Rwy'n credu bod yna mlynedd o ddweud i'r Llywodraeth am y gwahaniaethau gwahanol hwnnw ac mae rhai o'u gwasanaethau eu hunain, cyn i'r rhai o'r ymdrechion sy'n cael eu cynhyrchu, yn sylweddoli bod yna gwahaniaethau ac y byddai'n anodd iawn. Felly dwi ddim yn siŵr iawn nawr pam byddwn i'n cynhyrchu hyn i'r rheoliwyr a pam byddwn i'n gobeithio y byddan nhw'n gwneud newid. Ac mae rhai rhan o fi sy'n dweud, maen nhw'n gwybod beth maen nhw'n ei wneud. Felly os ydw i'n cynhyrchu adnoddau, fel, wyt ti'n gwybod, adnoddau disybiliadau trwy'r adnodd adnodd gweithredu neu rhannu pobl oherwydd nad ydyn nhw'n cymryd cysylltiadau gwahanol o sefyllfaoedd y mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw wneud i ddefnyddio gwaith i gael eu hyrwyddoedd. Os ydw i'n cynhyrchu adnoddau bod hynny'n darparu i iechyd meddwl pobl, rwy'n credu bod y Llywodraeth yn gwybod hynny ac mae hynny'n rhan o'u dylunio yn y cyntaf. Mae'n fel bod rwy'n darparu iddyn nhw fod wedi cyrraedd yr hyn roedden nhw'n gofyn amdano ac mae hynny wedi newid i mi. Nid yw'n golygu nad ydw i'n gallu darparu adnodd, ond mae'n fwy fel beth yw'r cyfnod o hyn, rwy'n credu. Storiau o Ubertherapy yw sefydliad o chwech sgwrs gyda therapeutau, cymdeithasolwyr, cymdeithaswyr trafnidiaethol a champanwyr tech cynydduol am sefydliad o chwech sgwrs. Rwy'n Elisabeth Cotton, athrawydd o Ubertherapy, y newydd busnes o iechyd meddwl, ac mae fy mhartner yn Lynda Michaels, adroddiadwr y gweithgaredd psychotherapyddol yng Nghymru. Mae'n amlwg i ddatblygu sgwrs ddefnyddiol am sut i sefydlu cefnogaeth mwy bwysig. Iawn, wych. Wel, rwy'n hapus iawn i gael y tri o chi yma gyda ni heddiw, ac rwy'n meddwl a allwn ni ddechrau drwy ddysgu ychydig am eich bodau o waith ymchwil a beth sydd wedi'i ddod i chi i'r ymdrechion ymddygiadol, bwysig ac ymddiriedolaethol o ymchwil. China, a fyddwch chi'n hoffi dechrau a siarad â ni am eich gwaith a'r prosiect ymddygiadol? Iawn, diolch, Linda. Iawn, gallaf ddechrau. Efallai y byddwn i'n mynd â chi ar... Gallwch chi ddod o'r ffordd y byddwn i'n ei wneud, ac yna byddai'n gwneud mwy o syniad, dwi ddim yn gwybod. Felly ie, rwyf wedi ymweld â'r system iechyd ymddygiol o fod yn oed yn iaith ifanc iawn. Rwy'n gwneud rhwng fy hun a'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn fy nheulu sy'n cael diagnosi schizofrenia. Ac felly rwy'n meddwl mai roeddwn i bob amser wedi cael rhyw oedran o fod yn oed yn iaith ifanc y byddai rhywbeth ychydig, rhywbeth ddim yn eithaf iawn am y system honno, ond ddim yn anodd gael ffordd o deall hynny. Ac yna ddechreuais i Manchester i fynd i'r brifysgol a dod ymlaen at y gweithgaredd Cymdeithas Cymdeithasol Cymdeithasol Cymdeithasol ac yna ddechreuais i'w gwrthwynebu a ddysgu o bobl sy'n clywed cymdeithas, sy'n gweld ffisiynau, sydd wedi profi fersiynau gwahanol o wirionedd, nad ydyn nhw'n ei weld fel fathologiaeth sydd angen ei hyrwyddo gan iechyd ymddygiol, neu, chi'n gwybod, mae rhai bobl yn siŵr yn cymryd adnoddau, ond dydyn nhw ddim yn ymweld â gwneud ymddygiadau fel ymddygiad sylfaenol, sy'n beth roeddwn i bob amser wedi mynd ymlaen gyda'r aelodau fy nheulu, ac roedd e'n gwneud ymddygiadau gwahanol i mi, byddaf yn dweud, ac felly roedd e'n gwneud i mi eisiau ymddygiadau gweithio ymlaen a dysgu mwy ynghylch iechyd ymddygiadol, yn enwedig o bobl sydd wedi prifysgol. Felly roeddwn i'n gweithio am ychydig o ddiweddarach ac yna roeddwn i'n gwneud ymddygiad sy'n canolbwyntio ar gyfer iechyd ymddygiadol, ac un o'r pethau rydw i wedi'i wneud fel rhan o'r ymddygiad yw edrych ar y cymdeithas ar gyfer iechyd ymddygiadol gwleidyddol. Felly, yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw, yw cymdeithas sydd, i mi, yn ymddangos ac yn ysgrifennu dealliadau iechyd ymddygiadol gwleidyddol, yn ymddygiadol iawn gan ymddygiadau iechyd ymddygiadol ac ymddygiadol i'r cyfnod gwleidyddol, yn enwedig yn y cyfnod lle roedd ychydig o boblogaeth a ddiddorol, ac roeddwn i eisiau gwybod sut oedd pobl yn ymddangos, neu'n gwneud syniad, neu'n ymddygiadu hynny, ac roeddwn i'n dewis ei wneud hynny yng Nghymru, dim ond oherwydd roeddwn i wedi gweithio yng Nghymru ac roeddwn i wedi llawer o gysylltiadau gyda phobl ddiddorol a ddiddorol sy'n eu hyfforddi ac roeddwn i'n gweld y cyfnod yma a'r ddiddorol sy'n eu hyfforddi yma, ac un o'r pethau, trwy'r gwaith y gwnes i ei wneud, roedd rhywbeth sydd wedi digwydd