Can Spiritual Practices Belong In Therapy? | Tina Vitolo

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[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome, I'm your host Paula Skatalone, the founder of Transformative Permanix, the podcast that offers listeners a synthesis of ancient wisdom and modern science.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The spiritual, kind of more transpersonal world was very rigid against conventional clinical Western care and then the Western side was thinking that everything over here was woo woo nonsense.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've never seen a field hate innovations so much than the therapy world.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is not worth it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So well, like I don't know why everyone is over here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I mean do we think that the mental health state of the world is like Do you want to be saying like I like why do we eat this so much?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello listeners, welcome back to transformative harmonics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Paula Scatolloni, before we start as always.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to invite you to settle your nervous system just a bit, so you can take in what we're about to talk about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: A many of the guests that I have have so many years of wisdom and although innovative new ideas, and so it's a lot to take in in one
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[SPEAKER_01]: So if you simply just find your back body, bring your attention to what's behind you, and move out of first or fifth gear and first a little bit, slowing down with the breath, maybe elongating your exhale.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and allowing your eyes to span around the room or space.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's a natural process of just laying down the nervous system that takes place and gives us a chance to share with you some of this beautiful wisdom today, but also gives you a chance to have a place for it to land.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, welcome, welcome, Tina.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's great.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So great to have you here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We've been balancing back and forth for a while.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad if we get to have this as a long overdue conversation, but the timing with your book feels right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So so I'd like to welcome you to this community.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And my audience is already heard about your book, but today we'll be talking a little bit more in depth about it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I know, you know, when I saw that, I was like ding-ing-ing, so I'm sure a lot of us feel that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And this book is really a permission slip to not have to fit into the boxes anymore and to redefine yourself so that you're anchoring into your own authentic self.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm excited to talk about it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Wonderful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's start a little with your story.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I have read the book and have listened in for that narrative underneath, because we all have a narrative of why, why we, you know, went on this journey and you have your own narrative coming from a family of healers, sounds like, but also very educated woman all the way through to a PhD.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, talking to you, doctor, it's a DSW.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I always have to, I always have the degrees where I have to say it's a DSW, not a Ph.D. You're right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's launch there then.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How does someone who it feels like you went in with this awareness that there was a split between your two worlds, and you figured out how to integrate them?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I have.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I would say it's been a journey of following breadcrumbs while also going through my own transformative healing journey and it was like I couldn't really get, I feel like to my sole purpose on why I was here until I kind of healed through some stuff, some relational stuff, some, you know, intergenerational...
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[SPEAKER_00]: pieces of it to it kind of like was a parallel process.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, as I was kind of growing through one thing, I started to be able to see and be like, oh, well, what happens if I kind of keep exploring over here and kind of following the nudges.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I guess I'll say, so like I mean, if we're going way back, I couldn't really.
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[SPEAKER_00]: deal with the level of anxiety.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was experiencing at a very young age.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't understand that I was an empath.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't understand.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't into it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I didn't know these terms.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I just knew I felt things on a thousand and new things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But never had confirmation on if this was true or not true or all of these things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, when you're younger, you don't really learn about your family and gifts that they have until you're kind of like way older.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And,
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[SPEAKER_00]: My background being Italian, Italians tend to kind of hold information for a while until eventually kind of start owning your space a little bit more and then people start kind of sharing a little bit more.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it was kind of like an uncovering of a lot of different things, but for me I had a really hard time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Healing through just conventional ways of healing like it nothing fit for me I was always like yeah, but what about this like I was a therapist I was going to school I was getting my master's degree, but I would go to my own therapist I didn't find it to be very beneficial like I was looking for depths
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, I couldn't get it in my conventional care.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I found myself kind of drifting over, not releasing and being like, okay, conventional care sucks.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But I was just like, what else is out here?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because this isn't working.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So found myself in front of like psychics, intuitive, ginsian healers, you know, going into a pathway for aggression and being like, wow, like, you know, now I'm really starting to, this is making sense for me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I feel seen.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and then this weird thing happened on both sides.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was like the spiritual kind of more transpersonal world was very rigid against conventional clinical western care and then the western side was thinking that everything over here was woo woo nonsense.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I didn't like either of those rigid containers.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was always be like, well, why can't both have a seat at the table?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, if you weren't like fully holistic, everything is this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, or all best or it was like, you couldn't really find a space to fit.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I've always considered myself the black sheep of the family and I know most of the clinicians I work with kind of feel that way both in the field and in their family.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The reason I even chose the term is because this is about finding the self, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is about authenticity.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason the black sheep even became this term is you can't die that wool any other color.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's just black.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Where white wool, you can die it to be any color you want.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So,
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[SPEAKER_00]: the black sheep weren't really as profitable because you couldn't make all of these different colors or morph them into all of these different things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They just were who they were.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that has been like my lifelong journey.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's just kind of figuring out like who the hell am I from a very young and perspective.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like
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[SPEAKER_00]: what's my sole purpose here in this collective.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I've always kind of teared back and forth between educating myself both academically, but then also in body-ment practices of like, what do I need to actually heal?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I want to be knowledgeable, but I would always lean towards like, I joke that I have psychics on payroll because I'm constantly like,
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[SPEAKER_00]: this is where I need to get my information.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What a spirit.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Want me to know right now.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't make logical decisions of course, but it's like when I have to make a big decision, I'm going to my spiritual team like what do I got to do next versus like what's the next steps strategically that I should do?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I kept kind of finding myself drawn to these different places and I studied a lot of holistic health and spirituality and when I went back from my doctorate, I was like, I want to study this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I want to understand like, is there something here?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Is there more than one person like me that both of these worlds?
