WEBVTT
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Welcome to We Carry This, a podcast about the realities of life in and around law enforcement.
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I'm your host, Dr.
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Medina Bongard.
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I'm an agency-embedded police psychologist, wife to a retired cop, and just like you, a human being.
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Each episode you'll hear from voices within the law enforcement community.
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No script, no fluff.
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Whether you're wearing the badge, love someone who does, or support those who serve, we're here to connect and carry the weight together.
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Thanks for joining me.
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Let's get the conversation started.
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Hi, thanks for joining me.
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Today I am talking with Cindy Doyle, who some of you may know from Code 4 Couples, her company and the podcast.
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She is also a licensed therapist, a law enforcement wife, and author of the book Hold the Line, which I can definitively say is something that I wish I had as a resource early on in my relationship with my husband.
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I think that would have saved both of us some grief.
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And it's something that I share with a lot of the law enforcement couples that I work with too.
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So thank you.
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Thank you for being here.
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Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
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I I'm, you know, this is, I feel like it's reciprocal, right?
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You came on my podcast and talked all about retirement.
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And so I was like, when I heard you had a podcast, I was like, hey, how can I help?
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Yeah.
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So perfect.
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Um can you let our listeners know a little bit more about your background and experience as a licensed therapist and then also as a law enforcement wife?
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Sure.
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Uh so I currently have a group private practice in Denton, Texas, which is uh north of Dallas Fort Worth.
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Um, I've been in practice, uh private practice since 2008.
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Before that, I was working in nonprofit.
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Uh I have done kind of a gamut.
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I did some career layoff counseling, helping people to do that.
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I did uh low income and worked with grant programs.
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Uh ultimately, what I found myself doing was going to what I feel feel is my heart, which is working with relationships and working with trauma.
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I mean, I think all of us wind up working with trauma in some sense of the word.
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Um, and it wasn't until I started really struggling, which I can share more about that if you want, that uh in my own relationship that I realized like maybe there's something here that I don't understand.
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Um, and so that's when I was already working with first responders a lot.
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They just found me because I was in that world.
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Uh and then that's kind of where I birthed my birth code for couples in 2017, I think was my first podcast, uh, which was that launched partially because of me wanting to share information and wanting to help, but it was also because of the Dallas shooting in 2016.
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I felt like I need to step up more, I need to do more.
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So started the podcast, uh, definitely limped along for a long time.
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Uh, and this year I'm taking a break from the podcast and recording.
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Uh 2020, I wrote the book because there was nothing else to do.
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That's total sarcasm.
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Yes.
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Um, and it was mostly because my friends shamed me into it and I was like, fine, I'll write a book.
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Um, and so it was released in 21.
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And now currently I do a lot of national speaking.
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I have a curriculum that I've written uh based upon the book and really enjoy training others in that curriculum.
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So the information gets out to uh officers and spouses in their areas and their communities as opposed to me having to do all the work.
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Sounds good.
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It's kind of a nutshell, I guess.
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Yeah, I love it.
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And when, so like when along your journey, um, because I know we we layer each other in different ways, um, kind of our personal and professional stuff.
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So when did you actually meet your husband?
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Was he already a cop?
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Was he doing something else?
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And like how did that all evolve?
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Because I feel uh like you mentioned earlier, I uh being married to a cop taught me a lot that I didn't know.
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So so my husband's name's Bobby, and um he he now allows me to say that, but before when he was working, he would he was like, Don't say my name, um, which I understand.
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So we met in, I got my license in like February, I think is when it finally came in the mail of '98.
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And I met him in September or August of '98.
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Uh, he was unemployed.
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This is kind of a joke, unemployment and unemployed in living in his mother's basement.
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True story.
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Um, which he does allow me to tell.
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I'm not telling on him, but he had been in the restaurant industry as his first career.
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And he was in fine dining and managed fine dining restaurants.
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He had worked in the kitchens in the past.
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Um, he was teaching karate how to black black belt and karate and did that, uh, hurt his ankle.
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And it just kind of gave him pause to say, like, oh, what do I want to do?
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So, me being super helpful as a counselor said, Well, what have you always wanted to do?
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And he's like, Well, I think I want to, I'd love to go be a police officer because quote unquote, I would like to help people and protect others.
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Now, fast forward several years, probably five or six years in.
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Can I swear?
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Is it okay if I swear?
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Absolutely.
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Okay, good.
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I don't like drop F-bombs a whole lot, but um, but he's like, he's like, Yeah, that was bullshit.
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I wanted to run around with guns.
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Um, because he he knows a lot about guns.
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Um, so anyway, I just thought it was funny.
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Yeah.
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Uh, but we started dating, and on that dating journey, uh, he went to the police academy and you know, I was like, it'll be great.
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We got married.
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Uh, he was interviewing, we got married, we get off the plane, and his mom's like, I think the city really wants to hire you because they've talked to everybody that you know.
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Um, my thought was as long as he's not working in Dallas or Fort Worth, it will be totally safe.
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Yes.
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Not that's how naive I was.
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I just did not even know.
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I was a pink bubble girl.
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Like, how honored was I to be in a pink bubble for 31 years of my life and not really, I knew bad things happened, but at the same time, not like what?
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In that nice little neighborhood over there?
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What?
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So yeah, so we got married in 2000.
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He started working in May, he started working in law enforcement in June.
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Okay.
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Um, and so I have been with him through his career the whole entire thing.
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He retired in March, late March of 21, I think.
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Um, so I've been with him through the whole career, and we have had some ups and downs and and uh yeah, I'll let you take it and stop talking.
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Yeah, lots of growing pains, I'm sure.
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Yes, yes.
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Um, was there a particular like moment or or situation where where you were like, huh, there's something unique happening here uh that's different for law enforcement relationships.
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Yeah, I think what I think it's a slow slide is what I call it, right?
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It's not like all of a sudden they come home and they're like, Where'd you go?
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Right.
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It's a slow slide.
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Yeah.
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I think what I talk about a lot of times is that spouses and families get conditioned by what comes home.
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We see something come home, we see their agitation, we see the like sitting in the lazy boy.
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We we see the the heightened sense of arousal every now and then.
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Um, we see we feel like we're walking on eggshells and we just adjust.
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Um, and so it it took a while for me to kind of it for me, it was just kind of like I'm tired of adjusting.
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I I'm tired.
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This is not me just continuing adapting to you, yeah.
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Um, or adapting to your career over and over again, because that was one of my annoyances is like the department would call and he would go.
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But if I needed him, he would he would say he'd be at work and be like, I don't know what you want me to do.
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I'm in the middle of stuff.
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Yeah.
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Okay, cool, cool, cool.
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Yeah.
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Um, so my resentment got uh pretty high.
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And um part of what I just kind of noticed is that I would miss him.
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Uh initially when we started, he was doing eights, which was horrible.
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So he would work uh eight-hour shifts and we wouldn't see each other a whole lot.
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So I think I kind of just didn't know I had to learn to be by myself.
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Um but as he started working, as they switched to 12s, I saw him more.
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And it was weird because so in Texas, we do that.
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I know it's called something, I can't remember what it's called.
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Like you're on for three days, off for two, on for two, off for three, kind of a thing.
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That's shift schedule, right?
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And it was always like the third day that morning, he'd wake up and I'd be like, Holy crap, there you are.
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That's the man I married.
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And he's like, Oh my gosh, I feel more like myself.
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Yeah, so that was kind of an awareness uh for something that was happening, like what so this personality, I'm gonna call it.
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I I thought it was personality shifts, which yeah, some of that comes, but um, there was more to it.
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And uh kind of the shit hit the fan when in 2012, so 12 years into our marriage, 12, 12, 12, 13 years into our marriage, where I was, I just was like, I do not like this.
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I don't like who's coming home, I don't like walking on eggshells, I don't like dealing with uh the I call it like sense like a blister.
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Like he could pop off, um, you know, kind of promising things, never following through, not feeling like a priority, like all of this is kind of what I experienced.
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Um, as a clinician, I kept expecting, oh, trauma's gonna come home, right?
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That's kind of what I expected.
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Um, you know, he shut me out at some point in time.
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Later, I find out it's oh, it's because I was protecting you.
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I'm like, do you know what I do for a living?
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I don't need to be protected from calls.
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I hear them in my office.
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Um and so like we kind of just stopped having those great conversations.
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Um, I and he didn't bless his heart.
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I feel bad.
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Um, he didn't know anything was really wrong because I'm still having sex with him.
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We're still having fun.
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Um, because I tucked it all aside because I didn't want to burden him with it.
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Yeah.
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But it just tipped over to a point.
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It was mostly me.
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Um, and kind of my pivot point was when I was in uh I was in a therapy session with another couple.
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And I said, I said to them, Well, sometimes you have to dig a little deeper to understand what's going on in your partner's world.
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You have to see through their eyes and work to see through their eyes.
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And I said that, and in internally, I was like, oh shit.
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Like maybe there's something I don't get or understand.
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Like it's not just going to calls.
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Yeah.
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And uh, that's where this shift, what that's when I started digging into what is it that I don't know?
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Because he couldn't explain, really.
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Yeah, and I think that's so relatable.
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And one of the things that I really, really like about your book is like kind of each each section, really.
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I mean, you have the vulnerability to say, hey, here's where I was at, here's where we were at.
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And I think it's people can connect with that so well.
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Um, even the resentment thing, like I um, you know, my my husband would come home, and I'm just like, okay, he's had a long day, he's worked a lot of hours, just be understanding.
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Not a problem.
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Yep.
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You do about three to six months of that, and I'm like, uh, okay, like there's two people here, we both gotta participate, right?
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And so you get that resentment and that grouchiness.
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Um, and I think even just culturally with law enforcement, there's almost this, I don't even know if it's intentional, but this like silent expectation that the spouses and the families have to just deal with it.
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Uh yeah, uh absolutely.
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And there's no um, there's actually like not a lot of training and stuff, even for families.
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And I see it, you know, in my world too, is there's you know, people are having issues, and it's like the families have no idea like what to expect or or a lens to view it in.
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Like you said, it's not just like you know, for there was a time where I was like, he's just an asshole, he's just a big asshole now.
