Looper (2012) - 04 - Mechanical Mailbag

WEBVTT
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I want to redo that. I don't remember where to
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start. We could time travel. We can't though.
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We can't. Welcome to This Should Be a Game, a
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podcast about adaptive media and filtering 90
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% of your life experiences through tabletop role
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-playing games. This is a new type of episode
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we're trying called The Mechanical Mailbag, where
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we are extending the conversation past ourselves,
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past our guests, into our listeners, inviting
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you to talk about, just in small form, what kind
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of stuff you would do to turn the movies that
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we cover into TTRPGs. It's called The Mechanical
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Mailbag. Did I say that? Did I say it twice?
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It's called The Mechanical Mailbag. In case anyone
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was wondering what it's called, it's called The
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Mechanical Mailbag. We're looping. I'm Seda.
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You can find me on Blue Sky at pesedachips .gaygothvibes
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.online. You can find my work generally at gaygothvibes
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.online. And I'm Jess. You can find me on Blue
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Sky as Jess at jessfrom .online. You can find
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my website jessfrom .online or find my games
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anywhere you can find Jumpgate games like onitch
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.io. We put out a call on Blue Sky. saying, hey,
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our next episodes, our next double feature is
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Loopin' Time. We're going to be doing Looper
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and Happy Death Day. Today we are going to cover
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the mechanics and game ideas that people sent
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in about Looper. I think we'll probably just
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hop right into it. And I will say as a disclaimer,
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we're a little far out from the recording days
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of the actual episodes. that game exactly somehow
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from first principles during this well first
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of all it's a proof that we're brilliant and
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that that is the objectively correct game to
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make uh which of course is the point that we're
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trying to make with this show and it's a time
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loop it's thematic we're doing it on purpose
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exactly yes so our first looper entry is from
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coffee johnson hi coffee and coffee said The
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younger and older versions of the same character
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share harm. To elaborate, each character would
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have fictionalized narrative harm. As an example,
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two minor harms, two major harms, and one mortal
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harm. However, any major harm inflicted on the
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younger character would result in minor harm
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for the older character. Given that the older
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character would likely have greater ability than
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their younger version, superior stats, more moves
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to use in a scene, a greater number of resources
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to deploy against the younger character, successful
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attacks on the younger character would impede
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future successes against them. So my immediate
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like I go on a journey sort of reading this where
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I start in a place of, OK, so why are harms so
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central? And in some ways it fits with things
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we already talked about with Looper, where it's
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like, oh, the fact that you are harmed by things
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and then have to recover is actually a significant
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part of this movie. But I feel like this idea.
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really shows its crystal clarity in talking about
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how major harms for the younger character become
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minor harms for the older character. Like that
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feels like such an essence of what is unique
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about using this sort of familiar harm system
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in this time loop context. And the idea that
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like harms that you inflict. boomerang back around
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on you as things that you have to now deal with
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is really really fun to me yeah it immediately
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puts me in mind of a structure that's like you're
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almost playing back -to -back campaigns like
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you play out something with the younger character
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and then you level up your playbook to your older
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version or you're you're recording on both simultaneously
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and then you have to play As the older version,
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you are dealing with the consequences of the
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actions that you took when you were younger.
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The thing I'm trying to think of is, what is
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the most natural fit for the loop there? How
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do we have both characters on screen at the same
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time? Yeah. I feel like that... Are you saying
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how do we have them on screen at the same time
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if this is you passing it to yourself and it's
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not two players playing this simultaneously?
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Or are you just saying in general? I guess in
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general. So mostly the thing I'm thinking is
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that in a lot of ways the most satisfying thing
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here. would be to see a lot of the younger characters
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so that those harms have more time to build up.
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And so then the older one is dealing with more
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consequences. But as I'm thinking about that,
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I'm realizing one of the things that is potentially
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really delicious here, if we have a setup where
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we know that the younger and older versions are
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going to be in conflict, this immediately puts
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a tension on how does the older version... cause
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harm to the younger if they need to without like
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because it it immediately echoes onto them that
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kind of thing just i love this i love this setup
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but um just trying to spitball like you know
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what's what's the structure around it what is
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it what does it add up to that's exactly one
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of the things that i one of the reasons i wanted
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to ask that clarifying question is trying to
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suss out are we on the same questions and i think
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we are um because i was like One of the immediate
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assumptions that is present in this mechanical
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idea, I really zeroed in on the word attack.
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Like, that's not a word that really came up in
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us talking about our looper game. And I'm actually
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a little fascinated. It's not that attacking
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doesn't happen in the movie Rian Johnson's Looper.
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It happens quite a lot, in fact. Yeah, exactly.
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But something I zeroed in on with this answer.
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was the idea that like, it's saying that succeeding
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on attacks against the younger character mean
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that you take minor harm, meaning that you are
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impeded in your future success against them because
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you're weakened in some way. And I found that
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sort of self -defeating aspect really, really
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interesting. But it also just like really puts
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front and center as a mechanic, this like intra
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-self, inter -time violence. And I'm curious.
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what the as you i think pulled us back into with
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this episode a lot where i was like zooming in
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on one specific mechanic which is exactly what
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the mailbag is um but saying what context or
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game structure does this mechanic exist in and
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just like spitballing where to go with this if
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it is really focused on like the conflict between
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these two characters and impeding or stopping
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them in some way i think it would make sense
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for this game to be like pretty goal oriented
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like someone is trying to accomplish something
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in a way that like some of the games we talked
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about for looper were much more about interpretation
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and meaning making and saying this is what happens
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why there's a little bit more of a I am trying
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to make this be the outcome and you are trying
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to make something different to be the outcome.
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That's also really interesting here because like
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this doesn't feel GME or at least not that the
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two time, the people from the different versions
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of the self from different times are not GM and
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player. And therefore it's putting two players
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doing opposed. roles or opposed something trying
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to have different storied outcomes. And it is
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not that there are not games that do that. I
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make games that do that. But rather that it is
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a less common thing in TTRPGs than like one person
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who the GM is responsible for presenting the
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obstacle and knowing it will be overcome. And
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so I'm very intrigued about what it looks like
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to have two players here. both gunning for their
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outcomes and then having to negotiate where the
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story goes. Yeah, I think it would make a really
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great duet game where you're trying to accomplish
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something. I do think that there is room for
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it being GME. I think especially if you go the
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route of having more than one version of the
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younger self and the GM is playing the oldest.
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basically and then there's sort of this like
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uh weird thing where it's like this group combat
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where everybody is holding back a little bit
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this this this would you would need a reason
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no i was gonna say you would need a reason for
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the younger ones not to just kill the older ones
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but you actually don't need that because it's
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just like in this setup essentially the gm is
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playing a final boss yeah it is just like You're
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trying to defeat, but they are just so much stronger
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than you. And they are in an interesting position
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where they can't just kill you because that would
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kill them. Yes. So it's about this like weird
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negotiation. This person who is like so much
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more powerful than you and who you are in their
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way, but they're just kind of having to, they
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want to convince you. yeah to stop and like get
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on the same page which actually that does like
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framing that moves me back towards the weird
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duet situation because i think that that could
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be a really interesting tension there but i could
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see for the gm version i imagine it is a climax
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of a longer game you know they're you're playing
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the younger version and then Whatever. That's
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that's sort of like the big final conflict. I'm
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also really intrigued playing with the GM version
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a little bit. The way that that creates a game
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with a sense of attrition against the GM, because
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like it notes in this idea, the more harm the
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GM in this case inflicts upon the players. The
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weaker the GM's position as the game goes on,
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the things that they're rolling or whatever are
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less likely to succeed. And it puts me in mind,
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I wish I could pull a game off the top of my
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head. We'll see if there's one that happens for
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you. But like, there are some games that do a
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little more to mechanize the GM's resources,
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where like, if the GM has to have a token or
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something to make a certain action on the story,
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they can't just... Triangle agency. yes there
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we go chaos yeah yeah yes exactly um and so the
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idea of that sort of setup um but it's this really
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long -term attrition whereas the gm is inflicting
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things on players they are weakening their ability
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to act and all the players have to do is like
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outlast the gm like the more you try to stop
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me the less you can stop me until we win Yeah,
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it definitely encourages a sort of I'm a little
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birthday boy behavior from players. Like, there's
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a little bit of a, like, you want to hit me?
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You want to hit me? No, you don't. Come on. Come
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on. Come on, you know? Oh, that's so fun. Yeah,
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I think that that's great. And then in the duet
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version, we have a lot more negotiation. And
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a lot more. And that does, I think you're right,
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fit really well to this, like, come on, convince
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me, get me on board. I'm almost interested in
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it, not literally a Firebrands game, but a little
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bit of a Firebrands structure, specifically just
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the idea of having this game where you are choosing
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these different scenes of negotiation and conflict.
