The Evolutionary Importance of drinking Booze with Professor Edward Slingerland

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[zaza]: edward slingerland is distinguished university scholar
and professor of philosophy at the university of
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[zaza]: british columbia where he also hold appointments
in the department of psychology and asian studies
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[zaza]: dr slinger land is an expert on
early chinese thought comparative religion and cognitive science
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[zaza]: of religion big data approaches to cultural
analysis cognitive linguistics and digital
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[edward_slingerland]: oh
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[zaza]: humanities who besides numerous
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[edward_slingerland]: yeah
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[zaza]: academic books translate ions and edited volumes
professor slingerland is the author of two best
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[zaza]: selling trade books trying not to try
and drunk how we sipped danced and stumbled
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[zaza]: our way to see lization which is
what we're going to be talking about today
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[zaza]: i got to say beautiful cover by
the way really really
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[edward_slingerland]: i love
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[zaza]: pretty
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[edward_slingerland]: it
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[zaza]: to look at professor
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[edward_slingerland]: m
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[zaza]: slingerland welcome to europe trash
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[edward_slingerland]: thanks for having me
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[zaza]: first question if i have a little
bit of grandpa's old cough medicine before every
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[zaza]: interview will it make my podcast better
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[edward_slingerland]: likely it depends
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[zaza]: yeah
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[edward_slingerland]: on how strong the golf medicine is
yeah so what are the functions of alcohol
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[edward_slingerland]: is to relax people
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[zaza]: it
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[edward_slingerland]: release three hibitions a bit
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[zaza]: yeah
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[edward_slingerland]: down regulate their cogative control and that
tends to make social interactions go better so
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[edward_slingerland]: yes whatever you are pouring yourself will
probably help unfortunately it's nine thirty in the
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[edward_slingerland]: morning here so i'm just gonna stick
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[zaza]: m
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[edward_slingerland]: to tea but
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[zaza]: i
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[edward_slingerland]: yes
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[zaza]: take i take my guests really seriously
so nara
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[edward_slingerland]: yeah
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[zaza]: professor i'm so sorry
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[edward_slingerland]: o cares
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[zaza]: that we can't do this live and
that
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[edward_slingerland]: oh
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[zaza]: it's nine thirty in the morning but
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[edward_slingerland]: yeah
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[zaza]: yeah
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[zaza]: right just a little sip all right
let's
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[edward_slingerland]: get
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[zaza]: start big we know booze is not
good for our health we know we can
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[zaza]: potentially make absolute idiots of ourselves when
we know we all have a killer hang
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[zaza]: over the next day if we go
overboard and yet despite all of this we
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[zaza]: still pick up the glass why do
we love to get slashed
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[edward_slingerland]: well the standard story that you'll read
in a psycho one text book the standard
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[edward_slingerland]: scientific explanation is that our taste
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[zaza]: yeah
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[edward_slingerland]: for intoxication is a evolutionary mistake so
the there's different types of evolutionary mistakes the
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[edward_slingerland]: most common
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[zaza]: oh
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[edward_slingerland]: i think the standard theory is what
i call a high jack theory so ethanall
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[edward_slingerland]: just happens to trigger a reward network
in our brains and we figured
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[zaza]: yah
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[edward_slingerland]: that out and so we're just like
rats pushing a lever to get more okay
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[edward_slingerland]: or whatever they do in these
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[zaza]: a
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[edward_slingerland]: addiction studies we just we keep trigering
it even though we know consciously it's not
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[edward_slingerland]: good for us we know it has
bad effects
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[zaza]: oh
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[edward_slingerland]: it's purely
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[zaza]: yeah
