Masterclass Writing Tips from Antonio Michael Downing. The Writing Community Chat Show.

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Hello everybody, and welcome to the Writing Community chat show.
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We are back with a brand new show, and we
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are flying through season seventeen. I've lost count literally of
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how many episodes we've got in this season already and
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how many seasons were on because we have surpassed the
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four hundred, four hundred episode milestone, which is quite incredible.
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A lot of shows don't make it nearly as far
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as that, so that's a big one for us. We've
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got some great news to talk about what's going to
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happen with this show shortly. But first of all, and
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I catch up with my cold Chris Wholey, Chris, how
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are you doing. How's your week been?
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Very good? How are you?
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Yeah?
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Good.
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I've had a productive week doing all sorts of random stuff,
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including making a board game which is all in the
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development and soon to be announced and discussed, and an
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exclusive playing of that board game virtually after this as
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well with some of our people. So yeah, excited.
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Yeah, I'm surprised, to be honest, because I tuned in
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literally as the show was starting, and I was worried
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that the tech wouldn't work, and it does, so now
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you you can hear me.
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We're all good.
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I have noticed that we haven't got a guest that.
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Yeah, so for the first time, tech us worked one
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point as you joined the show, but we're still waiting
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for our guests to turn up. Which you know, we
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had an email from the person that arranged this and
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they said they're very excited to join and chat to us.
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So there may be a little technical issue there. There
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may be a miscommunication between the person who organized it
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and the guests. So we'll see. We'll see what happens.
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We've got lots to talk about anyway, we do have
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a lot to talk about. Hello to everyone in the chat.
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Hello to you Anya and Ross.
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Yeah, it's a good time to be part of the
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Writing Community chat show because we that middle word community
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is not something that we do. It's forward ah right, okay,
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I'm writing community chat show. Yeah, it's still in the
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middle that second middle word, community is something that we
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we do do obviously, people chat and get involved, but
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we're about to start a community project which is going
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to be amazing, you know, getting together writing novels. H's
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something we've never done before. We have written novels obviously,
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but we've never done it as collective.
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Yeah, I guess just has arrived in the in the
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green room virtually, so we'll bring him on very shortly.
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But yeah, just to talk about that very quickly in
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the end at the end of next month. So at
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the end of April, now at the end of May,
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we will start a brand new project community basis. Chris
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Rightley said, the middle word of those full letter forwards
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is community. And what we're doing is a big challenge
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for everybody, and it's kind of like, you know, we
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noticed the name Ramo dropped off the grid recently and
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that was a big challenge with a lot of words
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written per day, you know, in the thousands. We're looking
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at some things very manageable and we'll be very engaging
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along with us as well. So we're going to take
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part in this big challenge. So from the start of
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May until the end of July, we are spending twelve
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weeks not doing our live shows as usual for the
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first time in four years. We're going to repurpose a
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lot of content during that time. But what we're going
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to be doing is writing eight hundred words a day,
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very manageable, and we've set up save the Cat template
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or save the Cat based template, a checklist that you
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can use to make sure you keep it on track.
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We will do weekly zoom calls with me and Chris
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and the community to discuss how that's going and to
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troubleshoot some issues. We've also got a dedicated discord server
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with channels private channels for the people partaking in this,
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and you need to be a substact member of ours
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to be able to join into this as well. So
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that is going to happen from the first of eight,
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first of May onwards, and me and Chris are going
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to produce the manuscript uring that time, and we really
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hope that you guys do as well. It's called the
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one hundred because we'll have roughly one hundred days to
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create an eighty thousand word manuscript.
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If we're going to start in May, I think yeah,
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if we're going to start in May, because we've had
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massive Star Wars debates on this show, I think we
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should start on May the fourth, just be visit ties
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it on nicely. And yeah, we used to have that
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more question as well, So.
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Yeah, we'll see if our guest is in the Star
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Wars night and we'll ask him that question. Yeah, fourth
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of May sounds good. I'm pretty sure that is on
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a Monday anyway. So because May, let's have a quick look. Sorry,
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do this now. The fourth of May is a Thursday.
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We can do all Thursday, Chris, if you'd like to.
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But there you go. Okay, So what we're going to
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do is we're going to get Tonight's guest on and
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we're going to chat to him. We didn't have a
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pre chat, so this, you know, I've seen in one
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other interviews. I'm sure we'll be absolutely fine with everything
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that comes this way right now, so joining us. Tonight
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is a Trinidad born Canadian based writer and a musician
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and all around creative force. He is the author of
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the critically acclaimed memoir Saga Boy, which was nominated for
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both the Toronto Book Award and the Shakespeare's Book Award
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and was famously described by Gilla Prize winner Ian Williams
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as the triumph of blackness Everywhere. He is also the
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author of the fantastic debut literary coming of age novel
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Black Cherokee, published by Simon and Schuster. And if that
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wasn't enough, He performs and recalls incredible genre bending music,
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blending Efro Caribbean rhythms and soul under the name John Orpheus,
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and tonight we're going to dive into the mechanics of
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his writing craft, how his musical background influences his pros,
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and how his storytelling consistently searches for identity, belonging, and joy.
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So please everybody give a nice, warm Welcome to the
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stream the brilliant Antonio Michael Downing.
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Hello, Hey, how's it going. Wow? That guy you just
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talked about it sounds very I'd like to meet him
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one day.
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Yeah, so fantastic. Yeah, how are you doing?
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The other one? I'm so good. It's it's I'm in Hamilton, Ontario,
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which is just west of Toronto, and it's you know,
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we have our winters here are terrible, and so finally
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winter has decided to let us have a bit of
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sun and a bit of warmth. So it's it's great,
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it's great. It's really beautiful day here, so I'm awesome.
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Yeah, we would tease with that. In the UK, our
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winters is not as terrible, but they're pretty bad. And
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we had the sun for like a week and now
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it's gone again. It's gone back to cold. So yeah,
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we're feeling that way. That that sort of pressure and
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that challenge of the winter at the minute and the
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darkness that comes with it, and the lack of motivation,
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especially in the writer's will. But yeah, so first of all,
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how is your week being. I've asked Chris, he's had
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a good week. I've had a good week. How's your
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week being?
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It's been super busy, but it's ending, Like you know,
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just I work for the CBC, which is kind of
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the BBC of Canada, and so had a busy week there.
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But right now, the reason I'm in Hamilton is because
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the Juno's the Juno Awards, which is like our Grammys basically,
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are happening this weekend, and so I'm looking forward to relaxing,
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taking in some music and just having some fun.
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Yeah yeah, I bet you are.
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You are?
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You know, we know how busy writers get. Generally, just
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writing novels on their own is a busy process. See,
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You've got lots of different creative avenues, and I'm sure
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we'll get into all of that as well. But the
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first thing we're going to do is play the little
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Round one video, and then we're going to learn about
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how you got into writing in the first place, whether
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that's through music or the literary side of things as well.
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So we're going to play a very quick video and
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then we'll get stuck into the road to writing.
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Fifteen minutes.
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So, Antonio, do you remember the first time that writing
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became something more than just maybe an idea in your mind.
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At what point did you actually take that first step
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into the writing moment?
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Yeah, well, I and I know you're gonna ask me
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about music, so i'll answer preem that question as well.
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It really started as a kid growing up in Trinidad.
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If you picture a really rural setting, like incredible amounts
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of rainfall, incredible amounts of sunshine, a one road village
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cutting through the jungle basically. And I grew up with
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my grandmother and she gave me a lot of lessons,
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but the two big ones that really stuck were singing.
