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Hey everyone.
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Thanks for joining me for another episode.
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I'm your host Jesse Butts.
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Today we have a bonus episode featuring Zakiya Akerele, a PhD in religious education from Fordham and the author of Dump Your Degree.
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Zakiya has been kind enough to join us to chat about her expertise helping advanced degree holders control their careers.
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Zakiya welcome to the show.
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Thanks for joining us.
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Thank you for having me.
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Absolutely.
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So before we talk about your book and the process that you've identified, can you tell us a little bit about your own journey?
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For example, what happened with your career after earning your PhD in religious education?
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Yeah.
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So I had finished my degree in 2010.
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And at that time we were in a recession or maybe trying to come out of one.
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Regardless, I met a lot of challenges in finding employment.
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I wanted to join academia, become a professor and I just was not finding full-time employment.
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I did some adjuncting.
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Not too much in my field but found some adjunct roles.
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But after having gone through these transitions of unemployment and underemployment, I tried to figure out a way that I could do work that I enjoyed by creating my own opportunities and not waiting for someone to hire me.
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So for about three years, I did some consulting work, research, not necessarily directly related to my educational background, but that was able to transfer the skills that I had acquired in higher education were able to transfer into those roles and positions.
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And from that, I realized that there were many things that I enjoyed doing outside of higher education.
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So it allowed me to develop my CV in a, in a different, in a unique way.
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But I subsequently ended up becoming a professor for about five or six years.
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I, I was on a tenure track in religious studies.
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I took a break between those five years and did some world traveling and came back to it.
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And after that transitioned into being a full-time author.
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Just out of curiosity, what was your area of focus in religious studies?
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Well, I primarily focused on African traditional spirituality.
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And taught courses in women in religion, but primarily African and African American.
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Okay.
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So how long have you been, I believe you used the term full-time author, if I'm remembering correctly, how long have you been in that line of work?
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So it started during the pandemic.
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I was still teaching and at the time I was, I was pregnant with my second child.
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And in the middle of the pandemic and I didn't know what to do.
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I was teaching in the state of Florida.
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So I don't know if people follow Florida politics too well, but the way they were situating things were a little different from other states.
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And there was a requirement for me to go back into the classroom in person.
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And I had just given birth maybe less than two months on top of it still being in the heat of the pandemic.
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And I just was not interested in, in doing that, going back into the classroom.
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So I took family leave.
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And after that ended up not going back.
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Before we, we kind of dive into your book, was that a hard transition to move away from teaching?
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Or was it something that at that point you kind of felt like, I'm ready for something different?
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Yes, I was ready for something different.
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Definitely.
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I love teaching.
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And I particularly love teaching in the area that I taught in.
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I'm passionate about world religions in general.
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But also just teaching about culture and how people evolved and developed.
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But I realized that I also like my freedom.
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And while higher education gave me freedom that many people don't get.
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Right?
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So I only taught during the fall and spring.
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So I had my summers off if I wanted to, sometimes I did teach during summers.
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But I still wanted more freedom to be able to do things, to be able to spend with my family when I wanted to.
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And having someone else create a schedule for me wasn't working for my life at that time.
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So it was, it was a little bittersweet.
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I, I loved the classroom, but I also was ready to transition out of it.
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Yeah I mean, a pretty, pretty common tale on, on the podcast.
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So Zakiya, I, I think perhaps the best way to approach your book, Dump Your Degree, is to run through kind of the hypothetical that the show is based on.
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So let's say you're in grad school or maybe you've been out a few years and you don't feel like you want to pursue what you studied.
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You know, whether that would be joining academia or being a practitioner of some sort in your discipline.
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What do you do when you're in that situation?
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Where do you even start in your approach to all this?
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Yes.
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I, I would definitely start with a bit of reflection to see what it is you enjoy doing.
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I'm a proponent of doing what you enjoy.
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I know a lot of people say, Well, work is work.
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It pays the bills, or what have you.
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But I wish more people would enjoy the work.
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And even feel passionate about the work that they do.
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So reflecting on things you enjoy, things that you're talented, naturally talented at.
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And things that you have skills in, right?
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That you might have developed, whether it's through your journey through higher education or skills that you've developed, maybe you were self taught in an area, but something that you know, that you can do professionally.
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And after kind of reflecting on what are the things that I enjoy, what are the things that I'm good at, then doing some research on how those skills, those talents can be used in a career.
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We live in a, a great time in, in history where you can pretty much make money doing any and everything.
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Right?
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If you just do a bit of research, you can find ways to monetize work that you enjoy doing.
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So those are the two things reflection and then research and getting a plan of action together on what are the steps that it would take for you to transition into that field.
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You know, Let's say I've, I've gone through this reflection and I've, I've figured out, These are things I enjoy that I have some skill at and I have some aptitude.
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How roughly does that process work of translating those skills to a job hunt.
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Particularly if you've been in academia.
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You know, the skill at first might be teaching, but kind of once you suss it out, it's, you know, comfortable presenting in a large group.
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Is there kind of a way to, to maybe break down some of these skills into more atomic particles and as we kind of think about what we'd like to do instead?
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Yes, definitely.
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There are many skills that can be used even in freelancing, right?
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So I'm thinking of someone in academia.
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Myself, I transitioned into freelancing doing proofreading, and editing, and things like that because of my experience as a professor reading papers and just having that research and writing experience myself.
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It doesn't have to be so broad.
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It can be broken down into things that you are skilled at that can pretty much bring in an income while you're even thinking about the larger thing that you want to do.
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A lot of times people are just looking at, Oh, I have teaching and that's it.
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But there are so many things that teaching, or like I mentioned, research or writing or communication that can transfer into different avenues that will be able to bring you in an income.
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For example, right after I finished my doctorate, again, I mentioned that it was very challenging for me to find work in religious studies.
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Like people weren't looking for...
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that wasn't in hot demand.
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Right?
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But I did find work in research doing research management.
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And while they didn't specifically put, you know, the degree that I had as a requirement, I was able to lead with those skills.
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I was able to secure an interview and subsequently become hired as a consultant, doing research, even though the research background was completely different because of that, that skill, that was transferable.
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Also the organization that I worked for, they were particularly looking to connect with individuals in this community.
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They were from another state and they were doing research specifically in Florida.
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So not only did my skills matter, but my connections mattered.
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So I was able to leverage the people I knew, my connections to the larger community to be able to kind of show that I was a resource to them.
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So there are other things that you have that you might not be thinking are directly related to work, but they are.
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And if you lead with those things, that's why I wrote the book Dump Your Degree because most people solely look at the degree.
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What they have the educational background in.
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But that's not the end all be all to transitioning, but also to just getting higher, even within your field.
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How do you recommend people discover, I guess, for lack of a better term, those maybe indirect skills that ... like you were talking about, with research or like I mentioned, comfortable presenting in front of large groups.
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How do you recommend people, maybe unpack that a little bit?
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You know, one thing I've done is I've asked friends that were close to me.
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I said, If you could see me doing something aside from what you know me to do, what would it be?
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What are, what are some things that you think that I am good at?
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Because a lot of times people can see things that you can't see within yourself.
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And that's helped guide me as well.
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I'm like, you know what?
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I do enjoy doing that.
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I never thought about that.
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So people who you encounter on a regular basis may be able to highlight some of your talents that you're not aware of.
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Or that you, you take for granted, so to speak.
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Another thing would be, again, going back to the reflection part.
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Some things that we enjoyed doing as children that we kind of got conditioned away from because we were taught maybe they weren't functional or they didn't offer stability.
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Sometimes those very passions that we had in our youth could actually be something that is in line with our career down the road.
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So whatever might just be a hobby, could actually be your profession
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Yeah, I have to believe that I'm not the only podcaster who asked too many questions as a kid, and then decided to start an interview show.
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Oh goodness.
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I might need to get my son ready for a podcast.
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Because that kid asks a million questions a day.
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It's a, it's a great way to, to do it and, and have fun.
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But yeah, sorry for that little tangent.
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So, you know, in the process that we've discussed, we've reflected and figured out the skills and kind of the careers that, that look interesting.
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And we've kind of translated maybe that academic language to professional language, business language.
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What do you do next?
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S hould people just get the resume ready and jump on the job boards?
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Or what do you recommend at this point?
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I definitely don't recommend just jumping on the job boards because unfortunately, when you have AI that's skimming through resumes, you might not be translating what you have to offer very well on a resume.
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So I definitely...
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yeah, of course, get it ready.
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Have people look over it.
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But be open to rethinking how you present your resume.
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But also the main thing would be to reach out to your connections.
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Right?
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So people who are already in your circle of influence, your family, friends, letting them know, putting it out there, Hey, I'm in the process of transitioning from this field to another.
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If you or anyone you know has any insights or connections or anything that could be helpful to me along this journey, I'd appreciate it.
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So first starting there, because it's really about who you know in any industry, any field.
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Who you know is much better than what you know in many cases.
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Of course you have to know something in order to do the job well.
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But then I would also recommend getting on social media, particularly LinkedIn and other job sites because people need to know that you're available and they can know that by you don't have to scream, Hey, I'm looking for this.
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Even though that has been helpful to, to many people.
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But also producing content within that new field of interest to showcase that you are familiar with it.
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That you are open to helping or adding value to others within that particular field.
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And just getting yourself out there.
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And then also checking with maybe alumni groups on LinkedIn to see, like looking at profiles, who's connected in that industry as well that you can develop a relationship with and say, Hey, this is, you know, I see that we went, both, went to X, Y, and Z school.
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I'm really interested in this.
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Do you have any insights for helping me transition to this field?