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Like I'm thinking of the Firebrands minigames,
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a chase and a conversation over dinner. Like
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if you are playing a game. You're these two,
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like two people, younger and older self. Maybe
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even, ooh, if it is a Firebrands game and opening
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that up to more than two people could be interesting
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if you do, again, have people who are playing
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different versions of the, like you have the
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oldest version going to the kid version and trying
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to convince them of something. And then you have
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them like fighting with the 30 year old version
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or whatever. But specifically like the structure
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I was thinking was I would love to see, okay,
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we play out a scene. where we are shooting at
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each other. Cool. We did that scene. Now let's
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play out the diner. We're having a conversation.
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I'm trying to convince you to my point of view,
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all that kind of thing. And just like building
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up a little bit of momentum with these different
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scenes that you can choose from based on what's
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appropriate while working towards your big goals,
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I think could be really, really cool with that.
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And like that. It diverges already from Firebrands
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in that it would have a lot more mechanical tracking
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of harm and that kind of thing. But I think that
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the integration of those things could be really
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interesting. Yeah. And going in a sort of similar
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direction there on what if we took a thing and
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added mechanical tracking of harm. I'm thinking
00:14:38.629 --> 00:14:43.429
about sort of prompt style games that will ask
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you, for example, at the end of a scene, were
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you convinced? Like, did the character successfully
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convince you? I know I've referenced this a few
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times, but just thinking about Fiasco a little
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bit in its, like, did this scene go well for
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this character? And I think that there's elements
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of the game Last Shooting, the duet game, where
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you're asked to make some calls on, like, how
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did this go or how did you feel about this? To
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draw the through line that I'm trying to draw,
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games where you are expected to answer is blank
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true. And you're not supposed to always answer
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what is best for you. I think it's the distinction
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I'm trying to make from your traditional trad
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games where you're like trying to fight for success.
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There are some games that make you say at the
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end, OK. Was this your wanted outcome or was
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it the outcome you didn't want? And that is going
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to be true. And you need to step out of your
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player role almost and evaluate that. And where
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I am going with that idea is the idea of like
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one player being like, no, you didn't convince
00:15:58.419 --> 00:16:01.000
me. And then the other player has to be like,
00:16:01.100 --> 00:16:05.399
OK, then, well, I inflict harm. That harm, that
00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:08.700
violence is the language you resort to when you
00:16:08.700 --> 00:16:11.259
didn't get your way any other way. And so you
00:16:11.259 --> 00:16:13.240
like do things and then the character has to
00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:16.960
be like, no, I'm on board. You were right. Or
00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:19.820
that has to be, no, he's still going to work
00:16:19.820 --> 00:16:22.440
against you. And then you're like, OK, then,
00:16:22.539 --> 00:16:24.179
well, I'll shoot you in the leg and I'll deal
00:16:24.179 --> 00:16:27.720
with the fact that I now have a limp in an ongoing
00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:31.600
way. So you're coming down on the side of torture
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:36.220
being ineffective. uh way to uh convince somebody
00:16:36.220 --> 00:16:40.840
of something so it's not supposed to be an effective
00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:44.700
method of convincing so much as like i am going
00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:48.080
to use any means to prevent you from being capable
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:52.820
of this outcome or whatever and I want that to
00:16:52.820 --> 00:16:55.100
be convincing you. But if it isn't, I'm just
00:16:55.100 --> 00:16:56.659
going to make sure that you don't reach this
00:16:56.659 --> 00:16:58.519
place in time. I'm going to make sure you're
00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:00.480
too hurt to accomplish what you want to accomplish.
00:17:00.779 --> 00:17:02.539
Yeah, one of the things that I think could tie
00:17:02.539 --> 00:17:05.079
really well into that is, I think it's the game
00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:11.099
Follow, where you are on a quest and everyone
00:17:11.099 --> 00:17:14.670
has their motivations and... you have different
00:17:14.670 --> 00:17:17.349
colored rocks that you put in a bag. Let's say
00:17:17.349 --> 00:17:20.289
it's like, hey, if you think that your group
00:17:20.289 --> 00:17:23.930
is well -prepared, put in a black rock. If you
00:17:23.930 --> 00:17:26.470
personally want the mission to succeed, put in
00:17:26.470 --> 00:17:29.210
a black rock, otherwise put in a white for either
00:17:29.210 --> 00:17:32.690
of those. And then when you are determining how
00:17:32.690 --> 00:17:36.109
it went, you're pulling from the full pool. So
00:17:36.109 --> 00:17:38.829
if everyone's like, yeah, we're well -prepared
00:17:38.829 --> 00:17:43.150
and... I want it to succeed then your pool has
00:17:43.150 --> 00:17:44.910
a lot of black rocks in it so you're more likely
00:17:44.910 --> 00:17:47.609
to succeed but if people are like either no we
00:17:47.609 --> 00:17:50.329
are not ready or I hate this and so I'm probably
00:17:50.329 --> 00:17:52.549
not going to be contributing 100 you have more
00:17:52.549 --> 00:17:55.029
white rocks and so you are more likely to fail
00:17:55.029 --> 00:17:57.690
I think that there's a lot there when you're
00:17:57.690 --> 00:18:00.869
thinking of like because um one of the reasons
00:18:00.869 --> 00:18:05.109
I'm bringing this up is that negotiation not
00:18:05.109 --> 00:18:09.750
working is really hard to sustain in role play
00:18:09.750 --> 00:18:14.549
because you need a reason to keep trying and
00:18:14.549 --> 00:18:16.970
of course you have your goal but like the pacing
00:18:16.970 --> 00:18:20.369
of it keeping that energy up can be really really
00:18:20.369 --> 00:18:24.130
hard and so thinking of ways that it could be
00:18:24.130 --> 00:18:29.890
like small moments maybe and like yeah sort of
00:18:29.890 --> 00:18:33.670
uh different ways to make that feel more satisfying
00:18:33.670 --> 00:18:37.059
and have a little bit of like more factors i
00:18:37.059 --> 00:18:39.380
guess have have a couple more factors that isn't
00:18:39.380 --> 00:18:42.319
just like totally yes i agree it is like okay
00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:45.319
you agree well that is one thing that will contribute
00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:47.660
to whether i'm going to shoot you in the leg
00:18:47.660 --> 00:18:51.660
now yeah i think the the the mechanic there from
00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:53.500
follow is exactly what i was looking for when
00:18:53.500 --> 00:18:54.960
like do you have a reference for this because
00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:58.119
i love you got your little exit survey uh and
00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:00.720
it it determines yeah the factors that go into
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:05.299
that outcome i also this made me think about
00:19:05.299 --> 00:19:07.920
something that's maybe really out of left field
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:13.380
here, but I want to try going for, which is as
00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:16.319
I went through an example that felt very in line
00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:18.940
with the movie and some of this discussion of
00:19:18.940 --> 00:19:21.720
harm, I also felt myself get uncomfortable, which
00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:25.579
is saying like, okay, you, I shoot you in the
00:19:25.579 --> 00:19:27.880
leg. Now you have a limp the rest of your life
00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:32.759
because that gets used in shitty disability tropes
00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:37.430
all the time. And I was like, am I playing into
00:19:37.430 --> 00:19:41.970
that in a negative way there? And then I started
00:19:41.970 --> 00:19:44.230
thinking about, well, if we're talking about
00:19:44.230 --> 00:19:49.349
how harm on the body or the mind is something
00:19:49.349 --> 00:19:52.450
that lasts to your older character, there's also
00:19:52.450 --> 00:19:55.329
a bunch of interesting things to say about disability
00:19:55.329 --> 00:19:59.289
there in a way that's very difficult. And it
00:19:59.289 --> 00:20:03.529
had me thinking about... the concept in disability
00:20:03.529 --> 00:20:08.829
justice that everyone is temporarily abled. Absolutely
00:20:08.829 --> 00:20:12.670
what I was thinking as well. Yes, exactly. And
00:20:12.670 --> 00:20:16.490
so like the version of this game that's actually
00:20:16.490 --> 00:20:19.410
really about themes of disability and thinking
00:20:19.410 --> 00:20:22.789
about like, what does it mean to be the older
00:20:22.789 --> 00:20:25.150
version of yourself that understands that you
00:20:25.150 --> 00:20:28.650
are temporarily abled and being confronted with
00:20:28.650 --> 00:20:32.500
that? immediately as your younger self i don't
00:20:32.500 --> 00:20:34.680
know maybe that's not a fun exploration for the
00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:36.980
podcast but i'm just really compelled by the
00:20:36.980 --> 00:20:40.680
idea that like this could center that experience
00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:42.559
of disability instead of using that trope in
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:47.599
a negative way actually use it to force confrontation
00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:50.279
with that perspective from disability justice
00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:54.160
yeah i think that there is definitely something
00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:55.700
there i think it's one of those things that is
00:20:55.700 --> 00:20:59.900
like It's an interesting meditation and I'm not
00:20:59.900 --> 00:21:01.700
sure that a game could deliver on it because
00:21:01.700 --> 00:21:05.859
it is something that we already don't do. That
00:21:05.859 --> 00:21:12.700
is not a concept that is well known. I'm thinking
00:21:12.700 --> 00:21:15.400
specifically from my perspective of if I could
00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:20.259
talk to 20 -year -old me and be like, hey, whenever
00:21:20.259 --> 00:21:24.269
you severely sprain... an ankle or even break
00:21:24.269 --> 00:21:27.069
your foot or something like that please fucking
00:21:27.069 --> 00:21:31.789
take care of it because in 15 years you are going
00:21:31.789 --> 00:21:33.910
to feel it you're not going to feel it now you
00:21:33.910 --> 00:21:35.369
are going to go back to work you are going to
00:21:35.369 --> 00:21:38.650
work like a dipshit 14 hour shifts on a broken
00:21:38.650 --> 00:21:42.650
foot because you're stupid um and had no choice
00:21:42.650 --> 00:21:47.089
not that mad at you but like you know i did that
00:21:47.089 --> 00:21:49.450
and i didn't feel the consequences for a while
00:21:49.450 --> 00:21:51.910
yeah And now I feel more of the consequences.
