#124 Stop Overcomplicating Marketing: What Actually Drives Growth

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This is Marketing Uncomplicated.
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Hi, everybody, and welcome back.
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This conversation supports the mission of Uncomplicated in so many ways.
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By translating marketing concepts into clear, practical advice that entrepreneurs and small business owners can understand and use.
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Rob is the co-founder and CEO of Flying V Group, an independently owned digital marketing agency that has served more than 450 clients across industries, including the company
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including healthcare, finance, real estate, renewable energy, and car washes.
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Such a variety of different industries.
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But I want to dive in and talk a little more.
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So Rob, thank you so much for joining.
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We're so excited to hear from you.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Sasha, thanks so much for having me on the show.
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Really appreciate you just doing this and to the audience that's out there listening.
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Really hope you'll be able to take away.
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I think my goal with a lot of
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podcast is just some practical stuff, right?
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Or some stuff that you can take and maybe test or easily deploy quickly.
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But yeah, super excited to be here.
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And thank you for having me.
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I do want to mention a caveat because I love these kinds of stories and I think everybody does.
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So, you know, Rob and his co-founder, they started with a $15,000 built-in company into a multi-million dollar founder-owned agency with 34 people globally right now.
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So there's a lot to learn from this grow.
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And today, Rob and his team now manage more than $5 million in annual advertising spend across clients, and that is globally as well.
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So that's where I want to start, Rob, is I want to start with what was starting with the $15,000 bet?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Really, it was probably frustration, I'd say, more than anything, right?
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I mean, I know the three of us, myself, Brennan, my brother, still, yeah, the operators of the business today, 10 years later.
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You know, we were just kind of bouncing around from job to job.
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And I know I was too.
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And, you know, we were always kind of entrepreneurial.
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We had built a mobile app together early days of college, always kind of had different...
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I don't want to call them schemes.
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Schemes is probably the wrong word, right?
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But we had different things we were doing.
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Yes.
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Yeah, ideas.
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I coached high school football.
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I did the video at the end, sold it to the parents.
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Right.
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So we were always just looking at new, unique ways to start something.
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Yeah, I think it was really just an opportunity built off of that frustration and seeing maybe we should just take a bet on ourselves and focus on the service side to where it was our time or how we could help solve people's problems and challenges.
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So like early in the day, I remember our website actually like Tyler, my brother has a background in accounting.
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So we started with really like we're going to be consultants.
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So Brendan and I, Brendan had social media background.
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I had website SEO background.
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My brother was a public auditor.
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So it was like, hey, you need a website?
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We'll build you a website.
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You need us to file your taxes?
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We'll file your taxes, right?
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So it really just came out of...
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wanting to help people.
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And then our time for money was like, okay, well it's low cost early on, right?
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We didn't have to build anything.
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We had already built a mobile app.
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We did, we burnt through 75, a hundred thousand dollars of friends and family and our own money and time, right?
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But this is something where I was like, hey, our effort is really what's gonna drive it.
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We built our own website.
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We started to create our own content.
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We were doing our own sales meetings.
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We're setting up the business on our own.
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Right.
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So it really was just sweat equity bootstrapped and really helped us to value the dollar, which now when speaking to CEOs, CMOs, owners, founders, I mean,
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That's what we lead with, right?
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Is our jobs to make sure every single dollar that you give us, we are maximizing to the nth degree in terms of what it is you need us to do for your business.
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Yeah, no, I love that.
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Before we dive into that portion, you know, because I think that it's I always like to talk about, you know, maximizing the dollar spent.
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And I think it's extremely important that, you know,
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people focus on that because there is a lot of digital agencies that, you know, well, we'll say that, you know, they don't go the extra mile for the client.
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Right.
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But I do want to talk about bootstrapping versus outside investment, because I think that this is a really interesting conversation.
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You know, you, you grew the agency while remaining independent and founder owned, which I think is fantastic in so many ways.
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You know, obviously family and friends investment, but not necessarily going out to get external, you know,
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investors.
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But what did bootstrapping teach you about discipline and profitability and decision making?
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Yeah, great question.
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Yeah, I mean, 15,000, right, was myself, Brennan, Tyler coming to the table, right?
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So it was truly like bets on ourselves.
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I'm glad we were able to scrounge 15 between us, right?
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But it really was early like what we had.
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But for me, it taught me all about really just you have to show up.
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Early days, especially if you don't have resources behind you, we obviously didn't have a lot of help in terms of just ourselves.
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You know, you're building a brand from nothing to where there's nothing it can fall back on.
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There's no past experience.
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There's no case studies, nothing else.
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So you're really the only line of defense.
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You don't have investors, you don't have additional capital you can call on or partners that are investors or strategic partners, etc.
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So I think what you have to do is you do.
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You got to get up, put both feet on the ground on the days when you know you're walking into that client meeting and you know you're at the point where you're so busy, but you don't have the infrastructure and you miss deliverables and you know what's coming.
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Right.
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But I think those are the days where you learn.
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face the music, you say, hey, I'm going to get this done right.
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I'm going to figure it out.
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And sometimes it doesn't work.
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And then you learn off of that.
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And then guess what?
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The next time when you're in that situation, you've already built or closed the gap that you had prior because you knew what the gap was, right?
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You're there, you're in the trenches, you're having those conversations, and then you're having to deal with a variety of different problems that you
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you know, as an entrepreneur, you never know what you're going to wake up to.
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And a lot of times it doesn't even I was talking to somebody about this the other day, especially with client agency work.
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Sometimes it doesn't even have to do anything with us.
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Right.
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The economy turns and the industry.
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COVID was a huge one for us.
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Right.
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People's doors just closed overnight.
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There's nothing we can do about that.
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We didn't do anything wrong.
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There's no playbook for that.
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So what do you do?
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You show up and you try your best.
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You put in a good effort.
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You take the calls, you respond to the emails, right?
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And you move forward with what are your pillars, right?
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And so for us, it's centered around data, profitability, transparency, accountability, communication more than anything with our clientele.
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Do you think founders behave differently when they're spending their own money versus an investor money?
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And we'll, we'll hope that there's no investors on these calls.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, I'm both.
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So that's also helped as well.
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Part of what I saw in the agency work is we do really good work as a vendor, but we had a couple instances where, and great, happy, that's the goal they got acquired and,
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exited, someone else comes in and who was the first one to get chopped?
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We were.
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And in certain instances, I mean, we were a big reason.
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We were the growth, right?
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Or we were a huge part of that infrastructure that helped them raise money and generate cash flow, prove concept for the business.
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And so that's where, yeah, I started to actually write checks into deals.
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We'd be able to get a
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So yeah, coming from that investor angle, 100%, you really want to look at what did this person do in the first zero to 90 days when they had nothing?
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No one believed in them.
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They had no concept.
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They had no sales.
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They had no money.
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And if the answer is they immediately went and asked people money for money, that's probably a red flag.
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Right.
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So we look at like, what did they build?
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How did they think creatively?
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You know, what type of tenacity did they show?
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That's a word I've really liked lately to figure out and solve problems or open up new opportunities or or just what value could they bring to me as an investor?
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Like, hey, I also you know, I've seen your business and what you're doing, and I think it can our business can fit in this way in the ecosystem of what you're building.
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So.
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Yeah, there's a big difference.
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And you have to be careful, right?
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To where when you do get into those Series A and beyond when you're talking about big dollars and institutionalized money, you know, if that person doesn't understand the value of the dollar or doesn't know how to measure it or track it or align with what it should be spent on, then you're just...
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Yeah, you're just burning cash even faster.
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And the problem gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
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So I want to definitely dial that in very early.
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And there's definitely a difference for sure.
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Yeah, and I love your word tenacity because, you know, one thing that I always say, you know, in entrepreneurship is that, you know, every day we're at work, you know, you're like a rubber band, you know.
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I mean, it stretches and it constrains and it stretches and it constrains.
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And that, like, really plays a nice role also in being tenacious because, you know, it's showing up, right?
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And really just moving through everything and having that connection.
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that courage, the spirit, you know, and really like the grace to move forward when things aren't going the way they can or in our minds should be, right?
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So that also plays a huge role in a lot of day-to-day things.
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Yeah.
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And entrepreneur, I mean, what I've learned over the years, too, is I mean, it is it's a very, very lonely path.
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And I think a lot of entrepreneurs don't talk about that enough.
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And it does get glamorized in the media, you know, with the big raises and the big valuations and these big exits and, you know, all these new companies that are starting up with early momentum.
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But yeah.
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You know, a lot of times they do break down because, hey, it's lonely because you're the only one that actually understands all the problems within the organization.
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Right.
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Because when you are showing up daily.
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So that's where that tenacity comes in.
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You have to have that just to know there's going to be a new problem every single day.
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And moving forward, they're only going to get bigger and bigger and bigger.
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So it's just knowing how to mentally set yourself to show up, you know, consistency for me, routine is important, you know, aligning health habits, working out, eating well, having the end, getting good sleep, you know, it's even more critical, the more and more you have on your plate.
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And then being able to walk into what sometimes can be, you know, a very tumultuous situation, you have an employee leave, you have...
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legal problems, you have client chat, whatever it may be, but you're able to set the tone for the rest of the organization.
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You're calm, you're cool, you're collected, you trust that you're going to be able to get over these problems because you have shown that consistent behavior to do it.
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So yeah, it's as much mindset as anything.
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And I think writing yourself with how you do things, the people that are around you, coaching for me has been huge.
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Nine years in, we were partners for the first 8 years, and we assumed executive roles.
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All of a sudden, I'm a CEO, and I'm like...
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I don't know how to be a CEO.
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So, you know, I joined a, a, this it's called Vistage peer advisory.
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And now I have every month, I have a room of CEOs that have more experience than I will ever have that have been through some of the problems and challenges.
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And you just gotta, you have to think that way, problem solving consistently.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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We talked a little before we, we hit the live button, um, in terms of, you know, before, before becoming an agency CEO owner,
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you were a high school football coach.
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And I think that there is an amazing line.
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I don't watch football personally, not because I don't like it.
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I just have never understood it.
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But I love the football players and I love the tenacity that they bring to the field.
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And I love, there's so many good quotes that come out of them, you know, as I scroll sometimes on Instagram.
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And I think because I've clicked on so many now, it's like I know some of the football players' names have no idea who they play for.
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But I think that there is like a thin line between...
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what they do in terms of showing up and being on the field that really is a nice kind of, you know, play into entrepreneurship and business.
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So, you know, what did coaching teach you about leadership accountability and building a team?
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Yeah, I appreciate you asking that.
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And over the years, as I've reflected, I see like, wow, a lot of those things that I was learning through coaching, you really have applied into the business.
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And so, yeah, I was fortunate to coach for some really good programs here in Southern California.
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We had lots of good success.
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all different levels, all the way to the top high school levels and saw all different systems and programs and coaches and styles.
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But the one that stood out to me the most was at a school called St. Margaret's, small school.
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And I remember when I showed up there,
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I thought they were running like this secret program, right?
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They had won three CIF titles in a row, our commission here.
