Why Principals Who Confuse Social Trust Lose Student Outcomes ft. Lynsy Oswald | Transformational Educators Ep. 35

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We talked a lot about trust, like superficial trust.
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We have a staff that they love each other, they want to spend time together, go to dinner together.
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We have some staff that's on a skee ball league together.
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They really care about each other, like as people, but we talked about that we have to really dig into what that looks like professionally.
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Because it's one thing to trust somebody as a person, but then do you really trust them professionally?
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And are you comfortable sending the students in your class to their reading lesson?
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That's Lindsay Oswald, former principal of Hamilton Elementary and now coordinator for K-12 instructional programs in the Moline Cole Valley School District.
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She led Hamilton to its highest math map scores in the building's 11-year history.
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By bridging the gap between social and professional trust, she helped drive stronger outcomes by creating a community for students to thrive.
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And to do that, I think we just have to be honest and direct with each other.
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The more I've done this, the more I've realized that just shows people that you love and care about them and you want them to be the best version of themselves.
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In this episode, you'll learn why confusing social trust with professional trust can lead to stagnation and how embedding yourself in planning time and pure walkthroughs closes gaps.
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I'm Dr.
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Matthew Flippin, and this is Transformational Educators.
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Give us a picture of is it Moline, Illinois, and Hamilton Elementary.
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Tell us what's what did that look like when you first stepped in.
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Yeah, I would love, I would love to share.
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So I actually went to school in Moline.
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Um I was a student at Hamilton, which I am now the principal of.
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So that's very exciting.
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My life very much came full circle.
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We here at Hamilton have we have about 600 kids, 575 to 600.
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Um our fruit free and reduced lunch rate is just under um 60%.
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So um very diverse population, lots of different um students coming from lots of different backgrounds.
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Um, we have some students that's parents are doctors and attorneys and things, and then we have other students that um currently live in a hotel um in our neighborhood, or uh, we also have a homeless shelter um not far from here, and um, they come from there as well.
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So we are very diverse, um, which is one of the things that I love most about our school.
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Yeah.
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No, that's uh, you know, about five years ago when we were kind of starting uh Graceland and I was visiting with uh educators, asking them about, hey, what's different?
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What's changed in 20 years?
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You know, you mentioned the thing about I will call them the homeless or near homeless population, which is uh, I think reported now to be about 10% of our children nationwide are in some kind of homeless situation.
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So that is that is challenging.
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Uh you know, it's great to hear that you even recognize that and know that.
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But yeah, so so tell us about uh about Hamilton.
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When you went to step in uh to the role, I think you mentioned there was a little bit of a restart or a new start that happened.
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Yes.
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Even though this is where you went as a child, yes, it wasn't the same.
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Yes.
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This building used to be about 100 students, um, and they closed it 12 years ago and um rebuilt it.
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So we added a $17.9 million addition onto our building.
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Um, and so it went from a building of about 120 to 600.
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Um, and so when we reopened Hamilton, I um became the assistant principal and I did that for six years and then became the principal um for the past five years.
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You know, and when you reopened, did you start with hiring a whole new staff at that point?
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We did.
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So um very exciting opportunity as a new administrator.
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We um had um everybody had to apply to come.
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So if you were in a building that was closing, you were guaranteed a job in our district, but not necessarily at Hamilton.
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Um, and so everybody applied to come and fill those positions.
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Um, it was a school that is built around staff collaboration.
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So we have garage doors that come up throughout the day.
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Um, it's very much a, we call it a fishbowl, you know, it's very open opportunities for, you know, people to collaborate and students to collaborate.
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It's a really fun, um, bright, airy environment.
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Um, and so we knew that that wasn't necessarily something that maybe everybody was looking for.
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Um, and so you applied to come and then we got to hire teams.
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So if you applied to come over, you were applying to be a teacher.
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And then we, um, the principal and I were able to kind of build those teams um based on strengths and challenges of different people.
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Um, and so it was kind of like building a baseball team.
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I kind of related to that.
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It was fun to just, you know, find the positions that work for people and um blending staff from lots of different schools in the um the community, which is really exciting, and um just fun to kind of have an identity, a new identity, and um build around that.
