Marc Andreessen: It’s Morning Again In America

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>> Peter Robinson: The New York Times
calls him, arguably,
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the chief ideologist of
the Silicon Valley elite.
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Marc Andreessen,
on Uncommon Knowledge, now.
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[MUSIC]
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>> Peter Robinson: Welcome to
Uncommon Knowledge, I'm Peter Robinson.
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After growing up in New Lisbon,
Wisconsin, which has a population,
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today, of 2,523, Marc Andreessen
majored in computer science at
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the University of Illinois and
then moved West.
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In 1993, Mr.
Andreessen co-founded Netscape,
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which made available the first widely
used browser almost instantly,
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making him a major figure
here in Silicon Valley.
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And he has remained
a major figure ever since.
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In 2009, Mr.
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Andreessen and his investing colleague
Ben Horowitz launched the venture capital
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firm Andreessen Horowitz, which today has
more than $40 billion under management.
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Here at Stanford, Mr.
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Andreessen participates in the Hoover
Institution's Emerging Technology Review.
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Since the election last November, Mr.
Andreessen has been spending only
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half his time here in Silicon Valley,
spending the other half at Mar a Lago.
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Where he has been advising Donald Trump
and his friends, Elon Musk and
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Vivek Ramaswamy.
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Mark Andreessen, thank you for joining me.
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>> Marc Andreessen: Thank you,
Peter, it's great to be here.
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>> Peter Robinson: Okay, Mark, let's
begin by taking a brief look at a video.
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>> Marc Andreessen: [LAUGH]
>> Ad: It's morning again in America.
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>> Marc Andreessen: There we go.
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>> Ad: And
under the leadership of President Reagan,
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our country is prouder and
stronger and better.
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Why would we ever want to return to where
we were less than four short years ago?
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[MUSIC]
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>> Marc Andreessen: Makes the hair
on the back of your neck go up.
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>> Peter Robinson: It's still powerful.
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>> Marc Andreessen: Sorry, was that '80?
Is that '80, [CROSSTALK].
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>> Peter Robinson: That's '84,
that's the reelection campaign.
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So, the 1970s, a decade of economic
stagnation, the erosion of our position in
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the Cold War, the national
humiliations of Vietnam and Watergate.
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Then Reagan is elected, and by 1984,
the economy has begun to expand.
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We'd begun to rebuild our military,
there had been a rebirth of patriotism.
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And that video,
although it may look sappy to us today,
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rang true enough to the American
people that they gave Reagan 49 out of
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50 states when they reelected him in 1984.
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Serious question, a national renewal,
can we do it again?
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>> Marc Andreessen: I mean,
I see no reason why we can't.
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We have to want to.
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I was a kid since I was 13,
when that came out, so
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a vague awareness of what was going on.
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But we certainly can, I mean, look,
we have the preconditions for all of it.
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We have the people, we have everything.
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We have the people, we have the resources,
we have the geographic security.
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I mean, we have all of these capabilities.
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I mean, it's actually amazing
if you look right now,
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we are the major Western
economy that's growing, right?
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So, the UK and Germany and Canada,
they've stopped growing and
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they're probably shrinking, right?
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And so, notwithstanding all of our
many issues, we've continued to grow.
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We continue to be the beacon of capitalism
and enterprise and entrepreneurship.
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The smartest people in the world
definitely, 100% still wanna come here.
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We're now leading the world in AI.
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And then in energy, I mean,
it's this running joke,
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it's like every time there's one of these
doom headlines of the US is gonna run out
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of some rare Earth mineral and
lithium or something.
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It's like, the joke is some farmer in
North Dakota stumbles over a new $2
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trillion deposit in his backyard.
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We have apparently unlimited
natural resources.
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We have overwhelmingly the dominant
military machine in the world.
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For all of our issues, we have all
the preconditions for a golden age.
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>> Peter Robinson: A golden age,
all right, we'll come back to that.
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In the meantime,
you have some explaining to do.
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The presidential candidates
Marc Andreessen has supported.
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This is all public,
I did a little research on you, Mark.
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I mean, you may have tried to tidy things
up, you being you, I doubt that you have,
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but this is still very much on the record.
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>> Marc Andreessen: Hold on,
I gotta hack Wikipedia.
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>> Peter Robinson: [LAUGH] Bill Clinton,
Al Gore, John Kerry,
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Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton,
and Donald Trump.
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>> Marc Andreessen: A brief
detour to Mitt Romney.
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>> Peter Robinson: Brief detour
to Mitt Romney, all right.
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>> Marc Andreessen: 2012 [LAUGH] But
yes, yeah,
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that trajectory exactly from actually,
I mean, I sort of entered business in '94,
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but I knew Bill Clinton and Al Gore
quite well and supported them in '96.
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And then as you said, Gore in 2000,
all the way up to Hillary in '16.
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>> Peter Robinson: Okay, so
from a very loyal Democrat
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to a MAGA Republican, how come?
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What happened?
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah, [LAUGH] so
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things changed.
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So, the way I describe it-
>> Peter Robinson: You changed or
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things changed?
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What in your thinking changed and, I mean,
there are plenty of people who say,
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I didn't leave the Democratic Party,
the Democratic Party left me.
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Ronald Reagan used to say that.
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So, how does the environment and thinking,
both of them, comment, would you please?
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>> Marc Andreessen: By the way,
it is amazing how many members of
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the key Trump team are former Democrats,
right?
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Donald Trump is a former Democrat,
Bobby Kennedy,
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you go right down the list, Tulsi Gabbard,
there's a lot of these people.
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So there's a broad-based phenomenon.
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But anyway, so we'll talk about that.
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So the way I describe it is, look, I came
up in the 90s, I grew up in the Midwest.
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I have sort of, very firm kind of
understanding memory of what it's like to
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kind of grow up in a, sort of the polar
opposite environment of California.
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>> Peter Robinson: Right.
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>> Marc Andreessen: But
I moved to California,
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I became a full blown Californian,
fully assimilated, adapted.
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But the way I would describe it is, it was
just sort of assumed that if you were in
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Silicon Valley, in high tech in the 90s,
it was just assumed, Clinton gorb heyday.
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It's just assumed that there was, what
I now call the Deal, with a capital D.
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And nobody ever said it out loud,
but it was just assumed.
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And the deal was,
you can be a high tech entrepreneur,
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you can build all this amazing technology,
you can build a successful company,
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you can create lots of jobs.
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The technology makes
the world a better place.
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It's great, you take the company public,
you make a lot of money.
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At some point, you take the money and
you donate it to philanthropy.
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And that's the total arc.
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And then when you die, in your obituary,
it's like, he was an entrepreneur
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and a philanthropist, and all of his-
>> Peter Robinson: The Silicon Valley
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circle of life.
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>> Marc Andreessen: The circle of life,
and it's just like, it's great.
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It was a great deal cuz it's like,
you get to do what you want,
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you get all the professional satisfaction
out of executing in your field,
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you get all the material satisfaction
out of financial success.
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And then you get all the psychic,
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moral satisfaction out of-
>> Peter Robinson: And
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the government leaves you alone.
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You have more than enough scope to do
what you need to do as an entrepreneur.
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>> Marc Andreessen: That,
and also, as you may recall,
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the Clinton-Gore administration was
extremely enthusiastic about high tech.
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And so, I have a thousand stories
from those days, but one is,
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I was actually,
one of my little claims to fame,
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I was the third wheel in
the first presidential webcast.
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So Bill Clinton and
I did the first presidential webcast,
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presidential Internet town hall,
I think, in 1996.
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And it was a big deal in
those days to do that.
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And he called me afterwards and
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he was just completely
thrilled by the whole thing.
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It was so fantastic.
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And of course, Al Gore, literally,
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he got a lot of flack later for-
>> Peter Robinson: Saying that he invented
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the Internet.
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>> Marc Andreessen: But this is the thing,
is he never actually, so
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here I'll defend Al Gore.
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He never said he invented the Internet,
he said he took the lead in the Senate in
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helping to create the Internet,
which is actually true.
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He was the creator,
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sponsor of the legislation in the 80s that
created what was known as the NSFNET,
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National Science Foundation Network,
which became the Internet.
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That is the Internet backbone.
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And then also
the National Supercomputer Centers.
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And I bring it up cuz that's how I was
able to do the work that I did, which is,
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by the time I showed up at Illinois, we
have the National Supercomputer Center and
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the NSFNET backbone that he had funded.
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>> Peter Robinson: And it's very
important to your work that those things
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already existed.
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>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah, they had to.
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Those were the preconditions for
everything that followed.
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And so, Al Gore, I think, deserves
tremendous credit for what he did.
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But the point is,
he was super enthusiastic about it and
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has always been a giant
supporter of technology.
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And so, these people just thought that
it was just absolutely fantastic.
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And then, Democrats,
all the way through the 2000s,
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as the Democratic Party
started to clearly move left,
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Obama was still generally a big
supporter of tech and American business.
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He liked what we were doing.
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And then, you may remember in 2012, I
don't know if you remember in 2012, 2012,
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at the time Obama's reelection,
the headlines were all,
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this was the first Internet election for
a social media election.
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And the headlines literally were
social media saves democracy.
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Because social media is what caused
Obama to be able to raise so
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much money online and to be able to beat
the evil fascist Nazi, Mitt Romney, right?
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And so, literally, the press was
glowing in support of social media.
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Facebook was great for
democracy, the whole thing.
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By the way, the Arab Spring
also happened at the same time.
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And again, universal,
positive press coverage.
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So up until 2012, [CROSSTALK].
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>> Peter Robinson: To your point,
you remind me of something.
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I knew somebody who was a very
close friend of Mitt Romney and
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who was an investor out
here in Silicon Valley.
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And Romney said, the Obama operation
is killing us on tech, and
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in particular, particular campaign tech.
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Apparently, the Obama people
had it all sorted out so
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that they could give volunteers a piece
of software on their smartphones.
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They could go door to door and
ask five questions.
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And they would know whether that person
was already supporting Obama, so
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you don't spend more money on him.
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Or committed to Romney, so
you don't spend money on or
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a maybe in which you want resources.
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And the Romney people
had nothing like that.
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And my buddy's job was to come
out here to Silicon Valley and
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recruit engineers to build something for
Romney.
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And engineers wouldn't work for
the Republican.
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>> Marc Andreessen: Right.
>> Peter Robinson: It was so uncool.
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>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah, 100%.
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>> Peter Robinson: Okay.
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes, no question, so-
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>> Peter Robinson: You're not remotely
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surprised by that story.
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>> Marc Andreessen: Well, this goes back,
so the long arc here is Silicon Valley.
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There was a bit Republican contingent
in Silicon Valley in the Chip Era, 50s,
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60s, 70s.
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So by the time I got here, there were
these guys who were mostly retired at that
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point, who were kind of the-
>> Peter Robinson: David Packard worked
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for Richard Nixon as deputy
Defense Secretary, as I recall.
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>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah, so these guys
were already in their 70s and 80s.
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I met some of them, but
I didn't know a lot of them.
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This is sort of the transition of
Silicon Valley from chips to software,
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was kind of that handoff.
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By the time I got here, basically,
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everybody below the age of
50 was a Democrat, right?
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Which sort of foreshadowed the future of
the state as the state was going through
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its transitions.
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And so, yeah, and basically,
everybody I knew bought into the deal.
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Essentially, everybody I knew, did this.
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And by the way, it's a tremendously heady
thing to buy into, to become part of,
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cuz it's amazing.
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You're this incredibly
lionized tech founder.
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You're getting invited to the White House.
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Everybody loves you, by the way,
the press loves you.
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It's all great, the philanthropy,
they love you for that.
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The whole thing is just like this audit.
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And you get to Davos and Aspen and-
>> Peter Robinson: You get to get rich and
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have your vanity flatter.
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>> Marc Andreessen: It's amazing.
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>> Peter Robinson: Okay.
>> Marc Andreessen: And by the way,
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and the government is supporting you,
right?
224
00:10:26,516 --> 00:10:29,117
And if you have a problem and
there's a problem in a foreign country and
225
00:10:29,117 --> 00:10:32,071
they're coming at you on something, or
there's some crazy tax or something,
226
00:10:32,071 --> 00:10:33,945
the US Government will
actually go to bat for you.
227
00:10:33,945 --> 00:10:36,234
Or if there's some weird
trade war thing or whatever,
228
00:10:36,234 --> 00:10:39,306
your stuff gets seized at some port,
the State Department will step in.
229
00:10:39,306 --> 00:10:42,127
And so the government's like,
on the side of American business.
230
00:10:42,127 --> 00:10:46,955
And in retrospect, this was the trade
that the Democrats made in the 90s,
231
00:10:46,955 --> 00:10:49,229
right, to become pro-business.
232
00:10:49,229 --> 00:10:52,433
This is sort of a reflection of how
Clinton brought the Democratic Party back
233
00:10:52,433 --> 00:10:56,034
from the craziness of the 60s and 70s, was
to get them in a point where they were not
234
00:10:56,034 --> 00:10:58,358
literally fighting capitalism,
right, every day.
235
00:10:58,358 --> 00:11:00,886
And so it worked great.
236
00:11:00,886 --> 00:11:03,724
The meshing was great, and the meshing,
basically, worked right up until 2012.
237
00:11:03,724 --> 00:11:06,852
And then, basically,
it was after Obama's reelection.
238
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Really, what I picked up,
my experience was, starting in 2013,
239
00:11:09,987 --> 00:11:12,550
is when things really started to unravel.
240
00:11:12,550 --> 00:11:17,230
>> Peter Robinson: Okay, and
so how do you pick it up?
241
00:11:17,230 --> 00:11:21,142
Well, as I said, you've been a major
figure in Silicon Valley, famous man,
242
00:11:21,142 --> 00:11:22,762
wealthy man, since the 90s.
243
00:11:22,762 --> 00:11:24,214
How do you pick it up in 2013?
244
00:11:24,214 --> 00:11:27,452
You're investing and you discover your
entrepreneurs are starting to run into
245
00:11:27,452 --> 00:11:29,298
difficulties they didn't used to run into.
246
00:11:29,298 --> 00:11:32,888
There's something more vague than that,
there's a vibe.
247
00:11:32,888 --> 00:11:34,166
Describe what it felt like?
248
00:11:34,166 --> 00:11:36,006
What are you picking up in 2013?
249
00:11:36,006 --> 00:11:36,990
>> Marc Andreessen: So, in retrospect,
250
00:11:36,990 --> 00:11:39,170
I was on the front end of
picking up the change.
251
00:11:39,170 --> 00:11:40,586
I didn't understand what was happening,
but
252
00:11:40,586 --> 00:11:42,050
I was on the front end of
picking up the change.
253
00:11:42,050 --> 00:11:45,045
I felt it, and the reason I felt it is cuz
I was so involved in the consumer Internet
254
00:11:45,045 --> 00:11:47,788
companies of that era, and in particular,
the social media companies.
255
00:11:47,788 --> 00:11:49,298
And so I was on the Facebook board.
256
00:11:49,298 --> 00:11:52,354
I was an angel investor in Twitter,
angel investor in LinkedIn.
257
00:11:52,354 --> 00:11:54,999
I was involved in basically,
all of these companies,
258
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all these new social media companies.
259
00:11:56,906 --> 00:11:57,902
And I was super close.
260
00:11:57,902 --> 00:12:01,322
I knew YouTube inside out and so I sort
of knew how all these things operated.
261
00:12:01,322 --> 00:12:04,160
I knew all the people and I was in
the room for a lot of the conversations.
262
00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:09,129
Basically, it was in 2013, is really
when the employees started to activate.
263
00:12:09,129 --> 00:12:11,801
And so you started to get, basically,
this employee activist movement.
264
00:12:11,801 --> 00:12:12,626
And that was a big thing.
265
00:12:12,626 --> 00:12:15,851
And of course, in retrospect,
I know what happened, which is,
266
00:12:15,851 --> 00:12:18,387
you had a generation of
radicalized college kids.
267
00:12:18,387 --> 00:12:23,174
So basically, if you back up further,
it was basically some combination of 9/11,
268
00:12:23,174 --> 00:12:27,315
the Patriot Act and then the Iraq War and
then the global financial crisis and
269
00:12:27,315 --> 00:12:28,757
then Occupy Wall Street.
270
00:12:28,757 --> 00:12:31,471
Whatever happened during that
sort of ten year period,
271
00:12:31,471 --> 00:12:34,706
radicalized the college kids
before they moved into industry.
272
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But then they showed up and
273
00:12:35,790 --> 00:12:39,349
they were starting to populate these
companies in 2012, 2013, 2014.
274
00:12:39,349 --> 00:12:43,402
And then they then activated a lot of
their older contemporaries in those
275
00:12:43,402 --> 00:12:47,402
companies, the older cohort members
who wanted to be cool and with it.
276
00:12:47,402 --> 00:12:49,011
And we know this-
>> Peter Robinson: It started with
277
00:12:49,011 --> 00:12:49,766
the kids then?
278
00:12:49,766 --> 00:12:50,758
>> Marc Andreessen: It
started with the kids.
279
00:12:50,758 --> 00:12:54,122
And the very specific thing that happened
with the social media companies is that,
280
00:12:54,122 --> 00:12:57,361
that was the beginning of the whole thing
with hate speech and misinformation.
281
00:12:57,361 --> 00:13:00,490
So that was the whole thing, cuz up
until then, the Internet is a wild west.
282
00:13:00,490 --> 00:13:01,665
We love it cuz because it's a wild west.
283
00:13:01,665 --> 00:13:02,685
It makes all these things possible.
284
00:13:02,685 --> 00:13:04,137
It's fantastic, it's great, it's working.
285
00:13:04,137 --> 00:13:06,959
It's pro-democracy, it's pro-free speech.
286
00:13:06,959 --> 00:13:09,972
The Obama State Department had this
giant push to expand free speech, right,
287
00:13:09,972 --> 00:13:11,670
all through the rest of the world, right?
288
00:13:11,670 --> 00:13:14,064
At the same time that they discovered it
would be a really good idea to censor
289
00:13:14,064 --> 00:13:15,701
American speech right,
on social media, right?
290
00:13:15,701 --> 00:13:19,088
So there was this amazing,
do you remember net neutrality?
291
00:13:19,088 --> 00:13:19,696
>> Peter Robinson: Yes.
292
00:13:19,696 --> 00:13:22,564
>> Marc Andreessen: This big push from
the left to make sure that big companies
293
00:13:22,564 --> 00:13:24,735
couldn't censor Internet speech [LAUGH].
294
00:13:24,735 --> 00:13:27,851
So there were years and years and years of
anybody who was on the side of censoring
295
00:13:27,851 --> 00:13:30,702
Internet speech, was against net
neutrality and was the Antichrist.
296
00:13:30,702 --> 00:13:31,977
And then, literally, that flipped and
297
00:13:31,977 --> 00:13:34,392
became anybody who wasn't pro-Internet
censorship was the Antichrist.