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But connections are very key in making that transition.
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I think even more so than just hopping on a job board.
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Have you found with your clients or with yourself that connections, you know, maybe some close ones and maybe, you know, somebody from undergrad that you haven't talked in quite a bit, are they generally pretty open to grabbing a cup of coffee or whatever it might be?
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Yes, definitely.
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But of course you don't wanna, come out like salesy or, or needy or just so focused on self.
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You want to, like I said, build relationship.
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You could start by building a rapport first.
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Mentioning some commonalities, complimenting some of their posts.
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Letting them know, Hey, I really enjoyed this post that you wrote about whatever it is.
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But letting them know you're not just there to be a taker.
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But even if you're like in a position where you're like, Look, I see this job opening and they're the right person for, you know, me to get to in order for me to have this opportunity.
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There are still some ways that you can create a conversational approach to developing the relationship instead of just saying, Hey, can you help me get this job?
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But I definitely see most people want to help because they've been there themselves.
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You mentioned too putting content out there about what you're interested in, what you want to be doing.
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How do you put out content where you know you're not an expert, but you want to come across as someone who can do this role or be in this occupation successfully?
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I've heard some advice from others that say, You don't need to be an expert, but that you just need to be more knowledgable in an area than someone who doesn't know anything about it.
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So having a first step, you might have a first degree knowledge in a particular area, and you've developed a level of skillset at that level of knowledge and putting that out there.
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So say it's graphic design or some type of artistic talent, right?
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You don't have to be Picasso, but you might know how to do some basic skills in this and say, Hey, I am available.
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Or look at what I've created or I know how to make flyers.
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Right?
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You don't have to be an expert for many years to have some level of skill set that people may find value in.
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So don't set yourself back saying, Oh, well, I'm not there yet.
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Many people are not there yet.
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But also continuing your, your education journey, not necessarily through higher education in an institution like going back to get another degree, but maybe you get certifications, both free and paid courses that will help you develop your skills so that you continue to grow all while also creating content at every step of your journey.
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I, I assume you're, you're trying to influence two main groups.
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I'll call them peer influencers, you know, people who will say, Okay, clearly Zakiya really knows what she's talking about.
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I will recommend her or, you know, try to give her a leg up wherever I can.
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And then the other group I'm thinking about are the actual hiring managers who need to know that this person can do X, Y, Z in the job and they bring this unique thing.
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Is, is there anyone else we should be considering when we're creating this type of content?
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I would say yourself because a lot of times we think of hiring managers, we think of recruiters, we think of those gatekeepers or the people we need to impress to get a job.
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But you also have opportunity to create your own career without going that route as well.
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So, so for example, I mentioned freelancing before or consulting, right?
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So focusing on how to develop skills that even if those individuals aren't open to hiring you or bringing you on.
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Your skill set is still at a level where you can create job opportunities for yourself.
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So yes, definitely develop your skills.
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Get, like I mentioned, certifications, take courses that will help you in your career development.
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But also do that for yourself so that at any time, where those jobs might not be available to you or they might not be available right away, you still have the opportunity to earn an income and, and have a career while you wait.
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And one thing I should probably clarify too, when we're talking about creating content, I know so many think this means, Oh, I need to start a blog or a YouTube or TikTok channel, but it's probably much broader and, and you know, probably much more incremental than that.
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Is, is that fair?
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Yes, definitely.
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I know a lot of times...
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even myself, I, I have these grand ideas and I'm like, I gotta jump and do everything all at once.
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And it's definitely incremental as you mentioned.
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Doing one or two things, learning those skills as much as possible, or even trying a little bit of them all and, and seeing which one feels best to you.
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So a podcast works for you, whereas someone else it might not.
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Right?
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But a blog might be better because they write better.
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There are people like myself who are not big fans of social media but have to get on there and might not want to be on all social media platforms at once.
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So which one connects or aligns more so with your personality and the things that you enjoy and then focusing there.
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Let's say someone's in this journey.
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They've been making connections.
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They've been networking.
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They've been producing content that shows their skills, their aptitude.
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Going into the job board alone, it can be not the best path, but is this something you're doing simultaneously with all these activities?
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I guess I'm, I'm asking, ineloquently, How do all of these activities coalesce into finding and landing that job?
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Of course, many different approaches at once can be helpful.
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Right.
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Because you never know which one will land.
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So yes, apply for jobs.
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It depends on the field as well.
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Right.
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Because I know certain jobs really it is about who you know, who can open doors for you.
00:19:18.460 --> 00:19:25.387
Whereas others you know, you might have more luck by just going out on a job board or posting your resume on LinkedIn.
00:19:25.387 --> 00:19:27.218
And actually that is a good way.
00:19:27.407 --> 00:19:30.678
At least letting recruiters know that you're open.
00:19:30.682 --> 00:19:30.948
Right.
00:19:30.948 --> 00:19:36.407
I think there's a, a button that you can press where only the recruiters can see that you're open for work.
00:19:36.407 --> 00:19:46.688
So putting yourself out there, applying for jobs, connecting with connections and seeing what's available or letting people know that you are available to add value in whatever area this is.
00:19:46.953 --> 00:19:47.973
Reaching out to alum.
00:19:48.003 --> 00:19:50.013
All of those things can work.
00:19:50.013 --> 00:19:56.048
And you have to just try them out to see which works best, particularly for your industry and your career journey.
00:19:56.199 --> 00:19:58.148
So, that's the approach that I would take.
00:19:58.153 --> 00:20:12.829
Of course, I would suggest doing the relationship building first and simultaneously throughout the whole journey because typically making those connections helps individuals land roles, more so and more often than just going at it blind.
00:20:13.561 --> 00:20:18.632
Pretty early in the show, you mentioned creating your own opportunities.
00:20:19.070 --> 00:20:26.717
And you mentioned that, you know, this is an age where with a little bit of research, you can kind of make money doing almost anything.
00:20:27.131 --> 00:20:30.520
What exactly does that mean, Creating your own opportunities and making money?
00:20:30.520 --> 00:20:35.384
I mean, does this mean you have to be an entrepreneur or a freelancer?
00:20:35.384 --> 00:20:46.528
Are there ways to kind of take this approach maybe, and maybe we could define that a little bit, and still find full-time employment if you're more interested in working for a company than working solo?
00:20:47.169 --> 00:20:47.388
Yes.
00:20:47.394 --> 00:21:01.497
I definitely think, people should, even if you are working for a company, you should always have something in place where at any time, if you're let go, companies close, what have you, you won't just be stuck high and dry.
00:21:01.497 --> 00:21:03.749
Can't earn a living, can't pay your bills.
00:21:04.199 --> 00:21:10.981
I know I was taught, Get a good job, it's stable, you have benefits and then you retire and move on with life.
00:21:11.491 --> 00:21:15.842
But we recognize that that's not really a reality, right?
00:21:15.842 --> 00:21:17.451
That stability is an illusion.
00:21:17.689 --> 00:21:19.409
At any time, anything could happen.
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:29.355
So if you are working for others, still develop your career in a way where you're doing things on the side that won't stress you and take too much time.
00:21:29.355 --> 00:21:33.974
But that at any time, if you are let go, you still have something to fall back on.
00:21:33.974 --> 00:21:35.595
I know we used to say that about degrees.
00:21:35.595 --> 00:21:42.698
Oh, that getting a degree or getting even, a, a graduate degree, it'll give you the opportunity to have something to fall back on.
00:21:42.698 --> 00:21:47.920
But we are seeing now that not even the degrees alone um, offering that opportunity.
00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:52.950
So, having multiple streams of income or opportunities to create income is key.
00:21:53.319 --> 00:22:02.135
Whether that's through freelancing, whether that's through consulting, whether that's through content creation, because we see content creators are getting paid substantially now.
00:22:02.445 --> 00:22:16.384
Whatever that is, that is in alignment with something that you enjoy, which would be my preference, something that you're passionate about, so that at least when you're doing it, it doesn't feel like, Oh, this is an extra labor that I'm adding on to my full-time job.
00:22:17.424 --> 00:22:25.038
And I'm glad you brought up degrees again, because I, I wanted to circle back to that Dump Your Degree, and kind of how literally to take that.
00:22:25.402 --> 00:22:31.305
For example, I I have a master's in writing and publishing, and I primarily work in marketing.
00:22:31.848 --> 00:22:39.394
And I haven't led with my degree, but when people hear you have a master's in writing, you know, in marketing, there's a ton of writing.
00:22:39.394 --> 00:22:40.894
So people are glad to hear that.
00:22:41.315 --> 00:22:46.882
And I feel like most jobs, in general, you know, they're like, Oh, and Jesse has a strong writing background.
00:22:46.882 --> 00:22:47.905
That's that's valuable.
00:22:48.392 --> 00:22:50.818
One guest in particular, she had a PhD in literature.
00:22:51.463 --> 00:22:59.882
And she said that was a stumbling block for employers because they assumed, Oh my God, this person's gonna analyze everything to death.
00:22:59.882 --> 00:23:04.426
They're going to put in all of this, arcane, esoteric vocabulary.
00:23:04.803 --> 00:23:07.465
And, you know, it was a, a little bit of a roadblock.
00:23:07.471 --> 00:23:14.326
And she kind of deemphasized that, and how do we, or when should we kind of dump the degree?
00:23:14.326 --> 00:23:23.311
Like what points in the job process should we be maybe emphasizing or deemphasizing, our graduate degree specifically.
00:23:24.007 --> 00:23:28.267
When you see that it's not opening opportunities for you in your career.
00:23:28.606 --> 00:23:33.916
I learned early on right after finishing my PhD probably within the first six months or so.
