Making & Breaking Points with Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti

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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the weekly show podcast. My
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name is Jon Stewart. The final episode of the summer.
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We will be gone for the rest of August and
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I think coming back in early September. So been a
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delightful year. Obviously, tonight, I think, is the Wisconsin primary.
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We don't know what's going to happen. We'll probably discuss
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it during the episode, even though we have no idea
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what it's going to be. And then, you know, we'll
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talk about the other things. It's the dog days of summer.
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There's not a whole lot going on right now. It's
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a little bit quiet. Senate is on recess. The House
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on recess. I am going to go away. I've got
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a lovely, like a snorkel vacation planned in this beautiful
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crystal clear. It's, I probably am not pronouncing this right. Hormuz.
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Straight of Hormuz. That's never going to fucking end. But
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we got a great show for today. I wanted to
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bring on a couple of folks that I feel like
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have been doing the kind of, I'm on the left,
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I'm on the right discussion. I feel like they do
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it in a way that engenders good faith. And so
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I wanted to highlight them on today's program. So let
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me get to them right now. We'll discuss all things left, right, populist,
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and otherwise. Please welcome to the program, the hosts of
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Breaking Points. Ladies and gentlemen, here we are, the final
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weekly show podcast before summer break. And we have the
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co-hosts of Breaking Points, Crystal Ball and Sagar and Jetty
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are joining us today to discuss all that is happening
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in the world. First of all, welcome, Crystal. Welcome, Sagar.
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Thanks for having us.
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Thank you so much for having us, John.
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I want to start by saying I don't feel comfortable
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seeing you two in separate spaces.
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Okay. We had a debate about that actually, but it
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just was a little bit technically easier this way. So
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I'm sorry that we made you uncomfortable.
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And same for you to see you at home in
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a t-shirt. It's, it's throwing me off from my childhood.
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Oh dear God. If only you knew sucker, how painful
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it was for me to put on the suit for my,
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for my one 20 minutes a day and all that.
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That's actually why I left the show in 2015. I
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just decided, Hey man, couldn't take that anymore. I'm done
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with the button down. This is over. Uh, but we're
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delighted that you're both here. And I want to ask
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you because you're both, you're such an interesting dynamic. As
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you guys have worked together, do you find that your
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political opinions are starting to converge? Because I think the
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point of it is you sort of had a guy
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a little bit on the right, you know, Sagar, you'd
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worked at Daily Caller, you'd done some things, Crystal, more
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on the left, but as I listen to you guys,
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I find there is a great deal, not just of respect,
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but convergence. And I can't think of another show where
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sort of the idea is to get those contrasting viewpoints
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that has had that. Is that how you're experiencing it?
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I would say it depends very much on the moment
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of the news cycle. So if you had been watching
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us regularly leading up to Trump's victory or after Trump's victory,
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when we were talking about immigration and mass deportation and CCOT,
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or even today we had a big debate about like
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woke 1.0, you might get a different impression. But the
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concept of the show, you know, from the beginning, even
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predating the current iteration of Breaking Points was, okay, if
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we got... The best faith interpretation of the populist right
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in conversation with the populist left, what would that look like?
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And my theory is that there would be different overlap
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than you might find on sort of the traditional like
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crossfire to name a throwback.
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Oh, I just got it. Something just.
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The typical crossfire sort of cable news dynamic. And so
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I think that's what you're picking up on. And certainly
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on the Iran war, on changing the relationship with Israel,
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on economic issues, there is a lot of overlap there.
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I think the thing you said, Crystal, that resonates the
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most with me is best faith, good faith. I think,
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and Sagar, maybe that's what I'm thinking of. It might
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not be a convergence of opinion. It's that it's a
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good faith discussion. Yeah.
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I mean, one of the things that we both really
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built our show around is like a rejection of cable
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news and just not only the format, but the very
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way in which they want to increase division. And we
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have plenty of division, which we showcase very openly and honestly,
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as you just pointed out, Crystal, about our woke one.
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point no debate. But in it, there was a good faith.
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I mean, Crystal heard me out and I heard her
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out and we gave our counterpoints and there was no
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like yelling or screaming at each other. I also whenever
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you're talking about convergence, I think that one of the
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things that really comes with respect is understanding. And so
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we've been doing this, you know, not just this show,
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but our previous iteration of the show for almost like
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seven or eight years now.
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What was that one, the rising? What was the first one?
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It was rising.
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That's it, rising, yeah.
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And one of the things that comes with that is
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you come to understand very deeply where other people are
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coming from. And it's really useful because it helps not
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only in your interactions politically, but like even in your
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everyday life. Like when you hear somebody say something, you
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can understand where previously it would have been like, what
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an idiot. You're like, okay, I see how you got
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to that conclusion because of the information you took in
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or your worldview is just fundamentally really different. my worldview
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and there's a level of acceptance with that one of
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the best compliments that we both get you know if
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we're in public or something is like you really help
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my relationship with my dad you know you just help
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me understand like where my dad was coming from whenever
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he would rant about x y and z like i
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understood why and then or vice versa you know like
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help my relationship with my kid and like my kids
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really into dsa and like i don't understand you know
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what that is but when i hear crystal talk about
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it it's like okay like i i kind of start
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to make sense to me and so In that way,
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it's really edifying and part of the reason why I
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love doing the show.
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As you've come together, and now it's been, as you said,
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seven years, does it help you also identify the bad
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faith actors in our political and media hellscape? Has there
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been a way for you to discern, oh, these people
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are performative, these people are bad faith, and do you
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Do you avoid that now, avoid those folks, or do
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you expose? Both.
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It's a mix.
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Yeah.
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I mean, definitely. That is certainly the case. And look,
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I have become less tolerant of a lot of pundits
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on the right. There are very few who are actually
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on the right that I would work with at this
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point because I just think there's so much lies and
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propaganda there that to deal with that on a daily
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basis would not be productive. If you're doing a debate...
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and you're having an engagement, you're trying to expose, that's
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one thing. But to work together with someone every day,
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as you know, is an entirely different relationship. So for example,
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in the wake of your John Fetterman interview, I don't
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think that is someone I could work with every day.
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I'm not sure John Fetterman is working with John Fetterman
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every day.
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Just bad faith arguments, a lack of an ability to
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really even grapple with the questions that you're asking, et cetera.
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But what has made it work with Sagar is We've
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had some very heated debates, very hot and over issues
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that we both care a lot about and I think
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are very consequential. What makes it work over the long
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term is that we're both capable of saying, you know what,
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I got it wrong there. You were right.
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You had a point.
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And I think over the long term, that's part of
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what has built the trust that enables it.
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I totally agree. And like, you know, vice versa, I think,
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you know, especially at the height of a lot of
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Pretty crazy moments, 2020 and others. There are not a
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lot of people I think who I could have stomached.
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But yeah, I mean, as Crystal said, it can get
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hot and that's fine. I actually think it's healthy. It's normal.
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It's reflective of literally the nature of the country. We're
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literally living through one of the most tumultuous times, I think,
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in modern American history. It's probably akin to the 1960s.
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in a lot of different ways. Or actually, maybe the
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70s is a better comparison.
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Here's what's sad. I think I'm the only one who's
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lived through both of those. So if you have any questions.
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That's true. I've only read about it, John.
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I am happy. I'm happy to tell you about it. Right.
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But I mean, John, since you were there, you know
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that that was a moment of very actually limited public debate.
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And in my opinion, one of the reasons why things
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went really wrong was because of the convergence of the
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mass media era. Like for me, this is honestly surreal
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to be able to talk to you because you were
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so instrumental for me as a kid who is growing
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up in Bush country, hearing these lies about the Iraq war.
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There is only one place that I could go to,
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to expose like this level of hysteria and nonsense, which
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I just hear propagated All day long on all three
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cable networks. And that was at a time of total
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ubiquity in mass media, part of the reason that we
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got into the war that we did. And it went
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as long as we did. I think that the Iran
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war is, look, it's a disaster, but it is a
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hopeful story in that the poll numbers went south immediately.
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A huge amount of the American public is getting their
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information back. from sources or, you know, different from sources
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like us, many others who are out there who are
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able to expose the absolute holes in all of the
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propaganda that the Pentagon or the White House is able
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to put out. And so, look, it's a disaster that
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we're in this, but it's actually a hopeful story that
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the public turned on it almost immediately. And so that
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we didn't have that edifice to prop it up that
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we did at that time.
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Well, let me ask you a question, because it brings
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up sort of the incentives of those systems that created that,
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because I think you're You make a nice point about
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the 60s and 70s being tumultuous in that same way.
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I think the Iran war has gone south in some ways.
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some ways because this administration doesn't respect us enough to
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lie to us. They kind of don't give a shit
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what we think. And in the 60s and 70s, the
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lies were generally, you know, media has found a way,
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the incentives of it. to uh get weaponized bad faith
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actors weaponize it right uh the ubiquity of cable news
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was at first and tv in general in the 60s
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and 70s politicians weren't quite sure what to do with
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tv and you remember the debate between kennedy and nixon
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uh and kennedy went out there and he understood that
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television is a visual medium and nixon was like i
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don't need makeup i look great And he got his
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ass kicked on the TV side. But if you listen
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to it on the radio, people thought Nixon won. Do
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you think it's, in some respects, the media has just,
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politics has figured out how to weaponize media. Is that
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fair to say? Like you just talked about all these
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bad faith actors, right? They exist as part of a
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political ecosystem. As a way of, you know, Roger Ailes
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very famously said, I want to create something so that
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what happened to Nixon could never happen to another Republican president.
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You know, sometimes we separate media and politics. But isn't
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it true that in a lot of ways, there's a symbiosis?
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A lot of it's been co-opted by politics. And I'm
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curious what you think of that. And we can talk
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a little bit about breaking down those ecosystems.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I think it's a double-edged sword. On the
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one hand, absolutely. And the amount of propaganda, the amount
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of lies, you know, you go on Twitter now, X,
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and there's all these accounts that are just AI slop
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accounts feeding all kinds of nonsense. It makes it very
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difficult actually to sort out what's happening in the war,
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not to mention there's a total censorship lockdown on the U.S.
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as part of what is happening in the region. On
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the flip side of it, though, there's also a hopeful
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story there because in its best incarnation, you know, they
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haven't been able to cover up the horrors and genocide.
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People watch that in 4K themselves and they took their
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own moral opinion of what was happening there and it
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went directly against what the bipartisan elite consensus had been
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for years and years. I think you're right that it's
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insulting that they didn't even bother to lie to us
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this time before the war. I think it also reflects
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the fact that Donald Trump doesn't feel that he needs
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to go through the mechanisms of democracy. We just have
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to swallow whatever insanity he's going to do But I
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also think the fact that you have so many dissenting
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voices in new media that were critical from the beginning
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and able to expose the very thin level of propaganda
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that had been fed to us has also been a
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positive point. Now, I get concerned because there are also–
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Legacy media has its advantages. There was a real tradition
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and a firewall between opinion and the journalist part and
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the advertising, and those walls fall down in new media.
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But overall, I think when you look at those two
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stories in particular, you can see that it has helped
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to create a better atmosphere for small-D democratic understanding of
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what these wars and what this genocide actually are.
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I think that's a really important point. It's a double-edged sword,
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as Crystal said. I compare it to the invention of
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the printing press. I mean, that's how the internet— seriously, that's
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what the internet— But of course, nobody would say, well, yeah,
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the invention of the printing press was bad. It was
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just– it unleashed a new medium of debate. Much of
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it was propaganda, actually pornography, one of the original inventions
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of the printing press of mass distribution just like the internet.
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But what it demonstrated I think on a long enough
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timeline was a more– informed public. And that's the thing.
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We're working things out, as Crystal said. And this is
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where I think all of us can be upfront and honest.
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We are in a difficult position because we are people
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who do the news, but Crystal and I are also
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business owners. We co-own our company, but we set rules
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at the very beginning. We do not read ads, period,
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because we believe that if we did so, it could
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potentially compromise things in the future. Now, we know that
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we have sacrificed a literally like multiple zeros of income. However,
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what we've decided instead was to build a more anti-fragile business.
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For example, like we have a premium subscription program. We
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have YouTube revenue. You know, we have like dynamic ads,
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which are not ads that we read, which we have
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no negotiation with. or interesting, but it took a level
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of intentionality. However, though, there's no reason that we had
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to do that. If we wanted to read Manscaped as- And.
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Most people are not doing that.
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Exactly.
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And are not going to do that.
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Yeah.
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And most people are not doing that and are much
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richer than us as a result.
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But we believe in the long run it'll work out.
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You're starting to make me sweat, and it's why I
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look to quince to create a new wardrobe. Hey, folks,
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I know you're trying to figure out ways to skip
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through these little ad reads here. I get that. I know.
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I know what you're doing. I know you're looking into
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that Spotify thing. Yeah, listen, I'm not blind, you bastards.
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And to be honest with you, I'm not crazy about
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reading them in the first place, generally, except for this one,
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Ground News. You know, I'm always going to go to
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bat for the Ground News. Ground News, because it's, I
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hate the news. I hate what it's doing to me emotionally.
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I hate that you don't really know where the information
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is coming from. Sometimes you don't know how it's being
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manipulated and it adds to the creeping fog of sadness
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that grows. But I have to keep up. I have
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to understand what's going on in the world. And that's
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why Ground News, they've got a website. It's an app.
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You can see how different news outlets will frame the
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same story. They've got a blind spot feed so you
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can challenge yourself about your news consumption. To get the
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same unlimited access to the Vantage subscription, go to groundnews.com
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slash Stuart and subscribe to get 40% off. Discount only
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available for a limited time. That's groundnews.com slash Stuart or
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scan the QR code on screen. But Sagar, so this
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is really interesting to me because we're talking about media independence.
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And when you think of independence, I think writ large,
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you think of it as media independence from corporate interest.
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We're not owned by Universal or GE or any of
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these things. But independence is also, are you independent from
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a political motivation? Yes. That's another form of independence. And
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a lot of people, I think, are captured by that.
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But the third avenue of independence, and I wonder about
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this for you, is What are your incentives to the audience?
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You know, when you say we have a subscription model
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and all that, and do the incentives of, look, we
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all know in an attention economy, what sells the most
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is probably outrage, anger, and those things. So how do
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you and your model avoid being captured by the rage
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of the townspeople? You know, how do you avoid pitchforks
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and torches?
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Well, that's why we're really blessed. Honestly, it's a right
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left show. So, you know, at any given time, a
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decent portion of the audience is mad. So that's actually
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built into.
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It works well.
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It works really well.
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We're going to be hated no matter what by some portion.
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We are very often hated by our own pain. We
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might have one of the most ignominious honors of being
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often hated by the people who pay us. But that's
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built in, as I said. So at various different times,
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we've gone through these types of events before. People are
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mad that you said X, Y or Z. But because
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of our political independence and the right left kind of
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dynamic that is baked in to the heart of the program,
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it means that there are always new people who also
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show up. That's one of the things where a lot
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of the and you actually can see this. There's a
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lot of articles about MAGA media and how it's collapsing
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as enthusiasm in MAGA and the project with Donald Trump,
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especially with younger men, starts to go down. People who
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went all in on just Trump alone or on right
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wing supporters. so-called media are seeing a dramatic reduction in
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their overall revenue and views, because that's just not really
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what people want to hear right now. That is just
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not something that could ever happen to us, because Crystal
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would always represent a side of somebody who's critical of MAGA, right?
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I mean, even I am, obviously, as well, but vice versa,
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let's say whenever Joe Biden was president. And so we're
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very lucky, honestly, in the way that we designed everything.
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But what you're laying out is a very real problem.
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And it explains grifterism, which is basically people who have
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to continue it going, manufacture and create new type of
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controversies purely for an economic incentive, which isn't enough of
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a cancer that we have today.
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Yeah.
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I mean, audience capture is very real. You can kind of,
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if you're watching channels closely, you can tell who's just
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catering to their audience and what they think, you know,
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an algorithm wants them to produce. But I also want
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to say with regard to the fury and the pitchforks,
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like I think people have good reason to be furious
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right now. I think both on an economic level, you know,
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we've been thrust into this war that basically no one
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wanted that is devastating for the global economy. It's first
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and foremost devastating for Iranians, and Iranian civilians. We have
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had our taxpayer dollars used to fund a genocide that, again,
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the public has vociferously turned against. And we have a
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system that is rigged by an oligarch class. So I
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think talking about those things, the way that the AI
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oligarchs literally want to take everyone's jobs... Yeah, people should
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get angry about that. Those are things that should infuriate you.
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And so we don't shy away from that. You know,
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I think to be informed right now is to be
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angry and furious about the state of affairs.
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Let me ask you, because it's, you know, it's such
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an interesting thing to point out how many real things
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there are that can shock the conscience of people. And yet,
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I think if I'm being fair about where the real
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energy of the debate is right now, It's whether or
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not Ennis Cantor is going to get drafted into the WNBA.
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Like the real outrage in this country and culture doesn't
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seem to be about those very real points you just articulated, Kristen.
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And to me, Sagar may have a different take on this,
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but to me, it's very obvious what's going on here.
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Trump's approval is in the toilet. His war is a disaster.
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The economic numbers are trashed. People are furious.
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I think it's the greatest economy this country's ever had.
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I forgot about that.
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Yes.
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According to Fox News. Absolutely. And Republicans are facing what
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is likely to be a landslide defeat in the midterms.
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So what are they doing? They're going back to the
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culture war bag of tricks. Here's a shiny object. that
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I can tangle over at Fox News to get our
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own base back in line. But I actually don't think
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that that's what's driving, for example, the electoral results that
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we're seeing in Democratic primaries across the country and likely
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to see in the general election in the fall. There,
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to me, the number one issue is very likely the economy,
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but it's also horror at a foreign policy that is
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both expensive and deeply immoral.
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Yeah, John, I would push back a bit. I agree
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with you.
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What?
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How dare you, sir?