00:21:52.009 --> 00:21:54.869
And that is just true. And kind of everyone goes
00:21:54.869 --> 00:21:57.849
through that. Even me as somebody who has had
00:21:57.849 --> 00:22:01.210
chronic pain since I was very, very young. So
00:22:01.210 --> 00:22:03.630
I should have a little bit more awareness of
00:22:03.630 --> 00:22:06.630
that kind of thing. You still can't convince
00:22:06.630 --> 00:22:09.390
young people that. time exists you know what
00:22:09.390 --> 00:22:11.849
i mean and so like there are certain ways where
00:22:11.849 --> 00:22:14.150
i think that that is a game the game you're talking
00:22:14.150 --> 00:22:16.930
about is one that is an interesting exploration
00:22:16.930 --> 00:22:21.390
that wouldn't necessarily be able to pierce the
00:22:21.390 --> 00:22:23.529
veil of the thing that it's shining the spotlight
00:22:23.529 --> 00:22:26.269
at that was pierce veil spotlight that was too
00:22:26.269 --> 00:22:29.809
many different metaphors for what it's doing
00:22:29.809 --> 00:22:32.730
but i think that's the case and i also think
00:22:32.730 --> 00:22:37.329
that a lot of cool feelings e tt rpgs are doing
00:22:37.329 --> 00:22:38.869
that and that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist
00:22:38.869 --> 00:22:41.130
you know what i mean we're getting into pretty
00:22:41.130 --> 00:22:44.210
lyric game territory there um also this is the
00:22:44.210 --> 00:22:46.609
most aggressively in our 30s this podcast has
00:22:46.609 --> 00:22:50.210
ever been sure okay thank you coffee that was
00:22:50.210 --> 00:22:53.769
awesome i loved that's that's a great idea and
00:22:53.769 --> 00:22:55.589
there's clearly as you can tell from our conversation
00:22:55.589 --> 00:22:58.369
a lot of different sort of directions that you
00:22:58.369 --> 00:23:02.029
could take exactly that so let's check out our
00:23:02.029 --> 00:23:05.359
next one Hi, it's Benjamin Gray from Roleplay
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:08.039
Retcon. He, him, you can call me Ben. The cool
00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:11.019
thing about Looper is it has clear and very specific
00:23:11.019 --> 00:23:14.099
classes already built into the movie. There's
00:23:14.099 --> 00:23:16.200
the Loopers with their shotguns, the Gatmen.
00:23:16.700 --> 00:23:20.039
You can have psychics, maybe add in time scientists,
00:23:20.140 --> 00:23:22.039
the only class that can actually work the time
00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:24.700
machines. The Loopers are the really alluring
00:23:24.700 --> 00:23:27.099
thing to me, though, because they're actually
00:23:27.099 --> 00:23:30.430
at the bottom of a hierarchy. in the movie uh
00:23:30.430 --> 00:23:32.390
and they have like very limited and specific
00:23:32.390 --> 00:23:36.170
skills in the movie but you could sacrifice like
00:23:36.170 --> 00:23:39.990
some strengths for one big buff which is they
00:23:39.990 --> 00:23:44.269
cannot be killed for real until they are executed
00:23:44.269 --> 00:23:46.849
because their death is already written in the
00:23:46.849 --> 00:23:49.109
stone which is not really quite how the movie
00:23:49.109 --> 00:23:51.069
works but if it can be consistent i'm also allowed
00:23:51.069 --> 00:23:54.240
to be inconsistent You could also like have some
00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:57.940
prompts about your future body. Like you say
00:23:57.940 --> 00:23:59.980
you're missing some digits or you have some scars
00:23:59.980 --> 00:24:02.000
and those things will have to come up sometime
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:04.460
in the course of the story. Love the show. You
00:24:04.460 --> 00:24:06.799
guys are doing great. Thanks, Ben. Yeah, it was
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:10.839
delightful to listen to. Yeah, there's so much
00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:13.099
in there that I love and so much that I know
00:24:13.099 --> 00:24:14.819
came up in our conversation, which makes me really
00:24:14.819 --> 00:24:18.440
happy. One thing, like there was a game that
00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:21.339
I was working on very lightly for a little while.
00:24:21.819 --> 00:24:24.940
where I really wanted, I think it was specifically
00:24:24.940 --> 00:24:28.759
a three -person game. It was about fucking robot
00:24:28.759 --> 00:24:32.210
bullshit, whatever, that like... I think it was
00:24:32.210 --> 00:24:35.049
a game about robots and grief as two of the things
00:24:35.049 --> 00:24:37.250
that I think and talk about the most, where there
00:24:37.250 --> 00:24:39.009
was something like you had the robot's creator
00:24:39.009 --> 00:24:41.789
who is now dead. You had the robot. And then
00:24:41.789 --> 00:24:45.289
I think you had the person that the robot was
00:24:45.289 --> 00:24:47.549
based off of, like the personality that their
00:24:47.549 --> 00:24:50.049
AI was or something. I don't even remember. But
00:24:50.049 --> 00:24:52.150
one of the things that I was really trying to
00:24:52.150 --> 00:24:57.819
do in it was mess with how different. classes
00:24:57.819 --> 00:25:00.599
used dice like how all three of them it will
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:02.940
shock you with how i constantly steer this podcast
00:25:02.940 --> 00:25:05.859
but i'm really interested in asymmetric gameplay
00:25:05.859 --> 00:25:10.380
in very specific ways and one of them i think
00:25:10.380 --> 00:25:12.940
it was like the professor who was the person
00:25:12.940 --> 00:25:16.440
who built the robot at the very beginning of
00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:19.079
the game they roll all of the dice they will
00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:21.720
roll for the entire game so it was like here
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:27.559
roll 30 d6s you now get to pick during the course
00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:30.400
of this game anytime you would roll grab one
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.359
of the die you already rolled you know like your
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:36.619
fate is set in stone you're dead whatever something
00:25:36.619 --> 00:25:40.759
like that here is so fun to me for specifically
00:25:40.759 --> 00:25:43.420
the thing that ben brought up of like your character
00:25:43.420 --> 00:25:46.759
has this one specific superpower they can't die
00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:49.480
stuff will happen to them but they can't die
00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:55.250
we know that and the fate aspect of like You're
00:25:55.250 --> 00:25:57.230
going to get a scar at some point that you don't
00:25:57.230 --> 00:26:00.769
have. Fate the concept, not fate the game. That
00:26:00.769 --> 00:26:04.829
doesn't go in the links yet. Yes, exactly. And
00:26:04.829 --> 00:26:07.769
I think this is in part like I, you know, I understand
00:26:07.769 --> 00:26:10.750
that there is satisfaction for a lot of people
00:26:10.750 --> 00:26:14.069
in, and sometimes for me, in knowing that something
00:26:14.069 --> 00:26:16.529
will happen and working towards it to explain
00:26:16.529 --> 00:26:19.769
it. But I like the idea of being able to bring
00:26:19.769 --> 00:26:23.390
in. like push that even a little harder with
00:26:23.390 --> 00:26:25.950
like you are faded in certain ways maybe it's
00:26:25.950 --> 00:26:27.849
like at the beginning of a scene an action scene
00:26:27.849 --> 00:26:31.690
roll all your dice you know like not not not
00:26:31.690 --> 00:26:35.390
as long term but just like using those different
00:26:35.390 --> 00:26:39.970
disparities as ben laid them out and really putting
00:26:39.970 --> 00:26:42.880
the flavor of that in How you roll dice, how
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:46.299
you are allowed to roll dice to resolve stuff.