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[edward_slingerland]: a mistake that this makes us feel
good there's also various mismatched theories out there
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[edward_slingerland]: so
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[zaza]: oh
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[edward_slingerland]: there are some theories that a taste
for alcohol may have been adapt if in
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[edward_slingerland]: the evolutionary past but it's not now
so so the analogy here would be like
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[edward_slingerland]: our taste for junk food so we
we have this taste for sugar and fat
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[zaza]: yeah
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[edward_slingerland]: whenever we get access to sugar and
fat we have a tendency to indulge in
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[edward_slingerland]: it that was actually very adaptive for
almost all of our evolutionary history because sugar
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[edward_slingerland]: and fat were hard to get and
you should indulge when you can it only
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[edward_slingerland]: becomes
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[zaza]: we
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[edward_slingerland]: harmful and problematic relatively recently in modern
industrial
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[zaza]: oh
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[edward_slingerland]: societies where we have too much sugar
and fat at our disposal and it leads
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[edward_slingerland]: to diabetes and apicityokall problems um so
so there's vices that we have like our
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[edward_slingerland]: taste for junk food
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[zaza]: m
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[edward_slingerland]: which are definitely mismatched mistakes they were
adapted and very recently they became adaptive
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[zaza]: oh
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[edward_slingerland]: there are definitely examples of evolutionary high
jacks so i started the book with the
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[edward_slingerland]: most dramatic and obvious hi jack which
is masturbation
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[zaza]: ah
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[edward_slingerland]: were
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[zaza]: yah
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[edward_slingerland]: any type of non reproductive sex
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[zaza]: ah
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[edward_slingerland]: where we're getting this reward or the
orgasm
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[zaza]: yeah
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[edward_slingerland]: the best the biggest chart that evolution
has and it gives it to us in
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[edward_slingerland]: return for doing the thing it most
wants us to do which is pass on
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[edward_slingerland]: copies
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[zaza]: okay
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[edward_slingerland]: of our gens so the adaptive target
is reproductive sex but humans
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[zaza]: m
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[edward_slingerland]: and other species have figured out they
can get the reward in lots of wildly
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[edward_slingerland]: non reproductive ways and
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[zaza]: oh
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[edward_slingerland]: so so you've got these evolutionary high
jacks you have evolutionary mistakes in the case
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[edward_slingerland]: of high jacks it's relatively costless so
evolution
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[zaza]: oh
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[edward_slingerland]: doesn't care about perfect evolution is just
concerned with something that works well enough and
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[edward_slingerland]: so the
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[zaza]: well
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[edward_slingerland]: system where we get this reward to
get this orgasm um m seems to involve
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[edward_slingerland]: and lead to enough reproduction that we're
here to talk about it it's a sloppy
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[zaza]: okay so
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[edward_slingerland]: system
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[zaza]: even though
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[edward_slingerland]: but it seems to
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[zaza]: we
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[edward_slingerland]: work
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[zaza]: love to masturbate evolution doesn't care because
we're still making babies is that is that
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[edward_slingerland]: we're
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[zaza]: how it
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[edward_slingerland]: still
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[zaza]: works
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[edward_slingerland]: doing that often enough yeah it's a
costless behavior doesn't
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[zaza]: often
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[edward_slingerland]: take
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[zaza]: enough
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[edward_slingerland]: very long
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[zaza]: all right
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[edward_slingerland]: not physiologically damaging despite what you may
have learned in school what doesn't make you
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[edward_slingerland]: go
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[zaza]: yeah
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[edward_slingerland]: blind or give you hairy bo
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[zaza]: yeah i went
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[edward_slingerland]: um
