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[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, this is Paulair, and you're listening to This Week in Skating.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to This Week in Skating, the weekly podcast bringing you the latest news from the world of figure skating.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Here are your hosts, Daphne, Gina, and Matteo.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Before we begin, this episode discusses bullying, mental health and suicide.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Listener discretion is advised.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Subtember is suicide prevention month.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Today we are joined by Canadian Ice Deanser Paul Ayer.
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[SPEAKER_03]: On the ice, Paul is a two-time Canadian national bronze medalist and world competitor.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But off the ice, Paul has experienced bullying, mental health struggles, and suicidal thoughts.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Last week, Paul had the courage to share his story with Skate Canada and we are honored to have him here to share his story with us.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we want to welcome Paul to this week in skating.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, thank you so much for having me on here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really excited to talk about this topic now that it's out for the world to see it on my socials.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the more we can spread the word, the better.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah definitely.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I really commend you for being courageous to come forward and talk about this difficult topic.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The more this is talked about, the more it normalizes talking about it, so maybe people would be more inclined to seek out help versus trying to manage it themselves
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[SPEAKER_02]: and I commend you for being a role model for coming forward and speaking about it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's something that goes on in skating a lot more than what we hear about.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's become a more common for skaters who talk about mental health issues, but we need more people to feel comfortable to come forward.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I completely agree with that statement.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Not only as the person that was experiencing that, but also as the listener.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If I hadn't gone through what I have experienced then has a listener, I wouldn't really know what to say.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'd be like a sensitive topic and I wouldn't want to mess up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So often times I find people just try to avoid the subject just to not say the wrong thing and then they're worried
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[SPEAKER_01]: that they kind of made it worse.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When really all you need to do is be there to listen.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We'll take that stigma away from not only speaking out about it, but also being able to just hear someone out on a topic that you don't actually understand fully because maybe you're fortunate enough to not experience it, but just listening does make a difference for anyone.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Now for people who haven't read your skate, Canada article yet, can you talk to us about this bullying you experienced as a teenager?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Can you just kind of share what happened, basically?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so living in Calgary, Alberta, before I moved out here to Montreal for skating, but I started skating around grade five, and then into grade six, but in grade five, I was going to a elementary school, which usually ends in grade six at West.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Normally the kids after grade six move into junior high for grade seven eight nine, however, at this particular school that I was going to, I decided to switch early so you could switch one year before so you go six seven eight nine and.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because of that I switched schools without basically my entire class that I had grown up with switching schools.
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[SPEAKER_01]: which brought me into a completely new environment without any kind of friends and stuff, which I didn't think twice about at the time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I know that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, I was starting to get into like competitive, competitive, I sense.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And basically, as the teachers took interest in that, it's definitely a unique sport, especially for ML athlete in Alberta.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So they would put up like,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like a photos of my skating partner and I on the wall.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And they would like announce our achievements on the intercom in the morning sometime after a competition.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So very quickly, people started realizing what I did for a sport.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And
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[SPEAKER_01]: As soon as they caught wind of that, the bullying started calling me like homophobic slurs all all day long.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I was great six.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was about like 12 13 years old and that first it started with just you know like getting called names and stuff and so.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I had like known that like, you don't call people names, but like I never experienced it personally.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then once I started experiencing that, it was just like, oh, you know, like brush it off.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, you know, those people don't know what they're talking about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And eventually like, I started getting worse and I would tell my parents about it and they'd be like, oh, Paul, they're just like, you know, they're just jealous.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They don't know what they're talking about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then after a little while, we decided to bring in school,
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[SPEAKER_01]: And, and say, like, I wasn't gonna name names at the time, but my parents thought it was important for the school to start like addressing the bullying and not allowing for it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And like, any school, I think, says zero bullying tolerance.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But that's bullshit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They, they might not tolerate it on paper, but then like, they're not gonna discipline anybody
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[SPEAKER_01]: single people out usually, which in my opinion is what is like how you actually like stop it is if you like get to the source and not just address the entire school, which is great, you know, to bring somewhere and us to address the school about about bullying, but I mean the kids know that they're not supposed to be saying these things to others and like making their peers cry and they choose to do it especially when they're in a big group.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, as the as the year, um, progressed the, uh, the bullying hours, I started getting, uh, physically bullied like they, the worst, the worst that happened was I was pushed down the stairs, uh, between classes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, I had done years of Taekwondo international competitions and I was always taught like, do not use that skill as, uh,
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[SPEAKER_01]: you know, to hurt others.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But once, once that was taken to like the next level of getting pushed down the stairs, I probably take it differently now, but I threw the kid down the stairs after the next time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So the physical bullying stopped after that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And my parents, my parents took that more seriously, obviously.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And, and then after that point, I got my first death threat.
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[SPEAKER_01]: saying that if I didn't kill myself, they would kill me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know who sent it, and then I got another one later on in the year.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And at that point, my parents brought in the police immediately, which honestly just made things worse, because the kids in the school start seeing that like, oh, Paul's trying to get us in trouble.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what they're thinking, you know, but it definitely didn't help my case.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know where we're going to do it, but I was very important to be taking those steps seriously.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And especially like death threats, I mean, my dad was a lawyer and and like there's no way that it's not going to be taken seriously, even for like children.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't remember at what point in the year this was though, but
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[SPEAKER_01]: I remember I wouldn't want to go to school.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'd cry every single day when I would wake up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'd go to training and then I would know that I have to go from skating to school.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it was just not going to be not going to be enjoyable.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then at night, I would cry knowing that I had to do it all again the next day.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I was at a point where I was just seeking a way to no longer be experiencing this pain.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And thinking back on it now at how young I was and how it came to mind that that ending my life would stop the pain is shocking to me, but that is where I ended up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Mentally, that seemed like the only outlet I had was to,
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[SPEAKER_01]: was to commit suicide so that I wouldn't have to deal with this anymore, essentially.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's where the thoughts started, you know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't tell my parents about that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it was like from like knowing that I probably shouldn't be thinking about this or it was just, you know, just seemed like the only way out.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And eventually, when it got so bad, I felt like, I'm sure it wasn't to this extent, but it felt like every single person in my classroom was just calling me names and picking on me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And like, and I decided that I was going to do it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I was gonna drown myself in a lake.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I dragged a metal bench to the edge of the dock and I was going to fall in with it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I made my way all the way there to the edge of the dock and had the bench in front of me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the back back to the lake.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I was looking for any reason at the time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was just like, I don't need as any in your reason to not do this, and I couldn't think of anything.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how long I stood there for.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I was like, honestly, there's nothing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Suddenly, I got like a flash of memories of my younger brother Alex, who's four years younger than me, and we're very close to this day, we were super close back then, but just like a flood of memories of him of like,
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[SPEAKER_01]: over the years, things that I've always stuck with me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I, at that moment, it like kind of flipped the switch for me that I knew that this wasn't, this wasn't the way out.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I couldn't do this to him.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, maybe for me, the pain would be over.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But for my brother,
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[SPEAKER_01]: I like it couldn't imagine doing that to him.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so just like that, it was no longer an option to take my life for the outlet.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I walked home and told my mom and dad what I had,
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[SPEAKER_01]: What I was about to do, and they, obviously, and then I broke down in front of them and they
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like the next day, I'm sure it was when we found my first psychologists or psychiatrists to come and remember.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But that's when my journey started with talking to someone and working my way to where I am now, which nothing anybody says at this point in my life can affect me and I will never be back to that point again.
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[SPEAKER_02]: As someone who has been in therapy since she was 20, having that person to go to, to talk through what's going on in your head, it really helps you normalize some of it so that you can work through it versus what I call stuffing where you just everything is awful and you stuff it inside and you don't deal with it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it builds up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I connect with this story so much because I went through bullying in school when I was, I don't know, 10 through my junior of high school.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It was horrendous.
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[SPEAKER_02]: My parents didn't know the extent of it until I was honest with them about it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And when I told them, I think I was a freshman when, you know, year nine.