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They had won a state title.
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And it's like, what are these guys doing that no one else knows?
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That makes them so good.
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And they only had like 400 kids in the whole school, right?
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And only half are boys.
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So they only had maybe 20, 30 guys on the roster.
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And I'll remember my first day there and I sat down with the coach and I was so excited because I'm like, okay.
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I'm going to learn all these new plays, new strategies, new this, that, the other.
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And he gave me one piece of paper, and it had 20 plays on it.
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And I came from a program that maybe had like 200 plays.
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And I was just shocked.
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And I go...
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This is it.
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And it was, you know, six of these types of plays, six of these types of plays and six of these types of plays.
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But they said, hey, what makes us different is we focus on the details.
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Right.
218
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We simplify things.
219
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We break it down to a level that based on who we're working with, high school kids, they can understand it.
220
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They can play fast, right?
221
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All we need them to do is, hey, show up, put in the consistent reps, make sure that what you're asking them to do consistently is not too complicated, right?
222
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So they have clear direction.
223
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And so it's just been little things like that, right?
224
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To where simplification a lot of times, just doing things the right way, having a way, having conviction in how you do things.
225
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Even if someone else comes in and says, no, you should be doing it this way.
226
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OK, I respect that.
227
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But guess what?
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We do it this way for this reason.
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And we believe it works.
230
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And that's more valuable than anything.
231
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So and then, yeah, with football, I mean, really our best teams, you could tell they were going to be the best team because of the way they worked out in the weight room during the summer.
232
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Right.
233
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So it wasn't about how talented or who was on the roster.
234
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It was how well did they gel?
235
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How good was attendance?
236
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And then, you know, the reps that were being done in the summer when it was later in December.
237
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And yeah, football is a very physical game.
238
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We weren't tired.
239
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Right.
240
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We were getting stronger as the game went on.
241
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We were still working collectively as a team because we showed up, right?
242
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We bonded.
243
00:16:13.981 --> 00:16:17.364
We got to know each other's strengths, each other's weaknesses.
244
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I learned how to coach, right?
245
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I can't coach somebody if they don't show up to practice.
246
00:16:23.210 --> 00:16:34.580
And some of the best athletes in the world, you hear them not liking practice, but it's like, well, practice is really where you separate, even at the highest levels, the elite in professional categories.
247
00:16:34.640 --> 00:16:39.524
So, yeah, it's just the same stuff we've taken into the business, reflecting back.
248
00:16:39.544 --> 00:16:42.527
And I read most emails that come in.
249
00:16:42.587 --> 00:16:43.688
I respond quickly.
250
00:16:44.648 --> 00:16:47.770
Slack, I still am in Slack on operational stuff.
251
00:16:47.830 --> 00:16:55.394
And hey, guys, let's make sure we're on top of this or hey, we forgot to put that report on our letterhead.
252
00:16:56.254 --> 00:16:58.555
I mean, just little stuff, right?
253
00:16:58.575 --> 00:17:03.398
Because that sets the expectation for everything else that we do moving forward.
254
00:17:04.008 --> 00:17:04.589
Absolutely.
255
00:17:05.650 --> 00:17:07.232
Many, many businesses.
256
00:17:07.252 --> 00:17:12.457
I want to I want to divert now into a little bit of, you know, the marketing that you guys do.
257
00:17:12.838 --> 00:17:13.018
Sure.
258
00:17:13.178 --> 00:17:23.889
And, you know, sitting on the at the beginning, you know, as a marketing strategist, you know, before my clients go into doing what, you know, you guys do for the clients.
259
00:17:24.770 --> 00:17:31.374
Small businesses, entrepreneurs, startups, founders, they feel overwhelmed by all of it.
260
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SEO, social media, email, paid advertising, AI.
261
00:17:35.016 --> 00:17:37.178
And it just keeps slapping them in the face.
262
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And all the other channels that are available.
263
00:17:40.059 --> 00:17:45.703
Where should a business owner begin when they do not have the time or the budget to do everything?
264
00:17:46.881 --> 00:17:47.141
Yeah.
265
00:17:48.002 --> 00:17:51.903
I really think it's discovery of their own business is where they need to start.
266
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Right.
267
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And it's funny.
268
00:17:54.083 --> 00:18:04.987
It's like you're 10 years into the business and I'm about to reference like early day article that I wrote that like turned me on to SEO because we didn't have any money for paid ads or whatever.
269
00:18:05.027 --> 00:18:09.908
And I just wrote the questions that I would ask potential clients down
270
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put it as a blog.
271
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It ended up being the 41 questions you should ask, generated tons of inbound leads, etc.
272
00:18:17.934 --> 00:18:23.138
But I continuously go back to it because the first section is discovery.
273
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Who are you as a business?
274
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What are your values?
275
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Who is your customer?
276
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What do they look like?
277
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How do they buy?
278
00:18:32.905 --> 00:18:35.828
Go back and look at your last 10 customers and go through...
279
00:18:36.308 --> 00:18:37.229
Where did they come from?
280
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What was the sales process like?
281
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Who handled the deal?
282
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Who talked to them?
283
00:18:42.573 --> 00:18:45.776
How many times did they have to talk to them?
284
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So I think really getting an intimate understanding of your business before you do anything.
285
00:18:52.181 --> 00:18:57.545
And then that will help you to prioritize, okay, where should I focus?
286
00:18:57.765 --> 00:18:59.267
If it is marketing efforts,
287
00:18:59.807 --> 00:19:03.268
or whatever resources you do have, because that's the beauty about marketing too.
288
00:19:03.728 --> 00:19:08.569
It gets a bad rap because anybody can do it, but it's also, that's the beauty of it is anybody can do it.
289
00:19:08.609 --> 00:19:13.330
You can start to figure out like, okay, I know that my people buy on LinkedIn.
290
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I'm going to post once a day on LinkedIn and that's what I'm going to commit to.
291
00:19:17.651 --> 00:19:28.474
And then I know I maybe need to talk to a consultant, but I want to focus on LinkedIn because that's where I identified my buyers are because I'm B2B and I need to talk to so-and-so in these types of businesses.
292
00:19:29.874 --> 00:19:35.921
So I think that's where, you know, I really recommend them, you know, to your point, there's so many things out there.
293
00:19:36.101 --> 00:19:37.342
And there's so there.
294
00:19:37.783 --> 00:19:38.744
This is the tricky part.
295
00:19:38.804 --> 00:19:41.527
There are so many things that work, too.
296
00:19:41.967 --> 00:19:43.629
Yeah, there really are.
297
00:19:43.789 --> 00:19:44.710
It's just knowing.
298
00:19:45.431 --> 00:19:51.494
when to use them, how to use them, whether or not they even fit into how your business operates.
299
00:19:51.634 --> 00:19:56.957
A lot of times we'll find mismatches in that marketing is actually working.
300
00:19:57.397 --> 00:19:59.578
It's sales that has the issues.
301
00:20:00.078 --> 00:20:02.420
They don't know how to get people on the phone.
302
00:20:02.840 --> 00:20:04.481
They don't ask the right questions.
303
00:20:04.521 --> 00:20:06.181
They don't follow up promptly.
304
00:20:06.642 --> 00:20:09.503
They don't have automation maybe helping them to do those things.
305
00:20:09.543 --> 00:20:12.985
So they're just getting inundated by leads and they don't know how to
306
00:20:13.545 --> 00:20:18.270
sort through what ones they should or should not be spending time on.
307
00:20:18.330 --> 00:20:22.233
Next thing you know, you got an administrative problem on your hand, not a marketing problem.
308
00:20:23.474 --> 00:20:27.718
So yeah, I think that's where, again, ask yourself the hard questions.
309
00:20:27.898 --> 00:20:29.260
What am I trying to accomplish?
310
00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:31.161
Who am I trying to accomplish it with?
311
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How do they buy?
312
00:20:32.863 --> 00:20:33.724
Where do they buy?
313
00:20:33.744 --> 00:20:40.530
And then I think that will help you prioritize maybe where you start to look or who you talk to.
314
00:20:41.631 --> 00:20:41.912
Right.
315
00:20:42.412 --> 00:20:48.518
And where you focus your your time or resources that you do have, regardless of how big or small they might be.
316
00:20:49.185 --> 00:20:50.086
Yeah, absolutely.
317
00:20:50.506 --> 00:20:56.451
I love the, I love the concept of, you know, going back and looking at, cause clients tend to not do that.
318
00:20:56.511 --> 00:20:56.751
Right.
319
00:20:56.771 --> 00:21:00.413
I mean, it's crazy to me because it's like the research and the data is sitting there.
320
00:21:01.634 --> 00:21:08.199
And I think they just, they just don't know how to leverage it and they don't know how to utilize like what is in their back pocket.
321
00:21:08.379 --> 00:21:12.382
And, and that's information that is readily available and it costs nothing to them.
322
00:21:12.502 --> 00:21:15.225
So it's just, you know, pull it all out and, and,
323
00:21:16.125 --> 00:21:23.051
And reconfigure it and figure out, you know, who's who in the zoo and then chase after them times 10 or whatever.
324
00:21:23.071 --> 00:21:25.333
Yeah, you nailed it, right?
325
00:21:25.814 --> 00:21:34.281
And, you know, sometimes I get a bad rap and I've had, you know, some battles with clients of like, you know, oh, you don't want to try new things.
326
00:21:34.682 --> 00:21:36.023
And it's not even that.
327
00:21:36.083 --> 00:21:37.924
It's just you also need to have...
328
00:21:38.785 --> 00:21:43.247
a systematic or a strategic approach to how you might be doing certain things.
329
00:21:43.287 --> 00:21:46.328
I'm not saying billboards are a bad investment.
330
00:21:46.688 --> 00:21:48.749
I'm saying billboards can be costly.
331
00:21:49.149 --> 00:21:57.473
And if you don't have proper tracking or you don't align with what are you trying to get out of it, then you might just be burning money.
332
00:21:57.933 --> 00:22:07.140
And it might make more sense at the time to let's at least put it into something where we will get data back because we don't even know who our customer is right now.
333
00:22:07.281 --> 00:22:07.541
Right.
334
00:22:07.841 --> 00:22:09.282
Don't throw a billboard out there.
335
00:22:09.422 --> 00:22:13.185
Target inbound search or again, whatever the makeup might be.
336
00:22:13.305 --> 00:22:17.349
So we just want to make sure, OK, based on what budget the client has.
337
00:22:17.869 --> 00:22:19.450
It's properly allocated.
338
00:22:19.911 --> 00:22:21.292
It's diversified.
339
00:22:21.672 --> 00:22:23.253
It's doubling down on winners.
340
00:22:23.413 --> 00:22:34.062
It's quickly able to isolate and kill off losers in terms of platform or ad copy, creative message, email, pop up.
341
00:22:34.782 --> 00:22:37.404
It doesn't even matter what the variable is, right?
342
00:22:37.805 --> 00:22:40.647
The process and the optimization remains the same.
343
00:22:41.124 --> 00:22:45.286
And then you're tying that out to measurement and results.