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[SPEAKER_00]: together can actually help facilitate change.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I did a lot of research on complementary and alternative practices in clinical social work and understanding like, you know, all of therapists I know are also like reiki masters, they're like intuitive, they're mediums.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I've never just met a therapist that's just a therapist.
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[SPEAKER_00]: probably because collectively my circle has more dynamic souls, I guess in it, where it's safe to have these conversations, but I was like, man, you know, all of these therapists are going through these spiritual embodiments, at least I'll say the good ones.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, are going through this embodiment changes and they're really trying to heal all these parts of themselves, and then they want to bring this into therapy and then they're like, I don't know how to do this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then I feel like the which one gets activated and whatever time you're previously alive whatever it gets activated and everyone is so scared.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's this big message that you absolutely can't integrate these things into therapy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is something completely separate.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I started to finally kind of get the balls to like challenge that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, okay, we're saying this, but I just researched this for three years and there's a lot of researching that this stuff is really powerful and people are leaning towards it because conventional care is failing them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like how do we
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[SPEAKER_00]: make some guidelines where this can be both ethical and within professional regulations and still be done well, you know, because what I saw happening was most therapists were jumping to coaching, which I get because the boards are overwhelming, therapists are mean,
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's a lot of tradition holders that don't actually hold any truth that have a lot of pressure, a lot of myths, so people can exhaust it, especially when you're like a highly sensitive healer, like you got no time for all that extra pressure or you're like, you're gonna buckle because it's so overwhelming.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But I actually started to get kind of pissed off, like I was just kind of like this doesn't make sense to me, so.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Anger is like a really good emotion for me to get things done, so I.
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[SPEAKER_00]: was like, no, I'm going to figure this out because I went, I started to get to the point where I had the degree, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: There was a DR in front of my name, and I still didn't know something about my field.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, that's a little ridiculous because I've got the highest degree available for my field, so I should know how to do this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and I started to get really comfortable with asking questions and a lot of the feedback I got just wasn't landing for me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, well, where do you read that?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Where is it say that I can't do this?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Where I'm reading my state boards.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't see anything in here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm reaching out to the boards themselves and they're giving me these answers that sound crazy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like,
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[SPEAKER_00]: We write the laws, but we don't interpret what they mean and I was like, what do you mean?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that would get me more pissed off.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, you know, you write these things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So you obviously know what they mean.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what do you mean?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I just wouldn't accept it as an answer.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, any more.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I had a spiritual download, like honestly, I was like frustrated, I was like zoning out on my couch and I heard very clear is day malpractice law group and when I get a download that doesn't make any sense to me, I usually that's like, that's a big breadcrum.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm like, okay, like.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, I'll I'll bite whatever so I went online and I looked up two groups and I emailed them and one just got Mac back to me immediately.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So when something's also quick.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I just I found a little more it's easy like spirits got my back like let me go this route.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I remember talking to this law group and even as I was speaking to them, I'm like, is this me talking?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because I literally said to them, I want to incorporate things like human design, intuition, oracle cards.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I want to integrate this into my practice, educated, trained in this stuff.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But I want to be able to do this within psychotherapy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I want you to imagine that you guys have been hired to come after my license for me being unethical and outside of my scope.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I want us to build an informed consent that's going to make you lose.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I want.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And they were very like, okay, this is a first.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because nothing and happens.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I wasn't in trouble.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't want to wait to get in trouble.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because I wanted to like get challenged, but like safely.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we met and I was paying attention to everything they did.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They were like, let's look at your
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[SPEAKER_00]: And we were looking at this very vague language.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, okay, well, tell me what that means because you guys are lawyers, like you guys interpret law.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And they told me something that really like kind of stuck with me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They said that like, this is a very vague statement.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it means it's up to your professional interpretation.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, yeah, but how do I know if I'm interpreting correctly?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And they said, you'll always interpret correctly if you have tangible, like,
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[SPEAKER_00]: Reflections of like how you took that interpretation and the action steps you then took So like my brain was kind of like, okay, what does that mean?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So instead of them actually telling me what the state laws meant They asked me to tell them what it meant based on how I was viewing it
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[SPEAKER_00]: So when I did that, most of the seats I was licensed in, when it came to scope of practice, it was very confusing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It would say the practice application of modalities, rooted in clinical theory, or it would say application of human behavior principles to work with individuals, families, couples, and groups, or it would say something like that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say, well,
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what could that mean?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I started to be like, oh, well, I thought about what I learned in human behavior, and I learned about theory, and I was like, okay, well, maybe it's saying what I'm getting is if we have a clinical justification, like a theoretical framework that can hold these modalities, regardless of what they are, you're staying within your scope of practice.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And they said,
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we went on this journey of me interpreting and then them challenging me to have a tangible proof of what that was.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And we went back and forth and back and forth.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then once we were done with that, they were like, all right, well, let's look at ethics.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We got to talk about transparency.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We got to talk about risks and benefits.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We got to talk about competency.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We have to prove all of these things in your informed consent to say that you've interpreted and you've done all the pieces that you were supposed to do based on the vague information that they gave you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I started building.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This whole framework on like, how do you tick the box off the very confusing language that is in the state boards?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So when I was done with myself though, I was like, just curious.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, well, what does the other states say?
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[SPEAKER_00]: What are the other boards say?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I was wow.
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[SPEAKER_00]: like it's not just social work.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just these three states.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's all 50 states.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's all professions.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, wow, like, there really isn't anything saying that we can't integrate and engage in integrative psychotherapy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we can't bring these things in as a tool.
