Episode 80: Between the Buried and Me's "Colors"

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Cliff: Today we're talking about
"Colors" by Between the Buried and Me.
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Held this one in for as long as I could
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Kyle: I think this was on the
original list, however long we've
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been doing this, seven or eight years.
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Cliff: Hmm.
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Kyle: It was like pick your
five favorite albums ever.
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And then it was like, "Oh no, we gotta
get better at talking in not the stupidest
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way possible about music before we can
even attempt that." So we did one of
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mine way, way back with Rated R and I
got it out of the way, and I think this
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has been on a short list every year
since at least then, and we've just
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kept punting and I was like, "No more.
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We gotta do it.
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It's time to do it." In fairness, the
past couple of years it's been stacked up
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in a pretty crazy month for the calendar
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Cliff: Oh yeah
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Kyle: by my recollection.
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It's got some stiff competition.
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I think like it was Gang of Four
maybe last year and Whatever.
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Cliff, is this your number one
favorite album of all time?
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Cliff: no, but partially because the
amount that I love records by this band
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is distributed and therefore diluted
across like two-thirds of their catalog
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Kyle: Cliff, is this your
favorite musical artist?
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Cliff: Yeah, living.
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Yeah, for sure.
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Living and active, yeah.
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I have seen them 30 plus times
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Kyle: It's one of the few artists I know
that you've flown out of state to see for
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a sonically disappointing, not because
of the band, show in New York because of
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the, because the venue sounded like s**t.
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Was that them and Meshuggah?
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Cliff: Yes.
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Kyle: Yeah.
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Well, it's like your dream bill,
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Cliff: Yes.
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Kyle: then it's, it sounded terrible
at the Best Buy Theater, was it?
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Cliff: Yeah.
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At, at what is the longest concert
hall in all of modern history.
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It's like a hot dog in
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Kyle: The back rooms.
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Cliff: Yeah.
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It-- I mean, you had a near sound
delay two-thirds of the way back,
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Kyle: That's crazy.
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Cliff: which you can tell when
Meshuggah is playing because they has
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the lights that go with the sounds
and you're like, "Are we on a…
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Excuse me, are we on a delay
in case something happens?"
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Kyle: Yeah, it messes you up double.
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Cliff: Yes
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Kyle: But we have seen them a
bunch of times where everything
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has come together and they've been
really, really, really, really good.
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And I think we counted in the two-year
period around this record, like
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post-Alaska, pre-Great Misdirect,
I think in an, in an exactly
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two-year period, December 2006 to
December 2008, we saw them six times
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Cliff: Yeah.
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Kyle: Which is like, now thinking
about how much harder it is for bands,
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especially smaller bands to tour,
like what a luxury that would be.
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I think The only other band that
I've even remotely approached that
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level or frequency with is Every Time
I Die, 'cause they were in Atlanta
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reliably like twice a year there
for the better part of a decade.
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I just don't see anybody
burning down the road.
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not, no band's fault.
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It's not economically or
logistically feasible anymore.
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So for one, before we get into
anything musical about this band,
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I just wanna appreciate that we
got to appreciate them so much.
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we got so much of this band in our face.
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And like, after really hardcore listening
to this record for the most that I've
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listened to it in 15 plus years easy,
this would be nigh on impossible
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for me to play three or four nights
in a row, let alone like 150 to 200
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nights a year like they were doing.
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It's hard.
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But they clearly love it because
they've continued to play increasingly
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complex and sophisticated music for
20… Are they a 25 year band now?
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Yeah, they were like right around the
turn of the century when they got started.
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Cliff: Yep, this would be year
26, uh, with Tommy and Paul
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being the, I think, or- original.
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Kyle: the core.
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Yeah.
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Most of these guys fell
in around Alaska, right?
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Cliff: Yeah.
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"Alaska" was the first record with,
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Kyle: Blake and Dan
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Cliff: Drums, guitar, and bass, and Dusty.
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Yeah
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Kyle: And Dusty, RIP sweep right on past
that and keep on going to the music.
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Five guys from North Carolina in North
Carolina, five mostly vegan guys get
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together and make smart songs about,
croakies and qu- and bicycles and
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Cliff: I'll just say as I follow your lead
and you've brushed a thing away, uh, with
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the RIP joke, we'll just say these days
the homies all seem okay, so we're gonna
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treat it like the homies are all okay,
and that's all that needs to be done there
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Kyle: listen, once an episode just
about there's a, like, capital T
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thing we need to-- we would need
to take a stance on, you know?
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Like, there's some sort of land
acknowledgement thing to do every
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episode, and it's like, I don't know.
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Cliff: Right
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Kyle: I have an opinion about the
principle of the thing we would
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be talking about, but I j- like,
I can throw my hands up every time
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and be like, "It's complicated."
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Marvin Gaye was the inflection
point for that for me.
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he was a complicated f**king dude.
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He did a lot of things that
I really super did not like.
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His dad shot him in cold blood.
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Here we are.
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"I Want You" is an incredible,
unimpeachable album.
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I would like to focus on that.
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Like, let's save all the
other stuff for the bar.
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I will happily get into it.
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This-- We will never be two dudes
who are like, "We're not political.
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Music, there's no place for politics in
music." Yes, the f**k there is always,
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Cliff: That's right.
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Kyle: always.
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But there's a 64-minute opus at hand to be
discussed, and I would not like to detract
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it with the very human imperfect things
that very human imperfect people do.
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I don't know.
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I guess TLDR, it's none
of my f**king business.
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this artifact exists,
and let's focus on that.
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Long enough wind up for you now?
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Now, n- now I bet you wish
we had glossed over it.
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Cliff: You know, that's what I
was just saying to you, Kyle,
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before we started this episode,
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Kyle: wish this guy
would shut the f**k up.
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This is gonna be fine.
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This is one of my favorite albums
and, um, I'm feeling no pressure
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or weirdness to get it right.
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So why don't we just let Kyle
totally f**k it up right off the rip?
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Take it away.
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Cl- make me a bicycle clown.
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Cliff: To be…
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Kyle: Bicycle.
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Cliff: Yeah, thanks for that placeholder.
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Yeah, we gotta remember
to bring that in too
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Kyle: As we get into the anatomy
of Between the Buried and Me
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Cliff: Yes.
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Honestly though, the 20% f**k
around attitude is the only way to
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get what's happening on this record.
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If you go too serious about any
of this and treat it like it's a
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f**king actual jazz record, you'll
miss some of what's fun here.
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And I think the way that they talked
about making this record, both at the
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time and in retrospect, points to that.
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The lyrics are sort of about that.
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I think everyone else is a f**king
square, so we're gonna do this instead.
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I'm literally talking about myself
right now in the song lyrics, is
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sort of like their whole vibe here.
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So like there's a lot of that energy,
but I think it's good to come right
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out with don't take it too seriously
because as we now get to experience,
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going back and reading what people
say the first time or first few times
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they listen to a record and try to
review it is an incredible exercise.
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And one of the things I witnessed
here, which I bet almost all of
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these folks would write differently
about it now, is if i-i- in trying to
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Kyle: Hello, Nick from
Lambgoat or whatever
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Cliff: yep.
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Li- in several others, like in trying
to take all this in, there was this like
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sensory overload type thing that became,
"Oh, this is f**king silly and random."
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Like it's
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technical metal
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Kyle: so random
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Cliff: Yeah.
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maybe as much as any music on
planet Earth, if this feels
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random to you, we're not the same
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on the inside.
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Kyle: Yeah, no- nothing could possibly
make more sense to me as a person
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whose n- neurons were connecting when
he had an iPod with a shuffle feature.
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Cliff: Yes
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Kyle: Like, music doesn't
sound like this in your brain?
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I'm just glad they sorted it out in a
linear fashion, because normally it's
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these three things stacked on top of
each other happening at the same time.
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Cliff: So starting with all
descriptions of why this matches
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up with brains like ours maybe.
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Okay, so released on Victory
Records September 18th, 2007.
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I listened to this album for the
first time on September 18th, 2007,
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which I will talk about in specifics
'cause it's important to me.
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But this album was written as a
single continuous 64-minute piece
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of music split into eight tracks.
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Like already we're making jokes
about this music makes sense to me.
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Like to me, that maybe all
music should work this way.
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Kyle: Mm-hmm.
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Cliff: the shape of the thing
is already so appealing.
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It's the oddly satisfying subreddit for
my brain in a musical conceptual form,
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from five vegan dudes from North Carolina
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Kyle: It has so many like
Fibonacci-an qualities.
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Like the-- Just everything just
feels like the golden ratio when,
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when you're experiencing it.
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This is their fourth record by this point.
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We had the self-titled and then "Silent
Circus," which I remember a lot of,
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obviously "Alaska" was like the record.
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I remember at Tyler Battle's house,
they just like had it on in the living
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room, and it was like, "Hold on.
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It's like 3:00 in the afternoon.
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What the f**k is this?" Absolutely,
this is flag on the play. but then
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I sat there for five minutes and was
like, "This-- What is this again?
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This is insane." And then I
went to Criminal and I bought
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it like on the trip home.
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Cliff: I did not know this
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Kyle: yeah, because specifically because
whoever's CD it was, maybe Tom Kilgore's,
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showed me the cover and it just like,
it was just the word, just the word
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Alaska on the wood texture or whatever,
and I was like, "That looks sick.
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I need to know more.
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This is different than
anything I listen to.
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I need to know more about this." So,
yeah, I went to Criminal Records back
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when they were in the small location,
and on CD I bought, not necessarily
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proud or not proud of this, "Alaska"
by Between the Buried and Me, "I'll
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Take Care of You," the covers record
by Mark Lanegan, still great, and "High
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as Hell" by the band Nashville Pussy.
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Cliff: Two for three is not bad.
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Kyle: listen, that's a great… If
you want just like this, the trashiest
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AC/DC sound and s- just it's, it's
unforgivable stuff, but, they had riffs.
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so we were all on that train in
2005, '6, you know, when we were 18.
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and then there was a lot
of driving around, playing,
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especially the first half.
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I remember a lot of Mordecai
as we were playing pass the
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iPod, driving around in the car.
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Very, very loud Mordecai.
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and then this came out.
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So where were you?
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why does it stick so
specifically in your mind?
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Cliff: Where were you?
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Kyle: It did come out in
mid-September, so tread lightly.
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Tread lightly
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Cliff: to get to your actual question
and moment in time, it's cool to
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step back 'cause you just told me
some things I didn't know, and I
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caused some of what just happened,
and I didn't ever know that before.
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So to answer your question about the two
records before this, I went to college.
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We both went to college.
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for one year, both of us
were in college at the same
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Kyle: That was a thing we shared
for a bl- a brief fleeting moment.
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And for anyone to know us now and
how much smarter than me you are,
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it really says something about
the return on American education,
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higher education Maybe it doesn't.
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I don't know.
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You're smarter than me, so you can do a
whole thing around that inference train.
229
00:12:37,362 --> 00:12:38,912
Anyway, that's not what
we're here to talk about.
230
00:12:38,912 --> 00:12:42,332
You were in college for, you were
in college for four seconds, and
231
00:12:42,332 --> 00:12:44,552
while you were in college, blank.
232
00:12:44,922 --> 00:12:45,652
Take it away, Cliff.
233
00:12:45,804 --> 00:12:46,684
Cliff: So, okay.
234
00:12:47,166 --> 00:12:49,996
As soon as I started, which
would've been like right, I guess
235
00:12:50,016 --> 00:12:53,186
early September or whatever it
would've been back then, right?
236
00:12:53,426 --> 00:12:57,454
I remember where I was
I'm at a school event.
237
00:12:57,674 --> 00:12:58,754
Kyle: In Murfreesboro.
238
00:12:59,530 --> 00:13:04,580
Cliff: So this is in Cleveland,
Georgia, at a small private Baptist
239
00:13:05,324 --> 00:13:05,934
Kyle: Oh.
240
00:13:05,944 --> 00:13:05,954
Oh,
241
00:13:06,310 --> 00:13:10,390
Cliff: Christian school, which,
which shan't be f**king named.
242
00:13:11,371 --> 00:13:11,971
Kyle: That was rough.
243
00:13:12,021 --> 00:13:13,161
That was rough sledding for
244
00:13:13,279 --> 00:13:13,499
Cliff: the,
245
00:13:13,941 --> 00:13:16,651
Kyle: That was, like, not
something you were excited
246
00:13:16,753 --> 00:13:19,463
Cliff: We all need our
stepping stones, and it got me
247
00:13:19,463 --> 00:13:20,853
exactly where I wanted to go.
248
00:13:21,401 --> 00:13:21,941
Kyle: Yeah, yeah.
249
00:13:22,251 --> 00:13:25,961
You impressed a lot of people with the
Maylene and the Sons of Disaster debut
250
00:13:25,961 --> 00:13:28,641
record in your dorm, by my recollection
251
00:13:29,785 --> 00:13:32,815
Cliff: Well, they did play the
gymnasium just down the street
252
00:13:33,003 --> 00:13:33,903
Kyle: Did they really?
253
00:13:34,173 --> 00:13:35,133
In Cleveland?
254
00:13:35,225 --> 00:13:35,635
Cliff: yeah.
255
00:13:35,675 --> 00:13:37,025
Like a basketball court.
256
00:13:37,343 --> 00:13:39,263
Kyle: That's super, that super rips.
257
00:13:39,355 --> 00:13:39,985
Cliff: It was so good.
258
00:13:39,995 --> 00:13:41,045
The lights were on.
259
00:13:41,095 --> 00:13:43,325
It was deeply incredible
260
00:13:43,610 --> 00:13:47,379
Kyle: that is one thing that, It wasn't,
it's not even nostalgia, but there
261
00:13:47,389 --> 00:13:52,448
really was like a moment happening
of so much crazy music out of the
262
00:13:52,448 --> 00:13:55,298
South and just like around the scene.
263
00:13:55,628 --> 00:14:01,495
Just, I got put back in the old masquerade
so much, looking at all the stuff that
264
00:14:01,495 --> 00:14:03,195
was coming ar- out around this time.
265
00:14:03,205 --> 00:14:07,015
Like we-- I, I kind of took it for granted
as a very fertile and interesting time.
266
00:14:07,463 --> 00:14:08,143
Cliff: Oh, for sure.
267
00:14:08,303 --> 00:14:08,923
For sure.
268
00:14:09,490 --> 00:14:14,930
to that point, so right before "Alaska"
came out or right when it was coming out,
269
00:14:14,930 --> 00:14:21,200
I guess I was at a school event and I
had-- So that we can really set the stage.
270
00:14:21,363 --> 00:14:24,510
this was 2005, right?
271
00:14:24,540 --> 00:14:24,790
No.
272
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:25,820
Yes.
273
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:26,280
Okay.
274
00:14:26,750 --> 00:14:30,370
And so therefore, there were a few
haircuts that worked at the time.
275
00:14:30,630 --> 00:14:34,300
One of them would have been I'm
growing my hair as long as it
276
00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:39,410
can possibly be, and so it's this
terrible shoulder-length emo-esque
277
00:14:39,622 --> 00:14:40,512
Kyle: Swoopy thing.
278
00:14:40,940 --> 00:14:41,260
Cliff: Yeah.
279
00:14:41,900 --> 00:14:44,770
Which I didn't take too seriously,
but again, stepping stones.
280
00:14:44,820 --> 00:14:46,630
You gotta get to long hair from where you
281
00:14:46,712 --> 00:14:49,362
Kyle: Str- strangers sure did
when they were talking to you.
282
00:14:49,442 --> 00:14:50,742
They took it real seriously
283
00:14:50,936 --> 00:14:53,326
Cliff: One of the benefits of
having that hair, though, was that
284
00:14:53,326 --> 00:14:58,788
I could put Shure E3 monitors in my
ear and no one could tell at all.
285
00:14:58,898 --> 00:15:01,408
So I could just listen
to whatever I wanted to.
286
00:15:01,408 --> 00:15:02,568
So I'm at a school event.
287
00:15:02,828 --> 00:15:09,362
I have now read about Silent Circus on
Blogspot or some s**t somewhere, right?
288
00:15:09,626 --> 00:15:09,836
Kyle: Yeah
289
00:15:10,670 --> 00:15:14,393
Cliff: So I download that
record it took about two minutes
290
00:15:14,673 --> 00:15:16,403
before I went, "Uh, uh…"
291
00:15:17,063 --> 00:15:22,053
Whatever the 2005 version of this is
my whole personality now was like okay.
292
00:15:22,273 --> 00:15:26,323
I'm gonna go back home this weekend and
I'm gonna tell everyone I know about
293
00:15:26,333 --> 00:15:31,433
this now 'cause there's another record
that's coming out now, and this rips.
294
00:15:31,948 --> 00:15:37,618
whatever is happening here is
good." And then "Alaska" drops
295
00:15:37,648 --> 00:15:40,738
and to your point, kinda just
like blows up in the friend group.
296
00:15:40,908 --> 00:15:46,384
Everyone is playing this record, which
just again, it's one gets together to play
297
00:15:46,384 --> 00:15:48,904
technical death metal records anymore.
298
00:15:48,984 --> 00:15:50,994
What a precious, beautiful time.
299
00:15:51,332 --> 00:15:54,062
Kyle: Yeah, September
6th, 2005 that came out.
300
00:15:54,082 --> 00:15:57,752
So right as we-- The, the
moment we started college.
301
00:15:57,949 --> 00:15:58,549
Cliff: Exactly.
302
00:15:58,549 --> 00:15:59,729
So we're starting college.
303
00:15:59,769 --> 00:16:02,644
I'm going back home 'cause a lot of
my friends are still seniors in high
304
00:16:02,644 --> 00:16:04,764
school, so I'm hanging out with them.
305
00:16:04,774 --> 00:16:08,004
We listen to this record
all the time to Alaska.
306
00:16:08,474 --> 00:16:13,004
That, honestly, because of how much it
rewired my brain as a record and how
307
00:16:13,004 --> 00:16:18,104
much I've memorized it, it's probably my
favorite overall from "Between the Buried
308
00:16:18,104 --> 00:16:25,264
and Me," but even I would agree that the
next thing that they did after that was
309
00:16:25,474 --> 00:16:31,684
the actual game changer and then became,
to your point about a lot of the music
310
00:16:31,684 --> 00:16:34,684
that was coming out in the mid-aughts and
all the shows that were coming through
311
00:16:34,684 --> 00:16:37,614
The Masquerade, this went off like a nuke.
312
00:16:37,857 --> 00:16:40,747
everyone I knew liked
"Between the Buried and Me,"
313
00:16:41,163 --> 00:16:41,483
Kyle: Yeah.
314
00:16:41,697 --> 00:16:45,777
Cliff: and it was From the beginning of
our lives all the way until now, there
315
00:16:45,777 --> 00:16:50,707
are a few pure joys that exist, and there
for that moment, it was like everyone
316
00:16:50,707 --> 00:16:53,857
loves my favorite band and this rips.
317
00:16:54,197 --> 00:16:56,827
So when "Colors"
318
00:16:57,119 --> 00:17:02,569
Kyle: It was like, I can't believe a th-
there is a thing this good in the world,
319
00:17:02,889 --> 00:17:05,169
and I can't believe other people care
320
00:17:05,509 --> 00:17:11,069
Cliff: And I mean, I'm only, 18, 19 years
old, so I thought I was cynical by then.
321
00:17:11,069 --> 00:17:12,619
It's like I hadn't seen s**t.
322
00:17:12,619 --> 00:17:17,109
But like, yeah, even then I was
like, man, w- like what a rare gift.
323
00:17:17,129 --> 00:17:18,649
Everyone wants to go to these shows.
324
00:17:18,999 --> 00:17:20,459
People will go with me.
325
00:17:20,799 --> 00:17:23,729
I'll see people there that
I actually wanna talk to.
326
00:17:23,729 --> 00:17:26,959
People will ask me about this band
when they see me in other places.
327
00:17:27,399 --> 00:17:29,079
Like, all this is awesome.
328
00:17:29,559 --> 00:17:36,189
And when "Colors" came out, I was
living-- I had moved back from
329
00:17:36,189 --> 00:17:42,869
Nashville, was living in Atlanta
in a house with four other dudes.
330
00:17:43,209 --> 00:17:48,529
And to give a real economic
framework for this, I was paying $125
331
00:17:48,979 --> 00:17:49,159
per
332
00:17:49,209 --> 00:17:50,699
Kyle: the Kirkwood house at point?
333
00:17:50,699 --> 00:17:51,499
Where-- Yeah, yeah.
334
00:17:51,639 --> 00:17:53,559
Cliff: yeah, to share
a room with my buddy.
335
00:17:54,019 --> 00:17:57,449
But even then, the whole room was 250.
336
00:17:57,509 --> 00:17:59,089
It-- What a time.
337
00:17:59,459 --> 00:18:00,099
Kyle: What a time
338
00:18:00,399 --> 00:18:01,169
Cliff: What a time.
339
00:18:01,439 --> 00:18:03,899
We got this record the day it came out.
340
00:18:03,899 --> 00:18:10,269
We bought that thing, drove it straight
back to our house, put it on in my
341
00:18:10,279 --> 00:18:18,549
friend's stereo inside of that room, and
with a total lack of irony, unseriousness,
342
00:18:18,589 --> 00:18:23,439
anything, we sat our asses down and we
listened from the first second to the
343
00:18:23,439 --> 00:18:28,289
very last moment of this record, and
all we did was, like, make eyes at each
344
00:18:28,289 --> 00:18:32,839
other when s**t would happen and go,
"Oh, s**t." so it's hard to express,
345
00:18:32,839 --> 00:18:39,529
like for me, this record in particular
is such a, an absolute searing memory,
346
00:18:39,819 --> 00:18:47,119
not only as a piece of music, but as
like a very specific moment in time.
347
00:18:47,829 --> 00:18:50,769
This was-- I was 20 years old, right?
348
00:18:51,059 --> 00:18:52,489
Yeah, I was 20 years old.
349
00:18:52,789 --> 00:18:54,179
I was about to turn 21.
350
00:18:54,739 --> 00:18:59,619
Like, I had just made a r- you
know, who cares about this, right?
351
00:18:59,619 --> 00:19:02,889
But like, empathize with
me for a second, listener.
352
00:19:02,919 --> 00:19:06,189
Like, I had just made a lot of
changes in my life and had decided
353
00:19:06,189 --> 00:19:07,529
to switch up a lot of s**t.
354
00:19:07,815 --> 00:19:12,596
and, uh, not a lot of folks were into
the changes I was making necessarily.
355
00:19:12,866 --> 00:19:15,826
It was just like a really weird time
where you need a lot of energy to
356
00:19:15,826 --> 00:19:19,426
try to make whatever decisions you
think you need to make for yourself.
357
00:19:19,796 --> 00:19:21,756
For me, I felt like I
needed to make them then.
358
00:19:22,096 --> 00:19:26,689
I was in the middle of like beginning
that uphill battle and then this.
359
00:19:27,215 --> 00:19:31,625
I have this record and this band,
and my friends love it, and they--
360
00:19:31,635 --> 00:19:33,555
this band tours all the time.
361
00:19:33,975 --> 00:19:40,045
And to your point earlier about like
seeing them live, like The reason
362
00:19:40,125 --> 00:19:44,545
that I think I cemented all of this
is 'cause not long after I first heard
363
00:19:44,935 --> 00:19:48,805
Silent Circus and then Alaska actually I
stayed with you, Kyle, after this show.
364
00:19:48,805 --> 00:19:50,385
I came down and saw them in Atlanta.
365
00:19:50,599 --> 00:19:51,839
Kyle: With Norma Jean?
366
00:19:52,269 --> 00:19:53,229
That-- Was it that show?
367
00:19:53,501 --> 00:19:54,271
Cliff: Is that right?
368
00:19:55,463 --> 00:19:57,123
You know, it would've been 2005.
369
00:19:57,811 --> 00:19:58,561
Kyle: Oh, no.
370
00:19:58,561 --> 00:20:00,011
So it would've been somebody else.
371
00:20:00,071 --> 00:20:01,931
The one-- I-- One that I did not go
372
00:20:02,393 --> 00:20:04,603
Cliff: I wonder if that
was the Red Chord show
373
00:20:05,279 --> 00:20:05,929
Kyle: That sounds right.
374
00:20:08,645 --> 00:20:11,195
Cliff: Either way, my main takeaway
after listening to this band first
375
00:20:11,245 --> 00:20:17,505
on my iPod Color was no f**king
way this is happening live.
376
00:20:18,805 --> 00:20:20,635
Absolutely no way.
377
00:20:21,045 --> 00:20:25,605
And there were bands at the time who
this would sort of become a meme later
378
00:20:25,605 --> 00:20:29,065
with like Rings of Saturn and stuff, but
like metal bands were learning to use
379
00:20:29,065 --> 00:20:33,635
computers, and all of a sudden people
could play really fast on an album.
380
00:20:33,875 --> 00:20:36,546
And then, I truly don't know
how many shows I've been to,
381
00:20:36,546 --> 00:20:38,116
but well over 500 at this point.
382
00:20:38,146 --> 00:20:39,996
I have seen a lot of metal bands.
383
00:20:41,245 --> 00:20:43,085
Most of them are bad, actively.
384
00:20:44,655 --> 00:20:49,065
And if they're not bad, they have good
songs that are really, really hard to
385
00:20:49,065 --> 00:20:53,285
reproduce because they did some cool
production stuff, and it's, like, really
386
00:20:53,285 --> 00:20:55,455
hard to make it all translate, right?
387
00:20:55,685 --> 00:20:59,035
Unless you're, to the degree of, like,
Kirk Blue that we've talked about,
388
00:20:59,035 --> 00:21:02,415
like, where it's you're managing the
whole stage sound and everything.
389
00:21:02,705 --> 00:21:05,215
Until you get to that point,
guitarists were still playing
390
00:21:05,215 --> 00:21:06,755
with loud-ass tube amps.
391
00:21:06,775 --> 00:21:08,455
Like, stage volume was insane.
392
00:21:08,475 --> 00:21:10,955
Everything sounded really,
really bad, honestly.
393
00:21:11,745 --> 00:21:16,855
it was an unironic treat to see a
great metal band and to see someone
394
00:21:16,855 --> 00:21:22,795
who was playing clean and actually on
time, and for there to be five dudes
395
00:21:22,795 --> 00:21:27,155
who were doing ripping s**t all at
one time at incredible speed, and they
396
00:21:27,155 --> 00:21:31,964
were entirely in sync Just sort of
like changed the trajectory of already
397
00:21:31,964 --> 00:21:33,824
what I was thinking about in my life.
398
00:21:34,174 --> 00:21:39,350
And as a music student, that
set something off in me that
399
00:21:39,350 --> 00:21:41,080
created a real sense of intensity.
400
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,270
So like I looked forward to this record
401
00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:44,910
Kyle: Yeah.
402
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,110
And this may be apocryphal at this point.
403
00:21:47,130 --> 00:21:52,480
I remember somebody describing them to me
as Berkeley good but not Berkeley lame.
404
00:21:54,074 --> 00:21:54,344
Cliff: Yeah.
405
00:21:54,684 --> 00:21:55,504
Kyle: And I was like, "Okay.
406
00:21:55,844 --> 00:21:59,584
I had also forgotten that, I
think I got ahold of the leak
407
00:21:59,864 --> 00:22:06,404
before it came out because I
distinctly remember listening to it.
408
00:22:06,644 --> 00:22:13,284
I donated bone marrow the first day of
the fall semester, and I came home and
409
00:22:13,284 --> 00:22:18,094
I laid on the bed so on painkillers, and
that was the first time that I listened
410
00:22:18,094 --> 00:22:23,724
to this record, and it opens with this,
psychedelic queen piano, which, like,
411
00:22:23,914 --> 00:22:29,494
very distinctly one of my favorite things
about BTBAM to that point was "All Bodies"
412
00:22:30,114 --> 00:22:35,414
drops you in exactly what I envision
taking the Limitless drug would feel like.
413
00:22:36,484 --> 00:22:40,684
I can picture my neurons lighting
up when that song comes on.
414
00:22:42,398 --> 00:22:42,888
Cliff: President.
415
00:22:42,934 --> 00:22:43,354
Kyle: Yeah.
416
00:22:43,914 --> 00:22:46,034
And it just hits and your pupils dilate.
417
00:22:46,374 --> 00:22:53,674
And so when it starts on, like, a, a
kind of Pink Floyd-type note and it
418
00:22:53,684 --> 00:22:56,243
builds, it kind of overwhelmed me.
419
00:22:56,243 --> 00:22:58,383
It made me a little emotional immediately.
420
00:22:58,723 --> 00:23:06,207
and I was so pumped by the, like, shot
of creative energy that, after having,
421
00:23:06,207 --> 00:23:10,237
like, kind of an intense procedure on
a Monday and still being in a decent
422
00:23:10,237 --> 00:23:15,724
amount of pain, I went to a Lamb of God
and Hatebreed show that Friday, still on
423
00:23:15,724 --> 00:23:17,854
the painkillers, which got me through.
424
00:23:18,054 --> 00:23:21,524
And I, like, the bandages bled
through my shirt a little.
425
00:23:21,974 --> 00:23:24,134
I think Behemoth was
also on that show maybe.
426
00:23:24,144 --> 00:23:26,134
It was like, it was a really intense vibe.
427
00:23:26,474 --> 00:23:28,044
but I rem- I was, like, buoyed.
428
00:23:28,144 --> 00:23:32,684
I listened to "Colors" all that
week, and it was so psychedelic
429
00:23:32,714 --> 00:23:38,634
and intense and like, "Oh my God,
music can be this," you know?
430
00:23:39,504 --> 00:23:42,781
And I'll never forget that feeling
for the rest of my li- I just
431
00:23:42,781 --> 00:23:48,335
remember, like, 2007 being a
really pivotal musical year for me.
432
00:23:48,335 --> 00:23:50,855
I've just always had it pinned that way.
433
00:23:51,195 --> 00:23:52,725
Came alive and expanded.
434
00:23:53,012 --> 00:23:54,622
the underground was really healthy.
435
00:23:54,652 --> 00:23:58,352
You know, when people talk about there
being a scene, there was a great scene.
436
00:23:58,352 --> 00:24:03,622
There were so many cool small and
mid-level bands then that were, like,
437
00:24:03,732 --> 00:24:05,392
to your point, touring like dogs.
438
00:24:05,732 --> 00:24:07,622
so it was a really rich time in that way.
439
00:24:07,622 --> 00:24:13,216
But, like, There were other records
that I personally gravitated more to
440
00:24:13,216 --> 00:24:18,006
than this record in 2007, but like
when I think back to 2007 and that
441
00:24:18,006 --> 00:24:23,808
time in our lives, this exemplifies
everything about m- what music meant to
442
00:24:23,848 --> 00:24:28,795
us individually and collectively, but
also like where our lives were and what
443
00:24:28,795 --> 00:24:31,345
the, what the world kind of felt like.
444
00:24:31,713 --> 00:24:35,444
And all of that came flooding back
in, no pun intended, full Technicolor
445
00:24:35,474 --> 00:24:38,164
as I listened to this record for
the first time again in a long time.
446
00:24:38,504 --> 00:24:44,647
Cliff: This record's concept and
lyrics are not especially deep, and
447
00:24:44,647 --> 00:24:46,107
I think that that's fine to say.
448
00:24:46,567 --> 00:24:50,007
But the overall point
is well drawn out, man.
449
00:24:50,007 --> 00:24:55,057
Like, they were in a place where they
are expressing, " I see the path that
450
00:24:55,097 --> 00:25:00,140
drains the color, and I'm gonna go over
here instead." And, like, even if there
451
00:25:00,140 --> 00:25:05,970
were various graceful and less graceful
attempts to express that verbally one
452
00:25:05,970 --> 00:25:10,779
way or the other, to your larger point,
making this record and then putting
453
00:25:10,779 --> 00:25:15,649
it in the ears of people like us
made us go, "Music can be like this."
454
00:25:16,171 --> 00:25:20,361
My relationship to music changed
as a result of this band and this
455
00:25:20,361 --> 00:25:25,361
record and what they did, not only
then but a- after that and all
456
00:25:25,361 --> 00:25:26,801
the music they've made since then.
457
00:25:27,321 --> 00:25:34,241
And it has… Even when I don't
necessarily love something that
458
00:25:34,241 --> 00:25:38,261
they've made, they've made so
much music, and it always has that
459
00:25:38,261 --> 00:25:40,511
feeling of music can be like this.
460
00:25:41,150 --> 00:25:45,310
every single song has a discrete
concept of music can be like this,
461
00:25:45,770 --> 00:25:48,390
even all the way back to, you know,
some of their earlier stuff that
462
00:25:48,390 --> 00:25:49,760
they may not love as much anymore.
463
00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:56,911
But especially this conception, of these
five and eventually four people making
464
00:25:56,911 --> 00:26:01,699
this music together is something that
I'm actually literally very grateful for.
465
00:26:02,059 --> 00:26:05,769
And I'm really glad to just, like,
talk about it for a bit and try to
466
00:26:05,769 --> 00:26:10,249
encourage some other people to give
this a shot on the off chance that
467
00:26:10,279 --> 00:26:15,629
even one person has a moment like we
had in relationship to any of this.
468
00:26:15,975 --> 00:26:16,345
Kyle: Yeah.
469
00:26:16,375 --> 00:26:20,965
I mean, we talked about before recording,
for me, the two things that I wanted to
470
00:26:20,965 --> 00:26:24,025
get out of this conversation that we've
been ha- wanting to have for a long time
471
00:26:24,035 --> 00:26:31,295
are like, Cliff, it's always nice to
just be able to share when something was
472
00:26:31,295 --> 00:26:33,925
deeply personal and meaningful to you.
473
00:26:33,925 --> 00:26:38,645
I think other others like can
get something out of the warmth
474
00:26:38,965 --> 00:26:41,275
of a genuine moment like that.
475
00:26:41,615 --> 00:26:44,085
And I appreciate it as your friend
and as somebody that was there
476
00:26:44,085 --> 00:26:45,405
for like every second of this.
477
00:26:45,745 --> 00:26:49,365
It's been a long time and, but it, but
it's like a formative thing for us.
478
00:26:49,375 --> 00:26:50,955
So I like, I, I think
it's cool on that level.
479
00:26:51,565 --> 00:26:55,045
But the other thing is there are
scores of categories of people that
480
00:26:55,055 --> 00:26:57,215
could be like, "This is not for me."
481
00:26:57,585 --> 00:27:03,725
Like 64-minute heavily technical
opus in the vocabulary of
482
00:27:03,815 --> 00:27:06,425
technical progressive metal.
483
00:27:07,135 --> 00:27:11,145
It's a very active, it like,
it's a super active listen.
484
00:27:11,845 --> 00:27:16,953
It's most of the time not a
very casual listen, you know,
485
00:27:17,163 --> 00:27:18,673
casual listening experience.
486
00:27:19,013 --> 00:27:20,973
so what's in it for me?
487
00:27:21,313 --> 00:27:26,351
And I think there are a number of ways
where it's like no matter what stripe
488
00:27:26,351 --> 00:27:32,462
of music fan you are, I think you can
find a way to lo- like the, something
489
00:27:32,462 --> 00:27:34,482
in this will make you love music more.
490
00:27:34,592 --> 00:27:37,532
Even if you listen to it a handful
of times and never come back to it.
491
00:27:37,872 --> 00:27:43,922
This reminded me through all of the
layers of cyn- cynicism and anhedonia
492
00:27:44,382 --> 00:27:49,072
built up over the years, like,
yeah, s**t, music can be like this.
493
00:27:49,222 --> 00:27:51,702
Like the human spirit is capable of this
494
00:27:52,042 --> 00:27:54,185
It's a real message in a bottle, I guess
495
00:27:54,525 --> 00:27:59,099
Cliff: I wanna really accentuate
what you said as the intro to
496
00:27:59,099 --> 00:28:00,689
whatever we'll talk about next.
497
00:28:00,949 --> 00:28:07,549
This, to me, is some of the best
active listening music to ever exist.
498
00:28:07,830 --> 00:28:14,947
this is to me, in the pantheon of
really well-done jazz, not free jazz,
499
00:28:15,137 --> 00:28:16,847
something that has more structure,
500
00:28:17,199 --> 00:28:17,399
Kyle: Yeah
501
00:28:18,147 --> 00:28:25,367
Cliff: jazz classical music, things that
play with the idea of this note means a
502
00:28:25,367 --> 00:28:29,537
thing, and I'm going to introduce it to
you now and then bring it back to you
503
00:28:29,537 --> 00:28:33,277
later, and because of how I introduced
it the first time, it actually means
504
00:28:33,287 --> 00:28:34,597
something different the next time.
505
00:28:35,075 --> 00:28:37,815
all five of them are doing
what I just described in
506
00:28:37,815 --> 00:28:39,355
varying amounts the entire time
507
00:28:39,856 --> 00:28:40,226
Kyle: Yeah
508
00:28:40,504 --> 00:28:45,854
Cliff: So if there's ever been one, there
have been plenty of records that will
509
00:28:45,854 --> 00:28:52,224
work for this, but if there's ever been
one I really wish if you are listening
510
00:28:52,454 --> 00:28:57,764
and you have even the smallest inkling
that you could stretch in a direction
511
00:28:57,764 --> 00:29:01,634
that could handle something like this
for a minute, try to find yourself
512
00:29:01,634 --> 00:29:07,384
time, like if you've got an airplane,
a car ride, a commute, something,
513
00:29:07,486 --> 00:29:08,576
Kyle: A long run.
514
00:29:08,724 --> 00:29:09,814
Cliff: Yeah, sure.
515
00:29:10,074 --> 00:29:14,634
Any- anything where you can get at least
sort of 20 minutes out of this at least,
516
00:29:15,194 --> 00:29:20,864
and ju- like just trust me and let
your mind go blank and listen to this.
517
00:29:21,334 --> 00:29:27,083
Because the way that it engages you as a
listener is fundamentally different than
518
00:29:27,083 --> 00:29:32,453
nearly every record we've talked about,
with the exception of maybe Fela Kuti
519
00:29:32,453 --> 00:29:36,163
and arguably someone like John Coltrane.
520
00:29:36,343 --> 00:29:42,524
But, but really like m- much more
so in vein of stories are being told
521
00:29:42,554 --> 00:29:48,654
through extraordinarily proficient
musicianship, and whether it delights
522
00:29:48,654 --> 00:29:53,464
you or not gets to sort of be beside
the point if you'll follow along.
523
00:29:53,934 --> 00:29:57,874
And for me at least, I don't know,
maybe there's a joke to be told about
524
00:29:58,484 --> 00:30:03,504
listening, us listening to this at the
ripe age of 19 and coming away with
525
00:30:03,514 --> 00:30:04,924
the feeling that it's psychedelic.
526
00:30:04,934 --> 00:30:11,180
But to me, this is incredibly tangible
and tactile and in spatial, in a true
527
00:30:11,190 --> 00:30:16,860
active listening situation, I can
trace what's happening and listen to it
528
00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:20,770
differently, and it feels like a story
that's being told to me, even though,
529
00:30:20,770 --> 00:30:27,030
like we said, this music itself is in
a sense circular and not like linear or
530
00:30:27,030 --> 00:30:28,810
progressive the way that most albums are.
531
00:30:29,150 --> 00:30:30,270
It's not going anywhere
532
00:30:30,562 --> 00:30:30,972
Kyle: Right.
533
00:30:31,412 --> 00:30:32,872
Uh, so a couple of things.
534
00:30:32,882 --> 00:30:41,282
One, I would double down and say this
is the most, like, precise, deliberate
535
00:30:41,439 --> 00:30:44,372
music that we're probably going to cover.
