WEBVTT
00:00:00.959 --> 00:00:03.439
Hi, this is the Strategy Gap Podcast.
00:00:03.520 --> 00:00:07.280
This is Pete Wilkinson, and this is episode 13.
00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:16.320
In this episode, I'm going to talk about something that came up with a customer of ours recently around self-managed teams.
00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:20.320
And we've come up with this model, what I'm calling the three levels.
00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:25.199
And I want to get into the three levels and show you and tell you about what they are.
00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:31.440
And this would help you if you are in a situation where you like the idea of self-managed teams.
00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:42.560
To give a little bit of background, this is a company, it's a Japanese company, and we've been helping them with you know setting their goals, their strategy, or all this sort of stuff.
00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:52.079
But what came up was the people who are the original founders of the company are still too heavily involved in their eyes in the day-to-day, they're too operational.
00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:53.920
And I've seen this many, many times.
00:00:54.000 --> 00:01:00.479
So one of the things we're trying to get to is how do we build self-managed teams?
00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:20.239
And I came up with this concept of three levels, and the three levels are responsibility, accountability, and ownership, and kind of visualize if you listen to this, like three steps going up and and underpinning those three steps is kind of foundation piece is communication.
00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:22.480
So what does that mean?
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:30.799
So when we've got these, when we've got your team members, I want you to think about trying to help them to move through these three steps or these three levels.
00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:33.359
The first level is responsibility.
00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:42.719
Now, when someone is responsible for something or takes responsibility, they they they are basically responsible for the task.
00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:47.760
The task is, I don't know, making five phone calls to customers, right?
00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:48.799
Something really simple, right?
00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:57.040
So there's a basic task, and at responsibility level, all they think about and all they're responsible for is that particular task.
00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:59.200
That's what I would call level one.
00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:09.439
Level two is a step up from that, and this is where someone is now taking accountability for the result.
00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:16.800
So level one, the person's taking responsibility for the task.
00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:20.800
Level two, they're taking accountability for the result.
00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:32.400
So not only do they take action on the physical task, but they are actually also accountable in terms of the result from that particular task.
00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:40.000
So it's slightly better having your people to take or to be accountable for their own particular results.
00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:56.719
Um, interestingly, you can give responsibility or make someone responsible, you can also give or delegate accountability, but the third step, the third level, is much more harder, and that level is ownership.
00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:15.199
Now, the interesting thing with ownership is that you can't delegate ownership, someone has to take ownership, and what that means is you need as a leader to create an environment where they want to take ownership.
00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:21.599
Okay, you can delegate and say someone you're responsible for that, or I'm gonna hold you accountable for that, and you can make that quite clear.
00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:26.479
You can't tell someone to take ownership, they have to take ownership, okay.
00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:29.919
And it's a it's a subtle change, but it can make a big difference.
00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:44.800
And when we were going through that, those those steps with this company, it was really interesting how we saw a positive impact and engagement as we were trying to sort of you know move through these three steps in the company to get people to take that that ownership.
00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:52.000
That's the bit we want to do, and of course, different companies have different cultures, and you'll be at different stages, but that's kind of what we're thinking.
00:03:52.560 --> 00:04:22.079
Now, if we were to give, if I was to share with you like a simple um sort of you know, one-sentence summary of each of the areas, it would be when you think about someone being responsible, they will say something like, I do the work, and then when they're accountable, they'll be saying, like, you know, I kind of I own or I take responsibility, I'm accountable for the actual result itself.
00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:24.399
I answer for the result, for example.
00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:32.160
But when you get the ownership, you you're getting someone to sort of say, I drive success end to end with no excuses.
00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:33.680
It's a very, very big difference.
00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:44.000
And I've seen in my own company, like with we're a micro team, not lot loads of us, but when people actually take ownership, the results are far, far better.
00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:52.079
So, of course, the challenge then, if you like the idea of this, is well, how do you help someone to take ownership?
