Tyler Zach: So the first question, there's actually two questions that are somewhat related, ⁓ Suzanne. The first question comes from Alan from Greenwood, Delaware. And he said, ⁓ what would you say are a few ways to introduce the Enneagram to those who might be resistant to exploring it, especially if they are from a Christian tradition.
Tyler: Welcome to Typish, an Ennegram podcast where we explore how your personality shows up in all of life. I'm your host, Tyler Zach and in each episode I connect you with leading experts on how your personality impacts your relationships, mental health, spirituality, and everything between. ⁓ these eight weeks in episodes 13 through 20, I'll be unlocking some exclusive interviews for you from my Typish summits over the past few years. If this episode encouraged you, be sure to follow the show, leave a five-star rating, and write a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast. Now, before you go, take a moment to pause and reflect on this. What is one pattern in your life that you've become more aware of recently? And what is one small step you can take this week toward becoming a healthier version of yourself? Remember, as Suzanne reminded us today,
Tyler Zach: That looks with suspicion on helpful tools like the Enneagram. And then related to that question is ⁓ Kim sent a question and saying, How do you respond to the latest criticism of the Enneagram from Jackie Hill Perry? Many churches have removed ⁓ opportunity to even have an Enneagram discussion ⁓ of stances like that.
Tyler: You'll get to hear from an Enneagram pioneer, an Enneagram godmother, an Episcopal priest, an interpersonal neurobiologist, a magazine editor-in-chief, a Hollywood actrist, and even one of the bachelors himself. What could all of these guests possibly have in common? Well, each of them have been profoundly transformed by this tool that we love called the Enneagram. In today's episode, I'm sharing a live QA I hosted. The Enneagram isn't about figuring everyone else out, it's about doing your own work. Growth is a lifelong journey, and every small step toward greater self awareness is a step toward greater freedom. With the Ennegram godmother herself, Suzanne Stabile, during one of our typish summits, formerly called Enea Summits. Some of the things we cover include how to respond to conservative Christian criticism of the Enneagram, whether certain types are more prone to narcissism or other mental health diagnoses, how trauma affects your type, how to identify your type without a test, and what healthy growth looks like for twos, sixes, nines, and so on. If you've ever wished you could be a fly in the wall.
Suzanne Stabile: ⁓ I I would start by saying I think it's okay if some people don't want to explore the Enneagram. You know, my response to that is okay. It's just one spiritual tool. It's just one. And it's actually better with others. And so I don't ever try to defend the Enneagram. And I don't encourage people to, because if people
Tyler: And listen in as Suzanne shares her trademark wisdom. This episode is the next best thing. You can stay up to date with all that Suzanne is doing at Suzannestabile.com. There you'll find a link to her best selling Ennegram books, courses, in-person cohorts, speaking events, and so much more. Now, without further ado, let's dive into the QA.
Suzanne Stabile: on the opposite side of the conversation have already made up their mind and they've got all the stuff they're talking about, then you end up in a conversation where you can't win because decisions have already been made. On the other hand, I think one of the best ways to talk about the Enneagram rather than talking about numbers or personality types is to talk about the fact that it's just nine ways of seeing. That's what it is. It's nine ways of seeing the world. And along with being nine ways of seeing the world, it's also an opportunity to do things better. It's an opportunity to be a better human being because unlike other personality oper understanding opportunities like Myers Briggs and ⁓ all the others, Berkman, all of those, it it's An opportunity that you can learn from and do something with at the same time. And being able to learn and do in order to be more whole is essentially the goal. I sometimes believe that the skepticism and the work around trying to remove it from our conversations is a lack of understanding that there's nothing spiritual or biblical about the Enneagram. It is spiritual wisdom, but it's not it's not church, it's not ⁓ religious in any way. So the the words that I would use are it's not religious, it doesn't claim to be religious, and the Enneagram Is known in every faith belief, which explains ⁓ perhaps why some people are afraid of it. I also honestly, and and this makes me very sad, but I think it's true. I think there are people who are really confused about the difference between an enneagram, the symbol for an enneagram and a pentagram. And that's just a lack of understanding. And enneagram came from looking at the symbol and recognizing that the Greek words are nine points. And I continue to say it's just nine ways of seeing the world. And I encourage people to to read a little, to look at it one time. And then if they don't like it, if it's not helpful to them, that's okay. In a one-on-one conversation, the best way I know to get somebody interested in the enneagram is to hand them a copy of The Road Back to You. And ask them to read about your number with conversations that's something like, you know, I this book really explains me in ways that I've struggled to explain myself to you. So ⁓ here's about me and how I see the world. Would you just read just this one part? It's just because I want you to know me. And then I really would like to have my book back. And what happens once people recognize that what's in the road back to you. Is not threatening in any way and it perfectly describes you, then the curiosity they have about themselves kind of takes over because we all want to know about ourselves and we all want to understand ourselves. And finally, I would say that I think there are people who just don't want to know their number. And they might know enough to know it and not want anybody else to know what it is because they're not healthy in their number. And that's okay too. I would encourage in churches and in social circles that you not talk about the Enneagram using that word or using numbers. There's nothing that you need to say ⁓ about what you're learning or what you're experiencing or how it's affecting your life that you can't say without saying that you're a five, six, seven, nine, one, whatever it is. And with the word anyagram, you don't need that language to talk about. things that you're learning about yourself. And that sets the table for people to ask you about something rather than you trying to convince them about something. And the convinced part I would give up on. So my response to anybody who is publicly taking on the Enneagram is ⁓ okay. I I wouldn't come on a a podcast and argue with anybody about the value of what we offer and ⁓ There is no philosophy that doesn't suggest that self knowledge is essential if you want to know who you are in relationship to God. So that's a lot of talking. I hope it helps.
Tyler Zach: thank you. That's very helpful, Suzanne. Sure. ⁓ the the next question comes from Gary he is a social six with a seven wing. And he said, Are there any types more susceptible to what we would call classic narcissism or overt narcissism?
Suzanne Stabile: probably, but I'm not gonna talk about that without talking about the types that are also susceptible to other Well defined and well understood. struggles. it is most likely that threes would be identified as struggling with narcissism or labeled as a narcissist by somebody else. Now I'm gonna say all the others in a minute, but I'm gonna get a little bit preachy. And the preachy thing I'm gonna say is all of a sudden ⁓ he's a narcissist, she's a narcissist, they're both narcissists. That language is in the culture everywhere. And I don't know why. I I have no idea. People are talking about something they don't know anything about. And they're just labeling people as a narcissist because they don't like them or because they think they're selfish or because they hurt them or whatever. So I think we need to not do that. yeah, that I'm done preaching, I think. I'll I'll probably preach again later, but that's I'm done for now. And ⁓ I would also say, along with that, threes are. likely misidentified as narcissists or threes may struggle with narcissism more than other numbers. I believe that ones are frequently in chatter around ⁓ misidentified and misrepresented as being obsessive compulsive. And there's no doubt that fours are being diagnosed and misunderstood and told that they're either bipolar or bipolar type two. Fives, ⁓ particularly introverted fives, are often told by someone that they're probably on the spectrum. And ⁓ I think introverted fives are particularly told that they might have Ashbergers. So that's a problem. sevens, I know ADHD is now the ⁓ disorder that's supposed to cover the whole range. But I'm going to talk about the way it used to be because that's helpful to me in relationship to the Enneagram. And that is I think sevens are often misdiagnosed as ADHD, while nines are often misdiagnosed as having ADD. And eights, of course, are misdiagnosed as being oppositional defiant.