536
00:30:44,452 --> 00:30:48,752
It's as ex- as exacting and
sort of surgical as anything
537
00:30:49,092 --> 00:30:50,865
in the oeuvre of TuneDig.
538
00:30:52,538 --> 00:30:54,188
I mean that in a complimentary way.
539
00:30:55,199 --> 00:31:00,085
And as a bit of a lore moment, if you
go all the way back to episode eight
540
00:31:00,095 --> 00:31:05,565
and you listen to the "A Love Supreme"
episode, you can hear something that
541
00:31:05,595 --> 00:31:12,175
Cliff has introduced t- to the group
collectively, and me going, "Oh.
542
00:31:12,865 --> 00:31:13,475
Oh.
543
00:31:14,035 --> 00:31:20,745
Oh," about something else highly
technical and complex and deliberate and
544
00:31:20,745 --> 00:31:23,495
spiritual in the way that it's deliberate.
545
00:31:24,045 --> 00:31:31,015
And that episode, in a circular way,
is only possible because this band
546
00:31:31,015 --> 00:31:33,385
was introduced to me a long time ago.
547
00:31:33,385 --> 00:31:38,087
So, like, my journey into even
appreciating complex, precise
548
00:31:38,097 --> 00:31:41,707
things, which is not the way that
I listen to or appreciate anything
549
00:31:41,707 --> 00:31:46,727
in the world, is strictly 100%
because of Cliff's influence.
550
00:31:46,747 --> 00:31:51,357
And so if I, as somebody who actively
thinks I don't enjoy this type of
551
00:31:51,357 --> 00:31:55,887
active listening, really, really
love this record I hope that go- one,
552
00:31:55,887 --> 00:31:58,277
you can trust that this is one of
Cliff's favorite things, and Cliff is
553
00:31:58,277 --> 00:31:59,987
extremely smart and has great taste.
554
00:32:00,207 --> 00:32:00,537
Great.
555
00:32:00,567 --> 00:32:02,227
That should be the thing of its own merit.
556
00:32:02,227 --> 00:32:05,987
But as somebody who would, like, probably
stand to be kind of a hater of this kind
557
00:32:05,987 --> 00:32:10,437
of thing, and there's a lot of adjacencies
to this type of music, like prog and
558
00:32:10,437 --> 00:32:12,587
stuff, where I'm like, "Nope. Peace."
559
00:32:13,063 --> 00:32:13,413
Cliff: Yep
560
00:32:14,657 --> 00:32:15,317
Kyle: this is great.
561
00:32:15,389 --> 00:32:18,599
I agree with you that this is one
of the best things ever, and it
562
00:32:18,599 --> 00:32:20,589
continues to light me up just as much.
563
00:32:20,619 --> 00:32:24,979
I have listened to this record
on repeat so many times, and,
564
00:32:25,419 --> 00:32:27,439
and I've done that for years.
565
00:32:27,779 --> 00:32:33,519
the other thing is, like, there may
be an other end of the spectrum of
566
00:32:33,529 --> 00:32:40,051
TuneDig listener, like a big ears type
person that is like, some of this s**t
567
00:32:40,051 --> 00:32:45,899
might be kinda obvious to you, some
of the, the motifing and whatever.
568
00:32:46,219 --> 00:32:49,959
To which I would say, "Don't
be such a nerd." You know?
569
00:32:51,486 --> 00:32:56,696
I was trying to think of analogs in
other domains for me, and with "The
570
00:32:56,706 --> 00:33:03,146
Odyssey" just having come out, I thought
about Christopher Nolan and reading
571
00:33:03,156 --> 00:33:08,196
the discourse around "The Odyssey" and
Christopher Nolan films, and there being
572
00:33:08,206 --> 00:33:12,116
whole schools of thought between people
that are like, "This is the smartest thing
573
00:33:12,116 --> 00:33:16,086
that I've ever seen," and it sent me down
the rabbit hole to become a film lover.
574
00:33:16,304 --> 00:33:17,684
it showed me the moves.
575
00:33:17,694 --> 00:33:23,544
He's really good at showing some of
the moves around motifs and repetition
576
00:33:23,754 --> 00:33:28,294
and Easter egging and all sorts
of-- Like, I can see the structure.
577
00:33:28,553 --> 00:33:34,073
it's classical and beautiful in that way,
as he can, like, reveal it to normies.
578
00:33:34,113 --> 00:33:35,673
There's such an elegance to that.
579
00:33:36,023 --> 00:33:39,883
But then there's film school
purists that are like, "That's
580
00:33:39,883 --> 00:33:40,963
a boneheaded way to do it.
581
00:33:41,013 --> 00:33:44,683
Like, you can't serve it up to them too
much." And it's like, that's stupid.
582
00:33:45,223 --> 00:33:49,973
If it makes anybody who might not have
noticed before notice a thing, that,
583
00:33:49,993 --> 00:33:51,843
that works on every level for me.
584
00:33:51,913 --> 00:33:52,843
That's wonderful.
585
00:33:53,143 --> 00:33:57,753
There's always gonna be more
obtuse s**t out there for you.
586
00:33:58,223 --> 00:34:02,383
I happen to think the way that they do
everything that they execute on this
587
00:34:02,383 --> 00:34:08,883
record is quite smart and elegantly
handled, and it didn't start revealing
588
00:34:08,883 --> 00:34:12,193
itself to me for quite some time.
589
00:34:12,533 --> 00:34:16,523
as somebody who doesn't, like, play
instruments, I only notice "Oh, that's
590
00:34:16,523 --> 00:34:20,973
the thing from 'Son of Nothing' from
before. Oh, they're actually ending
591
00:34:20,973 --> 00:34:25,119
it on the same chord that they started
it on." so wherever you fall on that
592
00:34:25,119 --> 00:34:29,019
spec- like, you're not too dumb for
this record and you're not too smart for
593
00:34:29,019 --> 00:34:29,639
this record.
594
00:34:29,999 --> 00:34:30,819
You know what I mean?
595
00:34:31,557 --> 00:34:34,867
it's a record that will make
everybody better if you just
596
00:34:34,897 --> 00:34:37,067
don't be an asshole about it.
597
00:34:37,521 --> 00:34:41,231
Cliff: If my body wasn't made of this
record, I would just end the podcast there
598
00:34:41,251 --> 00:34:42,931
'cause that's pretty much the takeaway
599
00:34:45,493 --> 00:34:50,403
Kyle: I mean, to make a challenging
thing that is ostensibly for everybody
600
00:34:50,413 --> 00:34:54,103
that I would like go out on a limb and
I would like go to people on the s- you
601
00:34:54,103 --> 00:34:56,583
know, the, the things where they walk
up to people and they're like, "What are
602
00:34:56,583 --> 00:35:00,223
you listening to right now? What do you
rate that song out of 10?" And they'd
603
00:35:00,223 --> 00:35:01,993
sort of do the like pass it on chain.
604
00:35:02,393 --> 00:35:05,673
I would Billy on the Street people with
"Between the Buried and Me" and just be
605
00:35:05,673 --> 00:35:11,413
like, "No, ma'am, I get that you hate
this right now, but like can I just send
606
00:35:11,413 --> 00:35:13,963
you home with a download code for it?
607
00:35:14,593 --> 00:35:17,363
'Cause I would like for you to
listen to it on a different Saturday
608
00:35:17,423 --> 00:35:19,873
when you're not being accosted by
some man on the street telling you
609
00:35:19,873 --> 00:35:21,553
to listen to progressive metal."
610
00:35:22,752 --> 00:35:25,232
Cliff: Plus, if you wanna choose
your own adventure, and at this point
611
00:35:25,242 --> 00:35:29,272
even the thought of the type of metal
we've talked about is distasteful
612
00:35:29,272 --> 00:35:31,772
to you, "Viridian" is your track.
613
00:35:32,012 --> 00:35:33,202
You can just go there.
614
00:35:33,642 --> 00:35:37,632
You can just go there and appreciate
them being good in all the ways we've
615
00:35:37,632 --> 00:35:42,132
already talked about without ever
approaching the style of music that we've
616
00:35:42,132 --> 00:35:45,752
talked about for the most part, which
is one of my favorite things about them.
617
00:35:46,062 --> 00:35:50,132
They tend to throw at least one track
like that onto a lot of records,
618
00:35:50,538 --> 00:35:54,448
Kyle: Viridian, a deep blue-green
derived from the Latin viridis, meaning
619
00:35:54,458 --> 00:35:56,648
youthful, vigorous, and full of life.
620
00:35:57,318 --> 00:36:00,380
That's what this record
is meant to make you feel.
621
00:36:00,620 --> 00:36:05,660
I also kept getting this image
of like a BT BAM pride sticker.
622
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,670
Like, BT, BT BAM is for everyone, and
it's just got the colors rainbow in it.
623
00:36:11,210 --> 00:36:13,480
Uh, uh, what's that website
we keep talking about?
624
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,970
Tunedigmerch.com, tdmerch.com.
625
00:36:15,980 --> 00:36:17,270
Like, the, that needs to go
626
00:36:17,450 --> 00:36:19,000
Cliff: The hypothetical
thing we're talking
627
00:36:19,213 --> 00:36:21,928
Kyle: The hypothe- yeah, our
hypothetical, bootleg merch
628
00:36:21,928 --> 00:36:22,378
store.
629
00:36:22,758 --> 00:36:23,998
BT BAM is for everyone
630
00:36:25,748 --> 00:36:27,048
Cliff: I've never gotten
to tell anybody this.
631
00:36:27,458 --> 00:36:31,718
Uh, one day last year during
Pride, I went somewhere where it
632
00:36:31,718 --> 00:36:33,478
would've mattered, and I wore a
633
00:36:33,510 --> 00:36:34,200
Kyle: I'm sorry.
634
00:36:34,270 --> 00:36:37,090
There's, there's a story for that.
635
00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:38,780
I didn't know there was
gonna be a story for
636
00:36:38,830 --> 00:36:39,320
Cliff: Oh yeah.
637
00:36:39,510 --> 00:36:42,750
Oh yeah, and I wore a color shirt
that's, uh, it's white with a bunch
638
00:36:42,750 --> 00:36:44,330
of houses on it, but like it, it's
639
00:36:44,610 --> 00:36:44,890
Kyle: It's got
640
00:36:44,890 --> 00:36:45,440
the rainbow.
641
00:36:45,780 --> 00:36:47,050
Cliff: full rainbow across it.
642
00:36:47,050 --> 00:36:50,360
And someone very sincerely
just looked at me and was like,
643
00:36:50,370 --> 00:36:51,390
"I really like your shirt.
644
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:57,200
Thank you." And I was like, "I, m- I
do, I-- Yes, you're welcome." You know?
645
00:36:58,240 --> 00:36:58,970
thumbs up.
646
00:36:59,850 --> 00:37:00,900
Like, we're good.
647
00:37:00,940 --> 00:37:02,360
I didn't mean… Never mind.
648
00:37:02,490 --> 00:37:02,930
Cool.
649
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:03,500
Yes.
650
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:04,250
Great.
651
00:37:05,668 --> 00:37:08,626
Kyle: This is an accident, but I'm
not-- But that doesn't mean anything.
652
00:37:08,626 --> 00:37:09,286
I'm with you.
653
00:37:09,336 --> 00:37:09,996
It's, yeah.
654
00:37:10,146 --> 00:37:10,386
Cliff: Yeah.
655
00:37:11,746 --> 00:37:14,916
Kyle: Very… Another
Cliff Seal does Larry David
656
00:37:15,116 --> 00:37:15,796
Cliff: I was about to
657
00:37:15,866 --> 00:37:16,286
Kyle: Cliff your
658
00:37:16,576 --> 00:37:18,646
Cliff: Seinfeld, not that
there's anything wrong with that.
659
00:37:19,036 --> 00:37:20,106
Everyone should be free to do
660
00:37:20,226 --> 00:37:23,346
Kyle: There's something super right with
that, but that's not why I wore this.
661
00:37:23,376 --> 00:37:24,296
But I love you.
662
00:37:24,826 --> 00:37:25,786
Have a great day
663
00:37:26,154 --> 00:37:30,154
Cliff: To the larger non sequitur
though, no band in existence has created
664
00:37:30,154 --> 00:37:34,074
more conversation from me wearing
their shirt in public than this one.
665
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:35,650
Kyle: I've seen happen.
666
00:37:35,924 --> 00:37:40,244
Cliff: that's a statistical shift because
of how many, uh, relatively speaking
667
00:37:40,244 --> 00:37:44,534
shirts from this band that I own and
therefore wear, but nevertheless, I
668
00:37:44,544 --> 00:37:46,804
get great conversations no matter what.
669
00:37:47,144 --> 00:37:49,344
And I'm a person who doesn't
like to talk to you in public,
670
00:37:49,464 --> 00:37:51,074
so that's saying something
671
00:37:51,870 --> 00:37:55,300
Kyle: Y- if you go to enough shows
with band shirts on, you learn
672
00:37:55,730 --> 00:38:00,450
which bands have fan bases that
you don't want to engage with.
673
00:38:01,140 --> 00:38:04,820
I'm not going to name check any of the
bad ones, but I've definitely worn some
674
00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:07,740
of their shirts over the years, and
that's been a like, "Oh, that s**t's
675
00:38:07,770 --> 00:38:13,240
going to Goodwill now." But BTN is not
one of those, to the point of the sticker.
676
00:38:13,822 --> 00:38:17,710
typically smart and also
interesting people approach you.
677
00:38:17,710 --> 00:38:18,850
I've, I've seen it happen.
678
00:38:18,850 --> 00:38:22,430
I've always been like: Wow, that went,
that w- that was actually quite delightful
679
00:38:23,526 --> 00:38:24,026
Cliff: Yes.
680
00:38:24,516 --> 00:38:29,916
Pun intended this band has more Queen
energy than anyone I can think of
681
00:38:30,142 --> 00:38:31,042
Kyle: Oh my God
682
00:38:31,368 --> 00:38:34,558
Cliff: Honestly, that is first of all,
for whatever it's worth with folks
683
00:38:34,558 --> 00:38:37,438
who are now interested in what we were
talking about and this band, if you
684
00:38:37,438 --> 00:38:40,628
would like a, a rubric, it is Queen.
685
00:38:40,828 --> 00:38:46,458
They do say it directly and often,
and ended up covering Queen.
686
00:38:46,468 --> 00:38:49,178
They were playing "Bohemian
Rhapsody" for a while on tour.
687
00:38:49,568 --> 00:38:54,268
Like this, this is a band who
wants to and did think about
688
00:38:54,268 --> 00:38:56,788
music the way that Queen did.
689
00:38:57,458 --> 00:39:01,558
And in that sense, hopefully you can
start to draw in a little bit of what we
690
00:39:01,558 --> 00:39:02,908
were talking about before with The Like.
691
00:39:03,498 --> 00:39:07,998
It's serious because it's good, but
it's not too serious because it takes
692
00:39:07,998 --> 00:39:10,708
itself so seriously that it can't laugh.
693
00:39:10,898 --> 00:39:13,828
It's definitely laughing and
there's, there's definitely
694
00:39:13,828 --> 00:39:15,358
a fun energy with it all.
695
00:39:17,172 --> 00:39:22,528
So honestly, my, my most soothing
thing would be to just start doing
696
00:39:22,528 --> 00:39:26,228
the timestamps that Kyle told
me weeks ago I needed to make
697
00:39:26,228 --> 00:39:28,358
sure and bring to this episode,
698
00:39:28,784 --> 00:39:31,034
Kyle: There's never been a
case where it would make more
699
00:39:31,034 --> 00:39:32,514
sense to just walk through it
700
00:39:32,808 --> 00:39:33,128
Cliff: A hundred-- Oh no,
701
00:39:33,224 --> 00:39:36,954
Kyle: and like, otherwise it's just
a big block of music where you have
702
00:39:36,954 --> 00:39:40,494
to listen five times before you're
like, "That was the thing for me."
703
00:39:41,118 --> 00:39:41,538
Cliff: Oh, yeah.
704
00:39:42,003 --> 00:39:42,274
Kyle: yeah.
705
00:39:42,274 --> 00:39:45,704
So th- this is like, let, let's just
prime you to hone in on some things
706
00:39:45,992 --> 00:39:49,622
Cliff: And bless your heart, this will
save you at least some time, uh, in the
707
00:39:49,622 --> 00:39:54,302
post-production of this episode instead
of having to like map when I'm like, "So
708
00:39:54,302 --> 00:39:58,432
when it goes meedley-mee into do, do,
do," and then you having to like listen
709
00:39:58,432 --> 00:40:00,572
to 18-minute songs to try to find that
710
00:40:00,628 --> 00:40:01,958
Kyle: Just scrub through it, yeah.
711
00:40:02,178 --> 00:40:07,388
Listen to Color, listen to
Colors on 1.5X on 45 RPM
712
00:40:07,782 --> 00:40:08,322
Cliff: Jesus.
713
00:40:08,944 --> 00:40:12,784
but before doing some of that and
therefore trying to describe some of
714
00:40:12,784 --> 00:40:16,884
the music, I think… first of all, if
you're down at this point, might as well
715
00:40:16,884 --> 00:40:20,434
pause this podcast and go listen to it if
you've never listened to it before, fine.
716
00:40:20,744 --> 00:40:26,374
If not, like trying to talk more about
what it sounds like and then how they
717
00:40:26,374 --> 00:40:30,604
described writing this music back then
I think paints a pretty cool picture
718
00:40:30,604 --> 00:40:34,064
that if you'd rather, and you've
still never heard any of this stuff
719
00:40:34,084 --> 00:40:37,614
before, you can just kinda listen
to this whole thing and take it in.
720
00:40:37,898 --> 00:40:42,798
and really take whatever we're about to
share with you into a true deep active
721
00:40:42,808 --> 00:40:47,298
first listen, which I think will be
at the very least really interesting.
722
00:40:47,928 --> 00:40:49,888
Probably more interesting
than anything else you've done
723
00:40:49,888 --> 00:40:51,788
musically in recent memory.
724
00:40:51,808 --> 00:40:54,858
And if I'm wrong, I'd love
to hear from you, no lie.
725
00:40:55,268 --> 00:40:59,188
What, what beat this other than
the Rosalía record for you this
726
00:40:59,188 --> 00:40:59,528
year?
727
00:40:59,914 --> 00:41:01,094
Kyle: very long windup.
728
00:41:01,154 --> 00:41:01,914
I hated it.
729
00:41:01,954 --> 00:41:02,294
Yeah.
730
00:41:03,688 --> 00:41:08,088
Listen, we've given you nothing but heat
this year, so like I don't wanna hear it.
731
00:41:08,088 --> 00:41:10,048
Just go in any other direction.
732
00:41:10,598 --> 00:41:12,438
Go back to FKA Twigs.
733
00:41:12,888 --> 00:41:17,008
Advance forward to the Shania
Twain episode once that's out,
734
00:41:17,227 --> 00:41:20,437
we got something for everybody,
brother, gender non-specific
735
00:41:20,928 --> 00:41:24,078
Cliff: Kyle spoiled one of the later
episodes that I'm pretty excited about.
736
00:41:24,088 --> 00:41:28,098
This, this trio of this and the
next two episodes are, is just
737
00:41:28,098 --> 00:41:29,488
some of my favorite stuff in life.
738
00:41:29,648 --> 00:41:31,898
In fact, one more aside, man.
739
00:41:32,108 --> 00:41:36,528
I keep belly laughing to myself
in preparation for this episode
740
00:41:36,548 --> 00:41:40,978
thinking so much out there,
gestures broadly, is wrong.
741
00:41:41,538 --> 00:41:46,598
And yet somewhere in my life, I've
constructed a reality where my friend
742
00:41:46,638 --> 00:41:49,958
is sending me messages like, "Hey
bro, you listen to that Colors record
743
00:41:49,958 --> 00:41:54,468
enough this week to take some notes
on it?" Yeah, motherfucker, I have.
744
00:41:54,628 --> 00:41:56,968
Yes, I have, and I love you.
745
00:41:58,088 --> 00:42:02,538
And I love our friendship in this
part of my life, so thank you.
746
00:42:02,918 --> 00:42:03,048
Kyle: It's
747
00:42:03,078 --> 00:42:05,878
when you, when you love what
you do, you never work a day in
748
00:42:05,888 --> 00:42:07,988
your life here at TuneDig Corp.
749
00:42:09,986 --> 00:42:10,166
Cliff: Too
750
00:42:10,166 --> 00:42:10,806
bad I have to
751
00:42:10,988 --> 00:42:13,818
Kyle: And now, as Shania Twain
famously said about "Between the
752
00:42:13,818 --> 00:42:15,568
Buried and Me," let's go, girls
753
00:42:16,836 --> 00:42:23,256
Cliff: Everything here needs two to three
phrases as a, like, container to describe
754
00:42:23,256 --> 00:42:27,826
a thing as opposed to ever being able to
use a specific word or idea at one time.
755
00:42:28,276 --> 00:42:32,926
So similarly, even when this band
was recording this record back in
756
00:42:32,926 --> 00:42:36,436
2007 there were two descriptions
of what this could be called.
757
00:42:36,436 --> 00:42:39,356
One of them was adult contemporary
progressive death metal.
758
00:42:40,182 --> 00:42:44,782
Uh, the other one was new wave
polka grunge, which is… Sure.
759
00:42:45,162 --> 00:42:50,833
Though, to our many points about the
serious not seriousness and sort of how
760
00:42:50,833 --> 00:42:55,033
this exploded in the friends group at
the time, one of the things that we'll
761
00:42:55,033 --> 00:42:59,083
talk about later is like all the weird
little interludes that they throw into
762
00:42:59,083 --> 00:43:02,933
music that last all of 15 seconds and
then you never hear from them again,
763
00:43:03,213 --> 00:43:07,803
and there's never anything like it again
and whatever, and how oddly that strikes
764
00:43:07,803 --> 00:43:09,903
people on first listen, which it will.
765
00:43:10,563 --> 00:43:17,153
But how interesting it became when they
would play those interludes live and
766
00:43:17,153 --> 00:43:20,913
you would think it wouldn't work or
it wouldn't be funny, and instead what
767
00:43:20,913 --> 00:43:24,943
I'm here telling you is this record
that I'm talking to you about, people
768
00:43:24,943 --> 00:43:30,873
would show up ready for a hoedown
because it happens in 30 seconds in
769
00:43:30,883 --> 00:43:33,323
one song in one part of this record.
770
00:43:33,473 --> 00:43:34,993
It was a whole thing
771
00:43:35,132 --> 00:43:38,502
Kyle: I mean, you fully have to
wait for a 30-minute windup for
772
00:43:38,502 --> 00:43:40,052
it to happen for 30 seconds.
773
00:43:40,052 --> 00:43:43,442
Yeah, it's, it's waiting in line
for two hours for the 60-second
774
00:43:43,462 --> 00:43:44,922
Batman rollercoaster ride
775
00:43:45,204 --> 00:43:49,174
Cliff: but only if you had memorized
the entire rollercoaster and
776
00:43:49,174 --> 00:43:52,364
could stand in the place where you
knew it would happen in advance.
777
00:43:52,446 --> 00:43:52,976
Kyle: That's right
778
00:43:53,278 --> 00:43:58,618
Cliff: the gate to be a, like, decent
fan of this band was so high and
779
00:43:58,618 --> 00:44:02,128
everyone was just like, "Yeah, so
we're just gonna like human chain over
780
00:44:02,128 --> 00:44:04,138
it then and we're all inside, yeah?"
781
00:44:04,988 --> 00:44:09,633
And like, perhaps one of the last
true meshes, of the nerds and
782
00:44:09,643 --> 00:44:13,723
the guys who wear gym shorts, uh,
happened when this band was doing
783
00:44:13,723 --> 00:44:16,113
this record, and it was a true moment.
784
00:44:16,423 --> 00:44:21,893
But point being, like so many weird things
happen and that's sort of the point of it.
785
00:44:22,223 --> 00:44:27,173
So bringing forward especially some of the
quotes again directly from them while they
786
00:44:27,173 --> 00:44:33,773
were recording, there is intentionality
behind it being so strange in the sense
787
00:44:33,773 --> 00:44:39,113
that this is what this band conceptualized
as their best at that moment.
788
00:44:39,563 --> 00:44:44,115
And I think it's great now, you know,
almost 20 years on, listening to some
789
00:44:44,115 --> 00:44:47,255
of their interviews in the years since,
they'll sort of joke about this record
790
00:44:47,255 --> 00:44:50,665
like, "Yeah, back then we were trying
to play as many notes as we possibly
791
00:44:50,665 --> 00:44:54,415
could at one time all the time,"
and they'd sort of make fun of it.
792
00:44:54,725 --> 00:44:59,045
And yet what we'll talk about a little
later as well is like, yeah, but they
793
00:44:59,045 --> 00:45:03,545
still love this record for sure to the
degree that they made a sequel record.
794
00:45:03,861 --> 00:45:06,871
Kyle: And tw- and anniversary
tour on this record.
795
00:45:07,111 --> 00:45:07,461
Cliff: Yeah.
796
00:45:07,601 --> 00:45:11,731
Like th- this is not a, a
painfully tolerated nostalgia.
797
00:45:12,401 --> 00:45:16,041
This is, "Oh no, that was
what we were doing in 2007,"
798
00:45:16,291 --> 00:45:16,561
Kyle: Yeah.
799
00:45:16,979 --> 00:45:18,469
Cliff: and everything
about that feels right.
800
00:45:18,519 --> 00:45:22,259
So they were saying about this
record, quote "'Colors' was very
801
00:45:22,259 --> 00:45:25,699
much our attempt at a do or die
statement, and we had to establish our
802
00:45:25,699 --> 00:45:29,389
identity and be who we really wanted
to be in order to have a career.
803
00:45:30,039 --> 00:45:34,159
And we were writing a musi-
musically conceptual, no rules,
804
00:45:34,219 --> 00:45:35,829
nothing left on the table record.
805
00:45:36,509 --> 00:45:39,659
We weren't only going to write a
record, we were going to live in
806
00:45:39,659 --> 00:45:41,559
it and eat, sleep, and breathe it.
807
00:45:41,809 --> 00:45:45,189
We were going to push ourselves and no one
was going to hear from us until we brought
808
00:45:45,189 --> 00:45:49,699
the album full circle and delivered
it as a complete piece." we've covered
809
00:45:49,699 --> 00:45:53,809
moments artistically in other people's
careers, you know, on this podcast talking
810
00:45:53,819 --> 00:45:57,549
about moments where people identified
like this, "I'm about to do the thing.
811
00:45:58,299 --> 00:45:59,429
buckle the f**k up.
812
00:45:59,659 --> 00:46:00,659
I know I'm ready.
813
00:46:01,039 --> 00:46:02,559
I've got enough space to do it.
814
00:46:02,919 --> 00:46:06,129
I'm about to do the thing
now." And that was this.
815
00:46:06,159 --> 00:46:07,034
Like, I just--
816
00:46:07,067 --> 00:46:10,337
Kyle: I mean, I th- I think about voodoo
when I hear things like that, where it's
817
00:46:10,337 --> 00:46:14,357
like, "Peace out. You won't see me for
a while. It takes what it takes, but
818
00:46:14,357 --> 00:46:17,307
when we come back, we are absolutely
gonna blow the doors off this thing."
819
00:46:18,357 --> 00:46:18,497
Cliff: Yeah.
820
00:46:18,557 --> 00:46:21,177
Although their speed to
creating these records is
821
00:46:21,273 --> 00:46:23,443
Kyle: No- notably faster than D'Angelo.
822
00:46:23,503 --> 00:46:24,033
Yeah, yeah.
823
00:46:24,217 --> 00:46:24,377
Cliff: Yeah.
824
00:46:24,617 --> 00:46:26,957
Yeah, like when they talked
about Alaska, they talked about,
825
00:46:27,377 --> 00:46:30,807
"We, we put that together pretty
quickly." Like, uh, y- uh, okay.
826
00:46:32,297 --> 00:46:36,087
You mean one of the most complex technical
records that came out that entire year?
827
00:46:36,387 --> 00:46:39,197
we we put them together
really quickly." Yeah, sure.
828
00:46:39,637 --> 00:46:39,857
Okay.
829
00:46:40,831 --> 00:46:42,031
So they're trying to lock in.
830
00:46:42,071 --> 00:46:44,531
They literally described it as being
the first record where they felt
831
00:46:44,571 --> 00:46:48,431
totally locked in as a band, 'cause
Alaska was the first record with Blake
832
00:46:48,451 --> 00:46:49,991
and Dusty and Dan, like we mentioned.
833
00:46:50,091 --> 00:46:55,625
So, Blake on drums, Dusty on
guitar, like rhythm guitar, but that
834
00:46:55,765 --> 00:46:57,885
really sells short what Dusty does.
835
00:46:57,945 --> 00:47:01,845
Dusty is an incredible guitarist and
does a lot of really cool s**t on this
836
00:47:01,885 --> 00:47:06,765
record, and is much more textural support.
837
00:47:07,404 --> 00:47:08,704
he's got the effects.
838
00:47:09,204 --> 00:47:11,884
He's creating a lot of
shape behind the music.
839
00:47:11,964 --> 00:47:16,584
Uh, and then Dan, one of, one of the best
bassists on planet Earth, just period.
840
00:47:16,947 --> 00:47:19,917
so that was their first record was
Alaska with them, so they felt like
841
00:47:19,947 --> 00:47:22,947
this was the first one where they
were really locked in, and they got to
842
00:47:22,987 --> 00:47:24,497
know each other as writing partners.
843
00:47:24,937 --> 00:47:26,747
But that they, they felt like
they realized that they were
844
00:47:26,787 --> 00:47:29,327
really working together well.
845
00:47:29,347 --> 00:47:33,477
But then they're talking about
their own music and, you know, it…
846
00:47:33,507 --> 00:47:36,747
Juxtaposing this with, you know, some
of the things we brought forward from
847
00:47:36,787 --> 00:47:40,547
Twigs last episode in the way that
people talk about their own music.
848
00:47:41,128 --> 00:47:44,888
this is sort of a cool defense of like,
"I'll be like King Crimson if I f**king
849
00:47:44,988 --> 00:47:49,085
want to. Here's why." and so they, they
said, quote, "You know, for bands from
850
00:47:49,115 --> 00:47:52,975
the '70s, it was very normal to have
eight- and 11-minute songs. Nobody gave
851
00:47:52,985 --> 00:47:56,875
Queen s**t for 'Bohemian Rhapsody.'" Which
is a cool thing to say for two reasons.
852
00:47:57,295 --> 00:47:59,155
One, because objectively good example.
853
00:47:59,275 --> 00:48:02,355
Two, because you just compared yourself
to Queen, and I f**king dig it.
854
00:48:03,531 --> 00:48:04,321
I love that.
855
00:48:05,050 --> 00:48:08,690
but then they go on to talk about like,
a- and I think this is an even easier
856
00:48:08,690 --> 00:48:10,510
way to introduce ideas like this.
857
00:48:10,580 --> 00:48:16,304
They said, "There are times where we're
alternating between measures of 5/4,
858
00:48:16,304 --> 00:48:20,220
7/4, and 5/8, and that can all happen
within the confines of one riff."
859
00:48:20,870 --> 00:48:23,100
So I wanted to start like
drawing all this out, right?
860
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,910
They're feeling very locked in as a band.
861
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:31,010
This is what they mean to write,
and already they kind of carve
862
00:48:31,010 --> 00:48:33,320
out, first of all, we're doing
10-minute songs, f**k you.
863
00:48:33,770 --> 00:48:36,750
Second of all, we're, we're gonna
play in weird time signatures.
864
00:48:36,900 --> 00:48:40,768
And then they would go on to talk about,
like Paul especially, that like when
865
00:48:40,768 --> 00:48:45,538
they were kids, they would write in
odd time signatures to try to be weird.
866
00:48:45,958 --> 00:48:49,938
But now, at this point, like he was saying
literally, quote, "People don't believe
867
00:48:49,938 --> 00:48:54,458
us. It's just natural. We just write
music and it ends up being in some bizarre
868
00:48:54,458 --> 00:48:58,658
meter, and oftentimes it might even
change measure to measure," which is true.
869
00:48:58,918 --> 00:49:03,018
But here's one thing I want you to lock
in on, listener, and hopefully person
870
00:49:03,018 --> 00:49:06,777
who didn't appreciate this band as much
as you're going to in 30 more minutes.
871
00:49:07,315 --> 00:49:10,745
quote, "One thing we try to do
rhythmically, and our drummer is really
872
00:49:10,745 --> 00:49:16,025
good at it," understatement of the f**king
year, "is to make it groove in a way that
873
00:49:16,025 --> 00:49:18,385
doesn't sound like it's an odd meter.
874
00:49:18,655 --> 00:49:22,565
So not necessarily in 4/4,
but a groovable odd meter.
875
00:49:22,935 --> 00:49:27,485
And so there are times where we're
alternating between 5/4, 7/4, and 5/8.
876
00:49:27,485 --> 00:49:30,475
Again, and that can all happen
in the confines in, of one riff.
877
00:49:30,695 --> 00:49:34,325
And the real challenge is to put
that all together and make it sound
878
00:49:34,325 --> 00:49:40,145
seamless like one solid groove." my
friends they're building riffs out of
879
00:49:40,145 --> 00:49:43,145
like concrete on top of one another.
880
00:49:43,587 --> 00:49:45,727
they're building meta riffs.
881
00:49:46,097 --> 00:49:51,507
Like the thing that Matt Pike writes,
that Jimi Hendrix writes that sounds so
882
00:49:51,507 --> 00:49:56,477
like monstrous as an individual, they're
like, "Okay, but what if that was like
883
00:49:56,477 --> 00:50:00,577
a fractal that was made of a bunch of
different pieces and all the pieces inside
884
00:50:00,577 --> 00:50:02,077
of that were made of like tungsten?"
885
00:50:02,765 --> 00:50:03,065
Kyle: Yeah.
886
00:50:03,445 --> 00:50:08,112
I remember reading an interview with
Lamb of God in a paper magazine, 'cause
887
00:50:08,122 --> 00:50:12,142
I was standing in Kroger, and they were
talking about the concept of riff farming
888
00:50:12,152 --> 00:50:16,742
that they had learned from Meshuggah,
where you notated the riff and then
889
00:50:16,742 --> 00:50:21,792
you, like, physically lifted beats or
whatever out of it and moved it around
890
00:50:21,792 --> 00:50:23,562
so that it changed the rhythm of it.
891
00:50:23,882 --> 00:50:29,878
And I was able to, visualize Tetris
blocks of just, like, play note here,
892
00:50:29,918 --> 00:50:34,078
and it changed the way that I thought
about riffs and heard riffs forever.
893
00:50:34,513 --> 00:50:38,453
BT BAM does that in three
dimensions, like n- not in
894
00:50:38,703 --> 00:50:42,283
whatever l- linear 2D sheet music.
895
00:50:42,513 --> 00:50:46,653
To your point about fractals, like,
I can hear it, it'll move left
896
00:50:46,663 --> 00:50:50,563
and then it'll move up, and then
two lines will intersect, it's
897
00:50:50,563 --> 00:50:52,743
like a tesseract all the time.
898
00:50:53,171 --> 00:50:55,310
Cliff: Tesseract is Too
good of a way to put it.
899
00:50:55,856 --> 00:50:58,413
so then that's one key piece, I think.
900
00:50:58,433 --> 00:51:00,133
I'm sort of building up some…
901
00:51:00,513 --> 00:51:01,433
Kyle: first principles
902
00:51:01,607 --> 00:51:02,067
Cliff: yeah.
903
00:51:02,303 --> 00:51:05,783
it's hard for me to understand
this record as a challenging one.
904
00:51:05,823 --> 00:51:09,533
I understand that's weird
about me, not you, royally.
905
00:51:09,973 --> 00:51:12,423
So what I'm trying to do is appreciate
906
00:51:12,543 --> 00:51:15,753
Kyle: yeah, I, I also like what,
what I was saying earlier, I don't
907
00:51:15,753 --> 00:51:19,633
want us to assign a value judgment on
whether it is or like, it's not gonna
908
00:51:19,643 --> 00:51:22,663
go down like a pop record for sure.
909
00:51:23,253 --> 00:51:25,363
But there is some amazing pop stuff on it.
910
00:51:25,425 --> 00:51:25,855
Cliff: Yeah
911
00:51:26,459 --> 00:51:29,609
Kyle: uh, it's challenging in the
sense that it's not super easy,
912
00:51:29,679 --> 00:51:35,515
but, who are we to say how easy
or not it might go down for you?
913
00:51:35,515 --> 00:51:38,325
So like when we say something
like it's a challenging record,
914
00:51:38,385 --> 00:51:39,905
that's not a reflection of you.
915
00:51:39,905 --> 00:51:44,565
That's just trying to put it in contrast
with a like, I can put it on w- you
916
00:51:44,565 --> 00:51:48,945
know, for the first time, first thing
in the morning, no context, no prep,
917
00:51:48,945 --> 00:51:52,225
whatever, and it'll be absolutely fine
and I'll get what I need out of it.
918
00:51:52,926 --> 00:51:57,856
I think it does need a little like a m- a
moment of meditation and focus before you
919
00:51:58,086 --> 00:51:58,466
Cliff: Yeah
920
00:51:58,711 --> 00:51:59,131
Kyle: go.
921
00:51:59,827 --> 00:52:00,267
Cliff: Yes.
922
00:52:00,327 --> 00:52:00,797
Well said.
923
00:52:00,797 --> 00:52:01,187
Thank you.
924
00:52:01,927 --> 00:52:06,687
So to that end, whether you find it
challenging or not, we'll let you
925
00:52:06,687 --> 00:52:11,617
decide, but one thing I think we can say
relatively objectively is it is complex.
926
00:52:11,897 --> 00:52:16,807
And so as opposed to usually we can do
things like listen to this instrument,
927
00:52:17,227 --> 00:52:19,737
listen to this part, focus on this.
928
00:52:20,247 --> 00:52:23,697
Uh, what I'm telling you, my friend,
is there are five individual streams
929
00:52:23,707 --> 00:52:27,207
of things to listen to that go
on for 64 minutes in a circle.
930
00:52:27,497 --> 00:52:29,097
So that's not gonna work for me here.
931
00:52:29,457 --> 00:52:29,697
So
932
00:52:29,725 --> 00:52:32,885
Kyle: At the very least,
it's a very physical listen.
933
00:52:33,265 --> 00:52:37,945
Like trying to keep up with one, let alone
multiple simultaneously things happen.
934
00:52:37,955 --> 00:52:40,465
It is an endurance listen for sure.
935
00:52:40,535 --> 00:52:41,955
It is challenging on that level.
936
00:52:41,955 --> 00:52:46,965
Even as somebody who really, really likes
this album and has known it well for a
937
00:52:46,965 --> 00:52:51,415
long time, I would get back around to the
like second listen and be like, "Whoa,
938
00:52:51,425 --> 00:52:53,395
my God, these guys are going for it."
939
00:52:53,907 --> 00:52:54,517
Cliff: Yeah.
940
00:52:54,956 --> 00:52:59,151
so we're building up a little
bit then of pre-muscle.
941
00:52:59,161 --> 00:53:02,371
We're doing some stretches so you
can take this in as best you can.
942
00:53:02,581 --> 00:53:07,451
So we've, we've talked about the time
signatures and how they are approaching
943
00:53:07,451 --> 00:53:13,371
that by thinking about writing naturally
feeling odd time signatures inside
944
00:53:13,371 --> 00:53:17,791
of a container that feels normally
4/4 a lot of the time, and then they
945
00:53:17,791 --> 00:53:19,201
talk about shifting that around.
