00:00:07
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills from Newstalk ZB.
00:00:12
Speaker 2: Council's Chief Operating Officer James Roberts is the Senior Responsible Officer for the whole Civic Square upgrade, which includes the redevelopment of the library and projects associated with it. He joins me now. James, good morning.
00:00:29
Speaker 3: Good morning, Nick. How are you doing?
00:00:31
Speaker 2: Great, thank you. And thank you, firstly, thank you for fronting. I mean, it's a different... a beast for you to front, so we appreciate it.
00:00:39
Speaker 3: No worries.
00:00:40
Speaker 2: How did this happen?
00:00:42
Speaker 3: Well, I think as Colin said in his report, this is a really, really large programme of work with a lot of moving parts. The website was one of the projects within it. We have a lot of project teams. We have worked with a set of delegated authorities. And in this instance, you know, the project team on the website, we got this one wrong. Ultimately, I'm accountable for that because it's part of my programme. And, you know, I accept we got it wrong and I apologise for that.
00:01:17
Speaker 2: But really, an apology, is that enough? I mean, you're sorry, but I'm sorry when I have to pay my rates.
00:01:26
Speaker 3: So am I actually, Nick, to be honest, but... Yeah, no, look, we definitely could have done a lot better on this one. We could have done something a lot more modest that probably would have achieved the same end point. You know, we were working to, I guess, a set of instructions from council that was from some years ago in regards to the overall framework for the library and for the Civic Square. You know, the team got excited, tried to do something fabulous, it didn't work out, it's cost too much money, and that's a mistake, and we apologise for that. And going forward, we need to have a look at how we delegate.
00:02:03
Speaker 2: Did you personally, James, did you personally sign off on this quote?
00:02:08
Speaker 3: Yes, what happened, there was a number of financial commitments made. There was one for $ 384, 000 that I signed off. I actually signed off because that was above the delegated authority of the team. So, you know, as I say, I'm ultimately accountable for it.
00:02:29
Speaker 2: How did it go from, hold on, just so our listeners can be fully aware of this, you signed off on $ 384, 000 for a website. Did that number even scare you? Did you actually look at that number and go, hell, that's a hell of a lot of money for a website?
00:02:46
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Again, I guess, I'm thinking in the context of the overall investment that we're making within the library and within Tanako and how important it is for us to bring that part of the city back to life. And bringing it back to life means getting people into that area, getting people into the library, getting people who are not just there to borrow books, but I guess a different audience of people into that space. And that generates a spillover benefit to surrounding businesses.
00:03:16
Speaker 2: James, can you... I tried to get a book off that website. I couldn't even find out whether it had a book. It took me to the old website.
00:03:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, not a fair point, Nick. That's because it's not actually a library website as such. It's really a visitor attraction website. So it's intended to showcase the library. Ultimately, it would have showcased the remainder of the Tanako Precinct as well. And it was intended, as I say, to kind of drive a different audience.
00:03:45
Speaker 2: Into the space.
00:03:46
Speaker 3: As opposed to people who are coming in to borrow a book. So yeah, it's not intended for that purpose, but clearly it was.
00:03:53
Speaker 2: So can you explain to me, to this website, this $ 600, 000 bill that you signed off on, can you explain to me that it's actually not a library website, it's actually a website to get the bottom end of Wakefield Street and that corner precinct all firing again?
00:04:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was basically its intent. Its core intent was to showcase Matapihi, showcase what's in there, and then ultimately showcase Tanako, and the idea being to activate that part of town. You know, the businesses around that part of town have had a tough time over the last five years with all the work that's being done in Tanako. And, you know, we really, really want to bring the place back to life and to be great, to get lots of people there. Why wouldn't you.
00:04:38
Speaker 2: Have gone to each one of those businesses, and most of them are closed, to be fair, they've closed down, but why wouldn't you have gone to them and said, we'll give you each 10 grand towards one of your rent payments or something? You know, 20 businesses, that's still only 200 grand. I mean, why couldn't you have done something else?