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Uh-huh.
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This is where we're at.
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My husband introduces when he goes places with me, he's like, Hey, I'm Bobby, I'm the asshole in the book.
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Like, that's how he introduces himself.
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So yes.
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I love that.
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I love that, but it's like just not knowing, and I think too, as as spouses, once we like hit that that wall, and I think of resentment like a dumpster fire, basically.
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Yeah.
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Once it finally comes out, it is just coming out, and the the ability to like access empathy and compassion is just not there.
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Right.
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Because we've just been taking it and taking it and dealing with it and dealing with it until we hit that limit.
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And then just everywhere.
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And I think you nailed it because it it's not I I think it's implicit, not explicit, right?
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Is what you're saying that uh families and spouses, like they're the the first responder of the officer's career is the priority.
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And it is, it's in the sense of like it's a noble profession, you know.
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But when I'm speaking, I'm like, but nobody looks at like the divorce rates of accountants or or the suicide rates of dentists, right?
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Like it's such under a microscope to be like, look at the impact.
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And so those those ideas of protection, the the education around it, I think sets us up as spouses and families to kind of say, like, oh, yeah, they're gonna be fragile, and I need to accommodate that.
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I need to do this thing so they can do this noble career, they can go and take care of the the community.
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And we serve along with them.
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I am hoping that as we go through the career, like your impact, my impact, other people's impact that you and I both know, that the impact is like, yes, you serve.
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And guess what?
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You have to be human and you have to take ownership and responsibility of how this career impacts you.
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That doesn't mean that everybody has to dance and walk on eggshells and adjust around you all the time.
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Can we do that?
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Absolutely.
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We can move around, but you have a part and responsibility too.
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Yeah, and what um I kind of want to talk a little bit more about some of the stuff that happens under the surface.
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Um, now, obviously, I understand it, but early on in like our relationship, you know, we would come home and like not be able to make a decision about anything.
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And I'm looking at him like you kick doors, you have guns, you take like you're doing all of this very dynamic, complex work, but you can't decide dinner.
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Like, I'm so confused.
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And I'm gonna throw another one out to you because I hear this one all the time avoidance of conflict.
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You go deal conflict all the time, but when it comes to go confronting somebody who's giving me a hard time, you're like, uh, uh they're just they're just assholes, leave them alone.
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No, like go fight for me, right?
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Anyway, yes.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So, what can you talk a little bit more about that?
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So, like, what what is that?
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So, so the officer, you know, super good at handling these very complex, dynamic situations, these crises, and then they come home and seemingly none of that exists.
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Yeah.
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So uh the big part for me is I I do an umbrella to say like it's conditioned behavior.
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Um, one of the phrases I like to use all the time is the training that keeps officers safe.
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Like we want them to have that training, that muscle memory training, um, actually impacts them negatively at home.
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So you're dealing with the biology, but also the psychology conditioning of the brain, right?
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So there's two aspects.
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One of them is the biology of the brain.
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The biology of the brain is the hypervigilance cycle.
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So we don't want our first responders or our law enforcement to be running around with somebody who's in fight or flight, quote unquote, because people in fight or flight are frozen or they act inappropriately or they run away, right?
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That our for our our law enforcement folks can't do that.
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They have to be able to think in crisis, go into, and so they rely on that muscle memory.
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So their brain works a little bit differently, harnessing the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala, that fight or flight response to be able to use their brain in a different way.
00:17:55.839 --> 00:18:00.720
And what I, when I'm teaching it, what I say it's it's it's a workout, right?
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:07.920
Your brain is getting a workout and it's it's like holding a muscle for 12 hours straight.
00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:10.559
And then you're like, oh my gosh, I'm exhausted.
00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:11.680
Of course you are.
00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:23.920
It's always that like if they were to come home and and it was to physically be some like a giant scar wound on them, you'd be like, holy crap, no wonder you're like this, right?
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:29.359
But because it's unseen, families are like, I mean, I go to work and come home.
00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:30.160
What's the big deal?
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.039
Why can't we just go out after an hour after you get home?
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:33.440
Yeah.
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:39.839
Um, so there's that aspect because it's hyper vigilance, and then there's hypo.
00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:46.000
So the hyper is the high, the hypo is the low, and what goes up must come down.
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.359
Um, and so the downside happens at home.
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:53.200
And this is where a lot of problems stem from.
00:18:53.359 --> 00:19:00.880
Because if officers don't know, if families don't know and understand that this is a biological process, you see it as a choice.
00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:05.599
It gets interpreted as I have no motivation or they have no motivation.
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.160
Um, they can't make decisions, they don't care.
00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:13.839
So, story gets created around that behavior that is actually biological.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:19.920
So decision-making process, the decision-making process is because my brain can't think.
00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:21.920
It is offline, it is tired.
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:23.359
I want to go take a nap.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:25.839
I don't want to be able to think about decision.
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:40.000
So if you think about trying to stay up, like I don't, I'm sure, I'm sure everybody listening has stayed up way past their bedtime, maybe stayed up 24 hours and then tried to recover from that.
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.759
You don't just be like, oh, let me sleep extra the day the next day.
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:48.960
No, it takes like three or four days to recover from that all-nighter that you pulled, right?
00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:52.160
It's this, and your and your your brain doesn't function the same.
00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:52.960
It's the same way.
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:54.079
Yeah, same thing, right?
00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:55.920
So you have the biology of it.
00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.359
And then you have the I'm gonna call psychology of it.
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:02.799
Probably, I don't know if that's totally accurate, but I'm gonna say that.
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:03.119
Yeah.
00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:12.720
Um, so the the psychology is I have been dealing with shit bags all day, going and confronting, telling people what to do.
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:17.200
And my brain has been doing that workout, and so I have the ability to do it.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:18.720
I can't undo it.
00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:21.680
Um, I am being watched by cameras.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:25.839
Uh uh, citizens are gonna complain about me, right?
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:28.720
So I have to perform, quote unquote.
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:37.279
I have to perform and be able to be on my best behavior and in this mode to be able to show up, but also be able to protect the public.
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:42.160
And so I go home and the last thing I want to do is have conflict.
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:45.759
The last thing I want to do is make decisions.
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:50.480
I just want to go home and relax and recover.
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:52.480
Um, and that's a part of it.
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:59.359
But then we also have the other part of um, you know, like sheepdog kind of training.
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:01.119
Like that's that's wiring.
00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:11.599
Uh one of the one of the aspects that I say is the other conditioning that comes with it is where where does that where does that training have to kick in?
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:14.319
In public, yeah, right?
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:16.559
In crowds, in chaos.
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:28.240
And so you go to a carnival and it's crazy, and or a foreign location or a concert, and all of that training kicks in.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:32.079
And I flat out remember telling him, God, just turn it off.
00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:35.359
Yeah, like you're not at work, turn it off.
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:37.599
And he's like, Turn what off?
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:39.440
And I'm like, What?
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:40.640
Are you kidding me?
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:42.480
You're just doing this, right?
00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:47.119
And my story was that he wanted to be like this.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:59.279
And when I found out later, like as we go along and I learned, I pointed out to him, like, we'll be on vacation, and I'll say, like, hey, do do you need a break?
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:01.759
And he'll look at me, he'll say, Why?
00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.920
I'm like, because your head is on a swivel and you're not really here.
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:10.319
And I think you're focusing on, I think you're overstimulated by everything going on around you.
00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:11.920
Do you want to go get a coffee?
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:16.160
And he's like, actually, yes, I do want to go.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:17.599
He has no awareness.
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:22.880
He it's his brain just slides into that little neuropathway of training, right?
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:23.920
Autopilot.
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:27.279
I've probably talked too much on that, but it hopefully that helps a little bit.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:31.839
I get really passionate about this whole entire thing because it was stuff that I didn't understand.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:32.160
Yeah.
00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:34.880
And so I was making decisions as a spouse.
00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:42.319
And his honestly, when he talks too, he'll talk about his sisters and his mom acting differently around him.
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:45.359
Um, and so it conditioned them too.
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:45.839
Yeah.
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:47.920
And and it just changes us.
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:53.039
And if we don't understand it, we create a story around it, and our stories are sometimes inaccurate.
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:53.440
Yeah.
00:22:53.519 --> 00:23:01.759
And I think the story part is so important and highlights like the role of communication because um we do, right?
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:04.480
Our brains, they tell us stories, they want things to make sense.
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:15.359
And when no communication is happening, our assumption is this is either an intentional thing that they're doing, I screwed something up, they must be mad at me.
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:28.720
Um, and one story I share, like to highlight this, is uh it's it's a funny, like nonsense story, but like I come home from work and we have one of those trash cans that has like the insert trash can, right?
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:31.519
So you take it out, pull out the trash bag, do all that.
00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:31.759
Sure.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:36.240
So I come home and the inserts there empty, no trash bag, right?
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:38.559
So I come home and I'm like, really, dude?
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:43.200
You can't put a trash bag in there and put it back in.
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:51.200
And he looks at me and he goes, That's funny because I left that out so you could see that I took out the trash.
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:55.279
Totally different, right?
00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:04.880
And it's a silly example, but it's it's that kind of stuff, and we'll we'll tend to always lean on more of that negative just because how absolutely our brains are wired.
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:08.960
Um what can I say one more thing about that real quickly?
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:09.599
Absolutely.
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:20.000
And the problem with that is that if we don't have the knowledge, either one of us, because he didn't know, he had never read like Gil Martin's emotional survival for law enforcement.
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:22.160
So he had no idea.
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:22.640
Yeah.
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:41.279
So he doesn't if we aren't educated on that, like our stories could still be our stories, but if we don't understand what's going on underneath the biology and the training and the psychology of what's happening, then we're missing pieces of the story that gets created.
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:41.599
Yeah.
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:43.039
So just want to throw that out.
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:56.559
Yeah, and those are pretty vital, important pieces too, because a lot of it is just um, even when you think like uh, you know, guys that have been on for a while getting a little salty, a little crusty, culturally, law enforcement wears that like a badge of honor.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:57.039
Yep.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:57.440
Right?
00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:59.519
Um, oh, your relationship's failing.
