WE DO NOT ACCEPT | Stopping Payment Processors and the End of Freedom (VL)

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Hello, and welcome to another episode of
virtual legality.
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I'm your host, Richard Hoag, managing member of
the Hoag Law Business Law Firm of North Hill,
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Michigan.
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And I am here today with a special episode of
virtual legality and one in which I think we
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are going to talk about perhaps the most
important topic that I have ever discussed on
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this channel or in this show.
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As such, I have a special favor to request.
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If you enjoy this conversation at all, if you
have your own thoughts on this conversation,
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please do leave a comment to this YouTube
video.
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There's a number of topics we're going to
discuss that I have a feeling are not going to
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be thought kindly of by the algorithm that runs
YouTube.
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If you're listening to this in podcast form,
please leave a comment or review or otherwise.
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I think this is an important conversation to
have, And the more people that can see this,
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that can talk about it, that can think about
it, the better.
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But I do fear that because of the topics that
we're about to discuss, all of the robot
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overlords that we otherwise interact with on a
daily basis are not gonna so much care for this
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particular video.
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So if you could do that for me, I would really
appreciate it.
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Now that said, we have to talk about censorship
and not censorship from a government, the
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spirit of censorship.
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We're gonna talk about a third party coming in
and changing what two consenting entities and
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individuals wish to do with the transactions
and the money that they have earned or want to
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spend.
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And as part of that conversation, we're gonna
talk about some pretty gnarly topics and that's
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how censorship gets you, to be frank.
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Before we even get into the subject matter
here, censors operate on the premise that
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you're not going to be willing to defend that
stuff that you find, for lack of a better word,
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icky.
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That society's disfavored are gonna continue to
be disfavored, and you're gonna allow for that
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because you frankly disfavored them yourself.
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And that's totally understandable.
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But the stuff that they come for first is often
only the first thing that they wind up going
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after.
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Let's talk about it.
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Steam now bans games that violate the rules and
standards of payment processors and banks.
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This is primarily impacted titles with adult
content.
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And this is an article from Engadget.
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We're not gonna go over every possible article
that you could read on this subject.
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There are hundreds, if not thousands of them.
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So if you're interested in this, please do go
search out this information for yourself.
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I don't wanna be the final arbiter of what's
important about this story for you, but these
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are the articles and items that I found that I
was interested in that I think outline what's
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happening here.
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Steam has added a new rule to its guidelines
that has resulted in certain games getting
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banned according to a report by Automaton.
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The new clause states that content that may
violate the rules and standards set forth by
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Steam's payment processors and related card
networks and banks or Internet network
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providers is not allowed and could result in
removal from the platform.
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And we're gonna look at the primary source
material here.
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We're gonna look at that rule and my issues
with it as a lawyer in just a minute.
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But continuing with this article, In other
words, if credit card companies get mad about
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something, they could actually have the power
to ban a game.
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And that seems a little bit overly general in
this article, but I think it is apt.
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If you wanna be concerned about this topic,
what you should be concerned about is not
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specifically the games and content we are about
to talk about right now, but what it means when
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you have a rule in place like the one we're
about to see when you have platforms like Steam
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capitulating to third parties like credit
providers and what it means for the content,
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the art, the expression that you can otherwise
consume or that you can even see on a platform
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like that one.
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The clause goes on to say that this will affect
certain kinds of adult only content.
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So Valve and Gabe Newell hope.
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This has likely already resulted in many games
being pulled off the platform.
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The vast majority of these titles have obvious
sexual themes and many have the word incest in
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the title.
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Hello YouTube.
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I'm sure you're happy with me saying that word.
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We're gonna look at that database entry in just
a minute.
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This move might sound unusual on its face, but
payment processors have consistently fought
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against being used to purchase adult content.
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These battles are typically instigated on the
notion that adults only platforms don't have
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enough safeguards in place against illegal
content.
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Now that's important.
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That second sentence is an important part of
this conversation because even the payment
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processors, the Visas, the Mastercards of the
world know that they don't have the authority
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to just go force people to do what they want in
terms of content unless they can leverage it in
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some way.
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And the leverage here is the notion that these
platforms can't have illegal content on them.
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They're not allowed to do that or they will get
in trouble with the governmental authorities.
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And so these payment processors can at least
hang their hat on the hook that, okay, what we
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really have an issue with is not the content
itself.
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We're not that tyrannical.
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We're not that authoritarian.
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But we have an issue with the fact that we
don't think your process is good enough to
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identify all the illegal content that you
probably have on your platform.
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So that's part of how this conversation usually
goes.
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That does not appear to be what's happening
here.
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This is a step further than what we have seen
in the recent past, and that's why it's worthy
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of conversation and why I'm so adamant about
this topic today.
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MasterCard MasterCard and Visa blocked the use
of their cards on Pornhub in 2020.
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Mastercard went a step further in 2021, adding
language to its specialty merchant registration
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requirements that announced banks that connect
merchants to our network will need to certify
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that the seller of adult content has effective
controls in place to monitor, block, and where
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necessary, take down all illegal content.
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I doubt you'll find too many people upset that
games with titles like Sex Adventures Incest
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Family were removed from the platform, says the
disengadget author, but it could set a
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potentially troubling precedent.
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Some Steam users are upset with this rule
change on the grounds that it creates the quiet
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normalization of financial censorship.
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Indeed, it does.
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In other words, if gigantic financial
institutions get to decide what is appropriate
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and what is not, who is to say it won't
eventually impact regular games?
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Now that's a perfectly apt question, and I
understand why it's framed this way, but I
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would caution anyone reading this article or
looking at this topic in general to separate
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out regular games and not regular games on this
issue.
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One thing to note, and we'll get to it when we
look at the Steam rules in particular, is that
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Steam and every other platform that operates in
the West already outlaws the contributions that
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are illegal under whatever jurisdiction they're
operating in.
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Right?
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That's how you have to operate as a citizen of
whatever jurisdiction you find yourself in.
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So Steam already says you will not upload
things that are illegal.
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You promise that you won't upload things that
are illegal.
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Yes.
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They will have processes in place on the
background to check for what's illegal on the
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premise that people do occasionally lie when
they sign those certifications.
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But understand that this is an additional rule
to what is already banned from platforms like
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Steam.
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You can't upload things that are illegal.
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So we're capturing something that is already
allowed in whatever jurisdiction and whatever
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country society we're talking about.
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One Steam user notes that queer content gets
flagged as explicit even when it's PG, which is
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a sentiment echoed by others.
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One user says this move looks innocuous at
first glance, but it's a Trojan horse.
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And by the time we get to the end of this
video, I think you will understand why I say
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this, but the very first thing I would
recommend to anyone following this story,
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whether it's with me or elsewhere, is that you
don't look at something like this, censorship
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by a third party as something innocuous on its
face.
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Even if you think that the games that we're
gonna look at here are not worthy of your
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protection, you have to understand that the
concept of third party censorship of forcing
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Steam, a platform that is otherwise willing to
sell something, to not sell something that is
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otherwise legal in the area in which they're
operating, to not sell it because you don't
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like it as the payment processor or as we will
see an advocacy group behind the payment
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processors move in this particular respect,
that that's not an acceptable way to live in a
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modern western democratic society.
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On the flip side, says Engadget, Steam has been
home to some truly foul content over the years.
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We've reached out to Valve to ask for a comment
on this news and we'll update this post when we
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hear back.
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And we will get there in just a minute, I
promise.
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Steam database, which apparently keeps track of
all the movements in and out of Steam, which I
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think is almost impossible because there are so
many games moving in and out of Steam in any
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given time, pointed this out when it happened.
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This was what was referred to in that article
we just looked at.
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Steam has added a new rule disallowing games
that violate the rules and standards set forth
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by payment processors and card networks or
Internet network providers.
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At the same time, many incest themed games were
removed from the store, and then they show all
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these removals.
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And I can't promise you this folks, but I'm
pretty sure I have not personally bought any of
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these games, and yet I am still very passionate
about fighting for freedom of expression and
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against actions like this.
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If Steam wants to make a rule that says these
things are unacceptable to us and we don't
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wanna sell them, they're a private company that
is fully within their rights.
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But by the time they are getting forced on this
particular issue by what amounts to an
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infrastructure company that dominates the
movement of money that you've otherwise earned
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to pay for things that you want to buy across
banks, then I've got an issue with them being
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forced in this particular way.
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And no, this is not a defensive steam.
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I find their actions here to be very weak.
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But if we look at the statements that they're
going to make, and we will in just a minute,
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then we will see that they're mostly afraid of
losing all their money.
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Right?
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They've built all this platform out, but if
nobody can pay them money for the content that
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they would otherwise provide, then that's going
to scuttle their business even if they would
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otherwise not have it scuttled.
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So I understand the leverage that Visa,
Mastercard, or other payment processors have
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over a platform like Steam.
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I would sit here and say, you've got to get
strong.
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You've got to look at this and say, if we give
an inch here, if we allow our payment
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processors, an infrastructure component of what
we are doing here to say what it is we are
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allowed and not allowed to sell, then there is
no reasonable rubric.
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There's no reasonable rule we can put in place
that stops them at a given line from telling us
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everything that we can and can't do.
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So if we wanna have a platform at all, we have
to hold our ground at some point.
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We have to do it now.
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And Steam hasn't done that.
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We will see in a moment that itch.io hasn't
done that.
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If we want to stop this kind of censorship, if
we wanna stop payment processors, financial
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institutions, credit card companies from
controlling what it is we can see, what we can
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think, what we can read, what we can play, then
we have to start with these kinds of games,
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these kinds of moves because otherwise it'll be
too late.
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Continuing on, I would point out that one of
the most famous movies of all time in Chinatown
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has a very significant incest based component
and no one yet has tried to strike that down,
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but I use it as an example for what we used to
know as a society was allowed in our fiction to
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say, hey, that's an interesting dramatic point.
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That's a story we can tell and not otherwise
think that it's endorsement or otherwise
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causing damage to the world if you're Visa or
Mastercard.
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But I bring that up here only to point out that
there are a lot of things that happen in
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fiction that we don't necessarily want
happening in society, but we also don't want to
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ban everybody from reading, watching, or
playing those things, especially solely on the
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ambit of the people that are ostensibly just
trying to move money from bank to bank.
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Now looking at that Steamworks documentation as
I promised earlier in this episode, we can
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scroll down and see what onboarding your
product on a steam looks like, what rules they
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give you for what is and isn't allowed.
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You can't include hate speech.
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You can include nude or sexually explicit
images of real people, adult content that isn't
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appropriately labeled or age gated, libelous or
defamatory statements, content that you don't
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own or have adequate rights to, content that
violates the laws of any jurisdiction in which
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it will be available, content that is patently
offensive or intended to shock or disgust
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viewers, content that exploits children in any
way.
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And a lot of these rules already double up on
that number six that's on your screen right
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now, content that violates the laws of any
jurisdiction in which it will be available.
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Now that's already a problematic bit bit of
legal language because if I'm making a game and
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I'm making it available in The United States
through Steam you tell me, oh, well, China has
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a problem with it, and so I'm gonna kick it off
of Steam.
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That's not the greatest thing for me to have to
deal with.
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I don't know what the laws are in every
jurisdiction on Earth.
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In fact, don't think any lawyer does.
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And so that's probably an unreasonable request,
but not nearly as unreasonable as the new
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number 15, content that may violate the rules
and standards set forth by Steam's payment
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processors and related card networks and banks
or Internet network providers.
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In particular, certain kinds of adult only
content.
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Now Steam doesn't write their documentation
like lawyers.
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They never have.
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That's a part of the software industry on the
whole.
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They try to write things in what they call
plain English, but it does mean that you
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00:13:00,115 --> 00:13:01,154
introduce ambiguities.
215
00:13:01,154 --> 00:13:05,139
It does mean that you're not as precise as a
lawyer drafting these things would otherwise
216
00:13:05,139 --> 00:13:05,700
be.
217
00:13:05,700 --> 00:13:09,940
So like this second sentence, in particular
certain kinds of adult only content, really
218
00:13:09,940 --> 00:13:13,220
doesn't matter for what the actual restriction
is.
219
00:13:13,220 --> 00:13:18,485
It's just included seemingly as an aside, but
this restriction in 15 could capture anything
220
00:13:18,485 --> 00:13:19,125
at all.
221
00:13:19,205 --> 00:13:22,165
It doesn't reasonably stop at adult content.
222
00:13:22,165 --> 00:13:27,764
If Visa, Mastercard, PayPal, whomever decided
that they didn't like gays, they didn't like
223
00:13:27,764 --> 00:13:32,159
blacks, they didn't like republicans, whatever
it is that they decided and that that goes
224
00:13:32,159 --> 00:13:36,159
against their rules and standards to depict
them in any way, there is nothing in this
225
00:13:36,159 --> 00:13:40,960
provision that restricts their ability to ban
those games or otherwise ask for their removal
226
00:13:41,039 --> 00:13:44,879
only to quote unquote certain kinds of adult
only content.
227
00:13:45,274 --> 00:13:47,035
So that's the first thing I note here.
228
00:13:47,035 --> 00:13:51,754
The second thing I note is that content that
may violate the rules and standards is a
229
00:13:51,754 --> 00:13:56,875
different kind of concept than as we see in
number six, content that violates the laws.
230
00:13:56,875 --> 00:13:57,195
Right?
231
00:13:57,195 --> 00:14:01,070
It's not content that may violate the laws,
it's content that violates the laws.
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00:14:01,070 --> 00:14:05,870
The provision in 15 should probably be written
as content that actually violates the rules and
233
00:14:05,870 --> 00:14:09,870
standards set by their payment processors and
related everything else, but it doesn't.
234
00:14:09,870 --> 00:14:12,110
It says content that may violate those things.
235
00:14:12,190 --> 00:14:18,795
So one, it's inclusive of things that may not
even violate it as long as they may violate it.
236
00:14:18,955 --> 00:14:23,434
And it's determined presumably by the payment
processors themselves who I don't have access
237
00:14:23,434 --> 00:14:24,634
to or optics on.
238
00:14:24,875 --> 00:14:29,769
And it's on standards and rules that don't
appear to have been provided to me in any way.
239
00:14:29,769 --> 00:14:33,370
Presumably, Visa, Mastercard, and the other
payment processors are not providing those
240
00:14:33,370 --> 00:14:35,289
standards and rules to Steam in general.
241
00:14:35,690 --> 00:14:40,934
And so if they're not doing that, then Steam
can't pass them along to their clients, the
242
00:14:40,934 --> 00:14:43,574
people that put content and games on their
platform.
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00:14:43,574 --> 00:14:49,735
So we have like five different layers of
ambiguity here, that result in a person making
244
00:14:49,735 --> 00:14:54,054
content, making a game to put on the Steam
platform so that they can make money, they can
245
00:14:54,054 --> 00:14:55,495
feed their family, whatever else that they're
doing.
246
00:14:56,190 --> 00:15:00,990
And they don't even know what they're agreeing
to here because they don't have these standards
247
00:15:01,070 --> 00:15:04,029
and rules to actually bounce off of in any
event.
248
00:15:04,029 --> 00:15:06,910
So it's now sending content into the darkness.
249
00:15:07,230 --> 00:15:12,164
Valve presumably put this rule in place on the
request of one or more of the payment
250
00:15:12,164 --> 00:15:16,485
processors at the heart of this particular
controversy, but it provides absolutely no
251
00:15:16,485 --> 00:15:21,845
solace or understanding, no meeting of the
minds as to what this term might even mean as
252
00:15:21,845 --> 00:15:24,245
between Valve and the people that are making
their content.
253
00:15:24,245 --> 00:15:26,159
So this is a legal train wreck.
254
00:15:26,159 --> 00:15:31,120
This is a legal car crash, however you want to
frame it in your mind as it stands just as
255
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:31,679
written.
256
00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:36,080
And that's before we even get to more of the
problems as we go into this story.
257
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:41,424
Continuing on, Valve confirms the credit card
companies pressured it to delist certain adult
258
00:15:41,424 --> 00:15:42,544
games from Steam.
259
00:15:42,625 --> 00:15:46,225
It's not a great precedent, that's for sure,
says PC Gamer.
260
00:15:46,544 --> 00:15:50,464
We were recently notified that certain games on
Steam may violate the rules and standards set
261
00:15:50,464 --> 00:15:54,065
forth by our payment processors and the related
card networks and banks, said Valve.
262
00:15:54,490 --> 00:15:58,649
As a result, we are retiring those games from
being sold on the Steam store.
263
00:15:58,889 --> 00:16:03,049
Valve is reaching out to devs impacted by the
change and issuing app credits should they have
264
00:16:03,049 --> 00:16:05,610
another game they'd like to distribute on Steam
in the future.
