What Gets Between Us and Peace? Psychedelics, Ego, Love & Consciousness with Jonathan Robinson

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Everything is now unity, and imagination is now manifestation. Welcome
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to Unity Manifest Podcast. Here is your host, Gary Cacciolillo.
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Enjoy the experience.
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Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Unity Manifest Podcast. Today,
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our guest is Jonathan Robinson, and he has... written quite
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a few books, some of them on consciousness, some of
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them on relationships, some of them on dogs, some of
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them on MDA, some of them on miracles. So there's
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a whole lot to talk about. Thank you for coming
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on today.
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Looking forward to it, Gary.
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So we start from the beginning. What introduced you to
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this subject matter?
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Well, um, Usually what gets people involved in consciousness and
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exploration is suffering. So I was blessed to have a
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difficult childhood. And that led to a law of exploration.
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I was meditating by the time I was 14. I
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was doing psychedelics by 16. I got to study psychedelics
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in a graduate school. And then I found out that
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I can write. So 16 books later... I became the
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leading facilitator on MDMA therapy. I've taught maybe 500 healers
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on a specific protocol to help people overcome anxiety, trauma, addiction,
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usually in one day.
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I guess psychedelics, I've read some McKenna and some of
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that things. One of the things I guess I'm going
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to ask right off the bat is, does a psychedelic
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change our perception of reality and what we're seeing or
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reality itself, or is it just altering our brain chemistry
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or some combination of both?
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I'd say some combination. You know, our brain is always
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limiting what we see because to be aware of everything
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would not be of survival value. But there's really two things,
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or there's different drugs going on. There's things like LSD
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and psilocybin mushrooms, which, you know, have you hallucinate and
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have you see a lot of things. But I mostly
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work with MDMA, better known as ecstasy, because... That is
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more of a therapeutic experience. It's a way to do
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two years of therapy in a day in that it
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leaves people being very honest, open, without their normal ego defenses.
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And when that happens, you can really reprogram the mind,
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really help people over their issues very quickly rather than
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taking a year or two to do it in therapy.
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So it bypasses the ego so you can get through quicker?
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Yeah, and a lot of people say that it makes
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them feel, for the first time, normal and peaceful and
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like what life should be. My parents were always wondering
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why I was working, writing books about this, called Ecstasy
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as Medicine, why I was working with this drug that
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is currently illegal, although it will probably be legal in
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the next year or so. And I said, well, the
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only way to really know is you should try it out. Well,
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they were conservative, so I didn't think they'd say yes.
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But they said, OK, we'll try it. And I gave
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them the medicine, told them how to take it. And
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a year later, I asked them if they'd taken it.
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And they said that they had. I said, well, what happened?
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And they said, well, we took it. We waited 20
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minutes and nothing happened. It didn't take effect. Well, I
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knew that the medicine MDMA takes about 45 minutes to
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take effect. So I said, what'd you do after that?
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And they said, well, we had nothing planned. So we
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sat on the couch and it ends up, we just
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happened to have the best night of our entire marriage.
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You know, we ended up talking about how much we
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love each other and we had had some problems, some
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arguments the previous week, and we worked all that out.
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And then we cuddled on the couch and The only
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disappointment was the drug never took effect. And, of course,
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I'm laughing because that's exactly the effect of the drug.
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But they didn't realize that that was the effect because
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it just makes you feel really good and open and
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takes the ego out of the way. And that's why
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it's so effective in psychotherapy.
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Yeah, I've never tried. I've done mushrooms. And, like, I know, like,
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I don't really get a major trip or hallucinations when
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I've done it. But what I do like usually is
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the next day, I get this nice, warm feeling. And
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the other thing that it did for me, especially the
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first time I went back to trying it again, because
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I did it with the blindfold and things like that,
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is it helped me put my childhood in chronological order,
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which in my mind must have been sort of out
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of order for some reason. Which really helped give me
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a new perspective. Yeah.
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Well, these drugs are showing a lot of promise in
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studies that they can help with anxiety or trauma or depression.
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And they're so effective that, you know, they're given breakthrough
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status by the FDA. And it's really just a matter
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of time before they become legal throughout the country. They're
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already legal in places like Australia and Denmark.
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Hmm. So, you know, these drugs, they've been used really
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forever by humans. And they've been used for a lot
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of different purposes. And I guess really what's happening now
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is sort of like the medical field is almost lifting
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the prohibition on these medicines that was put there by religion.
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Well, it was put there by religion and the U.S. government,
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so they couldn't be studied for a long time. And really,
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only in the last 10 years have there been some
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really good studies that show that they're a lot more
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effective than antidepressants. So what's happening now is Big Pharma
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is trying to come up with patented versions of ecstasy
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or MDMA or patented versions of magic mushrooms so that
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they can use them as medical therapeutic agents. And that
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process takes a while. But already in places like Oregon
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and Colorado, they do have psilocybin clinics. There's ketamine clinics.
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I led an MDMA training a couple of years ago,
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and 500 people signed up because people realize this is
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very effective. And unlike with the psychedelics, I can do
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MDMA therapy over Zoom because of these 700 sessions that
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I've led over 40 years, nobody's had a bad experience.