00:23:34.007 --> 00:23:40.781
And I was like, this is not working, so I figured out ways to structure ... back then we were using cover letters more.
00:23:40.781 --> 00:23:43.241
I don't think people read them as much now.
00:23:43.615 --> 00:23:54.867
But I was emphasizing more so my talents and skills and the things that I could bring of value to that role as opposed to the degrees, especially when I was interviewing.
00:23:55.288 --> 00:24:02.218
And to be honest with you, there were times that I actually took a degree or two off of my resume to apply for certain jobs.
00:24:02.798 --> 00:24:10.753
And that was because I knew that people would have a bias in the hiring process because they thought, Okay, this person is overqualified.
00:24:11.203 --> 00:24:22.066
Ironically, some of those jobs were paying the same amount or at the same level as those were, that were requiring my level of education, even though I took the degrees off.
00:24:22.516 --> 00:24:25.036
So you have to really play around with it.
00:24:25.036 --> 00:24:26.596
It's a case by case situation.
00:24:26.596 --> 00:24:38.685
But when you see that people may be thinking you're overqualified or there's not a direct match or they're overlooking the skills that you might have to offer as opposed to, Oh, this person is highly educated.
00:24:39.046 --> 00:24:43.855
And they might, like you said, be bringing in all this stuff that we don't need.
00:24:44.226 --> 00:24:48.905
I would suggest you revisiting how you could deemphasize your degrees.
00:24:49.721 --> 00:24:51.968
Is it just things that they don't need?
00:24:51.968 --> 00:24:59.154
Or do they sometimes have a concern, I don't wanna pay for somebody who, you know, has, multiple degrees, they might think that they need to earn more.
00:24:59.275 --> 00:25:01.434
Is that ever a concern or, or not particularly?
00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:05.519
I have had that happen where I was in a job interview.
00:25:05.569 --> 00:25:09.589
It was related, I wanna say to like writing or I can't remember what it was.
00:25:09.589 --> 00:25:13.250
Many years ago, but it wasn't, definitely wasn't related to my degrees.
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:20.460
And the person was like, Oh, HR says you wanna earn top dollar because you have a PhD.
00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:25.303
You know, they kind of brought their bias with them in the interview process.
00:25:25.762 --> 00:25:29.212
And I actually had one personal experience where I was hired.
00:25:29.303 --> 00:25:31.313
I did not let them know that I had a PhD.
00:25:31.313 --> 00:25:32.962
I did let them know that I had a master's.
00:25:33.268 --> 00:25:37.738
I was hired and I was on the process of transitioning out of that role.
00:25:38.127 --> 00:25:41.577
And so they were looking for people to fill my position in others.
00:25:41.968 --> 00:25:49.617
And I overheard the manager who was in the process of looking through resumes saying, Oh, this person has a PhD.
00:25:49.617 --> 00:25:51.087
What does she want this job for?
00:25:51.093 --> 00:25:58.391
And they were about to, you know, basically throw hers to the side because of her level of education.
00:25:58.391 --> 00:26:00.131
And I don't think I was supposed to hear that.
00:26:00.580 --> 00:26:05.471
And it, it convicted me in a way, cause I was like, Okay, should I say something?
00:26:05.651 --> 00:26:07.931
They don't know I have one, but I overheard this.
00:26:07.990 --> 00:26:10.270
And I said, You know what?
00:26:10.330 --> 00:26:12.340
You don't know why this person needs this role.
00:26:12.340 --> 00:26:14.290
And I don't think the person had a PhD.
00:26:14.290 --> 00:26:16.000
I think they were a PhD student.
00:26:16.523 --> 00:26:18.413
I explained to her, I said I have a PhD.
00:26:18.413 --> 00:26:21.233
I didn't put that on my resume when you all were hiring me.
00:26:21.239 --> 00:26:24.253
I was on my way out of the door at this time, so it didn't matter.
00:26:24.580 --> 00:26:32.066
And I explained to her that she may be more than capable to do this role and you're adding bias based on her level of education.
00:26:32.306 --> 00:26:33.236
And she was shocked.
00:26:33.236 --> 00:26:34.435
That ended the conversation.
00:26:34.435 --> 00:26:35.185
It was pleasant.
00:26:35.185 --> 00:26:37.105
It wasn't, you know, it wasn't uncomfortable.
00:26:37.105 --> 00:26:38.486
I just had to be honest with her.
00:26:38.875 --> 00:26:44.432
So, yeah, there are times where people just look at it like, oh, why would this person want this job?
00:26:44.432 --> 00:26:46.502
Or we are gonna have to pay them more.
00:26:46.508 --> 00:26:48.103
Or, it is.
00:26:48.528 --> 00:26:53.703
Are there any other aspects of I'll call it the dumping your degree philosophy?
00:26:54.124 --> 00:27:02.169
Any kind of bigger things we haven't mentioned in the idea of dumping your degree when you look for, for different work that we haven't touched upon yet?
00:27:02.776 --> 00:27:06.316
Really the title is not to be taken literally.
00:27:06.715 --> 00:27:10.362
It's more so to say, Hey, let's put it to the side for a minute.
00:27:10.392 --> 00:27:10.811
Right?
00:27:11.291 --> 00:27:18.109
Cause a lot of times, especially with my students, where they were about to graduate, and I'm teaching undergrads.
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:21.820
And they're like, Oh as soon as I get this degree, jobs are just gonna be lining up.
00:27:22.188 --> 00:27:24.587
And I'm like, No, that's not how it works.
00:27:24.657 --> 00:27:41.538
So you might not want to lead or only focus on the degree, meaning they do themselves a disservice by not looking at their talents, not looking at their skills, not looking at their connections and looking at how all of those things together will create the opportunity.
00:27:41.618 --> 00:27:42.979
Not just the degree.
00:27:43.298 --> 00:27:46.519
So many people have been told, Oh, get the degree.
00:27:46.699 --> 00:27:49.699
I was told that, Get the degree, you'll get the job at the end.
00:27:49.749 --> 00:27:51.848
It feels like everybody has a degree now.
00:27:51.854 --> 00:27:53.229
Like who doesn't have a degree?
00:27:53.439 --> 00:28:03.148
And then the way it's, it's going, many people are even getting graduate degrees in order to, they feel like they need them to better their chances in the job market.
00:28:03.153 --> 00:28:05.439
Or stand out from the competition.
00:28:05.439 --> 00:28:08.930
So really there's a devaluing of many degrees.
00:28:09.499 --> 00:28:15.318
And so what do you do when you and everybody else has that same degree and they're applying for the same job?
00:28:15.348 --> 00:28:20.324
What do you have that is different from them that will add more value to that role and to that company?
00:28:20.615 --> 00:28:22.340
So that's what I mean by dumping your degree.
00:28:22.340 --> 00:28:24.201
You can dump it and say, You know what?
00:28:24.201 --> 00:28:27.351
I'm not going to work in this field ever again.
00:28:27.721 --> 00:28:31.770
I'm gonna transition my career and I'm gonna look at something completely different.
00:28:31.776 --> 00:28:33.875
Something that I might not even have a degree in.
00:28:34.280 --> 00:28:35.405
And that's fine too.
00:28:35.556 --> 00:28:51.355
But either way, whether it's a figurative dumping of your degree or a literal dumping of your degree, I just want you to be able to focus on your skills, your talent, your connections, and other things that you have that will be valuable to whatever, you know, your career journey looks like.
00:28:52.297 --> 00:29:02.840
One thing that you've brought up a few times is you recommend people finding work they enjoy versus just approaching like work is work.
00:29:02.987 --> 00:29:04.843
It's something that occupies me between nine to five.
00:29:05.046 --> 00:29:09.763
But you know, it does seem that there's quite a spectrum of enjoyable work.
00:29:09.894 --> 00:29:13.209
There's, Yeah, I, I, I kind of like it to like, I love it.
00:29:13.239 --> 00:29:14.078
I'm obsessed.
00:29:14.078 --> 00:29:16.013
This is my purpose in life.
00:29:16.809 --> 00:29:22.732
How do we determine, I guess that level of enjoyment that makes sense for us as we look for work.
00:29:22.732 --> 00:29:36.593
You know, especially coming out of grad school where, I mean, we've spent so much time and energy in our field and, for listeners to this podcast, they've decided that that just isn't working out for them anymore.
00:29:36.597 --> 00:29:42.125
So they're very used to putting their heart, soul, and mind into their work.
00:29:42.568 --> 00:29:44.219
What do you do after that?
00:29:44.219 --> 00:29:48.358
Like how do you approach that enjoyment in work?
00:29:49.443 --> 00:29:52.718
There are different degrees of enjoyment.
00:29:53.167 --> 00:30:03.029
For example, I had a, a roommate in college who enjoyed, literally enjoyed, cleaning so much so she started a cleaning business, even though I forgot what her degree was...
00:30:03.099 --> 00:30:04.599
it was something related to music.
00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:13.967
So she had a passion for music, but also started a cleaning business because she said it, it helped her decompress, relieve stress, things like that.
00:30:14.326 --> 00:30:21.124
The way we look at work, when we think of work, we think it has to be something so bright and shiny and amazing.
00:30:21.173 --> 00:30:27.401
But it doesn't have to be at that level to be enjoyable, to be something you even are passionate about.
00:30:27.760 --> 00:30:34.318
So I would definitely just strip away all of the outside noise and reflect on, What is it that you enjoy?
00:30:34.318 --> 00:30:37.439
Even if it's something that you would consider menial things.