Tyler Zach: Wow. That that is so helpful, Suzanne. wow, I'm just just taking that in. ⁓ so ⁓ the next question is Gabriel said, How can helping show up for an Enneagram Two Does it have to be cleaning and meeting those kids' ⁓ needs, or it be more related to helping with information or problem solving? So in other words, she's asking if a helper can look different than what most people think of as as helping.
Suzanne Stabile: I would suggest that what she's asking about is the difference in an average two and a healthy two, or a two that's in excess in his or her number and ⁓ healthy two. All of those things that ⁓ have to do with cleaning and children and cooking and all those things. In many church denominations, we have ⁓ lots of women. who ⁓ mis identify as twos who are really sixes are another number. And that's and particularly in my generation. ⁓ and that's because we We're seen and the expectation is that we will do all of those things. Younger women who are twos don't see themselves that way and they don't ⁓ Give into that being the only definition of giving. So here is what I would suggest. We all have a different skill set. if you're a two, ⁓ the challenge is for you to make sure that you've answered what I think are three really important questions before you help anywhere with anyone. And I ⁓ them to myself. Sometimes, maybe most of the time, I sure forget sometimes. So here are the questions. Why am I moving toward this other person? And it wouldn't matter what help you're going to offer. The question first is, why are you going to offer help to this other person? The second question is, what, if anything, do I expect to get in return? And the third question is, does the other person want my help? And If you answer those three questions, then the arena of where you might offer help that would be received graciously and with joy is the world. As long as you're doing it for the right reason, the other person wants your help. And it doesn't matter what kind of offering you're making. It could be offering to teach, it could be Offering to work in leadership positions. There there are so so so many. So ⁓ that's my answer. Don't limit yourself to what you consider being helpful as a two. Frequently, Frequently, you'll be happier and a better giver if you're doing what is yours to do. And then there's the punchline. The question I ask myself when I wake up every day and ⁓ while I'm drinking coffee, I ask myself, what is mine to do today? And when as a two, I'm able to answer the what is mine to do question. Then I'm able to do better with my priorities because. for everybody, but seems to be a bigger problem for us. Every yes that you say means you have to say no somewhere else. And so as important as is it is sorry, as important as it is for me to say yes in the right places, it's equally important for me to be aware of what that means I have to say no to. ⁓ it I'm reminded that there is ⁓ misdiagnosis for sixes And that's anxiety disorder. And honestly, there's so much anxiety right now. And and be clear with all of the numbers and all of the things that I shared. Be very clear that in any of those numbers, it could be ⁓ Those those diagnoses could be with any number, not just the numbers that I
Tyler Zach: We'll put very, very helpful, Suzanne. ⁓ Terry attended a workshop with you in Richmond this past year. And ⁓ she asks, ⁓ there are many ways to share the Enneagram wisdom. In your experience, which format do you find the most beneficial for transformational personal growth? ⁓ and do you enjoy one format over the other? Like coaching, workshops, cohorts, retreats.
Suzanne Stabile: Here at the Mica Center, we advertise this phenomenal space by saying the Mica Center, a place for solitary work that can't be done alone. So that's the headline for what I'm about to say. If you don't have somebody to hold your feet to the fire, it meaning if you don't have some accountability, if you aren't in conversation with someone else so that you understand that other people are also struggling, if if those things are not in happening for you, then studying the Enneagram by just reading or by yourself is not going to be particularly helpful. I ⁓ have had a lot of people through the years who have attended my workshops and been in my cohorts who are Enneagram coaches. And I I'm all for that. I don't I don't have anything negative to say about that. The one concern that I would put on the table is that you have to work on yourself in relationships. That's where you learn about who you are and how you are in the world and what you get wrong and what you get right. And I worry sometimes that coaching ends up being about how you deal with other people more than how you deal with yourself. And this is your work to do. And other people have to do their work. And I I can be. really manipulative with the enne gram And so can anybody else. And I work very hard not to. And I think other people have to do the same. The other thing that concerns me about coaching and about it is there seems to be a lot of assumption about what numbers other people are. And the motivation your Ennea Gram number is determined by motivation, not by behavior. And I believe we very seldom know the motivation of the people in our lives, particularly the people we work with. So those are some concerns. ⁓ I'm not a fan of trendy Enneagram, meaning I absolutely don't believe that you can figure out your number with any of these ⁓ things that I occasionally see in social media. I can't tell you how many questions we get that are. Irrelevant because they're so off the charts. ⁓ Joel shared one with me this morning that ⁓ essentially said, can you be ⁓ can you be a seven slash three and a four slash nine? Because that's what the test said. Well, that's an example of the kind of questions that we get everywhere we go. So I used to be able to stand up and just start teaching whatever content I was going to teach when I was teaching on the road. Now I start with a QA and I do it because there's so much bad information. in the culture about the Enneagram, bad meaning inaccurate. And ⁓ I have to clean all that up so that everybody in the room can learn. I hope I answered the question. I I think I overanswered as I tend to do.
Tyler Zach: No, the extra stuff you're sharing is so helpful, Suzanne. Thank you so much.
Suzanne Stabile: Did I answer the question? Okay. Thanks. If I don't if I ever get started and I don't answer the question, then just tell me and I'll I will.
Tyler Zach: Yes. No, we just are enjoying having our coffee here. ⁓ just listening to you, Suzanne. So you can just keep talking for however long you want.
Suzanne Stabile: ⁓ don't say that.
Tyler Zach: ⁓ the next question comes from it's kind of along the lines of what you're talking about. It's ⁓ Tamara ⁓ she's a public school teacher working bedside with kids at a children's hospital in Los Angeles. And she said, Can someone be a type four without all the emotional intensity that a typical ⁓ typically characterizes ⁓ type four? So it kind of goes off of what you just said about behavior and motivation.
Suzanne Stabile: Yes, one can, and one in her position particularly can. There's there's no way that she could do what she's doing and ⁓ give in to the ⁓ excess that fours sometime kind of enjoy. She can't do that and do what she's doing. So hats off to her for what she's doing. It's ⁓ Really helpful that the stress number for her is a two because between those two numbers, the children will get exquisite help. And ⁓ She didn't ask this question, but I I would encourage her to listen to our daughter Joey and her husband Billy. ⁓ you can find them at Enneagram Parents. They're doing some really good teaching that helps parents figure out what stance their children are in. And I believe in her position, she may be able to figure out what stance the children are in that she's working with. And that would be ⁓ I think. Very helpful.
Tyler Zach: Very good. Jimmy ⁓ from Atlanta, Georgia. And he said, I would like to develop the conversational skill of asking the right questions to help a person discover the Enneagram type they most identify with. Again, this is going off of what you said before earlier. ⁓ Are there any suggestions For doing Enneagram exploration through personal conversation rather than just telling someone to take an assessment.
Suzanne Stabile: Well, I'm ⁓ I don't want you to ever tell them to go do the inventory or the test. It's wrong a high percentage of the time. And then people ⁓ try to live into the number that the test or the indicator says they are. If you ⁓ get a copy of The Path Between Us and the study guide for that book, that's my second book, you'll find all the questions you need in the chapters in that book.
Tyler Zach: Okay, great. ⁓ Kim is a female pastor and a social nine. ⁓ she loves the Enneagram and works with it often. And she asks, How can I balance helping others ⁓ then also my helping myself, which is lacking, as you know, being a two, ⁓ Suzanne.
Suzanne Stabile: And she's a nine, right?
Tyler Zach: Social nine. Got it.
