"Think Headlight not Spotlight": Storytelling for Social Learning

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Once upon a time, there was an
instructional designer who wanted
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to create learning experiences where
people could share their stories.
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But what if nobody chimed in?
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What if the stories people chose
were entertaining but not relevant?
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Or what if storytelling took too
much time and got everyone off track?
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Hi Lab Mates!
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Welcome to the Social Learning Lab, a
podclass about social learning at work.
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In today's episode, we'll chat
with an expert who will share what
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she knows about bringing learners
together through the power of story.
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Hi Labmates, I'm Katie.
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Today I'm here with
Nicole, Rocio, and Diego.
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We are so excited to welcome Hadiya
Nuriddin to the Social Learning Lab today.
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Hadiya has over two decades of experience
in learning, design and development.
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With Duets Learning, she has helped
countless individuals and organizations
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achieve their goals through her
expert knowledge and guidance.
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In addition to project work, Hadia is
a thought leader, who frequently speaks
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at conferences internationally; is the
author of two learning and development
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books and several articles; and teaches
courses on learning design for the
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Association for Talent Development
and the University of San Diego.
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Finally, she is ATDs 2023 Talent
Development Outstanding Professional
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Award recipient, and she also
received The Guild Master Award
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from the Learning 2023 Conference.
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So, thank you so much
for joining us, Hadiya..
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Thank you very much for having me.
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Yeah, we're really excited.
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I read your book StoryTraining and
I'm really excited to begin asking
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you some questions about that.
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So, you wrote this
StoryTraining: Selecting and
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Shaping Stories that Connect.
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So, I wanna know, first of all, your
thoughts on, what is it about stories
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that helps us connect with each other?
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Well, for me, personally, I think
that everybody's favorite topic is
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themselves; and when you tell a story,
if people can recognize themselves in
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that narrative, because you, sometimes
it's frustrating when people just
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say storytelling, when it's not.
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We've all heard stories that are boring.
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We've all heard stories that we don't
resonate with, and so it's not just story.
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I mean that's not thing.
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It's the work that we've put into
the story with finding what will
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connect with audiences, what can we
say to help them recognize themselves
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to put them on that journey.
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You know, our goal as well
as, as storytellers, is not
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just to take an experience and
transplant it into their heads.
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We want to make that sort of
connection of fusion between my
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experience and your experience, and
not even really match the details.
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It's that core that,
that human experience.
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You know, you may not have done anything
that you consider exciting, climbing
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a mountain, you know, all that stuff.
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However, we've all felt lost.
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We've all felt fear.
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We've all felt that.
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And so, in your stories, if you're
able to make that shine, then you can
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connect to people and sort of reflect
their experience back to them; and
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I think that ultimately makes people
feel seen; and they're able to go on
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that journey with you because they
feel like they're alongside you.
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Yeah, and I, I know the word connection,
Stories that Connect, that's part of your
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subtitle and it is a big theme throughout
the book, using stories in this way.
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So, and, you know, we being obsessed with
social learning here, you know, connection
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is a thing that we think about a lot too.
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So, I'm curious what you think
in your experience, the role that
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connection plays in workplace learning.
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You know, I, I've been on my own sort of
journey with connection for about five
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years or so, because before I didn't
really see that connection with social
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learning with other people; and, how that
connection helps us support others and
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how we can feel supported in the value
of that; and, now, I do, and I think
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one of the things that I, I learned or
that resonates most with me is that, you
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know, the, the classroom experience I
think, can often feel very artificial.
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It feels sort of isolated
from the work experience.
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And, the more we can combine those
two together and mimic what they're
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experiencing in real life, you know, so
for example, if, you know, in a, in a,
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sometimes when we're designing a class
and putting together, we're just like
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looking for any sort of exercise that
matches the objective and does this work?
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Are they talking to each other?
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Blah, blah, blah.
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But, I've sort of taken steps now
of saying, well, how will this look
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like on the job, on the actual job?
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Who will be involved?
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Will they be by themselves doing this,
or will other people be involved?
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So, I'm trying to extend that experience
outside of the classroom into work.
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So, I guess to answer, your,
your question is, because work
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for the most part is social.
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Social doesn't just me talking to one
another and being around people, in my
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mind it's just, you know, having the
experience to have to support others and
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have them support, even if you're a lone
instructional designer or developer.
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The people that you're serving are
part of that ecosystem or part of
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that community; and so trying to
create authentic experience, almost
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requires a social aspect to it.
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If not, then it's artificial and it's
sort of separated and lobbed on to the
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end just to do an exercise, because they
haven't talked to each other in a while.
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But, you know, the truth is, is if
that's how it's gonna be on the job,
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then that's how it should be in the
experience as much as as feasible.
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And, that was of course, a little
bit more difficult to do when
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you have asynchronous e-learning.
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But there, you know, there have been
some ways of having little videos or
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having coaches that you can talk to,
that you can click on throughout.
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So, there's ways to sort of, you know,
you know, create that, but at the end
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of the day, I think what you always
have to answer, you know, for yourself
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and through your research and your own
experiences is it's not just sociable.
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What does social mean?
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Just like storytelling.
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It's not just stories.
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It's not just people.
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You're talking to people.
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What does it mean?
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What does it do to enhance the
experience in the classroom and
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how does it connect to the work
that we doing outside on the job?
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Yeah, and that's really important,
because the, also, the more authentic
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the experience is, the more invested
the people are gonna be, because they're
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gonna be able to connect themselves in
that moment to probably a situation that
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they have been in or a situation that
they're gonna encounter themselves in;
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and if they can't make that connection,
then more than likely they're just not
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gonna be invested in what you're making.
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Because we're not often, it's not
just the skills on the job that we're
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teaching, it's we're teaching them how
to do it along with those skills, but
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how do we incorporate others, you know,
how do we- I, I remember this class
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that I, it was a part of a class that I
taught for ATD Scenario-based eLearning.
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And, there was this sort of just
abbreviate this, this class that was an
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example and it was just HTML asynchronous,
nothing special at all about it, but
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what it was is it was teaching doctors
how to handle situations where the,
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the living will of a patient said,
do not resuscitate, but the family's
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like, you had better resuscitate.
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And so, how does a doctor navigate that?
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So obviously, there's no
multiple choice there of do you
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just flip the switch or not.
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I mean, you can't do that.
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So, it was, it was the knowledge that
they needed to make that decision, but
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it was teaching the behaviors behind
it as well that they had to reach out
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to different, you know, to clergy, to
lawyers cause it was state by state.
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They had to, rec they, it was
teaching, not just that decision
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of this is what a living will is
and this is how to communicate.
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It was throwing you in that environment
and saying, who can I depend on?
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Who's going to be a part of this decision?
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It's not just me making it,
it's a community of making
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it, and I need their support.
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How do I reach out for that support?
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And just the way the course was built,
taught them that in addition to the skills
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needed to require something like that.
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So, it just creates this,
created a very authentic
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experience, with just HTML links.
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No, no video, nothing.
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Just pictures.
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That was it.
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So, I I, I'll never forget that class.
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It was really, it was interesting,
and I only saw a sample of it.
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I didn't even see the whole thing, but
it's like that was the first time I saw a
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really good reflection in asynchronously
learning, and something that was a
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great consequence, but could have been
done in a very, almost rudimentary way.
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Yeah, I think it goes back to what
you were saying about intention like
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you have to be intentional about those
activities that you're designing.
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It's not just an activity to give
people an activity and say, "oh,
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here, let's just get them together.
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Let's get them to talk", like you said, no
like what is the purpose of them talking?
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Because maybe they don't
have to talk, right?
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Like maybe there's no purpose
of them talking to each other.
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So, what are we really trying
to, what are we really trying
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to get out of this activity?
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And I think that, that part, people are
so focused on those learning objectives
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that they forget that everything
that you do has to have an outcome,
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an intention, not just a learning
objectives that you're designing.
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Cause there's the, there's
learning outcome and there's the
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performance outcome, you know.
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Exactly.
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What do we expect them to be able
to do, and what does that look like,
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and how can we tap into that as well
throughout being realistic of course,
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because we have, so, we have a lot
limitations and what we can we can create.
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Especially, sometimes it's the technology,
sometimes we just don't have time to
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create this immersive experience the
way we, we would like to, but yeah,
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like I said, even with, with that
class, there are some, some really
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basic ways that we can pull that off.
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I was going to say it could
have been a really awful class.
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Like I could just picture, you
know, what is a living will X, Y, Z?
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What?
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Yeah.
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But, instead, they use story, and so
that's such an interesting example
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and it's a hyper, it was like
you said, a hyper social moment.
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So not even, not the learning, but the
thing they have to do is hyper social.
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They had to talk to these communities,
these different members of the community.
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Really interesting.
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A really great example.
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I appreciated that in your book,
you talk about, you know, ways
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to use stories for training.
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So, I mean, we're all familiar with
stories, but you really, you know,
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took us into the mind of a, a learning
designer, you know, and how can we, a
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facilitator, how can we, you know, bring
in the stories and use them to achieve
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our goals like you were just saying.
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So, you talk about like in terms
of connection, you know, ways like
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bridging the course to reality.
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So, you kind of touched on that already
with your example, linking old and
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new and then also creating empathy.
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So, I'd love to hear you speak a
little bit more about any of those
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really, about how you see them
connect, creating that connection.
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Yeah.
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So, I started sort of delving into
this idea of a science behind story,
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and one thing that I emphasize when
I talk about all these different
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strategies is you, you really,
you, first of all, you need intent.
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That's the number one
thing that's important.
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But whatever you're, you're trying to
tap into when it comes to something
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like empathy is, how does that
connect your performance specifically?
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A story is a tool.
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That's all.
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There are many ways to get people to
feel a connection to someone else.
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There's many ways to sort of
reinforce that, that, that empathy.
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You know, there's one thing I think I
may say this in the book, and there's
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maybe one, one thing I could have
regret is this idea that you can create
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empathy like you, you can't really
create it all you can do, just like with
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learning, we can't force people to learn.
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What we do is we create environments that
support it, and sometimes some people we
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know are going to just shut off as soon
as you try getting a little too deep.
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I always tell people, don't
open doors, you can't close.
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You know, when you start to get a
little too deep, people will shut off.
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But I think in our minds, we think empathy
is like this, "oh, we trigger this,
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people are gonna be so happy, and so"...
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no, that's not how it works.
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People respond to this,
this in different ways.
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So, you have to be, you know,
have a lot of intent and
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think, what am I trying to do?
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And, people are going to,
you know, respond to them, to
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respond to it in multiple ways.
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You know, I think the most important
thing, or what I just try to get to
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again, is that, that authenticity
of the moment that we are preparing
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them for, and what that's going to
look like, and whatever comes with
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00:12:27,296 --> 00:12:29,696
that, I wanna bring it along with me.
223
00:12:29,796 --> 00:12:31,936
And, it's not always this deep emotion.
224
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It's not always.
225
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It's just preparing them for whatever
environment they are going to have to
226
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work in, what they're gonna navigate.
227
00:12:40,606 --> 00:12:45,086
And, it can't, it's not always like we,
we think about, you know, soft skills.
228
00:12:45,516 --> 00:12:51,206
Yeah, if I am learning leadership
skills and I'm in a meeting with an
229
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employee and I have to give them some,
some feedback that's not the greatest,
230
00:12:57,034 --> 00:13:02,134
that's automatically gonna trigger some
emotion and we do want you to feel what
231
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it's like to be in the person receiving
that feedback with the shoes they're
232
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gonna be in and how they're gonna feel.