946
00:53:19,201 --> 00:53:23,811
So I mentioned earlier that this band
does a lot of like, "Oh, here's a thing
947
00:53:23,811 --> 00:53:28,261
that I'm gonna do later for you." This
is a very, very, very, very, very, very
948
00:53:28,261 --> 00:53:30,821
important part of listening to this band.
949
00:53:31,011 --> 00:53:31,981
It's awesome.
950
00:53:32,361 --> 00:53:37,691
They do it inside of songs, but they'll
also do it across the album in different
951
00:53:37,691 --> 00:53:42,211
shapes and times, including some moments
where they do them in diff- like one
952
00:53:42,211 --> 00:53:44,961
is a little slower than the one that
happens right after that, or they
953
00:53:44,961 --> 00:53:49,101
spread it out, or it's half as much, or
another instrument is doing the thing.
954
00:53:49,111 --> 00:53:54,081
Like if you get delight out of that
sort of thing, it's, incredible here.
955
00:53:54,581 --> 00:53:59,291
And so they are merging these time
signatures together in a way that doesn't
956
00:53:59,291 --> 00:54:01,041
feel like they're putting them together.
957
00:54:01,281 --> 00:54:05,021
But the other piece of the puzzle that
I think helps make more sense of it I've
958
00:54:05,021 --> 00:54:09,131
expressed like jazz and classical in
terms of structure, but especially if
959
00:54:09,131 --> 00:54:14,947
you're less intuitively familiar with
what I would mean by that, your first
960
00:54:14,947 --> 00:54:20,117
place to go if this interests you, but
Paul Waggoner was talking about again,
961
00:54:20,127 --> 00:54:24,537
how they, approach how they write here,
and he said, "In the case of Pat Metheny,
962
00:54:24,957 --> 00:54:28,477
I just thought he wrote really good
songs, and I love the structure of his
963
00:54:28,477 --> 00:54:34,407
music and the perspective of creating
very linear soundscapes as opposed to
964
00:54:34,887 --> 00:54:37,447
verse-chorus, verse-chorus type songs."
965
00:54:37,827 --> 00:54:41,777
So that's my best way of saying
there are no verse-chorus,
966
00:54:41,797 --> 00:54:44,507
verse-chorus songs on this record.
967
00:54:44,746 --> 00:54:50,582
we have departed standard pop structure
by an order of magnitude everywhere,
968
00:54:50,602 --> 00:54:52,492
no matter where you start here.
969
00:54:53,094 --> 00:54:59,046
Kyle: But what I would say to a not
sure person is I was thinking about
970
00:54:59,636 --> 00:55:03,846
if this record came out now, somebody
would probably make a TikTok supercut
971
00:55:03,846 --> 00:55:09,526
of all the novelty parts of the
record, all the non-metally stuff.
972
00:55:09,981 --> 00:55:10,801
That's 1A.
973
00:55:11,311 --> 00:55:20,550
1B is there is enough, 90s grunge,
Smashing Pumpkins, Blind Melon,
974
00:55:20,993 --> 00:55:26,005
really interesting, straightforward,
smart college rock type stuff.
975
00:55:26,045 --> 00:55:31,027
Oh, like alternative rock, broad hand
wave, that that could be… There's
976
00:55:31,027 --> 00:55:34,717
like an EP's worth of that on here
where you're like: "Wow, that could just
977
00:55:34,727 --> 00:55:40,747
be some band's songs," but then it's
woven into big, complex compositions.
978
00:55:41,127 --> 00:55:45,597
I say that to say, I continue to
wonder, 20 years on as a fan of
979
00:55:45,597 --> 00:55:49,697
this band, why do I like this band
and not other bands like them?
980
00:55:50,137 --> 00:55:54,437
And I think it's because of that
thing, is like they just do normal
981
00:55:54,447 --> 00:55:56,927
people stuff , normal people stuff.
982
00:55:57,617 --> 00:56:02,897
They just play regular music in
it just to like, "Well, we can do
983
00:56:02,897 --> 00:56:07,534
that, but other bands can't do this.
Watch this." And that, keeps it fun.
984
00:56:07,534 --> 00:56:12,214
So there's a fun quality with like
the genre hopping or whatever,
985
00:56:12,214 --> 00:56:15,713
which I actually think is quite
tasteful, and they get in and out.
986
00:56:15,793 --> 00:56:20,062
It's just like a spice in the d- you know,
or a, a course on the menu type thing.
987
00:56:20,442 --> 00:56:23,642
But then they als- there's
also just like good song craft.
988
00:56:24,022 --> 00:56:28,784
I think about something like "Son
of Nothing," that chorus, big
989
00:56:28,794 --> 00:56:34,234
quotes around chorus, that, that
sung refrain being an example.
990
00:56:34,582 --> 00:56:37,762
or like the piano chords that
open and close the record,
991
00:56:37,993 --> 00:56:42,783
make me think of Counting Crows
from whom they got their name.
992
00:56:42,997 --> 00:56:43,327
Cliff: Yeah.
993
00:56:43,413 --> 00:56:43,933
Kyle: Um-
994
00:56:45,976 --> 00:56:46,310
Cliff: Yep
995
00:56:46,654 --> 00:56:50,243
Kyle: So that's a like
hang in there thing for me.
996
00:56:50,253 --> 00:56:54,723
So like if all the stuff that you're
saying is cool and I think is the
997
00:56:54,723 --> 00:56:56,393
reason to listen to the record.
998
00:56:56,771 --> 00:57:01,411
Again, it's the, "Oh my God, I can't
believe human fingers and brains can
999
00:57:01,411 --> 00:57:06,901
do this." but then there's just like
cool regular music stuff in, you know,
1000
00:57:06,901 --> 00:57:09,411
there, there's just like I've left my…
1001
00:57:09,411 --> 00:57:12,291
I think about like Death Grips
doing the augmented reality game.
1002
00:57:12,291 --> 00:57:16,151
It's like I've left my favorite
mixtape for you in this classical
1003
00:57:16,151 --> 00:57:21,629
composition, inside a tesseract
cube between dimensions.
1004
00:57:21,959 --> 00:57:22,769
Come find it.
1005
00:57:23,329 --> 00:57:23,809
See ya.
1006
00:57:24,189 --> 00:57:28,419
Cliff: I mean, this, this band did
in fact release a NASA space suit
1007
00:57:28,479 --> 00:57:31,869
branded with itself with the NASA logo.
1008
00:57:32,147 --> 00:57:32,917
Kyle: they did, didn't they?
1009
00:57:35,881 --> 00:57:36,231
Cliff: yeah.
1010
00:57:36,277 --> 00:57:39,737
if you take whatever the Death
Grips energy is and shift it
1011
00:57:39,737 --> 00:57:44,477
away from scary over to vegan
in North Carolina on the slider,
1012
00:57:44,713 --> 00:57:45,663
Kyle: vegan bookstore
1013
00:57:45,887 --> 00:57:47,507
Cliff: yeah, you'll get more of this.
1014
00:57:47,517 --> 00:57:47,607
Yeah.
1015
00:57:48,297 --> 00:57:51,267
People who like to make coffee
and write riffs that scare you.
1016
00:57:51,393 --> 00:57:51,773
Kyle: That's right.
1017
00:57:51,783 --> 00:57:53,193
Daytime death grips.
1018
00:57:54,243 --> 00:57:56,173
But the mor- morning show death grips
1019
00:57:56,962 --> 00:58:01,702
Cliff: Uh, something like that for
sure that's hopefully enough, I think,
1020
00:58:02,082 --> 00:58:08,172
intro into the idea of foreshadowing
and, like, musical counterpoints.
1021
00:58:08,612 --> 00:58:10,362
They'll do this a lot.
1022
00:58:10,722 --> 00:58:15,042
This is what makes it interesting
to actively listen to.
1023
00:58:15,362 --> 00:58:19,422
It works different with your brain
than when you're just listening to
1024
00:58:19,422 --> 00:58:24,442
something a little bit more casually
and you lock onto, like, the sort of
1025
00:58:24,512 --> 00:58:26,872
underlying beat, rhythm, whatever.
1026
00:58:26,902 --> 00:58:30,082
You c- you sort of grab
the 30% of whatever you're
1027
00:58:30,082 --> 00:58:32,182
listening to and lock into that.
1028
00:58:32,392 --> 00:58:34,182
That's, like, not gonna work here.
1029
00:58:34,842 --> 00:58:35,522
It doesn't
1030
00:58:35,658 --> 00:58:38,518
Kyle: there's not a quick like, "Oh,
I get it. All right, let's move on."
1031
00:58:38,910 --> 00:58:39,220
Cliff: Right.
1032
00:58:39,590 --> 00:58:44,240
And eventually, a treat will be if you
listen to this enough, you'll actually
1033
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:47,020
find the 4/4 that they keep talking about.
1034
00:58:47,670 --> 00:58:50,100
And I think… You know, I hadn't
thought about it this way, but I,
1035
00:58:50,100 --> 00:58:51,380
I think this is fair enough to say.
1036
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:54,110
We try to avoid conjecture, but
I'm about to say it in a cutesy
1037
00:58:54,110 --> 00:58:55,280
way, and I think I'm okay with it.
1038
00:58:55,820 --> 00:58:58,850
They want you to like this record, though.
1039
00:58:59,418 --> 00:58:59,768
Kyle: Yeah
1040
00:59:00,293 --> 00:59:02,283
Cliff: are plenty of bands
who have written challenging
1041
00:59:02,293 --> 00:59:06,153
things with the express intent
of making you uncomfortable.
1042
00:59:06,533 --> 00:59:11,143
for every bit of evidence that we
have, that is not what was intended
1043
00:59:11,265 --> 00:59:11,975
Kyle: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
1044
00:59:12,005 --> 00:59:12,805
You can feel it.
1045
00:59:12,815 --> 00:59:17,265
There's a like, we want-- We think
everybody is capable of liking this.
1046
00:59:17,965 --> 00:59:19,795
There's almost an assumption.
1047
00:59:20,275 --> 00:59:21,535
It's a foregone conclusion.
1048
00:59:21,535 --> 00:59:22,995
Why would anybody not like that?
1049
00:59:23,005 --> 00:59:25,275
Why would anybody find this challenging?
1050
00:59:25,407 --> 00:59:25,827
Cliff: Yeah.
1051
00:59:26,295 --> 00:59:28,665
Kyle: This is self-evidently great music,
1052
00:59:29,045 --> 00:59:31,215
Cliff: we'll plant Easter
eggs in it for you.
1053
00:59:31,457 --> 00:59:31,807
Kyle: Yeah.
1054
00:59:32,384 --> 00:59:37,690
Cliff: It's beautiful To that end,
there are two big chunks of thing that
1055
00:59:37,690 --> 00:59:39,420
I'd like to relay from here on out.
1056
00:59:39,860 --> 00:59:42,510
Kyle, I'll look for your help in
structuring where to put these
1057
00:59:42,510 --> 00:59:43,890
two big old chunks of thing.
1058
00:59:44,150 --> 00:59:46,810
One of them is let's talk about songs.
1059
00:59:47,820 --> 00:59:50,860
The other one is let's talk
about everywhere that you can go
1060
00:59:50,860 --> 00:59:56,210
from here because I am not shy
this episode about any of that.
1061
00:59:56,570 --> 01:00:01,020
Not least because I can just like
talk about this catalog like I'm a
1062
01:00:01,020 --> 01:00:05,100
BMW salesman on the car lot right
now ready to put you in one today.
1063
01:00:05,540 --> 01:00:06,500
I got this, dude.
1064
01:00:06,980 --> 01:00:08,720
I practiced for this my whole life.
1065
01:00:10,854 --> 01:00:13,474
Kyle: What that meme
the like slaps the hood.
1066
01:00:13,484 --> 01:00:16,334
You can fit so many
arpeggios in this bad boy.
1067
01:00:17,766 --> 01:00:20,936
Cliff: 10 blast beats per
second smacks you on the ass
1068
01:00:22,670 --> 01:00:23,040
Kyle: okay.
1069
01:00:23,070 --> 01:00:27,350
Well, no, n-no way to, no,
no way out but through.
1070
01:00:27,380 --> 01:00:31,045
So we'll, we'll see how long
it's taken when we're there.
1071
01:00:31,105 --> 01:00:32,565
So "Phone Born".
1072
01:00:33,215 --> 01:00:35,235
You start with some piano chords.
1073
01:00:35,615 --> 01:00:36,645
I'll just keep waiting.
1074
01:00:36,655 --> 01:00:41,055
You'll just keep waiting in the cold,"
which is very poignant after you start
1075
01:00:41,055 --> 01:00:44,205
it back on the second full listen.
1076
01:00:44,315 --> 01:00:47,995
I-I'll keep waiting for the record that I
wanna hear, the music that I wanna hear.
1077
01:00:47,995 --> 01:00:49,775
Like, oh f**k it, I'll go make it myself.
1078
01:00:50,155 --> 01:00:53,625
I texted you in the lead up to this
being like, "Is this just Fellini's
1079
01:00:53,625 --> 01:00:58,865
'8 1/2?' Is that what this record--
Is this a record about the nature of
1080
01:00:58,865 --> 01:01:03,865
inspiration and being at a crossroads
about what it is to express yourself as
1081
01:01:03,865 --> 01:01:07,845
a way of existing in this world?" And
you were like, " Yeah, way to get it 19
1082
01:01:07,845 --> 01:01:11,065
years later, bro." Nicely, respectfully.
1083
01:01:11,565 --> 01:01:11,875
Yeah.
1084
01:01:11,905 --> 01:01:15,585
Like, "Yes, I'm glad you finally get
it. Welcome. BT Bambus for everyone."
1085
01:01:15,871 --> 01:01:18,731
Cliff: N- well, to be fair to me,
not until I Google Fellini's "8
1086
01:01:18,731 --> 01:01:23,281
1/2" to make the damn sure that
I knew what I, what I was talking
1087
01:01:23,577 --> 01:01:26,427
Kyle: You're smart enough that I knew
you would get it from context clues.
1088
01:01:26,497 --> 01:01:28,537
Like it's, it's a thing
about making things.
1089
01:01:28,921 --> 01:01:30,231
Cliff: I'm culturally adjacent
1090
01:01:30,241 --> 01:01:30,691
to things.
1091
01:01:30,691 --> 01:01:30,941
I know
1092
01:01:31,127 --> 01:01:31,227
Kyle: yeah.
1093
01:01:31,777 --> 01:01:32,297
Yeah, yeah.
1094
01:01:32,417 --> 01:01:33,077
The pizza guy?
1095
01:01:33,347 --> 01:01:34,777
Fellini's Pizza?
1096
01:01:36,041 --> 01:01:38,631
that kind of made it click
though on "Phoneborn."
1097
01:01:39,155 --> 01:01:39,665
Cliff: For sure.
1098
01:01:40,325 --> 01:01:44,035
And first of all, just hearing you
give a little play-by-play to the
1099
01:01:44,035 --> 01:01:47,315
intro is really making me wanna do
the, like, "Mystery Science Theater"
1100
01:01:47,315 --> 01:01:49,895
version of album listening like
we've talked about for so long.
1101
01:01:50,225 --> 01:01:51,605
Could really crush it with this one.
1102
01:01:51,905 --> 01:01:54,285
Just a lot of like, wait
until he does this thing."
1103
01:01:54,719 --> 01:01:55,179
Kyle: Oh, yeah.
1104
01:01:55,759 --> 01:01:58,609
Do you remember, am I
Mandela affecting this?
1105
01:01:59,209 --> 01:02:02,359
They had visuals, like Crack
the Sky had visuals, right?
1106
01:02:02,419 --> 01:02:05,949
It was like old weird footage
and it had the, it had a color
1107
01:02:05,949 --> 01:02:07,829
layered over it for each section.
1108
01:02:08,319 --> 01:02:10,949
It was like compiled footage
that they played behind them.
1109
01:02:11,009 --> 01:02:11,879
That was a thing,
1110
01:02:12,127 --> 01:02:12,337
Cliff: That
1111
01:02:12,337 --> 01:02:12,559
Kyle: right?
1112
01:02:12,817 --> 01:02:13,817
Cliff: that sounds right-ish.
1113
01:02:14,067 --> 01:02:16,417
They, to be fair, it's hard to remember.
1114
01:02:16,417 --> 01:02:18,407
They did not-- They still
to this day have not really
1115
01:02:18,407 --> 01:02:20,547
maintained a steady stage thing.
1116
01:02:21,097 --> 01:02:25,087
They go back and forth between
lots of lights and I don't
1117
01:02:25,087 --> 01:02:26,117
think we need these guys.
1118
01:02:26,675 --> 01:02:29,025
But yeah, th- I think they were
doing more back then for sure.
1119
01:02:30,399 --> 01:02:30,659
I,
1120
01:02:30,669 --> 01:02:30,679
Oh.
1121
01:02:30,699 --> 01:02:36,788
Kyle: I seem to remember them, like,
releasing preview visuals or something,
1122
01:02:36,798 --> 01:02:39,448
and then they used it on tour.
1123
01:02:39,448 --> 01:02:43,188
Or maybe I'm, again, maybe I'm conflating
that with what Mastodon did for "Crack
1124
01:02:43,188 --> 01:02:46,794
the Skye," which was a very similar
experience, 'cause that band also
1125
01:02:46,794 --> 01:02:50,734
went out and just played that record
for, like, over a year straight.
1126
01:02:51,898 --> 01:02:56,288
and that was also, like, sort of a
mind-exploding experience for both of us.
1127
01:02:56,348 --> 01:02:59,718
So maybe I'm conflating the
two, but I I remember-- That's
1128
01:02:59,718 --> 01:03:01,148
how I remember it in my dreams.
1129
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:04,490
Cliff: It might be that, but they also
did some cool stuff for the next record
1130
01:03:04,490 --> 01:03:07,990
after this one "The Great Misdirect."
They were doing a lot of, a lot of
1131
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,581
interesting internetty stuff back then.
1132
01:03:10,791 --> 01:03:14,461
Which again, always a constant reminder,
like whenever we're talking about a
1133
01:03:14,461 --> 01:03:17,681
record that's placed, especially in
this relative amount of time, you
1134
01:03:17,681 --> 01:03:22,532
gotta at least mentally compensate for
like we're, we're beginning the long
1135
01:03:22,532 --> 01:03:25,532
transition into streaming from here.
1136
01:03:25,732 --> 01:03:31,062
Things felt different across the board
and shows and tours felt different.
1137
01:03:31,062 --> 01:03:33,362
The way we listened to music
was still very different.
1138
01:03:33,672 --> 01:03:36,082
Uh, and even though we were using
the internet more and more to do
1139
01:03:36,082 --> 01:03:40,302
it, this was sort of like the…
This was the turn maybe from like
1140
01:03:40,322 --> 01:03:43,622
PureVolume into Facebook-ish timeframe
1141
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:47,380
Kyle: Well, this is maybe like the
third-- This is a period of time I
1142
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:52,630
think we avoided on the pod- may- not
avoided, but just like weren't focused
1143
01:03:52,630 --> 01:03:56,440
on on the podcast for a long time,
'cause it was like the, you know,
1144
01:03:56,450 --> 01:03:58,760
this is the, our heyday or whatever.
1145
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:00,430
This is the formative time of our youth.
1146
01:04:00,430 --> 01:04:01,720
Why would we focus on this?
1147
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:04,510
We should be more focused on
discovery type stuff for ourselves.
1148
01:04:05,090 --> 01:04:11,390
But I think this is like the third one
of these now with like N.E.R.D. on the
1149
01:04:11,390 --> 01:04:15,340
earliest end of this phenomenon and
Twig sort of on the latest end of this
1150
01:04:15,340 --> 01:04:20,660
phenomenon, where it's like a, a v-
there's a very real lost media issue, you
1151
01:04:20,660 --> 01:04:24,710
know, where e- even stuff in the Wayback
Machine is pseudo broken, and there's
1152
01:04:24,790 --> 01:04:29,880
all these artifacts that got generated
for things like MySpace and PureVolume
1153
01:04:29,980 --> 01:04:34,800
that are just kind of gone now, and
they ju- they just don't exist anymore.
1154
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:39,521
So it makes the time feel a little
more hallucinatory, a little more free.
1155
01:04:39,901 --> 01:04:44,055
it's cool that there's no panopticon
into what was happening culturally
1156
01:04:44,075 --> 01:04:47,325
at that time in some ways, but it's
also sort of sad 'cause people were
1157
01:04:47,335 --> 01:04:49,228
doing cool and creative things.
1158
01:04:49,871 --> 01:04:50,151
Cliff: Yep.
1159
01:04:50,241 --> 01:04:54,801
And to, to further place it in time,
w- which thinking about this record
1160
01:04:54,801 --> 01:04:59,791
reminded me of it, Between the Buried and
Me recorded a live version of "Colors"
1161
01:05:00,511 --> 01:05:04,071
that, that was released in 2008,
but it was recorded at Rocketown in
1162
01:05:04,469 --> 01:05:04,949
Kyle: Town.
1163
01:05:05,209 --> 01:05:06,489
Ugh, f**k that place
1164
01:05:07,031 --> 01:05:09,450
Cliff: Which is sure.
1165
01:05:10,340 --> 01:05:13,310
Sure, but I saw some wild bands there for
1166
01:05:13,312 --> 01:05:13,852
Kyle: Sure.
1167
01:05:13,852 --> 01:05:14,582
Yeah, yeah.
1168
01:05:14,592 --> 01:05:16,742
I saw some great shows, but also hated it.
1169
01:05:17,048 --> 01:05:19,898
Cliff: Including the Silver Mount
Zion, which seems impossible
1170
01:05:19,898 --> 01:05:20,238
now.
1171
01:05:21,078 --> 01:05:24,238
in the, in their version of
purgatory, like in a little
1172
01:05:24,248 --> 01:05:25,978
closet-esque room with 20 other
1173
01:05:26,116 --> 01:05:26,656
Kyle: Yeah.
1174
01:05:26,686 --> 01:05:29,966
That's where we saw "Every
Time I Die" that one time.
1175
01:05:30,056 --> 01:05:31,056
"Every Time I Die" and "Let
1176
01:05:31,076 --> 01:05:31,496
Cliff: Yes.
1177
01:05:31,536 --> 01:05:32,856
Kyle: feel like side
1178
01:05:32,896 --> 01:05:33,216
Cliff: yeah.
1179
01:05:33,706 --> 01:05:34,326
Oh, yeah, yeah
1180
01:05:34,706 --> 01:05:40,876
Kyle: no, we saw the first big show,
big room show that I saw there was the
1181
01:05:40,876 --> 01:05:44,496
He Is Legend show, where we were both
in the "Dungeon Witch" music video
1182
01:05:45,044 --> 01:05:45,314
Cliff: Yep.
1183
01:05:45,694 --> 01:05:46,184
Yes.
1184
01:05:46,574 --> 01:05:52,862
But I remember them playing in Rocket
Town, this would've been prior to them
1185
01:05:52,862 --> 01:05:54,512
recording the "Colors" live version.
1186
01:05:54,922 --> 01:06:00,852
But like, I took a person to that show
and said, "I want you to watch what
1187
01:06:00,852 --> 01:06:06,516
this guy f**king does when they play
'Selkies.'" Because the moment that I
1188
01:06:06,516 --> 01:06:09,806
really brought forward from the first
time I saw them is like I said they
1189
01:06:09,806 --> 01:06:15,236
played everything note for note perfect,
which was outrageous in and of itself.
1190
01:06:15,856 --> 01:06:20,566
But then "Selkies" off the Alaska album,
I mean, still to this day they play it.
1191
01:06:20,906 --> 01:06:24,996
It's pretty well known in
the fan community a- as
1192
01:06:25,730 --> 01:06:26,110
Kyle: Like a
1193
01:06:26,110 --> 01:06:27,270
signature song.
1194
01:06:27,436 --> 01:06:32,500
Cliff: yeah, But he builds through
this solo, one of the greatest guitar
1195
01:06:32,500 --> 01:06:36,800
solos I've ever heard in my life, and
builds towards where he is playing…
1196
01:06:37,530 --> 01:06:42,910
So he's playing sweeps, which are already
a really specifically difficult thing
1197
01:06:42,910 --> 01:06:46,490
to do rhythmically and involves like
a lot of coordination with your hands.
1198
01:06:46,790 --> 01:06:52,630
It's really hard to do them fast, and it
was-- They sort of pioneered how often
1199
01:06:52,630 --> 01:06:54,510
this got used in metal to begin with.
1200
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:57,700
But he builds all the way to the end
of the song, and he starts to do these
1201
01:06:57,700 --> 01:07:01,910
sweeps which go all the way through
these arpeggios, except it- when he gets
1202
01:07:01,910 --> 01:07:06,930
to the bottom, I'm like, "This, this
dude is then tapping at the same…"
1203
01:07:07,230 --> 01:07:11,220
He's doing guitar techniques together
that are hard to do separately at
1204
01:07:11,230 --> 01:07:15,490
that speed, much less all coordinated
together, and it was, once again,
1205
01:07:15,490 --> 01:07:17,560
it was just music can be like this.
1206
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:19,540
Like, playing guitar can be like this?
1207
01:07:19,860 --> 01:07:21,690
It's just outrageous.
1208
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:23,340
and so yeah.
1209
01:07:24,164 --> 01:07:28,054
I see why I'm unbearable to people
sometimes now as we talk about this.
1210
01:07:28,134 --> 01:07:31,354
Anywho, so back to the first track.
1211
01:07:31,384 --> 01:07:35,974
First of all, one of the cool things
that they do is sort of repeat
1212
01:07:35,984 --> 01:07:37,964
this approach on other records.
1213
01:07:38,234 --> 01:07:41,524
Yes, in "Colors 2" that we'll talk
about later, it's kinda shaped a lot
1214
01:07:41,524 --> 01:07:47,113
like "Colors," but also m- possibly
also my favorite record from them
1215
01:07:47,423 --> 01:07:51,543
"Parallax II" starts with this song
called "Goodbye to Everything," and
1216
01:07:51,543 --> 01:07:53,363
it's not piano, but it's the same…
1217
01:07:53,413 --> 01:07:57,643
It's the whole same structure of
the thing, like an unsuspecting
1218
01:07:57,653 --> 01:08:02,663
approach that runs exactly counter
to how "Alaska" starts, for instance
1219
01:08:02,985 --> 01:08:05,805
Kyle: And it's like a here's your
character, here's your narrator
1220
01:08:05,855 --> 01:08:07,345
type of situation as well.
1221
01:08:07,415 --> 01:08:07,725
Yeah.
1222
01:08:08,105 --> 01:08:13,960
Cliff: What I love about this one
Is that it is this cool dial that
1223
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:17,640
they start turning really slowly
throughout this first little half
1224
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:24,100
song thing, and it's just you are
listening to a metal band now.
1225
01:08:24,670 --> 01:08:26,200
N- eh, n- now.
1226
01:08:27,130 --> 01:08:29,980
And it just cranks up and goes
fast and goes fast and then drops
1227
01:08:29,980 --> 01:08:30,910
into the next song.
1228
01:08:31,038 --> 01:08:32,518
Kyle: do, do, Yeah.
1229
01:08:33,208 --> 01:08:36,628
And then, yeah, and then speeds
up into the full-blown da-da.
1230
01:08:36,808 --> 01:08:37,018
Yeah
1231
01:08:37,790 --> 01:08:42,410
Cliff: And this this is some,
i- if there is such a thing, if
1232
01:08:42,410 --> 01:08:46,570
there is such a thing as metal
scene inside baseball, it is this.
1233
01:08:47,274 --> 01:08:54,704
this is before the, like, Sunbather record
made black metal interesting to, like,
1234
01:08:55,944 --> 01:08:56,914
normie-adjacent
1235
01:08:57,096 --> 01:09:02,556
Kyle: the Liturgy white paper and
Death Heaven Sunbather ma- made every
1236
01:09:02,566 --> 01:09:05,906
insufferable blog asshole write a thing
1237
01:09:06,964 --> 01:09:07,344
Cliff: Yeah.
1238
01:09:07,344 --> 01:09:12,277
So like, I'm not saying black metal
was some special thing, unusual,
1239
01:09:12,507 --> 01:09:15,247
uh, unlike other parts of metal or
something like that, but, uh, the
1240
01:09:15,891 --> 01:09:19,141
Kyle: Well, it didn't have people
who dress like people from "Seinfeld"
1241
01:09:19,141 --> 01:09:21,721
listening to it before, generally speaking
1242
01:09:21,727 --> 01:09:22,447
Cliff: Exactly.
1243
01:09:22,827 --> 01:09:27,327
So thi- this song in particular basically
ramps you directly into that style of
1244
01:09:27,327 --> 01:09:33,577
music and then starts to drop in "Foam
Warm B" into more of what you're actually
1245
01:09:33,577 --> 01:09:35,187
gonna experience from there on out.
1246
01:09:35,567 --> 01:09:40,707
I remember two moments in this record
because of remembering it the first time
1247
01:09:40,707 --> 01:09:44,427
I ever listened to it, and, you know,
you're having that moment where you're
1248
01:09:44,427 --> 01:09:46,677
like, " I told everybody about this band.
1249
01:09:46,737 --> 01:09:47,697
This better not suck.
1250
01:09:48,717 --> 01:09:53,009
If this is bad, I'm gonna be really
embarrassed," And we know at this time, if
1251
01:09:53,009 --> 01:09:57,739
a band is gonna go any direction, they're
gonna do the Avenged Sevenfold and go,
1252
01:09:57,739 --> 01:10:01,889
"Yes, we could be good, but what if we
were this instead?" And so I was really
1253
01:10:02,029 --> 01:10:07,619
Kyle: Gets rid of the pain of being
a man I loved that s**t though.
1254
01:10:07,619 --> 01:10:08,519
I can't even front
1255
01:10:08,955 --> 01:10:09,365
Cliff: Sure.
1256
01:10:10,403 --> 01:10:13,403
Kyle: I mean, I-- like I'm the butt
rock guy of the two of us though.
1257
01:10:13,513 --> 01:10:16,193
I think only one of us has
owned a Nickelback CD before.
1258
01:10:17,788 --> 01:10:20,995
The famous Limp Bizkit
apologist, Kyle Stapleton
1259
01:10:22,256 --> 01:10:26,026
Cliff: As everyone else becomes so bad,
Limp Bizkit's like, "Look at us though.
1260
01:10:26,166 --> 01:10:28,116
Haven't done anything
too wrong lately, huh?
1261
01:10:28,978 --> 01:10:32,528
Kyle: That's a w- that's a Wes thing
more than anything, I feel like.
1262
01:10:33,478 --> 01:10:34,518
John Otto
1263
01:10:35,124 --> 01:10:38,204
Cliff: So two moments in this song
stuck out to me the very first
1264
01:10:38,204 --> 01:10:41,484
time I ever listened to them, and
they were the ones that sold me on
1265
01:10:41,484 --> 01:10:43,024
whatever was about to happen next.
1266
01:10:43,384 --> 01:10:47,834
One is right at about two minutes,
they start doing the weird
1267
01:10:47,844 --> 01:10:50,644
transitional things that we mentioned.
1268
01:10:50,644 --> 01:10:56,334
But the great part about expecting
them to play a thing you might need
1269
01:10:56,334 --> 01:11:01,114
to learn about later is that when they
don't do that, it's also interesting.
1270
01:11:01,734 --> 01:11:06,384
It makes you realize that you're listening
to it and that you're, like, involved
1271
01:11:06,434 --> 01:11:08,444
and paying attention, and it's awesome.
1272
01:11:08,794 --> 01:11:13,403
And so a good portion of their
transitions are completely strange,
1273
01:11:13,413 --> 01:11:17,623
foreign, never come back again, never
seem to have another hook, almost come
1274
01:11:17,623 --> 01:11:22,233
out of nowhere and start doing odd
things that somehow make enough sense.
1275
01:11:22,553 --> 01:11:27,663
It's like Blake, the drummer, is doing
some form of the Miles Davis there's
1276
01:11:27,663 --> 01:11:31,513
no wrong note thing and just sort of
like chasing them down the measures
1277
01:11:31,513 --> 01:11:32,593
like, "All right, I'll correct this
1278
01:11:32,888 --> 01:11:35,508
Kyle: Ba-doo-dee-da,
ba-dee-doo, ba-dee-da-doo-da-da.
1279
01:11:35,868 --> 01:11:36,048
Yeah
1280
01:11:36,703 --> 01:11:39,233
Cliff: It's like, "Okay, guys, I'm
gonna play 14 and a half notes here
1281
01:11:39,233 --> 01:11:40,843
real quick, and then we'll be back."
1282
01:11:40,913 --> 01:11:46,996
Kyle: I, started seeing after a while
the visual of like, a video wipe
1283
01:11:47,026 --> 01:11:48,596
transition when they would do the like,
1284
01:11:50,866 --> 01:11:54,156
you know, just like a
next scene type thing.
1285
01:11:54,396 --> 01:11:59,556
And I didn't clue into it for a while,
but it was just a like, yeah, let's, uh,
1286
01:11:59,596 --> 01:12:03,206
let's throw some pots and pans down some
stairs to move on to the next scene.
1287
01:12:03,586 --> 01:12:09,496
Cliff: If it helps, I think a little bit
about it as like comic book panels and
1288
01:12:09,496 --> 01:12:14,646
the way that really cool filmography will
have the like, "Oh, okay, we're gonna like
1289
01:12:14,646 --> 01:12:19,636
kinda move things in all of a sudden and
create a… Now you're not h- you're not
1290
01:12:19,636 --> 01:12:23,236
just a person with a perspective on the
scene. Now there are things happening."
1291
01:12:23,746 --> 01:12:26,086
And to me, that's a lot
of what they kinda do.
1292
01:12:26,086 --> 01:12:30,036
It's like a, a thing slides in from
the side and then either stays there
1293
01:12:30,036 --> 01:12:32,366
or it's like, "Goodbye. Never again."
1294
01:12:34,509 --> 01:12:38,949
So by the time in this song that we
reach 4:20, which is not intended to
1295
01:12:38,959 --> 01:12:42,979
be a pun, it's just like when this
thing actually happens, they play this
1296
01:12:43,359 --> 01:12:48,979
dorky ass riff breakdown thing, and I
was like this is the most ridiculous
1297
01:12:48,979 --> 01:12:50,859
thing I've ever heard and it's great."
1298
01:12:51,551 --> 01:12:53,141
Kyle: I called it the f**kery riff
1299
01:12:53,417 --> 01:12:53,577
Cliff: Yeah.
1300
01:12:54,627 --> 01:12:55,737
Did a little, little it.
1301
01:12:56,407 --> 01:12:57,027
it's just so…
1302
01:12:58,541 --> 01:13:04,498
Kyle: So here's my, here's my write-up of
"Decade of Statues." pinch harmonic riff
1303
01:13:04,518 --> 01:13:07,318
at three minutes is my first holy s**t.
1304
01:13:08,008 --> 01:13:10,958
Uh, then they half time
it, holy s**t, all caps.
1305
01:13:11,148 --> 01:13:13,998
Then they do a short clean jazz passage.
1306
01:13:14,488 --> 01:13:15,958
Oh my God, what a sequence.
1307
01:13:16,808 --> 01:13:21,078
Then the quote, "F**kery dual lead
passage." Then a justification
1308
01:13:21,078 --> 01:13:24,728
statement of all that insanity by
saying the lyrics, "It's a must these
1309
01:13:24,728 --> 01:13:26,318
days for the colors are fading."
1310
01:13:26,878 --> 01:13:30,151
we had to do all that ' cause
otherwise life would be dull.
1311
01:13:30,701 --> 01:13:31,521
Welcome to Colors.
1312
01:13:32,157 --> 01:13:36,967
Cliff: what I wish I could express to the
listener in this moment is like sitting
1313
01:13:36,977 --> 01:13:42,997
there as a person who cared about this
music, I understood the lightheartedness
1314
01:13:43,537 --> 01:13:48,047
of what was being played simply by loving
this band, understanding what they were
1315
01:13:48,047 --> 01:13:50,007
doing, and listening with intention.
1316
01:13:50,387 --> 01:13:54,617
And it paid off the way that a
f**king Christopher Nolan movie does.
1317
01:13:54,637 --> 01:13:58,347
I mean, this band is basically
"Memento." The fact that you figure out
1318
01:13:58,347 --> 01:14:02,527
"Memento" ahead of time and know what's
coming doesn't make it a bad movie.
1319
01:14:03,333 --> 01:14:03,723
Kyle: And to be
1320
01:14:03,737 --> 01:14:04,097
Cliff: a little
1321
01:14:04,978 --> 01:14:09,461
Kyle: when we say what they are doing,
we just mean f**king going for it.
1322
01:14:09,931 --> 01:14:14,991
All, just f- full, if Full Send were
a band, that's what's happening.
1323
01:14:15,642 --> 01:14:21,052
there's no big grandiose idea other
than what if we could, and then they do.
1324
01:14:21,052 --> 01:14:21,242
Cliff: Yeah.
1325
01:14:21,513 --> 01:14:25,893
Right So then out of this song straight
into something else that sounds
1326
01:14:25,893 --> 01:14:27,933
completely and immediately different,
1327
01:14:28,219 --> 01:14:28,769
Kyle: A gong.
1328
01:14:28,953 --> 01:14:29,343
Cliff: right?
1329
01:14:29,403 --> 01:14:36,093
Like a gong, a didgeridoo,
a, like Egyptian feeling
1330
01:14:36,289 --> 01:14:37,799
Kyle: Bad" yellow filter.
1331
01:14:38,269 --> 01:14:40,279
We're, we're in a foreign country now.
1332
01:14:40,659 --> 01:14:45,463
Cliff: It feels old and
prehistoric, which is cool.
1333
01:14:46,147 --> 01:14:46,707
it's hard to express.
1334
01:14:46,827 --> 01:14:49,267
Like, I'm not saying what's
happening here is like, "This is
1335
01:14:49,267 --> 01:14:52,397
the greatest music that's ever been
invented." But I am saying like,
1336
01:14:52,897 --> 01:14:54,927
I connect with this so deeply.
1337
01:14:54,927 --> 01:14:56,487
It's so cool to me.
1338
01:14:56,667 --> 01:14:57,497
Kyle: It makes you feel something.
1339
01:14:57,497 --> 01:15:00,777
Th- this specific-- and "Formal
Gluttony," when this comes on,
1340
01:15:01,007 --> 01:15:02,527
inspires your sense of wonder.
1341
01:15:02,527 --> 01:15:07,507
Like, if you're our age and you, as a
kid, had a diet of things like "Carmen
1342
01:15:07,507 --> 01:15:12,754
Sandiego," you feel the bigness of
the world when you hear something
1343
01:15:12,754 --> 01:15:17,474
like this embedded in a style of music
where you weren't expecting this and
1344
01:15:17,474 --> 01:15:19,254
it's something else that you love.
1345
01:15:19,714 --> 01:15:25,074
And if I recall correctly, I read
that this part of it was built around
1346
01:15:25,084 --> 01:15:30,954
Blake had this sort of 6/8-y rhythm
that he was playing around with, and
1347
01:15:30,954 --> 01:15:33,345
they wrote around this first part.
1348
01:15:33,725 --> 01:15:34,245
Is that right?