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:47.900
I think there's something there that could be
00:26:47.900 --> 00:26:50.299
really fun. And I'm immediately just thinking
00:26:50.299 --> 00:26:52.279
about like really good Powered by the Apocalypse
00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:55.619
games that have like a very strong set of regular
00:26:55.619 --> 00:26:57.799
moves that everyone has access to. And then your
00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:00.460
playbook is like, what are the weird ways that
00:27:00.460 --> 00:27:02.799
you manipulate the rules? What are the times
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:05.119
that your character has the domain to step in
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:08.019
and say, I changed the story in this way? And
00:27:08.019 --> 00:27:11.180
I think this is, like, an instance of that, and
00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:13.380
perhaps with a really strong, like, signature
00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:16.940
move per class. I'm also thinking about a game
00:27:16.940 --> 00:27:19.339
that I don't truly know that much about, but
00:27:19.339 --> 00:27:22.240
the Die RPG. And everyone's got their, like,
00:27:22.660 --> 00:27:25.619
die that is assigned to them. And so there's
00:27:25.619 --> 00:27:28.920
just, there's something. obviously on the face
00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:32.099
of it so compelling about that and so what does
00:27:32.099 --> 00:27:35.079
the choice of what type of dice and how you use
00:27:35.079 --> 00:27:39.259
them mean for your character is great and it
00:27:39.259 --> 00:27:41.539
also goes back to conversations I think we had
00:27:41.539 --> 00:27:44.440
with Sebastian about like what's your gun and
00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:48.079
what does it mean for you and how do we translate
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:51.200
this is my gun and this is what it's like to
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:54.450
this is my die and this is what it's like Right.
00:27:54.970 --> 00:27:59.950
Like, can we capture, can we add meaning to the
00:27:59.950 --> 00:28:02.509
number of sides on your dice or the way that
00:28:02.509 --> 00:28:06.009
you roll dice that makes it feel like your signature
00:28:06.009 --> 00:28:09.630
weapon is also really fun to me. I wonder if
00:28:09.630 --> 00:28:11.869
there's something as simple as like the number
00:28:11.869 --> 00:28:15.890
of bullets in the chamber or something like that.
00:28:16.009 --> 00:28:20.819
Yeah, absolutely. holy shit i also really want
00:28:20.819 --> 00:28:23.000
to call out ben's inclusion of like the time
00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:26.440
scientist as like the person who does it particularly
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:29.539
because like obviously that isn't something that
00:28:29.539 --> 00:28:32.960
the game game that the movie focuses it on literally
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.460
at all one of the things i love about the idea
00:28:35.460 --> 00:28:39.259
of bringing that into a ttrpg version of it is
00:28:39.259 --> 00:28:42.460
that that is giving an axis of manipulation for
00:28:42.460 --> 00:28:46.640
the loopers that they if they know that the time
00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:50.069
scientists exist and they can interact with them
00:28:50.069 --> 00:28:54.190
that is now somebody who they can go and beat
00:28:54.190 --> 00:28:56.950
up or intimidate to change something like if
00:28:56.950 --> 00:29:00.730
they're like hey i've like i want things to be
00:29:00.730 --> 00:29:03.049
different i don't like how this is working you
00:29:03.049 --> 00:29:04.730
need to send me somewhere else or you need to
00:29:04.730 --> 00:29:06.809
stop sending people to me or whatever adding
00:29:06.809 --> 00:29:10.549
another little like lever for them to pull i
00:29:10.549 --> 00:29:14.789
think is uh very powerful and would be really
00:29:14.789 --> 00:29:18.990
fun Yeah, and when we're thinking again, as we
00:29:18.990 --> 00:29:22.970
often do, of asymmetric gameplay with no GM,
00:29:23.250 --> 00:29:24.930
one of the things that I think you've said a
00:29:24.930 --> 00:29:26.730
couple times in this podcast is how useful it
00:29:26.730 --> 00:29:30.490
is to assign domains of the story that different
00:29:30.490 --> 00:29:34.990
people have more narrative control over. And
00:29:34.990 --> 00:29:39.950
the idea of... Boiling that down also to like
00:29:39.950 --> 00:29:42.769
very specific mechanics in a way that, again,
00:29:42.789 --> 00:29:44.569
is reminding me a bit of some Powered by the
00:29:44.569 --> 00:29:47.029
Apocalypse stuff. Just the idea that like, OK,
00:29:47.269 --> 00:29:50.910
I want to change the timeline. I've got to get
00:29:50.910 --> 00:29:54.829
or coerce or threaten or convince the time scientists
00:29:54.829 --> 00:29:58.069
to get on my mind. I want to hunt someone down.
00:29:58.549 --> 00:30:03.109
I got to get the Gatmen on my side. Like my playbook
00:30:03.109 --> 00:30:07.509
does not give me a tool for doing X. Your playbook
00:30:07.509 --> 00:30:10.369
does. You have domain over the story in that
00:30:10.369 --> 00:30:14.569
way. I've got to find a way to threaten, coerce,
00:30:14.569 --> 00:30:19.210
convince you to aid me. It's so fun. Yeah, I
00:30:19.210 --> 00:30:22.529
like a lot of that. I think especially in a slightly
00:30:22.529 --> 00:30:27.029
more traditionally structured game. I think you're
00:30:27.029 --> 00:30:30.970
totally right that a PBTA structure feels like
00:30:30.970 --> 00:30:34.140
it could be really fruitful. One of the examples
00:30:34.140 --> 00:30:37.160
that I gave in sort of our call for submissions
00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:42.079
was a like, hey, talk about the playbooks that
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:44.299
you would make for a Forge in the Dark game that
00:30:44.299 --> 00:30:46.299
is based on Looper. You know, some mildly psychic
00:30:46.299 --> 00:30:48.200
dirtbags that are cleaning up after a future
00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:51.480
that hasn't happened yet. And that feels like
00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:54.339
it would play really nicely in this. And one
00:30:54.339 --> 00:30:55.960
of the things I actually love about that is that
00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.920
a lot of Forge in the Dark games like dice pool
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:03.529
shit, right? So it's playing in the same... where
00:31:03.529 --> 00:31:08.410
you can have classes be able to manipulate different
00:31:08.410 --> 00:31:13.970
aspects of the dice pool or of position and effect
00:31:13.970 --> 00:31:19.190
based on where they are in the timeline, that
00:31:19.190 --> 00:31:21.410
kind of thing. I think there are a lot of little
00:31:21.410 --> 00:31:24.750
things in there that are really well set up to
00:31:24.750 --> 00:31:29.930
be pulled on in different, complicated, fun ways.
00:31:30.940 --> 00:31:33.119
I am immediately, when you start talking Blades
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:37.140
in the Dark position and effect, so charmed by
00:31:37.140 --> 00:31:41.079
the, like, trade -offs that that introduces.
00:31:41.779 --> 00:31:46.119
Where, like, you know, up your position by one
00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:51.539
to up your effect by two. Because relationships
00:31:51.539 --> 00:31:56.259
to risk, I feel, are actually really big in Looper.
00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:59.500
Like, what do different characters have on the
00:31:59.500 --> 00:32:06.359
line? um and so the idea of like some people
00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:09.640
can make a bigger impact if they take more risk
00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:14.000
or even if we go a little more multi -dimensional
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:17.259
than blades in the dark does or or or sort of
00:32:17.259 --> 00:32:19.680
go a little more off the fortune of the dark
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:25.099
playbook playbook um we can start talking about
00:32:25.450 --> 00:32:28.410
where does the risk happen and so instead of
00:32:28.410 --> 00:32:31.430
just position and effect you've got like who
00:32:31.430 --> 00:32:34.130
is being put in this position or who are you
00:32:34.130 --> 00:32:37.150
diverting this harm onto um and in the movies
00:32:37.150 --> 00:32:40.369
this is a lot of women who don't get voices but
00:32:40.369 --> 00:32:44.789
like the idea that different classes can shove
00:32:44.789 --> 00:32:48.109
their harm onto someone else or can't shove their
00:32:48.109 --> 00:32:51.309
harm onto someone else um is really interesting
00:32:51.309 --> 00:32:53.900
to me Yeah, I think that that would probably
00:32:53.900 --> 00:32:57.240
come into play in sort of your, or I could really
00:32:57.240 --> 00:33:01.619
easily see that coming into play in your devil's
00:33:01.619 --> 00:33:05.339
bargain or stress resistance kind of things.
00:33:05.380 --> 00:33:08.559
Oh, totally, yes. The ways that you mitigate
00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:11.960
failures become very different for each classes.
