When Tolerance Failed: Can Kerr Mot Ali Ever Return Home?

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Hello, welcome to the Victim Podcast.
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In today's edition, we will bring you an interesting conversation regarding Cape Mot Ali.
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This is a community that has existed quite a long time, long before colonialism, because the community was established in 1777 by Maud Harley, one of our great grandparents, whom the village is named after, and that is why the village is called K Mot Ali.
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So Kir, as in Wolof, implies one compound.
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So you know, everything begins from one, the blade started from one compound and that's why it is called that name.
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Our guest on the program is Keba Seka of Kir Mot Ali.
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It could be recalled, in 2002, the former president Yaya Jame and his government unlawfully violated the rights of the religious Sikhs in the Central River region of the Gambia.
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After they were forced, Sikh Kheba Sehkar had a chit-chat with Iseru Jami to unravel some of the things that happened.
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Iseru asked Kheba why was Ndigal arrested?
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The former IGP of the Gambia Landin Tatinbaji?
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On the instruction of Jami.
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He was arrested when they came because of the misconceptions, disinformation and perception that they have formulated against the people of Ndigal and Ndigal himself.
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They were made to believe that they could not arrest Ndigal in the daytime, so therefore they would have to come night and take him.
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Among the allegations of the arrest of Ndigal, he was alleged to may counterfeit monies.
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The other allegation is that they said Ndigal has a machine that may counterfeit currency and that is what enabled him to accommodate the live followers.
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And also allow his followers to sell drugs in the country his followers to sell drugs in the country, inform the community, and that is why we are also relying on those things as the source and the official source of his arrest in 2002.
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After he was arrested in 2002, how many days has Ndigal spent in detention?
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So he was detained in Farafi in the following Thursday, 16th October 2002.
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He was taken to police headquarters in Banju.
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He was detained there for less than a week.
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He was taken to police headquarters in Banju.
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He was detained there for less than a week after he was taken to NIA.
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Altogether, between the NIA and the police headquarters, he was detained for 21 days.
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But was that the only time?
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Digal was arrested in the country After two weeks?
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he was again re-arrested and taken to Djen Djen Bure, this time for eight days one week With this and a lot more you will hear in the next 35 minutes.
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The Victim Podcast creator, isaac Jame, had an interview with Keba Sek.
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Welcome back to the Victim Podcast.
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In case you are listening to the Victim Podcast for the first time, welcome on board.
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The objective of the Victim Podcast is to raise awareness about the transitional justice beyond the work of the TRRC and highlights the importance of implementing the recommendations of the TRRC report.
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This podcast will create a platform for victims, civil society organizations and NGOs to ensure co-raised awareness of non-recurrence of human rights violations, and the Never Again campaign is achieved in the form of a podcast.
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Now let's go straight to the conversation and hear from Aisatou Jame with Keba Seker of Kermode Ali.
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Hello everyone, welcome back to the Victim's Podcast.
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Today in the studio I have a very special guest, mr Kepa Seker, from the community of Kermode Ali.
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He's going to speak on, really, the violation that occurred in his community, kermode Ali, and also what his expectations are regarding the implementation of the government's white paper on recommendations that were made on the issue of Kermode Ali.
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Welcome on the show, kepa Seker.
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Thank you very much, aisha.
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Thank you for having me.
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It's a pleasure to share my story on behalf of the people of Kermode Ali.
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But before dwelling into our expectation, I first want to lay the foundation for better understanding of the violation that occurred in Kermode Alley, how it occurred and perhaps why it occurred.
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Colonialism, because the community was established in 1777 by Maud Harley, one of our great-grandparents, whom the village is named after, and that is why the village is called Kir Maud Harley.
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So Kir, as in Wolof, implies one compound.
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So you know, everything begins from one.
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The village started from one compound and that's why it is called that name.
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So this is a blade that has great attachment to religious and also traditional values as well as spiritual.
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So the founder and all the leaders that came subsequently were all religious leaders and spiritual leaders, spiritual leaders in the context of our Senegambia is Seri Marabu, so they have been leading in teaching the Quran and also practicing the Marabu way of life.
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So that is how the community happened and it has been inhabited by generation after generation, all tracing lineage from the founder, maud Halim.
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At some point also other surnames began to join in the village, but essentially from the beginning the entire community had been second and that is why, until today, the majority of the inhabitants of Kermode Harley are second.