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[zaza]: i did go to bible school so
it was a different story there
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[edward_slingerland]: okay yeah yeah they told you something
different junk
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[zaza]: uh
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[edward_slingerland]: food is actually really dangerous and harmful
but it's a relatively a very recent problem
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[edward_slingerland]: and it's still a geograph ally limited
so there today there are still plenty of
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[edward_slingerland]: places in the world where it's hard
to get enough sugar and fat where calories
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[edward_slingerland]: are a problem so evolution hasn't had
time to worry about that problem in the
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[edward_slingerland]: case of alcohol what i'm arguing and
drunk is that neither of these types of
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[edward_slingerland]: mistakes stories can be right and that's
because the taste unlike junk food the taste
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[edward_slingerland]: for alcohol has been
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[zaza]: oh
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[edward_slingerland]: with us for ever as far as
we know as the species it's ubiquitous so
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[edward_slingerland]: you see you see it everywhere and
you see it throughout history so it's an
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[edward_slingerland]: ancient blum um
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[zaza]: oh
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[edward_slingerland]: it's also incredibly costly so it's up
there with junk food in terms of it's
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[edward_slingerland]: probably worse than junk food in terms
of the damage it does to our body
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[edward_slingerland]: so it harms our liver it increases
our cancer risk leads to hangovers when indulged
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[edward_slingerland]: in as you as you know so
given the
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[zaza]: yeah
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[edward_slingerland]: high cost of alcohol and the fact
that we've been producing and consuming it everywhere
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[edward_slingerland]: in the world for as long as
we know something else has to be
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[zaza]: he
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[edward_slingerland]: going on because evolution would fix this
problem if it really were just a mistake
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[edward_slingerland]: and so the central theme of drunk
is that
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[zaza]: ah
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[edward_slingerland]: it's not an evolutionary mistake that we
have the taste into against these intoxicants are
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[edward_slingerland]: actually serving certain functions for us oh
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[zaza]: in school they told us that the
development of human civilization went roughly something like
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[zaza]: this from being hentrogatherers for a minute
we suddenly invent agriculture believe in mesopotamia the
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[zaza]: cradle of civilization then we start to
build cities figure out writing and a couple
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[zaza]: of other really important
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[edward_slingerland]: oh
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[zaza]: things and only then does alcohol appear
on the stage at least
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[edward_slingerland]: a
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[zaza]: in the text books you know that
we read and even then as a mere
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[zaza]: footnote
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[edward_slingerland]: oh
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[zaza]: something kind of interesting but also kind
of unimportant i believe we mentioned back then
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[zaza]: how ancient
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[edward_slingerland]: oh
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[zaza]: egyptians drank beer however in the book
you write that we were drinking before we
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[zaza]: invented agriculture
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[edward_slingerland]: oh
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[zaza]: not only that but we actually invented
agriculture so we
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[edward_slingerland]: oh
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[zaza]: could have constant access to booze
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[edward_slingerland]: oh
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[zaza]: can
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[edward_slingerland]: yeah
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[zaza]: you make a case for the so
called bear before bread hypothesis
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[edward_slingerland]: so i was also taught
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[zaza]: i
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[edward_slingerland]: that standard story so you know it's
very similar it's paralleled to the evolutionary mistake
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[edward_slingerland]: story about our taste for alcohol so
our taste for alcohol is it would be
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[edward_slingerland]: an evolutionary mistake and then
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[zaza]: yeah
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[edward_slingerland]: we're also told that
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[zaza]: oh
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[edward_slingerland]: our production of alcohol is kind of
historical mistake so we invented agriculture we had
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[edward_slingerland]: some left over
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[zaza]: yeah
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[edward_slingerland]: and we left it sitting around with