00:33:12.099 --> 00:33:16.900
I also think the concept of having flashbacks
00:33:16.900 --> 00:33:23.750
in a time loop based game. It feels incorrect
00:33:23.750 --> 00:33:27.529
to me, but in some ways it's because it's too
00:33:27.529 --> 00:33:30.710
appropriate. So there needs to be something there
00:33:30.710 --> 00:33:34.750
that like. Maybe it is just that it is it is
00:33:34.750 --> 00:33:37.430
literal. Maybe we're literalizing the flashback
00:33:37.430 --> 00:33:39.950
rather than saying like, OK, wait, I actually
00:33:39.950 --> 00:33:42.069
was prepared for this. I'm spending a stress,
00:33:42.250 --> 00:33:45.029
whatever. Here's how I prepared for it. Maybe
00:33:45.029 --> 00:33:50.680
it is like you can't do a flashback unless. Maybe
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:53.480
you're spending future stress. You can do a flashback,
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:55.640
but the stress doesn't hit you right away. The
00:33:55.640 --> 00:33:58.960
stress hits you when you can get back to HQ and
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.160
go to the time scientist and be like, I need
00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:05.720
you to, maybe you need to play out the bad version
00:34:05.720 --> 00:34:09.119
first or something. Yes. Oh, that's so good.
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:10.860
There's a lot of different, like, which I know
00:34:10.860 --> 00:34:15.420
is part of how at least Blade suggests. in its
00:34:15.420 --> 00:34:18.380
examples if not it's literal here's how to play
00:34:18.380 --> 00:34:21.199
the game like give both first like tell say what
00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:24.219
is bad is going to happen in a fairly fully formed
00:34:24.219 --> 00:34:26.480
way and then you know figure out what happened
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:28.159
instead that kind of thing i think there's a
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:31.659
lot of room there to really this push around
00:34:31.659 --> 00:34:35.920
the mechanics uh which i think forged in the
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:39.659
dark as a framework is as widespread as it is
00:34:39.659 --> 00:34:42.500
in part because it has a lot of different parts
00:34:42.500 --> 00:34:44.980
that you can push around to mean different things
00:34:44.980 --> 00:34:48.219
based on your theming, which is an enormous credit
00:34:48.219 --> 00:34:52.519
to it, in my opinion. 100%. I'm also reminded
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:54.659
once again of Triangle Agency and something you
00:34:54.659 --> 00:34:57.699
were saying there of like, you can still accomplish
00:34:57.699 --> 00:35:00.980
the same thing. But we're going to narratively
00:35:00.980 --> 00:35:04.699
restrict how you are forced to justify it in
00:35:04.699 --> 00:35:07.219
that, like, you can't directly do the thing.
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:12.360
You have to change events so that. Like with
00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:15.980
Ask the Agency where you are saying, OK, the
00:35:15.980 --> 00:35:18.860
agency is literally changing reality. Here is
00:35:18.860 --> 00:35:22.639
the chain of events, the causal chain. that makes
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:25.800
it so that I am falling off a very tall building
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:28.639
right now. Rather than landing on the hard cement,
00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:30.960
I'm going to land on a delivery of pillows that
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:34.460
is happening right now because of whatever, going
00:35:34.460 --> 00:35:37.500
back as far as possible. Yes, exactly. And so
00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:40.780
then taking your sort of Forge in the Dark flashbacks
00:35:40.780 --> 00:35:44.539
and saying, okay, you can do that, but it's not
00:35:44.539 --> 00:35:47.119
because you prepared. It's because you played
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:50.820
out the other timeline and then... This one happened
00:35:50.820 --> 00:35:53.539
instead. So do that. Play it out. Tell me what
00:35:53.539 --> 00:35:56.099
that looked like. That's the only way you can
00:35:56.099 --> 00:35:58.360
do flashbacks. It feels like that restriction
00:35:58.360 --> 00:36:00.139
just coming in a slightly different way and order.
00:36:00.659 --> 00:36:05.099
Yeah, I like that. Our next submission is from
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:09.900
friend and guest of the show, Dora. Unless there's
00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:11.860
another Dora, which I think can't possibly be
00:36:11.860 --> 00:36:15.500
true. If there's another Dora D. Rogers, I will
00:36:15.500 --> 00:36:19.920
be incredibly impressed. Hi, it's Dora. The best
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.420
part of Looper is the bit where his friend gets
00:36:22.420 --> 00:36:26.119
captured. Sorry, his friend's younger self is
00:36:26.119 --> 00:36:30.460
captured and then mutilated to affect the older
00:36:30.460 --> 00:36:34.539
self. Horrible scene. Totally fascinating. It
00:36:34.539 --> 00:36:36.480
actually reminds me of something from, and I'm
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:39.199
sorry for a very millennial reference, Invader
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:41.880
Zim, the 90s cartoon. I didn't even watch it.
00:36:41.960 --> 00:36:44.079
But this happens in an episode a little less
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:48.199
gruesomely. So here's my pitch. The whole table.
00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:53.739
goes around and makes a character uh makes a
00:36:53.739 --> 00:36:57.099
fully fleshed out character with friends allies
00:36:57.099 --> 00:37:01.440
abilities uh like you could probably be flexible
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:03.900
about the kind of system it's probably something
00:37:03.900 --> 00:37:06.980
custom we might want it to be somewhat reminiscent
00:37:06.980 --> 00:37:11.180
of fate i feel like fate is very good about suggesting
00:37:11.180 --> 00:37:14.980
details about somebody um you know because you
00:37:14.980 --> 00:37:17.400
have the aspect system that allows you to name
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:21.019
their traits very directly but anyway you you
00:37:21.019 --> 00:37:23.840
create a character with both a history and a
00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:27.340
set of abilities And it's something really cool.
00:37:27.420 --> 00:37:29.380
Somebody who could make a big difference in the
00:37:29.380 --> 00:37:31.280
world. And then you talk about what their arc
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:33.400
is, what their hero's journey is, what their
00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:36.519
career is. And then as a table, you go around
00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:39.119
and turn by turn, you change one event in that
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:42.840
character's backstory and say what part of them
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:51.570
it takes away. And then you feel bad. Absolutely.
00:37:52.050 --> 00:37:55.230
Oh, thank you, Dee. That was so good to hear
00:37:55.230 --> 00:38:00.230
from you. I did watch Invader Zim. I do, as a
00:38:00.230 --> 00:38:03.250
30 or 40 year old person, own socks from Hot
00:38:03.250 --> 00:38:06.650
Topic that have Zim and Grr on them that I rarely
00:38:06.650 --> 00:38:09.510
wear in public because it's just kind of a lot
00:38:09.510 --> 00:38:12.230
to deal with, knowing that I am that person.
00:38:12.429 --> 00:38:15.769
I don't remember that happening in an Invader
00:38:15.769 --> 00:38:18.670
Zim episode. Am I going to rewatch Invader Zim?
00:38:19.230 --> 00:38:25.250
In 2026? Possibly. I possibly am. This idea rules.
00:38:25.449 --> 00:38:28.710
We do, in fact, have to link Fate in the episode
00:38:28.710 --> 00:38:30.650
description now. Yeah, we got there now. Very
00:38:30.650 --> 00:38:36.650
funny. I like... There's the... I don't know
00:38:36.650 --> 00:38:39.590
what... There isn't really a term for this that
00:38:39.590 --> 00:38:41.650
I'm familiar with, but games where you're not
00:38:41.650 --> 00:38:43.670
playing a character, you're just talking about
00:38:43.670 --> 00:38:46.949
stuff, they're often world -building games. or
00:38:46.949 --> 00:38:51.690
map making games and that kind of thing, taking
00:38:51.690 --> 00:38:55.030
that approach to this, where you are all talking
00:38:55.030 --> 00:38:58.750
about one specific character and just nudging
00:38:58.750 --> 00:39:03.449
them from a, not an objective point of view,
00:39:03.449 --> 00:39:06.510
like objectivity, but objective as in not subjective,
00:39:06.690 --> 00:39:08.889
as in you are not playing a character with a
00:39:08.889 --> 00:39:10.670
motivation, but you're just sort of talking the
00:39:10.670 --> 00:39:14.150
story out is really, really interesting. Yeah.
00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:18.460
What's the story archetypes? Man versus environment
00:39:18.460 --> 00:39:23.880
and you are environment. Sure. And the idea,
00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:28.219
I'm so fascinated by this sort of subtractive
00:39:28.219 --> 00:39:32.079
process of like, okay, we've got this whole thing
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:34.739
set up. What happens when we poke at this? What
00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:36.280
happens when we change this? What happens when
00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:40.800
we take this away? It's such a fun way to look
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:43.099
at a time manipulation thing and just compelling
00:39:43.099 --> 00:39:46.199
in general. It's moving away from the genre into
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:48.000
something that's very different. But I could
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:50.300
see this being a really interesting framework
00:39:50.300 --> 00:39:56.619
for a story about a legend. Like, you know, a
00:39:56.619 --> 00:40:02.280
heroic figure, a god, a whatever. That you tell
00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:05.639
their heroic narrative and then it's almost a
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:09.500
time -passing or translation process or something.