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So that is how it happened.
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The community used to have very good relationships with governments.
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For example, during the jawra time the community used to have very good relationship with jawra and every year when jawra is making meeting, the people talk you would have meeting at jaw ando and Mjao.
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And Kermode Alley is very close, so the people of Kermode Alley will usually go there.
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Often times also, the Mjao government would also send a delegation led by the 10th district chief, omar Boto Sise, to go to the community leaders in Kermode Alley and seek for their spiritual values.
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That has been the relationship with the government of Jawahara and the community of Kermode Ali, meaning we used to have a very good relationship but we still have been very attached to our values, our religious values and also our spiritual values.
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So that continued until Jammeh.
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When Jammeh came to power, on numerous occasions he would send delegation to Indigal to seek for blessing and also seek for his support.
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There are times we can see that Yankubo Ture, former minister during the junta time, yankubo Ture once led a delegation to Kermotale.
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We have evidence of that, pictures and recordings of that visit.
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There was also another moment Edward Singate was also sent to Indigal to seek for blessing.
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That was done by Jami.
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And there was also another moment Mejo Momodu Bojang led a delegation to Kermode Ale.
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These were people that were sent to Indigal seeking spiritual values, that were sent to Ndigal seeking spiritual values.
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That actually demonstrated that Ndigal and his community had a good relationship with Jami in his early days.
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That continued.
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At some point during election time he would send politicians and when politicians came they would be led by the district chief.
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Then it was Akunjao Umar Bodo Sisi who would come to Kermodeale and seek for support for political, for election time, especially during National Assembly member, the deputy, current deputy Govono of CRR, then the MP for Upper Salem.
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On numerous occasions, when elections come, jami and the APR will come to Kermode Alley and seek support from Nigel and his followers.
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That has been the good relationship that continued.
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That did not only start from Jamia but it is something that we also inherited from our parents and grandparents in Kermode Halle, who believe that with government you have to accept what God has given them but they equally have to accept the spiritual gift that also God has given them.
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So that is the attachment we have and that is the belief we still go by and we still be fit.
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So that is what NIGL continued.
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But around 2001, towards 2002, nigl gradually shifted into what is called hakeka practice, into what is called haqiqah practice, which is some kind of different from the mainstream practice of five daily prayers in the Muslim community, despite in Islam there is haqiqah path, but there is also salihah path which involves the five observation of the five daily prayer of which we we believe until today.
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We believe in it until, but we do not practice it as usual.
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And that practice of half and half we observe the five daily prayer is new in the Muridiyahzim in that line, so, being Bifal, they are practicing Haqq in the Islamic community.
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So there is Sharia, there is Haqq.
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Even the well knowledgeable Islamic scholars know that there is Haqqa in Islam.
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So believing in Haqqa doesn't mean that all the way took you away from Muslims.
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So we believe in the oneness of Allah, we believe in the last prophet and all the prophets.
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We believe that Muhammad Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam is the last prophet.
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We also believe that the amount of books, more than 100 books, the most authentic book is the Holy Quran and that is the book for all of us.
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So in a sense, all the pillars of Islam, we believe in it.
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But also Haqqa is not away from Islam, it's not out of Islam, it's also a part within Islam.
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Only those that are not knowledgeable or very deep in Islam would contest that it doesn't exist.
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So, that said, that is the source of the shifting from what is mainly known the five daily prayers into haqqiyah practice is what brought the spring relationship that eventually happened between the community of Ndiga and the former government of Yahya Jamil.
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So as time went by, between 2001, 2002, people who under-organized the practice, people who disassociate, who did not agree, continued to formulate misinformation and misconception around Ndiaye and his people, just to build up hatred and also making people to be much distant away from us and also denying peace and hostility, denying peace and promote hostility in the environment.
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And that was actually what had happened.
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So around 2002, not around 2002, but exactly in 2002, 15 October, ndigal was arrested.
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He was arrested by the former IGP of the Gambia, landin Tatinbaji, on the instruction of Jami.
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He was arrested when they came Because of the misconception, disinformation and perception that they have formulated against the people of Ndigal and Ndigal himself.
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They were made to believe that they could not arrest Ndigal in the daytime, so therefore they would have to come at night and pick him.
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If not, ndigal and his followers are bandits, they are criminals and they would do everything.
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So that is why the troops that came to arrest him came at night.