298
00:13:34,392 --> 00:13:36,736
And net neutrality vanished as an issue.
299
00:13:36,736 --> 00:13:40,967
The two issues that have vanished
completely from the political
300
00:13:40,967 --> 00:13:44,189
stage are net neutrality and
money in politics.
301
00:13:44,189 --> 00:13:48,098
They're just gone as
mainstream left wing issues.
302
00:13:48,098 --> 00:13:51,608
It's money in politics is after Hillary
outspent Donald Trump three to one and
303
00:13:51,608 --> 00:13:54,230
lost, that was it for
the anti-money in politics issue.
304
00:13:54,230 --> 00:13:58,190
So there's this term in Hollywood, retcon,
where you do retroactive continuity,
305
00:13:58,190 --> 00:14:01,866
you go back and you sort of change a story
so that it's all consistent later.
306
00:14:01,866 --> 00:14:04,644
And so there was the free speech retcon.
307
00:14:04,644 --> 00:14:06,388
There was the net neutrality retcon.
308
00:14:06,388 --> 00:14:07,844
There was the money in politics retcon.
309
00:14:07,844 --> 00:14:11,206
Anyway, so this all kicked off in 2013.
310
00:14:11,206 --> 00:14:13,464
I was in the room at some
of these companies for
311
00:14:13,464 --> 00:14:17,276
the original discussions on define
hate speech, define misinformation.
312
00:14:17,276 --> 00:14:20,501
Of course, assurances were, everybody
was completely confident that these were
313
00:14:20,501 --> 00:14:22,452
very straightforward,
easy things to define.
314
00:14:22,452 --> 00:14:25,846
And of course, they wouldn't begin a long
slide towards political censorship,
315
00:14:25,846 --> 00:14:27,332
which is precisely what happened.
316
00:14:27,332 --> 00:14:31,004
But this is really important that,
that slide started in 2013.
317
00:14:31,004 --> 00:14:34,056
That started before Trump, that started
way before the primary process,
318
00:14:34,056 --> 00:14:36,092
that started way before
the general election.
319
00:14:36,092 --> 00:14:37,258
It really kicked off then.
320
00:14:37,258 --> 00:14:38,339
>> Peter Robinson: Got it, got it.
321
00:14:38,339 --> 00:14:42,389
So what did you make of
Trump first time around?
322
00:14:42,389 --> 00:14:44,646
>> Marc Andreessen: So this is the thing,
is, I'm reading the New York Times,
323
00:14:44,646 --> 00:14:45,514
I'm watching MSNBC.
324
00:14:45,514 --> 00:14:47,750
I'm like anybody else,
in my class and station.
325
00:14:47,750 --> 00:14:50,332
And I'm just absolutely horrified and
like, my God.
326
00:14:50,332 --> 00:14:51,476
>> Peter Robinson: That man is an outrage.
327
00:14:51,476 --> 00:14:53,836
>> Marc Andreessen: What about the norms,
right, the whole thing.
328
00:14:53,836 --> 00:14:57,768
And, like I said,
I supported Hillary in 2016.
329
00:14:57,768 --> 00:14:59,999
And frankly, my thought at that point was,
330
00:14:59,999 --> 00:15:02,845
traditional awful is better
than radical awful [LAUGH].
331
00:15:02,845 --> 00:15:06,090
So when push comes to shove and
Hillary, look like Bill Clinton,
332
00:15:06,090 --> 00:15:10,414
I thought had been great, like I said, and
for tech, he'd been super enthusiastic.
333
00:15:10,414 --> 00:15:13,676
And so I'm like,
how presumably his wife is.
334
00:15:13,676 --> 00:15:18,040
And then, yeah, and then,
basically, relatively quick.
335
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:19,790
Well, not relatively quick,
it took a few years.
336
00:15:19,790 --> 00:15:23,789
But certainly by 2018, 2019,
I was starting to really wonder what was
337
00:15:23,789 --> 00:15:27,898
going on cuz things started to get really
weird, as you know, all through tech.
338
00:15:27,898 --> 00:15:31,237
And then, basically, after 2020,
in the last four years,
339
00:15:31,237 --> 00:15:32,825
have been completely insane.
340
00:15:32,825 --> 00:15:36,855
And if I had not already figured out which
way was up by 2018, 2019, certainly,
341
00:15:36,855 --> 00:15:38,178
the last four years did it.
342
00:15:38,178 --> 00:15:39,026
>> Peter Robinson: You had enough?
343
00:15:39,026 --> 00:15:39,530
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah.
344
00:15:39,530 --> 00:15:40,903
>> Peter Robinson: Okay?
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah.
345
00:15:40,903 --> 00:15:43,045
>> Peter Robinson: Let's
jump to the present DOGE,
346
00:15:43,045 --> 00:15:45,946
the Department of Government Efficiency.
347
00:15:45,946 --> 00:15:50,004
Your buddies, Elon Musk and
Vivek Ramaswamy are heading it.
348
00:15:50,004 --> 00:15:54,741
And you yourself are participating, as
you've called yourself, an unpaid intern.
349
00:15:54,741 --> 00:15:55,399
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes, correct, yes.
350
00:15:55,399 --> 00:15:56,507
[LAUGH]
>> Peter Robinson: You may go get me
351
00:15:56,507 --> 00:15:58,063
a glass of water at some point.
352
00:15:58,063 --> 00:16:01,537
Again, let's start with
a very brief video.
353
00:16:01,537 --> 00:16:05,952
And this is a video that
Elon Musk retweeted.
354
00:16:05,952 --> 00:16:09,262
To my surprise, it turns out to be
a couple of minutes of an old interview I
355
00:16:09,262 --> 00:16:10,529
did with Milton Friedman.
356
00:16:10,529 --> 00:16:11,671
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes.
>> Peter Robinson: So here we go.
357
00:16:11,671 --> 00:16:12,998
14 is a lot for television.
358
00:16:12,998 --> 00:16:15,295
So I wanna just go right
down the list quickly and
359
00:16:15,295 --> 00:16:17,372
have you give me a thumbs up or
thumbs down.
360
00:16:17,372 --> 00:16:21,266
[CROSSTALK] Cabinet agencies,
Department of Agriculture,
361
00:16:21,266 --> 00:16:22,379
>> Milton Friedman: Abolished, gone.
362
00:16:22,379 --> 00:16:24,318
>> Peter Robinson: Department of Commerce.
363
00:16:24,318 --> 00:16:25,776
>> Milton Friedman: Abolished, gone.
364
00:16:25,776 --> 00:16:27,203
>> Peter Robinson: Department of Defense.
365
00:16:27,203 --> 00:16:28,859
>> Milton Friedman: Keep.
>> Peter Robinson: Keep it, from 14
366
00:16:28,859 --> 00:16:32,374
departments down to four and a half-
>> Milton Friedman: Basic fundamental
367
00:16:32,374 --> 00:16:33,152
functions.
368
00:16:33,152 --> 00:16:36,603
What are its fundamental functions?
369
00:16:36,603 --> 00:16:39,064
Preserve the peace,
defend the country, right?
370
00:16:39,064 --> 00:16:43,653
Provide a mechanism whereby individuals
can adjudicate their disputes.
371
00:16:43,653 --> 00:16:46,395
That's the Justice Department.
372
00:16:46,395 --> 00:16:51,125
Protect individuals from being
coerced by other individuals,
373
00:16:51,125 --> 00:16:53,412
the police function, right?
374
00:16:53,412 --> 00:16:57,482
And now,
this is both the central government and
375
00:16:57,482 --> 00:17:00,367
the state and local governments.
376
00:17:00,367 --> 00:17:03,626
The police function is primarily local and
central, right?
377
00:17:03,626 --> 00:17:06,916
And those are the fundamental functions
of government, in my opinion.
378
00:17:06,916 --> 00:17:11,077
>> Peter Robinson: Okay, so, as I said,
there I sat with Milton Friedman in
379
00:17:11,077 --> 00:17:16,024
the 1990s and asked him to go
through the cabinet departments,
380
00:17:16,024 --> 00:17:19,962
and he whittled them down
from 14 to four and a half.
381
00:17:19,962 --> 00:17:24,706
And Elon Musk retweeted that under
the heading, the DOGE Agenda.
382
00:17:24,706 --> 00:17:28,128
Okay, now I'd like to ask
about the DOGE Agenda, but
383
00:17:28,128 --> 00:17:30,421
let me let you in on a little secret.
384
00:17:30,421 --> 00:17:35,951
When Ronald Reagan ran in 1979, he called
for the abolition of the Department
385
00:17:35,951 --> 00:17:40,859
of Education, which, by the way,
only got up and running in 1979.
386
00:17:40,859 --> 00:17:45,852
So it's not as if this thing was
some storied inheritance from
387
00:17:45,852 --> 00:17:49,028
the gloried past in American history.
388
00:17:49,028 --> 00:17:51,819
It was a brand new federal bureaucracy.
389
00:17:51,819 --> 00:17:54,839
And when Ronald Reagan took office,
Ed Meese,
390
00:17:54,839 --> 00:17:59,066
who is the person who told me this story,
went up to Capitol Hill and
391
00:17:59,066 --> 00:18:04,296
encountered one Republican senator after
another who said, you can't do that.
392
00:18:04,296 --> 00:18:07,992
In just a year, they had already
figured out how to use that cabinet
393
00:18:07,992 --> 00:18:10,975
department to give benefits
to their constituents.
394
00:18:10,975 --> 00:18:14,584
And now they wanted to protect it,
not eliminate it.
395
00:18:14,584 --> 00:18:22,144
All of which is to say, what do you boys
think you can actually get done at DOGE?
396
00:18:22,144 --> 00:18:28,651
High spirits, huge intelligence is
about to smack into practical politics.
397
00:18:28,651 --> 00:18:31,102
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah, and
as you may know, you probably also know,
398
00:18:31,102 --> 00:18:34,530
there was a Clinton-Gore initiative
called Reinventing Government.
399
00:18:34,530 --> 00:18:35,147
Do you remember this?
400
00:18:35,147 --> 00:18:37,340
>> Peter Robinson: Dimly.
401
00:18:37,340 --> 00:18:39,304
>> Marc Andreessen: There was
a famous moment where Al Gore went on
402
00:18:39,304 --> 00:18:42,003
David Letterman when he was
the top late night talk show host.
403
00:18:42,003 --> 00:18:44,098
And he went on with one of these famous,
404
00:18:44,098 --> 00:18:47,411
he went on with the $600
shatterproof Pentagon ashtray.
405
00:18:47,411 --> 00:18:50,934
>> Al Gore: Which they call ash
receivers tobacco desk type.
406
00:18:50,934 --> 00:18:52,073
>> David Letterman: But
this is a quality item.
407
00:18:52,073 --> 00:18:53,619
>> [LAUGH]
>> Al Gore: Yeah.
408
00:18:53,619 --> 00:18:55,669
>> Marc Andreessen: Right,
the $3 ashtray that costs 600 bucks and
409
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:58,053
it's shatterproof, so
you can operate in military zones.
410
00:18:58,053 --> 00:19:00,242
And of course, he went on there with
his safety glasses and hammer and
411
00:19:00,242 --> 00:19:02,031
proceeded it to shatter on
Letterman's desk, right?
412
00:19:02,031 --> 00:19:05,192
And say, the game is up and
we're gonna go cuddle this.
413
00:19:05,192 --> 00:19:06,012
And then of course.
414
00:19:06,012 --> 00:19:06,796
>> Peter Robinson: Didn't happen.
415
00:19:06,796 --> 00:19:10,116
>> Marc Andreessen: Well, to give him
a little credit, the budget did balance.
416
00:19:10,116 --> 00:19:12,411
They did get to a balanced budget at some,
they got in the surplus for
417
00:19:12,411 --> 00:19:13,026
a brief period.
418
00:19:13,026 --> 00:19:15,600
So maybe some stuff happened,
Reagan did some stuff.
419
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,232
Although, correct me if I'm wrong,
420
00:19:17,232 --> 00:19:19,785
I think the government was
bigger when Reagan left office.
421
00:19:19,785 --> 00:19:21,736
>> Peter Robinson: Well,
I can tell you a little bit about that.
422
00:19:21,736 --> 00:19:22,912
So Reagan, as you know,
423
00:19:22,912 --> 00:19:26,561
this is one of the things that we're
gonna come to here in talking about DOGE.
424
00:19:26,561 --> 00:19:28,416
There is the discretionary budget.
425
00:19:28,416 --> 00:19:31,932
That is the bit that the Congress
gets to vote on every single year.
426
00:19:31,932 --> 00:19:33,425
The Pentagon is a big part of that.
427
00:19:33,425 --> 00:19:34,521
Reagan was able to hold.
428
00:19:34,521 --> 00:19:35,385
And these days,
429
00:19:35,385 --> 00:19:39,984
the discretionary budget is a little under
one-third of the entire federal budget.
430
00:19:39,984 --> 00:19:44,760
So overwhelmingly, it's welfare programs,
Medicare, Social Security is the big one.
431
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:49,735
Reagan was able to hold the discretionary
budget to about 1% growth
432
00:19:49,735 --> 00:19:53,693
over eight years,
which in real terms was a minor cut.
433
00:19:53,693 --> 00:19:56,974
But that was huffing and
puffing and constant labor and
434
00:19:56,974 --> 00:20:01,120
what he could never get control of
was the non discretionary budget.
435
00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:04,792
Which of course, had been legislated
in years past and grew according to,
436
00:20:04,792 --> 00:20:07,298
neither he nor
Congress had any control over that,
437
00:20:07,298 --> 00:20:09,796
which is going to be a problem for
you boys, okay?
438
00:20:09,796 --> 00:20:12,646
So there's that.
439
00:20:12,646 --> 00:20:17,297
There was also, I can remember this
because I wrote speeches for it, Neil.
440
00:20:17,297 --> 00:20:21,042
There was also a government
commission on waste, fraud and abuse.
441
00:20:21,042 --> 00:20:24,256
Peter Grace, J Peter Grace,
a very distinguished, very lovely man,
442
00:20:24,256 --> 00:20:27,630
very distinguished New York banker of
a kind that this generation is gone,
443
00:20:27,630 --> 00:20:30,586
just like David Packard,
belonging to an earlier era.
444
00:20:30,586 --> 00:20:33,689
And of course, he hired people and they
went around and discovered all kinds of
445
00:20:33,689 --> 00:20:36,480
absurdities that the federal
government was paying for themselves.
446
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:41,412
There was some sort of national
program for beekeepers or something,
447
00:20:41,412 --> 00:20:44,264
but it only was waste, fraud and abuse.
448
00:20:44,264 --> 00:20:46,256
If you looked at it the way Mr.
449
00:20:46,256 --> 00:20:50,423
Grace looked at it,
which was as a businessman and a citizen.
450
00:20:50,423 --> 00:20:54,846
If you looked at it the way a politician
running for reelection looked at it,
451
00:20:54,846 --> 00:20:59,082
it wasn't waste fraud or abuse,
it was very effective in buying votes.
452
00:20:59,082 --> 00:21:02,092
And so
that stuff went almost nowhere as well.
453
00:21:02,092 --> 00:21:06,138
So what you boys are up to now has
been attempted, although I must say,
454
00:21:06,138 --> 00:21:08,344
not with quite this level of bravado.
455
00:21:08,344 --> 00:21:09,352
>> Marc Andreessen: And not with Elon.
456
00:21:09,352 --> 00:21:10,680
>> Peter Robinson: And not with Elon.
457
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,848
>> Marc Andreessen: So, I start by saying
I'm not a spokesperson for the DOGE.
458
00:21:13,848 --> 00:21:14,655
So I'm not gonna.
459
00:21:14,655 --> 00:21:15,435
>> [CROSSTALK]
>> Marc Andreessen: I just
460
00:21:15,435 --> 00:21:16,262
want to give you.
461
00:21:16,262 --> 00:21:17,037
>> [CROSSTALK]
>> Marc Andreessen: I'm will
462
00:21:17,037 --> 00:21:17,688
give my views.
463
00:21:17,688 --> 00:21:20,611
>> Peter Robinson: Elon Musk and Vivek
are both very capable of speaking for
464
00:21:20,611 --> 00:21:21,365
themselves.
465
00:21:21,365 --> 00:21:22,328
>> Marc Andreessen: Let them speak for
DOGE.
466
00:21:22,328 --> 00:21:25,792
So look, number one is, yeah, people
have taken swings at this in the past.
467
00:21:25,792 --> 00:21:27,864
That's certainly true, the factors
you described are certainly true.
468
00:21:27,864 --> 00:21:29,448
Having said that,
there are some differences.
469
00:21:29,448 --> 00:21:32,528
And so one is a whole bunch
of things to talk about.
470
00:21:32,528 --> 00:21:34,576
But one is there's sort of three.
471
00:21:34,576 --> 00:21:39,567
The way to think about it is there's like
three thread here, there's headcount,
472
00:21:39,567 --> 00:21:44,205
there's spend, and those are related,
but different separate threads and
473
00:21:44,205 --> 00:21:46,007
then there's regulations.
474
00:21:46,007 --> 00:21:49,865
And then there's an intertwining of
the three of them that has become
475
00:21:49,865 --> 00:21:54,588
salient as a result of the recent Supreme
Court decisions on executive authority and
476
00:21:54,588 --> 00:21:56,538
the so called Chevron deference.
477
00:21:56,538 --> 00:22:00,902
So there's been a set of Supreme Court
decisions recently in which the power
478
00:22:00,902 --> 00:22:05,335
of the executive branch to basically
have agencies that promulgate their own
479
00:22:05,335 --> 00:22:06,649
regulatory regimes.
480
00:22:06,649 --> 00:22:10,389
And then staff and spend against those
regulatory regimes without basically being
481
00:22:10,389 --> 00:22:12,526
expressly authorized by
Congress to do that.
482
00:22:12,526 --> 00:22:15,991
Like the Supreme Court basically
just made that decision that now is
483
00:22:15,991 --> 00:22:18,681
something that can be used
to turn these things off.
484
00:22:18,681 --> 00:22:20,724
An argument-
>> Peter Robinson: In all the press,
485
00:22:20,724 --> 00:22:27,158
I haven't yet noticed that DOGE was paying
attention to the end of Chevron deference.
486
00:22:27,158 --> 00:22:27,790
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes, correct.
487
00:22:27,790 --> 00:22:29,778
>> Peter Robinson: That you guys
have cottoned on to that and
488
00:22:29,778 --> 00:22:31,070
intend to make use of it.
489
00:22:31,070 --> 00:22:32,857
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah.
>> Peter Robinson: That decisions get made
490
00:22:32,857 --> 00:22:37,370
by Congress and the President of the
United States and not by federal agencies.
491
00:22:37,370 --> 00:22:38,985
That's huge, congratulations.
492
00:22:38,985 --> 00:22:39,636
>> Marc Andreessen: Well-
>> Peter Robinson: In fact,
493
00:22:39,636 --> 00:22:40,594
let's end the show right now.