00:40:09.500 --> 00:40:13.360
It's immediately thinking telephone. Yeah. One
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:18.900
version of it is the scale of you have your Greek
00:40:18.900 --> 00:40:22.599
myths, particularly, let's say, your myth of
00:40:22.599 --> 00:40:25.860
Persephone. And then a couple thousand years
00:40:25.860 --> 00:40:30.269
later, a bunch of... 20 year olds on tumblr are
00:40:30.269 --> 00:40:34.050
like what if a feminist retelling of persephone
00:40:34.050 --> 00:40:39.289
and then seven different books are published
00:40:39.289 --> 00:40:43.469
with that exact idea in the span of two years
00:40:43.469 --> 00:40:45.250
and then they sort of just like start exploring
00:40:45.250 --> 00:40:49.130
other classic tales and that kind of thing but
00:40:49.130 --> 00:40:52.429
that but like more tragic right you're not trying
00:40:52.429 --> 00:40:54.659
to necessarily you're not trying to update the
00:40:54.659 --> 00:40:57.119
story you're trying to like and I think that
00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:59.760
it isn't even about realism it's not saying like
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:02.300
here's their story that's all like heroic and
00:41:02.300 --> 00:41:04.960
fantastical and then here's how it would really
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:08.460
go but it's just about this like you build a
00:41:08.460 --> 00:41:12.960
statue of a hero and then you just watch it erode
00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:16.539
I think that there is something that is like
00:41:16.539 --> 00:41:18.840
really interesting there that could be really
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:22.340
generative for that could be a world building
00:41:22.340 --> 00:41:26.519
game where you are learning It's tied very much
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:29.980
to Veditia Valetti's Land Once Magic, where you
00:41:29.980 --> 00:41:35.679
create a legend that is very focal for beliefs
00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:40.559
in the place that you're exploring, but just
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:44.099
zooming in entirely on that process. And so one
00:41:44.099 --> 00:41:45.900
of the things you're seeing almost is like, how
00:41:45.900 --> 00:41:48.659
does this get corrupted? Like, how is it that
00:41:48.659 --> 00:41:50.460
different people tell it? And they're like, well,
00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:53.519
no, this happened. And so that's what this means.
00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:56.559
And then like, how does that happen over generations
00:41:56.559 --> 00:42:02.059
until you're like, okay, so we take very different
00:42:02.059 --> 00:42:05.980
lessons from this than the original creators
00:42:05.980 --> 00:42:08.280
did. Obviously, I know I have moved us into a
00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:11.639
completely different genre space, but there's
00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:14.000
something really cool there. Here lies Joe, Bruce
00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:19.300
of Willis. Yep, that's what I said. That's exactly
00:42:19.300 --> 00:42:26.849
what I said. Yeah, I'm so interested in, like,
00:42:26.849 --> 00:42:31.269
the ways that it would also be just such an interesting
00:42:31.269 --> 00:42:34.369
reflection of the table to see them, like, take
00:42:34.369 --> 00:42:37.070
a myth apart in a way that, again, is not about
00:42:37.070 --> 00:42:41.130
making it real, but about, like, what is interesting
00:42:41.130 --> 00:42:44.710
to these people to start, like, poking at within
00:42:44.710 --> 00:42:50.349
this mythic story is really, really fun. And...
00:42:51.469 --> 00:42:53.570
If I were to be taking it back in the direction
00:42:53.570 --> 00:42:57.469
of Looper, it starts to just like you get to
00:42:57.469 --> 00:43:01.150
ask really fun questions about like, well, without
00:43:01.150 --> 00:43:04.510
X, what is the rest of this person's life like?
00:43:05.090 --> 00:43:07.409
It becomes a little bit of a butterfly effect
00:43:07.409 --> 00:43:12.030
game. Yeah, absolutely. Which I think is I'm
00:43:12.030 --> 00:43:15.269
almost shocked. Surely, if I searched itch .io
00:43:15.269 --> 00:43:18.010
enough, I would find that. But the idea like
00:43:18.010 --> 00:43:22.480
the fact that I have not. stumbled over a world
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:25.420
building game uh get get in the comments here
00:43:25.420 --> 00:43:27.800
tell us the one that i don't know about like
00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:30.579
you build a world and then you change an early
00:43:30.579 --> 00:43:32.719
world building decision and then you play the
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:35.340
game again and you see how the world turns out
00:43:35.340 --> 00:43:38.300
different like come on that's so sick yeah i
00:43:38.300 --> 00:43:41.539
think that you could ground it thematically in
00:43:41.539 --> 00:43:44.260
again time travel scientists where you're literally
00:43:44.260 --> 00:43:47.349
like watching different versions of it play out
00:43:47.349 --> 00:43:49.469
or even watching simulations and that kind of
00:43:49.469 --> 00:43:51.190
thing one of the things that i'm really drawn
00:43:51.190 --> 00:43:54.269
to about this is that it asks a very specific
00:43:54.269 --> 00:44:00.929
mindset of you which is you need to hold on to
00:44:00.929 --> 00:44:03.610
things with a pretty loose grip in this game
00:44:03.610 --> 00:44:07.730
and you need to really be open to the idea that
00:44:07.730 --> 00:44:12.579
things can change and like the conversation needs
00:44:12.579 --> 00:44:16.019
to really have room and support people going,
00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:18.360
wait, I don't think they would make that choice
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:21.099
because remember they only made that choice because
00:44:21.099 --> 00:44:24.940
of this or even if, or, or at least to say, I
00:44:24.940 --> 00:44:26.780
think that they made that choice because they
00:44:26.780 --> 00:44:30.119
had this experience. So what does it look like
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:32.099
now that we know that they haven't had that experience?
00:44:32.119 --> 00:44:36.619
Like it is, it is a very interesting conversational
00:44:36.619 --> 00:44:41.260
mode to. be in that is not goal oriented unlike
00:44:41.260 --> 00:44:44.519
i think literally every other version essentially
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:47.380
of a game that we've talked about in this the
00:44:47.380 --> 00:44:50.400
goal is to have the conversation to play it and
00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:56.159
not to like get to a specific point which i think
00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:57.820
is really fun and i think that this would be
00:44:57.820 --> 00:45:00.000
this could be a really interesting game that
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:03.960
has like pretty short form play you know you're
00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:06.610
you're having like a few five -minute rounds
00:45:06.610 --> 00:45:08.170
you're playing for a couple hours, whatever.
00:45:08.369 --> 00:45:11.789
And, of course, incredibly in character for Dee
00:45:11.789 --> 00:45:14.690
specifically to essentially say, what if you
00:45:14.690 --> 00:45:16.889
created a character with a life path and then
00:45:16.889 --> 00:45:20.389
what if you did it several times? Yeah. Because
00:45:20.389 --> 00:45:24.090
she is always looking for a chance to reference
00:45:24.090 --> 00:45:28.750
the lost tech of the, what show is it? The superhero,
00:45:29.170 --> 00:45:32.269
the Smallville. Smallville. She's always looking
00:45:32.269 --> 00:45:34.230
for a chance to reference that Smallville tech
00:45:34.230 --> 00:45:38.840
as, She should. People need to know. Yeah. Listen
00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:41.880
to the episode that she was on if you want to
00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:44.500
hear us talk about the lost Smallville character
00:45:44.500 --> 00:45:46.760
creation tech. Yeah. And I just want to really
00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:49.900
highlight how much I love the sort of like what
00:45:49.900 --> 00:45:52.219
makes a person who they are question that you
00:45:52.219 --> 00:45:54.860
have to end up asking a lot in this idea. Like
00:45:54.860 --> 00:45:57.820
we have all developed a conception of this character
00:45:57.820 --> 00:46:00.420
at this table and we begin to make assumptions
00:46:00.420 --> 00:46:03.610
about that character. what are actually the characters
00:46:03.610 --> 00:46:05.250
experiences that are grounding those assumptions
00:46:05.250 --> 00:46:07.570
and have they changed is such a fun thing to
00:46:07.570 --> 00:46:11.369
press players on yeah i love that thank you so
00:46:11.369 --> 00:46:15.090
much to everyone who wrote in i loved getting
00:46:15.090 --> 00:46:19.650
to just sort of chatter about your ideas this
00:46:19.650 --> 00:46:23.369
is really fun i also just sort of for posterity
00:46:23.820 --> 00:46:26.280
want to throw in my examples that i had in my
00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:28.639
thread i mentioned the like forge in the dark
00:46:28.639 --> 00:46:31.539
game of mildly psychic dirtbags but i think one
00:46:31.539 --> 00:46:33.840
thing you could also do when you watch looper
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:37.599
is make a really good mothership module where
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:42.360
you are being hired as corporate time travel
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:45.579
assassins this would be particularly fascinating
00:46:45.579 --> 00:46:49.940
in combination with what ben said of like you
00:46:49.940 --> 00:46:54.590
can't die because like mothership is pretty high
00:46:54.590 --> 00:46:57.210
lethality obviously so there's actually something
00:46:57.210 --> 00:46:59.050
interesting about there where if you introduced
00:46:59.050 --> 00:47:02.170
a corporation that is like hey you work for us
00:47:02.170 --> 00:47:05.170
good news you can't die but we will ask certain
00:47:05.170 --> 00:47:07.590
things of you i think that that could actually
00:47:07.590 --> 00:47:09.989
be a really interesting pressure point in the
00:47:09.989 --> 00:47:12.349
right mothership campaign with the right people
00:47:12.349 --> 00:47:16.050
and that could be really fun i think it would
00:47:16.050 --> 00:47:18.889
be fun to write the this the the aesthetics of
00:47:18.889 --> 00:47:20.750
this movie are already very mothership to me
00:47:20.750 --> 00:47:23.710
except not high sci -fi just the like the grit
00:47:23.710 --> 00:47:29.829
and the like low -life sci -fi of it feels very
00:47:29.829 --> 00:47:32.369
tied to that to me and also the idea of like
00:47:32.369 --> 00:47:38.820
um in mothership death is the only escape Characters
00:47:38.820 --> 00:47:41.019
rarely become less stressed, like you can a little
00:47:41.019 --> 00:47:43.300
bit, but not very much. Death is how you get
00:47:43.300 --> 00:47:46.000
out of the endless hell. Getting to play out
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:49.260
what happens to you when you don't even have
00:47:49.260 --> 00:47:51.760
that escape, like what other consequences does
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:53.980
your immunity come with, just in terms of what
00:47:53.980 --> 00:47:56.880
you're being put through. Great. Yeah, absolutely.