00:30:37.929 --> 00:30:52.239
A lot of times people's hobbies or just mundane things that they find pleasure in are ways that they can develop a career that are often overlooked because everybody's gunning for the corner office or something big and bright, you know?
00:30:52.669 --> 00:30:58.999
And there's nothing wrong with either, but I'm just saying that people should be more reflective on looking at what it is that they enjoy.
00:31:00.406 --> 00:31:03.656
How big of a role should work play in life?
00:31:04.076 --> 00:31:06.086
I mean, should it be strictly nine to five?
00:31:06.487 --> 00:31:12.666
Is there something wrong when people love their work and want to spend, I don't know, 60 hours a week at it?
00:31:12.757 --> 00:31:17.079
How do you tend to advise your, your clients or readers in this respect?
00:31:17.269 --> 00:31:18.529
Whatever works for them.
00:31:18.529 --> 00:31:19.519
I come from a family...
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:24.380
like my grandfather, he was working all the way into his eighties.
00:31:24.380 --> 00:31:25.910
And we had to stop him.
00:31:26.029 --> 00:31:26.269
Right.
00:31:26.269 --> 00:31:30.109
He would've still been working if we didn't say, Hey, you need to sit out.
00:31:30.450 --> 00:31:34.643
There are people like that, that just find passion and drive in their work.
00:31:34.643 --> 00:31:35.932
And that's what motivates them.
00:31:35.932 --> 00:31:36.833
They can't sit down.
00:31:37.522 --> 00:31:41.813
And then there are others like myself who are maybe more on the opposite end.
00:31:41.813 --> 00:31:44.333
Like I wanna do as little work as possible.
00:31:44.732 --> 00:31:50.673
I prefer to spend time with having experiences, whether it's through traveling with my family.
00:31:51.405 --> 00:31:53.885
And then also there are people that are probably in the middle.
00:31:53.885 --> 00:31:54.306
It just...
00:31:54.425 --> 00:31:58.746
what works for you, but also what works for those that you were responsible for.
00:31:58.750 --> 00:32:05.556
Because I know that there are some people that are so focused on work that they neglect not only themselves, but their families.
00:32:05.800 --> 00:32:06.851
That's not a good thing, right?
00:32:06.851 --> 00:32:12.371
So if people around you who you care about and love are not happy with how you're working, you might wanna shift some things.
00:32:12.760 --> 00:32:22.121
But if you're at a point in your life where you're the only person that matters, you know, you only have yourself to be responsible for, and you enjoy working 60 hours a week, fine.
00:32:22.121 --> 00:32:24.191
Make sure that you're taking care of yourself though.
00:32:24.671 --> 00:32:29.621
I don't recommend people focusing on work just as, I have to do this to survive.
00:32:30.080 --> 00:32:35.277
I really recommend people look for things that they enjoy, that they find pleasure in.
00:32:35.307 --> 00:32:45.557
Or if they can't find work in that, or if the work doesn't give them that feeling that they find a way to do that work, the least amount of time possible.
00:32:45.557 --> 00:32:51.634
So if you're working, if there's a way for you to work for yourself, only a few hours a week, fine.
00:32:51.634 --> 00:32:53.784
If that is a few hours a day, fine.
00:32:53.784 --> 00:32:56.753
But make sure you have time to enjoy life.
00:32:56.753 --> 00:32:58.804
Not just make work the focus of it.
00:32:59.420 --> 00:33:04.970
So beyond your book, Dump Your Degree, are there any other resources that you would recommend for our listeners?
00:33:05.606 --> 00:33:16.477
Yes, I would recommend if you're in the process of transitioning your career, there are career transition coaches and programs that help people who are looking to transition.
00:33:17.057 --> 00:33:21.489
Cause sometimes you need somebody to guide you along that transition journey.
00:33:21.489 --> 00:33:28.117
I offer services primarily in group settings in that way, but there are also other avenues to approach that as well.
00:33:28.117 --> 00:33:33.925
Just doing a little research online and typing in career transition consulting or career transition coaching.
00:33:34.481 --> 00:33:37.092
Where can people find your book and more about you?
00:33:37.602 --> 00:33:37.902
Yes.
00:33:37.902 --> 00:33:43.747
My book is available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Walmart, many online retailers.
00:33:43.797 --> 00:33:48.987
Or you can go to ZakiyaAkerele.com and my book is available through my website as well.
00:33:49.047 --> 00:33:50.307
And that's where you can find me.
00:33:50.576 --> 00:33:55.096
I'm also on Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram @ZakiyaAkerele.
00:33:55.855 --> 00:33:56.175
All right.
00:33:56.175 --> 00:33:58.358
And I'll be sure to include all that in the show notes.
00:33:58.721 --> 00:34:00.461
Well, Zakiya thank you again for joining us.
00:34:00.461 --> 00:34:01.872
This was a wonderful conversation.
00:34:02.211 --> 00:34:03.021
Thank you for having me.
00:00:22.963 --> 00:00:23.713
Hey everyone.
00:00:23.772 --> 00:00:25.663
Thanks for joining me for another episode.
00:00:25.753 --> 00:00:27.132
I'm your host Jesse Butts.
00:00:27.382 --> 00:00:36.877
Today we have a bonus episode featuring Zakiya Akerele, a PhD in religious education from Fordham and the author of Dump Your Degree.
00:00:37.319 --> 00:00:43.408
Zakiya has been kind enough to join us to chat about her expertise helping advanced degree holders control their careers.
00:00:43.765 --> 00:00:45.155
Zakiya welcome to the show.
00:00:45.155 --> 00:00:46.165
Thanks for joining us.
00:00:46.276 --> 00:00:47.241
Thank you for having me.
00:00:47.677 --> 00:00:48.448
Absolutely.
00:00:48.798 --> 00:00:56.689
So before we talk about your book and the process that you've identified, can you tell us a little bit about your own journey?
00:00:56.749 --> 00:01:01.459
For example, what happened with your career after earning your PhD in religious education?
00:01:01.926 --> 00:01:02.106
Yeah.
00:01:02.106 --> 00:01:05.578
So I had finished my degree in 2010.
00:01:05.578 --> 00:01:10.618
And at that time we were in a recession or maybe trying to come out of one.
00:01:10.623 --> 00:01:14.938
Regardless, I met a lot of challenges in finding employment.
00:01:15.399 --> 00:01:22.858
I wanted to join academia, become a professor and I just was not finding full-time employment.
00:01:23.418 --> 00:01:24.915
I did some adjuncting.
00:01:25.096 --> 00:01:29.801
Not too much in my field but found some adjunct roles.
00:01:30.260 --> 00:01:45.290
But after having gone through these transitions of unemployment and underemployment, I tried to figure out a way that I could do work that I enjoyed by creating my own opportunities and not waiting for someone to hire me.
00:01:45.290 --> 00:02:02.118
So for about three years, I did some consulting work, research, not necessarily directly related to my educational background, but that was able to transfer the skills that I had acquired in higher education were able to transfer into those roles and positions.
00:02:02.539 --> 00:02:08.688
And from that, I realized that there were many things that I enjoyed doing outside of higher education.
00:02:08.998 --> 00:02:13.135
So it allowed me to develop my CV in a, in a different, in a unique way.
00:02:13.703 --> 00:02:18.342
But I subsequently ended up becoming a professor for about five or six years.
00:02:18.342 --> 00:02:21.320
I, I was on a tenure track in religious studies.
00:02:21.600 --> 00:02:26.520
I took a break between those five years and did some world traveling and came back to it.
00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:30.230
And after that transitioned into being a full-time author.
00:02:30.871 --> 00:02:34.741
Just out of curiosity, what was your area of focus in religious studies?
00:02:34.961 --> 00:02:39.070
Well, I primarily focused on African traditional spirituality.
00:02:39.131 --> 00:02:43.508
And taught courses in women in religion, but primarily African and African American.
00:02:44.395 --> 00:02:44.685
Okay.
00:02:45.145 --> 00:02:53.620
So how long have you been, I believe you used the term full-time author, if I'm remembering correctly, how long have you been in that line of work?
00:02:53.814 --> 00:02:55.615
So it started during the pandemic.
00:02:55.615 --> 00:03:00.902
I was still teaching and at the time I was, I was pregnant with my second child.
00:03:00.932 --> 00:03:04.953
And in the middle of the pandemic and I didn't know what to do.
00:03:05.032 --> 00:03:06.772
I was teaching in the state of Florida.
00:03:06.772 --> 00:03:15.306
So I don't know if people follow Florida politics too well, but the way they were situating things were a little different from other states.
00:03:15.336 --> 00:03:20.586
And there was a requirement for me to go back into the classroom in person.
00:03:20.895 --> 00:03:26.860
And I had just given birth maybe less than two months on top of it still being in the heat of the pandemic.
00:03:27.461 --> 00:03:32.950
And I just was not interested in, in doing that, going back into the classroom.
00:03:32.950 --> 00:03:35.471
So I took family leave.
00:03:35.561 --> 00:03:38.561
And after that ended up not going back.
00:03:39.411 --> 00:03:45.816
Before we, we kind of dive into your book, was that a hard transition to move away from teaching?
00:03:45.816 --> 00:03:51.295
Or was it something that at that point you kind of felt like, I'm ready for something different?
00:03:52.110 --> 00:03:54.070
Yes, I was ready for something different.
00:03:54.070 --> 00:03:54.700
Definitely.
00:03:55.009 --> 00:03:56.150
I love teaching.
00:03:56.300 --> 00:04:00.227
And I particularly love teaching in the area that I taught in.
00:04:00.227 --> 00:04:03.062
I'm passionate about world religions in general.