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Well, I just think it's reflective maybe of a cable
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news bias because you're right. I believe the WNBA was
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the second most mentioned topic on Fox News this week.
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And that's probably true of the 65 plus crowd if
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I were to go and ask them. However, the segments
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that perform best on our channel are things about the
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housing crisis, are about flock cameras. data centers, AI displacement
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and job loss, foreign policy. I mean, I never thought
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I would have my dream job of being able to
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speak to guys like Professor John Mearsheimer, who was my
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literal idol, for over like an hour and a half
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and have him describe like great power politics and the
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Iran war and watch millions of people want to engage
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with that type of content. And so I do think like, look,
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are we amusing ourselves to death? Empirically, yes. I mean,
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not just in terms of sports, but with gambling and
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many of the other vices which are exploding in our
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current society. However, what we always also point out on
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the show, that is derivative of real problems like housing,
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which is the one I would say we see the
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most consistent rage in terms of not just our audience,
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but in our demographic. And it is downstream of so
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many of the other problems that we face as a society.
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And so- Can I also- Yeah, go ahead.
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Can I also just say, John, that I think, too,
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the revelation– this will feel like a bit of a
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left turn– but the revelations in the Epstein files of
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the way that this powerful elite actually has this incredible
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class solidarity and the way that they operate– I think
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it's blown some of the lid off of this idea that,
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you know, what we should really be focused on is
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trans people or these culture war debates, because we've been
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able to see the way the powerful actually work in
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the world and the view that they have of the
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rest of us. And so I think that that has
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been a very educational and illuminating experience for people as
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well as they process some of these like new red
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meat culture war debates that are thrown into the mix. Yeah.
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It's just hard to imagine, you know, when we talk
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about and the importance of it, all these things that
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you're bringing up are, are truly important. And yet there's
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been no accountability for, for any of it. Correct. And
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it seems like what there is accountability for either legislatively
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or otherwise are culture war issues that like, I'll give
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you an example, you know, the save act being, uh,
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you know, uh, at the forefront of so much of
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the problems that were going on in the Senate right now.
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And the liberals, they don't want, they want illegals who
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are voting in millions of numbers, not to, you know,
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show an ID, you know, just utter nonsense that gets
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thrown out there or the trans debate as being at
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the forefront of what's in everybody's minds about the debt,
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like nuance is utterly removed through the process of our
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media and our politics. Yet the things that you talk
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about that are facing Americans or are making them question
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the legitimacy of our institutions are never addressed, seemingly with
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no accountability. Yeah.
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I mean, that's kind of the core of our show.
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Go ahead.
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Can I give you another example of that, John, which
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is very much top of news cycle right now? So
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there's this whole controversy about Hassan Piker and whether or
481
00:25:17.619 --> 00:25:21.200
not candidates should associate with him. And Abdullah Syed famously
482
00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:23.740
had a rally with him. So he's being targeted right
483
00:25:23.779 --> 00:25:25.990
now is like, how dare you associate with this guy
484
00:25:26.029 --> 00:25:28.950
who said all these terrible things? The clip that they
485
00:25:29.089 --> 00:25:31.930
usually point to is where he says that we, quote unquote,
486
00:25:31.990 --> 00:25:35.000
deserve 9-11. He's talking about the concept of blowback and
487
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:39.079
for which he has since apologized. Meanwhile, Abdul El-Sayed is
488
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:43.579
running against a guy who literally was in Congress after 9-11,
489
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:49.319
who authorized the Iraq war, who supported mass surveillance. Who
490
00:25:49.339 --> 00:25:54.319
defended torture. But that guy is fine. But associating with
491
00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:57.910
someone who said something that was edgy one time, that's
492
00:25:58.029 --> 00:26:01.109
what's out of bounds. That's what should be off limits.
493
00:26:01.589 --> 00:26:03.829
That's not just me, but I think most people.
494
00:26:04.170 --> 00:26:10.119
J.D. Vance's spiritual advisor, you know, the preacher that J.D.
495
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:13.680
Vance considers one of his sort of spiritual advisors, talks
496
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:18.259
about male dominion. You know, there are all kinds of
497
00:26:18.339 --> 00:26:22.140
extremes involved. In terms of association, I remember with Obama,
498
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:23.279
you know. Yeah, go ahead.
499
00:26:23.380 --> 00:26:27.039
Just think about, though, the contrast between Hassan Peker said
500
00:26:27.099 --> 00:26:30.700
a thing in response to 9-11 versus this guy actually
501
00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:35.690
was in power and was involved in the horrific lies
502
00:26:35.730 --> 00:26:37.829
leading up to that war, the authorization of the war,
503
00:26:38.109 --> 00:26:42.470
the torture, the murder of Iraqi civilians. And so when
504
00:26:42.509 --> 00:26:46.170
you talk about accountability, where is the accountability for that?
505
00:26:46.589 --> 00:26:49.289
Where is the moral weight on that? Versus, I mean,
506
00:26:49.329 --> 00:26:51.630
many of these guys that were villains on your show
507
00:26:52.009 --> 00:26:54.319
when you were covering the Iraq war are still around
508
00:26:54.380 --> 00:26:58.339
today to propagandize us and push us in the Iran war.
509
00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:01.000
So I think that lack of accountability you point to
510
00:27:01.460 --> 00:27:04.480
is a big failing in our society. And in my opinion,
511
00:27:04.579 --> 00:27:07.920
it has to be corrected. in the next administration. People
512
00:27:08.180 --> 00:27:10.839
have to go to prison for the crimes that were committed,
513
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:14.240
whether it's rogue ICE agents, whether it's insider trading within
514
00:27:14.299 --> 00:27:18.049
this regime. That has to happen for us to reestablish
515
00:27:18.190 --> 00:27:19.809
anything approaching a healthy society.
516
00:27:19.890 --> 00:27:22.910
And I will say, John, for me, I know I'm
517
00:27:23.130 --> 00:27:26.210
with two liberals here, so I'm trying to pick my
518
00:27:26.349 --> 00:27:30.069
battles carefully. Sorry, a leftist and a liberal, a leftist
519
00:27:30.210 --> 00:27:32.549
and a liberal. And I'm going to have to fact,
520
00:27:32.569 --> 00:27:34.130
I'm going to have to check on that J.D. Vance
521
00:27:34.150 --> 00:27:35.930
spiritual advisor one.
522
00:27:35.950 --> 00:27:37.269
Hegseth spiritual advisor.
523
00:27:37.309 --> 00:27:39.549
I was going to say, I was like, I'm fairly
524
00:27:39.589 --> 00:27:40.599
certain that's not true.
525
00:27:40.670 --> 00:27:43.420
That was Hegseth, but J.D. Vance was Peter Thiel.
526
00:27:44.059 --> 00:27:44.380
Okay.
527
00:27:44.420 --> 00:27:48.920
Like when asked by Ross Dutat, should human beings continue
528
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:49.539
to exist?
529
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:50.500
Long pause.
530
00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:52.720
Paused for like eight seconds to be like, I don't
531
00:27:52.769 --> 00:27:58.450
know about humans. And like has unbelievably, you know, this,
532
00:27:58.490 --> 00:28:00.549
the other people that are in those, my point being,
533
00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:06.140
Guilt by association, which is often thrown in Democrats' faces,
534
00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:10.930
whether it was Obama's spiritual advisor, can be thrown into
535
00:28:10.970 --> 00:28:12.890
the right's faces, but it never seems to be done
536
00:28:12.910 --> 00:28:13.589
in that way. That's fair.
537
00:28:13.609 --> 00:28:15.630
What was it? Pastor Wright. Is that right? Pastor Wright?
538
00:28:16.190 --> 00:28:16.950
Now that I think about it.
539
00:28:16.970 --> 00:28:17.170
Yes.
540
00:28:17.210 --> 00:28:19.170
Oh, with Obama you're talking about?
541
00:28:19.210 --> 00:28:20.089
Yeah. God.
542
00:28:20.210 --> 00:28:20.569
Yeah.
543
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:24.660
Anyway, I think the vein I'm picking up on, and
544
00:28:24.680 --> 00:28:26.740
this is where I'm, I mean, I would say this
545
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:29.559
is like the great disappointment, political disappointment of my life.
546
00:28:30.150 --> 00:28:35.009
as I said, was I was inspired to get involved
547
00:28:35.049 --> 00:28:36.390
in politics because of Iraq.
548
00:28:37.349 --> 00:28:37.670
And the.
549
00:28:40.230 --> 00:28:43.420
Centerpiece of the 2024 campaign, and it's fair for people
550
00:28:43.460 --> 00:28:47.099
to say that you were fooled, was no more foreign wars.
551
00:28:47.140 --> 00:28:49.279
I mean, the vice president, as you said, wrote an
552
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:53.500
op-ed endorsing Trump, Trump's best legacy, no new wars. Stephen
553
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:56.440
Miller famously said, Kamala will send your sons to war.
554
00:28:56.910 --> 00:29:00.420
a significant contingent in the 2024 campaign, was we are
555
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:04.539
not going to war with Iran. And so to live
556
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:10.140
in a reality where Trump dastardly and disgracefully attacks Iran
557
00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:17.980
under the cover of negotiations twice, kills 168 schoolgirls, delivers
558
00:29:18.019 --> 00:29:21.400
the greatest strategic disaster to the United States, potentially either
559
00:29:21.460 --> 00:29:23.579
since Vietnam or eclipsing it, if you talk to one
560
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.809
of our guests, Professor Robert Pape, to live in that
561
00:29:26.849 --> 00:29:29.599
reality with those people who I really did trust. And
562
00:29:29.619 --> 00:29:31.700
I'm saying this on a personal level. I know many
563
00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:33.900
of them. I came up in politics kind of in
564
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.670
the same cohort. It has been the greatest betrayal of
565
00:29:37.750 --> 00:29:41.640
my lifetime. And I think what's really disappointing is how
566
00:29:41.740 --> 00:29:46.480
much of it is clearly BS in that I believed
567
00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:50.220
that the voters believed that the wars were bad. And
568
00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:54.430
so to live in a reality where Thomas Massey loses
569
00:29:54.490 --> 00:29:58.930
his House primary purely because of AIPAC and pro-Israel money
570
00:29:59.609 --> 00:30:02.289
and a boomer Republican base, who if you'd pull.
571
00:30:02.109 --> 00:30:05.190
Them under- Well, and that Trump, I mean, let's not
572
00:30:05.470 --> 00:30:05.910
deny- Yeah.
573
00:30:05.970 --> 00:30:09.150
And Trump, right, of course, 100%. Right, those two together,
574
00:30:09.230 --> 00:30:10.650
like those two forces together.
575
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:12.799
Sagar, I want to ask you a question, and I
576
00:30:12.819 --> 00:30:15.779
mean this, and this is for Crystal too. The dynamic
577
00:30:15.819 --> 00:30:22.140
that you're describing is a politics that distorts reality, that
578
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:29.509
creates an impression, and then makes policy choices to- To
579
00:30:29.569 --> 00:30:34.089
ameliorate the damage of this false reality. And you're saying
580
00:30:34.130 --> 00:30:39.549
that your dividing line for that was Iraq and now Iran.
581
00:30:40.450 --> 00:30:43.309
I think maybe the disconnect here for whatever you would
582
00:30:43.349 --> 00:30:45.470
call liberals or the left or any of those things
583
00:30:46.230 --> 00:30:50.930
is that the entirety of Trump's operation has been that.
584
00:30:51.990 --> 00:30:53.309
Is a con is what you're saying.
585
00:30:54.009 --> 00:30:57.150
That's right. Has been the same dynamic you're describing that
586
00:30:57.190 --> 00:31:00.329
has disappointed you in Iraq and Iran. I would say
587
00:31:00.369 --> 00:31:04.269
has disappointed me when you say the Haitian community is
588
00:31:04.390 --> 00:31:09.369
eating cats and dogs. Well, that's the same immigration-wise as
589
00:31:09.849 --> 00:31:14.150
Saddam Hussein is using these aluminum tubes to enrich uranium,
590
00:31:14.230 --> 00:31:16.140
and that's why we have to go in there. In
591
00:31:16.180 --> 00:31:20.019
other words, the reason that has been given for so
592
00:31:20.099 --> 00:31:23.559
many of these policy decisions that I would disagree with
593
00:31:24.150 --> 00:31:26.130
is also a distortion of reality.
594
00:31:26.210 --> 00:31:27.470
I think that's entirely fair, John.
595
00:31:27.670 --> 00:31:30.920
So I find it interesting that somehow Iran, it's like
596
00:31:30.940 --> 00:31:34.460
the whole Tucker Carlson of it. I've had enough. Really?
597
00:31:35.220 --> 00:31:37.519
Because it looks to me like it's the same shit
598
00:31:37.579 --> 00:31:39.329
that's been happening from day one.
599
00:31:39.569 --> 00:31:43.109
I think that's entirely fair, again, to take a step back.
600
00:31:43.150 --> 00:31:46.849
And I can only, from my perspective, like the Haitian thing. Yeah,
601
00:31:46.990 --> 00:31:49.230
it was a lie. The truth is a lot of
602
00:31:49.309 --> 00:31:52.890
us sat and swallowed it because we wanted less immigration.
603
00:31:52.950 --> 00:31:55.609
And we're like, OK, well, I mean, this highlights a
604
00:31:55.690 --> 00:31:58.099
topic and an issue which we can fight on. We
605
00:31:58.119 --> 00:32:00.420
can put the left on the back foot because they
606
00:32:00.460 --> 00:32:03.559
want mass amnesty and we don't. And that was a
607
00:32:03.579 --> 00:32:06.980
tactical political decision that people in politics make. all the time.
608
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:09.480
But I'm not even sure they want mass amnesty. I
609
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:11.460
even think that's a red herring. Fair. I don't know
610
00:32:11.500 --> 00:32:14.089
that they do want mass amnesty, but we don't have
611
00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:17.990
a politics in this country that's functional enough or literate
612
00:32:18.049 --> 00:32:21.920
enough to have an actual conversation about what immigration in
613
00:32:21.980 --> 00:32:23.039
this country should look like.
614
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:25.619
I think that, again, I totally take your point. And
615
00:32:25.660 --> 00:32:27.369
this is where this is the most common.
616
00:32:27.549 --> 00:32:29.049
Look at me. Look at me.
617
00:32:29.069 --> 00:32:33.349
Come on. My parents are loving this. My parents are
618
00:32:33.369 --> 00:32:36.049
loving this. Me being put in my place. But I
619
00:32:36.109 --> 00:32:38.690
do think like with the Iran thing, and again, I
620
00:32:38.710 --> 00:32:41.640
can explain it from my perspective, which was these were
621
00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:45.180
people whose entire careers literally were kind of built on
622
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:49.079
opposition to the neoconservative agenda. And did we know Trump
623
00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:52.859
is a liar. A con often says various different things.
624
00:32:53.059 --> 00:32:53.579
Absolutely.
625
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:56.119
Many of us knew that or would say it in private.
626
00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:58.049
What we also knew is that in his first term,
627
00:32:58.069 --> 00:33:00.230
he was incredibly deferential to a lot of his staff.
628
00:33:00.589 --> 00:33:02.509
A lot of the people we were hiring, he was hiring.
629
00:33:02.650 --> 00:33:04.509
I knew for a fact, you know, at the very
630
00:33:04.549 --> 00:33:06.890
least had a genuine belief we shouldn't go. to war
631
00:33:06.930 --> 00:33:11.039
with Iran. But what was extremely blackpilling, to use an
632
00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:15.160
online term, was to see those same people have to
633
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:19.299
defend the war and in some cases use Iraq rhetoric.
634
00:33:19.339 --> 00:33:22.279
I mean, I remember the vice president, who I'd seen
635
00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:26.200
give lectures against the war with Iran or against neoconservatism.
636
00:33:26.660 --> 00:33:28.089
He was in the Oval. It was in the middle
637
00:33:28.109 --> 00:33:29.609
of the Iran war. And he's like, it's like a
638
00:33:29.670 --> 00:33:32.230
suicide bomber. We're not going to wait till the suicide
639
00:33:32.269 --> 00:33:34.509
bomb goes off to disarm it.
640
00:33:34.509 --> 00:33:36.349
And I was like, oh my We don't want the
641
00:33:36.390 --> 00:33:37.960
smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.
642
00:33:37.980 --> 00:33:43.069
It's Condoleezza Rice all over again. I actually couldn't believe it.
643
00:33:43.150 --> 00:33:46.220
And then- You know, Mark Thiessen is back on my
644
00:33:46.259 --> 00:33:49.400
television screen and Ari Fleischer is back on my television
645
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:53.190
screen and the same liars like who are justifying this.
646
00:33:53.450 --> 00:33:56.930
And to watch that happen, like I would say, fine,
647
00:33:57.069 --> 00:33:59.609
I was fooled. I didn't think it would. I thought
648
00:33:59.809 --> 00:34:02.910
that the lesson was learned. And there's a major mea
649
00:34:02.950 --> 00:34:06.269
culpa that has had and has to be had by
650
00:34:06.289 --> 00:34:08.750
people who thought that it would be different and said so.
651
00:34:09.639 --> 00:34:11.260
So that's kind of where I am currently.
652
00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:14.119
Crystal, what do you think of that? Because it's hard
653
00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:16.449
for me to hear a mea culpa about an Iran
654
00:34:16.469 --> 00:34:20.349
war when the entire regime is that. There's an inevitability
655
00:34:20.769 --> 00:34:24.050
to the reality distortion field and the actions that they
656
00:34:24.090 --> 00:34:26.650
take based on a reality that they are creating.
657
00:34:27.369 --> 00:34:27.570
Yeah.
658
00:34:27.980 --> 00:34:30.139
Well, this is something Sagar and I have had it
659
00:34:30.579 --> 00:34:32.500
over on our show quite a lot and have sorted
660
00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:35.929
through in many conversations. And I've certainly had my I
661
00:34:35.949 --> 00:34:38.320
told you so's. And in fairness to Sagar.