1349
01:15:35,292 --> 01:15:38,806
Cliff: And one of the other things this
brought to mind for me then, so kind of
1350
01:15:38,806 --> 01:15:46,156
building around a beat and then bringing
in scales and things that feel like
1351
01:15:46,156 --> 01:15:52,106
they're from a time reminded me of this'll
be really fun if anyone follows this,
1352
01:15:52,106 --> 01:15:56,926
but like Nile's "Annihilation of the
Wicked," like technical death metal that
1353
01:15:56,926 --> 01:16:00,293
is about Egypt in an overly serious way.
1354
01:16:00,463 --> 01:16:06,093
they through raw commitment to that entire
concept eventually just start feeling like
1355
01:16:06,093 --> 01:16:10,633
a band who's somehow playing from that
time period when they're doing it well.
1356
01:16:11,043 --> 01:16:16,583
And that combined with like the
sorta background chanting of like,
1357
01:16:16,593 --> 01:16:21,533
"Build, rebuild, cannot close our
eyes," like this is the sort of
1358
01:16:21,633 --> 01:16:28,283
vague circular stuff that I very much
enjoyed as a 20-year-old conceptually
1359
01:16:28,497 --> 01:16:33,557
Kyle: Dude, I will never forget as
long as I live being 16 years old,
1360
01:16:33,897 --> 01:16:36,027
umpiring a youth baseball game with you.
1361
01:16:36,367 --> 01:16:41,957
It's like 9:30 in the morning, and you
explain to me that you have this idea
1362
01:16:41,977 --> 01:16:47,567
for an all instrumental concept record
that's the s- the building and destruction
1363
01:16:47,577 --> 01:16:54,297
and starting over of a civilization that
starts with one slow hammer on an anvil.
1364
01:16:54,847 --> 01:16:57,337
Ting, ting, and then it builds up.
1365
01:16:57,337 --> 01:17:00,577
Sorry to give your IP away, but
you haven't written the record
1366
01:17:00,577 --> 01:17:03,397
yet, so maybe this is an impetus
to do it before somebody else does.
1367
01:17:04,515 --> 01:17:07,105
that was all I thought
about that whole weekend.
1368
01:17:07,735 --> 01:17:10,895
I drove home in silence,
didn't even listen to anything.
1369
01:17:10,905 --> 01:17:12,235
I was like: What would that sound like?
1370
01:17:12,285 --> 01:17:15,720
It had just, like, never occurred to
me that you could do that with music.
1371
01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:20,120
I just thought you wrote little
Sun Records, three minute, two and
1372
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:24,190
a half minute 45s, "Baby, I Love
You," uh, on out into oblivion.
1373
01:17:25,003 --> 01:17:28,243
Once again, I didn't know
this is what music could be
1374
01:17:30,463 --> 01:17:34,231
Cliff: We got room for all of that,
baby So that I don't drag 'cause…
1375
01:17:34,681 --> 01:17:36,741
But I could do a second-by-second.
1376
01:17:36,751 --> 01:17:42,431
But really the meat of this record
arguably, I guess, would be like
1377
01:17:42,431 --> 01:17:46,681
the, the center two songs, so "Son of
Nothing" and "Ants of the Sky." This
1378
01:17:46,681 --> 01:17:50,211
whole album obviously, like we've
talked about, sort of goes together.
1379
01:17:50,221 --> 01:17:56,791
But these are also contained within
that, a, a song that was then subdivided.
1380
01:17:56,791 --> 01:17:59,801
I'll give you a little trick to
listen to the transition in a minute.
1381
01:18:00,421 --> 01:18:01,331
But "Son
1382
01:18:01,331 --> 01:18:01,751
of Nothing" and
1383
01:18:02,197 --> 01:18:05,297
"
Kyle: Son of Nothing," "Ants of
the Sky," prequel to the sequel
1384
01:18:05,737 --> 01:18:10,367
that's a perfect 30-minute thing
that never loses you for a second.
1385
01:18:10,607 --> 01:18:14,397
"Ants of the Sky" is one of my favorite
pieces of music by anyone f**king
1386
01:18:14,437 --> 01:18:19,687
ever, and my eyes rolled back in my
skull when I re-listened to it, just
1387
01:18:19,687 --> 01:18:23,537
like, "Oh my God, I love this so much."
1388
01:18:23,948 --> 01:18:28,880
And it was the first thing they wrote or
like the first thing that kinda mostly
1389
01:18:28,880 --> 01:18:30,020
got there.
1390
01:18:30,860 --> 01:18:35,570
I think that it was like this
notorious 14-minute demo that they
1391
01:18:35,570 --> 01:18:38,660
supposedly had and originally were
gonna maybe open the record with it.
1392
01:18:39,205 --> 01:18:43,355
but it opens at full speed and
they had to write backwards
1393
01:18:43,365 --> 01:18:49,995
from "Ants" to whatever "Son of
Nothing" ended with to get up to…
1394
01:18:50,125 --> 01:18:53,515
Like I remember the Josh Homme guitar
moves where he was talking about like
1395
01:18:54,105 --> 01:18:59,875
H-Hendrix or Billy Gibbons one had to like
get-- had to play around something to get
1396
01:18:59,885 --> 01:19:02,145
to the signature move, the signature bend.
1397
01:19:02,665 --> 01:19:06,735
And this is like that
structurally with a song.
1398
01:19:06,755 --> 01:19:07,995
Just like, what do you mean?
1399
01:19:08,005 --> 01:19:10,835
It starts full speed
after the one or whatever.
1400
01:19:11,722 --> 01:19:14,242
but yeah, "Son," "Ants" prequel.
1401
01:19:14,857 --> 01:19:18,999
if, you find yourself struggling
on the first listen, just m- I mean
1402
01:19:19,009 --> 01:19:22,369
maybe just start with "Ants" even
'cause you're, it's just gonna launch
1403
01:19:22,369 --> 01:19:25,699
you out of a rocket and then back up
to "Son." Do "Son," "Ants" prequel,
1404
01:19:25,729 --> 01:19:28,019
"Son," "Ants" prequel on a, on a loop.
1405
01:19:28,069 --> 01:19:29,429
That's one flavor of this.
1406
01:19:29,429 --> 01:19:31,179
Just "White Walls" is a thing.
1407
01:19:31,389 --> 01:19:35,929
If you don't like any of that you can do
"Viridian." But yeah, "So-Son of Nothing"
1408
01:19:35,929 --> 01:19:38,519
and "Ants of the Sky" is a great one-two.
1409
01:19:38,549 --> 01:19:40,939
The big battleships at
the center of this record
1410
01:19:41,381 --> 01:19:42,911
Cliff: Mm. You will appreciate.
1411
01:19:42,931 --> 01:19:45,681
If anyone at this point hasn't
realized this is why Cliff is like
1412
01:19:45,681 --> 01:19:47,541
this, here's one more bit of evidence.
1413
01:19:47,851 --> 01:19:51,871
One exercise I got to do with this
record was how far can I go from memory?
1414
01:19:52,864 --> 01:19:53,184
Kyle: Oh, s**t.
1415
01:19:53,674 --> 01:19:54,354
On guitar?
1416
01:19:54,408 --> 01:19:55,088
Cliff: in my brain.
1417
01:19:55,428 --> 01:19:56,728
On guitar it would be pretty sick.
1418
01:19:56,938 --> 01:19:59,298
I know how lo- how to play
a lot of these, but, um,
1419
01:19:59,636 --> 01:20:01,506
Kyle: I was like, "On drums?"
'Cause I know you've been
1420
01:20:01,506 --> 01:20:02,886
practicing drums a lot lately.
1421
01:20:02,886 --> 01:20:04,136
Like, damn, boy
1422
01:20:04,428 --> 01:20:09,490
Cliff: Not that much, sir. no, just having
fully all the different instruments and
1423
01:20:09,490 --> 01:20:13,380
exactly what they're playing memorized
because I listened to this as much as
1424
01:20:13,380 --> 01:20:16,420
I watched the movie "Toy Story" when
I was a child and could recite the
1425
01:20:16,420 --> 01:20:20,400
entire thing to you start to finish,
including the Randy Newman songs.
1426
01:20:21,290 --> 01:20:25,570
So each time I get pretty far into "Son
of Nothing," but it's a long one, so…
1427
01:20:26,260 --> 01:20:33,710
But by the time we get here, okay, so this
song, quote from Tommy, the vocalist here,
1428
01:20:33,830 --> 01:20:37,880
quote, "This song is about a man who gets
tired of his life and he decides the only
1429
01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:41,530
natural way to rid himself of this world
is to fly to the sun and burn his body.
1430
01:20:41,940 --> 01:20:45,319
He builds a rocket ship and
starts his journey, and this
1431
01:20:45,319 --> 01:20:48,299
song is about his thought process
during his voyage towards death.
1432
01:20:48,609 --> 01:20:52,759
He evaluates all the different aspects
of his life until in the end he realizes
1433
01:20:53,019 --> 01:20:55,979
he had it better than most, and he
has regret, but there's no turning
1434
01:20:55,979 --> 01:21:00,099
back because he's already floating
towards the sun." Once again, this
1435
01:21:00,099 --> 01:21:03,579
is exactly my type of s**t in 2007.
1436
01:21:04,299 --> 01:21:05,429
Thank you very much.
1437
01:21:05,659 --> 01:21:07,019
I feel this.
1438
01:21:07,223 --> 01:21:08,253
Kyle: now, by the way.
1439
01:21:10,823 --> 01:21:12,073
More sharply than ever
1440
01:21:12,549 --> 01:21:14,559
Cliff: Indeed, I do feel a spaceman.
1441
01:21:14,879 --> 01:21:16,219
That's what they say I am.
1442
01:21:17,359 --> 01:21:17,849
This song
1443
01:21:17,943 --> 01:21:20,413
Kyle: I'm my-- Also, I'm my own planet.
1444
01:21:20,893 --> 01:21:23,803
Real missed opportunity to
not put that on a T-shirt.
1445
01:21:24,183 --> 01:21:24,513
Cliff: True
1446
01:21:25,217 --> 01:21:26,127
Kyle: It's not too late
1447
01:21:26,304 --> 01:21:29,534
Cliff: This band has put out one
bajillion T-shirts, so there's
1448
01:21:29,534 --> 01:21:30,774
really no excuse to not have
1449
01:21:30,774 --> 01:21:31,314
done it yet.
1450
01:21:31,374 --> 01:21:34,914
I do appreciate their merch game and the
ability to support them through such.
1451
01:21:34,974 --> 01:21:35,604
Kyle: It's strong
1452
01:21:36,334 --> 01:21:41,184
Cliff: So a few key moments here to
walk you through, 'cause it is, you're
1453
01:21:41,184 --> 01:21:43,354
getting into the longer guys now, right?
1454
01:21:44,034 --> 01:21:47,873
First bit is like you get two
minutes of pretty intense s**t, and
1455
01:21:47,873 --> 01:21:51,993
then at two minutes they drop right
back out, uh, and build up from an
1456
01:21:51,993 --> 01:21:53,783
acoustic guitar from almost nothing.
1457
01:21:54,373 --> 01:21:56,423
And they start building
that whole thing up again.
1458
01:21:56,736 --> 01:22:02,913
and then by like 50 seconds later,
two minutes and 50 seconds in
1459
01:22:02,913 --> 01:22:07,163
this song is one of the greatest
examples of what we're talking about
1460
01:22:07,163 --> 01:22:09,343
with them doing the preview thing.
1461
01:22:09,913 --> 01:22:12,413
At two minutes and 50
seconds they do this thing.
1462
01:22:12,543 --> 01:22:13,373
Listen to it.
1463
01:22:13,583 --> 01:22:17,163
But then after that, there's
this like weird ass little break.
1464
01:22:17,173 --> 01:22:21,839
They go in this totally other
direction about, 40 seconds later.
1465
01:22:22,229 --> 01:22:29,229
They do this little la-ti-da thing in
the… Tommy does this really odd singing
1466
01:22:29,239 --> 01:22:34,229
thing, and then at three minutes and 48
seconds, they bring back the riff that I
1467
01:22:34,229 --> 01:22:38,459
just mentioned from like a minute and a
half ago, and then add something different
1468
01:22:38,469 --> 01:22:40,472
to it, and then they're off again.
1469
01:22:41,149 --> 01:22:46,009
there's 1,000 instances of like this
example that I'm trying to give you.
1470
01:22:46,319 --> 01:22:47,359
It's really cool.
1471
01:22:47,479 --> 01:22:53,829
It's neat to like chase them and listen
to it, and it's, it becomes funnier that
1472
01:22:53,829 --> 01:22:57,169
they do the little interludes that only
happen one time because it starts to
1473
01:22:57,169 --> 01:23:01,569
feel a little bit like somebody f**king
with you, like trying to send you down
1474
01:23:01,569 --> 01:23:03,959
the wrong place in a maze or something.
1475
01:23:04,227 --> 01:23:08,457
Kyle: Okay, for the la-di-da part, I
just copied and pasted in the Julia
1476
01:23:08,497 --> 01:23:12,157
Louis-Dreyfus from Veep where it's
like, "Laughs nervously. What the f**k?"
1477
01:23:12,931 --> 01:23:13,581
Cliff: Yeah.
1478
01:23:13,961 --> 01:23:14,601
It's odd.
1479
01:23:14,661 --> 01:23:19,294
and one of the greatest things about
how weird it is, is like they are
1480
01:23:19,294 --> 01:23:24,214
playing-- they have been playing
this song for a long time with full
1481
01:23:24,224 --> 01:23:25,774
f**king bit commitment to all of
1482
01:23:25,922 --> 01:23:27,232
Kyle: Full speed, game speed.
1483
01:23:27,694 --> 01:23:30,514
Cliff: No apology, no "Haha, we did this
1484
01:23:30,524 --> 01:23:31,074
back then.
1485
01:23:31,094 --> 01:23:33,434
Isn't it uncool now?" N- no.
1486
01:23:34,919 --> 01:23:37,849
which is what's so fun about the
energy of it, 'cause they're not
1487
01:23:37,859 --> 01:23:39,639
telling you it's serious and artistic.
1488
01:23:39,939 --> 01:23:43,029
They're just gonna do it for
real, 100% of it, all of it
1489
01:23:43,383 --> 01:23:47,393
Kyle: There's really something
about life in, in there, right?
1490
01:23:47,423 --> 01:23:52,043
You know, in, in the 10 minutes and 58
seconds that represents your life, the 20
1491
01:23:52,053 --> 01:23:56,423
seconds where you do the la-di-da thing
is like, it amounts to when you take a
1492
01:23:56,423 --> 01:23:58,563
fashion risk at an event or something.
1493
01:23:58,563 --> 01:24:02,413
You wear a strange outfit one time and
you're like, "Well, I'd just be normal.
1494
01:24:02,413 --> 01:24:06,203
I'd just be regular like all the
rest of you if I wore the same
1495
01:24:06,203 --> 01:24:07,833
old black tie thing," you know?
1496
01:24:07,833 --> 01:24:10,713
But I, I wanted to wear the
Dumb and Dumber powder blue
1497
01:24:10,713 --> 01:24:12,943
thing to this particular gala.
1498
01:24:13,491 --> 01:24:16,461
but also, here's how good
I look in a black tie.
1499
01:24:17,881 --> 01:24:18,941
You know, that sort of thing.
1500
01:24:20,129 --> 01:24:20,639
Cliff: Yes.
1501
01:24:21,007 --> 01:24:26,863
Couple of other bits then, I guess,
at 4:43 they do… They shift into
1502
01:24:26,883 --> 01:24:31,443
clearly like a, a major key or, or
major key focus, which they do a lot.
1503
01:24:31,453 --> 01:24:35,683
They shift between minor and
major, and not in the way that, you
1504
01:24:35,683 --> 01:24:38,193
know, a lot of times we talk about
records and we're like, "Notice
1505
01:24:38,193 --> 01:24:40,263
this subtle shift from minor to…"
1506
01:24:40,813 --> 01:24:44,433
It's not subtle when they shift
from minor to major or back here.
1507
01:24:44,939 --> 01:24:46,179
Kyle: The whole feel changes
1508
01:24:46,319 --> 01:24:50,129
Cliff: yep, it feels straight
different, which again, I love, and
1509
01:24:50,129 --> 01:24:54,089
especially because I was listening
to this so much when I was a music
1510
01:24:54,089 --> 01:24:55,939
student and learning about theory.
1511
01:24:56,109 --> 01:25:01,119
Like this is a, this is a smart,
like capital S smart thing to do
1512
01:25:01,379 --> 01:25:03,359
to move people through the music.
1513
01:25:04,159 --> 01:25:06,689
don't be shy about major keys.
1514
01:25:06,929 --> 01:25:10,349
Do it and then go away from
it so it doesn't feel like
1515
01:25:10,349 --> 01:25:11,509
you're doing it the whole time.
1516
01:25:11,699 --> 01:25:14,839
And if you do it right and spread it
out the right way and build it up the
1517
01:25:14,839 --> 01:25:20,219
right way, you get this crazy payoff that
comes from nothing except how the music
1518
01:25:20,219 --> 01:25:23,069
has been feeling for 50, 60 minutes.
1519
01:25:23,359 --> 01:25:27,759
It's awesome, and it's the s**t that
they teach you in school, and a lot of
1520
01:25:27,759 --> 01:25:31,509
times it gets wrung out if a band is
even trying to do it through production
1521
01:25:31,509 --> 01:25:33,059
or whatever else, and it's just here.
1522
01:25:34,020 --> 01:25:37,770
major key bit there that's heavily
inspired by like… I mean,
1523
01:25:37,770 --> 01:25:38,910
I saw one reference to this.
1524
01:25:38,910 --> 01:25:43,050
I'm not sure this is probably the
canonical reference, pun intended,
1525
01:25:43,050 --> 01:25:48,620
but, uh, I saw a reference to
Pachelbel's Canon in D as like, "Oh,
1526
01:25:48,620 --> 01:25:49,980
maybe they're playing this on guitar."
1527
01:25:50,020 --> 01:25:53,790
I'm not so sure that that's true, but
one thing that I do like is the idea of
1528
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:57,740
anyone listening to us now and then going
and listening to Pachelbel's Canon in
1529
01:25:57,740 --> 01:26:02,280
D or anything loosely related to that,
because it will tell you what I'm trying
1530
01:26:02,280 --> 01:26:04,540
to get across to you now about major keys.
1531
01:26:05,098 --> 01:26:05,488
Kyle: Right.
1532
01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:06,193
Well, there
1533
01:26:06,193 --> 01:26:09,913
was that video a while back that was
like everything is canon indie, you know?
1534
01:26:09,913 --> 01:26:13,103
Like all major pop is canon indie,
the Vitamin C song and all those
1535
01:26:13,103 --> 01:26:18,628
other things like, it's just kind
of an unconscious signal to pop
1536
01:26:18,638 --> 01:26:21,218
positivity or, or something like that.
1537
01:26:21,228 --> 01:26:25,380
It-- I mean, it's just imbued in
everybody musically, you know?
1538
01:26:25,380 --> 01:26:28,490
It's a, it's a Winter Soldier
code for everybody chord-wise.
1539
01:26:29,032 --> 01:26:33,072
Cliff: That's what makes it funny showing
up five minutes deep in the middle of a
1540
01:26:33,072 --> 01:26:35,032
technical progressive death metal record.
1541
01:26:35,592 --> 01:26:36,852
It's why I love this s**t.
1542
01:26:37,512 --> 01:26:40,362
And then, you know, one other
bit before it sort of transitions
1543
01:26:40,362 --> 01:26:46,532
through is like around 6:46 they
are full on in something resembling
1544
01:26:47,042 --> 01:26:49,012
"Aqueous Transmission" from Incubus.
1545
01:26:49,978 --> 01:26:53,278
Oh, you wouldn't believe it was
the same band if you had hopped
1546
01:26:53,278 --> 01:26:54,718
into this part of it at all.
1547
01:26:55,188 --> 01:26:58,888
And I love how they draw that
stuff out and hide it in the songs.
1548
01:26:59,038 --> 01:27:02,058
And again, like I'm just
expressing they're playing
1549
01:27:02,158 --> 01:27:04,438
every second of these songs live
1550
01:27:05,014 --> 01:27:05,284
Kyle: Yep
1551
01:27:05,588 --> 01:27:10,728
Cliff: And the transition is just
as strange and abrupt as you would
1552
01:27:10,728 --> 01:27:13,538
expect it to feel, and there's
something really interesting about it.
1553
01:27:13,956 --> 01:27:17,346
Kyle: I hadn't thought about "Aqueous
Transmission," but my favorite part of
1554
01:27:17,356 --> 01:27:21,746
that song, I mean, both of my favorite
parts of the song are the parts where
1555
01:27:21,746 --> 01:27:24,276
they say in some fashion, "I'm floating."
1556
01:27:24,826 --> 01:27:28,576
The, but the first one is the like I'm
blissfully, I'm floating farther, I'm
1557
01:27:28,576 --> 01:27:33,776
floating farther away." I didn't clock
that the lyrics in that part said "I
1558
01:27:33,776 --> 01:27:37,046
did love, I did laugh, I did live."
1559
01:27:37,076 --> 01:27:40,676
And when I went on Genius, I laughed
out loud when I saw that part.
1560
01:27:40,676 --> 01:27:44,436
Like, that encapsulates
the BT BAM sense of humor
1561
01:27:44,526 --> 01:27:51,066
to me perfectly, because they
absolutely mean it through the vessel
1562
01:27:51,066 --> 01:27:54,866
of this character 100% in earnest,
but it's also like a little bit of
1563
01:27:54,866 --> 01:28:01,527
a, " Heh." and then they go into like
spaceman cumbia right after that part.
1564
01:28:01,827 --> 01:28:04,767
It's like "Aqueous Transmission,"
a little bit of weird cumbia.
1565
01:28:05,977 --> 01:28:10,507
But to your point, they preview
the, the resolution riff, the like,
1566
01:28:10,507 --> 01:28:14,427
"I'm floating toward the sun of
nothing" riff immediately before
1567
01:28:14,427 --> 01:28:17,119
the cumbia just for like a measure.
1568
01:28:17,752 --> 01:28:20,332
and that's one of the places where
it's like a little more pronounced,
1569
01:28:20,332 --> 01:28:22,712
one of the first places that I
noticed where I was like, "Oh.
1570
01:28:23,092 --> 01:28:23,422
Oh."
1571
01:28:23,742 --> 01:28:24,272
Cliff: Mm-hmm
1572
01:28:24,518 --> 01:28:29,196
Kyle: there's like a large chunk
of this that's clean tone, jazzy
1573
01:28:29,229 --> 01:28:33,612
type stuff that like you'd still
have a whole cool song there if you
1574
01:28:33,612 --> 01:28:35,152
didn't do any of the metal things.
1575
01:28:35,152 --> 01:28:38,792
But then you, you put the heavy and
the light together and it is a, it's
1576
01:28:38,792 --> 01:28:44,252
a big, interesting composition at
that point that becomes uniquely them.
1577
01:28:44,410 --> 01:28:50,190
then you have this like descending
note, grunge in spirit thing in, "I'm
1578
01:28:50,190 --> 01:28:55,150
floating towards the sun of nothing."
It's like so sad and affecting.
1579
01:28:55,349 --> 01:29:00,291
and they've talked about how
they like sad-feeling stuff.
1580
01:29:00,717 --> 01:29:03,227
The "Tears for Fears" record,
that's a concept record.
1581
01:29:03,237 --> 01:29:06,057
They talked about like, "Oh, it didn't
occur to me," I think Dan Briggs said,
1582
01:29:06,057 --> 01:29:09,857
"It didn't occur to me that like pop
music could be so sad and so poppy."
1583
01:29:10,489 --> 01:29:13,879
they're fans of Counting Crows, who I
think have a lot of really sad music.
1584
01:29:14,260 --> 01:29:17,469
but they do that vibe really well.
1585
01:29:17,642 --> 01:29:21,502
And I think the best instance of it is, is
here toward the end of "Son of Nothing."
1586
01:29:21,964 --> 01:29:22,384
Cliff: Yep.
1587
01:29:22,908 --> 01:29:26,111
So I'll give a l- little trick,
although at this point you'll
1588
01:29:26,121 --> 01:29:29,251
understand that this is just how
the music works, but a nice bit.
1589
01:29:29,641 --> 01:29:35,561
If you wanna hit "Ants of the
Sky," go back to 10:47 in "Son of
1590
01:29:35,561 --> 01:29:37,250
Nothing" and then go from there.
1591
01:29:37,730 --> 01:29:43,470
Because what they do is you get another
treat of what we were talking about where
1592
01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:49,250
they introduce the riff with only one
guitar and the drums, but at a slightly
1593
01:29:49,250 --> 01:29:54,581
slower speed and then hit "Ants of
the Sky" running You get the sensation
1594
01:29:54,581 --> 01:29:58,531
if you back up, you get the sensation
of them literally, like, hitting the
1595
01:29:58,531 --> 01:30:01,601
gas pedal and moving with the music
1596
01:30:01,681 --> 01:30:04,591
Kyle: Or, like backing up and
getting ready to sprint full speed.
1597
01:30:04,591 --> 01:30:04,931
Yeah.
1598
01:30:05,031 --> 01:30:06,061
Cliff: a Hot Wheels car.
1599
01:30:06,181 --> 01:30:07,661
Kyle: Like a Hot Wheels car
1600
01:30:08,924 --> 01:30:09,884
Cliff: it's sort of funny.
1601
01:30:09,884 --> 01:30:14,933
It reminds me of, reaching out to the
normies through my M-Marvel references.
1602
01:30:15,243 --> 01:30:19,173
Uh, it's sort of like when Iron Man
and Thanos are fighting in f**king
1603
01:30:19,173 --> 01:30:23,433
space and he does a bunch of s**t
and Thanos goes, "All that for a drop
1604
01:30:23,433 --> 01:30:28,673
of blood." Like, they do all this so
that you can have a five-second intro
1605
01:30:28,673 --> 01:30:30,043
and then they never touch it again.
1606
01:30:30,333 --> 01:30:34,263
Like, it's just that over and
over and over again, piling up.
1607
01:30:34,813 --> 01:30:38,833
So once again, in this song like we talked
about in the last one, they're they build
1608
01:30:38,833 --> 01:30:42,923
like a rocket only for a minute, then
it drops all the way back down to piano.
1609
01:30:43,193 --> 01:30:47,963
Then they play a major recurring riff once
that comes back at the end of the song.
1610
01:30:48,343 --> 01:30:49,843
it's just this over and over.
1611
01:30:49,843 --> 01:30:52,453
This is why it's just if you
like music and you can handle
1612
01:30:52,453 --> 01:30:53,763
this, just please listen to it.
1613
01:30:53,943 --> 01:30:55,753
You might even need to journal.
1614
01:30:55,873 --> 01:30:58,403
You don't have to tell anybody
about it, but, like, it could be
1615
01:30:58,403 --> 01:31:00,353
an interesting exercise for you.
1616
01:31:00,553 --> 01:31:06,433
Or draw or, like, do sort of anything
that might help you, like, get out or
1617
01:31:06,443 --> 01:31:10,923
document the things that you're noticing
or experiencing as this music happens,
1618
01:31:10,923 --> 01:31:15,303
'cause there's a lot of it, but you can
follow and it's really cool and it moves
1619
01:31:15,303 --> 01:31:19,303
really well Couple other highlights,
I guess, on this long-ass song.
1620
01:31:19,663 --> 01:31:24,933
But one of my favorites around 8:22,
you get the-- They drop into this
1621
01:31:24,933 --> 01:31:28,773
really familiar sleep on, fly on hook
1622
01:31:29,121 --> 01:31:29,131
Kyle: Mm-hmm.
1623
01:31:29,933 --> 01:31:31,643
Cliff: that, that builds really well.
1624
01:31:31,653 --> 01:31:32,723
It sounds cool.
1625
01:31:33,163 --> 01:31:38,819
And then around 10 minutes and
45 seconds, you get a, again,
1626
01:31:38,849 --> 01:31:40,739
a lot of really chill music.
1627
01:31:40,799 --> 01:31:44,229
No, absolutely no inclination
of what had come before.
1628
01:31:44,859 --> 01:31:47,449
Really chill, downbeat type of music.
1629
01:31:47,859 --> 01:31:48,469
And then…
1630
01:31:48,627 --> 01:31:54,237
Kyle: smooth jazz at 10:45.
1631
01:31:54,609 --> 01:31:55,269
Cliff: solo
1632
01:31:56,079 --> 01:31:57,119
that's thrown in.
1633
01:31:57,264 --> 01:32:00,584
please, like, borrow how much
I love it as a guitar player.
1634
01:32:00,754 --> 01:32:04,424
Th- this is some of the coolest
modern guitar work, and it just
1635
01:32:04,514 --> 01:32:10,044
popped up on this album from
f**king Victory Records in 2007.
1636
01:32:10,334 --> 01:32:11,564
It lit my s**t up.
1637
01:32:11,564 --> 01:32:13,074
It was so great.
1638
01:32:13,348 --> 01:32:16,398
Kyle: Again, if there were a
whole album of it, they'd be a
1639
01:32:16,398 --> 01:32:18,908
marquee player at Big Ears next
1640
01:32:18,908 --> 01:32:19,328
Cliff: Yeah.
1641
01:32:19,368 --> 01:32:20,338
Kyle: in Knoxville for sure
1642
01:32:20,438 --> 01:32:24,438
Cliff: And all I was doing at this
time was listening to Pat Metheny
1643
01:32:24,458 --> 01:32:29,950
and Chet Atkins and, Christopher
Perkins and, like, the, the literal
1644
01:32:29,950 --> 01:32:31,630
greatest guitarists on earth.
1645
01:32:32,010 --> 01:32:35,680
And this kind of stuff just,
like, drops at my doorstep, and
1646
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:37,220
I love sending people back to it.
1647
01:32:37,793 --> 01:32:40,153
so again, Paul hides some
incredible stuff in there.
1648
01:32:40,163 --> 01:32:43,537
Then after that is the
aforementioned hoedown.
1649
01:32:43,917 --> 01:32:51,617
We get this little bluegrass thing, which
to some reviewers was just distasteful.
1650
01:32:52,483 --> 01:32:53,703
Kyle: Unacceptable, yeah.
1651
01:32:54,931 --> 01:32:57,691
Cliff: The "Adventure Time" meme always
comes back up for the unacceptable.
1652
01:33:01,123 --> 01:33:03,753
I'm not defending this like it's
some brilliant piece of music.
1653
01:33:03,773 --> 01:33:07,711
What I am telling you, though,
is that, like, it itself as a
1654
01:33:07,711 --> 01:33:12,181
moment in music communicated
what it meant to like this band.
1655
01:33:12,861 --> 01:33:16,841
The fact that you knew that this existed
in the song was, like, step number one.
1656
01:33:17,071 --> 01:33:19,611
Step number two is even knowing
that they're playing this song to
1657
01:33:19,611 --> 01:33:23,301
begin with, and you're like, 12
minutes deep in it at this point.
1658
01:33:23,471 --> 01:33:24,661
You gotta actually know it's coming.
1659
01:33:24,881 --> 01:33:27,481
I'm talking about people who
were wearing cowboy hats for the
1660
01:33:27,481 --> 01:33:29,891
express reference of this moment.
1661
01:33:30,411 --> 01:33:31,381
It was a whole
1662
01:33:31,681 --> 01:33:33,241
interesting… Yeah.
1663
01:33:33,391 --> 01:33:33,881
Yes.
1664
01:33:34,221 --> 01:33:34,681
Yeah.
1665
01:33:35,681 --> 01:33:40,872
And like, in one sense, that goofy ass
moment was exactly the same moment every
1666
01:33:40,872 --> 01:33:44,812
show where you would go, "Oh, one of us.
1667
01:33:45,482 --> 01:33:46,922
Everybody here, one of us.
1668
01:33:46,942 --> 01:33:49,642
Okay, I get it." we all… All right.
1669
01:33:50,422 --> 01:33:51,282
We're all here.
1670
01:33:51,512 --> 01:33:52,152
We all love this.
1671
01:33:52,152 --> 01:33:54,492
Uh, uh, okay.
1672
01:33:54,936 --> 01:33:57,056
Kyle: I wasn't gonna be the
one to do it, but I'm not
1673
01:33:57,066 --> 01:33:58,626
necessarily mad that you did it.
1674
01:33:58,778 --> 01:33:59,448
Cliff: Exactly.
1675
01:34:00,118 --> 01:34:01,018
Second though,
1676
01:34:01,318 --> 01:34:02,808
and this-- Yeah.
1677
01:34:04,070 --> 01:34:08,490
So in this little breakdown in the music
itself there's a talk track over it.
1678
01:34:08,490 --> 01:34:11,310
It sounds like you're sort of like
in a saloon or something like that.
1679
01:34:11,869 --> 01:34:15,249
again, all of this sounds really stupid
until the first time you hear them do it
1680
01:34:15,249 --> 01:34:20,569
live, and then you go, "Oh my God, it's
every-- we are-- Okay, we are making the
1681
01:34:20,569 --> 01:34:25,369
noise that sounds like the thing off of
the r-" oh, and it's just this surreal
1682
01:34:25,389 --> 01:34:30,999
moment of like, nah, somebody thought
about this and planned this, and now
1683
01:34:30,999 --> 01:34:36,069
we're having this sort of moment where
it's like it w- it's a literal f**king
1684
01:34:36,269 --> 01:34:43,309
country bluegrass moment in the middle of
a long song that's silly and feels wrong,
1685
01:34:43,579 --> 01:34:47,499
and yet inside of all of this is e-even
just for me, is like all this meaning.
1686
01:34:48,210 --> 01:34:53,340
this thing means something to me,
and like those moments reminded me
1687
01:34:53,350 --> 01:34:57,340
of like, well, a good portion of
everybody else in this room gives a
1688
01:34:57,740 --> 01:35:02,620
s**t about music being cool and like
meaning something and people trying.
1689
01:35:02,840 --> 01:35:07,860
And like I have found some
portion of my people and like
1690
01:35:07,900 --> 01:35:09,310
I want to do this all the time.
1691
01:35:09,530 --> 01:35:13,540
And like all of that came from the thing
that if you just read a review about it is
1692
01:35:13,540 --> 01:35:16,390
like, "Nah, they did this stupid f**king
thing in the middle of a cool song."
1693
01:35:16,724 --> 01:35:17,034
Kyle: Hmm.
1694
01:35:17,414 --> 01:35:18,084
That's beautiful
1695
01:35:18,464 --> 01:35:20,154
Cliff: And isn't it stupid
that it's beautiful?
1696
01:35:20,194 --> 01:35:20,674
You know?
1697
01:35:21,250 --> 01:35:21,710
Kyle: Yeah.
1698
01:35:21,710 --> 01:35:23,530
And isn't it beautiful that it's stupid?
1699
01:35:23,594 --> 01:35:24,054
Cliff: yeah
1700
01:35:24,550 --> 01:35:24,880
Kyle: Yeah.
1701
01:35:25,910 --> 01:35:31,350
I, at this point will reiterate that
I was medicated the first time that
1702
01:35:31,350 --> 01:35:36,300
I listened to this record, and I
remember thinking, "Oh my God, I'm
1703
01:35:36,300 --> 01:35:40,473
hallucinating." the meds are getting
away from me when I heard this.
1704
01:35:41,063 --> 01:35:42,493
I didn't think it was real.
1705
01:35:42,563 --> 01:35:47,953
And I remember laughing so f**king
loud that my mom came in the
1706
01:35:47,953 --> 01:35:49,673
room to make sure I was okay.
1707
01:35:50,440 --> 01:35:51,850
I vividly remember it.
1708
01:35:52,390 --> 01:35:57,330
I really want an isolated track of just
the saloon chatter, 'cause I can only
1709
01:35:57,330 --> 01:36:00,500
catch it like in literally, "Hey man,
what the heck you doing over there?" And
1710
01:36:00,500 --> 01:36:02,140
it's like kind of King of the Hill-y.
1711
01:36:02,718 --> 01:36:05,258
I really want that released
as its own standalone thing.
1712
01:36:06,582 --> 01:36:11,322
I will say there is a straight-- Like,
normally it's like apart, you know?
1713
01:36:11,322 --> 01:36:13,532
We isolate 20, 30 seconds.
1714
01:36:14,052 --> 01:36:21,022
I will say I timestamped fully four
minutes of this thing as sequence after
1715
01:36:21,022 --> 01:36:25,642
sequence of this is what makes it,
the DNA of this is what makes it one
1716
01:36:25,642 --> 01:36:27,502
of my favorite pieces of music ever.
1717
01:36:27,792 --> 01:36:30,642
'Cause it's just like, it's like
the Vince McMahon meme, you know?
1718
01:36:30,642 --> 01:36:33,432
They do the first thing and his,
like, his face keeps getting
1719
01:36:33,732 --> 01:36:35,622
big, bigger and more elated.
1720
01:36:36,132 --> 01:36:38,152
There's like six or
seven of those in a row.
1721
01:36:38,492 --> 01:36:42,468
So I'm glad that you, kinda touched
on all the other layers of the
1722
01:36:42,468 --> 01:36:44,208
sandwich other than this part.
1723
01:36:44,658 --> 01:36:49,238
But I think if you've listened to any
amount of this podcast, you'll be able
1724
01:36:49,238 --> 01:36:54,138
to key in on like, "Oh, this is the
most Kyle part of the whole record, and
1725
01:36:54,138 --> 01:36:56,098
maybe of this band's whole repertoire."
1726
01:36:56,488 --> 01:37:00,008
So like, it starts right after two
min… I mean, pretty much right
1727
01:37:00,008 --> 01:37:05,178
away once the piano dropout happens
and they start building back up,
1728
01:37:05,394 --> 01:37:07,156
it's all building to this big part.
1729
01:37:07,176 --> 01:37:09,976
So like right after two
minutes, at 2:10, they do what
1730
01:37:09,976 --> 01:37:11,876
I call the, the carnival riff.
1731
01:37:12,466 --> 01:37:19,127
and then at 2:40, after 30 seconds of
that, they do the, the laser show, kind
1732
01:37:19,127 --> 01:37:21,797
of lead part or arpeggios or whatever, the
1733
01:37:24,837 --> 01:37:29,897
and then about 15 seconds of
that, and then they do… They're
1734
01:37:29,897 --> 01:37:34,487
about to do a Pantera riff, but
they do like a few seconds of, of
1735
01:37:34,577 --> 01:37:36,507
a few bars of like pre-Pantera.
1736
01:37:37,068 --> 01:37:43,428
and then at 3:05, they hit this
Pantera lick like full blast.
1737
01:37:43,828 --> 01:37:49,825
And it gets a li… It may get a little
lost in context how popular southern
1738
01:37:49,835 --> 01:37:52,815
metal stuff was in this exact moment.
1739
01:37:52,835 --> 01:37:56,985
So for a band of five dudes from North
Carolina, who again, on a n- on a covers
1740
01:37:56,985 --> 01:38:01,515
record had just covered Cemetery Gates,
like all of a sudden all these people
1741
01:38:01,635 --> 01:38:07,245
playing guitar and smoking weed were
realizing like how cool Dime riffs were.
1742
01:38:07,371 --> 01:38:07,601
Cliff: Yep.
1743
01:38:10,004 --> 01:38:13,894
Kyle: And like a cool lyrical
moment to accompany a sick
1744
01:38:14,634 --> 01:38:17,209
pentatonic-y riff was crack.
1745
01:38:17,229 --> 01:38:22,029
I mean, it was cigarettes in jail to
like skinny jean dudes on the scene.
1746
01:38:22,279 --> 01:38:25,099
So seems the high horse
is taking them all home.
1747
01:38:25,119 --> 01:38:31,119
I can't leave myself out is a
great line, and it's just delivered
1748
01:38:31,119 --> 01:38:35,359
with so much author- like so
much gravitas during this part.
