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Welcome to another episode of the Vast Lives Podcast.
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In this episode, we're on the steps of a cafe in Kijioji, Tokyo, Japan.
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This conversation follows DJ Dunn, a typeface designer from Oahu, Hawaii, now moving between Honolulu, California, New York, and Tokyo.
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His father taught him architectural lettering as a child, and that influence still runs through his work.
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An unlikely marriage of the analytical and the aesthetic.
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CJ traces his path from a teenage skate rat, punctured, and all back to the ocean, and eventually to Thai.
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We land on his proudest project, a typeface rooted in Hawaii that found its way unprompted onto the jerseys of the WSL's Pipe Challenger Surfing Series.
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Full circle for a kid who grew up watching contests at Pipeline.
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It's a conversation about lineage, architectural, cultural, creative, and what it means to put your own history into the shape of a letter.
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So let's dive right in for this next episode of the Vast Lives Podcast.
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Lovely to sit here in the basking sun.
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Yeah.
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Downtown Tokyo.
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In your neighborhood, I believe.
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Ichijoji, that's what it's called.
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Why have you chosen this neighborhood specifically?
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So I was in Japan as a university student, and a friend from university lived here for the last 12 years, and I would always come visit him here.
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And I just really liked it.
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When I wanted to move to Japan, I thought that's where I want to live in Kichijoji.
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We took a stroll down the road and you get that what's the little thrift stores?
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It's got a little homely vibe.
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So yeah, there's a lot of artists historically in Kichijoji.
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My friend told me that there were like some manga publishers since maybe the 70s or earlier.
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And so just a lot of artists would come here that would be working for those companies.
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And then even if they quit or were freelance or whatever, they would just stick around the neighborhood.
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And then their friends would move and it became this thing where just it was just known that like artists live around here.
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So yeah, you see a lot of creativity and a lot of people that I meet are also artists.
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So good for that.
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Creative hub.
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Yeah, totally.
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You can get that energy, as I say, as you walk through.
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You can feel it in the air.
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But if I were to meet you at one of these bars or at a party, how would you like introduce yourself to me?
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Normally I would if people ask what I do, I just say graphic design because it's the simple answer.
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But if people are more interested, or if they're like another creative person, then I'll let them know that I actually design typefaces primarily.
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I also do work with logos and lettering, like anything to do with letters, really.
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But yeah, I think you if you lead with typeface designer, then people get confused.
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The average person is like, or like you say typography, they think it's something to do with maps or some, yeah.
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Anyway, you like have you seen the movie Helvetica?
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And then they like it.
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Yeah.
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Totally.
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Yeah.
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Some people have that's like a common touch point, which thanks to that movie, I have a lot less explaining to do.
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Yes.
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About that there actually are people who design typefaces because it showcases a bunch of them in that movie.
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Yeah, I'd love to get into chatting about typefaces.
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But specifically Hawaii.
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Yes, yeah.
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I was born in Kahuku, Hawaii on the North Shore.
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I didn't grow up on the North Shore though, but I always feel a connection when I go back there, and we have a bunch of friends on that side, but primarily grew up in town, Paua Valley specifically, and then Kaimu Kee.
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So yeah, that's Hawaii's definitely my home.
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I spent time living in California also, and then New York after that.
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But yeah, Hawaii's for sure like the place that feels most like home to me.
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So from a very young age, were you always could you like identify your creative side from quite a young age?
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But like in school, like I really liked math, and I was like always like kind of technical things and computers and things like that.
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But my dad went to architecture school in Hawaii, yeah, University of Hawaii, and he would always give me art supplies, he would do lettering with me.
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There was a certain way of writing the alphabet for architecture drawings, and he would get me to practice writing letters that way.
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And I think he would always take us to art shows, museums, anything like that.
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That was a huge influence for my dad.
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And then, so I think eventually, like around high school, I got more into art myself, but I always I wasn't one of those kids who was just really good at drawing naturally.
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Like I knew kids who could draw comic books like Marvel comic style and all that stuff, and that was not me at all.
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But it came later, and I think the influence from my dad rubbed off on me and eventually presented itself.
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Yeah.
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It's really cool how your father played such a big role and ultimately coming from an architectural sort of heritage.
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But yeah, amazing to have that influence from your dad.
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Yeah.
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And also equally interesting that you had such an interest in math.
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Yeah.
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Because you don't ordinarily have a creative that has such an interest in math, rather.
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And so I think, oh, okay, that's why I do typeface design, because there is like a kind of technical side.
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And actually, architecture has that kind of creative and technical aspect as well.
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Yes.
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I've shared a studio with some architects in New York and gotten to know a bunch of architects.
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And I think I I feel a real kinship with architects because they are trying to make beautiful things, but they essentially have to function even more than a typeface.
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Like the building has to not fall down.
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There's very like serious technical requirements for making a building.
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And for typefaces, it's no one's gonna get crushed by the typeface not working properly, but maybe you can't read it as well, or there's actually a bunch of kind of technical things like required to make that work.
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So I feel like once I got into type design, that it really clicked.
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It's interesting because as I say, one would not normally associate it with someone who's analytical, but in art, if we consider some of the the Mondrians of the world, and a lot of them worked on the mean ratio.
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And so there is definitely a connect in terms of the use of numbers and ratios to get something that is pleasing to one's eye, and without even knowing it when the viewer is looking at a typeface, what sort of feeling it evokes.
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And I suppose the technical side of the design, the structured side of the design is what evokes those feelings, right?
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Yeah, I think so.
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And I think in also like in graphic design in general, there's a lot of like when there's like kind of a nice symmetry or things perfectly balanced, but with some one part slightly off, like a gestalt kind of idea.
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There's a lot of that stuff from the Bauhaus.
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Yeah, I was a big influence on modernism and design and rationalizing some of these aesthetic principles.
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But one thing that I learned, because actually before I started doing design, I was doing fine art, painting, drawing, printmaking.
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My teachers would always say the final deciding factor needs to be your eye.
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We did a lot of work just really training our eyes to make those decisions.
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And even with typeface design was something as technical and seemingly as mathematical as type design, your eye has to make the final call.
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There's things that you find out that there's all kinds of optical illusions and things that would seem like these two shapes should measure to be the same width or height.
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But if you have them mathematically perfect, they actually don't look quite right.
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And you have to make these kind of optical corrections really using your eye.
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So that's the thing I really like about it is it's this kind of push and pull between the aesthetic and the technical.
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Yeah, that is super cool.
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You're having to go beyond the constraints of structured design and just use your what's the word, intuition, your design eye, intuition of the eye to round it off and to complete what that typeface is going to look like.
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Yeah, I think it's also, I think your eye in that type in that sense is like a visual muscle that it's personally, I think of it as different than intuition.
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Over time, you can train this muscle in your eye, which is actually really good at judging visual things.
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It's really good at judging balance, it's really good at judging how thick and thin something is and what looks pleasing, but it's something that you build up over time and practice.
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And I've had a lot of really amazing teachers that will have exercises that we'll do, and then you build up that muscle of your eye at judging those things, and then you're just using that instead of using a measuring tape, you're using your eye measurement.
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I think for the viewers, it's gonna be particularly interesting because I didn't even think of an eye muscle, a trained eye muscle when it comes to design, but it does make sense.
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I'm a Neutra fan when it comes to architecture.
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Oh yeah.
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And I love cubism and so all this kind of really resonates with me.
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Growing up, were you did you tow the line or were you a little bit of a kickback rebel?
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Yeah, I definitely had a rebellious side.
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I think I started surfing when I was maybe nine on a like actual surfboard.
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Before that, I was just like bodyboarding and stuff like that.