00:04:52.160 --> 00:05:03.600
And this is a lot around the culture and the sort of the performance culture you're trying to build within the company that supports enabling them to take ownership.
00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.800
But there are three specific steps.
00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:16.639
Um, I would like you to think about if your intention is to have more self-managed teams and try to get people to move through those levels to get to ownership.
00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:17.120
Okay.
00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:32.480
Now, the first thing with ownership is that you want people to you sorry, you want to not keep delegating the process or delegating the system, you want to be delegating the outcomes.
00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:44.639
So you want to be really clear with someone in step one, what is the outcome that you want that person to deliver, and that's what you kind of want to really sort of um get clear.
00:05:44.720 --> 00:06:15.839
So instead of like telling them step by step, and in instead of trying to like you know, um almost micromanage them, you're trying to think about what can you um what can you do to to build that trust by saying, This is the outcome I want that I would like you to take ownership for, that you, you know, it would be great if you could take ownership for this, and and and let them decide kind of like how they're gonna get there, but you get really clear on what the outcome is.
00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:23.040
We've been working on something I learned from a guy called Dan Martell called DOD or DOD, which stands for definition definition of done.
00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:25.040
It's been really clear what the outcome is.
00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:26.319
So that's the first action.
00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:29.600
Don't delegate the process, delegate the outcome.
00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:33.040
Okay, and I'm not a big fan of outcome thinking, we'll get into that later on.
00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:38.639
In fact, I think we did do a podcast on on NLP, and I and I believe we did go through outcome thinking on that.
00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:40.720
Anyway, so that's the first step.
00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:46.720
The second step is helping them to connect their work to the bigger picture.
00:06:46.959 --> 00:07:16.639
Um, we often talk about the task or the action or the or the outcome in isolation, and one of the great things that works, and we've seen this work firsthand, is if you really help someone to understand how that piece of work that they are going to take ownership for, how that piece of work connects to the real bigger picture, whether that's your uh 12-month vision, whether that's your five-year vision, whether that's going back to the even the company purpose.
00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:43.279
But if people can understand really quite simply how the thing they are doing, the the you know, you're asking them for this outcome because this outcome really sort of you know the sort of contribution you want them to make, whether that's to a customer, whether that's to a client, whether that's to an internal customer, how this particular outcome really affects that, that's a really great way to get them to take ownership.
00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:51.279
And then the third uh uh step for this is to create an environment where it's like it's safe to fail.
00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:56.079
And and you know, in the past I've struggled with this because you know you want things done right, of course.
00:07:56.319 --> 00:08:02.800
But I think once you've got this this environment where you say to somebody, look, this is the outcome we want.
00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:04.879
You know, I would like you to take ownership for this.
00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:09.040
You might not get it right first time, and if you make a mistake and we learn from it, that's okay.
00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:11.519
I think that's a really big area.
00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:31.439
We you know, I've talked a little bit in the past around psychological safety, and I'm really now understanding how important that is when you are driving this kind of performance culture, this pig performance, because you're asking people to do things that maybe are not straightforward, maybe they're not expert at yet.
00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:37.759
Um, and and if they are frightened to make mistakes, then then why would they want to take ownership?
00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:50.720
You know, they'd they'd rather you you own that because you know you might you might um you know you you might sort of like they they may feel they're gonna be penalized if they don't get it right straight away, and you've got to build a bit of cushion at that.
00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:55.200
So, what we're trying to do here is and you've got to communicate well all the way through.
00:08:55.279 --> 00:09:10.720
So, as I said at the very beginning, the three levels of responsibility, accountability, and ownership, those three levels you know, you underpin this with really good communication, but but you know, just to summarize, try to get them to realize this is the outcome, you decide how you get there.
00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:32.080
Try to get them to sort of realize that this particular piece of work connects to something really big over there, and that's super important for the company, and it's super important for our customers and our clients, and really matters, and then ultimately, you know, building this this high trust environment where you go, it's okay if this doesn't go right first time.