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:01.279
Cool, here's another patch, right?
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:02.480
Welcome to the club.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:08.720
And so it's it's even just in that context, there's no um really an expectation.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:19.920
It's almost like setting them up to fail uh by not equipping them with the knowledge, not equipping the spouses, but also just that culture kind of reinforcing some of those really unhealthy aspects of that.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:21.039
Absolutely.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:26.960
Now, when he retired, um, because I know we talked a little bit about this when I was on your podcast.
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:29.680
Um, tell me about that adjustment.
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:33.039
Uh, because I know for me it was quite the adjustment.
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:38.400
Wow, I would say, oh, there's uh there's a couple different layers here.
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:43.359
Um retirement was definitely a finish line.
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:51.920
And I remember the day the letter came from TMRS and it said, Hey, by the way, you have reached your 20.
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:53.759
You are eligible for retirement.
00:25:53.920 --> 00:26:08.480
And we hung that piece of paper on the fridge because that gave us uh that that gave us choice, you know, that we could choose or he could choose to leave at any point in time if we could do it financially.
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:09.519
Right.
00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:16.799
There's there's other factors, but there was just something really empowering about ah, I'm eligible.
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:18.480
Um, so there's that.
00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:23.359
Um he retired a little bit sooner than he thought he would.
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:23.680
Okay.
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:26.000
Uh there were some changes in the department.
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:28.799
There was a lot of changes in 2020 to 21.
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:32.079
He's just like, I, I, I've been through the ringer.
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:32.960
I need a break.
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:33.839
I can't do this.
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:37.839
He was definitely, I would say, on the burnout train for sure.
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:43.119
Um, administratively, things were, I'm just gonna say, different.
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:49.200
Um, so retirement was a little bit sooner than he thought.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:59.039
Of course, being a clinician, I may have told him, hey, you might need to figure out what you want to do.
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:01.200
Where's your purpose going to be?
00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:03.440
How are you gonna spend your days?
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:08.400
Like, I may have said that a few times for several years.
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:10.880
And as his wife, I'm sure he listened to you.
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:12.720
Absolutely.
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:18.559
So at first it was very I'll I'll talk about him first.
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:22.319
For for first, it was more like, oh my gosh, this is great.
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:30.720
Um, he when he talks about it, he says, you know, the best not night sleep I got in 21 years was the night after I retired.
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:36.720
Um, he was on call the last seven years, twenty on call 24-7, unless we were out of the country.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:40.160
Um 24-7 the last seven years.
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:44.799
And so he, I have a video of him deleting that Nextel app.
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:49.359
I have like all kinds of things of like, delete that son of a bitch.
00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:52.079
Um, they're not gonna contact you anyway.
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:55.440
So at first it was very like, oh my gosh, this is great.
00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:00.480
Um, and then it started things started sneaking in for him.
00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:05.440
Um, he started struggling a little bit more to figure out like what am I doing?
00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:07.119
I was going to work, right?
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.160
So I was financially supporting us.
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:12.960
He says that he is my arm candy now.
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:14.720
So my husband says too.
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:23.200
So um, you know, there's it was kind of like where where do I fall in all this?
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:27.279
Um, alcohol use increased for sure.
00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:30.319
It was like, well, I'm there, I'm bored, there's nothing to do.
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:32.799
Cindy's at work, I'll have a few beverages.
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:39.119
And and that became a uh a problem between the two of us.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:48.160
That I was like, I don't like to come home and you be, you know, in a condition where I can't have a conversation, I'm feeling a little bit nervous.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:54.160
Um, so that it wasn't bad, but it wasn't good.
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:55.359
I'll say that.
00:28:55.599 --> 00:29:01.119
Um, unfortunately, a year, 18 months after he retired, he had a major heart attack.
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:07.119
Uh, he had a widowmaker, he uh uh was brought back in the ambulance.
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:08.000
Oh my goodness.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:13.759
Um, he was awake the second time they put those, what do you call those little shocker things?
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:14.319
Yeah.
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:20.400
Um uh he was awake the second time he was going into another cardiac distress.
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:24.799
And the guy at the ER was like, I'm sorry, and stuff.
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:25.759
He's like, What?
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:27.039
And he stepped away.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:40.079
And when he tells it, he says, I looked at him, I realized what they were gonna do, and I put my tongue up underneath my the roof of my mouth because I have seen people bite their tongue off when he was a part of that, right?
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:45.359
It's also the last day he ever smoked because he was a two-pack a day smoker.
00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:51.519
Um, and he said it felt like a donkey kick in the front and the back.
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:54.319
He said he will like he will always remember that.
00:29:54.559 --> 00:30:09.440
But unfortunately, after that, then that brought on like a medical fragility for him, which then um really led to some struggles in regard to um I'm not bulletproof.
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:20.799
Uh that then led to rethinking things that he had risks he had taken in law enforcement and realizing he could have died.
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:25.039
Um, so it it really sent him into a spiral.
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:30.559
He was already struggling with calls that he had been on and not processed.
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:49.039
And this just escalated it to the point where um he I I basically told him, I said, you you've got to go to therapy and uh found him a good therapist who did ART, which is similar to EMDR, uh trauma therapy.
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:52.400
And he he he says this to people.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:55.119
I thought I'll go three or four sessions.
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:57.359
He said, eight months later.
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:12.559
So I I don't know how he would have been if he would have planned differently, um, if the medical aspect wouldn't have taken place and really shifted his idea of like life and death.
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.119
And um, but it was hard.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:22.000
He where he let me back up and give you my perspective too, because I thought I'll be fine.
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:23.279
I was not fine.
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:32.000
I was not fine, I was shocked um at a couple different things.
00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:45.200
One, my own identity struggle because not just because of like, oh, I am the wife of a police officer, which is a part of my identity, but also because what I do, right?
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:49.039
So I formed a whole company around supporting.
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:53.599
And then I was like, am I gonna be legitimate now that he's retired?
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:57.519
Um, and then I had me and resentment.
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:04.799
Um, and then I had this resentment, and I didn't want to be like, it's not fair that you get to stay home and I have to go to work every day.
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:11.200
But my but I wound up saying something in my head a lot, it must be nice.
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:14.960
And I know that that is not a good thing.
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:19.119
Uh and I thought, well, crap, I have to move that around.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:25.440
So I had to work on that too, and kind of realizing like, how do I want to, how is he different?
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:28.480
Who is he outside of this career?
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:44.160
And I really didn't realize that it was so integral and integrated into the way we live our life, the way we captured our free time, the way we harnessed we were talking about this a little last night.
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:44.799
It's interesting.
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:48.000
The way we harnessed our time together, right?
00:32:48.799 --> 00:33:00.079
Because I think for a lot of us, we want to we know that they could possibly not be here.
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:05.759
And so we're like, how do we make the most of our time together?
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:06.240
Yeah.
00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:16.799
And um now he was there all the time in my space, all the time, all the time, all the time.
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:18.079
Don't you have something to do?
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:23.440
Um, I think also like we have that whole hypervigilance thing, right?
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:30.799
The dopamine hits that come from the action and the activity and those kinds of things, and that wasn't there anymore.
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:33.599
Uh, so that was different for him.
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:37.519
We just had a there's like way more to navigate than you realize.
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:40.799
Um, I mean, we've landed on the other side of that.
00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:43.759
We're we still try to figure out like where are we going?
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:45.599
When am I gonna ever retire?
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:54.799
Um, but uh he he said to me one time a couple years ago, he said, people say, Well, what are you doing now?
00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:59.440
And I think they always expected him to do something law enforcement tangential.
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:06.960
So going into sales, going into something armory because yeah, that's who he was.
00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:12.239
And we worked on it, and I said, you know what you tell them?
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:15.199
You tell them I do whatever the F I want to do.
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:19.920
And and that just shuts him up.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:21.599
I do whatever the heck I want to do.
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:23.599
Yeah, and and it's glorious.
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:27.119
And right now I make incredible meals for my wife.
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:28.320
I love cooking.
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:31.119
He he has always loved cooking food and wine.
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:33.039
He's gone back to that.
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:41.039
Um, I if you want to check out his Instagram, uh B Doyle, like it's it's B Doyle503, I think.
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:42.960
Um my gosh.
00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:45.360
Uh oh my gosh, it is food porn.
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:46.960
Like you cannot imagine.
00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:49.440
I am spoiled, rotten.
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:53.360
Yeah, um, but you know, he helps me with a lot, he does help me with the laundry.
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:54.320
No, he doesn't help me.
00:34:54.400 --> 00:35:02.159
He does laundry, he you know, he does housework, he cleans, uh, he makes meals, he goes and sees his mom.
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:06.400
He, you know, does he does everything that I don't have to anymore?
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:07.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:09.039
But it it definitely was a transition.
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:10.320
Sorry for that long answer.
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:18.000
Yeah, no, that that parallels uh much of what I went through uh as well, and kind of being on the other side of it.
00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:26.159
And and he's like, I I'm very fortunate and we went through the ringer, you know, but but it's like now he loves my husband loves cooking as well.
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:32.800
Um uh full disclosure, we are taking a class next week uh to learn how to make sourdough.
00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:34.320
Oh starter.
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:36.880
I know we're on an adventure, yes.
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:48.079
So it um, you know, one of the things that that we kind of landed at is he he would say, you know, when I was working, like you took care of me, you made sure I had meals, the house was picked up, everything.
00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:53.360
So now he's kind of in this space where he's like, I'm returning that that favor.
00:35:53.679 --> 00:36:03.519
And it really, you know, it changes things because now it's like we're we're a team and we've been through the ringer on a bunch of things, and we've been through the ringer with retirement.
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:08.559
And it's I I'd be lying if I didn't say that there were days you'd mentioned the resentment.
00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:14.639
And I remember when I was on your podcast, I was like, I don't I don't really feel that these last couple of years.
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:16.800
I'm like, you know, I'm sorry.
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:21.360
Yeah, looking at retirement, I was like, oh, maybe I could retire here and then do this.
00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:23.199
And he's like, Nope, you gotta stay this much longer.
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:24.960
And I'm like, no, I don't want to.