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Right before high school, I got really into skateboarding and punk rock and kind of stopped surfing for a while.
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There's some kind of part of me that thought like it was cooler to skate.
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Honestly, looking back at it, I feel like it was some reflection of the surf industry at the time.
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It seemed a little like too clean-cut for me.
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And I was, my friends and I were just like kind of dirty skate rats.
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That was like the rebellious side, and we just wanted to go to punk shows and mosh and jump off of stairs and stuff.
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And the kind of clean-cut, like mid-90s surf industry, like didn't quite like gel with us.
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There's some exceptions to that.
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Like I had Vulcan videos actually, and they what I loved is they had surfing and skateboarding and snowboarding in one video, and I could really see the connection there.
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But yeah, for sure, that was the more like rebellious side of me, was like the kind of skate rat.
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I think the inner creative in you as well, you know, we think of skateboarding, we think of Dogtown and Z Boys and Tony Elvin, the graphics and the connect with art and design within the skate industry, like all the way through, probably is what would also interested you more.
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So then the surfing side of the art world.
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Like the 80s surfing in Hawaii was like the coolest thing ever, and I loved it.
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And it was interesting because also like that culture, like brands like HIC and local motion and TNC, like they were popular like around the world.
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And like I love that era of surf still, like these bright colors and like the script of local motion, like looking at the icon of HIC and realizing there's a face in there, a volcano, and there's like all this cool stuff like happening.
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I love that stuff.
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That made a huge impact on me, like visually, and just thinking about what graphics could be could be like.
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But then it kind of lined up when I was getting more into art and creative pursuits, happened to be like my lining up with my skate interests, and really it was kind of like seeing like the early stages of the kind of 90s like skate wave, like after the 80s, kind of big jump ramp or like big vert ramps and jump ramp stuff kind of died off.
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And then like the big pants, small wheels era of skateboarding was coming in.
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And skateboarding really was like an outsider thing at that point, it wasn't really part of the mainstream at that point, and so yeah, I was at the perfect age to click in with that.
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And the graphics were really, I feel like, doing really interesting things.
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Like the 80s had like really cool skate graphics for sure, like all the Santa Cruz and Jim Phillips graphics.
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But I feel like there was a certain, I don't know, the mid-90s skate graphics thing people just do like weird off-the-wall things, more weirdo stuff because it wasn't mainstream.
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That really influenced me a lot.
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And actually, the first time I realized what graphic design was, it was I was trying to figure out like how do you get your art onto a skateboard?
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And someone told me, oh, that's what a graphic designer does.
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And they draw something and then they use some different methods, processes, and then they can deliver that to the factory, and then your art will be on a board.
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And so I said, I want to do that.
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That's really the first time I had some inkling that I want it.
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Do you remember when it used to be called DTP, desktop publishers?
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Exactly.
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I remember that.
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That was my first, I did my first diploma in DTP.
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But going back to the skating, when I was in Hawaii, I was like texting Jun.
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I'm like, dude, is that that opening scene on Finding Animal Chin?
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Wallows.
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Wallows.
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Is it still good to skate?
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And he's like that's a little bit run down, but yeah.
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Arguably it was never good to skate, if you ask them.
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Yes, it was always super rough.
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Those guys made it look good.
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Uh crazy story is like when I was a kid, my dad's friend was a skate and surf photographer, and he told us they're gonna have a demo at this school in Hawaii.
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And then after I think it was 86 or something like that, there's a demo in New Valley School with jump ramps and stuff, and then those guys all went to skate walla's after that.
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And I found the thrasher when that was covered, and my dad actually had some photos that he shot of that day.
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And looking back, I saw, okay, there's Tommy Guerrero, there's a young Mark Gonzalez.
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Yeah.
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Christian Hasoy was there, and he took one photo of Christian Hasoy going off a jump ramp and the young baby Grom Mark Gonzalez turning and looking up at Christian Hasoy doing an air.
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And like we still have those photos.
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So that was like we got exposed to that at a young age, and we had those photos just up on my wall, and I would just look at it like, oh my God, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen.
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And I didn't even know who they were.
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I just could tell like this was an epic day that I saw in front of me.
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To be able to get so close to 80s and 90s skate heroes was quite something at that age, right?
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Huge influence.
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What's nuts is I got to meet Christian Hussoy later in New York, and I got to show him that photo, and he was like, Oh, no way.
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He just started telling me stories about that day, and he's oh, can you send that to me?
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And so I texted him the photos that my dad took of that day.
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So it was just like a kind of nice full circle moment.
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Absolutely incredible.
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Yeah.
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I grew up much the same, just like posters of Tony Alba on the wall.
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And then two years ago, I was in California and I got to, at one point, I was late at night sitting between Tony Alba and Steven Duran, and I was just one of those like full circle moments for me.
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I got to hang with Tony for the day.
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When designing a typeface, what's the first non-obvious decision that shapes everything that kind of follows?
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Type design is all about systems.
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Yeah.
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The way it was explained to me is if you have too few parts, the design looks repetitive.
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And if you have too many parts, it doesn't feel like a cohesive system.
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So I think the trying to figure out what the system is is super important.
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But also if there's some part that breaks the system, that's also I think a uh important part of the design.
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I had a teacher named Ed Bangat, and he was a super well-known designer.
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And his thing, he would say, make a system and stick to it everywhere except for one place.
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And then people will notice that one place and they'll say, He did something different there.
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Oh, that's really interesting.
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So it's almost like a wabi-sabi kind of idea.
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Yeah.
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Um and he would show in his typefaces, which are used everywhere.
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Like his last name is Bang Gat.
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There's a typeface named after him that he designed, and that's now being used for stranger things.
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And it's been used for tons of stuff over the years.
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But his work, he died a few years ago, but his work lives on.
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And you can see in that typeface, he would point out, like, oh yeah, see, here's the whole system I did, but here's this one place where I changed it, and that's what makes it interesting.
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And just deciding where you follow the system and where you break it and how you break it.
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And that's something I think that I uh look to in like my own work and to other people's work.
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Yeah, embracing the imperfection, what the wabisabi way of design, embracing small bits of imperfection as part of the design and being okay with that, and as you say, like almost purposefully creating that difference within the system.
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Yeah, I think it is.
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It's it should be on purpose.
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I think there's sometimes where you can set yourself up where you're like open to different things happening, right?
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But I think at some point you are choosing to keep that.
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So actually, I did these shirts for Vast, and I I wanted to make these wavy letters, like I'm wearing the shirt now, and I had an idea that like the system was like the line goes down and it has two waves, two parts in the line where it has this wave in there, and that it's a consistent angle, and I was just using like a broad edge marker, and so you get this the kind of consistent shape of the line, consistent width.
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And then I gave myself like grid lines to go off of, but then within those constraints, like I was just open to what would happen like while I'm holding that pen, specifically like the letter S in that design.
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There's a shape that came out, like I was just kind of moving my arm, following the angle and making a kind of a wave at the grid line that I made for myself.
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But the way that I ended up having to curve the S to make it look like an S within those constraints, like I honestly wouldn't have thought to do that on a computer.
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It was just like what the pen needed to do within these constraints that I set up for myself.
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And so that was a cool moment because I set up this system.
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But then I don't know if it was an exception or it's just like really the tool had to do something to look like an S within these parameters.
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I made a bunch of them, but there was one in particular that just jumped out to me and I was like, okay, that's the one.
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And a computer like distorting a letter at that angle or having a programmed wave.
00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:39.359
Like if you took a normal S and then you just did these transformations to it, it wouldn't have made that shape.