00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:37.919
Don't worry about it, you might make mistakes, you're gonna learn from them, and as long as we keep moving forward, that's fine.
00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:50.559
And those three things would help your people to grow and take ownership because ultimately, you know, getting to the point where you're building lots of um, I remember a book I read by Aaron Ross, uh, what was it?
00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:51.840
Uh Predictable Revenue.
00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:53.039
That's right, predictable revenue.
00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:56.720
And he he talks about mini CEOs, and this is the same sort of thing, really.
00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:11.919
It's it's creating a team where your team members, you know, take absolute ownership of the things that they are within their control, and they own the actual complete end-to-end result, the end-to-end action is a great place to be.
00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:21.440
And we've seen that work with this Japanese company, and you know, people are taking on more ownership now, they've moved on from responsibility and just accountability, and the results are great.
00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:37.279
Engracement figures are going up despite a challenging marketplace, revenue is still growing, and it's down to people feeling safe, understanding what they do connect to the bigger picture, and ultimately we're getting good at delegating the outcomes, not just the activity.
00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:46.639
So, what that'll do is it'll help you to you know build these self-managed teams and get people to taking on more of this ownership so you don't have to be too operational.
00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:53.039
Uh, your action from this podcast is is just to reflect and think, you know, are you too operational as a leader?
00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:57.360
Are you are you actually you know leading your teams or are you still managing?
00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:01.600
And if you're still managing and you've got a tight grip on your teams, could you loosen that slightly?
00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:22.799
And thinking about the three levels of RAO, responsibility, accountability, and ownership could be a way that you could, you know, pick pick someone in the team and try and go through those three steps and just see what happens if you can allow them to want to take ownership and then take some responsibility off your shoulders so you can go and become more strategic.
00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:24.720
That's the outcome of this podcast.
00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:26.639
Okay, hope this all makes sense.
00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:27.759
Take care, bye for now.
00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:28.480
It's Pete.
00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:29.679
I'll speak to you soon.
00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:30.799
Bye bye.
00:00:00.959 --> 00:00:03.439
Hi, this is the Strategy Gap Podcast.
00:00:03.520 --> 00:00:07.280
This is Pete Wilkinson, and this is episode 13.
00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:16.320
In this episode, I'm going to talk about something that came up with a customer of ours recently around self-managed teams.
00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:20.320
And we've come up with this model, what I'm calling the three levels.
00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:25.199
And I want to get into the three levels and show you and tell you about what they are.
00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:31.440
And this would help you if you are in a situation where you like the idea of self-managed teams.
00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:42.560
To give a little bit of background, this is a company, it's a Japanese company, and we've been helping them with you know setting their goals, their strategy, or all this sort of stuff.
00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:52.079
But what came up was the people who are the original founders of the company are still too heavily involved in their eyes in the day-to-day, they're too operational.
00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:53.920
And I've seen this many, many times.
00:00:54.000 --> 00:01:00.479
So one of the things we're trying to get to is how do we build self-managed teams?
00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:20.239
And I came up with this concept of three levels, and the three levels are responsibility, accountability, and ownership, and kind of visualize if you listen to this, like three steps going up and and underpinning those three steps is kind of foundation piece is communication.
00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:22.480
So what does that mean?
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:30.799
So when we've got these, when we've got your team members, I want you to think about trying to help them to move through these three steps or these three levels.
00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:33.359
The first level is responsibility.
00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:42.719
Now, when someone is responsible for something or takes responsibility, they they they are basically responsible for the task.
00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:47.760
The task is, I don't know, making five phone calls to customers, right?
00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:48.799
Something really simple, right?
00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:57.040
So there's a basic task, and at responsibility level, all they think about and all they're responsible for is that particular task.
00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:59.200
That's what I would call level one.
00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:09.439
Level two is a step up from that, and this is where someone is now taking accountability for the result.
00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:16.800
So level one, the person's taking responsibility for the task.
00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:20.800
Level two, they're taking accountability for the result.