233
00:13:08,354 --> 00:13:11,374
So, there's that, but there's also
technical training as well where
234
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people think, where's the emotion that?
235
00:13:13,664 --> 00:13:17,399
You know, I started my career in technical
support and it was a lot of emotion.
236
00:13:18,419 --> 00:13:22,399
My technical support, because it was very
intimidating, it was very scary, it was
237
00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:26,119
very nerve wracking, and you didn't know
what twist and turns things would take.
238
00:13:26,139 --> 00:13:29,119
You didn't know what they would come up
with, and this was before you could just
239
00:13:29,119 --> 00:13:30,919
be like, "Let me dial into your computer".
240
00:13:31,219 --> 00:13:32,759
It was just all, what are you seeing?
241
00:13:32,829 --> 00:13:33,559
What are you seeing?
242
00:13:33,659 --> 00:13:34,399
What's happening?
243
00:13:34,399 --> 00:13:35,119
You're too quiet.
244
00:13:35,119 --> 00:13:36,999
What's going, do you have
a kid that can help you?
245
00:13:37,079 --> 00:13:42,159
I mean, this is like we were in Windows
95, you know, so this was a brand new
246
00:13:42,159 --> 00:13:46,519
concept that people had the computers
in their home, let alone know how to
247
00:13:46,819 --> 00:13:50,199
do their own tech support, which is
really what they were doing, and we
248
00:13:50,199 --> 00:13:51,759
were walking them, them through it.
249
00:13:51,759 --> 00:13:55,039
So, there was a lot of sensitivity
that had to be involved.
250
00:13:55,039 --> 00:13:56,159
There was a lot of patience.
251
00:13:56,159 --> 00:14:00,839
There was a lot of, and so it, when we
learned, taught them about tech support,
252
00:14:01,139 --> 00:14:04,319
it wasn't just about, I mean this is,
of course, I wasn't thinking this, this
253
00:14:04,319 --> 00:14:08,479
is all in retrospect, but when I think
about approaching a topic like that
254
00:14:08,619 --> 00:14:13,603
now, that's like the number one thing
we should have learned, was how to
255
00:14:13,603 --> 00:14:17,243
help somebody navigate that which is a
whole different skill than me doing it.
256
00:14:17,828 --> 00:14:19,748
A whole different skill
than me editing those files.
257
00:14:20,098 --> 00:14:24,301
It's walking people who have never
seen this before, how to edit a file
258
00:14:24,441 --> 00:14:27,861
and how to type it just perfectly,
or else the consequences, they will
259
00:14:27,861 --> 00:14:31,536
not be able to boot into windows
and open up that file again, right.
260
00:14:31,706 --> 00:14:36,046
So, those were the type, there's always
something connected to it, even like
261
00:14:36,046 --> 00:14:38,446
payroll, you know, and, and all of that.
262
00:14:38,446 --> 00:14:43,366
So, really trying to, what is the
ex, what does that really look like?
263
00:14:43,616 --> 00:14:46,183
And, it's hard to get outta SMEs
what that looks like, to be honest.
264
00:14:46,523 --> 00:14:51,543
You know, it's a challenging thing to
get what that essence is, but as much as
265
00:14:51,543 --> 00:14:56,021
you can, you know, try to create it, I
think, you know, we, what, what I want
266
00:14:56,021 --> 00:14:57,341
people to do to walk away from training.
267
00:14:57,451 --> 00:14:58,621
It's not that I took training.
268
00:14:59,101 --> 00:15:01,101
I want them to feel
like I experienced that.
269
00:15:01,261 --> 00:15:01,901
I lived that.
270
00:15:02,301 --> 00:15:02,861
I did that.
271
00:15:03,161 --> 00:15:06,701
Not that I was trained in it,
but I did it and I know what to
272
00:15:06,701 --> 00:15:08,614
do, because I experienced it.
273
00:15:08,674 --> 00:15:11,654
And that, you can only bring
about that feeling in some
274
00:15:11,654 --> 00:15:13,774
sort of authentic situation.
275
00:15:14,514 --> 00:15:18,754
I also like to stress that interaction
doesn't happen through the hand,
276
00:15:18,774 --> 00:15:20,824
it happens through the mind, right?
277
00:15:20,884 --> 00:15:24,144
So just click, click, click,
click, click is not interaction.
278
00:15:24,164 --> 00:15:28,784
You know, interaction is evaluating, it's
critical thinking, so you don't have to
279
00:15:28,784 --> 00:15:30,024
have click, click, click, click, click.
280
00:15:30,404 --> 00:15:34,384
You can just ask compelling questions
and find a way, a consequential way
281
00:15:34,384 --> 00:15:38,024
for them to answer those questions,
and sometimes it's offline.
282
00:15:38,024 --> 00:15:40,224
Sometimes it's go have a
conversation with your boss.
283
00:15:40,224 --> 00:15:44,384
Sometimes it's have a conversation or
get a story from someone else about a bad
284
00:15:44,584 --> 00:15:46,304
customer service experience they've had.
285
00:15:47,034 --> 00:15:50,744
These types of things can happen offline
and, sort of, add to that experience.
286
00:15:50,964 --> 00:15:54,904
So yeah, authenticity is key
and I think stories can lend
287
00:15:54,904 --> 00:15:56,504
to, definitely lend to that.
288
00:15:56,764 --> 00:15:59,814
But a story isn't always just
A to B, it's also involving.
289
00:15:59,814 --> 00:16:02,384
It can involve other people
and the environment as well.
290
00:16:03,109 --> 00:16:06,123
Yeah, sure, and, and you, you know,
you shared about, so like from the
291
00:16:06,123 --> 00:16:11,068
facilitator, you know, thinking of stories
to incorporate in the learning experience,
292
00:16:11,088 --> 00:16:15,948
but then also inviting learners to share
participants to share their stories.
293
00:16:16,368 --> 00:16:18,308
So, I'm wondering if you
could speak a little bit about
294
00:16:18,308 --> 00:16:19,758
that and what you've noticed?
295
00:16:20,178 --> 00:16:22,878
You know, how that affects the way
that they connect with each other?
296
00:16:23,448 --> 00:16:26,808
Whether you've noticed vulnerability,
empathy coming into play
297
00:16:26,808 --> 00:16:27,971
there with the story sharing?
298
00:16:28,583 --> 00:16:32,386
So, you know, I, I stress this
all the time, that the point of
299
00:16:32,386 --> 00:16:35,226
storytelling is not for you to
get up there and tell a story.
300
00:16:35,456 --> 00:16:37,146
That is absolutely not the point.
301
00:16:37,566 --> 00:16:40,586
The point is for you to create an
environment where people feel comfortable,
302
00:16:40,856 --> 00:16:45,666
even if I would say sharing their stories
would be great, but it's also just tapping
303
00:16:45,926 --> 00:16:47,666
in, so they don't have to do it verbally.
304
00:16:48,381 --> 00:16:52,761
But just tapping into a memory
of that, if she felt that, then I
305
00:16:52,761 --> 00:16:54,241
felt that I can feel that as well.
306
00:16:55,011 --> 00:16:59,811
So yeah, there's that story that I
tell in the beginning of the book about
307
00:16:59,951 --> 00:17:04,771
how I was, but some of this may have
been before, teaching managers, even
308
00:17:04,771 --> 00:17:06,531
though I had never managed before.
309
00:17:07,301 --> 00:17:10,561
And, one thing that came up, I
developed this class, one of my, I
310
00:17:10,561 --> 00:17:14,521
still consider it my, my flagship
course, the first comprehensive course
311
00:17:14,561 --> 00:17:15,841
I created was in project management.
312
00:17:16,741 --> 00:17:20,641
And so, I created all these, I was really
heavily into the Sims, so I started.
313
00:17:20,821 --> 00:17:24,121
If it weren't for the Sims, I wouldn't
be the designer I am now, because the
314
00:17:24,311 --> 00:17:29,486
Sims definitely helped me understand
sort of spatial space and narrative
315
00:17:29,506 --> 00:17:35,121
and flow and connection is really
the how I learned all of this really.
316
00:17:35,501 --> 00:17:39,841
So, I was just into that and I said, "I'm
gonna dabble in scenarios," and I'm gonna
317
00:17:39,841 --> 00:17:41,081
have all these different characters.
318
00:17:41,581 --> 00:17:45,801
And, I had one character who was
very hostile, you know, throughout.
319
00:17:46,061 --> 00:17:49,881
And, you know, it was just sort of like
a character I came up with, but it really
320
00:17:50,101 --> 00:17:54,658
became sort of typical in that the, the
group that had the hostile character
321
00:17:55,024 --> 00:17:57,334
talked the most, they connected the most.
322
00:17:58,364 --> 00:18:01,184
The ones that had the good
characters barely even engaged.
323
00:18:01,324 --> 00:18:05,904
And, I'm like, isn't that typical
that the employees that are the worst
324
00:18:06,134 --> 00:18:09,624
take up all of our energy and then
we wonder why the good one quits?
325
00:18:10,084 --> 00:18:12,024
And, this one says we've
ignored the good one.
326
00:18:12,024 --> 00:18:15,264
So, that sort of almost became,
became a part of it, right?
327
00:18:15,964 --> 00:18:23,154
And so, sometimes, some groups would get
so angry with this fictional character;
328
00:18:23,644 --> 00:18:27,259
and it didn't occur to me until years
later that what they were doing was they
329
00:18:27,259 --> 00:18:29,939
were tapping into their own memories.
330
00:18:29,939 --> 00:18:33,059
They were giving this woman backstories
that obviously did not exist.
331
00:18:34,379 --> 00:18:35,139
I didn't say that.
332
00:18:35,499 --> 00:18:40,259
I didn't say that she, you know, was
a divorced alcoholic like you are
333
00:18:40,649 --> 00:18:43,339
referring back to someone in your life.
334
00:18:43,449 --> 00:18:47,379
That your manager that you had that
were bringing, was bringing home their
335
00:18:47,409 --> 00:18:49,579
home stress and dumping it on your team.
336
00:18:49,689 --> 00:18:54,509
Like, that's what you are connecting
this with, and I thought, wow, this
337
00:18:54,509 --> 00:18:55,909
is, this is sort of interesting.
338
00:18:56,329 --> 00:19:02,689
But one thing that I had to do was, you
know, I think the thing that reminded me
339
00:19:02,719 --> 00:19:07,249
what this character came from was, that it
was, I was earlier in my career, but way
340
00:19:07,249 --> 00:19:09,609
earlier than that, I was that character.
341
00:19:09,919 --> 00:19:13,789
Like I was her cause I was mad
that I had a degree and I had
342
00:19:13,789 --> 00:19:14,949
a job that I didn't wanna have.
343
00:19:15,249 --> 00:19:18,309
And so, I was, I was kind of hostile,
you know, in that environment.
344
00:19:18,329 --> 00:19:22,549
And so, I began to take offense that
they were taking offense to her.
345
00:19:23,289 --> 00:19:26,989
And so, I remember once in one
class, I just had to just stop and
346
00:19:27,289 --> 00:19:29,109
say "lets stop this for a minute".
347
00:19:30,049 --> 00:19:34,389
The goal is not to run to a,
her name is Darla, the goal
348
00:19:34,449 --> 00:19:37,639
is not to run to fire, Darla.
349
00:19:37,639 --> 00:19:39,764
Cause that's all they were
coming, how can we get rid of her?
350
00:19:39,764 --> 00:19:40,524
That's not the goal.
351
00:19:40,604 --> 00:19:42,884
I was like, if you've ever tried
to just fire someone for the
352
00:19:43,004 --> 00:19:46,004
attitude, good luck, because that's
not the way this works anyway.