00:04:03.431 --> 00:04:08.406
But also just teaching about culture and how people evolved and developed.
00:04:08.781 --> 00:04:12.050
But I realized that I also like my freedom.
00:04:12.575 --> 00:04:16.266
And while higher education gave me freedom that many people don't get.
00:04:16.266 --> 00:04:16.565
Right?
00:04:16.565 --> 00:04:19.415
So I only taught during the fall and spring.
00:04:19.415 --> 00:04:23.975
So I had my summers off if I wanted to, sometimes I did teach during summers.
00:04:24.375 --> 00:04:31.086
But I still wanted more freedom to be able to do things, to be able to spend with my family when I wanted to.
00:04:31.466 --> 00:04:37.290
And having someone else create a schedule for me wasn't working for my life at that time.
00:04:37.620 --> 00:04:39.944
So it was, it was a little bittersweet.
00:04:39.944 --> 00:04:44.204
I, I loved the classroom, but I also was ready to transition out of it.
00:04:45.201 --> 00:04:48.978
Yeah I mean, a pretty, pretty common tale on, on the podcast.
00:04:49.983 --> 00:04:58.754
So Zakiya, I, I think perhaps the best way to approach your book, Dump Your Degree, is to run through kind of the hypothetical that the show is based on.
00:04:59.463 --> 00:05:09.237
So let's say you're in grad school or maybe you've been out a few years and you don't feel like you want to pursue what you studied.
00:05:09.358 --> 00:05:15.728
You know, whether that would be joining academia or being a practitioner of some sort in your discipline.
00:05:16.201 --> 00:05:18.571
What do you do when you're in that situation?
00:05:18.571 --> 00:05:21.538
Where do you even start in your approach to all this?
00:05:21.915 --> 00:05:22.153
Yes.
00:05:22.158 --> 00:05:27.069
I, I would definitely start with a bit of reflection to see what it is you enjoy doing.
00:05:27.189 --> 00:05:29.259
I'm a proponent of doing what you enjoy.
00:05:29.259 --> 00:05:31.180
I know a lot of people say, Well, work is work.
00:05:31.180 --> 00:05:32.829
It pays the bills, or what have you.
00:05:33.245 --> 00:05:35.464
But I wish more people would enjoy the work.
00:05:35.475 --> 00:05:37.845
And even feel passionate about the work that they do.
00:05:37.845 --> 00:05:43.365
So reflecting on things you enjoy, things that you're talented, naturally talented at.
00:05:43.365 --> 00:05:45.944
And things that you have skills in, right?
00:05:45.944 --> 00:05:55.314
That you might have developed, whether it's through your journey through higher education or skills that you've developed, maybe you were self taught in an area, but something that you know, that you can do professionally.
00:05:55.625 --> 00:06:07.185
And after kind of reflecting on what are the things that I enjoy, what are the things that I'm good at, then doing some research on how those skills, those talents can be used in a career.
00:06:07.615 --> 00:06:13.475
We live in a, a great time in, in history where you can pretty much make money doing any and everything.
00:06:13.475 --> 00:06:13.675
Right?
00:06:13.694 --> 00:06:19.137
If you just do a bit of research, you can find ways to monetize work that you enjoy doing.
00:06:19.334 --> 00:06:28.391
So those are the two things reflection and then research and getting a plan of action together on what are the steps that it would take for you to transition into that field.
00:06:29.228 --> 00:06:38.444
You know, Let's say I've, I've gone through this reflection and I've, I've figured out, These are things I enjoy that I have some skill at and I have some aptitude.
00:06:38.978 --> 00:06:44.168
How roughly does that process work of translating those skills to a job hunt.
00:06:44.168 --> 00:06:47.499
Particularly if you've been in academia.
00:06:47.858 --> 00:06:56.250
You know, the skill at first might be teaching, but kind of once you suss it out, it's, you know, comfortable presenting in a large group.
00:06:56.733 --> 00:07:06.319
Is there kind of a way to, to maybe break down some of these skills into more atomic particles and as we kind of think about what we'd like to do instead?
00:07:06.483 --> 00:07:07.572
Yes, definitely.
00:07:07.622 --> 00:07:11.492
There are many skills that can be used even in freelancing, right?
00:07:11.492 --> 00:07:12.942
So I'm thinking of someone in academia.
00:07:12.942 --> 00:07:26.562
Myself, I transitioned into freelancing doing proofreading, and editing, and things like that because of my experience as a professor reading papers and just having that research and writing experience myself.
00:07:26.773 --> 00:07:28.423
It doesn't have to be so broad.
00:07:28.423 --> 00:07:37.100
It can be broken down into things that you are skilled at that can pretty much bring in an income while you're even thinking about the larger thing that you want to do.
00:07:37.461 --> 00:07:40.940
A lot of times people are just looking at, Oh, I have teaching and that's it.
00:07:41.355 --> 00:07:53.370
But there are so many things that teaching, or like I mentioned, research or writing or communication that can transfer into different avenues that will be able to bring you in an income.
00:07:53.370 --> 00:08:01.302
For example, right after I finished my doctorate, again, I mentioned that it was very challenging for me to find work in religious studies.
00:08:01.302 --> 00:08:02.922
Like people weren't looking for...
00:08:02.922 --> 00:08:04.302
that wasn't in hot demand.
00:08:04.302 --> 00:08:04.661
Right?
00:08:04.935 --> 00:08:08.947
But I did find work in research doing research management.
00:08:09.382 --> 00:08:18.541
And while they didn't specifically put, you know, the degree that I had as a requirement, I was able to lead with those skills.
00:08:18.762 --> 00:08:30.382
I was able to secure an interview and subsequently become hired as a consultant, doing research, even though the research background was completely different because of that, that skill, that was transferable.
00:08:30.382 --> 00:08:39.072
Also the organization that I worked for, they were particularly looking to connect with individuals in this community.
00:08:39.143 --> 00:08:44.513
They were from another state and they were doing research specifically in Florida.
00:08:44.873 --> 00:08:48.863
So not only did my skills matter, but my connections mattered.
00:08:48.923 --> 00:08:58.102
So I was able to leverage the people I knew, my connections to the larger community to be able to kind of show that I was a resource to them.
00:08:58.482 --> 00:09:04.903
So there are other things that you have that you might not be thinking are directly related to work, but they are.
00:09:04.932 --> 00:09:10.692
And if you lead with those things, that's why I wrote the book Dump Your Degree because most people solely look at the degree.
00:09:10.903 --> 00:09:12.972
What they have the educational background in.
00:09:13.273 --> 00:09:18.357
But that's not the end all be all to transitioning, but also to just getting higher, even within your field.
00:09:19.311 --> 00:09:34.441
How do you recommend people discover, I guess, for lack of a better term, those maybe indirect skills that ... like you were talking about, with research or like I mentioned, comfortable presenting in front of large groups.
00:09:35.051 --> 00:09:37.850
How do you recommend people, maybe unpack that a little bit?
00:09:38.125 --> 00:09:42.775
You know, one thing I've done is I've asked friends that were close to me.
00:09:42.806 --> 00:09:48.477
I said, If you could see me doing something aside from what you know me to do, what would it be?
00:09:48.658 --> 00:09:51.087
What are, what are some things that you think that I am good at?
00:09:51.087 --> 00:09:54.687
Because a lot of times people can see things that you can't see within yourself.
00:09:55.148 --> 00:09:57.187
And that's helped guide me as well.
00:09:57.187 --> 00:09:57.817
I'm like, you know what?
00:09:57.817 --> 00:09:59.498
I do enjoy doing that.
00:09:59.498 --> 00:10:00.908
I never thought about that.
00:10:00.908 --> 00:10:08.158
So people who you encounter on a regular basis may be able to highlight some of your talents that you're not aware of.
00:10:08.158 --> 00:10:10.447
Or that you, you take for granted, so to speak.
00:10:10.918 --> 00:10:14.038
Another thing would be, again, going back to the reflection part.
00:10:14.071 --> 00:10:23.648
Some things that we enjoyed doing as children that we kind of got conditioned away from because we were taught maybe they weren't functional or they didn't offer stability.
00:10:23.918 --> 00:10:32.820
Sometimes those very passions that we had in our youth could actually be something that is in line with our career down the road.
00:10:32.820 --> 00:10:36.610
So whatever might just be a hobby, could actually be your profession
00:10:37.409 --> 00:10:43.945
Yeah, I have to believe that I'm not the only podcaster who asked too many questions as a kid, and then decided to start an interview show.
00:10:44.205 --> 00:10:44.825
Oh goodness.
00:10:44.825 --> 00:10:46.897
I might need to get my son ready for a podcast.
00:10:46.897 --> 00:10:47.177
Because that kid asks a million questions a day.
00:10:50.350 --> 00:10:54.214
It's a, it's a great way to, to do it and, and have fun.
00:10:54.244 --> 00:10:56.706
But yeah, sorry for that little tangent.
00:10:57.235 --> 00:11:06.833
So, you know, in the process that we've discussed, we've reflected and figured out the skills and kind of the careers that, that look interesting.
00:11:07.892 --> 00:11:15.144
And we've kind of translated maybe that academic language to professional language, business language.
00:11:15.636 --> 00:11:16.667
What do you do next?
00:11:16.667 --> 00:11:20.924
S hould people just get the resume ready and jump on the job boards?
00:11:20.924 --> 00:11:23.024
Or what do you recommend at this point?
00:11:23.524 --> 00:11:38.416
I definitely don't recommend just jumping on the job boards because unfortunately, when you have AI that's skimming through resumes, you might not be translating what you have to offer very well on a resume.