00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:32.400
So not only do they take action on the physical task, but they are actually also accountable in terms of the result from that particular task.
00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:40.000
So it's slightly better having your people to take or to be accountable for their own particular results.
00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:56.719
Um, interestingly, you can give responsibility or make someone responsible, you can also give or delegate accountability, but the third step, the third level, is much more harder, and that level is ownership.
00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:15.199
Now, the interesting thing with ownership is that you can't delegate ownership, someone has to take ownership, and what that means is you need as a leader to create an environment where they want to take ownership.
00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:21.599
Okay, you can delegate and say someone you're responsible for that, or I'm gonna hold you accountable for that, and you can make that quite clear.
00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:26.479
You can't tell someone to take ownership, they have to take ownership, okay.
00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:29.919
And it's a it's a subtle change, but it can make a big difference.
00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:44.800
And when we were going through that, those those steps with this company, it was really interesting how we saw a positive impact and engagement as we were trying to sort of you know move through these three steps in the company to get people to take that that ownership.
00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:52.000
That's the bit we want to do, and of course, different companies have different cultures, and you'll be at different stages, but that's kind of what we're thinking.
00:03:52.560 --> 00:04:22.079
Now, if we were to give, if I was to share with you like a simple um sort of you know, one-sentence summary of each of the areas, it would be when you think about someone being responsible, they will say something like, I do the work, and then when they're accountable, they'll be saying, like, you know, I kind of I own or I take responsibility, I'm accountable for the actual result itself.
00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:24.399
I answer for the result, for example.
00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:32.160
But when you get the ownership, you you're getting someone to sort of say, I drive success end to end with no excuses.
00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:33.680
It's a very, very big difference.
00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:44.000
And I've seen in my own company, like with we're a micro team, not lot loads of us, but when people actually take ownership, the results are far, far better.
00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:52.079
So, of course, the challenge then, if you like the idea of this, is well, how do you help someone to take ownership?
00:04:52.160 --> 00:05:03.600
And this is a lot around the culture and the sort of the performance culture you're trying to build within the company that supports enabling them to take ownership.
00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.800
But there are three specific steps.
00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:16.639
Um, I would like you to think about if your intention is to have more self-managed teams and try to get people to move through those levels to get to ownership.
00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:17.120
Okay.
00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:32.480
Now, the first thing with ownership is that you want people to you sorry, you want to not keep delegating the process or delegating the system, you want to be delegating the outcomes.
00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:44.639
So you want to be really clear with someone in step one, what is the outcome that you want that person to deliver, and that's what you kind of want to really sort of um get clear.
00:05:44.720 --> 00:06:15.839
So instead of like telling them step by step, and in instead of trying to like you know, um almost micromanage them, you're trying to think about what can you um what can you do to to build that trust by saying, This is the outcome I want that I would like you to take ownership for, that you, you know, it would be great if you could take ownership for this, and and and let them decide kind of like how they're gonna get there, but you get really clear on what the outcome is.
00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:23.040
We've been working on something I learned from a guy called Dan Martell called DOD or DOD, which stands for definition definition of done.
00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:25.040
It's been really clear what the outcome is.
00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:26.319
So that's the first action.
00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:29.600
Don't delegate the process, delegate the outcome.
00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:33.040
Okay, and I'm not a big fan of outcome thinking, we'll get into that later on.
00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:38.639
In fact, I think we did do a podcast on on NLP, and I and I believe we did go through outcome thinking on that.
00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:40.720
Anyway, so that's the first step.
00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:46.720
The second step is helping them to connect their work to the bigger picture.
00:06:46.959 --> 00:07:16.639
Um, we often talk about the task or the action or the or the outcome in isolation, and one of the great things that works, and we've seen this work firsthand, is if you really help someone to understand how that piece of work that they are going to take ownership for, how that piece of work connects to the real bigger picture, whether that's your uh 12-month vision, whether that's your five-year vision, whether that's going back to the even the company purpose.