00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:51.839
But there was a moment where it was just basically the pen in that system and in my eye, bypassing my brain, just going straight from my eye to my hand and then seeing what happens.
00:18:52.000 --> 00:19:00.559
So yeah, in that whole design, that's like the one letter that I feel like stands out and it did something unexpected that I embraced.
00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:03.680
Yeah, you've done a couple of collaborations with VAST in the past.
00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.599
I think of the Worldwide Waveform Network that we're reigniting at the moment.
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:08.880
We're getting that going again.
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:12.640
And ironically, we're actually launching your mixtape again this week.
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:22.079
And we're trying to get a little bit more movement and energy around the concept of the Worldwide Waveform Network and have sound be a part of VAST.
00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:24.640
So there's that that you did on behalf of Vast.
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:26.000
There's this particular design.
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:27.680
Has that typeface got a name?
00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.799
Yeah, so this started as just lettering.
00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:41.200
So, like in in the type design world, they make a distinction between like lettering is like a one-off piece where you just do the letters you need for one word or a couple words.
00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:50.559
And then a typeface is when you actually take those and you fill out like the whole character set and you make it so that the letters are designed to be repeated.
00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:56.319
And so this the letters on this shirt was started just it says nature always wins.
00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:58.400
And I only drew those letters.
00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:02.480
But after I had done that, I was looking at it and I thought, you know what?
00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:07.440
This is a crazy lettering style, but maybe it could work as an actual typeface.
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:18.160
And the letters had to be changed, but I kind of went through it and really made the system work and ended up calling that typeface Belzy Land, named after my favorite spot to surf on the North Shore.
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:19.119
Belzix, yeah.
00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:19.440
Yeah.
00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:22.079
That's a cool little story.
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:22.799
Yeah.
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:31.359
One kind of fun thing, too, is it's been interesting to see how that typeface, once I released it, how it's been viewed by other people.
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:34.559
And Belzy Land is one of them that's in the creative cloud.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:41.920
And so after that got included, Adidas skateboarding used it for this awesome video called Paraiso.
00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:45.759
I grew up skateboarding and literally wear Adidas skateboard shoes.
00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:47.359
And then they chose my font.
00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:50.319
I don't even know who the graphic designer was who chose it.
00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:52.400
It wasn't a buddy of mine or anything.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:57.279
But then it just popped up on a skate video and my friend said it to me, hey, isn't that your font on there?
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:01.599
That's been super cool to see that resonated with someone over at Adidas skateboarding.
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:03.039
Some validation there.
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:12.319
Sometimes big brands will use my fonts, like BIC, the lighter company, is using one of my fonts called Dunbar for a bunch of their global branding, which is awesome.
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:19.200
But I have to say, when I see it something I'm used for a skate company or something like that, it means even more.
00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:25.200
Or even local Hawaii businesses and places in Hawaii using my fonts, it's always going to mean more to me.
00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:28.960
So, but yeah, that's kind of the origin story of this one called Belzy Land.
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:33.599
It started from this project with Vast and went on to be used by people like Adidas.
00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:39.279
Recently, also our film organization in Hawaii called Undercurrents that just started up is using it.
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:42.079
Sig Zane's shop, Sigon Smith.
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:47.279
They just launched a shirt on Friday, like a few days ago, using that same font for the first time.
00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:49.599
So it's like it's popping up all over.
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:51.680
And that's been a really nice thing to see.
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:53.599
How do you come up with the names for Yota?
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:56.960
Naming is one of the hardest things about type design, honestly.
00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:59.519
So DeLorean is actually a plugin.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:02.960
For this font software called RoboFonts.
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:04.480
But maybe I should make DeLorean.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:06.960
I wonder if I would get in trouble from the old company.
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:10.720
But as an extension, I don't think they're gonna, it's just a piece of software that's free.
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:13.359
So I don't think anyone's gonna care about that, hopefully.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:24.559
But yeah, but yeah, no, that's the thing is certain names are already used, certain names you have to be aware of something like that if it's associated with a big brand that might not want someone else to use that name.
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:33.359
But yeah, Belzy Land, it's I made this lettering style that I made into the first it started for Vast, and so it was already connected to surfing.
00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.039
And I always loved the way that Belzy Land sounded.
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:41.279
And I surfed there probably more than anywhere on the North Shore.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:50.799
And also another important thing for a typeface name is it's it should have letters that look good in that typeface.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:56.000
So for example, Belzy land, I think the V looks kind of cool, the A looks kind of cool.
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:58.640
Like it has a couple key letters in there.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:15.440
Cause if you had something that was just all straight lines, like H's and L's and something like that, then you don't really get to show off the unique character of that typeface because most designs that like H and L are kind of straight lines, you can't really show what's unique about it.
00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:19.920
But Velzy Land had enough unique characters that it I thought it was a good name.
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:24.400
So there's a connect through another layer, which is sound.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:24.960
Yes.
00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:36.000
V Velzyland, the way in which it sounds, the connect through the visual, which now brings me on to your love for music and mixing and when did that start?
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:39.519
I started actually probably when I was 14.
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:44.400
I knew people who were DJs or some older kids had turntables and stuff like that.
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:47.839
And at my school, it was like in photo class.
00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:50.079
There's a photo lab and there was a turntable.
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:52.240
It was just a normal ass turntable.
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:59.200
And my friend and I would just fuck around and scratch on a turntable, and we would just kind of go in there and try to scratch a record.
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:03.839
And then eventually I got turntables later and kind of learned how to DJ a little bit.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:06.319
And I would do beat juggling with hip-hop records.
00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:08.160
I'd buy doubles of records and stuff like that.
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:11.440
So Beastie Boys, I'm thinking Beastie Boys might have been an influence.
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:13.519
DJ Shadow, DJ Crush.
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:18.960
I feel like that first DJ Shadow record, like he would scratch, but it like was super tastefully done.
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:21.119
And it wasn't just like over the top.
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:21.920
I really like that.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:25.200
And it was more about blending together old samples and stuff like that.
00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:27.440
Like that seemed really amazing to me.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:28.000
Yeah.
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:31.440
And actually, I didn't honestly get my own until college.
00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:35.759
Like I knew people who had turntables and I would just use theirs and stuff like that.
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:36.079
Yeah.
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:45.359
But then this guy who I worked with at NHS, this guy Tosh Woods, who's like an awesome designer, he designed for Santa Cruz and a bunch of other brands there.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.119
And he was a really good DJ and he like sold me his old techniques.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:56.799
I moved to New York and ended up selling everything and was more just into music.
00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:58.240
I always just been into music.
00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:02.160
And I would make mixtapes, meaning like just collecting songs together.
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:13.519
Only recently I got into using CDJs, being able to actually DJ again just using a USB stick because having solo my vinyl, I thought I wouldn't be able to DJ again.
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:17.680
And then I never had really room for vinyl in New York City or even now in Tokyo.
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:21.039
But with CDJs, like you just need a USB stick.
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:22.640
And then you can, it's just up to you.
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:24.559
Like you can get music online.
00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:31.680
You can have a huge record collection if you want to, but it's more just like up to your taste and not just limited by what you can physically acquire or store.
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:38.480
I did actually in high school, I got a Yamaha CS1X or something like that.
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:41.599
This like blue synthesizer with some knobs on it.
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:44.559
And yeah, I would try to make hip-hop beats on my computer.
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:48.799
I had cube base and I wished I had an MPC, but I had some friends with one.
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:50.720
I would just make beats on the computer.
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:52.079
Yeah, that was super fun.
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:53.200
I did a bunch of that.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:55.680
I was never really good, but I enjoyed trying.
00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:58.400
And you played a few gigs, even here in Japan, right?