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She was always singing, like you know, I'm sure you
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know people like that first thing in the morning, last
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thing at night, hungry, full, happy, sad. She had a
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song for every moment, usually hymns. And she taught me
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about reading and stories because she would always want to
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read her King James Bible, and her eyes were bad,
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so she literally taught me how to read so I
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could be her eyes for her. And I was just
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blown away. I was like, wait a minute, Wait a minute,
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you mean you mean to tell me I can be
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walking around with a bunch of people in a particular
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place at a particular time, and if I can just
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decipher some scratchings on a page in this little thing here,
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this book here, I can be transported to another place
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and another time with different people. And that that magic
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just hooked me. And from an early age I tried
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to write down stories. I would try to tell stories
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at first, because it's a very storytelling in Trinidad is
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a kind of a very at the time I was
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growing up there, anyway, it was very much how you
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got your news. You told jokes, you told folk tales,
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and then at an early age started trying to write
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them down and and for you know, it was for me,
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it was it was like being a magician. It was
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like you had a magic wand and you could just
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create a world and it's like wow, Like I thought
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I was the most powerful being in the universe.
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So with that in mind, then writing all studying music
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and writing. I know you've done a lot of studying
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of the art forms in different ways, But how does
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it play into each other, How does it feed into
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each other writing music and writing literature.
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I think fundamentally they're both storytelling. So when you have
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a good song, you know, and when you have a
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good song, it's there's usually a character there, there's usually
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a protagonist antagonist, there's a narrative arc, there's there's a plot,
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there's some things that happen, you know, And so I
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think it's very similar in music. Well, the songs I
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like anyway, they have a lot of that, the same
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literary qualities and so and so. Yeah, I find that's
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the connection between the two. And I just really liked
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telling stories, and so that's kind of what got me
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into both.
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Really, Antonio, when did you start then to sort of
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take what you were reading, put things down on paper piece,
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and then start to share those stories and ideas with
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the world.
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Yeah, great question, Chris. I think from a very young age,
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I was always trying to tell stories, Like I was
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always kind of like, hey, did you hear what they happened?
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Let me tell you a story. I think most of it.
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I like the attention because I grew up with my
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grandmother she's in her eighties, so she doesn't have the
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same energy to kind of pay attention to this four
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or five six zero old kid running around. So I
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think the starving for attention made me realize that if
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I could tell a good story for that minute or
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two minutes or thirty seconds, I would have their attention.
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And I think that really made me. It satisfied something
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in me. And then in school when we get to
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be eleven, in school, they would give you opportunities to
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write and so, and I, just because of my grandma
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teaching me to read at a young age, I was
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really literate and so I could figure out how to
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do the thing I would do talking on the page.
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I could kind of figure it out, and I was
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kind of fascinated with it. I would say probably by
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about nine years old, I was I was writing stuff
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down to some extent and thinking, oh, this would be
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fun to if I could do this all the time.
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Yeah. I mentioned earlier because I saw a video that
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you've done on YouTube, and it was about how you
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study musicians and their writing and authors and they're writing
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and that's really kind of interesting to you know. We
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heard it on the show a few times where people
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dissect books and figure out what works and what doesn't.
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But when you study sort of the lyrics in a
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song or the structure of a book, how does that
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help you as a writer, And what tips might you
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have for actually someone who has never studied so say,
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someone's writing and how to do that efficiently.
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Yeah, well, it's I mean, that's an interesting question, I think.
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I mean, first of all, I guess the first departure
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point I would say is like, look, if you're a
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human being, storytelling is in your blood, Like, there is
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no more fundamental human act than to make meaning. And
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the best ways we make meaning is we create stories.
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And so you have stories that you learned when you're
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a kid, fairy tales, you have stories you learned about
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your neighborhood, You've got family stories. And so I guess
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the first thing I encourage people think of is that
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story is to have the confidence that you know this
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isn't some arcane art art that you can never master.
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In fact, you already know how to do this, And
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I'll stand by that. I think every human being, by
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the time you're five years old, you understand the basics
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of storytelling. Now it might be helpful to have a
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little language about it you might not think about. You
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might not think of the hero as a protagonist or
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the villain as an antagonist. You might not think of,
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you know what a narrative arc is, so the development
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of the character through it. And so it's good to
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have a little bit of those the language around it.
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And then once you take that sort of natural storytelling
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ability and the language of a couple basic terms, now
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you can kind of see that everywhere. Right, So now
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you can listen to a song like, you know, I
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love Notorious Big. I used to listen to hip hop.
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He's got a song, he says, He says Arizona Ron
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from Tucson. He loved the slow Jams. He listened to
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the Isley's Stupid as a young and chose not to
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work wisely. And so Nataria's Big wanted a great lyricist.
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He's giving you a character, very colorfully drawn. But then
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look what he does in like in like four lines
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after that, And I think as a writer, as writers guys,
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you have to appreciate the efficiency. He said. That's when
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Ron vanished came back speaking Spanish fifty No, he said,
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that's when Ron vanished came back speaking Spanish, lavish habits,
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two rings, fifty carrots, and so immediately you have all
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these questions in your mind, like where did Ron go?
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Why did he vanish? What was he running from? What
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was he doing there that gave him these lavish habits,
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and how did he get the money for these very
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expensive rings? And why has he come back? And yes,
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very good.
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As an author, that's exactly what we want to do effectively,
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isn't it is We want to get the readers asking
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those questions about what's happening, get that intrigue in it.
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So that's a great way of showing it by example.
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So thank you for that. Yeah, And I think if
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we all music is easy to get into because it's
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generally you know, you don't need a degree a PhD.
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To understand or to get into a song. But I
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think if you listen to your favorite songs, you'll very
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quickly see that very often it's doing all the things
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we as writers want to do.
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It.
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It's giving you a character, it's giving you a problem
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to solve, it's giving you a narrative arc. You know,
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it's giving you you know, sometimes with like one line,
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it's amazing. The economy of writers where it can just
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give you with one line, as a good lyricist can
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give you a whole world, right, And I love and
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so I love for me because I was so musically inclined,
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A lot of my writing tends to use some of
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those techniques of condensing and the drama and also the
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rhythm and the music and the language. A lot of
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great writers were musicians. James Joyce, for example, was an
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exceptional musician, and one of the keys to reading his
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difficult works is to read them out loud because the
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sound of the music of the words is a pretty
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part of it. So yeah, I and again I want
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to under underline guys that I think this stuff is
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just natural to us, right, I think that we are
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naturally storytellers. Like what, like, how are you going to
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be good mates with anybody that can't spin a good
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yarn everything? Right, Like, it's it's just what we do.
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To Antonio, I'm really intrigued in terms of obviously you
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had this upbringing. My your grandma was, you know, telling
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these amazing stories, exposing you to really good literature, exposing
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you to great music. I suppose my question is how
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do you take that language? Knowing that your vocabulary so strong,
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but then actually managed to condense that too, Like you
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gave the example of Notorious, how he makes questions seem
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so simple in the language that he is used, And
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did music sort of help influence you in terms of
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making that work a bit more condensed and a bit
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more universal, because again, in music, one of the things
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is you when you create an image, you wanted to
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hit with as many people as possible. So did that
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help you write in process?
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Mm hmm, yeah, I think most definitely. I think. I
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think what I learned from the great lyricist were was
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was the economy of words, not wasting words, how you
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could do a lot with very few words, but also
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how like every song kind of has creates an emotional
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space and has a narrative arc and has characters, even
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though they all don't do it in a very literal
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sense like Notorious Big did, But I I believe those
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elements are always there, but in a microcosm. So as
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I studied the songs, it was a great way to
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get a sense of all a lot of different ways
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that you could do something like that. Right. It also
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underlined the importance of an opening line as well. Right,
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you know the importance of a hook, of a thematic
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and emotional hook that reoccurs that really pulls you in. Right,
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So you know, someone says, I bet that you'd look
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good on a dance floor, right like that, that's one line,
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and suddenly you've given us a point of view, You've
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given us sexual tension, You've given us two characters, you know,
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like just in one line. And so things like that
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I learned really benefited me from and trying to emulate that.