some water and fermented and we kind of
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[edward_slingerland]: figured out as a by product how
to make alcohol the problem with this story
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[edward_slingerland]: and this surprised me so i didn't
know about this actually before i started writing
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[edward_slingerland]: the book but there's a movement
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[zaza]: yeah
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[edward_slingerland]: in archeology that has been arguing that
if you this standard story can explain the
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[edward_slingerland]: patterns we see and we look to
pre agricultural societies and so one example that
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[edward_slingerland]: we talk about in the book is
go back la tep the site in modern
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[edward_slingerland]: day turkey
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[zaza]: turkey right
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[edward_slingerland]: where
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[zaza]: yeah
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[edward_slingerland]: yeah hunter gatherers are coming together there's
no agriculture this thousands of years before agriculture
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[zaza]: i
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[edward_slingerland]: building this monumental
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[zaza]: no
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[edward_slingerland]: religious architecture
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[zaza]: so
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[edward_slingerland]: with these huge stones delay with carvings
on and then having these blow out parties
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[zaza]: oh
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[edward_slingerland]: essentially they're doing they're feasting we have
the remains
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[zaza]: yes
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[edward_slingerland]: of bones of gazelles and other
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[zaza]: no
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[edward_slingerland]: animals and they're drinking something that we
have these big vats that were holding some
257
00:10:40,786 --> 00:10:42,869
[edward_slingerland]: kind of liquid and we don't
258
00:10:42,690 --> 00:10:42,770
[zaza]: ah
259
00:10:42,970 --> 00:10:48,559
[edward_slingerland]: actually have direct chemical residue evidence from
this particular site that they were drinking beer
260
00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,985
[edward_slingerland]: but we do know that beer was
being made in the re and we know
261
00:10:52,045 --> 00:10:52,206
[edward_slingerland]: that
262
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:52,420
[zaza]: ye
263
00:10:52,627 --> 00:10:56,738
[edward_slingerland]: as far as thirteen thousand years ago
we have direct chemical evidence of beer production
264
00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:57,821
[edward_slingerland]: so they were
265
00:10:58,281 --> 00:10:58,548
[zaza]: they were
266
00:10:58,694 --> 00:11:02,721
[edward_slingerland]: were drinking beer they were drinking they
weren't drinking water out of these huge vats
267
00:11:03,703 --> 00:11:07,871
[edward_slingerland]: and possibly haluciding gin laced beer because
we know they were doing that in this
268
00:11:07,931 --> 00:11:10,034
[edward_slingerland]: region at that time so
269
00:11:10,953 --> 00:11:11,076
[zaza]: oh
270
00:11:11,096 --> 00:11:17,066
[edward_slingerland]: what it seems like is that you've
got hundred gatherers coming together and starting to
271
00:11:17,166 --> 00:11:19,950
[edward_slingerland]: settle down starting to be more sedentary
272
00:11:20,801 --> 00:11:20,943
[zaza]: yeah
273
00:11:21,112 --> 00:11:28,087
[edward_slingerland]: motivated by the desire to produce beer
not bread because they're not using grain for
274
00:11:28,187 --> 00:11:30,349
[edward_slingerland]: bread yet and this pattern
275
00:11:30,060 --> 00:11:30,260
[zaza]: oh
276
00:11:30,409 --> 00:11:34,633
[edward_slingerland]: was also revealing as you see the
same pattern in other parts of the world
277
00:11:35,464 --> 00:11:37,907
[edward_slingerland]: so agriculture arose independently in
278
00:11:37,901 --> 00:11:37,982
[zaza]: ah
279
00:11:37,988 --> 00:11:41,132
[edward_slingerland]: many places around the world in south
america
280
00:11:41,730 --> 00:11:41,911
[zaza]: eric
281
00:11:42,464 --> 00:11:43,847
[edward_slingerland]: the first main
282
00:11:43,910 --> 00:11:43,931
[zaza]: i
283
00:11:43,927 --> 00:11:51,001
[edward_slingerland]: important domesticated crop is maize corn and
it's descended from this wild ancestor called teo
284
00:11:51,122 --> 00:11:51,462
[edward_slingerland]: sente
285
00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:52,701
[zaza]: oh
286
00:11:52,594 --> 00:11:57,744
[edward_slingerland]: and what's revealing is that if you
were looking for a food source you would
287
00:11:57,784 --> 00:12:00,368
[edward_slingerland]: ignore teocinte it's got very small
288
00:12:00,150 --> 00:12:00,412
[zaza]: oh
289
00:12:00,488 --> 00:12:06,118
[edward_slingerland]: grains that's pretty useless for making food
but it's got this sugary starchy stock that
290
00:12:06,158 --> 00:12:06,659
[edward_slingerland]: you can make
291
00:12:06,510 --> 00:12:06,630
[zaza]: oh
292
00:12:06,759 --> 00:12:12,609
[edward_slingerland]: beer out of and that's the still
make this this beverage called chicha out of
293
00:12:12,689 --> 00:12:13,049
[edward_slingerland]: maize
294
00:12:13,220 --> 00:12:13,362
[zaza]: yeah
295
00:12:13,731 --> 00:12:19,160
[edward_slingerland]: so it's pretty clear that whoever you
know focused on teocintday started cultivating
296
00:12:18,690 --> 00:12:19,860
[zaza]: yeah
297
00:12:19,260 --> 00:12:23,038
[edward_slingerland]: it started trying to make it more
productive yeah was doing it because they were
298
00:12:23,058 --> 00:12:27,995
[edward_slingerland]: making cheap they were making beer out
of it not making tortias north
299
00:12:28,050 --> 00:12:28,292
[zaza]: oh
300
00:12:28,055 --> 00:12:35,668
[edward_slingerland]: america the first cultivated crop is tobacco
and tobacco that was grown with various lucidghalucid
301
00:12:35,748 --> 00:12:37,050
[edward_slingerland]: genic substances it was
302
00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:37,355
[zaza]: oh
303
00:12:37,130 --> 00:12:41,140
[edward_slingerland]: mixed with deforemanent oxagnsoso all
304
00:12:41,022 --> 00:12:41,084
[zaza]: so
305
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,051