00:25:58.480 --> 00:25:58.640
Yeah.
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:01.759
I mean the local sort of bars and yeah, totally.
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:09.920
I got to DJ, I DJ'd in Shibuya like a year ago, and then I did a few gigs in Nakamegaro and Daikanyama.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:12.880
And yeah, I'm hoping to do more.
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:19.200
And actually, when I was just back in Hawaii for like around Christmas and New Year's, I DJ'd a couple times out there too.
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:21.359
Did you DJ at the Surf Poets event?
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:25.839
I DJed at a there's a bar called Bevy, an event called Nokia City.
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:28.160
And my friend Ashley invited me to DJ there.
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:31.359
And then also at a place called Fish Cake, that was like a daytime gig.
00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:34.640
You can download CJ's mixtapes here.
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:38.160
We've got the Worldwide Waveform Network SoundCloud channel.
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:40.880
So go download the mixes if you want to give it a listen.
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:43.359
I think I've listened to your sunset or your sunrise.
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:43.839
One of the two.
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:44.559
You've got two there.
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:52.160
And actually, the two gigs I played in Hawaii, one was more like the sunset kind of vibe, like more kind of electronic and clubby.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:59.039
And then the other gig was a daytime gig and it was more sunrise and like analog instruments and work soul and boogie and that kind of stuff.
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:03.279
I think that there's also, I can send you a link because I think that was recorded too.
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:04.000
So you can check that out.
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:04.720
That'd be great.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:05.279
Yeah.
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:05.839
That'll be awesome.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:07.759
Thanks to Kenny for recording that one.
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:15.839
We talk about Wabi Sabi and the humanness in design and particularly typeface with the acceleration of AI.
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:18.400
You probably knew this question was coming up.
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:37.519
With the acceleration of AI and the amount of noise around that, from your perspective, what can't be changed when it comes to typeface design and the emergence of AI and the amount of AI being used within the design set?
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:51.680
Yeah, my perspective on it is I love to do things that are more human, more personal, and more rooted in specificity, rooted, connected to specific cultures and people.
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:55.279
That's what I'm personally interested in as a consumer.
00:27:55.519 --> 00:28:04.000
And I realize that at the end of the day, I'm designing for myself or someone like me, someone with my interests when I make typefaces.
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:07.119
I'm also a graphic designer who uses typefaces.
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:11.039
So I essentially designed for something that I would want to use.
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:17.680
I had the opportunity to work with Sig Zane on an Aloha shirt or for the company Sigzane Designs.
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:23.519
And I designed a typeface collection for that project called the Opua typeface collection.
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:29.599
And that was like trying to design something that was rooted specifically in Hawaii.
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:36.720
The design ended up having three different main styles: the Opua Mauka, which is towards the mountains.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:40.319
It's more rigid, angular, and kind of sturdy design.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:43.440
Opua makai, which means towards the ocean.
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:45.680
And that one's wavy and flowing.
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:51.279
And the designs are influenced specifically by the way water flows and things like that.
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:55.599
Even with the letter F specifically, there was a certain curb I was going for.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:02.799
And I remembered dropping in it off the wall and the shape of the wave at that specific spot.
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:12.000
And I literally drew the curve of the F to match that one specific spot just because I could see that shape in my mind and I know that I'd seen it before.
00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:16.240
And then another style called Opua Koolao, which is the windward side of the island.
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:20.720
So that design has popped up in a bunch of different places.
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:26.799
And I feel like that kind of thing, it's more specific and more rooted.
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:28.559
And I think people respond to that.
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:34.079
And I think that connecting with specific, in that case, like connecting to the land, right?
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:35.599
I think that stands out.
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:38.079
And I think that kind of breaks through the noise.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:46.640
And actually that design, specifically the Opua Mauka style, right now it's being used for the WSL like pipe challenger contest.
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:48.960
It's on the jerseys, it's the logo.
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:51.119
There's a poster on the broadcast.
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.200
They have it in the corner of everything.
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.400
And so that was incredible for me to see.
00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:02.960
There's a designer named Kelsey Ige who was commissioned by WSL to design that whole campaign.
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:08.880
She was familiar with that typeface and she was just waiting for the right project to use this typeface on.
00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:16.480
And then it ended up being this contest at Pipeline, which was like so epic for me to see, having gone to contests at pipe since I was a little kid.
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:26.640
So, like to me, that's the solution, or that's what I'm interested in doing, is making things for specific communities, communities that I'm connected to.
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:35.759
And I feel like if I do that, then like me as a consumer, that's what I would want to purchase and that's what I would want to support.
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:48.720
It's not because you can say that couldn't be made using some technology, but it's more like I'm putting myself and like my background and places that are special to me into my work.
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:57.680
And I think that stands out and I think that resonates with people and they can see like the humanness and uh so that's what I hope to offer and to kind of cut through the sameness.
00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:08.240
I think if people are looking for something that looks like what's already been done, then I think AI technology is really good at making things that look like something you've seen before.
00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:24.240
Whereas if you want to make something that is more specific and has qualities that connect to specific places or things like that, then I think it's less likely that that's going to come out of AI, which is recycling what's already been done versus breaking outside of what's been done.
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:44.720
Yeah, you essentially are representative of a community and the connect between, as you say, the land, the ocean, and the narrative that comes with that is clearly evident and resonates with your community and the people that it's presented to simply because it's born from ultimately the land and in this case the ocean.
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:57.039
And I think that what's going to be most interesting to everyone watching is the amount of care and humanness and thought and love and energy that goes into typeface design and graphic design.
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:02.799
It's been an absolute pleasure being able to scratch the surface of the iceberg and delve into your mind.
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:10.720
Super interesting, CJ, and I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to explain to us just what drives you, your passions.
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:12.880
And as I said, all the links are down below.
00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:16.480
Get involved and try and understand typeface a little bit more.
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:17.599
Thank you very much, CJ.
00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:18.480
It's been awesome for it.
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:19.759
Thank you for share it, Mahala.
00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:05.120
Welcome to another episode of the Vast Lives Podcast.
00:00:05.519 --> 00:00:11.039
In this episode, we're on the steps of a cafe in Kijioji, Tokyo, Japan.
00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:22.399
This conversation follows DJ Dunn, a typeface designer from Oahu, Hawaii, now moving between Honolulu, California, New York, and Tokyo.
00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:29.839
His father taught him architectural lettering as a child, and that influence still runs through his work.
00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:34.880
An unlikely marriage of the analytical and the aesthetic.
00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:43.439
CJ traces his path from a teenage skate rat, punctured, and all back to the ocean, and eventually to Thai.
00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:55.759
We land on his proudest project, a typeface rooted in Hawaii that found its way unprompted onto the jerseys of the WSL's Pipe Challenger Surfing Series.
00:00:56.479 --> 00:01:00.640
Full circle for a kid who grew up watching contests at Pipeline.
00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:10.239
It's a conversation about lineage, architectural, cultural, creative, and what it means to put your own history into the shape of a letter.
00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:15.920
So let's dive right in for this next episode of the Vast Lives Podcast.
00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:20.959
Lovely to sit here in the basking sun.
00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:21.359
Yeah.
00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:23.040
Downtown Tokyo.
00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:24.079
In your neighborhood, I believe.
00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:26.719
Ichijoji, that's what it's called.
00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:29.760
Why have you chosen this neighborhood specifically?
00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:39.760
So I was in Japan as a university student, and a friend from university lived here for the last 12 years, and I would always come visit him here.
00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:41.200
And I just really liked it.
00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:45.359
When I wanted to move to Japan, I thought that's where I want to live in Kichijoji.
