522
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:26.679
I think it's also been recognized too that under our
523
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:33.400
workers' compensation scheme, the costs of psychological injuries, while not
524
00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:37.039
the biggest claim that's made, it is the most expensive
525
00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:41.039
and it is rising. And there's a real concern that
526
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:46.519
if it continues, well apart from workplaces continue to be unsafe,
527
00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:49.559
there might just not be enough money to fund the
528
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:53.400
compensation scheme. And on top of that, the statistics around
529
00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:56.719
bulling in the workplace and some of those hazards has increased,
530
00:34:58.119 --> 00:35:01.599
and that's why there's been this concerned approach from the
531
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:04.079
states and territories to sort of really spell out these
532
00:35:04.199 --> 00:35:08.159
duties to employers. So what it means for an employer
533
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:12.559
is that there's lots of resources out there, but what
534
00:35:12.599 --> 00:35:14.559
they're asking them to do is to turn their minds
535
00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:18.519
and focus to understanding the culture of the workplace from
536
00:35:18.519 --> 00:35:23.639
that particular psychosocial hazard lens, and to consult with your staff,
537
00:35:24.519 --> 00:35:27.440
which doesn't necessarily mean you talk to every staff member.
538
00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:30.679
It might mean that you sort of speak with your
539
00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:37.320
your sort of health and safety committee people or your hsr's,
540
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:41.079
your health and safety reps. But that's a really important
541
00:35:41.079 --> 00:35:44.079
part and that's why, Lisa, we talk about the speak
542
00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:48.440
up culture. If you've got to ask people, it'd be
543
00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:50.599
really good in a culture that had a strong speak
544
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:53.679
up culture that you could have, you know, those conversations
545
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:57.079
so that you had a really clear view of what
546
00:35:57.159 --> 00:36:01.119
people are actually experiencing. Kind of explained what I'm saying
547
00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:03.639
about the yes, the psychosocial hazards.
548
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:06.960
That absolutely does. So if you took it one step
549
00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:10.039
further and when all right, so we've got these psychological
550
00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:15.679
hazards or psychosocial hazards. What's the difference between that and
551
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:21.679
the safety component and psychological psychos or psychological health.
552
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:27.960
Yeah, sure, okay, so that's interesting. So psychosocial hazards really,
553
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:29.719
I guess one way you could look at is it
554
00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:33.760
is about the hazards and it's the let's say, the negatives,
555
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:38.480
whereas we know that psychological health is not just the
556
00:36:38.599 --> 00:36:42.639
absence of negatives. It's both the absence of negatives and
557
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:47.559
the presence of positive drivers of workplace well being. Okay,
558
00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:50.760
And one of the interesting things about my post grad
559
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:54.599
studies is understanding what are those positive factors actually look
560
00:36:54.760 --> 00:36:57.800
like and how do we know that they are research backed?
561
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:02.000
So we can talk about that. But the other component
562
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:06.559
or other phrase often here is about psychological safety, which
563
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:10.880
is a slightly different phrase as well, which really captures
564
00:37:12.199 --> 00:37:15.280
the extent to which people feel that they can say
565
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:19.840
what they feel like, raise issues, ask questions, even if
566
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:24.800
the questions aren't properly formulated, without feeling there are any consequences.
567
00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:29.679
So psychological safety is about that of, you know, misconduct,
568
00:37:29.800 --> 00:37:34.760
for example, without feeling there'll be any blowback or any
569
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:39.440
any stigma attached to that, and that was that was something. Yeah,
570
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:42.239
it's sort of pioneered biolaty called Amy Edmondson, who was
571
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:47.400
an Harvard professor. So those are the three three things
572
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:50.199
that sometimes people sort of get muddled about.
573
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:59.719
So does the psychological safety does that come under how
574
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:05.960
does that then come under psychosocial hazards in the new regulations.