344
00:22:46.087 --> 00:22:52.691
And this is one I think early on to local business, especially because they don't know what to measure, is just measure something.
345
00:22:53.091 --> 00:23:03.477
So even if you don't know exactly maybe what your lifetime value of the customer is, then start by, hey, how many more calls are you getting this month versus the month before when you weren't doing that?
346
00:23:04.536 --> 00:23:05.677
And can you measure that?
347
00:23:05.817 --> 00:23:06.137
Great.
348
00:23:06.478 --> 00:23:07.919
Then use that baseline.
349
00:23:08.099 --> 00:23:11.602
And then you can get more sophisticated as time goes on.
350
00:23:12.182 --> 00:23:17.646
And you have clarity in what's working, what's not, because you're actually measuring it against something.
351
00:23:17.666 --> 00:23:23.751
And you'll be shocked how many agencies and businesses just spend money on marketing.
352
00:23:24.151 --> 00:23:25.913
And I'm like, okay, did it work?
353
00:23:26.524 --> 00:23:29.447
well, yeah, maybe.
354
00:23:29.687 --> 00:23:32.830
Did you put a number down that you were going to know?
355
00:23:33.431 --> 00:23:39.858
And I'm like, oh, you know, just even having that alone is going to make marketing more successful.
356
00:23:40.138 --> 00:23:42.500
So just little stuff, little stuff.
357
00:23:42.861 --> 00:23:43.361
For sure.
358
00:23:43.401 --> 00:23:43.801
For sure.
359
00:23:44.422 --> 00:23:49.968
What do you think then is the one thing business owners tend to overcomplicate that could actually be made much simpler?
360
00:23:51.122 --> 00:23:54.304
Yeah, it's action more than anything, right?
361
00:23:55.105 --> 00:23:56.506
We do a ton of blogs.
362
00:23:56.626 --> 00:23:58.187
So we do 4...
363
00:23:58.307 --> 00:24:04.331
I think last month we did 435 total published blogs across our clients.
364
00:24:04.351 --> 00:24:09.935
And the ones that perform best, it isn't necessarily that they have the best content.
365
00:24:10.395 --> 00:24:13.518
It's that they have the best process to get things actually approved.
366
00:24:14.543 --> 00:24:18.665
most efficiently or they're posting at a higher cadence.
367
00:24:18.985 --> 00:24:27.229
And they're not worried about always trying to build the perfect blog or the perfect ad or the perfect video.
368
00:24:27.569 --> 00:24:31.591
And I think a lot of times for business owners too, and I get it, founders, entrepreneurs,
369
00:24:32.211 --> 00:24:33.653
It's ego driven, right?
370
00:24:33.693 --> 00:24:37.658
They maybe they don't like the way they look or they don't like the way they sound.
371
00:24:37.818 --> 00:24:44.626
Or even if they're not in it, they're like, oh, no, people aren't going to like the colors we used or the the graphic.
372
00:24:45.167 --> 00:24:48.090
And what happens is then they don't they don't publish anything.
373
00:24:48.171 --> 00:24:48.791
Right.
374
00:24:48.811 --> 00:24:51.815
Or they are slow to publish anything.
375
00:24:52.055 --> 00:24:54.196
And so I think that's it.
376
00:24:54.296 --> 00:24:59.218
It's really like paralysis analysis, like stop overthinking some of this stuff, right?
377
00:24:59.638 --> 00:25:04.219
Because at the end of the day, you have no idea how the market's going to respond.
378
00:25:04.840 --> 00:25:07.821
Even if the market responds a certain way today.
379
00:25:08.601 --> 00:25:14.049
What's to say that they're not going to respond completely differently 30 days from now?
380
00:25:14.510 --> 00:25:17.114
And then you really want to talk about it.
381
00:25:17.515 --> 00:25:18.817
It's just algorithmically.
382
00:25:18.857 --> 00:25:24.265
If we want to get into the science, you need to be actually just distributing information.
383
00:25:24.425 --> 00:25:28.830
at a more frequent cadence because it gives you higher opportunity.
384
00:25:28.950 --> 00:25:39.741
It gives the algorithm better understanding of the content and material to then when you do continuously post future, future, future, it's actually targeted to the proper audience.
385
00:25:39.841 --> 00:25:42.744
So when you only post once every single month,
386
00:25:43.565 --> 00:25:46.487
it has no idea who to put it in front of.
387
00:25:46.647 --> 00:25:47.648
And so what does it do?
388
00:25:48.068 --> 00:25:48.808
It guesses.
389
00:25:49.309 --> 00:25:50.409
No one responds.
390
00:25:50.790 --> 00:25:51.950
No one likes it.
391
00:25:52.611 --> 00:25:54.192
Random people are getting it.
392
00:25:54.432 --> 00:25:56.013
And it just sits there, right?
393
00:25:56.033 --> 00:25:57.734
And all my content doesn't work.
394
00:25:58.074 --> 00:26:01.657
I spent all month on this post and it didn't go anywhere.
395
00:26:01.977 --> 00:26:03.138
Marketing doesn't work.
396
00:26:03.738 --> 00:26:08.261
No, you're just, your approach to marketing doesn't work.
397
00:26:08.281 --> 00:26:08.861
Doesn't work.
398
00:26:09.041 --> 00:26:10.382
Yeah, absolutely.
399
00:26:10.963 --> 00:26:11.583
Absolutely.
400
00:26:12.403 --> 00:26:12.744
Absolutely.
401
00:26:13.992 --> 00:26:19.695
So in that sense, you know, how can a small company create that multi-channel strategy?
402
00:26:20.296 --> 00:26:30.101
Obviously being that, you know, all of these multi-channels and the challenges have to channels have to be a good fit within where they are in their business.
403
00:26:30.621 --> 00:26:37.165
But talk to me a little bit about how they would do that without spreading its budget like in team too thin across the board.
404
00:26:37.465 --> 00:26:39.866
And that, of course, depends on like where they are.
405
00:26:39.886 --> 00:26:40.707
Are they just starting?
406
00:26:40.787 --> 00:26:42.948
Are they like in growth mode and so on and so forth?
407
00:26:43.028 --> 00:26:45.690
But at least the through line is pretty similar, I'm assuming.
408
00:26:45.710 --> 00:26:46.290
Yeah, of course.
409
00:26:46.390 --> 00:26:50.953
I'll give you two examples too, just to show how I think there is a common thread in a lot of this, right?
410
00:26:51.013 --> 00:26:53.174
We'll do B2B and then B2C.
411
00:26:53.274 --> 00:26:55.696
So B2B, and this is what we do.
412
00:26:56.196 --> 00:27:01.759
We take our calls that we have and we use AI note takers on them.
413
00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:02.359
Very simple.
414
00:27:02.399 --> 00:27:03.160
Everybody's heard of them.
415
00:27:03.520 --> 00:27:04.521
They transcribe it.
416
00:27:04.841 --> 00:27:06.002
They take notes from it.
417
00:27:06.463 --> 00:27:07.724
What do we also do with that?
418
00:27:08.225 --> 00:27:22.238
Anytime we have a nice, fun, exciting, strategic call where we solved a big problem or challenge, that's what we use to then generate content for social media platforms.
419
00:27:22.418 --> 00:27:22.658
right?
420
00:27:22.738 --> 00:27:40.311
So now all of a sudden, when our company page is posting on LinkedIn, that content is as raw and real as it gets, because we're just actually extracting the story out from a real meeting that we had either with the client, or maybe it was a prospect.
421
00:27:40.432 --> 00:27:47.197
Or, you know, sometimes I like to make content around just like strategic partnership conversations that I'm talking about, right?
422
00:27:47.217 --> 00:27:47.497
And like,
423
00:27:47.797 --> 00:27:50.537
hey, here's why I'm having this conversation with this person.
424
00:27:50.557 --> 00:27:54.178
And I publish through the entrepreneurial lens and things like that.
425
00:27:54.278 --> 00:27:56.458
So that's one way, right?
426
00:27:56.558 --> 00:27:59.359
And then, yeah, you have to use some tools.
427
00:27:59.379 --> 00:28:00.219
There's plenty of them.
428
00:28:00.239 --> 00:28:07.320
You can take that content, upload it, distribute it to LinkedIn and X, or you take it even further.
429
00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:14.141
I have some LLM automation that will not only take that transcript, but it'll template it into a LinkedIn post.
430
00:28:14.201 --> 00:28:15.782
It'll also break that up and put
431
00:28:17.822 --> 00:28:20.663
X tweets, I think tweets still around.
432
00:28:20.703 --> 00:28:22.843
People still know what that is, right?
433
00:28:22.903 --> 00:28:26.064
That you can post and distribute through there, right?
434
00:28:26.144 --> 00:28:34.545
And then if you really wanted to, you know, you get somebody that could go in and even just edit the call if you do it like via where we're doing.
435
00:28:34.585 --> 00:28:39.446
Riverside FM is an amazing tool and you could start to distribute pretty quickly there.
436
00:28:39.567 --> 00:28:46.028
So B2B and then like B2C, I think the one I like, we have a home remodeling construction.
437
00:28:46.048 --> 00:28:46.148
Yeah.
438
00:28:46.848 --> 00:28:56.094
They mandate their project managers anytime they're on site, walk through the house and take video of what's going on and what have they done.
439
00:28:56.194 --> 00:29:03.778
They were already doing it because they were using it for quality assurance components and project management, uh, uh, reasons.
440
00:29:04.218 --> 00:29:11.523
But now they're just sending that information to our team and we're able to then go edit video.
441
00:29:11.623 --> 00:29:11.983
Right.
442
00:29:12.043 --> 00:29:14.965
And you could easily just do that type of stuff when you're on site.
443
00:29:15.685 --> 00:29:22.590
make sure you're just kind of documenting and bringing to life the things that you're already doing.
444
00:29:22.670 --> 00:29:25.912
So we don't want it to be, oh, I got to go and record.
445
00:29:25.972 --> 00:29:31.556
No, just record the stuff you're already doing and then figure out how to maximize and leverage that.
446
00:29:32.717 --> 00:29:41.163
And you're just going to be repurposing and you're cutting down the cost of production of that content because you're able to get it out in so many different ways.
447
00:29:41.843 --> 00:29:43.945
And you can start... You'll start... You'll figure it out.
448
00:29:44.365 --> 00:29:46.486
Start to build process around it, right?
449
00:29:46.706 --> 00:29:54.310
That's a lot of stuff we're doing is really just what is the process to take this content and get it distributed as many places as possible.
450
00:29:55.130 --> 00:29:55.931
Yeah, no, that's great.
451
00:29:57.031 --> 00:30:04.455
I want to talk a little bit about your 30, 60, 90 day growth framework that you've used across a multitude of clients.
452
00:30:04.675 --> 00:30:06.095
I mean, let's say hundreds of clients.
453
00:30:06.555 --> 00:30:09.377
Can you break that framework down a little bit for the audience?
454
00:30:09.976 --> 00:30:10.757
Yeah, I would love to.