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So um very thankful for that opportunity.
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Oh, yeah.
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You know, I uh Lindsay, when we look at um schools that are struggling, you know, sometimes you'll hear administrators say, wow, if I could just replace all my staff, that would solve all my problems.
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I don't think necessarily hiring a whole new staff automatically solves all the challenges of this.
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No, it did not do that.
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It it definitely um in so many ways it was amazing, right?
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But it it brings new new challenges.
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Um again, you're bringing culture from lots of different buildings.
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And and also we were coming from a place of principal.
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And I was a former teacher at this school and he was the principal there.
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And so we already had a relationship um, you know, with some of the staff members that were coming from that school.
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And so just really being intentional about um not making it like an us moving together and then other people being outsiders coming in and building a culture that was new and fresh and and not trying to like, you know, um tie it to tie it to the old school that we were closing.
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So we have really small schools in our community.
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Most of the schools here are one or two section buildings.
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This is the first time we opened a four-section elementary school.
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Um, and so that also brought challenges.
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Um, it was um really exciting, but we definitely had to work on um, I guess you could call like chain of commands and not in a disrespectful way, but just kind of knowing like who you're gonna report to and what this person is going to do.
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I was the first assistant principal at the elementary level.
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And so what does that look like, you know, um assistant principal versus principal and just making sure that him and I were on the same page.
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And um, so there was definitely new challenges, but um, so many strengths, and again, very thankful for that.
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Yes.
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Well, you're a very positive person.
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So I know you you saw all the good and also felt with the challenge.
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What did you see as some of the biggest barriers that were preventing teachers from from working together initially?
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So we were able to build in common planning time for every grade level, and that was huge and something we hadn't been able to do in the past in these smaller buildings.
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So um our specialists had kind of come and go out of different buildings across the district.
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And so it wasn't necessarily that first grade was both going to have planning time from eight to eight forty-five in former schools.
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We were able to do that.
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So our specialists are here almost full time, and so um our teachers have common planning time four days a week.
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So every second grade classroom goes to a special from nine to nine forty five, for example.
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And so giving the opportunity for those teachers to have that common planning time and then to use that common planning time, right?
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And so just kind of setting up a structure.
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Um, so once a week I attend common planning.
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Um, our instructional coaches attended as well.
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Um, and so it's set up, it's built in the schedule, it's part of our culture now.
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And we all sit down and we talk about, you know, what's gonna happen um the following week, what the lesson is, what the assessment's gonna look like, what the objective is.
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And um, again, that's something that I'm a part of and I think is important.
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So I know what's going on in the classroom.
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Um, and the instructional coaches are there as well.
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Um, some of our teachers, you know, some of the grade levels meet more than once a week.
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Again, they have four days that they can meet, but we um we go once a week.
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And so they know that on Tuesdays we're gonna be at their planning time.
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And um, it's been very beneficial for the building, but it's also been helpful for me.
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Um, I found that I get less emails, less questions throughout the week because they know that I'm coming on Tuesday and they can ask their questions then.
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And so um it's kind of been a multi-purpose um thing that's I think helped out in both ways.
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But I just have a better understanding of what's happening in the classroom after being there.
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Hey, educators, I hope you're enjoying this conversation.
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At Graceland University, we believe real change in education starts with compassionate leadership and practical support.
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That's why we share stories like this.
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If something in today's episode spoke to you, maybe about your purpose, your next step, or how you can make a bigger impact, I invite you to explore how Graceland walks alongside educators through degree programs and strategic partnerships.
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Scan the QR code on screen or follow the link in the show notes to learn more.
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Now let's get back to the episode.
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Generating time for collaboration is kind of, I would call that step one.
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Yes, right.
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100%, yes.
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That that intentional structure that you did to make that happen.
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Now, that doesn't necessarily mean people collaborate coming together.
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So, what what did you do to foster, I'll call it like deeper collaboration, which which requires a level of trust vulnerability.
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Yeah.
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Um, so we have really hard conversations, and that's something that I've encouraged here at Hamilton.
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I think that um we've talked a lot about trust and just, you know, that like superficial trust.
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We have a staff that they they love each other, they you know, want to spend time together, you know, go to dinner together.