575
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:12.760
Well, one of the one of the elements of psycho
576
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:17.239
social hazards is about workplace justice. And the more I
577
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:21.079
look into this, the more I realize that it's it's
578
00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:25.960
a really sorry, it's a really important component of workplace
579
00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:31.440
cultures and health and well being. So when I talk
580
00:38:31.480 --> 00:38:36.079
about speak up culture, that's slightly different from psychological safety
581
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:40.519
and work and it relates to workplace justice because workplace
582
00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:44.719
justice is how much people have trust and confidence in
583
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:49.280
their organizations processes to do the right thing. And someone
584
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:53.559
explained it to me really well. They said, you know,
585
00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:56.760
we turn up at work because we're required to. That's
586
00:38:56.800 --> 00:39:00.199
how that's what we get paid for. But whether or
587
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:03.599
not we feel we can engage fully and speak up
588
00:39:03.639 --> 00:39:07.599
fully depends entirely on whether or not we feel that
589
00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:11.719
the organization is going to treat us fairly and consistently,
590
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:17.239
and that is workplace justice. And workplace justice covers a
591
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:21.639
few things. That's including relational justice, informational justice, procedural justice,
592
00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:25.800
and stuff like that. But fundamentally, it creates a sense
593
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:29.840
of trust and confidence. I was going to say in
594
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:32.679
the organization, but we know that people don't trust in
595
00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:37.679
things like organizations or processes. They trust in people. It
596
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:41.360
creates and fosters that trust in the key decision makers
597
00:39:41.639 --> 00:39:46.360
that have an impact on people's lives. Yeah, So if
598
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:54.320
psychosocial hazards includes workplace justice, then speaking up about issues
599
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:59.079
relates to that. It also relates to other factors, such
600
00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:02.800
as change, which is a big one. They tend to
601
00:40:02.840 --> 00:40:06.079
be related. I believe that if people feel that they
602
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:08.719
have a voice, that they're going to be heard and
603
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:15.119
have a sense of agency around change processes, that their
604
00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:19.360
feedback will be considered, which doesn't mean it's always going
605
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:22.960
to be accepted. Then it also builds trust and confidence.
606
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:26.760
And probably one of the ways that people often feel
607
00:40:26.840 --> 00:40:31.320
disaffected in organizations is going through a change processes and
608
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:36.079
feeling like the change process, especially the consultation part, is
609
00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:41.199
a bit of a sham. People quickly become disillusioned, and
610
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:43.360
if on top of that, they feel that the workplace
611
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:47.840
justice just isn't there for people, and if they're feeling
612
00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:53.880
that their managers are not available, then people are feeling
613
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:58.400
vulnerable and very sensitive to workplace conflicts. And remember too,
614
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:00.840
one of the challenging things about work place conflicts is
615
00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:03.599
that if there's not a strong speak up culture, it
616
00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:07.280
will not be raised early when it has the best
617
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:10.719
chance of being resolved. True, it'll sort of sit there
618
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:14.079
for a while. Then it becomes really hard to manage.
619
00:41:14.559 --> 00:41:17.159
And then when it's not managed well because it's just
620
00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:22.800
so advanced, people might blame people in culture for not
621
00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:25.760
doing a good job, and that just further exacerbates the
622
00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:30.920
problem of workplace justice. So you see how being able
623
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:36.079
to speak up early is really important and critical.
624
00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:42.679
Yeah, So what's in what I think would be good
625
00:41:42.679 --> 00:41:49.480
to talk about now then is we've identified what would
626
00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:54.119
be the ideal how to make how to bring that
627
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:58.400
into reality. A lot of people or a lot of
628
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:04.280
organizations are going down the route of leadership development training,
629
00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:14.440
so for leaders to become more understanding, more empathetic, and
630
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:19.440
change the way that they lead in a way that
631
00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:23.559
then allows for more of this speak up culture allows
632
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:28.760
for more of this psychological safety and then ideally psychological
633
00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:35.840
health is advanced. So I want you to talk a
634
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:41.039
little bit about what you feel about this leadership development training,
635
00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:46.519
whether you think that's a good avenue or whether you
636
00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:47.440
think that's.