455
00:30:10.837 --> 00:30:12.219
Thanks for asking about that as well.
456
00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:22.391
So what we saw when we started to look at client data over the years was a majority of our churn came in the first 90 days.
457
00:30:22.591 --> 00:30:28.538
So that's where we immediately said, OK, we need to look at what we're doing in those 90 days.
458
00:30:28.778 --> 00:30:33.480
How are we transitioning from a close to onboarding team?
459
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:35.580
That was an immediate drop off, right?
460
00:30:36.140 --> 00:30:38.081
I would go in mainly as me.
461
00:30:38.161 --> 00:30:40.082
I'd go, I'd sell this, that, the other.
462
00:30:40.102 --> 00:30:42.122
And then I'd be like, okay, everybody, here you go, go.
463
00:30:42.542 --> 00:30:50.145
And we didn't have like a formal process for me to take what could be in certain instances, months of conversations and strategy.
464
00:30:50.685 --> 00:30:56.527
and then consolidate it, compress it, and get it to our team for actual action.
465
00:30:56.627 --> 00:30:58.368
So we focused on that.
466
00:30:58.608 --> 00:31:02.070
What are we doing in those first 3-5 days when they close?
467
00:31:02.510 --> 00:31:04.310
Alright, we know we need to get access points.
468
00:31:04.410 --> 00:31:06.271
We need to get reporting going.
469
00:31:06.311 --> 00:31:10.673
We need to notify the team and get proper information from the sales group.
470
00:31:11.173 --> 00:31:11.433
over.
471
00:31:12.634 --> 00:31:17.295
So then in that first 30 days, what we're doing is we're making sure we're as prepared as possible.
472
00:31:17.755 --> 00:31:21.997
And then we're aligning... And I've mentioned some of this stuff with the client.
473
00:31:22.117 --> 00:31:22.937
What are we measuring?
474
00:31:23.438 --> 00:31:24.358
What are we tracking?
475
00:31:24.498 --> 00:31:35.342
A lot of times we'll have to install advanced analytics or get additional GSC, Google Search Console, or clean up their tag manager, get pixels firing, etc.
476
00:31:36.362 --> 00:31:36.762
And then by
477
00:31:38.343 --> 00:31:42.604
probably that mid mark of that first month, we are starting with active campaigns.
478
00:31:43.164 --> 00:31:47.685
So by the end of that 30 days, you've got your tracking, you've got your reporting, you know what you're reporting on.
479
00:31:47.965 --> 00:31:54.166
We got our meetings set up for scheduled cadences, and we're getting content and information into the market.
480
00:31:55.246 --> 00:31:57.267
30 to 60, validating.
481
00:31:57.547 --> 00:31:59.467
So we obviously put together a plan.
482
00:31:59.807 --> 00:32:01.467
We said, we're going to target these people.
483
00:32:01.507 --> 00:32:02.908
We're going to use these keywords.
484
00:32:02.928 --> 00:32:04.328
We're going to use these ads.
485
00:32:05.028 --> 00:32:07.188
what's working immediately, right?
486
00:32:07.409 --> 00:32:09.349
Are we getting good initial indicators?
487
00:32:09.769 --> 00:32:10.529
Are they bad?
488
00:32:10.889 --> 00:32:17.131
We, a lot of times, will have to coach the client through learning phases, giving it that time to actually distribute.
489
00:32:17.991 --> 00:32:24.072
But then we're seeing, yeah, what's winning, what's not, and then monitoring through that 60-day.
490
00:32:24.452 --> 00:32:28.773
And then that 60 to 90, that's really where, okay, pedal to the metal, right?
491
00:32:29.173 --> 00:32:31.474
we're either proving and starting to scale.
492
00:32:31.894 --> 00:32:40.017
We're already maybe adjusting off of some assumptions that we started to run that aren't working the way that they worked.
493
00:32:40.057 --> 00:32:44.919
Different services are also going to have different KPIs or benchmarks.
494
00:32:44.979 --> 00:32:52.501
So our paid media, if we haven't generated a lead by day 60 or a sale, something is wrong.
495
00:32:52.541 --> 00:32:55.382
We've probably already identified that in 30 to 45 days, right?
496
00:32:57.344 --> 00:33:00.868
But then it's like, okay, is it SEO work that we're doing that's longer term?
497
00:33:01.469 --> 00:33:03.731
Are we getting more impressions to the website?
498
00:33:03.771 --> 00:33:06.835
What are the leading indicators that we need to work on?
499
00:33:07.696 --> 00:33:14.064
What else is our content doing that we're putting on the blogs before it does start to drive that organic traffic?
500
00:33:14.124 --> 00:33:14.404
Yeah.
501
00:33:14.925 --> 00:33:15.125
Yeah.
502
00:33:15.145 --> 00:33:18.169
And then at that point, we really are analyzing.
503
00:33:18.229 --> 00:33:19.851
Do we need to make changes?
504
00:33:20.912 --> 00:33:22.334
We provide optionality.
505
00:33:22.374 --> 00:33:28.380
That's why we do like... We have SEO, GEO, paid media buying across all different channels.
506
00:33:28.420 --> 00:33:30.222
We have content, email marketing.
507
00:33:30.503 --> 00:33:31.764
Because sometimes we...
508
00:33:32.525 --> 00:33:36.329
Yeah, we're not just going to keep hitting our head against the wall doing something if it's not working.
509
00:33:36.729 --> 00:33:42.655
And we need to go to the client, like I said, face the music and say, Hey, I know we ran 3 months.
510
00:33:43.015 --> 00:33:44.497
Let's say it's 4 months, right?
511
00:33:44.877 --> 00:33:49.622
We're generally working like 6 to 12 months agreements.
512
00:33:49.722 --> 00:33:50.703
We will change.
513
00:33:50.943 --> 00:33:52.064
We're recommending we put...
514
00:33:52.725 --> 00:33:54.588
this service in its place.
515
00:33:54.848 --> 00:34:02.799
We ramp up maybe content deliverables or double down on stuff that is working to make sure that our client's happy with the performance that's being generated.
516
00:34:02.900 --> 00:34:07.987
So yeah, it's just kind of how we operate and the framework that we use.
517
00:34:08.544 --> 00:34:08.904
Love it.
518
00:34:09.024 --> 00:34:13.447
I mean, systems, frameworks, processes, they are there for a reason.
519
00:34:14.027 --> 00:34:14.487
100%.
520
00:34:15.148 --> 00:34:15.628
Yeah.
521
00:34:15.728 --> 00:34:17.029
And that's where we found...
522
00:34:17.469 --> 00:34:18.390
It's been a challenge.
523
00:34:18.450 --> 00:34:34.198
That's been very hard work because while it's fun that we get to work with all these clients, different shapes, sizes, we also realize like, wow, it's actually even more important for us to have a consistent process because we are doing so many different things.
524
00:34:34.259 --> 00:34:34.439
So
525
00:34:35.219 --> 00:34:42.025
whether we're doing SEO or we're doing paid media, we're always working towards measurement and alignment, right?
526
00:34:42.286 --> 00:34:50.794
SEO has to attribute their work in the same way that our content team does, in the same way that our Google ads team does, right?
527
00:34:50.874 --> 00:34:55.418
Might look a little bit different, but again, same principles in terms of how we operate the business.
528
00:34:56.139 --> 00:34:56.379
Yeah.
529
00:34:57.520 --> 00:34:59.842
So I want to dive in a little bit to...
530
00:35:01.520 --> 00:35:03.363
ROI and marketing ROI.
531
00:35:03.503 --> 00:35:13.577
And I love the statement I'm about to say because I'm 100% with you, but you've suggested that many agencies are not completely honest about marketing ROI.
532
00:35:13.637 --> 00:35:16.441
And this is something that I have seen over the course of
533
00:35:16.861 --> 00:35:29.813
working internally with companies and then hiring out, you know, also having clients come to me and, you know, having to rehabilitate them back into, yeah, they didn't really steer you in the right direction.
534
00:35:29.853 --> 00:35:39.562
So being a little bit of that underqualified, maybe more qualified psychologist because we're in the weeds with them and, you know, really supporting them.
535
00:35:40.062 --> 00:35:40.563
So true.
536
00:35:40.683 --> 00:35:42.504
But yeah.
537
00:35:42.524 --> 00:35:44.926
Can we coin that together, please?
538
00:35:44.966 --> 00:35:47.128
Yeah, I'll take that to market immediately.
539
00:35:47.469 --> 00:35:48.890
Marketing psychologists.
540
00:35:49.410 --> 00:35:51.552
Yeah, it is a thing, guys.
541
00:35:52.052 --> 00:35:52.333
It is.
542
00:35:53.594 --> 00:35:58.038
What are agencies and sometimes business owners getting wrong about measurement?
543
00:35:58.518 --> 00:35:58.738
Yeah.
544
00:35:58.758 --> 00:36:03.162
And let's not talk about those stupid impressions that these agencies love to talk about.
545
00:36:03.242 --> 00:36:06.365
Well, we got you 4 million impressions, but I didn't get one impression.
546
00:36:07.018 --> 00:36:07.718
One conversion.
547
00:36:07.919 --> 00:36:08.819
Yeah, you nailed it.
548
00:36:08.919 --> 00:36:10.760
You got that vanity metric, right?
549
00:36:10.820 --> 00:36:16.502
I think that's what a lot of times marketing gets that bad rap, like snake oil, selling smoke and mirrors.
550
00:36:17.403 --> 00:36:20.004
And it is frustrating when you see it.
551
00:36:20.184 --> 00:36:25.747
And it's something that even the agencies and not everyone's like, you have varying degrees, of course.
552
00:36:25.767 --> 00:36:28.068
But we were seeing, OK, we'd even come into the ones that.
553
00:36:28.568 --> 00:36:34.372
maybe we're, yes, tracking ad spend and that return, but they're not even factoring in their agency fees.
554
00:36:34.392 --> 00:36:38.115
And their agency fees are more than the ad spend itself.
555
00:36:38.175 --> 00:36:43.359
So when you factor in the profitability... And so that's the key is profitability.
556
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:47.782
And you hear people talk about this company did this much revenue.
557
00:36:47.862 --> 00:36:48.022
And...
558
00:36:48.422 --> 00:36:49.803
Oh, 50 million in revenue.
559
00:36:50.103 --> 00:36:56.107
Well, yeah, but it costs them $49 million to generate that 50 million, right?
560
00:36:56.408 --> 00:37:03.212
I'm more impressed by a business that's doing 25 million and taking home 10 or 15 million, whatever the margin might be.
561
00:37:03.733 --> 00:37:05.254
So a lot of times, yeah, either...
562
00:37:05.954 --> 00:37:11.139
They're on that spectrum where they're showing you impressions or they're showing you even clicks too.
563
00:37:11.700 --> 00:37:21.889
With SEO, you think about clicks, but it's like, okay, yeah, the clicks, but the clicks need to lead to a call, a form submission, right?
564
00:37:21.929 --> 00:37:28.656
And if they're not, then it doesn't matter that we increased your traffic by 100% month over month at all.