00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:00.699
The other... The last of the three examples that
00:48:00.699 --> 00:48:02.920
I gave was a solo LARP about writing messages
00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:05.579
to your future self on your body. I don't know
00:48:05.579 --> 00:48:08.599
what that would be exactly, but I think that
00:48:08.599 --> 00:48:11.880
there's something of like, you know, you're writing
00:48:11.880 --> 00:48:14.719
messages on your arm. And then I think what you're
00:48:14.719 --> 00:48:19.880
probably doing is living your day and then watching
00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:22.739
how the message changes, watching how it erodes.
00:48:23.849 --> 00:48:26.170
That means something. You're keeping track of
00:48:26.170 --> 00:48:28.710
it. You are like seeing how you can communicate
00:48:28.710 --> 00:48:30.550
with your future self. What's the game you played
00:48:30.550 --> 00:48:33.289
on Folio? Were you right on yourself? Live, Love,
00:48:33.329 --> 00:48:36.929
Die, Remember. Yes, absolutely. Which Dean was
00:48:36.929 --> 00:48:40.670
on. Yes. Yeah. Which in Live, Love, Die, Remember,
00:48:40.849 --> 00:48:44.250
you are writing on yourself specifically too.
00:48:44.309 --> 00:48:47.369
You are playing a mech who is in love with their
00:48:47.369 --> 00:48:51.010
pilot. You are in the final moment before you
00:48:51.010 --> 00:48:53.750
either... die you have to like make a big choice
00:48:53.750 --> 00:48:56.150
you're in a battle at the end of the game you're
00:48:56.150 --> 00:48:58.769
going to either like die or escape together or
00:48:58.769 --> 00:49:01.670
you're going to sacrifice yourself for the pilot
00:49:01.670 --> 00:49:04.110
and you are playing out a series of memories
00:49:04.110 --> 00:49:06.869
with the pilot where you're like falling in love
00:49:06.869 --> 00:49:09.989
and all that kind of stuff and after every memory
00:49:09.989 --> 00:49:13.250
you draw a little symbol on your arm you mark
00:49:13.250 --> 00:49:16.349
your chassis to say like here was a thing that
00:49:16.349 --> 00:49:19.309
happened and changed me it's very beautiful i
00:49:19.309 --> 00:49:22.599
love that game and just like it's something that
00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:24.199
I don't play with a lot necessarily because I
00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:27.039
think that it needs a lot of safety around it
00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:29.360
but that is what is so compelling to me about
00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:32.400
writing on your body as part of gameplay it is
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:37.480
so visceral and you just like feel it and especially
00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:40.059
with something like what I'm theoretically proposing
00:49:40.059 --> 00:49:42.239
where you write a message on your body and then
00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:45.179
at the end of the day check what it is you are
00:49:45.179 --> 00:49:47.900
you are living with it all day like it is there
00:49:47.900 --> 00:49:50.099
it is this constant thing when i was a teenager
00:49:50.099 --> 00:49:52.699
and very obsessed with the concept of lucid dreaming
00:49:52.699 --> 00:49:57.539
i wrote your um like are you dreaming on my wrist
00:49:57.539 --> 00:50:01.820
so that i would look at it and train myself that
00:50:01.820 --> 00:50:04.500
every time i looked at my wrist i would ask myself
00:50:04.500 --> 00:50:07.699
if i'm dreaming because the theory is and this
00:50:07.699 --> 00:50:10.260
did work once or twice but Not super effectively
00:50:10.260 --> 00:50:12.599
for me. Then in your dream, if you ever look
00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:14.400
at your wrist, you'll automatically think, am
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:16.059
I dreaming? You'll realize you're dreaming and
00:50:16.059 --> 00:50:18.840
then you can lose a dream. But just sitting with
00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:22.300
something that is on your body is so visceral
00:50:22.300 --> 00:50:25.300
and cool and I think could be really powerful.
00:50:25.639 --> 00:50:27.219
There's also something that is a little more
00:50:27.219 --> 00:50:29.659
divorced from it where you maybe write a message
00:50:29.659 --> 00:50:31.699
and then you like tape it on the outside of your
00:50:31.699 --> 00:50:35.179
house. And then in a month you check back and
00:50:35.179 --> 00:50:37.699
you're like. What did the elements do to this?
00:50:37.780 --> 00:50:40.460
What if this was my body? Like, what is this
00:50:40.460 --> 00:50:42.639
communicating to me? You know, there's stuff
00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:47.320
there for where you could go with that. And I'm
00:50:47.320 --> 00:50:50.059
really intrigued also about, like, this gets
00:50:50.059 --> 00:50:52.219
even more intense in certain ways, but, like,
00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:56.099
the idea of the writing on your body being communication
00:50:56.099 --> 00:51:01.519
with a future self really suggests the idea of
00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:05.800
giving advice to yourself. Yeah. Or setting an
00:51:05.800 --> 00:51:08.860
intention and the idea of being like, OK, I'm
00:51:08.860 --> 00:51:10.719
going to write this advice to myself and now
00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:14.300
I have to conform to it. Or I get to the end
00:51:14.300 --> 00:51:16.860
of the day and I go, what would it have meant
00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:20.300
if I had had this information that I actually
00:51:20.300 --> 00:51:23.260
didn't have? There's so much like I'm thinking
00:51:23.260 --> 00:51:25.960
about Avery Alder's Variations on Your Body.
00:51:26.920 --> 00:51:29.460
That are very much like noticing games and awareness
00:51:29.460 --> 00:51:31.719
games that feel deeply connected to therapeutic
00:51:31.719 --> 00:51:34.599
grounding practices and stuff like that. And
00:51:34.599 --> 00:51:39.639
so the idea that there's so much self -exploration
00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:42.820
that could be done in. I am writing something
00:51:42.820 --> 00:51:45.500
serious and meaningful to myself and then either
00:51:45.500 --> 00:51:48.139
listening to it or not listening to it and then
00:51:48.139 --> 00:51:51.000
having to reflect on it later. I really like
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:53.559
that. And I think tied to the conversation earlier,
00:51:53.659 --> 00:51:55.800
what I was saying about games that can't quite
00:51:55.800 --> 00:51:59.820
do the thing that they're exploring, the idea
00:51:59.820 --> 00:52:04.360
of almost sort of gummy vitamin -ing some therapeutic
00:52:04.360 --> 00:52:10.000
grounding DBT in a game, the thing is that it
00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:12.780
actually might. work because the thing about
00:52:12.780 --> 00:52:15.940
those things is that you you do them to do them
00:52:15.940 --> 00:52:19.420
yes yeah yeah the whole point is doing it does
00:52:19.420 --> 00:52:21.760
it even when you don't think it will like and
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:27.559
hey that could be huge what if ryan johnson's
00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:31.760
looper ttrpgs made you dialectical about your
00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:36.199
thoughts yeah what if this is the solution what
00:52:36.199 --> 00:52:38.940
if we fix everybody did anyone tell marshall
00:52:38.940 --> 00:52:43.320
linehan Did she have this idea? Marsha, come
00:52:43.320 --> 00:52:51.300
on the pod. Oh my god. Dream guest for everything,
00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:59.019
but also what the fuck? Oh my god, this should
00:52:59.019 --> 00:53:03.800
be a game DBT episode. This should be a game
00:53:03.800 --> 00:53:07.679
Marsha Linehan's DBT book is the piece of media.