Suzanne Stabile: ⁓ You need to work on your lost childhood messages. That you I don't like that language. I'm starting over. I would encourage you work with your childhood messages. ⁓ ⁓ if you don't know that teaching, that's Riso and Hudson teaching. And let me introduce it so that everybody knows what we're talking about. They did a good bit of work early on when they started doing enneagram work around unconscious childhood messages and lost childhood messages. And the definition of the unconscious childhood message is that it's a message that you just didn't get in childhood. And it doesn't mean it wasn't offered, it means you didn't get it. And the lost childhood message is a message you needed that you didn't get and that you're not aware of it being offered. So let me ⁓ tell you what those are for nines, and then I'll talk about why that's so important for your number. The unconscious childhood message for nines is it's not okay to assert yourself. And the lost childhood message for nines is your presence matters. Self-care is very hard to get to if you don't think you can assert yourself, because saying no falls under asserting yourself. And if you don't think your presence matters, because you get lost in believing that your presence matters here. So you want to really give to them. And then you give too much and ⁓ all the things happen. So I really would encourage all people who are asking these kinds of questions to do some work around enneagram and discernment. And enneagram and discernment is a process. It's a process of understanding yourself and looking at what you say yes to that you end up wishing you weren't doing. And it's a process of learning and understanding that your presence matters. And if you don't take care of yourself, you won't be able to do the things where your presence matters. I also think there's an intuitive thing in nines where they try to Undo ⁓ sloth, which is their passion. And that reminds me of something I want to go back and say about something else. But sloth means being unaffected by life, a desire to be unaffected by life. It doesn't have anything to do with laziness, doesn't have anything to do with not doing. It's just a desire to be unaffected by life. And once you wrap your arms around that. And you look at the things that you're trying to avoid affecting you, then you'll find out where you need discernment. And from there you'll find out how the messages play into that. And then I think all that'll be very helpful.
Tyler Zach: That's very helpful, I'm sure, to her, and then also to us listening in ⁓ for the nines that know, which ⁓ we have a lot nine, ⁓ amazing nine friends. ⁓ Jenny from Indiana says, how do you handle frustration and resentment when your partner doesn't care about their emotional or spiritual ⁓ health?
Suzanne Stabile: First of all, ⁓ over my twenty-six years now, I think, I can't tell you how many times I've h been asked that question. So you're not alone. This is an individual journey for everybody. And If you've never heard me teach in person or heard Joe and I teach or heard him teach, you may not know that we say every time we teach, everybody needs a therapist and everybody needs a spiritual director. And going back to the person who asked about discernment, ⁓ if you have a spiritual director, that's the place where you learn better discernment tools. If ⁓ in this case you are pushing somebody, then be mindful of the fact that there are numbers who totally, totally resist being pushed. So ⁓ I happen to be married to one. If you've never heard me talk about Joe, then I ⁓ say to everybody publicly and everywhere else, he is the best human being I've ever known, ever. I just don't know a better person. And he's stubborn because he's a nine on the Enneagram. And if you push nines, then they just dig in and aren't going to do it. On the other hand, it's costly in a relationship where one person is growing and maturing and experiencing change and some transformation, and the other person isn't. And I would suggest that you deal with your resentment and your frustration with the therapist and that you then invite your partner into therapy with you because. Relationships where both people are not headed in the same direction need help to get both people on board. And I'm sorry. I know it's hard, really hard to be growing and changing and to be in relationship with and love someone who's not interested. But you can't make them interested by pushing.
Tyler Zach: Peg who is from Council Bluffs, ⁓ Iowa, near me. I actually know Peg. ⁓ And ⁓ she said, How can women in ministry ⁓ leadership be heard without being labeled ⁓ as a negative part of a type? Because They're ex voicing a dissenting opinion. ⁓ this really resonates with me personally because ⁓ my as a somebody who's been in ministry for 18 years, ⁓ my views on women in ministry have changed ⁓ primarily because of the Bible, ⁓ having a different hermeneutical approach to the Bible than I was taught, but also just the Ennea gram has been really helpful for me to see how God has has wired ⁓ women So can you offer encouragement or support or guidance to those Peg's ⁓ position.
Suzanne Stabile: ⁓ I can sure offer support and I can for sure offer compassion and care and I can share the frustration and maybe I can be helpful. I I know that's not too encouraging, but it's honest. I don't there's some things in life that I just don't understand. In the United Methodist Church, my husband's a United Methodist pastor. And ⁓ We were the first to ordain women, and yet I can name very few women for you who are in ministry in our denomination who are serving large or significant according to the cultural understanding of ⁓ church churches. It's I I just don't get it. Here's what I think is true. I think we are ⁓ women in ministry, not me, are ⁓ somehow considered as late to the table. And I there seems to be this overarching thing in the churches where I've worked where this is a problem of ⁓ yeah, but we already have all this history here and we already did all these things and we've already we already know kind of how we're gonna do this. And you weren't here for that. So my best offer is ask questions, don't make statements, ask hard questions. And if that doesn't work for you, then I would suggest that you go to the lead pastor or the senior pastor. I don't know what language they use where you are ⁓ How can I be heard in my position in our church and on our team? Because I feel like I have some good things to say. And I've thought a lot about how to approach everybody to find a platform for saying them. And I I really need some guidance. So can you can you help me share my voice? And can you help me understand why it's such a challenge? And once you do that, then you flipped the challenge and it's now on him. And I don't mean that in a mean-spirited way. I mean that in once that's done, then the other person has to struggle, not you. And if the answer is, gosh, I know that's a problem and I don't really know how we should fix it, then I think you say, I realize I'm just kind of throwing this out today unexpected. So could we schedule an appointment for two weeks from today? And that'll give you time to think about it. And I'll be sure to come with some of my ideas what we might do.
Tyler Zach: ⁓ Victoria wrote in the chat, she's a social seven. She said, are there types that you consider a difficult pairing for marriage? ⁓ are there types that do really well ⁓ with each other? I know I've gotten this question before and it's always in people's mind like, did I marry the wrong type? ⁓ is it true that some types ⁓ better and others ⁓ more prone to conflict? What can you speak to that, Suzanne? Sure.
Suzanne Stabile: ⁓ the answer is this. ⁓ gonna, I don't know if you can see me, not. Maybe you don't need to, but if you can see my hand, we can this hand. Let's try this one. ⁓ Where we are in Ennea gram work, there's healthy, ⁓ and that's where we hang out most of the time. The real goal is to hang out in the high side of average and hoping that you can wake work your way up some in healthy. Healthy, average, unhealthy, excess in your number, and then pathology. And we're not talking about pathology. I only do that with therapists. But what we will talk about is the this reality that we live in average space. It doesn't matter what two numbers we put together, if you're doing your what I call your work, if you're trying to be healthy, and if the goal is for each of you to be as healthy as you can be, then you don't have to worry about any gram numbers. They're not that important. Their difference then becomes kind of an advantage. rather than a disadvantage when you're both healthy. And so the goal for you is to be as healthy as you can be and continue to do your work. And I would say that ⁓ if you do that, it's going to be difficult for you to be in relationship with any of the nine numbers if they aren't committed to the same kind of work and self awareness and self knowledge and ⁓ identified goals for transformation that you have.
Tyler Zach: Thank you, Suzanne. Elke ⁓ is tuning in from Australia. ⁓ ⁓ she is also a type nine. And said that she often picks up the emotions of those around her. And how do I grow to a place of being able to have compassion for others' moods without merging with them and losing my own joy?
Suzanne Stabile: So that's a great question. ⁓ Joel's in the room with me. I think from Australia, we get lots of questions from nines. I think everybody's really laid back. ⁓ ⁓ okay. there's a difference in participation and merging.
Tyler Zach: Observation.