565
00:37:29.736 --> 00:37:33.178
So yeah, and then you're getting into ROAS return on ad spend.
566
00:37:33.518 --> 00:37:40.062
But again, if you're getting a 2x ROAS, sure, you're two for one, but how much is the agency fee?
567
00:37:40.082 --> 00:37:48.906
And a lot of times those don't get calculated because they're just pulling those ROAS calculations directly from Meta, which is just giving you the ad spend, right?
568
00:37:50.007 --> 00:37:50.187
Yeah.
569
00:37:50.207 --> 00:37:53.569
And that's where I think for us, too, it's a lot of fit.
570
00:37:53.790 --> 00:37:57.392
Like marketing agencies need to be a fit both ways.
571
00:37:57.512 --> 00:37:59.573
Like they need to be a fit for the client.
572
00:38:00.034 --> 00:38:05.877
And then good marketing agencies will only work with clients that are good fits for them, in my opinion.
573
00:38:05.937 --> 00:38:10.080
So what I mean by that, too, is we need transparency.
574
00:38:10.220 --> 00:38:21.404
Like we straight up tell them like, hey, if you won't give us insight into your numbers, then it's going to be really hard for us to know or drive the results that you expect out of us.
575
00:38:21.664 --> 00:38:29.827
Or we need to make sure we align on if you're not going to tell me how much money these emails generate, how much is each email worth to you then?
576
00:38:30.487 --> 00:38:35.869
And we'll use that as the barometer to then ensure that it's definitive.
577
00:38:36.450 --> 00:38:40.531
Or you're getting into this, they kind of work, they kind of didn't.
578
00:38:40.952 --> 00:38:46.154
And in reality, people just really don't know because they're not properly tracking.
579
00:38:46.254 --> 00:38:48.815
They're not working with an agency that is driving their...
580
00:38:49.495 --> 00:38:52.176
So yeah, we're looking at like, what's your lifetime value?
581
00:38:52.536 --> 00:38:53.936
What's the profit margin?
582
00:38:54.276 --> 00:38:55.496
Where are our numbers?
583
00:38:55.556 --> 00:38:57.217
How much did it cost for the media buy?
584
00:38:57.697 --> 00:38:59.217
How much was our agency fee?
585
00:38:59.257 --> 00:39:05.499
You're factoring that into your COGS to get you to the margins that actually matter for a business.
586
00:39:06.299 --> 00:39:12.240
And that's why, well, not all businesses exist to make profit, but they should.
587
00:39:12.660 --> 00:39:15.081
Otherwise, it'd be a nonprofit, right?
588
00:39:15.241 --> 00:39:15.501
Yeah.
589
00:39:15.801 --> 00:39:16.001
Yeah.
590
00:39:16.081 --> 00:39:19.122
And even nonprofits somehow somewhere are making profit.
591
00:39:19.702 --> 00:39:21.003
Let's be honest.
592
00:39:21.223 --> 00:39:23.764
That's an interesting, that's a whole nother conversation.
593
00:39:23.864 --> 00:39:24.084
Yeah.
594
00:39:25.185 --> 00:39:35.169
So, so then what I wanted to ask from, from a growth standpoint, you know, why can rapid growth sometimes hide some serious problems in a company's marketing or profitability?
595
00:39:35.729 --> 00:39:36.089
Hmm.
596
00:39:36.149 --> 00:39:36.429
Yeah.
597
00:39:36.769 --> 00:39:41.291
Because I think if depending on your model, so we have a big retention model, right?
598
00:39:41.371 --> 00:39:52.614
So sometimes if you're bringing in new business through marketing and advertising, but you're also, you know, you're just scaling up and we've experienced this, like we had a big inbound
599
00:39:53.134 --> 00:39:56.715
flux of organic traffic and we were able to close quite a bit of it.
600
00:39:57.115 --> 00:40:02.237
But then it led to like, oh no, we got out in front of our skis operationally, right?
601
00:40:02.637 --> 00:40:13.180
We didn't have enough coverage with account managers or our technical team got bogged down because you didn't kind of control the leads, the demand.
602
00:40:13.340 --> 00:40:20.942
And so that's where we really push again, go and fit the client as someone that thinks about marketing and advertising as an investment, right?
603
00:40:21.382 --> 00:40:25.267
You're going to do this every single year, no matter what.
604
00:40:25.668 --> 00:40:27.831
It's a core belief.
605
00:40:28.011 --> 00:40:30.815
You understand the value marketing provides.
606
00:40:30.835 --> 00:40:33.158
You know good businesses need good marketing.
607
00:40:33.558 --> 00:40:35.901
And then you're going to consistently monitor it.
608
00:40:36.242 --> 00:40:37.604
You're not going to overreact.
609
00:40:37.984 --> 00:40:38.345
Right.
610
00:40:38.405 --> 00:40:45.953
You're going to take a zoomed out view and approach because then that's when we can get more predictable behavior.
611
00:40:46.414 --> 00:40:46.714
Right.
612
00:40:46.794 --> 00:40:55.704
We can scale much more effectively because if we can get out further from conception, that's our best clients.
613
00:40:55.784 --> 00:40:56.005
Right.
614
00:40:56.025 --> 00:40:57.727
Our best clients are the ones that have been with us.
615
00:40:58.147 --> 00:41:08.240
five years, six years, and the multiple that they're getting on not only the ad spend, but also just our familiarity and ability to make changes for them to generate results.
616
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:12.685
You know, you can't, it's hard to replace that, especially the further out you get.
617
00:41:12.785 --> 00:41:13.046
So,
618
00:41:14.086 --> 00:41:18.988
Yeah, I think the pain points that might uncover is that like, are you ready operationally?
619
00:41:19.468 --> 00:41:24.670
Sales still tends to be a challenge, especially if you're higher ticket items, right?
620
00:41:24.710 --> 00:41:27.211
Like, can you get them through that sales cycle?
621
00:41:27.251 --> 00:41:29.272
You need to see how long is that taking?
622
00:41:29.732 --> 00:41:31.172
Are we bottlenecking anywhere?
623
00:41:31.192 --> 00:41:33.753
Are we actually getting people on the phone?
624
00:41:33.773 --> 00:41:35.814
Because you can generate all the leads in the world.
625
00:41:35.874 --> 00:41:39.635
But great, if you're not converting them, do you have a people problem?
626
00:41:40.015 --> 00:41:40.996
You're generating all these.
627
00:41:41.196 --> 00:41:41.836
And I mean, that's
628
00:41:42.732 --> 00:41:45.514
Those are the fun conversations with CEOs that I have.
629
00:41:45.554 --> 00:41:48.255
Like, hey, you're a VP of sales.
630
00:41:48.315 --> 00:41:48.576
Yeah.
631
00:41:48.976 --> 00:41:49.776
No one likes him.
632
00:41:50.757 --> 00:41:56.240
And the reason you're not closing any deals is because he's kind of not very good at his job.
633
00:41:56.500 --> 00:41:57.901
And he doesn't follow, right?
634
00:41:57.921 --> 00:41:59.983
Yeah.
635
00:42:00.083 --> 00:42:01.443
Sadly.
636
00:42:01.704 --> 00:42:03.445
But sometimes it's good too, right?
637
00:42:03.485 --> 00:42:05.426
You use the marketing to find those things.
638
00:42:05.466 --> 00:42:06.707
Just make sure you have control.
639
00:42:06.727 --> 00:42:06.827
Yeah.
640
00:42:07.287 --> 00:42:12.331
So you don't overextend, you can pull back if you were always trying to help clients with that too.
641
00:42:12.812 --> 00:42:22.400
You want to basically have a diversified marketing spread and you can ramp up, ramp down, pull back, adjust as necessary in a perfect world is what we're trying to build.
642
00:42:23.022 --> 00:42:24.123
Yeah, control is key.
643
00:42:25.863 --> 00:42:30.946
Moving on into SEO, you know, you describe GEO as the new SEO.
644
00:42:31.366 --> 00:42:38.889
And I love this because, you know, I saw a New York Post nonetheless of what they were saying.
645
00:42:39.250 --> 00:42:48.714
And then the guy wasn't even, I should say, not even the guy, the writer or the journalist wasn't even a marketer.
646
00:42:48.874 --> 00:42:50.815
And the headline was SEO is dead.
647
00:42:51.304 --> 00:42:51.704
Yeah.
648
00:42:52.005 --> 00:42:52.605
I hate this.
649
00:42:52.705 --> 00:42:54.006
I think I saw it.
650
00:42:54.066 --> 00:42:55.308
Yeah, I do think I saw it.
651
00:42:55.348 --> 00:42:55.568
Yep.
652
00:42:55.848 --> 00:42:56.088
Yeah.
653
00:42:56.529 --> 00:43:01.113
I rebuttaled it on my LinkedIn because I just thought this is what makes...
654
00:43:02.037 --> 00:43:04.198
entrepreneurs, business owners confused, right?
655
00:43:04.218 --> 00:43:09.461
It's when you have people like this that write these type of commentaries because SEO is not dead.
656
00:43:09.521 --> 00:43:15.123
You know, things evolve and, you know, they grow into, you know, it's like an octopus, you know?
657
00:43:16.104 --> 00:43:22.407
Not necessarily that octopus all of a sudden start growing extra arms, but it's you have a multitude of different tentacles.
658
00:43:22.447 --> 00:43:26.669
And sometimes that tentacle evolves into maybe a different type of...
659
00:43:27.549 --> 00:43:28.630
of task, right?
660
00:43:29.551 --> 00:43:32.515
And that's where SEO is going right now is with GEO.
661
00:43:32.655 --> 00:43:36.599
But I digress with a lot of my very strange analogies.
662
00:43:37.160 --> 00:43:41.064
I talked about an octopus the other day and a similar framework.
663
00:43:41.104 --> 00:43:41.645
Yeah.
664
00:43:41.665 --> 00:43:44.668
You are a marketer after my own heart, Rob.
665
00:43:44.728 --> 00:43:45.889
You're exactly right.
666
00:43:45.989 --> 00:43:46.570
Yeah.
667
00:43:46.650 --> 00:43:47.170
So, you know,
668
00:43:47.811 --> 00:43:48.772
Yeah, it's not dead.
669
00:43:48.992 --> 00:43:49.612
You're right.
670
00:43:49.732 --> 00:43:51.254
But it looks different.
671
00:43:51.374 --> 00:43:53.815
And that's where I think people are getting confused.
672
00:43:53.895 --> 00:43:59.760
And what's happening is if you're just taking average search volume across and we see it, right?
673
00:44:00.180 --> 00:44:08.546
We see it across like four or five different industries all at the same time is there's just less search volume in general.
674
00:44:09.367 --> 00:44:21.460
because instead of going to search, typing in search, get your list, click, come back, type again, click, come back, people are just spending that time on these LLMs and AI, right?
675
00:44:21.841 --> 00:44:26.205
So they're going through, they're doing their research, they're having conversation, et cetera,
676
00:44:26.746 --> 00:44:38.055
But once you get to the end of that, it is making certain recommendations or it's already done research as a part of that process.