265
00:16:05,690 --> 00:16:11,424
So Steam takes a bit of money, a small amount
of money in payment for actually putting the
266
00:16:11,424 --> 00:16:12,464
game on their platform.
267
00:16:12,464 --> 00:16:16,304
So if you get delisted after that's been paid,
that's essentially been lost.
268
00:16:16,384 --> 00:16:18,625
They're not refunding that money as best I can
tell here.
269
00:16:18,625 --> 00:16:23,129
They're issuing a credit like you get if your
plane is delayed and you wanna get to wherever
270
00:16:23,129 --> 00:16:26,649
it is that you're going and you get a credit
that may or may not be sufficient to actually
271
00:16:26,649 --> 00:16:28,169
get you to your destination.
272
00:16:28,329 --> 00:16:31,850
This is one of those situations where the
company is keeping your money, keeping your
273
00:16:31,850 --> 00:16:36,250
cash that it can spend on other things,
offering you a credit and not otherwise helping
274
00:16:36,250 --> 00:16:37,049
you out in the future.
275
00:16:37,049 --> 00:16:42,045
Now that's better than nothing to Valve's
credit there, but it's not as good as a refund
276
00:16:42,045 --> 00:16:44,605
of the money that was spent on actually getting
listed on the store.
277
00:16:44,605 --> 00:16:48,285
So just getting delisted randomly for nothing
that you actually did wrong because that rule
278
00:16:48,285 --> 00:16:51,565
that we just read was only put in place as a
result of this story.
279
00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:55,940
That's that's a problem if I'm a video game
creator and I'm trying to put something on one
280
00:16:55,940 --> 00:16:57,059
of these platforms.
281
00:16:57,220 --> 00:17:02,179
PC gamer continues, to be fair to the house
that Gabe Newell built, Steam, I don't think it
282
00:17:02,179 --> 00:17:03,379
has much of a choice.
283
00:17:03,540 --> 00:17:06,339
Now that's not true, but we'll talk about that
in just a minute.
284
00:17:06,565 --> 00:17:10,325
Valve explicitly said that it was removing the
offending games because loss of payment methods
285
00:17:10,325 --> 00:17:14,565
would prevent customers from being able to
purchase other titles and game content on
286
00:17:14,565 --> 00:17:15,204
Steam.
287
00:17:15,285 --> 00:17:18,644
Now that's the framing device that Valve and
Steam has used here.
288
00:17:18,644 --> 00:17:23,950
Hey, you won't be able to buy games from us if
we can't support any of the credit card
289
00:17:23,950 --> 00:17:26,029
processing payments through our system.
290
00:17:26,109 --> 00:17:29,549
And so in order to make sure that you can
continue to buy things from us, we're the good
291
00:17:29,549 --> 00:17:29,789
guys.
292
00:17:29,789 --> 00:17:32,190
We're gonna get rid of these games that they
don't otherwise like.
293
00:17:32,349 --> 00:17:37,744
But it's not too far afield to suggest that
what Steam is really concerned about is if you
294
00:17:37,744 --> 00:17:40,944
can't buy the games from them, they can't get
the money from you.
295
00:17:41,024 --> 00:17:41,265
Right?
296
00:17:41,265 --> 00:17:43,345
So they're saying, okay, we'll get rid of
these.
297
00:17:43,345 --> 00:17:47,825
I think it's about 500 games because we wanna
make sure that we can continue to get money
298
00:17:47,825 --> 00:17:48,224
from you.
299
00:17:48,529 --> 00:17:53,490
But Steam is a giant entity and Valve is a
giant corporation in this space.
300
00:17:53,490 --> 00:17:57,569
One of the reasons this story is so interesting
is because usually you see something like this
301
00:17:57,569 --> 00:18:01,970
go up through the smaller platforms, through
the smaller companies until they get to the
302
00:18:01,970 --> 00:18:02,529
really big fish.
303
00:18:02,944 --> 00:18:05,105
Here the story actually begins with the big
fish.
304
00:18:05,105 --> 00:18:11,345
Steam is the biggest fish in the PC gaming
market and you would expect Steam to have the
305
00:18:11,345 --> 00:18:13,505
strongest backbone on a question like this.
306
00:18:13,505 --> 00:18:15,025
Look, alright, payment processors.
307
00:18:15,289 --> 00:18:18,890
You're really gonna kick us out, if you're not
gonna process any of these payments, that's a
308
00:18:18,890 --> 00:18:21,609
huge amount of money for you payment
processors.
309
00:18:21,609 --> 00:18:25,849
They take a cut out of every transaction they
help facilitate, and so you have to get rid of
310
00:18:25,849 --> 00:18:28,329
that off your bottom line and we'll figure out
a way around this.
311
00:18:28,585 --> 00:18:33,305
If we're Steam, we'll figure out a way to have
a secondary marketplace where we only sell gift
312
00:18:33,305 --> 00:18:37,785
card bucks and that you can't otherwise look
through and figure out what those gift card
313
00:18:37,785 --> 00:18:39,065
bucks are being spent on.
314
00:18:39,065 --> 00:18:43,500
We'll sell those gift card bucks, we'll make
our own financial system, and we'll make all
315
00:18:43,500 --> 00:18:43,980
the money.
316
00:18:43,980 --> 00:18:47,660
We'll do even better because we're not paying
credit card or processing fees at all, and you
317
00:18:47,660 --> 00:18:49,900
guys can go take a walk off a short pier.
318
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:51,100
Steam didn't do that.
319
00:18:51,100 --> 00:18:51,900
Steam said, nope.
320
00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:52,220
Alright.
321
00:18:52,220 --> 00:18:53,580
We'll capitulate on this.
322
00:18:53,580 --> 00:18:57,580
And that's one of the areas where I think this
story is not being discussed enough.
323
00:18:57,955 --> 00:19:03,634
The platforms are in by far the best position
to fight this entire endeavor and Steam bending
324
00:19:03,634 --> 00:19:08,515
the knee, Steam yielding the ground, whatever
you want to frame that particular metaphor as
325
00:19:08,755 --> 00:19:14,930
is going to speak to the other platforms that
don't have nearly the leverage or power of
326
00:19:14,930 --> 00:19:16,210
Steam and Valve.
327
00:19:16,210 --> 00:19:22,529
And so they have done everything but lead on
this enormously important question of freedom
328
00:19:22,529 --> 00:19:27,170
of expression, what art means, what people
should have the access to either in their
329
00:19:27,170 --> 00:19:30,784
gaming, their video, their reading or
otherwise.
330
00:19:31,105 --> 00:19:36,625
And by capitulating in this way, they've done a
great disservice to everyone that believes in
331
00:19:36,625 --> 00:19:37,984
that freedom of expression.
332
00:19:38,784 --> 00:19:42,144
And I think that's all I wanted to pull from
this particular PC gamer article except to note
333
00:19:42,144 --> 00:19:46,890
that this quote here that has Valve talking
about payment methods being lost isn't
334
00:19:46,890 --> 00:19:48,330
otherwise sourced in the article.
335
00:19:48,330 --> 00:19:50,009
I hate it when authors do that.
336
00:19:50,009 --> 00:19:57,855
I was able to find it on a article from PC
Guide which links to another article because
337
00:19:57,855 --> 00:20:01,294
this is the way these things sometimes go on
the Internet to a source called Gaming on
338
00:20:01,294 --> 00:20:01,934
Linux.
339
00:20:02,095 --> 00:20:07,134
I wasn't able to get that particular link
provided in this article to actually show this
340
00:20:07,134 --> 00:20:07,454
quote.
341
00:20:07,769 --> 00:20:11,369
So we're a couple of steps removed from
actually seeing Valve make this statement, but
342
00:20:11,369 --> 00:20:14,730
there's no real reason to believe that they
didn't express this thought.
343
00:20:14,730 --> 00:20:16,410
So we're gonna continue to say it here.
344
00:20:16,410 --> 00:20:18,409
It's reported on in a number of places.
345
00:20:18,650 --> 00:20:21,794
We were recently notified that certain games
may violate the rules and standards set forth
346
00:20:21,794 --> 00:20:24,674
by our payment processors and their related
card networks and banks.
347
00:20:24,994 --> 00:20:28,114
As a result, we were retiring those games from
being sold in the Steam store.
348
00:20:28,115 --> 00:20:31,315
We are directly notifying developers of these
games and issuing app credits should they have
349
00:20:31,315 --> 00:20:33,394
another game they'd like to distribute on Steam
in the future.
350
00:20:33,394 --> 00:20:38,289
And if I were those developers, I would be very
cautious about wanting to distribute on that
351
00:20:38,289 --> 00:20:42,529
platform at all except that if you wanna make a
PC game available to the biggest audience,
352
00:20:42,529 --> 00:20:43,650
you're gonna use Steam.
353
00:20:43,730 --> 00:20:47,089
And I think Steam knows that so they can do
something like this to developers that they
354
00:20:47,089 --> 00:20:50,984
otherwise think of themselves as quote unquote
disfavored.
355
00:20:51,304 --> 00:20:57,625
And so this is gonna be okay for them, but it
shows a tremendous lack of backbone from Steam
356
00:20:57,625 --> 00:21:02,345
because you do not give an inch like this and
not expect to ultimately give a mile, which is
357
00:21:02,345 --> 00:21:05,380
in fact what we see as part of this story.
358
00:21:05,380 --> 00:21:07,460
That's the Steam part so far.
359
00:21:07,859 --> 00:21:12,580
But as we see from Nicole Carpenter at Steven
Totillo's Game File, which is one of my
360
00:21:12,580 --> 00:21:18,900
favorite sources right now for quote unquote
serious or hard games journalism at this point,
361
00:21:19,265 --> 00:21:25,025
crackdown on sex video games goes wide,
alarming developers and impacting award winning
362
00:21:25,025 --> 00:21:25,664
titles.
363
00:21:25,904 --> 00:21:30,785
Thousands of NSFW, not safe for work games,
currently can't be found when searching the
364
00:21:30,785 --> 00:21:32,065
popular itch.
365
00:21:32,065 --> 00:21:32,545
Marketplace.
366
00:21:32,759 --> 00:21:36,359
And if I pronounce it as itche0 at some point,
that's how I think of it in my head.
367
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,279
So I apologize for anybody that uses that
platform.
368
00:21:38,279 --> 00:21:40,039
That's not where I regularly go to game.
369
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,519
But I believe they prefer itch.io.
370
00:21:42,519 --> 00:21:44,279
I will try to say that as much as I can.
371
00:21:45,644 --> 00:21:49,484
Thousands of games labeled not safe for work no
longer show up in the search results for two of
372
00:21:49,484 --> 00:21:54,365
the biggest online marketplaces for PC games
following a crackdown that ostensibly involved
373
00:21:54,365 --> 00:21:58,720
hundreds of games featuring rape, incest, and
child sex abuse on Steam.
374
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,519
And yes, YouTube is just gonna love this video,
you can already tell.
375
00:22:01,679 --> 00:22:06,480
But the mass de indexing of thousands of games
and other pieces of media has had a broader, if
376
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,720
potentially temporary impact censoring any
games flagged as having sensitive content.
377
00:22:11,115 --> 00:22:13,035
Some of those games are indie award winners.
378
00:22:13,035 --> 00:22:15,755
Now I understand the framing device of this
article.
379
00:22:15,755 --> 00:22:22,234
Look, it is very hard to defend the long list
of sex family incest titles that are on that
380
00:22:22,234 --> 00:22:23,194
Steam database.
381
00:22:23,194 --> 00:22:24,154
I get that.
382
00:22:24,234 --> 00:22:25,515
That is how censorship works.
383
00:22:25,730 --> 00:22:30,049
So you take an article like this and you try to
frame it as but it captured some other more
384
00:22:30,049 --> 00:22:35,570
important, more regular, more normal games in
the maelstrom of removals here and so care
385
00:22:35,570 --> 00:22:36,289
about that one.
386
00:22:36,289 --> 00:22:41,825
What I would tell my viewers, my listeners here
in virtual reality is to try to avoid that
387
00:22:41,825 --> 00:22:43,345
distinction in your own head.
388
00:22:43,345 --> 00:22:45,184
This is not about regular, not regular.
389
00:22:45,184 --> 00:22:50,384
This is not about, what is beyond the pale and
what is acceptable and, oh, no, the critically
390
00:22:50,384 --> 00:22:52,784
acclaimed game has been sucked into this
particular maelstrom.
391
00:22:53,170 --> 00:22:54,769
It is about censorship.
392
00:22:54,769 --> 00:22:59,009
It is about the fact that someone outside of
the people that are otherwise trying to make
393
00:22:59,009 --> 00:23:03,170
content available wants to say that shouldn't
be allowed, but they are not the government.
394
00:23:03,170 --> 00:23:09,025
They are not elected to anything, and that
should be looked very much askance, very
395
00:23:09,105 --> 00:23:13,664
circumspectly, very cautiously by anybody that
is reading this story.
396
00:23:13,664 --> 00:23:17,904
So we're gonna hear a good story about how a
critically acclaimed game got sucked into this.
397
00:23:17,984 --> 00:23:18,785
That's fine.
398
00:23:18,785 --> 00:23:19,585
That's bad.
399
00:23:19,664 --> 00:23:24,599
But that should not be the only impetus behind
being concerned about this particular set of
400
00:23:24,599 --> 00:23:25,240
events.
401
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,720
The crackdown on sex related games began
earlier this month with mass delistings of
402
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,319
games on Valve's Steam marketplace.
403
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:36,125
A purge of another sort began early Thursday a
few days ago now as game distribution platform
404
00:23:36,125 --> 00:23:41,244
itch.io, which is largely focused on indie
creators, suddenly pulled all adult and not
405
00:23:41,244 --> 00:23:44,044
safe for work content from its search and
browse pages.
406
00:23:44,125 --> 00:23:48,204
The games are there mostly, just not findable
via search, which is the equivalent of being
407
00:23:48,204 --> 00:23:48,365
dead.
408
00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:54,059
In its efforts to assess its content, itch.io
has seemingly pulled any content marked as
409
00:23:54,059 --> 00:23:59,019
sensitive, including independent games
festivals awards, Seamus McNally grand prize,
410
00:23:59,180 --> 00:24:04,875
and Nuovo award winner, Consume Me, from
developers Jenny, Jiao, Hissia and AP Thompson
411
00:24:04,875 --> 00:24:06,795
or Thompson is probably more likely there.
412
00:24:06,795 --> 00:24:08,954
I apologize for any mispronunciations there.
413
00:24:09,035 --> 00:24:12,075
Consume Me is a personal game about disordered
eating and diet culture.
414
00:24:12,394 --> 00:24:15,355
And Hissia said she's not even sure if she
tagged the game as sensitive.
415
00:24:15,539 --> 00:24:18,180
The demo has been up on itch.io since 2018.
416
00:24:18,180 --> 00:24:18,420
Yes.
417
00:24:18,420 --> 00:24:20,099
I believe I saw it on a day of the devs.
418
00:24:20,420 --> 00:24:22,900
There's nothing that would earn it a mature
content rating.
419
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:25,380
What's unclear is how long it'll take to
return.
420
00:24:25,460 --> 00:24:29,940
If it isn't reindexed by our launch date of
September 25, then we probably won't launch on
421
00:24:29,940 --> 00:24:30,420
itch.
422
00:24:31,375 --> 00:24:32,575
Game makers on itch.
423
00:24:32,575 --> 00:24:35,855
Began to realize on Wednesday that their
content was being shadow banned or de indexed
424
00:24:35,855 --> 00:24:36,974
from the digital marketplace.
425
00:24:36,974 --> 00:24:38,974
And on Thursday, the itch.
426
00:24:38,974 --> 00:24:42,734
Founder said in a statement that the platform
took the sudden and disruptive action of de
427
00:24:42,734 --> 00:24:48,089
indexing all adult games and removing others to
protect the platform's core payment
428
00:24:48,089 --> 00:24:48,809
infrastructure.
429
00:24:48,809 --> 00:24:53,929
So the very same thing that we saw Steam say or
at least that it's reported that Steam said,
430
00:24:54,009 --> 00:24:57,769
which is we need to make sure that people can
still buy things from this platform.
431
00:24:58,089 --> 00:25:01,934
But this is a bigger story than all of that.
432
00:25:02,095 --> 00:25:05,934
The calling of not safe for work content on
itch.io has been deep.
433
00:25:05,934 --> 00:25:11,855
On July 16, there were 28,144 games in the not
safe for work category page on itch.
434
00:25:12,490 --> 00:25:17,929
Now only 5,979 appear, and it's not clear why
these games remain despite being listed on the
435
00:25:17,929 --> 00:25:21,049
n s of the NSFW category page.