662
00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:40.050
It's not even an I told you. I don't mean
663
00:34:40.090 --> 00:34:41.789
it that way. Honestly, it's not that.
664
00:34:41.989 --> 00:34:43.889
No, I get what you're saying, though. And I think
665
00:34:44.010 --> 00:34:47.730
one of the biggest differences in my view going into
666
00:34:47.769 --> 00:34:50.570
Trump 2.0 and Sagar's view, apart from the fact that
667
00:34:50.610 --> 00:34:53.050
we have different ideologies and so we have different things
668
00:34:53.090 --> 00:34:55.809
that we consider to be good or bad, specifically on
669
00:34:55.849 --> 00:35:00.460
immigration in particular. But Sagar's view was that there were
670
00:35:00.519 --> 00:35:03.219
institutional constraints the first time and there will be some
671
00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:04.809
institutional constraints this time.
672
00:35:04.989 --> 00:35:05.289
That's true.
673
00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:16.800
Whether it was the Supreme Court taking control of the
674
00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:18.900
Supreme Court and then the Supreme Court giving Trump a
675
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:21.260
green light to commit whatever crimes in office that he
676
00:35:21.340 --> 00:35:24.329
wants to, whether it was the mass loyalty test and
677
00:35:24.429 --> 00:35:27.789
fealty that he demanded and demanded that people back up
678
00:35:27.829 --> 00:35:32.139
his 2020 election stolen lies. I looked at that and said, no,
679
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:34.739
this is going to be gloves off. It is going
680
00:35:34.780 --> 00:35:38.340
to be a most maximalist version of what he would
681
00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:41.340
want to do, of what his id is. And it's
682
00:35:41.380 --> 00:35:44.219
going to be horrifying. Now, even I don't think could
683
00:35:44.260 --> 00:35:49.469
have anticipated all of the Doge and Seacott and murdering
684
00:35:49.590 --> 00:35:53.349
random fishermen in the Caribbean. I could have anticipated and
685
00:35:53.369 --> 00:35:57.150
did anticipate the Iran war. But those were, I think,
686
00:35:57.230 --> 00:35:59.929
two of the very different frames that we had coming
687
00:35:59.989 --> 00:36:02.429
into this. And, you know, for me, I'm very much
688
00:36:02.530 --> 00:36:07.159
caught between people who now are seeing some of the problems.
689
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:10.989
I want to say, great, come along. But I agree
690
00:36:11.030 --> 00:36:14.650
with you that there has to be some reckoning with, okay,
691
00:36:15.420 --> 00:36:17.550
How did you get it wrong? And again, I think
692
00:36:17.590 --> 00:36:19.469
Sagar has actually done this, but how did you get
693
00:36:19.510 --> 00:36:21.110
it wrong? How did you end up in this place?
694
00:36:21.670 --> 00:36:24.630
And what are we doing going forward? Because if you're
695
00:36:24.670 --> 00:36:27.369
now just all of a sudden pretending like you had
696
00:36:27.389 --> 00:36:30.260
nothing to do with his rise, if you aren't reckoning
697
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:34.800
with the other lies and horrors that unfolded during Trump 1.0
698
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:37.239
and in the offseason and in the buildup to Iran,
699
00:36:37.659 --> 00:36:40.159
then it's going to be very difficult to have any
700
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:43.639
sort of like coming together or certainly a coalition formed
701
00:36:43.690 --> 00:36:44.250
around that group.
702
00:36:51.670 --> 00:36:57.550
I only eat food now that afterwards I can swim
703
00:36:57.809 --> 00:37:02.650
in the bowl that I ate it in. Can you
704
00:37:02.690 --> 00:37:04.969
imagine if your cereal bowl was literally big enough you
705
00:37:05.010 --> 00:37:08.960
could eat your cereal and then go for a quick dip? Oh, oh,
706
00:37:09.059 --> 00:37:12.059
the time I would save. But I got to tell you,
707
00:37:12.699 --> 00:37:18.150
this magic spoon, man, it's healthy food. Cereal. Imagine that. Cereal,
708
00:37:18.449 --> 00:37:21.929
but healthy. It's Magic Spoon, changing the game. They got
709
00:37:21.929 --> 00:37:25.750
13 grams of protein, for those of you going through
710
00:37:25.769 --> 00:37:28.769
the change of life, as I am, where you get
711
00:37:28.809 --> 00:37:31.550
the old sarcopenias. As they come in, you got to
712
00:37:31.610 --> 00:37:33.750
get that muscle up. You got to get that protein.
713
00:37:34.389 --> 00:37:37.130
Zero sugar, by the way. Five grams of net carbs
714
00:37:37.170 --> 00:37:40.289
per serving. That's low. So you got a lot of protein,
715
00:37:40.530 --> 00:37:44.449
no sugar, and not that many carbs there. Great breakfast.
716
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:49.719
Late night snack. post-workout fuel, wake up in the middle
717
00:37:49.780 --> 00:37:52.940
of the night weeping. It's a great time to console yourself.
718
00:37:53.780 --> 00:37:56.079
They got granola. They got snack bars. Come on, man.
719
00:37:56.579 --> 00:37:59.789
Don't make me beg. Look for Magic Spoon on Amazon
720
00:37:59.829 --> 00:38:02.449
or at your nearest grocery store. And there are plant-based
721
00:38:02.489 --> 00:38:04.869
versions of the cereal too. Even vegans get to feel
722
00:38:04.889 --> 00:38:07.550
like they had a childhood. You'll find vegan options at
723
00:38:07.570 --> 00:38:12.030
Whole Foods or get $ 5 off your next order at magicspoon.com
724
00:38:12.050 --> 00:38:24.119
slash TWS. That's magicspoon.com slash TWS. for $ 5 off. My
725
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:30.579
concern is that this awakening is actually just strategic again.
726
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:31.400
What do you mean by that?
727
00:38:32.380 --> 00:38:37.480
So, all right, let's go to the photograph in the
728
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:42.019
Cracker Barrel, the Thomas Massey, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Tucker Carlson
729
00:38:42.099 --> 00:38:47.000
photo of the diaspora, the Republican diaspora, the Those that
730
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:50.159
have woken and the Iran war, and now they sit
731
00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:53.199
in this room and they're going to come up with the,
732
00:38:53.340 --> 00:38:55.900
it's not, this is the real make America great again.
733
00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:00.219
That was fake. That we, we enabled it. We worked
734
00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:06.989
our asses off to, uh, amplify the lying to, uh,
735
00:39:07.030 --> 00:39:10.219
to help create a reality distortion field that has given
736
00:39:10.300 --> 00:39:14.789
us all of these bad outcomes from, uh, invading Iran
737
00:39:14.809 --> 00:39:18.869
and To a shitty reflecting pool because they're all one
738
00:39:18.889 --> 00:39:21.710
in the same. They're part of the same process, quite frankly.
739
00:39:22.690 --> 00:39:26.250
It's all the same. Great. It's the real great replacement theory.
740
00:39:27.369 --> 00:39:29.969
Let's take all the partisans and replace them with ideal law.
741
00:39:30.590 --> 00:39:33.150
because partisans are part of the game ideologues are a
742
00:39:33.150 --> 00:39:36.840
whole different version and now what they've done is they've
743
00:39:36.929 --> 00:39:42.400
created a little isolated group that can say oh no
744
00:39:43.539 --> 00:39:47.559
we didn't go along with it so whoever kind of
745
00:39:47.699 --> 00:39:52.570
rises up to next lead MAGA that group can bless
746
00:39:53.449 --> 00:39:59.360
and provide cover to, to say, oh no, these guys
747
00:39:59.539 --> 00:40:02.539
have it right now. This is the real MAGA and
748
00:40:02.579 --> 00:40:05.719
we'll provide cover. And I don't think any of it
749
00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:09.510
is an intentional. I think the entirety of the design
750
00:40:09.550 --> 00:40:12.170
of this, and it's not just the last 10 years,
751
00:40:12.230 --> 00:40:13.469
it's the last 50 or 60 years.
752
00:40:13.530 --> 00:40:17.949
So, I mean, obviously a very cynical interpretation. And I
753
00:40:18.010 --> 00:40:18.869
know some of the people.
754
00:40:19.969 --> 00:40:23.889
Please tell me why I shouldn't be cynical about that interpretation.
755
00:40:23.909 --> 00:40:27.090
Please tell me why these bad faith actors are suddenly
756
00:40:27.260 --> 00:40:28.239
acting in good faith.
757
00:40:28.619 --> 00:40:30.920
You have every right to think that. I don't think
758
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:34.519
that there's nearly the incentive that you necessarily are. Like
759
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:36.880
you have people who all lost their elections and are
760
00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:39.909
not exactly like, well, let's say Marjorie Taylor Greene's and
761
00:40:39.969 --> 00:40:43.139
Thomas Massey's case, like actually lost their entire careers. Or
762
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:45.690
Joe Kent, for example, who I know personally.
763
00:40:45.969 --> 00:40:48.090
I don't think they're the progenitors of it. I think
764
00:40:48.170 --> 00:40:51.110
Tucker is. I think he's the one who has to be,
765
00:40:51.469 --> 00:40:54.590
it's very telling. He said, I couldn't believe how little
766
00:40:54.670 --> 00:40:57.840
influence I have. His whole thing is I have to
767
00:40:57.880 --> 00:40:59.940
be in proximity to power.
768
00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:02.780
I see, look, I've known Tucker for a long time.
769
00:41:03.500 --> 00:41:06.599
I just don't really agree with that analysis, having spoken
770
00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:10.010
to him. I would say that he does feel genuinely
771
00:41:10.050 --> 00:41:12.750
burned by Donald Trump, not just with Iran, but actually
772
00:41:13.110 --> 00:41:14.530
With a lot more. I know you're skeptical.
773
00:41:14.590 --> 00:41:17.360
Well, I mean, how are you burned by a guy
774
00:41:17.489 --> 00:41:20.420
that 10 years ago you said, this man is corrupt
775
00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:22.599
to the core and I hate him? Sure. How are
776
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:23.380
you burned by that?
777
00:41:23.460 --> 00:41:25.179
I mean, the vice president said that as well.
778
00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:25.460
Right.
779
00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:26.639
I think, right, people can change.
780
00:41:26.820 --> 00:41:32.280
And is also a cynical, cynical person manipulating himself into
781
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:35.260
the halls of power. You can't convince me otherwise because
782
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:37.019
I've seen no evidence of it.
783
00:41:37.420 --> 00:41:37.579
Sure.
784
00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:39.539
Let's take the vice president out because you're right. He's
785
00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:41.400
literally the vice president. So he had something to gain.
786
00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:45.550
I don't see necessarily the same Tucker gain. I guess
787
00:41:45.570 --> 00:41:48.110
whenever it comes to the third party or let's even
788
00:41:48.130 --> 00:41:51.869
take the Trump criticism, I again think it's genuine. It
789
00:41:52.130 --> 00:41:57.280
has lost him any like genuine friendships. cachet, I think,
790
00:41:57.340 --> 00:41:59.639
in terms of his ability to project power in a
791
00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:02.079
Republican party. I mean, I'm not sure if you've seen
792
00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:05.000
some of the approval polling on Tucker, like after Trump
793
00:42:05.019 --> 00:42:05.690
attacked him.
794
00:42:05.699 --> 00:42:07.059
Did they do approval.
795
00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:10.179
Polling on pundits? Yes, they did, because they were testing
796
00:42:10.219 --> 00:42:13.590
this exact theory of what you're discussing, which is like, hey,
797
00:42:13.650 --> 00:42:17.789
does Tucker independently have juice amongst Republicans without Trump? And
798
00:42:17.829 --> 00:42:21.250
his net negatives went much higher. Obviously, he's independent on
799
00:42:21.309 --> 00:42:23.630
his show, like in terms of his, like, you know,
800
00:42:23.730 --> 00:42:26.590
away from partisanship or his own economic situation.
801
00:42:26.630 --> 00:42:29.449
But Sagar, the same could be said about Republicans who
802
00:42:29.809 --> 00:42:32.949
were apostate about the Iraq war. In other words, people
803
00:42:33.010 --> 00:42:36.400
look to the future. And he's always been a guy
804
00:42:36.679 --> 00:42:40.300
that has looked to what's in it. Look, explain to
805
00:42:40.340 --> 00:42:43.300
me a guy who says, I'm all about liberty and
806
00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:45.659
America and make America great again. And you know who's
807
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:53.400
really a great leader? Putin. There's an incoherence to this
808
00:42:53.559 --> 00:42:56.280
that has to be cynical because it's incoherent.
809
00:42:56.719 --> 00:43:00.320
I understand how you get there. But again, but it's like,
810
00:43:00.530 --> 00:43:02.150
and this is kind of like we were, because I
811
00:43:02.190 --> 00:43:04.829
work with Crystal, like I could see your brain pathways
812
00:43:05.530 --> 00:43:08.050
and how you get there. So I'll explain the way
813
00:43:08.090 --> 00:43:10.130
that we would get there. And the way we would
814
00:43:10.150 --> 00:43:13.489
get there is like Tucker, or not even just Tucker,
815
00:43:13.510 --> 00:43:15.449
a lot of MAGA, and you're talking about Putin, I
816
00:43:15.489 --> 00:43:17.510
assume in terms of like the war in Ukraine or
817
00:43:17.969 --> 00:43:20.650
admiration or whatever for the Russian system. Some of which,
818
00:43:20.710 --> 00:43:22.469
by the way, I do think goes too far. but
819
00:43:22.610 --> 00:43:24.110
a lot of it is about a rejection.
820
00:43:24.130 --> 00:43:24.650
Some of which?
821
00:43:25.030 --> 00:43:27.769
No, I'm saying in terms of people who are like, oh,
822
00:43:27.849 --> 00:43:31.949
Russia is this pinnacle of Western greatness. And it's like, well,
823
00:43:32.030 --> 00:43:34.369
just look at their demographics and their economy. That's not
824
00:43:34.530 --> 00:43:37.900
exactly true. But the point that I think where it
825
00:43:38.019 --> 00:43:41.659
came from, again, just to try to explain this, is
826
00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:47.639
a lot of the original 2016 energy in particular was
827
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:52.670
a Buchananite rejection of globalism. And In particular, I think
828
00:43:52.710 --> 00:43:55.480
what people tried to see in Putin or slash like
829
00:43:55.960 --> 00:43:59.679
admiration or whatever of Putin or the Russian system was
830
00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:03.760
somebody who stands athwart like the neoliberal West, right? So
831
00:44:03.800 --> 00:44:06.119
if I were to look at it through that frame,
832
00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:08.610
it's a little bit different. Like, I don't think it
833
00:44:08.710 --> 00:44:12.530
is necessarily as incongruent as you're thinking, because if you're
834
00:44:12.650 --> 00:44:16.389
a nationalist and your primary view of the world is
835
00:44:16.409 --> 00:44:19.030
that sovereignty itself is one of the things you should
836
00:44:19.090 --> 00:44:22.420
promote and not just promote, but to cherish and to
837
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:25.119
hold dear as much as possible, then you're going to
838
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:29.179
look at different countries which have rejected a Western global
839
00:44:29.239 --> 00:44:33.139
hegemon and say, oh, that's admirable, I guess, in a sense. Again,
840
00:44:33.219 --> 00:44:35.389
I'm not saying I agree with this, but I'm trying
841
00:44:35.409 --> 00:44:37.409
to explain how somebody would get there.
842
00:44:37.429 --> 00:44:41.889
Yeah. Well, Crystal, let me ask you, because this gets
843
00:44:41.949 --> 00:44:44.190
us into a whole other thing, but maybe this is
844
00:44:44.230 --> 00:44:48.409
the distinction between left-wing and right-wing populism. Because I always
845
00:44:48.429 --> 00:44:51.409
think of populism through a much more economic lens, but
846
00:44:51.449 --> 00:44:54.269
there really is a nationalist lens that you have to
847
00:44:54.289 --> 00:44:59.010
look through it as well. And the thing that's interesting
848
00:44:59.070 --> 00:45:03.000
about the right-wing populism is, and again, I view it
849
00:45:03.059 --> 00:45:08.519
as cynical. It's the Bannon theory of power. I'm going
850
00:45:08.539 --> 00:45:11.960
to combine left-wing economic populism because I think that gives
851
00:45:12.019 --> 00:45:14.639
me a large group of people to pull from. And
852
00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:18.750
I'm going to combine it with right wing, we must
853
00:45:18.849 --> 00:45:26.250
protect white Anglo-Saxon culture and Western civilization, which is their,
854
00:45:26.309 --> 00:45:35.780
I guess, sort of euphemism for that homogeneity. I think
855
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:41.739
the second part of that, the white homogeneity is more
856
00:45:41.780 --> 00:45:45.460
important to them than the economic populism. And the reason
857
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:48.139
that I think that is because They didn't tell their
858
00:45:48.199 --> 00:45:53.239
judges to be economic populists like every Supreme Court decision
859
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:58.739
that comes down basically favors corporate interest rather than workers interest.
860
00:45:58.900 --> 00:46:02.360
The economic part of it, at least, you know, putting
861
00:46:02.380 --> 00:46:05.320
the voters aside, but in the expression of right wing
862
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:07.739
populism in Trump and I would say other right wing
863
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:11.920
populist leaders around the world. The economic part is basically fake.
864
00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:15.239
I mean, this has been an incredible administration for billionaires
865
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:17.960
in the oligarch class. They've never made more money or
866
00:46:18.300 --> 00:46:22.050
had more power or been deregulated. They're getting everything they want.
867
00:46:22.469 --> 00:46:24.849
And that's part of why it was easier for Trump
868
00:46:25.349 --> 00:46:27.530
to take over the Republican Party than it has been
869
00:46:27.570 --> 00:46:29.829
for the left to. to take over the Democratic Party
870
00:46:29.869 --> 00:46:34.420
because the left-wing populism, that class dynamic you're talking about,
871
00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:38.579
that is the whole thing, right? It is, in populism,
872
00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:41.239
you're basically doing the people versus who is the villain.