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It's a very gentle drug. So that particular therapy you
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can do over Zoom, which makes it very cost effective
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and very convenient for people.
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Yeah, I think that's something like a lot of people
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are afraid of. And I also found that with mushrooms, too.
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I found them to be very gentle. Not harsh, you know.
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I mean, sometimes marijuana I found harsher than mushrooms.
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Yeah, yeah. You know, what I find statistically is that,
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you know, about 20% of people don't have bad experiences
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on marijuana. About 20% have bad experiences on mushrooms, you know,
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depending on how much they take. Same with LSD. About
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40% of people have very challenging experiences in ayahuasca. And
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about one-eighth of 1% have challenging experiences on MDMA, which
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means that, you know, less than 1 in 1,000. Do
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all these.
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Drugs do the same thing?
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No, they do very different things. You know, it's unfortunate
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that we classify them all as psychedelics. You know, ketamine
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is an anesthetic. It just kind of makes you feel
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peaceful and not wanting to move a lot. LSD, you know,
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really opens up the doors of perception. So you often
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will have hallucinations. It's, it's very good for dealing with
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anxiety and opening you up spiritually. Um, and then, uh,
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things like MDMA are really good for, uh, relationship healing
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and enhancing and for overcoming trauma. So they're very specific
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as to what they're best for and, uh, As an
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MDMA therapist, I mostly help people with trauma or relationships
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or wanting to get clarity about what their next step
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in life is. So they each have their own use,
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just like Xanax might be good for anxiety, whereas Prozac
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might be good for depression. But these drugs tend to
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be a lot more effective and a lot quicker in
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their action.
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I wonder if what they really do is make you
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really realize that next step in our life maybe just
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isn't that important and it's just about enjoying the moment.
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A lot of times you do get that insight, yes.
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But you know, there's intellectual insight and then there's like
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really deep down in your core and your bones insight.
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And what I try and do is after a journey,
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I have what I call an integration session or two
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where I help people take their insights and put them
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in life. And that's a process. And I think a
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lot of psychedelic therapists Don't put enough attention on that
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process because, you know, insights are great, whether in therapy
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or with psychedelic therapy. But really, it comes down to
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does it change your life in a way that makes
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you happier and more peaceful?
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One of the things that I noticed when I did
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the mushroom thing was for a couple of days afterwards,
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I did journaling. as just things would pop up. Even
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if they seemed random, I was writing them down. And
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that definitely was really, really helpful because things were coming up,
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even though I didn't recognize them. But when I was
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able to go back and look at what I was writing,
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or even as I was writing it, I'm like, oh.
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You know? So, yeah, that was an important part of it.
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For me, I guess that was like the integration part.
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Uh-huh.
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You know, another thing I do is I record the sessions,
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which are about five hours long. And people often tell
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me that listening to the recording was as impactful as
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the actual session because you hear yourself in new ways.
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You hear yourself working through issues because I'm very interactive
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in my sessions with MDMA. But there's different ways to
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do this therapy. You know, there's a group called MAPS,
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which has... help fund a lot of this research and
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they do their therapy just by having people put on
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a blindfold and listen to music that's another way of
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doing it but I find it much more effective to
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use this especially the drug ecstasy as a accelerant in
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therapy you know I used to be a psychotherapist but
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I gave up my license because I just found therapy
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to be really A long, slow slog for most people.
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And quite expensive, too.
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Yeah.
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You know, you're going to a therapist for a year
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or two. You know, I think it's actually easier to
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change things in a day with something like this than
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go week by week and pay inordinate amounts of money.
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I just don't think that's a very good model for
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most people.
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Yeah. It is good for some people that are profiting
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off that model, it is.
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Yeah. Unfortunately, the incentive for psychotherapists is to keep their
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clients coming back over and over and over again. Yes.
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Whereas my incentive is really to cure somebody in one
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day because I don't ever need to do a second session.
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You know, I don't. If they're cured in a day,
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they'll refer their friends. If they're not cured in a day,
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I'll probably never hear from them again and never get
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more business.
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And I think one of the things, too, is we're
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conditioned to believe that old idea. Like, oh, if it
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took 20 years to get this messed up, it's going
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to take another 20 years to not get this messed up.
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At least for me, that logic was built into me.
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And then it was a couple of other things, too. Like, oh,
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antidepressants are just avoidance or, you know, or psychedelics aren't
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really helping you. They're just cooking a part of your
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brain that's causing you to hurt and things like that.
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Yeah, yeah. We get a lot of messages. But, you know,
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different things do work for different people. So I don't
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want to say that, you know, nobody should do therapy
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or you should do this or that. But what I've found...
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with MDMA or ecstasy is that it seems to be
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like a Swiss army knife where besides being very gentle,
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meaning nobody seems to have bad experiences with it, that
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it is very useful for whatever issues people are facing.
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Because when you get the ego out of the way
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and when you reduce blood flow to the amygdala, which
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is the fear part of our brain, Then you can
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have a really real conversation and people can soberly look
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at their life, not from shame or fear or guilt,
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but from like, okay, this is what I need to
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do or this is clear to me now. And yeah,
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two years of therapy might do that, but so my
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one day of just real insight and clarity. And then
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once you know what to do, I help people do
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what they know. And that's a different process. The integration
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process is really a science. Journaling can be part of it.