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[SPEAKER_02]: when I told them about it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it was a different time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Back then, if your child was bullying someone else and they brought you in to talk about it, it did have an effect.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It didn't get rid of it all, but it it helped.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There are typical things that kids do, that it's kind of more kids figuring out what the boundaries are and how far they can go.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Then there's what I think has
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[SPEAKER_02]: increased over time is the type of bullying that pushes kids to the point where they feel or to where you were or where they don't feel like they've got another option because the pain is so bad from constant bullying and mistreatment and I agree I think the schools do say
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think sometimes they come in at from a point where, oh, wow, wow, yeah, we don't want any bullying here, but they also don't want to upset the apple card and they'd rather have no problems at all, saying it's not happening, doesn't mean it's not happening, unless it's really not happening and you've done something to address it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I went to a really small school.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like I had 25 people in my class.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It was very small.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It was still a very big challenge.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so to hear you talk about this from, you know, your personal experience in the head space that you got in and how you got there, I really commend you for being brave to come forward and actually talk about.
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[SPEAKER_02]: all of this because I think it needs to be out there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The message needs to be out there because if even one person here is what you're saying, that's a positive impact that your story can have.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, first of all, I'm sorry for you having to go through that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I know how it can be.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Well, Paul, I'm like just so glad you're here talking to us.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, just to hear how it got that far and having your brother come in to your, you know, into your mind at that moment so that you didn't follow through with what you were going to do.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Again, that's why I'm just like, I'm thankful that you're here to now share your story
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[SPEAKER_03]: My one question, this was all happening prior to the social media, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: So this bullying you were experiencing was a lot of face-to-face bullying, right, to your face, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, see, and now I feel we've got social media that just makes things worse, especially
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[SPEAKER_03]: In even the skating world, I mean, we've been talking about how people use social media, they use their handles, and they can just post some message or two, and think, oh, that won't get to the skater, no one will see that, and I really, truly think that can be that one thing can just spiral and really affect someone.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, social media in every domain has given people the opportunity to hide behind a screen for sure and you're no longer needing to say the things you're wanting to say face to face which which is more confronting it's more challenging to say whatever you're thinking.
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[SPEAKER_01]: out loud in front of someone.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now you can say it just like your thought, you can just type it in and then it's for you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You haven't even said it out loud.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to mean.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the person's still taking it the same way as if you said it to their face or you just typed it in and like kind of quietly sent it, it still has the same impact and not only that,
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's way easier to have an accumulation because, again, it doesn't need to be face-to-face with how many people can you have and like in your face things, a certain thing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now you can have hundreds of people joining in on the one comment section for any post or a video with the JGPs now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to say I don't think people should critique because I do think that that's how we get better.
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[SPEAKER_01]: However,
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[SPEAKER_01]: You got to remember the age of athletes and also that we are all just human and we are all trying to do our best and get better.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're saying some comment that is absolutely nothing related to your toe pointing or your rocker or something that's irrelevant to the actual performance, then you're just allowing
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[SPEAKER_01]: anything to be said that could spiral or add in to to something that the skaters already dealing with.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And also.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The age thing especially like for me, I was around 12, 13 years old, even now I'm 28 years old and I feel like I'm still I'm still very young and I'm still gathering these tools to to deal with the deal with all of these different experiences at the age of 12 to what is the JGP is not to 21.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You don't know anything at that time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What tools could you possibly have put into your tool kit by that point to be able to deal with someone calling you something that you've maybe never heard before or something that you already are getting comments about and then it just adds on to it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have been wondering the same thing for a very long time because I think it's just gotten worse.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And we have the JGP's going and Olivia Smart was like the first one this season and she put it very plainly and I appreciated that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I was just telling Gina the other day, I think we need to bring some fans on to talk about
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[SPEAKER_02]: to reinforce skaters, confidence, and how we need more of it instead of all the negativity that we read, because I get heartbroken when I see what some people are posting.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I check my own site and I don't police every post, but I do take a look to see if there's anything on there that needs to be removed.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm also
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[SPEAKER_02]: cognizant of making sure that the responses aren't tearing someone to pieces, because that does not need to happen, not just inscating and not just athletes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I do believe people have been able to hide behind a screen name for a very long time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if it was their name out there, they would sit on their hands a little bit more and not be posting.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And this happened before social media because there were message boards that are still in existence where people would go and hide behind.
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[SPEAKER_02]: screen names and spout off about whatever they wanted to, negative, positive, whatever, I've always posted behind my name.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's always been my name.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm writing something, I have to, I feel like I have to stay in behind it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I also feel like nothing I post should be posted in a way that I wouldn't be okay with having my name behind it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's like the wild west out there in social media.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's keyboard warriors who just can't stop.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it would be different if you had to post it yourself because you wouldn't say things like that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I've said to Gina before, if I'm fired up about something, I will.
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[SPEAKER_02]: type something out and then let it sit overnight before I send it because I need to reflect on it and sometimes because we all get fired up about things.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If you write something up and post it, you're acting in the heat of the moment versus a place of clarity and so I wait just to give myself the time to reflect it and
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[SPEAKER_02]: Revise it so it doesn't sound maybe as fired up as it is.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I agree with that if you have to question whether or not, it's going to be taken well or could it be, could it be taken?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, not you, but it could be taken as mean.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is all right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's already crossing the line.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe don't.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like you said, take the time that you need to like, come at it with a different headspace, then
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[SPEAKER_01]: then you can have a different perspective on it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I also heard a quote recently that I really liked from one of our, one of the ladies that helps us with sports like at the school here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She said that we judge ourselves by our intentions but others judge us based on our actions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, you write a post, you write a comment, you're not intending to hurt the athlete, maybe.
24:20.507 --> 24:24.810
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not intending for whatever to happen to the person.
24:27.171 --> 24:31.054
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is your actions that are having an effect on the person.
24:31.174 --> 24:39.799
[SPEAKER_01]: So, it's not necessarily, I mean, if we look at a world history, like how many terrible things have happened with the right intention.
24:40.433 --> 24:44.175
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're talking to someone, you can hear inflection in the voice.
24:44.215 --> 24:48.016
[SPEAKER_02]: You can hear like what the intent is and you can understand that.
24:48.476 --> 25:01.542
[SPEAKER_02]: When it's just text, I can't tell you personally how many times I have misunderstood the intention behind text because I couldn't hear the person's voice saying it to me.
25:09.087 --> 25:11.910
[SPEAKER_03]: because this was the root of the bullying.
25:12.050 --> 25:17.655
[SPEAKER_03]: Did you ever say nope, I need to just get rid of skating if I stop skating, the bullying will end.
25:18.513 --> 25:42.940
[SPEAKER_01]: It did cross my mind, yes, and I know for a fact actually that that has been the reason why some of some athletes that I have known have stopped skating because of that, actually, and I know some people that decided not even to go competitive because their older sibling experienced it or their friend experienced it, so they're like, I don't even want to touch that.
25:43.480 --> 25:46.601
[SPEAKER_01]: And I get it, like the,
25:48.443 --> 25:55.149
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's, that's also bullshit, like, that shouldn't be the, that shouldn't be the case.
25:58.792 --> 26:08.420
[SPEAKER_01]: I think at the end of the day for myself though, skating was, and is the hardest sport I've ever experienced.
26:09.632 --> 26:18.215
[SPEAKER_01]: because not only physically, but like you can, you know, bust your ass and then you're needing to look like it's easy.
26:18.235 --> 26:24.136
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to perform facially and it's just like there's so many different layers to it.
26:24.156 --> 26:29.338
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just like crossing the finish line first, which of course takes so much work and whatever or scoring another goal.
26:30.978 --> 26:44.686
[SPEAKER_01]: There's like having to do it with a with a smile and like having to do like it's just there's so many layers to it that I love the challenge and having done competitive sports my whole life even before this and during this time I had I was doing other sports.
26:47.048 --> 26:49.969
[SPEAKER_01]: Like hockey at the time and I love hockey I still love hockey.