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When they came, they surrounded the whole community, including the digger's own compound, and break the door, got into, arrested him and took him to Farfenye, detained him at Farfenye police station on that 15th of October 2002.
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So after that, while some took him to Farvanya, others were still in the village among the two I met.
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So the leaders that took him to Farvanya returned in the same night and conducted a site in the entire community, including Degas' own private compound and residence.
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So they searched everywhere.
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After they searched everywhere, they didn't see anything.
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Then they called Tatin Bajie, called the flowers that were in Ndika's compound and those that were also standing by, and then it was during that moment that Tatin Bajie revealed to the flowers why the soldiers, the troops, were there and what happened and why they did what they did.
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And it was during that meeting that I informed the community that we received allegations that Ndigan amassed huge weapons with the intention to use his life force to overthrow the government of Yahya Jamil.
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The other allegation is that they said Ndigan has a machine that may counterfeit currency and that is what enable him to accommodate the live followers, the live people he has believing in him, following him in his heart, as a practice, is only because he has counterfeit money, that false money that he's using, and that is what why, why people are following.
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The third one is that there's a leg, tatin Baji said Niggle is a leg to have criminals that engage in drug dealings and Niggle himself is his chief drug dealer.
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So these were the three main allegations that Tatin Baji, who effected the arrest, informed the community, and that is why we are also relying on those things as the source and the official source of his arrest in 2002.
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So he was detained in Far Afrin the following Thursday, 16th October 2002.
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He was taken to police headquarters in Banju.
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He was detained there for less than a week after he was taken to NIA.
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Altogether, between the NIA and the police headquarters, he was detained for 21 days.
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In the period, the government was looking for evidence in order to prosecute him, but there was no evidence to be able to prosecute Nigel on the allegations that they levied against him, which I said originated from hatred, perception, misconception and also misinformation.
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So, despite all that, there was no evidence.
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But yet the government of Jamaica did not want to release him to go.
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They maintained him in communicado.
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As a result, we sought the services of a legal practitioner, antuman AB Gaye, to file a motion for the release of Ndigal, so that Ndigal could be released.
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So Antuman took the matter to court, to the Supreme Court, and by that he was discharged, acquitted and discharged.
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No he was discharged because there was no charge against him for him to be acquitted.
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He was discharged.
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What Antrimansort was for the government of Uganda to release him if they cannot prosecute him?
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And the court also ordered that he be released and that was how Ndigal was released.
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When he was released he went back home.
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After two weeks he was again re-arrested and taken to Janjambure, this time for eight days, one week Now.
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So you could see that in his first arrest in October 2002, he was detained for 21 days, more than 72 hours limit of the law at the time to date.
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In the same year also, when he was detained at Djanjambore, he was again detained for more than 72 hours limit of the law.
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In 2005, ndigel again came to Saraconda to visit his flowers.
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Here, large number of his flowers and well-wishers would come to greet him in Deepakunda where, in Deepakunda, he was hosted by UNISA.
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He was at UNISA's own compound, so people of his flowers and also well-wishers would come and greet him.
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So all that coming to greet him, the live crowd that have been coming on daily basis to greet him.
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The police again on 5th September 2005 arrested him, detained him at Seracunda police station.
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The arrest, the reason of the arrest was that he's in the community and there were many people coming to greet him and he doesn't have permit for that.
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So he was arrested for not having permit for people to come to greet him or for him to come to visit his talabas here.
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People coming to greet him he needs to get a permit for that and the guy would tell them that I didn't know that I was needs to get a permit for that and they will tell them that I didn't know that I was supposed to get a permit, otherwise I would.
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I would tell my followers here before coming to look out for permit, and that is why until today, most of our events, any event we have, we will seek permit from the police.
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Yes, any event we have, you see, permit from the police.
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Yes, any event we have, we will seek permit from the police.
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That is how the Ndigo community used to have good relationship with government and, as I explained, that is what led to the gradual violation that had happened and what strained the relationship, beginning from legal safety, gradually, from the five daily prayers that most people know into haka practice.
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But I always say being different, being different must not also deny us peace, because we cannot live in a society of uniqueness, we cannot be unique in a society we live in the same of uniqueness.
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We cannot be unique in a society we live in the same family.
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Some are tall, some are short, some are fair, some are fat, some are fair, some are dark, some are fat, some are thin.