353
00:19:46,664 --> 00:19:50,364
And so, we were able to, sort
of, talk about her in a way of
354
00:19:50,514 --> 00:19:52,284
what is, what is Darla afraid of?
355
00:19:52,554 --> 00:19:53,124
Like what?
356
00:19:53,984 --> 00:19:56,524
Why do you think she's reacting that way?
357
00:19:56,904 --> 00:20:00,384
And so, as we begin to talk, the
people at the table begin to really
358
00:20:00,384 --> 00:20:03,871
go, she's making me feel incompetent.
359
00:20:04,526 --> 00:20:04,876
Right.
360
00:20:05,006 --> 00:20:08,796
She's making me, so they completely
divorced her themselves from what Darla
361
00:20:08,796 --> 00:20:13,396
was happening and focus only on her
inability; and again, she didn't exist,
362
00:20:13,816 --> 00:20:19,316
but her inability to do her job and
my inability to get her to do their
363
00:20:19,316 --> 00:20:24,276
job made me feel like a bad manager;
and that's what I'm mad about, which
364
00:20:24,276 --> 00:20:26,956
sort of goes back to why they even
took the class in the first place.
365
00:20:27,458 --> 00:20:31,958
You know, so all this, just from this
one character, all these emotions
366
00:20:31,958 --> 00:20:35,438
were able to, to come up and be
addressed that weren't part of my
367
00:20:35,438 --> 00:20:36,998
design, that weren't part of the class.
368
00:20:37,198 --> 00:20:39,238
I thought they would just be
like, ah, ha ha, funny kid.
369
00:20:39,258 --> 00:20:39,558
You know?
370
00:20:39,708 --> 00:20:40,998
They were getting really in sense.
371
00:20:41,058 --> 00:20:46,748
So, yeah, that was a, a, you know, a
good example to me of how I was able to
372
00:20:46,748 --> 00:20:51,363
just, even unknowingly, use something
like that to really trigger emotions;
373
00:20:51,363 --> 00:20:55,043
and then, the social aspects of it,
of them working together; and then,
374
00:20:55,193 --> 00:20:59,563
them able to reflect and examine what
was really, what was really happening
375
00:20:59,793 --> 00:21:03,603
between this fictional character of them
and then everyone else and their team.
376
00:21:04,448 --> 00:21:05,538
That, that's powerful.
377
00:21:05,638 --> 00:21:09,288
You were able to tap into everybody's
workplace trauma all at once.
378
00:21:09,308 --> 00:21:12,483
You know, and here I am 27,
like what's everybody's problem?
379
00:21:12,588 --> 00:21:16,208
And even, you, you were facilitating,
you were facilitating on your own
380
00:21:16,208 --> 00:21:19,528
workplace trauma was activated,
so that's like unintentional.
381
00:21:22,263 --> 00:21:23,563
You know, it's, it's funny.
382
00:21:23,613 --> 00:21:24,063
Yeah.
383
00:21:24,063 --> 00:21:24,433
So,
384
00:21:25,073 --> 00:21:29,838
It just really honors that we come to work
and to learning at work with all of our
385
00:21:29,838 --> 00:21:31,598
stories and all of our experiences, right?
386
00:21:31,658 --> 00:21:34,958
And so, like you said, whether we
like intentionally say, tell me your
387
00:21:34,958 --> 00:21:38,078
story, you know, like whether it's
like, tell the story or think of
388
00:21:38,078 --> 00:21:39,718
the story, the stories are there.
389
00:21:39,778 --> 00:21:45,198
So, I just really love that you're making
space for emotion and for past experience.
390
00:21:45,606 --> 00:21:49,533
Yeah, and it's I have this, one
of the reason why a lot of people
391
00:21:49,533 --> 00:21:51,933
are resistant to so is 'cause
they don't wanna be vulnerable.
392
00:21:51,933 --> 00:21:53,573
They don't wanna, and
they're worried about it.
393
00:21:54,233 --> 00:21:58,293
And so, one of my classes I have like
this line where it's like open and
394
00:21:58,363 --> 00:22:02,928
nope, you know, where anagram of one
another, where you need to know where
395
00:22:02,928 --> 00:22:04,488
the line is, where you're gonna be open.
396
00:22:04,668 --> 00:22:08,368
And then, there's this, I'm not gonna
touch this, but this is the, this
397
00:22:08,368 --> 00:22:13,568
is the thing, the more skill, the
more intentional skill you develop
398
00:22:13,588 --> 00:22:18,488
in storytelling, the note begins to
shrink and the open begins because
399
00:22:18,488 --> 00:22:21,048
you know what your triggers are.
400
00:22:21,348 --> 00:22:24,808
You know how far you wanna go, and
once you develop a skill around it.
401
00:22:25,528 --> 00:22:30,458
Then you're absolutely able to say,
you know, carve out a piece of this
402
00:22:30,468 --> 00:22:32,978
story, but leave this piece alone.
403
00:22:33,838 --> 00:22:36,658
You know, because I know that
I don't wanna open that up.
404
00:22:36,868 --> 00:22:40,418
First of all, it may just open up so
much, not just for you, but like with
405
00:22:40,468 --> 00:22:44,234
Darla, you know, here I'm innocently
offering this sacrificial lamb, and
406
00:22:44,234 --> 00:22:48,714
it just completely opened up all these
things that I didn't know would open up.
407
00:22:49,504 --> 00:22:52,604
So, these things may not just
open things for you, but for
408
00:22:52,604 --> 00:22:54,244
the people in the room as well.
409
00:22:54,544 --> 00:22:58,551
So, I would, there is one end, I
would say be careful, but I would also
410
00:22:58,651 --> 00:23:00,311
say it's really more about intent.
411
00:23:00,808 --> 00:23:04,828
You know, there's being careful,
but there's also being intentional
412
00:23:04,958 --> 00:23:07,188
about what you wanna trigger.
413
00:23:07,188 --> 00:23:10,268
Because at the end of the day,
that's all you have is intent.
414
00:23:10,288 --> 00:23:12,068
You know, people say, what's
the point of the story?
415
00:23:12,068 --> 00:23:12,788
What is your point?
416
00:23:13,708 --> 00:23:16,908
I personally believe that point
belongs to the listener.
417
00:23:16,928 --> 00:23:20,508
It doesn't belong, I can't dictate what
the point in my story is gonna be to you.
418
00:23:20,928 --> 00:23:25,228
And, we all know this, because we've
told stories to people; and then, they,
419
00:23:25,528 --> 00:23:28,028
you know, you tell this whole story and
they're like, what happened to the puppy?
420
00:23:28,531 --> 00:23:28,881
Puppy?
421
00:23:29,341 --> 00:23:31,561
You mean the puppy I mentioned in
the very beginning like, there's
422
00:23:31,561 --> 00:23:32,561
nothing to do with the puppy.
423
00:23:32,671 --> 00:23:34,481
What are you talking about a puppy for?
424
00:23:34,621 --> 00:23:38,891
You know, but they, because they
really are worried about these puppies,
425
00:23:39,201 --> 00:23:42,601
that is, they're filtering what I'm
saying through their own experience.
426
00:23:43,396 --> 00:23:44,366
What happened to the dog?
427
00:23:44,466 --> 00:23:46,686
You know, you're just like,
what are you talking about?
428
00:23:46,906 --> 00:23:48,406
So, they're gonna take away their point.
429
00:23:48,466 --> 00:23:51,646
So, there's different strategies you can
use to make your, bring your attention
430
00:23:51,706 --> 00:23:55,941
closer to the point, cause we, we want
our attention to come close to the point,
431
00:23:56,401 --> 00:23:57,981
you don't want it to completely match it.
432
00:23:57,981 --> 00:24:01,221
Again, cause in order for them
to really resonate with that
433
00:24:01,221 --> 00:24:03,341
story, they have to filter it.
434
00:24:03,401 --> 00:24:06,861
You want them to look inside
themselves and say, I've been there.
435
00:24:07,241 --> 00:24:08,701
You know, you wanna do that as well.
436
00:24:09,254 --> 00:24:11,334
So you don't have point, they have point.
437
00:24:11,474 --> 00:24:12,724
You have intention.
438
00:24:13,124 --> 00:24:15,814
So, all you can do is sit
forth on that, that intention.
439
00:24:16,234 --> 00:24:19,564
Yeah, I, I feel like the way
you receive a story is kind of
440
00:24:19,564 --> 00:24:22,924
personalized and it depends on your
life experience and the things.
441
00:24:23,584 --> 00:24:26,084
You know, it's like when you're watch
rewatching a movie, showing it to
442
00:24:26,084 --> 00:24:28,764
your friends, and like every time
there's a scene that you reacted to,
443
00:24:28,764 --> 00:24:31,484
you're like looking at them to see
if they reacted to it; and they're
444
00:24:31,484 --> 00:24:34,844
like, no, they're like, total calm;
and you're like, what do you mean?
445
00:24:34,844 --> 00:24:37,204
That was like the best part of the movie.
446
00:24:37,584 --> 00:24:40,439
So, definitely like a
personalized experience.
447
00:24:40,564 --> 00:24:45,004
Before I went on my own, I had
a of credit card debt and I knew
448
00:24:45,004 --> 00:24:46,124
that was the number one thing.
449
00:24:46,184 --> 00:24:49,444
So of course, you're supposed to save
money before you start a business,
450
00:24:49,464 --> 00:24:54,278
but I said, no, I'm actually going
to pay off my debt, instead, so I
451
00:24:54,278 --> 00:24:55,318
started a business with no savings.
452
00:24:55,548 --> 00:24:56,718
Instead, I pay off my debt.
453
00:24:57,118 --> 00:25:00,758
I since ran it back up, but the
point is, the point is, is that
454
00:25:00,938 --> 00:25:06,958
so in order to pay for it all, I
actually had two full-time jobs.
455
00:25:07,509 --> 00:25:12,469
One was remote and one was on
site, but they were headquartered
456
00:25:12,469 --> 00:25:13,309
in the same building.
457
00:25:13,603 --> 00:25:17,623
So, there was an interesting intricacy
of how that actually occurred, but
458
00:25:17,703 --> 00:25:19,103
I was working them at the same time.
459
00:25:19,883 --> 00:25:23,703
Now, later, I did it for about a year
and had enough money to pay off my debt.
460
00:25:23,883 --> 00:25:29,278
Now, for a few years later, I
began to tell that story and to
461
00:25:29,278 --> 00:25:31,278
me, I'm just, I'm a American hero.
462
00:25:31,558 --> 00:25:35,318
I mean, that's, that's an amazing
thing to do like that's, that's
463
00:25:35,318 --> 00:25:40,038
awesome and great because working two
jobs to me is an exemplary example.
464
00:25:40,098 --> 00:25:44,958
Why everyone, every family member I've
ever had has had two jobs, three jobs.
465
00:25:45,798 --> 00:25:48,478
I worked two jobs for
years and years and years.
466
00:25:48,908 --> 00:25:52,078
That is the most basic thing
you can do is work two jobs.
467
00:25:52,318 --> 00:25:54,478
I don't know how else you're gonna
get the money if you can't just
468
00:25:54,478 --> 00:25:56,838
call up your parents and be like
giving, like, I couldn't do that.
469
00:25:56,918 --> 00:25:57,558
I had no net.
470
00:25:57,918 --> 00:25:59,108
So I had to make a net.
471
00:25:59,978 --> 00:26:03,018
I remember the first time I wrote this
story in one of my graduate classes.