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[SPEAKER_00]: As long as we're in this very vague scope container, which I have now made my professional interpretation of what that is.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I'm going to start teaching other people how to do this, because I wonder if there's more people like me that aren't just the conventional textbook therapist, but are an embodied practitioner and want to bring in the things that have helped me into my work with others.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Such work.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You are like amazing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I know when we first met, I was impressed with the degree to which you and the rigor, to which you have gone after this with the most difficult of structures, systematic structures that have been set up to keep everybody in the box.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I do agree with, we know we need the bumper rails, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise we have
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[SPEAKER_01]: coaches doing therapy, which is what we have a lot of right now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I believe we do, but those bumper rails are very limiting to what is healing, particularly because a lot of our healing right now requires ancestral healing and collective healing, which
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[SPEAKER_01]: are done in different ways that there's different approaches to that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So you have created a way for providers to really use that phrase in a way that matches and aligns with their theoretical orientation, but also their authentic alignment of who they are.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I teach it from a lens like, you know, a lot of therapists like to say like I'm an eclectic therapist, but I don't know if they really understand what that means.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a weight of saying like I do a lot of different things, but I can't actually tell you what those those different things are and how they have a clinical undertone as well.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, theory was something that was very hard for me to understand when I was in school and it was from the way it was taught to me and I had a really poor professor who really made me feel stupid about asking questions and really discouraged my curiosity in a lot of ways.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that happens a lot and it really set me back, I'm going to say about like ten years like her saying the thing is that she said to me when I was curious, like I was like
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[SPEAKER_00]: Outside of that little bit of school, no one talks about theory, no one teaches theory, no one talks about the different types of theory.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's no conversations going on about theory.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that was crazy to me because I was like, well, theories what's going to give us the container for us to hold the unique space to bring all these unique practices in.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And because people don't understand it,
17:32.516 --> 17:45.564
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of therapists think that theory is modalities, so they'll say, like, I'll say what's your theoretical framework, and they'll say Act, EMDR, DBT, and I'll say, well, those are approaches, those aren't theories, like, do you understand the belief system behind why those were built?
17:46.144 --> 17:48.286
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not their fault that they don't know, it wasn't taught.
17:49.106 --> 18:10.720
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so I don't, like, my big piece is authenticity, like, you, like, the version I am every step of the way, whether you see me on Instagram or listening to me here with my son, I'm the same person and it's taken me a long time to become that person and accept all those pieces of me, like, you know, the quirky, the one that curses, like, I'm sure I'll curse somewhere through here.
18:11.821 --> 18:13.862
[SPEAKER_00]: but like, it doesn't mean I'm on professional.
18:14.303 --> 18:18.805
[SPEAKER_00]: I can be a rebel and still be, you know, have authority on be really, really smart.
18:20.206 --> 18:20.647
[SPEAKER_00]: So like,
18:21.667 --> 18:26.991
[SPEAKER_00]: When I work with therapists, I don't just give them a bunch of theories and be like, hey, how do these sound?
18:27.052 --> 18:28.132
[SPEAKER_00]: Because all of them make sense?
18:28.673 --> 18:30.955
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you'll, I'll give you a hundred theories, you're all in Billy Gia.
18:31.755 --> 18:34.658
[SPEAKER_00]: But that doesn't mean that those are the essence of how you practice.
18:35.238 --> 18:41.924
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I do instead is I have therapists answer questions about their own transformative journey, their own experience that they've been through in life.
18:42.404 --> 18:45.347
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to understand how they view the world and how they got there.
18:45.947 --> 18:53.193
[SPEAKER_00]: and then what I do is I give them theories that match the way they view the world, because it's keeping them still in the driver's seat.
18:53.213 --> 18:55.616
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not me saying like this is how you should think.
18:56.116 --> 19:05.564
[SPEAKER_00]: It's me going, this is how you've always been thinking, I'm just now going to give you the scary clinical words that actually hold it so that you can see you were doing it right all long.
19:06.125 --> 19:07.526
[SPEAKER_00]: You just didn't have words for it.
19:07.942 --> 19:10.304
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're intuitively guided to the medicine.
19:10.764 --> 19:16.387
[SPEAKER_01]: And what are the medicines that people are guided to that you're seeing everybody stepping out of the box?
19:16.968 --> 19:30.336
[SPEAKER_00]: I work with therapists who integrate mediumship, past life for aggressions, energy work, emotional body code, belief code, reiki, there's induced after death communicate.
19:30.396 --> 19:35.400
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so many different approaches, like some that I'm still learning when people come to be like, oh, I'm trained in this,
19:37.021 --> 19:48.643
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never heard of that before, what I'd love to know about it, comprehensive resource, like there's just so many different approaches that everyone's kind of going off on their own and they found their way to this platform of a approach.
19:48.763 --> 19:51.524
[SPEAKER_00]: And everyone that comes in my program, they've done it for themselves.
19:51.724 --> 19:53.864
[SPEAKER_00]: They've learned this modality to heal themselves.
19:54.705 --> 19:58.665
[SPEAKER_00]: And now they're like, I want to bring this embodied version of me into the therapy room.
19:59.025 --> 19:59.826
[SPEAKER_00]: How can I do that?
20:00.266 --> 20:02.646
[SPEAKER_00]: So there are people like their therapists who've done the work.
20:07.027 --> 20:10.569
[SPEAKER_00]: These are the ones that want to move with integrity that want to do it safely.
20:11.389 --> 20:22.775
[SPEAKER_00]: I know our field gets a bad rep because if therapists are out here doing ridiculous things, but I want to make sure that any therapist that is doing this work, like I tell them you have to get work harder than the average.
20:22.936 --> 20:24.516
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we need to read your laws.
20:24.616 --> 20:28.378
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to write up containers for all these unique practices that you're bringing in.
20:28.899 --> 20:29.199
[SPEAKER_00]: Like,
20:29.759 --> 20:37.506
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no just randomly, oh, I'm going to say this thing without actually getting consent that a client agrees to it.