26:52.311 --> 26:55.453
[SPEAKER_01]: But one I love the challenge of skating and to.
26:57.917 --> 27:00.478
[SPEAKER_01]: I enjoyed it more than any of these other sports.
27:00.898 --> 27:06.961
[SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't want to step away from that because of other people.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If I still wanted to do it.
27:09.462 --> 27:25.429
[SPEAKER_02]: I can tell you that I have had to remove photos from my galleries, from teenage skaters, or whose parents have reached out to me and said, my son's no longer skating.
27:28.387 --> 27:29.387
[SPEAKER_02]: causing a problem.
27:30.968 --> 27:33.989
[SPEAKER_02]: And I always comply when there is a request.
27:34.990 --> 27:39.752
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't get a lot of them now, but I used to get them quite often.
27:41.053 --> 27:45.454
[SPEAKER_02]: 90% were boys, or men who have said, could you please take this down?
27:46.435 --> 27:55.219
[SPEAKER_02]: It makes my heart hurt a little bit that they feel that they can't have that side of themselves out there, because someone's making
27:59.082 --> 28:04.827
[SPEAKER_02]: something that they love so much and over time it can make you hated I think.
28:05.608 --> 28:09.731
[SPEAKER_02]: In many cases they do quit and I'm glad that you didn't quit.
28:09.751 --> 28:20.621
[SPEAKER_02]: That shows a lot of strength to be able to navigate through all of that mental emotional experience without giving up skating.
28:22.512 --> 28:33.759
[SPEAKER_03]: talk a little bit about the stigma surrounding men and boys and skating like definitely saying right there that she had to take down photos from male skaters.
28:34.339 --> 28:43.224
[SPEAKER_03]: Are we seeing anything really change or is there still this stigma surrounding, you know, any boy or any male that skates?
28:43.564 --> 28:47.607
[SPEAKER_03]: Are we seeing anything change in this realm?
28:48.335 --> 28:56.600
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to answer that question because I can only answer it from my experience and I'm not in elementary school, not in junior high anymore, not in high school.
28:56.620 --> 29:08.367
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know what's going on in those areas, but but from my side of things that I do see like a positive shift.
29:09.227 --> 29:19.847
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm happy to hear sometimes when my friends talk about it that they never experienced it, that they, they're male skaters and they experience all of their friends being supportive.
29:19.867 --> 29:20.768
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, wow, that is...
29:22.277 --> 29:24.077
[SPEAKER_01]: It was amazing, like I'm so happy for you.
29:24.798 --> 29:29.939
[SPEAKER_01]: For me, that came in high school at the National Sports School in Calgary when I first went there.
29:31.419 --> 29:32.639
[SPEAKER_01]: I was instantly accepted.
29:33.319 --> 29:36.420
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was zero judgment.
29:36.440 --> 29:44.601
[SPEAKER_01]: There was other athletes that did other sports that have a stigma behind them, diving, gymnastics.
29:45.122 --> 29:48.062
[SPEAKER_01]: And these are all sports that are extremely, extremely
29:53.024 --> 30:03.191
[SPEAKER_01]: But to be in the community where I found the community where I I could connect with other athletes that were experiencing the same thing really really helped me out.
30:05.732 --> 30:12.637
[SPEAKER_01]: Something else I want to mention though is that I wasn't only experiencing this from students.
30:12.837 --> 30:15.619
[SPEAKER_01]: One of my teachers in at that school
30:17.998 --> 30:22.701
[SPEAKER_01]: whether he knew he was doing it or not, I don't know.
30:23.702 --> 30:34.509
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would come in with my late slip from, and I would say like late because of figure skating, and I would come in at the same time as another guy who was late because of hockey.
30:35.530 --> 30:43.496
[SPEAKER_01]: And we would walk into the classroom and the guy, the hockey player would hand over his, I played hockey at the same time, by the way.
30:44.599 --> 30:47.340
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I was just late because of figure skating.
30:48.020 --> 30:58.262
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyways, he hand them the teacher, the slip, and it says, for hockey and he's like, oh my god, like, how was practice?
30:58.282 --> 30:59.002
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how was it?
30:59.022 --> 31:00.242
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, did you score a lot?
31:00.262 --> 31:01.382
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope it was amazing.
31:01.742 --> 31:02.343
[SPEAKER_01]: Great question.
31:03.383 --> 31:05.623
[SPEAKER_01]: I did wonder, like, why he's so interested in like, did he score?
31:05.643 --> 31:06.463
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a practice.
31:06.543 --> 31:08.484
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you should be scoring.
31:08.504 --> 31:11.444
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like a game, but, all right.
31:11.965 --> 31:13.525
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, oh, yeah, like how to see it.
31:17.131 --> 31:42.725
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I was like, I was like, okay, you know, my turn, he has, he's ripped it up before he crumpled it up and sit down ball and it just like, I mean at the time, it didn't like register that he is enabling the entire classroom at least in this class to participate in this kind of behavior that like it's okay to do hockey, but it's not okay to figure skate.
31:44.289 --> 31:48.970
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, I don't know if he knew that I also played hockey and the nothing matters, you know what I mean?
31:49.731 --> 32:00.214
[SPEAKER_01]: But the bullying didn't only stay within the student body, it was also with adults.
32:00.234 --> 32:06.736
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, a young kid isn't gonna come out with bullying, they learn it somewhere, you know?
32:08.076 --> 32:11.497
[SPEAKER_01]: They are, it's taught whether it's from your own parents,
32:14.570 --> 32:18.812
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's, it's observed behavior that you repeat yourself.
32:19.332 --> 32:19.952
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
32:20.973 --> 32:25.075
[SPEAKER_02]: Kids look to adults and people they trust to emulate.
32:25.335 --> 32:31.197
[SPEAKER_02]: And if your teacher is behaving that way, oh, it must be OK, Mr. Smith is doing it.
32:32.258 --> 32:34.099
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and kids are impressionable.
32:34.699 --> 32:35.659
[SPEAKER_02]: They're impressionable.
32:36.420 --> 32:36.580
[SPEAKER_02]: And
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[SPEAKER_02]: having someone with that power as a teacher to display this behavior is not helping the situation at all.
32:46.907 --> 32:48.068
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just making it worse.
32:48.908 --> 32:54.150
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, in the second that somebody like laughs about it, then like it's like a positive feedback loop for themselves.
32:54.750 --> 33:00.252
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, like the class laughs, so then let me do it, the class will laugh and then it's just like,
33:07.842 --> 33:09.823
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, one, adult should know better.
33:09.843 --> 33:21.591
[SPEAKER_02]: I look back at my high school experience and think, if I went back with the mindset I have now, I would not have let any of them get away with anything.
33:22.312 --> 33:23.432
[SPEAKER_02]: It would be interesting.
33:23.953 --> 33:28.736
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I would have been more assertive now, no one will want to know now.
33:29.696 --> 33:34.960
[SPEAKER_02]: But at that age, you're not strong, because you're still building the strength inside you.
33:35.448 --> 33:40.553
[SPEAKER_01]: It took a lot to become, like, who you are today, who I am today.
33:40.573 --> 33:47.999
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've had the thoughts of like, oh, if I had the tools that I have now, like, but I have those tools now.
33:48.059 --> 33:56.386
[SPEAKER_01]: So what can I do now to make a difference, reason why I'm doing this, because I, I have zero bullying colors.
33:57.627 --> 34:02.571
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I see it, there's no, there's no letting it slide now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to talk about the genus question about the stigma because when I when I speak to my friends that didn't experience this bullying, it's interesting like they're they're backgrounds that come from or like where they lived a lot of the athletes that I talk to from example Europe, there's like.
34:29.787 --> 34:45.017
[SPEAKER_01]: Most of the bullying that I have heard about comes from Canada and the U.S. Not even North America because Mexico is a very, art friendly country.
34:45.938 --> 34:47.078
[SPEAKER_01]: But Canada and the U.S.