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But I do a lot of other things where I
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have people make promises as to certain things that they
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know would make their life better, but they wouldn't normally do.
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And if they don't do those things, they have to
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rip up one dollar. And I find that the threat
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of ripping up $ 1 is actually very good at motivating people.
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I've had people who are snorting $ 20, 000 of cocaine a
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month stop to avoid ripping up $ 1. It's pretty funny,
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but that's how our brain can sometimes work.
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It is funny how we can trick ourselves into doing
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the right thing.
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Yeah, yeah. And sometimes we need the right technique. If
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you have the right method... You can go from San
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Francisco to Los Angeles in an hour. You know, that's
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called a plane. But if you don't know about planes,
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walking is going to take you a long time.
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You know.
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So I always think that people should find the right
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method for the particular issue they're dealing with.
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Sorry about the dogs barking.
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Oh, no problem. I have a couple dogs. And, you know,
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dogs are... are kind of a portal to unconditional love
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for a lot of people. And sometimes I actually have
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a meditation where I have people focus on their dog
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or cat as a way of really feeling their heart.
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And that can be... I have a couple of dogs,
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and to me, they're my little guru.
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Yeah, I have three of them.
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And it is..
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Sometimes I wonder what the world looks like through a dog.
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Well, it's funny you mention that, Gary. I actually have
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a book about that. I have a book called Conversations
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with Dog. And it was a bestseller in England. And
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it's basically about a guy who starts hearing his dog's
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thoughts in his head. And the dog is trying to
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teach him how to play and love and enjoy life again.
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And it's a novel, obviously, but it's kind of a
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self-help novel because I think dogs have a lot to
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teach us about just being in the moment and forgiveness
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and unconditional love. And so that's why I say my
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dogs are kind of my gurus. One of them is
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right under my feet right now, enjoying hearing how effective
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she is as my teacher.
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Yeah, definitely. I like just being surrounded by life in general, dogs, plants,
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things like that. I just feel more connected to nature.
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Nature has a big effect on my consciousness and awareness
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in my state of depression, too. In fact, one of
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the things I think that kind of goes along, in
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my opinion, or for a lot of people when it
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comes to plant medicine, is actually being out in nature.
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Yeah, you know, nature is one of our healers. Plant
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medicine can be, music can be, you know, methods that
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help us to uncover our true nature. You know, you
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talked a little bit before your podcast. I have a
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podcast called Awareness Explorers. And the reason I started that
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podcast is I wanted to talk to the people who
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are the most enlightened on Earth. figuring hopefully some of
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it will rub off so I've interviewed everybody from Deepak
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Chopra to the Dalai Lama on the podcast and you
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know I think everybody has something they do really well
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the question is where do you put your focus so
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being that I was a depressed suicidal teenager I decided
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to put my focus towards peace you know how do
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you find peace in this crazy world Not many people
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have it, but the people who have it, I want
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to know what they're doing. So I interview them on
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my podcast. I find out little techniques that they have
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that help. We talked about meditating on your love for
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a dog. That's a technique that can help you get
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in touch with your heart. But a lot of these
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people I've interviewed, which is now over 100 people, they
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have simple guided meditations. They have simple techniques. One simple
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technique might be... to imagine the world without words. Normally
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we're caught up in our heads, chattering, but babies and
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dogs don't have words. They're just here with what is
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in this moment. And that's all that's really ever going
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on is the sensations, the sights. If you're not judging everything,
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things just are as they are, and that can feel peaceful.
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So there's little ways to do that. And I think
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plant medicines, MDMA can help be a doorway where you
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start to see that. You know, I was a very
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depressed teenager, but when I started taking these drugs, it
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showed me that, hey, peace and happiness are actually possible.
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And one of the things I loved about MDMA is,
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you know, I was kind of a nerdy teenager. It
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showed me that love is possible, like relationship and connection
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is possible. And that got me writing books about relationships.
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And Oprah liked my books, so they became bestsellers. But,
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you know, for an intellectual nerdy guy like me to
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have a wonderful relationship with my wife, I don't think
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that would happen without MDMA.
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Because you need to have that relationship with yourself.
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That's true, too. That is a relationship. Yeah, yeah. And
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sometimes that relationship is not going well.
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No, I struggle with that relationship quite often.
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Yeah. And it's really hard to get a divorce in
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that relationship.
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I know I can't escape it.
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Quite true.
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It's the most difficult relationship I have is with my
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own mind. Yeah.
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You know, uh, here's an interesting technique to have a
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different relationship with your own mind. Um, And I learned
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this from some enlightened people I interviewed. They kept on
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referring to themselves in the third person. They said, you know,
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because I am, according to them, they were like pure awareness,
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you know, pure peace. So they'd say, well, Jonathan or
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Joe thinks this. So they weren't that attached to every
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thought that they had. They saw it as almost like
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a different being that just talks in their head. And
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they would refer to that being in the third person. Like,
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you know, you would say, well, Gary has this thought, blah, blah, blah.