am ddau blynedd, a oedd bod llawer o ddiddorol yng Nghymru yn gwneud eu bywydau yn ymddygiadol yn ymwneud â drwy ymddygiadau cyffredinol, ymddygiadau patenio, a'r busnes agri fwyaf, cymorth agresif o ddiddorol, ac yn y blynyddoedd, roedd rhai o'r ddiddorol yn mynd i ddiddorol oherwydd y sefyllfaoedd hwnnw o ddiddorol. Ac roedd hynny'n ddiddorol i'w ddysgu, ond pan ddechreuais gwneud mwy o ddiddorol i hynny, roeddwn i'n sylweddoli bod rhai o'r ymddygiadau yr un peth, felly'r ymddygiadau Syngenta, sy'n patenio ddiddorol, fel nad oedd y ddiddorol yn gallu achub ddiddorol arall a'u hyfforddi nhw eto, roedd yn rhaid iddyn nhw gofalu newydd bob blynyddoedd a gwneud ymddygiad agresif hwnnw o ddiddorol. Roedd yr ymddygiadau hynny hefyd yn cymryd cymorth fel cymdeithas iechyd bywyd, cymdeithasau ymddygiadau ymddygiadau. Ac roeddwn i'n meddwl, iawn, wow, mae hyn yn hyn. Roedd llawer o hynny yno roeddwn i'n teimlo'n myfyrwyr, rwy'n meddwl. Ac felly roeddwn i'n dod yn ôl i'r Deyrnas Unedig, yn dal i wneud y gwaith hwnnw, ond mewn gwirionedd, ac i'r cynyddu gwirioneddol o ymddygiadau ymddygiadau ymddygiadau ym 2008 yng Nghymru. Ac rydyn ni'n gallu mynd i mewn i, rwy'n meddwl bod cyfnod cyhoeddus o'r deyrnas ymddygiadol yn ei fod yn rhyfedd sy'n dod yn ôl i'r 2008 a'r ymddygiadau ymddygiadol. Mae rhai bobl, yn enwedig bobl ddiddorol a bobl o ffyrdd yng Nghymru, sydd wedi byw mewn cyfnodau fel ymddygiad am ddigwyddiadau. Ond roedd rhywbeth am dod yn ôl i'r cyfnod hwnnw a'r hollbwys ymddygiadol ymddygiadol am llawer o bobl ddiddorol sy'n dod, yn aml gan ymddygiad, oherwydd y math o ddiddorol o'r hyn sydd wedi'i ennill ymddygiad ymddygiadol, sy'n ffyrdd bwysig iawn o ddysgrifio'r mathau o ffyrdd sy'n cael eu targedu ar bobl ddiddorol. Felly, dehumanisio asesiadau ddigwyddiadol, gysylltiadau ddigwyddiadol ac ymddygiadau o ddiddorol. Ac roedd y pethau hyn yn llawer o bobl. Ac rwy'n meddwl roeddwn i'n ddiddorol yn ddiddorol o fod wedi'i ymwneud â neu ar y ffyrdd o bobl ddiddorol, rydych chi'n gwybod, yn sefydlu ac ymddygiad gyffredin roeddwn i'n gweld sut oedd pobl ddiddorol a theuluoedd ddigwyddiadol sy'n gwneud llawer o'r gwaith i wneud ymddygiad ymddygiad hwn o ddiddorol a sut roedd ymddygiad ddigwyddiadol yn llawer o bobl. Felly grwpiau fel pobl ddigwyddiadol ar gyfer Cwt, DPAC a John Pring o'r gwasanaeth newydd ddigwyddiadol, gwasanaeth ymddygiadol ymddygiadol. Mae llawer o'r bobl hynny. Ac felly roedd hynny roedd hynny a'r cyfathrebu i ymddiriedolaeth yn ymddygiadol pobl ddigwyddiadol mewn cymdeithas a chyfathrebu ac ymddygiad sy'n yn rhoi i mi eisiau datblygu beth sydd yn wneud y prosiect ymddygiadol sydd wedi cael ei chreu mewn pŵer gyda phobl ddigwyddiadol a theuluoedd ymddygiadol ac roeddwn i eisiau i roeddwn i roeddwn i'n credu roeddwn i eisiau gallwn siarad mwy am hyn efallai yn y ddiwedd mwy mwy na darlunio anerchiadau neu darlunio anerchiadau ac roedd hynny'n rhan fawr ac mae'n rhan fawr o'r gwaith roedden ni eisiau adeiladu rhywbeth a oedd yn o'ch gwybod o'ch gwybod ddefnyddiol i bobl ddigwyddiadol a theuluoedd ymddygiadol mewn cyfathrebu mewn cyfathrebu maen nhw'n maen nhw'n maen nhw'n maen nhw'n maen nhw'n maen nhw'n maen nhw'n Cody Cody Cody Cody Cody Cody Cody yn yn ar ar ar ar ar ar aros ar aros ar aros 清楚 cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto cinto llythyr Pyran yn yn yn yn yn arulos ar ar aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros aros arsenic arsenic arsenic arsenic arsenic arsenic arsenic arsenic assistant arsenic arsenic arsonc arsenic arsenic arsenic arsonc arsenic arsonc arsenic Okay, well, really fascinating and the the links with your personal history and all the cultures and groups of people that you've brought together. Really, really fascinating. Thank you, China. And, Emily, I'm wondering if you can talk about your work at Healing Justice London and whatever else you'd like to share. Yeah, thank you. And thanks for that China. It's so nice to hear. And yeah, the context of your work. And yeah, just so happy to be working with China. She's been so inspiring doing this work around suicide and other types of death and vulnerability. So yeah, mine's kind of goes a bit into my kind of personal history as well. So I work as a work-related suicide and social justice researcher at Healing Justice London with China and as part of the Welcome