494
00:22:40,594 --> 00:22:41,723
>> Marc Andreessen: So
to start with, by the way,
495
00:22:41,723 --> 00:22:43,044
give Vivek a lot of credit on this.
496
00:22:43,044 --> 00:22:46,147
And so
Vivek has talked about this publicly.
497
00:22:46,147 --> 00:22:49,490
And there's some excellent legal
scholars who are around the donors
498
00:22:49,490 --> 00:22:50,995
who are contributing to this.
499
00:22:50,995 --> 00:22:54,687
So, an argument, and
I think it's a very serious argument,
500
00:22:54,687 --> 00:22:59,160
an argument is if there is an agency
that is either itself should not exist,
501
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,538
which we'll come back to in a second.
502
00:23:01,538 --> 00:23:04,415
Or if there's activities at the agency
that should not be happening, or
503
00:23:04,415 --> 00:23:06,552
there's regulations that
the agency is enforcing.
504
00:23:06,552 --> 00:23:09,546
There is a very strong argument to be
made that it is actually necessary for
505
00:23:09,546 --> 00:23:12,784
the executive branch to stop doing those
things in order to come into compliance
506
00:23:12,784 --> 00:23:14,381
with the Supreme Court rulings.
507
00:23:14,381 --> 00:23:15,062
>> Peter Robinson: Excellent.
508
00:23:15,062 --> 00:23:15,617
>> Marc Andreessen: Right?
509
00:23:15,617 --> 00:23:16,356
>> Peter Robinson: Excellent.
510
00:23:16,356 --> 00:23:17,286
>> Marc Andreessen: Which is the opposite.
511
00:23:17,286 --> 00:23:18,626
>> Peter Robinson: Excellent.
>> Marc Andreessen: Which is the opposite
512
00:23:18,626 --> 00:23:20,195
valence of what everybody assumes.
513
00:23:20,195 --> 00:23:21,042
>> Peter Robinson: Yes.
514
00:23:21,042 --> 00:23:22,366
>> Marc Andreessen: You're making
some radical, productive change.
515
00:23:22,366 --> 00:23:25,086
It's like we're doing what
we're literally required to do.
516
00:23:25,086 --> 00:23:27,951
>> Peter Robinson: Just flip the burden
of evidence, burden of proof.
517
00:23:27,951 --> 00:23:28,694
>> Marc Andreessen: Burden
of proof exactly.
518
00:23:28,694 --> 00:23:29,482
And of course,
519
00:23:29,482 --> 00:23:33,212
these Supreme Court decisions have
had no effect like that up until now.
520
00:23:33,212 --> 00:23:36,079
But that's, of course, cuz this last
administration has had no desire at all.
521
00:23:36,079 --> 00:23:37,724
>> Peter Robinson: Right,
they wanted a new Supreme Court.
522
00:23:37,724 --> 00:23:38,548
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah, exactly.
523
00:23:38,548 --> 00:23:42,977
And so, but this administration has
the opportunity to do this differently.
524
00:23:42,977 --> 00:23:46,283
Pop quiz Peter,
how many federal agencies are there?
525
00:23:46,283 --> 00:23:46,866
>> Peter Robinson: Too many.
526
00:23:46,866 --> 00:23:47,463
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes.
527
00:23:47,463 --> 00:23:51,468
>> Peter Robinson: 127
is some figure I read.
528
00:23:51,468 --> 00:23:54,228
>> Marc Andreessen: No,
it's like in the range of 450 to 500.
529
00:23:54,228 --> 00:23:55,209
>> Peter Robinson: Are you serious?
530
00:23:55,209 --> 00:23:56,011
>> Marc Andreessen: There is a claim
531
00:23:56,011 --> 00:23:56,963
going around-
>> Peter Robinson: And
532
00:23:56,963 --> 00:23:58,275
now 15 Cabinet departments,
533
00:23:58,275 --> 00:24:00,060
I looked that up after seeing this-
>> Marc Andreessen: Well,
534
00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:01,566
we now have this new innovation.
535
00:24:01,566 --> 00:24:04,030
I don't know when it came
out in the last decades,
536
00:24:04,030 --> 00:24:06,424
the concept of an independent agency.
537
00:24:06,424 --> 00:24:07,542
>> Peter Robinson: Yes.
>> Marc Andreessen: [LAUGH] And
538
00:24:07,542 --> 00:24:09,926
I've read the Constitution.
539
00:24:09,926 --> 00:24:10,965
>> Peter Robinson: Independent
of everything,
540
00:24:10,965 --> 00:24:13,526
including the Constitution of
the United States, it's outrageous.
541
00:24:13,526 --> 00:24:14,463
>> Marc Andreessen: I've
read the Constitution,
542
00:24:14,463 --> 00:24:16,346
and there is no provision in there for
an independent agency.
543
00:24:16,346 --> 00:24:16,902
By the way,
544
00:24:16,902 --> 00:24:20,566
there are executive branch agencies
that have their own internal courts.
545
00:24:20,566 --> 00:24:21,312
>> Peter Robinson: Yes.
>> Marc Andreessen: They have
546
00:24:21,312 --> 00:24:21,862
their own judges.
547
00:24:21,862 --> 00:24:23,550
I've read the Constitution,
that's nowhere in there.
548
00:24:23,550 --> 00:24:24,054
>> Peter Robinson: Correct.
549
00:24:24,054 --> 00:24:25,682
>> Marc Andreessen: Right, and
so there's a rumor going around,
550
00:24:25,682 --> 00:24:28,690
I don't know if it's true, there's a rumor
going around that nobody actually knows
551
00:24:28,690 --> 00:24:29,886
the number of federal agencies.
552
00:24:29,886 --> 00:24:32,538
That there's no actual individual
person who actually knows the answer.
553
00:24:32,538 --> 00:24:35,922
One is cuz there's just so many of them,
and there's new ones created every year.
554
00:24:35,922 --> 00:24:39,074
But the other is we have
all these fuzzy things now.
555
00:24:39,074 --> 00:24:41,970
The CFPB is the canonical example
right now, we have these sort of-
556
00:24:41,970 --> 00:24:44,130
>> Peter Robinson: CFPB is the Consumer-
557
00:24:44,130 --> 00:24:44,913
>> Marc Andreessen: Consumer Finance
558
00:24:44,913 --> 00:24:45,802
Protection Board.
559
00:24:45,802 --> 00:24:47,850
>> Peter Robinson: Established
by Senator Elizabeth Warren.
560
00:24:47,850 --> 00:24:49,658
>> Marc Andreessen: It's sort of
considered Warren's agency, yeah, exactly.
561
00:24:49,658 --> 00:24:52,348
And it is nominal, I don't know
the exact legal terminology, but
562
00:24:52,348 --> 00:24:56,210
it's nominally an independent agency under
the supervision of the Federal Reserve.
563
00:24:56,210 --> 00:24:59,059
>> Peter Robinson: Right,
she wrote the legislation specifically so
564
00:24:59,059 --> 00:25:03,100
that no president of the United States
could fire the director of the CF,
565
00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:07,330
whatever it's called CFPP, which is
unconstitutional on the face of it.
566
00:25:07,330 --> 00:25:08,226
>> Marc Andreessen: On the face of it.
567
00:25:08,226 --> 00:25:11,186
Unambiguously, it's still a unit of that,
I don't know if that happened,
568
00:25:11,186 --> 00:25:14,394
I don't know the exact state of that, but
it's the unit of the Federal Reserve.
569
00:25:14,394 --> 00:25:16,345
The constitutionality of
Federal Reserve has always been
570
00:25:16,345 --> 00:25:17,458
a very interesting question.
571
00:25:17,458 --> 00:25:18,394
>> Peter Robinson: Correct.
572
00:25:18,394 --> 00:25:19,858
>> Marc Andreessen: The ability for
the President.
573
00:25:19,858 --> 00:25:22,288
>> Peter Robinson: You're good,
really, okay.
574
00:25:22,288 --> 00:25:24,101
>> Marc Andreessen: I'm not
saying these are easy answers,
575
00:25:24,101 --> 00:25:26,274
but these are important questions, right?
576
00:25:26,274 --> 00:25:28,738
>> Peter Robinson: Just asking
the questions gets you a long way.
577
00:25:28,738 --> 00:25:29,402
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes, exactly.
578
00:25:29,402 --> 00:25:32,760
These are the same issues that
come up when people talk about,
579
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,794
like special prosecutors and
all these things, which is just all right.
580
00:25:36,794 --> 00:25:39,550
It may be a good idea in theory,
it's literally not in the Constitution,
581
00:25:39,550 --> 00:25:40,338
what are we doing?
582
00:25:40,338 --> 00:25:41,706
>> Peter Robinson: Right.
>> Marc Andreessen: The Constitution is
583
00:25:41,706 --> 00:25:45,054
very clear, the president's the chief
law officer of the United States,
584
00:25:45,054 --> 00:25:46,802
that there is no provision in there.
585
00:25:46,802 --> 00:25:49,488
So anyway, so
there are all of these agencies and
586
00:25:49,488 --> 00:25:53,674
components of the government that
have just sprawled out, basically.
587
00:25:53,674 --> 00:25:58,766
A friend of mine, Curtis Yarvin, has this
great line, he says, we are living under
588
00:25:58,766 --> 00:26:03,669
the 80 year evolution of FDR's personal
monarchy, but without FDR, right?
589
00:26:03,669 --> 00:26:06,759
Cuz FDR of course,
is the guy with the New Deal, and so
590
00:26:06,759 --> 00:26:11,301
he turned the federal government from
basically this small overlay thing into
591
00:26:11,301 --> 00:26:13,498
this giant sprawling bureaucracy.
592
00:26:13,498 --> 00:26:15,971
And then it basically has
continued to expand and morph and
593
00:26:15,971 --> 00:26:17,570
mutate under its own power.
594
00:26:17,570 --> 00:26:18,310
And anyway,
595
00:26:18,310 --> 00:26:22,578
so we do seem to have a Supreme Court
that wants to kinda pull this back in.
596
00:26:22,578 --> 00:26:25,262
So anyway, so yes,
there's an opportunity to do this.
597
00:26:25,262 --> 00:26:30,213
The DOGE team has, I think, very clever
ideas on all three of the threads that I
598
00:26:30,213 --> 00:26:33,910
described on spend,
on headcount, and on regulation.
599
00:26:33,910 --> 00:26:35,726
I'll just give you one example, headcount.
600
00:26:35,726 --> 00:26:40,430
Here's another pop quiz is how many
people work for the federal government?
601
00:26:40,430 --> 00:26:41,934
>> Peter Robinson: How many people
work for the federal government?
602
00:26:41,934 --> 00:26:45,850
So as I recall, the Pentagon is
a uniform force of about 2 million and
603
00:26:45,850 --> 00:26:48,086
another million and half civilians.
604
00:26:48,086 --> 00:26:49,457
And then the federal government,
605
00:26:49,457 --> 00:26:52,965
actually the headcount hasn't expanded
that much for 20 or 30 years, as I recall.
606
00:26:52,965 --> 00:26:59,854
It's about 2.5 or 3 million in Washington
DC, civilian bureaucrats, is that right?
607
00:26:59,854 --> 00:27:01,380
>> Marc Andreessen: How many contractors?
608
00:27:01,380 --> 00:27:02,220
>> Peter Robinson: No, okay.
609
00:27:02,220 --> 00:27:05,135
>> Marc Andreessen: [LAUGH]
>> Peter Robinson: Unknown, unknowable.
610
00:27:05,135 --> 00:27:07,726
>> Marc Andreessen: Unknown, unknowable,
there are estimates that are very high.
611
00:27:07,726 --> 00:27:09,258
I won't wing numbers off at the fly, but
612
00:27:09,258 --> 00:27:12,190
there are estimates of
the numbers are much higher.
613
00:27:12,190 --> 00:27:16,553
So yeah, so anyway, so then just sort of
fun fact which is, what's the occupancy
614
00:27:16,553 --> 00:27:21,990
rate of federal buildings in Washington DC
right now by people working in the office?
615
00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:23,638
>> Peter Robinson: Something like 25%,
isn't it?
616
00:27:23,638 --> 00:27:25,082
>> Marc Andreessen: It's
like 25% on average.
617
00:27:25,082 --> 00:27:26,638
>> Peter Robinson: Lower
than San Francisco.
618
00:27:26,638 --> 00:27:28,530
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes,
it's basically that the Washington DC
619
00:27:28,530 --> 00:27:30,966
federal Building Complex
is basically a ghost town.
620
00:27:30,966 --> 00:27:35,046
The security agencies are still full time,
the other agencies are not.
621
00:27:35,046 --> 00:27:35,933
In the extreme cases,
622
00:27:35,933 --> 00:27:39,110
you have certain agencies that are all
the way down to a day, a month.
623
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:41,822
And this is true, there were collective
bargain, and some of the agents,
624
00:27:41,822 --> 00:27:44,620
this is the other thing is that some of
the agencies employees are unionized at
625
00:27:44,620 --> 00:27:46,000
the federal level.
626
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,843
And there were collective bargaining
agreements struck in some of
627
00:27:48,843 --> 00:27:50,520
these agencies where they literally,
628
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,360
during COVID got the right
to never come back to work.
629
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:55,780
And one of the ones that I'm aware of,
an agency I know well,
630
00:27:55,780 --> 00:27:57,760
they literally come back
to work a day a month.
631
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,580
And so what the employees do is
they come back a day, a month but
632
00:28:00,580 --> 00:28:01,696
they pair the days.
633
00:28:01,696 --> 00:28:03,780
And so they come back for
two days every two months.
634
00:28:03,780 --> 00:28:04,720
>> Peter Robinson: Wow.
635
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,983
>> Marc Andreessen: And so it's just like
you ask any CEO in corporate America,
636
00:28:07,983 --> 00:28:11,536
how is this whole thing going,
what are your employees doing?
637
00:28:11,536 --> 00:28:17,324
And every CEO will tell you, what on earth
is happening, are these people working?
638
00:28:17,324 --> 00:28:20,739
And so does the President of the United
States have the legal authority to order
639
00:28:20,739 --> 00:28:22,380
people back to work?
640
00:28:22,380 --> 00:28:24,885
Does it count to be an employee of
the federal government if you're not
641
00:28:24,885 --> 00:28:25,440
in the office?
642
00:28:27,260 --> 00:28:28,372
>> Peter Robinson: All
this is just beautiful.
643
00:28:28,372 --> 00:28:29,624
>> Marc Andreessen: There's a ton
of threads like that that they're
644
00:28:29,624 --> 00:28:30,220
gonna plan to throw.
645
00:28:30,220 --> 00:28:32,388
>> Peter Robinson: All this is beautiful,
really, truly beautiful.
646
00:28:32,388 --> 00:28:35,756
However, DOGE is an advisory commission.
647
00:28:35,756 --> 00:28:36,880
>> Marc Andreessen: Sure.
>> Peter Robinson: I believe this is
648
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,684
the way the President has set it up,
is an advisory commission.
649
00:28:39,684 --> 00:28:41,042
It has its sunset date.
650
00:28:41,042 --> 00:28:42,340
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes.
>> Peter Robinson: It ends on July, or
651
00:28:42,340 --> 00:28:44,938
it goes out of business on July 4th, 2026.
652
00:28:44,938 --> 00:28:46,352
>> Marc Andreessen: That's right.
>> Peter Robinson: I'm very happy,
653
00:28:46,352 --> 00:28:47,442
I like sunsetting.
654
00:28:47,442 --> 00:28:49,230
Anything to do with
the federal government.
655
00:28:50,250 --> 00:28:55,980
But where do you and Elon and Vivek get
the authority to make anybody do anything,
656
00:28:55,980 --> 00:28:59,690
including Congress to pass
enabling legislation,
657
00:28:59,690 --> 00:29:03,818
including the President to
write executive orders or.
658
00:29:03,818 --> 00:29:07,110
Given what little background I have
in Washington, which I Immediately.
659
00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:10,612
Before you can get John Thune, the leader
of the majority leader in the Senate,
660
00:29:10,612 --> 00:29:11,866
to introduce legislation,
661
00:29:11,866 --> 00:29:15,272
he'll have political people looking
at all the political ramifications.
662
00:29:15,272 --> 00:29:16,766
And there's gonna be some senators.
663
00:29:16,766 --> 00:29:20,336
I don't know that you stepped on
the toes of my constituent here.
664
00:29:20,336 --> 00:29:22,600
The politics is going
to start at you guys.
665
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:23,248
>> Marc Andreessen: Right, so
666
00:29:23,248 --> 00:29:25,944
I'll give you one more-
>> Peter Robinson: How do you get stuff
667
00:29:25,944 --> 00:29:27,072
actually done?
668
00:29:27,072 --> 00:29:28,165
>> Marc Andreessen: Can I
give you one more first?
669
00:29:28,165 --> 00:29:28,880
>> Peter Robinson: Please.
670
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,800
>> Marc Andreessen: So I forget the exact
term, but there's a legal term.
671
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:36,330
So Congress authorizes money for
the executive branch to spend.
672
00:29:36,330 --> 00:29:39,058
I forget, is it the recision?
673
00:29:39,058 --> 00:29:42,898
There's a legal term that basically means
that the executive branch is also not
674
00:29:42,898 --> 00:29:46,250
allowed to spend less than
Congress appropriates.
675
00:29:46,250 --> 00:29:49,344
>> Peter Robinson: True, I have a
recommendation, which is that you look at
676
00:29:49,344 --> 00:29:52,760
the 1974 legislation that
removed from Richard Nixon, or
677
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,831
it removed because of Richard Nixon.
678
00:29:54,831 --> 00:29:56,521
The ability of the President,
679
00:29:56,521 --> 00:30:00,616
which at that point had been
traditionally accepted, to impound funds.
680
00:30:00,616 --> 00:30:01,250
>> Marc Andreessen: That's right,
impoundment.
681
00:30:01,250 --> 00:30:04,168
>> Peter Robinson: Impoundment,
we want more impoundment.
682
00:30:04,168 --> 00:30:05,718
We wanna get back to impoundment, correct?
683
00:30:05,718 --> 00:30:08,302
>> Marc Andreessen: Right, impoundment,
yes, I forget which way it goes, but
684
00:30:08,302 --> 00:30:11,497
impoundment is the concept that
the President legally is required to spend
685
00:30:11,497 --> 00:30:13,112
the money that's appropriated.
686
00:30:13,112 --> 00:30:14,960
That the President is not
allowed to save money.
687
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,752
The president is not allowed to spend
less money than Congress is appropriated.
688
00:30:17,752 --> 00:30:20,912
Once again, if you read the Constitution,
it doesn't say that, this has been
689
00:30:20,912 --> 00:30:23,838
an issue of significant constitutional
debate over the last 40 years,
690
00:30:23,838 --> 00:30:25,120
literally since that happen.
691
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:26,314
And there have been Wikipedias, but
692
00:30:26,314 --> 00:30:28,290
there's lots of arguments back and
forth on this.