Suzanne Stabile: And It's not helpful to do that nine thing when the moods of other people are affecting you, of merging with them. ⁓ well, I might as well just go with that. You can, however, participate in the relationship by saying, I care about you, whatever the relationship is, but I don't feel that way. And I would be happy to have a conversation about that. And here's why I don't feel that way. And here's why that's kind of a disconnect for me. So if we name what we're afraid of, if if that's on the table, then the relationship is always helped by that. That always makes things better. And what nines are afraid of in relationships is disconnection and fragmentation. And so the reason they merge is to avoid those two things. And You can participate without merging and be a part of a collective solution rather than an either-or solution. So what you want to walk away with is both my feeling and your feeling, while different, are valid. And nines can say your reaction and your response to your feeling is so big. I'm trying to find room for mine.
Tyler Zach: Yeah, that participation comment is very helpful. Participation versus merging, very helpful for for type nines. ⁓ Michelle is from Brandon, Manitoba, Canada. ⁓ And ⁓ took your Enneagram journey course, ⁓ and she question is ⁓ coming from a type six. ⁓ She said, and this this will wet people's appetite for your teaching on stances if they've never heard you teach on stances and repress centers. Like this is very, very helpful ⁓ teaching from you. So this might ⁓ prime the pump a little bit for people, but she said, I'm thinking dominant in the head triad as a six and thinking repressed in the compliance stance. How can my thinking be more productive as a type six?
Suzanne Stabile: That's such a good question. It's hard to be three, six, nine in this stance work and have your dominant and repressed centers be the same. So I'm just tipping my hat to how hard it is. Productive thinking is the goal, and the way to get there, I think. First of all, you've taken step one by saying this is really hard for me. I would encourage you to journal. for everybody else, six is ⁓ scan the high the h horizon for danger. When they see danger or the potential for danger, then they make a plan and they plan for the worst thing that could happen. And then they vigilantly are prepared and they wait. And a high percentage of the time the thing doesn't happen. What I want you to journal about is the thing and then whether or not it happened. And do that for two or three weeks at a time. And then go back and check and estimate how much time you gave to thinking about a plan for the thing that didn't happen. And once you do that, then you'll be kind of unhappy about the time that you're wasting using your wonderful brain for planning for things that aren't going to happen. That all has to do with anxiety. So while fear is the passion for sixes, anxiety is a better word because sixes, sixes are worried about possible future events. So the second thing I would suggest. Is that you recognize that the gift that you have in our stance, I'm in the same stance you are, is that our orientation to time is the present moment. And what you need to do is keep refocusing, not on what's out there that could happen, but on what's right in front of you. And you happen to be put together in a way that you will be able to do that. And what's right in front of you is the thing. It it's the thing that you can. affect and that you can do something about if you give that your energy instead of concern about possible future events. We are just starting to talk about our August event and Joel and I are so excited about it we're we can't quit talking about it. We're texting each other about it, which we generally don't do. And ⁓ well one of the things we're going to talk about is that you You gotta be you you can't control how you take stuff in, but you can control what you take in. And so as a six, you can learn to refocus. You can you can take a deep breath, you can use prayer beads and get that rhythm in your life and carry them in your pocket, and you can just start praying the beads or land on one that you know is one that you need to be thinking about rather than. Letting your imagination start with if that happens, then I don't know what I'm gonna do about this and this and this and this. So part of productive thinking is choice. Now, here's the word I'm using with myself because I am not a productive thinker either. And I've started labeling my non-productive thinking as lazy thinking. I just I'm a lazy thinker. And ones, twos, and sixes are lazy thinkers. And lazy thinking takes up too much space in my one wild and precious life. And I'm working really hard on it. And so one of the things I do when I start thinking and let letting all the stuff go that goes, then I ask myself: is there any reason for this thinking? Is this lazy thinking? And if it's lazy thinking, I say this to myself. If it's lazy thinking, I'm not going to give into it.
Tyler Zach: Suzanne, I loved hearing you say that you st you still have work to do.
Suzanne Stabile: ⁓ my gosh.
Tyler Zach: And that's so good because you've been doing this for so long. And I know that in the decades to come that I'm gonna have to continue to be doing the work with my feelings as a type three. And ⁓ so I just appreciate you your humility ⁓ in sharing that.
Suzanne Stabile: One of things I say when I start to teach a stance workshop, I open with, this is work for a lifetime. You'll never finish.
Tyler Zach: Amen. Well, we let's let's do one more question and then I'll let you give any final thoughts ⁓ or say anything you want to say here at at the close. ⁓ but I like this question. It's from Susan, and she said, How does trauma and early childhood affect finding your type? And then I would just add to that, have how have you seen trauma, past trauma leading people to mistype? So can you speak to that?
Suzanne Stabile: I have to say this this is not my experience, but I ⁓ I had a lot of ⁓ healthy people around me and a lot of good therapy. So I'm adopted at birth, and that's trauma. I was a foreign exchange student when I was 16, and I was sexually abused by the men in the family that I lived with as an exchange student, and that's trauma. And coming back from the event in Europe, ⁓ it I repressed all that to the point that it took a number of years, ⁓ a lot of years, for that to bubble back to the surface. And then my dad was a doc and he found me a really great therapist and I got good therapy then. And having said that, I understand the reality of of what I'm about to teach. Your number is well honed by the time you're five. I have said, and I'm going to continue to say, because I really believe it's true, that we are genetically predisposed to be a certain number. I'm not a geneticist. I can't teach you about how that works. All I have to rely on is frankly the fact that here in the Mica Center, ⁓ I used to do an apprentice program where people came four times a year for three years. I now do several cohorts. Where I have people for a year and they come four times for a long weekend. And I've learned a lot from the people in the room. Much of what I've learned, I learned right here when I was supposedly teaching, and they were learning, and they were teaching me. And In this healthy, average, unhealthy excess in your number and pathology, trauma causes us to ⁓ intuitively operate from excess in our number. And that's when you're doing all of the most unhealthy things that you do. And that is the place where. We stay, those of us who have experienced trauma for such a long time, that the difference in children who experience trauma and children who don't in their Enneagram number is that it just takes longer for children who have experienced trauma to work their way up from excess through unhealthy and into average behavior. And longer could mean years. It just takes longer. And I find it very comforting that trauma doesn't cause your Enneagram number to change. Because if it did, that would erase hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years of Enneagram wisdom. And that would be very confusing. The other thing you have to know is if you're gonna deal with trauma, you have to know what your stress number is. And so if you learned your number. In a know your number workshop or something where it's taught orally, I would encourage you to go back and listen to your stress number being taught orally. And and in that you recognize behavior that you used then that it's been hard for you to let go of as you've matured and gotten healthier and healthier because that somehow was your way of getting through. If you hear me teach, ⁓ About that, you will hear me say that in terms of stress and security, you cannot take care of yourself without the number that you go to in stress. You have to have it. And so when you experience trauma, you have to look at the stress number and you have to look at what it looks like to be in excess in your number to know where you were coming from and the climb that is to be healthy in your number. I hope that's helpful.
Tyler Zach: That's so helpful. ⁓ thank you so much for sharing that. So we're at time now. And I just want to say as Julie said, you know, thank you. ⁓ Victoria said thank you so much for your great perspective today. ⁓ Annelle said, Thank you so much for sharing your vulnerability. ⁓ Michelle said you so much for speaking to my Sixness today and unproductive thinking. That was helpful. ⁓ Kelly said thank you for enabling us to have this ⁓ special time with you. So yeah, thank you so much for just giving us an hour of your day today to spend with us. We really appreciate it.
Suzanne Stabile: love to teach answering questions. It's my favorite way to teach. So I would suggest that maybe the gift is all mine. Thank you for showing up. Thank you for asking good questions. Thank you for learning the Enneagram. And you know, for anybody who's doing this work, we're we're all in it together to try to make the world a better place. So thank you for your contribution to that.