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That's very different than I have this thought. Like, Gary
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is depressed, is different than I am depressed.
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Yeah, I kind of like one of the things that
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I've been doing is like I've been I do a
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lot with tarot cards but one of the things I
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think about them or ways I think about them is
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the whole package of the whole person but each card
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is an aspect of the person so when I'm focusing
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on different things inside my head and stuff I can
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be like you know what this isn't me this is
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just an aspect of this whole being and that helps
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me change some of my perspective on how I'm viewing
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myself and viewing situation and then I think it also
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changes um the choices that I see that are available
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to me.
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Yeah and it also helps you to not identify so
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much with certain parts of yourself you know there's this
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thing you're probably familiar uh internal family systems or IFS
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where you see that there's all these different parts of
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you and it's really different to you know like let's
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say you have um uh Well, depression is common. It's
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very different to say I am depressed. Or let's say
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a person has cancer. To say I have cancer is devastating.
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To say that my little pinky nail has cancer is
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much easier. So when you use the word I, it
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implies like it's all of you. But when you say
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there's a little part of me that is depressed, that's,
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you know, one, more accurate, but two, easier to view.
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Yeah, it's a better perspective because then you just have
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one thing that's going wrong with you and it's not
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seeping into all of you.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so, you know, these are
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different techniques. I do actually work with this IFS or
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parts work a lot with my client's that I use
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with MDMA, and they find it, you know, their heads
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are like, oh, my God, that's a totally different perspective
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of me and what's going on, and can help them
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have a lot more compassion for themselves and a lot
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more self-love.
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And for other people then, too. It's definitely like it
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spans outwards.
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Yeah, yeah. You start to see other people as made
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up of parts. You know, they're not all bad or
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all good. You know, we all have stuff. And you see, like, oh,
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I know what that's like to have, you know, that
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kind of anxiety or shame. And it evokes compassion when
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you see that.
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It's that easy. But we have so much trouble. Sometimes
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I wonder, like, you know, like, obvious things, like, that
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block us, you know, like, you know, generational trauma, religion, government, up,
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you know, just the struggles of our parents and things
395
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like that, I get in the way of our being,
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00:26:00.069 --> 00:26:04.420
our awareness. But however, sometimes I also realize, too, when
397
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I look back at ancient civilizations and things, too, I
398
00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:10.940
think they kind of had a better grasp on it
399
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than we do now.
400
00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:17.470
Well, life was simpler. They had a closer connection to nature.
401
00:26:18.170 --> 00:26:22.019
They often had a closer connection to each other You know,
402
00:26:22.539 --> 00:26:26.460
I have a few books about happiness. And one of
403
00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:30.900
the things that the research shows is that the most
404
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:35.140
important thing in life is the quality and quantity of
405
00:26:35.180 --> 00:26:39.029
your relationships. But when you live in a tribe, you know,
406
00:26:39.630 --> 00:26:43.950
you're very close to those 50 people or whatever. Nowadays,
407
00:26:44.029 --> 00:26:48.430
it's harder. You know, a thousand Facebook friends does not
408
00:26:48.529 --> 00:26:53.750
equal one really good friend. And I think nowadays people
409
00:26:53.890 --> 00:26:56.430
struggle with having really close friends because there's so much
410
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going on. One of the things I like about MDMA
411
00:27:00.670 --> 00:27:04.109
is I often work with couples. In fact, my latest
412
00:27:04.230 --> 00:27:09.970
book is called Ecstasy for Couples. And most couples are
413
00:27:09.990 --> 00:27:13.630
having a hard time nowadays because they don't have the
414
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communication skills. They have a lot of stress. And Um,
415
00:27:18.789 --> 00:27:23.369
it's really rewarding to see people who might be sitting
416
00:27:23.490 --> 00:27:26.890
on opposite sides of a couch, barely talking to each other,
417
00:27:27.569 --> 00:27:31.890
reconnect and love just after a couple of hours. Uh,
418
00:27:31.950 --> 00:27:37.650
that's very moving to me. And, and when your relationships
419
00:27:37.710 --> 00:27:41.390
are going well, even if other things in your life
420
00:27:41.450 --> 00:27:45.900
aren't going well, you're probably doing okay. Whereas, and the
421
00:27:45.980 --> 00:27:51.619
opposite's also true, that you could have everything in your
422
00:27:51.660 --> 00:27:54.950
life going well, money, health, things like that, but if
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00:27:54.990 --> 00:27:58.509
your intimate relationships or your friendships are not going well,
424
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you'll probably be pretty unhappy.
425
00:28:01.369 --> 00:28:03.309
I think a lot of people think about it the
426
00:28:03.349 --> 00:28:05.769
other way and have it backwards. They think, oh, my
427
00:28:05.829 --> 00:28:08.809
relationship's messed up because I don't have enough money, I
428
00:28:08.849 --> 00:28:11.910
don't have enough security, or I don't have enough time.
429
00:28:12.710 --> 00:28:13.869
I don't have enough money.
430
00:28:15.769 --> 00:28:17.730
Well, you don't have enough of a priority on your
431
00:28:17.769 --> 00:28:21.210
relationships is really what's going on. Yeah, yeah.