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When I started writing sort of bigger pieces, I still
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wanted that opening line that just grabbed you. I still
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wanted characters that just popped out. I still wanted movement.
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I still wanted thematic hooks. And understanding how to use
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repetition is a part of that too, Like how returning
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to something can add depth to your original time saying it.
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It's almost like every time you return it returns, it
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brings it back, but it also adds to it and
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expands on it. So you know, But for me, for me,
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there's almost no separation in how I think of music
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and lyrical structure and characterization and sentence construction than there
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is in literature. Of course, it's a little different in
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literature because you do have in both you have tools
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that you don't have any other. So in literature you
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have more space obviously you don't need to get it
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done in three minutes. But in music you've got you know,
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drums and keyboards and stuff like that. And so but
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for me, those two things, like I can probably riff
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on lessons I've learned from music and lyric writing forever.
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And it was interesting for a while I couldn't do
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both at the same time. If I was writing a novel,
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I wouldn't even want to hear music. And then it
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got to a point where it was like, now I'm writing,
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and when I stop, I'll pick up the guitar. I'll
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have the guitar right next to my desk and I'll
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just play for a bit and I'll write while music
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is playing, which I never used to be able to again,
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and I feel like it really seeps a mood into it.
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But you know, I would almost say that music's a
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big part of all our lives, really, like I mean,
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you know, except for Charlatan's you know a great line
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of a great line of Julius Caesar where he says,
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young Casius has a mean and hungry. Look, he sees
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no plays, he hears no music, right like, we can't
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trust anybody who doesn't love music, and it accompanies us
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through our everything we do. As a writer, writing is
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one of the things I do, so of course music
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accompanies me and seeps into what I'm doing there.
399
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:33.119
I noticed as well one of the videos I saw
400
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with you talking about the structure of your book in
401
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:39.000
the timeline that you created and the fact you'd written
402
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the first draft long hand, which to me always blows
403
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my mind when people do that. Do you think that's
404
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down to the fact that as a as a musician
405
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and lyricist in that way that you were writing down
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your lyrics to your songs and then suddenly you're translating
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that into novel writing with you your long handing your
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fiction writing.
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Yeah, and I've still do that. I always do the
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first draft. And it came to me naturally, like it
411
00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:11.640
came to me. I was actually on a call talking
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about Sagaboy. I was teaching a class and it was
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during the pandemic, so I was doing it by zoom
414
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for University of Toronto, and one of the astute questions
415
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I got was started by saying well, of course you
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write all your first drafts by hand. And I was like,
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and at the time, I was struggling with black Cherokee.
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And when the person said that, I said, oh, yes,
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I do, don't I, And so I instantly switched over
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to handwriting it. And there are lots of great reasons
421
00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:49.519
why I like that, but I think it's because I'm
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a journaler. Yeah, it's you know, I get up every
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morning since I was twelve, and I always have a
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book and I always have a pencil and I'm doodling.
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00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:02.720
So a lot of my song lyrics started in my journal.
426
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:10.480
And so because that's such a tactile activity where you're
427
00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:14.480
holding the book and the pen, it's almost it's almost
428
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like a kind of hypnotism. The physical implements trigger the
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mental state of oh, now it's time to reflect and
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turn things into words. So now when I'm writing a novel,
431
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naturally that's the state I want to access. And so
432
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:32.880
the easiest way to trigger that is pick up a
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00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:35.200
pen and a piece of paper, like you've done since
434
00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:40.279
you're twelve. And it's actually a really big part of
435
00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:44.799
when people ask me a lot about discipline, about how
436
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.960
are you so disciplined. How do you keep working? You know?
437
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Like I heard y'all talking about doing like a writing
438
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:56.400
push sprint together as a group, and I'm like, and
439
00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:59.839
part of it is because I ritualize the writing process
440
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:04.559
so and part of it is the handwriting. Right, So
441
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:09.279
I will write the same time, every day, same place,
442
00:26:09.880 --> 00:26:13.720
same ritual gets me into it, and I'll take up
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00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:16.319
the book that I'm writing in, and I will only
444
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.640
use that book for it for you know, for that purpose,
445
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no ripping it off to write down the grocery list
446
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or anything like that. And I'll get a really nice
447
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:30.279
leather bound you know something Laurence of Arabia you can
448
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:33.680
imagine writing in. And I'll get a fountain pen. I'll
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spend a little bit of money on it. I'll get
450
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:38.640
a special pen, and I'll never use that pen for
451
00:26:38.759 --> 00:26:42.160
anything else, like oh oh, let me just let me
452
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:44.960
jot something down. No, no, no, that pen is sacred.
453
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.759
And by creating all this ritual and sacredness about it,
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00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:52.880
what happens after a week of me when I'm writing,
455
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when I'm deep into writing, is I will wake up
456
00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:02.279
already writing because my body knows that the time to
457
00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:05.680
do that is coming, and then as I do those things,
458
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:08.440
by the time I sit down to write, I'm deep
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00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:10.920
in the world of the book already and it's kind
460
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:13.920
of activated. Because you all know, as writers, right, the
461
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:16.559
hardest thing to do is to get into that state
462
00:27:16.599 --> 00:27:18.920
of mind where you're deep in the book and you
463
00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:22.200
shut out everything and you're and you're just living it.
464
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:28.319
So what I do is I kind of ritualize and
465
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:33.359
habitualize the practice so I can trigger that state almost automatically.
466
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:37.200
And holding the physical implement of the pen and the
467
00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:40.599
paper is really powerful for doing that.
468
00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:44.240
Yeah, I think that's a great way. If someone became
469
00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:47.440
a famous author and those pens were specifically written for
470
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:50.559
that novel, you know, they could be auctioned off pretty well.
471
00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:56.519
Yeah, or you're or they want my papers one day.
472
00:27:57.079 --> 00:28:01.119
It's it's so sensual too, right. It's like the weight
473
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:04.839
of the paper, the smell of the leather that binds it.
474
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:09.880
What here's my favorite one. The sound of a fountain
475
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:14.160
pen on heavy paper as you're writing. It makes the
476
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:18.319
scratching sound, Yeah, the scrape, and that becomes like a
477
00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:24.200
hypnosis And I find that so beautiful for kind of
478
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:26.839
you know, it's so hard to just shut everything out.
479
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:31.440
It's almost like I'm it's almost like I'm hypnotizing myself.
480
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:36.319
And anytime I do those scrapes, my brain automatically goes, Okay,
481
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:36.920
we're writing.
482
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:40.000
Now here's my question that I've got for someone who
483
00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:42.599
writes in long hand. Okay, because this this just popped
484
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:45.720
into my head. So imagine that we're doing the eight
485
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:49.039
hundred words a day target and you're writing long hand.
486
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:51.599
How do you know how many words you've written? Do
487
00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:53.839
you literally have to count the words?
488
00:28:56.119 --> 00:28:59.920
Yeah, you do an average, like I actually feel that
489
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:04.119
one of the strengths of it. But yeah, but sometimes
490
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:06.599
you do need to know how many words. So you'll
491
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:09.839
do like, Okay, I'll count the number of lines on
492
00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:13.400
an average page, and I'll count out one page and
493
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:16.759
I'll just take that as a guidance. I'll try not
494
00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:20.240
to do one that's really busy or really sparse. I'll
495
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:23.400
try to find one that looks about average. But to
496
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:29.119
be honest, one of the blessings of it is that
497
00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:36.839
one you can't keep editing forever, Like you can't just
498
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:39.400
do that line over and over and over and over again.