873
00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:44.320
For the left, the villain is the billionaires, it's the trillionaires,
874
00:46:44.380 --> 00:46:47.239
it's the Epstein class, it's the oligarchs. For the right,
875
00:46:47.780 --> 00:46:50.909
it's typically, you know, to frame it, I think you're
876
00:46:50.949 --> 00:46:52.849
right in your framing. There's usually a lot of, you know,
877
00:46:52.889 --> 00:46:56.260
scapegoating of various minority groups, right? And so you can
878
00:46:56.579 --> 00:47:00.110
use a sort of sloppilist, faux populist rhetoric when it
879
00:47:00.139 --> 00:47:02.969
comes to the economics. But that has all been cast aside.
880
00:47:03.030 --> 00:47:04.769
And in Trump 1.0, it was as well. I mean,
881
00:47:04.789 --> 00:47:08.210
their biggest economic accomplishment was this big tax cut for
882
00:47:08.250 --> 00:47:11.699
the rich that was cooked up by the Heritage Foundation
883
00:47:11.739 --> 00:47:15.150
and Paul Ryan. So I think that is an important
884
00:47:15.210 --> 00:47:19.130
distinction here. And I think that's increasingly becoming clear to
885
00:47:19.409 --> 00:47:22.369
many Americans, which is why Trump's approval rating on the
886
00:47:22.429 --> 00:47:25.800
economy is in the toilet, why there is such disgust
887
00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:29.780
with him, why you see this real rise of left-wing
888
00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:34.380
populist candidates who are overcoming a lot of money and
889
00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:38.989
establishment rejection of them and attempts to smear and demagogue
890
00:47:39.030 --> 00:47:42.380
against them. But they're able to succeed anyway because the
891
00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:45.519
establishment has lost so much credibility with the Democratic base,
892
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:49.110
and also because these economic and oligarchic forces have become
893
00:47:49.190 --> 00:47:52.090
so abundantly apparent to so many Americans.
894
00:47:52.510 --> 00:47:55.469
Yeah, John, and I think, look, again, I hear your critique.
895
00:47:57.369 --> 00:48:02.190
By the way, Sagar, your way of dealing with me
896
00:48:02.210 --> 00:48:05.010
is exactly how now I'm going to go home and
897
00:48:05.050 --> 00:48:08.559
deal with people in my family. I hear what you're saying.
898
00:48:08.780 --> 00:48:09.019
Right.
899
00:48:09.860 --> 00:48:10.880
I see how you got there.
900
00:48:10.900 --> 00:48:12.579
I see how you got there.
901
00:48:13.059 --> 00:48:15.340
Because I spend my time with Crystal and, you know.
902
00:48:15.380 --> 00:48:18.780
I've been in that way, Mo, and I understand it's
903
00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:19.960
taken you. Right.
904
00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:21.719
You took one route, we're taking another.
905
00:48:21.780 --> 00:48:22.239
Exactly.
906
00:48:22.300 --> 00:48:25.280
If you were to take my route, my preferred route. So,
907
00:48:25.719 --> 00:48:28.610
you know, you're impugning, or not impugning, you're imbuing kind
908
00:48:28.650 --> 00:48:32.670
of an ideology of just in your original analysis there.
909
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:38.119
about economics and about white identity politics. But I actually think,
910
00:48:38.380 --> 00:48:41.139
and I would take it further, is it's actually worse.
911
00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:44.780
It's really just about Trump. And I think it really
912
00:48:44.820 --> 00:48:47.909
took the Iran war to fully kick that in for me,
913
00:48:48.469 --> 00:48:52.510
is that the voters fundamentally, they just really like Trump.
914
00:48:53.070 --> 00:48:56.309
And it's actually not as much about policy or any
915
00:48:56.329 --> 00:48:59.130
of the things that you might type of think. I
916
00:48:59.389 --> 00:49:02.510
really hit home for me. When I talk to some
917
00:49:02.530 --> 00:49:05.360
of these people still all on board the Trump train,
918
00:49:05.780 --> 00:49:08.179
especially the older voters, they really just love how he
919
00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:10.619
drives people like you crazy. And that's actually just all
920
00:49:10.659 --> 00:49:10.880
it is.
921
00:49:10.900 --> 00:49:15.989
That may be the saddest thing I've ever heard.
922
00:49:16.449 --> 00:49:18.980
But it's true. It is kind of empirically true. is
923
00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:22.519
what you see is like liberal cultural rejection of Trump.
924
00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:23.960
He hates the right people.
925
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:27.440
Or no, he's hated by the right people. That's actually
926
00:49:27.460 --> 00:49:27.960
what it's about.
927
00:49:28.019 --> 00:49:28.280
All right.
928
00:49:28.380 --> 00:49:30.880
And so that's the truth, I think, at the beating
929
00:49:30.940 --> 00:49:33.219
heart of a lot of the remaining MAGA coalition.
930
00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:36.360
So if we start to like him, they'll abandon him?
931
00:49:36.570 --> 00:49:39.369
I don't know about that. The damage has probably been done,
932
00:49:39.510 --> 00:49:42.230
but I don't know if they would cling- necessarily as
933
00:49:42.250 --> 00:49:45.130
hard as you think. But this is where, though, to
934
00:49:45.190 --> 00:49:48.349
kind of break my own analysis, the one thing that
935
00:49:48.389 --> 00:49:53.079
does appear to quote unquote Trump that is the economic situation,
936
00:49:53.420 --> 00:49:55.659
which is a validation, I think, of the economic framework
937
00:49:55.699 --> 00:49:58.159
of what you're talking about. For the very first time,
938
00:49:58.659 --> 00:50:01.349
we see Trump's net approval rating or approval rating with
939
00:50:01.389 --> 00:50:04.409
Republicans on the economy as began to dip down as
940
00:50:04.449 --> 00:50:06.829
a result, both of the way that the tariffs were
941
00:50:06.869 --> 00:50:09.940
handled and because of the Iran war and $ 4 gasoline.
942
00:50:10.199 --> 00:50:13.079
That is beginning to pierce what I would say is
943
00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:15.639
the cultural veneer. And it already has, you know, definitely
944
00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:17.780
for a lot of, let's say, the younger men or
945
00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:20.800
voters who went along with Trump in 2024.
946
00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:24.469
But I'd rather talk about the designers of this program
947
00:50:25.170 --> 00:50:29.050
than those that have to live through it. I think
948
00:50:29.090 --> 00:50:34.710
I'm talking more about the designers, that the project 2025
949
00:50:34.940 --> 00:50:41.789
designers there is a christian nationalist bent to it that
950
00:50:42.010 --> 00:50:46.449
i think is the driving force of it and everything
951
00:50:46.610 --> 00:50:51.889
else is strategic and intentional about how do we get
952
00:50:51.949 --> 00:50:55.989
there how do we get to the power how do
953
00:50:56.030 --> 00:51:00.929
we get to control everything when our ultimate goal is that.
954
00:51:01.670 --> 00:51:04.260
So I actually see, I think it's much more economic.
955
00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:08.139
And even Project 2025 itself is kind of a complicated story, right?
956
00:51:08.179 --> 00:51:11.559
Because Project 2025 was written by the Heritage Foundation. It
957
00:51:11.579 --> 00:51:15.050
was explicitly disavowed by Donald Trump. on the campaign trail
958
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:16.449
who was like, I have nothing to do.
959
00:51:16.550 --> 00:51:17.150
Oh, oh.
960
00:51:17.369 --> 00:51:18.750
No, I'm not saying it was real.
961
00:51:18.889 --> 00:51:19.510
Come on, man.
962
00:51:19.730 --> 00:51:22.750
I'm saying he did devout it, correct? Like he did.
963
00:51:22.909 --> 00:51:26.690
But cynically. Yeah. He didn't disavow it. He gave it
964
00:51:26.789 --> 00:51:30.590
plausible deniability as he does it. That's my point. Okay.
965
00:51:30.710 --> 00:51:34.449
Is when you act like, wow, this Iran thing really
966
00:51:34.550 --> 00:51:38.610
caught me off guard. And then you tell me with earnestness,
967
00:51:39.090 --> 00:51:41.150
oh no, he disavowed 2025. He did nothing of the
968
00:51:41.170 --> 00:51:45.210
kind he in no way wanted to deal with the
969
00:51:45.289 --> 00:51:50.349
particulars of it because he knew how politically damaging it was. Right. No, no.
970
00:51:50.409 --> 00:51:52.710
I'm actually, I was about to get there. So I
971
00:51:52.710 --> 00:51:56.090
was saying he disavowed it only then to hire many
972
00:51:56.110 --> 00:51:59.380
of the people who were signatories of Project 2025. So
973
00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:03.019
there wasn't an acknowledgement going into the campaign that this
974
00:52:03.099 --> 00:52:06.400
is politically damaging, this type of product, the Heritage Foundation,
975
00:52:06.449 --> 00:52:09.269
et cetera. But then that became the general policy, at
976
00:52:09.309 --> 00:52:11.719
least in some areas. It's been kind of complicated because
977
00:52:11.780 --> 00:52:14.300
a lot of it is just Trump himself deciding what
978
00:52:14.320 --> 00:52:16.880
the tariff rate on China should be whenever he wakes
979
00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:18.719
up in the morning. I'm not joking. That's actually how
980
00:52:18.739 --> 00:52:19.039
it works.
981
00:52:19.639 --> 00:52:22.019
I liked when he did, he didn't like a conversation
982
00:52:22.059 --> 00:52:26.340
he had in Switzerland and he was like 50% on chocolate. Right. Yeah.
983
00:52:26.340 --> 00:52:28.699
50% on chocolate and watches for the watch community. That
984
00:52:28.739 --> 00:52:32.860
was devastating as a member of that. So like when
985
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:35.619
we talk about the designers, I don't know if it's
986
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:38.559
as intentional though, as you say, I do think all
987
00:52:38.619 --> 00:52:44.469
political coalitions have people who are insider organizations in Washington
988
00:52:44.489 --> 00:52:46.429
who are jockeying for power. That's literally the job of
989
00:52:46.449 --> 00:52:50.349
the Heritage Foundation or of these neoconservative think tanks. So
990
00:52:50.369 --> 00:52:52.329
you're saying what you're talking about, how you think the
991
00:52:52.369 --> 00:52:55.150
Iran war came out of nowhere, that's kind of a
992
00:52:55.420 --> 00:52:58.320
foolish thought. But it's just really hard for somebody who
993
00:52:58.679 --> 00:53:01.800
lives in the town, knows some of the most senior
994
00:53:01.820 --> 00:53:04.539
appointees or some of the people who were there, who
995
00:53:04.579 --> 00:53:08.250
in private and in public are spoke against war with Iran,
996
00:53:08.289 --> 00:53:10.599
made good cases against war with Iran, why we should
997
00:53:10.619 --> 00:53:13.539
disengage from the Middle East. To say that that was
998
00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:18.119
disingenuous the whole time, I'm still just having a hard
999
00:53:18.179 --> 00:53:18.539
time with it.
1000
00:53:18.539 --> 00:53:21.829
No, what I'm saying is not that it was disingenuous.
1001
00:53:22.269 --> 00:53:25.769
And I'll ask you this, Crystal. The idea wasn't that
1002
00:53:25.849 --> 00:53:29.309
they really didn't believe they would go into Iran. My
1003
00:53:29.389 --> 00:53:33.750
point is that all these other policy decisions... that have
1004
00:53:33.789 --> 00:53:36.630
gone along with the intentional design of moving us more
1005
00:53:36.690 --> 00:53:45.019
towards this intentional heritage American version, non-credal America of a
1006
00:53:45.099 --> 00:53:48.679
people who belong here more than other people, who are
1007
00:53:48.780 --> 00:53:53.659
more American than other people, real America. That's all been
1008
00:53:53.760 --> 00:54:01.409
driven by a very intentional planning group that is trying
1009
00:54:01.469 --> 00:54:05.389
to figure out ways to maximize their power, and in
1010
00:54:05.550 --> 00:54:11.639
doing so, have created this group that is manufacturing a
1011
00:54:11.739 --> 00:54:15.199
reality to get them to do that. Now, the Iran war,
1012
00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:18.199
whether it fits into that framing or not, that's the
1013
00:54:18.260 --> 00:54:22.079
reality of it. It's a cynical manipulation to get to
1014
00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:26.289
a certain goal. And my problem is, and Crystal, I'm
1015
00:54:26.309 --> 00:54:30.730
going to ask you this, Is it your problem as
1016
00:54:30.789 --> 00:54:33.650
well that you look at this sudden, like, I can't
1017
00:54:33.710 --> 00:54:37.539
believe the tiger ate my face when the rest of
1018
00:54:37.619 --> 00:54:42.500
us have been faced with this cynical manipulation of policy
1019
00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:46.059
the whole time? Yeah. Whether it got them the results
1020
00:54:46.099 --> 00:54:48.789
they wanted on immigration, but not the result they wanted
1021
00:54:48.829 --> 00:54:48.989
on Iran.
1022
00:54:50.530 --> 00:54:53.150
Yeah. I mean, at the risk of getting up on soccer,
1023
00:54:53.190 --> 00:54:53.989
I feel very.
1024
00:54:54.010 --> 00:54:56.210
And by the way, and then we'll talk about how
1025
00:54:56.230 --> 00:54:56.889
the left sucks.
1026
00:54:57.130 --> 00:54:59.829
So, OK, we'll do that in a moment. But no,
1027
00:54:59.909 --> 00:55:02.469
I mean, look, I look at the track record from
1028
00:55:02.510 --> 00:55:06.000
Trump 1.0. I look at J.D. Vance's speech, to your point,
1029
00:55:06.099 --> 00:55:10.320
about the like heritage American Christian nationalist vision for the country.
1030
00:55:10.659 --> 00:55:13.880
His speech at the RNC where he laid down an
1031
00:55:13.940 --> 00:55:17.519
explicitly blood and soil consumption conception said that. America is
1032
00:55:17.579 --> 00:55:21.300
not an idea. And then you look at Stephen Miller,
1033
00:55:21.510 --> 00:55:23.489
who is so powerful that he's been called the prime
1034
00:55:23.530 --> 00:55:27.309
minister within the administration. And this guy is a diehard
1035
00:55:27.489 --> 00:55:31.630
ideologue who loves to Nazi post on Maine. You know,
1036
00:55:31.730 --> 00:55:35.949
there is no doubt what his priorities are. And so far,
1037
00:55:36.369 --> 00:55:38.929
as Trump even has said, like, oh, this guy would
1038
00:55:38.949 --> 00:55:40.690
like there to just be 100 million people in the
1039
00:55:40.730 --> 00:55:42.590
country that all look like him. So it's not a
1040
00:55:42.630 --> 00:55:45.690
secret what his priorities are. And he's been given a
1041
00:55:45.809 --> 00:55:49.289
free hand. in order to execute that sort of policy.
1042
00:55:49.570 --> 00:55:51.150
So I think you have that strain. And then I
1043
00:55:51.190 --> 00:55:54.750
think you have a Trump is just the most self-dealing
1044
00:55:54.829 --> 00:55:59.519
corrupt person on the entire planet, who also has Kushner
1045
00:55:59.679 --> 00:56:03.159
and Witkoff and these other characters who are also focused
1046
00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:07.440
on looting and self-dealing as the other primary impetus within
1047
00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:09.679
the administration. And I think when you put all of
1048
00:56:09.739 --> 00:56:12.940
that together, and also Trump's desire to be this big
1049
00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:17.019
man in history, and he wants this world-changing legacy, whether
1050
00:56:17.059 --> 00:56:18.840
that is for good or for ill. I think that's
1051
00:56:18.880 --> 00:56:22.030
part of what explains the Iran war in particular. But
1052
00:56:22.070 --> 00:56:25.849
when you put the ideologues together with the self-dealing together
1053
00:56:25.909 --> 00:56:29.070
with the total lack of any guardrails on this train
1054
00:56:29.110 --> 00:56:32.190
at this point, that's how you end up with this situation.
1055
00:56:32.269 --> 00:56:34.050
And yes, to your point, I mean, not only was
1056
00:56:34.150 --> 00:56:36.130
it predictable, it was predicted.
1057
00:56:42.929 --> 00:56:45.300
Mint Mobile. And it's important that you throw in the
1058
00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:49.239
mobile there. There's Mint. We all know what that's about.
1059
00:56:49.860 --> 00:56:53.739
But Mint Mobile, what we're talking about here is a
1060
00:56:53.840 --> 00:56:59.630
phone company that's delivering you their product for less than
1061
00:56:59.670 --> 00:57:02.090
what other phone companies are doing. I don't know what
1062
00:57:02.130 --> 00:57:04.170
you want out of a phone company. What I want
1063
00:57:04.210 --> 00:57:06.130
out of a phone company is deliver me a good
1064
00:57:06.210 --> 00:57:10.780
product for less and don't bother me. Mint Mobile plan,
1065
00:57:10.780 --> 00:57:18.059
15 bucks a month, 15 bucks. A month. What is it?
1066
00:57:18.059 --> 00:57:18.519
1992?
1067
00:57:18.519 --> 00:57:21.480
15 bucks a month. High-speed data, unlimited talk and text
1068
00:57:21.500 --> 00:57:24.460
delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You want to
1069
00:57:24.500 --> 00:57:26.869
bring your current phone and your current number? Do it.
1070
00:57:28.889 --> 00:57:31.730
Get rid of your overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile. It's
1071
00:57:31.789 --> 00:57:35.510
not diabolical. It's just good value. Get your new wireless
1072
00:57:35.550 --> 00:57:37.789
plan for just 15 bucks a month. Go to mintmobile.com
1073
00:57:37.809 --> 00:57:43.739
slash TWS. That's mintmobile.com slash TWS. Get your wireless bill
1074
00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:49.699
to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash TWS. That's it.