693
00:30:28,290 --> 00:30:31,970
I don't know if this is the kind of thing
that the Supreme Court would look at.
694
00:30:31,970 --> 00:30:33,506
Might be a good idea, right?
695
00:30:33,506 --> 00:30:35,437
>> Peter Robinson: But the President
of the United States, I mean,
696
00:30:35,437 --> 00:30:38,559
you don't have to be a genius in political
science to construct the argument.
697
00:30:38,559 --> 00:30:42,399
Which is that there's only one man or
woman, one person who faces the entire
698
00:30:42,399 --> 00:30:46,119
country in an election and therefore
can be said to represent a national,
699
00:30:46,119 --> 00:30:48,834
as opposed to all these
little parochial interests.
700
00:30:48,834 --> 00:30:51,882
A national interest in an overall
ceiling on the federal budget.
701
00:30:51,882 --> 00:30:53,850
And that is the President of
the United States, Correct?
702
00:30:53,850 --> 00:30:55,274
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah,
so that's the answer.
703
00:30:55,274 --> 00:30:55,829
>> Peter Robinson: Okay.
704
00:30:55,829 --> 00:30:56,394
>> Marc Andreessen: So that's the answer.
705
00:30:56,394 --> 00:30:59,378
And by the way, to be clear,
I'm not DOGE, I'm an unpaid intern.
706
00:30:59,378 --> 00:31:02,324
>> Peter Robinson: Yes, yes, yes, but
we're having fun, Mark, lots of details.
707
00:31:02,324 --> 00:31:04,035
>> Marc Andreessen: Taking
the Elon are running it, and
708
00:31:04,035 --> 00:31:07,180
then it itself is not getting
set up as a permanent agency.
709
00:31:07,180 --> 00:31:10,074
It doesn't have the authority to execute
on everything we're talking about, but
710
00:31:10,074 --> 00:31:12,780
the White House does, the executive
branch does, and the President does.
711
00:31:12,780 --> 00:31:17,338
And so it will be as it should be, it will
be a decision of the President on what he
712
00:31:17,338 --> 00:31:19,774
wants to do with these recommendations.
713
00:31:19,774 --> 00:31:22,535
The people being staffed
into the positions,
714
00:31:22,535 --> 00:31:27,036
the new head of OMB has talked publicly
about being very aligned with this.
715
00:31:27,036 --> 00:31:29,916
The new head of OPM is actually
a partner of ours, is going in there.
716
00:31:29,916 --> 00:31:31,116
He's very aligned with this.
717
00:31:31,116 --> 00:31:35,357
And so the executive branch will have
the execution capability to be able to
718
00:31:35,357 --> 00:31:40,100
do this, but it's as the President's
deference, and we'll see what happens.
719
00:31:40,100 --> 00:31:43,178
>> Peter Robinson: But from what you have
seen on your many visits to Mar-A-Lago,
720
00:31:43,178 --> 00:31:44,831
this has the personal interest and
721
00:31:44,831 --> 00:31:47,468
support of the President Elect
of the United States.
722
00:31:47,468 --> 00:31:48,724
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah,
he said so repeatedly.
723
00:31:48,724 --> 00:31:52,533
He was asked the other day, he always
gets asked, do you still support Elon?
724
00:31:52,533 --> 00:31:57,042
And he's at least so far,
100% of the time, he's fully supportive.
725
00:31:57,042 --> 00:31:59,011
And so, yeah, he's greenlit this.
726
00:31:59,011 --> 00:32:03,525
I mean, look, Elon has been living at
Mar-A-Lago, right, so they're doing this,
727
00:32:03,525 --> 00:32:07,551
and so look, I have full deference to
the president, he'll do what he wants,
728
00:32:07,551 --> 00:32:08,418
this is there.
729
00:32:08,418 --> 00:32:10,527
Let me give you one more thing on this,
though, and
730
00:32:10,527 --> 00:32:13,240
this goes to what's happening
more broadly in the environment.
731
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,946
And this is one of the reasons why
you have all this panic now about
732
00:32:15,946 --> 00:32:18,650
the decentralship of the Internet,
is that you'll recall.
733
00:32:18,650 --> 00:32:21,617
So I'm sure the Grace Commission tried to
explain to the public what was happening
734
00:32:21,617 --> 00:32:24,240
with federal spending, I know Al Gore
tried to, he went on Letterman and
735
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:25,306
tried to articulate it.
736
00:32:25,306 --> 00:32:28,414
Ross Perot at one point was trying to do
it with the flip charts and all these
737
00:32:28,414 --> 00:32:32,398
things, but there's, we had a Senator
Proxmire out of Wisconsin for a long time.
738
00:32:32,398 --> 00:32:33,132
>> Peter Robinson: Yes, of course.
739
00:32:33,132 --> 00:32:35,757
>> Marc Andreessen: He had the Golden
Fleece Award, he would come out every year
740
00:32:35,757 --> 00:32:39,447
with the crazy spending things, but it was
always like, when Proxmire used to do.
741
00:32:39,447 --> 00:32:43,500
It was always like, it's just two
minutes once a year on NBC News.
742
00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:46,284
Of course, what does Elon have and
what does Vivek have,
743
00:32:46,284 --> 00:32:49,185
and what do the rest of us have now,
is we now have the ability
744
00:32:49,185 --> 00:32:52,164
to actually ventilate this
information in public, right?
745
00:32:52,164 --> 00:32:55,183
We have the ability to actually show and
demonstrate this and
746
00:32:55,183 --> 00:32:57,915
actually expose this to
the public view on both sides.
747
00:32:57,915 --> 00:33:01,854
Number one, here's all the stupid stuff,
here's all the stuff that clearly just
748
00:33:01,854 --> 00:33:04,216
like you're being taken for
a ride on, right?
749
00:33:04,216 --> 00:33:07,645
And then the other side is,
by the way, with corresponding cuts,
750
00:33:07,645 --> 00:33:12,178
here's the money that's being saved that's
going back into the taxpayer pocket, and
751
00:33:12,178 --> 00:33:13,400
so, it's beyond PR.
752
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,464
It's not PR anymore, cuz PR kind of
implies you're going through the press,
753
00:33:16,464 --> 00:33:20,270
those days are over, this is going to
be direct interaction with the public.
754
00:33:20,270 --> 00:33:23,709
>> Peter Robinson: Mark, we've just been
through a decade now in which we were told
755
00:33:23,709 --> 00:33:28,246
again and again and again that Donald John
Trump represents a danger to democracy.
756
00:33:28,246 --> 00:33:28,890
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes [LAUGH].
757
00:33:30,590 --> 00:33:32,882
>> Peter Robinson: You
are describing a renewal.
758
00:33:32,882 --> 00:33:34,657
Renewal of democracy.
759
00:33:34,657 --> 00:33:36,406
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes, 100%, clearly.
760
00:33:36,406 --> 00:33:37,263
>> Peter Robinson: All right.
761
00:33:37,263 --> 00:33:37,774
>> Marc Andreessen: 100%.
762
00:33:37,774 --> 00:33:40,022
>> Peter Robinson: Okay,
I just wanted to check.
763
00:33:40,022 --> 00:33:42,214
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes, and this will
be the key, I just, as an observer,
764
00:33:42,214 --> 00:33:43,721
I say this will ultimately be the key.
765
00:33:43,721 --> 00:33:46,647
The key ultimately is gonna be the direct
relationship with the president,
766
00:33:46,647 --> 00:33:47,640
with the people.
767
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,000
That is ultimately gonna be the key, and
768
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,001
if the people are on board of
the president, you know this.
769
00:33:51,001 --> 00:33:52,756
If the people are on
board of the president,
770
00:33:52,756 --> 00:33:55,886
the President has tremendous power that
gives the President the ability to get
771
00:33:55,886 --> 00:33:57,703
a lot of what he wants
done through Congress.
772
00:33:57,703 --> 00:33:59,909
If the President doesn't have
the support of the people,
773
00:33:59,909 --> 00:34:01,376
Congress can roll him arbitrarily.
774
00:34:01,376 --> 00:34:05,379
And so, Reagan knew this,
by the way, FDR [LAUGH] knew this.
775
00:34:05,379 --> 00:34:09,223
[LAUGH] All the good presidents knew this,
Trump 100% knows this, and
776
00:34:09,223 --> 00:34:11,560
he does this every day, and he's going to.
777
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,616
>> Peter Robinson: If you can bring
the country with you, you can go anywhere.
778
00:34:13,616 --> 00:34:15,120
>> Marc Andreessen: That's right.
779
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,849
>> Peter Robinson: 18 months ago,
you published a 5,000-word essay called
780
00:34:18,849 --> 00:34:22,096
the Techno-Optimist Manifesto,
let me quote you.
781
00:34:22,096 --> 00:34:26,295
We are told that technology takes
our jobs, reduces our wages,
782
00:34:26,295 --> 00:34:31,273
increases inequality, and is ever on
the verge of ruining everything, but
783
00:34:31,273 --> 00:34:34,560
our civilization was built on technology.
784
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,403
Technology is the glory of
human ambition and achievement,
785
00:34:38,403 --> 00:34:42,698
the spearhead of progress, and
the realization of our potential,
786
00:34:42,698 --> 00:34:46,940
it is time once again to
raise the technology flag.
787
00:34:46,940 --> 00:34:48,876
Okay, apart from anything else,
788
00:34:48,876 --> 00:34:53,020
there are not a lot of people in
Silicon Valley who write as well as that.
789
00:34:53,020 --> 00:34:53,920
>> Marc Andreessen: There we go.
790
00:34:55,740 --> 00:34:59,261
>> Peter Robinson: I'd like to ask how we
raise the technology flag with regard to
791
00:34:59,261 --> 00:35:04,136
several specific issues, but first I just
wanna circle back to the president elect,
792
00:35:04,136 --> 00:35:05,440
he's 78 years old.
793
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:11,555
He grew up in an old-fashioned
borough of New York, Queens,
794
00:35:11,555 --> 00:35:15,711
he made his start in his
career in bricks and mortar,
795
00:35:15,711 --> 00:35:20,040
this is a man who made his
money by pouring concrete.
796
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,660
Does he understand technology?
797
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:26,495
Does he feel it the way you feel it,
or, and
798
00:35:26,495 --> 00:35:30,724
it would be good enough if he simply said,
there's something important here.
799
00:35:30,724 --> 00:35:35,162
I may be not quite the right generation or
quite the right background to get it, but
800
00:35:35,162 --> 00:35:37,832
I'll let Andreessen and
Musk handle it for me.
801
00:35:37,832 --> 00:35:39,256
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah, so-
>> Peter Robinson: Where are we with this?
802
00:35:39,256 --> 00:35:41,959
>> Marc Andreessen: I'd say the following,
my analysis would be, he is world-class on
803
00:35:41,959 --> 00:35:45,281
real estate and on communications, and
those are sort of his foundational skills.
804
00:35:45,281 --> 00:35:48,796
And he's world-class on both,
which is probably the first person
805
00:35:48,796 --> 00:35:52,520
in the world to be world-class
in both of those things, right?
806
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,825
The real estate industry is
not historically known for
807
00:35:54,825 --> 00:35:55,978
its great communicators,
808
00:35:55,978 --> 00:36:00,060
here you've got somebody who does
both of those things incredibly well.
809
00:36:00,060 --> 00:36:03,215
He, as a consequence of his knowledge
of real estate, and by the way,
810
00:36:03,215 --> 00:36:06,799
his also involvement in the communications
industry where he was one of the huge
811
00:36:06,799 --> 00:36:09,849
winners of the last 20 years with
what he did with the Apprentice,
812
00:36:09,849 --> 00:36:11,468
which is a very large business.
813
00:36:11,468 --> 00:36:15,034
He very, very deeply understands business,
and [LAUGH] as you know,
814
00:36:15,034 --> 00:36:17,985
one of the questions always
in Washington is like, wow,
815
00:36:17,985 --> 00:36:20,210
there's a lot of lawyers running around.
816
00:36:20,210 --> 00:36:20,719
And wow,
817
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:25,100
there are very few people here who have
actually held a job in the private sector.
818
00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:28,865
And there are very few people here who
have ever actually run a company or
819
00:36:28,865 --> 00:36:31,644
been responsible to investors,
or had customers.
820
00:36:31,644 --> 00:36:35,584
And so he is also one of the most
successful business people of our time.
821
00:36:35,584 --> 00:36:38,351
So I would say those are like
three very powerful skills, and
822
00:36:38,351 --> 00:36:41,730
then I think what you learn,
especiall when you're good at real estate.
823
00:36:41,730 --> 00:36:44,208
And when you're generally
good at business as he is,
824
00:36:44,208 --> 00:36:47,440
I think you learn how to do
what we call systems thinking.
825
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,366
You have to,
I mean these large real estate,
826
00:36:50,366 --> 00:36:55,704
my father-in-law was sort of a Trump kind
of generational peer in real estate.
827
00:36:55,704 --> 00:36:56,408
>> Peter Robinson: John Arrillaga.
828
00:36:56,408 --> 00:36:57,943
>> Marc Andreessen: John Arrillaga,
and talking to John,
829
00:36:57,943 --> 00:37:00,500
like when John put up one of these
towers or one of these campuses or
830
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:02,686
when Trump put up one of these
giant hotels or whatever,
831
00:37:02,686 --> 00:37:04,676
like these are large-scale
systems projects.
832
00:37:04,676 --> 00:37:08,045
There's many, many dimensions, there's
many things that can go wrong, there's
833
00:37:08,045 --> 00:37:11,248
a lot of things that have to line up,
there's huge management complexity to it.
834
00:37:11,248 --> 00:37:14,794
By the way, there is technology change
because you've got all these things coming
835
00:37:14,794 --> 00:37:18,289
at you and solar and all these new things
coming in and all these requirements, and
836
00:37:18,289 --> 00:37:19,676
you got to like manage these.
837
00:37:19,676 --> 00:37:21,859
One of the things these guys,
my father-in-law always told me and
838
00:37:21,859 --> 00:37:24,467
Trump clearly was the same way is you got
to manage these things hands-on because
839
00:37:24,467 --> 00:37:25,492
they can always go sideways.
840
00:37:25,492 --> 00:37:28,915
And any given day you're sitting there
bleeding out money if people aren't doing
841
00:37:28,915 --> 00:37:31,344
the right thing, and so
they're good, he's very good,
842
00:37:31,344 --> 00:37:34,218
I think world-class at thinking
things through systematically.
843
00:37:34,218 --> 00:37:37,804
And we were talking before about
there's this video going around today
844
00:37:37,804 --> 00:37:40,746
of him talking about the water
situation in California.
845
00:37:40,746 --> 00:37:41,386
>> Peter Robinson: Yes, yes.
846
00:37:41,386 --> 00:37:44,784
>> Marc Andreessen: On Joe Rogan,
what was that six months ago or whatever?
847
00:37:44,784 --> 00:37:48,437
>> Donald Trump: I said, why did he have
no water because the water isn't allowed
848
00:37:48,437 --> 00:37:49,394
to flow down?
849
00:37:49,394 --> 00:37:49,918
>> Marc Andreessen: And at the time,
850
00:37:49,918 --> 00:37:52,390
waters one of those classic Trump things
where at the time everybody's like,
851
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:54,474
why is he going on and on about
the water situation in California?
852
00:37:54,474 --> 00:37:58,020
And then of course in the last three days
as we talk, Louisiana is burning down, and
853
00:37:58,020 --> 00:38:01,312
if you listen to what he talked about
with the water situation in California,
854
00:38:01,312 --> 00:38:03,750
it's like, yeah,
that's all correct [LAUGH].
855
00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:06,717
He is exactly 100% correct,
he did the same thing, by the way,
856
00:38:06,717 --> 00:38:10,350
if you remember in the first term when he
diagnosed the German energy situation.
857
00:38:10,350 --> 00:38:11,025
>> Peter Robinson: Yes.
858
00:38:11,025 --> 00:38:13,160
>> Marc Andreessen: To the face
of the German diplomatic corps
859
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:14,383
at the United Nations.
860
00:38:14,383 --> 00:38:16,512
>> Peter Robinson: You people are going
to become dependent on Russia, and
861
00:38:16,512 --> 00:38:18,789
that will be a disaster for you,
and it has been a disaster.
862
00:38:18,789 --> 00:38:20,709
>> Marc Andreessen: And it has been,
and if you go back and you just,
863
00:38:20,709 --> 00:38:23,637
if you forget who did it or if you just
read the transcript and you read it,
864
00:38:23,637 --> 00:38:25,766
you're just like, wow,
that was a really good.
865
00:38:25,766 --> 00:38:29,482
It was an extremely precise and accurate
5 and very prescient 5 minute analysis of
866
00:38:29,482 --> 00:38:32,706
this system's problem, which is,
where's the energy coming from?
867
00:38:32,706 --> 00:38:34,182
How's it going,
what's going to happen here,
868
00:38:34,182 --> 00:38:35,434
what happens if you turn off nuclear?
869
00:38:35,434 --> 00:38:38,537
Same thing in California, what happens
to the water and this and that,
870
00:38:38,537 --> 00:38:42,004
the whole thing, and so he's like really
good at wrapping his head around these
871
00:38:42,004 --> 00:38:43,554
things, I would say at energy.
872
00:38:43,554 --> 00:38:47,103
This is the other thing is he's now
obviously been president for four years,
873
00:38:47,103 --> 00:38:50,925
and so he learned about things to enormous
depth, and so I'm not an energy guy, but
874
00:38:50,925 --> 00:38:54,218
my energy conversation with him,
he's extremely sophisticated.
875
00:38:54,218 --> 00:38:56,401
The energy people I know know
that he's sophisticated, so
876
00:38:56,401 --> 00:38:59,108
he wraps his head around these things,
I think very quickly and easily.
877
00:38:59,108 --> 00:39:02,782
And so I don't expect of him that he's
going to be coding large language
878
00:39:02,782 --> 00:39:06,762
models in his spare time, but I think
he's extremely capable of being able to
879
00:39:06,762 --> 00:39:10,204
understand these things, and
I think actually does quite well.
880
00:39:10,204 --> 00:39:13,574
>> Peter Robinson: Okay, so let's go,
you mentioned energy several times there,
881
00:39:13,574 --> 00:39:17,741
let's go to raising the techno-technology
flag on nuclear energy, quarter of
882
00:39:17,741 --> 00:39:22,132
a century ago, there were 104 nuclear
plants operating in the United States.
883
00:39:22,132 --> 00:39:24,491
Today there are just 94, and
884
00:39:24,491 --> 00:39:29,754
the average age of a nuclear plant
in the United States is 42 years,
885
00:39:29,754 --> 00:39:34,070
how does the technooptimist
respond to that fact set?
886
00:39:34,070 --> 00:39:36,784
>> Marc Andreessen: So this is the great
tragedy of the domestic policies of
887
00:39:36,784 --> 00:39:38,726
the Nixon administration, right.
888
00:39:38,726 --> 00:39:40,630
>> Peter Robinson: Of
the Nixon administration.