20:37.947 --> 20:46.414
[SPEAKER_00]: I've seen therapist get in trouble for randomly bringing up astrology and then someone saying, oh, that's pseudo science and you're pushing that on me, that's your values and reporting them to the board.
20:46.875 --> 20:49.097
[SPEAKER_00]: And getting the report to the board is a scariest thing.
20:49.557 --> 20:55.562
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you don't have an informed consent that talks about this stuff, that you're clear and you're marketing authentically,
20:56.363 --> 20:58.867
[SPEAKER_00]: you're going to find yourself buckling because you don't know what to do.
21:00.009 --> 21:01.692
[SPEAKER_00]: And that fear is so heavy.
21:02.193 --> 21:03.595
[SPEAKER_00]: So like let's get ahead of it.
21:03.956 --> 21:07.943
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're not in that paralyzing seat should something like this happen.
21:08.534 --> 21:25.842
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm navigating that somewhat in our field, looking at the work of Stan Graff, Peter Levine, the different providers who have understood the indigenous perspective of Shimana Keeling, and then developed practices that are based on those.
21:26.022 --> 21:34.706
[SPEAKER_01]: And then how do we talk about those in a way that honors indigenous background of those methodologies,
21:38.676 --> 21:43.298
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, when I tell, you know, there's a lot of individuals who are kind of in this integrative space.
21:43.358 --> 21:50.140
[SPEAKER_00]: And they'll say they will like to disguise modalities by using safer words.
21:50.440 --> 21:57.503
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, so instead of, you know, saying shamanic practices, maybe they'll say mindfulness, but they're really weren't engaging in shamanic practices.
21:57.723 --> 22:04.646
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do think there's a very fine line between like cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation, and I don't think you need to lie.
22:05.466 --> 22:16.530
[SPEAKER_00]: as long as you have a clinical container for why this deserves a space and cycle therapy and you can speak to it and your clients agree to it and you're trained in it and you're competent.
22:16.991 --> 22:27.775
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's no reason we have to hide these things and people, I was like, why works so hard to figure out what your theoretical framework is and build all this up and then hide.
22:28.655 --> 22:31.818
[SPEAKER_00]: What you're doing in practice when it's there's nothing saying you can't do it.
22:32.498 --> 22:37.763
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and well, I feel like we have two camps of people too.
22:37.783 --> 22:49.693
[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about one is the person who Goes to a healer and learns the modality and says I want to do this with my client and another who is a practitioner who is a natural healer.
22:49.714 --> 22:50.634
[SPEAKER_01]: By birth
22:52.696 --> 22:56.197
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so they were born as a healer, they've been a healer in other lifetimes.
22:56.637 --> 22:58.418
[SPEAKER_01]: They're waking up in this lifetime.
22:58.958 --> 23:01.299
[SPEAKER_01]: So it didn't come from learning something.
23:01.339 --> 23:03.259
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually just coming from within them.
23:04.439 --> 23:19.724
[SPEAKER_01]: And how do we find spaces for both of those to live together in a way that, yeah, allows them to do what they do without feeling like they need to prove themselves.
23:20.783 --> 23:44.017
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's a difference between like empowered moving and defending yourself and that's what I try to teach that a lot because I get attacks like every day like on social media There's someone like coming for me and it's you know at this point it's like thanks for boosting my algorithms Some more people can find me when you're calling me these horrible things online and at the same time I know these people aren't curious so they don't require any of my time
23:45.337 --> 23:57.231
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're curious, you might have a conversation, like I'm happy to discuss, but like the lack of curiosity and the level of shaming that happens among practitioners of the healing arts and whatever capacity is.
23:57.271 --> 23:58.012
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a little insane.
23:58.493 --> 24:01.937
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never seen people shamed people the way I've seen therapists do it.
24:02.838 --> 24:05.919
[SPEAKER_00]: especially to people who want to bring innovative approaches in.
24:07.219 --> 24:08.819
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're also very misinformed.
24:09.079 --> 24:14.421
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't like, I don't, I mean, I could bury people with a knowledge I have, like, I can really shut them up.
24:14.501 --> 24:18.381
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also like, well, they're not going to learn if I'm just clapping back at them.
24:18.902 --> 24:26.383
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, so I always like lead with questions, especially when people are like, oh, you know, it's unethical to integrate rakey into therapy.
24:26.403 --> 24:27.604
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, okay, well, can you show me
24:30.032 --> 24:34.813
[SPEAKER_00]: because you know ethics are important to me and I want to know that making sure that we're following a right line here.
24:34.833 --> 24:35.833
[SPEAKER_00]: So where did you read that?
24:35.913 --> 24:38.534
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, most people can't point to it because it's not written anywhere.
24:39.574 --> 24:43.495
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'll say like, okay, well, you know, they'll say like it's common knowledge.
24:43.515 --> 24:46.315
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, well, it's also common knowledge, not to think with your clients.
24:46.515 --> 24:49.216
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, you got to write that stuff down.
24:49.236 --> 24:54.037
[SPEAKER_01]: But boy, well, let's talk about some of you four myths that you talk about in the book.
24:55.317 --> 24:57.078
[SPEAKER_01]: that you you break down.
24:58.018 --> 24:59.819
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe we can mention each of those.
25:00.259 --> 25:09.983
[SPEAKER_01]: We have the myth that something is not ethical, which is what we're talking about already, right?
25:11.224 --> 25:15.285
[SPEAKER_01]: And that those who incorporate alternative healing
25:18.215 --> 25:32.747
[SPEAKER_01]: people don't know, even though I think what the definition is of complementary, healing, so maybe we can start with that one, and what it means, and that people who do this are unprofessional or uninformed.
25:33.528 --> 25:44.937
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so when I, so it's really hard to find a word to hold all of the unique practices, because some people consider them ways of life, other people consider
25:48.578 --> 25:50.940
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so hard to find a word for all of it.