472
00:26:03,138 --> 00:26:08,818
I have a master's in writing I got 10
years ago, and the people in the room were
473
00:26:08,818 --> 00:26:12,098
like, "oh my God, you're so, you're so,
I wish I could do something like that".
474
00:26:12,878 --> 00:26:14,818
Now, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
475
00:26:15,498 --> 00:26:17,838
So, I get the feedback cause you
know, we had to write feedback,
476
00:26:17,858 --> 00:26:19,518
actual feedback on the back, right?
477
00:26:19,578 --> 00:26:22,558
So, I remember I went to Corner
Bakery and I had my little lunch.
478
00:26:22,718 --> 00:26:25,858
I said, "let me read this
glowing phrase for this story,"
479
00:26:26,208 --> 00:26:28,878
not just for my incredible
writing, but for me as a person.
480
00:26:29,298 --> 00:26:31,308
They went off on me.
481
00:26:31,901 --> 00:26:34,081
Everyone was like, "what?
482
00:26:34,901 --> 00:26:36,141
Isn't that like stealing?
483
00:26:36,791 --> 00:26:38,181
Isn't it stealing time?
484
00:26:38,281 --> 00:26:39,821
You lied to all those people.
485
00:26:39,841 --> 00:26:40,861
You've lied to your mom".
486
00:26:41,706 --> 00:26:43,876
I was completely floored.
487
00:26:44,596 --> 00:26:45,756
I thought, "okay, they're just jealous".
488
00:26:46,136 --> 00:26:51,246
As years gone on, I've told this story
again and I get the same reaction.
489
00:26:51,656 --> 00:26:53,796
People are just offended.
490
00:26:54,496 --> 00:26:57,556
And, you know, now of course,
we talk about sort of the quiet
491
00:26:57,796 --> 00:26:58,676
quitting and all that stuff.
492
00:26:58,736 --> 00:27:01,756
So, this was before then, but like
you're the reason why people don't let
493
00:27:01,756 --> 00:27:03,716
people work remote and this, all of that.
494
00:27:04,056 --> 00:27:05,796
So, I was really surprised.
495
00:27:05,796 --> 00:27:06,796
Never to my face though.
496
00:27:06,926 --> 00:27:08,916
Never once to my face,
always in the feedback.
497
00:27:08,916 --> 00:27:09,996
You're so great in the feedback.
498
00:27:10,136 --> 00:27:14,336
You are terrible, ethically wrong, you
know, and I get two things from that.
499
00:27:14,396 --> 00:27:15,096
Two things from that.
500
00:27:15,156 --> 00:27:17,256
One is that's why I, sort of,
learned that again, people are
501
00:27:17,256 --> 00:27:20,991
listening through their experience
like they, they just can't imagine.
502
00:27:21,311 --> 00:27:24,671
I think my, my, the editor of my book,
cause I was gonna put it in my book,
503
00:27:24,671 --> 00:27:28,431
but I took it out 'cause the editor
wrote this doesn't make you sound
504
00:27:28,431 --> 00:27:29,671
like you think, it makes you sound.
505
00:27:32,661 --> 00:27:32,951
What?
506
00:27:33,654 --> 00:27:36,064
Okay, so I took it out like
I'm not dealing with it.
507
00:27:36,164 --> 00:27:39,584
So, years later, I, sort of, reflected
on that and think two things.
508
00:27:39,804 --> 00:27:43,024
One is that again, people are filtering
through their own experience as I
509
00:27:43,024 --> 00:27:44,544
filtered that experience through mine.
510
00:27:45,529 --> 00:27:49,829
But one thing in the story that
I never put, I never talked about
511
00:27:50,529 --> 00:27:55,189
the reason I did it was because I,
it was a trauma informed response.
512
00:27:56,109 --> 00:27:59,709
I had no choice and I was the one
working a hundred hours a week.
513
00:28:00,309 --> 00:28:05,309
I was the one who gave up everything, you
know, to make sure that my coworkers were
514
00:28:05,309 --> 00:28:07,999
still supported, and yet, I could do this.
515
00:28:08,399 --> 00:28:09,229
I never talked about that.
516
00:28:09,629 --> 00:28:11,739
I was just like, aha, I
have two jobs and you don't.
517
00:28:12,149 --> 00:28:17,289
You know, so there was that emotional
piece that I never revealed and
518
00:28:17,309 --> 00:28:18,929
how vulnerable that left me.
519
00:28:19,549 --> 00:28:23,469
Not only was I vulnerable before, but
possibly made myself be more vulnerable.
520
00:28:23,469 --> 00:28:24,049
I could have lost both.
521
00:28:24,109 --> 00:28:27,769
One time I was in the elevator with
both, both my bosses and they didn't
522
00:28:27,769 --> 00:28:30,969
know it, and I just, I everyone
do a whole sitcom about this.
523
00:28:31,649 --> 00:28:34,599
I was just like, do do so, hmm,
I'm going to get off on this
524
00:28:34,599 --> 00:28:37,039
random floor and just got off.
525
00:28:37,439 --> 00:28:40,239
I think there is a sitcom
there, Hadiya, like totally.
526
00:28:42,074 --> 00:28:44,754
I put myself in such
vulnerable positions there.
527
00:28:45,414 --> 00:28:49,594
So, you know, I, I guess the, the
ultimate point of this is, you know,
528
00:28:49,594 --> 00:28:52,434
that's when I learned both about the
filtering, but also learned about
529
00:28:52,534 --> 00:28:56,074
intent and what did I plan to get from
this, and how to tap into emotion.
530
00:28:56,934 --> 00:29:01,718
and do you think also what you chose
to tell about the story, right?
531
00:29:01,858 --> 00:29:05,958
Did not match your intent, like what
you were trying to get of the audience?
532
00:29:06,963 --> 00:29:10,443
My intent was that you were
going to think I was amazing.
533
00:29:10,873 --> 00:29:15,103
That was only, to be honest, to be real,
I wanted you to think, because in my
534
00:29:15,103 --> 00:29:18,903
mind to be able to pull something off
at the time, and I'm being honest, I
535
00:29:18,903 --> 00:29:20,343
just wanted you to think I was amazing.
536
00:29:21,163 --> 00:29:27,103
and when that didn't match, that really
set of what, what is happening here?
537
00:29:27,443 --> 00:29:30,303
And, you know at the time I didn't
really know about like emotion and
538
00:29:30,303 --> 00:29:31,983
story and the filtering and all that.
539
00:29:32,243 --> 00:29:34,303
So, I, sort of, learned to
do that through that process.
540
00:29:34,683 --> 00:29:38,386
But it, that was my intent,
but they got a different point.
541
00:29:39,026 --> 00:29:42,453
They got a different point
and purpose altogether.
542
00:29:42,673 --> 00:29:46,093
And a part of it's because of
the way I told it and omitted
543
00:29:46,273 --> 00:29:47,693
and chose to keep and not keep.
544
00:29:48,191 --> 00:29:48,481
Yeah,
545
00:29:48,566 --> 00:29:52,436
You, you didn't talk about the struggle
that people could identify with, the part
546
00:29:52,436 --> 00:29:53,986
where you were working a hundred hours.
547
00:29:54,166 --> 00:29:58,426
The part where you were trying to, you met
all the expectations of your coworkers.
548
00:29:58,686 --> 00:30:01,506
The part where you needed it because
it was a trauma response, right?
549
00:30:01,926 --> 00:30:05,356
So people weren't able to
fully connect with that.
550
00:30:05,356 --> 00:30:06,841
It was, I stuck with the details.
551
00:30:06,841 --> 00:30:09,386
The struggle that you were
trying to give them wasn't like
552
00:30:10,076 --> 00:30:10,566
Exactly.
553
00:30:11,366 --> 00:30:15,526
I was, I stuck with the details
and didn't get to the core of that.
554
00:30:15,806 --> 00:30:18,486
I didn't, I talked about what
I gained, but not what I lost.
555
00:30:19,256 --> 00:30:19,546
yeah.
556
00:30:19,786 --> 00:30:23,926
If I was cheating anybody, I was
cheating me because I couldn't do
557
00:30:24,566 --> 00:30:26,966
anything else during that time period.
558
00:30:27,316 --> 00:30:27,736
Mm-Hmm.
559
00:30:27,906 --> 00:30:31,446
But worked those two jobs and, and,
and absorbed that kind of stress.
560
00:30:32,168 --> 00:30:35,668
You know, my boss who was in Arizona,
you know, "hey Hadiya, I'm coming in town
561
00:30:35,868 --> 00:30:39,038
tomorrow, maybe we can have lunch," and
then looking at my calendar and seeing
562
00:30:39,118 --> 00:30:43,588
I have a meeting at lunch at my other
company, like that, you know, it sounds
563
00:30:43,588 --> 00:30:48,378
like, "oh, that's haha", but actually it
was extremely stressful and that was bad.
564
00:30:48,738 --> 00:30:51,948
That was bad, you know, but
I, who's gonna gimme money?
565
00:30:51,998 --> 00:30:54,018
Who's gonna help me, yeah, support that?
566
00:30:54,088 --> 00:30:58,068
You know, so you know, that's,
that, I learned a great lesson,
567
00:30:58,138 --> 00:31:04,948
obviously from, from that about, you
know, about intent versus purpose.
568
00:31:05,213 --> 00:31:06,023
It's storytelling.
569
00:31:06,521 --> 00:31:06,941
Mm-Hmm.
570
00:31:07,006 --> 00:31:07,296
Yeah.
571
00:31:07,794 --> 00:31:12,164
Your book delves into this, but I was
curious if you had any tips or strategies
572
00:31:12,164 --> 00:31:17,128
that you wanted to share about inviting
stories from participants or inviting them
573
00:31:17,148 --> 00:31:18,848
to reflect on their stories privately?
574
00:31:19,263 --> 00:31:19,553
Yeah.
575
00:31:19,839 --> 00:31:23,009
So, just like with, I remember,
and I think they still do this
576
00:31:23,019 --> 00:31:25,769
video, which is all the crazy
video, put a video in your course.
577
00:31:25,789 --> 00:31:27,369
We can make a video,
a video, video, video.
578
00:31:28,009 --> 00:31:31,534
But a video, watching the video
was a passive experience, you know,
579
00:31:31,834 --> 00:31:36,014
and so is storytelling if you're
just up there telling a story.
580
00:31:36,514 --> 00:31:41,994
So in one of the chapters I did about
inviting people in, you know, it could
581
00:31:41,994 --> 00:31:45,114
just be as simple as you stopping
and it could do this in e-learning
582
00:31:45,134 --> 00:31:49,194
as well for scenario as you stopping
and say, what do you think happened?
583
00:31:50,374 --> 00:31:55,914
And I think part of this is accepting
the fact that once the story comes
584
00:31:55,914 --> 00:31:57,754
out of your mouth is no longer yours.
585
00:31:58,414 --> 00:32:02,864
What you're doing now is creating the
story of them listening to you, right?
586
00:32:02,924 --> 00:32:06,864
So the story begins to morph and change,
which means that you have to give
587
00:32:07,014 --> 00:32:09,184
control away, and that's very tough.
588
00:32:09,324 --> 00:32:15,224
So, if I were to say, you know, I was
in this situation, I had, I was working
589
00:32:15,524 --> 00:32:20,324
the register and this customer came
in and immediately went ballistic.
590
00:32:20,784 --> 00:32:24,364
And of course, my urge is to keep
going, to tell you how this happened.
591
00:32:25,289 --> 00:32:29,139
Instead, if you stop and say,
what do you think happened next?