34:48.251 --> 34:55.116
[SPEAKER_01]: from my experience and from my friends, that's where a lot of the bullying has come from.
34:55.136 --> 35:13.549
[SPEAKER_01]: The European's, not that it doesn't exist, they're absolutely it does, but the Europeans and even the Russians, like the art and like skating is looked at and admired by men and women and everybody else, you know?
35:16.673 --> 35:20.475
[SPEAKER_01]: So, what is it that gives that stigma here?
35:20.495 --> 35:33.281
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, is it media, is it movies, is it's, oh, I don't know what it is, but it is interesting that majority of the ones that have experienced it are from Canada and the States.
35:33.821 --> 35:34.422
[SPEAKER_03]: So, Paula.
35:35.392 --> 35:37.333
[SPEAKER_03]: you are sharing your story now.
35:38.133 --> 35:39.833
[SPEAKER_03]: What has this port been like for you?
35:40.433 --> 35:42.294
[SPEAKER_03]: Have you been hearing from others?
35:42.974 --> 35:46.575
[SPEAKER_03]: Who have said thank you for sharing your story?
35:46.735 --> 35:48.556
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm dealing with sort of the same thing.
35:49.316 --> 35:52.157
[SPEAKER_03]: How has it been since you came out with this last week?
35:52.848 --> 35:53.209
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
35:53.769 --> 36:00.138
[SPEAKER_01]: I was hoping for positive response and it has surpassed that tenfold.
36:00.558 --> 36:07.207
[SPEAKER_01]: I've not only received responses from people thanking me for talking about an important subject, you know, but they
36:08.157 --> 36:11.158
[SPEAKER_01]: they just know that it's important, and there's that.
36:11.798 --> 36:24.643
[SPEAKER_01]: But the number of people that have reached out telling me that they are also experiencing bullying or they're going through a really hard time in their lives right now, as far as mental health goes.
36:25.243 --> 36:34.126
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have received messages from people saying that they are also going through the same suicidal thoughts that I had experienced back in the day.
36:36.767 --> 36:53.484
[SPEAKER_01]: just talking about it with me or hearing that somebody else had experience that as well and closer than then like you know just on the news across the country that you don't even know the person but like it's it's a lot closer than we realize.
36:54.671 --> 37:05.842
[SPEAKER_01]: and oftentimes this issue in particular, we don't know how closely will impact us whether it's directly or indirectly until it's too late.
37:06.023 --> 37:09.446
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wrote that in my post on Instagram because I think it's important.
37:10.227 --> 37:14.912
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know how closely it will impact us.
37:17.600 --> 37:22.682
[SPEAKER_01]: until until it's too late, most often and then you're always like, oh, what could I have done?
37:22.762 --> 37:37.267
[SPEAKER_01]: Did I see the signs and this and that and there always be those questions, but you just live your life treating people with kindness and equally then then you can go to sleep at night, knowing that you know what?
37:38.207 --> 37:49.933
[SPEAKER_01]: I did do what I could and the person that if the person struggled and went through with something that was out of your control, what did you do?
37:49.953 --> 37:50.993
[SPEAKER_01]: That wasn't your control.
37:52.634 --> 37:54.795
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you do good?
37:55.315 --> 38:01.278
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we want to thank you Paul for coming on this weekend's gating and talking about this topic.
38:01.518 --> 38:05.020
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we're going to have to do a part two at some point because
38:06.057 --> 38:08.340
[SPEAKER_02]: there's still so much to flesh out.
38:08.880 --> 38:13.966
[SPEAKER_02]: And because I think I can speak for Gina, we feel this is a conversation that needs to continue.
38:14.607 --> 38:19.513
[SPEAKER_02]: It's something that needs to stay on the top of people's minds.
38:20.253 --> 38:22.616
[SPEAKER_02]: And it can't just get pushed by the wayside.
38:22.636 --> 38:25.760
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, hey, I'd love to come back on, so.
38:26.152 --> 38:28.673
[SPEAKER_03]: And we didn't even get to talk to you about skating.
38:29.153 --> 38:32.974
[SPEAKER_03]: I know you're our competing next week or this weekend.
38:33.214 --> 38:35.715
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, and you have a brand new partnership.
38:36.155 --> 38:44.997
[SPEAKER_03]: So we would love to have you come on and talk about all of that as you get excited and get ready for this new journey in your skating.
38:46.178 --> 38:46.998
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'd love to.
38:47.058 --> 38:52.720
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really want to thank both of you for doing this and doing what you do, really appreciate it.
38:54.775 --> 38:58.757
[SPEAKER_01]: It has a positive impact on people.
38:59.978 --> 39:02.519
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for tuning in to another episode of this week in skating.
39:02.879 --> 39:08.742
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, you can keep up with us throughout the week by visiting our website at www.thisweekinscating.com.
39:09.223 --> 39:11.304
[SPEAKER_00]: Connect with us on social media for additional updates.
39:11.684 --> 39:19.328
[SPEAKER_00]: You can find us on Twitter at this week in skating without the ease or Facebook, Instagram, and Threads at this week in skating.
39:19.868 --> 39:22.551
[SPEAKER_00]: You got a burning question or feedback for Gina Daphne or Mateo?
39:23.052 --> 39:27.577
[SPEAKER_00]: Reach out to us via social media or drop us an email at thisweekenscading at gmail.com.
39:28.037 --> 39:35.045
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're really enjoying the show and want to support us further, consider joining our Patreon community at patreon.com slash this week in skating.
39:35.526 --> 39:37.368
[SPEAKER_00]: Until next time, have a nice week!
00:00.250 --> 00:03.831
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, this is Paulair, and you're listening to This Week in Skating.
00:20.775 --> 00:26.156
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to This Week in Skating, the weekly podcast bringing you the latest news from the world of figure skating.
00:26.676 --> 00:29.417
[SPEAKER_00]: Here are your hosts, Daphne, Gina, and Matteo.
00:31.491 --> 00:32.272
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back.
00:32.552 --> 00:37.298
[SPEAKER_02]: Before we begin, this episode discusses bullying, mental health and suicide.
00:38.019 --> 00:39.942
[SPEAKER_02]: Listener discretion is advised.
00:40.663 --> 00:42.645
[SPEAKER_02]: Subtember is suicide prevention month.
00:42.945 --> 00:46.410
[SPEAKER_02]: Today we are joined by Canadian Ice Deanser Paul Ayer.
00:47.070 --> 00:52.094
[SPEAKER_03]: On the ice, Paul is a two-time Canadian national bronze medalist and world competitor.
00:52.694 --> 00:58.658
[SPEAKER_03]: But off the ice, Paul has experienced bullying, mental health struggles, and suicidal thoughts.
00:59.358 --> 01:07.003
[SPEAKER_03]: Last week, Paul had the courage to share his story with Skate Canada and we are honored to have him here to share his story with us.
01:07.544 --> 01:10.266
[SPEAKER_02]: So we want to welcome Paul to this week in skating.
01:12.732 --> 01:14.735
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, thank you so much for having me on here.
01:15.536 --> 01:22.106
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really excited to talk about this topic now that it's out for the world to see it on my socials.
01:22.307 --> 01:25.452
[SPEAKER_01]: And the more we can spread the word, the better.
01:26.083 --> 01:27.064
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah definitely.
01:27.704 --> 01:33.930
[SPEAKER_02]: I really commend you for being courageous to come forward and talk about this difficult topic.
01:34.551 --> 01:49.344
[SPEAKER_02]: The more this is talked about, the more it normalizes talking about it, so maybe people would be more inclined to seek out help versus trying to manage it themselves
01:53.567 --> 01:58.468
[SPEAKER_02]: and I commend you for being a role model for coming forward and speaking about it.
01:58.988 --> 02:05.850
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's something that goes on in skating a lot more than what we hear about.
02:06.930 --> 02:15.092
[SPEAKER_02]: It's become a more common for skaters who talk about mental health issues, but we need more people to feel comfortable to come forward.
02:15.830 --> 02:17.651
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I completely agree with that statement.