436
00:25:21,289 --> 00:25:26,089
Earlier this month, 7,167 games on itch were
tagged NSFW.
437
00:25:26,169 --> 00:25:28,009
Now only two such games can be found.
438
00:25:28,465 --> 00:25:32,545
The majority of games impacted by itch.io's new
policy are still available to access and
439
00:25:32,545 --> 00:25:35,105
purchase, but don't show up during searches.
440
00:25:35,744 --> 00:25:39,664
And we're gonna look at the itch.i0 statement
as part of this in just a second.
441
00:25:40,065 --> 00:25:43,630
As with Valve Software's recent removal of
several games with sexual content from its
442
00:25:43,630 --> 00:25:48,029
Steam platform, itch.io was targeted by
Collective Shout.
443
00:25:48,190 --> 00:25:51,710
And keep that name in mind, we're gonna get to
that towards the tail end of this video.
444
00:25:51,710 --> 00:25:52,989
You better believe we are.
445
00:25:53,069 --> 00:25:57,505
An Australian group that describes itself as a
grassroots campaign movement against the
446
00:25:57,505 --> 00:26:01,744
objectification of women and the sexualization
of girls, and that calls for censorship of what
447
00:26:01,744 --> 00:26:03,505
it deems to be pornographic.
448
00:26:03,505 --> 00:26:08,785
And that what it deems to be is so important as
part of this conversation.
449
00:26:08,785 --> 00:26:09,184
Right?
450
00:26:09,184 --> 00:26:14,210
We are talking about a group of people that are
self selected and determining of their own
451
00:26:14,210 --> 00:26:20,130
accord what is in is and is not acceptable for
you or I to consume or observe.
452
00:26:20,210 --> 00:26:22,369
That's the core of this conversation.
453
00:26:22,369 --> 00:26:23,410
This is not an electric group.
454
00:26:23,410 --> 00:26:25,009
These are not government officials of any kind.
455
00:26:25,345 --> 00:26:30,144
These are people that apparently are from
Australia that have decided that they are going
456
00:26:30,144 --> 00:26:35,025
to change the culture of Earth and they're
gonna do it by convincing Visa, Mastercard, and
457
00:26:35,025 --> 00:26:39,460
other payment processors that they should pull
back their processing services when there's
458
00:26:39,460 --> 00:26:42,819
something that this particular group doesn't
like available on those platforms.
459
00:26:42,819 --> 00:26:47,700
Regardless, again, of whether or not what we're
talking about is legal because places like
460
00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:54,179
Steam already have bans on what is illegal that
you can't put that content on their platform.
461
00:26:54,565 --> 00:26:59,205
The group has claimed responsibility for acts
like Target and Kmart pulling the popular Grand
462
00:26:59,205 --> 00:27:03,605
Theft Auto five from their Australian stores
and getting musician Tyler, the creator's
463
00:27:03,605 --> 00:27:05,044
Australian tour canceled.
464
00:27:05,045 --> 00:27:07,619
Tyler the creator probably, probably one name.
465
00:27:07,619 --> 00:27:10,819
Don't know his music, so I apologize there.
466
00:27:11,380 --> 00:27:16,420
In April, Collective Shout aimed its efforts at
valvinitch.io to get a game called No Mercy
467
00:27:16,420 --> 00:27:17,539
removed from sale.
468
00:27:17,619 --> 00:27:20,740
Its creator said the game is about male
domination and allows the players to have sex
469
00:27:20,740 --> 00:27:24,585
with any woman, including her mother and other
family members whether she wants to or not.
470
00:27:24,825 --> 00:27:29,464
No Mercy, as described, is on the extreme end
of the spectrum and was indeed pulled from all
471
00:27:29,464 --> 00:27:30,105
storefronts.
472
00:27:30,105 --> 00:27:30,904
Now, Ms.
473
00:27:30,904 --> 00:27:35,779
Carpenter, the author of this article, is doing
a really good job putting the right language in
474
00:27:35,779 --> 00:27:38,339
place to suggest what she knows and what she
doesn't know here.
475
00:27:38,339 --> 00:27:38,579
Right?
476
00:27:38,579 --> 00:27:42,099
This is she takes the no mercy description from
what she could find from Collective Shout and
477
00:27:42,099 --> 00:27:45,380
says, as described, this is on the far end of
the spectrum.
478
00:27:45,380 --> 00:27:50,894
Other language that she uses is talks about the
things that she can convey properly that she
479
00:27:50,894 --> 00:27:52,654
has actual knowledge of and what she can't.
480
00:27:52,654 --> 00:27:56,255
This is one of the reasons I like Theme Files
so much is that they take the effort to
481
00:27:56,255 --> 00:28:01,500
actually make sure that they aren't just
stoking the fires of Internet outrage and do a
482
00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:05,099
better job than most of conveying what's
actually happened to you as you read it.
483
00:28:05,099 --> 00:28:07,099
So I give full endorsement to Gamefile.
484
00:28:07,099 --> 00:28:08,460
If you're interested, it's a substack.
485
00:28:08,460 --> 00:28:12,779
Steven Dortilla, formerly of Kotaku, formerly
of MTV Gaming, runs it.
486
00:28:12,940 --> 00:28:17,534
I think he may have mentioned virtual reality
in one or more of them in the past.
487
00:28:17,534 --> 00:28:20,734
I'm not positive of that, but this is not a
funded endorsement.
488
00:28:20,734 --> 00:28:23,615
I just really like their content, so check it
out when you get the chance.
489
00:28:23,615 --> 00:28:27,774
This continues to talk about on July 11,
Collective Shout announced it had sent an open
490
00:28:27,774 --> 00:28:31,730
letter to a group of CEOs at six digital
payment processors, including PayPal and
491
00:28:31,730 --> 00:28:37,170
Mastercard, urging them to block payment
processing for both Steam, itch.io, and any
492
00:28:37,170 --> 00:28:39,089
other platforms hosting similar games.
493
00:28:39,170 --> 00:28:42,690
The group wrote, we do not see how facilitating
payment transactions and deriving financial
494
00:28:42,690 --> 00:28:47,794
benefit from those violent and unethical games
is consistent with your corporate values and
495
00:28:47,794 --> 00:28:48,755
mission statements.
496
00:28:48,755 --> 00:28:53,154
And we're gonna look at that letter in full
towards the tail end of this video.
497
00:28:53,315 --> 00:28:56,434
Payment processors have power over the people
and companies who rely on them.
498
00:28:56,690 --> 00:29:01,250
If Mastercard or PayPal were to revoke access
to Steam or itch.io, the platform's whole
499
00:29:01,250 --> 00:29:02,929
payment infrastructure would collapse.
500
00:29:03,009 --> 00:29:05,809
These platforms need a payment processor for
users to buy things.
501
00:29:05,890 --> 00:29:10,514
Neither the platform holder nor the game
developer make any money if access is revoked.
502
00:29:10,514 --> 00:29:14,194
We're gonna talk about the function of a
payment processor again as part of this video
503
00:29:14,194 --> 00:29:17,875
because I think that's really important to
understanding what it is they do, what it is
504
00:29:17,875 --> 00:29:21,554
they're supposed to do, and what it is they're
not supposed to do, such as judging what the
505
00:29:21,554 --> 00:29:22,514
money is spent on.
506
00:29:22,514 --> 00:29:23,474
So we'll talk about that.
507
00:29:23,474 --> 00:29:23,875
I promise.
508
00:29:24,349 --> 00:29:28,349
On July 18, Valve confirmed to PC gamer that it
had been recently notified that certain games
509
00:29:28,349 --> 00:29:32,269
on Steam may violate the rules and standards
set forth by our payment processors and the
510
00:29:32,269 --> 00:29:33,789
related card networks and banks.
511
00:29:33,789 --> 00:29:36,815
Note, by the way, as part of the statement, and
I should have mentioned this earlier, that
512
00:29:36,815 --> 00:29:41,134
Valve is using the same language that they
actually just put into their rules for content
513
00:29:41,134 --> 00:29:42,734
providers on their platform.
514
00:29:43,055 --> 00:29:46,335
They have been notified that certain games may
violate the rules and standards.
515
00:29:46,335 --> 00:29:51,610
So it appears that Valve is doing this without
direct understanding that the actual games at
516
00:29:51,610 --> 00:29:54,009
issue here do violate those rules and
standards.
517
00:29:54,090 --> 00:29:57,690
Just a statement presumably from one or more of
the payment processors that said they may
518
00:29:57,769 --> 00:30:01,930
because nobody's going through any kind of due
process here to actually establish what is what
519
00:30:01,930 --> 00:30:04,250
is in and what is not in these games.
520
00:30:05,555 --> 00:30:10,835
By July 19, Collective Shout had claimed the
win after dozens of gamers games were removed.
521
00:30:10,914 --> 00:30:14,115
Valve also quietly added a clause to its
policies that we went over at the top of this
522
00:30:14,115 --> 00:30:14,674
video.
523
00:30:14,755 --> 00:30:18,769
While most impacted games on itch.io are still
there, just not searchable, some have been
524
00:30:18,769 --> 00:30:19,890
removed from the site.
525
00:30:19,890 --> 00:30:21,730
And then they go over some of the summaries
here.
526
00:30:21,730 --> 00:30:26,369
I will link these articles in the podcast
description to this video so you can check
527
00:30:26,369 --> 00:30:27,649
those out for yourself.
528
00:30:27,809 --> 00:30:32,924
But that's the situation with itch with
itch.io, and they made their own statement much
529
00:30:32,924 --> 00:30:35,164
more publicly than Steam actually did.
530
00:30:35,404 --> 00:30:41,565
We have de indexed says itch.all adult not safe
for work content from our browse and search
531
00:30:41,565 --> 00:30:42,204
pages.
532
00:30:42,285 --> 00:30:45,910
We understand this action is sudden and
disruptive and we are truly sorry for the
533
00:30:45,910 --> 00:30:48,230
frustration and confusion caused by this
change.
534
00:30:48,470 --> 00:30:52,470
Recently, we came under scrutiny from our
payment processors regarding the nature of some
535
00:30:52,470 --> 00:30:54,230
content hosted on itch.io.
536
00:30:54,390 --> 00:30:58,630
Due to a game called No Mercy, which was
temporarily available on itch.i0 before being
537
00:30:58,630 --> 00:31:03,455
banned in in April, the organization Collective
Shout launched a campaign against Steam and
538
00:31:03,455 --> 00:31:04,095
itch.
539
00:31:04,255 --> 00:31:08,734
Directing concerns to our payment processors
about the nature of certain content found on
540
00:31:08,734 --> 00:31:09,535
both platforms.
541
00:31:09,535 --> 00:31:12,095
So two things here just from the early bits of
this statement.
542
00:31:12,095 --> 00:31:19,500
One, you can see what I'm concerned about as a
lawyer, and an advocate for the justice system
543
00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:24,779
and government and civics in general, certainly
in The United States, if not everywhere, that
544
00:31:24,779 --> 00:31:29,924
Collective Shout launched this campaign to
direct concerns to payment processors and not
545
00:31:29,924 --> 00:31:34,565
to go through what normal advocacy groups would
do in this context, which is go and seek
546
00:31:34,565 --> 00:31:38,570
advocacy from their representatives, go through
a governmental process, actually go to those
547
00:31:38,570 --> 00:31:43,289
elected to govern these particular issues by
the people of those jurisdictions to make
548
00:31:43,289 --> 00:31:44,809
policy decisions of this type.
549
00:31:44,809 --> 00:31:48,250
Instead, collective shout said, we are the
makers of policy.
550
00:31:48,250 --> 00:31:53,994
We can decide what is allowed and not allowed,
what should be acceptable, and we can take this
551
00:31:53,994 --> 00:31:59,355
key pin, this key linchpin of the
infrastructure of digital platforms like Steam
552
00:31:59,355 --> 00:32:04,474
and itch.io and tell that linchpin that we have
this problem and we're gonna make it public.
553
00:32:04,474 --> 00:32:08,799
We're gonna do all these bad things to you if
you don't otherwise facilitate what it is that
554
00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:10,079
we want to see happen.
555
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:11,759
Collective shout does this.
556
00:32:11,759 --> 00:32:16,799
They do it for no mercy to begin with and that
is in fact the slippery slope that leads us
557
00:32:16,799 --> 00:32:18,960
here to July 2025.
558
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:24,335
But there is no indication, there's no reason
to believe that that slope is otherwise going
559
00:32:24,335 --> 00:32:28,654
to end just with these removals just in July.
560
00:32:29,134 --> 00:32:30,654
Itch.i0 continues.
561
00:32:30,815 --> 00:32:34,894
Our ability to process payments is critical for
every creator on our platform.
562
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,080
To ensure that we can continue to operate and
provide a marketplace for all developers, we
563
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,080
must prioritize our relationship with our
payment partners and take immediate steps
564
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:43,960
towards compliance.
565
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,545
And again, this is the same concept that Steam
and Valve put out there, which is that we wanna
566
00:32:48,545 --> 00:32:52,464
make sure that we can still allow you to buy
the other games that you otherwise want.
567
00:32:52,464 --> 00:32:56,304
These things are probably not high volume on
these platforms in any event.
568
00:32:56,865 --> 00:32:58,464
But again, it's very self serving.
569
00:32:58,464 --> 00:32:58,865
Right?
570
00:32:58,865 --> 00:33:01,984
This is a sign of weakness of the platform, not
strength.
571
00:33:01,984 --> 00:33:05,609
They're trying to say, we're helping you, the
customer, make sure that you can buy the things
572
00:33:05,609 --> 00:33:06,410
you wanna buy.
573
00:33:06,410 --> 00:33:10,329
But realistically, they are saying we need to
make sure that we can have a digital pipeline
574
00:33:10,329 --> 00:33:14,730
of money or else we're not gonna be able to
function as a platform same as Steam did.
575
00:33:14,730 --> 00:33:19,535
But one thing I would impart on you if you're
watching this or you're listening to it is that
576
00:33:19,535 --> 00:33:25,134
as a consumer, we should take the steps to talk
to these platforms to say, hey, look, we
577
00:33:25,134 --> 00:33:26,335
understand the situation.
578
00:33:26,335 --> 00:33:32,654
If you wind up getting Mastercard, PayPal,
Visa, whatever it is, stripped from our ability
579
00:33:32,654 --> 00:33:37,779
to pay you in that function, Let's figure out a
way whether it's bubble gum or bailing wire to
580
00:33:37,779 --> 00:33:40,099
get you a financial infrastructure to get you
money.
581
00:33:40,099 --> 00:33:46,339
We would much rather support a platform that is
going to defend our right to play what we wanna
582
00:33:46,339 --> 00:33:49,835
play, to defend the freedom of expression over
all of these people that are making those
583
00:33:49,835 --> 00:33:50,394
things.
584
00:33:50,634 --> 00:33:54,714
And we would not like to see whatever it is
that you are really concerned about, whether
585
00:33:54,714 --> 00:34:00,714
it's Grand Theft Auto, Detroit Become Human,
some other games that have popped up as part of
586
00:34:00,714 --> 00:34:03,889
this particular story, Baldur's Gate three.
587
00:34:04,130 --> 00:34:06,690
And we wanna make sure that we can still access
those things.
588
00:34:06,690 --> 00:34:08,130
Let's figure this thing out together.
589
00:34:08,130 --> 00:34:12,849
Let's not negotiate with these people because
this is no way at all to run a railroad.
590
00:34:13,090 --> 00:34:15,170
This is a time critical for itch.io.
591
00:34:15,485 --> 00:34:20,525
The the situation developed rapidly and we had
to act urgently to protect the platform's core
592
00:34:20,525 --> 00:34:21,805
payment and infrastructure.
593
00:34:21,965 --> 00:34:25,885
Unfortunately, this meant it was not realistic
to provide creators with advanced notice before
594
00:34:25,885 --> 00:34:26,844
making this change.
595
00:34:26,844 --> 00:34:30,280
We know this is not ideal and we apologize for
the abruptness of this change.
596
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,519
So behind the scenes, one thing I can see from
this statement is that whatever payment
597
00:34:34,519 --> 00:34:38,839
processor is working behind the scenes on this,
whether it's Visa, Mastercard, PayPal, or
598
00:34:38,839 --> 00:34:42,295
someone else, they are working with substantial
leverage.
599
00:34:42,295 --> 00:34:47,974
They are pressuring these platforms to act with
haste regardless of how that might
600
00:34:47,974 --> 00:34:52,454
deleteriously affect the contractual
relationships they have with their own client
601
00:34:52,454 --> 00:34:54,934
base, the people that make content for their
platform.