637
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:50.639
Just what's the word, you know, is it the panacea
638
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:52.920
for fixing culture and creating a speak up culture and
639
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:57.400
minimizing psychosocial hazards. So there's there's there's been some research
640
00:42:57.440 --> 00:42:59.800
that's been around for quite a while now and it
641
00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:03.199
was done at Melbourne University by a guy called Peter
642
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:06.159
Cotton and Peter Hart, and they talked about leadership having
643
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:10.800
an impact, but mainly mainly the one up leader, sorry,
644
00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:12.880
not the one up leader, the person you directly report
645
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:17.840
to your supervisor that potentially has a really really key
646
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:25.519
impact on kind of buffering people from why to dysfunction
647
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:30.159
in the organization, but the effect. So they talked about
648
00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:35.199
certain traits of the supervisor, your line manager, and they
649
00:43:35.239 --> 00:43:39.840
talked about things such as being available, approachable, being empathetic,
650
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:42.880
and empathetic means that people feel listened to even if
651
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:45.239
you know the manager doesn't agree with them, but also
652
00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:48.719
being an advocate, being an advocate is also extremely important.
653
00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:51.760
So if people feel that their manager is actually trying
654
00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:53.440
to speak up for them and trying to make change
655
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:58.719
and have influence even if they're not successful, that can
656
00:43:58.840 --> 00:44:03.239
have a positive effect. There's a lot of conditions to
657
00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:08.679
this though. I mean one of the conditions is that
658
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:12.679
if the stresses of the work, such as the workload
659
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:18.199
or the behaviors of customers or whatever, is so intolerable,
660
00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:22.079
then that buffering effect from the manager won't necessarily upset that.
661
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:24.559
You have to really go to the root causes of
662
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:28.960
that and address those. The other thing, too, is that
663
00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:32.679
if people are going to be effective managers in the
664
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:34.800
way that I described, and the term they use is
665
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:41.639
supportive leadership, then they tend to be that way if
666
00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:45.519
they also experience that from their manager, and simily their
667
00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:47.880
manager will be that way if they tend to experience
668
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:50.079
that from their manager, So it tends to go all
669
00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:58.800
the way up the line. So there was a really
670
00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:02.119
interesting research they did was they worked with VIC Police,
671
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:07.880
with police officers who were returning from work, returning to
672
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:11.639
work rather after experiencing some catastrophic injury and in some
673
00:45:11.719 --> 00:45:16.320
cases that included being shot. And what they found was
674
00:45:16.360 --> 00:45:22.079
that the transition to return return to work was more
675
00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:25.280
affected by the qualities of supportive leadership of their direct
676
00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:30.840
manager than the actual severity of the injury itself. So
677
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:36.000
that's been really important. But here's the thing. I mean, yes,
678
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:39.559
leadership is important, but there's also a lot of academics
679
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:43.559
now who emphasize that it's important not to just think
680
00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:45.679
about the experience of the leaders and what they can
681
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:48.360
do better, but also the experience of people who are
682
00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:52.360
being led as well, and maybe the balance needs to
683
00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:55.320
shift there. And there's a great article. I forget who
684
00:45:55.360 --> 00:46:00.440
the academic is, but he wrote this piece called zombie Leadership,
685
00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:02.760
which sort of implies that some of us are just
686
00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:07.119
blindly following this idea that leadership is the solution, whereas
687
00:46:07.119 --> 00:46:10.320
there are other things that are also incredibly important to
688
00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:13.719
mental health and well being, and that includes things like
689
00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:20.199
work design. So work design is about how much of
690
00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:22.679
yourself do you bring your work, how stimulating is the work,
691
00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:25.800
do you have the opportunity to learn? Do you even
692
00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:28.599
have a development plan? And the other things that I've
693
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:32.119
talked about are autonomy and agency, and so autonomy is
694
00:46:32.199 --> 00:46:35.800
like having some freedom about the way you can make
695
00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:41.679
decisions an agency is having influence over the outcomes of processes,
696
00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:45.079
and that's where it comes into change because people say
697
00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:49.639
that they don't have enough agency. And then there's the
698
00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:54.639
relationships as well, which is not just how harmonious people
699
00:46:54.679 --> 00:46:57.159
are in teams, but the extent to which if there
700
00:46:57.159 --> 00:47:01.320
are issues and conflicts they can surface them and if
701
00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:04.840
they can resolve them and to some extent a good manager.
702
00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:07.159
Coming back to the leadership piece, a good manager is
703
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:09.639
someone who can see that it's harder to do right.