1749
01:38:36,049 --> 01:38:39,239
And then from the Pantera
riff, it goes into a blues jam.
1750
01:38:39,239 --> 01:38:42,479
And so just for me, it's just like
all this sort of pentatonic stuff
1751
01:38:42,489 --> 01:38:47,589
back to back when you haven't
really gotten anything modally like
1752
01:38:47,589 --> 01:38:49,509
that at all on this record so far.
1753
01:38:49,951 --> 01:38:54,731
And then it sort of climbs up
into a galloping, the cowbell
1754
01:38:54,741 --> 01:38:57,341
riff that's like Kansas, you know?
1755
01:38:57,341 --> 01:38:59,061
It's like a classic hard rock riff.
1756
01:39:02,651 --> 01:39:06,211
And you can kinda… That almost
gets you like your thumb on your belt
1757
01:39:06,231 --> 01:39:08,161
buckle a little, getting you ready to,
1758
01:39:08,587 --> 01:39:09,057
Cliff: Yeah.
1759
01:39:09,177 --> 01:39:10,997
And he brings the little roads out in the
1760
01:39:11,221 --> 01:39:11,741
Kyle: Yeah.
1761
01:39:11,741 --> 01:39:12,421
Yes.
1762
01:39:12,441 --> 01:39:13,171
Yes.
1763
01:39:14,751 --> 01:39:21,141
and then, so that's at 4:35, so you're
at two and a half minutes fully of this.
1764
01:39:21,501 --> 01:39:26,841
And then at 6:45, they call back
the Pantera riff, but they redress
1765
01:39:26,841 --> 01:39:31,201
the stuff around it differently, and
you're like, "Oh, there it was again.
1766
01:39:31,201 --> 01:39:35,883
I love that." and then by seven and a half
minutes, that whole thing has gone away.
1767
01:39:35,883 --> 01:39:40,723
But that is like, again, four
minutes of the most satisfying,
1768
01:39:41,163 --> 01:39:44,863
just pure musical expression
I've ever experienced in my life.
1769
01:39:44,863 --> 01:39:49,553
And every time I start to feel
the build right around two minutes
1770
01:39:49,553 --> 01:39:50,933
of "Ants in the Sky," I'm…
1771
01:39:51,023 --> 01:39:55,123
it is exactly like getting on a
rollercoaster for me and going up
1772
01:39:55,123 --> 01:39:58,163
that first hill and then being like,
"It's happening, it's happening, it's
1773
01:39:58,193 --> 01:40:01,633
happening. Oh, we're going." And then
it's the length of a rollercoaster ride.
1774
01:40:01,983 --> 01:40:08,024
It's so pure and beautiful for me, and
I'm so glad that after all these years,
1775
01:40:08,044 --> 01:40:12,382
it still hits the same, 'cause like
so little does, but it retains that
1776
01:40:12,382 --> 01:40:15,862
pure childlike joy and wonder for me.
1777
01:40:15,922 --> 01:40:18,732
And so I'm, I'm very glad
for that little bit of music.
1778
01:40:19,062 --> 01:40:24,352
And then it just f**ks off into some
other stuff for a long t- for a long time.
1779
01:40:24,672 --> 01:40:28,152
And then you get to pure smooth
Pat Metheny jazz and you're
1780
01:40:28,152 --> 01:40:29,162
like, "Wait, well, hold on.
1781
01:40:29,392 --> 01:40:30,082
How did we get here?
1782
01:40:30,082 --> 01:40:30,832
I like it.
1783
01:40:31,132 --> 01:40:32,082
Glad to be here.
1784
01:40:32,532 --> 01:40:35,722
How did I get so many doors down
from the dive bar that I was
1785
01:40:35,722 --> 01:40:36,382
just in?
1786
01:40:37,362 --> 01:40:38,622
I'll stay on this street a while.
1787
01:40:38,622 --> 01:40:40,432
Maybe this is my favorite
part of town now.
1788
01:40:40,432 --> 01:40:40,892
I don't know."
1789
01:40:42,355 --> 01:40:46,905
Cliff: So much to say and realizing
that at my current rate, we'll
1790
01:40:46,905 --> 01:40:49,115
be here until at least Friday.
1791
01:40:49,415 --> 01:40:54,660
So I'll say from here I play this
song a lot on guitar we do it because
1792
01:40:54,660 --> 01:40:56,820
it is hard, not because it is easy.
1793
01:40:56,930 --> 01:40:57,900
It's really fun to play.
1794
01:40:57,900 --> 01:41:00,340
It's also just like a
really challenging exercise,
1795
01:41:00,366 --> 01:41:01,906
Kyle: I think you have to say,
1796
01:41:02,056 --> 01:41:04,756
If, John F. Kennedy heard
"Between the Buried and Me,"
1797
01:41:04,756 --> 01:41:06,176
it would make his head explode.
1798
01:41:06,216 --> 01:41:07,226
I feel like he-
1799
01:41:08,554 --> 01:41:08,664
Cliff: Oh, Jesus Christ.
1800
01:41:09,050 --> 01:41:13,370
Honestly, that's exactly something that
they would post on Instagram and be like,
1801
01:41:13,370 --> 01:41:15,110
"Come to our show in Detroit," you know?
1802
01:41:15,751 --> 01:41:17,021
Kyle: No, in Dallas.
1803
01:41:18,303 --> 01:41:19,213
Cliff: That's what they want you to think
1804
01:41:20,241 --> 01:41:22,621
Kyle: Uh, we'll be signing
T-shirts up on the Knoll
1805
01:41:24,343 --> 01:41:28,653
Cliff: This whole song is ridiculous, but
the guitar work especially is ridiculous
1806
01:41:28,653 --> 01:41:29,843
for all the things we pointed out.
1807
01:41:29,843 --> 01:41:33,203
But if nothing else, check out
just like the last five seconds.
1808
01:41:33,653 --> 01:41:37,333
They're just like, "Hold on, I haven't
played enough f**king notes for you
1809
01:41:37,333 --> 01:41:41,582
yet. Let me play some of the fastest
s**t." The way that I had to slow
1810
01:41:41,582 --> 01:41:47,452
it down to 20% to understand what
it was to learn it was outrageous.
1811
01:41:47,902 --> 01:41:48,822
It's so cool.
1812
01:41:48,832 --> 01:41:49,962
It's so crazy.
1813
01:41:50,162 --> 01:41:51,002
It's so fun.
1814
01:41:51,032 --> 01:41:54,382
And then they do all of it right here
at the end, and then "Prequel to the
1815
01:41:54,382 --> 01:41:56,532
Sequel" hits, and it's like, "What's up?
1816
01:41:56,572 --> 01:41:58,452
I'm a f**king NES hero.
1817
01:41:58,852 --> 01:42:00,352
I am in a video game."
1818
01:42:00,546 --> 01:42:04,736
Kyle: Just the biggest chest
pumping major chord like, "Yeah,
1819
01:42:04,736 --> 01:42:06,216
we're gonna do this, bro."
1820
01:42:06,454 --> 01:42:08,864
Cliff: I saw somebody refer
to it as the Star Fox riff.
1821
01:42:09,486 --> 01:42:11,056
Kyle: Oh my God.
1822
01:42:11,196 --> 01:42:11,886
Yes
1823
01:42:12,224 --> 01:42:15,924
Cliff: Yeah, I feel like I'm
riding Nyan Cat into the ether.
1824
01:42:16,554 --> 01:42:17,864
There's a bunch of cool stuff here.
1825
01:42:17,924 --> 01:42:18,114
Oh,
1826
01:42:18,254 --> 01:42:18,534
what?
1827
01:42:19,298 --> 01:42:22,478
Kyle: have you ever hit the
crispiest dap of your life
1828
01:42:22,488 --> 01:42:24,438
that echoes throughout a lobby?
1829
01:42:24,818 --> 01:42:25,988
That's-- It feels like that
1830
01:42:25,988 --> 01:42:26,988
kind of a handshake.
1831
01:42:27,070 --> 01:42:27,720
Cliff: for sure.
1832
01:42:28,100 --> 01:42:29,880
Kyle: We're gonna go save the galaxy
1833
01:42:30,155 --> 01:42:33,415
Cliff: I'll skip some of the
timestamps here, uh, in favor of
1834
01:42:33,415 --> 01:42:36,965
general timing, but I will point
out one thing that calls to a little
1835
01:42:36,965 --> 01:42:38,685
thing we buried in several episodes.
1836
01:42:39,105 --> 01:42:43,645
There is a guest vocalist on this
one, and it is Adam Fisher from Fear
1837
01:42:43,645 --> 01:42:47,615
Before the March of Flames, who had
just recently before this made the
1838
01:42:47,615 --> 01:42:52,278
"Art Damage" record that I talk about,
with a lot of love and compassion in
1839
01:42:52,298 --> 01:42:54,018
everywhere that I can shove that into.
1840
01:42:54,718 --> 01:42:58,708
So not a lot of guest work for this
band in general, so it was cool to have
1841
01:42:58,782 --> 01:43:02,852
someone like that on this song, uh, and
create something a little bit different.
1842
01:43:02,882 --> 01:43:05,842
Also, like, Tommy, as opposed
to most vocalists, kinda does
1843
01:43:05,882 --> 01:43:09,392
every metal vocal style which is
something we haven't mentioned.
1844
01:43:09,402 --> 01:43:12,162
He's pretty, pretty good at what he does.
1845
01:43:12,352 --> 01:43:12,372
Yeah.
1846
01:43:13,572 --> 01:43:16,762
so to have somebody else who could
do something actually materially
1847
01:43:16,762 --> 01:43:19,222
different from him was a cool
way to bring in some texture.
1848
01:43:19,932 --> 01:43:23,582
then we've mentioned here a couple
of times, but, like, "Viridian" is a
1849
01:43:23,592 --> 01:43:29,912
straight up end-to-end n- non-metal
track for you if you'd like, and has,
1850
01:43:30,042 --> 01:43:35,602
starting at around 50 seconds in, is
a bass solo that should delight you
1851
01:43:35,642 --> 01:43:37,742
if you're alive and on planet Earth.
1852
01:43:37,933 --> 01:43:42,563
Dan Briggs could carry five
bands on his 5'8" back.
1853
01:43:42,913 --> 01:43:46,383
Uh, I don't know how tall he is, but
I think he's n- normal size like me.
1854
01:43:46,746 --> 01:43:48,066
dude is just incredible.
1855
01:43:48,106 --> 01:43:51,936
I… The more that I listen to him, the
more I want to listen to what he does.
1856
01:43:52,394 --> 01:43:56,724
every bit of everything this band has done
is interesting because of what he does.
1857
01:43:57,174 --> 01:43:59,514
Uh, and his other music
is really cool too, so.
1858
01:43:59,524 --> 01:44:03,024
Even styles I'm not super into, it's
just like I respect the s**t out of it.
1859
01:44:03,114 --> 01:44:04,194
It's incredible to watch.
1860
01:44:04,516 --> 01:44:05,926
Kyle: I know he's got
a couple of projects.
1861
01:44:05,946 --> 01:44:08,316
Trioscapes is the other big one.
1862
01:44:08,668 --> 01:44:08,978
Cliff: Yeah.
1863
01:44:09,276 --> 01:44:09,646
Kyle: Yeah,
1864
01:44:10,026 --> 01:44:14,196
Cliff: Yeah, and he's got one
working up now and I can't remember
1865
01:44:14,196 --> 01:44:15,456
the name of it off the top.
1866
01:44:15,836 --> 01:44:19,486
Well, "Orbs" was another one a
while back that he did as well.
1867
01:44:19,866 --> 01:44:23,476
so anyway he's just an incredible person
to listen to across any of these records.
1868
01:44:23,705 --> 01:44:28,975
but like I mentioned at the top, so
even just generically speaking, Between
1869
01:44:28,975 --> 01:44:32,295
the Buried and Me does similarly
shaped things on other records.
1870
01:44:32,575 --> 01:44:35,985
So they have tracks like this
on a lot of other records.
1871
01:44:35,985 --> 01:44:40,775
So "Shove and I'll Take Two," on earlier
records than on "Alaska," "Medicine Wheel"
1872
01:44:40,775 --> 01:44:46,242
and "Laser Speed" both are super chill,
for different reasons and really cool.
1873
01:44:46,862 --> 01:44:50,902
In a later release "Desert of Song"
is a cool super chill interlude.
1874
01:44:51,282 --> 01:44:55,512
Honestly, you could make a decent EP
just out of songs that they do that are
1875
01:44:55,512 --> 01:44:58,822
like this and you'd have a good time
and I wouldn't hate you for it at all.
1876
01:44:59,202 --> 01:45:02,333
Then I suppose the, the last
song which we must cover.
1877
01:45:03,127 --> 01:45:07,677
Speaking of all the energy that we've
talked about so far and being the age
1878
01:45:07,677 --> 01:45:12,217
we were and with friends and everything
that we were, and yes, the, the hoedown
1879
01:45:12,217 --> 01:45:15,837
and the silliness of everything that's
involved in liking this music, yes,
1880
01:45:16,187 --> 01:45:17,467
all those things are still true.
1881
01:45:17,877 --> 01:45:22,327
On the other hand, "White Walls"
is like so f**king important to me
1882
01:45:22,697 --> 01:45:27,387
that it makes me kind of want to
cry sometimes because like it was,
1883
01:45:27,647 --> 01:45:30,167
it be- like it became shorthand.
1884
01:45:30,187 --> 01:45:35,017
Saying white walls to another person that
I knew or that they would say it to me
1885
01:45:35,017 --> 01:45:38,457
became shorthand for like, you got this.
1886
01:45:38,737 --> 01:45:40,167
You're about to do whatever it is you
1887
01:45:40,221 --> 01:45:40,831
Kyle: Go for it.
1888
01:45:41,157 --> 01:45:41,537
Cliff: Yeah
1889
01:45:41,829 --> 01:45:44,638
don't listen to the people
who aren't with you right now.
1890
01:45:44,731 --> 01:45:47,157
I mean, I guess in modern terms
that would've been f**k the haters.
1891
01:45:47,367 --> 01:45:48,797
We didn't know how to say that back then.
1892
01:45:48,937 --> 01:45:51,417
It was more like your mom
is very upset with you.
1893
01:45:51,757 --> 01:45:56,636
Um, but, but nevertheless, there were
important moments and this song came
1894
01:45:56,636 --> 01:46:00,406
at an important moment and it's about
being at an important moment and saying,
1895
01:46:00,656 --> 01:46:04,216
"I understand what I have in front of
me and I'm gonna do whatever it is that
1896
01:46:04,216 --> 01:46:08,866
I want to do with it, with intention,
knowing that this is what I will be about.
1897
01:46:09,576 --> 01:46:12,736
This is my whole existence, is what I'm
doing right now and in this moment."
1898
01:46:13,297 --> 01:46:16,597
The simplicity and directness of that
combined with the song that it is
1899
01:46:16,597 --> 01:46:20,887
and how much it just, it hypes you
up no matter how much you want it to,
1900
01:46:21,435 --> 01:46:25,035
Kyle: I, I rue the millennial
misuse of the word epic.
1901
01:46:25,035 --> 01:46:29,795
I, I hate how that word has
gotten watered down, and I, I
1902
01:46:29,795 --> 01:46:32,945
almost shudder to say it out loud.
1903
01:46:33,085 --> 01:46:40,055
But in the classic dictionary definition,
in the original literary sense of
1904
01:46:40,065 --> 01:46:42,715
the term, this song is an epic.
1905
01:46:43,035 --> 01:46:47,195
It is epic in its proportion and ambition.
1906
01:46:47,537 --> 01:46:50,837
If you are fresh off the energy,
once again, of Nolan's "Odyssey,"
1907
01:46:51,227 --> 01:46:53,247
the "White Walls" is that.
1908
01:46:53,247 --> 01:46:58,867
"White Walls" is an epic, and it is
meant to inspire epic feelings in your
1909
01:46:58,877 --> 01:47:04,417
being, and I love that after all these
years, it still does that for you.
1910
01:47:04,427 --> 01:47:08,814
Because there are many cliffs that I
know and have attempted to describe
1911
01:47:08,974 --> 01:47:13,764
over our conversations in this podcast,
but one of the best cliffs and, and
1912
01:47:13,764 --> 01:47:16,604
one of the ones that I probably don't
appreciate out loud enough is the one
1913
01:47:16,604 --> 01:47:19,404
that's like, " I can f**king do anything."
1914
01:47:20,064 --> 01:47:24,011
You maybe alluded to it a little
with the like I can go conquer,
1915
01:47:24,021 --> 01:47:27,061
literally conquer a mountain with
my body," when we were talking about
1916
01:47:27,061 --> 01:47:32,801
twigs. But there's the like "I didn't
have a college education for this.
1917
01:47:32,831 --> 01:47:38,898
I can just figure out, computers and
I can be a philosopher and a computer
1918
01:47:38,908 --> 01:47:44,783
person and a whatever," or, "I can
move across the country and restart
1919
01:47:44,793 --> 01:47:47,113
my life in a way that makes me happy."
1920
01:47:47,503 --> 01:47:53,893
"White Walls" reflects the same stunning
clarity through which it has always seemed
1921
01:47:53,893 --> 01:47:58,783
that you can pierce through space and
time with your vision for what it means
1922
01:47:58,783 --> 01:48:00,983
to be alive as a human on this earth.
1923
01:48:01,363 --> 01:48:02,413
So I admire that.
1924
01:48:02,773 --> 01:48:05,243
It is very much you in
song form in a lot of ways.
1925
01:48:05,623 --> 01:48:08,183
Too much earnest, Cliff
has to cut the episode.
1926
01:48:10,363 --> 01:48:13,093
Staring directly at the
eclipse without sunglasses
1927
01:48:14,088 --> 01:48:17,038
Cliff: Well, you know as well as I do
that it's never fear in that moment.
1928
01:48:17,068 --> 01:48:20,218
It's, I contain at least three
multitudes, all of whom want to
1929
01:48:20,218 --> 01:48:21,768
respond to this at the same time,
1930
01:48:21,952 --> 01:48:22,372
Kyle: Yep.
1931
01:48:23,162 --> 01:48:24,002
That's what I'm saying.
1932
01:48:24,012 --> 01:48:25,862
You wanna go as big as possible.
1933
01:48:26,492 --> 01:48:29,822
You are the most earnest
person that I know.
1934
01:48:30,952 --> 01:48:32,982
It, d- it's too much, you know?
1935
01:48:32,982 --> 01:48:36,152
So I needed to give you s- I needed
to give you some sunglasses for
1936
01:48:36,152 --> 01:48:37,942
the cyclops lasers of your heart
1937
01:48:39,814 --> 01:48:43,194
Cliff: Honestly, albums like
this helped me to do it back then
1938
01:48:43,204 --> 01:48:47,334
when it felt like I was exploding
in every direction at one time
1939
01:48:47,902 --> 01:48:52,390
Kyle: The hard and the soft, like I would
put this with "Me Without You," as like
1940
01:48:52,410 --> 01:48:55,440
the, the two things that helped you focus
1941
01:48:56,232 --> 01:49:01,432
that big energy in the two right ways,
for the, the two types of people that
1942
01:49:01,432 --> 01:49:03,352
you would run across in your life.
1943
01:49:03,914 --> 01:49:06,714
Cliff: Honestly, and maybe this will
connect to another human being on Earth,
1944
01:49:06,714 --> 01:49:11,297
but yeah, I actually wrote down you know,
I shared in that episode, like if "Me
1945
01:49:11,297 --> 01:49:18,037
Without You" taught me how to like love
with my whole chest, this band taught
1946
01:49:18,037 --> 01:49:20,777
me to f**king think with my whole brain.
1947
01:49:21,657 --> 01:49:26,167
My whole life up until then, for
better or worse, people had told me
1948
01:49:26,167 --> 01:49:30,007
intentionally or not and this, this
feels so stupid knowing people like you.
1949
01:49:30,217 --> 01:49:34,267
I know so many smart people
now, but before I like was
1950
01:49:35,337 --> 01:49:35,357
Kyle: Yeah.
1951
01:49:35,657 --> 01:49:37,627
You can't help where you go
to high school, you know?
1952
01:49:38,197 --> 01:49:40,877
Cliff: Or, or just, you know, the
people that your parents put you
1953
01:49:40,877 --> 01:49:43,687
around are the people that your parents
put you around one way or the other.
1954
01:49:44,007 --> 01:49:49,167
And ev- yes, but in terms
of like smartness, right?
1955
01:49:49,227 --> 01:49:54,367
I, I was, for better or worse, often told
like, "If you find yourself feeling like
1956
01:49:54,367 --> 01:49:58,507
the smartest person in the room, like
you need to shut up so that someone else
1957
01:49:58,507 --> 01:50:05,047
doesn't feel bad about it," which doesn't
have a totally bad energy and maybe can
1958
01:50:05,047 --> 01:50:10,717
be communicated to a child, but is not the
thing that you should carry as is forward.
1959
01:50:11,107 --> 01:50:12,547
And I didn't know how to do that.
1960
01:50:12,757 --> 01:50:16,707
And stuff like this, y- hearing things
again that made me go, "Music can be
1961
01:50:16,707 --> 01:50:21,957
like this," was like, "Oh, I can be like
this." I do not have to shy away from
1962
01:50:21,957 --> 01:50:26,267
the fact that I can think about five
things at the speed that most people
1963
01:50:26,267 --> 01:50:28,047
can crank out about one and a half.
1964
01:50:28,387 --> 01:50:29,647
Like I'm good to go.
1965
01:50:29,837 --> 01:50:33,067
I'm sandbagging myself at
all moments in reality.
1966
01:50:33,297 --> 01:50:35,797
I'm stuck on a psychedelic forever.
1967
01:50:36,037 --> 01:50:38,307
Like this is who I am.
1968
01:50:38,307 --> 01:50:43,677
And like this, "White Walls" especially
like contains all of that within it.
1969
01:50:43,687 --> 01:50:45,037
I'm gonna do all this s**t.
1970
01:50:45,447 --> 01:50:47,837
I'm gonna be tough as nails.
1971
01:50:48,197 --> 01:50:50,917
And then also I'm gonna end
on a pleasant sweet note.
1972
01:50:51,287 --> 01:50:55,257
Kyle: I'm just picturing that meme of
Hannibal Buress on Eric Andre looking
1973
01:50:55,257 --> 01:50:58,097
at his hands like, "Oh, I can do this?"
1974
01:51:00,134 --> 01:51:01,614
Oh, beautiful
1975
01:51:02,291 --> 01:51:05,862
Cliff: There are moments within them,
but Out of all of it, honestly, like
1976
01:51:05,872 --> 01:51:10,222
the, the main one that it came back to
that was fun for the payoff, once again
1977
01:51:10,232 --> 01:51:16,062
you'd get an "Ants of the Sky"-esque, "I
know this song and I know what's coming"
1978
01:51:16,592 --> 01:51:18,302
from people who are at these shows.
1979
01:51:18,632 --> 01:51:25,442
And so at eight minutes and 30 seconds
comes the first time you get the breakdown
1980
01:51:25,672 --> 01:51:28,272
that everyone was waiting on in the song.
1981
01:51:28,492 --> 01:51:31,622
I can't express how much
I love that to this day.
1982
01:51:31,902 --> 01:51:36,152
They continued to write songs, especially
like ones at the end of the album,
1983
01:51:36,382 --> 01:51:40,622
like "Swim to the Moon" off their next
album, just absolutely a barn burner.
1984
01:51:40,652 --> 01:51:41,242
Insane.
1985
01:51:41,632 --> 01:51:45,572
And just like we're gonna shove all
of it into the last song that we
1986
01:51:45,572 --> 01:51:49,432
have, and also we're just gonna mostly
play set lists full of the last songs
1987
01:51:49,782 --> 01:51:53,962
on all of our albums and just the
intensity that goes all the way up and
1988
01:51:53,962 --> 01:51:59,382
then comes all the way back down off
of just from 100 to nothing and then
1989
01:51:59,382 --> 01:52:00,942
builds all the way back up to it again
1990
01:52:01,034 --> 01:52:04,464
Kyle: I mean, imagine, like really,
really think about being the kind of
1991
01:52:04,474 --> 01:52:10,594
band that your greatest hits is also
your, your most epic compositions.
1992
01:52:10,594 --> 01:52:13,124
Like that's the thing
that people want from you.
1993
01:52:13,124 --> 01:52:18,344
That's the community of appreciators
that you've built around you.
1994
01:52:18,344 --> 01:52:23,974
I, it speaks-- You have to be a
special, intentional, a- and diligent
1995
01:52:23,984 --> 01:52:30,356
and committed kind of musician to
create it speaks-- You have to be a
1996
01:52:30,409 --> 01:52:35,855
special, intentional, and diligent and
committed kind of musician to create
1997
01:52:35,865 --> 01:52:41,205
that sort of thing that exists at all
and, and then to be found by people.
1998
01:52:41,215 --> 01:52:46,215
That's a level of resonance
that seems almost mythological,
1999
01:52:46,235 --> 01:52:47,685
but, but they've done it.
2000
01:52:48,259 --> 01:52:50,969
Cliff: I will, unless you want me to
call out anything particular here,
2001
01:52:50,969 --> 01:52:52,469
you're ob- obviously welcome to.
2002
01:52:52,729 --> 01:52:58,259
The only other thing I'll mention is this
was an especially self-referential period
2003
01:52:58,369 --> 01:53:00,769
in their lives, uh, especially lyrically.
2004
01:53:01,109 --> 01:53:08,939
And so in this song, which is about
them being who they're going to be, they
2005
01:53:08,949 --> 01:53:12,789
do some like, it's not even a veiled
reference, it's just a direct reference.
2006
01:53:13,119 --> 01:53:16,699
There's a line that says, "They chose
Camilla and we stood by her the entire
2007
01:53:16,699 --> 01:53:22,199
time." Like, this is a reference
to a song off "Silent Circus" that
2008
01:53:22,199 --> 01:53:26,009
they're ef- they're effectively
saying, "We already don't like that
2009
01:53:26,009 --> 01:53:29,069
song very much, but we play it for you
because we f**king know you like it."
2010
01:53:29,291 --> 01:53:29,641
Kyle: Mm-hmm.
2011
01:53:30,119 --> 01:53:33,949
Cliff: And, like, to bring that in
here is cool and, like, I'm not gonna
2012
01:53:33,959 --> 01:53:35,769
overthink it either in this moment.
2013
01:53:35,789 --> 01:53:39,599
I'm sure when the lyrics were written,
it's not an overly serious thing.
2014
01:53:40,329 --> 01:53:45,159
But again, this, like, that reinforces
the sorta ethos of this band.
2015
01:53:45,479 --> 01:53:49,279
Like, "Mm, okay, we did have
that cool song that you liked.
2016
01:53:49,449 --> 01:53:51,959
What if, though, we did better?
2017
01:53:52,919 --> 01:53:54,929
We actually want you to
listen to this instead.
2018
01:53:55,149 --> 01:53:58,199
Like, we actually think that's not as good
as this thing over here and we need you
2019
01:53:58,199 --> 01:54:01,639
to hear this, and we don't wanna do that,
but we appreciate you for liking it."
2020
01:54:02,479 --> 01:54:05,319
Like, that's the kinda
s**t I'm into, okay?
2021
01:54:05,339 --> 01:54:06,739
There were a lot of bands at this time,
2022
01:54:06,927 --> 01:54:09,097
Kyle: Thinking Man's 311 down.
2023
01:54:10,499 --> 01:54:15,412
Cliff: Well, and, to take a, a bit of
uh, a shot for a band that I do honestly
2024
01:54:15,412 --> 01:54:17,022
love and loved a lot during this time.
2025
01:54:17,352 --> 01:54:20,692
Like, He Is Legend complained a lot
at this time about playing "I Am
2026
01:54:20,692 --> 01:54:25,422
Hollywood," which is a two minute and
41 second song that everyone loves
2027
01:54:25,422 --> 01:54:27,282
them for and they hated playing it.
2028
01:54:27,726 --> 01:54:32,596
Kyle: They blew, they blew up their
career over it, like hon- let's be honest.
2029
01:54:32,896 --> 01:54:35,346
And now, and, and now what?
2030
01:54:35,356 --> 01:54:39,396
Have done two years straight of touring
on that record, and it's a bit like, all
2031
01:54:39,656 --> 01:54:40,126
Cliff: Yeah.
2032
01:54:40,156 --> 01:54:40,546
Kyle: you.
2033
01:54:40,876 --> 01:54:41,406
Cliff: Yes.
2034
01:54:41,886 --> 01:54:44,566
Kyle: I can say that as maybe
the person who's seen more "He
2035
01:54:44,566 --> 01:54:46,486
Is Legend" shows than any living
2036
01:54:46,486 --> 01:54:50,266
person, and the person who has
been the most supportive of this
2037
01:54:50,286 --> 01:54:54,406
band, like the, the most vocal
fan of that band maybe ever.
2038
01:54:55,716 --> 01:54:59,616
and I'm still excited for whatever they
do next and, and think they're incredible.
2039
01:54:59,636 --> 01:55:02,686
But, uh, I endured "The
Slings & Arrows," so I can say
2040
01:55:02,696 --> 01:55:04,216
f**k you guys, that was stupid
2041
01:55:05,984 --> 01:55:10,644
Cliff: it was just not a fun
energy when you like the song.
2042
01:55:10,914 --> 01:55:15,564
So to come to this instead and it be a
little bit of a softer landing for like,
2043
01:55:15,694 --> 01:55:16,084
Kyle: Yeah.
2044
01:55:16,194 --> 01:55:18,244
Kind of the same thing
in a different font.
2045
01:55:18,474 --> 01:55:18,734
Cliff: Yeah.
2046
01:55:18,944 --> 01:55:19,794
Yeah, exactly.
2047
01:55:20,354 --> 01:55:21,024
Exactly.
2048
01:55:21,668 --> 01:55:26,531
Kyle: I mean, the, the only other
thing that I would say about " White
2049
01:55:26,531 --> 01:55:31,707
Walls," being in many ways one of their
masterpiece songs is, Dan Briggs, the
2050
01:55:31,707 --> 01:55:38,006
bassist, wrote a thing for Metal Injection
that's like a, a luxurious artifact, not
2051
01:55:38,006 --> 01:55:40,256
the kind of thing that you get very often.
2052
01:55:40,616 --> 01:55:43,706
Sometimes you'll get things where
they'll tell you their headspace of
2053
01:55:43,706 --> 01:55:47,906
the record right after they've made
the record, you know, and they'll,
2054
01:55:47,916 --> 01:55:50,216
they'll get kinda in the weeds on stuff.
2055
01:55:50,846 --> 01:55:56,166
This is a th- an essay that Dan wrote
as they were preparing to go out on tour
2056
01:55:56,516 --> 01:55:58,366
for this record for the 10th anniversary.
2057
01:55:58,406 --> 01:56:01,636
So there's, like, the clarity
of what we were thinking when we
2058
01:56:01,636 --> 01:56:06,706
made it, plus the hindsight of
how much we've evolved since then.
2059
01:56:07,256 --> 01:56:10,716
And he wrote a good bit about "White
Walls." He wrote about how the song
2060
01:56:10,766 --> 01:56:16,299
ends on a G-sharp minor chord, if I
recall correctly, and then, you know,
2061
01:56:16,309 --> 01:56:17,979
loops back around to it at the top.
2062
01:56:18,249 --> 01:56:24,759
He wrote about how the buildup into
the breakdown came from a section in
2063
01:56:24,899 --> 01:56:28,829
two minutes and 30 seconds of "Ants
in the Sky," and the key change is
2064
01:56:28,839 --> 01:56:30,479
also from the progression in "Ant."
2065
01:56:30,479 --> 01:56:34,049
So, like, the variation stuff
is on display between some
2066
01:56:34,049 --> 01:56:35,089
of their big epic things.
2067
01:56:35,549 --> 01:56:41,342
But the, thing that I hadn't
really thought much about until he
2068
01:56:41,342 --> 01:56:46,062
wrote about it in this essay was,
like, once again, Blake Richardson,
2069
01:56:46,537 --> 01:56:49,190
Blake the Steak appreciation post.
2070
01:56:49,801 --> 01:56:54,757
The last two-thirds of the song or
the last third from nine minutes on
2071
01:56:55,217 --> 01:57:01,067
is a polyrhythm masterclass, and it
is a, it's a technical chops clinic.
2072
01:57:01,570 --> 01:57:05,620
Dan said, "Blake kind of works in
mysterious ways to this day. He can find
2073
01:57:05,620 --> 01:57:08,860
a way to take a riff that feels weird
or a chunk of a song, and either by
2074
01:57:08,880 --> 01:57:12,790
just deleting it or rearranging a few
pieces and writing transitions, he can
2075
01:57:12,790 --> 01:57:15,930
make it suddenly work perfectly, which
is a great asset to have when you're
2076
01:57:15,930 --> 01:57:17,610
putting such a long song together."
2077
01:57:18,227 --> 01:57:24,990
There are things that he's playing that,
like, even in the era of y- you know,
2078
01:57:24,990 --> 01:57:28,850
like, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater came out
and now kids can do tricks that were
2079
01:57:28,850 --> 01:57:33,755
previously thought of as physically
impossible You watch some of those guys
2080
01:57:33,755 --> 01:57:42,414
on TikTok now that can play like Slipknot
one-handed and whatever, and some of
2081
01:57:42,424 --> 01:57:47,524
these things may seem kind of passe, but
like really honing in on the drumming for
2082
01:57:47,524 --> 01:57:52,674
certain parts of this record, especially
the end of this last song, you're like, "I
2083
01:57:52,814 --> 01:57:56,684
cannot believe a human body can do that."
2084
01:57:56,814 --> 01:58:00,959
It does not make sense what
is happening rhythmically
2085
01:58:01,499 --> 01:58:02,119
at all.
2086
01:58:02,622 --> 01:58:03,502
It's so tight
2087
01:58:03,834 --> 01:58:04,054
Cliff: Yep.
2088
01:58:04,084 --> 01:58:09,394
If we wanna cherry-pick any bit, 12
minutes and 10 seconds is so fast.
2089
01:58:10,044 --> 01:58:11,284
It's so fast.
2090
01:58:13,034 --> 01:58:14,714
And then they go right back
into something melodic.
2091
01:58:15,044 --> 01:58:19,784
It's… I literally wrote just like after
I took a note of that, just like, "I
2092
01:58:19,784 --> 01:58:21,944
love these dudes." I just, I love this.
2093
01:58:23,374 --> 01:58:26,984
And then like Kyle said, we, we
end right back where we started on
2094
01:58:27,034 --> 01:58:31,504
a piano chord that goes right back
into the beginning, which is sick.
2095
01:58:32,664 --> 01:58:33,194
So
2096
01:58:33,768 --> 01:58:38,678
Kyle: It, to your point about Queen,
ends exactly like "Bohemian Rhapsody"
2097
01:58:38,708 --> 01:58:43,858
with just the little, the little
ascending notes, you know, which makes
2098
01:58:43,858 --> 01:58:46,507
it feel all, the more epic in that way
2099
01:58:47,517 --> 01:58:48,187
Cliff: Absolutely.
2100
01:58:49,177 --> 01:58:49,477
Yeah.
2101
01:58:50,247 --> 01:58:57,877
This band has always felt to me like a
band who could perform at the scale of
2102
01:58:57,907 --> 01:59:00,587
like Live Aid '84 type stuff, right?
2103
01:59:00,797 --> 01:59:01,257
Just like
2104
01:59:01,481 --> 01:59:04,871
Kyle: lit- literally on top of
a mountain with a laser show.
2105
01:59:05,007 --> 01:59:05,617
Cliff: Yes.
2106
01:59:07,437 --> 01:59:11,367
And, uh, you know, I, I don't, I
don't know whether it's bittersweet
2107
01:59:11,367 --> 01:59:16,397
or not that they never found a huge
audience to the extent that peers
2108
01:59:16,397 --> 01:59:19,127
like Gojira or somebody like that did.
2109
01:59:19,537 --> 01:59:22,897
Um, I don't know whether that's good or
bad, but I do know they've been touring
2110
01:59:22,897 --> 01:59:24,737
consistently for this entire time.
2111
01:59:24,947 --> 01:59:26,047
They seem to love music.
2112
01:59:26,047 --> 01:59:30,017
They continue to crank out
awesome stuff and like they've
2113
01:59:30,377 --> 01:59:34,837
Kyle: Including their new record from
ear- earlier this year, last year?
2114
01:59:34,867 --> 01:59:35,977
When did "Blue Nowhere" come out?
2115
01:59:36,979 --> 01:59:38,279
Cliff: It should've been
late last year, yeah.
2116
01:59:38,845 --> 01:59:39,905
Kyle: So good.
2117
01:59:40,105 --> 01:59:42,025
Just, just re-listened to it.
2118
01:59:42,375 --> 01:59:47,095
Like, I'd put "God Terror" up there
with anything that they've ever done.
2119
01:59:47,755 --> 01:59:54,135
A great record, and still, uh, taking risk
is a weird phrase for this band, where
2120
01:59:54,135 --> 01:59:56,745
it's like, what, what does that even mean?
2121
01:59:57,584 --> 02:00:02,032
still producing different sounds
that, give y- I still have the
2122
02:00:02,032 --> 02:00:06,382
capacity to be surprised by the kinds
of things they, they incorporate
2123
02:00:07,514 --> 02:00:07,954
Cliff: Totally.
2124
02:00:10,324 --> 02:00:12,694
To that note, calling out God Tear.
2125
02:00:12,904 --> 02:00:17,764
They released a live version of that from
Denver in 2025, and I was like, "Hey, oh,
2126
02:00:18,334 --> 02:00:20,394
I was there. You can hear me breathing."
2127
02:00:23,218 --> 02:00:23,828
Kyle: You can't.
2128
02:00:23,868 --> 02:00:27,528
It was very loud, but I appreciate it
2129
02:00:27,926 --> 02:00:35,422
Cliff: Yeah Do you want to point
me in a direction to quickly run
2130
02:00:35,422 --> 02:00:37,282
through some of where to go next?
2131
02:00:38,042 --> 02:00:39,542
Or should I rip it?
2132
02:00:39,682 --> 02:00:40,962
Or would you like to go
2133
02:00:43,104 --> 02:00:51,364
Kyle: I mean, I have such a long list
that I, I thought it, it might be
2134
02:00:51,364 --> 02:00:56,544
helpful if I actually specifically
pointed to just a handful of records,
2135
02:00:56,712 --> 02:00:57,342
Cliff: Yeah, sure
2136
02:00:57,594 --> 02:00:58,704
Kyle: actual records.
2137
02:00:58,744 --> 02:01:04,546
But I'd be much more interested
in what you-- Like, we're speaking
2138
02:01:04,546 --> 02:01:05,606
your language on this thing.
2139
02:01:05,606 --> 02:01:07,486
I'd be much more interested in
what you have to say, and then
2140
02:01:07,486 --> 02:01:11,673
if I have any, like, big gaps to
fill in, I might, I might do that.
2141
02:01:11,873 --> 02:01:12,723
Cliff: Okay, let's do it.
2142
02:01:12,783 --> 02:01:16,563
I'm betting I'll have some crossover
with, with things you have in the
2143
02:01:16,909 --> 02:01:19,579
Kyle: I feel pretty safe assuming that.
2144
02:01:20,173 --> 02:01:21,533
Cliff: We know each other and have been
2145
02:01:21,799 --> 02:01:27,829
Kyle: We've been side by side at enough
shows of this exact kind of thing
2146
02:01:27,839 --> 02:01:29,999
that, like, I got a pretty good idea
2147
02:01:30,275 --> 02:01:30,575
Cliff: Yeah.