00:11:38.416 --> 00:11:39.525
So I definitely...
00:11:39.525 --> 00:11:40.846
yeah, of course, get it ready.
00:11:41.025 --> 00:11:41.895
Have people look over it.
00:11:42.695 --> 00:11:47.035
But be open to rethinking how you present your resume.
00:11:47.466 --> 00:11:51.275
But also the main thing would be to reach out to your connections.
00:11:51.365 --> 00:11:51.785
Right?
00:11:51.785 --> 00:12:03.140
So people who are already in your circle of influence, your family, friends, letting them know, putting it out there, Hey, I'm in the process of transitioning from this field to another.
00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:10.561
If you or anyone you know has any insights or connections or anything that could be helpful to me along this journey, I'd appreciate it.
00:12:10.561 --> 00:12:16.571
So first starting there, because it's really about who you know in any industry, any field.
00:12:16.725 --> 00:12:20.385
Who you know is much better than what you know in many cases.
00:12:20.385 --> 00:12:23.806
Of course you have to know something in order to do the job well.
00:12:24.176 --> 00:12:37.446
But then I would also recommend getting on social media, particularly LinkedIn and other job sites because people need to know that you're available and they can know that by you don't have to scream, Hey, I'm looking for this.
00:12:37.475 --> 00:12:40.535
Even though that has been helpful to, to many people.
00:12:40.836 --> 00:12:47.615
But also producing content within that new field of interest to showcase that you are familiar with it.
00:12:48.184 --> 00:12:53.615
That you are open to helping or adding value to others within that particular field.
00:12:53.975 --> 00:12:55.745
And just getting yourself out there.
00:12:55.804 --> 00:13:11.585
And then also checking with maybe alumni groups on LinkedIn to see, like looking at profiles, who's connected in that industry as well that you can develop a relationship with and say, Hey, this is, you know, I see that we went, both, went to X, Y, and Z school.
00:13:11.894 --> 00:13:13.365
I'm really interested in this.
00:13:13.375 --> 00:13:16.164
Do you have any insights for helping me transition to this field?
00:13:16.164 --> 00:13:20.544
But connections are very key in making that transition.
00:13:20.544 --> 00:13:23.424
I think even more so than just hopping on a job board.
00:13:23.990 --> 00:13:38.423
Have you found with your clients or with yourself that connections, you know, maybe some close ones and maybe, you know, somebody from undergrad that you haven't talked in quite a bit, are they generally pretty open to grabbing a cup of coffee or whatever it might be?
00:13:38.618 --> 00:13:39.638
Yes, definitely.
00:13:39.643 --> 00:13:46.238
But of course you don't wanna, come out like salesy or, or needy or just so focused on self.
00:13:46.597 --> 00:13:49.177
You want to, like I said, build relationship.
00:13:49.177 --> 00:13:52.028
You could start by building a rapport first.
00:13:52.408 --> 00:13:56.863
Mentioning some commonalities, complimenting some of their posts.
00:13:56.893 --> 00:14:01.625
Letting them know, Hey, I really enjoyed this post that you wrote about whatever it is.
00:14:01.655 --> 00:14:04.385
But letting them know you're not just there to be a taker.
00:14:04.916 --> 00:14:12.794
But even if you're like in a position where you're like, Look, I see this job opening and they're the right person for, you know, me to get to in order for me to have this opportunity.
00:14:13.134 --> 00:14:22.284
There are still some ways that you can create a conversational approach to developing the relationship instead of just saying, Hey, can you help me get this job?
00:14:22.644 --> 00:14:27.294
But I definitely see most people want to help because they've been there themselves.
00:14:27.850 --> 00:14:36.216
You mentioned too putting content out there about what you're interested in, what you want to be doing.
00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:49.426
How do you put out content where you know you're not an expert, but you want to come across as someone who can do this role or be in this occupation successfully?
00:14:50.315 --> 00:15:02.044
I've heard some advice from others that say, You don't need to be an expert, but that you just need to be more knowledgable in an area than someone who doesn't know anything about it.
00:15:02.075 --> 00:15:14.149
So having a first step, you might have a first degree knowledge in a particular area, and you've developed a level of skillset at that level of knowledge and putting that out there.
00:15:14.149 --> 00:15:17.950
So say it's graphic design or some type of artistic talent, right?
00:15:17.950 --> 00:15:25.090
You don't have to be Picasso, but you might know how to do some basic skills in this and say, Hey, I am available.
00:15:25.090 --> 00:15:28.875
Or look at what I've created or I know how to make flyers.
00:15:28.875 --> 00:15:29.325
Right?
00:15:29.575 --> 00:15:36.965
You don't have to be an expert for many years to have some level of skill set that people may find value in.
00:15:36.965 --> 00:15:40.325
So don't set yourself back saying, Oh, well, I'm not there yet.
00:15:40.565 --> 00:15:42.105
Many people are not there yet.
00:15:42.965 --> 00:16:02.794
But also continuing your, your education journey, not necessarily through higher education in an institution like going back to get another degree, but maybe you get certifications, both free and paid courses that will help you develop your skills so that you continue to grow all while also creating content at every step of your journey.
00:16:03.374 --> 00:16:06.572
I, I assume you're, you're trying to influence two main groups.
00:16:06.745 --> 00:16:13.107
I'll call them peer influencers, you know, people who will say, Okay, clearly Zakiya really knows what she's talking about.
00:16:13.107 --> 00:16:18.158
I will recommend her or, you know, try to give her a leg up wherever I can.
00:16:18.692 --> 00:16:28.413
And then the other group I'm thinking about are the actual hiring managers who need to know that this person can do X, Y, Z in the job and they bring this unique thing.
00:16:29.167 --> 00:16:34.403
Is, is there anyone else we should be considering when we're creating this type of content?
00:16:35.013 --> 00:16:44.222
I would say yourself because a lot of times we think of hiring managers, we think of recruiters, we think of those gatekeepers or the people we need to impress to get a job.
00:16:44.663 --> 00:16:51.754
But you also have opportunity to create your own career without going that route as well.
00:16:52.024 --> 00:16:56.043
So, so for example, I mentioned freelancing before or consulting, right?
00:16:56.043 --> 00:17:04.143
So focusing on how to develop skills that even if those individuals aren't open to hiring you or bringing you on.
00:17:04.173 --> 00:17:08.913
Your skill set is still at a level where you can create job opportunities for yourself.
00:17:08.913 --> 00:17:11.702
So yes, definitely develop your skills.
00:17:11.702 --> 00:17:17.853
Get, like I mentioned, certifications, take courses that will help you in your career development.
00:17:18.167 --> 00:17:33.107
But also do that for yourself so that at any time, where those jobs might not be available to you or they might not be available right away, you still have the opportunity to earn an income and, and have a career while you wait.
00:17:33.805 --> 00:17:49.634
And one thing I should probably clarify too, when we're talking about creating content, I know so many think this means, Oh, I need to start a blog or a YouTube or TikTok channel, but it's probably much broader and, and you know, probably much more incremental than that.
00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:50.894
Is, is that fair?
00:17:51.273 --> 00:17:52.114
Yes, definitely.
00:17:52.118 --> 00:17:52.804
I know a lot of times...
00:17:52.804 --> 00:17:58.203
even myself, I, I have these grand ideas and I'm like, I gotta jump and do everything all at once.
00:17:58.203 --> 00:18:00.394
And it's definitely incremental as you mentioned.
00:18:00.625 --> 00:18:10.105
Doing one or two things, learning those skills as much as possible, or even trying a little bit of them all and, and seeing which one feels best to you.
00:18:10.307 --> 00:18:14.532
So a podcast works for you, whereas someone else it might not.
00:18:14.532 --> 00:18:14.923
Right?
00:18:14.972 --> 00:18:17.492
But a blog might be better because they write better.
00:18:17.807 --> 00:18:28.162
There are people like myself who are not big fans of social media but have to get on there and might not want to be on all social media platforms at once.
00:18:28.491 --> 00:18:35.132
So which one connects or aligns more so with your personality and the things that you enjoy and then focusing there.
00:18:35.977 --> 00:18:38.126
Let's say someone's in this journey.
00:18:38.217 --> 00:18:40.377
They've been making connections.
00:18:40.377 --> 00:18:41.667
They've been networking.
00:18:42.115 --> 00:18:46.476
They've been producing content that shows their skills, their aptitude.
00:18:46.864 --> 00:18:55.021
Going into the job board alone, it can be not the best path, but is this something you're doing simultaneously with all these activities?
00:18:55.132 --> 00:19:03.391
I guess I'm, I'm asking, ineloquently, How do all of these activities coalesce into finding and landing that job?
00:19:03.871 --> 00:19:08.040
Of course, many different approaches at once can be helpful.
00:19:08.040 --> 00:19:08.310
Right.
00:19:08.310 --> 00:19:10.050
Because you never know which one will land.
00:19:10.050 --> 00:19:11.890
So yes, apply for jobs.
00:19:11.950 --> 00:19:13.450
It depends on the field as well.
00:19:13.450 --> 00:19:13.750
Right.
00:19:13.750 --> 00:19:18.460
Because I know certain jobs really it is about who you know, who can open doors for you.
00:19:18.460 --> 00:19:25.387
Whereas others you know, you might have more luck by just going out on a job board or posting your resume on LinkedIn.
00:19:25.387 --> 00:19:27.218
And actually that is a good way.
00:19:27.407 --> 00:19:30.678
At least letting recruiters know that you're open.
00:19:30.682 --> 00:19:30.948
Right.