00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:49.280
We took a stroll down the road and you get that what's the little thrift stores?
00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:50.879
It's got a little homely vibe.
00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:54.159
So yeah, there's a lot of artists historically in Kichijoji.
00:01:54.239 --> 00:02:00.560
My friend told me that there were like some manga publishers since maybe the 70s or earlier.
00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:04.879
And so just a lot of artists would come here that would be working for those companies.
00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:08.960
And then even if they quit or were freelance or whatever, they would just stick around the neighborhood.
00:02:09.039 --> 00:02:14.479
And then their friends would move and it became this thing where just it was just known that like artists live around here.
00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:18.800
So yeah, you see a lot of creativity and a lot of people that I meet are also artists.
00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:19.599
So good for that.
00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:20.800
Creative hub.
00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:21.759
Yeah, totally.
00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:24.159
You can get that energy, as I say, as you walk through.
00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:25.520
You can feel it in the air.
00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:32.560
But if I were to meet you at one of these bars or at a party, how would you like introduce yourself to me?
00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:39.520
Normally I would if people ask what I do, I just say graphic design because it's the simple answer.
00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:47.520
But if people are more interested, or if they're like another creative person, then I'll let them know that I actually design typefaces primarily.
00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:51.919
I also do work with logos and lettering, like anything to do with letters, really.
00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:58.080
But yeah, I think you if you lead with typeface designer, then people get confused.
00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:03.840
The average person is like, or like you say typography, they think it's something to do with maps or some, yeah.
00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:05.919
Anyway, you like have you seen the movie Helvetica?
00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:06.639
And then they like it.
00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:06.960
Yeah.
00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:07.360
Totally.
00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:07.599
Yeah.
00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:13.120
Some people have that's like a common touch point, which thanks to that movie, I have a lot less explaining to do.
00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:13.599
Yes.
00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:18.879
About that there actually are people who design typefaces because it showcases a bunch of them in that movie.
00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:21.919
Yeah, I'd love to get into chatting about typefaces.
00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:23.840
But specifically Hawaii.
00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:24.639
Yes, yeah.
00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:27.280
I was born in Kahuku, Hawaii on the North Shore.
00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:39.439
I didn't grow up on the North Shore though, but I always feel a connection when I go back there, and we have a bunch of friends on that side, but primarily grew up in town, Paua Valley specifically, and then Kaimu Kee.
00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:43.120
So yeah, that's Hawaii's definitely my home.
00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:47.039
I spent time living in California also, and then New York after that.
00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:51.039
But yeah, Hawaii's for sure like the place that feels most like home to me.
00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:56.639
So from a very young age, were you always could you like identify your creative side from quite a young age?
00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:06.000
But like in school, like I really liked math, and I was like always like kind of technical things and computers and things like that.
00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:14.879
But my dad went to architecture school in Hawaii, yeah, University of Hawaii, and he would always give me art supplies, he would do lettering with me.
00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:22.639
There was a certain way of writing the alphabet for architecture drawings, and he would get me to practice writing letters that way.
00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:27.040
And I think he would always take us to art shows, museums, anything like that.
00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:29.360
That was a huge influence for my dad.
00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:40.639
And then, so I think eventually, like around high school, I got more into art myself, but I always I wasn't one of those kids who was just really good at drawing naturally.
00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:46.639
Like I knew kids who could draw comic books like Marvel comic style and all that stuff, and that was not me at all.
00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:53.199
But it came later, and I think the influence from my dad rubbed off on me and eventually presented itself.
00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:53.680
Yeah.
00:04:54.000 --> 00:05:01.279
It's really cool how your father played such a big role and ultimately coming from an architectural sort of heritage.
00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:04.399
But yeah, amazing to have that influence from your dad.
00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:04.800
Yeah.
00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:08.639
And also equally interesting that you had such an interest in math.
00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:08.959
Yeah.
00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:14.240
Because you don't ordinarily have a creative that has such an interest in math, rather.
00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:19.439
And so I think, oh, okay, that's why I do typeface design, because there is like a kind of technical side.
00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:24.079
And actually, architecture has that kind of creative and technical aspect as well.
00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:24.560
Yes.
00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:29.120
I've shared a studio with some architects in New York and gotten to know a bunch of architects.
00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:38.399
And I think I I feel a real kinship with architects because they are trying to make beautiful things, but they essentially have to function even more than a typeface.
00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:40.720
Like the building has to not fall down.
00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:44.560
There's very like serious technical requirements for making a building.
00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:55.759
And for typefaces, it's no one's gonna get crushed by the typeface not working properly, but maybe you can't read it as well, or there's actually a bunch of kind of technical things like required to make that work.
00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:59.920
So I feel like once I got into type design, that it really clicked.
00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:12.639
It's interesting because as I say, one would not normally associate it with someone who's analytical, but in art, if we consider some of the the Mondrians of the world, and a lot of them worked on the mean ratio.
00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:26.000
And so there is definitely a connect in terms of the use of numbers and ratios to get something that is pleasing to one's eye, and without even knowing it when the viewer is looking at a typeface, what sort of feeling it evokes.
00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:34.800
And I suppose the technical side of the design, the structured side of the design is what evokes those feelings, right?
00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:36.079
Yeah, I think so.
00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:50.879
And I think in also like in graphic design in general, there's a lot of like when there's like kind of a nice symmetry or things perfectly balanced, but with some one part slightly off, like a gestalt kind of idea.
00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:52.879
There's a lot of that stuff from the Bauhaus.
00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:59.920
Yeah, I was a big influence on modernism and design and rationalizing some of these aesthetic principles.
00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:08.079
But one thing that I learned, because actually before I started doing design, I was doing fine art, painting, drawing, printmaking.
00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:13.199
My teachers would always say the final deciding factor needs to be your eye.
00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:16.720
We did a lot of work just really training our eyes to make those decisions.
00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:26.720
And even with typeface design was something as technical and seemingly as mathematical as type design, your eye has to make the final call.
00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:36.480
There's things that you find out that there's all kinds of optical illusions and things that would seem like these two shapes should measure to be the same width or height.
00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:42.319
But if you have them mathematically perfect, they actually don't look quite right.
00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:46.240
And you have to make these kind of optical corrections really using your eye.
00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:52.800
So that's the thing I really like about it is it's this kind of push and pull between the aesthetic and the technical.
00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:55.040
Yeah, that is super cool.
00:07:55.120 --> 00:08:08.959
You're having to go beyond the constraints of structured design and just use your what's the word, intuition, your design eye, intuition of the eye to round it off and to complete what that typeface is going to look like.
00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:20.240
Yeah, I think it's also, I think your eye in that type in that sense is like a visual muscle that it's personally, I think of it as different than intuition.
00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:26.319
Over time, you can train this muscle in your eye, which is actually really good at judging visual things.
00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:35.840
It's really good at judging balance, it's really good at judging how thick and thin something is and what looks pleasing, but it's something that you build up over time and practice.
00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:50.639
And I've had a lot of really amazing teachers that will have exercises that we'll do, and then you build up that muscle of your eye at judging those things, and then you're just using that instead of using a measuring tape, you're using your eye measurement.
00:08:51.360 --> 00:09:01.679
I think for the viewers, it's gonna be particularly interesting because I didn't even think of an eye muscle, a trained eye muscle when it comes to design, but it does make sense.
00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:04.240
I'm a Neutra fan when it comes to architecture.
00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:04.879
Oh yeah.
00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:10.320
And I love cubism and so all this kind of really resonates with me.
00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:15.039
Growing up, were you did you tow the line or were you a little bit of a kickback rebel?
00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:18.000
Yeah, I definitely had a rebellious side.