499
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:43.119
And when you're doing a first draft, especially, I'm like, man,
500
00:29:43.240 --> 00:29:45.759
I just need to get it out, like I can
501
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:48.440
fix everything later, but right now, I just want to
502
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:51.440
get in a flow and just have it be a
503
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:55.000
thing that exists outside of my brain. And so because
504
00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:57.559
of that, it keeps the flow up. The other thing
505
00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:02.839
is I find kind of productivity mindset of attaching to
506
00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:07.119
a number of words for me is very counterproductive. I
507
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:10.519
want to just get into a sense of Look, it's
508
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:13.599
like I'm gardening right. If you go to the garden,
509
00:30:14.119 --> 00:30:16.880
you don't be You're not upset with yourself that the
510
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:20.599
tomatoes didn't grow enough tomatoes today, you know, because that's
511
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:23.720
not your job. Your job is to be available to
512
00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:27.519
allow to create the conditions so that tomatoes can grow,
513
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:30.880
and then the tomatoes will naturally grow. So I try
514
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:34.000
to stay away from going you have to do this
515
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:37.880
many words. I rather think you have to you have
516
00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:42.000
to show up for your book every day and for
517
00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:45.680
a certain period of time. And what I find is
518
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:49.400
doing that I end up doing a lot anyway. And
519
00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:52.079
so the word count, you know, you need to know
520
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:54.759
it for sort of the overall thing or kind of
521
00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:58.720
getting oh I'm halfway there, But really having a daily
522
00:30:58.759 --> 00:31:04.400
word count is is really something to feel a sense
523
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:08.240
of productivity, and it's not like we're hammering out widgets
524
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:11.599
in the factory are we Like, it's a different kind
525
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:14.640
of activity. So that's my two cents on it.
526
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:18.960
Anyway, Antonio, I think my question was going to be
527
00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:22.680
obviously your student of language, you know, you studied the
528
00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:28.079
great symbol of music and literature, when did you find
529
00:31:28.359 --> 00:31:31.720
that you would sort of hit your stride in terms
530
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:36.079
of like, I know what these comparisons sort of look like,
531
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:39.039
I know what great language looks like. But when did
532
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:41.119
you find a moment where you're like, oh, I've hit
533
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.000
on my own sort of identity now and this is
534
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:45.599
me starting to come out.
535
00:31:46.759 --> 00:31:51.640
Yeah, that's such a great question, Chris. I feel like
536
00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:57.920
I feel like no one ever really feels like they've
537
00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:02.160
gotten there, right. I feel like it's a I also feel.
538
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:05.720
And that's another thing that being in bands and music
539
00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:08.960
really taught me, because you know, all bands and often
540
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:12.160
you can track their development by listening to their music.
541
00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:17.839
Like Nirvana started out covering love Buzz, which was a
542
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:20.839
cover tune, and they would start every show with it
543
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:24.359
because it kind of grounded their purpose and their energy.
544
00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:27.400
But of course they grew out of that eventually and
545
00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:32.640
so I feel it's a natural thing, but I think
546
00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:37.880
slavishly copying is not the thing. It's sort of intentionally
547
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:42.880
looking at something and being inspired by it and actually
548
00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:46.039
teasing apart what is it that makes it work? You know,
549
00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:51.119
And to that end I recommend, and I know this
550
00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:53.119
is a bit of a diversion from your question, but
551
00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:56.519
I think it's an important thing for writers. Is I
552
00:32:56.599 --> 00:33:04.200
recommend really rereading things, Like Vladimer Nabokov says, there's no reading,
553
00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:08.680
there's only rereading. Right, So if something is really working
554
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:14.240
for you, a chapter like or a passage or a
555
00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:18.519
sentence or a book like, read it and read it
556
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:21.799
and study it and map it out, like until you
557
00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:26.000
know it intimately, and then it kind of becomes part
558
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:30.279
of your toolkit. It seeps into your DNA, and then
559
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:35.799
you spontaneously will start reproducing it without even having to think, oh,
560
00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:41.400
this is what I'm going to do. I remember, you know,
561
00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:46.359
Ernest Hemingway is the Farewell to Arms that you know.
562
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:51.519
I remember reading that book and it seems like nothing's happening.
563
00:33:51.559 --> 00:33:55.400
It's World War One, they're in Italy, they're drinking, you know,
564
00:33:56.640 --> 00:34:00.359
two fingers of paranoral. You know, there and they're just
565
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:03.480
drinking and far off in the distance, some canning's blowing
566
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:08.800
up somewhere. And I remember the seventh chapter, after thinking,
567
00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:12.039
after every chapter for seven chapters, I thought, I'm not
568
00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:14.960
going to read this anymore. This is just nothing's happening.
569
00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:20.840
And I was in tears in the seventh chapter, and
570
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:23.880
I was like, how did he do that to me?
571
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:28.559
Because if you'd ask me, this is the world's most
572
00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:32.880
boring book. Nothing was happening but other than me keeping reading.
573
00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:38.360
And so I must have read those seven chapters again
574
00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:42.639
and again and again and again because I wanted to
575
00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:46.000
figure out how do you do that to someone? How
576
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:50.039
do you affect someone so powerfully while seemingly doing nothing?
577
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:58.440
And so I think that we all are kind of
578
00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:04.039
always in our own stuff. I think we get to
579
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:06.559
a point where we realize no matter how much we
580
00:35:06.679 --> 00:35:11.519
admire someone. You know, I love James Joyce, but I'm
581
00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:14.639
not from Dublin. I'm not trying to do the things
582
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:17.719
he's trying to do. Some of it I really apply,
583
00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:20.519
some of it doesn't. So I think the key to
584
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:23.159
getting your own style is to go deep into and
585
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:28.000
really tease it apart, and then, as you know, it intimately.
586
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:31.000
Some of it will stick, some of it won't, some
587
00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:34.360
of it will become in your DNA. And then you'll,
588
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:40.239
I think when you start thinking about books as I'm
589
00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:44.079
writing the book only I could write, I think that's
590
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:47.480
when you all of that learning and study will come
591
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:51.440
out as your own style. That's the hardest thing, you know,
592
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:54.239
the techniques and stuff we can absorb, we can learn.
593
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:58.800
It's really hard to copy, you know, Hemingwear, James Joyce.
594
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:05.199
Many have tried, everyone has failed. So like, I'm never
595
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:07.599
worried about oh I'm going to sound like some writer
596
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:12.480
I love. What's more important or harder is oh am
597
00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:14.679
I going to try to write the book that the
598
00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:19.039
writer I love has already written? And I think that's
599
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:21.800
the piece where your original voice comes from. Is the
600
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:25.559
what am I writing about? Not the how am I
601
00:36:25.639 --> 00:36:32.039
writing it. It's way easier to inadvertently or advertently copy
602
00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:37.679
someone's topic than copy someone's style, because style is just
603
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:41.960
so hard. But yeah, and so really the focus there
604
00:36:41.960 --> 00:36:46.920
for individuality is, hey, can someone else write this book?
605
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:51.360
Is this a book someone have already seen written? Is it?
606
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:53.760
You know? And I think if someone else can do it,
607
00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:57.559
let them do it. The book that you need to
608
00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:00.840
write is the one that no one else could have written.
609
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:04.639
It has to be something that's that's imprinted with your
610
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:10.079
like a fingerprint. I think that's when you're really doing it.
611
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:13.679
But it takes, you know, like Miles Davis used to say,
612
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:16.239
it takes a long time to sound like yourself.
613
00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:21.320
Yeah, brilliant. That's some great advice there, Thank you. What
614
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:23.360
we're gonna do is part two of the show. Another
615
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:26.760
little video popping up right now, and when we come back, Antonio,
616
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.039
hopefully you can tell people that may not have heard
617
00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:31.599
about Black Cherokee what that's all about. And we'll get
618
00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:33.320
stuck into that. So part two.