00:19:30.948 --> 00:19:36.407
I think there's a, a button that you can press where only the recruiters can see that you're open for work.
00:19:36.407 --> 00:19:46.688
So putting yourself out there, applying for jobs, connecting with connections and seeing what's available or letting people know that you are available to add value in whatever area this is.
00:19:46.953 --> 00:19:47.973
Reaching out to alum.
00:19:48.003 --> 00:19:50.013
All of those things can work.
00:19:50.013 --> 00:19:56.048
And you have to just try them out to see which works best, particularly for your industry and your career journey.
00:19:56.199 --> 00:19:58.148
So, that's the approach that I would take.
00:19:58.153 --> 00:20:12.829
Of course, I would suggest doing the relationship building first and simultaneously throughout the whole journey because typically making those connections helps individuals land roles, more so and more often than just going at it blind.
00:20:13.561 --> 00:20:18.632
Pretty early in the show, you mentioned creating your own opportunities.
00:20:19.070 --> 00:20:26.717
And you mentioned that, you know, this is an age where with a little bit of research, you can kind of make money doing almost anything.
00:20:27.131 --> 00:20:30.520
What exactly does that mean, Creating your own opportunities and making money?
00:20:30.520 --> 00:20:35.384
I mean, does this mean you have to be an entrepreneur or a freelancer?
00:20:35.384 --> 00:20:46.528
Are there ways to kind of take this approach maybe, and maybe we could define that a little bit, and still find full-time employment if you're more interested in working for a company than working solo?
00:20:47.169 --> 00:20:47.388
Yes.
00:20:47.394 --> 00:21:01.497
I definitely think, people should, even if you are working for a company, you should always have something in place where at any time, if you're let go, companies close, what have you, you won't just be stuck high and dry.
00:21:01.497 --> 00:21:03.749
Can't earn a living, can't pay your bills.
00:21:04.199 --> 00:21:10.981
I know I was taught, Get a good job, it's stable, you have benefits and then you retire and move on with life.
00:21:11.491 --> 00:21:15.842
But we recognize that that's not really a reality, right?
00:21:15.842 --> 00:21:17.451
That stability is an illusion.
00:21:17.689 --> 00:21:19.409
At any time, anything could happen.
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:29.355
So if you are working for others, still develop your career in a way where you're doing things on the side that won't stress you and take too much time.
00:21:29.355 --> 00:21:33.974
But that at any time, if you are let go, you still have something to fall back on.
00:21:33.974 --> 00:21:35.595
I know we used to say that about degrees.
00:21:35.595 --> 00:21:42.698
Oh, that getting a degree or getting even, a, a graduate degree, it'll give you the opportunity to have something to fall back on.
00:21:42.698 --> 00:21:47.920
But we are seeing now that not even the degrees alone um, offering that opportunity.
00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:52.950
So, having multiple streams of income or opportunities to create income is key.
00:21:53.319 --> 00:22:02.135
Whether that's through freelancing, whether that's through consulting, whether that's through content creation, because we see content creators are getting paid substantially now.
00:22:02.445 --> 00:22:16.384
Whatever that is, that is in alignment with something that you enjoy, which would be my preference, something that you're passionate about, so that at least when you're doing it, it doesn't feel like, Oh, this is an extra labor that I'm adding on to my full-time job.
00:22:17.424 --> 00:22:25.038
And I'm glad you brought up degrees again, because I, I wanted to circle back to that Dump Your Degree, and kind of how literally to take that.
00:22:25.402 --> 00:22:31.305
For example, I I have a master's in writing and publishing, and I primarily work in marketing.
00:22:31.848 --> 00:22:39.394
And I haven't led with my degree, but when people hear you have a master's in writing, you know, in marketing, there's a ton of writing.
00:22:39.394 --> 00:22:40.894
So people are glad to hear that.
00:22:41.315 --> 00:22:46.882
And I feel like most jobs, in general, you know, they're like, Oh, and Jesse has a strong writing background.
00:22:46.882 --> 00:22:47.905
That's that's valuable.
00:22:48.392 --> 00:22:50.818
One guest in particular, she had a PhD in literature.
00:22:51.463 --> 00:22:59.882
And she said that was a stumbling block for employers because they assumed, Oh my God, this person's gonna analyze everything to death.
00:22:59.882 --> 00:23:04.426
They're going to put in all of this, arcane, esoteric vocabulary.
00:23:04.803 --> 00:23:07.465
And, you know, it was a, a little bit of a roadblock.
00:23:07.471 --> 00:23:14.326
And she kind of deemphasized that, and how do we, or when should we kind of dump the degree?
00:23:14.326 --> 00:23:23.311
Like what points in the job process should we be maybe emphasizing or deemphasizing, our graduate degree specifically.
00:23:24.007 --> 00:23:28.267
When you see that it's not opening opportunities for you in your career.
00:23:28.606 --> 00:23:33.916
I learned early on right after finishing my PhD probably within the first six months or so.
00:23:34.007 --> 00:23:40.781
And I was like, this is not working, so I figured out ways to structure ... back then we were using cover letters more.
00:23:40.781 --> 00:23:43.241
I don't think people read them as much now.
00:23:43.615 --> 00:23:54.867
But I was emphasizing more so my talents and skills and the things that I could bring of value to that role as opposed to the degrees, especially when I was interviewing.
00:23:55.288 --> 00:24:02.218
And to be honest with you, there were times that I actually took a degree or two off of my resume to apply for certain jobs.
00:24:02.798 --> 00:24:10.753
And that was because I knew that people would have a bias in the hiring process because they thought, Okay, this person is overqualified.
00:24:11.203 --> 00:24:22.066
Ironically, some of those jobs were paying the same amount or at the same level as those were, that were requiring my level of education, even though I took the degrees off.
00:24:22.516 --> 00:24:25.036
So you have to really play around with it.
00:24:25.036 --> 00:24:26.596
It's a case by case situation.
00:24:26.596 --> 00:24:38.685
But when you see that people may be thinking you're overqualified or there's not a direct match or they're overlooking the skills that you might have to offer as opposed to, Oh, this person is highly educated.
00:24:39.046 --> 00:24:43.855
And they might, like you said, be bringing in all this stuff that we don't need.
00:24:44.226 --> 00:24:48.905
I would suggest you revisiting how you could deemphasize your degrees.
00:24:49.721 --> 00:24:51.968
Is it just things that they don't need?
00:24:51.968 --> 00:24:59.154
Or do they sometimes have a concern, I don't wanna pay for somebody who, you know, has, multiple degrees, they might think that they need to earn more.
00:24:59.275 --> 00:25:01.434
Is that ever a concern or, or not particularly?
00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:05.519
I have had that happen where I was in a job interview.
00:25:05.569 --> 00:25:09.589
It was related, I wanna say to like writing or I can't remember what it was.
00:25:09.589 --> 00:25:13.250
Many years ago, but it wasn't, definitely wasn't related to my degrees.
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:20.460
And the person was like, Oh, HR says you wanna earn top dollar because you have a PhD.
00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:25.303
You know, they kind of brought their bias with them in the interview process.
00:25:25.762 --> 00:25:29.212
And I actually had one personal experience where I was hired.
00:25:29.303 --> 00:25:31.313
I did not let them know that I had a PhD.
00:25:31.313 --> 00:25:32.962
I did let them know that I had a master's.
00:25:33.268 --> 00:25:37.738
I was hired and I was on the process of transitioning out of that role.
00:25:38.127 --> 00:25:41.577
And so they were looking for people to fill my position in others.
00:25:41.968 --> 00:25:49.617
And I overheard the manager who was in the process of looking through resumes saying, Oh, this person has a PhD.
00:25:49.617 --> 00:25:51.087
What does she want this job for?
00:25:51.093 --> 00:25:58.391
And they were about to, you know, basically throw hers to the side because of her level of education.
00:25:58.391 --> 00:26:00.131
And I don't think I was supposed to hear that.
00:26:00.580 --> 00:26:05.471
And it, it convicted me in a way, cause I was like, Okay, should I say something?
00:26:05.651 --> 00:26:07.931
They don't know I have one, but I overheard this.
00:26:07.990 --> 00:26:10.270
And I said, You know what?
00:26:10.330 --> 00:26:12.340
You don't know why this person needs this role.
00:26:12.340 --> 00:26:14.290
And I don't think the person had a PhD.
00:26:14.290 --> 00:26:16.000
I think they were a PhD student.
00:26:16.523 --> 00:26:18.413
I explained to her, I said I have a PhD.
00:26:18.413 --> 00:26:21.233
I didn't put that on my resume when you all were hiring me.
00:26:21.239 --> 00:26:24.253
I was on my way out of the door at this time, so it didn't matter.
00:26:24.580 --> 00:26:32.066
And I explained to her that she may be more than capable to do this role and you're adding bias based on her level of education.
00:26:32.306 --> 00:26:33.236
And she was shocked.
00:26:33.236 --> 00:26:34.435
That ended the conversation.
00:26:34.435 --> 00:26:35.185
It was pleasant.
00:26:35.185 --> 00:26:37.105
It wasn't, you know, it wasn't uncomfortable.
00:26:37.105 --> 00:26:38.486
I just had to be honest with her.
00:26:38.875 --> 00:26:44.432
So, yeah, there are times where people just look at it like, oh, why would this person want this job?
00:26:44.432 --> 00:26:46.502
Or we are gonna have to pay them more.
00:26:46.508 --> 00:26:48.103
Or, it is.
00:26:48.528 --> 00:26:53.703
Are there any other aspects of I'll call it the dumping your degree philosophy?