Project with China and Sarah. So my work is focused a lot on evidence around suicide. And so I first got into research and suicide during my master's in gender and sexuality studies at SOAS, where we will learn about masculinities. And I first heard about male suicide crisis. And which basically reports kind of men as dying at significantly high rates of suicide and prioritises them in suicide prevention. And this really sparked my interest because my dad died by suicide when I was little. And I just remember when I learned about male suicide crisis years later, just reflecting on how inadequate it seemed as an explanation for his kind of life and death and how much it seemed to flatten him out. So he had lost his job. He was struggling with his mental health and he had been having, you know, relationship problems, which were all really common to how male suicide crisis has been understood. But he was also mixed race. He grew up in a working class migrant family. And there didn't seem to be much space for that in narratives around male suicide prevention, which focus mostly on individual men's health largely kind of out of context. And so this really inspired my interest in thinking about the evidence around suicide knowledge. And that led me to suicide statistics, which are really key in shaping the crisis around male suicide and shaping kind of what we know about suicide more generally. So when I started my PhD, I explored how suicide stats are made and discovered that they've been historically based on only the axes of age and sex, hence how we have statistics kind of over-representing middle-aged men. And this is despite the men being understood to be dying at high rates of suicide often being universalised as white in suicide prevention. So that was without any kind of evidence around race, which has been a much more recent development. So this really grounds my approach to research in suicide from social justice perspectives with attention to the evidence around suicide knowledge and how I suppose representations of a white male suicide crisis really shape our understandings of and responses to suicidality and to unlovability. And then just kind of bringing it to more recently in a project I worked on kind of just before this, I was analysing interview data about suicide recovery in kind of brackets and noticed how much of suicide prevention was focused on returning, again, predominantly men to work and how this is so much shaped by the evidence of male suicide and stats linking male suicide with unemployment. So I became really interested in how male suicide prevention foregrounds work and productivity and how else we might respond to suicide beyond these kind of ableist and capitalist logics and how we might even make space for rest, which is kind of curiously really missing in these approaches. And then this brings me to my current role, working on work-related suicide and social justice. And I think in this context, there's something really interesting about centring work and thinking about suicide in the possibilities for resisting some of these ableist logics of male suicide prevention. And yeah, so that's kind of me. Well, thank you. And yeah, so important what you're talking about, rest and mourning, which are really missing in this whole thing. And also, yeah, your personal connections to this work. I think you're directly countering that flattening of each human story. Yeah, Sarah, can you please share with us about your research and your work? Sure, yeah. And I'm just reminding myself how lucky I am to work with China and Emily and how inspiring they are. And, you know, they bring such knowledge and such rich life experience. And it's it's it's reminded me not that I needed reminding how great they both are. And so my background is slightly unusual as as a suicide researcher in that I come from a French studies background. And for many years, I have worked on the French workplace and on work and on labor, really using the workplace as as a prism for understanding what's happening more widely within French society, within French culture. Work as such an incredibly interesting microcosm of human relationships that can tell us so much. So for years and years, I've been focusing on on the French labor context, if you like. And then I think it was yet it was in the