677
00:44:38.495 --> 00:44:40.096
And how does it do that research?
678
00:44:40.537 --> 00:44:42.978
It goes to Google searches, clicks.
679
00:44:43.099 --> 00:44:44.900
It's just automating it, right?
680
00:44:44.980 --> 00:44:45.981
It's doing it faster.
681
00:44:46.381 --> 00:44:55.203
So like one of the first things we did in GEO was we weren't we just focused on what searches or what prompts did LLM actually have to go look for.
682
00:44:55.604 --> 00:44:57.924
So that's how we started with our content topics.
683
00:44:58.384 --> 00:45:01.585
And then now what we're seeing is like medium distribution.
684
00:45:01.605 --> 00:45:03.946
And I was talking YouTube, right?
685
00:45:04.006 --> 00:45:07.647
Like videos are becoming a huge LLM citation score.
686
00:45:08.087 --> 00:45:15.816
So instead of blogs or content pages that you would normally do for SEO, it's just a different medium.
687
00:45:15.856 --> 00:45:16.437
And why?
688
00:45:16.577 --> 00:45:18.899
Because it's harder to fake video, right?
689
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:23.985
It's a lot easier now to scale up content pages or scale up blog pages.
690
00:45:24.466 --> 00:45:26.168
And the LLM sometimes do...
691
00:45:26.808 --> 00:45:28.289
that's when they hallucinate, right?
692
00:45:28.309 --> 00:45:33.932
They get bad information, they make up information, whatever it may be.
693
00:45:34.012 --> 00:45:42.717
So we see the video as something that like grounds the trust and the authority for the LLM to match that up.
694
00:45:43.398 --> 00:45:50.842
But going back to SEO being dead, all it does is make those SEO clicks even more valuable.
695
00:45:51.262 --> 00:45:52.984
because there's still huge volume.
696
00:45:53.425 --> 00:45:55.527
There's still just as high intent.
697
00:45:55.948 --> 00:46:04.799
And then not only that, but those ones that are coming as referrals through GPTs, LLM, even Google's Gemini and AI,
698
00:46:06.069 --> 00:46:08.551
the conversion rates have skyrocketed.
699
00:46:08.591 --> 00:46:08.892
Right.
700
00:46:09.312 --> 00:46:14.477
So, or when they get the result and you're the result, what are they doing?
701
00:46:14.817 --> 00:46:15.738
Searching your brand.
702
00:46:16.178 --> 00:46:18.781
So now your, your social media is more important.
703
00:46:19.061 --> 00:46:21.643
Your branded keywords become more important.
704
00:46:22.084 --> 00:46:27.869
We're seeing more direct traffic that is replacing what was maybe that lost search traffic.
705
00:46:27.929 --> 00:46:28.790
But yeah,
706
00:46:29.571 --> 00:46:43.443
If I had to bet on any horse in this LLM race and AI, I mean, it's still Google because all those LLMs, Claw, ChatGPT, they're pulling still from those main sources, right?
707
00:46:43.463 --> 00:46:44.604
The websites themselves.
708
00:46:45.124 --> 00:46:47.306
Google is the best search engine that exists.
709
00:46:48.447 --> 00:46:55.153
But yeah, you're going to see a variety of different things at play in terms of how people are getting information or maybe they're using Claw, right, for Google.
710
00:46:55.573 --> 00:46:58.075
more development stuff or more workflows.
711
00:46:59.616 --> 00:47:00.176
TBD.
712
00:47:00.437 --> 00:47:01.858
We'll see.
713
00:47:02.378 --> 00:47:07.622
I think there's still just as much opportunity in local SEO, national SEO.
714
00:47:07.702 --> 00:47:11.885
And the reason being is flashy light syndrome, right?
715
00:47:12.225 --> 00:47:15.648
It's like, I'll have people come to me like, oh, I need to be on ChachiBT.
716
00:47:16.691 --> 00:47:20.932
You have not even looked at your local business profile for 10 years.
717
00:47:21.212 --> 00:47:22.013
No, you do not.
718
00:47:22.573 --> 00:47:24.473
You need to build your local SEO.
719
00:47:24.573 --> 00:47:25.334
You need to build.
720
00:47:25.554 --> 00:47:26.874
Get organized locally.
721
00:47:27.014 --> 00:47:29.835
You need to build your website the right way, right?
722
00:47:30.015 --> 00:47:30.495
Yeah.
723
00:47:30.515 --> 00:47:31.516
So slow your roll.
724
00:47:31.756 --> 00:47:35.697
The LLM stuff, you know, some people are just getting way ahead of themselves.
725
00:47:35.857 --> 00:47:37.057
I like that you said that.
726
00:47:37.117 --> 00:47:39.378
Like you said flashy light syndrome.
727
00:47:39.758 --> 00:47:46.564
Yeah, it's so true because, you know, I mean, I'm working on the strategy with like an IT company.
728
00:47:46.604 --> 00:47:50.547
And he was like, you know, we also do he's like, everything that we implement is AI anyway.
729
00:47:50.947 --> 00:47:54.310
He's like, but we have like an AI service like section.
730
00:47:54.350 --> 00:47:55.110
I'm like, but why?
731
00:47:55.130 --> 00:47:57.072
And I'm like, you guys are AI first anyway.
732
00:47:57.092 --> 00:47:58.273
And he was like, I know, but he's like,
733
00:47:58.573 --> 00:48:02.495
It's what like the general public understands and what gets them excited.
734
00:48:02.515 --> 00:48:06.937
And it's just wild because, you know, and I blame it on media.
735
00:48:07.117 --> 00:48:07.357
Right.
736
00:48:07.477 --> 00:48:19.523
And we just have to be smart enough to educate ourselves to understand like, yeah, if I do all of this stuff and to your point, I'm not cleaning up my Google, my business, my website, all this kind of stuff.
737
00:48:19.563 --> 00:48:22.484
Then every effort I make is just going to ricochet off.
738
00:48:24.127 --> 00:48:31.051
It's going to be more expensive because that real estate is going to be at an even higher premium for what I just referenced.
739
00:48:31.311 --> 00:48:37.895
And not only that, but they'll probably never get there in the first place because they don't already have the strong foundation.
740
00:48:38.256 --> 00:48:41.558
It's like, how do you think those citations are getting in there in the first place?
741
00:48:42.138 --> 00:48:44.681
Domain rating, domain authority.
742
00:48:45.141 --> 00:48:47.503
Do they have social media followers?
743
00:48:47.603 --> 00:48:49.846
Can I verify that they're a real person?
744
00:48:50.306 --> 00:48:54.590
That's why podcasts and events are, I mean, event marketing, right?
745
00:48:54.931 --> 00:48:57.113
Just who are people in rooms and then
746
00:48:57.533 --> 00:49:03.175
I'm seeing LinkedIn be really strong because you're sharing and it's like, Oh, that person actually knows that person.
747
00:49:03.235 --> 00:49:05.555
They're not just some AI.
748
00:49:05.695 --> 00:49:06.476
I'll never forget.
749
00:49:06.496 --> 00:49:12.617
I was following an account, like inspirational or maybe entrepreneurial motivational, something like that.
750
00:49:12.838 --> 00:49:18.199
And I loved all the message and, but it took me a month or I don't remember how.
751
00:49:18.279 --> 00:49:23.641
And I realized, Oh my gosh, it was all AI video of this gentleman.
752
00:49:24.001 --> 00:49:24.141
And,
753
00:49:25.141 --> 00:49:28.305
Even though the message was good and yeah, sure, I'll take that.
754
00:49:29.026 --> 00:49:34.272
I want to go find it from someone that's not just producing AI avatars and videos, right?
755
00:49:34.673 --> 00:49:38.257
I want to hear someone saying it and having a conversation like you and I are.
756
00:49:38.598 --> 00:49:42.582
Or maybe I want to see them saying it in person to know that it's actually them.
757
00:49:43.263 --> 00:49:50.490
To know that it's actually their thoughts, their ideas, not just regurgitated or not just referencing a bunch of you know what.
758
00:49:50.590 --> 00:50:03.541
So, yeah, the more we get into AI and artificial this, artificial that, I think it's, you know, it's supply, demand, push, pull, human trust, authority, power.
759
00:50:04.322 --> 00:50:05.783
experience, right?
760
00:50:05.883 --> 00:50:17.809
An LLM can't talk about the 10, 20, 30, whatever the number of years of experience a consultant or executive has in the field dealing with people, dealing with real problems, real challenges.
761
00:50:17.829 --> 00:50:18.009
Yeah.
762
00:50:18.509 --> 00:50:22.031
No, I completely agree because, I mean, there's a lot of like...
763
00:50:23.972 --> 00:50:28.958
I think there is this rush and this fear of, you know, where will AI go?
764
00:50:28.999 --> 00:50:38.250
Because there's this uncertainty and this unknown sort of void of the space that, you know, we're all kind of moving so quickly towards.
765
00:50:38.350 --> 00:50:41.955
But at the same time, I feel that because it's moving so quickly,
766
00:50:42.431 --> 00:50:50.115
You know, I wouldn't necessarily call us the powers that be, but, you know, I don't think marketing is going to fully be taken over by AI.
767
00:50:50.235 --> 00:50:52.736
Neither am I going to like, I don't want to be sold to by an AI.
768
00:50:52.876 --> 00:50:55.498
I don't want a salesperson that's an AI calling me.
769
00:50:55.758 --> 00:50:57.739
Like customer service 101, right?
770
00:50:57.779 --> 00:51:00.260
Everyone hates talking to you want zero zeros.
771
00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:01.481
Give me someone real.
772
00:51:02.221 --> 00:51:04.522
So AI is not going to do any better, right?
773
00:51:04.582 --> 00:51:05.322
No.
774
00:51:05.502 --> 00:51:15.327
And then it's the human factor of being able to tell a story, the human factor of being able to know the search terms that a human is looking for and so on and so forth.
775
00:51:15.407 --> 00:51:15.707
Yes.
776
00:51:16.007 --> 00:51:22.590
What I love about AI is that it's just making things a lot more automated, turnkey, faster.
777
00:51:22.650 --> 00:51:25.471
You know, we're moving in an amazing direction where...
778
00:51:25.891 --> 00:51:36.186
You know, things can happen so much faster than they have in the past, but there still needs to be a human that is adapting and adopting what AI is bringing today because...
779
00:51:37.335 --> 00:51:40.799
an owner is not going to learn how to do all of that.
780
00:51:40.859 --> 00:51:56.594
I mean, and it's, and it takes a lot of work, you know, I'm building something and I've been sitting here on weekends, just building it, you know, I'm talking to Claude and then I'm going into Claude code and then I'm going into like, you know, GitHub and, you know, having conversations with the AIs and myself.
781
00:51:56.634 --> 00:51:59.998
And it's like, at some point the entrepreneur is going to be like, I don't have time for this.
782
00:52:00.578 --> 00:52:01.920
I need to focus on my business.
783
00:52:02.060 --> 00:52:04.924
Somebody's got to handle it, right?