704
00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:14.079
And I think the other one too is you know, tolerable.
705
00:47:14.840 --> 00:47:17.920
The amount of work is sort of tolerable and not
706
00:47:18.039 --> 00:47:22.719
a strain. So look, those are the ideals, and in
707
00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:25.920
the research, these are regarded as as the gold standard
708
00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:29.000
of health and well being in workplaces. It comes under
709
00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:33.000
the smart acronym, so you know, the skills, the mastery,
710
00:47:33.079 --> 00:47:36.960
the agency autonomy, et cetera, et cetera. So while that's
711
00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:41.159
been a big part of the research as a key thing,
712
00:47:41.719 --> 00:47:44.599
it's not often something that is seriously considered I found
713
00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:50.000
in organizations. So yeah, leadership is definitely important, Lisa, at
714
00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:56.760
that frontline level, definitely, is it being overemphasized. I think
715
00:47:56.760 --> 00:47:59.039
that's a really good question to have, and maybe we
716
00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:00.239
can do another podcast on that.
717
00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:04.559
Yes, there's so many different ways that we can go,
718
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:07.639
and I think that we'll probably end up doing a
719
00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:11.679
series on a number of these topics because they all
720
00:48:11.800 --> 00:48:15.119
are quite involved, and especially even looking at what you
721
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:18.280
just said, the workplace design, that's kind of a whole
722
00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:21.159
episode on its own. But if I do pick up
723
00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:27.159
something I said earlier in addition to kind of teetering
724
00:48:27.159 --> 00:48:31.800
on the workplace design, not quite design, but is role clarity?
725
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:35.360
So we talk about, like I just asked you whether
726
00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:40.119
you think the gold standard solution is leadership development training,
727
00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:44.159
which is what a lot of organizations seem to be implementing.
728
00:48:44.440 --> 00:48:44.679
Yep.
729
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:53.000
But is it in a way as simple as maybe
730
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:59.360
looking at how well people understand their role? Do they
731
00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:03.119
have clarity? Because I know from a lot of the
732
00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:09.400
interviews that I've done with employees at varying organizations, So
733
00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:14.920
maybe the hospitals, maybe counsels, maybe corporate, maybe community, but
734
00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:21.119
people are not always sure of their roles, and their
735
00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:24.960
managers are also not sure of their roles, and their
736
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:28.679
co workers are not sure of the other person's role.
737
00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:32.159
So yes, when someone gets employed, they often get a
738
00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:37.079
position description, but that evolves and changes, and it doesn't
739
00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:41.119
seem to be updated, and the team that is collaborating,
740
00:49:41.679 --> 00:49:45.039
whether the co worker or the managers, don't seem to
741
00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:49.320
know respond to each other's responsibilities, and it does seem
742
00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:58.840
to cause some dysfunction, some lack of I suppose wellbeing
743
00:49:59.559 --> 00:50:01.960
amongst the team.
744
00:50:02.280 --> 00:50:04.760
Yeah, you're right, I mean, you're spot on. I mean
745
00:50:04.920 --> 00:50:09.960
it is a huge source of conflict and conflict. And
746
00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:11.760
I it doesn't mean it has to be like kind
747
00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:15.599
of like you know, hot conflict, overt conflict, but that's
748
00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:21.440
a huge source of tension and strain for people. We've
749
00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:24.440
worked in projects together where we've asked people, you know,
750
00:50:24.519 --> 00:50:27.159
are you on the same page as your supervisor in
751
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:30.960
terms of your roles, your role and your priorities and responsibilities.
752
00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:34.039
Surprised how many people say no. Some people say no,
753
00:50:34.119 --> 00:50:40.039
not at all. But that is that's why role clarity
754
00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:43.719
and the absence of role conflict is an important psychosocial
755
00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:47.440
hazard to review. But within teams, you can have some
756
00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:49.760
people who are on the same page as their manager
757
00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:52.079
and others who are not. And as you said, some
758
00:50:52.119 --> 00:50:55.119
people are not on the same page with one another,
759
00:50:55.960 --> 00:50:59.000
and in the nature of workplaces nowadays where people feel,
760
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:03.199
you know, sometimes when there's a huge project or a
761
00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:06.840
deadline on everyone just has to you know, it's like
762
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:10.360
all hands to the pump and people everyone's doing something
763
00:51:10.360 --> 00:51:13.719
that's outside of their official role description. But then that
764
00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:17.000
role starts to shift. And then on top of that
765
00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:21.239
when you get different teams who work together on projects,
766
00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:23.760
so within the teams, you might not have people who
767
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:26.960
are clear on their roles. Between the teams, you might
768
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:30.960
not have clarity responsibilities, you don't have any clear boundaries.