432
00:28:21.269 --> 00:28:24.029
But I think a lot of us, and even myself,
433
00:28:24.269 --> 00:28:27.190
I have lost perspective of that where I have just
434
00:28:27.230 --> 00:28:34.539
fallen into survival mode and almost let relationships drift.
435
00:28:35.420 --> 00:28:39.779
Yeah. And I think we've all done that. The question
436
00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:43.319
is how quickly do you get back to center? Does
437
00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:45.910
it take you... A day to get back to center,
438
00:28:45.930 --> 00:28:49.309
a week, a month, a year, a decade, or maybe
439
00:28:49.349 --> 00:28:53.329
an hour. So one of the things I've done is
440
00:28:53.730 --> 00:28:57.309
I make sure I schedule time with my wife. I
441
00:28:57.650 --> 00:29:01.819
schedule time every week with her so that that relationship
442
00:29:01.890 --> 00:29:05.839
doesn't dwindle. I have a lot of books, a lot
443
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:09.480
of speaking engagements, a lot of clients. It's easy for
444
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:12.299
those to crowd out. But what I do is I
445
00:29:12.339 --> 00:29:14.900
just put on my schedule, you know, these are the
446
00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:16.960
hours I'll be spending with her. It doesn't matter how
447
00:29:16.980 --> 00:29:19.960
much I got going on because that's like an appointment.
448
00:29:20.579 --> 00:29:25.720
And my work goes around all the priorities of time
449
00:29:25.740 --> 00:29:29.529
with my wife. And also I meditate every day. That
450
00:29:29.589 --> 00:29:30.230
helps as well.
451
00:29:31.289 --> 00:29:35.329
So you have a well-rounded, though. You have a meditation,
452
00:29:35.690 --> 00:29:38.849
which keeps you okay in your mind. You have a career,
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which you're still in. interested in and it's not a
454
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:47.329
grind and then you also have a productive relationship so
455
00:29:47.420 --> 00:29:52.670
in a way that whole thing is like its own ecosystem.
456
00:29:52.670 --> 00:29:55.930
Yeah yeah and it's always on the verge of going
457
00:29:56.049 --> 00:29:58.250
out of balance so you always have to be putting
458
00:29:58.269 --> 00:30:02.859
it back in balance Because there are so many stressors nowadays.
459
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:10.890
But keeping it in balance has made me be able
460
00:30:11.009 --> 00:30:13.930
to do this for the long term without burning out.
461
00:30:14.730 --> 00:30:17.630
And a lot of people, they just burn out and
462
00:30:17.690 --> 00:30:19.809
then have to suffer the consequences.
463
00:30:21.210 --> 00:30:22.970
Do you think one of the tricks, though, is when
464
00:30:22.990 --> 00:30:26.410
you run into an obstacle somewhere? One of the things
465
00:30:26.569 --> 00:30:28.710
I've noticed where I do better now is when I
466
00:30:28.730 --> 00:30:32.890
run into an obstacle, somewhere. I don't try to fight
467
00:30:32.950 --> 00:30:35.650
it like I used to. I just try to go
468
00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:39.559
somewhere else in my system that I can fix now
469
00:30:40.779 --> 00:30:45.440
and try to keep everything flowing more rather than just
470
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focusing on one single thing.
471
00:30:48.660 --> 00:30:53.109
Yeah, and that's an art form too. One of the
472
00:30:53.150 --> 00:30:55.849
things that really helped me was just the ability to
473
00:30:56.029 --> 00:31:01.539
ask for help. From spiritual teachers, from friends, from my mate.
474
00:31:02.069 --> 00:31:03.769
You know, a lot of, especially a lot of guys
475
00:31:04.089 --> 00:31:08.549
are not good at doing that. But, you know, when
476
00:31:09.089 --> 00:31:11.450
people ask me how did I go from a suicidal
477
00:31:11.589 --> 00:31:17.339
teen to somebody who's reached 200 million people and has
478
00:31:17.380 --> 00:31:20.779
a happy life, I say, well, I got really good
479
00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:24.809
at one skill, and that was asking for help. Now,
480
00:31:24.829 --> 00:31:28.390
sometimes it was help from books. Sometimes it was from teachers.
481
00:31:28.450 --> 00:31:32.089
Sometimes it was from friends. But, you know, if you
482
00:31:32.130 --> 00:31:34.690
get really good at asking for help and getting the
483
00:31:34.730 --> 00:31:38.299
help that you need, you know, the sky's the limit.
484
00:31:38.819 --> 00:31:42.539
So that was the one key skill that really shifted
485
00:31:42.579 --> 00:31:48.140
my life. And it's not easy to do. You know,
486
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:51.240
especially we have this idea like, you know, we.
487
00:31:51.220 --> 00:31:54.049
Know it all. Because I guess in my mind sometimes
488
00:31:54.089 --> 00:31:55.609
I think it's a sign of weakness.
489
00:31:56.710 --> 00:32:01.450
Yeah, and you're not alone. You know, luckily when I
490
00:32:01.490 --> 00:32:06.710
was suicidally depressed as a teenager, I almost had no choice.