1075
00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:53.800
There's no catch. Upfront payments of $ 45 for three months,
1076
00:57:53.800 --> 00:57:58.449
$ 90 for six months, or $ 180 for 12 months. Plan required.
1077
00:57:58.449 --> 00:58:01.269
$ 15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan
1078
00:58:01.289 --> 00:58:04.250
term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network
1079
00:58:04.289 --> 00:58:09.699
is busy. Includes up to 20 gigabyte hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed,
1080
00:58:09.800 --> 00:58:14.690
and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. I really hope they speed
1081
00:58:14.750 --> 00:58:22.550
that up. So given all that, and I think that's
1082
00:58:22.969 --> 00:58:26.739
a summation that I would not disagree with, why is
1083
00:58:26.820 --> 00:58:29.860
it that the Democrats are having such a difficult time?
1084
00:58:30.420 --> 00:58:33.139
They don't control anything. They don't control the Senate. They
1085
00:58:33.159 --> 00:58:35.219
don't control the Congress. They don't control the court. They
1086
00:58:35.239 --> 00:58:39.050
don't control the White House. So what is it about
1087
00:58:39.139 --> 00:58:44.260
the way that Democrats have governed that has allowed this,
1088
00:58:45.320 --> 00:58:49.300
in my mind, cynical and corrupt experiment to take such hold.
1089
00:58:49.780 --> 00:58:53.880
And when will accountability come for that? Because I don't
1090
00:58:53.940 --> 00:58:56.590
think that Trump arose for no reason.
1091
00:58:56.739 --> 00:58:57.030
Agreed.
1092
00:58:57.119 --> 00:59:01.309
I think people were dissatisfied with a government that did
1093
00:59:01.369 --> 00:59:04.170
not seem to be responsive to the needs of the
1094
00:59:04.230 --> 00:59:05.989
people and was at a remove.
1095
00:59:07.030 --> 00:59:09.730
Yes, I agree. And I think what we've seen at
1096
00:59:09.769 --> 00:59:14.820
this point is a sort of limp status quo decorum
1097
00:59:14.909 --> 00:59:18.690
obsessed liberalism. is not going to be sufficient to fight
1098
00:59:18.750 --> 00:59:21.429
what I see as rising forces of fascism in the country.
1099
00:59:21.489 --> 00:59:23.710
They weren't historically. You know, when we had a previous
1100
00:59:24.170 --> 00:59:27.090
rise of a fascist movement in this country, it took FDR,
1101
00:59:27.130 --> 00:59:29.480
it took the New Deal coalition, a sort of experiment
1102
00:59:29.500 --> 00:59:31.940
in social democracy here in the U.S.
1103
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:38.300
Forget about rising fascism, though. How about just like rural broadband? Like,
1104
00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:40.400
I'm not even talking about a party that is not
1105
00:59:40.539 --> 00:59:44.070
up to the task of fighting the Nazis. I'm talking
1106
00:59:44.119 --> 00:59:46.269
about a party that is not up to the task
1107
00:59:47.110 --> 00:59:53.449
Of competently governing and easing the difficulties that people are
1108
00:59:53.469 --> 00:59:56.030
facing in their day-to-day lives, not being responsive to their needs.
1109
00:59:57.219 --> 00:59:58.219
See, I would pick up on that.
1110
00:59:58.300 --> 01:00:03.199
Not only not responsive to their needs, but actively gaslighting
1111
01:00:03.239 --> 01:00:06.019
them about their needs. I mean, we could go back
1112
01:00:06.119 --> 01:00:10.130
to the financial crisis and the response to that, which
1113
01:00:10.210 --> 01:00:14.469
was too little, where there was zero accountability to Wall
1114
01:00:14.489 --> 01:00:19.550
Street criminals. where homeowners were completely screwed. And you can
1115
01:00:19.630 --> 01:00:23.809
see the seeds of that dissatisfaction. And now we've got
1116
01:00:23.949 --> 01:00:27.000
two generations, millennials and Zoomers, and soon it'll be Gen
1117
01:00:27.059 --> 01:00:29.139
Alpha as well, who are being shut down of the
1118
01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:32.929
American dream, who can't aspire to buy a house. who
1119
01:00:33.010 --> 01:00:34.969
see education costs, you know, they're told to go get
1120
01:00:34.989 --> 01:00:37.809
a college degree. That college degree is wildly expensive. They're
1121
01:00:37.829 --> 01:00:39.489
saddled with debt and then they can't get a good
1122
01:00:39.510 --> 01:00:41.789
job out of it. A bunch of AI oligarchs are
1123
01:00:41.809 --> 01:00:44.269
telling them they're going to take their jobs anyway. And
1124
01:00:44.289 --> 01:00:48.590
there has been a wildly insufficient at best response from
1125
01:00:48.670 --> 01:00:52.510
the Democratic Party establishment who have been more interested in
1126
01:00:52.590 --> 01:00:55.869
palliative care for America and the working class of America
1127
01:00:55.909 --> 01:00:57.530
in particular than Wait.
1128
01:00:57.550 --> 01:01:00.349
They put us in hospice?
1129
01:01:00.510 --> 01:01:03.659
Pretty much, and governing effectively. And so, you know, one
1130
01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:06.760
of the things that we've seen in the small pilot
1131
01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:10.030
experiment of Zoran Mamdani in New York City, where, look,
1132
01:01:10.070 --> 01:01:11.949
you're the mayor of a city, it's a big city,
1133
01:01:11.989 --> 01:01:14.429
but you've got limited powers. is I do think you
1134
01:01:14.489 --> 01:01:17.070
see a different approach to governance where there's a real
1135
01:01:17.130 --> 01:01:19.420
commitment to, no, we're going to make promises. We're going
1136
01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:21.579
to deliver on those promises. People are going to feel
1137
01:01:21.619 --> 01:01:24.000
the impact of government in a positive way. I'm sure
1138
01:01:24.019 --> 01:01:26.340
you probably saw the story. Someone posted a picture of
1139
01:01:26.380 --> 01:01:28.659
a pothole on, I think it was Instagram. And by
1140
01:01:28.679 --> 01:01:30.199
the end of the day, he had come and filled
1141
01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:33.550
that pothole. It's something small, but it makes people feel like, oh,
1142
01:01:34.010 --> 01:01:37.070
the tax dollars that I'm paying, the government that I elected,
1143
01:01:37.489 --> 01:01:39.869
they actually are trying to make my life better in
1144
01:01:39.889 --> 01:01:42.829
a way that materially improves my quality of life. And
1145
01:01:42.889 --> 01:01:46.159
Democrats have become completely divorced from that. And then, you know,
1146
01:01:46.179 --> 01:01:47.940
the other part of this, of course, hangs over all
1147
01:01:47.960 --> 01:01:49.739
of it is money and politics. And this is really
1148
01:01:49.780 --> 01:01:52.039
the root cause of so much of it, where they
1149
01:01:52.219 --> 01:01:56.429
are beholden to corporations. They're beholden to special interests, whether
1150
01:01:56.510 --> 01:02:00.050
it's APAC or big tech, et cetera, that keeps them
1151
01:02:00.250 --> 01:02:02.829
at odds with the needs and the desires of the
1152
01:02:02.869 --> 01:02:05.269
American people. And so that's why I've been so heartened
1153
01:02:05.469 --> 01:02:08.260
to see this reckoning that is happening between the Democratic
1154
01:02:08.340 --> 01:02:10.739
base and the Democratic establishment in the party.
1155
01:02:11.570 --> 01:02:15.809
Sagar, how do you see the left now? Do you
1156
01:02:15.869 --> 01:02:17.929
buy into the framing? There's a lot of talk about
1157
01:02:18.610 --> 01:02:22.239
now they're socialists, and very rarely does anyone ever talk
1158
01:02:22.300 --> 01:02:26.739
about what socialism is. It's just a word, and no
1159
01:02:26.800 --> 01:02:30.980
one really describes in terms of specific policy what's socialist
1160
01:02:32.239 --> 01:02:35.280
about it. How do you see the left? What would
1161
01:02:35.320 --> 01:02:41.039
be your greatest criticism of them, and what would be
1162
01:02:41.980 --> 01:02:45.760
you're fixed to that? How could you see them recovering
1163
01:02:45.800 --> 01:02:46.099
from that?
1164
01:02:46.280 --> 01:02:48.780
So, I mean, look, I do not speak for the right.
1165
01:02:49.019 --> 01:02:51.480
So I'm a very unique person. I don't really care
1166
01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:53.800
about Hassan Piker. I did an event with him. He
1167
01:02:53.840 --> 01:02:56.280
was fine. We were perfectly cordial. I actually think he's
1168
01:02:56.480 --> 01:02:59.019
not nearly as radical as a lot of people think
1169
01:02:59.059 --> 01:03:01.119
that he is. And so I don't know if I'm
1170
01:03:01.139 --> 01:03:04.360
the best person to answer, but from my perspective, here's
1171
01:03:04.380 --> 01:03:07.630
what I would say, is that fundamentally- What I think,
1172
01:03:07.670 --> 01:03:09.710
you know, you guys talked about, you know, there's been
1173
01:03:09.730 --> 01:03:11.449
a lot of like, oh, cultural issues and all of
1174
01:03:11.469 --> 01:03:14.090
that are nonsense. At the end of the day, there's
1175
01:03:14.130 --> 01:03:19.289
only one movement in recent history that won households under $ 100, 000.
1176
01:03:18.650 --> 01:03:22.090
That was Donald Trump in the 2024 campaign, which he
1177
01:03:22.110 --> 01:03:26.250
won the popular vote. The DSA and leftists is predominantly
1178
01:03:26.269 --> 01:03:30.489
a coalition of downwardly mobile white liberals. A lot of
1179
01:03:30.630 --> 01:03:33.250
people who don't have a four-year college degree find the
1180
01:03:33.309 --> 01:03:36.190
movement distasteful or distrust. And we saw that just what
1181
01:03:36.210 --> 01:03:40.110
happened in the Abdul El-Sayed campaign in the primary election
1182
01:03:40.190 --> 01:03:44.250
where you had older black voters or traditional political constituency
1183
01:03:44.630 --> 01:03:47.269
and households that don't have four-year college did not vote
1184
01:03:47.289 --> 01:03:49.130
for him. So a lot of.
1185
01:03:49.130 --> 01:03:51.929
This- Still vote. I mean, that was a democratic primary,
1186
01:03:51.969 --> 01:03:52.469
but go ahead.
1187
01:03:52.730 --> 01:03:55.869
Right, but that's emblematic also in the general election results
1188
01:03:55.889 --> 01:03:58.710
of 2024. So if we try to transpose those two things,
1189
01:03:58.889 --> 01:04:01.570
the most likely predictor of what your politics are in
1190
01:04:01.590 --> 01:04:04.320
this country is whether you have four-year college degree or not.
1191
01:04:05.159 --> 01:04:08.050
And if for your college degree is also correlated highly
1192
01:04:08.090 --> 01:04:12.530
with income, the Democratic Party, while may having economic positions
1193
01:04:12.849 --> 01:04:16.210
that supposedly benefit the working class, is not convinced the
1194
01:04:16.250 --> 01:04:19.800
working class. Yes, that's just empirically true. And so that's
1195
01:04:19.860 --> 01:04:23.260
kind of like my criticism, if you will, if it's,
1196
01:04:23.659 --> 01:04:25.619
you know, Crystal gave her speech, so I'll give my
1197
01:04:25.659 --> 01:04:28.619
worst case scenario. you know, my worst faith interpretation would
1198
01:04:28.659 --> 01:04:32.679
be it's class cosplay. I mean, fundamentally it is, um,
1199
01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:37.650
cosplay of dressing up, you know, said, you know, basically
1200
01:04:37.750 --> 01:04:40.769
woke one type policy and or rhetoric.
1201
01:04:40.349 --> 01:04:43.690
To explain that what is, yeah, this is a whole thing, right?
1202
01:04:43.710 --> 01:04:46.070
I mean, also let, let, let's be fair. Like, I mean,
1203
01:04:46.250 --> 01:04:47.989
Trump is the one who puts on the apron and
1204
01:04:48.030 --> 01:04:51.019
sits in the McDonald's wing. Like, talk about cosplay. Like,
1205
01:04:51.059 --> 01:04:52.260
you know, how many times can you hear?
1206
01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:53.880
Depends what type of cosplay we're cosplaying.
1207
01:04:53.900 --> 01:04:55.800
He's a blue collar billionaire. And you're like, yeah, I
1208
01:04:55.820 --> 01:04:56.519
don't think that's a thing.
1209
01:04:56.539 --> 01:05:00.030
He's cosplaying Norman Rockwell America, obviously, which is, you know,
1210
01:05:00.510 --> 01:05:01.190
highly effective.
1211
01:05:01.369 --> 01:05:01.630
All right.
1212
01:05:01.670 --> 01:05:03.170
So you have to grapple with that if you want
1213
01:05:03.190 --> 01:05:07.030
to win in America's in an American politics today. And so.
1214
01:05:07.710 --> 01:05:07.909
Yeah.
1215
01:05:07.989 --> 01:05:09.630
I mean, I think, and we're talking to the whole
1216
01:05:09.650 --> 01:05:10.730
woke one debate.
1217
01:05:11.389 --> 01:05:13.550
Yeah. Tell me what you mean by that, because I'm not.
1218
01:05:13.489 --> 01:05:16.909
Sure I understand. AOC recently went on television and she said, quote,
1219
01:05:16.949 --> 01:05:19.269
woke one was crazy. And it was in relation to
1220
01:05:19.349 --> 01:05:22.519
Francesca Hong, who's a DSA candidate who is very likely
1221
01:05:22.579 --> 01:05:25.579
to win, I think tonight was primary in Wisconsin in
1222
01:05:25.599 --> 01:05:28.599
the gubernatorial election in which I don't have the exact
1223
01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:30.880
tweet in front of me had said something along the
1224
01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:34.190
lines of critical of Thanksgiving and She gives an interview
1225
01:05:34.550 --> 01:05:37.110
in which they said, so do you want to cancel Thanksgiving?
1226
01:05:37.429 --> 01:05:40.590
And gives a word salad level of an answer. Okay.
1227
01:05:40.869 --> 01:05:43.730
Might seem nonsensical. John, you and I both know that
1228
01:05:43.769 --> 01:05:46.429
in this country, that is not exactly how you're going
1229
01:05:46.449 --> 01:05:49.489
to appeal, quote unquote, to the very working class that
1230
01:05:49.530 --> 01:05:50.510
we're talking about here.
1231
01:05:50.590 --> 01:05:51.429
My favorite holiday.
1232
01:05:51.489 --> 01:05:51.679
Yeah.
1233
01:05:51.760 --> 01:05:55.139
It's most people's favorite holiday. It's most normal people's favorite holiday.
1234
01:05:55.219 --> 01:05:59.059
And so that comes across as deeply disconnected and obsessed
1235
01:05:59.179 --> 01:06:01.989
with you know, what some activist is either going to
1236
01:06:02.050 --> 01:06:05.829
say towards you or your genuine belief that Thanksgiving or
1237
01:06:06.010 --> 01:06:08.269
just like white society, which she's also talked a lot
1238
01:06:08.289 --> 01:06:11.969
about her own like biracial son and potentially being ashamed
1239
01:06:11.989 --> 01:06:15.329
of that, like that is deeply off-putting, I think, to
1240
01:06:15.510 --> 01:06:18.150
a lot of people. And so that is where like
1241
01:06:18.210 --> 01:06:20.349
to the extent that I have a critique, I guess,
1242
01:06:20.530 --> 01:06:23.489
is they're saying, oh, woke one was crazy. And it's like, no,
1243
01:06:23.510 --> 01:06:25.530
but you still believe many of the things that woke
1244
01:06:25.679 --> 01:06:26.760
one consisted of.
1245
01:06:27.050 --> 01:06:29.389
She's still saying that now? No, no, no.
1246
01:06:29.489 --> 01:06:32.949
What I'm saying is AOC had said Woke One was crazy.
1247
01:06:33.130 --> 01:06:35.190
As in the rhetoric that we use, there was an
1248
01:06:35.349 --> 01:06:36.130
Overton window.
1249
01:06:36.670 --> 01:06:38.309
Oh, okay. All right. I see what you're saying.
1250
01:06:38.349 --> 01:06:40.659
And she made it clear that much of the rhetoric
1251
01:06:40.739 --> 01:06:44.639
that was used from 2020 was bad, right? And I'm like, okay,
1252
01:06:44.679 --> 01:06:47.699
that's fine. But- you know, kind of, John, as you're saying,
1253
01:06:48.099 --> 01:06:51.280
if the rhetoric was bad, well, what about the idea? Like,
1254
01:06:51.300 --> 01:06:54.280
do you still believe like in defund the police? Zoran
1255
01:06:54.449 --> 01:06:57.309
had explicitly apologized to the cops and said, no, I'm
1256
01:06:57.349 --> 01:06:58.130
sorry I said that.
1257
01:06:58.469 --> 01:06:58.670
Right.
1258
01:06:58.730 --> 01:07:00.969
And so, OK, that's fine, you know, for people like me.
1259
01:07:01.170 --> 01:07:03.329
But isn't on the flip side of that, isn't going
1260
01:07:03.369 --> 01:07:06.789
through people's old tweets, isn't that what the right hated about?
1261
01:07:06.829 --> 01:07:07.690
Absolutely fair.
1262
01:07:08.070 --> 01:07:08.349
Fair.
1263
01:07:08.449 --> 01:07:10.900
You're right. It's part of cancel culture. And it has
1264
01:07:10.940 --> 01:07:15.000
the right Embrace cancel culture, yes, especially whenever it comes
1265
01:07:15.019 --> 01:07:17.550
to anti-Semitism and all of this.