02:17.971 --> 02:23.115
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only as the person that was experiencing that, but also as the listener.
02:25.196 --> 02:33.181
[SPEAKER_01]: If I hadn't gone through what I have experienced then has a listener, I wouldn't really know what to say.
02:33.241 --> 02:37.964
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd be like a sensitive topic and I wouldn't want to mess up.
02:37.985 --> 02:44.369
[SPEAKER_01]: So often times I find people just try to avoid the subject just to not say the wrong thing and then they're worried
02:45.932 --> 02:47.613
[SPEAKER_01]: that they kind of made it worse.
02:47.693 --> 02:50.135
[SPEAKER_01]: When really all you need to do is be there to listen.
02:50.155 --> 03:08.146
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll take that stigma away from not only speaking out about it, but also being able to just hear someone out on a topic that you don't actually understand fully because maybe you're fortunate enough to not experience it, but just listening does make a difference for anyone.
03:09.257 --> 03:21.266
[SPEAKER_03]: Now for people who haven't read your skate, Canada article yet, can you talk to us about this bullying you experienced as a teenager?
03:21.306 --> 03:25.750
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you just kind of share what happened, basically?
03:26.891 --> 03:47.734
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so living in Calgary, Alberta, before I moved out here to Montreal for skating, but I started skating around grade five, and then into grade six, but in grade five, I was going to a elementary school, which usually ends in grade six at West.
03:49.763 --> 04:06.671
[SPEAKER_01]: Normally the kids after grade six move into junior high for grade seven eight nine, however, at this particular school that I was going to, I decided to switch early so you could switch one year before so you go six seven eight nine and.
04:09.232 --> 04:16.935
[SPEAKER_01]: Because of that I switched schools without basically my entire class that I had grown up with switching schools.
04:19.052 --> 04:27.197
[SPEAKER_01]: which brought me into a completely new environment without any kind of friends and stuff, which I didn't think twice about at the time.
04:27.897 --> 04:28.317
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that.
04:28.798 --> 04:32.680
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, I was starting to get into like competitive, competitive, I sense.
04:33.840 --> 04:42.465
[SPEAKER_01]: And basically, as the teachers took interest in that, it's definitely a unique sport, especially for ML athlete in Alberta.
04:43.446 --> 04:44.406
[SPEAKER_01]: So they would put up like,
04:46.004 --> 04:49.046
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a photos of my skating partner and I on the wall.
04:49.346 --> 04:55.789
[SPEAKER_01]: And they would like announce our achievements on the intercom in the morning sometime after a competition.
04:55.829 --> 05:00.631
[SPEAKER_01]: So very quickly, people started realizing what I did for a sport.
05:00.671 --> 05:00.811
[SPEAKER_01]: And
05:04.941 --> 05:15.007
[SPEAKER_01]: As soon as they caught wind of that, the bullying started calling me like homophobic slurs all all day long.
05:16.748 --> 05:17.508
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was great six.
05:17.528 --> 05:25.213
[SPEAKER_01]: I was about like 12 13 years old and that first it started with just you know like getting called names and stuff and so.
05:27.161 --> 05:32.183
[SPEAKER_01]: I had like known that like, you don't call people names, but like I never experienced it personally.
05:32.343 --> 05:37.045
[SPEAKER_01]: And then once I started experiencing that, it was just like, oh, you know, like brush it off.
05:37.205 --> 05:39.706
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, you know, those people don't know what they're talking about.
05:40.586 --> 05:48.009
[SPEAKER_01]: And eventually like, I started getting worse and I would tell my parents about it and they'd be like, oh, Paul, they're just like, you know, they're just jealous.
05:48.029 --> 05:49.430
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't know what they're talking about.
05:49.490 --> 05:55.372
[SPEAKER_01]: And then after a little while, we decided to bring in school,
05:57.733 --> 06:10.143
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and say, like, I wasn't gonna name names at the time, but my parents thought it was important for the school to start like addressing the bullying and not allowing for it.
06:10.183 --> 06:14.986
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, any school, I think, says zero bullying tolerance.
06:15.687 --> 06:16.467
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's bullshit.
06:17.128 --> 06:23.072
[SPEAKER_01]: They, they might not tolerate it on paper, but then like, they're not gonna discipline anybody
06:25.852 --> 06:54.318
[SPEAKER_01]: single people out usually, which in my opinion is what is like how you actually like stop it is if you like get to the source and not just address the entire school, which is great, you know, to bring somewhere and us to address the school about about bullying, but I mean the kids know that they're not supposed to be saying these things to others and like making their peers cry and they choose to do it especially when they're in a big group.
06:55.593 --> 07:12.083
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, as the as the year, um, progressed the, uh, the bullying hours, I started getting, uh, physically bullied like they, the worst, the worst that happened was I was pushed down the stairs, uh, between classes.
07:13.924 --> 07:22.490
[SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, I had done years of Taekwondo international competitions and I was always taught like, do not use that skill as, uh,
07:23.535 --> 07:24.495
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, to hurt others.
07:25.016 --> 07:37.762
[SPEAKER_01]: But once, once that was taken to like the next level of getting pushed down the stairs, I probably take it differently now, but I threw the kid down the stairs after the next time.
07:38.002 --> 07:41.043
[SPEAKER_01]: So the physical bullying stopped after that.
07:44.145 --> 07:47.867
[SPEAKER_01]: And my parents, my parents took that more seriously, obviously.
07:48.107 --> 07:52.489
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and then after that point, I got my first death threat.
07:54.083 --> 07:57.159
[SPEAKER_01]: saying that if I didn't kill myself, they would kill me.
07:58.829 --> 08:04.472
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know who sent it, and then I got another one later on in the year.
08:04.753 --> 08:18.701
[SPEAKER_01]: And at that point, my parents brought in the police immediately, which honestly just made things worse, because the kids in the school start seeing that like, oh, Paul's trying to get us in trouble.
08:18.721 --> 08:22.603
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what they're thinking, you know, but it definitely didn't help my case.
08:22.623 --> 08:27.086
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know where we're going to do it, but I was very important to be taking those steps seriously.
08:29.108 --> 08:39.200
[SPEAKER_01]: And especially like death threats, I mean, my dad was a lawyer and and like there's no way that it's not going to be taken seriously, even for like children.
08:41.422 --> 08:46.368
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't remember at what point in the year this was though, but
08:48.495 --> 08:50.417
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember I wouldn't want to go to school.
08:50.497 --> 08:54.380
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd cry every single day when I would wake up.
08:54.420 --> 08:59.865
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd go to training and then I would know that I have to go from skating to school.
08:59.985 --> 09:03.508
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was just not going to be not going to be enjoyable.
09:04.629 --> 09:07.551
[SPEAKER_01]: And then at night, I would cry knowing that I had to do it all again the next day.
09:09.033 --> 09:16.199
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was at a point where I was just seeking a way to no longer be experiencing this pain.
09:17.460 --> 09:37.064
[SPEAKER_01]: And thinking back on it now at how young I was and how it came to mind that that ending my life would stop the pain is shocking to me, but that is where I ended up.
09:38.304 --> 09:44.705
[SPEAKER_01]: Mentally, that seemed like the only outlet I had was to,
09:47.442 --> 09:52.866
[SPEAKER_01]: was to commit suicide so that I wouldn't have to deal with this anymore, essentially.
09:54.928 --> 09:56.769
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's where the thoughts started, you know.
09:58.310 --> 10:01.353
[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't tell my parents about that.
10:01.373 --> 10:11.541
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it was like from like knowing that I probably shouldn't be thinking about this or it was just, you know, just seemed like the only way out.
10:13.941 --> 10:26.926
[SPEAKER_01]: And eventually, when it got so bad, I felt like, I'm sure it wasn't to this extent, but it felt like every single person in my classroom was just calling me names and picking on me.
10:26.986 --> 10:31.627
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, and I decided that I was going to do it.
10:33.508 --> 10:36.689
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was gonna drown myself in a lake.