602
00:34:55,510 --> 00:35:01,910
And that leverage is sufficient enough for both
Steam, the big dog, and itch dot the smaller
603
00:35:01,910 --> 00:35:04,710
dog, to say yes, we'll capitulate to that
request.
604
00:35:04,950 --> 00:35:05,990
And that's a problem.
605
00:35:06,070 --> 00:35:06,390
Right?
606
00:35:06,390 --> 00:35:09,910
When we talk about the power that these
corporations have, we usually think about it as
607
00:35:09,910 --> 00:35:11,465
a consumer facing power.
608
00:35:11,465 --> 00:35:16,824
This is business to business, but it is a power
that is self evidently very substantial and is
609
00:35:16,824 --> 00:35:21,065
driving these platforms to make concessions
that they otherwise do not appear to want to
610
00:35:21,065 --> 00:35:21,305
make.
611
00:35:21,305 --> 00:35:21,625
Right?
612
00:35:21,625 --> 00:35:23,625
Both of the statements from Steam and itch.
613
00:35:24,184 --> 00:35:28,230
Certainly evidence a kind of frustration that
they're having to do this at all.
614
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:29,829
They know this doesn't reflect well on them.
615
00:35:29,829 --> 00:35:34,150
They know this does not help them with the
relationships they have with their content
616
00:35:34,150 --> 00:35:38,630
creators, but they say this is a time this is a
time critical moment.
617
00:35:38,825 --> 00:35:43,385
We are currently conducting a comprehensive
audit of content to ensure we can meet the
618
00:35:43,385 --> 00:35:45,865
requirements of our payment processors.
619
00:35:45,945 --> 00:35:48,905
Pages will remain de indexed as we complete our
review.
620
00:35:48,905 --> 00:35:51,865
Once this review is complete, we will introduce
new compliance measures.
621
00:35:52,219 --> 00:35:56,699
For not safe for work pages, this will include
a new step where creators must confirm that
622
00:35:56,699 --> 00:36:01,179
their content is allowable under the policies
of the respective payment processors linked to
623
00:36:01,179 --> 00:36:02,059
their account.
624
00:36:02,219 --> 00:36:03,579
Now at least the itch.
625
00:36:03,659 --> 00:36:08,635
Says, at least in reading this, that they will
link whatever policies, procedures, standards,
626
00:36:08,635 --> 00:36:12,795
and rules these payment processors are talking
about to the request for confirmation.
627
00:36:12,795 --> 00:36:14,954
Otherwise, you just have to confirm into the
void.
628
00:36:14,954 --> 00:36:18,869
Steam is asking you to confirm into the void
the entire time, saying you promised that what
629
00:36:18,869 --> 00:36:23,349
you uploaded will not, may not violate the
standards and rules put forth by these payment
630
00:36:23,349 --> 00:36:23,750
processors.
631
00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:23,909
No.
632
00:36:23,909 --> 00:36:25,750
We're not gonna tell you what those standards
and rules are.
633
00:36:25,750 --> 00:36:25,989
Yes.
634
00:36:25,989 --> 00:36:28,710
Those standards and rules might change on the
fly behind the scenes.
635
00:36:28,710 --> 00:36:33,105
You still won't know what they are, but you're
gonna promise to us that what you are making
636
00:36:33,265 --> 00:36:36,945
may not violate them, which is almost
impossible as a human being to actually make
637
00:36:36,945 --> 00:36:37,664
that certification.
638
00:36:37,664 --> 00:36:40,065
But if you want access to our platform, you're
gonna make it.
639
00:36:40,065 --> 00:36:43,344
And if there's liability to be affixed
somewhere along the line, you're just gonna
640
00:36:43,344 --> 00:36:44,385
have to be liable for that.
641
00:36:44,385 --> 00:36:45,985
And we're steam and we don't care because we're
big.
642
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,960
We ask for your patience and understanding as
we navigate this challenging period.
643
00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:54,039
I'm sorry we cannot share more at this time as
we are still getting a full understanding of
644
00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:55,320
the situation ourselves.
645
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,440
We will post a follow-up on our blog if the
situation changes.
646
00:36:58,684 --> 00:37:00,045
And that's itch.io.
647
00:37:00,045 --> 00:37:00,284
Right?
648
00:37:00,284 --> 00:37:00,925
This is Steam.
649
00:37:00,925 --> 00:37:01,885
This is itch.
650
00:37:02,125 --> 00:37:07,804
This is the same kind of story happening in
multiple places here, and yet we aren't seeing
651
00:37:07,804 --> 00:37:13,565
the kind of noise that I would expect to see
from video gamers and from video gaming outlets
652
00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:14,980
about this particular story.
653
00:37:14,980 --> 00:37:15,140
Yes.
654
00:37:15,140 --> 00:37:16,260
I've seen IGN articles.
655
00:37:16,260 --> 00:37:20,500
I've seen some other places cover it kind of
superficially, but this is an existential
656
00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:24,980
threat to video gaming if not to all art on all
digital marketplaces.
657
00:37:24,980 --> 00:37:29,785
There is no reasonable place where this kind of
concept can stop.
658
00:37:29,945 --> 00:37:30,265
Right?
659
00:37:30,265 --> 00:37:33,864
If you are going to accede to this on this
particular ground, hey, Visa, Mastercard,
660
00:37:33,864 --> 00:37:38,505
PayPal, whomever doesn't like it, then there is
nothing that stops them from not liking the
661
00:37:38,505 --> 00:37:39,625
next thing tomorrow.
662
00:37:39,785 --> 00:37:42,989
And if you are going to accede every time, then
they're just gonna eat the whole thing.
663
00:37:42,989 --> 00:37:44,030
They're gonna eat the whole platform.
664
00:37:44,030 --> 00:37:47,869
They're gonna eat all art on earth if this is
honestly allowed to continue in this way.
665
00:37:47,869 --> 00:37:51,949
Now, I don't think the platform holders will
allow it to continue till the ends of the
666
00:37:51,949 --> 00:37:57,565
earth, but they have not indicated to me as of
yet that they have any backbone to stop any of
667
00:37:57,565 --> 00:37:59,085
this at present.
668
00:37:59,404 --> 00:38:01,324
Now, what are payment processors?
669
00:38:01,324 --> 00:38:04,284
We need to talk about that to understand what
it is that they are doing and what it is that
670
00:38:04,284 --> 00:38:05,244
they shouldn't be doing.
671
00:38:05,404 --> 00:38:08,364
Payment processors is from a website called the
retail exec.
672
00:38:08,849 --> 00:38:11,890
What they are, how they work, and top tools.
673
00:38:11,890 --> 00:38:15,570
So this is written as if you are a merchant, as
if you're steam.
674
00:38:15,570 --> 00:38:19,570
You are putting together an online e shop of
some kind and they want you to know what it is
675
00:38:19,570 --> 00:38:21,010
a payment processor even does.
676
00:38:21,010 --> 00:38:23,014
And so we're gonna look at it with that eye.
677
00:38:23,494 --> 00:38:28,135
A payment processor is a service that helps
businesses accept and process electronic
678
00:38:28,135 --> 00:38:28,775
payments.
679
00:38:29,014 --> 00:38:33,094
It acts as a conduit, securely transmitting
payment information between the merchants and
680
00:38:33,094 --> 00:38:36,375
customers banks to complete the transaction
efficiently.
681
00:38:37,119 --> 00:38:40,719
The payment gateway captures, verifies,
encrypts your customer's payment information
682
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,280
before transmitting it to the payment
processor.
683
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,960
It bridges the physical gap between your online
business and your customers, fulfilling the
684
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,519
role of a point of sale system in an in store
setting.
685
00:38:49,864 --> 00:38:52,744
Upon receipt, the payment processor then takes
over.
686
00:38:52,824 --> 00:38:55,864
It sends the encrypted data to the financial
institution for approval.
687
00:38:56,585 --> 00:39:00,184
Then it shuttles the funds safely from your
customer's bank or credit card company to your
688
00:39:00,184 --> 00:39:01,065
merchant account.
689
00:39:01,464 --> 00:39:05,065
However, since providers like Stripe and PayPal
can serve as both the payment gateway and
690
00:39:05,065 --> 00:39:08,820
payment processor, things can seem a bit
complicated to the average e commerce manager
691
00:39:08,820 --> 00:39:13,619
and business owner or the standard average
person that's looking at these things from
692
00:39:13,619 --> 00:39:14,260
afar.
693
00:39:14,339 --> 00:39:17,619
To help you avoid the confusion, let's break
down how they're different and they have a nice
694
00:39:17,619 --> 00:39:18,179
table here.
695
00:39:19,835 --> 00:39:23,034
I've given you a quick rundown of how payment
processor work, but in this section we're going
696
00:39:23,034 --> 00:39:23,994
to go deeper.
697
00:39:24,154 --> 00:39:26,714
So before we dive into the process, let's take
a look at definitions.
698
00:39:26,714 --> 00:39:29,994
The cardholder, your customer who initiates the
transaction.
699
00:39:29,994 --> 00:39:32,154
For us here in virtual reality, that's you and
me.
700
00:39:32,154 --> 00:39:33,994
The people with the Visa or the Mastercard.
701
00:39:34,074 --> 00:39:38,030
The merchant, the seller who receives the
payment, Steam, itch.io.
702
00:39:38,110 --> 00:39:39,230
Payment gateway.
703
00:39:39,230 --> 00:39:41,710
In the case of Steam and itch.io, I believe
itch.
704
00:39:41,789 --> 00:39:43,630
I don't think I bought anything from them in
the past.
705
00:39:43,630 --> 00:39:45,789
This is where you're inputting your information
into their website.
706
00:39:45,789 --> 00:39:48,430
They've created a gateway that is going to
encrypt that information.
707
00:39:48,984 --> 00:39:52,664
Technology that securely transmits payment
information from the customer to the payment
708
00:39:52,664 --> 00:39:53,304
processor.
709
00:39:53,304 --> 00:39:56,984
So you put all that in, it gets sent over to
the payment processor, and the payment
710
00:39:56,984 --> 00:40:00,585
processor is the entity that handles the
transaction data between the merchant and
711
00:40:00,585 --> 00:40:01,385
financial institutions.
712
00:40:01,670 --> 00:40:06,469
It then goes and talks to your bank or the bank
that issued the credit card, and then it gets
713
00:40:06,469 --> 00:40:09,030
authorization to send the money over to the
merchant's bank.
714
00:40:09,030 --> 00:40:12,309
The merchant bank authorizes the acceptance of
the money, etcetera, etcetera.
715
00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:16,775
Step by step payment processing flow, customer
initiates payment, payment gateway encrypts the
716
00:40:16,775 --> 00:40:20,054
data, payment gateway authenticates the
payment, payment processor forwards to the
717
00:40:20,054 --> 00:40:23,734
acquiring bank, acquiring bank communicates
with the card networks, card networks routes to
718
00:40:23,734 --> 00:40:27,174
issuing bank, issuing bank authorized the
transaction, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
719
00:40:27,174 --> 00:40:32,030
All this happens in minutes, if if not less
when you hit that button that says you want to
720
00:40:32,030 --> 00:40:32,510
buy something.
721
00:40:32,510 --> 00:40:37,309
In fact, it's to the benefit of the merchant to
get that process going as fast as possible.
722
00:40:37,309 --> 00:40:40,989
And what these payment processors are supposed
to do is be able to do that quickly,
723
00:40:41,405 --> 00:40:45,005
efficiently, and validly to make sure money
isn't changing hands in a way that isn't
724
00:40:45,005 --> 00:40:49,085
authorized, by the various parties as part of
this deal flow.
725
00:40:49,405 --> 00:40:53,164
But what they aren't supposed to do is really
consider what it is this money is being spent
726
00:40:53,164 --> 00:40:53,644
to buy.
727
00:40:53,644 --> 00:40:57,659
You don't see any indication here of why the
money is changing hands.
728
00:40:57,659 --> 00:41:01,500
Essentially, you have a credit card that's
issued by JPMorgan Chase, you are saying, okay.
729
00:41:01,500 --> 00:41:07,260
I want to send $60 to this particular merchant
and that's all you get to know about it.
730
00:41:07,260 --> 00:41:12,614
Move that $60 that I earned doing my job and
otherwise doing the things that I provide value
731
00:41:12,614 --> 00:41:14,775
to society for and you just move it.
732
00:41:14,775 --> 00:41:17,894
That's what you are providing value for and you
don't ask any questions.
733
00:41:17,894 --> 00:41:23,655
This is most commonly thought of as a kind of
common carrier type function.
734
00:41:23,655 --> 00:41:26,389
If you aren't familiar with phrase common
carrier, we're gonna get to that in just a
735
00:41:26,389 --> 00:41:26,869
minute.
736
00:41:27,349 --> 00:41:31,269
But suffice it to say, this is an
infrastructure type function.
737
00:41:31,269 --> 00:41:33,109
This is a utility type function.
738
00:41:33,429 --> 00:41:35,510
We need to move money from bank to bank.
739
00:41:35,510 --> 00:41:39,525
We have a very regulated and enormously
complicated industry that has the money in
740
00:41:39,525 --> 00:41:43,045
these various institutions and so we need
somebody to help facilitate those moves.
741
00:41:43,045 --> 00:41:47,204
And you aren't otherwise supposed to be in the
business of judging what it is that that
742
00:41:47,204 --> 00:41:48,804
movement is happening for.
743
00:41:48,964 --> 00:41:55,889
And yet Visa, Mastercard, PayPal, other payment
processors say, well, we have some thoughts
744
00:41:55,889 --> 00:42:01,090
about what you should be spending your money on
and well, I have some thoughts about what they
745
00:42:01,090 --> 00:42:02,849
are thinking on that particular score.
746
00:42:02,849 --> 00:42:07,329
That's what a payment processor is and yet
because of those regulations in the financial
747
00:42:07,329 --> 00:42:12,204
industry, they have a lot of interest in a
bunch of other stuff because in The United
748
00:42:12,204 --> 00:42:17,405
States at least, we have a number of rules
about anti money laundering and other
749
00:42:17,405 --> 00:42:23,280
requirements of banks, financial institutions,
and money movers that have to go and look deep
750
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,320
into whether or not money is moving for some
kind of illegal purpose.
751
00:42:26,559 --> 00:42:26,800
Right?
752
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,880
So they don't wanna have liability to
government or otherwise for the money being
753
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,079
used in some form or fashion that would run
afoul of these regulations.
754
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:40,335
And so they can take a deeper interest really
by law in what this money is being used for,
755
00:42:40,414 --> 00:42:47,135
and that has led to things like this where
PayPal, Stripe, Visa, Mastercard, other payment
756
00:42:47,135 --> 00:42:51,089
processors have their own rules about what it
is you can and can't spend your money on.
757
00:42:51,089 --> 00:42:55,089
It's one of the reasons we've seen issues with
places like Patreon before, and please do
758
00:42:55,089 --> 00:42:58,690
support the channel through Patreon if you
still can by the time this video is actually
759
00:42:58,690 --> 00:42:59,409
uploaded.
760
00:42:59,730 --> 00:43:05,545
But we have seen this in the past that these
payment processors have decided that their
761
00:43:05,545 --> 00:43:09,864
ability to make sure that things aren't
illegal, that their money is being spent on
762
00:43:09,864 --> 00:43:14,664
means that they have to take a more directed
path to making sure that whatever the merchant
763
00:43:14,664 --> 00:43:17,704
is selling doesn't have any illegal components
within it.
764
00:43:17,704 --> 00:43:22,599
And that's kind of a a hook to hang their hat
on as I used the phrase in the past, but it
765
00:43:22,599 --> 00:43:27,160
really doesn't mean what these payment
processors seem to think that it means, which
766
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,760
is that they should put their nose into
everything anybody anywhere in the world wants
767
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:31,559
to do with their money.
768
00:43:31,695 --> 00:43:35,535
That's really not what they're designed for and
it's really not any effective way for this to
769
00:43:35,535 --> 00:43:36,255
all operate.
770
00:43:36,255 --> 00:43:40,894
Now I did pull up one place where I actually
saw somebody talking about what these payment
771
00:43:40,894 --> 00:43:42,974
processors were actually acting asking for.
772
00:43:42,974 --> 00:43:46,815
This is a website called sieve.itai, I think.
773
00:43:47,929 --> 00:43:54,409
And so this is a blog post that talks about
payment processors saying that you shouldn't
774
00:43:54,409 --> 00:43:55,369
show incest.
775
00:43:55,369 --> 00:43:58,730
We knew that was a flag point based on
steveanditch.io.
776
00:43:58,730 --> 00:44:04,275
Self harm, content that promotes hate, bodily
excretions, etcetera etcetera, which somebody
777
00:44:04,275 --> 00:44:09,235
in the text that I saw on this particular story
rightly brings up as Death Stranding.