784
00:52:04.964 --> 00:52:05.225
Yeah.
785
00:52:05.345 --> 00:52:06.326
I mentioned it the other day.
786
00:52:06.346 --> 00:52:07.928
I think it was like a LinkedIn post.
787
00:52:07.988 --> 00:52:12.134
And then it's one way conversation too, right?
788
00:52:12.374 --> 00:52:15.098
Once you stop talking to the AI, you're...
789
00:52:15.859 --> 00:52:20.781
the conversation continues in your head, but the AI does not until prompted again.
790
00:52:20.801 --> 00:52:21.082
Right.
791
00:52:21.362 --> 00:52:21.462
Yeah.
792
00:52:21.482 --> 00:52:26.404
And so like, that's that human element that, you know, will never be replaced.
793
00:52:26.504 --> 00:52:28.445
And again, it's just going back to trust.
794
00:52:28.945 --> 00:52:36.449
Who's, who's the most basic, who's real, who's not, you know, who's saying what, how, who are they, where did they come from?
795
00:52:38.010 --> 00:52:40.211
And just people like doing business with people.
796
00:52:40.771 --> 00:52:41.072
Right.
797
00:52:41.192 --> 00:52:43.677
A lot of the best, a lot of the biggest decisions are made.
798
00:52:43.717 --> 00:52:43.997
Why?
799
00:52:44.318 --> 00:52:46.963
Well, I like that, getting that person better than the other.
800
00:52:47.063 --> 00:52:47.343
Right.
801
00:52:47.724 --> 00:52:49.728
That was the final decision.
802
00:52:50.089 --> 00:52:52.633
Or I could just see myself, you know, hiring.
803
00:52:53.547 --> 00:52:59.510
For me, a lot of it really what it comes down is like, can I see myself sitting with this person on a day to day basis?
804
00:52:59.570 --> 00:53:00.131
Right.
805
00:53:00.191 --> 00:53:00.411
Yeah.
806
00:53:00.431 --> 00:53:01.772
Bring them along to a lunch.
807
00:53:01.812 --> 00:53:03.673
Can we bring them along to a random meeting?
808
00:53:04.113 --> 00:53:07.675
You know, are they going to represent the business well outside of the off?
809
00:53:07.695 --> 00:53:13.298
I don't need to worry about them when they're in the office and I'm looking at them like that's not that's not it.
810
00:53:13.378 --> 00:53:17.781
It's how are they going to carry, you know, on the conversations that we have in these walls.
811
00:53:17.821 --> 00:53:19.642
And that's what I can do.
812
00:53:19.802 --> 00:53:20.382
Very true.
813
00:53:20.402 --> 00:53:20.883
This can't.
814
00:53:21.483 --> 00:53:21.983
Very true.
815
00:53:23.084 --> 00:53:34.953
I like how you explain social media in the sense of, you know, you have said businesses should forget about followers and focus on what social media contributes to revenue.
816
00:53:35.133 --> 00:53:45.961
Unpack that a little bit for me because I think you and I are on the same page about this because I really want to know what your thoughts are on what social media actually should be doing for a business.
817
00:53:45.981 --> 00:53:46.241
Yeah.
818
00:53:46.470 --> 00:53:50.932
Yeah, I'll use an example in an area, influencer marketing.
819
00:53:51.012 --> 00:53:55.374
So we do not do infer... We've dipped our toes in it in the past.
820
00:53:55.434 --> 00:54:01.897
And I think again, the firms that do influencer marketing well, it is extremely powerful, right?
821
00:54:02.238 --> 00:54:09.161
If you can find the right influencer that aligns with the audience and the network, and you have a group that knows how to connect the brand,
822
00:54:09.601 --> 00:54:10.382
I don't know how they do it.
823
00:54:10.562 --> 00:54:11.923
I can't do it.
824
00:54:12.023 --> 00:54:12.624
I don't know how.
825
00:54:12.704 --> 00:54:20.892
But the issue we always had with the influencers as well and the campaigns that we did was the numbers.
826
00:54:21.172 --> 00:54:29.380
It was we would have situations where we do a campaign with someone with 25,000 followers and then you do one with someone that 150,000 followers.
827
00:54:29.740 --> 00:54:32.863
But the 25,000 followers, it was just more aligned.
828
00:54:33.203 --> 00:54:34.324
They had a better audience.
829
00:54:34.404 --> 00:54:36.045
They had a more engaged audience.
830
00:54:36.405 --> 00:54:47.353
Their audience just trusted them more than maybe the influencer that had more followers for a different reason or maybe the wrong reason, or they just didn't know who their followers actually were.
831
00:54:47.874 --> 00:54:50.776
And what we constantly saw was how we're pricing.
832
00:54:50.876 --> 00:54:52.237
How is pricing being done?
833
00:54:52.637 --> 00:54:54.679
How many followers do you have?
834
00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:57.481
I'm like, well, this is so backwards.
835
00:54:57.942 --> 00:55:03.868
And so we'd run those campaigns and then the fall, you know, you'd get the data and it'd be like X amount of people saw it.
836
00:55:03.888 --> 00:55:10.954
And it's like, well, yeah, more people actually probably did see the post for the influencer that had more followers.
837
00:55:11.015 --> 00:55:12.636
But it wasn't better.
838
00:55:12.716 --> 00:55:16.059
But you were paying a premium because that's, again, what it was being measured on.
839
00:55:16.820 --> 00:55:20.661
And so we'd constantly go back and be like, hey, what about you post?
840
00:55:20.781 --> 00:55:26.162
And based on what generates how many clicks, even to the click level, let's say, right?
841
00:55:26.442 --> 00:55:28.722
Because you're not even getting clicks most of the time.
842
00:55:28.762 --> 00:55:32.243
It's just that people see the story or they see the post.
843
00:55:32.263 --> 00:55:33.003
They never click.
844
00:55:33.043 --> 00:55:37.824
They never even get to the funnel for the opportunity to purchase or find out more information.
845
00:55:37.964 --> 00:55:40.964
So we just constantly we get pushback, right?
846
00:55:40.984 --> 00:55:43.305
And as negotiate this, negotiate that.
847
00:55:43.825 --> 00:55:55.215
the reports we would get would just be screenshots because I mean, the platforms themselves on, you know, they're not really built to report in those ways that you would need the way like the ad managers are.
848
00:55:56.556 --> 00:56:00.039
So, so yeah, I think like, again, it's social media.
849
00:56:00.439 --> 00:56:01.980
What should you do as a small business owner?
850
00:56:02.360 --> 00:56:06.603
Like put a good link in your profile and track that link on a monthly basis.
851
00:56:06.643 --> 00:56:12.847
Did we get any clicks from our social media to our website, from the one link that we know we have?
852
00:56:12.867 --> 00:56:15.428
And every post you do, use that as your link.
853
00:56:15.828 --> 00:56:21.752
Don't post five links, 10 links, 20 links, because then it just gets impossible to track.
854
00:56:21.912 --> 00:56:24.795
Or if followers are your goal, great.
855
00:56:25.275 --> 00:56:26.276
Set that as your goal.
856
00:56:26.637 --> 00:56:28.318
And then, but be careful.
857
00:56:28.338 --> 00:56:30.540
It's like, well, what are we getting out of it?
858
00:56:30.660 --> 00:56:34.404
Or if you are generating followers, what's the next step?
859
00:56:34.624 --> 00:56:34.965
All right.
860
00:56:35.325 --> 00:56:36.966
Now you have them as followers.
861
00:56:37.327 --> 00:56:38.488
Are you trying to get them to...
862
00:56:38.888 --> 00:56:39.968
download something?
863
00:56:40.049 --> 00:56:42.149
Do you want to get them to sign up for an email?
864
00:56:42.169 --> 00:56:46.651
A lot of personnel, they'll get them to their email lists, right?
865
00:56:47.031 --> 00:56:54.814
And then they send them offers or they send them other stuff that makes it easier to buy and purchase or monetize that actual audience.
866
00:56:54.874 --> 00:56:59.235
So yeah, similarly there, again, concept remains the same.
867
00:56:59.295 --> 00:57:00.316
Social media, great.
868
00:57:00.816 --> 00:57:01.677
What are we measuring?
869
00:57:01.717 --> 00:57:02.537
Does it make sense?
870
00:57:02.577 --> 00:57:05.079
Does it align with the client's goals, their pain points?
871
00:57:06.419 --> 00:57:07.660
And sometimes that has to change.
872
00:57:08.020 --> 00:57:10.522
We're not always measuring the same things.
873
00:57:10.582 --> 00:57:14.984
Sometimes, yeah, it's the same, but it is a case-by-case basis as well.
874
00:57:15.605 --> 00:57:15.825
Yeah.
875
00:57:15.885 --> 00:57:22.509
It's the goldmine also in switching channels to what I always say about email marketing when clients just...
876
00:57:23.114 --> 00:57:28.380
They completely like just not disregard, but don't even focus on it.
877
00:57:28.420 --> 00:57:30.803
But it's, you know, you're building your list to sell to your list.
878
00:57:30.883 --> 00:57:33.466
Email marketing is the cheapest.
879
00:57:33.526 --> 00:57:34.487
It's not flashy.
880
00:57:34.927 --> 00:57:36.429
It's not flashy, right?
881
00:57:36.489 --> 00:57:37.170
But it works.
882
00:57:37.610 --> 00:57:38.271
Direct mail.
883
00:57:38.351 --> 00:57:41.775
Direct mail still works well when done right.
884
00:57:42.075 --> 00:57:42.936
Why don't people do it?
885
00:57:42.956 --> 00:57:44.157
Because they just, it's old.
886
00:57:44.878 --> 00:57:45.599
It's not new.
887
00:57:45.959 --> 00:57:48.142
It's not flashy, right?
888
00:57:48.202 --> 00:57:49.183
But you're right.
889
00:57:49.203 --> 00:57:55.370
Like, yeah, we... And the more and more noise that get, you know, online, because it is, it's getting harder to track.
890
00:57:55.410 --> 00:57:56.651
You got more bots.
891
00:57:56.811 --> 00:58:00.175
You got more privacy blockers that don't even allow you to track.
892
00:58:00.575 --> 00:58:05.098
certain stuff or you're just getting limitations coming down from the government, wherever it may be.
893
00:58:05.559 --> 00:58:09.602
So it's like, just simplify it, get, get as many emails as you can to your point.
894
00:58:10.042 --> 00:58:13.444
And then it's like, okay, well, if you need to schedule calls, email them.
895
00:58:13.504 --> 00:58:16.547
And they've already, if they've given you their email, right.
896
00:58:16.627 --> 00:58:18.728
So you can even simplify it down to that.
897
00:58:18.928 --> 00:58:19.549
Go try and get that.
898
00:58:19.569 --> 00:58:20.810
There's some kind of interest there.
899
00:58:21.170 --> 00:58:21.870
Exactly.
900
00:58:22.291 --> 00:58:24.953
And I love that you brought up bots because, um,
901
00:58:26.213 --> 00:58:28.034
the bots are becoming heavier and heavier.