592
00:32:29,289 --> 00:32:30,179
What would you have done?
593
00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:31,219
Has that happened to you?
594
00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:35,179
Now, of course they could derail
you and just kind of go, no, you
595
00:32:35,179 --> 00:32:39,459
know, or, you know, come up with
something that they say they said or
596
00:32:39,459 --> 00:32:41,099
did that was just amazing, you know.
597
00:32:41,399 --> 00:32:44,859
So, you have to know how to
wrangle back control after that.
598
00:32:45,249 --> 00:32:47,979
That would've been a good idea,
but this is what I did instead.
599
00:32:48,119 --> 00:32:48,419
You know?
600
00:32:48,519 --> 00:32:52,739
So how do you get them to just the
different key points of the story
601
00:32:52,759 --> 00:32:54,549
as you, as you're moving along?
602
00:32:54,909 --> 00:32:56,284
What do you think happened next?
603
00:32:56,514 --> 00:32:57,304
What would you do?
604
00:32:57,534 --> 00:32:59,704
Have you ever been in
this situation before?
605
00:33:00,524 --> 00:33:04,424
And, I find that's a pretty effective
way to get them to start thinking and
606
00:33:04,424 --> 00:33:08,424
really can immediately, you're asking
them to connect this scenario to you.
607
00:33:09,684 --> 00:33:11,784
Or just how would you
feel if that happened?
608
00:33:12,724 --> 00:33:16,421
You know, so even if they aren't,
you know, they haven't been in that
609
00:33:16,661 --> 00:33:18,821
situation, they've never worked
in cash yet registered before.
610
00:33:19,776 --> 00:33:23,906
That helps you get to that core again
of you felt helpless before, I bet.
611
00:33:24,246 --> 00:33:28,073
You know, you felt disrespected, you
felt I didn't know what to do before.
612
00:33:28,773 --> 00:33:33,633
So, even bringing out those questions
can help navigate, help you navigate
613
00:33:33,633 --> 00:33:38,633
that, that connection between what you're
saying, the story and their experiences.
614
00:33:39,666 --> 00:33:43,386
I really love that way of inviting
them into the story and having them
615
00:33:43,386 --> 00:33:44,866
connect it to their own experience.
616
00:33:45,006 --> 00:33:48,546
And, it is so much less passive,
you know, when you integrate that.
617
00:33:49,216 --> 00:33:49,506
Yeah.
618
00:33:49,701 --> 00:33:52,281
And, you have to be ready for
what they bring in as well.
619
00:33:52,701 --> 00:33:54,761
And, some people could just
start over their whole story.
620
00:33:54,771 --> 00:33:55,921
Lemme tell you what happened to me.
621
00:33:55,921 --> 00:33:56,841
It's like, no, that's not.
622
00:33:58,281 --> 00:34:02,611
I had a very specific question, I wanna
answer to only that question, you know,
623
00:34:02,611 --> 00:34:07,631
so you have to, that's facilitation
skill's, such a lost art, you know, and
624
00:34:07,691 --> 00:34:12,994
the book really focuses on facilitation,
not necessarily design, because I just
625
00:34:12,994 --> 00:34:18,204
think it's such a lost art, and it's
something that is real difficult to do.
626
00:34:18,204 --> 00:34:21,674
I know, I think sometimes in L&D,
there's this hierarchy of where the
627
00:34:21,674 --> 00:34:25,088
facilit, it's like LMS, administrator,
facilitator, Instructional Designer.
628
00:34:25,408 --> 00:34:30,228
But that facilitation skill
is just, it's one of the most
629
00:34:30,228 --> 00:34:31,348
difficult things you can do.
630
00:34:31,671 --> 00:34:33,891
So that, that requires that as well.
631
00:34:34,781 --> 00:34:37,551
Yeah, and there's a quote from your
book I just wanna read really quickly
632
00:34:37,691 --> 00:34:39,511
and then ask a question about it.
633
00:34:39,621 --> 00:34:43,411
You wrote, "Creating an environment
where everyone feels comfortable
634
00:34:43,851 --> 00:34:47,211
laughing and swapping stories with
one another is fuel for learning".
635
00:34:47,594 --> 00:34:48,014
Mm-Hmm.
636
00:34:48,164 --> 00:34:51,344
I'm curious how can we create, you
know, social learning experiences that
637
00:34:51,344 --> 00:34:53,024
make people feel this level of comfort?
638
00:34:53,364 --> 00:34:56,424
And, you know, ideally, there's laughter
and sharing and things like that.
639
00:34:57,179 --> 00:34:58,789
Well, you absolutely set the tone.
640
00:34:59,609 --> 00:35:02,989
You having a good time
teaching this course?
641
00:35:03,789 --> 00:35:07,789
I think as the facilitator, I think that's
the, that's the number one thing, engaging
642
00:35:07,819 --> 00:35:09,429
with people, not shutting them down.
643
00:35:10,119 --> 00:35:16,238
Even how you facilitate their interactions
with, with one another, encouraging them
644
00:35:16,298 --> 00:35:20,168
to talk to each other; going over there,
seeing how they're talking and engaging.
645
00:35:20,488 --> 00:35:25,091
It really is you having a good
time, you laughing, you joking, and
646
00:35:25,091 --> 00:35:28,691
then you know, to their comments,
you know, joking or whatever.
647
00:35:29,531 --> 00:35:31,051
I think you set the tone.
648
00:35:31,121 --> 00:35:35,716
What you're doing is the way the
course will go if you're very dry
649
00:35:35,816 --> 00:35:39,676
and all that, then they're just not,
they're not gonna feel the vibe.
650
00:35:39,856 --> 00:35:41,236
We don't feel open enough to do that.
651
00:35:41,356 --> 00:35:42,556
I mean, some people never will.
652
00:35:42,696 --> 00:35:46,226
You know, I say the Western
school system did this to us.
653
00:35:46,296 --> 00:35:49,756
You know, where this is how
school is supposed to happen.
654
00:35:49,866 --> 00:35:51,636
This is a serious space.
655
00:35:51,896 --> 00:35:54,036
And sometimes, it is,
sometimes it is serious.
656
00:35:54,726 --> 00:35:57,286
I would say it's always serious,
but I say I take the content
657
00:35:57,286 --> 00:35:59,551
serious, but not myself, right?
658
00:35:59,611 --> 00:36:03,191
So, I don't take myself seriously
in that way, in that, you know, part
659
00:36:03,191 --> 00:36:08,351
of what I'm here to do is to help us
navigate this, but I wanna set the tone
660
00:36:08,491 --> 00:36:11,414
of what the, what the content requires.
661
00:36:12,214 --> 00:36:15,414
Again, it goes back to that authenticity
of what kind of environment they're
662
00:36:15,414 --> 00:36:17,334
gonna be working in ultimately.
663
00:36:18,034 --> 00:36:24,074
And as much as I can connect the tone to
that, it is good, but you know, again, I
664
00:36:24,074 --> 00:36:28,714
think you setting the pace of you having
a good time, encourages them to as well.
665
00:36:29,484 --> 00:36:32,044
I really like what you said about that
setting that tone, and like you said,
666
00:36:32,074 --> 00:36:36,964
when you set a serious tone, you're not
setting your audience up to be vulnerable.
667
00:36:36,964 --> 00:36:39,644
You're setting them up to be very,
like almost anxious, because if you're
668
00:36:39,644 --> 00:36:43,084
always serious, it's like you don't
really know if it's a safe space to
669
00:36:43,084 --> 00:36:46,524
really open up and show your emotions,
because, you know, like you said, we've
670
00:36:46,524 --> 00:36:50,679
been taught to be by this, by the book,
but sometimes it's not about by the
671
00:36:50,679 --> 00:36:53,239
book, it's about going off the book
and writing your own story with it.
672
00:36:53,299 --> 00:36:54,679
So, I really like what
you mentioned there.
673
00:36:55,434 --> 00:36:56,164
Yeah, yeah.
674
00:36:56,164 --> 00:37:00,924
And people are always, you know,
watching, like they watch your
675
00:37:00,924 --> 00:37:02,444
interactions with another student.
676
00:37:02,444 --> 00:37:05,964
Another student says something
vulnerable and they're, you know, people
677
00:37:05,964 --> 00:37:07,614
are watching and see how you react.
678
00:37:07,614 --> 00:37:09,669
What are you gonna say when that happened?
679
00:37:09,669 --> 00:37:11,309
How are other people reacting?
680
00:37:11,529 --> 00:37:14,069
you know, to see whether
or not is this safe?
681
00:37:14,289 --> 00:37:17,189
Is that, is he gonna be
punished for what he just did?
682
00:37:17,289 --> 00:37:19,509
Is he gonna be shot down
for what he just did?
683
00:37:19,819 --> 00:37:22,589
They're, they're, they're watching
and they're keeping track.
684
00:37:23,199 --> 00:37:28,099
And sometimes I have, you know, what I
call the slow packers where they won't
685
00:37:28,099 --> 00:37:31,564
say anything and at the end of the
class they're just like slowly packing.
686
00:37:31,564 --> 00:37:34,004
It's like, okay, this person
obviously wants everybody to leave
687
00:37:34,104 --> 00:37:35,444
so they can say something to me.
688
00:37:35,854 --> 00:37:39,554
And so, sometimes it just hap, it happens
at the end and you didn't think that they
689
00:37:39,554 --> 00:37:43,304
were paying any attention, but they were
really just engaged by watching other
690
00:37:43,584 --> 00:37:45,754
people sort of, you know, live that out.
691
00:37:45,934 --> 00:37:50,394
But yeah, it's really up to you as
the facilitator to, to set that tone.
692
00:37:51,241 --> 00:37:54,508
I think that one of the
strongest right connections.
693
00:37:54,508 --> 00:37:56,268
There's two of them,
there's sadness, right?
694
00:37:56,268 --> 00:37:59,268
Like when you're sad and
everybody's like feeling it and
695
00:37:59,268 --> 00:38:00,308
everybody's connected that way.
696
00:38:00,308 --> 00:38:01,068
But then laughter...
697
00:38:01,493 --> 00:38:01,913
mm-Hmm.
698
00:38:02,458 --> 00:38:05,548
When you laugh with other
people, it creates this sense
699
00:38:05,548 --> 00:38:07,471
of the connection is different.
700
00:38:07,506 --> 00:38:07,926
Mm-Hmm.
701
00:38:07,941 --> 00:38:11,121
Now, you feel like you can be
yourself, because now we can be
702
00:38:11,121 --> 00:38:13,481
silly and now we can joke about it.
703
00:38:13,541 --> 00:38:17,791
And now, and like facilitation
is an art and not everybody can
704
00:38:17,966 --> 00:38:20,121
right, facilitate things right?
705
00:38:20,121 --> 00:38:21,921
Like, but if you can make a room laugh.
706
00:38:22,286 --> 00:38:22,706
Mm-Hmm.
707
00:38:22,741 --> 00:38:27,711
If you can make a room laugh in
a training, you know about like
708
00:38:28,111 --> 00:38:32,231
software, that's a different
level of facilitation, you know?
709
00:38:32,406 --> 00:38:35,926
They laugh at the most
is recognition, you know.
710
00:38:36,096 --> 00:38:36,586
Exactly.
711
00:38:36,586 --> 00:38:38,296
Not you just up there telling a joke.
712
00:38:38,296 --> 00:38:40,266
It's, I've been through that.
713
00:38:40,646 --> 00:38:43,286
I've been through that and it
was, it was ridiculous then,
714
00:38:43,346 --> 00:38:46,086
and it's ridiculous now, and so,
715
00:38:46,196 --> 00:38:46,556
I know.