769
00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:34.320
And on top of that, they're all working to limited budgets,
770
00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:36.760
so they're trying to push as much responsibility onto the
771
00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:38.760
other team so they don't have to do it and
772
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:43.280
strain their people. You can imagine how that plays out
773
00:51:43.519 --> 00:51:46.719
in terms of you know, being on the same page
774
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:49.000
and feeling like you're one team.
775
00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:54.119
Yes, it almost feels impossible, and that's probably one of
776
00:51:54.159 --> 00:51:58.159
the big reasons why you often don't see it done
777
00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:03.039
very well because it's big thing. It's a big, big
778
00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:06.519
thing to manage, and that's on top of the actual
779
00:52:06.599 --> 00:52:10.639
workload that's specific to the bottom line of that organization.
780
00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:14.440
Yeah, but it's I think it's really hard to Lisa.
781
00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:16.599
When you see teams thrown together to work on their
782
00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:20.280
joint projects and you know that potentially have that mess
783
00:52:20.320 --> 00:52:23.400
messy situation I described, But it's really nice to hear
784
00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:27.840
some people and teams say that because they had that
785
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:31.239
pre existing relationship, so the project leaders of each teams
786
00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:35.519
had that relationship of trust. It kind of helped them
787
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:39.360
to sort of address these issues early. Yes, and people
788
00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:42.559
say it's it's it's just that little bit harder or
789
00:52:42.559 --> 00:52:45.280
you wouldn't think to do it until things start to
790
00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:48.280
it starts to reach that pain point and then having
791
00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:52.159
to have the conversation with someone you don't really know
792
00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:55.480
that well, it just makes just a little bit harder
793
00:52:55.519 --> 00:53:01.320
to do. Absolutely, So, yeah, the relationships definitely a factor there,
794
00:53:01.360 --> 00:53:05.079
and some people definitely see the value in cultivating relationships,
795
00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:11.039
you know, whenever they can in the workplace, absolutely, rather
796
00:53:11.079 --> 00:53:13.280
than you know, there's that attitude of just staying your
797
00:53:13.320 --> 00:53:16.920
own lane. So for some people that's a major coping
798
00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:19.800
strategy for the stresses at work. They just focus on
799
00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:22.920
the job, don't have much to do with with other teams.
800
00:53:23.559 --> 00:53:27.679
And it's not a bad coping strategy either, you know,
801
00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:31.480
it's not the ideal coping strategy, and at the same
802
00:53:31.519 --> 00:53:34.480
time it's probably one of the more practical ones that
803
00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:41.519
actually allows their well being to be okay, yep.
804
00:53:41.719 --> 00:53:48.119
Yeap, So potentially yeah, no, I'm just saying that that
805
00:53:48.119 --> 00:53:50.039
that is a good coping strategy, But like a lot
806
00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:54.000
of things, there are potential costs to it as well,
807
00:53:54.039 --> 00:53:56.519
if you don't have the relationship with with your colleagues
808
00:53:56.519 --> 00:53:57.119
and other teams.
809
00:53:57.599 --> 00:54:01.880
Yes, so, because I just want to move along just
810
00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:06.000
to find some of this up. But you know this,
811
00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:13.199
from my understanding, these new psychosocial hazard regulations aren't just
812
00:54:13.239 --> 00:54:17.039
for big organizations. They're also for anyone which has more
813
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:19.599
than two people within an organization, So they're for small
814
00:54:19.639 --> 00:54:20.719
businesses as well.
815
00:54:21.719 --> 00:54:23.679
A lot of stupa. That seems to be the case.
