Beyond Knowledge: Growing Civic Skills

Drew Perkins talks with Colleen Shogan, the former Archivist of the United States and the first woman to hold the role, who is now a senior adviser at More Perfect, where she leads the history-based civics initiative In Pursuit, and a senior fellow in civics education at Stand Together. Six years after her last visit to the podcast, Colleen describes being fired as Archivist as a civics lesson in resilience, then lays out what civics education needs beyond memorizing the three branches: knowledge, skills and character, all aimed at the practical wisdom she calls civic judgment. Along the way they dig into the state of civic knowledge, how to teach controversial topics without picking sides, why teachers need support from administrators, the case against book bans from either side, and whether the fragmented civics movement can come together during the "civic decade."

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Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org

Intro/outro voice credit: David O'Hara, Professor of Philosophy, Classics & Environmental Studies, Augustana University.

• Civic knowledge is alarmingly thin: Colleen cites 22% of eighth graders scoring proficient in civics, and surveys finding that 35% of adults can't name the three branches of government, 25% can't name a single First Amendment freedom and only 45% know senators serve six-year terms.
• Knowledge is the baseline, not the goal: Both agree that knowing how a separated-powers system works is necessary but not sufficient. Colleen adds skills (compromise, active listening, productive disagreement, coalition-building) and character (humility, patience, responsibility, courage).
• The aim is civic judgment: Knowledge, skills and character come together in what Colleen calls civic judgment, Aristotle's phronesis or practical wisdom: the ability to decide well in situations no one can rehearse for.
• Measure impact, not just reach: Impressions and readership are easy to count. Knowing whether minds and habits changed takes before-and-after work in classrooms, such as running the same decision-making scenario at the start and end of a semester.
• Controversial topics need practice and backing: Start with low-stakes questions and build toward hot-button issues, as UW–Madison's deliberative dinners do. Teachers who push back on every view model good disagreement, but they need support from principals and school boards to do it.
• Civic action and civic knowledge aren't rivals: Petitioning for a stop sign requires knowing how local decisions get made. Knowledge, skills and dispositions together make civic action thoughtful, including how to handle losing.

• 0:00 – Introduction and catching up: From the White House Historical Association to the National Archives, More Perfect and In Pursuit.
• 0:50 – First woman Archivist, and the only one fired: Colleen on her dismissal in February 2025.
• 3:11 – Setbacks as a civics lesson: Resilience for individuals and for institutions.
• 5:09 – The state of civic knowledge: The numbers on students' and adults' civic knowledge.
• 8:29 – Knowledge as a baseline: Necessary but not sufficient, and why a separated-powers system needs explaining.
• 10:33 – Three pillars: knowledge, skills and character: Compromise, active listening, productive disagreement and coalition-building.
• 12:50 – Civic judgment and practical wisdom: Aristotle's phronesis, and preparing for situations no one can predict.
• 17:16 – Measuring reach versus impact: Why before-and-after classroom measures matter.
• 19:18 – Working through controversial topics: Evidence, stakeholders, competing values, discussion, decision.
• 21:47 – Low-stakes simulations: The million-dollar school budget scenario, before and after instruction.
• 24:04 – UW–Madison's deliberative dialogue dinners: From cafeteria hours to immigration and abortion.
• 28:35 – What great civics teachers do: A history teacher who pushed back on every opinion.
• 31:39 – Teachers need administrative support: Why principals and school boards matter.
• 33:46 – Enlightenment principles and intellectual freedom: Book bans, the public library and letting ideas compete.
• 39:38 – Time, budgets and A Nation at Risk: Why social studies keeps getting squeezed.
• 42:11 – Better preparation for civics teachers: Graduate courses and summer institutes.
• 45:23 – Explicit instruction, inquiry and informed skeptics: Drew on inoculating students against tribalism.
• 47:32 – The role of school librarians: Information professionals in every classroom.
• 49:27 – "Tell me more": Responding to students' provocative questions.
• 51:18 – A fragmented civics movement and the civic decade: Can the field agree on shared goals?
• 54:14 – What role for the federal government?: The founders on civic education.
• 56:30 – Civic action versus civic knowledge: A false dichotomy, illustrated by a stop sign.
• 59:54 – The Consent of the Governed project: Students persuading their city council.
• 1:01:02 – Where to find Colleen's work: In Pursuit, Stand Together and an Adams family Thanksgiving.