Tyler: Welcome to Typish, an Ennegram podcast where we explore how your personality shows up in all of life. I'm your host, Tyler Zach and in each episode I connect you with leading experts on how your personality impacts your relationships, mental health, spirituality, and everything between. ⁓ these eight weeks in episodes 13 through 20, I'll be unlocking some exclusive interviews for you from my Typish summits over the past few years. If this episode encouraged you, be sure to follow the show, leave a five-star rating, and write a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast. Now, before you go, take a moment to pause and reflect on this. What is one pattern in your life that you've become more aware of recently? And what is one small step you can take this week toward becoming a healthier version of yourself? Remember, as Suzanne reminded us today,
Tyler Zach: That looks with suspicion on helpful tools like the Enneagram. And then related to that question is ⁓ Kim sent a question and saying, How do you respond to the latest criticism of the Enneagram from Jackie Hill Perry? Many churches have removed ⁓ opportunity to even have an Enneagram discussion ⁓ of stances like that.
Tyler: You'll get to hear from an Enneagram pioneer, an Enneagram godmother, an Episcopal priest, an interpersonal neurobiologist, a magazine editor-in-chief, a Hollywood actrist, and even one of the bachelors himself. What could all of these guests possibly have in common? Well, each of them have been profoundly transformed by this tool that we love called the Enneagram. In today's episode, I'm sharing a live QA I hosted. The Enneagram isn't about figuring everyone else out, it's about doing your own work. Growth is a lifelong journey, and every small step toward greater self awareness is a step toward greater freedom. With the Ennegram godmother herself, Suzanne Stabile, during one of our typish summits, formerly called Enea Summits. Some of the things we cover include how to respond to conservative Christian criticism of the Enneagram, whether certain types are more prone to narcissism or other mental health diagnoses, how trauma affects your type, how to identify your type without a test, and what healthy growth looks like for twos, sixes, nines, and so on. If you've ever wished you could be a fly in the wall.
Suzanne Stabile: ⁓ I I would start by saying I think it's okay if some people don't want to explore the Enneagram. You know, my response to that is okay. It's just one spiritual tool. It's just one. And it's actually better with others. And so I don't ever try to defend the Enneagram. And I don't encourage people to, because if people
Tyler: And listen in as Suzanne shares her trademark wisdom. This episode is the next best thing. You can stay up to date with all that Suzanne is doing at Suzannestabile.com. There you'll find a link to her best selling Ennegram books, courses, in-person cohorts, speaking events, and so much more. Now, without further ado, let's dive into the QA.
Suzanne Stabile: on the opposite side of the conversation have already made up their mind and they've got all the stuff they're talking about, then you end up in a conversation where you can't win because decisions have already been made. On the other hand, I think one of the best ways to talk about the Enneagram rather than talking about numbers or personality types is to talk about the fact that it's just nine ways of seeing. That's what it is. It's nine ways of seeing the world. And along with being nine ways of seeing the world, it's also an opportunity to do things better. It's an opportunity to be a better human being because unlike other personality oper understanding opportunities like Myers Briggs and ⁓ all the others, Berkman, all of those, it it's An opportunity that you can learn from and do something with at the same time. And being able to learn and do in order to be more whole is essentially the goal. I sometimes believe that the skepticism and the work around trying to remove it from our conversations is a lack of understanding that there's nothing spiritual or biblical about the Enneagram. It is spiritual wisdom, but it's not it's not church, it's not ⁓ religious in any way. So the the words that I would use are it's not religious, it doesn't claim to be religious, and the Enneagram Is known in every faith belief, which explains ⁓ perhaps why some people are afraid of it. I also honestly, and and this makes me very sad, but I think it's true. I think there are people who are really confused about the difference between an enneagram, the symbol for an enneagram and a pentagram. And that's just a lack of understanding. And enneagram came from looking at the symbol and recognizing that the Greek words are nine points. And I continue to say it's just nine ways of seeing the world. And I encourage people to to read a little, to look at it one time. And then if they don't like it, if it's not helpful to them, that's okay. In a one-on-one conversation, the best way I know to get somebody interested in the enneagram is to hand them a copy of The Road Back to You. And ask them to read about your number with conversations that's something like, you know, I this book really explains me in ways that I've struggled to explain myself to you. So ⁓ here's about me and how I see the world. Would you just read just this one part? It's just because I want you to know me. And then I really would like to have my book back. And what happens once people recognize that what's in the road back to you. Is not threatening in any way and it perfectly describes you, then the curiosity they have about themselves kind of takes over because we all want to know about ourselves and we all want to understand ourselves. And finally, I would say that I think there are people who just don't want to know their number. And they might know enough to know it and not want anybody else to know what it is because they're not healthy in their number. And that's okay too. I would encourage in churches and in social circles that you not talk about the Enneagram using that word or using numbers. There's nothing that you need to say ⁓ about what you're learning or what you're experiencing or how it's affecting your life that you can't say without saying that you're a five, six, seven, nine, one, whatever it is. And with the word anyagram, you don't need that language to talk about. things that you're learning about yourself. And that sets the table for people to ask you about something rather than you trying to convince them about something. And the convinced part I would give up on. So my response to anybody who is publicly taking on the Enneagram is ⁓ okay. I I wouldn't come on a a podcast and argue with anybody about the value of what we offer and ⁓ There is no philosophy that doesn't suggest that self knowledge is essential if you want to know who you are in relationship to God. So that's a lot of talking. I hope it helps.
Tyler Zach: thank you. That's very helpful, Suzanne. Sure. ⁓ the the next question comes from Gary he is a social six with a seven wing. And he said, Are there any types more susceptible to what we would call classic narcissism or overt narcissism?
Suzanne Stabile: probably, but I'm not gonna talk about that without talking about the types that are also susceptible to other Well defined and well understood. struggles. it is most likely that threes would be identified as struggling with narcissism or labeled as a narcissist by somebody else. Now I'm gonna say all the others in a minute, but I'm gonna get a little bit preachy. And the preachy thing I'm gonna say is all of a sudden ⁓ he's a narcissist, she's a narcissist, they're both narcissists. That language is in the culture everywhere. And I don't know why. I I have no idea. People are talking about something they don't know anything about. And they're just labeling people as a narcissist because they don't like them or because they think they're selfish or because they hurt them or whatever. So I think we need to not do that. yeah, that I'm done preaching, I think. I'll I'll probably preach again later, but that's I'm done for now. And ⁓ I would also say, along with that, threes are. likely misidentified as narcissists or threes may struggle with narcissism more than other numbers. I believe that ones are frequently in chatter around ⁓ misidentified and misrepresented as being obsessive compulsive. And there's no doubt that fours are being diagnosed and misunderstood and told that they're either bipolar or bipolar type two. Fives, ⁓ particularly introverted fives, are often told by someone that they're probably on the spectrum. And ⁓ I think introverted fives are particularly told that they might have Ashbergers. So that's a problem. sevens, I know ADHD is now the ⁓ disorder that's supposed to cover the whole range. But I'm going to talk about the way it used to be because that's helpful to me in relationship to the Enneagram. And that is I think sevens are often misdiagnosed as ADHD, while nines are often misdiagnosed as having ADD. And eights, of course, are misdiagnosed as being oppositional defiant.
Tyler Zach: Wow. That that is so helpful, Suzanne. wow, I'm just just taking that in. ⁓ so ⁓ the next question is Gabriel said, How can helping show up for an Enneagram Two Does it have to be cleaning and meeting those kids' ⁓ needs, or it be more related to helping with information or problem solving? So in other words, she's asking if a helper can look different than what most people think of as as helping.