1266
01:07:17.800 --> 01:07:18.469
Or Bud Light.
1267
01:07:18.570 --> 01:07:19.449
Or Bud Light, sure.
1268
01:07:19.469 --> 01:07:22.929
But yeah, I get what you're saying. Is so much
1269
01:07:23.050 --> 01:07:28.170
of woke now or cancel culture or anything also just
1270
01:07:28.789 --> 01:07:35.590
the ubiquity of social media, meaning we've democratized criticism. So
1271
01:07:35.829 --> 01:07:40.530
social media makes its money on outrage, conflict, all those things.
1272
01:07:42.039 --> 01:07:47.380
different things, isn't it just a reflection of there is
1273
01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:51.300
no such thing as a non-cancel culture because everything that
1274
01:07:51.340 --> 01:07:55.989
you say, somebody will try and seek advantage of it
1275
01:07:56.550 --> 01:08:00.909
and highlight it and amplify it to help them do that.
1276
01:08:00.969 --> 01:08:01.349
Certainly.
1277
01:08:01.489 --> 01:08:06.210
And I also don't understand how, you know, the idea that, well,
1278
01:08:06.349 --> 01:08:09.460
she said Thanksgiving should be canceled, so she's crazy, but
1279
01:08:09.679 --> 01:08:13.239
he said Trump won the 2020 election. That's fine.
1280
01:08:13.440 --> 01:08:13.639
Right.
1281
01:08:13.800 --> 01:08:15.019
We're all just going to go along with it.
1282
01:08:15.019 --> 01:08:16.720
Is it fine, though? Well, no, but I'm saying I
1283
01:08:16.760 --> 01:08:19.619
think I think people who say that get plenty of criticism, though.
1284
01:08:19.699 --> 01:08:21.340
I don't think it's fine. I don't think that's true.
1285
01:08:21.380 --> 01:08:24.079
But they get criticism, but there's no accountability. It's not
1286
01:08:24.119 --> 01:08:26.979
like they don't still get confirmed by the Senate. OK,
1287
01:08:27.039 --> 01:08:29.090
it's not that they get. They can sit in a
1288
01:08:29.170 --> 01:08:29.989
confirmation here.
1289
01:08:30.010 --> 01:08:33.649
For example, Mike Rogers is an election denier. And I
1290
01:08:33.829 --> 01:08:35.729
haven't seen all the hand-wringing about like, oh, my God,
1291
01:08:35.770 --> 01:08:37.890
is he going to be able to win and win
1292
01:08:37.909 --> 01:08:40.510
over moderate voters because he's such an extremist on this?
1293
01:08:40.729 --> 01:08:43.069
See, I'm not sure that's true. I see that story
1294
01:08:43.130 --> 01:08:43.930
like two days ago.
1295
01:08:43.949 --> 01:08:46.850
What I've heard is all about how extreme Abdul is because, oh,
1296
01:08:46.880 --> 01:08:49.380
my God, he hung out with Hassan Piker. How dare he?
1297
01:08:49.880 --> 01:08:54.000
versus Mike Rogers, who actually holds these views himself and
1298
01:08:54.140 --> 01:08:57.090
has expressed them multiple times, that's not framed as being
1299
01:08:57.170 --> 01:08:59.649
too extreme for a moderate voter.
1300
01:08:59.750 --> 01:09:02.930
But I'm sure he doesn't actually hold those views. Again,
1301
01:09:02.949 --> 01:09:06.239
it's cynical. He doesn't actually hold them. I'm sure he's
1302
01:09:06.260 --> 01:09:07.100
not an idiot. Right.
1303
01:09:07.199 --> 01:09:08.850
But it doesn't really matter at the end of the
1304
01:09:08.890 --> 01:09:11.310
day whether he believes it in his heart of hearts
1305
01:09:11.710 --> 01:09:14.210
or whether it's a cynical posture. He's going to act
1306
01:09:14.250 --> 01:09:16.250
and behave in the same way because he's going to
1307
01:09:16.289 --> 01:09:18.869
be a rubber stamp for Donald Trump at the end
1308
01:09:18.890 --> 01:09:21.729
of the day. So, no, I think woke is, you know,
1309
01:09:21.750 --> 01:09:24.760
and especially the current iteration of woke coming from the
1310
01:09:24.779 --> 01:09:25.439
Trump administration.
1311
01:09:25.479 --> 01:09:28.539
Now, what's the current? So what's if that's woke point one,
1312
01:09:28.560 --> 01:09:29.380
what's woke point two?
1313
01:09:29.920 --> 01:09:32.220
Well, that's, I think, up for debate. But currently we're
1314
01:09:32.260 --> 01:09:35.979
living through a Trump regime that wants to crush any
1315
01:09:36.039 --> 01:09:38.859
sort of dissent. The place where they've come down the
1316
01:09:38.899 --> 01:09:41.539
hardest is on any sort of criticism of Israel, which
1317
01:09:41.579 --> 01:09:44.560
is characterized as being anti-Semitic. And they've used it as
1318
01:09:44.600 --> 01:09:49.890
an excuse to jail, to crush protests, to deport. And
1319
01:09:50.270 --> 01:09:54.369
as part of their NSPM 7 project, they also use
1320
01:09:54.409 --> 01:09:57.590
that to label you as effectively a terrorist and subject
1321
01:09:57.630 --> 01:10:01.149
to potential government action and surveillance. So it goes far
1322
01:10:01.189 --> 01:10:05.640
beyond some like social media cancellation campaign at this point.
1323
01:10:06.039 --> 01:10:09.220
And I think really does expose how at its core,
1324
01:10:09.359 --> 01:10:13.420
this is really about controlling the bounds of debate, about
1325
01:10:13.859 --> 01:10:18.920
scaring people into compliance, you know, against an unpopular policy
1326
01:10:19.319 --> 01:10:21.880
and about maintaining power. So I think that's the way
1327
01:10:21.899 --> 01:10:23.520
that it's really been deployed by Trump.
1328
01:10:23.560 --> 01:10:25.529
Does that sound like woke 2.0 to you, Sagar?
1329
01:10:25.689 --> 01:10:30.859
It's this is the difficulty. I accept Crystal's entire critique
1330
01:10:31.100 --> 01:10:35.579
as that is the definition of woke. I've described the anti-Semitism,
1331
01:10:36.119 --> 01:10:39.760
you know, freak out in the administration as like Ibrahim X.
1332
01:10:39.800 --> 01:10:44.539
Kendi's dream come true, like going after, you know, universities
1333
01:10:44.579 --> 01:10:49.390
and saying you're not sufficiently and not anti-anti-Semitic enough. I
1334
01:10:49.399 --> 01:10:51.550
think it's outrageous. I think it's obviously a violation and
1335
01:10:51.569 --> 01:10:54.829
all of that of free speech. Woke 2.0 is what
1336
01:10:55.029 --> 01:10:58.430
I think is, you know, for example, Abdul El-Sayed, the
1337
01:10:58.470 --> 01:11:02.140
candidate in Michigan, literally claimed that he'd never said defund
1338
01:11:02.159 --> 01:11:05.060
the police. He did say it. He lied about that. Now,
1339
01:11:05.220 --> 01:11:08.300
that's an important thing. Okay, but John, he said it,
1340
01:11:08.399 --> 01:11:10.399
and he lied that he didn't say it. He deleted
1341
01:11:10.439 --> 01:11:12.739
his tweet, and that's fine. That may not be objectionable
1342
01:11:12.800 --> 01:11:14.689
to you, but it certainly is objectionable.
1343
01:11:14.890 --> 01:11:17.409
We've all lived through the campaign ads of guys on
1344
01:11:17.430 --> 01:11:20.050
the left having to walk with police and go like...
1345
01:11:20.449 --> 01:11:22.149
It's actually, they're quite nice.
1346
01:11:22.449 --> 01:11:25.329
Well, I actually think that's healthy and good because it
1347
01:11:25.529 --> 01:11:28.460
establishes good norms in society as opposed to, you know,
1348
01:11:28.500 --> 01:11:30.500
like wanting to defund and or ban police.
1349
01:11:30.659 --> 01:11:35.659
Well, that's, I never understood why progressives reject safety, public
1350
01:11:35.720 --> 01:11:39.939
safety as a non-progressive value. I always look at it
1351
01:11:40.060 --> 01:11:45.850
as don't people in the most economically devastated areas deserve
1352
01:11:45.890 --> 01:11:50.239
the same level of law and order that people in
1353
01:11:50.279 --> 01:11:55.600
Beverly Hills enjoy. I never understood why you would hold
1354
01:11:55.619 --> 01:11:58.939
back on that. But Tucker, the anti-Semitism thing is kind
1355
01:11:58.979 --> 01:12:03.159
of interesting to me as someone who's received pretty good
1356
01:12:03.220 --> 01:12:06.539
anti-Semitic stuff and been accused of being it myself. You know,
1357
01:12:06.579 --> 01:12:09.180
if you look at the Twitter feed, I'll always get like,
1358
01:12:09.220 --> 01:12:12.520
you're a dirty Jew, along with you're a capo. Like,
1359
01:12:13.029 --> 01:12:16.750
you get it all. I'm interested on the right, this
1360
01:12:16.869 --> 01:12:21.899
idea of you know, they fight anti-Semitism when very clearly
1361
01:12:22.220 --> 01:12:27.020
they hire people. You know, there's the Republican, young Republican
1362
01:12:27.060 --> 01:12:29.989
club in New York where they go through their chat
1363
01:12:30.029 --> 01:12:35.510
history and it's just vile, like flat out anti-Semitism. Or J.D.
1364
01:12:35.550 --> 01:12:39.470
Vance will say, look, the Nazi jokes, who doesn't like
1365
01:12:39.590 --> 01:12:42.560
to have a Nazi joke? I don't think we should
1366
01:12:42.600 --> 01:12:47.770
hold that against people. While basically forcing universities to pay
1367
01:12:47.810 --> 01:12:51.939
them millions and millions of dollars it's again can you
1368
01:12:52.100 --> 01:12:57.159
understand why the whole thing feels cynical.
1369
01:12:57.159 --> 01:12:59.119
Sure yeah and you're right because it is cynical because
1370
01:12:59.149 --> 01:13:01.550
it's not about anti-semitism it's about israel that's what it's
1371
01:13:01.590 --> 01:13:03.630
about it's about the unholy alliance but.
1372
01:13:03.590 --> 01:13:07.390
Can't you understand now how writ large the whole operation
1373
01:13:07.470 --> 01:13:09.720
seems cynical Yeah, but.
1374
01:13:09.699 --> 01:13:11.439
I would say that a lot of Democratic stuff is
1375
01:13:11.500 --> 01:13:12.479
just as cynical, right?
1376
01:13:12.579 --> 01:13:16.750
And so then– Very well be, but you'd have to
1377
01:13:16.829 --> 01:13:19.729
tell me those– you'd have to make those points to
1378
01:13:19.770 --> 01:13:22.210
me as well. I could tell you what's cynical and
1379
01:13:22.250 --> 01:13:25.289
what's not, but I don't hear a lot of specificity
1380
01:13:25.430 --> 01:13:26.789
in the criticism.
1381
01:13:26.789 --> 01:13:29.989
100% fair. How much time do we have? I think–
1382
01:13:30.789 --> 01:13:31.310
Not much.
1383
01:13:31.350 --> 01:13:32.229
You're busy people.
1384
01:13:32.270 --> 01:13:34.369
Yeah, I think to your I do want to pick
1385
01:13:34.409 --> 01:13:35.350
up on the anti-Semitism.
1386
01:13:35.470 --> 01:13:35.689
Sure.
1387
01:13:35.710 --> 01:13:37.970
Just because I do want people to I want this
1388
01:13:38.029 --> 01:13:42.239
to be emphasized is it does expose the lie at
1389
01:13:42.279 --> 01:13:44.239
the heart of it. As you just said, that any
1390
01:13:44.260 --> 01:13:48.079
of this is really about anti-Semitism or any genuine concern.
1391
01:13:48.520 --> 01:13:52.859
It's about Israel. And it is just the pro-Israel alliance
1392
01:13:53.359 --> 01:13:57.029
with the Trump administration. And, you know, Chris, you eloquently
1393
01:13:57.510 --> 01:14:00.380
talked about woke 2.0. and how it's about power. I
1394
01:14:00.399 --> 01:14:04.430
think Woke 1.0 was also about power, cultural takeover in
1395
01:14:04.470 --> 01:14:07.310
order to defend an unpopular policy. So I think they
1396
01:14:07.329 --> 01:14:09.689
both have two things in common. And in both cases,
1397
01:14:09.890 --> 01:14:12.829
I think both are genuinely not about what they allegedly
1398
01:14:12.869 --> 01:14:16.350
were supposed to be, anti-Semitism and or racism. I think
1399
01:14:16.390 --> 01:14:19.069
both are about cultural power, who gets to have said
1400
01:14:19.109 --> 01:14:21.909
power in our society. Again, I would say I would
1401
01:14:22.130 --> 01:14:25.510
never have predicted it, John. And perhaps that's the dupe
1402
01:14:26.210 --> 01:14:28.020
in me, but You know, how can you come up
1403
01:14:28.060 --> 01:14:30.199
with people who've been talking about free speech for 10
1404
01:14:30.199 --> 01:14:33.479
years only to then, when they have power, deport people
1405
01:14:33.520 --> 01:14:35.649
for what they have said? I would not have predicted that, never,
1406
01:14:35.770 --> 01:14:37.710
in a million years. And so I do have to
1407
01:14:37.750 --> 01:14:40.609
be forced to accept some of your own criticism of
1408
01:14:40.649 --> 01:14:41.130
what you're saying.
1409
01:14:41.310 --> 01:14:46.409
I'm just saying, like Donald Trump said to Zuckerberg, Mark Zuckerberg,
1410
01:14:48.029 --> 01:14:51.689
Zuckerbucks is what threw the election. And so if he
1411
01:14:51.729 --> 01:14:54.560
tries that again, I'm going to put him in jail. Mm-hmm.
1412
01:14:57.060 --> 01:14:59.859
I said that to Elon Musk. I said, so you
1413
01:14:59.920 --> 01:15:04.060
said free speech is your line. You're supporting a guy
1414
01:15:04.359 --> 01:15:08.720
who's literally threatened to jail somebody if they exercise their
1415
01:15:08.739 --> 01:15:12.840
free speech while you're, as a social media mogul, doing
1416
01:15:13.060 --> 01:15:17.579
far more direct electioneering, giving away a million dollars here,
1417
01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:23.340
setting up an algorithm that favors conservative content. How can
1418
01:15:23.380 --> 01:15:26.600
you justify that? And he says, oh, Trump has just
1419
01:15:27.000 --> 01:15:32.390
That's just talk. So I guess my point is, you
1420
01:15:32.430 --> 01:15:34.750
see the clues you want to see, Crystal, and the
1421
01:15:34.789 --> 01:15:38.640
same could be said from the left. If somebody was saying, yeah, man,
1422
01:15:38.729 --> 01:15:41.579
I'm going to open all the borders, and then that's
1423
01:15:41.619 --> 01:15:45.439
what happens. And you say, when you say, well, they
1424
01:15:45.460 --> 01:15:48.350
said it. How can you pretend that they didn't?
1425
01:15:50.810 --> 01:15:54.989
Well, yeah, I mean, I think to me, it's not
1426
01:15:55.029 --> 01:15:57.609
just about listening to the rhetoric. It's also looking at
1427
01:15:57.710 --> 01:16:01.750
the actions. And, you know, I mean, look, it's no
1428
01:16:01.789 --> 01:16:04.390
secret Trump behaves like an authoritarian. He does it in
1429
01:16:04.449 --> 01:16:07.090
his business. He did it in Trump 1.0. You want
1430
01:16:07.109 --> 01:16:10.369
to just shoot protesters in the knees. That's hardly pro
1431
01:16:10.430 --> 01:16:14.470
First Amendment, pro free speech type of activity. And on
1432
01:16:14.710 --> 01:16:18.069
anti-Semitism specifically, I mean, there's always been even at the
1433
01:16:18.090 --> 01:16:21.270
height of, oh, we're pro free speech, etc., there's always
1434
01:16:21.310 --> 01:16:23.960
been a carve out for Israel. I mean, just look
1435
01:16:24.000 --> 01:16:27.000
at these anti-BDS laws across the country. Look at the
1436
01:16:27.039 --> 01:16:31.399
number of professors who had their careers attacked by free
1437
01:16:31.439 --> 01:16:34.859
speech maven Barry Weiss as one example. So there's always
1438
01:16:34.899 --> 01:16:38.829
been a carve out there because it's about protecting Israel.
1439
01:16:38.869 --> 01:16:42.149
And it's also about a lot of the influence they've
1440
01:16:42.170 --> 01:16:44.909
successfully been able to wield, which is not unique to
1441
01:16:44.930 --> 01:16:47.149
the Israel lobby, but is very central to the way
1442
01:16:47.170 --> 01:16:48.729
that our politics ultimately operate.
1443
01:16:49.010 --> 01:16:49.600
I totally agree.
1444
01:16:49.770 --> 01:16:51.220
Sagar, you were going to say something. I'm sorry. I
1445
01:16:51.239 --> 01:16:51.600
cut you off.
1446
01:16:51.939 --> 01:16:53.319
Oh, I honestly, I don't even remember.
1447
01:16:56.439 --> 01:16:58.359
That's a perfect place to stop.
1448
01:16:59.420 --> 01:17:02.590
Hold on, John. If I don't say that my husband,
1449
01:17:02.649 --> 01:17:04.789
Kyle Kalinsky, wants you to run for president and is
1450
01:17:04.810 --> 01:17:06.869
your biggest booster, then he's going to divorce me. So
1451
01:17:06.890 --> 01:17:07.569
I have to put that out there.