00:53:09.469 --> 00:53:11.650
The dime game? It's literally in there. It's
00:53:11.650 --> 00:53:14.769
right in there. Yeah. Responsibly, I probably
00:53:14.769 --> 00:53:20.030
can't make a game jam that is about EMDR because
00:53:20.030 --> 00:53:22.929
you really should be careful about how you practice
00:53:22.929 --> 00:53:26.590
it. But it's really good and helpful. So what
00:53:26.590 --> 00:53:32.059
if it works? The therapeutic technique game jam
00:53:32.059 --> 00:53:35.760
goes crazy. Inner family systems work. Are you
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:38.000
kidding me? Everyone is John, but it's inner
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:43.059
family systems informed? Yeah. Shout out to Luca
00:53:43.059 --> 00:53:48.219
Psychound, who I believe recently defended their
00:53:48.219 --> 00:53:53.820
thesis that is about the therapeutic uses of
00:53:53.820 --> 00:53:57.960
TTRPGs. I may be completely mangling what that...
00:53:58.590 --> 00:54:02.769
topic was but i saw the paper going around and
00:54:02.769 --> 00:54:06.349
i generally really enjoy the approach that they
00:54:06.349 --> 00:54:10.670
have to their work and how they interface games
00:54:10.670 --> 00:54:15.190
and therapeutic practice so shout out sorry that
00:54:15.190 --> 00:54:19.429
we're kind of josh in but if it helps i'm josh
00:54:19.429 --> 00:54:26.210
and not josh finally i just want to mention emeryn
00:54:26.210 --> 00:54:29.429
wrote in talking about her playbook for beam
00:54:29.429 --> 00:54:33.989
saber avlin ramsey's mech game playbook called
00:54:33.989 --> 00:54:36.650
the looper where you are looping play the looper
00:54:36.650 --> 00:54:38.570
if you want to manipulate time sometimes with
00:54:38.570 --> 00:54:40.949
disastrous repercussions play the character who's
00:54:40.949 --> 00:54:43.250
always one step ahead with suspicious consistency
00:54:43.250 --> 00:54:46.630
and break the game now and play the price later
00:54:46.630 --> 00:54:49.650
we were talking about forged in the dark time
00:54:49.650 --> 00:54:53.389
loop shit it's all there was there anything else
00:54:53.389 --> 00:54:55.710
that you wanted to add jess about little looper
00:54:56.170 --> 00:54:59.329
game ideas or anything you wanted to combine
00:54:59.329 --> 00:55:02.590
willy -nilly from the episodes or whatever no
00:55:02.590 --> 00:55:05.110
i think we really hit on it it was very fun to
00:55:05.110 --> 00:55:07.289
get to like visit all these different people
00:55:07.289 --> 00:55:10.050
ideas and see where that took us agreed thank
00:55:10.050 --> 00:55:12.750
you everybody who wrote in we are really hoping
00:55:12.750 --> 00:55:15.409
to have this be a consistent way that we sort
00:55:15.409 --> 00:55:19.110
of wrap up the series i particularly shout out
00:55:19.110 --> 00:55:21.869
to the people who sent in audio clips just makes
00:55:21.869 --> 00:55:24.090
me happy to hear your voices and your excited
00:55:24.090 --> 00:55:29.869
tone And when we figure out what our next movies
00:55:29.869 --> 00:55:34.090
will be, we will open submissions up for those.
00:55:34.250 --> 00:55:37.889
So keep an eye on Blue Sky. Join the Discord
00:55:37.889 --> 00:55:41.710
at discord .thisshouldbeaga .me. We'll make sure
00:55:41.710 --> 00:55:44.429
to announce it in there. We would love to have
00:55:44.429 --> 00:55:48.409
you get involved in this, you know, small...
00:55:48.670 --> 00:55:52.130
smaller commitment kind of way and just hear
00:55:52.130 --> 00:55:54.769
a lot of different interpretations of the various
00:55:54.769 --> 00:55:57.949
things because that is in the end what this whole
00:55:57.949 --> 00:56:00.769
show is sort of careening towards and around
00:56:00.769 --> 00:56:04.409
generally is you can be inspired by the same
00:56:04.409 --> 00:56:07.130
thing to make a lot of different things and that's
00:56:07.130 --> 00:56:09.519
actually cool as fuck Anything you want to direct
00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:12.599
people towards, Jess? Yeah, you can find games
00:56:12.599 --> 00:56:16.340
that I make based on things and inspired by things
00:56:16.340 --> 00:56:19.659
on my itch at jumpgategames .itch .io. I've got
00:56:19.659 --> 00:56:21.980
Planet Fist, which is very inspired by Planetside
00:56:21.980 --> 00:56:23.960
2, though more familiar to most people would
00:56:23.960 --> 00:56:27.019
be Starship Troopers and Helldivers 2. I've got
00:56:27.019 --> 00:56:30.800
Going Rogue, which is very expired by. Sure.
00:56:31.800 --> 00:56:35.219
Inspired by Star Wars Rogue One and or kind of.
00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:38.420
So there's a lot there. Eye of the High Ground
00:56:38.420 --> 00:56:40.239
wears some of its inspirations on its sleeves,
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:44.000
I suppose. So all that's there. You can maybe
00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:46.880
still leap back. Maybe can't. Guess we'll find
00:56:46.880 --> 00:56:49.639
out. Galactic and Going Rogue on Kickstarter.
00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:53.420
And you just Google for Galactic and Going Rogue
00:56:53.420 --> 00:56:55.360
on Kickstarter. It'll get you there. Be bad if
00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:58.320
it didn't. So yeah, those are places you can
00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:01.159
find my work. Wonderful. You can follow me on
00:57:01.159 --> 00:57:03.480
Blue Sky at pesetachips .gaygothvibes .online.
00:57:03.519 --> 00:57:05.280
You can find my work generally at gaygothvibes
00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:08.099
.online. Please back the Haunted Table Patreon
00:57:08.099 --> 00:57:13.219
for $3 USD. You can get access to the playtest
00:57:13.219 --> 00:57:16.519
version of The House Edge, our Triangle Agency
00:57:16.519 --> 00:57:20.320
Fist Ultra crossover, randomized card crawl.
00:57:20.420 --> 00:57:22.639
We're doing a bunch of development work on that,
00:57:22.699 --> 00:57:26.159
leading to a crowdfunder later this year. you
00:57:26.159 --> 00:57:28.539
actually now can go and follow the pre -launch
00:57:28.539 --> 00:57:32.019
page for that. So please do that. There's also
00:57:32.019 --> 00:57:33.900
a bunch of other cool stuff on the Haunted Table
00:57:33.900 --> 00:57:36.960
Patreon that you get for even as a free member.
00:57:37.679 --> 00:57:41.280
Design blogs, particularly from Caleb, who is
00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:46.070
brilliant and will be the... voice that you hear
00:57:46.070 --> 00:57:49.170
in the next episode our first episode of happy
00:57:49.170 --> 00:57:52.590
death day which will be after this one i'm sorting
00:57:52.590 --> 00:57:55.250
out the time loop of how episodes work in my
00:57:55.250 --> 00:57:58.510
mind and i'm good at it and it's not a problem
00:57:58.510 --> 00:58:03.210
everything is so straightforward to me thank
00:58:03.210 --> 00:58:07.250
you so much for listening thank you to chris
00:58:07.250 --> 00:58:09.070
vienna for our logo thank you to nikki flowers
00:58:09.070 --> 00:58:12.369
for our theme song join the discord follow us
00:58:12.369 --> 00:58:16.300
on blue sky chat with us do whatever have fun
00:58:16.300 --> 00:58:19.280
hooray the world is yours back us on patreon
00:58:19.280 --> 00:58:23.159
support us on patreon you can vote for movies
00:58:23.159 --> 00:58:26.679
that we'll do we'll have one of those up now
00:58:26.679 --> 00:58:29.780
or you just missed one those are the options
00:58:29.780 --> 00:58:32.280
yeah and then there'll be another one in the
00:58:32.280 --> 00:58:35.280
future we're looping We're looping. It keeps
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:38.179
happening. Thank you so much for listening. This
00:58:38.179 --> 00:58:39.900
has been the Should Be a Game, a podcast about
00:58:39.900 --> 00:58:41.519
the moment where you say, this should be a game.
00:58:41.679 --> 00:59:16.920
This should be a game. wrap up just want to shoot
00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:24.159
fuck I really want before we wrap up just want
00:59:24.159 --> 00:59:36.360
to shoot fuck to be in like a bumper that's a
00:59:36.360 --> 00:59:39.820
fucking that's a line from the fucking kid blue
00:59:39.820 --> 00:59:42.579
I just want to shoot that shoots fuck