778
00:44:09,315 --> 00:44:11,235
Death Stranding, one of the best games of the
year.
779
00:44:11,315 --> 00:44:13,394
Death Stranding two, one of the best games of
the year.
780
00:44:13,474 --> 00:44:17,769
Prominently has a urination feature because
you're out there in the wild and one of the
781
00:44:17,769 --> 00:44:21,930
things you can do is, urinate in order to
relieve yourself out there.
782
00:44:21,930 --> 00:44:24,809
And it's not a button I hit very often, but it
is a function in the game.
783
00:44:24,809 --> 00:44:29,530
Is this the kind of thing, that the payment
processors would say is not allowed?
784
00:44:29,855 --> 00:44:34,255
Certainly, if somebody were so inclined to push
the issue with the payment processors, they
785
00:44:34,255 --> 00:44:35,695
might have some success there.
786
00:44:35,775 --> 00:44:38,815
And you might get an article like the one we
saw in Gamefile that talks about this
787
00:44:38,815 --> 00:44:40,734
critically acclaimed game being removed.
788
00:44:40,815 --> 00:44:43,295
But I just want to reiterate that it's not
about the acclaim.
789
00:44:43,295 --> 00:44:48,289
It's not about the artistic validity that
somebody can appoint to something that says it
790
00:44:48,289 --> 00:44:51,329
should be allowed for people to engage in.
791
00:44:51,490 --> 00:44:55,170
It is the fact that it's happening at all that
is the problem in this particular story.
792
00:44:55,170 --> 00:44:59,305
But that leads us to talking about what really
needs to be talked about which is collective
793
00:44:59,305 --> 00:44:59,785
shout.
794
00:44:59,785 --> 00:45:05,625
Or as PC Gamer once again puts it, Australian
anti porn group claims responsibility for
795
00:45:05,625 --> 00:45:10,985
Steam's new censorship rules in victory
against, quote, porn sick brain rotted Peyto
796
00:45:10,985 --> 00:45:15,409
gamer fetishists, end quote, and things only
get weirder from there.
797
00:45:18,050 --> 00:45:21,889
This was first reported by Waypoint, which has
since pulled its two articles on the subject
798
00:45:21,889 --> 00:45:23,010
without explanation.
799
00:45:23,089 --> 00:45:27,335
The article's author, Anna Valens, has alleged
that Vice's parent company Savage Ventures
800
00:45:27,335 --> 00:45:32,054
removed the articles due to concerns over their
controversial content rather than any error in
801
00:45:32,054 --> 00:45:32,695
the reporting.
802
00:45:32,695 --> 00:45:36,934
And this is part of that whole kind of slippery
slope discussion, which is to say Collective
803
00:45:36,934 --> 00:45:42,809
Shout as an organization seems to be very
effective at using backroom discussions to
804
00:45:42,809 --> 00:45:46,170
indicate that they're gonna cause some major
problems for whoever speaks negatively about
805
00:45:46,170 --> 00:45:50,090
them or whoever doesn't abide by what it is
that they want to see happen such as these
806
00:45:50,090 --> 00:45:50,890
payment processors.
807
00:45:51,315 --> 00:45:54,994
Collective Shout began in 02/2009, reports PC
Gamer here.
808
00:45:54,994 --> 00:46:01,155
Co founded in self by self described pro life
feminist, Melinda Tankard Reist.
809
00:46:01,155 --> 00:46:05,099
Collective Shout describes itself as a
grassroots campaigning movement against the
810
00:46:05,099 --> 00:46:09,099
objectification of women and sexualization of
girls in media, advertising, and popular
811
00:46:09,099 --> 00:46:09,660
culture.
812
00:46:09,740 --> 00:46:15,740
To date, it has been involved in an
unsuccessful effort to ban Snoop Dogg and
813
00:46:15,740 --> 00:46:20,055
Eminem from Australia, a successful 2015
campaign to prevent Tyler the Creator from
814
00:46:20,055 --> 00:46:24,215
touring Australia, we saw that reference
before, a successful 2015 campaign to pressure
815
00:46:24,215 --> 00:46:28,535
Target and Kmart to stop selling Grand Theft
Auto five in Australia, a petition to ban the
816
00:46:28,535 --> 00:46:32,090
game No Mercy from sale, which ultimately led
to the developers pulling it from Steam and
817
00:46:32,090 --> 00:46:32,809
itch.io.
818
00:46:32,809 --> 00:46:34,410
We saw that in the itch.i0 statement.
819
00:46:34,489 --> 00:46:38,570
An unsuccessful petition to ban Detroit Become
Human from sale in Australia.
820
00:46:38,570 --> 00:46:42,090
And it's unclear just from this summary of the
campaigns exactly what issue they had with
821
00:46:42,090 --> 00:46:46,925
each, although we can imagine based on their
specific issue with sexualization and
822
00:46:46,925 --> 00:46:49,405
objectification of women and young and young
girls.
823
00:46:49,805 --> 00:46:54,525
And while that is something that I think a lot
of people can get behind as a concept, I
824
00:46:54,525 --> 00:46:58,639
personally am not a big fan of what I would
describe as the coarsening of culture in
825
00:46:58,639 --> 00:46:59,599
various degrees.
826
00:46:59,839 --> 00:47:05,440
I also don't think that I am the right arbiter
of what you or anyone else should be allowed to
827
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,799
view, read, play, or what have you.
828
00:47:08,799 --> 00:47:13,224
And so when you look at this, you can agree
with what they're going for if you are so
829
00:47:13,224 --> 00:47:18,505
inclined and still disagree with the methods
they use to try to get it and with not allowing
830
00:47:18,505 --> 00:47:25,390
others to otherwise have access to art or media
that you wouldn't otherwise want to have access
831
00:47:25,390 --> 00:47:26,190
to yourself.
832
00:47:26,190 --> 00:47:29,550
The other thing I would point out in this
particular paragraph is I do note the
833
00:47:29,550 --> 00:47:33,949
description here of pro life feminist is kind
of a strange one, and it's a fight that you see
834
00:47:33,949 --> 00:47:38,694
online right now as to whether this group, has
been discussed a lot as part of the story, is
835
00:47:38,694 --> 00:47:41,655
in fact a right leaning or left leaning group.
836
00:47:41,655 --> 00:47:42,775
I think that's a red herring.
837
00:47:42,775 --> 00:47:45,014
I think that's a fairly pointless conversation
to have.
838
00:47:45,014 --> 00:47:49,335
I think it's designed for outrage bait online
and in social media circles.
839
00:47:49,414 --> 00:47:52,295
The point here is not that they are right
leaning or left leaning.
840
00:47:52,295 --> 00:47:56,609
They certainly have certain right leaning
characteristics that we might associate with
841
00:47:56,609 --> 00:48:01,489
things like the Christian right back in the
eighties or nineties and trying to squash rap
842
00:48:01,489 --> 00:48:03,889
music and various other things that it looks
like that.
843
00:48:03,889 --> 00:48:07,969
They also have certain characteristics that
they share with things like Anita Sarkeesian
844
00:48:07,969 --> 00:48:12,204
and her critiques of sexualization in video
games and what should and shouldn't be
845
00:48:12,204 --> 00:48:14,445
happening in video games as an industry.
846
00:48:14,605 --> 00:48:18,364
And so there are right leaning and left leaning
characteristics of this particular group and
847
00:48:18,364 --> 00:48:19,805
what they're trying to accomplish here.
848
00:48:19,885 --> 00:48:21,565
It's not really about that in my mind.
849
00:48:21,565 --> 00:48:23,965
It's about authoritarianism versus freedom.
850
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:28,960
It's about tyranny, in this case tyranny of the
minority of another country in all likelihood
851
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:34,320
if you're not listening to this or watching
this from Australia, against what the majority,
852
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:40,105
what society has deemed to be allowable, what
is legal in the the way that society functions.
853
00:48:40,105 --> 00:48:43,944
And so this is authoritarians versus freedom,
not right versus left.
854
00:48:43,944 --> 00:48:45,464
To me, you can disagree with that.
855
00:48:45,464 --> 00:48:47,224
Again, please leave all the comments you have
to.
856
00:48:47,224 --> 00:48:51,380
Anything I say in this video, YouTube is
definitely gonna need to know that this is not
857
00:48:51,380 --> 00:48:54,980
just rage bait, that this is not just outrage,
and that it shouldn't just shadow ban this
858
00:48:54,980 --> 00:48:56,340
video for all time.
859
00:48:56,340 --> 00:49:00,099
That this is an important conversation that
needs to be had with more and more people, not
860
00:49:00,099 --> 00:49:01,380
fewer and fewer people.
861
00:49:02,099 --> 00:49:07,025
On July 7, Collective Shout shared an update to
its nomercychange.org campaign, calling on
862
00:49:07,025 --> 00:49:11,905
supports to email payment processors to demand
that they cut ties with Steam and itch.i0 over
863
00:49:11,905 --> 00:49:14,305
hundreds of rape, incest, and child abuse
games.
864
00:49:14,305 --> 00:49:17,344
This was followed by an open letter from
Collective Shout asking that they immediately
865
00:49:17,344 --> 00:49:21,585
cease processing payments on Steam and itch.i0
and any other platforms hosting similar games.
866
00:49:22,610 --> 00:49:26,289
Collective Shout later wrote that a 67
individuals called and emailed payment
867
00:49:26,289 --> 00:49:27,890
processors as part of the campaign.
868
00:49:28,130 --> 00:49:30,769
Collective Shout claimed victory the same day.
869
00:49:30,849 --> 00:49:34,130
Since we launched our campaign calling on
payment processors to stop facilitating
870
00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:38,144
payments for rape, incest, sexual torture, and
child abuse themed games on Steam, They've
871
00:49:38,144 --> 00:49:43,265
added a new rule to their policies plus removed
hundreds of these games, the group wrote on
872
00:49:43,265 --> 00:49:43,825
Twitter.
873
00:49:43,905 --> 00:49:48,945
And again, I'm entirely in favor of people
going out there and advocating for what change
874
00:49:48,945 --> 00:49:52,519
they wanna see in the world or however you
wanna frame this particular concept.
875
00:49:52,519 --> 00:49:58,440
What I am not in favor of is these groups
deciding for me what it is that I'm allowed to
876
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,719
see, what it is that I'm allowed to read, or
otherwise enjoy.
877
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,474
In follow-up tweets, Collective Shout wrote
that it was experiencing harassment from
878
00:50:05,474 --> 00:50:09,635
misogynistic gamers over the campaign, and that
there remain 82 games tagged with rape and
879
00:50:09,635 --> 00:50:12,194
incest the group will continue campaigning to
have taken down.
880
00:50:12,194 --> 00:50:15,474
This is of a claimed 500 games that the group
took issue with.
881
00:50:16,409 --> 00:50:19,769
Those numbers are gonna end up though, and they
count what games have been removed and what
882
00:50:19,769 --> 00:50:22,489
games seem to still be there on Steam as part
of the story.
883
00:50:22,730 --> 00:50:28,650
And then they quote Collective Shout cofounder
Melissa Melinda Tankard Reyes, all these porn
884
00:50:28,650 --> 00:50:32,635
sick brain rotted Peyto gamer fetishists so
desperate to get their hands on Rape My Little
885
00:50:32,635 --> 00:50:36,234
Sister incest games, they're now exchanging
clues on how to find them so that they don't
886
00:50:36,234 --> 00:50:37,514
all die overnight.
887
00:50:37,755 --> 00:50:42,074
Later that day, she shared a long tweet thread
further claiming victory with Steam's decision.
888
00:50:42,074 --> 00:50:46,840
And again, I don't know that there's actually
any evidence that this group is forcing the
889
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,360
hand of these payment processors other than the
fact that we can look at what campaigns they've
890
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:55,079
tried to run and the fact that these things
have in fact been removed in the past.
891
00:50:55,079 --> 00:51:00,114
But this is the kind of thing that you see
where they are claiming that they did this that
892
00:51:00,114 --> 00:51:05,235
looks a lot to me like what we might otherwise
describe in more serious circumstances to
893
00:51:05,235 --> 00:51:06,594
terrorist activity.
894
00:51:06,594 --> 00:51:06,835
Right?
895
00:51:06,835 --> 00:51:09,075
And I don't use that word lightly on this.
896
00:51:09,075 --> 00:51:14,619
This is the action of a group that is trying to
force bigger parties, governments or what have
897
00:51:14,619 --> 00:51:18,780
you, in this case payment processors to do
something and then is claiming that they got
898
00:51:18,780 --> 00:51:24,619
the bigger group to do something after the fact
with threats of various kinds, in this case
899
00:51:24,619 --> 00:51:31,005
financial, that they that these bigger groups
appear to believe they could otherwise fulfill
900
00:51:31,085 --> 00:51:31,885
against them.
901
00:51:31,885 --> 00:51:33,885
The articles remain available on the way back
machine.
902
00:51:33,885 --> 00:51:38,445
I fact checked every article's content, and
then they start talking about the removals over
903
00:51:38,445 --> 00:51:40,684
on Waypoint as part of this discussion.
904
00:51:40,684 --> 00:51:42,960
But let's talk about Collective Shout overall.
905
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,559
You can see from their website, they have a
number of campaigns they are arguing against.
906
00:51:46,559 --> 00:51:54,160
They've got one here, ban porn on x, formerly
Twitter, kids exposed, tell these retailers to
907
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,640
bin the bunny, which appears to be against the
Playboy magazine.
908
00:51:56,414 --> 00:51:56,974
Magazine.
909
00:51:57,855 --> 00:52:00,815
And those are the main campaigns on their their
thread list here.
910
00:52:00,815 --> 00:52:02,494
You can see a number of other articles.
911
00:52:02,574 --> 00:52:06,735
They do appear to do what they say that they're
going to do insofar as being against sexual
912
00:52:06,735 --> 00:52:09,135
sexualization and objectification of women.
913
00:52:09,619 --> 00:52:13,380
Collective Shout is a grassroots campaign
described by them in their about page against
914
00:52:13,380 --> 00:52:16,420
the objectification of women and the
sexualization of girls.
915
00:52:16,500 --> 00:52:19,940
Since our launch launch in 2010, we've achieved
many wins.
916
00:52:20,019 --> 00:52:23,860
Billboards objectifying women pulled down,
sexualized children's clothing withdrawn from
917
00:52:23,860 --> 00:52:28,414
sale, sexually violent games banned, Andrew
Tate's pimping courses removed from Spotify,
918
00:52:28,414 --> 00:52:32,574
and an age verification trial underway to help
protect kids from exposure to porn.
919
00:52:32,574 --> 00:52:38,799
Now whether or not you agree with these
particular activities, these campaigns, the
920
00:52:38,799 --> 00:52:42,159
issue here is not that their policy is bad.
921
00:52:42,159 --> 00:52:43,679
You might agree with it entirely.
922
00:52:43,679 --> 00:52:48,880
The issue is that they're trying to impose
their policy on, in this case, the rest of the
923
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:53,805
world without the rest of the world's
democratic people's representatives say so.
924
00:52:53,885 --> 00:52:54,125
Right?
925
00:52:54,125 --> 00:52:58,764
The US has determined what is illegal and what
is not illegal as part of art and content and
926
00:52:58,764 --> 00:52:59,405
all these various things.
927
00:52:59,405 --> 00:53:03,085
We have a very robust first amendment freedom
of expression protection here in The United
928
00:53:03,085 --> 00:53:03,644
States.
929
00:53:03,724 --> 00:53:09,190
We have not otherwise acceded to a small
grassroots campaigns movement in Australia
930
00:53:09,190 --> 00:53:13,030
dictating what it is that we are and are not
allowed to see.
931
00:53:13,190 --> 00:53:14,789
And yet, here we are.
932
00:53:14,789 --> 00:53:17,030
Thanks to Visa, Mastercard, or other payment
processors.
933
00:53:18,394 --> 00:53:22,795
We wanna see a world free of sexploitation,
says their vision, where the objectification of
934
00:53:22,795 --> 00:53:25,515
women and sexualization of girls is
unthinkable.
935
00:53:25,594 --> 00:53:30,234
I actually think in certain parts that's a
that's a laudable goal is to say, hey, I'm not
936
00:53:30,234 --> 00:53:32,074
for objectification of basically anyone.
937
00:53:32,074 --> 00:53:36,210
I believe entirely in the human spirit, and I
believe it so much that I wanna see every human
938
00:53:36,210 --> 00:53:40,130
be allowed to experience their own freedom of
expression and the freedom of expression of
939
00:53:40,130 --> 00:53:42,210
other human beings, and yet here we are.