00:26:54.124 --> 00:27:02.169
Any kind of bigger things we haven't mentioned in the idea of dumping your degree when you look for, for different work that we haven't touched upon yet?
00:27:02.776 --> 00:27:06.316
Really the title is not to be taken literally.
00:27:06.715 --> 00:27:10.362
It's more so to say, Hey, let's put it to the side for a minute.
00:27:10.392 --> 00:27:10.811
Right?
00:27:11.291 --> 00:27:18.109
Cause a lot of times, especially with my students, where they were about to graduate, and I'm teaching undergrads.
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:21.820
And they're like, Oh as soon as I get this degree, jobs are just gonna be lining up.
00:27:22.188 --> 00:27:24.587
And I'm like, No, that's not how it works.
00:27:24.657 --> 00:27:41.538
So you might not want to lead or only focus on the degree, meaning they do themselves a disservice by not looking at their talents, not looking at their skills, not looking at their connections and looking at how all of those things together will create the opportunity.
00:27:41.618 --> 00:27:42.979
Not just the degree.
00:27:43.298 --> 00:27:46.519
So many people have been told, Oh, get the degree.
00:27:46.699 --> 00:27:49.699
I was told that, Get the degree, you'll get the job at the end.
00:27:49.749 --> 00:27:51.848
It feels like everybody has a degree now.
00:27:51.854 --> 00:27:53.229
Like who doesn't have a degree?
00:27:53.439 --> 00:28:03.148
And then the way it's, it's going, many people are even getting graduate degrees in order to, they feel like they need them to better their chances in the job market.
00:28:03.153 --> 00:28:05.439
Or stand out from the competition.
00:28:05.439 --> 00:28:08.930
So really there's a devaluing of many degrees.
00:28:09.499 --> 00:28:15.318
And so what do you do when you and everybody else has that same degree and they're applying for the same job?
00:28:15.348 --> 00:28:20.324
What do you have that is different from them that will add more value to that role and to that company?
00:28:20.615 --> 00:28:22.340
So that's what I mean by dumping your degree.
00:28:22.340 --> 00:28:24.201
You can dump it and say, You know what?
00:28:24.201 --> 00:28:27.351
I'm not going to work in this field ever again.
00:28:27.721 --> 00:28:31.770
I'm gonna transition my career and I'm gonna look at something completely different.
00:28:31.776 --> 00:28:33.875
Something that I might not even have a degree in.
00:28:34.280 --> 00:28:35.405
And that's fine too.
00:28:35.556 --> 00:28:51.355
But either way, whether it's a figurative dumping of your degree or a literal dumping of your degree, I just want you to be able to focus on your skills, your talent, your connections, and other things that you have that will be valuable to whatever, you know, your career journey looks like.
00:28:52.297 --> 00:29:02.840
One thing that you've brought up a few times is you recommend people finding work they enjoy versus just approaching like work is work.
00:29:02.987 --> 00:29:04.843
It's something that occupies me between nine to five.
00:29:05.046 --> 00:29:09.763
But you know, it does seem that there's quite a spectrum of enjoyable work.
00:29:09.894 --> 00:29:13.209
There's, Yeah, I, I, I kind of like it to like, I love it.
00:29:13.239 --> 00:29:14.078
I'm obsessed.
00:29:14.078 --> 00:29:16.013
This is my purpose in life.
00:29:16.809 --> 00:29:22.732
How do we determine, I guess that level of enjoyment that makes sense for us as we look for work.
00:29:22.732 --> 00:29:36.593
You know, especially coming out of grad school where, I mean, we've spent so much time and energy in our field and, for listeners to this podcast, they've decided that that just isn't working out for them anymore.
00:29:36.597 --> 00:29:42.125
So they're very used to putting their heart, soul, and mind into their work.
00:29:42.568 --> 00:29:44.219
What do you do after that?
00:29:44.219 --> 00:29:48.358
Like how do you approach that enjoyment in work?
00:29:49.443 --> 00:29:52.718
There are different degrees of enjoyment.
00:29:53.167 --> 00:30:03.029
For example, I had a, a roommate in college who enjoyed, literally enjoyed, cleaning so much so she started a cleaning business, even though I forgot what her degree was...
00:30:03.099 --> 00:30:04.599
it was something related to music.
00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:13.967
So she had a passion for music, but also started a cleaning business because she said it, it helped her decompress, relieve stress, things like that.
00:30:14.326 --> 00:30:21.124
The way we look at work, when we think of work, we think it has to be something so bright and shiny and amazing.
00:30:21.173 --> 00:30:27.401
But it doesn't have to be at that level to be enjoyable, to be something you even are passionate about.
00:30:27.760 --> 00:30:34.318
So I would definitely just strip away all of the outside noise and reflect on, What is it that you enjoy?
00:30:34.318 --> 00:30:37.439
Even if it's something that you would consider menial things.
00:30:37.929 --> 00:30:52.239
A lot of times people's hobbies or just mundane things that they find pleasure in are ways that they can develop a career that are often overlooked because everybody's gunning for the corner office or something big and bright, you know?
00:30:52.669 --> 00:30:58.999
And there's nothing wrong with either, but I'm just saying that people should be more reflective on looking at what it is that they enjoy.
00:31:00.406 --> 00:31:03.656
How big of a role should work play in life?
00:31:04.076 --> 00:31:06.086
I mean, should it be strictly nine to five?
00:31:06.487 --> 00:31:12.666
Is there something wrong when people love their work and want to spend, I don't know, 60 hours a week at it?
00:31:12.757 --> 00:31:17.079
How do you tend to advise your, your clients or readers in this respect?
00:31:17.269 --> 00:31:18.529
Whatever works for them.
00:31:18.529 --> 00:31:19.519
I come from a family...
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:24.380
like my grandfather, he was working all the way into his eighties.
00:31:24.380 --> 00:31:25.910
And we had to stop him.
00:31:26.029 --> 00:31:26.269
Right.
00:31:26.269 --> 00:31:30.109
He would've still been working if we didn't say, Hey, you need to sit out.
00:31:30.450 --> 00:31:34.643
There are people like that, that just find passion and drive in their work.
00:31:34.643 --> 00:31:35.932
And that's what motivates them.
00:31:35.932 --> 00:31:36.833
They can't sit down.
00:31:37.522 --> 00:31:41.813
And then there are others like myself who are maybe more on the opposite end.
00:31:41.813 --> 00:31:44.333
Like I wanna do as little work as possible.
00:31:44.732 --> 00:31:50.673
I prefer to spend time with having experiences, whether it's through traveling with my family.
00:31:51.405 --> 00:31:53.885
And then also there are people that are probably in the middle.
00:31:53.885 --> 00:31:54.306
It just...
00:31:54.425 --> 00:31:58.746
what works for you, but also what works for those that you were responsible for.
00:31:58.750 --> 00:32:05.556
Because I know that there are some people that are so focused on work that they neglect not only themselves, but their families.
00:32:05.800 --> 00:32:06.851
That's not a good thing, right?
00:32:06.851 --> 00:32:12.371
So if people around you who you care about and love are not happy with how you're working, you might wanna shift some things.
00:32:12.760 --> 00:32:22.121
But if you're at a point in your life where you're the only person that matters, you know, you only have yourself to be responsible for, and you enjoy working 60 hours a week, fine.
00:32:22.121 --> 00:32:24.191
Make sure that you're taking care of yourself though.
00:32:24.671 --> 00:32:29.621
I don't recommend people focusing on work just as, I have to do this to survive.
00:32:30.080 --> 00:32:35.277
I really recommend people look for things that they enjoy, that they find pleasure in.
00:32:35.307 --> 00:32:45.557
Or if they can't find work in that, or if the work doesn't give them that feeling that they find a way to do that work, the least amount of time possible.
00:32:45.557 --> 00:32:51.634
So if you're working, if there's a way for you to work for yourself, only a few hours a week, fine.
00:32:51.634 --> 00:32:53.784
If that is a few hours a day, fine.
00:32:53.784 --> 00:32:56.753
But make sure you have time to enjoy life.
00:32:56.753 --> 00:32:58.804
Not just make work the focus of it.
00:32:59.420 --> 00:33:04.970
So beyond your book, Dump Your Degree, are there any other resources that you would recommend for our listeners?
00:33:05.606 --> 00:33:16.477
Yes, I would recommend if you're in the process of transitioning your career, there are career transition coaches and programs that help people who are looking to transition.
00:33:17.057 --> 00:33:21.489
Cause sometimes you need somebody to guide you along that transition journey.
00:33:21.489 --> 00:33:28.117
I offer services primarily in group settings in that way, but there are also other avenues to approach that as well.
00:33:28.117 --> 00:33:33.925
Just doing a little research online and typing in career transition consulting or career transition coaching.
00:33:34.481 --> 00:33:37.092
Where can people find your book and more about you?
00:33:37.602 --> 00:33:37.902
Yes.
00:33:37.902 --> 00:33:43.747
My book is available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Walmart, many online retailers.
00:33:43.797 --> 00:33:48.987
Or you can go to ZakiyaAkerele.com and my book is available through my website as well.
00:33:49.047 --> 00:33:50.307
And that's where you can find me.
00:33:50.576 --> 00:33:55.096
I'm also on Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram @ZakiyaAkerele.
00:33:55.855 --> 00:33:56.175
All right.
00:33:56.175 --> 00:33:58.358
And I'll be sure to include all that in the show notes.
00:33:58.721 --> 00:34:00.461
Well, Zakiya thank you again for joining us.
00:34:00.461 --> 00:34:01.872
This was a wonderful conversation.
00:34:02.211 --> 00:34:03.021
Thank you for having me.