716
00:38:46,846 --> 00:38:51,171
You're almost forming a community
through those emotions, and that is
717
00:38:51,351 --> 00:38:54,021
really what the facilitator is doing.
718
00:38:54,211 --> 00:38:58,451
They are trying to create
community amongst strangers
719
00:38:58,521 --> 00:39:01,051
for this short sixteen hours.
720
00:39:01,051 --> 00:39:02,261
We're all in this together.
721
00:39:02,601 --> 00:39:08,321
We all, we may not know each other, but
we are all here to experience this as one.
722
00:39:08,901 --> 00:39:12,951
And, you bring all your stuff,
you bring everything with you, but
723
00:39:13,551 --> 00:39:16,581
here we're all together and here
we're experiencing the same thing.
724
00:39:16,801 --> 00:39:20,975
And, you know, that's, that's tough
to do, because first you need to feel.
725
00:39:21,175 --> 00:39:24,715
I mean, we have our own stuff, you
know, as facilitators, and, and
726
00:39:25,075 --> 00:39:27,895
you know, sometimes we're not great
at community, we're not great at
727
00:39:27,895 --> 00:39:30,095
feeling connected, just personally.
728
00:39:30,895 --> 00:39:35,495
So, you have to walk in there and,
sort of, show that and lead that.
729
00:39:35,915 --> 00:39:40,425
And, that's, it's not that easy
if it doesn't come natural to
730
00:39:40,425 --> 00:39:42,785
you as the leader in that regard.
731
00:39:43,665 --> 00:39:48,525
And, and being able to bring out in people
that feeling of like, "oh, I'm not the
732
00:39:48,525 --> 00:39:50,285
only one that feels the same about this".
733
00:39:50,555 --> 00:39:52,125
This whole room feels like this.
734
00:39:52,225 --> 00:39:55,685
So, I can actually speak my mind
now, because no one's gonna judge me,
735
00:39:55,888 --> 00:39:59,401
you know, sitting across my table,
because everybody feels like that.
736
00:39:59,401 --> 00:40:00,521
Everybody laughed at the joke.
737
00:40:00,581 --> 00:40:04,331
So, everybody has to feel the
same way that I feel about it.
738
00:40:04,551 --> 00:40:04,881
So,
739
00:40:04,911 --> 00:40:07,426
And then, when they ask you as a
facilitator, okay, what do we do about it?
740
00:40:07,426 --> 00:40:08,746
You say, I don't know, lunch.
741
00:40:09,886 --> 00:40:14,451
You don't always have the answer
of what they are going to ask you.
742
00:40:15,021 --> 00:40:16,521
You know, you know about that.
743
00:40:16,601 --> 00:40:19,868
I was at a session the other day
where she seemed to be getting
744
00:40:19,868 --> 00:40:21,908
everybody really sort of riled up.
745
00:40:22,648 --> 00:40:24,148
And have you experienced this?
746
00:40:24,148 --> 00:40:24,988
You experienced that?
747
00:40:25,008 --> 00:40:25,948
You experienced this?
748
00:40:25,978 --> 00:40:26,268
Yeah.
749
00:40:27,138 --> 00:40:27,428
Okay.
750
00:40:27,488 --> 00:40:33,908
On the next slide, you didn't
really give them an outlet for this.
751
00:40:34,208 --> 00:40:37,788
So they've, it's not enough
to say we experienced it.
752
00:40:37,818 --> 00:40:42,068
It's gotta land somewhere, like there's
gotta be a landing point where we
753
00:40:42,068 --> 00:40:46,348
can, sort of, agree of at least we
can't go, and we're not gonna go march
754
00:40:46,348 --> 00:40:49,628
with pitchforks and, you know, try
to change it, you know, in that way.
755
00:40:50,088 --> 00:40:53,748
But the question is, how are
we able to cope with this?
756
00:40:53,938 --> 00:40:56,908
What are some strategies we
can use, even just in our mind
757
00:40:56,928 --> 00:40:58,148
to change our perspective?
758
00:40:58,908 --> 00:41:00,428
that's what I mean by don't open doors.
759
00:41:00,428 --> 00:41:01,068
You can't close.
760
00:41:02,003 --> 00:41:05,643
You know, I think that is, that's,
sort of, tricky sometimes when
761
00:41:05,643 --> 00:41:06,883
I do my storytelling coaching.
762
00:41:07,063 --> 00:41:08,843
My mother who lives with
me, she's in the next room.
763
00:41:08,843 --> 00:41:10,323
She's like, so what are
you a therapist now?
764
00:41:10,543 --> 00:41:13,483
I'm like, you know, maybe I'm
opening too many doors, because,
765
00:41:13,483 --> 00:41:14,683
you know, childhood never ends.
766
00:41:14,903 --> 00:41:18,763
So, a lot of the issues that people
are facing are from childhood.
767
00:41:19,663 --> 00:41:23,358
And, you know, you can't, there's
nothing, you know, they have to
768
00:41:23,358 --> 00:41:24,398
wanna do something with that.
769
00:41:24,498 --> 00:41:27,358
So, but you don't know when you're
gonna hit it until you're right there
770
00:41:27,428 --> 00:41:29,698
that you're like, " oh, I hit that".
771
00:41:30,158 --> 00:41:36,698
So yeah, it, you have to really make
sure that once you start supporting
772
00:41:36,698 --> 00:41:40,498
these environments and these communities
and vulnerabilities, and once they get
773
00:41:40,498 --> 00:41:44,058
there, they find some safety and some
psychological safety and some value
774
00:41:44,638 --> 00:41:46,538
of being in that experience with you.
775
00:41:47,075 --> 00:41:51,525
Yeah, and then, you know, you saying,
"everybody's gonna receive your story.
776
00:41:51,525 --> 00:41:53,525
They're gonna find a different
point to your story".
777
00:41:54,085 --> 00:41:57,305
But, there has to be a point to your
story as a facilitator too, like there
778
00:41:57,325 --> 00:42:00,625
has to be something actionable that
you're trying to get out of telling.
779
00:42:00,805 --> 00:42:01,395
It's intent.
780
00:42:01,835 --> 00:42:02,125
Yeah.
781
00:42:02,405 --> 00:42:03,335
It's intent, right?
782
00:42:03,365 --> 00:42:03,655
Like,
783
00:42:03,675 --> 00:42:03,965
Yeah.
784
00:42:04,205 --> 00:42:09,925
I picked this story for a reason,
and I want to, I, I, my hope is
785
00:42:09,925 --> 00:42:11,125
that you'll get this out of it.
786
00:42:11,225 --> 00:42:13,805
Now, sometimes again it get something
completely different and sometimes
787
00:42:13,805 --> 00:42:17,245
that's great, like the story with
Darla, you know, I just thought that
788
00:42:17,245 --> 00:42:21,045
they would just be like, ah, boohoo,
but something much bigger come, came
789
00:42:21,065 --> 00:42:24,995
out of it; and to be able to corral
that, you know, that's the thing.
790
00:42:25,135 --> 00:42:29,435
And so, now, when I, sort of, approach
it, I think, what is my intent here?
791
00:42:29,905 --> 00:42:31,915
What, why does this story exist?
792
00:42:33,035 --> 00:42:33,325
Yeah.
793
00:42:33,578 --> 00:42:39,878
In L&D, one thing I always say is we need
to focus on stories of transformation.
794
00:42:40,798 --> 00:42:41,218
Mm-Hmm.
795
00:42:41,498 --> 00:42:44,788
What that means is that a
change has had to occur.
796
00:42:44,798 --> 00:42:46,148
There needs to be a journey.
797
00:42:46,238 --> 00:42:48,588
Other than that, it's just
what to me separates the
798
00:42:48,588 --> 00:42:49,948
story from an anecdote, right?
799
00:42:50,588 --> 00:42:52,308
Anecdotes, just, I did
this and I did that.
800
00:42:52,378 --> 00:42:53,588
It's just a retelling.
801
00:42:53,588 --> 00:42:57,628
It's like a testimony of retelling of
things, which can be funny, which can be
802
00:42:57,828 --> 00:42:59,228
interesting, which we can learn from you.
803
00:42:59,368 --> 00:43:02,108
We can learn about you
through an anecdote, you know?
804
00:43:02,568 --> 00:43:06,808
But, you know, I, I always say when
it comes to, especially at leadership
805
00:43:06,968 --> 00:43:10,403
training and all that, when you're
telling personal stories is to think
806
00:43:10,753 --> 00:43:13,243
headlight, not spotlight, right?
807
00:43:13,583 --> 00:43:16,243
So the spotlight, if you're just
telling a story where it's just a
808
00:43:16,443 --> 00:43:21,363
spotlight on you, that's okay, but
it's not particularly interesting.
809
00:43:21,663 --> 00:43:25,563
But if you're able to take that light
and then use it as a guide for others,
810
00:43:26,463 --> 00:43:28,293
that's where it gets interesting.
811
00:43:28,293 --> 00:43:30,413
So, this is my life.
812
00:43:30,553 --> 00:43:33,403
This story is about me,
but it's not for me.
813
00:43:33,900 --> 00:43:34,590
It's for you.
814
00:43:35,290 --> 00:43:39,670
So, always be thinking of ways,
how can I take this experience
815
00:43:39,730 --> 00:43:41,030
and what I gained from it?
816
00:43:41,290 --> 00:43:43,870
How I changed and how
the change affected me?
817
00:43:44,330 --> 00:43:47,190
And, use that to shine a light
forward for other people.
818
00:43:47,890 --> 00:43:51,030
And, just thinking about that in
a way really, sort of, changes.
819
00:43:51,330 --> 00:43:54,110
And, sometimes I'll think it halfway
through a story and think, "oh
820
00:43:54,110 --> 00:43:55,430
wait a minute, Hadiya remember?
821
00:43:55,980 --> 00:43:57,475
Yeah, especially if I'm like entertaining.
822
00:43:57,655 --> 00:43:58,995
I'm just like, wait a minute.
823
00:43:58,995 --> 00:44:01,915
The point of this is not just for
you to be funny and entertaining.
824
00:44:01,935 --> 00:44:07,435
You have to really take a step back and
think, how is this going to help them?
825
00:44:07,435 --> 00:44:10,595
So, it always kind of
goes back to the change.
826
00:44:11,015 --> 00:44:14,435
It always, kind of, goes back to,
I was here, something happened.
827
00:44:14,855 --> 00:44:18,775
Now, I'm here and this is how
that knowledge that I gained,
828
00:44:19,705 --> 00:44:21,795
this is what I do now as a result.
829
00:44:21,795 --> 00:44:25,885
And, that's other than the transformation,
that's the most important part.
830
00:44:26,585 --> 00:44:30,445
So what, so what, so this happened
to you, you learned something
831
00:44:30,705 --> 00:44:34,525
and, well, so what this did is it
made me a better leader for this.
832
00:44:34,585 --> 00:44:35,645
It made me a better that.
833
00:44:35,705 --> 00:44:36,925
It made me a better communicator.
834
00:44:36,945 --> 00:44:40,485
It made me realize this, you know,
that is, that's sort of the key
835
00:44:40,485 --> 00:44:43,045
that this type of stories that
we, that we want people to tell.
836
00:44:44,136 --> 00:44:45,296
I think that's so impactful too.
837
00:44:45,296 --> 00:44:48,570
And like you said, that storyline
because it's easy to put a spotlight
838
00:44:48,670 --> 00:44:52,450
on yourself and say, yes, I got here
and this and that, but when you really
839
00:44:52,450 --> 00:44:56,410
share that struggle that you got to help
you get to that point and then show how
840
00:44:56,410 --> 00:44:58,330
that point got you to the next point.