summer of 2009 when the French media began reporting on a suicide crisis in France. Telecom. So France Telecom is one of France's largest companies. It was once a state organization. At the time, it was employed about one hundred thousand workers, you know, this massive telecoms giant. And the newspapers started reporting on a suicide crisis, a sort of series of suicides that were taking place in different branches of the company up and down the metropolitan France. And I remember being completely blindsided by this and really struggling to understand what was going on. I really struggled just to understand how this could be happening. And to the extent that, you know, we all know work can be a very difficult place. But from my background, I've always understood work in a positive sense as being a space where you you can get a foothold in the world, where you build your identity, a sense of purpose, a sense of belonging. Like work is a really important social network and fabric. And, you know, I just couldn't understand how things had had gone so wrong for these people and how working conditions that they were experiencing were so unbearable that they had been pushed to these extremes. And I was just really, I suppose, struggling to understand that the link between organizational changes, the workplace and the individual decision to end one's life and trying to understand the connection between the two. And so I went on to write a book on suicide across three large French corporations, because the thing was, it wasn't limited to France Telecom. And there were suicides occurring within quite a wide number of French, large French corporations. And I focused on three. These suicides were taking place at a specific moment in time and they weren't sort of random or sporadic. In each case, the company was undergoing a major restructuring process. They were cutting jobs. They were changing the way they were doing things. They were privatizing. And what was distinctive in the French context and also interesting is that suicidal individuals left documentation explaining what they were doing. So there were letters, there were suicide notes, there were audio recordings. In some cases, suicidal individuals left a portfolio of material. So, you know, in these cases, they wanted to explain and communicate what was happening. In some cases, they communicated with trade union representatives or they went directly to the media. So there was this sort of interesting body of documentation that I wanted to look at. And so my perspective was to focus very firmly on what I call suicide voices. The perspectives of suicidal individuals themselves and what they said in these letters and what they said about work and what they said about working life becoming unbearable for them. And to work from those narratives and then, I suppose, take the lens outwards to look at what was happening within French companies at the time and try in some way to connect the two. Yeah, and I suppose that is the journey I've taken and why I became interested in suicide, specifically in the context of work. I've since done work in the UK and I have been involved in campaigns to try to push for progressive change, for recognition, for justice in this area. So campaigns led by trade union, trade union hazards campaign. But I've also worked very closely with bereaved families and I've worked on, you know, supporting their claims for justice. And yeah, I'm going to stop there. Well, thank you. And fascinating to, yeah, think about the context of the workplace, the family, where all this change is happening and giving voice to the people who have suffered amidst that. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm going to, I've already had my eyes watering already. So because my next question sort of could go in a lot of different directions, which is about this documentation of the evidence and the experiences around around suicide. And so I want I want to ask you a question about about both the importance of and the risks around the documentation of these conditions of injustice, because I think sometimes it can feel particularly when you're in a campaigning group working with lived experience. It can feel like a big, huge chunk of time and resources, and often people find it quite difficult to sort of prioritise that. And