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We have some staff that's on a skee ball league together, we, you know, have some staff that's in a volleyball league together, and and so they really care about each other like as people.
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But we talked about that we have to really dig into like what that looks like professionally.
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Because it's one thing to trust somebody as a person, like and like them.
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And but then do you really trust them professionally?
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And are you comfortable sending your, you know, the students in your class to their reading lesson?
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And are you comfortable um, because that's a whole the professional trust is a whole different thing.
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And so really building that professional trust um is something and and again, having tough conversations.
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I don't want a tough conversation or I don't want the conversation to happen the parking lot.
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Let's have it right now.
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How are you feeling?
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Um, and so bringing people into that conversation, like, okay, so how are you going to do that?
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What am I missing?
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What struggles is that gonna bring?
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And and just opening that up and um respecting each other enough to have those tough conversations together, I think is something that um we've worked really hard on.
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What's an example of a tough conversation?
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Oh, I mean, I've I have a lot of tough conversations.
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I just recently had um a tough conversation with um one of our newer teachers.
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You know, I'm transitioning, as you mentioned, to a different position and um just sat down with that person and talked a little bit about um this person that wants to have a future in administration and and um had some um concerns about some of the things this year and just wanted to touch base and and coach him through some of those and um and kind of make sure that he knew some things that I think he needed to work on for next school year.
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And I've just found that I the more direct I am, the better, right?
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And so I think that like there's again that mutual respect.
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And I want them to do the same with me.
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And so um just I I I am just honest with people and um, you know, I ask questions and I and I want to meet them where they are, but I think that one of our goals is to all get better professionally and um to do that.
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I think we just have to be honest and direct with each other.
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And um, and so I think the the more I've done this, the more I've realized that um that just shows people that you love and care about them and you want them to be the best version of themselves.
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Yeah.
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I think about, you know, that sometimes there's a there's what I think I've communicated as an expectation, and then there's like how that actually gets executed, and you're like, okay, well, I could start with maybe I didn't communicate the expectation clearer, but let me recommunicate.
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Hey, here's the expectation, here's what I see as the gap.
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Um, and so that it's not a you're a bad person, it's really a it's a behavior-based uh discussion.
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Is that is that yes, agree.
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And then I think just giving them the time and the resources and the space to do that and then following back up with them.
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Like my expectation is that this is going to happen and I need this to happen, and and then checking back the next week, how did it go?
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What can I do to support you?
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Um, and so I mean, the follow-through on that I think is is good.
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But um, yeah, I just think having trust and just knowing that I'm I'm a former coach, a former athlete.
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And so I think that I naturally just coach people um because I want them to be the best versions of themselves.
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And um, you know, similar, we've had uh, you know, a couple staff members that I've moved to different positions in the building.
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And um, you know, some of them maybe weren't super excited at first about it, but then have come back later and said, thank you so much.
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Like I found my love for teaching again.
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And um, I just really appreciate you, you know, seeing that in me before I saw that in myself.
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And um, and so ultimately I just, you know, I want what's best for people.
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And I think that sometimes I just have to make those tough decisions and have tough conversations and um and they have to trust that I'm doing it because I care about them and I want what's best for them.
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Yeah, balanced with want what's best for children in the community.
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And what oh yes, yeah.
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What sport did you play, Lindsay?
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What was your sport?
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I played softball.
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Well, I was gonna say I bet it was softball because you used the baseball analogy of having the right people on your on your team, which I love that my daughter played uh played softball for a long time as well.
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So she switched to volleyball, which I loved indoor volleyball.
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So so yeah, yeah.
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I mean, I and I think you know, the idea of coaching is such an important skill for for leaders, whether you're the principal or the you know, elite teacher, uh, but this idea of not making it personal.
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I also find sometimes that leaders they they see the mismatch in as expectations, but they wait.
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And that waiting can almost build resentment of like, oh, this still isn't being done.
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I was trying to give you another chance.
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And I really probably need to check myself on did I communicate clearly the expectation.
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So I think the the faster we reset expectations, the better.
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So, so I know you also have some special training.
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Tell us a little bit about that and how that fits into this idea of collaboration, cooperative learning.