25:50.980 --> 26:00.810
[SPEAKER_00]: So I find myself leaning towards unconventional and therapy, complementary and alternative, spiritual, energy-based, like, I don't know, all of it.
26:02.314 --> 26:07.819
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really really hard, but I always joke that I'm trying to speak fifth dimensional language and a third dimensional world.
26:07.859 --> 26:14.705
[SPEAKER_00]: So usually the term complementary and alternative medicine or practices or whatever is kind of holds bulk of them enough.
26:15.085 --> 26:16.687
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll use terms like that.
26:16.787 --> 26:21.151
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I say complementary, I mean, it's not replacing psychotherapy.
26:21.771 --> 26:26.633
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, when I'm working with therapist and like, we're not doing something and calling it therapy that it's not.
26:27.153 --> 26:29.174
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking about like, how can you integrate it in?
26:29.254 --> 26:33.636
[SPEAKER_00]: How can this be something that comes into the psychotherapy process?
26:34.697 --> 26:40.739
[SPEAKER_00]: Still working towards treatment goals, still aligned with your clients preferences and values, something that you're competent in.
26:40.759 --> 26:42.700
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the end of the day, we're still doing clinical work.
26:43.460 --> 26:47.222
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, that's what I mean about that ethical practice.
26:47.262 --> 26:49.083
[SPEAKER_00]: If you read any of the ethics codes,
26:50.219 --> 26:53.300
[SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about, are you competent in what you're doing?
26:53.461 --> 26:55.802
[SPEAKER_00]: So what training have you done?
26:56.342 --> 27:01.404
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, every state in every code defines this training a little differently, but they're all really vague.
27:01.844 --> 27:07.067
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's all about professional training, but professional training by who?
27:08.171 --> 27:09.232
[SPEAKER_00]: Does it need to be a therapist?
27:09.272 --> 27:10.533
[SPEAKER_00]: Does it need to be CE approved?
27:10.573 --> 27:11.715
[SPEAKER_00]: Does it, no, it doesn't.
27:11.875 --> 27:14.978
[SPEAKER_00]: It, some of them even says life experience.
27:14.998 --> 27:19.422
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to like look and be like, okay, what would constitute a level of competency?
27:20.243 --> 27:22.765
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be appropriate for how I want to bring these things in.
27:23.546 --> 27:26.588
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's clinical decision-making also, right?
27:26.968 --> 27:31.950
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, it's not like there's an international oracle card organization.
27:31.990 --> 27:35.172
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like this is the way that you use oracle cards.
27:35.712 --> 27:46.297
[SPEAKER_00]: But when it comes to rakey or past life regression or hypnosis, there's like a certain level of expectation that like you need to have this level of competency before you ever bring this in with another soul.
27:46.777 --> 27:47.558
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, don't do it.
27:48.238 --> 27:49.999
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I always say like,
27:50.519 --> 27:58.923
[SPEAKER_00]: Get enough training for the how much you're bringing in like that's going to be on you Could it be a three hour training happens in a day?
27:59.003 --> 28:01.024
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe could it be a eudemi course?
28:01.164 --> 28:04.265
[SPEAKER_00]: Also maybe could it be a life you know a three-year certification?
28:04.325 --> 28:15.730
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, yeah, like it really it really depends So competency is one piece and then transparency is another a lot of the more unique black sheep therapist I work with they are literally
28:16.973 --> 28:26.422
[SPEAKER_00]: They're on the outside of double Dutch just waiting for someone to say something spiritual, where then they can kind of unlock, okay, this is why I am, and I've Oracle cards and crystals, and all that stuff.
28:27.143 --> 28:28.404
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not really being transparent.
28:29.365 --> 28:32.708
[SPEAKER_00]: That's, you're holding it, just waiting for the safe space.
28:33.109 --> 28:35.931
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you're in therapy, you're supposed to model.
28:36.940 --> 28:38.280
[SPEAKER_00]: authenticity and holding.
28:38.360 --> 28:48.204
[SPEAKER_00]: So I always say, like, show people who you are, like, leave the crystals out if you have an awful, you know, let people ask, let them know who you are when you're marketing yourself.
28:48.604 --> 28:56.586
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you're marketing psychotherapy, but if you want to drop little, you know, I have, like, or a picture of me holding Oracle cards on my therapy site and I've had people book a call with me.
28:56.606 --> 28:58.487
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, I don't even, I didn't, I didn't read it.
28:58.827 --> 29:00.988
[SPEAKER_00]: I just saw that and it felt safe and I leaned in.
29:01.428 --> 29:03.729
[SPEAKER_00]: So you own your space, people can lean in
29:05.329 --> 29:11.671
[SPEAKER_00]: A big thing, a guy is like, well, Christian counselors are allowed to, okay, Christian counselors, they're supposed to be transparent.
29:11.691 --> 29:17.713
[SPEAKER_00]: They're supposed to market themselves as being Christian counselors, so that people can choose whether or not that feels safe or doesn't.
29:18.273 --> 29:22.894
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can't hide who you are, but I know most of us, again, whole-witch-room thing.
29:22.934 --> 29:25.675
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, if people see those, they're going to burn us at the state.
29:26.095 --> 29:29.476
[SPEAKER_00]: We are not in that lifetime anymore, but I do understand that those
29:33.958 --> 29:38.341
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they're just a whole sometimes but transparency, right?
29:38.361 --> 29:54.034
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have to tell our clients we have to discuss risks we have to discuss benefits like this is the expectation for ethical practice You know, so like are you doing that verbally and do you have it written down these unique styles that you're bringing in?
29:54.074 --> 29:56.336
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you really speak to that if you can't
29:57.217 --> 30:00.499
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying, go back and maybe think about how you can do that.