10:38.123 --> 10:44.669
[SPEAKER_01]: And I dragged a metal bench to the edge of the dock and I was going to fall in with it.
10:45.850 --> 10:50.994
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I made my way all the way there to the edge of the dock and had the bench in front of me.
10:54.217 --> 10:55.638
[SPEAKER_01]: And the back back to the lake.
10:57.079 --> 10:59.301
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was looking for any reason at the time.
10:59.321 --> 11:05.645
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just like, I don't need as any in your reason to not do this, and I couldn't think of anything.
11:06.306 --> 11:08.167
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how long I stood there for.
11:10.029 --> 11:13.251
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was like, honestly, there's nothing.
11:13.631 --> 11:14.172
[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing.
11:15.252 --> 11:15.633
[SPEAKER_01]: And then,
11:19.589 --> 11:36.247
[SPEAKER_01]: Suddenly, I got like a flash of memories of my younger brother Alex, who's four years younger than me, and we're very close to this day, we were super close back then, but just like a flood of memories of him of like,
11:37.237 --> 11:40.199
[SPEAKER_01]: over the years, things that I've always stuck with me.
11:40.580 --> 11:50.988
[SPEAKER_01]: And I, at that moment, it like kind of flipped the switch for me that I knew that this wasn't, this wasn't the way out.
11:52.049 --> 11:55.492
[SPEAKER_01]: And I couldn't do this to him.
11:56.853 --> 12:00.376
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, maybe for me, the pain would be over.
12:01.456 --> 12:03.218
[SPEAKER_01]: But for my brother,
12:05.128 --> 12:06.949
[SPEAKER_01]: I like it couldn't imagine doing that to him.
12:12.332 --> 12:23.819
[SPEAKER_01]: And so just like that, it was no longer an option to take my life for the outlet.
12:23.919 --> 12:28.782
[SPEAKER_01]: And I walked home and told my mom and dad what I had,
12:30.300 --> 12:38.111
[SPEAKER_01]: What I was about to do, and they, obviously, and then I broke down in front of them and they
12:40.593 --> 12:47.379
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the next day, I'm sure it was when we found my first psychologists or psychiatrists to come and remember.
12:48.019 --> 13:06.896
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's when my journey started with talking to someone and working my way to where I am now, which nothing anybody says at this point in my life can affect me and I will never be back to that point again.
13:08.292 --> 13:33.081
[SPEAKER_02]: As someone who has been in therapy since she was 20, having that person to go to, to talk through what's going on in your head, it really helps you normalize some of it so that you can work through it versus what I call stuffing where you just everything is awful and you stuff it inside and you don't deal with it.
13:33.341 --> 13:34.202
[SPEAKER_02]: And it builds up.
13:35.222 --> 13:35.442
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
13:36.014 --> 13:47.443
[SPEAKER_02]: I connect with this story so much because I went through bullying in school when I was, I don't know, 10 through my junior of high school.
13:48.704 --> 13:50.626
[SPEAKER_02]: It was horrendous.
13:52.967 --> 13:58.171
[SPEAKER_02]: My parents didn't know the extent of it until I was honest with them about it.
13:59.112 --> 14:03.816
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I told them, I think I was a freshman when, you know, year nine.
14:04.522 --> 14:05.762
[SPEAKER_02]: when I told them about it.
14:06.103 --> 14:08.944
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was a different time.
14:09.024 --> 14:15.666
[SPEAKER_02]: Back then, if your child was bullying someone else and they brought you in to talk about it, it did have an effect.
14:16.006 --> 14:18.167
[SPEAKER_02]: It didn't get rid of it all, but it it helped.
14:19.167 --> 14:28.831
[SPEAKER_02]: There are typical things that kids do, that it's kind of more kids figuring out what the boundaries are and how far they can go.
14:29.911 --> 14:32.292
[SPEAKER_02]: Then there's what I think has
14:33.148 --> 14:57.637
[SPEAKER_02]: increased over time is the type of bullying that pushes kids to the point where they feel or to where you were or where they don't feel like they've got another option because the pain is so bad from constant bullying and mistreatment and I agree I think the schools do say
15:02.748 --> 15:22.855
[SPEAKER_02]: I think sometimes they come in at from a point where, oh, wow, wow, yeah, we don't want any bullying here, but they also don't want to upset the apple card and they'd rather have no problems at all, saying it's not happening, doesn't mean it's not happening, unless it's really not happening and you've done something to address it.
15:24.031 --> 15:25.592
[SPEAKER_02]: And I went to a really small school.
15:25.712 --> 15:28.153
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I had 25 people in my class.
15:28.554 --> 15:30.054
[SPEAKER_02]: It was very small.
15:30.074 --> 15:32.256
[SPEAKER_02]: It was still a very big challenge.
15:32.316 --> 15:46.784
[SPEAKER_02]: And so to hear you talk about this from, you know, your personal experience in the head space that you got in and how you got there, I really commend you for being brave to come forward and actually talk about.
15:47.378 --> 15:51.161
[SPEAKER_02]: all of this because I think it needs to be out there.
15:51.181 --> 16:01.928
[SPEAKER_02]: The message needs to be out there because if even one person here is what you're saying, that's a positive impact that your story can have.
16:02.609 --> 16:05.611
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, first of all, I'm sorry for you having to go through that.
16:05.631 --> 16:08.153
[SPEAKER_01]: I know how it can be.
16:09.810 --> 16:14.213
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, Paul, I'm like just so glad you're here talking to us.
16:14.453 --> 16:30.964
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, just to hear how it got that far and having your brother come in to your, you know, into your mind at that moment so that you didn't follow through with what you were going to do.
16:32.005 --> 16:37.409
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, that's why I'm just like, I'm thankful that you're here to now share your story
16:40.312 --> 16:45.476
[SPEAKER_03]: My one question, this was all happening prior to the social media, right?
16:45.496 --> 16:51.319
[SPEAKER_03]: So this bullying you were experiencing was a lot of face-to-face bullying, right, to your face, right?
16:52.880 --> 17:01.946
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, see, and now I feel we've got social media that just makes things worse, especially
17:03.258 --> 17:30.892
[SPEAKER_03]: In even the skating world, I mean, we've been talking about how people use social media, they use their handles, and they can just post some message or two, and think, oh, that won't get to the skater, no one will see that, and I really, truly think that can be that one thing can just spiral and really affect someone.
17:31.943 --> 17:55.068
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, social media in every domain has given people the opportunity to hide behind a screen for sure and you're no longer needing to say the things you're wanting to say face to face which which is more confronting it's more challenging to say whatever you're thinking.
17:56.297 --> 17:58.139
[SPEAKER_01]: out loud in front of someone.
17:58.460 --> 18:03.505
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you can say it just like your thought, you can just type it in and then it's for you.
18:03.585 --> 18:04.847
[SPEAKER_01]: You haven't even said it out loud.
18:04.867 --> 18:05.988
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to mean.
18:06.388 --> 18:17.181
[SPEAKER_01]: But the person's still taking it the same way as if you said it to their face or you just typed it in and like kind of quietly sent it, it still has the same impact and not only that,
18:18.458 --> 18:28.328
[SPEAKER_01]: It's way easier to have an accumulation because, again, it doesn't need to be face-to-face with how many people can you have and like in your face things, a certain thing.
18:30.510 --> 18:40.380
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you can have hundreds of people joining in on the one comment section for any post or a video with the JGPs now.
18:41.953 --> 18:48.480
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to say I don't think people should critique because I do think that that's how we get better.
18:49.401 --> 18:49.842
[SPEAKER_01]: However,
18:52.195 --> 19:01.522
[SPEAKER_01]: You got to remember the age of athletes and also that we are all just human and we are all trying to do our best and get better.
19:01.942 --> 19:18.974
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're saying some comment that is absolutely nothing related to your toe pointing or your rocker or something that's irrelevant to the actual performance, then you're just allowing
19:20.826 --> 19:29.753
[SPEAKER_01]: anything to be said that could spiral or add in to to something that the skaters already dealing with.