00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:23.600
I think I started surfing when I was maybe nine on a like actual surfboard.
00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:26.080
Before that, I was just like bodyboarding and stuff like that.
00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:31.759
Right before high school, I got really into skateboarding and punk rock and kind of stopped surfing for a while.
00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:36.000
There's some kind of part of me that thought like it was cooler to skate.
00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:41.039
Honestly, looking back at it, I feel like it was some reflection of the surf industry at the time.
00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:43.840
It seemed a little like too clean-cut for me.
00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:47.679
And I was, my friends and I were just like kind of dirty skate rats.
00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:53.120
That was like the rebellious side, and we just wanted to go to punk shows and mosh and jump off of stairs and stuff.
00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:58.559
And the kind of clean-cut, like mid-90s surf industry, like didn't quite like gel with us.
00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:00.240
There's some exceptions to that.
00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:08.240
Like I had Vulcan videos actually, and they what I loved is they had surfing and skateboarding and snowboarding in one video, and I could really see the connection there.
00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:13.440
But yeah, for sure, that was the more like rebellious side of me, was like the kind of skate rat.
00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:30.720
I think the inner creative in you as well, you know, we think of skateboarding, we think of Dogtown and Z Boys and Tony Elvin, the graphics and the connect with art and design within the skate industry, like all the way through, probably is what would also interested you more.
00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:33.440
So then the surfing side of the art world.
00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:39.919
Like the 80s surfing in Hawaii was like the coolest thing ever, and I loved it.
00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:49.360
And it was interesting because also like that culture, like brands like HIC and local motion and TNC, like they were popular like around the world.
00:10:49.600 --> 00:11:05.039
And like I love that era of surf still, like these bright colors and like the script of local motion, like looking at the icon of HIC and realizing there's a face in there, a volcano, and there's like all this cool stuff like happening.
00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:06.000
I love that stuff.
00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:10.720
That made a huge impact on me, like visually, and just thinking about what graphics could be could be like.
00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:33.440
But then it kind of lined up when I was getting more into art and creative pursuits, happened to be like my lining up with my skate interests, and really it was kind of like seeing like the early stages of the kind of 90s like skate wave, like after the 80s, kind of big jump ramp or like big vert ramps and jump ramp stuff kind of died off.
00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:37.759
And then like the big pants, small wheels era of skateboarding was coming in.
00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:45.679
And skateboarding really was like an outsider thing at that point, it wasn't really part of the mainstream at that point, and so yeah, I was at the perfect age to click in with that.
00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:50.720
And the graphics were really, I feel like, doing really interesting things.
00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:58.240
Like the 80s had like really cool skate graphics for sure, like all the Santa Cruz and Jim Phillips graphics.
00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:08.080
But I feel like there was a certain, I don't know, the mid-90s skate graphics thing people just do like weird off-the-wall things, more weirdo stuff because it wasn't mainstream.
00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:09.679
That really influenced me a lot.
00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:18.720
And actually, the first time I realized what graphic design was, it was I was trying to figure out like how do you get your art onto a skateboard?
00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.080
And someone told me, oh, that's what a graphic designer does.
00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:31.200
And they draw something and then they use some different methods, processes, and then they can deliver that to the factory, and then your art will be on a board.
00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:33.039
And so I said, I want to do that.
00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:36.000
That's really the first time I had some inkling that I want it.
00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:39.440
Do you remember when it used to be called DTP, desktop publishers?
00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:40.000
Exactly.
00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:40.639
I remember that.
00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:43.440
That was my first, I did my first diploma in DTP.
00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:46.639
But going back to the skating, when I was in Hawaii, I was like texting Jun.
00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:50.799
I'm like, dude, is that that opening scene on Finding Animal Chin?
00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:51.519
Wallows.
00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:52.480
Wallows.
00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:53.840
Is it still good to skate?
00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:56.480
And he's like that's a little bit run down, but yeah.
00:12:56.960 --> 00:12:58.960
Arguably it was never good to skate, if you ask them.
00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:00.720
Yes, it was always super rough.
00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:02.240
Those guys made it look good.
00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:14.159
Uh crazy story is like when I was a kid, my dad's friend was a skate and surf photographer, and he told us they're gonna have a demo at this school in Hawaii.
00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:23.840
And then after I think it was 86 or something like that, there's a demo in New Valley School with jump ramps and stuff, and then those guys all went to skate walla's after that.
00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:30.639
And I found the thrasher when that was covered, and my dad actually had some photos that he shot of that day.
00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:36.480
And looking back, I saw, okay, there's Tommy Guerrero, there's a young Mark Gonzalez.
00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:36.639
Yeah.
00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:48.480
Christian Hasoy was there, and he took one photo of Christian Hasoy going off a jump ramp and the young baby Grom Mark Gonzalez turning and looking up at Christian Hasoy doing an air.
00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:50.480
And like we still have those photos.
00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:59.840
So that was like we got exposed to that at a young age, and we had those photos just up on my wall, and I would just look at it like, oh my God, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen.
00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:01.279
And I didn't even know who they were.
00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:05.200
I just could tell like this was an epic day that I saw in front of me.
00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:11.360
To be able to get so close to 80s and 90s skate heroes was quite something at that age, right?
00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:12.159
Huge influence.
00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:19.679
What's nuts is I got to meet Christian Hussoy later in New York, and I got to show him that photo, and he was like, Oh, no way.
00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:23.279
He just started telling me stories about that day, and he's oh, can you send that to me?
00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:26.799
And so I texted him the photos that my dad took of that day.
00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:28.960
So it was just like a kind of nice full circle moment.
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:30.080
Absolutely incredible.
00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:30.399
Yeah.
00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:34.720
I grew up much the same, just like posters of Tony Alba on the wall.
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:44.799
And then two years ago, I was in California and I got to, at one point, I was late at night sitting between Tony Alba and Steven Duran, and I was just one of those like full circle moments for me.
00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:47.120
I got to hang with Tony for the day.
00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:54.000
When designing a typeface, what's the first non-obvious decision that shapes everything that kind of follows?
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:56.879
Type design is all about systems.
00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:57.279
Yeah.
00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:04.639
The way it was explained to me is if you have too few parts, the design looks repetitive.
00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:09.039
And if you have too many parts, it doesn't feel like a cohesive system.
00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:16.559
So I think the trying to figure out what the system is is super important.
00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:23.840
But also if there's some part that breaks the system, that's also I think a uh important part of the design.
00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.759
I had a teacher named Ed Bangat, and he was a super well-known designer.
00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:34.799
And his thing, he would say, make a system and stick to it everywhere except for one place.
00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:39.600
And then people will notice that one place and they'll say, He did something different there.
00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:41.279
Oh, that's really interesting.
00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:45.440
So it's almost like a wabi-sabi kind of idea.
00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:46.000
Yeah.
00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:51.120
Um and he would show in his typefaces, which are used everywhere.
00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:52.960
Like his last name is Bang Gat.
00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:57.679
There's a typeface named after him that he designed, and that's now being used for stranger things.
00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:00.320
And it's been used for tons of stuff over the years.
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.600
But his work, he died a few years ago, but his work lives on.
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:12.639
And you can see in that typeface, he would point out, like, oh yeah, see, here's the whole system I did, but here's this one place where I changed it, and that's what makes it interesting.
00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:18.080
And just deciding where you follow the system and where you break it and how you break it.
00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:25.279
And that's something I think that I uh look to in like my own work and to other people's work.
00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:44.480
Yeah, embracing the imperfection, what the wabisabi way of design, embracing small bits of imperfection as part of the design and being okay with that, and as you say, like almost purposefully creating that difference within the system.