[edward_slingerland]: over the world it seems like the
first domesticated crops
306
00:12:44,662 --> 00:12:44,683
[zaza]: i
307
00:12:46,164 --> 00:12:49,489
[edward_slingerland]: we're chosen for their psycho active properties
they were chosen
308
00:12:49,332 --> 00:12:49,392
[zaza]: so
309
00:12:49,529 --> 00:12:49,710
[edward_slingerland]: because
310
00:12:49,552 --> 00:12:49,693
[zaza]: even
311
00:12:49,730 --> 00:12:49,810
[edward_slingerland]: they
312
00:12:49,753 --> 00:12:49,853
[zaza]: the
313
00:12:49,830 --> 00:12:49,950
[edward_slingerland]: would
314
00:12:49,913 --> 00:12:50,314
[zaza]: cultures
315
00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:50,752
[edward_slingerland]: get us high
316
00:12:50,374 --> 00:12:51,076
[zaza]: they didn't have
317
00:12:50,892 --> 00:12:51,273
[edward_slingerland]: or drunk
318
00:12:51,297 --> 00:12:55,828
[zaza]: alcohol they found another way to get
kind of high or smashed
319
00:12:56,534 --> 00:12:58,237
[edward_slingerland]: yeah yeah you see this so
320
00:12:58,141 --> 00:12:58,345
[zaza]: nice
321
00:12:58,357 --> 00:13:02,164
[edward_slingerland]: you know in north america unusually they
don't have alcohol it's one of the few
322
00:13:02,244 --> 00:13:04,307
[edward_slingerland]: places in the world where they didn't
323
00:13:04,112 --> 00:13:04,253
[zaza]: yeah
324
00:13:04,367 --> 00:13:11,667
[edward_slingerland]: have alcohol and instead they substitute very
powerful tobacco so much stronger
325
00:13:11,521 --> 00:13:11,763
[zaza]: okay
326
00:13:11,727 --> 00:13:18,574
[edward_slingerland]: than the stuff we get now and
a tobacco store laced with various solucinagins and
327
00:13:18,594 --> 00:13:19,034
[edward_slingerland]: they used
328
00:13:18,861 --> 00:13:18,962
[zaza]: ah
329
00:13:19,095 --> 00:13:23,041
[edward_slingerland]: it in precisely the same way that
alcohol is used you know they would smoke
330
00:13:23,081 --> 00:13:25,425
[edward_slingerland]: it before important meetings or any time
they had
331
00:13:25,380 --> 00:13:26,340
[zaza]: yeah
332
00:13:25,465 --> 00:13:26,206
[edward_slingerland]: to figure something out
333
00:13:26,742 --> 00:13:26,845
[zaza]: oh
334
00:13:27,208 --> 00:13:32,055
[edward_slingerland]: so it's revealing to me so two
things one is that it's the taste for
335
00:13:32,115 --> 00:13:34,379
[edward_slingerland]: intoxication that drove us to
336
00:13:34,504 --> 00:13:34,586
[zaza]: oh
337
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,356
[edward_slingerland]: start civilization in the first place there's
a very literal sense
338
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:38,303
[zaza]: very
339
00:13:38,636 --> 00:13:43,927
[edward_slingerland]: in which intoxication led to civilization and
also it's very
340
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:43,901
[zaza]: oh
341
00:13:44,008 --> 00:13:50,207
[edward_slingerland]: revealing that in the few places where
they don't have alcohol some other chemical intoxicant
342
00:13:49,662 --> 00:13:50,280
[zaza]: yeah
343
00:13:50,647 --> 00:13:56,357
[edward_slingerland]: is used for exactly the same purposes
so in north america it was this holucidagenlas
344
00:13:56,437 --> 00:13:59,342
[edward_slingerland]: tobacco in parts of the pacific where
they don't
345
00:13:59,364 --> 00:13:59,385
[zaza]: a
346
00:13:59,382 --> 00:14:00,083
[edward_slingerland]: have alcohol
347
00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:00,201
[zaza]: oh
348
00:14:00,444 --> 00:14:07,339
[edward_slingerland]: cava this intoxicant made from this route
and so that suggests that alcohol is serving
349
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:12,993
[edward_slingerland]: is very important functional niche it's so
important that when alcohol is not there you
350
00:14:13,054 --> 00:14:14,860
[edward_slingerland]: have to fill it with some other
intoxicant
351
00:14:15,150 --> 00:14:17,454
[zaza]: yah um
352
00:14:17,776 --> 00:14:17,797
[edward_slingerland]: a
353
00:14:17,795 --> 00:14:22,664
[zaza]: by the way is there any evidence
that other other hominis drank like the neandertells
354
00:14:23,085 --> 00:14:24,868
[zaza]: find a way to get messed up
355
00:14:26,247 --> 00:14:30,294
[edward_slingerland]: yeah we don't we don't have any
evidence of that it's not impossible they were
356
00:14:30,354 --> 00:14:36,944
[edward_slingerland]: pretty sophisticated they were tool users their
brains were probably not that that's different from
357
00:14:37,044 --> 00:14:42,369
[edward_slingerland]: ours but we don't have any evidence
that there's some indirect evidence that they may
358
00:14:42,409 --> 00:14:42,989
[edward_slingerland]: have been using
359
00:14:43,213 --> 00:14:43,355
[zaza]: may
360
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:50,449
[edward_slingerland]: psychodelics so they may have been using
mind altering plants but it's very indirect evidence
361
00:14:50,690 --> 00:14:52,454
[edward_slingerland]: so as far as we know it's
362
00:14:52,723 --> 00:14:52,846
[zaza]: oh
363
00:14:52,855 --> 00:14:54,379
[edward_slingerland]: homo sapiens who really
364
00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:54,960
[zaza]: yeah
365
00:14:54,459 --> 00:15:00,527
[edward_slingerland]: start producing and consuming alcohol in a
very serious way
366
00:15:00,420 --> 00:15:00,664
[zaza]: oh
367
00:15:01,648 --> 00:15:01,868
[edward_slingerland]: tens
368
00:15:01,890 --> 00:15:02,031
[zaza]: oh
369
00:15:01,928 --> 00:15:04,150
[edward_slingerland]: of thousands of years ago we have
indirect
370
00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:04,143
[zaza]: yeah
371
00:15:04,370 --> 00:15:05,812
[edward_slingerland]: evidence twenty thousand years ago
372
00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:06,450
[zaza]: yeah
373
00:15:05,872 --> 00:15:07,073
[edward_slingerland]: and it's probably earlier than that
374
00:15:08,302 --> 00:15:14,075
[zaza]: isn't there some theory i might have
it quite wrong here but that this cognitive
375
00:15:14,155 --> 00:15:14,736
[zaza]: revolution
376
00:15:14,994 --> 00:15:15,314
[edward_slingerland]: oh
377
00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:24,223
[zaza]: and homo sapiens happened due to use
of intoxicants or i know i wasn't mushrooms
378
00:15:24,263 --> 00:15:26,221
[zaza]: or something is there any
379
00:15:26,214 --> 00:15:26,554
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
380
00:15:26,302 --> 00:15:27,005
[zaza]: credence to that
381
00:15:26,915 --> 00:15:27,055
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
382
00:15:27,125 --> 00:15:27,406
[zaza]: theory
383
00:15:28,436 --> 00:15:30,559
[edward_slingerland]: yeah i'm spacing on this guy's name
right now
384
00:15:31,692 --> 00:15:32,356
[zaza]: uvalharari
385
00:15:31,901 --> 00:15:32,301
[edward_slingerland]: terrence
386
00:15:32,457 --> 00:15:32,477
[zaza]: i
387
00:15:32,461 --> 00:15:32,962
[edward_slingerland]: mckenna
388
00:15:32,558 --> 00:15:33,001
[zaza]: think it is