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:29.599
And there was something else you said, and I thought, oh, did you ever experience?
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:34.320
Oh, so I'm curious if your husband experienced this too.
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:47.199
He my Bobby flat out told me one day, he said, I had no idea what you managed and maintained and kept off of me so I could just do my job.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:47.840
Yep.
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:51.440
And I'm like, Well, thank you for acknowledging it.
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:57.679
Um because yeah, he had to find new insurance one day for us.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:00.000
And he's and he's like, I'll take it.
00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:01.760
I'm like, are you sure?
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:03.760
He's like, This is horrible.
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:04.719
I'm like, uh-huh.
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:05.920
Yep, yep.
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:08.880
And so he was like, I had no idea, no idea.
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:10.159
And thank you, right?
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:11.760
Because it's a gift we give.
00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:14.239
I think families, families do that.
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:21.840
They keep a lot of that off of them so they can so they can go do what they need to do.
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:24.960
Yeah, and that's the same exact same thing.
00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:33.599
And it's funny now because I'll see his like stressful moments are being on the phone dealing with insurance or be having to make a call, you know, to do something.
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:33.920
Yeah.
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:35.519
And I just I giggle.
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:44.800
Um, and then you had mentioned the hypervigilance thing, and it's funny because it took him like his nervous system time to power down in retirement.
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:45.440
Oh, yeah.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:57.920
Um and so now because I'm still working and I'm embedded within a law enforcement agency, so I do write-alongs, like I'm I now have this hypervigilance, and I think as a spouse too, it that transfers over a little bit.
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:01.039
So now, you know, we'll go out somewhere and I'm like, Did you see that?
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:02.559
And he was like, No, what?
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:05.199
And I'm like, Oh my gosh, how did you not see that?
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:08.719
You know, and I'm like shaming him for not being hypervigilant.
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:09.760
It's a joke.
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:13.039
Mine calls me out for my my cynicism.
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:13.599
Uh-huh.
00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:24.000
He I will say something snarky or cynical, and he'll say, or maybe, and he has this like generous gratitude explanation, and I'll just look at him, I'll go, shut up.
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:25.199
Yeah, just gross.
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:25.679
Stop.
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:26.079
Yeah.
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:27.039
Stop.
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:29.440
It is so funny.
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:31.119
It's like a little role reversal.
00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:32.480
So it is so much so.
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:59.440
Um, and so what like if you could take the totality of your experience as a therapist, as a law enforcement wife, um, as an instructor, just you know, talking about relationships and and negotiating those, like what would you say is something that law enforcement uh spouses or families carry that they may not recognize they're carrying.
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:08.800
I have to think about that.
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:20.079
Um I think what it's invisible is I'm gonna go back to the not understanding how the training and the conditioning comes home.
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:35.840
I I think what we wind up doing is we wind up adjusting to the career and instead of um figuring out how do we have our life within the career.
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:58.400
So instead of instead of feeling empowered, I I think we often feel disempowered and by what's coming home or by the impact of the career or of the administration or of the or of the public opinion or um the conflict that we feel.
00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:06.400
And instead of saying, like, hey, we know this is gonna happen and this is what we're gonna choose to do instead.
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:22.159
Uh that when we get educated, I think we empower ourselves to harness or leverage our choices, where is when we don't have that, we don't feel like we have the leverage or the choice.
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:41.679
And that's probably what we carry is this idea of disempowerment or being a victim to the job when in actuality we have control of it, we just have to get educated and figure out how to work uh with it instead of against it.
00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:43.360
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
00:40:43.440 --> 00:41:00.639
And I think uh it's so, so, so true because I I feel like sometimes we as spouses can kind of victimize ourselves and get sucked into that role, like between their schedule, the demands, the on-call phone ringing, everything that we have to do and we have to kind of just take it all on.
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:00.960
Yeah.
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:07.599
Like you said, instead of there are going to be some aspects that neither of us, us or our officer, have control over.
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:17.199
Um, but like you said, you know, how can we kind of be an active participant in making this work um and staying aligned as a team, right?
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:27.920
Instead of kind of doing the finger pointing and you know, me versus you thing that I I feel like a lot of couples can gradually to that.
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:33.119
I think, well, I know we can control two things, our own behaviors and our own beliefs, right?
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:34.159
That's what we control.
00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:36.400
And so is stuff gonna happen?
00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:37.039
Absolutely.
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:40.400
We're all gonna go through the ringer, but it's how you decide.
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:42.880
It's like the our agency, right?
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:48.880
It's our it's our empowerment to say, like, yes, that happened and I can choose to do this.
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:56.400
Um, yes, my husband was kind of a snarky asshole, or my wife was being my partner, my wife was being a snarky asshole.
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:00.639
And I can say, like, wow, are you okay?
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:04.639
Because I know you love me, and that wasn't very loving, right?
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:06.480
So, can I get curious about it?
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:08.559
Like, that's a behavior I can choose.
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:08.880
Yeah.
00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:14.639
Um, or I can understand hypervigilance is gonna be that and that downside of hypervigilance, and I'm so tired.
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:18.960
And can I then say, like, you're not gonna take away this time with my family?
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:29.119
My my husband says that what bothered him the most, he really realized the people that he cared about the most got the worst part of him.
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:37.840
And that is something that I would say, okay, you know what, we're gonna get a part of you that's maybe as a first responder, we're or law enforcement, right?
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:41.039
We're gonna get a part of you that's not your 100%.
00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:50.159
But if you can give us, if you can give us your 100% at that moment, we can be understanding, but you've got you've got to want to do that too.
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:51.840
You've got to want to show up.
00:42:52.079 --> 00:43:02.000
And it might be handicapped in a way, you might be one arm behind your back, but but if you're showing up in the best way you can, I think there's a lot of grace around that.
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:02.480
Yeah.
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:05.519
And what's one thing on the officer side of the house?
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:20.000
What is one thing um that you feel would be helpful for officers to understand in terms of kind of what they're bringing home and then um, you know, the impact that that's having on the relationship?
00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:39.119
It goes back to that same kind of thing, like you deciding what kind of relationship you want to have with your kids, what kind of relationship you want to have with your partner, your family, your friends, and understanding that you're going to have a little bit of a hurdle to overcome, but you are still 100% responsible for that.
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:41.280
And yes, can family adjust?
00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:41.920
Absolutely.
00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:47.679
And you standing in their shoes, having that perspective and understanding what it's like.
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:58.719
Um, and or thinking about how do I want to show up for them and what's the best way I can show up for them now, and not letting the career say, Well, that's what happens.
00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:01.360
You know, you just you're just tired.
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:03.360
You can't, you have to go recover.
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:06.000
You get your you get your recovery time.
00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:06.880
What about your spouse?
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:07.920
What about your kids?
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:09.119
They want you.
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:13.840
So take take some ownership and agency and you decide what you want.
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:15.119
It's perfect.
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:15.679
I love that.
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:18.000
Cindy, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:19.360
I really enjoyed it for having me.
00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:24.239
Um, where can people find you and connect with you?
00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:27.440
Um, all the things are code for couples.
00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:30.800
So C O D E, the number four couples.
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:32.800
Uh, that's my website.com.
00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:37.760
That is Instagram, that is Facebook, although I'm not very active on those.
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:44.000
Um on LinkedIn, I will it's like Cindy L, I don't know, Cindy B.
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:44.480
Doyle.
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:46.480
I can send that to you if you want.
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:46.800
Okay.
00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:58.480
Um, the book's available on Amazon and all other kinds of online retails, but um I would love for you to check out my podcast and and listen and maybe share something with somebody else too.
00:44:58.719 --> 00:44:59.920
Yeah, that is fantastic.
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:09.519
And I will say through my own experience that the book, the podcast, um, you always share very authentic and very practical things.
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:20.559
Um, it's not, you know, this isn't kind of rocket science, so to speak, but the the way that you articulate it and the lens that you kind of paint so other people can navigate it, it's it's so helpful.
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:21.440
So thank you.
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:22.400
Absolutely.
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:23.760
All right, everyone, take care.
00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:25.440
We'll see you on the next one.
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:28.960
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of We Carry This.
00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:36.000
If you found this conversation helpful, share it with someone in your circle because chances are they're carrying something too.
00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:42.480
Please rate and follow this podcast for more conversations and resources that support this amazing law enforcement community.
00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:46.000
Until next time, take care and stay safe.
00:00:00.880 --> 00:00:06.959
Welcome to We Carry This, a podcast about the realities of life in and around law enforcement.
00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:08.240
I'm your host, Dr.
00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:09.599
Medina Bongard.
00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:16.640
I'm an agency-embedded police psychologist, wife to a retired cop, and just like you, a human being.
00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:20.480
Each episode you'll hear from voices within the law enforcement community.
00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:22.879
No script, no fluff.
00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:30.399
Whether you're wearing the badge, love someone who does, or support those who serve, we're here to connect and carry the weight together.
00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:31.920
Thanks for joining me.
00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:34.240
Let's get the conversation started.
00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:38.079
Hi, thanks for joining me.
00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:46.159
Today I am talking with Cindy Doyle, who some of you may know from Code 4 Couples, her company and the podcast.
00:00:46.560 --> 00:01:00.240
She is also a licensed therapist, a law enforcement wife, and author of the book Hold the Line, which I can definitively say is something that I wish I had as a resource early on in my relationship with my husband.
00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:02.560
I think that would have saved both of us some grief.
00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:08.000
And it's something that I share with a lot of the law enforcement couples that I work with too.
00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:08.799
So thank you.
00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:09.920
Thank you for being here.
00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:11.519
Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:15.599
I I'm, you know, this is, I feel like it's reciprocal, right?
00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:19.280
You came on my podcast and talked all about retirement.
00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:23.040
And so I was like, when I heard you had a podcast, I was like, hey, how can I help?
00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:23.439
Yeah.
00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:24.799
So perfect.
00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:32.719
Um can you let our listeners know a little bit more about your background and experience as a licensed therapist and then also as a law enforcement wife?
00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:33.599
Sure.
00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:44.159
Uh so I currently have a group private practice in Denton, Texas, which is uh north of Dallas Fort Worth.