940
00:53:42,610 --> 00:53:43,010
Okay.
941
00:53:43,010 --> 00:53:44,610
So that's their vision statement.
942
00:53:44,610 --> 00:53:48,325
You can read all as much as you want about them
on this particular page.
943
00:53:48,325 --> 00:53:50,565
Then we get to some more telling quotes.
944
00:53:50,644 --> 00:53:53,445
If women choose to participate and get paid,
what's the problem?
945
00:53:53,445 --> 00:53:55,125
And this is them interviewing themselves.
946
00:53:55,285 --> 00:53:59,204
Focusing on the choices of individual women
obscures the power dynamics behind exploitation
947
00:53:59,204 --> 00:54:01,309
industries and those who stand to profit from
them.
948
00:54:01,309 --> 00:54:04,190
Now understand, remember, we're talking about
video games here as part of this video.
949
00:54:04,190 --> 00:54:08,750
We aren't actually talking about actual women
being exploited in this context unless you're
950
00:54:08,750 --> 00:54:11,309
talking about voice actors in some of these
games, I presume.
951
00:54:11,710 --> 00:54:15,315
One of our approach is to challenge the toxic
culture rather than focusing on the so called
952
00:54:15,315 --> 00:54:16,994
choices of individual women.
953
00:54:16,994 --> 00:54:18,434
So understand what that paragraph says.
954
00:54:18,434 --> 00:54:18,594
Right?
955
00:54:18,594 --> 00:54:21,554
This group that we're talking about here is one
that says, yeah.
956
00:54:21,554 --> 00:54:21,875
Okay.
957
00:54:21,875 --> 00:54:24,434
So certain people are consenting to certain
things, but you know what?
958
00:54:24,434 --> 00:54:28,969
The entire culture is so polluted, is so gone
that they don't even know what they're
959
00:54:28,969 --> 00:54:29,690
consenting to.
960
00:54:29,690 --> 00:54:32,569
In this case, they're talking about women, but
they'd also probably say the same answer with
961
00:54:32,569 --> 00:54:33,690
respect to consumers.
962
00:54:33,769 --> 00:54:34,010
Right?
963
00:54:34,010 --> 00:54:34,650
You say, okay.
964
00:54:34,650 --> 00:54:39,050
Well, who are you to tell that guy over there
that he's not allowed to buy that game,
965
00:54:39,050 --> 00:54:42,730
especially when we're talking about digital art
of these things and not actual women being in
966
00:54:42,809 --> 00:54:44,385
all involved in process.
967
00:54:44,625 --> 00:54:46,304
And they say, well, yes.
968
00:54:46,304 --> 00:54:46,625
Okay.
969
00:54:46,625 --> 00:54:47,184
That's fine.
970
00:54:47,184 --> 00:54:52,385
People can make choices, but they're not really
making choices here because the power dynamics
971
00:54:52,385 --> 00:54:57,425
are all skewed and the toxic culture has ruined
anybody's ability to actually consent to any of
972
00:54:57,425 --> 00:54:57,585
this.
973
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:02,359
And so we're going to change that for you here
from Australia with the power of the payment
974
00:55:02,359 --> 00:55:03,880
processors at our back.
975
00:55:04,199 --> 00:55:04,760
They continue.
976
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,400
They have another answer here that I wanted to
highlight.
977
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:09,960
Why are you against child sex abuse dolls?
978
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:11,480
And I was only able to put this by context.
979
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:18,894
It appears that there are dolls that they some
people use to allow men to abuse them at some
980
00:55:18,894 --> 00:55:19,614
kind of concept.
981
00:55:19,614 --> 00:55:22,255
I don't really understand this particular
issue, so apologies there.
982
00:55:22,255 --> 00:55:25,295
If you've got more to enlighten me with, leave
it in the comments.
983
00:55:25,295 --> 00:55:27,535
Don't be too explicit or YouTube will hate that
too.
984
00:55:27,934 --> 00:55:31,119
But they say, why aren't you against why are
you against these things?
985
00:55:31,119 --> 00:55:34,160
Isn't it better that predators use these than
sexually abuse real children?
986
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,440
And their answer, in Australia, this material
is illegal.
987
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:38,400
That's fine.
988
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:42,494
Go convince your Australian representatives to
make things illegal that you don't like and
989
00:55:42,494 --> 00:55:44,414
have them be illegal in Australia.
990
00:55:44,494 --> 00:55:49,054
I'm totally okay with everybody in their own
jurisdiction running their own jurisdiction.
991
00:55:49,054 --> 00:55:52,574
That's what western democracy means, in large
part.
992
00:55:52,574 --> 00:55:54,175
But that doesn't mean that you say, okay.
993
00:55:54,175 --> 00:55:55,614
In Australia, this material is illegal.
994
00:55:55,829 --> 00:55:58,869
The Commonwealth criminal code prohibits the
sale, reproduction, possession, and
995
00:55:58,869 --> 00:56:02,710
distribution of offensive and abusive material
that depicts a person or is a representation of
996
00:56:02,710 --> 00:56:05,030
a person who is or appears to be 18.
997
00:56:05,590 --> 00:56:05,910
Okay.
998
00:56:05,910 --> 00:56:07,349
That's that's fine still.
999
00:56:07,349 --> 00:56:10,309
Although, again, it sounds like you're the ones
making the determination that something is
1000
00:56:10,309 --> 00:56:10,789
illegal here.
1001
00:56:11,195 --> 00:56:15,914
While some people defend the use of these, as
victimless, these products serve to normalize
1002
00:56:15,914 --> 00:56:19,034
and legitimize men's sexual use and abuse of
children.
1003
00:56:19,034 --> 00:56:21,994
That is a perfectly fine position to have.
1004
00:56:21,994 --> 00:56:23,594
That's a policy position to have.
1005
00:56:23,594 --> 00:56:27,579
That's what you should be convincing your
representatives and the people around you of if
1006
00:56:27,579 --> 00:56:28,860
it is important to you.
1007
00:56:29,099 --> 00:56:34,460
As the United Nations special, reporter on the
sale on sexual exploitation of children notes,
1008
00:56:34,460 --> 00:56:37,660
this material may encourage potential offenders
and increase the disparity of the abuse.
1009
00:56:37,784 --> 00:56:41,065
The objectification of children comforts
offenders in their actions.
1010
00:56:41,304 --> 00:56:45,545
A 2019 report by the Australian Institute of
Criminology concluded not only that there was
1011
00:56:45,545 --> 00:56:49,144
no evidence child sex abuse dolls prevented
abuse, but that they could increase the risk of
1012
00:56:49,144 --> 00:56:53,599
child sexual abuse by desensitizing users,
bridging the gap between fantasy and reality,
1013
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:55,119
and can be used to groom children.
1014
00:56:55,119 --> 00:56:57,040
Folks, that's a policy argument.
1015
00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:57,440
Right?
1016
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,640
We're used to seeing these kinds of things, and
you can agree with that side of the policy
1017
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:02,400
argument, or you can disagree with it entirely.
1018
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:04,704
That's what the democratic process is about.
1019
00:57:04,704 --> 00:57:09,264
The process of convincing your fellow citizens
in whatever jurisdiction you're located in that
1020
00:57:09,264 --> 00:57:13,824
you are right about issue x and they're wrong
about that issue and putting a law together
1021
00:57:13,824 --> 00:57:18,269
that makes sure that society represents what it
is that you think is the right way for society
1022
00:57:18,269 --> 00:57:19,070
go to go.
1023
00:57:19,070 --> 00:57:19,869
That's democracy.
1024
00:57:19,869 --> 00:57:20,829
That's what it means.
1025
00:57:20,989 --> 00:57:21,789
This is not that.
1026
00:57:21,789 --> 00:57:24,910
This is having a policy prescription saying
this is what we think.
1027
00:57:24,910 --> 00:57:26,430
We've got these reports to back us up.
1028
00:57:26,430 --> 00:57:28,510
I guarantee you that there are reports that say
the opposite.
1029
00:57:28,510 --> 00:57:29,390
That's how reports work.
1030
00:57:29,724 --> 00:57:33,244
We've got these reports that back us up, and so
we're gonna use that to back up our particular
1031
00:57:33,244 --> 00:57:33,885
initiatives.
1032
00:57:33,885 --> 00:57:37,964
The issue here is not so much with them
advocating for policy change.
1033
00:57:37,964 --> 00:57:43,804
The issue is their methods of advocating for
policy change by using the cudgel of what is
1034
00:57:43,804 --> 00:57:48,019
essentially an essential service, an
infrastructural component of the way digital
1035
00:57:48,019 --> 00:57:52,820
marketplace works in 2025 to make sure that
other people, not just in Australia but around
1036
00:57:52,820 --> 00:57:56,660
the world can't experience what they don't want
them to be experiencing.
1037
00:57:56,900 --> 00:57:58,420
And that's the kind of answer that they give.
1038
00:57:58,635 --> 00:58:02,394
I obviously have my own issues with this
particular group and their methodology, but I
1039
00:58:02,394 --> 00:58:06,554
can still sit here and say, honestly, their
their concept wanting to be against
1040
00:58:06,554 --> 00:58:10,315
objectification and sexualization of young
children is something that I can generally get
1041
00:58:10,315 --> 00:58:10,554
behind.
1042
00:58:10,889 --> 00:58:15,210
Convince me and convince our representatives
that whatever precepts you would put in the law
1043
00:58:15,210 --> 00:58:19,529
for these kinds of issues should go into the
law, and I'd be in favor of going through that
1044
00:58:19,529 --> 00:58:20,010
process.
1045
00:58:20,010 --> 00:58:21,289
But that's how democracy works.
1046
00:58:21,289 --> 00:58:24,969
It doesn't work this way where you get Visa and
Mastercard to wield the weapons of the
1047
00:58:24,969 --> 00:58:27,215
financial system at your disposal.
1048
00:58:27,695 --> 00:58:32,015
The letter is directed to PayPal, Mastercard,
Visa, Paysafe Limited, Discover, and the Japan
1049
00:58:32,015 --> 00:58:32,894
Credit Bureau.
1050
00:58:32,894 --> 00:58:36,815
It follows our investigation which uncovered
500 games featuring violent sexual torture of
1051
00:58:36,815 --> 00:58:40,849
women and children, including incest related
abuse involving family on the stream and
1052
00:58:40,849 --> 00:58:42,449
itch.io gaming platforms.
1053
00:58:42,449 --> 00:58:45,170
And again, their investigation is their own
determination.
1054
00:58:45,329 --> 00:58:49,489
They say these are the things that we find
violative of our mental say so.
1055
00:58:49,489 --> 00:58:53,984
And yes, right now, I think more people than
not are going to agree with there being
1056
00:58:53,984 --> 00:58:58,545
something wrong fundamentally about media that
depicts violent sexual torture of women and
1057
00:58:58,545 --> 00:59:02,784
children, including incest related abuse
involving family members, but that's where this
1058
00:59:02,784 --> 00:59:03,905
kind of stuff starts.
1059
00:59:04,144 --> 00:59:08,079
You saw the earlier article talk about
campaigns against Grand Theft Auto.
1060
00:59:08,079 --> 00:59:11,840
You saw the article talk about campaigns
against the game Detroit Become Human.
1061
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:13,519
It doesn't end right here.
1062
00:59:13,519 --> 00:59:18,800
It continues going until everything on Earth
either complies with what they think should be
1063
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:23,105
allowed for you and I to ingest as media or it
doesn't and is banned.
1064
00:59:23,264 --> 00:59:27,585
Collective shout had earlier forced the removal
of No Mercy, a violent sexually explicit video
1065
00:59:27,585 --> 00:59:31,025
game that allowed users to role play as a
character who rapes and tortures women from the
1066
00:59:31,025 --> 00:59:34,625
steam platform following a viral global
campaign, which attracted over 70,000
1067
00:59:34,625 --> 00:59:36,144
signatures and international media.
1068
00:59:36,469 --> 00:59:41,349
70,000 signatures is no small number, but it
also is a significant number for the amount of
1069
00:59:41,349 --> 00:59:44,309
people that play games on Steam.
1070
00:59:44,309 --> 00:59:48,549
So we are again talking about the tyranny of
the minority and not even the tyranny of the
1071
00:59:48,549 --> 00:59:52,630
major majority, which is a phrase you might
hear me refer to when we talk about government
1072
00:59:52,125 --> 00:59:53,005
action in general.
1073
00:59:53,164 --> 00:59:57,405
Now they sent this to PayPal, Mastercard, Visa,
PaySafe Limited, Discover, Japan Credit Bureau.
1074
00:59:57,405 --> 01:00:02,125
One interesting thing of this story is that we
don't actually know which payment processors
1075
01:00:02,125 --> 01:00:06,045
are pushing this issue so hard, or at least I
couldn't find it in the research that I did to
1076
01:00:06,045 --> 01:00:07,085
make this video.
1077
01:00:07,244 --> 01:00:12,180
And so people kinda talk about Mastercard and
Visa as the ones that are the most likely here
1078
01:00:12,180 --> 01:00:13,780
because they are the big dogs.
1079
01:00:13,780 --> 01:00:17,860
They are the ones that have something like 99%
of financial transactions, that they help
1080
01:00:17,860 --> 01:00:19,700
facilitate in the digital environment.
1081
01:00:19,700 --> 01:00:23,904
And so I think it's likely that one or both of
them are involved in this, but we don't know
1082
01:00:23,904 --> 01:00:24,625
for sure.
1083
01:00:24,944 --> 01:00:29,505
And before we do know that for sure, I do
hesitate to name any of these other than to
1084
01:00:29,505 --> 01:00:32,465
note that this letter was sent to these
particular organizations.
1085
01:00:32,864 --> 01:00:37,264
They continue with their quote, these games
endorsing men's sexualized abuse and torture of
1086
01:00:37,264 --> 01:00:40,840
women and girls fly in the face of efforts to
address violence against women.
1087
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:44,360
We do not see how facilitating payment
transactions and deriving financial benefit
1088
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:48,039
from these violent and unethical games is
consistent with your corporate values and
1089
01:00:48,039 --> 01:00:49,079
mission statements.
1090
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:50,039
And that's fine.
1091
01:00:50,355 --> 01:00:54,114
Go advocate to the private organization like
Visa and Mastercard that they shouldn't be
1092
01:00:54,114 --> 01:00:54,994
doing this thing.
1093
01:00:55,155 --> 01:01:00,355
But it when it leads to something like this,
when we're talking about infrastructure and not
1094
01:01:00,355 --> 01:01:06,329
just access to the App Store or something along
those lines, then we've got a bigger issue than
1095
01:01:06,329 --> 01:01:09,769
what many that are reporting on this story are
willing to state it as.
1096
01:01:09,769 --> 01:01:14,089
We request that you demonstrate corporate
social responsibility and immediately cease
1097
01:01:14,089 --> 01:01:17,530
processing payments on Steam and itch.io and
any other platforms hosting similar games.
1098
01:01:17,994 --> 01:01:21,355
And they have signatories that include
themselves, the National Center on Sexual
1099
01:01:21,355 --> 01:01:27,994
Exploitation, Exodus Cry, Center to End All
Sexual Exploitation, FILIA, Coalition Against
1100
01:01:27,994 --> 01:01:32,059
Trafficking and Women Australia, along with
Michael Salter, professor and director of
1101
01:01:32,059 --> 01:01:36,380
Childlike East Asia and Pacific Hub, more
signatories in that paragraph.
1102
01:01:36,380 --> 01:01:39,900
And we can find the full letter here because
they put it all up for us to read.
1103
01:01:40,780 --> 01:01:46,844
Re your corporations facilitating and profiting
from rape, incest, and child sexual abuse game
1104
01:01:46,844 --> 01:01:47,485
sales.
1105
01:01:48,925 --> 01:01:53,085
And, again, we do not see how facilitating
payment and driving financial benefit is
1106
01:01:53,085 --> 01:01:56,605
consistent with your corporate values and
mission statements is a heck of a thing to say
1107
01:01:56,605 --> 01:02:00,949
and apparently is enough to get these payment
processors moving on their behalf in regard,
1108
01:02:01,269 --> 01:02:03,829
but it is an issue at the end of the day.
1109
01:02:03,829 --> 01:02:09,989
This is censorship writ large, designed to
prevent you or I from playing certain things
1110
01:02:09,989 --> 01:02:15,144
that we might otherwise want to play, and
they're designing it in this particular way so
1111
01:02:15,144 --> 01:02:19,385
that you can't otherwise easily defend these
things because they are not so easily
1112
01:02:19,385 --> 01:02:20,025
defendable.