816
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:27.800
That's correct, They wouldn't even be aware that these things exist. Now,
817
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:32.480
with a small business, you do end up having conversations
818
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:35.960
that are a little bit more relational. Sometimes people bring
819
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:40.320
into work issues that are maybe a lot more personal.
820
00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:44.119
They might talk about their cost of living crisis, they
821
00:54:44.199 --> 00:54:46.920
might talk about a DV case, they might talk about
822
00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:50.719
lots of different things. So in that situation, how much
823
00:54:50.719 --> 00:54:57.239
of the responsibility is on the employer to be available
824
00:54:57.599 --> 00:55:01.639
for sort of having these converse stations when they're not
825
00:55:01.719 --> 00:55:03.119
as plain counselor.
826
00:55:04.199 --> 00:55:07.159
Yeah, I know, and that the thought of that, and
827
00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:09.000
the fact that you might have to be a counselor
828
00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:13.440
and be responsible for someone's mental health is quite challenging
829
00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:17.280
and daunting, especially for small businesses. But look, the law
830
00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:21.079
only requires you to manage situations or psychological injuries that
831
00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:25.480
are caused by work or made worse by work. So
832
00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:29.360
I guess the first question is if it's If it's
833
00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:32.719
unrelated to work, then it's not your responsibility. But if,
834
00:55:32.719 --> 00:55:37.079
for example, you do suffer from let's say PTSD and
835
00:55:37.159 --> 00:55:40.199
you come to work, then it's then you are required
836
00:55:40.199 --> 00:55:43.239
to have the conversation. If the person's prepared to discuss
837
00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:47.480
this is work possibly making that works. And if that's
838
00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:50.639
the case, you have to make reasonable adjustments, and that
839
00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:53.440
might mean you have to be more flexible in planning
840
00:55:53.480 --> 00:55:57.559
projects with deadlines and things like that. But if it's
841
00:55:57.559 --> 00:56:00.840
clearly related to work, and this is where the psychosocial
842
00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:03.800
hazards irrelevant, where you do an audit of those factors
843
00:56:03.800 --> 00:56:06.199
in the workplace that are known to contribute to poor
844
00:56:06.239 --> 00:56:11.199
mental health, those have to be addressed within reason and
845
00:56:11.280 --> 00:56:15.599
what is practicable. Okay, So you know, like if I,
846
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:19.360
if I am experiencing the cost of living pressures, et cetera,
847
00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.760
is that is that related to work? Clearly not. But
848
00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:28.599
if it's resulting in severe mental health distress for me,
849
00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:32.320
and if work deadlines and the lack of flexibility, the
850
00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:36.239
lack of autonomy an agency is making that worse for me,
851
00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:40.719
then you'd think that you could have that conversation with
852
00:56:40.760 --> 00:56:44.280
your employer and make reasonable adjustments. And that's why you
853
00:56:44.280 --> 00:56:47.159
know what we've talked about earlier. If that doesn't get
854
00:56:47.199 --> 00:56:50.360
spoken about, the employees are going to see the performance
855
00:56:50.360 --> 00:56:54.039
issues and they may go down the performance management track,
856
00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:56.480
which is going to add to the stresses of the
857
00:56:56.519 --> 00:57:02.000
employee and make the situation harder to deal with. Yep,
858
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:05.519
that's a whole So in theory, yeah, in theory, the
859
00:57:05.599 --> 00:57:08.840
delineation is clear. The three questions are for the employer,
860
00:57:09.920 --> 00:57:13.599
if a person's potentially having a psychological injury, is it
861
00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:16.199
caused by work? Is it made worse by work? Or
862
00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:22.400
is it unrelated to work? But if it's the first two,
863
00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:24.880
you'd hope that you could have the conversation around that.
864
00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:27.000
You know, you wish, you'd hope that you had that
865
00:57:27.079 --> 00:57:28.519
clear eart aside of what's going on.
866
00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:34.920
Yep. All right, So just to wind down, if someone
867
00:57:35.000 --> 00:57:41.840
has a business they've got whether they're small, medium size business,
868
00:57:42.199 --> 00:57:45.800
what's one thing that they could do immediately to try
869
00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:50.440
to make sure that they are abiding by these new regulations?