1452
01:17:07.609 --> 01:17:12.840
Oh, dear God. Don't let the divorce. I so want
1453
01:17:12.880 --> 01:17:15.520
you two to work out, but I don't want to.
1454
01:17:17.380 --> 01:17:18.880
Come on, the country needs.
1455
01:17:18.739 --> 01:17:22.779
You, John. Do you guys talk about, in your mind,
1456
01:17:23.539 --> 01:17:28.500
is there a leader that you think could arise that
1457
01:17:28.600 --> 01:17:33.439
could put behind us this weaponized environment we currently live in,
1458
01:17:34.039 --> 01:17:39.000
run on a platform of sane policy, competently executed? Do
1459
01:17:39.479 --> 01:17:43.060
you think they could do that? And is there someone
1460
01:17:43.119 --> 01:17:46.369
out there that you view as having that potential?
1461
01:17:46.859 --> 01:17:49.199
Yes, I think you could do that, John. Yes, I
1462
01:17:49.239 --> 01:17:52.739
think you could do that. Well, no, I was just
1463
01:17:52.760 --> 01:17:54.920
going to say there is an agenda for the taking
1464
01:17:55.159 --> 01:17:56.920
for someone. I don't know who that someone is.
1465
01:17:57.140 --> 01:17:59.430
No question. Certainly on the left, it's wide open.
1466
01:17:59.510 --> 01:18:02.170
There is an agenda for the taking that is about
1467
01:18:02.409 --> 01:18:05.970
economic populism. Yes, it's about pushing back against the tech oligarchs,
1468
01:18:06.350 --> 01:18:08.869
fighting back against these data centers that are taking over
1469
01:18:08.930 --> 01:18:13.460
communities and which are hated by left, right, center, doesn't matter.
1470
01:18:13.920 --> 01:18:18.159
About a foreign policy, which is about investing in America
1471
01:18:18.199 --> 01:18:22.220
rather than fighting these oligarchs horrific, immoral foreign wars and
1472
01:18:22.300 --> 01:18:26.520
backstopping a genocide. To me, there is a broad FDR-style
1473
01:18:26.600 --> 01:18:30.560
coalition that is there for the taking if you have
1474
01:18:30.920 --> 01:18:34.060
the right person who has credibility in expressing those values
1475
01:18:34.100 --> 01:18:34.720
in the right way.
1476
01:18:35.199 --> 01:18:36.460
Sagar?
1477
01:18:37.149 --> 01:18:39.659
I don't know about a specific person. I do have
1478
01:18:39.729 --> 01:18:42.810
a general kind of theory. I love to read history books,
1479
01:18:43.310 --> 01:18:45.279
is that we talked about the 60s and the 70s.
1480
01:18:46.270 --> 01:18:48.239
And one of the most unique parts of Jimmy Carter's
1481
01:18:48.319 --> 01:18:50.420
rise is that if you had gone a few years before,
1482
01:18:50.659 --> 01:18:52.939
nobody would have predicted that somebody like him could have
1483
01:18:52.960 --> 01:18:55.520
been elected. Now, let's ignore how he actually governed and
1484
01:18:55.720 --> 01:18:58.279
kind of the promise of Carter itself.
1485
01:18:58.390 --> 01:19:00.609
It was an oil shock. All right.
1486
01:19:00.670 --> 01:19:01.170
Yeah, sure.
1487
01:19:01.289 --> 01:19:05.529
It wasn't just oil. But I do think a really
1488
01:19:05.609 --> 01:19:09.119
interesting idea is is that the Trump era began with
1489
01:19:09.140 --> 01:19:13.300
the escalator. The celebrity politics era began with Obama. That
1490
01:19:13.319 --> 01:19:18.199
we've now lived with 20-so years of celebrity politics. That
1491
01:19:18.239 --> 01:19:20.840
an inevitable swing back would be to the type of
1492
01:19:20.880 --> 01:19:22.100
thing you're talking about.
1493
01:19:22.119 --> 01:19:22.720
An executive.
1494
01:19:22.960 --> 01:19:27.449
An executive, a level of seriousness, an anti-charisma, a level
1495
01:19:27.510 --> 01:19:34.250
of nerdishness, almost, in the way that Carter's sheer moral impeachability...
1496
01:19:33.899 --> 01:19:38.739
was so important to the country in a post-Watergate, post-Nixon,
1497
01:19:39.119 --> 01:19:41.239
post-LBJ environment.
1498
01:19:41.399 --> 01:19:42.979
Governor of Iowa type dude.
1499
01:19:43.119 --> 01:19:47.270
Exactly. But with the right politics. So that's the key.
1500
01:19:47.279 --> 01:19:49.470
The key to those two things is many of what
1501
01:19:49.670 --> 01:19:50.289
Crystal just said.
1502
01:19:50.369 --> 01:19:53.149
And the right ability to communicate those politics. I think
1503
01:19:53.170 --> 01:19:54.609
there might be some people that exist without that.
1504
01:19:54.729 --> 01:19:57.229
If you put those together, the country is desperate for
1505
01:19:57.630 --> 01:19:58.409
genuine leadership.
1506
01:19:58.489 --> 01:19:58.989
Desperate.
1507
01:19:59.010 --> 01:19:59.590
That's what I think.
1508
01:19:59.810 --> 01:20:01.579
So thirsty. Final question.
1509
01:20:02.979 --> 01:20:03.220
Trump?
1510
01:20:04.310 --> 01:20:08.609
Famously chose the escalator, which to me is maybe the
1511
01:20:08.689 --> 01:20:15.920
least authoritative mode of transportation there is. It's literally, it's
1512
01:20:15.979 --> 01:20:18.619
gravity and you don't even have to move your legs.
1513
01:20:18.920 --> 01:20:19.800
But it's cinematic.
1514
01:20:20.300 --> 01:20:24.529
Yeah. You just, you're heading down. What would be, for
1515
01:20:24.590 --> 01:20:27.109
our next great leader, what would be the mode of
1516
01:20:27.189 --> 01:20:33.500
conveyance that they could choose? Would it be people mover? Chariot.
1517
01:20:33.720 --> 01:20:33.920
What?
1518
01:20:34.729 --> 01:20:35.159
Anything?
1519
01:20:35.550 --> 01:20:38.090
They should announce it on Breaking Points. Breaking Points.
1520
01:20:38.170 --> 01:20:38.949
The Segway.
1521
01:20:40.289 --> 01:20:41.090
Majestic.
1522
01:20:41.569 --> 01:20:47.069
The final plug. The final damn plug. I can't thank
1523
01:20:47.100 --> 01:20:50.640
you guys enough. Crystal Ball and Sagar and Jetty of
1524
01:20:50.720 --> 01:20:52.840
Breaking Points. Please check out the show because it is,
1525
01:20:53.600 --> 01:20:59.050
and I don't say this lightly, good faith. Good faith
1526
01:20:59.119 --> 01:21:02.500
conversation that You may not agree with some of it.
1527
01:21:02.640 --> 01:21:07.390
You may have arguments, but it never feels cynical. It
1528
01:21:07.439 --> 01:21:11.529
never feels manipulated. And it never feels performative.
1529
01:21:12.109 --> 01:21:13.270
That's extremely kind, John.
1530
01:21:13.470 --> 01:21:16.350
And I really do appreciate that for the both of you.
1531
01:21:16.569 --> 01:21:18.060
It's not an easy trick to pull.
1532
01:21:18.159 --> 01:21:19.279
Thank you. Thank you very much.
1533
01:21:19.300 --> 01:21:21.100
It means a lot coming from you, John. Thank you
1534
01:21:21.140 --> 01:21:21.520
so much.
1535
01:21:21.720 --> 01:21:24.979
My last plug, my parents... adore you i love them
1536
01:21:25.100 --> 01:21:27.340
i think my mom met you in an airport once
1537
01:21:27.619 --> 01:21:29.859
and so wait for real yes she said you were
1538
01:21:29.899 --> 01:21:32.840
extremely kind to her uh so thank you and i
1539
01:21:32.880 --> 01:21:34.819
was in the front row at the rally to restore
1540
01:21:34.859 --> 01:21:39.789
sanity at age 18 while i was did it work
1541
01:21:39.810 --> 01:21:40.090
but i.
1542
01:21:40.050 --> 01:21:42.770
Was there i was there uh thank you guys both
1543
01:21:42.810 --> 01:21:53.430
for being with us yeah thank you Folks, I am
1544
01:21:53.470 --> 01:21:56.960
nothing if not a generator of ideas that may never work. Obviously,
1545
01:21:57.000 --> 01:21:58.739
we've talked a little bit on this show about the crumple,
1546
01:21:59.159 --> 01:22:01.319
which is the portable dog bed that you throw on
1547
01:22:01.340 --> 01:22:05.239
the ground that makes a different topographical shape each time
1548
01:22:05.260 --> 01:22:07.100
you do it. Think of it as the way your
1549
01:22:07.119 --> 01:22:10.930
dog likes to sit on your coat, although officially a
1550
01:22:10.970 --> 01:22:16.369
more dog-appropriate blanket-type thing hasn't come into production or fruition yet.
1551
01:22:16.770 --> 01:22:18.869
But this Shopify thing, if you've got an idea, if
1552
01:22:18.890 --> 01:22:21.579
you're somebody... that always thinks, oh, you know, it would
1553
01:22:21.619 --> 01:22:24.199
be a great business. This is the thing that makes
1554
01:22:24.270 --> 01:22:26.609
it work. It makes it ready to go from day one.
1555
01:22:26.670 --> 01:22:27.869
And I don't know how they did it. I think
1556
01:22:27.909 --> 01:22:30.810
with zeros and ones, I don't know how this works,
1557
01:22:31.710 --> 01:22:33.510
to be honest with you. I don't know how computers
1558
01:22:33.529 --> 01:22:37.430
work in general or apps work. Zeros and ones, and
1559
01:22:37.449 --> 01:22:39.390
then you feed it into a box where I guess
1560
01:22:39.569 --> 01:22:42.170
eight brilliant gerbils live and they do the rest of
1561
01:22:42.210 --> 01:22:45.090
the work. I have no idea. It's easy to design
1562
01:22:45.130 --> 01:22:47.279
your shop. It's easy to get paid. They handle the
1563
01:22:47.300 --> 01:22:50.619
checkout process. You might think to yourself, like, oh, how
1564
01:22:50.930 --> 01:22:53.439
are they going to complete their purchase? Shopify handles it.
1565
01:22:54.210 --> 01:22:56.550
Gets them to come back as repeat customers. Setup and
1566
01:22:56.590 --> 01:23:00.829
checkout are all handled. So get Shopify, for God's sakes.
1567
01:23:01.090 --> 01:23:05.250
With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business.
1568
01:23:05.630 --> 01:23:09.359
So go make it one. Start your free trial at Shopify.com
1569
01:23:09.640 --> 01:23:14.880
slash TWS. Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash TWS.
1570
01:23:19.859 --> 01:23:25.779
You can so tell Sager's parents do not agree with him,
1571
01:23:26.020 --> 01:23:34.470
but he's learned the gentle art of accepting his parents' wrongness,
1572
01:23:35.109 --> 01:23:37.430
but dealing with them in a kind way. Like, I
1573
01:23:37.489 --> 01:23:39.069
can't tell you how many times he said to me, like,
1574
01:23:40.409 --> 01:23:43.720
I see how you got there. Well, certainly I can
1575
01:23:43.880 --> 01:23:47.819
understand that. Why you might think that. But like that
1576
01:23:47.899 --> 01:23:51.399
is a guy trying to get through the weekend he
1577
01:23:51.470 --> 01:23:52.430
is spending at home.
1578
01:23:52.439 --> 01:23:56.409
I'm going to steal some of those like rhetorical flourishes.
1579
01:23:56.609 --> 01:23:59.409
Yeah, that's he has the patience. First of all, it
1580
01:23:59.430 --> 01:24:00.810
was saying like just I.
1581
01:24:00.989 --> 01:24:01.590
Fantastic.
1582
01:24:02.640 --> 01:24:05.479
Really admirable what he does. What they both do, but
1583
01:24:05.510 --> 01:24:07.310
what he did in this conversation, because it was a
1584
01:24:07.329 --> 01:24:08.189
bit of two-on-one.
1585
01:24:08.310 --> 01:24:11.609
So shout out to Sagar. I did feel bad on that.
1586
01:24:11.750 --> 01:24:13.630
There was a certain point. But when he would say, like,
1587
01:24:13.710 --> 01:24:14.810
it's not cynical, and I'd be.
1588
01:24:14.789 --> 01:24:16.449
Like, come on!
1589
01:24:16.529 --> 01:24:17.609
God! Sagar!
1590
01:24:17.659 --> 01:24:18.659
Help yourself, yeah.
1591
01:24:18.920 --> 01:24:20.020
How can it not be cynical?
1592
01:24:20.840 --> 01:24:23.979
When he said, they love how much it drives you crazy,
1593
01:24:24.840 --> 01:24:28.279
that really hit me. Because I was like, so that's
1594
01:24:28.319 --> 01:24:31.189
why my family behaves this way in the group chat.
1595
01:24:31.909 --> 01:24:32.470
Really?
1596
01:24:32.789 --> 01:24:35.949
Last week, I left the group chat because the memes, the,
1597
01:24:35.970 --> 01:24:38.069
you know, the Fauci shit. Oh, my God. It just
1598
01:24:38.090 --> 01:24:41.189
like surged. And I was like, I'm out. I can't.
1599
01:24:41.380 --> 01:24:41.600
Right.
1600
01:24:41.909 --> 01:24:44.340
I mean, I've highly suspected for years that this was
1601
01:24:44.399 --> 01:24:46.500
all just to own the libs. And just for that
1602
01:24:46.520 --> 01:24:49.899
to be confirmed in that moment was gratifying, but also
1603
01:24:49.939 --> 01:24:52.359
really upsetting. Right.
1604
01:24:52.600 --> 01:24:56.579
But it's also in some ways it's verified my decision
1605
01:24:56.960 --> 01:25:01.439
to never join group chats. Oh, yeah. I do not have.
1606
01:25:01.989 --> 01:25:05.289
There are no long straight, the largest group chat I
1607
01:25:05.329 --> 01:25:08.449
have is literally with the guys that I play music with.
1608
01:25:08.949 --> 01:25:09.289
Okay.
1609
01:25:09.310 --> 01:25:10.210
That's a reasonable number.
1610
01:25:10.229 --> 01:25:14.050
There's four of us. Yeah. And the only discussions are,
1611
01:25:14.390 --> 01:25:16.430
the discussions are always like Tuesday night.
1612
01:25:17.649 --> 01:25:18.800
And then it's a bunch of thumbs ups.
1613
01:25:19.229 --> 01:25:23.119
What about Wednesday? Right. Can't, you know, it's that there's
1614
01:25:23.159 --> 01:25:26.359
not a lot of, you know, fuck COVID, like none
1615
01:25:26.380 --> 01:25:26.939
of that stuff.
1616
01:25:27.119 --> 01:25:28.039
I see where you're coming from.
1617
01:25:28.279 --> 01:25:32.279
That's exactly right. Brittany, what do we got on this,
1618
01:25:32.460 --> 01:25:33.800
our final episode of the summer?
1619
01:25:34.319 --> 01:25:37.399
I know, how sad. Okay, John, do you think the
1620
01:25:37.439 --> 01:25:39.649
White House press corps is cool with taking a bullet
1621
01:25:39.729 --> 01:25:41.449
or a surface-to-air missile for Trump?
1622
01:25:41.909 --> 01:25:47.489
Absolutely. Of course, they would say to themselves, if we
1623
01:25:47.550 --> 01:25:52.670
can be the decoy, if sir, if killing us makes
1624
01:25:52.850 --> 01:25:56.930
you safe- However that would be, do you want one
1625
01:25:56.949 --> 01:25:59.210
of us to put on the Trump wig? Do you
1626
01:25:59.250 --> 01:26:01.819
want us to put on the red tie and do that?
1627
01:26:02.520 --> 01:26:07.159
I'll jump in front of the catering cart myself, sir.
1628
01:26:07.560 --> 01:26:09.779
Whatever it is you want us to do, sir, do
1629
01:26:09.800 --> 01:26:12.500
you want us to taste your food to make sure
1630
01:26:12.539 --> 01:26:16.159
that it is in no way contaminated? Although now with
1631
01:26:16.220 --> 01:26:20.970
Kennedy running HHS, you don't know if it's contaminated because
1632
01:26:21.010 --> 01:26:24.949
of a foreign act of, assassination, or there's just diarrhea
1633
01:26:24.989 --> 01:26:26.989
parasites and everything.
1634
01:26:27.090 --> 01:26:28.720
Yeah, that was- Common misconception.
1635
01:26:28.850 --> 01:26:31.279
That was a wild story. Although, Kayla Collins, again, because
1636
01:26:31.319 --> 01:26:33.600
Kayla Collins, she does her research, she says, you know,
1637
01:26:33.619 --> 01:26:39.060
that is not unprecedented that a president has had to
1638
01:26:39.220 --> 01:26:43.159
change plans based on a certain threat. And it wasn't
1639
01:26:43.220 --> 01:26:47.319
until afterwards that it was explained- to the people who
1640
01:26:47.380 --> 01:26:52.449
remained on the targeted conveyance. Hey, by the way, just
1641
01:26:52.470 --> 01:26:54.529
wanted to let you guys know now that we're here safely,
1642
01:26:55.909 --> 01:26:58.210
there were a lot of lasers being pointed and we
1643
01:26:58.250 --> 01:26:59.649
weren't sure which one was.
1644
01:27:00.689 --> 01:27:04.199
It's so fucking crazy. Also the irony of it being
1645
01:27:04.239 --> 01:27:05.500
a catering truck.
1646
01:27:05.920 --> 01:27:08.300
It's just like what's always in the movies too. They're like,
1647
01:27:08.340 --> 01:27:09.539
how do we get you out of here? And then
1648
01:27:09.560 --> 01:27:11.500
there's like a little catering cart and you're like, oh,
1649
01:27:11.560 --> 01:27:12.579
it's perfect.