1113
01:02:20,025 --> 01:02:24,664
But believe you me, if they keep going down
this line of attack, they will eventually get
1114
01:02:24,664 --> 01:02:29,900
to something that you care about and we would
then be essentially under the control of what
1115
01:02:29,900 --> 01:02:36,460
we're allowed to see, read, hear, and even
think of Melinda Reyes of Australia and Haley
1116
01:02:36,460 --> 01:02:41,099
McNamara of The US, Michael Salter of
Australia, Helen Taylor, and all these other
1117
01:02:41,099 --> 01:02:45,864
signatories to letters like this one regardless
of whether or not we would have them otherwise
1118
01:02:45,864 --> 01:02:47,304
govern our society.
1119
01:02:47,385 --> 01:02:48,425
And that's a big issue.
1120
01:02:48,425 --> 01:02:50,425
It's an existential threat, I would argue.
1121
01:02:50,425 --> 01:02:54,824
And we see it has affected other societies
before ours.
1122
01:02:54,824 --> 01:02:59,980
Here's an article from 2024 talking about Visa
Japan and their CEO that says disabling card
1123
01:02:59,980 --> 01:03:03,900
payments for legal adult content is necessary
to protect the brand.
1124
01:03:03,900 --> 01:03:06,619
And we go and we look at this article from
December 24.
1125
01:03:06,619 --> 01:03:07,579
It says, hey.
1126
01:03:07,820 --> 01:03:14,535
They were asked during a q and a session, why
did Visa make their service unusable on sites
1127
01:03:14,535 --> 01:03:16,775
selling adult content that's legal in Japan?
1128
01:03:16,775 --> 01:03:21,015
And in response, they say it is sometimes
necessary to deny use to protect the brand.
1129
01:03:21,095 --> 01:03:25,200
He goes on to say these are complex decisions
involving both global and local policies and
1130
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:29,920
that it is important to maintain sincerity and
integrity and we will continue to do so.
1131
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:34,960
Now this jumps out to me again as a corporate
lawyer as something that is exactly what I
1132
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:40,655
would expect some of these private companies to
say, But what we can do as consumers of art, of
1133
01:03:40,655 --> 01:03:43,855
media, however you want to frame this, if you
don't like calling video games art or certainly
1134
01:03:43,855 --> 01:03:47,454
not the ones that are named in the Steam
database list that we talked about earlier,
1135
01:03:47,614 --> 01:03:54,170
that what we care about here is not what Visa
wants to think of as the brand.
1136
01:03:54,170 --> 01:03:54,409
Right?
1137
01:03:54,409 --> 01:03:59,769
We care about you stopping the function of a
platform unless they do what you say and that
1138
01:03:59,769 --> 01:04:04,730
what we need to say as consumers is that the
brand Visa in this regard as a payment
1139
01:04:04,730 --> 01:04:08,965
processor, the brand's importance is in the
movement of money.
1140
01:04:09,125 --> 01:04:14,724
We don't say that what is being sold in these
marketplaces is reflective of the payment
1141
01:04:14,724 --> 01:04:16,085
processor at all.
1142
01:04:16,085 --> 01:04:21,480
And that needs to be communicated to them in
its entirety in order for them to lose their
1143
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:24,920
ability to say even this much that it's
reflective on the brand.
1144
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:29,160
I am very sympathetic to companies, private
companies, not wanting to be associated with
1145
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:32,295
things that they don't wanna be associated I am
very sympathetic to that argument.
1146
01:04:32,295 --> 01:04:36,295
I understand why a CEO or COO might make the
one that we see here.
1147
01:04:36,454 --> 01:04:38,375
But what consumers can do is say, hey, look.
1148
01:04:38,534 --> 01:04:42,534
What concerns me with Visa, what concerns me
with Mastercard is whether or not the money
1149
01:04:42,534 --> 01:04:46,640
that I want to spend got to the other place
that I wanted to spend it on quickly and
1150
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:48,640
efficiently and with no issues on my end.
1151
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:49,840
That's what I want to see.
1152
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:50,800
That's what I care about.
1153
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,239
That's what reflects on your brand.
1154
01:04:52,239 --> 01:04:54,000
Same as if I'm making a phone call.
1155
01:04:54,239 --> 01:04:59,695
I don't want you at AT and T or Verizon or
wherever to be judging who it is that I call.
1156
01:04:59,695 --> 01:05:04,175
I don't want you to be outlawing 900 numbers or
what have you because you think that that
1157
01:05:04,175 --> 01:05:05,614
reflects poorly on your brand.
1158
01:05:05,614 --> 01:05:09,454
What reflects poorly on your brand is whether
the video works, whether it's a staticky phone
1159
01:05:09,454 --> 01:05:11,375
call, and nothing else.
1160
01:05:11,375 --> 01:05:16,390
We're talking about an infrastructural
solution, a service that you provide that is in
1161
01:05:16,390 --> 01:05:18,309
between what is actually happening here.
1162
01:05:18,630 --> 01:05:24,550
And I don't want you to think or have this hook
to hang your hat on that consumers have any
1163
01:05:24,550 --> 01:05:28,309
relationship between what they are buying with
their money or what anybody else might be
1164
01:05:28,309 --> 01:05:31,964
buying on the platform with their money and
what the payment processor is otherwise
1165
01:05:31,964 --> 01:05:32,684
facilitating.
1166
01:05:32,684 --> 01:05:36,924
So get it out of your head Visa that this
reflects on the brand and consumers.
1167
01:05:36,924 --> 01:05:42,284
Help them get it out of your head because you
are going to communicate that that isn't what
1168
01:05:42,284 --> 01:05:45,559
Visa and Mastercard should be concerned with in
the first instance.
1169
01:05:45,719 --> 01:05:52,280
Or as NieR automata creator Yoko Taro says,
it's a security hole that endangers democracy
1170
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:52,920
itself.
1171
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:58,304
And this is from the same conversation point in
late twenty twenty four about credit card
1172
01:05:58,304 --> 01:06:01,265
payment companies refusing to process payments
for legal adult content.
1173
01:06:01,505 --> 01:06:05,184
Publishing in similar fields have always faced
regulations that go beyond the law, but the
1174
01:06:05,184 --> 01:06:08,144
fact that a payment processor, is involved in
the entire infrastructure of content
1175
01:06:08,144 --> 01:06:12,440
distribution, can do such things at its own
discretion seems to me to be a dangerous on a
1176
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:13,319
whole new level.
1177
01:06:13,319 --> 01:06:17,319
It implies that by controlling payment
processing companies, you can even censor
1178
01:06:17,319 --> 01:06:19,079
another country's free speech.
1179
01:06:19,079 --> 01:06:23,480
In a follow-up tweet, Yoko Taro goes on to say
that I feel like it's not just a matter of
1180
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:27,664
censoring adult content or jeopardizing freedom
of expression, but rather a security hold that
1181
01:06:27,664 --> 01:06:29,344
endangers democracy itself.
1182
01:06:29,505 --> 01:06:32,465
And I looked at this article when I was
researching this video and I thought to myself
1183
01:06:32,465 --> 01:06:34,864
to begin with, that seems a little bit far,
doesn't it?
1184
01:06:34,864 --> 01:06:37,905
But, obviously, if you've been listening to me
this whole time, you know that I've adopted
1185
01:06:37,905 --> 01:06:38,945
this as basically true.
1186
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:39,800
Right?
1187
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:43,000
If you've got a society, if you've got a
western democracy and you're electing your
1188
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:47,079
representatives to have these policy
conversations and policy debates to determine
1189
01:06:47,079 --> 01:06:51,639
what is and isn't allowed in that society, then
to have another group, especially one that's
1190
01:06:51,639 --> 01:06:56,295
foreign, it's outside the bounds of the
jurisdiction of your society, determine for you
1191
01:06:56,295 --> 01:06:59,974
what is and isn't allowed without going through
that policy process is fundamentally
1192
01:06:59,974 --> 01:07:01,094
antidemocratic.
1193
01:07:01,094 --> 01:07:05,655
It's fundamentally outside the bounds of a
liberal democracy, and so we have to look at
1194
01:07:05,655 --> 01:07:11,320
those with the correct existential
understanding that allowing these operations to
1195
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:16,280
happen, allowing a payment processor that has
this complete control of the payment processing
1196
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:21,000
system to say we are not going to allow this
group in this other country to buy these things
1197
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:26,055
that they otherwise want to buy, then that's a
problem for the entire process because we have
1198
01:07:26,215 --> 01:07:28,695
systems to say what's legal and illegal.
1199
01:07:28,695 --> 01:07:33,494
And if we say something is legal, then you
payment processor should really have no say in
1200
01:07:33,494 --> 01:07:37,414
that, especially when we're not seeing anything
that suggests that your brand is at all
1201
01:07:37,579 --> 01:07:45,179
impugned by what steam or itch.io or Patreon or
anyone else actually allows people to spend
1202
01:07:45,179 --> 01:07:46,140
their money on.
1203
01:07:46,300 --> 01:07:47,820
And that's the real threat here.
1204
01:07:47,820 --> 01:07:53,335
Now folks have asked me when they wanted to
talk about this issue, what laws could we
1205
01:07:53,335 --> 01:07:54,375
potentially invoke here?
1206
01:07:54,375 --> 01:07:58,535
They asked me about antitrust because Visa and
Mastercard in particular control so much of the
1207
01:07:58,535 --> 01:07:59,095
marketplace.
1208
01:07:59,095 --> 01:08:03,015
I don't think that's a terribly good mechanism
to try to seek protection from Visa and
1209
01:08:03,015 --> 01:08:08,679
Mastercard primarily because the law, the
Sherman Act, in The United States that I've got
1210
01:08:08,679 --> 01:08:12,199
highlighted on your screen right now that says
every contract in the form of trust or
1211
01:08:12,199 --> 01:08:17,255
otherwise in restraint of trade is declared to
be illegal is predominantly focused on
1212
01:08:17,414 --> 01:08:22,454
restraints of trade that are designed to
benefit the market situation of the actor.
1213
01:08:22,454 --> 01:08:22,695
Right?
1214
01:08:22,695 --> 01:08:26,135
If Visa were making contracts or otherwise
restricting steam because they thought it
1215
01:08:26,135 --> 01:08:30,849
didn't gate it enhanced the market presence of
Visa or Mastercard or PayPal or whatever we
1216
01:08:30,849 --> 01:08:35,250
wanna put on that side of the ledger on this
question, then the law probably has something
1217
01:08:35,250 --> 01:08:35,969
to say about that.
1218
01:08:35,969 --> 01:08:39,809
The law probably has something to say that's a
restraint of trade that's designed to help
1219
01:08:39,809 --> 01:08:43,409
enhance your market position, and so we can be
concerned with that.
1220
01:08:43,545 --> 01:08:47,864
In this particular case though, they are
essentially acting as a co opted political
1221
01:08:47,864 --> 01:08:54,104
entity, almost a quasi extra government, making
these policy determinations on the part of
1222
01:08:54,104 --> 01:08:56,585
Steam and on the users of Steam or itch.
1223
01:08:57,064 --> 01:09:01,060
And so I don't think the law actually would
look at this as a restraint of trade for most
1224
01:09:01,060 --> 01:09:03,060
precedent that we could talk about in this
circumstance.
1225
01:09:03,060 --> 01:09:07,939
It's not impossible and new laws and novel
applications of laws happen all the time, but I
1226
01:09:07,939 --> 01:09:12,100
think it's probably a difficult argument to win
in the long run.
1227
01:09:12,100 --> 01:09:18,435
Antitrust laws are famously kind of difficult
to impose on private actors, certainly by a
1228
01:09:18,435 --> 01:09:21,954
private actor themselves and not a government
agency like the FTC or the Department of
1229
01:09:21,954 --> 01:09:22,514
Justice.
1230
01:09:22,835 --> 01:09:27,314
So I think that's a probably a pretty poor
solution to this particular issue.
1231
01:09:27,539 --> 01:09:30,899
But the one that I did wanna highlight for you,
you heard me reference it earlier in this
1232
01:09:30,899 --> 01:09:34,020
video, is the concept of a common carrier.
1233
01:09:34,100 --> 01:09:39,380
Now you may have heard this phrase if you're a
big reader of supreme court decisions, in the
1234
01:09:39,380 --> 01:09:44,625
past because there's been a conversation as to
whether or not Internet providers, Internet
1235
01:09:44,625 --> 01:09:48,545
service providers, and other kind of
infrastructure providers around the Internet
1236
01:09:48,545 --> 01:09:50,304
should be considered common carriers.
1237
01:09:50,304 --> 01:09:51,344
What is a common carrier?
1238
01:09:51,344 --> 01:09:55,264
Well, I pulled up a a law blog article for you
here.
1239
01:09:55,260 --> 01:09:59,179
Says It a common carrier is a private or public
entity that transports goods or people for a
1240
01:09:59,179 --> 01:10:02,619
fee and is required by law to provide its
services to anyone willing to pay.
1241
01:10:02,619 --> 01:10:06,219
Now that's actually a little bit too reductive
as to what a common carrier is because in The
1242
01:10:06,219 --> 01:10:09,685
United States, as they continue, common
carriers are regulated by the Federal
1243
01:10:09,685 --> 01:10:12,965
Communications Commission under title two of
the Communications Act of 1934.
1244
01:10:12,965 --> 01:10:15,765
You say, well, Rick, didn't they just say it's
about moving goods or people?
1245
01:10:15,765 --> 01:10:17,765
How does the Communications Act come into play?
1246
01:10:17,765 --> 01:10:22,085
That's because telecommunications, phones,
Internet providers, and whatnot, those are the
1247
01:10:22,085 --> 01:10:25,840
most predominant common carriers in American
regulatory law.
1248
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:26,079
Right?
1249
01:10:26,079 --> 01:10:30,800
When we talk about that phone, I wasn't using
that example, just out of nowhere to talk about
1250
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:31,199
it.
1251
01:10:31,199 --> 01:10:36,239
It's that we think the telephone companies are
providing a service to everyone.
1252
01:10:36,239 --> 01:10:38,560
They don't decide who it is that they can
provide the service to and not.
1253
01:10:38,795 --> 01:10:43,274
Don't decide who it is you can talk to and what
subjects you can talk to them about or not.
1254
01:10:43,274 --> 01:10:43,514
Right?
1255
01:10:43,514 --> 01:10:48,154
It would be a real issue in The United States
if Verizon could just come in and say, well,
1256
01:10:48,154 --> 01:10:51,994
we're not gonna provide phone service to you
anymore because we thought that phone sex you
1257
01:10:51,994 --> 01:10:56,109
had with your wife was a little too kinky for
our liking and so good luck finding another
1258
01:10:56,109 --> 01:10:56,750
phone service.
1259
01:10:56,750 --> 01:10:58,989
That's not how phone operators work.
1260
01:10:59,229 --> 01:11:04,510
And we accept that because it's such a
fundamental important infrastructural component
1261
01:11:04,670 --> 01:11:09,469
of modern society that telecommunications
carriers are all kind of ruled as common
1262
01:11:09,469 --> 01:11:09,869
carriers.
1263
01:11:10,145 --> 01:11:14,305
They have to bring everybody on their
regulations around what fees they can charge
1264
01:11:14,305 --> 01:11:16,784
and how they can operate, and that can be its
own problem.
1265
01:11:16,784 --> 01:11:16,944
Right?
1266
01:11:16,944 --> 01:11:20,784
I'm not gonna sit here as a corporate lawyer
and tell you that government regulations is all
1267
01:11:20,784 --> 01:11:22,145
fantastic in every regard.
1268
01:11:22,699 --> 01:11:27,739
But in certain circumstances where a service
that is provided is essentially essential for
1269
01:11:27,739 --> 01:11:33,899
the operation of a modern economy, then the
government often has reason and ability to step
1270
01:11:33,899 --> 01:11:38,895
in and say, look, you need to offer your stuff
on a non discriminatory basis.
1271
01:11:38,895 --> 01:11:43,694
You need to offer it to everybody and you're
not to look at the underlying subject matter of
1272
01:11:43,694 --> 01:11:45,375
what your service is used for.
1273
01:11:45,375 --> 01:11:45,534
Right?
1274
01:11:45,534 --> 01:11:52,439
Your job is to make sure money x goes from bank
y to bank z and to take no interest in why that
1275
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:53,560
money is changing hands.
1276
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:57,880
Now the government itself, as I said before in
this video, has already complicated that matter
1277
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:02,774
somewhat because of anti money laundering rules
and other know your customer rules that have
1278
01:12:02,774 --> 01:12:05,734
been imposed on banks and financial
institutions of all kinds.
1279
01:12:06,135 --> 01:12:10,614
But setting that aside for just a moment, I do
think that there could be pressure put on
1280
01:12:10,614 --> 01:12:13,414
places like Visa and Mastercard and other
payment processors that say, look.