2148
02:01:32,085 --> 02:01:32,355
Yeah.
2149
02:01:32,635 --> 02:01:35,895
You know, sometimes theoretically our
wives ask us, "What do you guys talk
2150
02:01:35,905 --> 02:01:37,095
about at dinner?" This f**king, this.
2151
02:01:37,495 --> 02:01:37,875
This
2152
02:01:38,657 --> 02:01:39,637
Kyle: Where we're going, we don't
2153
02:01:39,795 --> 02:01:40,675
Cliff: is what we're about to play.
2154
02:01:40,675 --> 02:01:40,915
Yeah.
2155
02:01:41,137 --> 02:01:41,417
Kyle: Yeah.
2156
02:01:42,435 --> 02:01:45,005
Cliff: I order catfish and then we… Yes.
2157
02:01:46,595 --> 02:01:53,145
So, so one, first of all, delighted to
say this band has an extreme catalog.
2158
02:01:53,755 --> 02:01:55,285
There is a lot of music
2159
02:01:55,989 --> 02:01:56,369
Kyle: we're up
2160
02:01:56,475 --> 02:01:59,125
Cliff: to Something like that, man.
2161
02:01:59,555 --> 02:02:04,315
Persistent, different, consistently great.
2162
02:02:04,525 --> 02:02:08,025
Like, I don't love every record the same,
but they're all really, really good.
2163
02:02:08,069 --> 02:02:09,039
Kyle: But I respect them all.
2164
02:02:09,285 --> 02:02:09,865
Cliff: Yes.
2165
02:02:10,445 --> 02:02:15,825
Um, for me, my favorite like run
or collection of the… Well, first
2166
02:02:15,825 --> 02:02:18,555
let me mention, like I mentioned
earlier, they literally made a sort
2167
02:02:18,555 --> 02:02:23,075
of like sequel to this record called
"Colors II" and released in 2021.
2168
02:02:23,275 --> 02:02:24,025
It's very cool.
2169
02:02:24,175 --> 02:02:28,085
If you like this record, and especially
if you listen to it a few times to pick
2170
02:02:28,085 --> 02:02:31,125
up on some of the things we're talking
about, you will enjoy it because then
2171
02:02:31,125 --> 02:02:34,305
they do a meta version of that on a
totally different record entirely.
2172
02:02:35,065 --> 02:02:38,755
Just, uh, yeah, you, you
gotta earn that level of nerd,
2173
02:02:38,851 --> 02:02:42,831
Kyle: But to be clear, it's
not like a nostalgia cash-in.
2174
02:02:43,291 --> 02:02:43,541
It's
2175
02:02:43,643 --> 02:02:44,313
Cliff: Different songs
2176
02:02:44,541 --> 02:02:46,271
Kyle: it's not the same thing.
2177
02:02:46,271 --> 02:02:50,951
But yeah, it's-- We were trying
to evoke the same intensity of
2178
02:02:50,951 --> 02:02:52,931
inspiration that we were feeling.
2179
02:02:52,941 --> 02:02:57,281
It was like we felt like we were at
another do or die moment, so let's really
2180
02:02:57,281 --> 02:03:03,531
go for it and like make our most intense,
most BT BAM record possible on this thing.
2181
02:03:03,671 --> 02:03:05,391
It was, it was like a rallying cry.
2182
02:03:06,483 --> 02:03:11,163
Cliff: Yes, and you'll catch
references to the music itself from
2183
02:03:11,163 --> 02:03:12,933
"Colors," which is just a fun thing,
2184
02:03:13,109 --> 02:03:19,009
Kyle: Which is very cool to be able to do
that without tipping into too many nods,
2185
02:03:19,009 --> 02:03:22,219
too much callback, all sort of thing.
2186
02:03:22,509 --> 02:03:22,769
Yeah.
2187
02:03:23,611 --> 02:03:25,301
Cliff: So that's pretty easy.
2188
02:03:25,731 --> 02:03:27,891
Uh, again, I, I've loved a lot of it.
2189
02:03:27,901 --> 02:03:33,781
My, my favorite kind of run though is
through this one, through "Colors," they
2190
02:03:33,781 --> 02:03:38,291
do "The Great Misdirect," which is also
great, and then they hit "The Parallax"
2191
02:03:38,291 --> 02:03:44,621
and "The Parallax II." To me, in the we
are searching for progressive technical
2192
02:03:44,681 --> 02:03:50,251
prog something, when they were doing
that move, that was the apex of it.
2193
02:03:50,251 --> 02:03:57,011
"Parallax II" is one of the coolest
sounding metal records I'm aware of.
2194
02:03:57,381 --> 02:03:59,171
It's got hooks I'll never forget.
2195
02:03:59,661 --> 02:04:01,921
It's got parts like we talked about today.
2196
02:04:02,211 --> 02:04:04,311
It, it's, it's got everything mixed in.
2197
02:04:05,213 --> 02:04:08,563
Kyle: I mean, if there were
no "Ants of the Sky," "Telos"
2198
02:04:08,583 --> 02:04:11,183
would be my favorite BTBAM song.
2199
02:04:11,193 --> 02:04:15,683
The, the "Was I ever really alive"
part toward the end of that is like…
2200
02:04:16,073 --> 02:04:19,873
I had not listened to that record
when we saw them on that tour, and I
2201
02:04:19,873 --> 02:04:25,973
remember seeing that song being like,
"Damn, dude." It just blew me away.
2202
02:04:27,353 --> 02:04:27,443
Cliff: Yep.
2203
02:04:28,823 --> 02:04:31,833
So I'd point people directly to that
one, especially if you were kind of
2204
02:04:32,083 --> 02:04:37,193
captured by the major key and kinda
anthemic moments that they'll do.
2205
02:04:37,243 --> 02:04:40,263
I, I just… It really feels
dialed in by that particular point.
2206
02:04:40,583 --> 02:04:41,483
And I mean, dude, that was 2012.
2207
02:04:41,483 --> 02:04:45,203
2012 was such a weird and
awesome year in general.
2208
02:04:45,603 --> 02:04:51,013
Um, the, the Mayans left us on read and
everything went downhill after that.
2209
02:04:51,583 --> 02:04:51,953
Um,
2210
02:04:54,957 --> 02:04:57,387
Kyle: Oh, the apocalypse
already happened, Cliff.
2211
02:04:57,623 --> 02:04:59,623
Cliff: I, I know.
2212
02:05:00,503 --> 02:05:02,733
But you were one of the only people
I could tell at the time that I
2213
02:05:02,733 --> 02:05:05,353
was actually disappointed that the
thing didn't happen, 'cause I knew
2214
02:05:05,353 --> 02:05:06,743
what day it was supposed to happen.
2215
02:05:07,007 --> 02:05:08,217
Kyle: The green flash.
2216
02:05:09,217 --> 02:05:11,837
Yeah, the green flash was the
friends we made along the way
2217
02:05:13,541 --> 02:05:16,892
Cliff: So lots to love in
their discog- discography.
2218
02:05:17,164 --> 02:05:21,174
Going backwards is less recommended,
not 'cause it's bad, but because
2219
02:05:21,174 --> 02:05:23,454
they became a totally different
band like we were talking about
2220
02:05:23,454 --> 02:05:24,814
by the time "Alaska" came around.
2221
02:05:25,144 --> 02:05:26,764
So "Silent Circus" is awesome.
2222
02:05:26,804 --> 02:05:27,924
"Alaska" is awesome.
2223
02:05:27,934 --> 02:05:28,804
I love both of those.
2224
02:05:28,834 --> 02:05:32,714
The self-titled is a little less,
especially if you're identifying with
2225
02:05:32,714 --> 02:05:33,884
a lot of the things on this record.
2226
02:05:33,884 --> 02:05:35,594
So, uh, all good there.
2227
02:05:36,114 --> 02:05:42,154
Now I think I can point in some
generic directions that are inspired
2228
02:05:42,164 --> 02:05:45,664
by different aspects of what this band
is doing, because let me tell you,
2229
02:05:45,664 --> 02:05:49,144
Kyle hinted at, at this earlier, but
I gotta say, as somebody who likes
2230
02:05:49,164 --> 02:05:53,064
this band, I sure don't f**king like
any of the bands that are related to
2231
02:05:53,064 --> 02:05:55,094
them according to various algorithms.
2232
02:05:55,724 --> 02:05:57,794
I, like, I cannot e- explain it.
2233
02:05:57,884 --> 02:05:58,694
I don't know.
2234
02:05:58,954 --> 02:06:02,664
And like, and these are bands who
are, like, in Associated Press
2235
02:06:02,674 --> 02:06:06,924
in 2009 being like, "This band is
because of Between the Buried and Me."
2236
02:06:07,734 --> 02:06:12,014
And I'm like, "I… Okay, I don't hear
it, but okay, you did get an eight-string
2237
02:06:12,014 --> 02:06:16,924
guitar, and that is pretty cool to
see, I guess." but pointing in a few
2238
02:06:16,924 --> 02:06:20,664
different directions, none of which are
basically this band sounds like this band.
2239
02:06:21,174 --> 02:06:26,884
One of them would be, uh, especially
if you like the sort of larger,
2240
02:06:26,894 --> 02:06:31,444
more… Like Kyle described it as epic
without being millennially cringe.
2241
02:06:31,844 --> 02:06:36,864
Like, Opeth is where you wanna go if
you're sort of into metal darkness.
2242
02:06:36,884 --> 02:06:37,664
I like this.
2243
02:06:37,704 --> 02:06:38,934
I like some singing.
2244
02:06:39,284 --> 02:06:40,394
I like melody.
2245
02:06:40,844 --> 02:06:42,594
Like, Opeth is pretty rad, man.
2246
02:06:42,894 --> 02:06:45,104
Gojira is not far behind in my book.
2247
02:06:45,184 --> 02:06:50,514
Both, you know, across the seas
cousins of this type of music exactly.
2248
02:06:50,724 --> 02:06:53,685
I'm sure Opeth themselves
were, an influence on Between
2249
02:06:53,685 --> 02:06:54,635
the Buried and Me to begin with.
2250
02:06:54,645 --> 02:06:59,065
But uh, I mean, seeing Gojira at the
Olympics, uh, uh, when that happened
2251
02:06:59,065 --> 02:07:03,405
was cool, but all I could think about
was how much they probably owed that
2252
02:07:03,535 --> 02:07:06,365
to bands like Between the Buried and
Me, which they have more or less talked
2253
02:07:06,365 --> 02:07:07,625
about in the past, which is cool.
2254
02:07:08,687 --> 02:07:14,047
in in another sort of direction of
if you can get down with the metal
2255
02:07:14,047 --> 02:07:19,017
aspect of it and maybe turn the knob
up to where it doesn't go back to, uh,
2256
02:07:19,037 --> 02:07:22,497
as much of the sort of melodic major
key stuff, a band me and Kyle have
2257
02:07:22,497 --> 02:07:26,777
seen a lot who is, like, taking over
the world now, Blood Incantation is
2258
02:07:26,919 --> 02:07:27,489
Kyle: yeah
2259
02:07:28,587 --> 02:07:31,347
Cliff: they are the we take
music seriously, don't you
2260
02:07:31,347 --> 02:07:33,827
love us for it band of the day.
2261
02:07:34,427 --> 02:07:35,447
S- so
2262
02:07:35,705 --> 02:07:42,155
Kyle: Yeah, that, that Blood Incantation
set at Decibel filled me… I, I hadn't
2263
02:07:42,155 --> 02:07:44,685
made the connection till you just said
it, but it filled me with the same
2264
02:07:44,685 --> 02:07:46,945
feelings of like, music can be this?
2265
02:07:47,445 --> 02:07:53,425
And, and on its face, so much of
it is just like metal stuff, but
2266
02:07:53,435 --> 02:07:57,395
they do it so well, and it's how
they do it, and it's the visuals
2267
02:07:57,395 --> 02:08:02,255
and the ideas and the everything
between the more traditional parts.
2268
02:08:02,918 --> 02:08:06,548
yeah, they are-- That's a superb
outfit, Blood Incantation,
2269
02:08:06,558 --> 02:08:08,128
who just played at Pompeii,
2270
02:08:08,756 --> 02:08:08,926
Cliff: Yeah.
2271
02:08:09,278 --> 02:08:12,598
Kyle: uh, which is incred-
Were they opening for Opeth?
2272
02:08:12,598 --> 02:08:13,718
Somebody like that.
2273
02:08:13,896 --> 02:08:14,636
Cliff: I think so, yeah
2274
02:08:15,241 --> 02:08:18,121
Kyle: Just a great moment, and
obviously both of those bands
2275
02:08:18,425 --> 02:08:20,195
owe a great debt to Pink Floyd.
2276
02:08:20,895 --> 02:08:23,505
Um, so a beautiful full
circle moment there.
2277
02:08:23,637 --> 02:08:24,187
Cliff: Totally.
2278
02:08:24,407 --> 02:08:24,877
Totally.
2279
02:08:25,350 --> 02:08:27,720
Moving through a few
other categories quickly.
2280
02:08:27,990 --> 02:08:31,771
I'll call this category time signatures
are just a number, but I sing sometimes.
2281
02:08:32,841 --> 02:08:38,141
Dillinger Escape Plan, Car Bomb,
Callous Daoboys are all in this, "Oh,
2282
02:08:38,191 --> 02:08:41,911
okay, I enjoy not totally knowing
what's gonna happen next" category.
2283
02:08:42,201 --> 02:08:45,381
If you're down, that is a
cool rabbit hole to chase.
2284
02:08:45,421 --> 02:08:48,891
There's a lot of cool music in just
in those three bands, honestly.
2285
02:08:49,431 --> 02:08:51,731
Um, but everything else
connected to it is pretty cool.
2286
02:08:52,301 --> 02:08:54,881
Kyle: Callous Da Boyz is not
one that I had thought of.
2287
02:08:54,891 --> 02:09:00,259
If you dialed up the BTBAM sense of
humor to like E-E-ETID level f**kery,
2288
02:09:00,421 --> 02:09:01,141
Cliff: a good call.
2289
02:09:01,141 --> 02:09:01,451
Yeah.
2290
02:09:01,469 --> 02:09:04,922
Kyle: where it's like, "All right,
kids," that's Callous Da Boyz.
2291
02:09:04,932 --> 02:09:09,322
But yeah, they are constantly doing
stuff musically where I'm like, "Mm,
2292
02:09:09,342 --> 02:09:13,452
that, that's good." It's like watching
a young basketball player where you're
2293
02:09:13,452 --> 02:09:15,492
like, "Oh, the game's about to change."
2294
02:09:16,042 --> 02:09:20,272
That last Callous Da Boyz record, every
time I listen back through it, I'm like,
2295
02:09:20,782 --> 02:09:22,122
"S**t, this is something else, bro."
2296
02:09:23,254 --> 02:09:26,994
Cliff: And, and another good just
specific example of the like,
2297
02:09:27,194 --> 02:09:29,864
if you're not down with it, it
feels random and frustrates you.
2298
02:09:31,424 --> 02:09:34,864
But as soon as you sort of click into it,
it's, "Oh, okay, no, this is part of the
2299
02:09:34,864 --> 02:09:37,272
riff. I get it." So lots to chase there.
2300
02:09:37,576 --> 02:09:43,455
In a similar but much more like m-
mature and all the dads will understand
2301
02:09:43,455 --> 02:09:49,457
where you're coming from vein is just
like bands of everyone being especially
2302
02:09:49,457 --> 02:09:52,287
good and playing full out all the time.
2303
02:09:52,547 --> 02:09:58,237
So Led Zeppelin, The Mars Volta,
Mahavishnu Orchestra, Billy Cobham,
2304
02:09:58,747 --> 02:10:04,957
and I would even give a pretty loose
association to like Miles Davis in his
2305
02:10:04,957 --> 02:10:09,687
bandleader era, where it was just like
controlled chaos of everyone doing
2306
02:10:09,853 --> 02:10:11,513
Kyle: Like 70s miles?
2307
02:10:11,617 --> 02:10:12,297
Cliff: Yes.
2308
02:10:12,737 --> 02:10:13,097
Yeah
2309
02:10:13,317 --> 02:10:17,337
This is definitely, like you said, more
precise and less abstract than that,
2310
02:10:17,637 --> 02:10:19,197
but in the, in the sense of controlling
2311
02:10:19,219 --> 02:10:21,839
Kyle: Yeah, but in the best
moments of like a Pangea,
2312
02:10:22,707 --> 02:10:23,037
Cliff: Yeah.
2313
02:10:23,369 --> 02:10:25,256
Kyle: you get that same sense, yeah.
2314
02:10:26,099 --> 02:10:30,971
BT BAM is like you could recommend
a whole bunch of free jazz, like I
2315
02:10:30,971 --> 02:10:32,881
thought about Coltrane's "Ascension,"
2316
02:10:32,953 --> 02:10:33,293
Cliff: Yeah.
2317
02:10:33,603 --> 02:10:33,963
Yeah
2318
02:10:34,691 --> 02:10:38,721
Kyle: or Albert Ayler, and then I
thought about jazz fusion, like you said,
2319
02:10:38,731 --> 02:10:41,061
Mahavishnu or like a Weather Report.
2320
02:10:41,441 --> 02:10:45,731
Billy Cobham's "Spectrum" I think
is probably the best like sort of
2321
02:10:45,731 --> 02:10:47,711
point in the middle of that triangle.
2322
02:10:48,277 --> 02:10:55,387
It is very jazz-like, but it is a
separate third thing from too free or too
2323
02:10:55,397 --> 02:10:58,257
fusion-y, um, that makes it really cool.
2324
02:10:58,667 --> 02:10:58,937
Cliff: Yep
2325
02:10:59,357 --> 02:11:05,737
Kyle: And it is also not jazz metal,
which is its own thing where it's trying
2326
02:11:05,737 --> 02:11:08,607
to be that, and I don't like any of that.
2327
02:11:08,767 --> 02:11:15,177
With, with respect to the people doing it
and doing it well, not my thing at all.
2328
02:11:15,737 --> 02:11:21,127
BT BAM is good jazz metal because
they're not trying to play jazz or metal
2329
02:11:22,151 --> 02:11:22,731
Cliff: Yes.
2330
02:11:23,431 --> 02:11:23,971
Yes.
2331
02:11:24,361 --> 02:11:27,961
Also, I'll mention in a second
what I believe will be the closest
2332
02:11:27,961 --> 02:11:30,731
thing to jazz metal that you
do like that I know for sure.
2333
02:11:31,202 --> 02:11:33,252
But before we get there,
a couple other categories.
2334
02:11:33,502 --> 02:11:36,902
Uh, this would be the Meadly Me category.
2335
02:11:36,912 --> 02:11:39,732
So just like people playing really
f**king fast and it's not always
2336
02:11:39,752 --> 02:11:42,662
great, but it's really entertaining
to watch people do it this way.
2337
02:11:42,982 --> 02:11:45,472
Um, Archspire is a band I saw recently.
2338
02:11:45,762 --> 02:11:47,512
They're some f**king goobers, man.
2339
02:11:47,772 --> 02:11:50,652
Honestly, like it's, it's a
little silly to see them live.
2340
02:11:50,952 --> 02:11:53,822
It's also incredibly precise and wild.
2341
02:11:53,880 --> 02:11:54,730
Kyle: They're so good
2342
02:11:56,162 --> 02:11:57,292
Cliff: it's so wild to see.
2343
02:11:57,607 --> 02:12:03,147
but other bands who were doing similar
sort of wild stuff even at this time
2344
02:12:03,877 --> 02:12:06,987
would've been in bands that would've
gone on tour with them or did.
2345
02:12:07,277 --> 02:12:11,797
So The Fall of Troy and Protest
the Hero were pretty big offshoots
2346
02:12:11,807 --> 02:12:13,807
of this genre of music back then.
2347
02:12:14,107 --> 02:12:18,307
Like fast drumming, fast guitar playing,
you know, quick time changes and stuff.
2348
02:12:18,757 --> 02:12:20,157
Um, can't say there's a huge dis-
2349
02:12:20,709 --> 02:12:25,789
Kyle: and really soulful, like
good songcraft once again.
2350
02:12:26,109 --> 02:12:30,309
Songs that if you technically
executed them with a lot less flourish
2351
02:12:30,729 --> 02:12:33,319
would just be like good pop songs
2352
02:12:33,419 --> 02:12:33,949
Cliff: Yeah.
2353
02:12:34,443 --> 02:12:34,993
totally.
2354
02:12:35,355 --> 02:12:39,055
So two more bands in this category
that don't meet that criteria, but
2355
02:12:39,935 --> 02:12:45,875
uh, Dragonforce and Buried Alive are
both bands that are like, "Listen,
2356
02:12:45,895 --> 02:12:49,935
man, I'm not saying go love yourself
for loving Dragonforce all the time
2357
02:12:49,935 --> 02:12:52,185
or whatever," although they did
just get the Arch Enemy singer in.
2358
02:12:52,185 --> 02:12:52,795
That's interesting.
2359
02:12:53,775 --> 02:12:54,745
Kyle: DragonForce did?
2360
02:12:54,925 --> 02:12:55,655
Cliff: yeah, yeah.
2361
02:12:55,685 --> 02:12:56,705
Kyle: Jesus.
2362
02:12:57,445 --> 02:12:57,785
Cliff: Yeah.
2363
02:12:57,875 --> 02:12:59,825
Kyle: They got enough of a
following still where that's a
2364
02:12:59,825 --> 02:13:01,375
financially viable decision for
2365
02:13:01,541 --> 02:13:01,781
Cliff: Yep.
2366
02:13:01,951 --> 02:13:03,041
This, yes.
2367
02:13:03,601 --> 02:13:05,121
This, it's gonna be pretty huge for them.
2368
02:13:05,121 --> 02:13:05,791
It's kinda cool.
2369
02:13:06,251 --> 02:13:08,601
Um, I say that as a not Dragon Force fan.
2370
02:13:08,775 --> 02:13:13,315
Kyle: I remember an opener, I'm not
going to name this person, writing on
2371
02:13:13,315 --> 02:13:17,965
their MySpace blog, like I, I remember
reading it sitting at my computer
2372
02:13:17,965 --> 02:13:20,532
in my college apartment, said…
2373
02:13:20,962 --> 02:13:23,042
And they'd been on tour with him
for like a month, and he said, "I
2374
02:13:23,042 --> 02:13:27,122
would rather listen to the death
rattle of my own child than ever hear
2375
02:13:27,122 --> 02:13:28,642
'Through the Fire and Flames' again."
2376
02:13:31,532 --> 02:13:33,512
That person doesn't have
any children, by the way.
2377
02:13:33,512 --> 02:13:38,292
They prob- they probably remember that
that was not a good, good thing to do.
2378
02:13:39,604 --> 02:13:41,644
Cliff: I nevertheless don't
disagree with the sentiment.
2379
02:13:42,952 --> 02:13:46,832
Kyle: Not how I would've said it, but,
uh, I get where you're coming from, man.
2380
02:13:47,468 --> 02:13:49,848
Cliff: Swinging back into a
co- uh, more categories you'll
2381
02:13:49,848 --> 02:13:51,618
be m- happier with, I think.
2382
02:13:51,628 --> 02:13:54,268
For-- I, I just kinda called
this intensity or otherwise,
2383
02:13:54,268 --> 02:13:57,198
like, commitment to the sort of
musical bit that's happening here.
2384
02:13:57,518 --> 02:14:00,188
There's a whole bunch of stuff that's
gonna happen all here together, but the
2385
02:14:00,188 --> 02:14:02,458
band The Ocean did things like this.
2386
02:14:03,488 --> 02:14:07,028
Uh, you already mentioned it,
but "Crack the Sky" by Mastodon.
2387
02:14:07,138 --> 02:14:11,068
It-- like, if I had to pair another record
with "Colors" ever, it would be "Crack
2388
02:14:11,068 --> 02:14:13,848
the Sky." It is, it is a compliment.
2389
02:14:14,358 --> 02:14:19,398
other bands that had different amounts
of longevity but sort of differently
2390
02:14:19,398 --> 02:14:20,898
commit to the intensity of the music.
2391
02:14:21,188 --> 02:14:25,018
Rolo Tomassi is a band that's still taking
off and doing really well in this sense.
2392
02:14:25,018 --> 02:14:25,398
They sound
2393
02:14:25,426 --> 02:14:25,836
Kyle: Yeah.
2394
02:14:26,668 --> 02:14:27,108
Cliff: but
2395
02:14:27,186 --> 02:14:28,076
Kyle: really matured.
2396
02:14:28,298 --> 02:14:30,178
Cliff: yeah, I, I love their stuff.
2397
02:14:30,711 --> 02:14:35,031
A couple of bands that popped up
faster or more temporarily for a while.
2398
02:14:35,401 --> 02:14:37,971
Destrage was a band
that put out a couple of
2399
02:14:37,971 --> 02:14:39,861
records that touched on this.
2400
02:14:39,921 --> 02:14:40,291
Yeah.
2401
02:14:41,381 --> 02:14:43,011
Um, they g- they got kinda close.
2402
02:14:43,041 --> 02:14:43,881
It was interesting.
2403
02:14:44,171 --> 02:14:50,508
Similar to that Cloudkicker, especially
the like, original instrumental kind
2404
02:14:50,508 --> 02:14:54,268
of metal adjacent records were pretty
similar to what's happening here.
2405
02:14:54,638 --> 02:14:57,958
And then also another band I've tried
to bury in references before, but
2406
02:14:58,248 --> 02:15:02,768
Buried Alive wrote a concept record
called "Chronoclast," which was just a
2407
02:15:02,768 --> 02:15:04,708
black metal record about the nature of
2408
02:15:04,832 --> 02:15:07,402
Kyle: Wait, Buried Alive or Buried Inside?
2409
02:15:07,670 --> 02:15:08,080
Cliff: Thank you.
2410
02:15:08,080 --> 02:15:08,970
Buried Inside.
2411
02:15:09,110 --> 02:15:09,530
Yes.
2412
02:15:09,750 --> 02:15:13,590
Buried Alive is the band I mentioned
earlier with the colorful guitars.
2413
02:15:14,050 --> 02:15:14,420
Yes.
2414
02:15:14,480 --> 02:15:17,710
Buried Inside is the band that
didn't exist for long enough.
2415
02:15:18,960 --> 02:15:19,500
Yes.
2416
02:15:19,970 --> 02:15:24,100
Uh, and then… So this was the
band I was saying that's probably
2417
02:15:24,100 --> 02:15:25,200
the closest to jazz metal.
2418
02:15:25,200 --> 02:15:31,000
They do like Ethel Duath and especially
the … Yeah, it's never a cool way to say
2419
02:15:31,000 --> 02:15:31,140
it.
2420
02:15:31,390 --> 02:15:32,950
Uh, yeah.
2421
02:15:33,060 --> 02:15:36,520
Um, but especially uh, A Painter's
Palette, I think it was called, was
2422
02:15:36,520 --> 02:15:39,310
the one back in the day that was
really adjacent to all this stuff.
2423
02:15:39,310 --> 02:15:44,220
But it also reminded me of like
one-off type bands that did cool
2424
02:15:44,230 --> 02:15:49,370
stuff in the MySpace to, like
MySpace to Facebook transition era.
2425
02:15:49,790 --> 02:15:54,570
So Ethel Duath re- reminded me of it,
yes, but, uh, Blueprint Car Crash was
2426
02:15:54,570 --> 02:15:58,490
one that only put out one EP that had
this weird like math rock thing to it.
2427
02:15:58,873 --> 02:16:02,433
Another one that was actually produced
by Jamie King, the producer of this
2428
02:16:02,433 --> 02:16:05,103
record, "Nocturne" by The Human Abstract
2429
02:16:05,279 --> 02:16:07,249
Kyle: Oh, Human Abstract.
2430
02:16:07,791 --> 02:16:10,961
Cliff: They were another band who sort of
walked up to what Between the Buried and
2431
02:16:10,961 --> 02:16:15,591
Me was doing, but, but weren't able to,
you know, necessarily carry it for long.
2432
02:16:15,951 --> 02:16:18,891
Uh, and then I even mentioned because
they came to mind in that context, uh,
2433
02:16:18,911 --> 02:16:24,561
Red Sparowes, like a semi super group
of like Isis and Neurosis related people
2434
02:16:24,791 --> 02:16:24,929
who
2435
02:16:24,929 --> 02:16:25,269
Kyle: yeah
2436
02:16:25,451 --> 02:16:26,841
Cliff: post-rock and things like that.
2437
02:16:27,939 --> 02:16:30,269
Kyle: They were the best of the,
they were the best of the bunch, man.
2438
02:16:30,269 --> 02:16:31,739
Those Red Sparowes records.
2439
02:16:32,099 --> 02:16:34,709
Uh, I'm thinking of two.
2440
02:16:35,346 --> 02:16:39,626
"The Fear Excruciating," and then the,
2441
02:16:40,386 --> 02:16:43,226
The like the 2006 one
and then the 2010 one.
2442
02:16:43,816 --> 02:16:46,311
Yeah, they were, they were great
2443
02:16:48,304 --> 02:16:50,784
Cliff: honestly, and I, and I feel like,
you know, I wrote a couple other ones
2444
02:16:50,804 --> 02:16:54,574
down that are more like, uh, if you
super love prog, you should probably
2445
02:16:54,574 --> 02:16:58,254
make sure you've listened to Rush and
Yes and f**king Porcupine Tree and stuff,
2446
02:16:58,594 --> 02:16:59,894
'cause you can work your way up to this.
2447
02:17:00,104 --> 02:17:03,844
But honestly, to me, in this context,
and especially this deep in the episode,
2448
02:17:04,064 --> 02:17:05,464
that feels like the most obvious thing.
2449
02:17:05,604 --> 02:17:08,434
If you're gonna like prog, you probably
already know this about yourself
2450
02:17:08,444 --> 02:17:10,624
already, uh, and have walked that path.
2451
02:17:11,524 --> 02:17:14,214
I kinda doubt this would be
the front door to any of that.
2452
02:17:14,474 --> 02:17:18,314
I'm much more interested into it,
or in it becoming a path to a lot
2453
02:17:18,314 --> 02:17:19,394
of the other things we mentioned.
2454
02:17:19,880 --> 02:17:20,190
Kyle: Yeah.
2455
02:17:20,713 --> 02:17:22,863
so I do have a couple of bumper ones then.
2456
02:17:23,367 --> 02:17:28,277
I would say there's a handful in the
context of, wow, I can't believe all this
2457
02:17:28,277 --> 02:17:33,627
stuff was happening right at the same
time and sort of maybe influen- you know,
2458
02:17:33,627 --> 02:17:37,527
like they were aware of each other, if not
going so far as influencing each other.
2459
02:17:37,867 --> 02:17:43,387
But just in the like 2005, 2006
moment of really taking big swings,
2460
02:17:43,697 --> 02:17:46,777
there was a record we talk about
all the time in Francis the Mute.
2461
02:17:46,957 --> 02:17:51,657
Like "De-Loused" was a seminal record for,
it was a band's band record from the a-
2462
02:17:51,657 --> 02:17:53,437
you know, mostly the At the Drive-In guys.
2463
02:17:53,437 --> 02:17:58,402
But then Francis the Mute was like this
big freaky prog thing that it still
2464
02:17:58,402 --> 02:18:02,979
blows my mind that it broke through
in the mid 2000s and the height of the
2465
02:18:02,989 --> 02:18:05,919
OC puka shell necklace bro culture.
2466
02:18:05,939 --> 02:18:06,489
You know what I mean?
2467
02:18:07,057 --> 02:18:10,374
We talked about Fear Before the
record around that time that they
2468
02:18:10,374 --> 02:18:13,984
said they were playing in the van
a lot was "The Always Open Mouth".
2469
02:18:14,784 --> 02:18:18,944
A band that I'm pretty sure you put
me onto, but I know we both like,
2470
02:18:19,134 --> 02:18:21,074
Intronaut, the first Intronaut
2471
02:18:21,577 --> 02:18:22,437
Cliff: Hell yeah
2472
02:18:22,554 --> 02:18:26,474
Kyle: LP, "Void." Uh, they put
out the EP "Null," uh, but the
2473
02:18:26,514 --> 02:18:30,034
LP was "Void," and they've done a
bunch of great stuff since then.
2474
02:18:30,424 --> 02:18:35,674
But I remember us both, Intronaut and
Into the Moat were two records where
2475
02:18:35,674 --> 02:18:40,004
we were like, "This is incredible."
And it was just sort of a moment
2476
02:18:40,074 --> 02:18:45,214
and, like, I don't think In the, Into
the Moat has done stuff necessarily
2477
02:18:45,214 --> 02:18:47,014
like Intronaut has kept on plugging.
2478
02:18:47,144 --> 02:18:48,304
Cliff: Internauts got a lot of great
2479
02:18:48,374 --> 02:18:50,244
Kyle: They got a lot of great
records, and, and their best
2480
02:18:50,244 --> 02:18:52,634
stuff is their newer stuff for me.
2481
02:18:53,125 --> 02:18:55,855
But "Void" was 2006.
2482
02:18:56,823 --> 02:18:59,873
I can't believe we haven't talked
about Meshuggah more than we did.
2483
02:19:00,879 --> 02:19:04,209
but, like, you could pick any, you
could point at any number of Meshuggah
2484
02:19:04,209 --> 02:19:08,969
records and, and make an apt comparison
in terms of the… I mean, that's
2485
02:19:08,979 --> 02:19:11,889
sort of the thesis of the whole
Meshuggah episode is, like, pushing
2486
02:19:11,889 --> 02:19:16,829
the physical and mental limits of
what's possible with, uh, what we can
2487
02:19:16,829 --> 02:19:18,969
pull down from musical understanding.
2488
02:19:19,547 --> 02:19:24,957
But I specifically think of "Catch 33"
'cause it was 2005, and they made a
2489
02:19:24,957 --> 02:19:29,657
record like, that they intended for it
to be physically impossible to write
2490
02:19:29,657 --> 02:19:31,197
and play, and then they learned it.
2491
02:19:31,847 --> 02:19:34,347
And that feels very in
the spirit of BT BAM.
2492
02:19:34,427 --> 02:19:39,027
It, it's just like, it's a very, that's
a bruising record to get through.
2493
02:19:39,564 --> 02:19:44,075
You would probably say "I," the 21-minute
one-song EP that came immediately
2494
02:19:44,075 --> 02:19:47,975
before that, that I think is still,
like, a favorite Meshuggah of yours.
2495
02:19:47,975 --> 02:19:49,755
But "Catch 33" is it for me.
2496
02:19:50,835 --> 02:19:53,915
And then you mentioned "Crack the Skye,"
but I would say "Blood Mountain" 'cause
2497
02:19:53,915 --> 02:19:56,265
that's like a, that's a ferocious record.
2498
02:19:56,285 --> 02:20:02,145
That was a major label debut for them,
and they just went absolutely balls out.
2499
02:20:02,829 --> 02:20:06,539
So it's got the drop in intensity
of "Alaska," but it's got some of
2500
02:20:06,539 --> 02:20:09,779
the, like, weirdness of "Colors."
2501
02:20:10,569 --> 02:20:12,219
They get kinda freaky in some parts.
2502
02:20:13,204 --> 02:20:16,924
So I, I would encapsulate all
those as, like, a ri- happening
2503
02:20:16,924 --> 02:20:18,544
at the same time moment.
2504
02:20:19,184 --> 02:20:24,524
And if you don't understand why Cliff and
my brains are the way that they are, it's
2505
02:20:24,524 --> 02:20:28,634
because our frontal cortexes were forming
around the shape of records like this
2506
02:20:28,912 --> 02:20:29,282
Cliff: Yep
2507
02:20:29,464 --> 02:20:30,864
Kyle: when we were 18 years old.
2508
02:20:31,920 --> 02:20:35,230
Cliff: They, they tell you not to
take acid when your frontal lobe
2509
02:20:35,230 --> 02:20:38,630
is still forming, but they don't
tell you not to listen to Colors.
2510
02:20:38,640 --> 02:20:43,280
Kyle: To Francis the mute and colors,
yeah, on repeat over and over and
2511
02:20:43,280 --> 02:20:44,620
over again, morning, noon, and night.
2512
02:20:45,400 --> 02:20:47,710
We're fine-ish now.
2513
02:20:48,432 --> 02:20:55,452
Then there's like two to however many
records from "The Anatomy Of," like
2514
02:20:55,452 --> 02:20:59,052
if you straight up look at their list
of here are things we wanna point
2515
02:20:59,052 --> 02:21:00,802
you back to from their covers album.
2516
02:21:01,252 --> 02:21:05,202
Two underappreciated-- I mean, like
they do "And Justice for All" on there.
2517
02:21:05,202 --> 02:21:06,422
They do Pantera.
2518
02:21:06,472 --> 02:21:10,162
They do Earth Crisis, which is-- They
do Earth Crisis into an acoustic Blind
2519
02:21:10,172 --> 02:21:16,932
Melon song, which is like that is the
chef's kiss description of what you
2520
02:21:16,932 --> 02:21:19,392
get from the BTBaM experience to me.
2521
02:21:20,732 --> 02:21:24,142
But the two that I think are like
underappreciated dimensions of
2522
02:21:24,142 --> 02:21:30,311
what make them great creators
are, Angel Dust" by Faith No More.
2523
02:21:30,321 --> 02:21:35,641
And I'm not personally like a huge
Mike Patton band fan or appreciator.
2524
02:21:35,881 --> 02:21:38,791
I, I just like can't get
my head around most of it.
2525
02:21:39,061 --> 02:21:43,211
I did just see Tomahawk with
the Melvins and that was sick.
2526
02:21:43,861 --> 02:21:46,981
Um, still not 100% my thing,
but I was like, "Okay, I get it.
2527
02:21:46,991 --> 02:21:50,781
I respect this." So "Angel Dust"
by Faith No More, they cover
2528
02:21:50,781 --> 02:21:55,841
"Malpractice" on "The Anatomy Of," and
then "Siamese Dream" by The Smashing
2529
02:21:55,841 --> 02:21:56,601
Pumpkins.
2530
02:21:56,679 --> 02:21:57,069
Cliff: sure
2531
02:21:57,601 --> 02:22:02,701
Kyle: You're not gonna catch me defending
William Corgan the person, but great
2532
02:22:02,701 --> 02:22:05,141
guitar record, incredible songs on that.
2533
02:22:05,271 --> 02:22:07,701
They cover "Geek USA" on that record.
2534
02:22:08,261 --> 02:22:13,211
But there's like a, there's
like a yearny component.
2535
02:22:13,231 --> 02:22:14,921
It's like yearning grunge.
2536
02:22:14,951 --> 02:22:18,491
There's a different emotional dimension
to Smashing Pumpkins than any of their
2537
02:22:18,491 --> 02:22:25,011
peer bands that kind of connects to
the like Tears for Fears sort of,
2538
02:22:25,021 --> 02:22:31,137
sort of melancholy, h- like no pun
intended, aspect of that, that they
2539
02:22:31,137 --> 02:22:33,477
draw out really well in guitar music.
2540
02:22:33,477 --> 02:22:36,687
So I would chalk a lot of
that up, I would say, to Tommy
2541
02:22:36,687 --> 02:22:39,223
Rogers maybe some Dan Briggs.
2542
02:22:39,233 --> 02:22:41,933
You know, they all bring different
vocabularies to the band, but there's
2543
02:22:41,933 --> 02:22:47,910
like a… There's that emotional
dimension that comes from rock songs.