1650
01:27:12.899 --> 01:27:15.069
Here's the question. did he have to put on the
1651
01:27:15.130 --> 01:27:16.310
cater waiter outfit?
1652
01:27:17.329 --> 01:27:19.529
He had a disguise. He dressed as a bellhop.
1653
01:27:20.649 --> 01:27:22.529
Actually, here's what they did. They brought him in on
1654
01:27:22.609 --> 01:27:25.199
the big table and it had the little cloche on it.
1655
01:27:25.470 --> 01:27:27.409
And then they pulled it in. They got the table
1656
01:27:27.729 --> 01:27:29.869
to the safe location and then they lifted the cloche.
1657
01:27:30.170 --> 01:27:32.220
Are you okay now, Mr. President? And then put it
1658
01:27:32.229 --> 01:27:32.800
back down.
1659
01:27:33.189 --> 01:27:35.619
It's just such a screwball comedy. It's perfect.
1660
01:27:35.720 --> 01:27:37.920
Isn't it? It's very, it's very Clouseau.
1661
01:27:38.409 --> 01:27:42.189
I also love him saying, if I go, you go afterwards.
1662
01:27:42.369 --> 01:27:44.989
And it's like, actually, not the case.
1663
01:27:45.090 --> 01:27:48.130
Actually, that was if they go, they go.
1664
01:27:48.750 --> 01:27:51.340
If I go, I go, you say.
1665
01:27:51.439 --> 01:27:54.479
Right. If I go, I go, and you don't go.
1666
01:27:55.300 --> 01:27:56.220
You go, bye-bye.
1667
01:27:56.239 --> 01:28:00.199
Yeah, you go, bye-bye. That's for sure. What else they got?
1668
01:28:00.659 --> 01:28:04.399
All right. John, whose weave is better, Trump or Fetterman?
1669
01:28:05.560 --> 01:28:11.359
Oh, whose weaves? Well, we've. Well, yeah, I was going
1670
01:28:11.380 --> 01:28:15.439
to say Fetterman. No, I mean, Fetterman, I think, gave
1671
01:28:15.539 --> 01:28:20.090
up on whatever hairstyle. Trump, at least, is experimenting. That's
1672
01:28:20.149 --> 01:28:22.670
kind of what I dig about him. Like with Trump,
1673
01:28:22.970 --> 01:28:25.050
you literally could imagine like, where was he this morning?
1674
01:28:25.170 --> 01:28:27.649
And somebody be like, I think the beauty parlor. Like
1675
01:28:27.989 --> 01:28:30.630
he's because he's got a hairdo now. That's like like
1676
01:28:30.670 --> 01:28:33.789
when my you know, when I was younger, all the
1677
01:28:33.909 --> 01:28:37.289
old ladies would go to this guy, Joe. It was
1678
01:28:37.310 --> 01:28:39.529
the beauty parlor. And Joe would be at the beauty
1679
01:28:39.569 --> 01:28:41.729
parlor and he would take care of the ladies. And
1680
01:28:41.869 --> 01:28:45.560
he's got that. I imagine Trump sitting under that little
1681
01:28:45.640 --> 01:28:48.689
dome after getting his thing up and just coming out
1682
01:28:48.720 --> 01:28:52.380
and going like, oh my God, wait till I play bridge.
1683
01:28:56.119 --> 01:28:59.420
Trump is the master of the weave because he's in
1684
01:28:59.460 --> 01:29:03.039
control of it. Fetterman, unfortunately, I think, look, to be
1685
01:29:03.100 --> 01:29:06.100
fair to him, like he had a stroke. I do
1686
01:29:06.159 --> 01:29:09.760
think that creates processing issues. I don't think it's a
1687
01:29:10.399 --> 01:29:14.470
great environment for him in long form necessarily. I don't
1688
01:29:14.510 --> 01:29:16.170
want to lay all of it on that because I
1689
01:29:16.229 --> 01:29:17.949
don't think all of it should be laid on that.
1690
01:29:18.390 --> 01:29:25.850
But I definitely think he may have a more thoughtful
1691
01:29:25.909 --> 01:29:29.850
mode of communicating that we are not necessarily privy to.
1692
01:29:30.380 --> 01:29:33.239
If that would be... Is that the nicest way.
1693
01:29:33.159 --> 01:29:33.619
To say it?
1694
01:29:34.039 --> 01:29:35.470
I would say it's too generous.
1695
01:29:35.810 --> 01:29:41.609
I'm not suggesting that the opinions should not be criticized
1696
01:29:42.449 --> 01:29:47.470
and looked at with astonishment, because I do think they
1697
01:29:47.510 --> 01:29:50.770
are his real opinions. I just think... I don't know
1698
01:29:50.829 --> 01:29:54.739
if that was necessarily his best at defending them. That's all.
1699
01:29:55.319 --> 01:29:55.939
That's all I'm saying.
1700
01:29:55.960 --> 01:29:58.300
I haven't seen better, and I did look around quite
1701
01:29:58.340 --> 01:29:58.680
a bit.
1702
01:29:58.960 --> 01:29:59.180
So.
1703
01:30:01.260 --> 01:30:04.479
I haven't seen him articulate the point better than he did.
1704
01:30:05.619 --> 01:30:08.409
I actually think he's taking, I think Fetterman is taking
1705
01:30:08.569 --> 01:30:10.930
like some of Trump's playbook where it's like when he's
1706
01:30:10.970 --> 01:30:14.109
talking to some of the media, just like completely throwing
1707
01:30:14.170 --> 01:30:16.649
lobs back. Like when, I think it was Dropsite, like
1708
01:30:16.770 --> 01:30:19.390
caught him in the hallway and was asking him questions
1709
01:30:19.449 --> 01:30:21.449
about Israel. And he was like, who do you work for?
1710
01:30:21.489 --> 01:30:23.390
Like that's not a real organization.
1711
01:30:24.069 --> 01:30:26.149
You know what? Yeah. I'm giving him too much credit.
1712
01:30:27.020 --> 01:30:27.569
I'm probably.
1713
01:30:28.069 --> 01:30:31.729
But I think that's like a, He's, you know, copying
1714
01:30:31.810 --> 01:30:33.829
Trump a little bit. Like I see there's some tendencies there,
1715
01:30:33.850 --> 01:30:34.229
but yeah.
1716
01:30:35.109 --> 01:30:38.489
I think it's because in the conversation, like I did
1717
01:30:38.529 --> 01:30:42.020
get to a place where I felt bad. I know that's,
1718
01:30:42.039 --> 01:30:47.420
he's a senator. There's no amount of having that, you know,
1719
01:30:47.579 --> 01:30:53.470
but having diminished ability, but having power not be diminished,
1720
01:30:53.810 --> 01:30:56.810
that's a scary place for people to be. But it's
1721
01:30:56.850 --> 01:31:00.479
hard not to, on a human level, have a conversation
1722
01:31:00.539 --> 01:31:05.119
at that length with somebody in that situation where you
1723
01:31:05.189 --> 01:31:09.930
don't go like, oh, I, it's like, I have to not,
1724
01:31:10.229 --> 01:31:12.449
let me just not be. Yeah.
1725
01:31:13.210 --> 01:31:14.649
I think that you have to, yeah. I think it's
1726
01:31:14.670 --> 01:31:16.949
really good to like hold space for that kind of empathy.
1727
01:31:17.989 --> 01:31:21.069
But I don't. I've never used, I've never heard hold
1728
01:31:21.090 --> 01:31:24.970
space used before in a non- Um.
1729
01:31:25.409 --> 01:31:28.869
But I don't, I don't know that it's warranted necessarily.
1730
01:31:28.989 --> 01:31:32.350
I agree. And, and the reason why it's not warranted
1731
01:31:32.810 --> 01:31:36.310
is the amount of power that the individual wields in
1732
01:31:36.350 --> 01:31:40.840
the same way for, uh, Mitch McConnell, where you can
1733
01:31:40.880 --> 01:31:45.319
go like, wow, that must suck to be infirmed to
1734
01:31:45.340 --> 01:31:49.550
the point where you literally can't be filmed saying you're okay.
1735
01:31:50.590 --> 01:31:54.739
And then also think to yourself, Fuck that guy for
1736
01:31:54.800 --> 01:31:56.039
still having that much power.
1737
01:31:56.039 --> 01:31:58.039
100%.
1738
01:31:58.140 --> 01:32:01.840
I feel better. Thank you for helping me work through this.
1739
01:32:02.100 --> 01:32:06.359
I was feeling guilty. You shouldn't. I can't think that
1740
01:32:06.399 --> 01:32:09.130
I was feeling a bit guilty. That's all. No. All right.
1741
01:32:09.310 --> 01:32:09.770
What's final?
1742
01:32:10.069 --> 01:32:13.770
Resolved. Last one. John, please settle this for me and
1743
01:32:13.810 --> 01:32:14.130
my wife.
1744
01:32:14.390 --> 01:32:16.689
Done. I can do that. No problem.
1745
01:32:17.869 --> 01:32:20.949
McDonald's fries or Burger King onion rings?
1746
01:32:22.010 --> 01:32:28.630
McDonald's fries. Yeah. Why would anybody even... Yeah. Why would
1747
01:32:28.649 --> 01:32:32.640
someone throw that even into the... The Burger King onion
1748
01:32:32.680 --> 01:32:35.020
ring is not... I don't believe is in the same
1749
01:32:35.079 --> 01:32:43.270
weight class. That's like Manchester City or somebody... The Galaxy.
1750
01:32:44.050 --> 01:32:44.750
It's not even.
1751
01:32:45.489 --> 01:32:47.729
They can do a friendly every now and again, but
1752
01:32:47.750 --> 01:32:48.930
they shouldn't be competing.
1753
01:32:49.029 --> 01:32:52.670
Thank you, Jillian. A friendly. They can play. And you
1754
01:32:52.689 --> 01:32:55.529
know what? We'll even pretend that we're going to referee it.
1755
01:32:57.350 --> 01:33:00.560
But we all know what the real situation is. Now,
1756
01:33:02.060 --> 01:33:07.920
the McDonald's fry, I will say this. My view on
1757
01:33:07.960 --> 01:33:14.460
the size of McDonald's fry has changed over the years since.
1758
01:33:14.890 --> 01:33:17.470
In the old days, if you would supersize a fry
1759
01:33:17.489 --> 01:33:22.270
or get me the largest container of fries that they
1760
01:33:22.310 --> 01:33:25.789
will allow me to take out of the restaurant. Do
1761
01:33:25.829 --> 01:33:29.380
you have, I'm sorry, do you have bucket-o-fry? May I
1762
01:33:29.439 --> 01:33:33.159
have a bucket? How about this? I'll hold my arms
1763
01:33:33.199 --> 01:33:37.260
like this and you load it with fry. And I
1764
01:33:37.279 --> 01:33:39.439
will walk out with, oh, you know what I'll have?
1765
01:33:39.680 --> 01:33:44.890
The sack-o-fries. Like a little Santa sack. Filled with fries.
1766
01:33:47.029 --> 01:33:51.590
As I have gotten older, I can actually feel the
1767
01:33:51.670 --> 01:33:56.010
amount of salt enter my body and slowly begin to
1768
01:33:56.109 --> 01:34:02.550
change the chemical makeup of what I'm experiencing. And I
1769
01:34:02.670 --> 01:34:04.939
can't do it. Oh, that sucks.
1770
01:34:05.020 --> 01:34:06.180
Just to know that that's coming.
1771
01:34:06.810 --> 01:34:09.800
Yeah. Nothing hits like a medium french fry and a
1772
01:34:09.840 --> 01:34:10.600
medium Diet.
1773
01:34:10.420 --> 01:34:13.420
Coke, though. Oh, but now you say medium french fry.
1774
01:34:13.850 --> 01:34:17.430
That is a respectable amount of fry. But the large fry,
1775
01:34:18.010 --> 01:34:21.109
three quarters of the way through, I think to myself,
1776
01:34:21.569 --> 01:34:24.609
I believe I'm having a pulmonary embolism.
1777
01:34:25.069 --> 01:34:28.949
I'll eat a bucket of fries for the both of us, John.
1778
01:34:29.130 --> 01:34:30.630
And I miss it. You know what I've taken to
1779
01:34:30.689 --> 01:34:36.670
doing at times? You get the fries and you do this. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1780
01:34:36.949 --> 01:34:38.140
I get the fries and I do this.
1781
01:34:38.149 --> 01:34:44.340
I have to clear out. whatever, whatever they put on.
1782
01:34:44.359 --> 01:34:44.680
That's dark.
1783
01:34:45.039 --> 01:34:47.199
Wait, have you had a Burger King onion ring?
1784
01:34:48.310 --> 01:34:52.350
Oh, sure. Okay. Oh, listen, I've traveled. Is that what
1785
01:34:52.369 --> 01:34:53.010
you're asking me?
1786
01:34:53.229 --> 01:34:54.989
Has he traveled the world? Of course he has.
1787
01:34:55.130 --> 01:34:57.710
Am I a bon vivant? Am I a sophisticate? Of
1788
01:34:57.770 --> 01:35:00.640
course I've had the, and I've, by the way, I've
1789
01:35:00.699 --> 01:35:04.840
even had when they try shit, like let's do cheesy tots.
1790
01:35:05.380 --> 01:35:09.399
Like when they, they'll introduce new fried items or things
1791
01:35:09.439 --> 01:35:10.539
like that. I'll try them all.
1792
01:35:10.850 --> 01:35:11.489
Why not?
1793
01:35:11.630 --> 01:35:17.600
I'll try the Cinnabon with the little frosting in the
1794
01:35:17.659 --> 01:35:18.149
center of it.
1795
01:35:18.180 --> 01:35:18.880
Yeah, fuck yeah.
1796
01:35:19.180 --> 01:35:22.119
Fucking Taco Bell tried to throw out a chocolate empanada
1797
01:35:22.539 --> 01:35:23.199
for a little while.
1798
01:35:23.579 --> 01:35:25.199
Yeah, sort of like a Choco Taco.
1799
01:35:25.760 --> 01:35:26.380
Thank you, Julie.
1800
01:35:26.890 --> 01:35:29.710
I always wondered who those advertisements worked on.
1801
01:35:30.109 --> 01:35:31.590
You're looking at him.
1802
01:35:31.609 --> 01:35:37.750
Me? I'll try them all. But I am always searching
1803
01:35:37.850 --> 01:35:41.829
for the perfection of In my old days when I
1804
01:35:41.909 --> 01:35:48.119
ate bread meat, the McDonald's cheeseburger, a large fry, Coke,
1805
01:35:49.000 --> 01:35:59.649
and an apple pie. That was the quintessential American lab made.
1806
01:35:59.859 --> 01:36:03.250
I'm sure it was made in the same lab where
1807
01:36:03.270 --> 01:36:06.689
you made creepy crawlies, where you poured the stuff into
1808
01:36:06.729 --> 01:36:08.810
the thing and then you heated it up and out
1809
01:36:08.869 --> 01:36:11.359
came a worm. I'm sure it was the same lab.
1810
01:36:11.920 --> 01:36:17.750
The 60s and 70s were nothing if not monosodium glutamate
1811
01:36:17.770 --> 01:36:19.010
and whatever else they could throw in there.
1812
01:36:20.510 --> 01:36:21.409
They figured it out.
1813
01:36:22.069 --> 01:36:26.050
So good. All right. Well, that's all for us. And
1814
01:36:26.090 --> 01:36:29.180
this is it. The show, we are done until, do
1815
01:36:29.199 --> 01:36:30.779
you know when the next one is? September?
1816
01:36:30.960 --> 01:36:31.140
Yes.
1817
01:36:31.159 --> 01:36:32.739
September 10th. Thursday.
1818
01:36:32.779 --> 01:36:34.180
We'll be out on a Thursday that week.
1819
01:36:34.260 --> 01:36:35.680
Switching it up.
1820
01:36:35.819 --> 01:36:39.020
We're switching it up September 10th. To all the people
1821
01:36:39.060 --> 01:36:41.970
that have been listening, throughout the year. Thank you all
1822
01:36:42.010 --> 01:36:45.800
so much for doing so. We're excited to come back
1823
01:36:45.850 --> 01:36:53.479
in September and infuriate you even further. As always, we
1824
01:36:53.520 --> 01:36:57.039
could not do it without our exceptional team. And we
1825
01:36:57.079 --> 01:37:00.189
have added a new team member, I would like to say.
1826
01:37:00.930 --> 01:37:03.350
A new associate producer by the name of Rebecca Rotenberg.
1827
01:37:03.390 --> 01:37:06.789
She'll be joining us, doing a wonderful job. But our producer,
1828
01:37:06.829 --> 01:37:10.010
Brittany Mamedovic, our producer, Jillian Spierk, Our video editor and engineer,
1829
01:37:10.069 --> 01:37:15.149
Rob Vitolo, who made a headroom call today that I
1830
01:37:15.189 --> 01:37:16.989
thought was well worth it. I got a little lax
1831
01:37:18.350 --> 01:37:21.069
and I came in hot with a shit ton of headroom.
1832
01:37:22.079 --> 01:37:25.079
And Rob said, not on my watch, my friend. Not
1833
01:37:25.100 --> 01:37:28.680
going to happen. Audio editor and engineer, Nicole Boyce. Associate producer,
1834
01:37:28.720 --> 01:37:31.500
Rebecca Rodenberg, as we mentioned earlier. And our executive producers,
1835
01:37:31.520 --> 01:37:33.699
Chris McShane and Katie Gray. Thank you guys so much.
1836
01:37:33.779 --> 01:37:43.449
And we shall see you in September. The weekly show
1837
01:37:43.470 --> 01:37:46.699
with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced
1838
01:37:46.739 --> 01:38:03.140
by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. Paramount Podcasts.