619
00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:49.199
Yeah, so Antonio, Black Cherokee.
620
00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:50.920
Can you let everybody know what that's all about? Please?
621
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:56.519
Yeah. So. Black Cherokee is a coming of age novel
622
00:37:56.679 --> 00:38:00.599
set in the Southern United States in the nineteen nineties.
623
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:05.119
It follows the life and the growing up of a
624
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:08.920
young girl, Ophelia Blue Rivers, who, like the title of
625
00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:14.159
the book suggest, is both black and Cherokee, and although
626
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:20.360
she's born into these two traditions, both of them kind
627
00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:24.480
of reject her. They're both kind of like, hey, you're
628
00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:27.039
not black enough for the black folks, you're not Cherokee
629
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:30.679
enough for the Cherokee. And the book is really about
630
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:36.119
her figuring out how to be herself and what that
631
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:39.599
means in a world where the community she belongs to
632
00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:42.320
have basically said, hey, you don't belong.
633
00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:47.239
It is a fantastic concept. And I've been looking into
634
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:49.159
the sort of reviews and stuff for this, and it's
635
00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:52.559
obviously had high praise for what it's done and represented.
636
00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:55.679
But the interesting thing that comes straight to mind, and
637
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:58.719
it's something I've done, so I know people sometimes like myself,
638
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:01.960
wasn't really I didn't really question writing a female character.
639
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:04.800
But did you ever consider this being a different character
640
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:07.239
or was a Filia always the person for this story?
641
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:12.519
Yeah? I You know. One of my big things is
642
00:39:12.519 --> 00:39:17.320
that I always push back against the idea of authors
643
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:23.719
having very clear intentions that they execute to perfection and
644
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:27.599
then and and it means exactly what they think. I feel.
645
00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:31.000
It's a lot like saying, well, how did you fall?
646
00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:34.639
Explain to me why you fell in love with this person?
647
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:38.159
And and we all have reasons that we come up
648
00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:41.679
with after the fact, but we also all know that
649
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:47.159
the feeling of falling in love is an instant overwhelming, kinetic,
650
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:50.559
like in the body feeling. And that's how I feel.
651
00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:54.400
This is like Ophelia and Grandma. I was traveling in
652
00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:59.880
the US South, an awful lot and the landscape and
653
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:05.039
a history that seemed to never die, the living history
654
00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:10.800
imprinted on me. And then one day I had like
655
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:16.760
a visitation this view of the landscape rural South Carolina.
656
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:19.280
I knew it was there. It was a bend in
657
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:25.599
the river. There was this grandmother and her grandchild and
658
00:40:25.639 --> 00:40:29.760
they were they were Afro Indigenous. I knew that part.
659
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:35.280
And that was about it, and and and it came
660
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:38.280
to me like a mystery all at once. And I
661
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:40.880
think writing the book is how I tried to solve
662
00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:41.440
the mystery.
663
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:46.880
Yeah, I'm going to say so.
664
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:51.559
Yeah.
665
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:53.840
Obviously, going back to what you said before about your
666
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:56.280
advice in terms of write the book that only you
667
00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:00.440
can write. How is this book then the book that
668
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:02.920
only you could bring to the world.
669
00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:08.760
Absolutely, it's a great thing because you know, a lot
670
00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:12.960
of times, I'm sure y'all have heard the adage write
671
00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:17.559
what you know, and so you might think, well, you're
672
00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:22.239
not American, you're not Cherokee, you're not a woman, and
673
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:25.800
almost all the characters of women. So you're definitely breaking
674
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:30.679
that boo. I think this is the book that only
675
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:33.840
I could write, because I would go to the South,
676
00:41:34.599 --> 00:41:38.320
and you know, when you're used to seeing something, it
677
00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:43.360
almost doesn't register with you anymore. So I write about this,
678
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:47.480
and I'll give an example. The White House is I
679
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:50.400
write about it in Black Cherokee. It's a real place.
680
00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:54.639
The town that Stone River is based on is called
681
00:41:54.719 --> 00:41:58.639
rock Hill, South Carolina, just across the border from Charlotte,
682
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:02.960
North Carolina. And at the top of the hill, at
683
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:05.440
one of the tallest points in the town, there's a
684
00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:10.199
huge galopia of a house called the White House, and
685
00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:13.480
it was owned by the White family, and out front
686
00:42:13.559 --> 00:42:19.320
there's a plaque that says this is where soldiers who
687
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:24.440
fought in the Civil War, Southern soldiers would come to
688
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:31.800
convalesce and to get a rest and receive care at
689
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:35.039
this house, and it was commemorated. And I'm sitting here thinking,
690
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:43.239
this town it's shocking, right because you're saying that this
691
00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:49.000
house offered care and rest to the people fighting to
692
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:52.960
enslave the ancestors of half of the people who are
693
00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:58.639
still here in this town. And so I was blown
694
00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:01.760
away by how the his was alive and living and
695
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:06.559
at that point exactly like it is in Black Cherokee.
696
00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:11.400
There was a white high school, a black high school,
697
00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:15.400
and then one that was like for one that was mixed,
698
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:18.039
but it was for only upper class people because it
699
00:43:18.119 --> 00:43:22.639
was sown that way. And what shocked me was they
700
00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:25.159
just took it for granted, like it was like, whatever,
701
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:28.159
this is just normal. And so I think only I
702
00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:33.119
could write this book because it needed an outsider to
703
00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:38.159
see it with new eyes, to see how interesting it
704
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:41.679
was and how shocking it was, and how complex and
705
00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:46.639
sometimes very beautiful it was and sometimes very terrible. But
706
00:43:47.119 --> 00:43:49.480
to them, they're just kind of like shrugged, this is
707
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:52.239
no big deal. It had to be someone from the
708
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:56.039
outside who could see it from both sides. And because
709
00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:59.679
I was traveling at the time as a as a like,
710
00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:03.760
I working for BlackBerry, the cell phone company, and so
711
00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:07.400
I got to see every different side. I was black,
712
00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:10.280
so I would go to the black clubs. I was
713
00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:13.320
doing business, so I would hang out with the wife folks,
714
00:44:13.719 --> 00:44:16.719
and then I had indigenous friends. I had Cherokee friends
715
00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:20.039
as well, so I really felt like any one of
716
00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:22.559
them couldn't tell the story the way I could tell
717
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:25.599
it where I could see everything from a distance. And
718
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:29.360
so that's what I feel how I feel about it,
719
00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:32.239
And it's a really forgotten part of history, the fact
720
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:37.760
that what they call the five civilized tribes, the Cherokee
721
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:41.519
is the largest of them, but the elite in each
722
00:44:41.559 --> 00:44:48.719
of those tribes all had slaves. And when in eighteen
723
00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:53.119
thirty two Andrew Jackson, I know an American president misbehaving,
724
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:59.039
I mean, whoever thought it? So? Andrew Jackson, American President.
725
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:02.599
Here is one of the most infamous laws ever to
726
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:07.159
go through the US Congress, the Indian Removal Act. And basically,
727
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:10.239
like it sounds, they were going to move all of
728
00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:12.719
them out of the southeast US so they could take
729
00:45:12.760 --> 00:45:17.199
the land. And they gave them land in Oklahoma, thousands
730
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:20.440
of miles away, and they had to walk there, and
731
00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:23.440
that walk is known as the Trail of Tears. And
732
00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:27.920
so they took all the enslaved black folks with them,
733
00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:30.599
because you know, if you've got to take all your wealth,
734
00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:34.679
the wealth that can carry itself is very handy. And
735
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:39.480
so you have this situation where fast forward to twenty
736
00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:46.880
eight nineteen. For hundreds of years, folks have been racially black, culturally, Cherokee,
737
00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:53.360
so basically in this no man's land, and to this day,
738
00:45:53.719 --> 00:45:57.360
only one of the tribes, those five tribes have admitted
739
00:45:57.440 --> 00:46:00.599
them as full citizens, the Cherokee. They did it in
740
00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:05.360
twenty nineteen, so very recently. So this is what I
741
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:09.280
mean by history that never dies, history that never stays
742
00:46:09.320 --> 00:46:12.800
in the past. It's alive and walking around here. And
743
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:16.599
I just felt being an outsider, I could just see
744
00:46:16.599 --> 00:46:18.920
it differently. You know, when a stranger comes in your
745
00:46:18.920 --> 00:46:24.239
house they notice things that you just haven't noticed for years.