889
00:39:40,630 --> 00:39:43,254
>> Marc Andreessen: So Richard Nixon
saw the energy crisis coming and
890
00:39:43,254 --> 00:39:46,774
it developed in his second term,
started getting underway, and
891
00:39:46,774 --> 00:39:50,062
he announced something he
called Project Independence.
892
00:39:50,062 --> 00:39:51,223
And he said, this is ridiculous,
893
00:39:51,223 --> 00:39:53,713
we can't be running on fossil fuels
from the Middle East, this is crazy.
894
00:39:53,713 --> 00:39:56,488
It's entangling us and all this crazy
foreign stuff like we need to stop,
895
00:39:56,488 --> 00:39:58,788
we're the United States,
we can power ourselves, and so.
896
00:39:58,788 --> 00:39:59,717
>> Peter Robinson: On
which he was correct.
897
00:39:59,717 --> 00:40:01,783
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes, of course,
he's completely correct.
898
00:40:01,783 --> 00:40:03,310
He declared Project Independence.
899
00:40:03,310 --> 00:40:06,804
Project Independence was we're gonna
build 1,000 new nuclear power plants in
900
00:40:06,804 --> 00:40:09,916
the United States by the year 2000 and
go completely independent.
901
00:40:09,916 --> 00:40:12,887
So we're gonna cut the entire
grid over to nuclear production,
902
00:40:12,887 --> 00:40:16,452
electrical consumption, by the way,
Corollary, electric cars and so.
903
00:40:16,452 --> 00:40:19,538
And by the way, green like Corollary,
no more carbon emissions, right?
904
00:40:19,538 --> 00:40:22,604
We're gonna have 1,000 nuclear plants,
no carbon emissions, completely green.
905
00:40:22,604 --> 00:40:26,897
Nuclear plants put out water with a small
amount of easily contained waste, but
906
00:40:26,897 --> 00:40:28,420
we're gonna build those.
907
00:40:28,420 --> 00:40:31,970
And we were building nuclear power plants,
as you know, in the 50s, 60s, 70s.
908
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:35,681
But by the 70s we started to have these
new technologies like computers where you
909
00:40:35,681 --> 00:40:38,856
could see a way to build much more
efficient and much safer plants.
910
00:40:38,856 --> 00:40:41,474
Right, so he announced that and
then he created
911
00:40:41,474 --> 00:40:46,457
the Environmental Protection Agency and he
created the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
912
00:40:46,457 --> 00:40:50,483
>> Peter Robinson: Which should shut down
a project which had it gone forward,
913
00:40:50,483 --> 00:40:52,832
would have changed everything.
914
00:40:52,832 --> 00:40:53,378
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes, and
915
00:40:53,378 --> 00:40:57,304
those agencies prevented
Project Independence from happening.
916
00:40:57,304 --> 00:41:00,561
>> Peter Robinson: Okay, so, so can I,
I think this is a brilliant stroke and
917
00:41:00,561 --> 00:41:02,502
that is because it occurred to me.
918
00:41:02,502 --> 00:41:04,454
My own little head in the middle
of the night one night,
919
00:41:04,454 --> 00:41:06,592
I was tossing a turning and
thought, hey, wait a minute.
920
00:41:06,592 --> 00:41:07,737
And here's the hey, wait a minute.
921
00:41:10,157 --> 00:41:15,048
>> Peter Robinson: The first nuclear
submarine was commissioned in 1955.
922
00:41:15,048 --> 00:41:15,660
>> Marc Andreessen: Right.
923
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,911
>> Peter Robinson: Which means
that the United States of America,
924
00:41:20,911 --> 00:41:26,916
which has nuclear powered vessels
of all kinds, has been building and
925
00:41:26,916 --> 00:41:32,233
operating small nuclear reactors for
six and seven decades.
926
00:41:32,233 --> 00:41:37,552
And has the systems down so
well that these things can be operated
927
00:41:37,552 --> 00:41:43,754
by 19 year old kids who haven't even
finish their high school degree.
928
00:41:43,754 --> 00:41:47,386
And the technology is owned
by the American taxpayers.
929
00:41:47,386 --> 00:41:48,298
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes.
930
00:41:48,298 --> 00:41:49,714
>> Peter Robinson: Why
aren't we using this?
931
00:41:49,714 --> 00:41:50,770
>> Marc Andreessen: Where are they?
932
00:41:50,770 --> 00:41:52,108
So as you know-
>> Peter Robinson: And by the way,
933
00:41:52,108 --> 00:41:55,022
the military is exempt from
the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
934
00:41:55,022 --> 00:41:56,782
>> Marc Andreessen: Right,
so they just do it.
935
00:41:56,782 --> 00:41:58,334
>> Peter Robinson: So
is there not a huge opportunity there?
936
00:41:58,334 --> 00:41:59,860
>> Marc Andreessen: And as you know,
literally what they do is they take 19
937
00:41:59,860 --> 00:42:01,686
year old kids and they train them
on how to be nuclear engineers.
938
00:42:01,686 --> 00:42:02,228
>> Peter Robinson: Yes.
>> Marc Andreessen: And
939
00:42:02,228 --> 00:42:04,917
then they send them out
on six month whatever.
940
00:42:04,917 --> 00:42:05,909
>> Peter Robinson: Underwater.
941
00:42:05,909 --> 00:42:06,588
>> Marc Andreessen: Underwater.
>> Peter Robinson: Yes, and
942
00:42:06,588 --> 00:42:09,286
as far as I'm aware,
there's never been a nuclear incident.
943
00:42:09,286 --> 00:42:10,022
>> Marc Andreessen: That's
my understanding.
944
00:42:10,022 --> 00:42:11,382
>> Peter Robinson: Yeah.
945
00:42:11,382 --> 00:42:14,367
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah, the other
amazing thing about that, by the way,
946
00:42:14,367 --> 00:42:15,328
it was pre-DEI.
947
00:42:15,328 --> 00:42:16,134
>> Peter Robinson: Of course.
948
00:42:16,134 --> 00:42:17,379
>> Marc Andreessen: Just
imagine how amazing it is,
949
00:42:17,379 --> 00:42:18,672
given everything we know today,
950
00:42:18,672 --> 00:42:21,584
that you could actually do this
without the enormous benefits of DEI.
951
00:42:21,584 --> 00:42:23,088
Imagine what you could do with DEI.
952
00:42:23,088 --> 00:42:25,136
>> Peter Robinson: Now
you're being subverse.
953
00:42:25,136 --> 00:42:26,784
>> Marc Andreessen: [LAUGH]
Quite possibly.
954
00:42:26,784 --> 00:42:29,629
Anyway, so the more serious part
in those days, as you know,
955
00:42:29,629 --> 00:42:31,873
because they knew they could
do them in subs and so
956
00:42:31,873 --> 00:42:35,656
therefore they just assumed that they
would also do them for airplanes, right?
957
00:42:35,656 --> 00:42:37,616
They're nuclear powered airplanes.
958
00:42:37,616 --> 00:42:38,600
>> Peter Robinson: That I did not.
959
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,320
>> Marc Andreessen: You
remember the Tom Swift novels?
960
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:41,472
>> Peter Robinson: That I remember, yes.
961
00:42:41,472 --> 00:42:42,816
>> Marc Andreessen: I'm reading
them with my 9 year old and
962
00:42:42,816 --> 00:42:44,912
it's the very first time
there's multiple generations.
963
00:42:44,912 --> 00:42:46,752
Tom Swift boy inventor.
964
00:42:46,752 --> 00:42:49,592
And these novels basically for
kids, they were like whatever,
965
00:42:49,592 --> 00:42:51,380
Harry Potter of the time or something.
966
00:42:51,380 --> 00:42:55,156
But there's this great series from the 50s
with the second generation Tom Swift, and
967
00:42:55,156 --> 00:42:55,956
they're great.
968
00:42:55,956 --> 00:42:59,608
And it's like Tom Swift invents this and
that, he invents all these things and
969
00:42:59,608 --> 00:43:00,196
you get to.
970
00:43:00,196 --> 00:43:01,396
And then has adventures based on them.
971
00:43:01,396 --> 00:43:03,084
And so they're very exciting books.
972
00:43:03,084 --> 00:43:05,156
But the very first book is Tom Swift and
his Flying Lab.
973
00:43:05,156 --> 00:43:08,423
And of course the flying lab is
a triple decker 747 thing with
974
00:43:08,423 --> 00:43:12,740
this vertical takeoff and landing
powered by its own nuclear power plant.
975
00:43:12,740 --> 00:43:15,392
And you just assumed,
of course, of course,
976
00:43:15,392 --> 00:43:17,540
of course you put a nuclear because.
977
00:43:17,540 --> 00:43:20,337
And if you put,
by the way a nuclear plant in a plane,
978
00:43:20,337 --> 00:43:23,656
of course you could have a 747
that takes off vertically.
979
00:43:23,656 --> 00:43:27,256
And by the way, in the book they literally
take the thing up to like 30,000ft and
980
00:43:27,256 --> 00:43:30,306
they just park it and they just hang
in midair and hover for three hours and
981
00:43:30,306 --> 00:43:30,859
have lunch.
982
00:43:30,859 --> 00:43:31,591
>> Peter Robinson: Which you can do.
983
00:43:31,591 --> 00:43:33,584
>> Marc Andreessen: Which you can
do if you have unlimited power.
984
00:43:33,584 --> 00:43:35,456
Yes, this is it.
985
00:43:35,456 --> 00:43:38,728
And by the way, this technology is for
people concerned about carbon emissions.
986
00:43:38,728 --> 00:43:40,472
This technology is the silver bullet.
987
00:43:40,472 --> 00:43:46,147
>> Peter Robinson: It is, is the general
feeling, my general feeling, correct,
988
00:43:46,147 --> 00:43:51,085
that if we unleash technology,
we use the free market,
989
00:43:51,085 --> 00:43:57,250
we use what the government has
already discovered an intelligent.
990
00:43:57,250 --> 00:44:00,450
That there are all kinds of problems
we already know how to solve.
991
00:44:00,450 --> 00:44:01,434
>> Marc Andreessen: We
totally know how to do this.
992
00:44:01,434 --> 00:44:05,601
And to your point, most of the nuclear
plants that we have today are now 30, 40,
993
00:44:05,601 --> 00:44:06,938
50, 60 years old.
994
00:44:06,938 --> 00:44:08,986
We know how to build much better versions.
995
00:44:08,986 --> 00:44:09,642
>> Peter Robinson: Yes.
996
00:44:09,642 --> 00:44:11,962
>> Marc Andreessen: We know how to build
much more sophisticated versions of this,
997
00:44:11,962 --> 00:44:13,818
and by the way, so
do the Japanese and others.
998
00:44:13,818 --> 00:44:16,277
And so the new plants would be
much better than the old plants,
999
00:44:16,277 --> 00:44:17,330
they would be much safer.
1000
00:44:18,550 --> 00:44:20,170
We know exactly how to do this.
1001
00:44:23,110 --> 00:44:25,714
My devious plan is we should
reincarnate Project Independence,
1002
00:44:25,714 --> 00:44:28,788
we should build a thousand new civilian
plants, we should do the Nixon plan,
1003
00:44:28,788 --> 00:44:29,942
kind of everything over.
1004
00:44:29,942 --> 00:44:31,814
But here's my way to get
it done politically,
1005
00:44:31,814 --> 00:44:34,230
which is we give Charles Koch contract.
1006
00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:38,678
And the reason is because it accomplishes
everybody's goals, he would do it-
1007
00:44:38,678 --> 00:44:39,724
>> Peter Robinson: You'd better give us
1008
00:44:39,724 --> 00:44:41,536
two sentences on who Charles Koch.
1009
00:44:41,536 --> 00:44:42,176
>> Marc Andreessen: Charles Koch,
1010
00:44:42,176 --> 00:44:45,824
people know the Koch brothers was always a
misnomer, I mean, there were brothers, but
1011
00:44:45,824 --> 00:44:48,305
really it was,
when people think about the Koch brothers.
1012
00:44:48,305 --> 00:44:49,547
>> Peter Robinson: Charles Koch and
the brothers.
1013
00:44:49,547 --> 00:44:50,929
>> Marc Andreessen: The genius
of the family, and
1014
00:44:50,929 --> 00:44:54,741
is the guy who still runs Koch Industries,
which is one of the largest companies in
1015
00:44:54,741 --> 00:44:57,801
the country, one of the largest
private companies in the world.
1016
00:44:57,801 --> 00:45:00,032
>> Peter Robinson: He stands out in
American business history, as I recall.
1017
00:45:00,032 --> 00:45:03,360
If I think, I think I have this correct,
that Charles Koch and
1018
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,520
his brothers inherited a successful but
modest company from their father and
1019
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,378
built it into a company which,
last time I checked, had revenues of.
1020
00:45:11,378 --> 00:45:13,442
Well, I don't know whether
it was revenues or market.
1021
00:45:13,442 --> 00:45:15,402
It's a company that's worth $100 billion.
1022
00:45:15,402 --> 00:45:17,890
I believe that that's correct
as of a few years ago.
1023
00:45:17,890 --> 00:45:20,410
And did it without ever borrowing a penny.
1024
00:45:20,410 --> 00:45:23,610
They did it entirely on
reinvesting profits.
1025
00:45:23,610 --> 00:45:26,616
>> Marc Andreessen: And they reinvest,
by doctrine, under Charles's leadership,
1026
00:45:26,616 --> 00:45:28,738
they reinvest 90% of profits every year.
1027
00:45:28,738 --> 00:45:30,743
>> Peter Robinson: Okay so
why is he gonna be interested in-
1028
00:45:30,743 --> 00:45:31,295
>> Marc Andreessen: by the way,
1029
00:45:31,295 --> 00:45:34,009
I don't know what it's worth,
but I suspect it's much-
1030
00:45:34,009 --> 00:45:35,230
>> Peter Robinson: Bigger than that.
1031
00:45:35,230 --> 00:45:36,493
>> Marc Andreessen: I
think it's very large,
1032
00:45:36,493 --> 00:45:38,830
very successful if it were to go public.
1033
00:45:38,830 --> 00:45:41,486
But yeah, look, I mean,
Charles is number one.
1034
00:45:41,486 --> 00:45:44,446
Charles is one of the genius businessmen,
industrialists of our time.
1035
00:45:44,446 --> 00:45:47,174
He also became, of course,
a major force in politics.
1036
00:45:47,174 --> 00:45:50,502
He and the Koch brothers got tarred
with this, they're fascist Nazis.
1037
00:45:50,502 --> 00:45:54,676
Even though, as you probably know, Charles
is a libertarian, he's a libertarian,
1038
00:45:54,676 --> 00:45:55,606
free market guy.
1039
00:45:55,606 --> 00:45:58,678
He's a [INAUDIBLE] Milei, he and Milei,
basically right, have sort of identical.
1040
00:45:58,678 --> 00:46:00,918
Milton Friedman, he's a libertarian.
1041
00:46:00,918 --> 00:46:02,014
>> Peter Robinson: I've
interviewed him on this program.
1042
00:46:02,014 --> 00:46:04,867
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah, and by the way,
also just a wonderful human being,
1043
00:46:04,867 --> 00:46:07,910
really warm and genuine,
incredibly open, wonderful guy.
1044
00:46:09,050 --> 00:46:11,605
So my idea is you give him
the contract to do it cuz number one,
1045
00:46:11,605 --> 00:46:14,634
he'd do a great job cuz it's one of
the best industrials in the world.
1046
00:46:14,634 --> 00:46:19,883
So he would win cuz Koch industries would
be rebuilding the power system for the US.
1047
00:46:19,883 --> 00:46:22,628
And then the Democrats would win cuz
they'd make Charles Koch care about
1048
00:46:22,628 --> 00:46:24,250
climate change.
1049
00:46:24,250 --> 00:46:26,362
And not just that, but actually solve it.
1050
00:46:26,362 --> 00:46:30,170
And so everybody would get both
what they most hate and most want.
1051
00:46:30,170 --> 00:46:33,524
Now, when I have floated this
idea in Washington up until now,
1052
00:46:33,524 --> 00:46:37,668
I haven't gotten a lot of takers, but
maybe it's time to bring it up again.
1053
00:46:37,668 --> 00:46:40,864
>> Peter Robinson: Mark, I'm going to
try to extend this theme of problems
1054
00:46:40,864 --> 00:46:45,216
we already know how to solve if the techno
optimists are permitted to address
1055
00:46:45,216 --> 00:46:46,212
the problem.
1056
00:46:46,212 --> 00:46:51,560
And that is, now this is a flyer, I don't
know that I'm right, that's the border.
1057
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:52,811
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah.
>> Peter Robinson: During the Biden
1058
00:46:52,811 --> 00:46:56,630
administration, Customs Services
recorded 11 million encounters,
1059
00:46:56,630 --> 00:47:00,484
releasing about 2.5 million into
the country to await processing.
1060
00:47:00,484 --> 00:47:04,422
The government also admits,
admits some 2 million gotaways.
1061
00:47:04,422 --> 00:47:09,398
So that makes, by the government's own
admission, at least 4.5 million illegal
1062
00:47:09,398 --> 00:47:14,590
entries into the United States during the
four years of the Biden administration.
1063
00:47:14,590 --> 00:47:19,585
Okay, on top of which I note,
that as far as I can tell, Donald Trump,
1064
00:47:19,585 --> 00:47:24,246
in his first term only built 80
original miles of border wall.
1065
00:47:24,246 --> 00:47:26,310
He refurbished wall and straighten.
1066
00:47:26,310 --> 00:47:31,240
But set all that aside.
1067
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:36,600
Don't we have ground sensors,
drones we can put up?
1068
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:41,284
Of course it lies within the ken
of the United States of America to
1069
00:47:41,284 --> 00:47:46,448
control its own border using
the technology that we already possess.
1070
00:47:46,448 --> 00:47:47,448
Am I wrong about this?
1071
00:47:47,448 --> 00:47:49,392
>> Marc Andreessen: Well, let me tell
the story of this company called Anduril.
1072
00:47:49,392 --> 00:47:50,288
>> Peter Robinson: Anduril.
>> Marc Andreessen: Anduril.
1073
00:47:50,288 --> 00:47:51,016
>> Peter Robinson: Which
you've invested in.
1074
00:47:51,016 --> 00:47:52,158
>> Marc Andreessen: Which
we've invested in.
1075
00:47:52,158 --> 00:47:54,918
Okay, so the founder of
Anderil is this super genius,
1076
00:47:54,918 --> 00:47:58,594
real life Tony Stark kinda character,
the Howard Hughes of our time.
1077
00:47:58,594 --> 00:48:00,683
Real life Iron man named,
Named Palmer Luckey.
1078
00:48:00,683 --> 00:48:01,711
>> Peter Robinson: Palmer Luckey.
1079
00:48:01,711 --> 00:48:04,292
>> Marc Andreessen: Who's this,
super genius from Orange County.