00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:48.879
Um, I've been in practice, uh private practice since 2008.
00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:51.359
Before that, I was working in nonprofit.
00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:54.560
Uh I have done kind of a gamut.
00:01:54.799 --> 00:02:00.400
I did some career layoff counseling, helping people to do that.
00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:04.000
I did uh low income and worked with grant programs.
00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:14.000
Uh ultimately, what I found myself doing was going to what I feel feel is my heart, which is working with relationships and working with trauma.
00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:19.199
I mean, I think all of us wind up working with trauma in some sense of the word.
00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:32.719
Um, and it wasn't until I started really struggling, which I can share more about that if you want, that uh in my own relationship that I realized like maybe there's something here that I don't understand.
00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:37.520
Um, and so that's when I was already working with first responders a lot.
00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:40.879
They just found me because I was in that world.
00:02:41.039 --> 00:03:03.280
Uh and then that's kind of where I birthed my birth code for couples in 2017, I think was my first podcast, uh, which was that launched partially because of me wanting to share information and wanting to help, but it was also because of the Dallas shooting in 2016.
00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:06.960
I felt like I need to step up more, I need to do more.
00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:12.080
So started the podcast, uh, definitely limped along for a long time.
00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:16.000
Uh, and this year I'm taking a break from the podcast and recording.
00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:20.080
Uh 2020, I wrote the book because there was nothing else to do.
00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:22.000
That's total sarcasm.
00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:22.400
Yes.
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:29.360
Um, and it was mostly because my friends shamed me into it and I was like, fine, I'll write a book.
00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:31.919
Um, and so it was released in 21.
00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:35.199
And now currently I do a lot of national speaking.
00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:44.319
I have a curriculum that I've written uh based upon the book and really enjoy training others in that curriculum.
00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:54.080
So the information gets out to uh officers and spouses in their areas and their communities as opposed to me having to do all the work.
00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:55.039
Sounds good.
00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:57.840
It's kind of a nutshell, I guess.
00:03:58.000 --> 00:03:58.879
Yeah, I love it.
00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:08.800
And when, so like when along your journey, um, because I know we we layer each other in different ways, um, kind of our personal and professional stuff.
00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:11.039
So when did you actually meet your husband?
00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:12.639
Was he already a cop?
00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:14.319
Was he doing something else?
00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:16.319
And like how did that all evolve?
00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:22.800
Because I feel uh like you mentioned earlier, I uh being married to a cop taught me a lot that I didn't know.
00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:34.560
So so my husband's name's Bobby, and um he he now allows me to say that, but before when he was working, he would he was like, Don't say my name, um, which I understand.
00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:42.560
So we met in, I got my license in like February, I think is when it finally came in the mail of '98.
00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:47.519
And I met him in September or August of '98.
00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:49.439
Uh, he was unemployed.
00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:53.680
This is kind of a joke, unemployment and unemployed in living in his mother's basement.
00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:54.879
True story.
00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.120
Um, which he does allow me to tell.
00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:01.839
I'm not telling on him, but he had been in the restaurant industry as his first career.
00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:04.879
And he was in fine dining and managed fine dining restaurants.
00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:06.800
He had worked in the kitchens in the past.
00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:13.680
Um, he was teaching karate how to black black belt and karate and did that, uh, hurt his ankle.
00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:17.839
And it just kind of gave him pause to say, like, oh, what do I want to do?
00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:24.639
So, me being super helpful as a counselor said, Well, what have you always wanted to do?
00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:33.120
And he's like, Well, I think I want to, I'd love to go be a police officer because quote unquote, I would like to help people and protect others.
00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:36.639
Now, fast forward several years, probably five or six years in.
00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:37.360
Can I swear?
00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:38.399
Is it okay if I swear?
00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:38.800
Absolutely.
00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:39.519
Okay, good.
00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:45.360
I don't like drop F-bombs a whole lot, but um, but he's like, he's like, Yeah, that was bullshit.
00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:46.959
I wanted to run around with guns.
00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:51.199
Um, because he he knows a lot about guns.
00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:54.000
Um, so anyway, I just thought it was funny.
00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:54.319
Yeah.
00:05:54.399 --> 00:06:04.560
Uh, but we started dating, and on that dating journey, uh, he went to the police academy and you know, I was like, it'll be great.
00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:06.240
We got married.
00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:15.439
Uh, he was interviewing, we got married, we get off the plane, and his mom's like, I think the city really wants to hire you because they've talked to everybody that you know.
00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:22.399
Um, my thought was as long as he's not working in Dallas or Fort Worth, it will be totally safe.
00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:23.279
Yes.
00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:26.560
Not that's how naive I was.
00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:28.720
I just did not even know.
00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:30.720
I was a pink bubble girl.
00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:42.720
Like, how honored was I to be in a pink bubble for 31 years of my life and not really, I knew bad things happened, but at the same time, not like what?
00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:45.360
In that nice little neighborhood over there?
00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:46.000
What?
00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:50.000
So yeah, so we got married in 2000.
00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:53.920
He started working in May, he started working in law enforcement in June.
00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:54.319
Okay.
00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:59.519
Um, and so I have been with him through his career the whole entire thing.
00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:06.079
He retired in March, late March of 21, I think.
00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:16.720
Um, so I've been with him through the whole career, and we have had some ups and downs and and uh yeah, I'll let you take it and stop talking.
00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:18.879
Yeah, lots of growing pains, I'm sure.
00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:20.240
Yes, yes.
00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:34.560
Um, was there a particular like moment or or situation where where you were like, huh, there's something unique happening here uh that's different for law enforcement relationships.
00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:40.399
Yeah, I think what I think it's a slow slide is what I call it, right?
00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:44.480
It's not like all of a sudden they come home and they're like, Where'd you go?
00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:45.120
Right.
00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:46.639
It's a slow slide.
00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:46.959
Yeah.
00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:56.560
I think what I talk about a lot of times is that spouses and families get conditioned by what comes home.
00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:03.839
We see something come home, we see their agitation, we see the like sitting in the lazy boy.
00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:08.639
We we see the the heightened sense of arousal every now and then.
00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:13.199
Um, we see we feel like we're walking on eggshells and we just adjust.
00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:21.839
Um, and so it it took a while for me to kind of it for me, it was just kind of like I'm tired of adjusting.
00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:23.439
I I'm tired.
00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:27.519
This is not me just continuing adapting to you, yeah.
00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:36.559
Um, or adapting to your career over and over again, because that was one of my annoyances is like the department would call and he would go.
00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:42.000
But if I needed him, he would he would say he'd be at work and be like, I don't know what you want me to do.
00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:43.200
I'm in the middle of stuff.
00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:43.600
Yeah.
00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:45.279
Okay, cool, cool, cool.
00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:45.679
Yeah.
00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:50.240
Um, so my resentment got uh pretty high.
00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:56.559
And um part of what I just kind of noticed is that I would miss him.
00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:01.440
Uh initially when we started, he was doing eights, which was horrible.
00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:08.240
So he would work uh eight-hour shifts and we wouldn't see each other a whole lot.
00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:12.159
So I think I kind of just didn't know I had to learn to be by myself.
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:18.879
Um but as he started working, as they switched to 12s, I saw him more.
00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:22.799
And it was weird because so in Texas, we do that.
00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:25.519
I know it's called something, I can't remember what it's called.
00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:29.919
Like you're on for three days, off for two, on for two, off for three, kind of a thing.
00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:31.360
That's shift schedule, right?
00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:39.120
And it was always like the third day that morning, he'd wake up and I'd be like, Holy crap, there you are.
00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:40.799
That's the man I married.
00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:43.679
And he's like, Oh my gosh, I feel more like myself.
00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:54.960
Yeah, so that was kind of an awareness uh for something that was happening, like what so this personality, I'm gonna call it.
00:09:55.440 --> 00:10:02.960
I I thought it was personality shifts, which yeah, some of that comes, but um, there was more to it.
00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:17.519
And uh kind of the shit hit the fan when in 2012, so 12 years into our marriage, 12, 12, 12, 13 years into our marriage, where I was, I just was like, I do not like this.
00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:26.720
I don't like who's coming home, I don't like walking on eggshells, I don't like dealing with uh the I call it like sense like a blister.
00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:38.879
Like he could pop off, um, you know, kind of promising things, never following through, not feeling like a priority, like all of this is kind of what I experienced.
00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:44.159
Um, as a clinician, I kept expecting, oh, trauma's gonna come home, right?
00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:46.000
That's kind of what I expected.
00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:49.360
Um, you know, he shut me out at some point in time.
00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:53.200
Later, I find out it's oh, it's because I was protecting you.
00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:54.879
I'm like, do you know what I do for a living?
00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:57.600
I don't need to be protected from calls.
00:10:57.679 --> 00:10:59.279
I hear them in my office.
00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:04.559
Um and so like we kind of just stopped having those great conversations.
00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:07.840
Um, I and he didn't bless his heart.
00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:08.639
I feel bad.
00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:13.600
Um, he didn't know anything was really wrong because I'm still having sex with him.
00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:14.960
We're still having fun.
00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:19.279
Um, because I tucked it all aside because I didn't want to burden him with it.
00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:19.759
Yeah.
00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:21.840
But it just tipped over to a point.
00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:23.279
It was mostly me.
00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:30.320
Um, and kind of my pivot point was when I was in uh I was in a therapy session with another couple.
00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:39.360
And I said, I said to them, Well, sometimes you have to dig a little deeper to understand what's going on in your partner's world.
00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:42.480
You have to see through their eyes and work to see through their eyes.
00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:45.919
And I said that, and in internally, I was like, oh shit.
00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:48.720
Like maybe there's something I don't get or understand.
00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:50.559
Like it's not just going to calls.
00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:51.039
Yeah.
00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:56.159
And uh, that's where this shift, what that's when I started digging into what is it that I don't know?
00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:58.080
Because he couldn't explain, really.
00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:00.320
Yeah, and I think that's so relatable.
00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:08.080
And one of the things that I really, really like about your book is like kind of each each section, really.
00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:12.480
I mean, you have the vulnerability to say, hey, here's where I was at, here's where we were at.