746
00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:27.480
You're like, oh, yeah, I guess, I guess that is broken.
747
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:31.199
I never saw that, and so yeah, so anyway, that's
748
00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:34.159
a history lesson. But yeah, I think it's important because
749
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:35.519
it's forgotten history.
750
00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:39.440
I haven't mentioned history so many times obviously throughout the book,
751
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:42.920
and it's based in a different era. And being an outsider,
752
00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:44.880
how important do you think it is for you as
753
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:48.039
an outsider to represent that history accurately and how much
754
00:46:48.079 --> 00:46:49.199
research did go into that?
755
00:46:51.159 --> 00:46:55.920
Yeah, well, you nailed it. I personally, I think writers
756
00:46:55.960 --> 00:47:02.400
should write what they don't know, because it would be
757
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:05.480
a very boring book if we all just wrote characters
758
00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:11.199
that were exactly like us. Yeah, right, And so I
759
00:47:11.239 --> 00:47:13.519
think it's important that we write what we don't know.
760
00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:16.360
But I think it's really important that what you just
761
00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:18.920
said get it. You got to get it right. You
762
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:21.920
got to get it right. So you know, there's probably
763
00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:26.360
ten scholars on the Black Freedmen is what they're called
764
00:47:26.800 --> 00:47:30.519
in America, like ten people who are who know the history.
765
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:36.760
I probably spoke at some point to about seven of them. Well,
766
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:38.760
you know, it might have just been a quick email
767
00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:44.599
exchange to to some of them. Ta Miles, who is
768
00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:49.760
a professor of history in Harvard and recipient recipient of
769
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:54.199
the MacArthur Fellowship, they call it the Genius Fellowship. She
770
00:47:54.440 --> 00:47:57.280
gave me the reading list, like the initial reading list
771
00:47:57.400 --> 00:47:59.760
of like you know, I wrote to her, I said, hey,
772
00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:02.360
I'm trying to do this. I don't want to get
773
00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:05.760
it wrong. Could you help me? And she just said, ah, yeah,
774
00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:11.199
here's twenty four books. So I was like, thank you.
775
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:15.599
And then, you know, the Language Center of the Cherokee Nation.
776
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:19.400
I spent a lot of time with their, spent a
777
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:23.800
lot of time learning from actual Cherokee mythology and fables
778
00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:27.880
that they've written down. Like, to be honest, like about
779
00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:31.559
eight percent of the research I've done appears in the book.
780
00:48:32.119 --> 00:48:35.559
I just enjoyed it so much. And I think that's
781
00:48:35.599 --> 00:48:38.760
why I like writing what I don't know, because it
782
00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:43.320
forces me to learn new things. Like cooking dominates the book,
783
00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:47.480
like Grandma Blues a cook, Ophelia's a cook. I never cook,
784
00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:53.280
But in order to get it right, I took courses
785
00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:57.039
in Southern soul food cooking. So that and I cooked
786
00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:01.400
all those dishes, every dish that they're cooking in Black Cherokee.
787
00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:04.960
I cooked it. Probably very poorly. I don't I wouldn't
788
00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:08.000
share it with you, fellas, but but I did it
789
00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:10.519
because I wanted to know, Hey, how do you actually
790
00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:13.599
do this? And so that's kind of the writer I am.
791
00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:16.079
I want to I want to learn. I want to learn,
792
00:49:16.199 --> 00:49:21.239
And yeah, you are paranoid about getting it wrong. And
793
00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:26.679
it's extremely satisfying when you know Cherokee elders have read
794
00:49:26.679 --> 00:49:29.800
the book and and and said, oh there were things
795
00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:34.639
in it they didn't know. And you know a lot
796
00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:38.920
of indigenous folks across North America have embraced a book
797
00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:41.639
and you know, to see it on a table next
798
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:46.360
to Lewis Eldridge like I saw it a couple months ago.
799
00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:49.800
Who is a famous Indigenous Cherokee writer and it's on
800
00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:54.159
a table next to her. That's uh, it's really it
801
00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:58.559
feels really satisfying to know that, you know, you didn't
802
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:01.239
get it wrong. I mean, good lord, that's it's just
803
00:50:01.400 --> 00:50:05.400
you know, it's just you dread that by getting it
804
00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:09.960
right is so fulfilling. And also it builds bridges between
805
00:50:10.119 --> 00:50:14.039
cultures because now people are going to learn that history
806
00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:17.239
that would have never read it, you know, and so
807
00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:20.679
but but it's not I think, you know, people are
808
00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:25.039
scared of stepping on people's toes. But what I found
809
00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:29.360
is that if you honor folks and treat them like
810
00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:31.639
like you would want to be treated. You know, if
811
00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:34.239
it was my history, how would I want it to
812
00:50:34.239 --> 00:50:36.880
be treated? And I think if you come to it
813
00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:40.360
with that, with that kind of humble and open heart,
814
00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:44.679
and you know, read twenty four books, you know, and
815
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:48.639
do it right, I you know, it's a it's very
816
00:50:48.760 --> 00:50:51.480
very fulfilling, and I think it does a service to
817
00:50:51.559 --> 00:50:55.679
people outside of those cultures who may not have an
818
00:50:55.719 --> 00:50:58.719
access point to to learn about it.
819
00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:02.159
Yes, my question.
820
00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:05.679
With oh sorry, I was just going to say, with
821
00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:10.159
so many historical points and obviously in the present to
822
00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:13.519
start from how did you land in the nineties? Like
823
00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:17.000
what was that about? In terms of, oh, this is
824
00:51:17.079 --> 00:51:18.159
my starting point.
825
00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:30.559
Yeah, I wanted it to be pre cell phone, and
826
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:35.519
I also wanted it to be in a time that
827
00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:39.960
I had been alive and been a kid in so
828
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:42.039
that I could speak to that. So a lot of
829
00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:45.719
that music, I was dancing to it when it came out,
830
00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:48.880
the same way Opheelua was, and I just felt like
831
00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:51.840
that would give it a kind of uh, Like I
832
00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:54.679
felt like I was already so far out on so
833
00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:57.800
many things that weren't my experience. I was like, I
834
00:51:57.880 --> 00:52:01.440
want to nail the time period, the culture and the
835
00:52:01.519 --> 00:52:04.559
clothes and so, and the best way to do that
836
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:08.079
was to be like, you know, I was listening to
837
00:52:08.159 --> 00:52:11.840
all those groups. You know, I wasn't fangirling over USh here,
838
00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:15.079
but you know I I but I heard the music
839
00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:17.320
and I listened to it and I appreciated it. So
840
00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:19.960
that was a big part of it. And I wanted
841
00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:24.440
it to be pretty cell phone because part of what
842
00:52:24.559 --> 00:52:27.360
I was trying to do is create this sense of
843
00:52:27.400 --> 00:52:31.079
the past never dying, and of the future haunting the
844
00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:34.199
present and the past haunting the present. And I feel
845
00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:35.880
like as soon as you put it in the cell
846
00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:40.519
phone era you dated. But that first part of Black Cherokee,
847
00:52:41.079 --> 00:52:43.119
you know, people have told me, Wow, that could be
848
00:52:43.159 --> 00:52:46.679
the nineties, but it could also be the eighteen nineties
849
00:52:46.719 --> 00:52:51.039
because it's rural and you know, and I'm staying, I'm
850
00:52:51.079 --> 00:52:56.440
trying to create a pocket of a space where time
851
00:52:56.519 --> 00:53:03.239
and temporality just collapses, and and that's that's very intentional.