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Yeah, so I am a national trainer for um Kagan Cooperative Learning.
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Um, it's the work that Dr.
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Spencer Kagan has done.
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Um he's in um San Clemente, California, is the headquarters.
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Um during the school year, I'm a principal.
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During the summer, I travel around and train other educators.
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And um, I always say I it's like the best of both worlds for me.
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Um and so it's fun to go to other places and learn about other education systems and just work with teachers and principals.
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Um, and so yes, so we are um fully trained here in our district and um our staff is fully trained.
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We have Kagan coaches in our building that help support our instructional coaches are are trained in Kagan as well now.
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And um, and so we have built a collaborative environment, and our goal is that all students are engaged and on the hook and um have equal status in their classroom, and um it's really fun to see.
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Yes, outstanding.
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I love that.
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I love that.
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So uh we didn't we didn't touch on this initially, but from a from a performance standpoint, what did the school like when it was kind of first reformed and started?
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And then how did things progress as you started to shift right people into the right positions and got people on the same page?
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What did that journey look like?
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Yeah, it you know, it's been really fun to kind of ride that wave.
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Obviously, during COVID, we took a little dip, um, a bigger dip than we would have liked, um, like most.
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Um we are currently we've surpassed our map um math score since we opened the building 11 years ago.
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Our um writ score has continued to go up, which has been really exciting.
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Um, again, a little dip during COVID, um, but now higher than it's ever been.
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So that trend has gone up, um, which is really exciting.
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We've worked really hard on that.
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Um, our reading scores took a bigger dip during COVID than math, unfortunately.
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You know, the majority of schools in the nation saw.
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Um, and we're continuing to try, we're almost to our pre-reading writ score.
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We're one point away.
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Um, and so we're so, so close to getting back to where we were before COVID.
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But that has been um a challenge for our building and something we're working really hard on.
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We um we had a lot of kids um see a lot of dip in their reading um during that time.
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So um, but overall, like I said, our map scores have continued to trend up.
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We actually received a model school designation um for um from H and H um HMH model schools.
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Um, and so we got to go present um on that last year, which is really exciting.
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And we have a great school.
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So I'm very thankful for that.
00:16:57.329 --> 00:17:01.009
We have excellent educators and um our parents are very supportive.
00:17:01.009 --> 00:17:06.210
We have a community that supports, you know, public education and um supports us, which is really great.
00:17:06.210 --> 00:17:08.610
And um, so I'm thankful for all of those things.
00:17:08.850 --> 00:17:15.250
Yeah, so and I would think that this cooperative collaboration model also has an impact on retention.
00:17:15.250 --> 00:17:17.329
Have you seen that be true as well?
00:17:17.650 --> 00:17:21.410
Yeah, no, we have a staff that stays, which I'm very thankful for.
00:17:21.410 --> 00:17:24.529
Um we, you know, rarely have somebody leave.
00:17:24.529 --> 00:17:28.289
And if they do leave, it's for a you know, different opportunity, maybe a better opportunity.
00:17:28.289 --> 00:17:33.650
One of our teachers is gonna move on to be an instructional coach in another building, which is very excited for them.
00:17:33.650 --> 00:17:38.450
Um, other than a retirement here and there, we um we aren't hiring a lot of staff.
00:17:38.450 --> 00:17:42.450
So um, yeah, our teachers they stay and they, you know, like what's happening.
00:17:42.450 --> 00:17:45.809
We have a very overachieving staff, which I love about them.
00:17:45.809 --> 00:17:51.569
Um, they have high expectations for themselves and their students and each other and me and all of those things.
00:17:51.569 --> 00:18:04.049
Um, and so that's one of I think my advice would be to um, you know, new administrators and new principals would just be to hire great people because they will make your job a lot easier and um it's fun to work with them.
00:18:04.289 --> 00:18:08.930
Yeah, hire great people and when you realize you haven't, don't be afraid to to make make the change.
00:18:08.930 --> 00:18:17.250
Because I because you know, I mean, Lindsay, your your story, your first of all, your school isn't uh isn't uh has 60% free and reduced lunch.
00:18:17.250 --> 00:18:19.009
I just want to restate that.