1281
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:18,039
If you're gonna operate in this industry, if
you're gonna move money from point x to point
1282
01:12:18,039 --> 01:12:20,439
y, then you need to be a common carrier.
1283
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:22,439
You need to offer your service without
discrimination.
1284
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:27,704
You should have no interest in what that movie
is be money is being used for because that's
1285
01:12:27,704 --> 01:12:28,664
not your job.
1286
01:12:28,664 --> 01:12:32,824
If it is anybody's job, it's the government's
job and the people elect their representatives
1287
01:12:32,824 --> 01:12:38,024
to determine what interest the government
should have in what that money is spent on.
1288
01:12:38,024 --> 01:12:39,625
And I think that's an argument that you could
make.
1289
01:12:39,625 --> 01:12:43,100
I think it's an argument that people could win
and I think I certainly think it's an argument
1290
01:12:43,100 --> 01:12:49,180
that would freak the Visas and Mastercards of
the world out if it began to gain traction at
1291
01:12:49,180 --> 01:12:50,539
any significant degree.
1292
01:12:50,619 --> 01:12:54,435
Common carriers after all are obligated to
serve all customers equally as long as the
1293
01:12:54,435 --> 01:12:56,514
request complies with legal and operational
requirements.
1294
01:12:56,514 --> 01:13:00,354
They have a bunch of regulations that are
imposed upon them, by The United States.
1295
01:13:00,354 --> 01:13:03,954
Regulatory bodies grant carriers the authority
to operate under specific terms, rates,
1296
01:13:03,954 --> 01:13:04,914
schedules, and rules.
1297
01:13:04,914 --> 01:13:08,750
These bodies can create, interpret, and enforce
regulations on those carriers, ensuring safety
1298
01:13:08,750 --> 01:13:12,270
and compliance in their operations, which is a
very generous reading of what the regulatory
1299
01:13:12,270 --> 01:13:13,630
bodies do in this regard.
1300
01:13:13,789 --> 01:13:18,670
But it does mean that you wind up with things
like payment processing, which nobody thinks of
1301
01:13:18,670 --> 01:13:23,324
as being a part of the economy that should
dictate what content is available for people to
1302
01:13:23,324 --> 01:13:27,324
otherwise consume is regulated as the utility
that it is.
1303
01:13:27,324 --> 01:13:27,645
Right?
1304
01:13:27,645 --> 01:13:30,524
The the the water coming into your home, the
electricity coming into your home.
1305
01:13:30,685 --> 01:13:35,000
Moving money in a digital environment in the
twenty first century is that important to that
1306
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:40,119
many people that maybe this is the kind of
thing where the government should step in even
1307
01:13:40,119 --> 01:13:43,880
if they are loath to do so because the
government has been very slow in doing much of
1308
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:46,600
anything with the digital infrastructure
overall.
1309
01:13:46,935 --> 01:13:50,375
And that's not to say that that's where I want
things to wind up here, but it is the kind of
1310
01:13:50,375 --> 01:13:54,614
pressure that people that were interested in
this particular topic could put on vSend
1311
01:13:54,614 --> 01:13:56,614
Mastercard if they were so inclined.
1312
01:13:56,614 --> 01:13:59,494
Which leads us to what can you do?
1313
01:14:00,070 --> 01:14:00,630
Right?
1314
01:14:00,630 --> 01:14:05,270
So I wanted to talk as part of this video,
which is very rare for me in virtual reality
1315
01:14:05,270 --> 01:14:10,550
about what you might be interested in doing if
you were very interested in this topic.
1316
01:14:10,550 --> 01:14:10,869
Right?
1317
01:14:10,869 --> 01:14:12,390
So this looks like a bad thing.
1318
01:14:12,390 --> 01:14:15,350
Rick just said this is one of the most
important videos in virtual reality that he's
1319
01:14:15,350 --> 01:14:15,670
ever made.
1320
01:14:16,125 --> 01:14:17,724
Very concerned about the freedom of expression.
1321
01:14:17,724 --> 01:14:22,204
He thinks this is a slippery slope that leads
to more and more censorship.
1322
01:14:22,204 --> 01:14:27,164
And if we don't do something to buoy these
platforms, to cut down on these payment
1323
01:14:27,164 --> 01:14:30,844
processors, to talk about these activists, and
otherwise to advocate in our own governments,
1324
01:14:30,844 --> 01:14:32,590
then this could get out of hand very very
quick.
1325
01:14:32,590 --> 01:14:35,869
Whereas I put on social media the other day
when I was potentially planning to make this
1326
01:14:35,869 --> 01:14:39,949
video, this is the kind of story that can eat
the whole industry, if not multiple industries.
1327
01:14:39,949 --> 01:14:45,125
This could eat all of culture and media
creation across the world if it's allowed Visa
1328
01:14:45,125 --> 01:14:49,204
and Mastercard to get to decide what it is that
you or I can otherwise buy.
1329
01:14:49,284 --> 01:14:50,564
So what can you do?
1330
01:14:50,725 --> 01:14:53,925
Well, I would offer that if you are going to
look at this from the platform's perspective,
1331
01:14:53,925 --> 01:14:57,364
as I said at the top of this video, then you
need to look at them and say this is weak
1332
01:14:57,364 --> 01:14:57,685
sauce.
1333
01:14:57,689 --> 01:14:58,090
Right?
1334
01:14:58,090 --> 01:14:58,649
This is bad.
1335
01:14:58,649 --> 01:15:01,529
You don't have the backbone that you need to
have here.
1336
01:15:01,609 --> 01:15:05,529
And if you don't get the backbone, you're gonna
lose the ability to control what it is that you
1337
01:15:05,529 --> 01:15:06,889
sell to me entirely.
1338
01:15:07,210 --> 01:15:09,449
So don't negotiate with the terrorists, Steam.
1339
01:15:09,734 --> 01:15:12,694
Don't negotiate with the terrorists, itch.io.
1340
01:15:12,694 --> 01:15:14,534
I understand how scary this is.
1341
01:15:14,534 --> 01:15:14,774
Right?
1342
01:15:14,774 --> 01:15:19,014
They are telling you we're gonna cut off your
ability to make money at all, and they are just
1343
01:15:19,014 --> 01:15:20,534
strong enough to do it.
1344
01:15:20,694 --> 01:15:23,175
But say, don't negotiate with them.
1345
01:15:23,175 --> 01:15:27,090
Talk to Steam and itch io if you're the
consumer and say, look, we'll figure this out.
1346
01:15:27,090 --> 01:15:29,729
I understand that you need to have money to
make this function.
1347
01:15:30,050 --> 01:15:33,890
Figure out how to have your own financial
system with gift cards, with app credits,
1348
01:15:33,890 --> 01:15:35,090
whatever it might be.
1349
01:15:35,170 --> 01:15:39,624
We'll figure out a way to get that money to you
and tell them that it's gonna be okay,
1350
01:15:39,704 --> 01:15:40,104
essentially.
1351
01:15:40,104 --> 01:15:40,505
Right?
1352
01:15:40,505 --> 01:15:44,744
What these platforms need is to understand that
while this feels very threatening and I'm sure
1353
01:15:44,744 --> 01:15:49,864
the phone calls are very furious, the emails
are very fast and angry, that it's gonna be
1354
01:15:49,864 --> 01:15:50,344
alright.
1355
01:15:50,344 --> 01:15:51,460
You're You're gonna figure this out.
1356
01:15:51,460 --> 01:15:56,420
And if you're steam, if you're the size of
valve for god's sakes, suck it up and work with
1357
01:15:56,420 --> 01:16:01,619
your customers to figure out a way that you can
get through this without just letting these
1358
01:16:01,619 --> 01:16:06,654
payment processors decide what it is that you
are allowed to sell when your own government
1359
01:16:06,654 --> 01:16:09,215
has otherwise deemed those things to be legal.
1360
01:16:09,295 --> 01:16:13,774
So don't negotiate with terrorist platforms and
if you're on the consumer side, tell them that
1361
01:16:13,774 --> 01:16:18,255
hey, alright, you think you're worried you're
not gonna get any money now, then maybe I don't
1362
01:16:17,780 --> 01:16:21,220
otherwise buy things from you if you otherwise
accede to these things because this is an
1363
01:16:21,220 --> 01:16:25,699
existential threat to everything I hold dear
not just in video gaming, but around the world
1364
01:16:25,699 --> 01:16:26,819
in terms of media.
1365
01:16:26,900 --> 01:16:29,619
Now to payment processors, it gets a little bit
more complicated.
1366
01:16:29,780 --> 01:16:32,500
Let them know that your brand is moving money,
right?
1367
01:16:33,155 --> 01:16:38,114
Visa, Mastercard, you wanna say, we do have an
interest in not being associated with these
1368
01:16:38,114 --> 01:16:39,074
very bad things.
1369
01:16:39,235 --> 01:16:40,034
I get that.
1370
01:16:40,034 --> 01:16:41,154
I understand that.
1371
01:16:41,155 --> 01:16:45,475
But help them understand that nobody thinks of
Visa and Mastercard when they're thinking about
1372
01:16:45,475 --> 01:16:51,210
Bob down the street buying family sexcapades
incest story or whatever it is from Steam, with
1373
01:16:51,210 --> 01:16:52,889
the payment processing happening.
1374
01:16:52,890 --> 01:16:55,609
Bob decided to buy that money game with his own
money.
1375
01:16:55,609 --> 01:16:56,969
Steam decided to sell it.
1376
01:16:56,969 --> 01:16:58,409
That's on Bob and Steam.
1377
01:16:58,409 --> 01:16:59,289
That's not on Visa.
1378
01:16:59,289 --> 01:17:00,409
That's not on Mastercard.
1379
01:17:00,489 --> 01:17:04,734
Don't let them think that it is and help them
to understand that it isn't.
1380
01:17:04,734 --> 01:17:04,975
Right?
1381
01:17:04,975 --> 01:17:09,135
Or at least help the world understand that if
they make this claim in the future that it's
1382
01:17:09,135 --> 01:17:14,590
all ridiculous and that nobody's making this
association anyway and it's essentially a lie
1383
01:17:14,590 --> 01:17:18,030
to help them do what that does that they want
to do vis a vis censorship.
1384
01:17:18,030 --> 01:17:21,630
To the activists, say get elected or get out.
1385
01:17:21,630 --> 01:17:22,030
Right?
1386
01:17:22,030 --> 01:17:22,510
Okay.
1387
01:17:22,510 --> 01:17:25,070
You wanna go and you wanna didn't make these
policy arguments.
1388
01:17:25,070 --> 01:17:30,175
You wanna say this particular research article
in Australia is more important than this other
1389
01:17:30,175 --> 01:17:35,135
research Australia that you might otherwise be
be found somewhere else, then get elected to
1390
01:17:35,135 --> 01:17:38,494
the representative role in your government,
make the laws that you think need to be made,
1391
01:17:38,654 --> 01:17:41,550
convince your representatives if you'd prefer,
convince the people around you to elect
1392
01:17:41,550 --> 01:17:45,949
representatives that you'd prefer, whatever it
is that is democracy in your particular
1393
01:17:45,949 --> 01:17:48,909
jurisdiction or get out of here with these
arguments.
1394
01:17:48,989 --> 01:17:49,229
Right?
1395
01:17:49,229 --> 01:17:52,029
Get out of here with, okay, we're gonna go
around the horn.
1396
01:17:52,029 --> 01:17:56,614
We're gonna make Visa and Mastercard the de
facto super government of the of the earth and
1397
01:17:56,614 --> 01:18:02,295
get out because even if you make a good point,
you are not acting in democratic principles,
1398
01:18:02,295 --> 01:18:06,775
you aren't acting in the liberal democracy way
that we would see you act.
1399
01:18:06,775 --> 01:18:09,289
So do that for the activists.
1400
01:18:09,289 --> 01:18:12,890
And on the government side, let them know that
essential services are essential.
1401
01:18:12,890 --> 01:18:16,970
That what we're talking about here when we talk
about payment processing has for too long been
1402
01:18:16,970 --> 01:18:23,534
allowed to operate as a purely private company
with basically no other things to think about
1403
01:18:23,534 --> 01:18:26,494
and needs to be regulated as a common carrier.
1404
01:18:26,494 --> 01:18:30,095
Needs to be regulated like a utility, in order
to keep that function.
1405
01:18:30,095 --> 01:18:32,175
If you wanna have that role, Visa and
Mastercard.
1406
01:18:32,175 --> 01:18:37,010
If you wanna have that size and power, then you
need to treat everybody equally and we're not
1407
01:18:37,010 --> 01:18:42,689
going to abide by you deciding what is and
isn't allowed when the government itself hasn't
1408
01:18:42,689 --> 01:18:43,810
made that determination.
1409
01:18:43,890 --> 01:18:47,010
Or continuing from there, if you really wanna
get aggressive with the government side of
1410
01:18:47,010 --> 01:18:50,864
things and you're in The United States, talk
about know your customer rules, talk about
1411
01:18:50,864 --> 01:18:56,784
financial regulations, talk about anti money
laundering laws, all of which permit, if not
1412
01:18:56,784 --> 01:19:01,505
encourage, financial institutions and people
like payment processors to look inside the
1413
01:19:01,505 --> 01:19:05,420
transactions in a way that is not only
violative of certain people's privacy, but also
1414
01:19:05,420 --> 01:19:09,260
leads to conversations like this one that
jeopardize the entirety of the media
1415
01:19:09,260 --> 01:19:11,979
infrastructure in The United States and beyond.
1416
01:19:12,140 --> 01:19:13,739
So don't negotiate with terrorists.
1417
01:19:13,739 --> 01:19:14,619
Your brand is moving money.
1418
01:19:14,619 --> 01:19:15,739
Get elected or get out.
1419
01:19:15,739 --> 01:19:17,100
Essential services are essential.
1420
01:19:17,405 --> 01:19:18,765
You can do all of these things.
1421
01:19:18,765 --> 01:19:19,885
You can have these stances.
1422
01:19:19,885 --> 01:19:21,564
You can communicate on this level.
1423
01:19:21,805 --> 01:19:23,885
And you can also tell Steam and itch.
1424
01:19:23,885 --> 01:19:27,164
If they continue down this path, then they're
gonna be losing money anyway because you're not
1425
01:19:27,164 --> 01:19:31,039
gonna be willing to buy from them because they
aren't defending what's so important about what
1426
01:19:31,039 --> 01:19:34,720
they should be defending, the very platforms
that make them all the money that they have
1427
01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:35,279
today.
1428
01:19:35,359 --> 01:19:36,560
So think about those things.
1429
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:41,279
Please do consider them and leave any comments
that you can in the description or in the
1430
01:19:41,279 --> 01:19:44,560
comments to this video because every little bit
always helps.
1431
01:19:44,560 --> 01:19:48,324
But in this particular case, I think this is a
very important video that we've made today.
1432
01:19:48,324 --> 01:19:53,444
I think YouTube is very likely to not not show
it to so many people if it doesn't get those
1433
01:19:53,524 --> 01:19:56,645
comments from you, the upvotes, the other
things that you can tell YouTube that you're
1434
01:19:56,645 --> 01:19:57,444
interested in this content.
1435
01:19:57,909 --> 01:19:59,829
And thank you so much for being here.
1436
01:19:59,829 --> 01:20:03,189
If you wanna support conversations like this
one, please do check out the Patreon.
1437
01:20:03,189 --> 01:20:05,189
I'm also regularly doing livestreams.
1438
01:20:05,189 --> 01:20:09,829
So consider joining as a member of the channel,
having super chats in those livestreams, or
1439
01:20:09,829 --> 01:20:11,109
otherwise gifting those memberships.
1440
01:20:11,175 --> 01:20:13,414
Those are all fantastic ways to support the
channel.
1441
01:20:13,414 --> 01:20:17,574
Otherwise, as I said, just subscribing, telling
your friends, leaving comments to videos like
1442
01:20:17,574 --> 01:20:23,175
this one, every little bit helps, and I very
much appreciate you for doing any or all of
1443
01:20:23,175 --> 01:20:23,974
those steps.
1444
01:20:24,135 --> 01:20:24,774
Thank you so much.
1445
01:20:27,890 --> 01:20:33,489
Virtual legality is a YouTube video series with
audio podcast versions presented as commentary
1446
01:20:33,489 --> 01:20:36,529
and for education and entertainment purposes
only.
1447
01:20:36,770 --> 01:20:41,124
It does not constitute legal advice and does
not create an attorney client relationship.
1448
01:20:41,284 --> 01:20:45,524
If you have legal questions about the topics
discussed, please consult your own legal
1449
01:20:45,524 --> 01:20:46,005
counsel.