2544
02:22:48,460 --> 02:22:50,480
So Faith, Faith No More
and Smashing Pumpkins.
2545
02:22:51,370 --> 02:22:54,640
And then there's like the
classic rock and jazz stuff.
2546
02:22:55,885 --> 02:23:01,143
It's, too 101 to not bear saying out
loud that, like, if you love Colors,
2547
02:23:01,163 --> 02:23:03,663
you should listen to "Dark Side of the
2548
02:23:03,663 --> 02:23:04,163
Moon."
2549
02:23:04,507 --> 02:23:04,837
Cliff: yeah
2550
02:23:05,129 --> 02:23:10,468
Kyle: There's a great anecdote also
from Dan Briggs where he said in that
2551
02:23:10,468 --> 02:23:13,129
same essay: "This is probably a good
time to mention that I was wildly
2552
02:23:13,129 --> 02:23:16,038
excited to finally be part of writing
a concept album, even though I knew
2553
02:23:16,048 --> 02:23:17,359
lyrically it wouldn't be connected.
2554
02:23:17,698 --> 02:23:20,448
Of course, we were all expired--
inspired by 'Dark Side of the Moon,'
2555
02:23:20,448 --> 02:23:23,628
but in high school, three of my favorite
albums were Cursive's 'Ugly Organ,'
2556
02:23:23,948 --> 02:23:27,238
Flaming Lips' 'Yoshimi Battles the Pink
Robots,' and Dream Theater's 'Scenes
2557
02:23:27,248 --> 02:23:29,919
From a Memory.' So I'd been locked
in and ready to do this for years.
2558
02:23:29,919 --> 02:23:31,158
I just never had the opportunity.
2559
02:23:31,518 --> 02:23:33,088
It's funny mentioning 'Dark Side' though.
2560
02:23:33,169 --> 02:23:35,958
Tony, the head of Victory Records,
initially said he didn't like our
2561
02:23:35,958 --> 02:23:39,088
cover 'cause it was too similar
to Pink Floyd's album cover 'cause
2562
02:23:39,088 --> 02:23:40,428
it had black and rainbow colors.
2563
02:23:40,798 --> 02:23:43,719
But later, when he flew us up to the
office before the album was released
2564
02:23:43,728 --> 02:23:46,428
to do a series of meetings with every
branch at the label, he'd tell us
2565
02:23:46,439 --> 02:23:49,608
that we were going to be the Pink
Floyd of metal, and this was going to
2566
02:23:49,608 --> 02:23:51,158
be our 'Dark Side' or some bulls**t.
2567
02:23:51,378 --> 02:23:53,889
He was the king of blowing
smoke up your ass."
2568
02:23:56,027 --> 02:24:00,357
Having said all that, they do cover
"Us and Them" on "The Anatomy Of," and
2569
02:24:00,967 --> 02:24:05,377
like it just gets no better than,
than "Dark Side of the Moon." As
2570
02:24:05,377 --> 02:24:10,457
much as I wanna destroy the part
of myself that says a boomer thing
2571
02:24:10,467 --> 02:24:12,727
out loud like that, you know?
2572
02:24:12,957 --> 02:24:17,147
Like you'll-- When I
start saying like, "Sgt.
2573
02:24:17,157 --> 02:24:20,297
Pepper's is the best album ever," then
it's time to wrap this podcast up,
2574
02:24:20,307 --> 02:24:26,024
but I can at least be an apologist for
"Dark Side." And then th-three others.
2575
02:24:26,248 --> 02:24:30,778
One is King Crimson, specifically "Red."
Like you mentioned a bunch of prog stuff,
2576
02:24:30,788 --> 02:24:37,178
but I, I think King Crimson definitely,
and "Red" feels the most like between
2577
02:24:37,178 --> 02:24:38,858
the Buried and me of all of them.
2578
02:24:39,858 --> 02:24:43,528
I also like never got into this
record, but I kept thinking about
2579
02:24:43,538 --> 02:24:48,328
how when you were like 16 or 17,
you were recommending "The Lamb
2580
02:24:48,328 --> 02:24:51,138
Lies Down on Broadway" t-to people.
2581
02:24:51,428 --> 02:24:52,518
Cliff: F**king Genesis Records.
2582
02:24:52,668 --> 02:24:57,398
Kyle: Like you, you were into
really heady stuff at, at way too
2583
02:24:57,398 --> 02:25:01,328
young an age, and this was like
pre, pre-psychedelics or anything.
2584
02:25:01,738 --> 02:25:03,598
So I gotta give you your kudos for that.
2585
02:25:04,208 --> 02:25:07,878
The second one would be mentioned
already, Billy Cobham's "Spectrum"
2586
02:25:08,418 --> 02:25:11,958
lights me up in exactly the
same way that this record does.
2587
02:25:12,501 --> 02:25:17,121
And then the, the third I would just
like broadly point at Allan Holdsworth
2588
02:25:17,901 --> 02:25:22,811
as an influence of theirs, guitarist from
The Soft Machine, and went on to have
2589
02:25:22,831 --> 02:25:24,821
like-- You talked about crazy guitarists.
2590
02:25:24,821 --> 02:25:30,221
He's a crazy guitarist who has… I
don't wanna compare him to Lou Reed,
2591
02:25:30,221 --> 02:25:34,251
but has like taken on that breadth
of stuff that he has done, and he's
2592
02:25:34,251 --> 02:25:35,781
had lots of different collaborators.
2593
02:25:36,291 --> 02:25:41,001
Like he was on a great record with
Jean-Luc Ponty in the '70s, but
2594
02:25:41,001 --> 02:25:45,511
there's one record specifically
that like the sampling hip-hop
2595
02:25:45,551 --> 02:25:48,631
whatever guy in me is really into.
2596
02:25:49,161 --> 02:25:52,231
Uh, the drummer Tony Williams put
together a band called the Tony
2597
02:25:52,231 --> 02:25:55,871
Williams Lifetime, and they put out
a record in 1975 called "Believe It"
2598
02:25:56,541 --> 02:25:59,103
that Allan Holdsworth plays guitar on.
2599
02:25:59,387 --> 02:26:05,147
So you can do solo Holdsworth,
like "Metal Fatigue" from '85.
2600
02:26:05,157 --> 02:26:08,637
He had a record in the late '90s
or early 2000s that was like a
2601
02:26:08,707 --> 02:26:10,967
straight-ahead jazz standards record.
2602
02:26:11,422 --> 02:26:14,910
But then there's stuff like this Tony
Williams record where he's playing with
2603
02:26:15,230 --> 02:26:20,210
like an all-time great drummer and sort
of arguably playing circles around him.
2604
02:26:20,805 --> 02:26:25,735
But it's always nice to look for things
that evoke the sensation that you
2605
02:26:25,765 --> 02:26:30,835
mentioned a number of times, Cliff, where
it's like people who are individually very
2606
02:26:30,835 --> 02:26:38,195
good doing the one plus one equals three
and somehow becoming even better together
2607
02:26:38,239 --> 02:26:41,337
than they could in their own thing,
'cause they're all challenging each other.
2608
02:26:42,118 --> 02:26:43,048
Music can be this
2609
02:26:44,395 --> 02:26:47,325
Cliff: That makes me throw in one
extra of them crooked vultures
2610
02:26:48,347 --> 02:26:49,247
Kyle: Oh, God.
2611
02:26:50,897 --> 02:26:51,897
What a moment that was.
2612
02:26:52,107 --> 02:26:52,437
Cliff: Yep.
2613
02:26:52,527 --> 02:26:55,447
But another pretty good example
of just, "Oh, we're gonna be good
2614
02:26:55,447 --> 02:26:57,197
at this. Just hold on." Yeah.
2615
02:26:58,427 --> 02:26:59,467
Man, I loved all of that.
2616
02:26:59,547 --> 02:27:04,697
Uh, ultimately, f- you know,
uh, thank you everybody for
2617
02:27:04,697 --> 02:27:06,827
this tour inside of my noggin.
2618
02:27:07,417 --> 02:27:12,287
In general though, if e- even if
you're having a sort of like "Jesus
2619
02:27:12,287 --> 02:27:16,977
Christ, why is he like this? Why-- I've
listened to so much about this now."
2620
02:27:17,027 --> 02:27:18,897
Listen man, just that's fine.
2621
02:27:19,067 --> 02:27:23,907
Even if this doesn't connect with you as
is, you got something like this, right?
2622
02:27:24,897 --> 02:27:26,657
Like you got something like this, right?
2623
02:27:27,337 --> 02:27:27,987
Don't you?
2624
02:27:28,327 --> 02:27:31,227
And if you don't, try to
go find it probably now.
2625
02:27:31,821 --> 02:27:35,211
If you got something like this, especially
that hit you at an important moment
2626
02:27:35,211 --> 02:27:40,831
in time and it means something to you,
you could at minimum honor the spirit
2627
02:27:40,851 --> 02:27:43,921
of this record, even if you're not
interested in it, by going and finding
2628
02:27:43,921 --> 02:27:47,541
your version of whatever this is and
sitting down and shutting your mouth
2629
02:27:47,801 --> 02:27:52,961
and listening to it and feeling all the
things you used to feel, remembering
2630
02:27:52,961 --> 02:27:57,331
who you used to be, and thinking about
who you'd like to be tomorrow, and
2631
02:27:57,331 --> 02:28:02,971
thinking about, as they say so aptly,
this is all you have when we die.
2632
02:28:03,131 --> 02:28:04,091
Like this is it.
2633
02:28:04,609 --> 02:28:08,969
for me, a significant portion of my
existence on planet Earth is tied
2634
02:28:08,969 --> 02:28:11,411
up in this record and in this band.
2635
02:28:11,501 --> 02:28:15,281
it's meaningful to me and it lights
me up in a great way that has paid
2636
02:28:15,281 --> 02:28:17,001
off for, you know, decades now.
2637
02:28:17,361 --> 02:28:22,741
And so I, again, even more so than
like I want you to love this record,
2638
02:28:22,741 --> 02:28:25,031
which I do, please give it a try.
2639
02:28:25,061 --> 02:28:30,531
If I have any trust of yours, please
try at least once and check this
2640
02:28:30,531 --> 02:28:32,071
thing out and see what lights you up.
2641
02:28:32,351 --> 02:28:36,811
But if not, get that other thing
that you know lights you up
2642
02:28:37,063 --> 02:28:38,573
Kyle: I you to love something
2643
02:28:38,831 --> 02:28:39,081
Cliff: Yeah.
2644
02:28:39,293 --> 02:28:39,943
Kyle: this record.
2645
02:28:40,181 --> 02:28:40,801
Cliff: Yes.
2646
02:28:41,341 --> 02:28:46,541
And then sit and feel and be thankful
that every now and then, no matter what
2647
02:28:46,551 --> 02:28:52,681
happens, something like this exists in our
life and we have some form of art that we
2648
02:28:52,681 --> 02:28:54,651
can not only come back to but that like…
2649
02:28:55,411 --> 02:28:55,751
I don't know.
2650
02:28:55,891 --> 02:28:58,981
I, I find this to be a beautiful thing
that something would be this meaningful to
2651
02:28:58,981 --> 02:29:04,251
me, and it's just five dudes, one of whom
I've been on like a Zoom call with before.
2652
02:29:04,891 --> 02:29:07,691
Just like there have been moments
where like I really wanted to have
2653
02:29:07,691 --> 02:29:13,661
like a cosmic moment with that dude,
just like, "Do you know how important
2654
02:29:13,691 --> 02:29:16,321
what you did was to me as a person?"
2655
02:29:16,771 --> 02:29:18,591
And it's like that would be way too much.
2656
02:29:19,281 --> 02:29:21,261
Uh, and so o- obviously I didn't.
2657
02:29:21,261 --> 02:29:24,761
But like to know that that's real and
that people are on the other side of
2658
02:29:24,761 --> 02:29:26,371
this going, "Music can be like this.
2659
02:29:26,391 --> 02:29:30,621
Do you wanna live your life as if music
can be like this?" And I'm going, "Yes.
2660
02:29:30,871 --> 02:29:36,811
Fucking White Walls all day." Like if
you can find something that matches this
2661
02:29:37,441 --> 02:29:41,931
with anything that you're feeling or
experiencing, I really encourage you to
2662
02:29:41,931 --> 02:29:45,941
go back to it, uh, and draw from that
well again as many times as you can.
2663
02:29:49,134 --> 02:29:53,354
Kyle: that to create that sort
of thing that exists at all
2664
02:29:53,394 --> 02:29:55,444
and then to be found by people.
2665
02:29:55,454 --> 02:30:00,454
That's a level of resonance
that seems almost mythological,
2666
02:30:00,474 --> 02:30:01,924
but, but they've done it.
2667
02:30:02,304 --> 02:30:05,014
Cliff: I will, unless you want me to
call out anything particular here,
2668
02:30:05,014 --> 02:30:06,514
you're ob- obviously welcome to.
2669
02:30:06,774 --> 02:30:12,304
The only other thing I'll mention is this
was an especially self-referential period
2670
02:30:12,414 --> 02:30:14,814
in their lives, uh, especially lyrically.
2671
02:30:15,154 --> 02:30:22,104
And so in this song, which is about
them being who they're going to be,
2672
02:30:22,434 --> 02:30:26,534
they do some it's not even a veiled
reference, it's just a direct reference.
2673
02:30:26,864 --> 02:30:30,444
There's a line that says, "They chose
Camilla and we stood by her the entire
2674
02:30:30,444 --> 02:30:35,944
time." Like, this is a reference
to a song off "Silent Circus" that
2675
02:30:35,944 --> 02:30:39,754
they're ef- they're effectively
saying, "We already don't like that
2676
02:30:39,754 --> 02:30:42,814
song very much, but we play it for you
because we f**king know you like it."
2677
02:30:43,036 --> 02:30:43,386
Kyle: Mm-hmm.
2678
02:30:43,861 --> 02:30:46,481
Cliff: to bring that in here is
cool and, like, I'm not gonna
2679
02:30:46,491 --> 02:30:48,301
overthink it either in this moment.
2680
02:30:48,321 --> 02:30:52,131
I'm sure when the lyrics were written,
it's not an overly serious thing.
2681
02:30:52,861 --> 02:30:57,069
But again, that reinforces
the sorta ethos of this band.
2682
02:30:57,456 --> 02:31:00,656
Mm, okay, we did have that
cool song that you liked.
2683
02:31:00,826 --> 02:31:03,336
What if, though, we did better?
2684
02:31:03,716 --> 02:31:05,726
We actually want you to
listen to this instead.
2685
02:31:05,946 --> 02:31:08,996
Like, we actually think that's not as good
as this thing over here and we need you
2686
02:31:08,996 --> 02:31:12,436
to hear this, and we don't wanna do that,
but we appreciate you for liking it."
2687
02:31:12,816 --> 02:31:14,766
That's the kinda s**t I'm into, okay?
2688
02:31:14,786 --> 02:31:16,186
There were a lot of bands at this time,
2689
02:31:16,374 --> 02:31:18,544
Kyle: Thinking Man's 311 down.
2690
02:31:19,946 --> 02:31:24,228
Cliff: And, uh, to take a, a bit of
a shot for a band that I do honestly
2691
02:31:24,228 --> 02:31:25,838
love and loved a lot during this time.
2692
02:31:26,128 --> 02:31:29,168
He Is Legend complained a lot
at this time about playing "I Am
2693
02:31:29,168 --> 02:31:33,898
Hollywood," which is a two minute and
41 second song that everyone loves
2694
02:31:33,898 --> 02:31:35,758
them for and they hated playing it.
2695
02:31:36,202 --> 02:31:38,902
Kyle: They blew, They blew,
up their career over it,
2696
02:31:39,372 --> 02:31:41,072
like hon- let's be honest.
2697
02:31:41,372 --> 02:31:43,462
And now and now what?
2698
02:31:43,472 --> 02:31:47,512
Have done two years straight of touring
on that record, and it's a bit like, all
2699
02:31:47,772 --> 02:31:48,242
Cliff: Yeah.
2700
02:31:48,272 --> 02:31:48,662
Kyle: you.
2701
02:31:48,992 --> 02:31:49,522
Cliff: Yes.
2702
02:31:50,002 --> 02:31:52,682
Kyle: I can say that as maybe
the person who's seen more "He
2703
02:31:52,682 --> 02:31:54,602
Is Legend" shows than any living
2704
02:31:54,602 --> 02:31:58,382
person, and the person who has
been the most supportive of this
2705
02:31:58,402 --> 02:32:02,522
band, like the, the most vocal
fan of that band maybe ever.
2706
02:32:03,832 --> 02:32:07,732
and I'm still excited for whatever they
do next and, and think they're incredible.
2707
02:32:07,752 --> 02:32:11,692
But I endured "The Slings & Arrows," so
I can say f**k you guys, that was stupid
2708
02:32:13,460 --> 02:32:18,120
Cliff: it was just not a fun
energy when you like the song.
2709
02:32:18,390 --> 02:32:23,040
So to come to this instead and it be a
little bit of a softer landing for like,
2710
02:32:23,170 --> 02:32:23,560
Kyle: Yeah.
2711
02:32:23,670 --> 02:32:25,720
Kind of the same thing
in a different font.
2712
02:32:25,950 --> 02:32:26,610
Cliff: yeah, Yeah,
2713
02:32:26,610 --> 02:32:27,270
exactly.
2714
02:32:27,830 --> 02:32:28,500
Exactly.
2715
02:32:28,880 --> 02:32:35,600
Kyle: I mean, the, the only other thing
that I would say about " White Walls,"
2716
02:32:35,750 --> 02:32:39,510
being in many piece-- pla- being in
many ways one of their masterpiece
2717
02:32:39,510 --> 02:32:46,800
songs is, um, Dan Briggs, the bassist,
wrote a thing for Metal Injection that's
2718
02:32:46,800 --> 02:32:51,620
like a, a luxurious artifact, not the
kind of thing that you get very often.
2719
02:32:51,980 --> 02:32:55,070
Sometimes you'll get things where
they'll tell you their headspace of
2720
02:32:55,070 --> 02:32:59,270
the record right after they've made
the record, you know, and they'll,
2721
02:32:59,280 --> 02:33:01,580
they'll get kinda in the weeds on stuff.
2722
02:33:02,210 --> 02:33:07,530
This is a th- an essay that Dan wrote
as they were preparing to go out on tour
2723
02:33:07,880 --> 02:33:09,730
for this record for the 10th anniversary.
2724
02:33:09,770 --> 02:33:13,000
So there's, like, the clarity
of what we were thinking when we
2725
02:33:13,000 --> 02:33:18,070
made it, plus the hindsight of
how much we've evolved since then.
2726
02:33:18,620 --> 02:33:21,560
And he wrote a good bit about "White
Walls." He wrote about how the
2727
02:33:21,560 --> 02:33:28,250
song ends on a G-sharp minor chord,
if I recall correctly, and then,
2728
02:33:28,350 --> 02:33:30,020
loops back around to it at the top.
2729
02:33:30,290 --> 02:33:36,800
He wrote about how the buildup into
the breakdown came from a section in
2730
02:33:36,940 --> 02:33:40,870
two minutes and 30 seconds of "Ants
in the Sky," and the key change is
2731
02:33:40,880 --> 02:33:42,520
also from the progression in "Ant."
2732
02:33:42,520 --> 02:33:45,610
So, like, the variation stuff
is on display between some
2733
02:33:45,610 --> 02:33:46,650
of their big epic things.
2734
02:33:47,110 --> 02:33:53,480
But the, the thing that I hadn't
really thought much about until he
2735
02:33:53,480 --> 02:33:58,200
wrote about it in this essay was,
like, once again, Blake Richardson
2736
02:33:58,830 --> 02:34:01,500
Blake the Steak appreciation post.
2737
02:34:02,140 --> 02:34:05,830
The last two-thirds of the
song from, like… or the last
2738
02:34:06,020 --> 02:34:11,060
third from nine minutes on is a
polyrhythm masterclass, and it is
2739
02:34:11,060 --> 02:34:14,030
a, it's a technical chops clinic.
2740
02:34:14,440 --> 02:34:18,490
Dan said, "Blake kind of works in
mysterious ways to this day. He can find
2741
02:34:18,490 --> 02:34:21,730
a way to take a riff that feels weird
or a chunk of a song, and either by
2742
02:34:21,750 --> 02:34:25,660
just deleting it or rearranging a few
pieces and writing transitions, he can
2743
02:34:25,660 --> 02:34:28,800
make it suddenly work perfectly, which
is a great asset to have when you're
2744
02:34:28,800 --> 02:34:30,480
putting such a long song together."
2745
02:34:31,130 --> 02:34:37,850
There are things that he's playing that,
like, even in the era of y- you know,
2746
02:34:37,850 --> 02:34:41,710
like, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater came out
and now kids can do tricks that were
2747
02:34:41,710 --> 02:34:46,370
previously thought of as physically
impossible You watch some of those guys
2748
02:34:46,370 --> 02:34:54,570
on TikTok now that can play like Slipknot
one-handed and whatever, and some of
2749
02:34:54,580 --> 02:34:59,680
these things may seem kind of passe, but
like really honing in on the drumming for
2750
02:34:59,680 --> 02:35:04,830
certain parts of this record, especially
the end of this last song, you're like, "I
2751
02:35:04,970 --> 02:35:08,840
cannot believe a human body can do that."
2752
02:35:08,970 --> 02:35:13,680
It does not make sense what
is happening rhythmically
2753
02:35:14,220 --> 02:35:14,840
at all.
2754
02:35:15,220 --> 02:35:16,100
It's so tight
2755
02:35:16,480 --> 02:35:16,700
Cliff: Yep.
2756
02:35:16,730 --> 02:35:22,040
If we wanna cherry-pick any bit, 12
minutes and 10 seconds is so fast.
2757
02:35:22,690 --> 02:35:23,930
It's so fast.
2758
02:35:25,170 --> 02:35:26,850
And then they go right back
into something melodic.
2759
02:35:27,003 --> 02:35:30,263
I literally wrote just like after I
took a note of that, just like, "I
2760
02:35:30,263 --> 02:35:32,423
love these dudes." I just, I love this.
2761
02:35:33,853 --> 02:35:37,463
And then like Kyle said, we, we
end right back where we started on
2762
02:35:37,513 --> 02:35:41,983
a piano chord that goes right back
into the beginning, which is sick.
2763
02:35:42,363 --> 02:35:42,893
So
2764
02:35:43,467 --> 02:35:48,587
Kyle: It, to your point about Queen, ends
exactly like "Bohemian Rhapsody" with
2765
02:35:48,587 --> 02:35:54,217
just the little, the little ascending
notes, you know, which makes it feel
2766
02:35:54,597 --> 02:35:56,927
all, all the more epic in that way
2767
02:35:57,307 --> 02:35:57,977
Cliff: Absolutely.
2768
02:35:58,357 --> 02:35:58,657
Yeah.
2769
02:35:59,037 --> 02:36:06,667
This band has always felt to me like a
band who could perform at the scale of
2770
02:36:06,697 --> 02:36:09,377
like Live Aid '84 type stuff, right?
2771
02:36:09,587 --> 02:36:10,047
Just like
2772
02:36:10,271 --> 02:36:12,621
Kyle: lit- literally on top of a mountain
2773
02:36:12,621 --> 02:36:13,661
with a laser show.
2774
02:36:13,797 --> 02:36:14,407
Cliff: Yes.
2775
02:36:16,227 --> 02:36:21,147
And, I don't know whether it's bittersweet
or not that they never found a huge
2776
02:36:21,187 --> 02:36:26,257
audience to the extent that peers
like Gojira or somebody like that did.
2777
02:36:26,667 --> 02:36:30,027
Um, I don't know whether that's good or
bad, but I do know they've been touring
2778
02:36:30,027 --> 02:36:31,867
consistently for this entire time.
2779
02:36:32,077 --> 02:36:33,177
They seem to love music.
2780
02:36:33,177 --> 02:36:35,037
They continue to crank out awesome stuff
2781
02:36:35,422 --> 02:36:39,882
Kyle: Including their new record from
ear- earlier this year, last year?
2782
02:36:39,912 --> 02:36:41,022
When did "Blue Nowhere" come out?
2783
02:36:41,260 --> 02:36:42,560
Cliff: It should've been
late last year, yeah.
2784
02:36:43,126 --> 02:36:44,186
Kyle: So good.
2785
02:36:44,386 --> 02:36:46,306
Just, just re-listened to it.
2786
02:36:46,656 --> 02:36:51,376
Like, I'd put "God Terror" up there
with anything that they've ever done.
2787
02:36:52,036 --> 02:36:58,326
A great record, and still, uh, taking
risk is a weird phrase for this band,
2788
02:36:58,326 --> 02:37:00,736
where it's like what does that even mean?
2789
02:37:01,433 --> 02:37:06,157
still producing different sounds that, I
still have the capacity to be surprised
2790
02:37:06,157 --> 02:37:08,557
by the kinds of things they incorporate
2791
02:37:08,759 --> 02:37:09,199
Cliff: Totally.
2792
02:37:09,375 --> 02:37:11,123
To that note, calling out God Tear.
2793
02:37:11,333 --> 02:37:16,193
They released a live version of that from
Denver in 2025, and I was like, "Hey, oh,
2794
02:37:16,763 --> 02:37:18,823
I was there. You can hear me breathing."
2795
02:37:21,647 --> 02:37:22,257
Kyle: You can't.
2796
02:37:22,297 --> 02:37:25,957
It was very loud, but I appreciate it
2797
02:37:26,355 --> 02:37:32,512
Cliff: Yeah Do you want to point
me in a direction to quickly run
2798
02:37:32,512 --> 02:37:34,372
through some of where to go next?
2799
02:37:34,752 --> 02:37:36,252
Or should I rip it?
2800
02:37:36,392 --> 02:37:37,672
Or would you like to go
2801
02:37:37,884 --> 02:37:44,214
Kyle: I have such a long list that
I, I thought it, it might be helpful
2802
02:37:44,244 --> 02:37:48,944
if I actually specifically pointed
to just a handful of records,
2803
02:37:49,112 --> 02:37:49,742
Cliff: Yeah, sure
2804
02:37:49,994 --> 02:37:51,104
Kyle: actual records.
2805
02:37:51,144 --> 02:37:56,164
But I'd be m- I'd be much more
interested in we're speaking
2806
02:37:56,164 --> 02:37:57,224
your language on this thing.
2807
02:37:57,224 --> 02:37:59,104
I'd be much more interested in
what you have to say, and then
2808
02:37:59,104 --> 02:38:03,364
if I have any, like, big gaps to
fill in, I might, I might do that.
2809
02:38:03,564 --> 02:38:04,414
Cliff: Okay, let's do it.
2810
02:38:04,474 --> 02:38:07,884
I'm betting I'll have some crossover
with things you have in the
2811
02:38:08,230 --> 02:38:10,900
Kyle: I feel pretty safe assuming that.
2812
02:38:11,494 --> 02:38:12,854
Cliff: We know each other and have been
2813
02:38:13,120 --> 02:38:19,150
Kyle: We've been side by side at enough
shows of this exact kind of thing
2814
02:38:19,160 --> 02:38:21,320
that, like, I got a pretty good idea
2815
02:38:21,607 --> 02:38:24,867
Cliff: You know, sometimes theoretically
our wives ask us, "What do you guys talk
2816
02:38:24,877 --> 02:38:26,067
about at dinner?" This f**king, this.
2817
02:38:26,467 --> 02:38:26,847
This
2818
02:38:27,629 --> 02:38:28,609
Kyle: Where we're going, we don't
2819
02:38:28,767 --> 02:38:29,647
Cliff: is what we're about to play.
2820
02:38:29,647 --> 02:38:29,887
Yeah.
2821
02:38:30,109 --> 02:38:30,389
Kyle: Yeah.
2822
02:38:31,407 --> 02:38:33,977
Cliff: I order catfish and then we… Yes.
2823
02:38:34,555 --> 02:38:40,515
So one, first of all, delighted to
say this band has an extreme catalog.
2824
02:38:41,125 --> 02:38:42,655
There is a lot of music
2825
02:38:43,359 --> 02:38:43,739
Kyle: we're up
2826
02:38:43,845 --> 02:38:44,155
Cliff: to
2827
02:38:45,165 --> 02:38:46,495
Something like that, man.
2828
02:38:46,925 --> 02:38:51,685
Persistent, different, consistently great.
2829
02:38:51,845 --> 02:38:54,995
I don't love every record the same,
but they're all really, really good.
2830
02:38:55,039 --> 02:38:56,009
Kyle: But I respect them all.
2831
02:38:56,255 --> 02:38:56,835
Cliff: Yes.
2832
02:38:57,395 --> 02:39:02,745
For me, my favorite like run or collection
of the… Well, first let me mention,
2833
02:39:02,745 --> 02:39:06,785
like I mentioned earlier, they literally
made a sort of like sequel to this record
2834
02:39:06,785 --> 02:39:09,555
called "Colors II" and released in 2021.
2835
02:39:09,755 --> 02:39:10,505
It's very cool.
2836
02:39:10,655 --> 02:39:14,565
If you like this record, and especially
if you listen to it a few times to pick
2837
02:39:14,565 --> 02:39:17,605
up on some of the things we're talking
about, you will enjoy it because then
2838
02:39:17,605 --> 02:39:20,785
they do a meta version of that on a
totally different record entirely.
2839
02:39:21,545 --> 02:39:24,545
Just yeah you gotta
earn that level of nerd,
2840
02:39:24,641 --> 02:39:28,621
Kyle: But to be clear, it's
not like a nostalgia cash-in.
2841
02:39:29,081 --> 02:39:29,331
It's
2842
02:39:29,433 --> 02:39:30,103
Cliff: Different songs
2843
02:39:30,331 --> 02:39:32,061
Kyle: it's not the same thing.
2844
02:39:32,061 --> 02:39:36,741
But yeah, it's-- We were trying
to evoke the same intensity of
2845
02:39:36,741 --> 02:39:38,721
inspiration that we were feeling.
2846
02:39:38,731 --> 02:39:43,071
It was like we felt like we were at
another do or die moment, so let's really
2847
02:39:43,071 --> 02:39:49,387
go for it and like make our most intense,
most BT BAM record possible on this thing.
2848
02:39:49,477 --> 02:39:50,907
It was like a rallying cry.
2849
02:39:51,999 --> 02:39:56,679
Cliff: Yes, and you'll catch
references to the music itself from
2850
02:39:56,679 --> 02:39:58,449
"Colors," which is just a fun thing,
2851
02:39:58,625 --> 02:40:02,825
Kyle: Which is very cool to be able
to do that without tipping into
2852
02:40:03,355 --> 02:40:05,835
too many nods, too much callback,
2853
02:40:06,125 --> 02:40:07,735
all sort of thing.
2854
02:40:08,025 --> 02:40:08,285
Yeah.
2855
02:40:08,665 --> 02:40:10,355
Cliff: So that's pretty easy.
2856
02:40:10,785 --> 02:40:12,355
Again, I, I've loved a lot of it.
2857
02:40:12,365 --> 02:40:18,055
My favorite kind of run though is through
this one, through "Colors," they do
2858
02:40:18,055 --> 02:40:22,405
"The Great Misdirect," which is also
great, and then they hit "The Parallax"
2859
02:40:22,405 --> 02:40:28,735
and "The Parallax II." To me, in the we
are searching for progressive technical
2860
02:40:28,795 --> 02:40:34,365
prog something, when they were doing
that move, that was the apex of it.
2861
02:40:34,365 --> 02:40:40,555
"Parallax II" is one of the coolest
sounding metal records I'm aware of.
2862
02:40:40,925 --> 02:40:42,715
It's got hooks I'll never forget.
2863
02:40:43,205 --> 02:40:45,465
It's got parts like we talked about today.
2864
02:40:45,705 --> 02:40:47,365
It's, it's got everything mixed in.
2865
02:40:47,745 --> 02:40:51,095
Kyle: I mean, if there were
no "Ants of the Sky," "Telos"
2866
02:40:51,115 --> 02:40:53,715
would be my favorite BTBAM song.
2867
02:40:53,735 --> 02:40:57,955
The "Was I ever really alive" part
toward the end of that is like…
2868
02:40:58,345 --> 02:41:02,145
I had not listened to that record
when we saw them on that tour, and I
2869
02:41:02,145 --> 02:41:08,245
remember seeing that song being like,
"Damn, dude." It just blew me away.
2870
02:41:08,755 --> 02:41:08,845
Cliff: Yep.
2871
02:41:09,117 --> 02:41:11,457
So I'd point people directly to
that one, especially if you were
2872
02:41:11,507 --> 02:41:16,617
captured by the major key and kinda
anthemic moments that they'll do.
2873
02:41:16,667 --> 02:41:19,687
I, I just… It really feels
dialed in by that particular point.
2874
02:41:20,007 --> 02:41:20,907
And I mean, dude, that was 2012.
2875
02:41:20,907 --> 02:41:24,627
2012 was such a weird and
awesome year in general.
2876
02:41:24,977 --> 02:41:29,927
The, the Mayans left us on read and
everything went downhill after that.
2877
02:41:30,497 --> 02:41:30,867
Um,
2878
02:41:31,910 --> 02:41:34,340
Kyle: Oh, the apocalypse
already happened, Cliff.
2879
02:41:34,489 --> 02:41:34,929
Cliff: I know.
2880
02:41:35,350 --> 02:41:37,580
But you were one of the only people
I could tell at the time that I
2881
02:41:37,580 --> 02:41:40,200
was actually disappointed that the
thing didn't happen, 'cause I knew
2882
02:41:40,200 --> 02:41:41,590
what day it was supposed to happen.
2883
02:41:41,854 --> 02:41:43,064
Kyle: The green flash.
2884
02:41:44,064 --> 02:41:46,684
Yeah, the green flash was the
friends we made along the way
2885
02:41:47,150 --> 02:41:51,020
Cliff: So lots to love in
their discog- discography.
2886
02:41:51,830 --> 02:41:55,840
Going backwards is less recommended,
not 'cause it's bad, but because
2887
02:41:55,840 --> 02:41:58,120
they became a totally different
band like we were talking about
2888
02:41:58,120 --> 02:41:59,480
by the time "Alaska" came around.
2889
02:41:59,760 --> 02:42:01,030
"Silent Circus" is awesome.
2890
02:42:01,070 --> 02:42:02,190
"Alaska" is awesome.
2891
02:42:02,200 --> 02:42:03,070
I love both of those.
2892
02:42:03,100 --> 02:42:06,980
The self-titled is a little less,
especially if you're identifying with
2893
02:42:06,980 --> 02:42:08,150
a lot of the things on this record.
2894
02:42:08,150 --> 02:42:09,500
So, all good there.
2895
02:42:10,020 --> 02:42:16,060
Now I think I can point in some
generic directions that are inspired
2896
02:42:16,070 --> 02:42:19,570
by different aspects of what this band
is doing, because let me tell you,
2897
02:42:19,570 --> 02:42:23,050
Kyle hinted at, at this earlier, but
I gotta say, as somebody who likes
2898
02:42:23,070 --> 02:42:26,970
this band, I sure don't f**king like
any of the bands that are related to
2899
02:42:26,970 --> 02:42:29,000
them according to various algorithms.
2900
02:42:29,596 --> 02:42:31,006
I cannot e- explain it.
2901
02:42:31,096 --> 02:42:31,906
I don't know.
2902
02:42:32,166 --> 02:42:35,876
And like, and these are bands who
are, like, in Associated Press
2903
02:42:35,886 --> 02:42:40,136
in 2009 being like, "This band is
because of Between the Buried and Me."
2904
02:42:40,946 --> 02:42:45,226
And I'm like, "I… Okay, I don't hear
it, but okay, you did get an eight-string
2905
02:42:45,226 --> 02:42:50,226
guitar, and that is pretty cool to
see, but so pointing in a few different
2906
02:42:50,226 --> 02:42:53,696
directions, none of which are basically
this band sounds like this band.
2907
02:42:54,206 --> 02:42:59,916
One of them would be, uh, especially
if you like the sort of larger,
2908
02:42:59,926 --> 02:43:04,476
more… Like Kyle described it as epic
without being millennially cringe.
2909
02:43:04,876 --> 02:43:09,176
Opeth is where you wanna go if
you're sort of into metal darkness.
2910
02:43:09,196 --> 02:43:09,976
I like this.
2911
02:43:10,016 --> 02:43:11,246
I like some singing.
2912
02:43:11,596 --> 02:43:12,706
I like melody.
2913
02:43:13,156 --> 02:43:14,326
Opeth is pretty rad, man.
2914
02:43:14,626 --> 02:43:16,836
Gojira is not far behind in my book.
2915
02:43:16,916 --> 02:43:21,576
Both, across the seas cousins
of this type of music exactly.
2916
02:43:21,786 --> 02:43:24,826
I'm sure Opeth themselves were
an influence on Between the
2917
02:43:24,826 --> 02:43:25,706
Buried and Me to begin with.
2918
02:43:25,716 --> 02:43:29,930
But seeing Gojira at the Olympics,
uh, uh, when that happened was cool,
2919
02:43:29,930 --> 02:43:34,010
but all I could think about was
how much they probably owed that to
2920
02:43:34,010 --> 02:43:36,720
bands like Between the Buried and Me,
which they have more or less talked
2921
02:43:36,720 --> 02:43:37,980
about in the past, which is cool.
2922
02:43:38,440 --> 02:43:44,320
in another sort of direction of if you
can get down with the metal aspect of it
2923
02:43:44,320 --> 02:43:49,010
and maybe turn the knob up to where it
doesn't go back to as much of the sort
2924
02:43:49,010 --> 02:43:53,120
of melodic major key stuff, a band me and
Kyle have seen a lot who is, like, taking
2925
02:43:53,120 --> 02:43:55,000
over the world now, Blood Incantation
2926
02:43:55,390 --> 02:43:56,030
is
2927
02:43:56,172 --> 02:43:56,742
Kyle: yeah
2928
02:43:56,773 --> 02:43:59,533
Cliff: they are the we take
music seriously, don't you
2929
02:43:59,533 --> 02:44:02,013
love us for it band of the day.
2930
02:44:02,613 --> 02:44:03,633
S- so
2931
02:44:03,891 --> 02:44:09,951
Kyle: Yeah, that, that Blood Incantation
set at Decibel filled me… I hadn't
2932
02:44:09,951 --> 02:44:12,481
made the connection till you just said
it, but it filled me with the same
2933
02:44:12,481 --> 02:44:14,741
feelings of like, music can be this?
2934
02:44:15,558 --> 02:44:21,618
and on its face, so much of it is just
like metal stuff, but they do it so well,
2935
02:44:21,618 --> 02:44:26,808
and it's how they do it, and it's the
visuals and the ideas and the everything
2936
02:44:26,808 --> 02:44:29,288
between the more traditional parts.
2937
02:44:29,918 --> 02:44:34,788
Um, yeah, they are-- That's a
superb outfit, Blood Incantation,
2938
02:44:34,798 --> 02:44:36,368
who just played at Pompeii,
2939
02:44:36,996 --> 02:44:37,166
Cliff: Yeah.
2940
02:44:37,518 --> 02:44:40,838
Kyle: uh, which is incred-
Were they opening for Opeth?
2941
02:44:40,838 --> 02:44:41,958
Somebody like that.
2942
02:44:42,136 --> 02:44:42,876
Cliff: I think so, yeah
2943
02:44:43,468 --> 02:44:47,218
Kyle: Just a great moment, and
obviously both of those bands owe,
2944
02:44:47,568 --> 02:44:49,338
owe a great debt to Pink Floyd.