00:04:56
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
00:04:57
Speaker 3: And as I say, you know, on reflection, there were other options. We should have pursued those other options. We got this one wrong. And I'm really sorry about that. But I will tell you this. We did do a study of the first three months following to Matapihi being opened. And that found that about $ 2. 5 million of additional spend had gone into the precinct. And when I say the precinct, we're talking about the area Harris Street, Willow Street, Manor Street, Lower Cuba.
00:05:26
Speaker 2: Hold on, James. Hold on a second. You've went from $ 0 to $ 20 because no one was spending any money there. I mean, of course it's going to be increased. Can you answer me a question? Did you offer your resignation when this report came out?
00:05:42
Speaker 3: I can't really talk about that, Nick.
00:05:44
Speaker 2: Did you offer your resignation when this report came out? It's a yes or no.
00:05:50
Speaker 3: I can't go into those matters, Nick. I'm sorry. It's personal matters.
00:05:54
Speaker 2: Did someone ask you to resign after this report came out?
00:06:00
Speaker 3: I have a good professional relationship with the chief executive. And if the chief executive, if he still has confidence in me to carry on doing the job I'm doing, then that's great because I want to deliver for the city. But ultimately, I'm sorry, my personal circumstance.
00:06:16
Speaker 2: Ultimately, the city has to have respect and responsibility for them. It's the city people that have been left out of pocket, not the CEO.
00:06:29
Speaker 3: Sure, but we work within an organisational context and under human resource legislation, etc. And it's really a question for the chief executive to answer.
00:06:40
Speaker 2: So quickly, how did you get from 384,000, which you signed off to, to 600,000?
00:06:47
Speaker 3: Well, there was a preliminary piece of work that was done by the project team that cost about $ 125, 000. And then at the very, very end of the project, there was a change request for a further $ 55, 000. So that's how it all kind of added up to that final number.
00:07:01
Speaker 2: Is there going to be any consequences whatsoever from anybody employed at Wellington City Council over this debacle?
00:07:09
Speaker 3: Absolutely. It's a big lesson for everybody working.
00:07:13
Speaker 2: A lesson can be free. Is there going to be any consequences? Are anybody going to get demoted? Is anybody going to lose their job? Is there going to be any lawyers involved?
00:07:26
Speaker 3: Again, Nick, I'm sorry, I can't talk about employment matters. But I can tell you that we have taken this extremely seriously and there have been consequences and changes made.
00:07:37
Speaker 2: Could you tell me how many people are employed in the IT department at Wellington City Council?
00:07:46
Speaker 3: I would be guessing, I'll be honest with you, but it'll be somewhere between 70 to 90, I believe.
00:07:52
Speaker 2: And none of those 70 to 90 people, none of them could have done a website for that area before. or for the library?
00:08:03
Speaker 3: They absolutely could have done that. Our main website is on a product called Sitecore, which is quite specific, and we usually use contractors to do that type of work. But there's definitely alternate technologies that could have been used, Nick.
00:08:16
Speaker 2: We've been told so often, I mean, so often that we're not going to use outside consultants anymore. We've got everybody in place. We've got all these people on the rich list getting paid all this money, you being one of them, Why would we want consultants to do a website?
00:08:34
Speaker 3: Well, it's really dependent on the type of technologies that we use. We use a range of different technologies, so we can't have, you know, a team of 70 to 90 people, you can't have enough programmers within that team to cover all the different technologies we've got. And so consequently, we use contractors sometimes to work on some of the technology that's fairly specific in what it does.
00:08:54
Speaker 2: Who's got the maintenance contract for this website? Who's going to pay for the ongoing costs?
00:08:58
Speaker 3: So the maintenance will be done by the internal team.
00:09:01
Speaker 2: Great. I appreciate you fronting up, James. I know it's not a pleasant experience to have to answer the questions, but Wellington people have had enough. They have absolutely had enough of their council, the people that they're paying. And I'm sorry, sorry doesn't seem to work anymore, but I appreciate you fronting up.
00:09:25
Speaker 3: It's okay, Nick, and look, I am sorry that we got this one wrong. I really am.
00:09:30
Speaker 2: And I appreciate you coming on, and I now will change my score on the fronting up from 0 to 10 because James fronted up.
00:09:39
Speaker 1: For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live to Newstalk's Ed B. Wellington from 9 a.m. weekdays or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills from Newstalk ZB.