00:18:19.009 --> 00:18:29.569
Uh and yet given that you still have uh well-performing students and you have a staff that stays, and that is not what is most commonly found.
00:18:29.569 --> 00:18:43.809
And so it obviously there's some approach about care for people, expectations, collaborative environment that have created a place where even though it might be challenging at times, um, people stay with it.
00:18:43.809 --> 00:18:45.889
And uh so that's well done.
00:18:45.889 --> 00:18:47.809
I can see why you've been promoted.
00:18:48.129 --> 00:18:59.089
I think that um, you know, I've I've learned a lot in 11 years, and I think more than anything, just um my goal is to take care of teachers and give them the resources that they need so that they can take care of kids.
00:18:59.089 --> 00:19:09.970
And um, and uh I've worked really hard at I really un you know, thankfully really have to say no if they're requesting something, if they're really looking for, you know, curriculum or books or something.
00:19:09.970 --> 00:19:13.970
I I try to find a way to make it happen or professional development and things like that.
00:19:13.970 --> 00:19:21.649
Um, because I just like I said, I have a staff that's in, you know, they're overachievers and I want to give them every opportunity to be successful.
00:19:21.809 --> 00:19:26.690
So you know, we uh we talk about um, you know, our why often, right?
00:19:26.690 --> 00:19:27.809
What's what's your why?
00:19:27.809 --> 00:19:35.730
And and for me, I always think about a real specific child, you know, is my kind of persona of, you know, my my why.
00:19:35.730 --> 00:19:47.569
Uh is there is there a a story or about a child or or a situation where when you think, what is what is my why that I put in all the effort at Hamilton that I did uh that stands out?
00:19:47.809 --> 00:19:49.329
I'm actually fostering right now.
00:19:49.329 --> 00:19:52.450
Um my husband and I are fostering a first grader here at Hamilton.
00:19:52.450 --> 00:19:57.490
So um last year um she needed a safe place to go and she's with my husband and I now.
00:19:57.490 --> 00:19:59.809
So she is currently my why for sure.
00:19:59.809 --> 00:20:04.289
Um, and I want Hamilton and the schools in willing to be the best, you know, for her.
00:20:04.289 --> 00:20:07.170
Um, and so yeah, she she's definitely my wife.
00:20:07.410 --> 00:20:07.889
Fantastic.
00:20:07.889 --> 00:20:09.490
Yeah, thanks for sharing that, Lindsay.
00:20:09.490 --> 00:20:12.049
We are adoptive, adoptive parents ourselves.
00:20:12.049 --> 00:20:15.809
I always think about great teachers have an adoptive heart.
00:20:15.809 --> 00:20:20.210
They always say, my children instead of these kids.
00:20:20.210 --> 00:20:24.849
And uh and it's that love, that true love for uh children.
00:20:24.849 --> 00:20:34.930
You know, we all even adults and children, you know, we we really want to be known and loved and and valued for the purpose, you know, and and involved in purpose.
00:20:34.930 --> 00:20:38.129
So um really grateful for you and your husband's step.
00:20:38.690 --> 00:20:39.170
Yeah, thank you.
00:20:39.170 --> 00:20:41.490
It's it's been really, really good, and she's great.
00:20:41.490 --> 00:20:45.730
So she's keeping us young and um, you know, our house is a lot.
00:20:45.730 --> 00:20:50.049
We were at we empty nested for a year and a half and then she came into the picture.
00:20:50.049 --> 00:20:53.490
So we went from a really quiet house to a really loud house.
00:20:53.730 --> 00:21:15.490
So if you could share uh with a new administrator, and you probably did this because you just handed your your role to someone else, you know, if there's one technique on the technique side, you know, as practical as you could get down, if there's one technique I would say, hey, do this to really continue this um collaboration, cooperation, what would that, what would that be?
00:21:15.809 --> 00:21:19.329
So we um have implemented walkthroughs in our building.
00:21:19.329 --> 00:21:27.889
Um and so our um SIB goal for last year, this past year, was that every teacher get in another um teacher's classroom this year and do a walkthrough.
00:21:27.889 --> 00:21:28.930
Um they're intentional.
00:21:28.930 --> 00:21:33.410
We use um rubrics, rigor rubrics um from model schools.