Suzanne Stabile: I would suggest that what she's asking about is the difference in an average two and a healthy two, or a two that's in excess in his or her number and ⁓ healthy two. All of those things that ⁓ have to do with cleaning and children and cooking and all those things. In many church denominations, we have ⁓ lots of women. who ⁓ mis identify as twos who are really sixes are another number. And that's and particularly in my generation. ⁓ and that's because we We're seen and the expectation is that we will do all of those things. Younger women who are twos don't see themselves that way and they don't ⁓ Give into that being the only definition of giving. So here is what I would suggest. We all have a different skill set. if you're a two, ⁓ the challenge is for you to make sure that you've answered what I think are three really important questions before you help anywhere with anyone. And I ⁓ them to myself. Sometimes, maybe most of the time, I sure forget sometimes. So here are the questions. Why am I moving toward this other person? And it wouldn't matter what help you're going to offer. The question first is, why are you going to offer help to this other person? The second question is, what, if anything, do I expect to get in return? And the third question is, does the other person want my help? And If you answer those three questions, then the arena of where you might offer help that would be received graciously and with joy is the world. As long as you're doing it for the right reason, the other person wants your help. And it doesn't matter what kind of offering you're making. It could be offering to teach, it could be Offering to work in leadership positions. There there are so so so many. So ⁓ that's my answer. Don't limit yourself to what you consider being helpful as a two. Frequently, Frequently, you'll be happier and a better giver if you're doing what is yours to do. And then there's the punchline. The question I ask myself when I wake up every day and ⁓ while I'm drinking coffee, I ask myself, what is mine to do today? And when as a two, I'm able to answer the what is mine to do question. Then I'm able to do better with my priorities because. for everybody, but seems to be a bigger problem for us. Every yes that you say means you have to say no somewhere else. And so as important as is it is sorry, as important as it is for me to say yes in the right places, it's equally important for me to be aware of what that means I have to say no to. ⁓ it I'm reminded that there is ⁓ misdiagnosis for sixes And that's anxiety disorder. And honestly, there's so much anxiety right now. And and be clear with all of the numbers and all of the things that I shared. Be very clear that in any of those numbers, it could be ⁓ Those those diagnoses could be with any number, not just the numbers that I
Tyler Zach: We'll put very, very helpful, Suzanne. ⁓ Terry attended a workshop with you in Richmond this past year. And ⁓ she asks, ⁓ there are many ways to share the Enneagram wisdom. In your experience, which format do you find the most beneficial for transformational personal growth? ⁓ and do you enjoy one format over the other? Like coaching, workshops, cohorts, retreats.
Suzanne Stabile: Here at the Mica Center, we advertise this phenomenal space by saying the Mica Center, a place for solitary work that can't be done alone. So that's the headline for what I'm about to say. If you don't have somebody to hold your feet to the fire, it meaning if you don't have some accountability, if you aren't in conversation with someone else so that you understand that other people are also struggling, if if those things are not in happening for you, then studying the Enneagram by just reading or by yourself is not going to be particularly helpful. I ⁓ have had a lot of people through the years who have attended my workshops and been in my cohorts who are Enneagram coaches. And I I'm all for that. I don't I don't have anything negative to say about that. The one concern that I would put on the table is that you have to work on yourself in relationships. That's where you learn about who you are and how you are in the world and what you get wrong and what you get right. And I worry sometimes that coaching ends up being about how you deal with other people more than how you deal with yourself. And this is your work to do. And other people have to do their work. And I I can be. really manipulative with the enne gram And so can anybody else. And I work very hard not to. And I think other people have to do the same. The other thing that concerns me about coaching and about it is there seems to be a lot of assumption about what numbers other people are. And the motivation your Ennea Gram number is determined by motivation, not by behavior. And I believe we very seldom know the motivation of the people in our lives, particularly the people we work with. So those are some concerns. ⁓ I'm not a fan of trendy Enneagram, meaning I absolutely don't believe that you can figure out your number with any of these ⁓ things that I occasionally see in social media. I can't tell you how many questions we get that are. Irrelevant because they're so off the charts. ⁓ Joel shared one with me this morning that ⁓ essentially said, can you be ⁓ can you be a seven slash three and a four slash nine? Because that's what the test said. Well, that's an example of the kind of questions that we get everywhere we go. So I used to be able to stand up and just start teaching whatever content I was going to teach when I was teaching on the road. Now I start with a QA and I do it because there's so much bad information. in the culture about the Enneagram, bad meaning inaccurate. And ⁓ I have to clean all that up so that everybody in the room can learn. I hope I answered the question. I I think I overanswered as I tend to do.
Tyler Zach: No, the extra stuff you're sharing is so helpful, Suzanne. Thank you so much.
Suzanne Stabile: Did I answer the question? Okay. Thanks. If I don't if I ever get started and I don't answer the question, then just tell me and I'll I will.
Tyler Zach: Yes. No, we just are enjoying having our coffee here. ⁓ just listening to you, Suzanne. So you can just keep talking for however long you want.
Suzanne Stabile: ⁓ don't say that.
Tyler Zach: ⁓ the next question comes from it's kind of along the lines of what you're talking about. It's ⁓ Tamara ⁓ she's a public school teacher working bedside with kids at a children's hospital in Los Angeles. And she said, Can someone be a type four without all the emotional intensity that a typical ⁓ typically characterizes ⁓ type four? So it kind of goes off of what you just said about behavior and motivation.
Suzanne Stabile: Yes, one can, and one in her position particularly can. There's there's no way that she could do what she's doing and ⁓ give in to the ⁓ excess that fours sometime kind of enjoy. She can't do that and do what she's doing. So hats off to her for what she's doing. It's ⁓ Really helpful that the stress number for her is a two because between those two numbers, the children will get exquisite help. And ⁓ She didn't ask this question, but I I would encourage her to listen to our daughter Joey and her husband Billy. ⁓ you can find them at Enneagram Parents. They're doing some really good teaching that helps parents figure out what stance their children are in. And I believe in her position, she may be able to figure out what stance the children are in that she's working with. And that would be ⁓ I think. Very helpful.
Tyler Zach: Very good. Jimmy ⁓ from Atlanta, Georgia. And he said, I would like to develop the conversational skill of asking the right questions to help a person discover the Enneagram type they most identify with. Again, this is going off of what you said before earlier. ⁓ Are there any suggestions For doing Enneagram exploration through personal conversation rather than just telling someone to take an assessment.
Suzanne Stabile: Well, I'm ⁓ I don't want you to ever tell them to go do the inventory or the test. It's wrong a high percentage of the time. And then people ⁓ try to live into the number that the test or the indicator says they are. If you ⁓ get a copy of The Path Between Us and the study guide for that book, that's my second book, you'll find all the questions you need in the chapters in that book.
Tyler Zach: Okay, great. ⁓ Kim is a female pastor and a social nine. ⁓ she loves the Enneagram and works with it often. And she asks, How can I balance helping others ⁓ then also my helping myself, which is lacking, as you know, being a two, ⁓ Suzanne.
Suzanne Stabile: And she's a nine, right?
Tyler Zach: Social nine. Got it.