870
00:57:51.239 --> 00:57:53.360
Sure? Well, one thing they can do that isn't going
871
00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:55.960
to cost them a cent is to look at a
872
00:57:55.960 --> 00:57:58.679
lot of the free resources on work safe. So there's
873
00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:04.599
some really really good guidelines, codes of practice about what
874
00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:08.280
it means. There's also a free online survey that people
875
00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:15.239
can do as well. However, we know the value about
876
00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:18.360
having the relationship where employees can speak up about things
877
00:58:18.440 --> 00:58:22.119
and where there's no stigma attached to that. Yeah, So
878
00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:23.920
if I was running a business, I'd think about, well,
879
00:58:23.920 --> 00:58:26.159
what are the forms where people come together to talk
880
00:58:26.199 --> 00:58:30.679
about issues? Team meetings? And I'd think or reflect on
881
00:58:31.880 --> 00:58:34.639
are they forums where people actually speak up about things?
882
00:58:35.840 --> 00:58:38.880
And if not, why not? And maybe that's a consultation
883
00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:41.440
piece of discussion piece what would make the team meetings
884
00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:45.880
easier for people to speak up about because, as you know,
885
00:58:46.679 --> 00:58:48.760
the speak up culture is such a key part of
886
00:58:48.800 --> 00:58:54.639
this To facilitate everything that creates a safe workplace. But
887
00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:56.760
apart from that, I'd also be thinking about too, are
888
00:58:56.760 --> 00:59:00.360
their staff who are isolated and how would you know
889
00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:02.880
How would you know about those staff and how they
890
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:07.079
are traveling, et cetera. Again, would you require them to
891
00:59:07.079 --> 00:59:09.760
speak up, would you be able to have the conversation
892
00:59:09.920 --> 00:59:12.599
with them, do you have that relationship where you feel
893
00:59:12.599 --> 00:59:17.280
that would be trusted or maybe it's someone who someone
894
00:59:17.320 --> 00:59:20.159
else in the organization who could have those sorts of
895
00:59:20.159 --> 00:59:24.440
conversations as well, because at the end of the day,
896
00:59:25.239 --> 00:59:27.719
if decision makers don't have that clear line of sight,
897
00:59:28.679 --> 00:59:34.519
if they can't have the conversations, then they're exposed because
898
00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:37.800
they don't know until it's too late. And having been
899
00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:40.880
able to have those being able to have those conversations
900
00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:42.880
and manage the risks around that has to do with
901
00:59:42.920 --> 00:59:44.639
the culture of the organization.
902
00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:52.719
Absolutely well. I think that we could talk forever about
903
00:59:52.760 --> 00:59:54.679
all of these topics, and which is why I think
904
00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:59.079
we'll probably end up doing a series with maybe breaking
905
00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:01.000
down some of these in a different way.
906
01:00:01.880 --> 01:00:03.360
But sure, that'd be great.
907
01:00:03.800 --> 01:00:08.440
If there's anything that you could say, just within a
908
01:00:08.480 --> 01:00:13.079
minute about how doing this work, how having these conversations,
909
01:00:13.119 --> 01:00:16.800
doing this consulting work with an organization. How that's changed you?
910
01:00:17.039 --> 01:00:19.559
How has it changed the way you parent? How changed
911
01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:22.599
the way you you're a friend? Has it? What's it
912
01:00:22.639 --> 01:00:24.000
taught you about being human?
913
01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:34.679
Well? I guess it's taught me that people often yearn
914
01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:38.800
or crave to be listened to m I mean really
915
01:00:38.840 --> 01:00:42.679
listen to without someone jumping in and saying yes, but
916
01:00:43.480 --> 01:00:46.920
and then trying to give some advice. And I think
917
01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:48.840
you and I have experienced it. When we do that,
918
01:00:49.000 --> 01:00:52.800
people really do open up and that creates an incredible
919
01:00:52.840 --> 01:01:00.079
sense of responsibility. So for me personally, it's felt like
920
01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:02.639
a real privilege to do that, and also to know
921
01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:05.920
that it's something that I think you and I do
922
01:01:06.119 --> 01:01:11.280
well innately. But what comes with that is that incredible
923
01:01:11.320 --> 01:01:19.360
responsibility to present that information fairly as well. How has
924
01:01:19.400 --> 01:01:22.159
it helped me parent? I think was the other question.