1080
00:48:04,292 --> 00:48:07,248
And we knew him really well because
he was the founder of Oculus,
1081
00:48:07,248 --> 00:48:09,178
which the VR company that then Metabolt.
1082
00:48:09,178 --> 00:48:10,902
We were investors in that.
1083
00:48:10,902 --> 00:48:14,700
And so,
he's got two giant wins in a row here.
1084
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:20,631
And basically he used the money from
Oculus to basically start Anduril
1085
00:48:20,631 --> 00:48:24,830
with a bunch of his partners,
and they launched the company.
1086
00:48:24,830 --> 00:48:28,356
When the Trump stuff in 2016 reached,
white hot criticality, and
1087
00:48:28,356 --> 00:48:30,484
everybody was going completely bananas.
1088
00:48:30,484 --> 00:48:34,006
Palmer shows up and he's like,
I know how to solve the border problem.
1089
00:48:34,006 --> 00:48:37,277
We do basically mesh networks with
sensor towers on the border and
1090
00:48:37,277 --> 00:48:39,065
then with drones doing oversight.
1091
00:48:39,065 --> 00:48:42,085
And then we do what's called sensor
fusion, where you have all these different
1092
00:48:42,085 --> 00:48:44,805
dispersed sensors and then you bring
them together on a single screen.
1093
00:48:44,805 --> 00:48:47,863
And then you can tag individual people and
you can watch them come across, and
1094
00:48:47,863 --> 00:48:48,628
you can use it for.
1095
00:48:48,628 --> 00:48:49,621
>> Peter Robinson: If there's a problem,
1096
00:48:49,621 --> 00:48:51,465
you can send in
the personnel to solve them.
1097
00:48:51,465 --> 00:48:52,385
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah, exactly.
1098
00:48:52,385 --> 00:48:54,446
Or, by the way,
you can send in a drone, right?
1099
00:48:54,446 --> 00:48:55,176
>> Peter Robinson: A drone?
1100
00:48:55,176 --> 00:48:56,073
>> Marc Andreessen: And
look like the border.
1101
00:48:56,073 --> 00:48:56,933
For anybody who works in the border,
1102
00:48:56,933 --> 00:48:58,988
what they'll tell you is, look, there's
one thing which is border enforcement, and
1103
00:48:58,988 --> 00:49:00,292
there's a lot of questions
about what to do with that.
1104
00:49:00,292 --> 00:49:01,964
But the other is, like,
people get in real trouble on the border.
1105
00:49:01,964 --> 00:49:02,569
>> Peter Robinson: Yes.
1106
00:49:02,569 --> 00:49:03,642
>> Marc Andreessen: And
they're like, they're dying.
1107
00:49:03,642 --> 00:49:05,365
>> Peter Robinson: They're dying.
1108
00:49:05,365 --> 00:49:08,782
>> Marc Andreessen: Starvation and,
like, thirst, haeat and so forth.
1109
00:49:08,782 --> 00:49:10,026
>> Peter Robinson: With a drone,
you can find somebody who's in
1110
00:49:10,026 --> 00:49:10,689
trouble and help them.
1111
00:49:10,689 --> 00:49:11,433
>> Marc Andreessen: And bring them water.
1112
00:49:11,433 --> 00:49:14,706
And bring them water, or by the way,
the other problem is child trafficking.
1113
00:49:14,706 --> 00:49:18,644
And so it's like, let's get eyes on
a potential child trafficking if there's
1114
00:49:18,644 --> 00:49:20,188
like two adults and 20 kids.
1115
00:49:20,188 --> 00:49:24,234
Okay, let's get eyes on that so that we're
ready so we can go get the kids, right?
1116
00:49:24,234 --> 00:49:28,109
And so obviously you want to know
what's happening, bu this was like,
1117
00:49:28,109 --> 00:49:30,964
right in the teeth of the build
a wall kind of moment.
1118
00:49:30,964 --> 00:49:34,695
And so Palmer comes in and pitches us and
goes through the whole thing.
1119
00:49:34,695 --> 00:49:37,864
And literally it's just like, my God,
this is like the genius of all time.
1120
00:49:37,864 --> 00:49:39,084
We have to invest in this company.
1121
00:49:39,084 --> 00:49:43,025
And his business plan is to use technology
to hunt Mexicans on the southern border in
1122
00:49:43,025 --> 00:49:43,668
2016.
1123
00:49:43,668 --> 00:49:47,827
And we're just like, God,
we just basically have a heart attack.
1124
00:49:47,827 --> 00:49:51,996
And to our discredit, we flinch and
we don't make the investment.
1125
00:49:51,996 --> 00:49:54,684
Anduril goes on, and
actually, it's interesting.
1126
00:49:54,684 --> 00:49:58,390
Anduril was actually not very successful
in that program under Trump because it
1127
00:49:58,390 --> 00:50:00,614
turns out Trump being
a real estate developer.
1128
00:50:00,614 --> 00:50:01,459
>> Peter Robinson: He wants awall.
1129
00:50:01,459 --> 00:50:02,626
>> Marc Andreessen: He
actually wants a wal.
1130
00:50:02,626 --> 00:50:03,513
And by the way, still does.
1131
00:50:03,513 --> 00:50:04,941
And I think this time he's, by the way,
1132
00:50:04,941 --> 00:50:06,928
this time he'll get it because
now he knows how to do it.
1133
00:50:06,928 --> 00:50:10,573
But as you know, he ran into a lot
of roadblocks in the first term.
1134
00:50:10,573 --> 00:50:13,372
Still built quite a bit,
but hit roadblocks anyway.
1135
00:50:13,372 --> 00:50:17,624
So Palmer's like,
all right, fine, whatever.
1136
00:50:17,624 --> 00:50:19,928
And so what he started doing
is he took that technology and
1137
00:50:19,928 --> 00:50:22,744
he used it to start building
defensive systems for the military.
1138
00:50:22,744 --> 00:50:26,004
And so, for example, you have a military
base in the middle of nowhere in
1139
00:50:26,004 --> 00:50:29,905
Afghanistan or whatever, and you have all
these potential threats coming at you, and
1140
00:50:29,905 --> 00:50:31,415
you have the exact same problem.
1141
00:50:31,415 --> 00:50:33,088
You have perimeter security problem.
1142
00:50:33,088 --> 00:50:36,814
And so they started deploying sensor
networks and sensor fusion and drones and
1143
00:50:36,814 --> 00:50:39,365
all these things to be able
to defend military bases.
1144
00:50:39,365 --> 00:50:44,000
And then one of the most amazing
things I've ever seen happened,
1145
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,562
which is, and Palmer in the Valley,
was like a pariah, right?
1146
00:50:48,562 --> 00:50:49,909
He was excoriated.
1147
00:50:49,909 --> 00:50:53,488
He was constantly being smeared and
slandered for being a horrible fascist
1148
00:50:53,488 --> 00:50:56,974
Nazi, being like the worst person
imaginable, like, all this stuff.
1149
00:50:56,974 --> 00:50:58,352
And then this life's incredibly.
1150
00:50:58,352 --> 00:51:00,271
And he couldn't get invited
industry conferences and
1151
00:51:00,271 --> 00:51:01,862
people just said all
these horrible things.
1152
00:51:01,862 --> 00:51:04,786
The day, [LAUGH] Putin invaded Ukraine,
1153
00:51:04,786 --> 00:51:08,578
the political valence went
180 degrees in a day.
1154
00:51:08,578 --> 00:51:12,128
And Palmer became a hero of
every liberal in Silicon Valley.
1155
00:51:12,128 --> 00:51:16,039
Because now Anduril is going to like,
there's two things that we know.
1156
00:51:16,039 --> 00:51:17,714
There's two things every
good American liberal knows.
1157
00:51:17,714 --> 00:51:20,985
We absolutely must not defend
the American southern border, and
1158
00:51:20,985 --> 00:51:23,490
we absolutely must defend
the Ukrainian border.
1159
00:51:23,490 --> 00:51:24,643
>> Peter Robinson: Yes, yes, yes.
1160
00:51:24,643 --> 00:51:26,738
>> Marc Andreessen: We must,
[LAUGH] the whole Ukrainian border, right?
1161
00:51:26,738 --> 00:51:30,298
And Anduril in that time had become
a very successful company, and
1162
00:51:30,298 --> 00:51:34,700
by the way, was doing increasingly
sophisticated defensive military systems.
1163
00:51:34,700 --> 00:51:37,869
And by the way, now is actually
doing offensive military systems.
1164
00:51:37,869 --> 00:51:41,048
It's actually up to, and
including full weapon systems.
1165
00:51:41,048 --> 00:51:44,694
And so all of a sudden that
technology became super relevant to
1166
00:51:44,694 --> 00:51:46,222
the Ukraine situation.
1167
00:51:46,222 --> 00:51:49,592
As you know, the Ukrainian battlefield has
been a revolution in military technology
1168
00:51:49,592 --> 00:51:50,495
with the drone stuff.
1169
00:51:50,495 --> 00:51:54,382
And so
all of Palmer's theories are coming true.
1170
00:51:54,382 --> 00:51:58,123
>> Peter Robinson: Ukrainian kids
operating drones shut down the Russian
1171
00:51:58,123 --> 00:51:59,675
navy in the Black Sea.
1172
00:51:59,675 --> 00:52:00,798
>> Marc Andreessen: That's right.
1173
00:52:00,798 --> 00:52:02,778
>> Peter Robinson: It is
an astonishing achievement, okay.
1174
00:52:02,778 --> 00:52:05,422
>> Marc Andreessen: And
they take out these main battle tanks.
1175
00:52:05,422 --> 00:52:06,498
>> Peter Robinson: Which brings me to,
if I may.
1176
00:52:06,498 --> 00:52:07,236
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah.
1177
00:52:07,236 --> 00:52:08,306
>> Peter Robinson: Just again,
your feel for it.
1178
00:52:08,306 --> 00:52:13,758
If I'm still with
the techno-optimist manifesto.
1179
00:52:13,758 --> 00:52:17,951
This notion of raising the technology
flag, another problem, we may not have it.
1180
00:52:17,951 --> 00:52:24,616
It's larger, it's more, but in this
administrative, is Donald Trump, is Doge.
1181
00:52:24,616 --> 00:52:26,079
Is somebody saying,
1182
00:52:26,079 --> 00:52:30,563
get me a Palmer Lucky as
Deputy Secretary of Defense, we have to.
1183
00:52:30,563 --> 00:52:34,096
Or here again, this is Robinson's
little way of thinking of it.
1184
00:52:34,096 --> 00:52:36,376
Extremely elementary,
but it goes like this.
1185
00:52:36,376 --> 00:52:39,568
The Chinese outnumber us and
they always will.
1186
00:52:39,568 --> 00:52:43,712
The Chinese have a big enough economy to
spend what they want to on defense now.
1187
00:52:43,712 --> 00:52:47,120
And by many counts, they've already
got more surface vessels than we have.
1188
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,940
They're working on submarines,
on and on it goes.
1189
00:52:49,940 --> 00:52:52,894
Our only sustainable
advantage over the Chinese,
1190
00:52:52,894 --> 00:52:57,404
our only sustainable advantage is
going to be technological innovation.
1191
00:52:57,404 --> 00:53:02,330
And so we have to have a Pentagon that
knows how to move quickly on innovation
1192
00:53:02,330 --> 00:53:07,804
and somehow or other is able to overcome
the cultural divide between straight laced
1193
00:53:07,804 --> 00:53:12,885
colonels who run the requisition programs
and the Palmer Luckies of the world
1194
00:53:12,885 --> 00:53:17,842
who build their companies wearing
Hawaiian shirts in Converse sneakers.
1195
00:53:17,842 --> 00:53:20,082
But we ought to be able to do that.
1196
00:53:20,082 --> 00:53:20,999
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah,
so that you may know,
1197
00:53:20,999 --> 00:53:22,584
the guy going in is
Deputy Secretary of Defense.
1198
00:53:22,584 --> 00:53:25,288
So number two,
who's like the chief operating officer for
1199
00:53:25,288 --> 00:53:26,890
the Pentagon is Steve Feinberg.
1200
00:53:26,890 --> 00:53:27,491
>> Peter Robinson: I don't know.
1201
00:53:27,491 --> 00:53:29,383
>> Marc Andreessen: So
Steve Feinberg was the longtime head
1202
00:53:29,383 --> 00:53:31,170
of Cerberus Capital Management.
1203
00:53:31,170 --> 00:53:32,913
So he's one of the world's
leading private companies.
1204
00:53:32,913 --> 00:53:34,626
>> Peter Robinson: So
he's already on this.
1205
00:53:34,626 --> 00:53:36,193
>> Marc Andreessen: He's already on this.
He's already on this, and
1206
00:53:36,193 --> 00:53:37,506
then he ran actually the.
1207
00:53:37,506 --> 00:53:39,459
>> Peter Robinson: This is the most
good news I've had at this table in
1208
00:53:39,459 --> 00:53:39,976
a long time.
1209
00:53:39,976 --> 00:53:40,533
>> Marc Andreessen: He's great.
1210
00:53:40,533 --> 00:53:41,441
He's great.
So this is probably,
1211
00:53:41,441 --> 00:53:44,396
I think he is, I mean, look, and
they've had Cape Pole Ash Carter was a,
1212
00:53:44,396 --> 00:53:45,990
who passed away, was a friend of mine.
1213
00:53:45,990 --> 00:53:47,056
They've had good people in there.
1214
00:53:47,056 --> 00:53:50,967
But I think Steve is probably the best
person in that role since actually
1215
00:53:50,967 --> 00:53:53,718
David Packard,
who was in that role, I believe.
1216
00:53:53,718 --> 00:53:54,366
>> Peter Robinson: Okay.
>> Marc Andreessen: And
1217
00:53:54,366 --> 00:53:57,716
Steve is like an incredible operator and
very aware of these things and
1218
00:53:57,716 --> 00:53:59,095
very steeped in this world.
1219
00:53:59,095 --> 00:54:03,147
And he ran the Presidential Intelligence
Advisor Board in the first Trump term and
1220
00:54:03,147 --> 00:54:05,040
is kind of fully integrated in.
1221
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:06,266
And then I'll just tell you,
1222
00:54:06,266 --> 00:54:09,410
like without naming names of people
haven't been announced, but people,
1223
00:54:09,410 --> 00:54:12,130
a lot of very smart people are putting
up their hands and going in.
1224
00:54:12,130 --> 00:54:12,872
>> Peter Robinson: Excellent.
1225
00:54:12,872 --> 00:54:15,232
>> Marc Andreessen: And by the way,
to your point, this is a great example.
1226
00:54:15,232 --> 00:54:17,282
The issues are just starting, right?
1227
00:54:17,282 --> 00:54:19,712
So the Ukrainian battlefield
is a revolution.
1228
00:54:19,712 --> 00:54:23,472
By the way, there's also like
all kinds of unfortunately,
1229
00:54:23,472 --> 00:54:27,660
Ukraine being the tragedy that it is,
people are learning a lot.
1230
00:54:27,660 --> 00:54:28,712
The nature of war is changing,
1231
00:54:28,712 --> 00:54:31,066
unfortunately, the same thing's
happening with Israel and Gaza.
1232
00:54:31,066 --> 00:54:34,036
There's a lot is being learned.
1233
00:54:34,036 --> 00:54:34,605
This is what happened.
1234
00:54:34,605 --> 00:54:36,952
>> Peter Robinson: Or some, I can't
remember who was some famous general
1235
00:54:36,952 --> 00:54:38,060
said, war.
1236
00:54:38,060 --> 00:54:40,136
War is a test to see who can learn faster.
1237
00:54:40,136 --> 00:54:42,553
>> Marc Andreessen: So the military is
one of these amazing things where in
1238
00:54:42,553 --> 00:54:45,240
peacetime, they're training and
they're preparing and
1239
00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:48,232
they have all these theories,
but they're not being tested.
1240
00:54:48,232 --> 00:54:50,848
They don't have customers.
1241
00:54:50,848 --> 00:54:52,000
[LAUGH] There's no mark to market.
1242
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:53,062
In peacetime, you don't know.
1243
00:54:53,062 --> 00:54:53,792
>> Peter Robinson: Right.
1244
00:54:53,792 --> 00:54:55,569
>> Marc Andreessen: When you know,
unfortunately, is when you go to war.
1245
00:54:55,569 --> 00:54:57,624
And that's when all the learning happens.
1246
00:54:57,624 --> 00:55:00,504
And so there's learning happening there,
learning happening in Ukraine,
1247
00:55:00,504 --> 00:55:02,376
there's learning happening in Israel and
Gaza.
1248
00:55:02,376 --> 00:55:04,355
And then,
if something kicks off with China,
1249
00:55:04,355 --> 00:55:06,880
there will be very rapid
learning very fast.
1250
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:10,066
I would just pose to you a challenge
into the system, for example.
1251
00:55:10,066 --> 00:55:13,727
It's not clear sitting here today with
what we know, it's not clear that, like,
1252
00:55:13,727 --> 00:55:15,712
surface naval vessels are actually used.
1253
00:55:15,712 --> 00:55:16,653
>> Peter Robinson: Correct.
>> Marc Andreessen: Right, because-
1254
00:55:16,653 --> 00:55:17,239
>> Peter Robinson: Somebody has to
1255
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:17,919
figure this out.
1256
00:55:17,919 --> 00:55:20,064
>> Marc Andreessen: Exactly,
and aircraft carriers are open.
1257
00:55:20,064 --> 00:55:25,268
Tthere are entire military doctrines
of not just us, but many other players.
1258
00:55:25,268 --> 00:55:26,773
>> Peter Robinson: I asked
someone I probably shouldn't
1259
00:55:26,773 --> 00:55:27,859
name because he doesn't.
1260
00:55:27,859 --> 00:55:29,416
I don't know whether
this was in confidence.
1261
00:55:29,416 --> 00:55:34,637
I asked a former admiral the other day,
if shooting begins over Taiwan,
1262
00:55:34,637 --> 00:55:38,176
how close can American
aircraft carriers get?
1263
00:55:38,176 --> 00:55:42,764
And he said,
American aircraft carriers must stay 1,000
1264
00:55:42,764 --> 00:55:45,738
miles away from any hostile activity.
1265
00:55:45,738 --> 00:55:49,789
The Chinese have already pushed
the surface perimeter out 1,000 miles.
1266
00:55:49,789 --> 00:55:52,638
Anyway, to your point-
>> Marc Andreessen: Hypersonics are coming
1267
00:55:52,638 --> 00:55:54,376
and then drones are coming.
1268
00:55:54,376 --> 00:55:55,034
>> Peter Robinson: Exactly.
1269
00:55:55,034 --> 00:55:56,906
>> Marc Andreessen: And I just said,
we're at the very beginning.
1270
00:55:56,906 --> 00:55:59,911
This is why it's very important that
these people be good, to your point that.