841
00:44:58,750 --> 00:45:01,003
It really resonates with your audience.
842
00:45:01,083 --> 00:45:04,323
I think so much more, because they're
like seeing like, okay, we're all going
843
00:45:04,323 --> 00:45:07,923
through a different path in life, but
you struggled just as much as I did.
844
00:45:07,943 --> 00:45:11,923
And now, I have a guide almost,
or a mentor, that can show
845
00:45:11,923 --> 00:45:14,803
me the path and how to do it,
because I can relate to them now.
846
00:45:14,803 --> 00:45:17,843
And, it's something that you know, and if
you just go in there and be like, oh yeah,
847
00:45:17,843 --> 00:45:19,523
I did this and I'm like this great person.
848
00:45:19,873 --> 00:45:22,163
Okay, well that's cool, but I'm
not gonna resonate with you.
849
00:45:22,163 --> 00:45:24,963
But if you show me that, let's say
we went through a similar experience.
850
00:45:24,963 --> 00:45:27,363
Like you said, if we both went through
childhood trauma, we both went through
851
00:45:27,363 --> 00:45:31,683
a similar incident in the workplace and
we showed how we persevered through that
852
00:45:31,683 --> 00:45:35,723
experience and thrive from that, then
I think that's where that story really
853
00:45:35,793 --> 00:45:39,763
hits that message so much harder than
just being that person in the spotlight.
854
00:45:40,658 --> 00:45:40,948
Yeah.
855
00:45:41,168 --> 00:45:44,028
And not only is it instructive,
but it's also proof.
856
00:45:44,908 --> 00:45:47,668
That it's possible, and
sometimes that's all we need,
857
00:45:48,168 --> 00:45:49,558
because it's something magical.
858
00:45:49,788 --> 00:45:52,798
That change may have been something
like a, an incredible stroke of luck
859
00:45:52,828 --> 00:45:56,718
that you think, "well, I'm never
going to let that happen or never
860
00:45:56,718 --> 00:45:57,958
going to have that happen to me".
861
00:45:58,338 --> 00:46:01,638
But just the fact that, that person
survived that, and that, that could
862
00:46:01,658 --> 00:46:03,638
happen and that it is possible.
863
00:46:03,778 --> 00:46:08,043
And then, when you see yourself
in that person, that's when you're
864
00:46:08,043 --> 00:46:09,203
taking that, that person with you.
865
00:46:09,403 --> 00:46:12,363
Cause again, in L&D, that's,
that's usually the type of
866
00:46:12,363 --> 00:46:13,483
stories we're trying to tell.
867
00:46:13,483 --> 00:46:16,063
We're trying to take them with
us, not just impress them.
868
00:46:16,063 --> 00:46:19,413
And, you know, I mean, when I said
I started my career in tech, in
869
00:46:19,413 --> 00:46:24,323
computer tech support, you know, these
were, the instructors were the guys.
870
00:46:24,323 --> 00:46:27,903
It was usually guys with two beepers, you
know, beeper here, beeper there; and they
871
00:46:27,903 --> 00:46:30,343
would just tell these stories about how
they drove in the middle of the night to
872
00:46:30,503 --> 00:46:35,183
reboot a server and they were so brave
and their only point was to impress us.
873
00:46:35,898 --> 00:46:38,868
That was it, because they didn't
tell us why the server had to
874
00:46:38,868 --> 00:46:41,698
be rebooted or what they had to
do, or what else they had to do.
875
00:46:41,698 --> 00:46:42,648
It didn't matter.
876
00:46:42,858 --> 00:46:45,288
They just wanted you to know why.
877
00:46:45,328 --> 00:46:48,508
But in their mind, their intent
was that was educating you, but
878
00:46:48,508 --> 00:46:49,908
that, that's not what happened.
879
00:46:49,908 --> 00:46:52,508
The point I got was that you
wanted us to know that you
880
00:46:52,568 --> 00:46:55,028
are, know, amazing in that way.
881
00:46:55,128 --> 00:46:58,868
So, you know, sometimes people
who are very successful I is, they
882
00:46:59,148 --> 00:47:01,578
struggle to remember the journey.
883
00:47:01,578 --> 00:47:04,818
They kind of go, you know, I
wanted to do it so I did it.
884
00:47:04,848 --> 00:47:06,218
What are you referring to there?
885
00:47:06,288 --> 00:47:06,898
What is that?
886
00:47:07,078 --> 00:47:10,098
So, sometimes it's hard to
get people to remember, you
887
00:47:10,098 --> 00:47:10,858
know, what they went through.
888
00:47:11,198 --> 00:47:14,138
It also shows a vulnerability that
they don't really wanna share.
889
00:47:14,928 --> 00:47:16,978
So yeah, and sometimes it
doesn't happen like that.
890
00:47:17,008 --> 00:47:20,418
Like sometimes the story, you think
the story is framed, but I was this,
891
00:47:20,418 --> 00:47:21,898
and then 10 minutes later I was that.
892
00:47:22,158 --> 00:47:23,568
It may have been 20 years.
893
00:47:23,978 --> 00:47:27,508
You may have learned it several
times, that lesson over and over
894
00:47:27,508 --> 00:47:30,348
and over again, and you got it just
a little, little, little, little
895
00:47:30,348 --> 00:47:34,548
until you realize, oh, this is, this
is what that all meant ultimately.
896
00:47:34,728 --> 00:47:38,228
So, you know, it's, it's pointing
to different incidents in your
897
00:47:38,228 --> 00:47:41,938
life and then, sort of, pulling
them back to a larger meaning.
898
00:47:42,436 --> 00:47:48,383
Yeah, Yeah and, you know, if, if we take
it back to like training, those spotlight
899
00:47:48,493 --> 00:47:51,623
stories don't affect performance goals.
900
00:47:52,013 --> 00:47:52,363
Right.
901
00:47:52,408 --> 00:47:54,778
They do anything for
performance goals, right?
902
00:47:54,778 --> 00:47:56,738
Because what we, people
learn from struggle.
903
00:47:56,838 --> 00:48:00,498
You don't learn from like, everything
was nice and, you know, you learn more
904
00:48:00,498 --> 00:48:04,538
from your coworker's mistakes and the
things that they did and you're like,
905
00:48:04,538 --> 00:48:08,078
"oh, I'm never doing that", because, you
know, this person went through that.
906
00:48:08,198 --> 00:48:14,538
So, if the goal is that performance, then
showing that struggle and the mistakes
907
00:48:14,678 --> 00:48:18,418
is probably more effective than the same.
908
00:48:19,853 --> 00:48:22,733
Do you have any guidance for, because
you talked about, you know, vulnerability
909
00:48:23,073 --> 00:48:27,253
and the word that came to mind from Brene
Brown about the vulnerability hangover.
910
00:48:27,433 --> 00:48:30,133
So, you know, like, oh no,
like I told this story, maybe
911
00:48:30,173 --> 00:48:31,173
I wasn't ready to tell it.
912
00:48:31,433 --> 00:48:35,778
Do you, whether it's the facilitator
or the participants, do you provide
913
00:48:35,778 --> 00:48:37,378
any kind of guidance in advance?
914
00:48:37,638 --> 00:48:42,738
Or, do you have any strategies for like
determining what stories I should share,
915
00:48:42,758 --> 00:48:44,818
you know, in a given moment that I share?
916
00:48:45,670 --> 00:48:47,120
Yeah, it's interesting.
917
00:48:47,410 --> 00:48:50,310
You don't, I don't, I can't
remember I read so much of yourself.
918
00:48:50,350 --> 00:48:53,936
I don't know what came from me and what
came from her, but I always tell people,
919
00:48:53,936 --> 00:48:55,466
you don't owe the world a breakdown.
920
00:48:55,906 --> 00:48:58,976
When you talk about emotional, you
do not owe the world that at all.
921
00:48:59,076 --> 00:49:00,296
So, just start from that point.
922
00:49:00,396 --> 00:49:02,016
You do not owe them a breakdown.
923
00:49:02,906 --> 00:49:07,346
I think another thing too is sometimes
when we share those vulnerable moments,
924
00:49:08,046 --> 00:49:11,866
we are very, so much, sometimes
a little addicted to the reaction
925
00:49:11,926 --> 00:49:13,666
we think we're gonna get from it.
926
00:49:13,966 --> 00:49:17,906
And, I think she said, she said this on
some show where she said, "the victory
927
00:49:17,906 --> 00:49:20,706
of sharing your vulnerability", and I'm
paraphrasing, "the victory of sharing
928
00:49:20,706 --> 00:49:24,626
your vulnerability is that you did it
not from other people's reaction to it".
929
00:49:25,366 --> 00:49:28,746
You know, so I think that's, you
know, something to keep in mind
930
00:49:28,746 --> 00:49:31,146
as well, which kind of goes back
to why are you sharing this?
931
00:49:31,836 --> 00:49:33,846
What, what are you
really trying to do here?
932
00:49:34,066 --> 00:49:39,066
Are you, do you want people
to tap into their, their inner
933
00:49:39,106 --> 00:49:41,166
something and connect to you?
934
00:49:41,306 --> 00:49:44,966
Or, do you want, do you just want them to
know what you, what you went through and
935
00:49:45,106 --> 00:49:46,526
how impressed you they are about that?
936
00:49:46,526 --> 00:49:48,456
Like what is your intent there?
937
00:49:48,506 --> 00:49:49,286
I think that's one.
938
00:49:49,436 --> 00:49:55,425
It's again, that line between open and
note is being almost surgical about being
939
00:49:55,555 --> 00:50:00,905
self-aware enough to know I shouldn't talk
about this, so I should talk about that.
940
00:50:01,715 --> 00:50:05,975
And, what defense mechanisms do you have
in place that could be triggering that?
941
00:50:05,975 --> 00:50:09,455
So like, if I were in that situation
and I feel like I'm sharing something
942
00:50:09,455 --> 00:50:14,398
that I, there's a line that I feel like
I've crossed my, I'm gonna automatically
943
00:50:14,398 --> 00:50:15,838
start joking about it, right?
944
00:50:15,858 --> 00:50:19,838
In order to, sort of, that's my way
to backpedal, you know, away from it.
945
00:50:20,598 --> 00:50:25,038
That's kind of risky, because someone
could have been right on the precipice of
946
00:50:25,038 --> 00:50:29,318
like, yes, and you're sort of making light
of it, you know, at that point as well.
947
00:50:30,018 --> 00:50:31,758
So, there's a consequence to that.
948
00:50:31,818 --> 00:50:36,908
And, honestly, unfortunately, you kind
of learn that in public over time.
949
00:50:37,568 --> 00:50:42,548
You know, it's hard to know what you
can't talk about and when you can't talk
950
00:50:42,548 --> 00:50:45,708
about until you talk about it and go,
"I'm never talking about that again".
951
00:50:46,058 --> 00:50:50,828
You know, so that is, that is the,
that's like, you know, like that,
952
00:50:50,828 --> 00:50:56,388
that story about the working two jobs,
you know, I use that now as a story,
953
00:50:57,223 --> 00:51:01,603
you know, to instruct about story,
but before I told it as a story.
954
00:51:01,943 --> 00:51:08,403
You know, and it took me a long time
learn that that is not going to serve me.
955
00:51:08,403 --> 00:51:11,628
Even though, of course, in my
mind, I'm thinking, but I'm like,
956
00:51:11,628 --> 00:51:15,868
oh no, that's, that's not going
to, that's not going to serve me.