00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:43.279
But if people can understand really quite simply how the thing they are doing, the the you know, you're asking them for this outcome because this outcome really sort of you know the sort of contribution you want them to make, whether that's to a customer, whether that's to a client, whether that's to an internal customer, how this particular outcome really affects that, that's a really great way to get them to take ownership.
00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:51.279
And then the third uh uh step for this is to create an environment where it's like it's safe to fail.
00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:56.079
And and you know, in the past I've struggled with this because you know you want things done right, of course.
00:07:56.319 --> 00:08:02.800
But I think once you've got this this environment where you say to somebody, look, this is the outcome we want.
00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:04.879
You know, I would like you to take ownership for this.
00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:09.040
You might not get it right first time, and if you make a mistake and we learn from it, that's okay.
00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:11.519
I think that's a really big area.
00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:31.439
We you know, I've talked a little bit in the past around psychological safety, and I'm really now understanding how important that is when you are driving this kind of performance culture, this pig performance, because you're asking people to do things that maybe are not straightforward, maybe they're not expert at yet.
00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:37.759
Um, and and if they are frightened to make mistakes, then then why would they want to take ownership?
00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:50.720
You know, they'd they'd rather you you own that because you know you might you might um you know you you might sort of like they they may feel they're gonna be penalized if they don't get it right straight away, and you've got to build a bit of cushion at that.
00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:55.200
So, what we're trying to do here is and you've got to communicate well all the way through.
00:08:55.279 --> 00:09:10.720
So, as I said at the very beginning, the three levels of responsibility, accountability, and ownership, those three levels you know, you underpin this with really good communication, but but you know, just to summarize, try to get them to realize this is the outcome, you decide how you get there.
00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:32.080
Try to get them to sort of realize that this particular piece of work connects to something really big over there, and that's super important for the company, and it's super important for our customers and our clients, and really matters, and then ultimately, you know, building this this high trust environment where you go, it's okay if this doesn't go right first time.
00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:37.919
Don't worry about it, you might make mistakes, you're gonna learn from them, and as long as we keep moving forward, that's fine.
00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:50.559
And those three things would help your people to grow and take ownership because ultimately, you know, getting to the point where you're building lots of um, I remember a book I read by Aaron Ross, uh, what was it?
00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:51.840
Uh Predictable Revenue.
00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:53.039
That's right, predictable revenue.
00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:56.720
And he he talks about mini CEOs, and this is the same sort of thing, really.
00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:11.919
It's it's creating a team where your team members, you know, take absolute ownership of the things that they are within their control, and they own the actual complete end-to-end result, the end-to-end action is a great place to be.
00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:21.440
And we've seen that work with this Japanese company, and you know, people are taking on more ownership now, they've moved on from responsibility and just accountability, and the results are great.
00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:37.279
Engracement figures are going up despite a challenging marketplace, revenue is still growing, and it's down to people feeling safe, understanding what they do connect to the bigger picture, and ultimately we're getting good at delegating the outcomes, not just the activity.
00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:46.639
So, what that'll do is it'll help you to you know build these self-managed teams and get people to taking on more of this ownership so you don't have to be too operational.
00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:53.039
Uh, your action from this podcast is is just to reflect and think, you know, are you too operational as a leader?
00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:57.360
Are you are you actually you know leading your teams or are you still managing?
00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:01.600
And if you're still managing and you've got a tight grip on your teams, could you loosen that slightly?
00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:22.799
And thinking about the three levels of RAO, responsibility, accountability, and ownership could be a way that you could, you know, pick pick someone in the team and try and go through those three steps and just see what happens if you can allow them to want to take ownership and then take some responsibility off your shoulders so you can go and become more strategic.
00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:24.720
That's the outcome of this podcast.
00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:26.639
Okay, hope this all makes sense.
00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:27.759
Take care, bye for now.
00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:28.480
It's Pete.
00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:29.679
I'll speak to you soon.
00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:30.799
Bye bye.