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Yet we accumulate each order in the same community.
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We live peacefully in the community and there is no region in this community, in this society of the Gambia, where you can find everybody of the Gambia, where you can find everybody practicing the same thing, where you find everybody doing the same thing.
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We must accept diversity, but as a country.
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If we want to move forward, we want to develop, we must give peace a chance.
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Giving peace a chance, being tolerant, because God, who creates everybody, is the most tolerant, because he could have destroyed anything that he doesn't like, and the difference is existing.
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He could have eliminated it.
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He didn't.
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Then God is more tolerant than anybody else.
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Why not us humans to be tolerant?
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And that is what we can do to have peace, that what we can do to have a good legacy that will not harm us when we die, and that is also the guarantee for a sustainable development for our future and the children yet unborn.
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So this is what happened the gradual, the background of Kermode Ali, how the people of Kermode Ali are attached to their religious values and spiritual values, and the relationship the community its leaders used to have with governments, both Jawara and Jami, and what led to the gradual violation that occurred.
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What led to this strained relationship leading to the violation?
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Thank you very much, Yusufa.
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Keba sorry for that brief overview of what happened to your community in Kebamon Ali, of what happened to your community in Kilmore Valley.
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So we've seen, during the TRC, the community of Kilmore Valley came to testify regarding the violation that had happened and the TRC had done its work and there are recommendations that were made by the TRC to ensure that they are fully and comprehensively implemented.
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So, in your case, are these recommendations, are you seeing any recommendations that were made by GRC being gradually implemented or do you know any strategies that are in place through the Minister of Justice that is happening to ensure that you be exiled from the Gambia to be able to go back to your country, the Gambia, back to your country, the Gambia?
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Obviously, I know that there are civil society organizations that have been actively working on Ketmot Ali, also in terms of having social cohesion events, having activities that involve the community of Ketmot Ali, but on the side of government, obviously, which is basically responsible for comprehensively implementing these recommendations, is there anything that is happening?
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What is your take on this?
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Yeah, thank you very much for that.
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Yes, the TRIC recommended some key, important steps to be taken in Kermode Alley.
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One is to promote social cohesion and reconciliation, which the victims of Kermode Alley, the exegetical community, actually welcome with open arms.
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The doors are always open and we always encourage people to walk towards that.
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The other recommendation is that for the setting up of the peace committee, again, the community of Kermode, the Ndigal, the exact victims, are very much open and welcome to the setting up of the peace committee.
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Their challenge, the problem there is the government that should have prioritized the peace is very lackadaisical in setting up of the peace.
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They are very slow in setting up of the peace committee and we know that peace is the source of everything, it's everything.
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Once you achieve peace, you almost achieve everything.
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So we would have thought the government would have long before prioritized setting up the peace committee in Kermodeh Ali.
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Yet the peace committee is not set, although there are signs from government that it committed to setting up the peace committee in due course.
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But we are yet to see it.
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So we cannot give them a score for something that has not happened yet.
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The other recommendation of the TRRC is for the legal community to be restituted to be returned to their land in the Gambia and then their properties being returned to them.
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That is a recommendation of the government, because why that happened is that for the legal community, the exiled Gambians they do not want to take the law into their own hands After the Jame era in 2017, instituted a civil suit against the borough administration.
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This was in March, so you can see it was in the early days of the Dutch coalition government instituted a civil suit to claim right to return to the Gambia and to seek a declaration that we are Gambians that have been sent off the soil of our motherland to another country.
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And you know you don't go to court and say I am a Gambian without proof of being Gambian, so you also cannot go to court and claim ownership of property without evidence of owning those properties.
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So the parties in the suit in 2017 were the Attorney General, inspector General of Police, because there were a lot of human rights violations, widespread violations that had occurred in Kermode Island during the incident that led to the exile in 2009.
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So the police has done so many brutalities, including human treatment.
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So that is why the IGP was a party to the soup.
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The then governor of the region must have mined, all the things that had happened, leading to the exile.
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So that was why the governor was also a party in the soup.
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When we were evicted from our forefathers land, our parents land, the land that people of Kermat Ali know and have been attached to, other people from somewhere came and took possession of the houses, the properties that we left behind.
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So now there is a village existing in Kermode Ali that emanated only in 2009.
00:28:40.779 --> 00:28:52.214
And all God-fearing people living in Sallon know that currently those people in Kermode Ali, gamliya they are not living there before 2009.