30:00.799 --> 30:02.901
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how do we stay within your scope of practice?
30:02.961 --> 30:04.101
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what does that mean?
30:04.121 --> 30:08.244
[SPEAKER_00]: Based on how your state defines it and, like, again, creating that clinical container?
30:08.264 --> 30:13.167
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's nothing in the epic sport that says you have to use empirically supported treatments, you have to use evidence-based practice.
30:13.427 --> 30:14.648
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not there, it's a stipulation.
30:14.668 --> 30:15.068
[SPEAKER_00]: I've read them.
30:15.589 --> 30:17.810
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was like, wow, okay.
30:18.351 --> 30:21.433
[SPEAKER_00]: So now that that's off the table, which everyone's spoon feeding down my throat.
30:22.533 --> 30:23.415
[SPEAKER_00]: What else could this look like?
30:23.855 --> 30:25.537
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that opens a lot of doors.
30:25.597 --> 30:40.777
[SPEAKER_01]: I think for people and what then do you see more and more people Creating courses with CEUs then to Provide I heard there was a Summit where someone presented on the Akashic Records at the summit
30:41.450 --> 30:44.612
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't a, well, I don't know if I know who that is.
30:44.792 --> 30:46.473
[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm thinking of the right person.
30:46.533 --> 30:51.536
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a social worker, LCSW Candice Rasa, I don't enforce it.
30:51.856 --> 30:52.316
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
30:52.457 --> 30:53.817
[SPEAKER_00]: And she did research on this.
30:53.957 --> 30:55.598
[SPEAKER_00]: She's a wonderful human being.
30:56.439 --> 31:02.462
[SPEAKER_00]: So educated, so smart and got a lot of, like, this is her baby, you know?
31:03.803 --> 31:24.644
[SPEAKER_00]: and she did research on looking at the mental health outcomes of integrating a caustic record so she did a mixed method study which hasn't been done before on a caustic record so she's the first one and she's got a i mean i don't know if the results are fully out yet or whatever from but what i was hearing these were looking really positive and she spoke at the like so she spoke at their conference um and i also spoke there too
31:25.794 --> 31:27.075
[SPEAKER_00]: so she did speak on them.
31:27.495 --> 31:29.536
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was able to get see.
31:29.556 --> 31:31.617
[SPEAKER_00]: You can get a lot of things CE approved.
31:31.637 --> 31:33.118
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a formula to follow.
31:33.138 --> 31:36.740
[SPEAKER_00]: It's making sure like, but there's some things honestly.
31:36.760 --> 31:41.843
[SPEAKER_00]: There's one person I know of that has a pathway for aggression course that's CE approved.
31:43.230 --> 31:44.271
[SPEAKER_00]: through NBCC.
31:44.491 --> 31:57.646
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm curious how she did it because I got denied on my training on past life regression because the organization said that it was not evidence based, which is another one of my myths that I'll get into, but like,
31:58.607 --> 32:02.628
[SPEAKER_00]: Evidence-based practice is a framework for decision-making.
32:02.728 --> 32:06.649
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean, was it vigorously studied and controlled groups or not?
32:06.729 --> 32:08.509
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, those are two very different things.
32:09.110 --> 32:10.910
[SPEAKER_00]: So I fought with this organization.
32:10.970 --> 32:15.391
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, back and forth, I was like, well, evidence-based practice means, is there research to support it?
32:15.551 --> 32:16.011
[SPEAKER_00]: I have it.
32:16.691 --> 32:19.392
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I discuss that people need to be competent in the screening?
32:19.552 --> 32:20.452
[SPEAKER_00]: I covered that.
32:21.092 --> 32:25.833
[SPEAKER_00]: And I covered that it needs to align with the client's preferences and values and getting informed consent.
32:29.354 --> 32:31.155
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they said, well, it's too controversial.
32:31.175 --> 32:32.876
[SPEAKER_00]: This was an APA reviewer.
32:33.416 --> 32:38.659
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, okay, well, in your APA code of ethics, there's a section called Unproven Practices.
32:38.879 --> 32:47.483
[SPEAKER_00]: You literally say, as long as you're discussing the benefits without over-promising, the risks, your component in it, like you're good to go.
32:47.843 --> 32:48.944
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm following that, too.
32:49.024 --> 32:50.224
[SPEAKER_00]: So why are you denying it?
32:50.705 --> 32:55.547
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the head of the organization, like literally emailed me and was like, we're allowed to say no if it's no.
32:55.807 --> 32:56.227
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's no.
32:58.094 --> 32:59.015
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean not pissed me off.
32:59.255 --> 33:04.982
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't done anything with that yet because I had to like put it down, but I was like, okay, now I got to deal with this crap at some point.
33:06.704 --> 33:09.788
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's just like so gatekeeping like I followed all your rules.
33:10.008 --> 33:14.534
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't even know your rules and it's still not being approved, but like we're starting to.
33:15.819 --> 33:20.362
[SPEAKER_00]: expand a little like are we talking you know there's certain expectations for CE courses but it is possible.
33:20.882 --> 33:26.705
[SPEAKER_01]: So it brings me to the next topic of the decolonization of mental health in general.
33:27.665 --> 33:40.412
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah and whether you feel there's a place here for talking about wellness in a different way talking about healing in a different way talking about mental health in a completely different way.
33:41.153 --> 33:41.373
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
33:41.935 --> 33:46.220
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say, I'm going to give my opinion on this, but my opinion is not universal truth.
33:46.620 --> 33:46.960
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
33:47.701 --> 33:59.633
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I have never done, I've never seen expansion come from rigidity ever, unless it's like completely breaking down things to nothing and then having a completely rebuild, which I don't really think we need to do.