00:21:33.410 --> 00:21:36.369
Um and um the work that we've done with um Dr.
00:21:36.369 --> 00:21:40.769
Thornell, which I know I think he's been on here previously, um, we're doing a lot of work with him.
00:21:40.769 --> 00:21:49.730
And so um the teachers have said over and over again that walking through other classrooms and you know being intentional about what they're seeing has been the most impactful.
00:21:49.730 --> 00:21:52.210
And so we're gonna continue that for next year.
00:21:52.210 --> 00:21:58.529
Um, we're adopting, or they're gonna continue it, and I'm gonna um help support it from a little bit further away.
00:21:58.529 --> 00:22:04.289
Um, and um the it's gonna be the focus is gonna be on our new ELA curriculum that we're implementing.
00:22:04.289 --> 00:22:09.649
Um we're also gonna tie in some of those cooperative learning structures and looking for, you know, some of that as well.
00:22:09.649 --> 00:22:13.329
Um and so they're just they're excited to continue to be in each other's classroom.
00:22:13.329 --> 00:22:22.450
And I think again, that's part of that, you know, uh collaborative practice and um and not being afraid to, you know, share new ideas and take risks and and all of those things.
00:22:22.769 --> 00:22:27.089
There's a specific uh technique called trust-based observations.
00:22:27.089 --> 00:22:29.809
Gentleman that wrote a book about it, I'll I'll send it to you.
00:22:29.809 --> 00:22:41.649
But um versus observation versus evaluation and just making a clear distinction between what's happening, the observation is that kind of coaching opportunity.
00:22:41.649 --> 00:22:46.210
Um, but the way to do that that just actually takes trust to a deeper level.
00:22:46.210 --> 00:22:48.690
Um, so yeah, love to share that with you because it sounds a lot.
00:22:49.329 --> 00:22:49.730
I would love that.
00:22:49.730 --> 00:23:01.089
And and to go along with what I was talking about earlier, yes, like building that trust of not just I like you um and I think you're a nice person and I want to play volleyball with you after school, but like I really trust what you're doing instructionally.
00:23:01.089 --> 00:23:09.569
And um, I'm gonna send my kids to your class for reading group because I trust that they're in good hands and you know that that you're um a solid um instructor.
00:23:09.730 --> 00:23:11.170
So yes, absolutely.
00:23:11.170 --> 00:23:11.649
I love it.
00:23:11.649 --> 00:23:12.129
I love it.
00:23:12.129 --> 00:23:13.889
Well, this has been wonderful, Lindsay.
00:23:13.889 --> 00:23:18.369
I I'd love for our audience to be able to follow and connect, connect with you.
00:23:18.369 --> 00:23:20.450
Also, think you've written a couple books as well.
00:23:20.769 --> 00:23:25.730
Wrote a couple of books for Kagan Cooperative Learning on classroom management and social skills.
00:23:25.730 --> 00:23:31.809
Um, and so that's out there on the Kagan Cooperative Learning website um with my um instructional coach and our school counselor.
00:23:31.970 --> 00:23:32.609
So Okay.
00:23:32.609 --> 00:23:39.089
So not only can you follow Lindsay on LinkedIn and other social, but you can even hire her as a consultant.
00:23:40.450 --> 00:23:41.490
Yes, yes.
00:23:41.730 --> 00:23:42.529
That's fantastic.
00:23:42.529 --> 00:23:45.250
Well, thanks so much, uh Lindsay, for being on today's show.
00:23:45.490 --> 00:23:45.809
Yeah, definitely.
00:23:45.809 --> 00:23:46.849
It was awesome to connect.
00:23:46.849 --> 00:23:47.889
Thank you for connecting.
00:23:48.129 --> 00:23:48.529
Yes.
00:23:48.529 --> 00:23:53.889
Well, if you found today's episode valuable, as I did, please share it with a colleague or educator who would benefit.
00:23:53.889 --> 00:23:58.930
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00:23:58.930 --> 00:24:05.569
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00:24:05.569 --> 00:24:12.849
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00:24:12.849 --> 00:24:16.450
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00:24:16.450 --> 00:24:22.049
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