389
00:15:34,544 --> 00:15:34,664
[edward_slingerland]: no
390
00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:34,870
[zaza]: no
391
00:15:34,885 --> 00:15:36,388
[edward_slingerland]: no there's he's he's relying
392
00:15:36,274 --> 00:15:36,736
[zaza]: he mentions
393
00:15:36,449 --> 00:15:36,810
[edward_slingerland]: on somebody
394
00:15:36,816 --> 00:15:36,876
[zaza]: it
395
00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:37,170
[edward_slingerland]: else's
396
00:15:36,956 --> 00:15:37,418
[zaza]: in his book
397
00:15:37,251 --> 00:15:37,752
[edward_slingerland]: work at em
398
00:15:38,321 --> 00:15:38,441
[zaza]: yeah
399
00:15:39,114 --> 00:15:39,314
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
400
00:15:39,243 --> 00:15:39,424
[zaza]: okay
401
00:15:39,554 --> 00:15:41,417
[edward_slingerland]: it's it's actually somebody else's theory
402
00:15:42,281 --> 00:15:42,583
[zaza]: all right
403
00:15:42,459 --> 00:15:46,105
[edward_slingerland]: can i think i don't know why
i'm basing on his name but yeah this
404
00:15:46,185 --> 00:15:46,426
[edward_slingerland]: is the
405
00:15:46,426 --> 00:15:46,487
[zaza]: ah
406
00:15:46,486 --> 00:15:51,594
[edward_slingerland]: so called stone stone ypothesis that taking
rooms
407
00:15:51,270 --> 00:15:51,592
[zaza]: yeah
408
00:15:51,895 --> 00:15:56,803
[edward_slingerland]: you know led to this rewiring of
our brains that caused us to be able
409
00:15:56,863 --> 00:16:02,092
[edward_slingerland]: to have language and all this other
stuff i don't buy it it's based on
410
00:16:02,152 --> 00:16:10,872
[edward_slingerland]: a kind of la marcian evolutionary story
so you know somehow taking
411
00:16:10,611 --> 00:16:10,632
[zaza]: a
412
00:16:11,373 --> 00:16:12,895
[edward_slingerland]: taking mushrooms may change your
413
00:16:12,930 --> 00:16:13,175
[zaza]: yeah
414
00:16:12,995 --> 00:16:17,423
[edward_slingerland]: brain it's not going to change your
kids brain right because they're just going to
415
00:16:17,463 --> 00:16:18,765
[edward_slingerland]: get the same and you had because
416
00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:19,500
[zaza]: yeah
417
00:16:18,885 --> 00:16:24,434
[edward_slingerland]: gens don't pass on acquired traits like
something that happens when you take mushrooms so
418
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:24,781
[zaza]: oh
419
00:16:24,475 --> 00:16:28,521
[edward_slingerland]: i don't think it makes sense in
terms of the way evolution works but what
420
00:16:28,722 --> 00:16:33,427
[edward_slingerland]: i think does make sense is the
idea and this is something that michael pollen
421
00:16:33,587 --> 00:16:42,066
[edward_slingerland]: has argued in his book how to
change your mind that psychodelics we're probably really
422
00:16:42,126 --> 00:16:44,490
[edward_slingerland]: important in the early stages of civilization
423
00:16:44,904 --> 00:16:44,986
[zaza]: ah
424
00:16:45,191 --> 00:16:47,014
[edward_slingerland]: because they by
425
00:16:47,413 --> 00:16:47,661
[zaza]: nice
426
00:16:47,575 --> 00:16:52,283
[edward_slingerland]: by in the same way alcohol does
it de patterns your brain and allows parts
427
00:16:52,363 --> 00:16:57,245
[edward_slingerland]: of your and i lows a lot
of cross talk that doesn't normally happen in
428
00:16:57,286 --> 00:16:59,569
[edward_slingerland]: your brain and that leads you to
come up with new
429
00:16:59,550 --> 00:16:59,772
[zaza]: oh
430
00:16:59,710 --> 00:17:05,279
[edward_slingerland]: ideas new and a lot of them
he compares it i like his analogy he
431
00:17:05,379 --> 00:17:08,003
[edward_slingerland]: compares it to a mutageinin
432
00:17:07,681 --> 00:17:07,866
[zaza]: that's
433
00:17:08,164 --> 00:17:10,606
[edward_slingerland]: dic evolution so genetic evolution
434
00:17:10,701 --> 00:17:10,823
[zaza]: yes
435
00:17:10,706 --> 00:17:16,081
[edward_slingerland]: could only work because there are mutations
right you get gens changing most mutations are
436
00:17:16,161 --> 00:17:21,681
[edward_slingerland]: bad neutral or bad but every one
in you get one that's good and that's
437
00:17:21,721 --> 00:17:23,724
[edward_slingerland]: how genetic evolution progresses
438
00:17:23,310 --> 00:17:23,516
[zaza]: yeah
439
00:17:24,726 --> 00:17:30,075
[edward_slingerland]: he argues that for cultural evolution psychodelics
are doing the same thing they're scrambling up
440
00:17:30,375 --> 00:17:34,142
[edward_slingerland]: your brain they're causing you to come
up with these really weird new combinations of
441
00:17:34,242 --> 00:17:38,168
[edward_slingerland]: ideas most of the time it's garbage
right most
442
00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:38,461
[zaza]: yeah
443
00:17:38,208 --> 00:17:39,831
[edward_slingerland]: of the time the stuff you
444
00:17:39,887 --> 00:17:40,007
[zaza]: yeah
445
00:17:39,931 --> 00:17:40,112
[edward_slingerland]: write
446
00:17:40,087 --> 00:17:40,288
[zaza]: i can
447
00:17:40,212 --> 00:17:40,552
[edward_slingerland]: down
448
00:17:40,369 --> 00:17:40,690
[zaza]: attest
449
00:17:40,693 --> 00:17:41,153
[edward_slingerland]: the insight
450
00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:41,192
[zaza]: to that
451
00:17:41,334 --> 00:17:41,434
[edward_slingerland]: you
452
00:17:41,473 --> 00:17:42,136
[zaza]: unfortunately
453
00:17:41,535 --> 00:17:42,800
[edward_slingerland]: have yes yeah
454
00:17:43,841 --> 00:17:44,121
[zaza]: i made
455
00:17:43,965 --> 00:17:44,085
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
456
00:17:44,161 --> 00:17:44,301
[zaza]: some
457
00:17:44,286 --> 00:17:44,367
[edward_slingerland]: what
458
00:17:44,362 --> 00:17:44,622
[zaza]: notes
459
00:17:44,387 --> 00:17:44,869
[edward_slingerland]: i talk in the
460
00:17:44,842 --> 00:17:44,963
[zaza]: when
461
00:17:44,909 --> 00:17:45,070
[edward_slingerland]: book
462
00:17:45,043 --> 00:17:45,063
[zaza]: i
463
00:17:45,170 --> 00:17:45,451
[edward_slingerland]: about
464
00:17:46,325 --> 00:17:49,250
[zaza]: yeah exactly a friend of mine let's
call it
465
00:17:49,284 --> 00:17:49,524
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
466
00:17:49,290 --> 00:17:51,213
[zaza]: a friend of mine did some psychadelics
and then he
467
00:17:51,211 --> 00:17:51,391
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
468
00:17:51,293 --> 00:17:52,215
[zaza]: made notes it wasn't me
469
00:17:52,435 --> 00:17:52,596
[edward_slingerland]: right
470
00:17:53,276 --> 00:17:53,998
[zaza]: and then you know
471
00:17:53,881 --> 00:17:54,061
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
472
00:17:54,258 --> 00:17:54,999
[zaza]: i thought it was kind of
473
00:17:55,074 --> 00:17:55,279
[edward_slingerland]: yes
474
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,043
[zaza]: it's going to be the new war
in piece on the new tolstoy
475
00:17:58,044 --> 00:17:58,204
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
476
00:17:58,383 --> 00:17:58,463
[zaza]: and
477