491
00:32:06.789 --> 00:32:11.069
It was either that or kill myself. So it wasn't
492
00:32:11.109 --> 00:32:12.869
seen as a sign of weakness. It was like a
493
00:32:12.930 --> 00:32:16.670
sign of, you know, I'm desperate. But once I saw
494
00:32:16.690 --> 00:32:19.950
that worked... I saw it as a sign of strength
495
00:32:20.230 --> 00:32:23.789
that I'm strong enough to know what I need and
496
00:32:23.869 --> 00:32:28.009
go out and get it. Whereas when you don't get
497
00:32:28.069 --> 00:32:33.359
that help, it's really you saying that either I know everything,
498
00:32:33.470 --> 00:32:37.660
which is ridiculous, or that I have too fragile of
499
00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:40.279
an ego to admit that I need help.
500
00:32:43.059 --> 00:32:49.710
Yeah, exactly. So it's almost like that in itself is
501
00:32:49.750 --> 00:32:56.009
a weakness. It's not being, it's thinking, thinking that you, that, that,
502
00:32:56.069 --> 00:33:00.049
that needing help is a weakness is a weakness in itself,
503
00:33:00.349 --> 00:33:02.359
I guess is what I'm trying to come around.
504
00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:05.720
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to say it.
505
00:33:05.740 --> 00:33:10.900
It's loopy, but yeah.
506
00:33:11.539 --> 00:33:12.039
How does the.
507
00:33:11.980 --> 00:33:14.119
Person find what they're good at?
508
00:33:16.430 --> 00:33:20.309
Um, one way is by asking your friends, uh, what
509
00:33:20.349 --> 00:33:22.990
you're good at. You know, um, I, I knew I
510
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:25.099
was good at a couple things and then I asked
511
00:33:25.140 --> 00:33:27.579
like five friends, what do you think of my, what
512
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:29.359
do you think of me as being good at? And
513
00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:31.960
they had a different picture, you know, our eyes go out.
514
00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:34.119
So I have a better sense of knowing what you're
515
00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:37.559
good at than maybe knowing what I'm good at. But my,
516
00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:41.009
all my friends said, Oh man, you're a great writer
517
00:33:41.069 --> 00:33:45.220
and you're a great therapist. And, uh, Uh, you're really
518
00:33:45.259 --> 00:33:49.190
good at taking complex ideas and simplifying them. And I
519
00:33:49.210 --> 00:33:52.210
wouldn't have thought of that because that's like the water
520
00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:55.940
I live in, you know, I mean, nobody, you don't
521
00:33:55.960 --> 00:34:00.250
think of yourself. An alien looking at you might say, man, Gary,
522
00:34:00.269 --> 00:34:05.099
you're just incredible at breathing. I mean, you haven't missed
523
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:08.420
a beat for how many years? I mean, it's amazing.
524
00:34:09.300 --> 00:34:11.880
But you're not thinking that because that's the water you
525
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:15.099
live in, or you're really good at podcasting. Well, I
526
00:34:16.900 --> 00:34:20.949
just do what I do. It doesn't strike you as miraculous,
527
00:34:20.989 --> 00:34:24.409
but it strikes somebody who might be really shy. How
528
00:34:24.449 --> 00:34:26.849
do you do that? So it's a good way to
529
00:34:26.889 --> 00:34:28.590
know what you're good at is to ask your friends.
530
00:34:30.570 --> 00:34:36.289
That is true. I never really realized what I'm good
531
00:34:36.369 --> 00:34:38.909
at because to me whatever it is just seems natural.
532
00:34:38.929 --> 00:34:40.940
It's like, what do you mean? This is just what
533
00:34:41.300 --> 00:34:43.980
I do. I'm just wired this way.
534
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:49.000
Yeah, I asked Deepak Chopra, who's written like 80 books,
535
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:54.400
some ridiculous amount, how do you do that? And he said,
536
00:34:55.369 --> 00:34:57.690
I don't know, how do you not do that? It's like,
537
00:34:57.769 --> 00:34:59.969
you know, it's like breathing for me. Yeah.
538
00:35:01.150 --> 00:35:04.789
What was it like interviewing the Dalai Lama?
539
00:35:04.949 --> 00:35:10.969
Well, I was nervous, one thing, you know. But he
540
00:35:10.989 --> 00:35:12.489
has a great sense of humor.
541
00:35:12.510 --> 00:35:13.659
Right.
542
00:35:13.940 --> 00:35:18.139
And so he quickly put me at ease. And we
543
00:35:18.179 --> 00:35:21.659
ended up laughing a lot. You know, I have a
544
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:23.360
pretty good sense of humor and he has a great
545
00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:28.329
sense of humor. And it ended up being just, you know,
546
00:35:28.349 --> 00:35:35.909
this feeling of two ants discussing infinity and having a
547
00:35:35.949 --> 00:35:40.239
good time laughing about it. And, you know, of course,
548
00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:44.659
he said, you know, things that really struck my heart. So,
549
00:35:45.340 --> 00:35:48.099
you know, it was wonderful. It was totally wonderful.
550
00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:51.760
Yeah, I love the way he focuses a lot when
551
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:55.750
he teaches on the middle way. I saw him in
552
00:35:55.809 --> 00:35:59.170
New York, and that's what he was giving a teaching on. Yeah.