00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:46.159
Yeah, I think it is.
00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:48.240
It's it should be on purpose.
00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:54.480
I think there's sometimes where you can set yourself up where you're like open to different things happening, right?
00:16:54.639 --> 00:17:00.240
But I think at some point you are choosing to keep that.
00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:28.400
So actually, I did these shirts for Vast, and I I wanted to make these wavy letters, like I'm wearing the shirt now, and I had an idea that like the system was like the line goes down and it has two waves, two parts in the line where it has this wave in there, and that it's a consistent angle, and I was just using like a broad edge marker, and so you get this the kind of consistent shape of the line, consistent width.
00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:42.160
And then I gave myself like grid lines to go off of, but then within those constraints, like I was just open to what would happen like while I'm holding that pen, specifically like the letter S in that design.
00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:54.960
There's a shape that came out, like I was just kind of moving my arm, following the angle and making a kind of a wave at the grid line that I made for myself.
00:17:55.200 --> 00:18:05.279
But the way that I ended up having to curve the S to make it look like an S within those constraints, like I honestly wouldn't have thought to do that on a computer.
00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:10.319
It was just like what the pen needed to do within these constraints that I set up for myself.
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:14.319
And so that was a cool moment because I set up this system.
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:22.400
But then I don't know if it was an exception or it's just like really the tool had to do something to look like an S within these parameters.
00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:28.319
I made a bunch of them, but there was one in particular that just jumped out to me and I was like, okay, that's the one.
00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:34.480
And a computer like distorting a letter at that angle or having a programmed wave.
00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:39.359
Like if you took a normal S and then you just did these transformations to it, it wouldn't have made that shape.
00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:51.839
But there was a moment where it was just basically the pen in that system and in my eye, bypassing my brain, just going straight from my eye to my hand and then seeing what happens.
00:18:52.000 --> 00:19:00.559
So yeah, in that whole design, that's like the one letter that I feel like stands out and it did something unexpected that I embraced.
00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:03.680
Yeah, you've done a couple of collaborations with VAST in the past.
00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.599
I think of the Worldwide Waveform Network that we're reigniting at the moment.
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:08.880
We're getting that going again.
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:12.640
And ironically, we're actually launching your mixtape again this week.
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:22.079
And we're trying to get a little bit more movement and energy around the concept of the Worldwide Waveform Network and have sound be a part of VAST.
00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:24.640
So there's that that you did on behalf of Vast.
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:26.000
There's this particular design.
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:27.680
Has that typeface got a name?
00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.799
Yeah, so this started as just lettering.
00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:41.200
So, like in in the type design world, they make a distinction between like lettering is like a one-off piece where you just do the letters you need for one word or a couple words.
00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:50.559
And then a typeface is when you actually take those and you fill out like the whole character set and you make it so that the letters are designed to be repeated.
00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:56.319
And so this the letters on this shirt was started just it says nature always wins.
00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:58.400
And I only drew those letters.
00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:02.480
But after I had done that, I was looking at it and I thought, you know what?
00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:07.440
This is a crazy lettering style, but maybe it could work as an actual typeface.
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:18.160
And the letters had to be changed, but I kind of went through it and really made the system work and ended up calling that typeface Belzy Land, named after my favorite spot to surf on the North Shore.
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:19.119
Belzix, yeah.
00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:19.440
Yeah.
00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:22.079
That's a cool little story.
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:22.799
Yeah.
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:31.359
One kind of fun thing, too, is it's been interesting to see how that typeface, once I released it, how it's been viewed by other people.
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:34.559
And Belzy Land is one of them that's in the creative cloud.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:41.920
And so after that got included, Adidas skateboarding used it for this awesome video called Paraiso.
00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:45.759
I grew up skateboarding and literally wear Adidas skateboard shoes.
00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:47.359
And then they chose my font.
00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:50.319
I don't even know who the graphic designer was who chose it.
00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:52.400
It wasn't a buddy of mine or anything.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:57.279
But then it just popped up on a skate video and my friend said it to me, hey, isn't that your font on there?
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:01.599
That's been super cool to see that resonated with someone over at Adidas skateboarding.
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:03.039
Some validation there.
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:12.319
Sometimes big brands will use my fonts, like BIC, the lighter company, is using one of my fonts called Dunbar for a bunch of their global branding, which is awesome.
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:19.200
But I have to say, when I see it something I'm used for a skate company or something like that, it means even more.
00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:25.200
Or even local Hawaii businesses and places in Hawaii using my fonts, it's always going to mean more to me.
00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:28.960
So, but yeah, that's kind of the origin story of this one called Belzy Land.
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:33.599
It started from this project with Vast and went on to be used by people like Adidas.
00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:39.279
Recently, also our film organization in Hawaii called Undercurrents that just started up is using it.
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:42.079
Sig Zane's shop, Sigon Smith.
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:47.279
They just launched a shirt on Friday, like a few days ago, using that same font for the first time.
00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:49.599
So it's like it's popping up all over.
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:51.680
And that's been a really nice thing to see.
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:53.599
How do you come up with the names for Yota?
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:56.960
Naming is one of the hardest things about type design, honestly.
00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:59.519
So DeLorean is actually a plugin.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:02.960
For this font software called RoboFonts.
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:04.480
But maybe I should make DeLorean.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:06.960
I wonder if I would get in trouble from the old company.
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:10.720
But as an extension, I don't think they're gonna, it's just a piece of software that's free.
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:13.359
So I don't think anyone's gonna care about that, hopefully.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:24.559
But yeah, but yeah, no, that's the thing is certain names are already used, certain names you have to be aware of something like that if it's associated with a big brand that might not want someone else to use that name.
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:33.359
But yeah, Belzy Land, it's I made this lettering style that I made into the first it started for Vast, and so it was already connected to surfing.
00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.039
And I always loved the way that Belzy Land sounded.
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:41.279
And I surfed there probably more than anywhere on the North Shore.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:50.799
And also another important thing for a typeface name is it's it should have letters that look good in that typeface.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:56.000
So for example, Belzy land, I think the V looks kind of cool, the A looks kind of cool.
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:58.640
Like it has a couple key letters in there.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:15.440
Cause if you had something that was just all straight lines, like H's and L's and something like that, then you don't really get to show off the unique character of that typeface because most designs that like H and L are kind of straight lines, you can't really show what's unique about it.
00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:19.920
But Velzy Land had enough unique characters that it I thought it was a good name.
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:24.400
So there's a connect through another layer, which is sound.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:24.960
Yes.
00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:36.000
V Velzyland, the way in which it sounds, the connect through the visual, which now brings me on to your love for music and mixing and when did that start?
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:39.519
I started actually probably when I was 14.
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:44.400
I knew people who were DJs or some older kids had turntables and stuff like that.
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:47.839
And at my school, it was like in photo class.
00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:50.079
There's a photo lab and there was a turntable.
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:52.240
It was just a normal ass turntable.
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:59.200
And my friend and I would just fuck around and scratch on a turntable, and we would just kind of go in there and try to scratch a record.
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:03.839
And then eventually I got turntables later and kind of learned how to DJ a little bit.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:06.319
And I would do beat juggling with hip-hop records.
00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:08.160
I'd buy doubles of records and stuff like that.
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:11.440
So Beastie Boys, I'm thinking Beastie Boys might have been an influence.
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:13.519
DJ Shadow, DJ Crush.
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:18.960
I feel like that first DJ Shadow record, like he would scratch, but it like was super tastefully done.
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:21.119
And it wasn't just like over the top.
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:21.920
I really like that.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:25.200
And it was more about blending together old samples and stuff like that.