it's also often quite difficult to do in a way that doesn't flatten the experiences of real people, you know. And of course, the sort of big, you know, one of the big issues, whether it's a corporation or a government structure, is the intentional attrition by design. So the intention not to capture the real data and the real harms, the evidencing of harms. So this is an open question. Whoever wants to answer first is really about what's the value of documenting these conditions of injustice, but also what the risks are. I think I've had a real personal shift on how I feel about this over the last few years. So if you'd have asked me this three years ago, I would probably have said something quite different. And that means that I can. Yeah, well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you what I'm going to say and you can see what you think. So I think this, the documenting of harms is hugely important. And certainly with deaths by welfare, one of the things that we created was like a timeline, but really it's like an archive or a database of the context of harms and of the way it was killing people. So that's naming people who have been killed, who have died. It's also, you know, naming and just finding the evidence, right, which is often kind of publicly available, but well hidden at the same time. So in things like coroner's reports and prevention of future deaths reports and hidden away in like reports by the Department for Work and Pensions who administer welfare in the UK in very banal sounding reports and, you know, memos and you can dig and find all of this kinds of evidence. And I think bringing that together alongside people's lived experience and documenting that is hugely important. And I think that it also speaks to a piece that's always been incredibly important to any sort of resistance movements and to kind of building solidarity, which is about, you know, creating space for sort of processing harm that's been done to us all and recognising and naming that for what it is, which is often forms of violence, whether that's state violence or violence that comes from, you know, corporations, employers. You know, and seeing the connections in those kinds of violence and starting to recognise our own complicities in it. The way we sometimes reproduce these really harmful narratives of like that work defines our worth and all of this stuff that we say to ourselves and we're accidentally reproducing in our relationships with other people all the time. So being able to do that, documenting, if it's part of that process of naming, I think is, and recognition is hugely important. I suppose that has led me a little bit more, and I say this after years of having done research that documents harm, so, you know, bear with me, is that I think we have to be, or I would like to be in future, a lot more intentional about what am I documenting? If I'm going to do research that documents harms and conditions of inequality, you know, for what is the purpose of that? What am I doing it in service of, I suppose? And I think a lot of research I've done in the past, and that I can see others doing, and that we're kind of told to do, I think, in some ways as researchers, is great at the documentation bit, but I'm not quite sure what the intentional, like, what the purpose of it is for. And I suppose, you know, loads of people have pushed back about this. I'm thinking like Eve Took, who's a brilliant Indigenous scholar, warns us about kind of damage-centred research and what that, you know, what it reproduces for certain communities to just constantly be named as being harmed and damaged by certain conditions. So I suppose for me, something that's shifted in doing deaths by welfare is like, what do we think we'll do once we've got the evidence and we've documented the harms? So who is the evidence for? And what do we think we're going to use it to do? And I suppose I have a reticence now about thinking we're going to somehow present it to policy makers, or, you know, people in the government, and that they're going to see that evidence, and it's going to kind of change their minds.
[Note: Transcript covers the first portion of this episode. Full chunked transcription coming soon.]
[Note: Transcript covers the first portion of this episode. Full chunked transcription coming soon.]