902
00:58:28.234 --> 00:58:38.878
And, you know, just as, as well with SEO, I mean, it's, it's guarding your forms, you know, with ensuring, I think what now, like 25 to 30% of traffic that hits your site is bots.
903
00:58:39.258 --> 00:58:41.559
And it's, and it's, I can see it.
904
00:58:41.819 --> 00:58:42.079
Yeah.
905
00:58:42.139 --> 00:58:45.360
I watch it like on our, we get good traffic activity.
906
00:58:45.420 --> 00:58:46.741
And I mean, I know it's not,
907
00:58:47.101 --> 00:58:48.122
It's not real traffic.
908
00:58:48.182 --> 00:58:49.223
I mean, you could see, right?
909
00:58:49.263 --> 00:58:58.393
The time on site, the different locations that it's coming in from in any one particular time, and then just search pattern, behavior, etc.
910
00:58:59.594 --> 00:59:04.279
And in certain ways, it is the boss just getting that information and then serve it through another channel.
911
00:59:04.319 --> 00:59:05.320
That's all it is as well.
912
00:59:05.700 --> 00:59:08.403
And that's our point about GEO.
913
00:59:08.463 --> 00:59:18.073
And okay, if it has to go and search for the question, make sure, write about, that's what you should be writing about on your site to optimize for LLMs right now.
914
00:59:18.573 --> 00:59:24.139
Because anybody that's coming out and telling you, oh, we know certainty, do...
915
00:59:25.623 --> 00:59:26.123
No way.
916
00:59:26.443 --> 00:59:27.284
No way.
917
00:59:27.344 --> 00:59:33.327
There's no way they can have certainty that, you know, they know exactly what's going to move the needle with these models.
918
00:59:33.767 --> 00:59:42.912
And especially with how quickly, you know, every week you got a new a new version rolling out like Claude's had to restrict versions based on how power.
919
00:59:43.032 --> 00:59:45.473
So those all have different.
920
00:59:45.973 --> 00:59:47.514
directives, right?
921
00:59:47.575 --> 00:59:52.279
Different scraping capabilities to where it's, you'd be chasing ghosts.
922
00:59:52.559 --> 00:59:54.460
So right now, what's our approach?
923
00:59:54.921 --> 00:59:56.382
Diversify, right?
924
00:59:56.502 --> 01:00:08.733
Start to think about what mediums LLMs are using, video, maybe, okay, instead of 20 blogs a month, do 15 blogs and a few videos if you can, or whatever the number might be, right?
925
01:00:08.753 --> 01:00:08.893
Yeah.
926
01:00:09.953 --> 01:00:11.534
And then monitor and see.
927
01:00:11.834 --> 01:00:24.839
And if it's not working over a period, you know, there's a lot of the testing element to marketing, which if you're uncomfortable failing, you're probably not going to be good at marketing.
928
01:00:24.859 --> 01:00:25.099
Yeah.
929
01:00:25.119 --> 01:00:25.419
No, totally.
930
01:00:25.559 --> 01:00:26.960
Or even being an entrepreneur.
931
01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:27.820
Anything.
932
01:00:27.900 --> 01:00:28.920
I think anything.
933
01:00:29.081 --> 01:00:29.901
Anything, right?
934
01:00:30.021 --> 01:00:30.441
Anything.
935
01:00:30.501 --> 01:00:31.121
Yeah.
936
01:00:31.221 --> 01:00:33.362
Same thing going back to coaching practice, right?
937
01:00:33.382 --> 01:00:34.303
A lot of it.
938
01:00:34.343 --> 01:00:36.063
Hey, try, fail, see what you can do.
939
01:00:36.083 --> 01:00:36.683
Exactly.
940
01:00:37.304 --> 01:00:37.664
Push yourself.
941
01:00:37.704 --> 01:00:37.984
Exactly.
942
01:00:38.922 --> 01:00:39.983
Push yourself indeed.
943
01:00:40.183 --> 01:00:42.004
Rob, you and I could go on for hours.
944
01:00:42.024 --> 01:00:43.885
Yeah, I know, right?
945
01:00:44.125 --> 01:00:50.709
But we have a signature closing where we ask one habit, one myth, and one word, and it's our fire round chat.
946
01:00:51.649 --> 01:00:54.611
So whatever comes your way, just answer.
947
01:00:55.371 --> 01:00:56.192
Okay, that sounds good.
948
01:00:56.872 --> 01:01:01.155
What is one habit that has contributed most to your success as an entrepreneur and leader?
949
01:01:01.926 --> 01:01:03.388
Hmm.
950
01:01:03.468 --> 01:01:07.094
We recently started this and I'm actually really proud of it.
951
01:01:07.174 --> 01:01:10.399
We have a biweekly meditation session.
952
01:01:11.172 --> 01:01:13.074
Wednesdays at 11.
953
01:01:13.755 --> 01:01:19.600
The entire org, it's virtual because we do have a, we have our team in house, but virtual as well or remote as well.
954
01:01:20.541 --> 01:01:23.624
And it's designed middle of the week, middle of the day.
955
01:01:23.644 --> 01:01:26.807
And I told our team, Hey, this is a priority.
956
01:01:26.867 --> 01:01:28.008
You can move calls.
957
01:01:28.048 --> 01:01:31.491
You can move client calls because we want to prioritize.
958
01:01:31.852 --> 01:01:35.215
You know, sometimes you need to take that break and agency work is, you know,
959
01:01:35.455 --> 01:01:37.237
a lot of weeks by the end of the week, right?
960
01:01:37.257 --> 01:01:39.298
You're like, oh my gosh, okay, we got there.
961
01:01:39.359 --> 01:01:45.604
Hopefully no one's calling me after 5 p.m. on Fridays or just clients.
962
01:01:45.624 --> 01:01:48.767
So yeah, that's been a big one, really just resetting for myself.
963
01:01:49.347 --> 01:01:55.693
So meditation and doing it consistently and just spending some time to slow down, decompress.
964
01:01:55.773 --> 01:01:58.495
And it's never too good and it's never too bad.
965
01:01:58.555 --> 01:01:59.917
That's what I always like to say, right?
966
01:01:59.937 --> 01:02:00.677
You'll be able to figure it out.
967
01:02:00.697 --> 01:02:00.898
Very true.
968
01:02:01.639 --> 01:02:02.140
Very true.
969
01:02:03.023 --> 01:02:06.776
What is one marketing myth you wish business owners would stop believing?
970
01:02:06.796 --> 01:02:07.037
Okay.
971
01:02:08.850 --> 01:02:25.415
One marketing myth that I wish they would stop believing is that just because someone actually shows interest means that they're going to buy or that the deal is over.
972
01:02:25.896 --> 01:02:28.936
And I think this goes back to our relational selling.
973
01:02:29.477 --> 01:02:36.079
Just because they submit a form doesn't mean they're just going to jump on the call, give you their money, sign up for their services.
974
01:02:37.399 --> 01:02:38.900
And that's where inbound, it's funny.
975
01:02:38.940 --> 01:02:42.123
It's like, hey, that just starts the chase, right?
976
01:02:42.843 --> 01:02:44.284
And so I think it goes towards anything.
977
01:02:44.304 --> 01:02:46.466
Like even if it's, oh, we generated traffic.
978
01:02:46.886 --> 01:02:48.267
Don't get too excited, right?
979
01:02:48.507 --> 01:02:53.571
Know really what the goal is and what you're trying to accomplish.
980
01:02:53.611 --> 01:03:00.416
So yeah, I think it's that one is you got to build through relationships, no matter what you're doing, no matter what you're...
981
01:03:00.436 --> 01:03:02.437
Even if it's a product, right?
982
01:03:02.497 --> 01:03:04.119
Why does someone buy a product online?
983
01:03:04.159 --> 01:03:04.279
Yeah.
984
01:03:04.799 --> 01:03:05.859
They read reviews.
985
01:03:05.979 --> 01:03:07.360
Other people said it was good.
986
01:03:07.380 --> 01:03:11.521
They see it and they trust it or they tried it and they trust it.
987
01:03:11.541 --> 01:03:14.102
So yeah, that would be the one.
988
01:03:14.142 --> 01:03:14.962
It's just the start.
989
01:03:15.883 --> 01:03:16.203
Yes.
990
01:03:16.323 --> 01:03:17.423
Relationships are key.
991
01:03:18.763 --> 01:03:24.085
What is one word that describes what every business owner needs in order to grow?
992
01:03:24.345 --> 01:03:25.886
And why did you choose that word?
993
01:03:27.206 --> 01:03:27.566
Grit.
994
01:03:28.306 --> 01:03:28.667
Grit.
995
01:03:28.887 --> 01:03:29.227
Yeah.
996
01:03:29.747 --> 01:03:29.967
Um,
997
01:03:31.188 --> 01:03:31.448
Yeah.
998
01:03:31.608 --> 01:03:50.676
I mean, right now, maybe not, but there's a lot of stuff going on in our organization, you know, a lot of good things, but there's also a few things, you know, that are just heavy lifts and it's like stuff that's happening that doesn't really have effect on day to day or doesn't have an effect on the actual team, unless I let it affect them.
999
01:03:50.776 --> 01:03:51.056
Right.
1000
01:03:51.237 --> 01:03:54.538
Or, and so that's where sometimes, you know, you just got to show that grit.
1001
01:03:55.018 --> 01:03:57.480
talked about tenacity, right?
1002
01:03:57.520 --> 01:04:01.122
Just to power through and keep showing up.
1003
01:04:01.563 --> 01:04:02.623
And it's tough.
1004
01:04:02.683 --> 01:04:03.064
It is.
1005
01:04:03.124 --> 01:04:03.684
It's tough.
1006
01:04:04.364 --> 01:04:06.026
And some days you don't want to.
1007
01:04:06.846 --> 01:04:21.316
But if you're ever in that, I find like action, activity, you know, get just go through your email, hammer it out, answer three, four, say, hey, for the next 10 minutes, I'm just going to answer emails no matter how hard they may be, no matter how many I get, you know, just simplify it.
1008
01:04:21.476 --> 01:04:22.016
Simplify it.
1009
01:04:22.056 --> 01:04:22.637
Keep it simple.
1010
01:04:22.657 --> 01:04:22.777
Yes.
1011
01:04:23.898 --> 01:04:27.842
Keep it simple and get to the hard stuff first.
1012
01:04:28.823 --> 01:04:29.864
Rob, it's been a pleasure.
1013
01:04:30.044 --> 01:04:31.766
I really appreciate your time on the show.
1014
01:04:32.026 --> 01:04:39.874
And we will link everything down below for folks to get in contact with you, learn more about what you guys do and to follow you on LinkedIn.
1015
01:04:40.174 --> 01:04:40.915
So thank you again.
1016
01:04:41.455 --> 01:04:41.716
Yeah.
1017
01:04:41.756 --> 01:04:42.657
Thanks so much, Sasha.
1018
01:04:42.697 --> 01:04:43.798
This is a lot of fun.
1019
01:04:55.212 --> 01:04:55.537
Bye.