19:32.315 --> 19:32.775
[SPEAKER_01]: And also.
19:35.103 --> 19:54.788
[SPEAKER_01]: The age thing especially like for me, I was around 12, 13 years old, even now I'm 28 years old and I feel like I'm still I'm still very young and I'm still gathering these tools to to deal with the deal with all of these different experiences at the age of 12 to what is the JGP is not to 21.
19:57.128 --> 19:59.369
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't know anything at that time.
19:59.709 --> 20:17.733
[SPEAKER_01]: What tools could you possibly have put into your tool kit by that point to be able to deal with someone calling you something that you've maybe never heard before or something that you already are getting comments about and then it just adds on to it.
20:24.030 --> 20:29.534
[SPEAKER_02]: I have been wondering the same thing for a very long time because I think it's just gotten worse.
20:30.695 --> 20:42.504
[SPEAKER_02]: And we have the JGP's going and Olivia Smart was like the first one this season and she put it very plainly and I appreciated that.
20:43.864 --> 20:49.348
[SPEAKER_02]: I was just telling Gina the other day, I think we need to bring some fans on to talk about
20:53.313 --> 21:06.545
[SPEAKER_02]: to reinforce skaters, confidence, and how we need more of it instead of all the negativity that we read, because I get heartbroken when I see what some people are posting.
21:07.305 --> 21:17.094
[SPEAKER_02]: And I check my own site and I don't police every post, but I do take a look to see if there's anything on there that needs to be removed.
21:18.275 --> 21:18.975
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm also
21:20.343 --> 21:34.675
[SPEAKER_02]: cognizant of making sure that the responses aren't tearing someone to pieces, because that does not need to happen, not just inscating and not just athletes.
21:35.908 --> 21:42.453
[SPEAKER_02]: And I do believe people have been able to hide behind a screen name for a very long time.
21:42.994 --> 21:50.820
[SPEAKER_02]: And if it was their name out there, they would sit on their hands a little bit more and not be posting.
21:51.241 --> 21:58.787
[SPEAKER_02]: And this happened before social media because there were message boards that are still in existence where people would go and hide behind.
22:00.037 --> 22:09.262
[SPEAKER_02]: screen names and spout off about whatever they wanted to, negative, positive, whatever, I've always posted behind my name.
22:09.402 --> 22:10.763
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's always been my name.
22:10.883 --> 22:15.486
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm writing something, I have to, I feel like I have to stay in behind it.
22:16.446 --> 22:26.772
[SPEAKER_02]: And I also feel like nothing I post should be posted in a way that I wouldn't be okay with having my name behind it.
22:28.437 --> 22:31.480
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like the wild west out there in social media.
22:31.621 --> 22:34.984
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's keyboard warriors who just can't stop.
22:35.345 --> 22:42.112
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it would be different if you had to post it yourself because you wouldn't say things like that.
22:42.373 --> 22:48.459
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've said to Gina before, if I'm fired up about something, I will.
22:49.531 --> 23:00.696
[SPEAKER_02]: type something out and then let it sit overnight before I send it because I need to reflect on it and sometimes because we all get fired up about things.
23:01.297 --> 23:16.024
[SPEAKER_02]: If you write something up and post it, you're acting in the heat of the moment versus a place of clarity and so I wait just to give myself the time to reflect it and
23:17.108 --> 23:21.792
[SPEAKER_02]: Revise it so it doesn't sound maybe as fired up as it is.
23:21.812 --> 23:30.620
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I agree with that if you have to question whether or not, it's going to be taken well or could it be, could it be taken?
23:30.640 --> 23:32.781
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, not you, but it could be taken as mean.
23:32.801 --> 23:34.943
[SPEAKER_01]: This is all right.
23:34.983 --> 23:36.264
[SPEAKER_01]: It's already crossing the line.
23:36.284 --> 23:36.945
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe don't.
23:36.985 --> 23:37.265
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
23:37.666 --> 23:44.571
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you said, take the time that you need to like, come at it with a different headspace, then
23:46.397 --> 23:51.481
[SPEAKER_01]: then you can have a different perspective on it.
23:51.501 --> 24:03.850
[SPEAKER_01]: I also heard a quote recently that I really liked from one of our, one of the ladies that helps us with sports like at the school here.
24:04.130 --> 24:11.776
[SPEAKER_01]: She said that we judge ourselves by our intentions but others judge us based on our actions.
24:13.743 --> 24:20.347
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you write a post, you write a comment, you're not intending to hurt the athlete, maybe.
24:20.507 --> 24:24.810
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not intending for whatever to happen to the person.
24:27.171 --> 24:31.054
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is your actions that are having an effect on the person.
24:31.174 --> 24:39.799
[SPEAKER_01]: So, it's not necessarily, I mean, if we look at a world history, like how many terrible things have happened with the right intention.
24:40.433 --> 24:44.175
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're talking to someone, you can hear inflection in the voice.
24:44.215 --> 24:48.016
[SPEAKER_02]: You can hear like what the intent is and you can understand that.
24:48.476 --> 25:01.542
[SPEAKER_02]: When it's just text, I can't tell you personally how many times I have misunderstood the intention behind text because I couldn't hear the person's voice saying it to me.
25:09.087 --> 25:11.910
[SPEAKER_03]: because this was the root of the bullying.
25:12.050 --> 25:17.655
[SPEAKER_03]: Did you ever say nope, I need to just get rid of skating if I stop skating, the bullying will end.
25:18.513 --> 25:42.940
[SPEAKER_01]: It did cross my mind, yes, and I know for a fact actually that that has been the reason why some of some athletes that I have known have stopped skating because of that, actually, and I know some people that decided not even to go competitive because their older sibling experienced it or their friend experienced it, so they're like, I don't even want to touch that.
25:43.480 --> 25:46.601
[SPEAKER_01]: And I get it, like the,
25:48.443 --> 25:55.149
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's, that's also bullshit, like, that shouldn't be the, that shouldn't be the case.
25:58.792 --> 26:08.420
[SPEAKER_01]: I think at the end of the day for myself though, skating was, and is the hardest sport I've ever experienced.
26:09.632 --> 26:18.215
[SPEAKER_01]: because not only physically, but like you can, you know, bust your ass and then you're needing to look like it's easy.
26:18.235 --> 26:24.136
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to perform facially and it's just like there's so many different layers to it.
26:24.156 --> 26:29.338
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just like crossing the finish line first, which of course takes so much work and whatever or scoring another goal.
26:30.978 --> 26:44.686
[SPEAKER_01]: There's like having to do it with a with a smile and like having to do like it's just there's so many layers to it that I love the challenge and having done competitive sports my whole life even before this and during this time I had I was doing other sports.
26:47.048 --> 26:49.969
[SPEAKER_01]: Like hockey at the time and I love hockey I still love hockey.
26:52.311 --> 26:55.453
[SPEAKER_01]: But one I love the challenge of skating and to.
26:57.917 --> 27:00.478
[SPEAKER_01]: I enjoyed it more than any of these other sports.
27:00.898 --> 27:06.961
[SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't want to step away from that because of other people.
27:07.421 --> 27:08.662
[SPEAKER_01]: If I still wanted to do it.
27:09.462 --> 27:25.429
[SPEAKER_02]: I can tell you that I have had to remove photos from my galleries, from teenage skaters, or whose parents have reached out to me and said, my son's no longer skating.
27:28.387 --> 27:29.387
[SPEAKER_02]: causing a problem.
27:30.968 --> 27:33.989
[SPEAKER_02]: And I always comply when there is a request.
27:34.990 --> 27:39.752
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't get a lot of them now, but I used to get them quite often.
27:41.053 --> 27:45.454
[SPEAKER_02]: 90% were boys, or men who have said, could you please take this down?
27:46.435 --> 27:55.219
[SPEAKER_02]: It makes my heart hurt a little bit that they feel that they can't have that side of themselves out there, because someone's making
27:59.082 --> 28:04.827
[SPEAKER_02]: something that they love so much and over time it can make you hated I think.