852
00:53:03.400 --> 00:53:09.480
And the latest time I can do that, it's Wisdom nineties. Yeah,
853
00:53:10.039 --> 00:53:10.800
it is. Yeah.
854
00:53:11.079 --> 00:53:13.599
I love the idea of you working for BlackBerry and going, yeah,
855
00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:15.559
I'm not writing about anything that's got phones in it.
856
00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:22.119
It's the devil, you know.
857
00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:25.920
All Right, guys, if you've got any questions for Antony,
858
00:53:26.079 --> 00:53:28.000
please send them in. We're going to ask us staple
859
00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:31.239
questions right after this little video, which is the final
860
00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:48.639
round community questions coming right, Okay, okay, Chris, do you
861
00:53:48.679 --> 00:53:51.880
want to start us off with the staple questions? Yeah?
862
00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:54.400
So one of our staple questions is if you could
863
00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:57.920
take any character from fiction and make that character your own.
864
00:53:58.079 --> 00:53:59.960
Which character would you choose and what would you do
865
00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:01.119
with them?
866
00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:01.880
Oh?
867
00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:10.519
If I could just jack characters? Oh man, Oh that's
868
00:54:10.599 --> 00:54:16.599
so hard. Y'all gon't do this to me. Okay, let's go,
869
00:54:16.960 --> 00:54:17.320
let's go.
870
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:29.639
I'm in it. I would love to have the Devil
871
00:54:30.400 --> 00:54:31.880
from Paradise lost.
872
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:36.079
Oh yeah, I.
873
00:54:36.039 --> 00:54:40.320
Would love to have him in modern times as like
874
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:48.719
a rebel, like leading like a rebellion somewhere because the beaches,
875
00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:53.000
right like, he's the ultimate, like Chigua vera figure like
876
00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:56.639
like better to rain and better to rain in hell
877
00:54:56.760 --> 00:55:05.880
than serve in heaven, right like, it's it's beautiful. Gosh. Yeah,
878
00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:08.840
So do I get one or I'm thinking the more
879
00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:09.159
is that.
880
00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:12.360
If but one's one's fine. It is a tough on
881
00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:13.840
the spot question, so it's up to you.
882
00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:19.440
Okay, well I'll drop just for balance's sake. I'll pick
883
00:55:19.480 --> 00:55:22.840
a female character that I would love to have as
884
00:55:22.920 --> 00:55:35.159
my own. I really like the weird ghost daughter in
885
00:55:35.320 --> 00:55:39.880
Tony Morrison's Beloved. Beloved is their name. She's the title character.
886
00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:43.679
She's kind of like she comes back from the like
887
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:48.079
they don't really say it, but she's basically was murdered
888
00:55:48.079 --> 00:55:50.519
by her mom and then shows back up. But she
889
00:55:50.639 --> 00:55:55.000
has weird doll features and weird emotions and I'm like,
890
00:55:55.519 --> 00:55:58.679
I always felt like, Wow, I would love to tell
891
00:55:58.679 --> 00:56:02.159
the story of what what was she up to in between?
892
00:56:03.119 --> 00:56:05.360
I would love to do that. So there you go.
893
00:56:05.440 --> 00:56:05.960
There's two.
894
00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:11.000
That's a nice one. Yeah yeah, throw a different one
895
00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:15.679
in there, just on the music element. One dream duet
896
00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:17.039
that you could sing with.
897
00:56:18.400 --> 00:56:27.519
Wh wow one dad alive or thank you, thank you
898
00:56:27.599 --> 00:56:32.320
and dream do that? My goodness? I mean, she only
899
00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:36.079
died recently, but I would just love and she would.
900
00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:38.880
It's not like I'm and I could hold my own
901
00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:41.519
with her. I can't. But I would just love to
902
00:56:41.559 --> 00:56:43.639
be on stage with Aretha Franklin.
903
00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:45.360
Yeah it could show.
904
00:56:46.480 --> 00:56:50.559
Yeah, it would. Basically it would just be me shutting
905
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:54.239
up and having a really nice seat to Aretha Franklin.
906
00:56:54.760 --> 00:56:57.599
But I would. I would give it a shot.
907
00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:01.679
Nice Okay. So the other question was if you could
908
00:57:01.719 --> 00:57:05.079
change the ending to anything open to TV shows, movies,
909
00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:09.800
or novels, any ending changed it for what reason? I'm why?
910
00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:14.000
Oh man, Well, if you're a Game of Thrones fan
911
00:57:14.039 --> 00:57:17.320
and you saw that seven season seven, I mean I
912
00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:21.559
feel I feel like, if it's gonna be that bad,
913
00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:24.880
give me a shot. I would change it. I just
914
00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:29.719
felt like, I mean, Hollywood is is often you know,
915
00:57:29.920 --> 00:57:32.880
we know that Hollywood is kind of out of original
916
00:57:32.920 --> 00:57:36.119
ideas like everything is either a remake of an old movie,
917
00:57:36.840 --> 00:57:41.320
an American version of a movie from somewhere else, or
918
00:57:41.559 --> 00:57:45.119
a novel or a graphic novel it made into it.
919
00:57:45.159 --> 00:57:48.599
And so with Graymont Thrones, I felt like you could
920
00:57:48.639 --> 00:57:52.880
tell that they ran out a novel and it was
921
00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:56.519
really disappointing for a series that you know, I really enjoyed,
922
00:57:56.559 --> 00:57:59.119
and so yeah, I would love to I would love
923
00:57:59.159 --> 00:58:02.440
to take my own crack at ending that series.
924
00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:06.960
Yeah, I agree, such a letdown. Okay, what we're gonna
925
00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:09.199
do iss ask a couple of questions because time's pushing on,
926
00:58:09.280 --> 00:58:11.360
and then we'll squeeze our last ones and if we can.
927
00:58:12.400 --> 00:58:17.360
Doc says question, when you were in SC, did you
928
00:58:17.480 --> 00:58:21.000
visit the low Country and the Gulla areas?
929
00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:25.920
Yeah? Absolutely absolutely. We were out with the goosey Galas.
930
00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:31.000
It's funny, but the Gulla, like I find because I'm
931
00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:35.280
from the Caribbean, so a lot of the language like Gulla.
932
00:58:35.559 --> 00:58:38.199
The areas in the sort of east that they're talking
933
00:58:38.199 --> 00:58:42.079
about are where sort of black folks kind of landed
934
00:58:42.119 --> 00:58:44.800
and they never left and so they speak in a
935
00:58:44.880 --> 00:58:49.079
way that's kind of archaic and I found but I
936
00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:54.280
found it very reminiscent of Barbados and other parts of
937
00:58:54.320 --> 00:58:58.880
the Caribbean as well. So but yeah, it's a whole
938
00:58:59.679 --> 00:59:02.480
like it's a whole, beautiful way of speaking. And I'm
939
00:59:02.719 --> 00:59:06.039
I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan because I
940
00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:09.360
feel as a Caribbean person, I feel those are the
941
00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:11.519
Americans I can connect to the best.
942
00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:16.079
Nice And he also says, do you also know the
943
00:59:16.119 --> 00:59:17.800
story of Robert Small's.