00:00:12
Speaker 2: Council's Chief Operating Officer James Roberts is the Senior Responsible Officer for the whole Civic Square upgrade, which includes the redevelopment of the library and projects associated with it. He joins me now. James, good morning.
00:00:29
Speaker 3: Good morning, Nick. How are you doing?
00:00:31
Speaker 2: Great, thank you. And thank you, firstly, thank you for fronting. I mean, it's a different... a beast for you to front, so we appreciate it.
00:00:39
Speaker 3: No worries.
00:00:40
Speaker 2: How did this happen?
00:00:42
Speaker 3: Well, I think as Colin said in his report, this is a really, really large programme of work with a lot of moving parts. The website was one of the projects within it. We have a lot of project teams. We have worked with a set of delegated authorities. And in this instance, you know, the project team on the website, we got this one wrong. Ultimately, I'm accountable for that because it's part of my programme. And, you know, I accept we got it wrong and I apologise for that.
00:01:17
Speaker 2: But really, an apology, is that enough? I mean, you're sorry, but I'm sorry when I have to pay my rates.
00:01:26
Speaker 3: So am I actually, Nick, to be honest, but... Yeah, no, look, we definitely could have done a lot better on this one. We could have done something a lot more modest that probably would have achieved the same end point. You know, we were working to, I guess, a set of instructions from council that was from some years ago in regards to the overall framework for the library and for the Civic Square. You know, the team got excited, tried to do something fabulous, it didn't work out, it's cost too much money, and that's a mistake, and we apologise for that. And going forward, we need to have a look at how we delegate.
00:02:03
Speaker 2: Did you personally, James, did you personally sign off on this quote?
00:02:08
Speaker 3: Yes, what happened, there was a number of financial commitments made. There was one for $ 384, 000 that I signed off. I actually signed off because that was above the delegated authority of the team. So, you know, as I say, I'm ultimately accountable for it.
00:02:29
Speaker 2: How did it go from, hold on, just so our listeners can be fully aware of this, you signed off on $ 384, 000 for a website. Did that number even scare you? Did you actually look at that number and go, hell, that's a hell of a lot of money for a website?
00:02:46
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Again, I guess, I'm thinking in the context of the overall investment that we're making within the library and within Tanako and how important it is for us to bring that part of the city back to life. And bringing it back to life means getting people into that area, getting people into the library, getting people who are not just there to borrow books, but I guess a different audience of people into that space. And that generates a spillover benefit to surrounding businesses.
00:03:16
Speaker 2: James, can you... I tried to get a book off that website. I couldn't even find out whether it had a book. It took me to the old website.
00:03:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, not a fair point, Nick. That's because it's not actually a library website as such. It's really a visitor attraction website. So it's intended to showcase the library. Ultimately, it would have showcased the remainder of the Tanako Precinct as well. And it was intended, as I say, to kind of drive a different audience.
00:03:45
Speaker 2: Into the space.
00:03:46
Speaker 3: As opposed to people who are coming in to borrow a book. So yeah, it's not intended for that purpose, but clearly it was.
00:03:53
Speaker 2: So can you explain to me, to this website, this $ 600, 000 bill that you signed off on, can you explain to me that it's actually not a library website, it's actually a website to get the bottom end of Wakefield Street and that corner precinct all firing again?
00:04:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was basically its intent. Its core intent was to showcase Matapihi, showcase what's in there, and then ultimately showcase Tanako, and the idea being to activate that part of town. You know, the businesses around that part of town have had a tough time over the last five years with all the work that's being done in Tanako. And, you know, we really, really want to bring the place back to life and to be great, to get lots of people there. Why wouldn't you.
00:04:38
Speaker 2: Have gone to each one of those businesses, and most of them are closed, to be fair, they've closed down, but why wouldn't you have gone to them and said, we'll give you each 10 grand towards one of your rent payments or something? You know, 20 businesses, that's still only 200 grand. I mean, why couldn't you have done something else?