00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:16.639
And I think it's people can connect with that so well.
00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:27.200
Um, even the resentment thing, like I um, you know, my my husband would come home, and I'm just like, okay, he's had a long day, he's worked a lot of hours, just be understanding.
00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:28.480
Not a problem.
00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:29.039
Yep.
00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:35.919
You do about three to six months of that, and I'm like, uh, okay, like there's two people here, we both gotta participate, right?
00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.639
And so you get that resentment and that grouchiness.
00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:53.039
Um, and I think even just culturally with law enforcement, there's almost this, I don't even know if it's intentional, but this like silent expectation that the spouses and the families have to just deal with it.
00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:54.799
Uh yeah, uh absolutely.
00:12:55.360 --> 00:13:00.480
And there's no um, there's actually like not a lot of training and stuff, even for families.
00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:10.399
And I see it, you know, in my world too, is there's you know, people are having issues, and it's like the families have no idea like what to expect or or a lens to view it in.
00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:16.799
Like you said, it's not just like you know, for there was a time where I was like, he's just an asshole, he's just a big asshole now.
00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:17.200
Uh-huh.
00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:18.720
This is where we're at.
00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:24.960
My husband introduces when he goes places with me, he's like, Hey, I'm Bobby, I'm the asshole in the book.
00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:27.759
Like, that's how he introduces himself.
00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:30.080
So yes.
00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:31.840
I love that.
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:42.159
I love that, but it's like just not knowing, and I think too, as as spouses, once we like hit that that wall, and I think of resentment like a dumpster fire, basically.
00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:42.639
Yeah.
00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:52.399
Once it finally comes out, it is just coming out, and the the ability to like access empathy and compassion is just not there.
00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:52.960
Right.
00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:58.159
Because we've just been taking it and taking it and dealing with it and dealing with it until we hit that limit.
00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:00.639
And then just everywhere.
00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:09.600
And I think you nailed it because it it's not I I think it's implicit, not explicit, right?
00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:18.639
Is what you're saying that uh families and spouses, like they're the the first responder of the officer's career is the priority.
00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:23.039
And it is, it's in the sense of like it's a noble profession, you know.
00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:32.799
But when I'm speaking, I'm like, but nobody looks at like the divorce rates of accountants or or the suicide rates of dentists, right?
00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:37.440
Like it's such under a microscope to be like, look at the impact.
00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:54.159
And so those those ideas of protection, the the education around it, I think sets us up as spouses and families to kind of say, like, oh, yeah, they're gonna be fragile, and I need to accommodate that.
00:14:54.480 --> 00:15:02.639
I need to do this thing so they can do this noble career, they can go and take care of the the community.
00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:05.519
And we serve along with them.
00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:18.720
I am hoping that as we go through the career, like your impact, my impact, other people's impact that you and I both know, that the impact is like, yes, you serve.
00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:19.519
And guess what?
00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:24.799
You have to be human and you have to take ownership and responsibility of how this career impacts you.
00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:30.720
That doesn't mean that everybody has to dance and walk on eggshells and adjust around you all the time.
00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:31.840
Can we do that?
00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:32.480
Absolutely.
00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:35.519
We can move around, but you have a part and responsibility too.
00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:42.639
Yeah, and what um I kind of want to talk a little bit more about some of the stuff that happens under the surface.
00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:53.200
Um, now, obviously, I understand it, but early on in like our relationship, you know, we would come home and like not be able to make a decision about anything.
00:15:53.600 --> 00:16:04.879
And I'm looking at him like you kick doors, you have guns, you take like you're doing all of this very dynamic, complex work, but you can't decide dinner.
00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:06.480
Like, I'm so confused.
00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:11.840
And I'm gonna throw another one out to you because I hear this one all the time avoidance of conflict.
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:23.200
You go deal conflict all the time, but when it comes to go confronting somebody who's giving me a hard time, you're like, uh, uh they're just they're just assholes, leave them alone.
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:25.200
No, like go fight for me, right?
00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:25.679
Anyway, yes.
00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:26.080
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:28.399
So, what can you talk a little bit more about that?
00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:29.679
So, like, what what is that?
00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:39.919
So, so the officer, you know, super good at handling these very complex, dynamic situations, these crises, and then they come home and seemingly none of that exists.
00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:40.879
Yeah.
00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:48.399
So uh the big part for me is I I do an umbrella to say like it's conditioned behavior.
00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:52.799
Um, one of the phrases I like to use all the time is the training that keeps officers safe.
00:16:53.120 --> 00:17:00.159
Like we want them to have that training, that muscle memory training, um, actually impacts them negatively at home.
00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:09.039
So you're dealing with the biology, but also the psychology conditioning of the brain, right?
00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:10.400
So there's two aspects.
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:12.559
One of them is the biology of the brain.
00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:16.559
The biology of the brain is the hypervigilance cycle.
00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:34.799
So we don't want our first responders or our law enforcement to be running around with somebody who's in fight or flight, quote unquote, because people in fight or flight are frozen or they act inappropriately or they run away, right?
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:38.000
That our for our our law enforcement folks can't do that.
00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:44.319
They have to be able to think in crisis, go into, and so they rely on that muscle memory.
00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:55.759
So their brain works a little bit differently, harnessing the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala, that fight or flight response to be able to use their brain in a different way.
00:17:55.839 --> 00:18:00.720
And what I, when I'm teaching it, what I say it's it's it's a workout, right?
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:07.920
Your brain is getting a workout and it's it's like holding a muscle for 12 hours straight.
00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:10.559
And then you're like, oh my gosh, I'm exhausted.
00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:11.680
Of course you are.
00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:23.920
It's always that like if they were to come home and and it was to physically be some like a giant scar wound on them, you'd be like, holy crap, no wonder you're like this, right?
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:29.359
But because it's unseen, families are like, I mean, I go to work and come home.
00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:30.160
What's the big deal?
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.039
Why can't we just go out after an hour after you get home?
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:33.440
Yeah.
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:39.839
Um, so there's that aspect because it's hyper vigilance, and then there's hypo.
00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:46.000
So the hyper is the high, the hypo is the low, and what goes up must come down.
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.359
Um, and so the downside happens at home.
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:53.200
And this is where a lot of problems stem from.
00:18:53.359 --> 00:19:00.880
Because if officers don't know, if families don't know and understand that this is a biological process, you see it as a choice.
00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:05.599
It gets interpreted as I have no motivation or they have no motivation.
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.160
Um, they can't make decisions, they don't care.
00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:13.839
So, story gets created around that behavior that is actually biological.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:19.920
So decision-making process, the decision-making process is because my brain can't think.
00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:21.920
It is offline, it is tired.
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:23.359
I want to go take a nap.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:25.839
I don't want to be able to think about decision.
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:40.000
So if you think about trying to stay up, like I don't, I'm sure, I'm sure everybody listening has stayed up way past their bedtime, maybe stayed up 24 hours and then tried to recover from that.
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.759
You don't just be like, oh, let me sleep extra the day the next day.
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:48.960
No, it takes like three or four days to recover from that all-nighter that you pulled, right?
00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:52.160
It's this, and your and your your brain doesn't function the same.
00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:52.960
It's the same way.
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:54.079
Yeah, same thing, right?
00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:55.920
So you have the biology of it.
00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.359
And then you have the I'm gonna call psychology of it.
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:02.799
Probably, I don't know if that's totally accurate, but I'm gonna say that.
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:03.119
Yeah.
00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:12.720
Um, so the the psychology is I have been dealing with shit bags all day, going and confronting, telling people what to do.
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:17.200
And my brain has been doing that workout, and so I have the ability to do it.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:18.720
I can't undo it.
00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:21.680
Um, I am being watched by cameras.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:25.839
Uh uh, citizens are gonna complain about me, right?
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:28.720
So I have to perform, quote unquote.
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:37.279
I have to perform and be able to be on my best behavior and in this mode to be able to show up, but also be able to protect the public.
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:42.160
And so I go home and the last thing I want to do is have conflict.
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:45.759
The last thing I want to do is make decisions.
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:50.480
I just want to go home and relax and recover.
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:52.480
Um, and that's a part of it.
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:59.359
But then we also have the other part of um, you know, like sheepdog kind of training.
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:01.119
Like that's that's wiring.
00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:11.599
Uh one of the one of the aspects that I say is the other conditioning that comes with it is where where does that where does that training have to kick in?
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:14.319
In public, yeah, right?
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:16.559
In crowds, in chaos.
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:28.240
And so you go to a carnival and it's crazy, and or a foreign location or a concert, and all of that training kicks in.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:32.079
And I flat out remember telling him, God, just turn it off.
00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:35.359
Yeah, like you're not at work, turn it off.
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:37.599
And he's like, Turn what off?
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:39.440
And I'm like, What?
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:40.640
Are you kidding me?
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:42.480
You're just doing this, right?
00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:47.119
And my story was that he wanted to be like this.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:59.279
And when I found out later, like as we go along and I learned, I pointed out to him, like, we'll be on vacation, and I'll say, like, hey, do do you need a break?
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:01.759
And he'll look at me, he'll say, Why?
00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.920
I'm like, because your head is on a swivel and you're not really here.
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:10.319
And I think you're focusing on, I think you're overstimulated by everything going on around you.
00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:11.920
Do you want to go get a coffee?
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:16.160
And he's like, actually, yes, I do want to go.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:17.599
He has no awareness.
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:22.880
He it's his brain just slides into that little neuropathway of training, right?
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:23.920
Autopilot.
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:27.279
I've probably talked too much on that, but it hopefully that helps a little bit.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:31.839
I get really passionate about this whole entire thing because it was stuff that I didn't understand.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:32.160
Yeah.
00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:34.880
And so I was making decisions as a spouse.
00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:42.319
And his honestly, when he talks too, he'll talk about his sisters and his mom acting differently around him.
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:45.359
Um, and so it conditioned them too.
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:45.839
Yeah.
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:47.920
And and it just changes us.
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:53.039
And if we don't understand it, we create a story around it, and our stories are sometimes inaccurate.
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:53.440
Yeah.