553
00:35:59.610 --> 00:36:03.730
And it was just fantastic just being there with him. Yeah.
554
00:36:04.389 --> 00:36:06.409
Some people definitely have a vibe.
555
00:36:06.429 --> 00:36:11.119
Well, he has the wisdom of the Dalai Lama, but
556
00:36:11.179 --> 00:36:13.960
he kind of is like a little kid in some way.
557
00:36:14.539 --> 00:36:18.039
And that's a really interesting combination. I showed him a
558
00:36:18.099 --> 00:36:22.280
magic trick. And his eyes just almost like exploded, like, oh,
559
00:36:22.300 --> 00:36:25.880
my God, how did you do that? You know, so
560
00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:27.739
he's very childlike in some ways.
561
00:36:29.179 --> 00:36:31.860
I guess that's part of it, right? For your childlike,
562
00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:33.840
then your ego is not getting in the way.
563
00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:37.679
Yeah, yeah. Jesus said, you know, you need to be
564
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:39.900
like children to get into the kingdom of heaven.
565
00:36:42.059 --> 00:36:44.679
Yeah, I mean, really, like when I even look at
566
00:36:44.820 --> 00:36:49.039
consciousness and awareness, I think, kind of like more like
567
00:36:49.059 --> 00:36:52.119
in the Buddhist point of perspective, that it's not, it
568
00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:54.889
doesn't really exist because when we look at it through
569
00:36:54.909 --> 00:36:58.010
a scientific lens, you keep digging down and digging down,
570
00:36:58.070 --> 00:37:02.070
like matter doesn't really seem to be much there, you know?
571
00:37:02.130 --> 00:37:07.269
So the Buddhist perspective of everything being mine seems to
572
00:37:07.309 --> 00:37:07.809
be true.
573
00:37:07.829 --> 00:37:15.239
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, in this culture, we don't
574
00:37:15.300 --> 00:37:19.400
put enough attention on our heart. So one of the
575
00:37:19.460 --> 00:37:22.530
things I try to help people with is to really
576
00:37:22.590 --> 00:37:27.250
discover their own heart. I find that MDMA is the
577
00:37:27.289 --> 00:37:30.469
best medicine for that. What's it like to live from
578
00:37:30.510 --> 00:37:35.099
your heart and yet not be overwhelmed by all the suffering?
579
00:37:36.980 --> 00:37:41.079
Those are all skills that are possible to learn. But
580
00:37:41.300 --> 00:37:44.699
in this culture or this cult-ture that we put in
581
00:37:44.739 --> 00:37:50.219
Western cults, You know, we're a little bit too much
582
00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:54.349
caught up in our heads, and we miss the connection
583
00:37:54.389 --> 00:38:01.070
with nature or with our mate. You know, dogs are
584
00:38:01.150 --> 00:38:04.769
very helpful for that, but we need all the help
585
00:38:04.809 --> 00:38:09.469
we can get because it's a very stressful and mental
586
00:38:11.610 --> 00:38:12.489
culture we live in.
587
00:38:15.110 --> 00:38:19.260
I would imagine, though, if most people would ever say, like, well,
588
00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:25.889
how do you live a successful life? Dogs, meditation, MDA.
589
00:38:25.909 --> 00:38:33.949
A good relationship. Yeah. you know the success does leave
590
00:38:34.050 --> 00:38:36.949
clues so yeah you think that having those things in
591
00:38:36.969 --> 00:38:38.769
your life is pretty important.
592
00:38:38.590 --> 00:38:41.230
Yeah but but but i think like like what you're
593
00:38:41.269 --> 00:38:44.530
fine though is that a lot of the things that
594
00:38:44.550 --> 00:38:46.840
were programmed or told that's going to give us to
595
00:38:46.900 --> 00:38:49.139
happiness isn't.
596
00:38:49.179 --> 00:38:53.340
It yeah yeah uh you know at least not for
597
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:59.170
you but the pursuit of of money uh 50 hours
598
00:38:59.230 --> 00:39:02.360
a week isn't going to lead to a happy life.
599
00:39:03.980 --> 00:39:07.739
That's a hard thing to accept or even for me
600
00:39:07.780 --> 00:39:11.340
to swallow sometimes you know because like I'm always trying
601
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:14.039
to pursue my own thing and in a way I'm
602
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:16.269
like oh I'm slacker because I should be working like
603
00:39:16.329 --> 00:39:18.690
really really hard and doing this and doing all these
604
00:39:18.730 --> 00:39:22.829
things and being miserable like my father was yeah yeah
605
00:39:23.050 --> 00:39:25.809
you know but I don't want well.
606
00:39:25.570 --> 00:39:29.219
You know the culture you you tend to you tend
607
00:39:29.239 --> 00:39:31.739
to become like the five people you hang out with
608
00:39:31.780 --> 00:39:35.500
the most so i suggest that people try to find
609
00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:39.320
you know really high beans or happy beans or people
610
00:39:39.340 --> 00:39:44.159
that you respect uh and and that that has a
611
00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:45.179
big effect on you.
612
00:39:45.059 --> 00:39:49.800
Hmm So people just rub off on each other.