00:04:56
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
00:04:57
Speaker 3: And as I say, you know, on reflection, there were other options. We should have pursued those other options. We got this one wrong. And I'm really sorry about that. But I will tell you this. We did do a study of the first three months following to Matapihi being opened. And that found that about $ 2. 5 million of additional spend had gone into the precinct. And when I say the precinct, we're talking about the area Harris Street, Willow Street, Manor Street, Lower Cuba.
00:05:26
Speaker 2: Hold on, James. Hold on a second. You've went from $ 0 to $ 20 because no one was spending any money there. I mean, of course it's going to be increased. Can you answer me a question? Did you offer your resignation when this report came out?
00:05:42
Speaker 3: I can't really talk about that, Nick.
00:05:44
Speaker 2: Did you offer your resignation when this report came out? It's a yes or no.
00:05:50
Speaker 3: I can't go into those matters, Nick. I'm sorry. It's personal matters.
00:05:54
Speaker 2: Did someone ask you to resign after this report came out?
00:06:00
Speaker 3: I have a good professional relationship with the chief executive. And if the chief executive, if he still has confidence in me to carry on doing the job I'm doing, then that's great because I want to deliver for the city. But ultimately, I'm sorry, my personal circumstance.
00:06:16
Speaker 2: Ultimately, the city has to have respect and responsibility for them. It's the city people that have been left out of pocket, not the CEO.
00:06:29
Speaker 3: Sure, but we work within an organisational context and under human resource legislation, etc. And it's really a question for the chief executive to answer.
00:06:40
Speaker 2: So quickly, how did you get from 384,000, which you signed off to, to 600,000?
00:06:47
Speaker 3: Well, there was a preliminary piece of work that was done by the project team that cost about $ 125, 000. And then at the very, very end of the project, there was a change request for a further $ 55, 000. So that's how it all kind of added up to that final number.
00:07:01
Speaker 2: Is there going to be any consequences whatsoever from anybody employed at Wellington City Council over this debacle?
00:07:09
Speaker 3: Absolutely. It's a big lesson for everybody working.
00:07:13
Speaker 2: A lesson can be free. Is there going to be any consequences? Are anybody going to get demoted? Is anybody going to lose their job? Is there going to be any lawyers involved?
00:07:26
Speaker 3: Again, Nick, I'm sorry, I can't talk about employment matters. But I can tell you that we have taken this extremely seriously and there have been consequences and changes made.
00:07:37
Speaker 2: Could you tell me how many people are employed in the IT department at Wellington City Council?
00:07:46
Speaker 3: I would be guessing, I'll be honest with you, but it'll be somewhere between 70 to 90, I believe.
00:07:52
Speaker 2: And none of those 70 to 90 people, none of them could have done a website for that area before. or for the library?
00:08:03
Speaker 3: They absolutely could have done that. Our main website is on a product called Sitecore, which is quite specific, and we usually use contractors to do that type of work. But there's definitely alternate technologies that could have been used, Nick.
00:08:16
Speaker 2: We've been told so often, I mean, so often that we're not going to use outside consultants anymore. We've got everybody in place. We've got all these people on the rich list getting paid all this money, you being one of them, Why would we want consultants to do a website?
00:08:34
Speaker 3: Well, it's really dependent on the type of technologies that we use. We use a range of different technologies, so we can't have, you know, a team of 70 to 90 people, you can't have enough programmers within that team to cover all the different technologies we've got. And so consequently, we use contractors sometimes to work on some of the technology that's fairly specific in what it does.
00:08:54
Speaker 2: Who's got the maintenance contract for this website? Who's going to pay for the ongoing costs?
00:08:58
Speaker 3: So the maintenance will be done by the internal team.
00:09:01
Speaker 2: Great. I appreciate you fronting up, James. I know it's not a pleasant experience to have to answer the questions, but Wellington people have had enough. They have absolutely had enough of their council, the people that they're paying. And I'm sorry, sorry doesn't seem to work anymore, but I appreciate you fronting up.
00:09:25
Speaker 3: It's okay, Nick, and look, I am sorry that we got this one wrong. I really am.
00:09:30
Speaker 2: And I appreciate you coming on, and I now will change my score on the fronting up from 0 to 10 because James fronted up.
00:09:39
Speaker 1: For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live to Newstalk's Ed B. Wellington from 9 a.m. weekdays or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