00:22:53.519 --> 00:23:01.759
And I think the story part is so important and highlights like the role of communication because um we do, right?
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:04.480
Our brains, they tell us stories, they want things to make sense.
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:15.359
And when no communication is happening, our assumption is this is either an intentional thing that they're doing, I screwed something up, they must be mad at me.
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:28.720
Um, and one story I share, like to highlight this, is uh it's it's a funny, like nonsense story, but like I come home from work and we have one of those trash cans that has like the insert trash can, right?
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:31.519
So you take it out, pull out the trash bag, do all that.
00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:31.759
Sure.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:36.240
So I come home and the inserts there empty, no trash bag, right?
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:38.559
So I come home and I'm like, really, dude?
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:43.200
You can't put a trash bag in there and put it back in.
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:51.200
And he looks at me and he goes, That's funny because I left that out so you could see that I took out the trash.
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:55.279
Totally different, right?
00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:04.880
And it's a silly example, but it's it's that kind of stuff, and we'll we'll tend to always lean on more of that negative just because how absolutely our brains are wired.
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:08.960
Um what can I say one more thing about that real quickly?
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:09.599
Absolutely.
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:20.000
And the problem with that is that if we don't have the knowledge, either one of us, because he didn't know, he had never read like Gil Martin's emotional survival for law enforcement.
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:22.160
So he had no idea.
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:22.640
Yeah.
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:41.279
So he doesn't if we aren't educated on that, like our stories could still be our stories, but if we don't understand what's going on underneath the biology and the training and the psychology of what's happening, then we're missing pieces of the story that gets created.
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:41.599
Yeah.
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:43.039
So just want to throw that out.
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:56.559
Yeah, and those are pretty vital, important pieces too, because a lot of it is just um, even when you think like uh, you know, guys that have been on for a while getting a little salty, a little crusty, culturally, law enforcement wears that like a badge of honor.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:57.039
Yep.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:57.440
Right?
00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:59.519
Um, oh, your relationship's failing.
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:01.279
Cool, here's another patch, right?
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:02.480
Welcome to the club.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:08.720
And so it's it's even just in that context, there's no um really an expectation.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:19.920
It's almost like setting them up to fail uh by not equipping them with the knowledge, not equipping the spouses, but also just that culture kind of reinforcing some of those really unhealthy aspects of that.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:21.039
Absolutely.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:26.960
Now, when he retired, um, because I know we talked a little bit about this when I was on your podcast.
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:29.680
Um, tell me about that adjustment.
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:33.039
Uh, because I know for me it was quite the adjustment.
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:38.400
Wow, I would say, oh, there's uh there's a couple different layers here.
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:43.359
Um retirement was definitely a finish line.
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:51.920
And I remember the day the letter came from TMRS and it said, Hey, by the way, you have reached your 20.
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:53.759
You are eligible for retirement.
00:25:53.920 --> 00:26:08.480
And we hung that piece of paper on the fridge because that gave us uh that that gave us choice, you know, that we could choose or he could choose to leave at any point in time if we could do it financially.
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:09.519
Right.
00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:16.799
There's there's other factors, but there was just something really empowering about ah, I'm eligible.
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:18.480
Um, so there's that.
00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:23.359
Um he retired a little bit sooner than he thought he would.
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:23.680
Okay.
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:26.000
Uh there were some changes in the department.
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:28.799
There was a lot of changes in 2020 to 21.
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:32.079
He's just like, I, I, I've been through the ringer.
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:32.960
I need a break.
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:33.839
I can't do this.
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:37.839
He was definitely, I would say, on the burnout train for sure.
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:43.119
Um, administratively, things were, I'm just gonna say, different.
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:49.200
Um, so retirement was a little bit sooner than he thought.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:59.039
Of course, being a clinician, I may have told him, hey, you might need to figure out what you want to do.
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:01.200
Where's your purpose going to be?
00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:03.440
How are you gonna spend your days?
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:08.400
Like, I may have said that a few times for several years.
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:10.880
And as his wife, I'm sure he listened to you.
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:12.720
Absolutely.
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:18.559
So at first it was very I'll I'll talk about him first.
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:22.319
For for first, it was more like, oh my gosh, this is great.
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:30.720
Um, he when he talks about it, he says, you know, the best not night sleep I got in 21 years was the night after I retired.
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:36.720
Um, he was on call the last seven years, twenty on call 24-7, unless we were out of the country.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:40.160
Um 24-7 the last seven years.
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:44.799
And so he, I have a video of him deleting that Nextel app.
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:49.359
I have like all kinds of things of like, delete that son of a bitch.
00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:52.079
Um, they're not gonna contact you anyway.
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:55.440
So at first it was very like, oh my gosh, this is great.
00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:00.480
Um, and then it started things started sneaking in for him.
00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:05.440
Um, he started struggling a little bit more to figure out like what am I doing?
00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:07.119
I was going to work, right?
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.160
So I was financially supporting us.
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:12.960
He says that he is my arm candy now.
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:14.720
So my husband says too.
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:23.200
So um, you know, there's it was kind of like where where do I fall in all this?
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:27.279
Um, alcohol use increased for sure.
00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:30.319
It was like, well, I'm there, I'm bored, there's nothing to do.
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:32.799
Cindy's at work, I'll have a few beverages.
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:39.119
And and that became a uh a problem between the two of us.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:48.160
That I was like, I don't like to come home and you be, you know, in a condition where I can't have a conversation, I'm feeling a little bit nervous.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:54.160
Um, so that it wasn't bad, but it wasn't good.
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:55.359
I'll say that.
00:28:55.599 --> 00:29:01.119
Um, unfortunately, a year, 18 months after he retired, he had a major heart attack.
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:07.119
Uh, he had a widowmaker, he uh uh was brought back in the ambulance.
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:08.000
Oh my goodness.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:13.759
Um, he was awake the second time they put those, what do you call those little shocker things?
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:14.319
Yeah.
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:20.400
Um uh he was awake the second time he was going into another cardiac distress.
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:24.799
And the guy at the ER was like, I'm sorry, and stuff.
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:25.759
He's like, What?
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:27.039
And he stepped away.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:40.079
And when he tells it, he says, I looked at him, I realized what they were gonna do, and I put my tongue up underneath my the roof of my mouth because I have seen people bite their tongue off when he was a part of that, right?
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:45.359
It's also the last day he ever smoked because he was a two-pack a day smoker.
00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:51.519
Um, and he said it felt like a donkey kick in the front and the back.
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:54.319
He said he will like he will always remember that.
00:29:54.559 --> 00:30:09.440
But unfortunately, after that, then that brought on like a medical fragility for him, which then um really led to some struggles in regard to um I'm not bulletproof.
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:20.799
Uh that then led to rethinking things that he had risks he had taken in law enforcement and realizing he could have died.
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:25.039
Um, so it it really sent him into a spiral.
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:30.559
He was already struggling with calls that he had been on and not processed.
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:49.039
And this just escalated it to the point where um he I I basically told him, I said, you you've got to go to therapy and uh found him a good therapist who did ART, which is similar to EMDR, uh trauma therapy.
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:52.400
And he he he says this to people.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:55.119
I thought I'll go three or four sessions.
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:57.359
He said, eight months later.
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:12.559
So I I don't know how he would have been if he would have planned differently, um, if the medical aspect wouldn't have taken place and really shifted his idea of like life and death.
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.119
And um, but it was hard.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:22.000
He where he let me back up and give you my perspective too, because I thought I'll be fine.
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:23.279
I was not fine.
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:32.000
I was not fine, I was shocked um at a couple different things.
00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:45.200
One, my own identity struggle because not just because of like, oh, I am the wife of a police officer, which is a part of my identity, but also because what I do, right?
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:49.039
So I formed a whole company around supporting.
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:53.599
And then I was like, am I gonna be legitimate now that he's retired?
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:57.519
Um, and then I had me and resentment.
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:04.799
Um, and then I had this resentment, and I didn't want to be like, it's not fair that you get to stay home and I have to go to work every day.
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:11.200
But my but I wound up saying something in my head a lot, it must be nice.
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:14.960
And I know that that is not a good thing.
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:19.119
Uh and I thought, well, crap, I have to move that around.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:25.440
So I had to work on that too, and kind of realizing like, how do I want to, how is he different?
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:28.480
Who is he outside of this career?
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:44.160
And I really didn't realize that it was so integral and integrated into the way we live our life, the way we captured our free time, the way we harnessed we were talking about this a little last night.
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:44.799
It's interesting.
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:48.000
The way we harnessed our time together, right?
00:32:48.799 --> 00:33:00.079
Because I think for a lot of us, we want to we know that they could possibly not be here.
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:05.759
And so we're like, how do we make the most of our time together?
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:06.240
Yeah.
00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:16.799
And um now he was there all the time in my space, all the time, all the time, all the time.
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:18.079
Don't you have something to do?
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:23.440
Um, I think also like we have that whole hypervigilance thing, right?
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:30.799
The dopamine hits that come from the action and the activity and those kinds of things, and that wasn't there anymore.
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:33.599
Uh, so that was different for him.
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:37.519
We just had a there's like way more to navigate than you realize.
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:40.799
Um, I mean, we've landed on the other side of that.
00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:43.759
We're we still try to figure out like where are we going?
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:45.599
When am I gonna ever retire?
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:54.799
Um, but uh he he said to me one time a couple years ago, he said, people say, Well, what are you doing now?
00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:59.440
And I think they always expected him to do something law enforcement tangential.
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:06.960
So going into sales, going into something armory because yeah, that's who he was.
00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:12.239
And we worked on it, and I said, you know what you tell them?
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:15.199
You tell them I do whatever the F I want to do.
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:19.920
And and that just shuts him up.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:21.599
I do whatever the heck I want to do.
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:23.599
Yeah, and and it's glorious.
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:27.119
And right now I make incredible meals for my wife.
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:28.320
I love cooking.
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:31.119
He he has always loved cooking food and wine.
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:33.039
He's gone back to that.
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:41.039
Um, I if you want to check out his Instagram, uh B Doyle, like it's it's B Doyle503, I think.
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:42.960
Um my gosh.