28:05.608 --> 28:09.731
[SPEAKER_02]: In many cases they do quit and I'm glad that you didn't quit.
28:09.751 --> 28:20.621
[SPEAKER_02]: That shows a lot of strength to be able to navigate through all of that mental emotional experience without giving up skating.
28:22.512 --> 28:33.759
[SPEAKER_03]: talk a little bit about the stigma surrounding men and boys and skating like definitely saying right there that she had to take down photos from male skaters.
28:34.339 --> 28:43.224
[SPEAKER_03]: Are we seeing anything really change or is there still this stigma surrounding, you know, any boy or any male that skates?
28:43.564 --> 28:47.607
[SPEAKER_03]: Are we seeing anything change in this realm?
28:48.335 --> 28:56.600
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to answer that question because I can only answer it from my experience and I'm not in elementary school, not in junior high anymore, not in high school.
28:56.620 --> 29:08.367
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know what's going on in those areas, but but from my side of things that I do see like a positive shift.
29:09.227 --> 29:19.847
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm happy to hear sometimes when my friends talk about it that they never experienced it, that they, they're male skaters and they experience all of their friends being supportive.
29:19.867 --> 29:20.768
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, wow, that is...
29:22.277 --> 29:24.077
[SPEAKER_01]: It was amazing, like I'm so happy for you.
29:24.798 --> 29:29.939
[SPEAKER_01]: For me, that came in high school at the National Sports School in Calgary when I first went there.
29:31.419 --> 29:32.639
[SPEAKER_01]: I was instantly accepted.
29:33.319 --> 29:36.420
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was zero judgment.
29:36.440 --> 29:44.601
[SPEAKER_01]: There was other athletes that did other sports that have a stigma behind them, diving, gymnastics.
29:45.122 --> 29:48.062
[SPEAKER_01]: And these are all sports that are extremely, extremely
29:53.024 --> 30:03.191
[SPEAKER_01]: But to be in the community where I found the community where I I could connect with other athletes that were experiencing the same thing really really helped me out.
30:05.732 --> 30:12.637
[SPEAKER_01]: Something else I want to mention though is that I wasn't only experiencing this from students.
30:12.837 --> 30:15.619
[SPEAKER_01]: One of my teachers in at that school
30:17.998 --> 30:22.701
[SPEAKER_01]: whether he knew he was doing it or not, I don't know.
30:23.702 --> 30:34.509
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would come in with my late slip from, and I would say like late because of figure skating, and I would come in at the same time as another guy who was late because of hockey.
30:35.530 --> 30:43.496
[SPEAKER_01]: And we would walk into the classroom and the guy, the hockey player would hand over his, I played hockey at the same time, by the way.
30:44.599 --> 30:47.340
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I was just late because of figure skating.
30:48.020 --> 30:58.262
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyways, he hand them the teacher, the slip, and it says, for hockey and he's like, oh my god, like, how was practice?
30:58.282 --> 30:59.002
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how was it?
30:59.022 --> 31:00.242
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, did you score a lot?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I hope it was amazing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Great question.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I did wonder, like, why he's so interested in like, did he score?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a practice.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you should be scoring.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like a game, but, all right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, oh, yeah, like how to see it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then I was like, I was like, okay, you know, my turn, he has, he's ripped it up before he crumpled it up and sit down ball and it just like, I mean at the time, it didn't like register that he is enabling the entire classroom at least in this class to participate in this kind of behavior that like it's okay to do hockey, but it's not okay to figure skate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And like, I don't know if he knew that I also played hockey and the nothing matters, you know what I mean?
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the bullying didn't only stay within the student body, it was also with adults.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, a young kid isn't gonna come out with bullying, they learn it somewhere, you know?
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[SPEAKER_01]: They are, it's taught whether it's from your own parents,
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[SPEAKER_01]: But it's, it's observed behavior that you repeat yourself.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Kids look to adults and people they trust to emulate.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if your teacher is behaving that way, oh, it must be OK, Mr. Smith is doing it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and kids are impressionable.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They're impressionable.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And
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[SPEAKER_02]: having someone with that power as a teacher to display this behavior is not helping the situation at all.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's just making it worse.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, in the second that somebody like laughs about it, then like it's like a positive feedback loop for themselves.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, like the class laughs, so then let me do it, the class will laugh and then it's just like,
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, one, adult should know better.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I look back at my high school experience and think, if I went back with the mindset I have now, I would not have let any of them get away with anything.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It would be interesting.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I would have been more assertive now, no one will want to know now.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But at that age, you're not strong, because you're still building the strength inside you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It took a lot to become, like, who you are today, who I am today.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've had the thoughts of like, oh, if I had the tools that I have now, like, but I have those tools now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So what can I do now to make a difference, reason why I'm doing this, because I, I have zero bullying colors.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And if I see it, there's no, there's no letting it slide now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to talk about the genus question about the stigma because when I when I speak to my friends that didn't experience this bullying, it's interesting like they're they're backgrounds that come from or like where they lived a lot of the athletes that I talk to from example Europe, there's like.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Most of the bullying that I have heard about comes from Canada and the U.S. Not even North America because Mexico is a very, art friendly country.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But Canada and the U.S.
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[SPEAKER_01]: from my experience and from my friends, that's where a lot of the bullying has come from.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The European's, not that it doesn't exist, they're absolutely it does, but the Europeans and even the Russians, like the art and like skating is looked at and admired by men and women and everybody else, you know?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, what is it that gives that stigma here?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, is it media, is it movies, is it's, oh, I don't know what it is, but it is interesting that majority of the ones that have experienced it are from Canada and the States.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So, Paula.
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[SPEAKER_03]: you are sharing your story now.
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[SPEAKER_03]: What has this port been like for you?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Have you been hearing from others?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Who have said thank you for sharing your story?
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm dealing with sort of the same thing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: How has it been since you came out with this last week?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was hoping for positive response and it has surpassed that tenfold.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I've not only received responses from people thanking me for talking about an important subject, you know, but they
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[SPEAKER_01]: they just know that it's important, and there's that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the number of people that have reached out telling me that they are also experiencing bullying or they're going through a really hard time in their lives right now, as far as mental health goes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I have received messages from people saying that they are also going through the same suicidal thoughts that I had experienced back in the day.
36:36.767 --> 36:53.484
[SPEAKER_01]: just talking about it with me or hearing that somebody else had experience that as well and closer than then like you know just on the news across the country that you don't even know the person but like it's it's a lot closer than we realize.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and oftentimes this issue in particular, we don't know how closely will impact us whether it's directly or indirectly until it's too late.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I wrote that in my post on Instagram because I think it's important.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know how closely it will impact us.
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[SPEAKER_01]: until until it's too late, most often and then you're always like, oh, what could I have done?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Did I see the signs and this and that and there always be those questions, but you just live your life treating people with kindness and equally then then you can go to sleep at night, knowing that you know what?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I did do what I could and the person that if the person struggled and went through with something that was out of your control, what did you do?
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[SPEAKER_01]: That wasn't your control.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Did you do good?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we want to thank you Paul for coming on this weekend's gating and talking about this topic.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think we're going to have to do a part two at some point because
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[SPEAKER_02]: there's still so much to flesh out.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And because I think I can speak for Gina, we feel this is a conversation that needs to continue.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's something that needs to stay on the top of people's minds.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it can't just get pushed by the wayside.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, hey, I'd love to come back on, so.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And we didn't even get to talk to you about skating.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I know you're our competing next week or this weekend.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so, and you have a brand new partnership.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So we would love to have you come on and talk about all of that as you get excited and get ready for this new journey in your skating.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'd love to.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I really want to thank both of you for doing this and doing what you do, really appreciate it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It has a positive impact on people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for tuning in to another episode of this week in skating.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, you can keep up with us throughout the week by visiting our website at www.thisweekinscating.com.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Reach out to us via social media or drop us an email at thisweekenscading at gmail.com.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Until next time, have a nice week!