957
00:51:15,938 --> 00:51:21,188
It's, I would have to do too much
explaining and too much, know, norm
958
00:51:21,188 --> 00:51:26,468
setting for them to get it the way to,
for my, for my intent to meet the purpose.
959
00:51:27,448 --> 00:51:31,668
I'm gonna use, I'm gonna repurpose
that story for something else.
960
00:51:31,778 --> 00:51:34,908
Sometimes, it's just part of the story,
like, I'm just gonna talk about from,
961
00:51:35,008 --> 00:51:37,743
you know, step, you know, S to Z.
962
00:51:37,843 --> 00:51:41,583
I'm gonna leave out everything , you know,
you know, ahead of it that got me there.
963
00:51:41,803 --> 00:51:46,983
So, but, you know, the more, I think that
the, the, again, the more surgical you
964
00:51:46,983 --> 00:51:51,493
are and the more you're able to select
what you think is gonna work in that work.
965
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:57,370
You know, I think that just comes
with skill and time and distance.
966
00:51:57,770 --> 00:52:02,860
You know, distance, distance, distance
from that and gaining more perspective
967
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,340
on it and seeing, you know, was it
really as bad as I thought it would
968
00:52:07,340 --> 00:52:09,220
be, and what did I gain from that?
969
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:13,260
And sometimes, what you gain
from it is so important and so
970
00:52:13,260 --> 00:52:15,700
meaningful that it's worth it.
971
00:52:16,370 --> 00:52:19,380
It's worth the vulnerability
it's worth the risk.
972
00:52:19,510 --> 00:52:20,780
It's worth the share.
973
00:52:21,845 --> 00:52:24,455
Hadiya, this is a question for
you and also everybody here.
974
00:52:24,515 --> 00:52:27,775
Is there anything I didn't ask that,
you know, you really wanted to chat
975
00:52:27,775 --> 00:52:29,895
about or, you know, share on this topic?
976
00:52:30,906 --> 00:52:37,577
Well, I mentioned, when we had exchanged
beforehand, that one thing that
977
00:52:37,757 --> 00:52:39,457
I'm moving towards in storytelling.
978
00:52:39,457 --> 00:52:43,954
First of all is personal storytelling
as opposed to always in this
979
00:52:44,304 --> 00:52:48,091
sort of instructional design
sense, but personal storytelling.
980
00:52:48,671 --> 00:52:53,291
But also, many of us are in a
position where we have to get
981
00:52:53,291 --> 00:52:57,756
stories out of people or we have
to show them how to get stories.
982
00:52:57,786 --> 00:53:01,646
So, I am putting together, which
I'm gonna launch next March of
983
00:53:01,696 --> 00:53:05,976
2024, a story guide program.
984
00:53:06,996 --> 00:53:10,376
And so, what that does is not only
do you learn about storytelling,
985
00:53:10,396 --> 00:53:12,616
but it's assuming you have
some basic knowledge in it.
986
00:53:13,516 --> 00:53:17,256
But, the whole point of it is
to teach you how to help people
987
00:53:17,436 --> 00:53:19,096
to navigate these discussions.
988
00:53:19,196 --> 00:53:20,976
And, you can use it if you're a coach.
989
00:53:21,196 --> 00:53:25,261
You can use it in just your regular,
just for yourself or to help your friends
990
00:53:25,261 --> 00:53:29,421
through interviews, or when you're working
with subject matter experts and you're
991
00:53:29,421 --> 00:53:31,651
trying to get information out of them.
992
00:53:32,061 --> 00:53:35,301
You can use these strategies
as a way to do that.
993
00:53:35,321 --> 00:53:37,761
And, that's not something
that you see a lot.
994
00:53:37,781 --> 00:53:41,581
Usually, all the, all the curriculars
based on you learning how to tell a story.
995
00:53:42,446 --> 00:53:45,306
But, that's not always what I'm
trying to do, like I'm trying
996
00:53:45,306 --> 00:53:46,506
to get you to tell the story.
997
00:53:47,336 --> 00:53:48,106
It's not the same.
998
00:53:48,366 --> 00:53:50,426
Me knowing how to do
something's not the same.
999
00:53:50,606 --> 00:53:53,426
But also too, I don't have to
necessarily have to be an expert
1000
00:53:53,426 --> 00:53:57,146
storyteller to get a story out of you
either if I have the right skills.
1001
00:53:57,406 --> 00:54:01,802
So, that's what I'm I'm always gonna
be sort of in the teaching you how to
1002
00:54:01,802 --> 00:54:06,322
tell a story space, but I'm sort of
moving on to this other, this next sort
1003
00:54:06,322 --> 00:54:08,202
of phase in the storytelling journey.
1004
00:54:09,212 --> 00:54:12,852
That, that's important 'cause I, I
haven't seen anything like that out there.
1005
00:54:12,852 --> 00:54:12,982
Mm-Hmm.
1006
00:54:12,982 --> 00:54:16,942
I will tell you this, when you're
listening to stories, you kind of
1007
00:54:16,942 --> 00:54:19,422
become a therapist in a way, 'cause
you don't know what you're gonna get.
1008
00:54:19,647 --> 00:54:20,937
And that's part of it too.
1009
00:54:20,937 --> 00:54:21,777
You don't know what emotions
1010
00:54:22,007 --> 00:54:22,107
Yeah.
1011
00:54:22,107 --> 00:54:23,017
I have to be careful
1012
00:54:23,942 --> 00:54:24,232
Yeah.
1013
00:54:24,252 --> 00:54:25,392
You don't know what emotion.
1014
00:54:25,612 --> 00:54:27,872
You don't know what traumatic
story you're gonna get.
1015
00:54:28,262 --> 00:54:31,352
Like you don't know how it's gonna
go, like how the other people, if
1016
00:54:31,352 --> 00:54:34,472
you're like in a group, how the other
people are gonna react to story.
1017
00:54:34,762 --> 00:54:36,552
So, that's like intense.
1018
00:54:37,787 --> 00:54:42,277
It's intense and it's knowing how to
give them that kind of ownership of
1019
00:54:42,707 --> 00:54:44,597
instead of you probing and probing.
1020
00:54:44,937 --> 00:54:47,037
You just probe for them
to give you information.
1021
00:54:47,497 --> 00:54:47,837
You know?
1022
00:54:48,017 --> 00:54:52,557
So, it's these different sort of coaching
and discussion strategies and different
1023
00:54:52,587 --> 00:54:57,557
ways to get them to come, not for you to
pull them up, but to get them to rise up.
1024
00:54:58,252 --> 00:55:02,232
You know, is, is really part of it,
and it, and it is creating that safe
1025
00:55:02,232 --> 00:55:05,152
space and it's, you know, for showing
people how to do it in groups, how to
1026
00:55:05,152 --> 00:55:06,872
do it, one-on-one, how to do it in Zoom.
1027
00:55:07,572 --> 00:55:09,192
So yeah, I, I'm excited for it.
1028
00:55:09,192 --> 00:55:11,472
Hopefully, there's an interest out
there in learning how to do that.
1029
00:55:11,692 --> 00:55:13,422
So, yeah, excited about it.
1030
00:55:14,347 --> 00:55:15,357
Well, that's amazing.
1031
00:55:15,697 --> 00:55:18,287
And, you know, if people would
like to learn more about your work,
1032
00:55:18,287 --> 00:55:19,647
Hadiya, where can they find you?
1033
00:55:20,162 --> 00:55:23,252
Well, I have it really
pretty much all on my website
1034
00:55:23,402 --> 00:55:26,732
duetslearning.com or on LinkedIn.
1035
00:55:26,972 --> 00:55:28,512
I have a lot of information
out there as well.
1036
00:55:28,612 --> 00:55:29,672
So, those are your places.
1037
00:55:30,227 --> 00:55:30,717
Amazing.
1038
00:55:30,857 --> 00:55:34,557
So, on behalf of the your instructional
designer team, I just wanna thank you so
1039
00:55:34,557 --> 00:55:36,637
much for being part of our podclass today.
1040
00:55:37,492 --> 00:55:37,832
All right.
1041
00:55:38,072 --> 00:55:39,032
Thank you for having me.
1042
00:55:39,757 --> 00:55:40,077
Absolutely.
1043
00:55:40,332 --> 00:55:40,762
Thank you.
1044
00:55:40,822 --> 00:55:41,252
Thank you.
1045
00:55:41,659 --> 00:55:44,769
If this episode about stories
came with a dust jacket, here's
1046
00:55:44,769 --> 00:55:45,869
what the blurb would say.
1047
00:55:46,371 --> 00:55:47,921
First, a story is a tool.
1048
00:55:48,221 --> 00:55:51,681
It's important to consider intent
and purpose and guide learners to
1049
00:55:51,681 --> 00:55:53,451
choose an appropriate story to tell.
1050
00:55:53,954 --> 00:55:55,314
Why tell a story at all?
1051
00:55:55,554 --> 00:55:56,694
And why that story?
1052
00:55:57,194 --> 00:56:01,034
Second, self awareness, empathy, and
mindfulness are key to creating an
1053
00:56:01,034 --> 00:56:04,164
environment that feels supportive
for personal story sharing.
1054
00:56:04,661 --> 00:56:07,521
Third, learners need to
recognize themselves in stories.
1055
00:56:08,046 --> 00:56:11,616
Stories that deal with real life
situations, show transformation, and
1056
00:56:11,626 --> 00:56:15,866
offer guidance can be powerful tools
for inspiring and instructing others.
1057
00:56:16,112 --> 00:56:19,322
But ultimately, the point of a
story belongs to the listener.
1058
00:56:19,792 --> 00:56:22,392
People filter stories through
their own experiences.
1059
00:56:22,889 --> 00:56:26,499
Fourth, you can shift story time
from a passive to active experience
1060
00:56:26,509 --> 00:56:28,149
by inviting people into stories.
1061
00:56:28,919 --> 00:56:31,859
Pause periodically to ask,
what do you think happened?
1062
00:56:32,129 --> 00:56:33,729
And, how would you feel if that happened?
1063
00:56:34,226 --> 00:56:36,656
Finally, learners don't have
to share their stories to
1064
00:56:36,656 --> 00:56:38,016
benefit from storytelling.
1065
00:56:38,306 --> 00:56:41,196
They might listen to someone else's
narrative and then tap into one
1066
00:56:41,196 --> 00:56:42,596
of their own related memories.
1067
00:56:43,149 --> 00:56:44,069
Now it's your turn.
1068
00:56:44,259 --> 00:56:48,359
For your experiment, you'll think back to
a memorable story someone shared with you
1069
00:56:48,539 --> 00:56:50,389
that communicated an important insight.
1070
00:56:50,994 --> 00:56:54,194
You'll dissect what makes that story
effective, and then apply those
1071
00:56:54,194 --> 00:56:55,914
insights to a story of your own.
1072
00:56:56,744 --> 00:56:59,984
You can find the full experiment
brief in the show notes or the Social
1073
00:56:59,984 --> 00:57:01,644
Learning Lab community on Facebook.
1074
00:57:02,144 --> 00:57:05,804
In the community, you can also share
your stories, get feedback and insights
1075
00:57:05,804 --> 00:57:08,134
from peers, and comment on others ideas.
1076
00:57:08,637 --> 00:57:13,067
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave
a review, like, subscribe, or share so
1077
00:57:13,067 --> 00:57:16,527
we can continue to build a supportive
group of social learning enthusiasts.
1078
00:57:16,987 --> 00:57:19,447
Until next time, keep making
learning that matters.