00:28:52.214 --> 00:29:08.395
Now, because a village is formed, because when we were leaving, a village was there Other people who also came did not build new homes, but they just came and took the homes of those people of Niger in exile.
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:12.546
Now there's a village, there needs to be an Alcalo.
00:29:12.546 --> 00:29:22.721
That head of the village, alcalo, was also a party in the soup, the suit.
00:29:22.721 --> 00:29:25.226
So you could see there were four parties in the suit.
00:29:25.226 --> 00:29:29.855
Each of these parties has a case to answer to and that was why it was an important matter.
00:29:29.855 --> 00:30:10.731
So the Attorney General, the IGP, the Governor by Aminata Sahasrisi entered a judgment in favor of the exile community of Indigat and made ungranted declarations that we were seeking, and among them is to be declared as Gambians and have to be restituted, and all the eight points that we sought from the court.
00:30:11.012 --> 00:30:11.875
The court accepted.
00:30:11.875 --> 00:30:29.394
We sought the court to guarantee a perpetual injunction restricting the government and all the parties from buying us from entering or restricting us from entering and repossess our properties.
00:30:29.394 --> 00:30:32.701
But this is the government is violating that.
00:30:32.701 --> 00:30:40.163
On Tuesday, there is also an injunction against restricting us from accessing, getting back our properties.
00:30:40.163 --> 00:30:44.861
Yet that is still a violation on the side of the government For us.
00:30:44.861 --> 00:30:46.546
We do not want to violate the law.
00:30:46.546 --> 00:30:47.789
We went to the law.
00:30:47.789 --> 00:30:54.109
We sought what we want to want and we mentioned those that are responsible.
00:30:54.109 --> 00:30:57.969
They didn't defend their case or, if they defended, they didn't succeed.
00:30:57.969 --> 00:31:02.421
Yet what the court gave us granted us that our properties are our property.
00:31:02.421 --> 00:31:03.604
Yet what the court gave us granted us that our properties are our property.
00:31:03.604 --> 00:31:15.326
It should be given back to us and the parties are also restrained from interfering from us getting back our properties.
00:31:15.326 --> 00:31:17.067
All these things are not happening.
00:31:17.086 --> 00:31:19.925
Hindering you guys getting back to your communities.
00:31:19.965 --> 00:31:25.609
So, are you guys really pulling up with the Minister of Justice to see how far are these recommendations?
00:31:25.609 --> 00:31:43.742
I know, of course, you've been involved in a lot of conversations around the issue that happened in Kilmorde Alley, but is there any follow-up mechanism by the community of Kilmorde Alley to ensure that the court that you guys won, the government, would abide by it, because, at the end of the day, it has become?
00:31:43.742 --> 00:31:46.208
It has been so long right?
00:31:46.208 --> 00:31:51.950
This happened in 2016, right, or 2017, right, and now we're in 2024.
00:31:51.950 --> 00:31:58.925
So I think that has to be a priority, because that is what you guys want and I think at some point.
00:31:59.067 --> 00:32:05.605
I know transitional justice processes take like, obviously it's a process you know they need to have.
00:32:05.605 --> 00:32:09.202
It goes through a process to ensure that things happen at the end of the day.
00:32:09.202 --> 00:32:14.113
But also, if there's no follow-ups, you know, at some point.
00:32:14.113 --> 00:32:19.108
Sometimes I feel like we tend to forget about things easily.
00:32:19.108 --> 00:32:24.990
You know, a couple of months or two a year, then another thing comes and then we focus on those things.
00:32:24.990 --> 00:32:35.249
So is there any mechanism that you guys are doing to ensure that that court judgment is being followed up and then something is being done about it?
00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:37.486
Yeah, thank you very much for that.
00:32:37.486 --> 00:32:44.949
I think we are counting on the implementation of the TRRC.
00:32:44.949 --> 00:33:03.775
I earlier mentioned the points that were recommended by the TRRC, which include the restitution, and that restitution means the implementation of the jointment that the exiled Gambians obtained from the High Court of the Gambia in 2017.
00:33:03.775 --> 00:33:28.457
So the government also issued a white paper and we saw in the white paper the government accepted the recommendation, all the recommendations of the TRC on Kermodean, and the government also outlined on its implementation plan that it is going to implement it and has outlined how to implement it.