00:17:58,445 --> 00:17:58,626
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
478
00:17:58,523 --> 00:17:59,464
[zaza]: then i read it the next
479
00:17:59,409 --> 00:17:59,569
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
480
00:17:59,544 --> 00:18:00,706
[zaza]: day and i
481
00:18:01,074 --> 00:18:01,294
[edward_slingerland]: yes
482
00:18:01,226 --> 00:18:03,248
[zaza]: you know suffice to say that i'm
not the new tolstoy
483
00:18:04,544 --> 00:18:04,784
[edward_slingerland]: yes
484
00:18:05,070 --> 00:18:05,913
[zaza]: not even the new dan
485
00:18:05,925 --> 00:18:05,985
[edward_slingerland]: in
486
00:18:05,993 --> 00:18:06,254
[zaza]: brown
487
00:18:06,025 --> 00:18:10,248
[edward_slingerland]: the book i talk about yeah not
even the new dan brown i wrote an
488
00:18:10,489 --> 00:18:16,674
[edward_slingerland]: say called that proved definitively that truth
is the color of blue and
489
00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:17,715
[zaza]: uh
490
00:18:16,734 --> 00:18:20,681
[edward_slingerland]: it was about twenty pages long and
it had diagrams in it and i was
491
00:18:20,761 --> 00:18:23,265
[edward_slingerland]: sure that i was a grad student
at the time i was sure
492
00:18:23,291 --> 00:18:23,512
[zaza]: okay
493
00:18:23,365 --> 00:18:28,153
[edward_slingerland]: that this is it this is my
dissertation and they're not only going to just
494
00:18:28,233 --> 00:18:29,415
[edward_slingerland]: pass me right away but
495
00:18:29,370 --> 00:18:30,510
[zaza]: oh
496
00:18:29,475 --> 00:18:33,322
[edward_slingerland]: i'll just they'll give me a full
professorship at stanford because i've just i've figured
497
00:18:33,382 --> 00:18:33,602
[edward_slingerland]: out the
498
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:34,530
[zaza]: yeah
499
00:18:33,622 --> 00:18:36,166
[edward_slingerland]: most important thing in the universe and
then i read it the
500
00:18:36,161 --> 00:18:36,242
[zaza]: the
501
00:18:36,206 --> 00:18:39,011
[edward_slingerland]: next morning and i was like yeah
okay i will not
502
00:18:39,020 --> 00:18:39,301
[zaza]: sounds
503
00:18:39,071 --> 00:18:39,392
[edward_slingerland]: turn that
504
00:18:39,361 --> 00:18:39,521
[zaza]: like
505
00:18:39,472 --> 00:18:39,632
[edward_slingerland]: into
506
00:18:39,581 --> 00:18:39,681
[zaza]: the
507
00:18:39,672 --> 00:18:40,173
[edward_slingerland]: my advisor
508
00:18:39,801 --> 00:18:40,662
[zaza]: hitchhawkhith
509
00:18:40,434 --> 00:18:40,679
[edward_slingerland]: oh
510
00:18:40,722 --> 00:18:43,125
[zaza]: hikers guide to the galaxy you know
the number
511
00:18:42,995 --> 00:18:43,195
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
512
00:18:43,225 --> 00:18:43,426
[zaza]: forty
513
00:18:43,375 --> 00:18:43,556
[edward_slingerland]: right
514
00:18:43,486 --> 00:18:43,586
[zaza]: two
515
00:18:43,756 --> 00:18:43,936
[edward_slingerland]: right
516
00:18:44,367 --> 00:18:44,888
[zaza]: yeah right
517
00:18:44,938 --> 00:18:45,699
[edward_slingerland]: yeah yeah
518
00:18:45,568 --> 00:18:47,370
[zaza]: awesome oh yeah
519
00:18:47,362 --> 00:18:48,003
[edward_slingerland]: so so
520
00:18:48,291 --> 00:18:48,432
[zaza]: oh
521
00:18:48,744 --> 00:18:49,826
[edward_slingerland]: it's mostly garbage
522
00:18:49,547 --> 00:18:49,710
[zaza]: yeah
523
00:18:50,307 --> 00:18:51,889
[edward_slingerland]: just in the same way that most
genetic
524
00:18:51,823 --> 00:18:51,843
[zaza]: a
525
00:18:51,970 --> 00:18:57,619
[edward_slingerland]: mutations are are harmful or use yes
but every once in a while something
526
00:18:57,271 --> 00:18:57,291
[zaza]: i
527
00:18:57,819 --> 00:19:00,263
[edward_slingerland]: new and really important may come out
of that and
528
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:00,840
[zaza]: yeah
529
00:19:00,303 --> 00:19:03,449
[edward_slingerland]: that's the raw material that cultural evolution
can work on
530
00:19:03,861 --> 00:19:04,082
[zaza]: right
531
00:19:04,010 --> 00:19:10,260
[edward_slingerland]: and so i think proper way to
understand the role of psychadelics for instance
532
00:19:10,650 --> 00:19:11,310
[zaza]: yes
533
00:19:10,721 --> 00:19:16,851
[edward_slingerland]: in human history is as this kind
of really dramatic it's like shaking up the
534
00:19:16,911 --> 00:19:17,052
[edward_slingerland]: snow
535
00:19:16,982 --> 00:19:17,667
[zaza]: make
536
00:19:17,152 --> 00:19:21,319
[edward_slingerland]: globe you're just all this weird stuff
is going to happen and some of it
537
00:19:21,379 --> 00:19:24,486
[edward_slingerland]: may be good and basically al all
538
00:19:24,481 --> 00:19:24,965
[zaza]: alcohol
539
00:19:24,546 --> 00:19:28,095
[edward_slingerland]: is doing the same thing less dramatically
540
00:19:29,231 --> 00:19:29,252
[zaza]: m
541
00:19:29,458 --> 00:19:30,900
[edward_slingerland]: and so you're going to get
542
00:19:30,849 --> 00:19:30,870
[zaza]: m
543
00:19:31,281 --> 00:19:36,249
[edward_slingerland]: you're going to get less creative insights
because they're not your brain isn't as wildly
544
00:19:36,349 --> 00:19:41,656
[edward_slingerland]: de patterned as it is with sychodelics
but you're probably more likely to come up
545
00:19:41,716 --> 00:19:47,503
[edward_slingerland]: with something useful on alcohol than on
mushrooms you're more likely to write war peace
546
00:19:48,780 --> 00:19:50,079
[zaza]: yea
547
00:19:48,916 --> 00:19:51,708
[edward_slingerland]: alcohol than you are on on suicide
548
00:19:51,461 --> 00:19:51,641
[zaza]: uh
549
00:19:51,769 --> 00:19:51,829
[edward_slingerland]: and
550
00:19:51,822 --> 00:19:52,082
[zaza]: hence
551
00:19:51,869 --> 00:19:52,251
[edward_slingerland]: mushrooms
552
00:19:52,163 --> 00:19:54,648
[zaza]: why we have so much awesome russian
literature
553
00:19:56,414 --> 00:19:56,615
[edward_slingerland]: yes
554
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:56,800
[zaza]: right
555
00:19:57,019 --> 00:19:57,462
[edward_slingerland]: exactly
556
00:19:58,403 --> 00:20:01,208
[zaza]: um speaking of evolution you write
557
00:20:01,107 --> 00:20:01,351
[edward_slingerland]: he
558
00:20:01,268 --> 00:20:05,395
[zaza]: in the book that it works surprisingly
quickly right you also write that
559
00:20:05,454 --> 00:20:06,054
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
560
00:20:05,455 --> 00:20:12,847
[zaza]: historically cultures that have eliminated alcohol their
societies didn't have an advantage over cultures that
561
00:20:12,967 --> 00:20:17,715
[zaza]: drank even those that drank quite heavily
like the vikings i think you mentioned those
562
00:20:18,516 --> 00:20:23,465
[zaza]: which is what will happen if alcohol
was just pure poison and nothing else on
563
00:20:23,505 --> 00:20:25,428
[zaza]: top of that you know if that
was
564
00:20:25,337 --> 00:20:25,458
[edward_slingerland]: oh
565
00:20:25,488 --> 00:20:26,049
[zaza]: the case like
566
00:20:25,944 --> 00:20:26,104
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
567
00:20:26,089 --> 00:20:27,391