00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:27.440
Like that seemed really amazing to me.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:28.000
Yeah.
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:31.440
And actually, I didn't honestly get my own until college.
00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:35.759
Like I knew people who had turntables and I would just use theirs and stuff like that.
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:36.079
Yeah.
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:45.359
But then this guy who I worked with at NHS, this guy Tosh Woods, who's like an awesome designer, he designed for Santa Cruz and a bunch of other brands there.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.119
And he was a really good DJ and he like sold me his old techniques.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:56.799
I moved to New York and ended up selling everything and was more just into music.
00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:58.240
I always just been into music.
00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:02.160
And I would make mixtapes, meaning like just collecting songs together.
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:13.519
Only recently I got into using CDJs, being able to actually DJ again just using a USB stick because having solo my vinyl, I thought I wouldn't be able to DJ again.
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:17.680
And then I never had really room for vinyl in New York City or even now in Tokyo.
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:21.039
But with CDJs, like you just need a USB stick.
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:22.640
And then you can, it's just up to you.
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:24.559
Like you can get music online.
00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:31.680
You can have a huge record collection if you want to, but it's more just like up to your taste and not just limited by what you can physically acquire or store.
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:38.480
I did actually in high school, I got a Yamaha CS1X or something like that.
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:41.599
This like blue synthesizer with some knobs on it.
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:44.559
And yeah, I would try to make hip-hop beats on my computer.
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:48.799
I had cube base and I wished I had an MPC, but I had some friends with one.
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:50.720
I would just make beats on the computer.
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:52.079
Yeah, that was super fun.
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:53.200
I did a bunch of that.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:55.680
I was never really good, but I enjoyed trying.
00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:58.400
And you played a few gigs, even here in Japan, right?
00:25:58.480 --> 00:25:58.640
Yeah.
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:01.759
I mean the local sort of bars and yeah, totally.
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:09.920
I got to DJ, I DJ'd in Shibuya like a year ago, and then I did a few gigs in Nakamegaro and Daikanyama.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:12.880
And yeah, I'm hoping to do more.
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:19.200
And actually, when I was just back in Hawaii for like around Christmas and New Year's, I DJ'd a couple times out there too.
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:21.359
Did you DJ at the Surf Poets event?
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:25.839
I DJed at a there's a bar called Bevy, an event called Nokia City.
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:28.160
And my friend Ashley invited me to DJ there.
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:31.359
And then also at a place called Fish Cake, that was like a daytime gig.
00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:34.640
You can download CJ's mixtapes here.
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:38.160
We've got the Worldwide Waveform Network SoundCloud channel.
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:40.880
So go download the mixes if you want to give it a listen.
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:43.359
I think I've listened to your sunset or your sunrise.
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:43.839
One of the two.
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:44.559
You've got two there.
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:52.160
And actually, the two gigs I played in Hawaii, one was more like the sunset kind of vibe, like more kind of electronic and clubby.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:59.039
And then the other gig was a daytime gig and it was more sunrise and like analog instruments and work soul and boogie and that kind of stuff.
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:03.279
I think that there's also, I can send you a link because I think that was recorded too.
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:04.000
So you can check that out.
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:04.720
That'd be great.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:05.279
Yeah.
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:05.839
That'll be awesome.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:07.759
Thanks to Kenny for recording that one.
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:15.839
We talk about Wabi Sabi and the humanness in design and particularly typeface with the acceleration of AI.
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:18.400
You probably knew this question was coming up.
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:37.519
With the acceleration of AI and the amount of noise around that, from your perspective, what can't be changed when it comes to typeface design and the emergence of AI and the amount of AI being used within the design set?
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:51.680
Yeah, my perspective on it is I love to do things that are more human, more personal, and more rooted in specificity, rooted, connected to specific cultures and people.
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:55.279
That's what I'm personally interested in as a consumer.
00:27:55.519 --> 00:28:04.000
And I realize that at the end of the day, I'm designing for myself or someone like me, someone with my interests when I make typefaces.
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:07.119
I'm also a graphic designer who uses typefaces.
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:11.039
So I essentially designed for something that I would want to use.
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:17.680
I had the opportunity to work with Sig Zane on an Aloha shirt or for the company Sigzane Designs.
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:23.519
And I designed a typeface collection for that project called the Opua typeface collection.
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:29.599
And that was like trying to design something that was rooted specifically in Hawaii.
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:36.720
The design ended up having three different main styles: the Opua Mauka, which is towards the mountains.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:40.319
It's more rigid, angular, and kind of sturdy design.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:43.440
Opua makai, which means towards the ocean.
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:45.680
And that one's wavy and flowing.
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:51.279
And the designs are influenced specifically by the way water flows and things like that.
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:55.599
Even with the letter F specifically, there was a certain curb I was going for.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:02.799
And I remembered dropping in it off the wall and the shape of the wave at that specific spot.
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:12.000
And I literally drew the curve of the F to match that one specific spot just because I could see that shape in my mind and I know that I'd seen it before.
00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:16.240
And then another style called Opua Koolao, which is the windward side of the island.
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:20.720
So that design has popped up in a bunch of different places.
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:26.799
And I feel like that kind of thing, it's more specific and more rooted.
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:28.559
And I think people respond to that.
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:34.079
And I think that connecting with specific, in that case, like connecting to the land, right?
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:35.599
I think that stands out.
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:38.079
And I think that kind of breaks through the noise.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:46.640
And actually that design, specifically the Opua Mauka style, right now it's being used for the WSL like pipe challenger contest.
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:48.960
It's on the jerseys, it's the logo.
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:51.119
There's a poster on the broadcast.
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.200
They have it in the corner of everything.
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.400
And so that was incredible for me to see.
00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:02.960
There's a designer named Kelsey Ige who was commissioned by WSL to design that whole campaign.
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:08.880
She was familiar with that typeface and she was just waiting for the right project to use this typeface on.
00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:16.480
And then it ended up being this contest at Pipeline, which was like so epic for me to see, having gone to contests at pipe since I was a little kid.
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:26.640
So, like to me, that's the solution, or that's what I'm interested in doing, is making things for specific communities, communities that I'm connected to.
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:35.759
And I feel like if I do that, then like me as a consumer, that's what I would want to purchase and that's what I would want to support.
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:48.720
It's not because you can say that couldn't be made using some technology, but it's more like I'm putting myself and like my background and places that are special to me into my work.
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:57.680
And I think that stands out and I think that resonates with people and they can see like the humanness and uh so that's what I hope to offer and to kind of cut through the sameness.
00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:08.240
I think if people are looking for something that looks like what's already been done, then I think AI technology is really good at making things that look like something you've seen before.
00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:24.240
Whereas if you want to make something that is more specific and has qualities that connect to specific places or things like that, then I think it's less likely that that's going to come out of AI, which is recycling what's already been done versus breaking outside of what's been done.
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:44.720
Yeah, you essentially are representative of a community and the connect between, as you say, the land, the ocean, and the narrative that comes with that is clearly evident and resonates with your community and the people that it's presented to simply because it's born from ultimately the land and in this case the ocean.
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:57.039
And I think that what's going to be most interesting to everyone watching is the amount of care and humanness and thought and love and energy that goes into typeface design and graphic design.
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:02.799
It's been an absolute pleasure being able to scratch the surface of the iceberg and delve into your mind.
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:10.720
Super interesting, CJ, and I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to explain to us just what drives you, your passions.
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:12.880
And as I said, all the links are down below.
00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:16.480
Get involved and try and understand typeface a little bit more.
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:17.599
Thank you very much, CJ.
00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:18.480
It's been awesome for it.
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:19.759
Thank you for share it, Mahala.