944
00:59:18.440 --> 00:59:22.199
No, I don't. I don't maybe talking to them you
945
00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:24.960
for that, I'm taking notes, thank you.
946
00:59:26.599 --> 00:59:29.719
Andya says we're in the South, can you find the
947
00:59:29.719 --> 00:59:33.079
best barbecue? I like mustard based SC barbecue.
948
00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:38.960
Well, look, this is a contentious issue, gentlemen. I know
949
00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:42.159
you're from the UK, so this might sound like just
950
00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:47.239
a low risk question, but this is a contentious issue
951
00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:52.199
across the South. Who has the best barbecue mustard based?
952
00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:57.119
I would say, look, I do like South Carolina barbecue,
953
00:59:57.639 --> 01:00:02.599
And I got some friends in Charles that that I
954
01:00:02.719 --> 01:00:06.400
that I like that I like the best. But that's private,
955
01:00:06.519 --> 01:00:09.079
like they're not a store or anything. But I mean
956
01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:14.519
there's I was recently recently in New Orleans and they
957
01:00:14.559 --> 01:00:16.719
got a whole other thing going on over there. So
958
01:00:16.719 --> 01:00:18.920
I'm not gonna say it's better, but I'm going to
959
01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:21.480
say I do like it as much, and so I
960
01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:23.599
don't want to get myself in trouble.
961
01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:31.599
I think that stocks and and he says, Miss Daniel
962
01:00:31.599 --> 01:00:34.760
loves Memphis and NC barbecue, So I don't know. That
963
01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:36.679
sounds like a whole trip me and christ need to
964
01:00:36.679 --> 01:00:38.440
do because I love barbecue, and we could go and
965
01:00:38.920 --> 01:00:39.960
we can go figure.
966
01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:44.559
Out Guys, if you're coming, let me know, we can
967
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:48.599
make that a trio because I am I'm an addict.
968
01:00:49.119 --> 01:00:51.400
Once you get like fifty people together to just go
969
01:00:51.440 --> 01:00:54.400
and experience barbecue across America, how good would that be?
970
01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:58.679
Yeah, it would be. Honestly, that would be one of
971
01:00:58.719 --> 01:01:02.679
the best road trips ever, just the all barbecue Southern
972
01:01:02.840 --> 01:01:07.679
US road trip, right, it'd be beautiful.
973
01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:11.519
No, So, Antonio, I know, I know obviously we push
974
01:01:11.559 --> 01:01:14.800
for time. So I'm just going to ask you st of.
975
01:01:14.800 --> 01:01:18.000
The final question is, obviously, people listening back to this,
976
01:01:18.119 --> 01:01:20.679
people watching it, where can they find all that good
977
01:01:20.719 --> 01:01:23.320
information about you? Where can they find you on socials?
978
01:01:23.400 --> 01:01:25.320
Where can they buy your books things like that?
979
01:01:26.440 --> 01:01:31.159
Yeah? Absolutely, so socials is easy. It's just Antonio Michael
980
01:01:31.199 --> 01:01:38.079
Downing on any of the socials I'm there. I am
981
01:01:38.280 --> 01:01:41.079
way more active on Instagram. So if you're going to
982
01:01:41.119 --> 01:01:43.920
send me a message, or you got something you want
983
01:01:43.920 --> 01:01:47.719
to show me, or you have better barbecue than we've named,
984
01:01:48.559 --> 01:01:51.840
if you want to know, so, Instagram is the place
985
01:01:51.880 --> 01:01:56.000
to hit me up at Antonio Michael Downing. If you're
986
01:01:56.079 --> 01:02:01.800
in the US, I mean, you can get Sagaboy and
987
01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:05.840
Black Cherokee anywhere in the in the US Barnes and
988
01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:13.639
Noble online, your local bookshop in the same thing. In Canada,
989
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:17.599
Sagaboy and and Black Cherokee you can get it anywhere there.
990
01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:22.960
In the UK and Europe, Sagaboy is available, as is
991
01:02:23.239 --> 01:02:26.599
Black Cherokee now, I believe, so you can order it
992
01:02:26.639 --> 01:02:30.199
online from online sources. They're not in the bookshops right now,
993
01:02:30.719 --> 01:02:35.360
but yeah, that's where you can get the books. You know,
994
01:02:35.599 --> 01:02:38.880
if you're in the podcast I assume you are. The
995
01:02:38.920 --> 01:02:41.679
next chapter is the name of Mine on on CBC
996
01:02:41.880 --> 01:02:45.800
Radio where I talk about books and reading interview authors
997
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:49.480
a lot like you guys are doing. So, so yeah,
998
01:02:49.480 --> 01:02:52.000
if you want to drop on by, that's awesome, and
999
01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:57.360
that's all the things. And Antoniomichael Downing dot com. Yeah,
1000
01:02:57.719 --> 01:03:00.920
it's also a great place to get all that information.
1001
01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:05.960
Yes, and it's a lovely website. They very nice. Yes
1002
01:03:06.280 --> 01:03:09.000
we are. We are past that hour. So Antonio, there's
1003
01:03:09.039 --> 01:03:10.840
so much more we could talk about you. You've written
1004
01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:14.079
children's books, this is a memoir. This Black Trees, the
1005
01:03:14.199 --> 01:03:17.039
Cherokees of fiction. So there's so much we could have
1006
01:03:17.039 --> 01:03:19.719
asked and still could ask at some stage. So you know,
1007
01:03:20.280 --> 01:03:22.639
we may even pick this conversation back up another time.
1008
01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:25.320
We would love to do a barbecue trip. But thank
1009
01:03:25.360 --> 01:03:27.920
you so much for joining us and talking all about
1010
01:03:27.920 --> 01:03:30.079
your story and your journey with us. It's been a
1011
01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:32.679
wonderful conversation. So for me, thank you very much and
1012
01:03:33.480 --> 01:03:34.719
passing you with it, Chris, before.
1013
01:03:34.519 --> 01:03:39.760
You wrap it up, thank you again, all right, Yeah,
1014
01:03:39.880 --> 01:03:41.760
just reater right what Chris said, thank you very much
1015
01:03:41.800 --> 01:03:43.519
for joining us. And I'm sure a lot of people
1016
01:03:44.159 --> 01:03:47.960
will pick Black Cherokee up and yeah, enjoyed the effort
1017
01:03:48.039 --> 01:03:49.679
and passion and love that you put into it.
1018
01:03:49.719 --> 01:03:51.679
So yeah, thank you amazing.
1019
01:03:51.760 --> 01:03:54.320
Yeah, thanks a lot, guys. It's been an honor, and
1020
01:03:54.480 --> 01:03:58.039
keep up the good work. This is the talking about
1021
01:03:58.119 --> 01:04:03.159
craft and writing is like my happy spot. So I'm
1022
01:04:03.199 --> 01:04:06.239
really excited that you guys are out here flying that flag,
1023
01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:08.000
so thank you brilliant all.
1024
01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:10.559
Right, thank you everyone for tuning in. Please do go
1025
01:04:10.599 --> 01:04:13.440
and check out the website. The link is in the
1026
01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:16.599
description for Antonio's website. And like Chris said, pick up
1027
01:04:16.639 --> 01:04:18.840
the books. Make sure you do give the video a like,
1028
01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:22.159
share it around, subscribe if you haven't, But also have
1029
01:04:22.239 --> 01:04:24.960
a great weekend because it's nice to have a good weekend.
1030
01:04:25.400 --> 01:04:28.440
There's lots of reading to do, obviously, but yeah, stay
1031
01:04:28.480 --> 01:04:30.960
safe and we'll see you all again next week with
1032
01:04:31.039 --> 01:04:33.119
the brand new show. So from us, this is goodbye.
1033
01:04:33.480 --> 01:04:47.320
See you'll very soon. Thank you guys,