1271
00:55:59,911 --> 00:56:02,460
The drone thing is just at the very
beginning cuz the Ukraine stuff,
1272
00:56:02,460 --> 00:56:05,098
there's a lot of hobbyist drones and
there's these low end drones.
1273
00:56:05,098 --> 00:56:08,007
But the drones are gonna
get very sophisticated and
1274
00:56:08,007 --> 00:56:11,690
they're gonna get manufactured
in much higher quantities.
1275
00:56:11,690 --> 00:56:14,389
And so, every time you see a drone today,
1276
00:56:14,389 --> 00:56:18,610
just think of that actually
being 1,000 drones, right?
1277
00:56:18,610 --> 00:56:24,610
So what does even a naval destroyer
do against 1,000 incoming drones
1278
00:56:24,610 --> 00:56:30,332
that are all armed with bombs big enough
to blow a hole in the side of it?
1279
00:56:30,332 --> 00:56:31,267
You mentioned Ukraine.
1280
00:56:31,267 --> 00:56:33,846
The Ukraine,
I think has been weaponizing jet skis.
1281
00:56:33,846 --> 00:56:34,500
>> Peter Robinson: Jet skis?
1282
00:56:34,500 --> 00:56:35,062
>> Marc Andreessen: Jet skis,
1283
00:56:35,062 --> 00:56:38,877
I think that was part of the attack
they did on the Russian surface fleet.
1284
00:56:38,877 --> 00:56:42,272
Was they turned commercial
jet skis into drone bombs.
1285
00:56:42,272 --> 00:56:44,970
And so,
it's long conversation we had about,
1286
00:56:44,970 --> 00:56:47,204
there's all kinds of ways to win here.
1287
00:56:47,204 --> 00:56:50,261
But these questions all
have to be looked at,
1288
00:56:50,261 --> 00:56:53,001
the entire system needs to get adapted.
1289
00:56:53,001 --> 00:56:56,130
Being a democracy, we have trouble
getting in front of these things.
1290
00:56:56,130 --> 00:57:00,731
>> Peter Robinson: Okay, which brings me
to a few sort of last questions for you,
1291
00:57:00,731 --> 00:57:01,270
Mark.
1292
00:57:01,270 --> 00:57:05,864
And for the first couple let
me play devil's advocate.
1293
00:57:05,864 --> 00:57:10,740
You, Elon, Vivek, David Sacks,
you guys are all acting from
1294
00:57:10,740 --> 00:57:15,920
the highest motives, but
I'm playing devil's advocate here.
1295
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:20,320
You're moving very fast,
you're really moving fast.
1296
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,613
Those federal workers whose
jobs we wanna eliminate,
1297
00:57:23,613 --> 00:57:27,200
they all have mortgage payments,
they all have families.
1298
00:57:28,820 --> 00:57:33,004
All of this technology,
there are winners and losers.
1299
00:57:33,004 --> 00:57:37,940
I mean, I'm perfectly open to the argument
that over time, technology creates jobs.
1300
00:57:37,940 --> 00:57:42,461
But when Uber came along, taxi drivers
lost their jobs and now self driving
1301
00:57:42,461 --> 00:57:46,569
vehicles are the next wave and
Uber drivers are gonna be in trouble.
1302
00:57:46,569 --> 00:57:52,565
Okay, so all that said,
here's another brief video.
1303
00:57:52,565 --> 00:57:55,869
And this also comes from the interview
I did all those years ago with
1304
00:57:55,869 --> 00:57:56,848
Milton Friedman.
1305
00:57:56,848 --> 00:57:58,816
Listen to Milton Friedman.
1306
00:57:58,816 --> 00:58:02,138
Okay, Milton Friedman,
if you are made dictator for one day,
1307
00:58:02,138 --> 00:58:04,456
the next day the American government-
>> Milton Friedman: No,
1308
00:58:04,456 --> 00:58:06,192
I don't wanna be made dictator.
1309
00:58:06,192 --> 00:58:07,520
>> Peter Robinson: You wouldn't.
>> Milton Friedman: I don't believe in
1310
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:08,105
dictators.
1311
00:58:08,105 --> 00:58:10,118
>> Peter Robinson: Okay.
>> Milton Friedman: I believe we wanna
1312
00:58:10,118 --> 00:58:15,392
bring about change by the agreement for
the citizens.
1313
00:58:15,392 --> 00:58:17,171
I don't believe in arbitrary [INAUDIBLE].
1314
00:58:17,171 --> 00:58:17,912
>> Peter Robinson: Let
me put it this way then.
1315
00:58:17,912 --> 00:58:20,393
You're proposal-
>> Milton Friedman: If we can't persuade
1316
00:58:20,393 --> 00:58:23,720
the public that it's
desirable to do these things,
1317
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:28,120
we have no right to impose them
even if we had the power to do it.
1318
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,847
>> Peter Robinson: If we cannot persuade
our fellow citizens to support changes,
1319
00:58:31,847 --> 00:58:35,000
we have no right to make those changes.
1320
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,924
Are you and Elon and
Vivek and David Sacks,
1321
00:58:38,924 --> 00:58:46,118
are the Doge boys down with the political
program of engaging in persuasion and
1322
00:58:46,118 --> 00:58:53,894
bringing your fellow citizens with you day
by day by day as all of this goes forward?
1323
00:58:53,894 --> 00:58:55,891
>> Marc Andreessen: So I wanna check
myself out of this a little bit.
1324
00:58:55,891 --> 00:58:56,956
>> Peter Robinson: You're
an unpaid intern, I know.
1325
00:58:56,956 --> 00:58:59,524
>> Marc Andreessen: I appreciate you
keep trying to rope me in a position
1326
00:58:59,524 --> 00:59:01,974
of formal authority and
power here, but again,
1327
00:59:01,974 --> 00:59:04,726
I wanna stress both parts
of that unpaid and intern.
1328
00:59:04,726 --> 00:59:05,468
>> Peter Robinson: All right.
1329
00:59:05,468 --> 00:59:09,422
>> Marc Andreessen: So I'm not signing
up for what you're saying myself.
1330
00:59:09,422 --> 00:59:12,697
I will say, look, I think Elon is
a world class communicator, obviously.
1331
00:59:12,697 --> 00:59:14,394
Vivek is a world class communicator,
1332
00:59:14,394 --> 00:59:17,560
obviously, Trump is maybe the best
communicator of our time.
1333
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:21,011
And so they'll do, I'm highly confident
that the three of them, in whatever
1334
00:59:21,011 --> 00:59:24,488
combination, whatever form that they
decide they're gonna be able to do it.
1335
00:59:24,488 --> 00:59:26,797
Can I just go back to your thing though.
1336
00:59:26,797 --> 00:59:28,286
>> Peter Robinson: Of course.
>> Marc Andreessen: On technology change,
1337
00:59:28,286 --> 00:59:30,674
unemployment, because this is the thing.
1338
00:59:30,674 --> 00:59:32,094
So you probably know this,
1339
00:59:32,094 --> 00:59:36,249
there is actually a way to measure the
pace of technology change in the economy.
1340
00:59:36,249 --> 00:59:38,384
There's a way to measure it and
put a number on it.
1341
00:59:38,384 --> 00:59:40,280
With related to everything,
both the positives and
1342
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:42,618
negatives of technology change,
including job replacement.
1343
00:59:42,618 --> 00:59:43,940
And.
>> Peter Robinson: This is Paul Romer's?
1344
00:59:43,940 --> 00:59:45,080
>> Marc Andreessen: Productivity growth.
1345
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:45,877
>> Peter Robinson: Okay.
>> Marc Andreessen: Paul did a lot of
1346
00:59:45,877 --> 00:59:49,330
work around this, but the basic economic
concept is productivity growth.
1347
00:59:49,330 --> 00:59:49,899
>> Peter Robinson: All right.
>> Marc Andreessen: And
1348
00:59:49,899 --> 00:59:55,672
productivity growth, it's the quantitative
measure of technology change.
1349
00:59:55,672 --> 00:59:56,917
There's a few other things that lump in,
1350
00:59:56,917 --> 00:59:58,493
but fundamentally it's
about technology change.
1351
00:59:58,493 --> 01:00:02,178
And really what it is is it's a metric for
how quickly an economy,
1352
01:00:02,178 --> 01:00:06,296
year over year, is able to produce
more output with less input, right?
1353
01:00:06,296 --> 01:00:09,891
And you can go either way on that,
but fundamentally that's the lever.
1354
01:00:09,891 --> 01:00:12,569
And just the thought experiment,
if technology can't be used
1355
01:00:12,569 --> 01:00:15,308
to produce more output with less input,
what's the point?
1356
01:00:15,308 --> 01:00:18,901
Right, if it's not good at bringing down
costs and increasing free spending power
1357
01:00:18,901 --> 01:00:21,682
and increasing demand in the economy,
then what's the point?
1358
01:00:21,682 --> 01:00:23,820
Then it's just a game or something, right.
1359
01:00:23,820 --> 01:00:26,956
So productivity growth is the metric
that captures the actual impact.
1360
01:00:26,956 --> 01:00:30,042
And productivity growth, therefore,
is the metric that captures, for example,
1361
01:00:30,042 --> 01:00:31,481
the downstream impact on employment.
1362
01:00:31,481 --> 01:00:32,039
>> Peter Robinson: Okay.
>> Marc Andreessen: Either
1363
01:00:32,039 --> 01:00:32,604
for good or for bad.
1364
01:00:32,604 --> 01:00:35,435
>> Peter Robinson: Right.
>> Marc Andreessen: Another pop quiz.
1365
01:00:35,435 --> 01:00:38,942
If you look at the sweep of American
history and history of capitalism,
1366
01:00:38,942 --> 01:00:40,588
history of Western capitalism.
1367
01:00:40,588 --> 01:00:44,194
Have in the last 50 years, we've been
Living in an era of high productivity
1368
01:00:44,194 --> 01:00:48,089
growth, which is to say an area of furious
technological change and future shock.
1369
01:00:48,089 --> 01:00:51,232
And my God, look at all these amazing
things and what an impact they're having.
1370
01:00:51,232 --> 01:00:54,254
Or have we been living in an area actually
of historically low productivity growth
1371
01:00:54,254 --> 01:00:55,400
with very little progress?
1372
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:57,878
>> Peter Robinson: Our friend Peter Thiel
has persuaded me that it's the latter.
1373
01:00:57,878 --> 01:00:58,504
>> Marc Andreessen: It's the latter.
1374
01:00:58,504 --> 01:00:59,448
Well, it's for sure-
>> Peter Robinson: It is the latter.
1375
01:00:59,448 --> 01:01:00,720
>> Marc Andreessen: It's for sure
the latter because it's in the number,
1376
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:01,393
you can see it in the number.
1377
01:01:01,393 --> 01:01:02,185
>> Peter Robinson: It's demonstrable.
1378
01:01:02,185 --> 01:01:03,412
>> Marc Andreessen: It's demonstrable, and
1379
01:01:03,412 --> 01:01:07,439
specifically what happened is basically
between, there's a long backstory here.
1380
01:01:07,439 --> 01:01:10,735
But basically between in recent history,
between, call it 1920, in 1970.
1381
01:01:10,735 --> 01:01:15,040
That 50-year arc, productivity growth
throughout the economy moved much faster,
1382
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:16,680
was two or three times higher.
1383
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:20,727
And then basically starting around
the time I was born, right around 1971,
1384
01:01:20,727 --> 01:01:24,015
basically it took a permanent
downshift and it never recovered.
1385
01:01:24,015 --> 01:01:26,466
And it wobbles a little
bit during recessions,
1386
01:01:26,466 --> 01:01:29,468
it ticks up a little bit cuz
people get more efficient, but
1387
01:01:29,468 --> 01:01:33,160
it's been generationally low now for
two generations.
1388
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:34,110
>> Peter Robinson: So the whole game.
1389
01:01:34,110 --> 01:01:34,728
>> Marc Andreessen: Yeah.
1390
01:01:34,728 --> 01:01:37,972
>> Peter Robinson: Excuse me, this
comes to a question I was about to ask.
1391
01:01:37,972 --> 01:01:42,891
When Ronald Reagan, again of that morning,
again in America, when Ronald Reagan took
1392
01:01:42,891 --> 01:01:48,360
office, federal debt, the total federal
debt as a proportion of GDP was about 32%.
1393
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:55,894
Today, 126%, the whole game is going to be
getting productivity growth up, correct?
1394
01:01:55,894 --> 01:01:58,617
>> Marc Andreessen: Exactly, so you have
to get productivity growth up because
1395
01:01:58,617 --> 01:02:00,640
that's where economic growth comes from.
1396
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:02,700
And productivity growth is
what causes economic growth.
1397
01:02:02,700 --> 01:02:03,479
>> Peter Robinson: Right.
>> Marc Andreessen: The reason
1398
01:02:03,479 --> 01:02:05,872
productivity growth causes
economic growth is because if
1399
01:02:05,872 --> 01:02:09,383
you can generate more with less, then you
can take things today that cost $100 and
1400
01:02:09,383 --> 01:02:12,398
then you can get them instead for
$90, $80, $70, $60.
1401
01:02:12,398 --> 01:02:13,484
And then the consumer or
1402
01:02:13,484 --> 01:02:17,139
the business has additional spending power
that they can use to buy new things.
1403
01:02:17,139 --> 01:02:19,123
That is the mechanism of economic growth.
1404
01:02:19,123 --> 01:02:20,201
>> Peter Robinson: Right.
>> Marc Andreessen: That is the actual
1405
01:02:20,201 --> 01:02:23,206
mechanism for why economies grow or
whether they don't grow.
1406
01:02:23,206 --> 01:02:27,606
If productivity growth goes to zero,
there is no economic growth.
1407
01:02:27,606 --> 01:02:30,793
If productivity growth is high, you
will have lots of jobs transformations,
1408
01:02:30,793 --> 01:02:33,207
you will have lots of jobs being
created and destroyed, but
1409
01:02:33,207 --> 01:02:34,578
you will have a growing economy.
1410
01:02:34,578 --> 01:02:38,009
And you will have basically an economic
heyday in which there's opportunity
1411
01:02:38,009 --> 01:02:41,636
everywhere and people will look at it and
you see there have been times like this.
1412
01:02:41,636 --> 01:02:45,470
The mid-90s had a little bit of this, the
mid-80s, you remember when there's a surge
1413
01:02:45,470 --> 01:02:47,793
of economic growth,
everybody gets really cheerful.
1414
01:02:47,793 --> 01:02:50,084
Well, that's as a consequence
of productivity growth.
1415
01:02:50,084 --> 01:02:51,437
>> Peter Robinson: That
morning again in America,
1416
01:02:51,437 --> 01:02:54,543
what happened was that by 1983
the stock market started to recover and
1417
01:02:54,543 --> 01:02:57,748
by '84 the economy itself is starting
to grow and grow really briskly.
1418
01:02:57,748 --> 01:03:02,348
I think '84, '85, the number was up to
6% for something like eight months.
1419
01:03:02,348 --> 01:03:04,414
>> Marc Andreessen: So if you're careful-
>> Peter Robinson: People felt it.
1420
01:03:04,414 --> 01:03:06,074
>> Marc Andreessen: That's right, and
so if you care about the country and
1421
01:03:06,074 --> 01:03:08,286
if you care about the people of
the country, what you want is growth.
1422
01:03:08,286 --> 01:03:10,283
You want economic growth,
in order to get economic growth,
1423
01:03:10,283 --> 01:03:11,470
you need productivity growth.
1424
01:03:11,470 --> 01:03:14,368
Things are going to change, but you're
going to have the growth such that people
1425
01:03:14,368 --> 01:03:17,518
are optimistic and see lots of opportunity
for themselves and for their children.
1426
01:03:17,518 --> 01:03:23,566
The enemy is not technology-driven
unemployment, the enemy is no growth.
1427
01:03:23,566 --> 01:03:25,313
The enemy is to end up where the UK and
Germany and
1428
01:03:25,313 --> 01:03:28,198
Canada have worked themselves into,
which is no growth, cuz what happens?
1429
01:03:28,198 --> 01:03:30,948
And then you think about the translation
from economics to politics.
1430
01:03:30,948 --> 01:03:33,938
>> Peter Robinson: What happens in a-
They start ripping their countries apart.
1431
01:03:33,938 --> 01:03:35,154
>> Marc Andreessen: Zero sum politics.
1432
01:03:35,154 --> 01:03:37,383
If you have zero sum
economics with no growth,
1433
01:03:37,383 --> 01:03:39,218
you have to have zero sum politics.
1434
01:03:39,218 --> 01:03:40,092
Because the only way for
1435
01:03:40,092 --> 01:03:42,450
anybody to get anything is to
take it away from somebody else.
1436
01:03:42,450 --> 01:03:44,666
In a high growth environment,
you have positive sum economics,
1437
01:03:44,666 --> 01:03:46,207
which means you have
positive sum politics.
1438
01:03:46,207 --> 01:03:49,415
You have a sense of possibility and
opportunity [LAUGH] and awakening, and
1439
01:03:49,415 --> 01:03:50,977
growth, and excitement, right?
1440
01:03:50,977 --> 01:03:54,344
And people are, wow, this is fantastic,
and I can't believe all the opportunities
1441
01:03:54,344 --> 01:03:56,942
and I can't believe how fast my
standard of living is advancing.
1442
01:03:56,942 --> 01:03:59,060
And I can't believe the jobs
are opening up to my kids.
1443
01:03:59,060 --> 01:04:02,452
And so if If we got, this is where the
narrative on this goes so sideways, if we
1444
01:04:02,452 --> 01:04:06,163
got what people think is the apocalyptic
nightmare of rapid technological change,
1445
01:04:06,163 --> 01:04:08,117
which is to say rapid productivity growth.
1446
01:04:08,117 --> 01:04:10,143
We would have a boom economy
like you've never seen and
1447
01:04:10,143 --> 01:04:13,064
we would have people be the happiest
they've ever been in their entire lives.
1448
01:04:13,064 --> 01:04:15,161
That is precisely what
we should be going for.
1449
01:04:15,161 --> 01:04:20,043
And by the way, anybody who's listening
to this, who's concerned about either
1450
01:04:20,043 --> 01:04:23,879
left wing populism or
right wing populism, this is the answer.
1451
01:04:23,879 --> 01:04:27,577
This is how you defame populism,
the way you defame populism is you grow.
1452
01:04:27,577 --> 01:04:31,164
>> Peter Robinson: Okay, so
I'm gonna repeat the question that I asked
1453
01:04:31,164 --> 01:04:35,497
at the very beginning, but
this time a little more seriously.
1454
01:04:35,497 --> 01:04:40,689
As I said a moment ago, when Reagan
took office and worked those changes,
1455
01:04:40,689 --> 01:04:45,070
federal debt was only 26% of GDP,
and now it's 122%.
1456
01:04:45,070 --> 01:04:49,396
I correct myself, excuse me,
I think it was 32%, now it's 122%.
1457
01:04:49,396 --> 01:04:52,009
In 1980,
our adversary was the Soviet Union.