Suzanne Stabile: ⁓ You need to work on your lost childhood messages. That you I don't like that language. I'm starting over. I would encourage you work with your childhood messages. ⁓ ⁓ if you don't know that teaching, that's Riso and Hudson teaching. And let me introduce it so that everybody knows what we're talking about. They did a good bit of work early on when they started doing enneagram work around unconscious childhood messages and lost childhood messages. And the definition of the unconscious childhood message is that it's a message that you just didn't get in childhood. And it doesn't mean it wasn't offered, it means you didn't get it. And the lost childhood message is a message you needed that you didn't get and that you're not aware of it being offered. So let me ⁓ tell you what those are for nines, and then I'll talk about why that's so important for your number. The unconscious childhood message for nines is it's not okay to assert yourself. And the lost childhood message for nines is your presence matters. Self-care is very hard to get to if you don't think you can assert yourself, because saying no falls under asserting yourself. And if you don't think your presence matters, because you get lost in believing that your presence matters here. So you want to really give to them. And then you give too much and ⁓ all the things happen. So I really would encourage all people who are asking these kinds of questions to do some work around enneagram and discernment. And enneagram and discernment is a process. It's a process of understanding yourself and looking at what you say yes to that you end up wishing you weren't doing. And it's a process of learning and understanding that your presence matters. And if you don't take care of yourself, you won't be able to do the things where your presence matters. I also think there's an intuitive thing in nines where they try to Undo ⁓ sloth, which is their passion. And that reminds me of something I want to go back and say about something else. But sloth means being unaffected by life, a desire to be unaffected by life. It doesn't have anything to do with laziness, doesn't have anything to do with not doing. It's just a desire to be unaffected by life. And once you wrap your arms around that. And you look at the things that you're trying to avoid affecting you, then you'll find out where you need discernment. And from there you'll find out how the messages play into that. And then I think all that'll be very helpful.
Tyler Zach: That's very helpful, I'm sure, to her, and then also to us listening in ⁓ for the nines that know, which ⁓ we have a lot nine, ⁓ amazing nine friends. ⁓ Jenny from Indiana says, how do you handle frustration and resentment when your partner doesn't care about their emotional or spiritual ⁓ health?
Suzanne Stabile: First of all, ⁓ over my twenty-six years now, I think, I can't tell you how many times I've h been asked that question. So you're not alone. This is an individual journey for everybody. And If you've never heard me teach in person or heard Joe and I teach or heard him teach, you may not know that we say every time we teach, everybody needs a therapist and everybody needs a spiritual director. And going back to the person who asked about discernment, ⁓ if you have a spiritual director, that's the place where you learn better discernment tools. If ⁓ in this case you are pushing somebody, then be mindful of the fact that there are numbers who totally, totally resist being pushed. So ⁓ I happen to be married to one. If you've never heard me talk about Joe, then I ⁓ say to everybody publicly and everywhere else, he is the best human being I've ever known, ever. I just don't know a better person. And he's stubborn because he's a nine on the Enneagram. And if you push nines, then they just dig in and aren't going to do it. On the other hand, it's costly in a relationship where one person is growing and maturing and experiencing change and some transformation, and the other person isn't. And I would suggest that you deal with your resentment and your frustration with the therapist and that you then invite your partner into therapy with you because. Relationships where both people are not headed in the same direction need help to get both people on board. And I'm sorry. I know it's hard, really hard to be growing and changing and to be in relationship with and love someone who's not interested. But you can't make them interested by pushing.
Tyler Zach: Peg who is from Council Bluffs, ⁓ Iowa, near me. I actually know Peg. ⁓ And ⁓ she said, How can women in ministry ⁓ leadership be heard without being labeled ⁓ as a negative part of a type? Because They're ex voicing a dissenting opinion. ⁓ this really resonates with me personally because ⁓ my as a somebody who's been in ministry for 18 years, ⁓ my views on women in ministry have changed ⁓ primarily because of the Bible, ⁓ having a different hermeneutical approach to the Bible than I was taught, but also just the Ennea gram has been really helpful for me to see how God has has wired ⁓ women So can you offer encouragement or support or guidance to those Peg's ⁓ position.
Suzanne Stabile: ⁓ I can sure offer support and I can for sure offer compassion and care and I can share the frustration and maybe I can be helpful. I I know that's not too encouraging, but it's honest. I don't there's some things in life that I just don't understand. In the United Methodist Church, my husband's a United Methodist pastor. And ⁓ We were the first to ordain women, and yet I can name very few women for you who are in ministry in our denomination who are serving large or significant according to the cultural understanding of ⁓ church churches. It's I I just don't get it. Here's what I think is true. I think we are ⁓ women in ministry, not me, are ⁓ somehow considered as late to the table. And I there seems to be this overarching thing in the churches where I've worked where this is a problem of ⁓ yeah, but we already have all this history here and we already did all these things and we've already we already know kind of how we're gonna do this. And you weren't here for that. So my best offer is ask questions, don't make statements, ask hard questions. And if that doesn't work for you, then I would suggest that you go to the lead pastor or the senior pastor. I don't know what language they use where you are ⁓ How can I be heard in my position in our church and on our team? Because I feel like I have some good things to say. And I've thought a lot about how to approach everybody to find a platform for saying them. And I I really need some guidance. So can you can you help me share my voice? And can you help me understand why it's such a challenge? And once you do that, then you flipped the challenge and it's now on him. And I don't mean that in a mean-spirited way. I mean that in once that's done, then the other person has to struggle, not you. And if the answer is, gosh, I know that's a problem and I don't really know how we should fix it, then I think you say, I realize I'm just kind of throwing this out today unexpected. So could we schedule an appointment for two weeks from today? And that'll give you time to think about it. And I'll be sure to come with some of my ideas what we might do.
Tyler Zach: ⁓ Victoria wrote in the chat, she's a social seven. She said, are there types that you consider a difficult pairing for marriage? ⁓ are there types that do really well ⁓ with each other? I know I've gotten this question before and it's always in people's mind like, did I marry the wrong type? ⁓ is it true that some types ⁓ better and others ⁓ more prone to conflict? What can you speak to that, Suzanne? Sure.
Suzanne Stabile: ⁓ the answer is this. ⁓ gonna, I don't know if you can see me, not. Maybe you don't need to, but if you can see my hand, we can this hand. Let's try this one. ⁓ Where we are in Ennea gram work, there's healthy, ⁓ and that's where we hang out most of the time. The real goal is to hang out in the high side of average and hoping that you can wake work your way up some in healthy. Healthy, average, unhealthy, excess in your number, and then pathology. And we're not talking about pathology. I only do that with therapists. But what we will talk about is the this reality that we live in average space. It doesn't matter what two numbers we put together, if you're doing your what I call your work, if you're trying to be healthy, and if the goal is for each of you to be as healthy as you can be, then you don't have to worry about any gram numbers. They're not that important. Their difference then becomes kind of an advantage. rather than a disadvantage when you're both healthy. And so the goal for you is to be as healthy as you can be and continue to do your work. And I would say that ⁓ if you do that, it's going to be difficult for you to be in relationship with any of the nine numbers if they aren't committed to the same kind of work and self awareness and self knowledge and ⁓ identified goals for transformation that you have.
Tyler Zach: Thank you, Suzanne. Elke ⁓ is tuning in from Australia. ⁓ ⁓ she is also a type nine. And said that she often picks up the emotions of those around her. And how do I grow to a place of being able to have compassion for others' moods without merging with them and losing my own joy?
Suzanne Stabile: So that's a great question. ⁓ Joel's in the room with me. I think from Australia, we get lots of questions from nines. I think everybody's really laid back. ⁓ ⁓ okay. there's a difference in participation and merging.
Tyler Zach: Observation.