34:00.805 --> 34:07.010
[SPEAKER_00]: whenever I would be in conversations around decolonizing mental health like it was always like us against them.
34:07.170 --> 34:09.552
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it was constantly this and I don't live here.
34:09.572 --> 34:11.653
[SPEAKER_00]: I never have.
34:12.033 --> 34:13.254
[SPEAKER_00]: But I understand it.
34:13.374 --> 34:15.616
[SPEAKER_00]: I understand the anger of frustration, the need.
34:17.518 --> 34:22.482
[SPEAKER_00]: But I look at these systems and I'm like, the way we get in is by infiltrating and growing out.
34:22.622 --> 34:24.684
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's my perspective.
34:25.244 --> 34:29.348
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, I think there's a way, we keep doing this is all we're going to keep getting.
34:29.928 --> 34:35.052
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because every time I would have these conversations, wonderful human being is talking about decolonizing mental health.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, yeah, but I worked hard for my license.
34:37.294 --> 34:38.275
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to stay in this field.
34:38.295 --> 34:40.177
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to, and I was like, how do we do this?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I would never get an answer, you know, there would be information on like different ways to to word things and voice things, you know, but when I was like, all right, we're talking law, we're talking regulatory expectations, we're talking ethics code like, how do we do this and that's where I couldn't get an answer.
34:57.323 --> 35:25.950
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I feel like the opening of the box to talk about that healing comes in many forms is a starting place because then we can start to redefine what dis-ease is, because we have a framework of what dis-eases, and then here's how you heal from that based on what we think dis-ease is, but it's kind of backwards.
35:28.010 --> 35:28.431
[SPEAKER_01]: healing.
35:29.872 --> 35:38.417
[SPEAKER_01]: If we take different principles to what healing is, then from there we can move towards what causes the disease in the first place.
35:39.038 --> 35:43.021
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's almost just like flipping it and going the other direction it feels like.
35:43.861 --> 35:55.989
[SPEAKER_01]: So my hope is, as we talk about in broader perspective of what is healing, it opens the door to the question of what is this
35:57.370 --> 36:12.437
[SPEAKER_01]: D-I-S slash E-A-S-E. And that then opens the door to moving out of the box of the the diagnosis and the frameworks that have been put in place.
36:12.477 --> 36:15.258
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's almost a going the other direction, right?
36:15.582 --> 36:22.108
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I completely, I mean, I grew with you where I hear more of the disused conversation is always in my spiritual groups.
36:22.188 --> 36:34.960
[SPEAKER_00]: It's never in like any of the conventional or academic spaces when people like that and it's always like And I think that's actually where I first heard that term was like many, many years ago and I was just like, wow, like,
36:35.961 --> 36:48.851
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it kind of shook me like kind of a week to look at it that way, but it requires a collective change, you know, like it's so hard and people have to be open to hearing things.
36:48.891 --> 36:50.012
[SPEAKER_00]: I just feel like this field.
36:51.012 --> 36:55.136
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never seen a field hate innovation so much than the therapy world.
36:55.656 --> 36:57.577
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, this is not working so well.
36:57.597 --> 36:59.139
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why everyone is over here.
36:59.159 --> 37:01.961
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean, do we think that the mental health state of the world is like,
37:02.953 --> 37:06.311
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to make you sing like I like why are we the so much?
37:08.421 --> 37:21.804
[SPEAKER_00]: and even like the impact on these empirically supported treatments and things that's nature, I'm just like, yeah, but we're seeing, yeah, we're seeing some positive results, but we're also seeing a whole group of people that don't get included in this and this doesn't work for them.
37:22.044 --> 37:23.444
[SPEAKER_00]: So why are we going to vote?
37:24.504 --> 37:31.786
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's part of the whole system that needs to shift because it's all serving one, one group rather than the whole.
37:32.446 --> 37:34.007
[SPEAKER_01]: And in this collective awakening,
37:36.803 --> 37:42.567
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a small piece in terms of the really going head-to-head with the governing bodies.
37:43.687 --> 37:45.909
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel there's still a place for therapists.
37:45.929 --> 37:47.870
[SPEAKER_01]: They have not been replaced by coaches.
37:48.950 --> 37:54.914
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, they're looking for those places where they can be more of themselves.
37:54.954 --> 38:00.598
[SPEAKER_01]: So you've really carved, I think, a safe community for people to come.
38:01.258 --> 38:04.580
[SPEAKER_01]: And more as a head, I believe, more as a head.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that this is, you know, the beginning.
38:08.263 --> 38:10.524
[SPEAKER_01]: There is one organization before we close.
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[SPEAKER_01]: One organization that you may or may not be involved in, that is creating a new governing body of intuitive clinicians.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I believe the intuitive person.
38:22.493 --> 38:24.494
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, can you tell us about that?
38:24.994 --> 38:26.495
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that a step in the direction?
38:27.582 --> 38:29.743
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the, um, I'm actually on that board.
38:30.383 --> 38:38.105
[SPEAKER_00]: So the intuitive clinicians council is a directory for, um, more holistic practitioners, but that are licensed practitioners.
38:38.145 --> 38:39.365
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not just therapists.
38:39.485 --> 38:44.406
[SPEAKER_00]: It can be, um, like, what's another like acupuncturist or things like that.
38:44.426 --> 38:51.568
[SPEAKER_00]: Like so it's just it's starting to be a directory that's growing, praising that vaguely of people who can talk about all the unique practice styles.
38:52.509 --> 38:58.193
[SPEAKER_00]: or approaches or ways of healing that they bring in, but they're all licensed practitioners also.
38:59.274 --> 39:14.945
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I love about what Joy has put together is there's a space, like if we don't have what's listed for what it is that you do, like you can absolutely submit that you've been trained in it, give us, give them a copy of that, and put that on your,
39:15.766 --> 39:16.147
[SPEAKER_00]: on your site.