2945
02:44:49,988 --> 02:44:52,228
So a beautiful full circle moment there.
2946
02:44:52,360 --> 02:44:52,910
Cliff: Totally.
2947
02:44:53,130 --> 02:44:53,600
Totally.
2948
02:44:53,980 --> 02:44:56,350
Moving through a few
other categories quickly.
2949
02:44:57,040 --> 02:45:00,840
I'll call this category time signatures
are just a number, but I sing sometimes.
2950
02:45:01,910 --> 02:45:07,210
Dillinger Escape Plan, Car Bomb,
Callous Daoboys are all in this, "Oh,
2951
02:45:07,260 --> 02:45:10,980
okay, I enjoy not totally knowing
what's gonna happen next" category.
2952
02:45:11,270 --> 02:45:14,450
If you're down, that is a
cool rabbit hole to chase.
2953
02:45:14,490 --> 02:45:17,960
There's a lot of cool music in just
in those three bands, honestly.
2954
02:45:18,500 --> 02:45:20,800
Um, but everything else
connected to it is pretty cool.
2955
02:45:21,370 --> 02:45:23,950
Kyle: Callous Da Boyz is not
one that I had thought of.
2956
02:45:23,960 --> 02:45:29,870
If you dialed up the BTBAM sense of
humor to like E-E-ETID level f**kery,
2957
02:45:30,032 --> 02:45:30,752
Cliff: a good call.
2958
02:45:30,752 --> 02:45:31,062
Yeah.
2959
02:45:31,080 --> 02:45:34,470
Kyle: where it's like, "All right,
kids," that's Callous Da Boyz.
2960
02:45:34,480 --> 02:45:38,870
But yeah, they are constantly doing
stuff musically where I'm like, "Mm,
2961
02:45:38,890 --> 02:45:43,000
that, that's good." It's like watching
a young basketball player where you're
2962
02:45:43,000 --> 02:45:45,040
like, "Oh, the game's about to change."
2963
02:45:45,590 --> 02:45:49,820
That last Callous Da Boyz record, every
time I listen back through it, I'm like,
2964
02:45:50,330 --> 02:45:51,670
"S**t, this is something else, bro."
2965
02:45:52,050 --> 02:45:55,580
Cliff: And another good just
specific example of the like,
2966
02:45:55,780 --> 02:45:58,450
if you're not down with it, it
feels random and frustrates you.
2967
02:45:59,412 --> 02:46:02,852
But as soon as you sort of click into it,
it's, "Oh, okay, no, this is part of the
2968
02:46:02,852 --> 02:46:05,252
riff. I get it." So lots to chase there.
2969
02:46:05,512 --> 02:46:10,812
In a similar but much more like
m- mature and all the dads will
2970
02:46:10,842 --> 02:46:14,902
understand where you're coming
from vein is just like all…
2971
02:46:15,262 --> 02:46:20,892
bands of everyone being especially
good and playing full out all the time.
2972
02:46:21,152 --> 02:46:26,842
So Led Zeppelin, The Mars Volta,
Mahavishnu Orchestra, Billy Cobham,
2973
02:46:27,352 --> 02:46:33,562
and I would even give a pretty loose
association to like Miles Davis in his
2974
02:46:33,562 --> 02:46:38,292
bandleader era, where it was just like
controlled chaos of everyone doing
2975
02:46:38,458 --> 02:46:40,118
Kyle: Like 70s miles?
2976
02:46:40,222 --> 02:46:40,902
Cliff: Yes.
2977
02:46:41,342 --> 02:46:41,702
Yeah
2978
02:46:41,922 --> 02:46:45,942
This is definitely, like you said, more
precise and less abstract than that,
2979
02:46:46,242 --> 02:46:47,802
but in the, in the sense of controlling
2980
02:46:47,824 --> 02:46:50,444
Kyle: Yeah, but in the best
moments of like a Pangea,
2981
02:46:51,312 --> 02:46:51,642
Cliff: Yeah.
2982
02:46:51,974 --> 02:46:53,894
Kyle: you get that same sense, yeah.
2983
02:46:54,708 --> 02:47:00,217
BT BAM is like you could recommend
a whole bunch of free jazz, like I
2984
02:47:00,217 --> 02:47:02,127
thought about Coltrane's "Ascension,"
2985
02:47:02,199 --> 02:47:02,539
Cliff: Yeah.
2986
02:47:02,849 --> 02:47:03,209
Yeah
2987
02:47:03,937 --> 02:47:07,967
Kyle: or Albert Ayler, and then I
thought about jazz fusion, like you said,
2988
02:47:07,977 --> 02:47:10,307
Mahavishnu or like a Weather Report.
2989
02:47:10,687 --> 02:47:14,977
Billy Cobham's "Spectrum" I think
is probably the best like sort of
2990
02:47:14,977 --> 02:47:16,957
point in the middle of that triangle.
2991
02:47:17,357 --> 02:47:22,117
But yeah, it's a-- It is very
jazz-like, but it is a separate third
2992
02:47:22,157 --> 02:47:28,057
thing from too free or too fusion-y,
um, that makes it really cool.
2993
02:47:28,467 --> 02:47:28,737
Cliff: Yep
2994
02:47:29,157 --> 02:47:34,627
Kyle: And it is also not jazz metal,
which is its own thing where it's trying
2995
02:47:34,627 --> 02:47:37,497
to be that, and I don't like any of that.
2996
02:47:37,657 --> 02:47:44,067
With, with respect to the people doing it
and doing it well, not my thing at all.
2997
02:47:44,627 --> 02:47:50,017
BT BAM is good jazz metal because
they're not trying to play jazz or metal
2998
02:47:50,397 --> 02:47:50,977
Cliff: Yes.
2999
02:47:51,677 --> 02:47:52,217
Yes.
3000
02:47:52,607 --> 02:47:56,207
Also, I'll mention in a second
what I believe will be the closest
3001
02:47:56,207 --> 02:47:58,977
thing to jazz metal that you
do like that I know for sure.
3002
02:47:59,517 --> 02:48:01,567
But before we get there,
a couple other categories.
3003
02:48:01,817 --> 02:48:03,567
This would be the Meadly Me category.
3004
02:48:03,577 --> 02:48:06,397
So just like people playing really
f**king fast and it's not always
3005
02:48:06,417 --> 02:48:09,327
great, but it's really entertaining
to watch people do it this way.
3006
02:48:09,617 --> 02:48:11,627
Archspire is a band I saw recently.
3007
02:48:11,917 --> 02:48:13,667
They're some f**king goobers, man.
3008
02:48:13,927 --> 02:48:16,807
Honestly, like it's, it's a
little silly to see them live.
3009
02:48:17,107 --> 02:48:19,977
It's also incredibly precise and wild.
3010
02:48:20,035 --> 02:48:20,885
Kyle: They're so good
3011
02:48:21,183 --> 02:48:22,313
Cliff: it's so wild to see.
3012
02:48:22,633 --> 02:48:27,883
Um, but other bands who were doing
similar sort of wild stuff even at
3013
02:48:27,883 --> 02:48:32,413
this time would've been in bands that
would've gone on tour with them or did.
3014
02:48:32,703 --> 02:48:37,223
So The Fall of Troy and Protest
the Hero were pretty big offshoots
3015
02:48:37,233 --> 02:48:39,233
of this genre of music back then.
3016
02:48:39,533 --> 02:48:43,493
Like fast drumming, fast guitar
playing, quick time changes and stuff.
3017
02:48:43,893 --> 02:48:45,013
Can't say there's a huge dis-
3018
02:48:45,565 --> 02:48:50,645
Kyle: and really soulful, like
good songcraft once again.
3019
02:48:50,965 --> 02:48:55,165
Songs that if you technically
executed them with a lot less flourish
3020
02:48:55,585 --> 02:48:58,175
would just be like good pop songs
3021
02:48:58,275 --> 02:48:58,805
Cliff: Yeah.
3022
02:48:59,185 --> 02:49:00,445
Yep, totally.
3023
02:49:00,545 --> 02:49:04,245
So two more bands in this category
that don't meet that criteria, but
3024
02:49:05,125 --> 02:49:11,065
uh, Dragonforce and Buried Alive are
both bands that are like, "Listen,
3025
02:49:11,085 --> 02:49:15,125
man, I'm not saying go love yourself
for loving Dragonforce all the time
3026
02:49:15,125 --> 02:49:17,375
or whatever," although they did
just get the Arch Enemy singer in.
3027
02:49:17,375 --> 02:49:17,985
That's interesting.
3028
02:49:18,615 --> 02:49:19,585
Kyle: DragonForce did?
3029
02:49:19,765 --> 02:49:20,055
Cliff: yeah,
3030
02:49:20,135 --> 02:49:20,495
yeah.
3031
02:49:20,525 --> 02:49:21,545
Kyle: Jesus.
3032
02:49:22,285 --> 02:49:22,625
Cliff: Yeah.
3033
02:49:22,715 --> 02:49:24,665
Kyle: They got enough of a
following still where that's a
3034
02:49:24,665 --> 02:49:26,215
financially viable decision for
3035
02:49:26,381 --> 02:49:26,621
Cliff: Yep.
3036
02:49:26,791 --> 02:49:27,881
This, yes.
3037
02:49:28,441 --> 02:49:29,961
This, it's gonna be pretty huge for them.
3038
02:49:29,961 --> 02:49:30,631
It's kinda cool.
3039
02:49:31,091 --> 02:49:31,691
Um, I,
3040
02:49:31,701 --> 02:49:33,441
say that as a not Dragon Force fan.
3041
02:49:33,615 --> 02:49:38,155
Kyle: I remember an opener, I'm not
going to name this person, writing on
3042
02:49:38,155 --> 02:49:42,805
their MySpace blog, like I, I remember
reading it sitting at my computer
3043
02:49:42,805 --> 02:49:45,785
in my college apartment said…
3044
02:49:46,215 --> 02:49:48,505
And they'd been on tour with him for
like a month, and he said, "I would
3045
02:49:48,505 --> 02:49:52,645
rather listen to the death rattle of my
own child than ever hear 'Through the
3046
02:49:52,645 --> 02:49:57,668
Fire and Flames' again." That person
doesn't have any children, by the way.
3047
02:49:57,668 --> 02:50:02,448
They prob- they probably remember that
that was not a good, good thing to do.
3048
02:50:02,828 --> 02:50:04,868
Cliff: I nevertheless don't
disagree with the sentiment.
3049
02:50:06,176 --> 02:50:10,056
Kyle: Not how I would've said it, but,
uh, I get where you're coming from, man.
3050
02:50:10,692 --> 02:50:12,822
Cliff: Swinging back into a
co- more categories you'll
3051
02:50:12,822 --> 02:50:14,592
be m- happier with, I think.
3052
02:50:14,602 --> 02:50:18,112
For-- I, I just kinda called this
intensity or otherwise commitment to the
3053
02:50:18,112 --> 02:50:19,962
sort of musical bit that's happening here.
3054
02:50:20,282 --> 02:50:22,002
There's a whole bunch of stuff
that's gonna happen all here
3055
02:50:22,002 --> 02:50:24,712
together, but the band The Ocean did
3056
02:50:24,712 --> 02:50:25,222
things like this.
3057
02:50:26,252 --> 02:50:29,032
You already mentioned it, but
"Crack the Sky" by Mastodon.
3058
02:50:29,142 --> 02:50:32,772
It-- like, if I had to pair another
record with "Colors" ever, it would be
3059
02:50:32,772 --> 02:50:35,332
"Crack the Sky." It is a compliment.
3060
02:50:35,792 --> 02:50:41,262
But other bands that had different amounts
of longevity but sort of differently
3061
02:50:41,262 --> 02:50:42,762
commit to the intensity of the music.
3062
02:50:43,052 --> 02:50:46,882
Rolo Tomassi is a band that's still taking
off and doing really well in this sense.
3063
02:50:46,882 --> 02:50:47,262
They sound
3064
02:50:47,290 --> 02:50:47,700
Kyle: Yeah.
3065
02:50:48,532 --> 02:50:48,972
Cliff: but
3066
02:50:49,050 --> 02:50:49,940
Kyle: really matured.
3067
02:50:50,162 --> 02:50:51,722
Cliff: yeah I love their stuff.
3068
02:50:52,182 --> 02:50:56,502
A couple of bands that popped up
faster or more temporarily for a while.
3069
02:50:56,872 --> 02:50:59,442
Destrage was a band
that put out a couple of
3070
02:50:59,442 --> 02:51:01,332
records that touched on this.
3071
02:51:01,392 --> 02:51:01,762
Yeah.
3072
02:51:02,142 --> 02:51:03,432
They g- they got kinda close.
3073
02:51:03,462 --> 02:51:04,302
It was interesting.
3074
02:51:04,442 --> 02:51:10,592
Similar to that Cloudkicker, especially
the original instrumental kind of
3075
02:51:10,592 --> 02:51:14,222
metal adjacent records were pretty
similar to what's happening here.
3076
02:51:14,592 --> 02:51:17,912
And then also another band I've tried
to bury in references before, but
3077
02:51:18,202 --> 02:51:22,722
Buried Alive wrote a concept record
called "Chronoclast," which was just a
3078
02:51:22,722 --> 02:51:24,662
black metal record about the nature of
3079
02:51:24,786 --> 02:51:27,356
Kyle: Wait, Buried Alive or Buried Inside?
3080
02:51:27,624 --> 02:51:28,034
Cliff: Thank you.
3081
02:51:28,034 --> 02:51:28,924
Buried Inside.
3082
02:51:29,064 --> 02:51:29,484
Yes.
3083
02:51:29,704 --> 02:51:33,544
Buried Alive is the band I mentioned
earlier with the colorful guitars.
3084
02:51:34,004 --> 02:51:34,374
Yes.
3085
02:51:34,434 --> 02:51:37,344
Buried Inside is the band
that didn't exist for long
3086
02:51:37,354 --> 02:51:37,664
enough.
3087
02:51:38,914 --> 02:51:39,454
Yes.
3088
02:51:39,924 --> 02:51:42,734
So this was the band I was saying that's
probably the closest to jazz metal.
3089
02:51:42,734 --> 02:51:48,534
They do like Ethel Duath and especially
the … Yeah, it's never a cool way to say
3090
02:51:48,534 --> 02:51:48,674
it.
3091
02:51:48,924 --> 02:51:50,484
Uh, yeah.
3092
02:51:50,594 --> 02:51:53,834
Um, but especially A Painter's
Palette, I think it was called, was
3093
02:51:53,834 --> 02:51:56,624
the one back in the day that was
really adjacent to all this stuff.
3094
02:51:56,624 --> 02:52:01,534
But it also reminded me of like
one-off type bands that did cool
3095
02:52:01,544 --> 02:52:06,684
stuff in the MySpace to, like
MySpace to Facebook transition era.
3096
02:52:07,104 --> 02:52:11,374
So Ethel Duath re- reminded me of
it, yes, but Blueprint Car Crash was
3097
02:52:11,374 --> 02:52:15,294
one that only put out one EP that had
this weird like math rock thing to it.
3098
02:52:15,664 --> 02:52:19,224
Another one that was actually produced
by Jamie King, the producer of this
3099
02:52:19,224 --> 02:52:21,894
record, "Nocturne" by The Human Abstract
3100
02:52:22,070 --> 02:52:24,040
Kyle: Oh, Human Abstract.
3101
02:52:24,582 --> 02:52:27,752
Cliff: They were another band who sort of
walked up to what Between the Buried and
3102
02:52:27,752 --> 02:52:32,382
Me was doing, but, but weren't able to,
you know, necessarily carry it for long.
3103
02:52:32,692 --> 02:52:35,212
And then I even mentioned because
they came to mind in that context
3104
02:52:35,262 --> 02:52:40,022
Red Sparowes, like a semi super
group of like Isis and Neurosis
3105
02:52:40,022 --> 02:52:40,912
related people
3106
02:52:41,142 --> 02:52:41,280
who
3107
02:52:41,280 --> 02:52:41,620
Kyle: yeah,
3108
02:52:41,802 --> 02:52:43,192
Cliff: post-rock and things like that.
3109
02:52:43,360 --> 02:52:45,690
Kyle: They were the best of the,
they were the best of the bunch, man.
3110
02:52:45,690 --> 02:52:47,160
Those Red Sparowes records.
3111
02:52:47,520 --> 02:52:50,130
Uh, I'm thinking of two.
3112
02:52:50,510 --> 02:52:50,990
The,
3113
02:52:51,330 --> 02:52:51,450
The
3114
02:52:51,450 --> 02:52:53,150
Fear excruciating.
3115
02:52:53,700 --> 02:52:54,880
and then
3116
02:52:55,440 --> 02:52:59,480
the "Those Who Die May…"
3117
02:52:59,758 --> 02:53:00,608
Cliff: Live forever?
3118
02:53:00,818 --> 02:53:01,158
Yeah.
3119
02:53:01,546 --> 02:53:02,156
Kyle: Yeah, yeah.
3120
02:53:02,426 --> 02:53:05,696
The, the, the like the 2006
one and then the 2010 one.
3121
02:53:05,982 --> 02:53:07,232
they were great
3122
02:53:08,613 --> 02:53:11,243
Cliff: so yeah, h- honestly, and I, and
I feel like, you know, I wrote a couple
3123
02:53:11,243 --> 02:53:15,473
other ones down that are more like, uh, if
you super love prog, you should probably
3124
02:53:15,473 --> 02:53:19,153
make sure you've listened to Rush and
Yes and f**king Porcupine Tree and stuff,
3125
02:53:19,493 --> 02:53:20,793
'cause you can work your way up to this.
3126
02:53:21,003 --> 02:53:24,743
But honestly, to me, in this context,
and especially this deep in the episode,
3127
02:53:24,963 --> 02:53:26,363
that feels like the most obvious thing.
3128
02:53:26,503 --> 02:53:29,333
If you're gonna like prog, you probably
already know this about yourself
3129
02:53:29,343 --> 02:53:31,510
already, uh, and have walked that path.
3130
02:53:32,058 --> 02:53:34,748
I, kinda doubt this would be
the front door to any of that.
3131
02:53:35,008 --> 02:53:38,848
I'm much more interested into it,
or in it becoming a path to a lot
3132
02:53:38,848 --> 02:53:39,928
of the other things we mentioned.
3133
02:53:40,414 --> 02:53:40,724
Kyle: Yeah.
3134
02:53:40,881 --> 02:53:43,031
so I do have a couple of bumper ones then.
3135
02:53:43,601 --> 02:53:48,511
I would say there's a handful in the
context of, wow, I can't believe all this
3136
02:53:48,511 --> 02:53:53,861
stuff was happening right at the same
time and sort of maybe influen- you know,
3137
02:53:53,861 --> 02:53:57,761
like they were aware of each other, if not
going so far as influencing each other.
3138
02:53:58,101 --> 02:54:03,621
But just in the like 2005, 2006
moment of really taking big swings,
3139
02:54:03,931 --> 02:54:07,011
there was a record we talk about
all the time in Francis the Mute.
3140
02:54:07,191 --> 02:54:11,891
Like "De-Loused" was a seminal record for,
it was a band's band record from the a-
3141
02:54:11,891 --> 02:54:13,671
you know, mostly the At the Drive-In guys.
3142
02:54:13,671 --> 02:54:18,681
But then Francis the Mute was like this
big freaky prog thing that it still
3143
02:54:18,681 --> 02:54:23,561
blows my mind that it broke through
in the mid 2000s and the height of the
3144
02:54:23,571 --> 02:54:26,501
OC puka shell necklace bro culture.
3145
02:54:26,521 --> 02:54:27,071
You know what I mean?
3146
02:54:27,611 --> 02:54:31,911
We talked about Fear Before that the
record around that time that they
3147
02:54:31,911 --> 02:54:35,521
said they were playing in the van
a lot was "The Always Open Mouth".
3148
02:54:35,899 --> 02:54:40,059
A band that I'm pretty sure you put
me onto, but I know we both like,
3149
02:54:40,249 --> 02:54:42,189
Intronaut, the first Intronaut
3150
02:54:42,692 --> 02:54:43,552
Cliff: Hell yeah
3151
02:54:43,669 --> 02:54:48,889
Kyle: LP, "Void." Uh, they put out the EP
"Null," but the LP was "Void," and they've
3152
02:54:48,889 --> 02:54:50,849
done a bunch of great stuff since then.
3153
02:54:51,239 --> 02:54:56,649
But I remember us both, Intronaut and
Into the Moat were two records where we
3154
02:54:56,649 --> 02:55:01,869
were like, "This is incredible." And it
was just sort of a moment and, like, I
3155
02:55:01,869 --> 02:55:06,119
don't think In the, Into the Moat has done
stuff necessarily like Intronaut has kept
3156
02:55:06,119 --> 02:55:06,299
on
3157
02:55:06,309 --> 02:55:06,919
plugging.
3158
02:55:07,049 --> 02:55:08,209
Cliff: Internauts got a lot of great
3159
02:55:08,279 --> 02:55:10,149
Kyle: They got a lot of great
records, and, and their best
3160
02:55:10,149 --> 02:55:12,539
stuff is their newer stuff for me.
3161
02:55:12,939 --> 02:55:15,669
But "Void" was 2006.
3162
02:55:16,129 --> 02:55:19,179
I can't believe we haven't talked
about Meshuggah more than we did.
3163
02:55:19,359 --> 02:55:22,429
you could pick any, you could point at
any number of Meshuggah records and,
3164
02:55:22,479 --> 02:55:27,339
and make an apt comparison in terms of
the… I mean, that's sort of the thesis
3165
02:55:27,339 --> 02:55:30,899
of the whole Meshuggah episode is, like,
pushing the physical and mental limits
3166
02:55:30,899 --> 02:55:36,519
of what's possible with, uh, what we can
pull down from musical understanding.
3167
02:55:37,079 --> 02:55:42,409
But I specifically think of "Catch
33" 'cause it was 2005, and they made
3168
02:55:42,409 --> 02:55:46,739
a record that they intended for it
to be physically impossible to write
3169
02:55:46,739 --> 02:55:48,279
and play, and then they learned it.
3170
02:55:48,929 --> 02:55:51,429
And that feels very in
the spirit of BT BAM.
3171
02:55:51,489 --> 02:55:55,919
It's just like, it's a very, that's
a bruising record to get through.
3172
02:55:56,419 --> 02:56:00,939
You would probably say "I," the 21-minute
one-song EP that came immediately
3173
02:56:00,939 --> 02:56:04,439
before that, that I think is still,
like, a favorite Meshuggah of yours.
3174
02:56:04,439 --> 02:56:06,219
But "Catch 33" is it for me.
3175
02:56:06,599 --> 02:56:09,679
And then you mentioned "Crack the Skye,"
but I would say "Blood Mountain" 'cause
3176
02:56:09,679 --> 02:56:12,029
that's like a, that's a ferocious record.
3177
02:56:12,049 --> 02:56:17,909
That was a major label debut for them,
and they just went absolutely balls out.
3178
02:56:18,529 --> 02:56:22,239
So it's got the drop in intensity
of "Alaska," but it's got some of
3179
02:56:22,239 --> 02:56:25,479
the, like, weirdness of "Colors."
3180
02:56:25,859 --> 02:56:27,509
They get kinda freaky in some parts.
3181
02:56:28,119 --> 02:56:31,839
So I, I would encapsulate all
those as, like, a ri- happening
3182
02:56:31,839 --> 02:56:33,459
at the same time moment.
3183
02:56:34,099 --> 02:56:39,439
And if you don't understand why Cliff and
my brains are the way that they are, it's
3184
02:56:39,439 --> 02:56:43,549
because our frontal cortexes were forming
around the shape of records like this
3185
02:56:43,827 --> 02:56:44,197
Cliff: Yep
3186
02:56:44,379 --> 02:56:45,779
Kyle: when we were 18 years old.
3187
02:56:46,159 --> 02:56:49,469
Cliff: They, they tell you not to
take acid when your frontal lobe
3188
02:56:49,469 --> 02:56:52,869
is still forming, but they don't
tell you not to listen to Colors.
3189
02:56:52,879 --> 02:56:54,069
Kyle: To Francis the mute and
3190
02:56:54,069 --> 02:56:58,859
colors, yeah, on repeat over and over
and over again, morning, noon, and night.
3191
02:56:59,239 --> 02:57:01,549
We're fine-ish now.
3192
02:57:02,209 --> 02:57:08,569
Then there's like two to however many
records from "The Anatomy Of," like
3193
02:57:08,569 --> 02:57:12,169
if you straight up look at their list
of here are things we wanna point
3194
02:57:12,169 --> 02:57:13,919
you back to from their covers album.
3195
02:57:14,369 --> 02:57:18,319
Two underappreciated-- I mean, like
they do "And Justice for All" on there.
3196
02:57:18,319 --> 02:57:19,539
They do Pantera.
3197
02:57:19,589 --> 02:57:23,279
They do Earth Crisis, which is-- They
do Earth Crisis into an acoustic Blind
3198
02:57:23,289 --> 02:57:29,479
Melon song, which is like that is
the chef's kiss description of what
3199
02:57:29,479 --> 02:57:31,839
you get from the BTBaM experience to
3200
02:57:31,839 --> 02:57:32,099
me.
3201
02:57:32,517 --> 02:57:35,927
But the two that I think are like
underappreciated dimensions of
3202
02:57:35,927 --> 02:57:42,127
what make them great creators are
"Angel Dust" by Faith No More.
3203
02:57:42,137 --> 02:57:47,457
And I'm not personally like a huge
Mike Patton band fan or appreciator.
3204
02:57:47,697 --> 02:57:50,207
I just like can't get my
head around most of it.
3205
02:57:50,477 --> 02:57:54,627
I did just see Tomahawk with
the Melvins and that was sick.
3206
02:57:55,227 --> 02:57:57,977
Still not 100% my thing, but
I was like, "Okay, I get it.
3207
02:57:57,987 --> 02:58:01,777
I respect this." So "Angel Dust"
by Faith No More, they cover
3208
02:58:01,777 --> 02:58:06,837
"Malpractice" on "The Anatomy Of," and
then "Siamese Dream" by The Smashing
3209
02:58:06,837 --> 02:58:07,597
Pumpkins.
3210
02:58:07,675 --> 02:58:08,065
Cliff: sure
3211
02:58:08,597 --> 02:58:14,297
Kyle: You're not gonna catch me defending
William Corgan the person but great
3212
02:58:14,297 --> 02:58:16,737
guitar record, incredible songs on that.
3213
02:58:16,867 --> 02:58:19,297
They cover "Geek USA" on that record.
3214
02:58:19,857 --> 02:58:23,517
But there's like a, there's
like a yearny component.
3215
02:58:23,537 --> 02:58:25,227
It's like yearning grunge.
3216
02:58:25,257 --> 02:58:28,797
There's a different emotional dimension
to Smashing Pumpkins than any of their
3217
02:58:28,797 --> 02:58:34,337
peer bands that kind of connects to
the like Tears for Fears sort of,
3218
02:58:34,347 --> 02:58:40,667
sort of melancholy, h- like no pun
intended aspect of that, that they
3219
02:58:40,667 --> 02:58:43,007
draw out really well in guitar music.
3220
02:58:43,007 --> 02:58:46,217
So I would chalk a lot of
that up, I would say, to Tommy
3221
02:58:46,217 --> 02:58:48,787
Rogers maybe some Dan Briggs.
3222
02:58:48,797 --> 02:58:51,497
You know, they all bring different
vocabularies to the band, but there's
3223
02:58:51,497 --> 02:58:57,997
like a… There's that emotional
dimension that comes from like rock songs.
3224
02:58:58,547 --> 02:59:00,567
So Faith, Faith No More
and Smashing Pumpkins.
3225
02:59:00,947 --> 02:59:04,217
And then there's like the
classic rock and jazz stuff.
3226
02:59:04,491 --> 02:59:09,609
it's too 101 to not bear saying out
loud that, like, if you love Colors,
3227
02:59:09,629 --> 02:59:11,719
you should listen to "Dark Side of the
3228
02:59:11,719 --> 02:59:12,219
Moon."
3229
02:59:12,563 --> 02:59:12,893
Cliff: yeah
3230
02:59:13,209 --> 02:59:18,549
Kyle: There's a great anecdote also
from Dan Briggs where he said in that
3231
02:59:18,549 --> 02:59:21,209
same essay: "This is probably a good
time to mention that I was wildly
3232
02:59:21,209 --> 02:59:24,119
excited to finally be part of writing
a concept album, even though I knew
3233
02:59:24,129 --> 02:59:25,439
lyrically it wouldn't be connected.
3234
02:59:25,779 --> 02:59:28,529
Of course, we were all expired--
inspired by 'Dark Side of the Moon,'
3235
02:59:28,529 --> 02:59:31,709
but in high school, three of my favorite
albums were Cursive's 'Ugly Organ,'
3236
02:59:32,029 --> 02:59:35,319
Flaming Lips' 'Yoshimi Battles the Pink
Robots,' and Dream Theater's 'Scenes
3237
02:59:35,329 --> 02:59:37,999
From a Memory.' So I'd been locked
in and ready to do this for years.
3238
02:59:37,999 --> 02:59:39,239
I just never had the opportunity.
3239
02:59:39,599 --> 02:59:41,169
It's funny mentioning 'Dark Side' though.
3240
02:59:41,249 --> 02:59:44,039
Tony, the head of Victory Records,
initially said he didn't like our
3241
02:59:44,039 --> 02:59:47,169
cover 'cause it was too similar
to Pink Floyd's album cover 'cause
3242
02:59:47,169 --> 02:59:48,509
it had black and rainbow colors.
3243
02:59:48,879 --> 02:59:51,799
But later, when he flew us up to the
office before the album was released
3244
02:59:51,809 --> 02:59:54,509
to do a series of meetings with every
branch at the label, he'd tell us
3245
02:59:54,519 --> 02:59:57,689
that we were going to be the Pink
Floyd of metal, and this was going to
3246
02:59:57,689 --> 02:59:59,239
be our 'Dark Side' or some bulls**t.
3247
02:59:59,459 --> 03:00:05,159
He was the king of blowing smoke up your
ass." Having said all that, they do cover
3248
03:00:05,159 --> 03:00:07,909
"Us and Them" on "The Anatomy Of," and
3249
03:00:08,519 --> 03:00:12,549
like it just gets no better than
"Dark Side of the Moon." As much as
3250
03:00:12,549 --> 03:00:17,389
I wanna destroy the part of myself
that says a boomer thing out loud
3251
03:00:17,809 --> 03:00:20,369
like that, When I start saying "Sgt.
3252
03:00:20,379 --> 03:00:23,519
Pepper's is the best album ever," then
it's time to wrap this podcast up,
3253
03:00:23,529 --> 03:00:28,997
but I can at least be an apologist for
"Dark Side." And then th-three others.
3254
03:00:29,317 --> 03:00:33,847
One is King Crimson, specifically "Red."
Like you mentioned a bunch of prog stuff,
3255
03:00:33,857 --> 03:00:39,947
but I think King Crimson definitely,
and "Red" feels the most like between
3256
03:00:39,947 --> 03:00:41,627
the Buried and me of all of them.
3257
03:00:42,007 --> 03:00:45,677
I also like never got into this
record, but I kept thinking about
3258
03:00:45,687 --> 03:00:50,477
how when you were like 16 or 17,
you were recommending "The Lamb
3259
03:00:50,477 --> 03:00:53,287
Lies Down on Broadway" t-to people.
3260
03:00:53,577 --> 03:00:54,667
Cliff: F**king Genesis Records.
3261
03:00:54,817 --> 03:00:59,547
Kyle: Like you, you were into
really heady stuff at, at way too
3262
03:00:59,547 --> 03:01:03,477
young an age, and this was like
pre, pre-psychedelics or anything.
3263
03:01:03,887 --> 03:01:05,747
So I gotta give you your kudos for that.
3264
03:01:06,277 --> 03:01:09,947
The second one would be mentioned
already, Billy Cobham's "Spectrum"
3265
03:01:10,487 --> 03:01:14,027
lights me up in exactly the
same way that this record does.
3266
03:01:14,637 --> 03:01:19,257
And then the, the third I would just
like broadly point at Allan Holdsworth
3267
03:01:19,637 --> 03:01:24,547
as an influence of theirs, guitarist from
The Soft Machine, and went on to have
3268
03:01:24,567 --> 03:01:26,557
like-- You talked about crazy guitarists.
3269
03:01:26,557 --> 03:01:30,717
He's a crazy guitarist who has… I
don't wanna compare him to Lou Reed,
3270
03:01:30,717 --> 03:01:34,747
but has like taken on that breadth
of stuff that he has done, and he's
3271
03:01:34,747 --> 03:01:36,277
had lots of different collaborators.
3272
03:01:36,787 --> 03:01:41,497
Like he was on a great record with
Jean-Luc Ponty in the '70s, but
3273
03:01:41,497 --> 03:01:46,007
there's one record specifically
that like the sampling hip-hop
3274
03:01:46,047 --> 03:01:49,127
whatever guy in me is really into.
3275
03:01:49,607 --> 03:01:52,767
The drummer Tony Williams put together
a band called the Tony Williams
3276
03:01:52,767 --> 03:01:57,457
Lifetime, and they put out a record in
1975 called "Believe It" that Allan's
3277
03:01:57,457 --> 03:01:59,847
Ho- Allan Holdsworth plays guitar on.
3278
03:02:00,277 --> 03:02:06,037
So you can do solo Holdsworth,
like "Metal Fatigue" from '85.
3279
03:02:06,047 --> 03:02:09,527
He had a record in the late '90s
or early 2000s that was like a
3280
03:02:09,597 --> 03:02:11,857
straight-ahead jazz standards record.
3281
03:02:12,317 --> 03:02:15,827
But then there's stuff like this Tony
Williams record where he's playing with
3282
03:02:16,097 --> 03:02:20,897
an all-time great drummer and sort of
arguably playing circles around him.
3283
03:02:21,467 --> 03:02:26,397
But it's always nice to look for things
that evoke the sensation that you
3284
03:02:26,427 --> 03:02:30,677
mentioned a number of times, Cliff, where
it's like people who are individually very
3285
03:02:30,677 --> 03:02:37,117
good doing the one plus one equals three
and somehow becoming even better together
3286
03:02:37,567 --> 03:02:40,997
than they could in their own thing,
'cause they're all challenging each other.
3287
03:02:41,377 --> 03:02:42,307
Music can be this
3288
03:02:42,759 --> 03:02:45,689
Cliff: That makes me throw in one
extra of them crooked vultures
3289
03:02:45,998 --> 03:02:46,898
Kyle: Oh, God.
3290
03:02:48,548 --> 03:02:49,548
What a moment that was.
3291
03:02:49,758 --> 03:02:50,088
Cliff: Yep.
3292
03:02:50,178 --> 03:02:53,098
But another pretty good example
of just, "Oh, we're gonna be good
3293
03:02:53,098 --> 03:02:54,848
at this. Just hold on." Yeah.
3294
03:02:55,228 --> 03:02:56,268
Man, I loved all of that.
3295
03:02:56,368 --> 03:03:00,759
Ultimately, f- thank you everybody
for this tour inside of my noggin.
3296
03:03:01,349 --> 03:03:06,219
In general though, if e- even if
you're having a sort of like "Jesus
3297
03:03:06,219 --> 03:03:09,544
Christ, why is he like this? I've
listened to so much about this now."
3298
03:03:09,594 --> 03:03:11,464
Listen man, just that's fine.
3299
03:03:11,634 --> 03:03:15,934
Even if this doesn't connect with you as
is, you got something like this, right?
3300
03:03:16,226 --> 03:03:17,986
Like you got something like this, right?
3301
03:03:18,666 --> 03:03:19,316
Don't you?
3302
03:03:19,656 --> 03:03:23,146
And if you don't, like try
to go find it probably now.
3303
03:03:24,116 --> 03:03:27,506
If you got something like this, especially
that hit you at an important moment
3304
03:03:27,506 --> 03:03:33,126
in time and it means something to you,
you could at minimum honor the spirit
3305
03:03:33,146 --> 03:03:36,216
of this record, even if you're not
interested in it, by going and finding
3306
03:03:36,216 --> 03:03:39,836
your version of whatever this is and
sitting down and shutting your mouth
3307
03:03:40,096 --> 03:03:45,256
and listening to it and feeling all the
things you used to feel, remembering
3308
03:03:45,256 --> 03:03:49,626
who you used to be, and thinking about
who you'd like to be tomorrow, and
3309
03:03:49,626 --> 03:03:55,266
thinking about, as they say so aptly,
this is all you have when we die.
3310
03:03:55,426 --> 03:03:56,386
Like this is it.
3311
03:03:56,635 --> 03:04:00,995
for me, a significant portion of my
existence on planet Earth is tied
3312
03:04:00,995 --> 03:04:03,445
up in this record and in this band.
3313
03:04:03,455 --> 03:04:07,385
Like it's meaningful to me and it
lights me up in a great way that has
3314
03:04:07,405 --> 03:04:09,355
paid off for, you know, decades now.
3315
03:04:09,715 --> 03:04:15,095
And so I, again, even more so than
like I want you to love this record,
3316
03:04:15,095 --> 03:04:17,385
which I do, please give it a try.
3317
03:04:17,415 --> 03:04:22,885
If I have any trust of yours, please
try at least once and check this
3318
03:04:22,885 --> 03:04:24,425
thing out and see what lights you up.
3319
03:04:24,705 --> 03:04:29,165
But if not, get that other thing
that you know lights you up
3320
03:04:29,417 --> 03:04:30,407
Kyle: I you to love
3321
03:04:30,407 --> 03:04:30,927
something
3322
03:04:31,185 --> 03:04:31,435
Cliff: Yeah.
3323
03:04:31,647 --> 03:04:32,297
Kyle: this record.
3324
03:04:32,535 --> 03:04:33,155
Cliff: Yes.
3325
03:04:33,695 --> 03:04:38,895
And then sit and feel and be thankful
that every now and then, no matter what
3326
03:04:38,905 --> 03:04:45,035
happens, something like this exists in our
life and we have some form of art that we
3327
03:04:45,035 --> 03:04:47,005
can not only come back to but that like…
3328
03:04:47,335 --> 03:04:47,675
I don't know.
3329
03:04:47,815 --> 03:04:50,905
I, I find this to be a beautiful thing
that something would be this meaningful to
3330
03:04:50,905 --> 03:04:56,175
me, and it's just five dudes, one of whom
I've been on like a Zoom call with before.
3331
03:04:56,815 --> 03:04:59,615
Just like there have been moments
where like I really wanted to have
3332
03:04:59,615 --> 03:05:05,585
like a cosmic moment with that dude,
just like, "Do you know how important
3333
03:05:05,615 --> 03:05:08,245
what you did was to me as a person?"
3334
03:05:08,695 --> 03:05:10,515
And it's like that would be way too much.
3335
03:05:11,165 --> 03:05:12,805
And so o- obviously I didn't.
3336
03:05:12,805 --> 03:05:16,305
But like to know that that's real and
that people are on the other side of
3337
03:05:16,305 --> 03:05:17,915
this going, "Music can be like this.
3338
03:05:17,935 --> 03:05:22,165
Do you wanna live your life as if music
can be like this?" And I'm going, "Yes.
3339
03:05:22,415 --> 03:05:27,645
Fucking White Walls all day." Like if
you can find something that matches this
3340
03:05:28,275 --> 03:05:32,355
with anything that you're feeling or
experiencing, I really encourage you to
3341
03:05:32,355 --> 03:05:36,365
go back to it, uh, and draw from that
well again as many times as you can.