925
01:01:24.119 --> 01:01:26.360
Parent, But just I was just thinking of things in
926
01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:29.280
your personal life. How is it transferred? It made a
927
01:01:29.280 --> 01:01:30.559
difference in you know.
928
01:01:31.239 --> 01:01:32.800
I think it's I think it's actually been the other
929
01:01:32.840 --> 01:01:34.800
way roundly. So I think stuff that I do in
930
01:01:34.840 --> 01:01:39.719
my personal life has actually really helped me because you know,
931
01:01:40.079 --> 01:01:43.199
having having you know, having balance being part of a
932
01:01:43.239 --> 01:01:48.280
community garden thing and singing in a choir and being
933
01:01:48.280 --> 01:01:52.360
a grandparent and various other projects I'm in outside of work.
934
01:01:53.039 --> 01:01:55.400
It just it just means that also I don't hang
935
01:01:55.440 --> 01:01:58.760
on too tight. Yes, I don't think about work. I
936
01:01:58.840 --> 01:02:01.920
tend not to think about work on weekends, which is great. Yep,
937
01:02:02.239 --> 01:02:05.159
you know, so I think that that just helps me
938
01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:08.320
just stay that's stay stay balanced. That's that's the whole
939
01:02:08.360 --> 01:02:11.920
realm of our own psychological health, which I reckon we
940
01:02:11.960 --> 01:02:13.599
could do a whole podcast.
941
01:02:13.159 --> 01:02:16.320
On that and our and the responsibility of the person,
942
01:02:16.440 --> 01:02:19.880
not just the responsibility of the employee employer.
943
01:02:21.039 --> 01:02:21.880
So correct.
944
01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:26.480
I think that we've covered a lot today, and and yeah,
945
01:02:26.559 --> 01:02:29.239
like I said, I think that we could probably break
946
01:02:29.280 --> 01:02:33.000
this up into a number of different episodes and and
947
01:02:33.039 --> 01:02:36.119
we can think about doing that. But thank you so much.
948
01:02:36.159 --> 01:02:38.719
It's always such a pleasure to talk to you. And
949
01:02:39.079 --> 01:02:41.960
you know, you're a real inspiration. You're quite a mentor
950
01:02:42.039 --> 01:02:45.639
for me. And yeah, and I think that you're a
951
01:02:45.679 --> 01:02:49.000
wealth of knowledge on this topic. So thank you for
952
01:02:49.079 --> 01:02:51.719
coming on and having this conversation with me today.
953
01:02:52.960 --> 01:02:55.039
You're too kind, Lisa, Thank you very much. It's been
954
01:02:55.079 --> 01:02:55.639
great chatting.
955
01:02:56.440 --> 01:03:02.159
Yes, so okay. For everybody that's listened today, I would
956
01:03:02.280 --> 01:03:05.800
love or we would actually love to know what is
957
01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:13.119
your biggest takeaway from today's conversation. Leave a comment let
958
01:03:13.199 --> 01:03:18.639
us know, and if you'd like more information on culture reviews,
959
01:03:19.400 --> 01:03:23.679
you can get in touch with me or Mike. You
960
01:03:23.679 --> 01:03:27.559
could visit Mike's website. What's your website link?
961
01:03:27.800 --> 01:03:32.719
Mike, yep ww dot C four m so C for
962
01:03:32.840 --> 01:03:38.239
Mary sorry, seek a cat number four Mfomryconsultants dot com
963
01:03:38.280 --> 01:03:38.719
dot AU.
964
01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:42.320
Great and I'll put all of those details in the
965
01:03:42.360 --> 01:03:47.079
show notes anyway, So if you've enjoyed this episode, please
966
01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:51.280
share it with your friends, your colleagues, even your managers,
967
01:03:52.159 --> 01:03:57.039
and consider subscribing to The Wealthy Living Conversations podcast on
968
01:03:57.199 --> 01:04:02.320
iTunes and on YouTube orreever you listen to your podcasts.
969
01:04:02.679 --> 01:04:13.480
So until next time, remember connection is medicine.