00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:45.360
Uh oh my gosh, it is food porn.
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:46.960
Like you cannot imagine.
00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:49.440
I am spoiled, rotten.
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:53.360
Yeah, um, but you know, he helps me with a lot, he does help me with the laundry.
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:54.320
No, he doesn't help me.
00:34:54.400 --> 00:35:02.159
He does laundry, he you know, he does housework, he cleans, uh, he makes meals, he goes and sees his mom.
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:06.400
He, you know, does he does everything that I don't have to anymore?
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:07.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:09.039
But it it definitely was a transition.
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:10.320
Sorry for that long answer.
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:18.000
Yeah, no, that that parallels uh much of what I went through uh as well, and kind of being on the other side of it.
00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:26.159
And and he's like, I I'm very fortunate and we went through the ringer, you know, but but it's like now he loves my husband loves cooking as well.
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:32.800
Um uh full disclosure, we are taking a class next week uh to learn how to make sourdough.
00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:34.320
Oh starter.
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:36.880
I know we're on an adventure, yes.
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:48.079
So it um, you know, one of the things that that we kind of landed at is he he would say, you know, when I was working, like you took care of me, you made sure I had meals, the house was picked up, everything.
00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:53.360
So now he's kind of in this space where he's like, I'm returning that that favor.
00:35:53.679 --> 00:36:03.519
And it really, you know, it changes things because now it's like we're we're a team and we've been through the ringer on a bunch of things, and we've been through the ringer with retirement.
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:08.559
And it's I I'd be lying if I didn't say that there were days you'd mentioned the resentment.
00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:14.639
And I remember when I was on your podcast, I was like, I don't I don't really feel that these last couple of years.
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:16.800
I'm like, you know, I'm sorry.
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:21.360
Yeah, looking at retirement, I was like, oh, maybe I could retire here and then do this.
00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:23.199
And he's like, Nope, you gotta stay this much longer.
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:24.960
And I'm like, no, I don't want to.
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:29.599
And there was something else you said, and I thought, oh, did you ever experience?
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:34.320
Oh, so I'm curious if your husband experienced this too.
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:47.199
He my Bobby flat out told me one day, he said, I had no idea what you managed and maintained and kept off of me so I could just do my job.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:47.840
Yep.
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:51.440
And I'm like, Well, thank you for acknowledging it.
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:57.679
Um because yeah, he had to find new insurance one day for us.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:00.000
And he's and he's like, I'll take it.
00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:01.760
I'm like, are you sure?
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:03.760
He's like, This is horrible.
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:04.719
I'm like, uh-huh.
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:05.920
Yep, yep.
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:08.880
And so he was like, I had no idea, no idea.
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:10.159
And thank you, right?
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:11.760
Because it's a gift we give.
00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:14.239
I think families, families do that.
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:21.840
They keep a lot of that off of them so they can so they can go do what they need to do.
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:24.960
Yeah, and that's the same exact same thing.
00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:33.599
And it's funny now because I'll see his like stressful moments are being on the phone dealing with insurance or be having to make a call, you know, to do something.
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:33.920
Yeah.
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:35.519
And I just I giggle.
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:44.800
Um, and then you had mentioned the hypervigilance thing, and it's funny because it took him like his nervous system time to power down in retirement.
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:45.440
Oh, yeah.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:57.920
Um and so now because I'm still working and I'm embedded within a law enforcement agency, so I do write-alongs, like I'm I now have this hypervigilance, and I think as a spouse too, it that transfers over a little bit.
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:01.039
So now, you know, we'll go out somewhere and I'm like, Did you see that?
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:02.559
And he was like, No, what?
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:05.199
And I'm like, Oh my gosh, how did you not see that?
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:08.719
You know, and I'm like shaming him for not being hypervigilant.
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:09.760
It's a joke.
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:13.039
Mine calls me out for my my cynicism.
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:13.599
Uh-huh.
00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:24.000
He I will say something snarky or cynical, and he'll say, or maybe, and he has this like generous gratitude explanation, and I'll just look at him, I'll go, shut up.
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:25.199
Yeah, just gross.
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:25.679
Stop.
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:26.079
Yeah.
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:27.039
Stop.
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:29.440
It is so funny.
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:31.119
It's like a little role reversal.
00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:32.480
So it is so much so.
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:59.440
Um, and so what like if you could take the totality of your experience as a therapist, as a law enforcement wife, um, as an instructor, just you know, talking about relationships and and negotiating those, like what would you say is something that law enforcement uh spouses or families carry that they may not recognize they're carrying.
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:08.800
I have to think about that.
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:20.079
Um I think what it's invisible is I'm gonna go back to the not understanding how the training and the conditioning comes home.
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:35.840
I I think what we wind up doing is we wind up adjusting to the career and instead of um figuring out how do we have our life within the career.
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:58.400
So instead of instead of feeling empowered, I I think we often feel disempowered and by what's coming home or by the impact of the career or of the administration or of the or of the public opinion or um the conflict that we feel.
00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:06.400
And instead of saying, like, hey, we know this is gonna happen and this is what we're gonna choose to do instead.
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:22.159
Uh that when we get educated, I think we empower ourselves to harness or leverage our choices, where is when we don't have that, we don't feel like we have the leverage or the choice.
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:41.679
And that's probably what we carry is this idea of disempowerment or being a victim to the job when in actuality we have control of it, we just have to get educated and figure out how to work uh with it instead of against it.
00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:43.360
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
00:40:43.440 --> 00:41:00.639
And I think uh it's so, so, so true because I I feel like sometimes we as spouses can kind of victimize ourselves and get sucked into that role, like between their schedule, the demands, the on-call phone ringing, everything that we have to do and we have to kind of just take it all on.
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:00.960
Yeah.
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:07.599
Like you said, instead of there are going to be some aspects that neither of us, us or our officer, have control over.
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:17.199
Um, but like you said, you know, how can we kind of be an active participant in making this work um and staying aligned as a team, right?
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:27.920
Instead of kind of doing the finger pointing and you know, me versus you thing that I I feel like a lot of couples can gradually to that.
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:33.119
I think, well, I know we can control two things, our own behaviors and our own beliefs, right?
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:34.159
That's what we control.
00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:36.400
And so is stuff gonna happen?
00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:37.039
Absolutely.
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:40.400
We're all gonna go through the ringer, but it's how you decide.
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:42.880
It's like the our agency, right?
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:48.880
It's our it's our empowerment to say, like, yes, that happened and I can choose to do this.
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:56.400
Um, yes, my husband was kind of a snarky asshole, or my wife was being my partner, my wife was being a snarky asshole.
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:00.639
And I can say, like, wow, are you okay?
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:04.639
Because I know you love me, and that wasn't very loving, right?
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:06.480
So, can I get curious about it?
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:08.559
Like, that's a behavior I can choose.
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:08.880
Yeah.
00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:14.639
Um, or I can understand hypervigilance is gonna be that and that downside of hypervigilance, and I'm so tired.
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:18.960
And can I then say, like, you're not gonna take away this time with my family?
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:29.119
My my husband says that what bothered him the most, he really realized the people that he cared about the most got the worst part of him.
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:37.840
And that is something that I would say, okay, you know what, we're gonna get a part of you that's maybe as a first responder, we're or law enforcement, right?
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:41.039
We're gonna get a part of you that's not your 100%.
00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:50.159
But if you can give us, if you can give us your 100% at that moment, we can be understanding, but you've got you've got to want to do that too.
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:51.840
You've got to want to show up.
00:42:52.079 --> 00:43:02.000
And it might be handicapped in a way, you might be one arm behind your back, but but if you're showing up in the best way you can, I think there's a lot of grace around that.
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:02.480
Yeah.
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:05.519
And what's one thing on the officer side of the house?
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:20.000
What is one thing um that you feel would be helpful for officers to understand in terms of kind of what they're bringing home and then um, you know, the impact that that's having on the relationship?
00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:39.119
It goes back to that same kind of thing, like you deciding what kind of relationship you want to have with your kids, what kind of relationship you want to have with your partner, your family, your friends, and understanding that you're going to have a little bit of a hurdle to overcome, but you are still 100% responsible for that.
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:41.280
And yes, can family adjust?
00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:41.920
Absolutely.
00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:47.679
And you standing in their shoes, having that perspective and understanding what it's like.
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:58.719
Um, and or thinking about how do I want to show up for them and what's the best way I can show up for them now, and not letting the career say, Well, that's what happens.
00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:01.360
You know, you just you're just tired.
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:03.360
You can't, you have to go recover.
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:06.000
You get your you get your recovery time.
00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:06.880
What about your spouse?
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:07.920
What about your kids?
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:09.119
They want you.
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:13.840
So take take some ownership and agency and you decide what you want.
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:15.119
It's perfect.
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:15.679
I love that.
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:18.000
Cindy, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:19.360
I really enjoyed it for having me.
00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:24.239
Um, where can people find you and connect with you?
00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:27.440
Um, all the things are code for couples.
00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:30.800
So C O D E, the number four couples.
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:32.800
Uh, that's my website.com.
00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:37.760
That is Instagram, that is Facebook, although I'm not very active on those.
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:44.000
Um on LinkedIn, I will it's like Cindy L, I don't know, Cindy B.
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:44.480
Doyle.
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:46.480
I can send that to you if you want.
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:46.800
Okay.
00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:58.480
Um, the book's available on Amazon and all other kinds of online retails, but um I would love for you to check out my podcast and and listen and maybe share something with somebody else too.
00:44:58.719 --> 00:44:59.920
Yeah, that is fantastic.
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:09.519
And I will say through my own experience that the book, the podcast, um, you always share very authentic and very practical things.
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:20.559
Um, it's not, you know, this isn't kind of rocket science, so to speak, but the the way that you articulate it and the lens that you kind of paint so other people can navigate it, it's it's so helpful.
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:21.440
So thank you.
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:22.400
Absolutely.
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:23.760
All right, everyone, take care.
00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:25.440
We'll see you on the next one.
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:28.960
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of We Carry This.
00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:36.000
If you found this conversation helpful, share it with someone in your circle because chances are they're carrying something too.
00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:42.480
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00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:46.000
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