1458
01:04:52,009 --> 01:04:54,341
And the Soviet Union was bad and
dangerous.
1459
01:04:54,341 --> 01:04:56,081
It had nuclear weapons.
1460
01:04:56,081 --> 01:05:02,432
But its economy was essentially negligible
throughout the entire Cold War.
1461
01:05:02,432 --> 01:05:06,093
I looked this up the other day,
throughout almost the entire Cold War,
1462
01:05:06,093 --> 01:05:10,136
the number of Soviets who studied in
the United states was just 50,000.
1463
01:05:10,136 --> 01:05:14,494
China, there are 250,000 students,
1464
01:05:14,494 --> 01:05:19,976
Chinese nationals,
studying in this country right now.
1465
01:05:19,976 --> 01:05:25,930
Your friend Elon Musk sold 650,000
Teslas in China last year.
1466
01:05:25,930 --> 01:05:29,266
A single factory, it's really a city,
1467
01:05:29,266 --> 01:05:34,270
a single factory produced
almost all of the 218 million,
1468
01:05:34,270 --> 01:05:39,680
if I recall, iPhones that Apple
sold around the world last year.
1469
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:42,466
We can't live without China, in some way.
1470
01:05:42,466 --> 01:05:49,420
People will attack me for putting it that
baldly, but this is gonna be a trick.
1471
01:05:49,420 --> 01:05:52,606
In some ways, it's more formidable
than the Soviet Union was.
1472
01:05:52,606 --> 01:05:59,790
So I put it to you, we are in some ways in
worse shape, more polarized as a country.
1473
01:05:59,790 --> 01:06:02,966
The federal government has metastasized.
1474
01:06:02,966 --> 01:06:05,681
As you said, we're deeper in debt.
1475
01:06:05,681 --> 01:06:10,610
We're facing a more
formidable opponent in China.
1476
01:06:12,270 --> 01:06:14,221
Do you really believe we can pull it off?
1477
01:06:14,221 --> 01:06:16,968
Is there a chance for a national renewal?
1478
01:06:16,968 --> 01:06:18,146
>> Marc Andreessen: Well,
let me say first,
1479
01:06:18,146 --> 01:06:21,078
both those problems are even
worse [LAUGH] than you presented.
1480
01:06:21,078 --> 01:06:22,954
So, as you're probably aware,
1481
01:06:22,954 --> 01:06:27,250
the national debt is growing at a pace
of a trillion dollars per 100 days.
1482
01:06:28,430 --> 01:06:31,560
And so this is one of the things, the
problem has been building for a while, but
1483
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:32,509
these last four years,
1484
01:06:32,509 --> 01:06:35,322
whatever governors were there before
just got completely taken off.
1485
01:06:35,322 --> 01:06:38,406
And so, we've been spending money
like it's going out of fashion.
1486
01:06:38,406 --> 01:06:42,078
So, a trillion dollars every hundred days,
Thomas Massie, who's one of the only
1487
01:06:42,078 --> 01:06:45,765
libertarian members of Congress, he's
an MIT engineer, really brilliant guy.
1488
01:06:45,765 --> 01:06:50,394
And he made himself a lapel
debt clock counter, right?
1489
01:06:50,394 --> 01:06:53,448
And so, when you talk to,
when you talk to Thomas, it's worrying,
1490
01:06:53,448 --> 01:06:55,040
the increase in the national debt.
1491
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:59,043
Last time I talked to him, he said he
needs to re engineer it because we're at,
1492
01:06:59,043 --> 01:07:03,290
whatever, 37 trillion and we're adding
another trillion every 100 days.
1493
01:07:03,290 --> 01:07:05,263
And the pace of adding,
cuz of the compounding,
1494
01:07:05,263 --> 01:07:06,769
the pace of adding is accelerating.
1495
01:07:06,769 --> 01:07:08,506
So it's gonna be 90 days,
80 days, 70 days.
1496
01:07:08,506 --> 01:07:09,922
And so he says-
>> Peter Robinson: Interest payments now
1497
01:07:09,922 --> 01:07:11,066
exceed the Pentagon budget.
1498
01:07:11,066 --> 01:07:12,002
>> Marc Andreessen: Correct, exactly, and
1499
01:07:12,002 --> 01:07:13,704
there's no upper bound
on where they can go.
1500
01:07:13,704 --> 01:07:16,483
And of course, this is the classic
cycle that you can get into,
1501
01:07:16,483 --> 01:07:19,158
which is, the more that compounds,
the higher rates rise,
1502
01:07:19,158 --> 01:07:21,530
the more you're starving the real economy,
right?
1503
01:07:22,790 --> 01:07:27,074
And then you get in this cascade where, as
various economies discover repeatedly in
1504
01:07:27,074 --> 01:07:29,486
the world, and
we've discovered in the past,
1505
01:07:29,486 --> 01:07:33,430
you get in these spirals that are really
bad on interest rates and inflation.
1506
01:07:33,430 --> 01:07:37,671
So Thomas's challenge, I think, over
the holidays was to re-engineer this clock
1507
01:07:37,671 --> 01:07:42,030
to add another digit so that it's gonna
keep working when it hits 100 trillion.
1508
01:07:42,030 --> 01:07:43,111
So that train is moving.
1509
01:07:43,111 --> 01:07:47,346
And we could have a long conversation
about the legislative process has really
1510
01:07:47,346 --> 01:07:51,839
broken down with these giant omnibus kind
of bills that get dumped on people's desk
1511
01:07:51,839 --> 01:07:54,228
the day before they're supposed to leave.
1512
01:07:54,228 --> 01:07:58,485
1500 pages with 12 hours to read and
process that you have to vote on or
1513
01:07:58,485 --> 01:08:02,899
literally, they tell you you're killing
sick children and all this stuff.
1514
01:08:02,899 --> 01:08:08,300
And so, this is a very big, speaking of
the DOGE, this is a very big problem.
1515
01:08:08,300 --> 01:08:12,098
And then look, the China thing,
the problem is compounding.
1516
01:08:12,098 --> 01:08:13,879
And I'll just tell you where
I'm worried right now,
1517
01:08:13,879 --> 01:08:15,108
where the problem is compounding.
1518
01:08:15,108 --> 01:08:19,601
So you mentioned the, sort of,
iPhone assembly, and that's a big deal.
1519
01:08:19,601 --> 01:08:23,885
But basically, there's three industries
that sort of follow phones that
1520
01:08:23,885 --> 01:08:25,405
are kicking in right now.
1521
01:08:25,405 --> 01:08:26,794
So, one is drones.
1522
01:08:26,794 --> 01:08:28,780
And it's sort of in
a bizarre turn of events,
1523
01:08:28,780 --> 01:08:31,974
the Chinese basically own the global
drone market for all, basically,
1524
01:08:31,974 --> 01:08:33,986
the consumer drones, all the cheap drones.
1525
01:08:33,986 --> 01:08:37,516
Which by the way, numerically then are the
drones that all the militarys also use in
1526
01:08:37,516 --> 01:08:38,584
overwhelming numbers.
1527
01:08:38,584 --> 01:08:42,369
And something over 90% of all drones used
by the US military are made in China.
1528
01:08:43,709 --> 01:08:45,649
And the thing is,
it's not just a company, they're-
1529
01:08:45,649 --> 01:08:46,307
>> Peter Robinson: Could you get to
1530
01:08:46,307 --> 01:08:47,533
the cheery part, please?
1531
01:08:47,533 --> 01:08:49,726
>> Marc Andreessen: No, no, it gets worse,
it gets worse, it gets worse,
1532
01:08:49,726 --> 01:08:50,915
it gets worse before it gets.
1533
01:08:50,915 --> 01:08:54,674
So the drone thing is not just a company,
it's an entire ecosystem.
1534
01:08:54,674 --> 01:08:55,762
It's all of the componentry.
1535
01:08:55,762 --> 01:08:59,738
We have a drone company that's been trying
to compete with the Chinese company.
1536
01:08:59,738 --> 01:09:03,144
Number one, the Biden FAA has been
trying to kill us this entire time,
1537
01:09:03,144 --> 01:09:07,073
trying to do all kinds of things to make
sure that American drone companies can't
1538
01:09:07,073 --> 01:09:08,893
succeed as part of their war on tech.
1539
01:09:08,893 --> 01:09:12,323
It's literally just another in the long
list of ways that they've been just trying
1540
01:09:12,323 --> 01:09:13,770
to absolutely kill us.
1541
01:09:13,770 --> 01:09:15,240
But two is, China has figured this out.
1542
01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:18,429
And so, the US has been sanctioning
AI chips going to China,
1543
01:09:18,429 --> 01:09:22,494
China is now sanctioning, they sanction
our drone company for the battery,
1544
01:09:22,494 --> 01:09:25,116
[LAUGH] cuz the battery is made in China,
right?
1545
01:09:25,116 --> 01:09:28,201
And so they have like significant
leverage, not just for the drones, but for
1546
01:09:28,201 --> 01:09:29,254
the entire supply chain.
1547
01:09:29,254 --> 01:09:30,300
>> Peter Robinson: They
have cards to play.
1548
01:09:30,300 --> 01:09:30,813
>> Marc Andreessen: They
have cards to play.
1549
01:09:30,813 --> 01:09:35,268
By the way, the drone supply chain is
very analogous to the car supply chain.
1550
01:09:35,268 --> 01:09:40,165
A self driving electric car is very
similar to a drone, or for that matter,
1551
01:09:40,165 --> 01:09:41,112
to an iPhone.
1552
01:09:41,112 --> 01:09:44,366
It's an electrical mechanical device, but
it's a lot of the same kind of battery
1553
01:09:44,366 --> 01:09:46,740
technology, chip technology,
sensor technology.
1554
01:09:46,740 --> 01:09:51,106
So they now have their version of what the
Germans used to have, which is sort of,
1555
01:09:51,106 --> 01:09:55,433
the thousands of mid market companies that
make all the parts that go into a car.
1556
01:09:55,433 --> 01:09:58,875
But the German ecosystem is still making
them for old internal combustion cars,
1557
01:09:58,875 --> 01:10:02,258
the Chinese ecosystem is making them for
electric cars and self driving cars.
1558
01:10:02,258 --> 01:10:06,720
And of course, that means the new Chinese
cars that are coming out are really good
1559
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:08,963
and they have a giant advantage on cost.
1560
01:10:08,963 --> 01:10:12,808
And they are starting to bring to market
cars that are equivalent in quality to
1561
01:10:12,808 --> 01:10:15,310
western cars at a third or
a fourth of price.
1562
01:10:15,310 --> 01:10:16,960
So that's coming.
1563
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:24,110
And then the big one that follows phones,
drones, and cars, logically, is robots.
1564
01:10:24,110 --> 01:10:28,240
And so, we are on the verge of the actual
robotics revolution that we've all seen in
1565
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:30,194
science fiction stories forever-
>> Peter Robinson: And
1566
01:10:30,194 --> 01:10:31,933
the Chinese are ahead of us there?
1567
01:10:31,933 --> 01:10:35,190
>> Marc Andreessen: 100%, now,
we have the leading, this is important,
1568
01:10:35,190 --> 01:10:38,590
we have the leading software,like
we have the leading R&D.
1569
01:10:38,590 --> 01:10:39,919
Like, we have the smartest,
1570
01:10:39,919 --> 01:10:42,782
I'm convinced we have like
the smartest robotics AI people.
1571
01:10:42,782 --> 01:10:43,717
We have a bunch of companies-
>> Peter Robinson: We still
1572
01:10:43,717 --> 01:10:44,829
have the best people?
1573
01:10:44,829 --> 01:10:46,467
>> Marc Andreessen: We have
the best people, specifically for
1574
01:10:46,467 --> 01:10:47,649
the design of the systems, but
1575
01:10:47,649 --> 01:10:50,534
we don't have anything resembling
the manufacturing capability at all.
1576
01:10:50,534 --> 01:10:54,175
And again, it's not just whether a company
can build a robot, it's whether you have
1577
01:10:54,175 --> 01:10:57,654
the thousands of companies that make
all the components that go into robots.
1578
01:10:57,654 --> 01:11:02,878
An example, you've seen these videos
of the Boston Dynamics robot dog.
1579
01:11:02,878 --> 01:11:03,766
>> Peter Robinson: Yes.
1580
01:11:03,766 --> 01:11:06,295
>> Marc Andreessen: And you can, they're
not a very aggressive company going to
1581
01:11:06,295 --> 01:11:08,485
market, those are like $50,000 products.
1582
01:11:08,485 --> 01:11:10,150
You can go buy one.
1583
01:11:10,150 --> 01:11:13,299
China has an equivalent product that,
by the way,
1584
01:11:13,299 --> 01:11:17,110
looks extremely similar and
behaves extremely similar, and
1585
01:11:17,110 --> 01:11:21,742
has, among its capabilities,
it can climb stairs, it can do back flips.
1586
01:11:21,742 --> 01:11:23,598
It can stand on its hind legs.
1587
01:11:23,598 --> 01:11:25,684
It can climb and descend inclines.
1588
01:11:25,684 --> 01:11:27,190
You can put wheels on it.
1589
01:11:27,190 --> 01:11:28,985
It can shoot at 30 miles an hour.
1590
01:11:28,985 --> 01:11:31,885
It can lock the wheels and
climb stairs with the wheels on.
1591
01:11:31,885 --> 01:11:34,996
By the way, it also is hooked
into a large language model, so
1592
01:11:34,996 --> 01:11:37,628
it talks to you in a very nice,
a very plummy voice.
1593
01:11:37,628 --> 01:11:39,692
It will teach you quantum physics.
1594
01:11:39,692 --> 01:11:41,348
Full voice control.
1595
01:11:41,348 --> 01:11:44,805
Price point, $1,500, right?
1596
01:11:44,805 --> 01:11:47,575
>> Peter Robinson: Cheer me up,
cheer me up.
1597
01:11:47,575 --> 01:11:49,847
>> Marc Andreessen: So this is all coming.
1598
01:11:49,847 --> 01:11:52,356
So step one is clarity, [LAUGH] right?
1599
01:11:52,356 --> 01:11:55,635
And then, by the way, everything we've
just been talking about is also upstream
1600
01:11:55,635 --> 01:11:57,540
from all the military applications, right?
1601
01:11:57,540 --> 01:12:00,613
Cuz it's that same supply chain that then
goes into everything we talked about in
1602
01:12:00,613 --> 01:12:01,209
the military.
1603
01:12:01,209 --> 01:12:02,272
And so, I just say,
1604
01:12:02,272 --> 01:12:05,346
this is a very fundamental
thing that we have to confront.
1605
01:12:05,346 --> 01:12:09,218
And having this very fragmented approach
where we on Tuesdays hate the domestic
1606
01:12:09,218 --> 01:12:12,004
American technology industry and
are trying to kill it.
1607
01:12:12,004 --> 01:12:16,603
And on Thursdays think we're gonna
somehow develop some sort of, competitive
1608
01:12:16,603 --> 01:12:22,000
response to China on cars or on weapons in
the future, there has been no coherence.
1609
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:24,585
One of my favorite questions
to ask in Washington is, okay,
1610
01:12:24,585 --> 01:12:27,086
what's the whole of government
strategy on technology?
1611
01:12:27,086 --> 01:12:28,464
Of course, zero.
1612
01:12:28,464 --> 01:12:30,585
What's the whole of
government strategy on China?
1613
01:12:30,585 --> 01:12:31,823
Zero, right?
1614
01:12:31,823 --> 01:12:34,933
It turns out the president matters.
1615
01:12:34,933 --> 01:12:38,290
And so, yes, this is precisely
why this all matters so much.
1616
01:12:38,290 --> 01:12:39,886
This has to be directly confronted.
1617
01:12:39,886 --> 01:12:43,626
We and our companies are enthusiastic
at signing up to solve these problems.
1618
01:12:43,626 --> 01:12:44,385
>> Peter Robinson: And the president-
>> Marc Andreessen: We
1619
01:12:44,385 --> 01:12:46,434
need a government that wants
to work with us on this.
1620
01:12:46,434 --> 01:12:48,395
>> Peter Robinson: Donald John Trump
is alive to all of this?
1621
01:12:48,395 --> 01:12:49,890
>> Marc Andreessen: Yes,
100%, no question.
1622
01:12:49,890 --> 01:12:51,301
He is, and then his people are.
1623
01:12:51,301 --> 01:12:53,746
And they, yes, this stuff,
they understand.
1624
01:12:53,746 --> 01:12:57,766
>> Peter Robinson: Mark, would you close
our conversation by reading this excerpt
1625
01:12:57,766 --> 01:13:00,973
from your essay,
the Techno Optimist Manifesto?
1626
01:13:00,973 --> 01:13:03,200
>> Marc Andreessen: Love to.
1627
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:05,296
We believe in the romance of technology,
of industry.
1628
01:13:05,296 --> 01:13:06,140
The romance.
1629
01:13:06,140 --> 01:13:09,754
The eros of the train, the car,
the electric light, the skyscraper,
1630
01:13:09,754 --> 01:13:13,200
the microchip, the neural network,
the rocket, the split atom.
1631
01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:14,455
We believe in adventure.
1632
01:13:14,455 --> 01:13:17,742
Undertaking the hero's journey,
rebelling against the status quo,
1633
01:13:17,742 --> 01:13:20,426
mapping uncharted territory,
conquering dragons, and
1634
01:13:20,426 --> 01:13:22,523
bringing home the spoils for
our community.
1635
01:13:22,523 --> 01:13:25,537
We believe that we have been and
will always be the masters of technology,
1636
01:13:25,537 --> 01:13:26,852
not mastered by technology.
1637
01:13:26,852 --> 01:13:28,634
This is really key point today.
1638
01:13:28,634 --> 01:13:31,534
Victim mentality is a curse in every
domain of life, including in our
1639
01:13:31,534 --> 01:13:34,732
relationship with technology,
both unnecessary and self-defeating.
1640
01:13:34,732 --> 01:13:36,684
We are not victims, we are conquerors.
1641
01:13:36,684 --> 01:13:39,900
We believe America and
her allies should be strong and not weak.
1642
01:13:39,900 --> 01:13:43,457
Economic, cultural, and military strength
flow from technological strength.
1643
01:13:43,457 --> 01:13:47,012
A technologically strong America is
a force for good in a dangerous world.
1644
01:13:47,012 --> 01:13:48,415
We believe in greatness.
1645
01:13:48,415 --> 01:13:50,965
>> Peter Robinson: Marc Andreessen,
thank you very much.
1646
01:13:50,965 --> 01:13:52,324
>> Marc Andreessen: Peter, a pleasure.
1647
01:13:52,324 --> 01:13:54,770
>> Peter Robinson: For
the Hoover Institution and Fox Nation,
1648
01:13:54,770 --> 01:13:56,031
I'm Peter Robinson.
1649
01:13:56,031 --> 01:13:57,241
Thank you for joining us.
1650
01:13:57,241 --> 01:13:57,741
[MUSIC]