39:16.167 --> 39:18.869
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, not just like, okay, let's click all these boxes.
39:18.929 --> 39:20.711
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we try to make a comprehensive list.
39:20.751 --> 39:26.898
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we worked a long time trying to be like, okay, but then there's so many ways of healing that we don't know about yet.
39:26.918 --> 39:28.559
[SPEAKER_00]: So people are giving us new, um,
39:29.496 --> 39:33.098
[SPEAKER_00]: new, you know, containers of something like, hey, but this, too, and this, too.
39:33.598 --> 39:35.540
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's always growing that list.
39:35.620 --> 39:47.326
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a really, I know, they're trying to make it a very inclusive space for clinical practitioners, or licensed, but also, and do the both-and, and their work.
39:47.366 --> 39:47.767
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
39:48.487 --> 39:49.007
[SPEAKER_00]: great.
39:49.027 --> 39:54.870
[SPEAKER_01]: So we'll put a link in the show notes to that organization as well as your book and your community.
39:55.230 --> 40:01.193
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there anything as we close that would be helpful for our audience to know about in terms of what you're offering or to find you?
40:01.213 --> 40:10.958
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you can find me at the black sheep guide.com, the black sheep therapist.com apparently was taken, but I'm still trying to get my hands on it.
40:12.300 --> 40:25.614
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have both a free Facebook community, but I also have a paid intentional community that's like $14 a month where we do four trainings a month at minimum, where we do a community circle.
40:25.694 --> 40:29.137
[SPEAKER_00]: We also have someone coming to do a astrology read for a little month ahead.
40:29.898 --> 40:33.440
[SPEAKER_00]: integrative documentation circle if you're questioning like how do I document this?
40:34.600 --> 40:41.844
[SPEAKER_00]: And also I do like a different training topics every month like the one I'm doing this Thursday is like what's the difference between therapy and coaching and understanding?
40:42.445 --> 40:52.510
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not one of those people so you got to pick either one like if you want to pick both cool but there's also expectations and documentation that you need to place to protect yourself your business all these things if you're going to do both.
40:53.589 --> 40:54.090
[SPEAKER_00]: just fine.
40:54.590 --> 40:56.973
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like so just like you don't have to pick one box.
40:58.775 --> 41:12.430
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah and I have the Innovative Practitioner Accelerator Program where I literally I hand walk therapists through like let's look at your state board, let's build the language that you need, it's very personalized process.
41:13.411 --> 41:17.956
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think there's one template that exists that is going to cover one clinician.
41:17.976 --> 41:23.742
[SPEAKER_00]: People ask me for them all the time, like, just give me a template, and it's so nuanced.
41:24.222 --> 41:26.624
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't just give you a template, because I'm going to make you miss something.
41:27.225 --> 41:31.729
[SPEAKER_00]: And every day, you have to look at your state board, you've got to know how to read this stuff.
41:32.270 --> 41:34.412
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to personalize how you integrate your work.
41:35.413 --> 41:43.177
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't do all this and check those little random things that are in these state boards, you're going to find yourself in trouble and that's not how people leave my hands.
41:43.698 --> 42:00.347
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it's all about making sure everything is personalized to the unique practitioner that I get the privilege to work with so that they can go and do the healing work that they want to without feeling like they have to hang up a piece of themselves every time they step into the therapy room.
42:01.527 --> 42:02.127
[SPEAKER_01]: beautiful.
42:02.427 --> 42:05.628
[SPEAKER_01]: And the book itself is called The Black Sheep Therapist.
42:06.729 --> 42:07.689
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's out now.
42:08.329 --> 42:09.530
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a good read.
42:10.270 --> 42:14.051
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope we get to bring you into a share your knowledge with our community.
42:14.191 --> 42:17.412
[SPEAKER_01]: And and some of the things that you've seen along the way.
42:17.492 --> 42:19.033
[SPEAKER_01]: Sounds like you've seen a lot.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I appreciate you doing this.
42:22.474 --> 42:23.775
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going out this path.
42:23.995 --> 42:28.316
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm taking this a little step further to get Masters and Legal Studies.
42:28.336 --> 42:29.076
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I want to
42:31.804 --> 42:32.945
[SPEAKER_00]: great.
42:33.525 --> 42:35.948
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, good on you, Tina, good on you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much for sharing this time with us.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's been a pleasure and I hope that everyone who is a practitioner who's sitting on the fence right now trying to decide, you know, they're so excited about going
42:56.585 --> 43:01.150
[SPEAKER_01]: spiritual exploration and trying to decide, you know, what they do with their license.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So Tina is a resource for you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I hope you reach out to her.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I thank you for spending time with us today.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My absolute pleasure.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for being a part of the transformative harmonics community.
43:14.486 --> 43:16.468
[SPEAKER_01]: If this episode resonated with you,
43:16.931 --> 43:20.372
[SPEAKER_01]: Please subscribe, share the episode, and leave a review.
43:21.052 --> 43:29.195
[SPEAKER_01]: This helps more people discover these conversations around sound, embodiment, consciousness, and healing to explore this work more deeply.
43:29.575 --> 43:36.237
[SPEAKER_01]: Visit transformativehermonics.com, where you can learn more about the wisdom school and our membership community.
43:36.957 --> 43:55.041
[SPEAKER_01]: The wisdom school brings together modern science, ancient wisdom, and embodied practices to support personal transformation and spiritual growth through the body, nervous system, and the relational pathways that influence how we connect to ourselves, each other, and the world around us.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can also find us on Instagram, Substack, and soon, in-site timer.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My handle is Paula, Scatalone, or Transformative Hermonics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Until next time, take good care and thank you for being part of the Transformative Hermonics community.