613
00:39:49.820 --> 00:39:54.280
Yeah, that's why I have a podcast where I interview
614
00:39:54.300 --> 00:39:55.039
enlightened people.
615
00:39:55.059 --> 00:39:58.840
Yeah, maybe that's what I'm doing, too, is just trying
616
00:39:58.889 --> 00:40:03.550
to– well, I do, actually. As a podcaster, honestly, I
617
00:40:03.610 --> 00:40:07.670
can say I've learned probably more from my guests than
618
00:40:07.730 --> 00:40:10.570
I probably could ever have learned from any universities.
619
00:40:11.719 --> 00:40:12.340
Absolutely.
620
00:40:12.380 --> 00:40:15.079
And I've learned information that I could never have learned
621
00:40:15.099 --> 00:40:18.449
from a university either because it's not really in any textbook.
622
00:40:20.329 --> 00:40:25.909
And hopefully your listeners listening to the wisdom I've gathered
623
00:40:25.949 --> 00:40:29.289
from people I've interviewed and the MDMA work I do,
624
00:40:29.309 --> 00:40:33.210
it opens up new doors, new possibilities for them as
625
00:40:33.230 --> 00:40:36.579
to like, oh, okay, that might be interesting to pursue
626
00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:40.119
or maybe I should put more focus on my relationship
627
00:40:40.300 --> 00:40:47.559
or whatever it is, that we need inspiration nowadays to
628
00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:49.880
keep us on the right track.
629
00:40:51.559 --> 00:40:57.019
That's the whole point, is to give people something that
630
00:40:57.099 --> 00:41:02.110
will open their minds, I hope, or give people another
631
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:06.690
perspective than the one that's constantly being fed.
632
00:41:07.989 --> 00:41:11.769
Yeah, if you want the quick opening, you know, MDMA
633
00:41:11.909 --> 00:41:16.250
or the psychedelics can be a quick way of doing that.
634
00:41:19.010 --> 00:41:23.400
Or not. Like you said, though, there's the integration. I
635
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:26.280
don't know how effective it is if you don't do
636
00:41:26.340 --> 00:41:27.500
that part of it, right?
637
00:41:29.179 --> 00:41:33.159
Well, actually, they are surprisingly effective even without the integration.
638
00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:35.949
Because when they do these studies, they don't do any
639
00:41:36.050 --> 00:41:39.110
integration work. And they want to see if just taking
640
00:41:39.190 --> 00:41:42.840
a pill works. And doing no therapy will work. And
641
00:41:43.059 --> 00:41:46.920
they've been surprised to find that, yeah, it actually does
642
00:41:48.139 --> 00:41:52.969
make changes. Now, when you add integration and therapy or
643
00:41:53.010 --> 00:41:56.070
whatever on top of that, it is more effective for sure.
644
00:41:56.750 --> 00:42:00.150
But surprisingly, they've been very surprised that you can just
645
00:42:00.190 --> 00:42:03.289
take a pill, not do any therapy, and changes are
646
00:42:03.329 --> 00:42:07.070
happening because you are seeing the world in a new way.
647
00:42:07.090 --> 00:42:10.869
And once you see things differently, You can't unsee them.
648
00:42:12.969 --> 00:42:16.610
That's beautiful. So I really want to thank you for
649
00:42:16.650 --> 00:42:19.409
coming on and being such a great guest. It's been
650
00:42:19.610 --> 00:42:23.199
fabulous talking to you. I've learned a lot. Before we
651
00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:25.739
wrap it up, where's the best place for my listeners
652
00:42:25.780 --> 00:42:26.380
to find you?
653
00:42:27.699 --> 00:42:31.539
Well, I have a couple of websites. One is for
654
00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:35.340
people interested in my MDMA work. I have a website,
655
00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:47.550
the letters XTC.com. XTCAsMedicine.com, XTCAsMedicine.com. Or they can also listen
656
00:42:47.570 --> 00:42:53.280
to my podcast, which is called Awareness Explorers, and hear
657
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:54.760
some of our interviews.
658
00:42:54.780 --> 00:42:58.659
All right. Well, fantastic. I will put a link to
659
00:42:59.139 --> 00:43:01.760
your website and to your podcast in the notes of
660
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:05.469
this episode. It's been great having you on. I do
661
00:43:05.510 --> 00:43:08.590
not have an outro. I have not recorded a new one.
662
00:43:09.090 --> 00:43:12.329
So for my listeners, thank you so much for listening.
663
00:43:13.170 --> 00:43:17.599
Check out my new website, unitymanifest.com. I have a whole
664
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:21.579
bunch of new things in the resource section. I've been
665
00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:30.769
putting a lot out lately on the Mystic Testbook, which
666
00:43:30.829 --> 00:43:33.989
is a book about using a regular deck of cards
667
00:43:34.090 --> 00:43:38.769
for astrology and all sorts of magic and even a cosmology.
668
00:43:38.949 --> 00:43:42.829
So check it out, and that's on unitymanifest.com, and it's
669
00:43:42.909 --> 00:43:47.719
free in the resources section. Thank you for listening, and
670
00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:49.739
I'll be back soon.