Suzanne Stabile: And It's not helpful to do that nine thing when the moods of other people are affecting you, of merging with them. ⁓ well, I might as well just go with that. You can, however, participate in the relationship by saying, I care about you, whatever the relationship is, but I don't feel that way. And I would be happy to have a conversation about that. And here's why I don't feel that way. And here's why that's kind of a disconnect for me. So if we name what we're afraid of, if if that's on the table, then the relationship is always helped by that. That always makes things better. And what nines are afraid of in relationships is disconnection and fragmentation. And so the reason they merge is to avoid those two things. And You can participate without merging and be a part of a collective solution rather than an either-or solution. So what you want to walk away with is both my feeling and your feeling, while different, are valid. And nines can say your reaction and your response to your feeling is so big. I'm trying to find room for mine.
Tyler Zach: Yeah, that participation comment is very helpful. Participation versus merging, very helpful for for type nines. ⁓ Michelle is from Brandon, Manitoba, Canada. ⁓ And ⁓ took your Enneagram journey course, ⁓ and she question is ⁓ coming from a type six. ⁓ She said, and this this will wet people's appetite for your teaching on stances if they've never heard you teach on stances and repress centers. Like this is very, very helpful ⁓ teaching from you. So this might ⁓ prime the pump a little bit for people, but she said, I'm thinking dominant in the head triad as a six and thinking repressed in the compliance stance. How can my thinking be more productive as a type six?
Suzanne Stabile: That's such a good question. It's hard to be three, six, nine in this stance work and have your dominant and repressed centers be the same. So I'm just tipping my hat to how hard it is. Productive thinking is the goal, and the way to get there, I think. First of all, you've taken step one by saying this is really hard for me. I would encourage you to journal. for everybody else, six is ⁓ scan the high the h horizon for danger. When they see danger or the potential for danger, then they make a plan and they plan for the worst thing that could happen. And then they vigilantly are prepared and they wait. And a high percentage of the time the thing doesn't happen. What I want you to journal about is the thing and then whether or not it happened. And do that for two or three weeks at a time. And then go back and check and estimate how much time you gave to thinking about a plan for the thing that didn't happen. And once you do that, then you'll be kind of unhappy about the time that you're wasting using your wonderful brain for planning for things that aren't going to happen. That all has to do with anxiety. So while fear is the passion for sixes, anxiety is a better word because sixes, sixes are worried about possible future events. So the second thing I would suggest. Is that you recognize that the gift that you have in our stance, I'm in the same stance you are, is that our orientation to time is the present moment. And what you need to do is keep refocusing, not on what's out there that could happen, but on what's right in front of you. And you happen to be put together in a way that you will be able to do that. And what's right in front of you is the thing. It it's the thing that you can. affect and that you can do something about if you give that your energy instead of concern about possible future events. We are just starting to talk about our August event and Joel and I are so excited about it we're we can't quit talking about it. We're texting each other about it, which we generally don't do. And ⁓ well one of the things we're going to talk about is that you You gotta be you you can't control how you take stuff in, but you can control what you take in. And so as a six, you can learn to refocus. You can you can take a deep breath, you can use prayer beads and get that rhythm in your life and carry them in your pocket, and you can just start praying the beads or land on one that you know is one that you need to be thinking about rather than. Letting your imagination start with if that happens, then I don't know what I'm gonna do about this and this and this and this. So part of productive thinking is choice. Now, here's the word I'm using with myself because I am not a productive thinker either. And I've started labeling my non-productive thinking as lazy thinking. I just I'm a lazy thinker. And ones, twos, and sixes are lazy thinkers. And lazy thinking takes up too much space in my one wild and precious life. And I'm working really hard on it. And so one of the things I do when I start thinking and let letting all the stuff go that goes, then I ask myself: is there any reason for this thinking? Is this lazy thinking? And if it's lazy thinking, I say this to myself. If it's lazy thinking, I'm not going to give into it.
Tyler Zach: Suzanne, I loved hearing you say that you st you still have work to do.
Suzanne Stabile: ⁓ my gosh.
Tyler Zach: And that's so good because you've been doing this for so long. And I know that in the decades to come that I'm gonna have to continue to be doing the work with my feelings as a type three. And ⁓ so I just appreciate you your humility ⁓ in sharing that.
Suzanne Stabile: One of things I say when I start to teach a stance workshop, I open with, this is work for a lifetime. You'll never finish.
Tyler Zach: Amen. Well, we let's let's do one more question and then I'll let you give any final thoughts ⁓ or say anything you want to say here at at the close. ⁓ but I like this question. It's from Susan, and she said, How does trauma and early childhood affect finding your type? And then I would just add to that, have how have you seen trauma, past trauma leading people to mistype? So can you speak to that?
Suzanne Stabile: I have to say this this is not my experience, but I ⁓ I had a lot of ⁓ healthy people around me and a lot of good therapy. So I'm adopted at birth, and that's trauma. I was a foreign exchange student when I was 16, and I was sexually abused by the men in the family that I lived with as an exchange student, and that's trauma. And coming back from the event in Europe, ⁓ it I repressed all that to the point that it took a number of years, ⁓ a lot of years, for that to bubble back to the surface. And then my dad was a doc and he found me a really great therapist and I got good therapy then. And having said that, I understand the reality of of what I'm about to teach. Your number is well honed by the time you're five. I have said, and I'm going to continue to say, because I really believe it's true, that we are genetically predisposed to be a certain number. I'm not a geneticist. I can't teach you about how that works. All I have to rely on is frankly the fact that here in the Mica Center, ⁓ I used to do an apprentice program where people came four times a year for three years. I now do several cohorts. Where I have people for a year and they come four times for a long weekend. And I've learned a lot from the people in the room. Much of what I've learned, I learned right here when I was supposedly teaching, and they were learning, and they were teaching me. And In this healthy, average, unhealthy excess in your number and pathology, trauma causes us to ⁓ intuitively operate from excess in our number. And that's when you're doing all of the most unhealthy things that you do. And that is the place where. We stay, those of us who have experienced trauma for such a long time, that the difference in children who experience trauma and children who don't in their Enneagram number is that it just takes longer for children who have experienced trauma to work their way up from excess through unhealthy and into average behavior. And longer could mean years. It just takes longer. And I find it very comforting that trauma doesn't cause your Enneagram number to change. Because if it did, that would erase hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years of Enneagram wisdom. And that would be very confusing. The other thing you have to know is if you're gonna deal with trauma, you have to know what your stress number is. And so if you learned your number. In a know your number workshop or something where it's taught orally, I would encourage you to go back and listen to your stress number being taught orally. And and in that you recognize behavior that you used then that it's been hard for you to let go of as you've matured and gotten healthier and healthier because that somehow was your way of getting through. If you hear me teach, ⁓ About that, you will hear me say that in terms of stress and security, you cannot take care of yourself without the number that you go to in stress. You have to have it. And so when you experience trauma, you have to look at the stress number and you have to look at what it looks like to be in excess in your number to know where you were coming from and the climb that is to be healthy in your number. I hope that's helpful.
Tyler Zach: That's so helpful. ⁓ thank you so much for sharing that. So we're at time now. And I just want to say as Julie said, you know, thank you. ⁓ Victoria said thank you so much for your great perspective today. ⁓ Annelle said, Thank you so much for sharing your vulnerability. ⁓ Michelle said you so much for speaking to my Sixness today and unproductive thinking. That was helpful. ⁓ Kelly said thank you for enabling us to have this ⁓ special time with you. So yeah, thank you so much for just giving us an hour of your day today to spend with us. We really appreciate it.
Suzanne Stabile: love to teach answering questions. It's my favorite way to teach. So I would suggest that maybe the gift is all mine. Thank you for showing up. Thank you for asking good questions. Thank you for learning the Enneagram. And you know, for anybody who's doing this work, we're we're all in it together to try to make the world a better place. So thank you for your contribution to that.