00:33:29.402 --> 00:33:31.625
But we are still advocating.
00:33:31.625 --> 00:33:38.098
How we are doing to Metro Gov and do it is we are using the right channel, engaging the right authorities.
00:33:38.098 --> 00:33:40.787
That's one, but we are also doing activism.
00:33:40.787 --> 00:34:06.298
We advocate and we are also collaborating, networking and our biggest support that we will always and will forever continue to admire and wish them very well in all their endeavours in bringing to the spotlight the issue of Kermar Ali, his Women's Association for Victims' Empowerment.
00:34:06.298 --> 00:34:17.623
This is a community that was obviously disowned by its own government and taken care of by a foreign government In Senegal.
00:34:17.623 --> 00:34:31.273
Where we are in Senegal since we were forced into exile, we are provided security, whatever, even when we have our religious program, they will provide us electricity free of charge.
00:34:31.893 --> 00:34:32.094
Wow.
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:44.103
And whatever support we need as refugees, they are providing it, whereas our own government disowns us, whereas our own government does nots us, whereas our own government does not have any concern for us.
00:34:44.103 --> 00:35:28.422
We have not had any contact with any government official or any civil society organisation until in 2022, when we visited Kermode Alley, and since then, the community appears to continue to increase its love, attachment and concern for human rights of all people, human rights of the transitional justice that take root of all-inclusive, because then I, as a reporter, being going to events, I would be covering, covering and my people.
00:35:28.422 --> 00:35:43.684
I quite know how and where and how they are there and I do not see where they are plugged into all the transfer programs that we are talking about, and I cannot force a way of it out.
00:35:43.684 --> 00:35:55.793
All that I could do was to engage people engaged, but what brought us to the limelight is thanks to WAVE, so that's why we are always grateful to them.
00:35:56.092 --> 00:36:18.851
But for Ministry of Justice, again, they are also doing good behind the scenes, although how government is working may perhaps not be as expected in terms of victims' need, but in terms of setting up the peace committee, there are some assurances.
00:36:18.851 --> 00:36:24.793
As I said, we will not score them for something that has not happened yet.
00:36:24.793 --> 00:36:34.286
But with regard to the restitution, they are also planned in the implementation plan, yet it is yet to be done.
00:36:34.286 --> 00:36:36.391
So we are waiting to see.
00:36:36.391 --> 00:36:44.934
There seems to be commitment on the side of government in doing the right thing, correcting the wrongs.
00:36:44.934 --> 00:36:49.829
Because in this country, one thing I always say this transitional justice.
00:36:49.829 --> 00:37:01.775
We have to be very careful about it, because if you cannot correct wrong A, b and skip C, it will haunt us in the future.
00:37:02.539 --> 00:37:18.831
So this case of Kermode Alley cannot be an exception, in as much as justice and accountability is a priority in A, b, reparation and registration, and any other need should also be C, d, e in sequence.
00:37:19.144 --> 00:37:20.119
I quite agree with that.
00:37:20.260 --> 00:37:25.402
And that I always and will always urge government to take note of.
00:37:25.402 --> 00:37:28.449
The case of Kermode Alley cannot be an exception.
00:37:28.710 --> 00:37:30.001
Thank you very much, keaba.
00:37:30.001 --> 00:37:36.545
The case of Kermode Alley cannot be an exception, and I quite agree with you, because all these mechanisms are equally very important.
00:37:36.545 --> 00:37:41.005
Restitution is important, reparation is important, accountability is important.
00:37:41.005 --> 00:37:42.391
One cannot go without the other.
00:37:42.391 --> 00:37:44.025
And thank you so much.
00:37:44.025 --> 00:37:52.949
And kudos to WAIF as well, and I think this episode actually was brought to you by Women's Association for Victims Empowerment.
00:37:52.949 --> 00:38:00.670
I think they're really doing a great job in Kermode Ali, which I think should really be out there.
00:38:00.670 --> 00:38:04.085
And thank you again for coming to the victims podcast.
00:38:04.686 --> 00:38:07.902
I appreciate you coming well, this is what we have for today's edition.
00:38:07.902 --> 00:38:10.512
Remember you can listen to the previous edition.
00:38:10.512 --> 00:38:14.641
In case you haven't listened to any, don't forget to subscribe to our channel as well.
00:38:14.641 --> 00:38:18.762
Until we see you, thank you, thank you.