[zaza]: you just said evolution
568
00:20:27,207 --> 00:20:27,388
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
569
00:20:27,451 --> 00:20:32,139
[zaza]: with quickly probably eliminate our taste for
it and yet it hasn't
570
00:20:32,019 --> 00:20:32,039
[edward_slingerland]: a
571
00:20:32,642 --> 00:20:35,731
[zaza]: so what are some of the positives
of
572
00:20:35,814 --> 00:20:36,804
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
573
00:20:35,851 --> 00:20:38,234
[zaza]: alcohol how is it how how does
it help
574
00:20:38,094 --> 00:20:38,316
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
575
00:20:38,314 --> 00:20:39,596
[zaza]: us or how did it used to
576
00:20:39,624 --> 00:20:39,644
[edward_slingerland]: m
577
00:20:39,636 --> 00:20:41,358
[zaza]: help us when we were forming societies
578
00:20:41,214 --> 00:20:45,230
[edward_slingerland]: yeah so to understand the functions
579
00:20:44,671 --> 00:20:44,854
[zaza]: yeah
580
00:20:45,350 --> 00:20:51,288
[edward_slingerland]: of alcohol you have to understand the
human ecological niche so you have to understand
581
00:20:51,368 --> 00:20:57,286
[edward_slingerland]: how unusual we are as a species
so we're primates but we live these lives
582
00:20:57,346 --> 00:21:01,013
[edward_slingerland]: that are just radically different than our
nearest primate relatives
583
00:21:01,073 --> 00:21:01,216
[zaza]: right
584
00:21:01,433 --> 00:21:03,336
[edward_slingerland]: chimpanzes um
585
00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:03,770
[zaza]: m
586
00:21:04,218 --> 00:21:07,383
[edward_slingerland]: we live in these enormous groups where
we're co operating
587
00:21:07,260 --> 00:21:07,523
[zaza]: oh
588
00:21:07,463 --> 00:21:09,206
[edward_slingerland]: with strangers all the time
589
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:09,245
[zaza]: oh
590
00:21:10,489 --> 00:21:17,250
[edward_slingerland]: were completely dependent on tools so we
we literally cannot survive without tools and that
591
00:21:17,310 --> 00:21:22,158
[edward_slingerland]: means that we're dependent on creativity and
innovation because that's how you get new tools
592
00:21:22,218 --> 00:21:25,924
[edward_slingerland]: that that's how you get your tool
set keeps up with the environ it keeps
593
00:21:26,005 --> 00:21:29,871
[edward_slingerland]: up with your neighbors who are also
innovating their tool sets um
594
00:21:30,450 --> 00:21:30,612
[zaza]: oh
595
00:21:31,053 --> 00:21:35,420
[edward_slingerland]: so so the two main problems that
i focus on alcohol has a lot of
596
00:21:35,460 --> 00:21:39,808
[edward_slingerland]: functions but they're too really dramatic once
that i focused on in the book the
597
00:21:39,888 --> 00:21:45,177
[edward_slingerland]: first is creativity so this has to
do with our dependence on technology and innovation
598
00:21:45,978 --> 00:21:52,809
[edward_slingerland]: um human beings have to be coming
constantly with creative solutions to problems in their
599
00:21:52,869 --> 00:21:57,417
[edward_slingerland]: environment we can't just rely on our
instincts the way a lion or a gazelle
600
00:21:57,577 --> 00:21:58,158
[edward_slingerland]: can we have
601
00:21:58,110 --> 00:21:58,890
[zaza]: yeah
602
00:21:58,198 --> 00:22:02,936
[edward_slingerland]: to have to come up with new
tools new ideas um the problem
603
00:22:02,730 --> 00:22:02,931
[zaza]: yeah
604
00:22:03,037 --> 00:22:10,507
[edward_slingerland]: is that adults human adults are not
very creative every creative as kids but as
605
00:22:10,627 --> 00:22:13,011
[edward_slingerland]: we age as we mature we
606
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:13,341
[zaza]: oh
607
00:22:13,111 --> 00:22:16,938
[edward_slingerland]: get less and less creative and so
i talk about the work of alison coptic
608
00:22:17,058 --> 00:22:22,455
[edward_slingerland]: she's a developmental psychologist of berkeley and
she's done these very elegant experiment showing that
609
00:22:23,910 --> 00:22:23,930
[zaza]: m
610
00:22:24,314 --> 00:22:28,723
[edward_slingerland]: you're talking about what psychology s call
lateral thinking so this is where you're trying
611
00:22:28,763 --> 00:22:31,128
[edward_slingerland]: to come up with something new or
solve a problem
612
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:31,462
[zaza]: oh
613
00:22:31,328 --> 00:22:37,158
[edward_slingerland]: that requires insight you can't just kind
of power your way to a solution four
614
00:22:37,259 --> 00:22:39,603
[edward_slingerland]: year old are great at these tats
they
615
00:22:39,630 --> 00:22:39,852
[zaza]: yeah
616
00:22:39,663 --> 00:22:45,693
[edward_slingerland]: solve them very easily and your ability
to solve these problems decreases over time and
617
00:22:45,733 --> 00:22:50,278
[edward_slingerland]: this linear fashion and what i do
in the book is show her graph of
618
00:22:50,358 --> 00:22:55,787
[edward_slingerland]: our performance as we aged on these
creativity tats i lay on top of it
619
00:22:56,008 --> 00:23:02,176
[edward_slingerland]: a graft showing the maturation of the
pre frontal court so basically as our pre
620
00:23:02,236 --> 00:23:08,983
[edward_slingerland]: frontal cortex part of our brain right
right up here matures we become less creative
621
00:23:10,334 --> 00:23:15,723
[edward_slingerland]: the p f c h to use
the shorthand for it is a really important
622
00:23:15,943 --> 00:23:20,992
[edward_slingerland]: part of human beings it's the it's
the locus of cogative control or executive function
623
00:23:21,292 --> 00:23:26,581
[edward_slingerland]: what allows you to stay focused on
a task to get up on time to
624
00:23:26,821 --> 00:23:37,503
[edward_slingerland]: suppress inappropriate desires or emotions to delay
gratification key to being a successful adult is
625
00:23:37,563 --> 00:23:37,944
[edward_slingerland]: also the
626
00:23:37,950 --> 00:23:38,051
[zaza]: oh
627
00:23:38,065 --> 00:23:44,128
[edward_slingerland]: last part of a human being to
mature so long after you are completely physically
628
00:23:44,308 --> 00:23:49,717
[edward_slingerland]: sexually mature your p f c is
still not done developing doesn't develop into your
629
00:23:49,838 --> 00:23:52,061
[edward_slingerland]: well into your twenties mid twenties or
so
630
00:23:52,873 --> 00:23:53,013
[zaza]: yeah
631
00:23:53,043 --> 00:23:53,183
[edward_slingerland]: which
632
00:23:53,074 --> 00:23:53,094
[zaza]: i
633
00:23:53,223 --> 00:23:53,303
[edward_slingerland]: is
634
00:23:53,234 --> 00:23:53,596
[zaza]: sometimes
635
00:23:53,484 --> 00:23:53,605
[edward_slingerland]: which
636
00:23:53,636 --> 00:23:53,817
[zaza]: still
637
00:23:53,665 --> 00:23:54,047
[edward_slingerland]: is really
638
00:23:53,878 --> 00:23:54,119
[zaza]: wonder
639
00:23:54,168 --> 00:23:54,430
[edward_slingerland]: weird
640
00:23:54,219 --> 00:23:55,626
[zaza]: if mine has fully developed yet
641
00:23:55,744 --> 00:23:57,126
[edward_slingerland]: yeah exactly so
642
00:23:57,154 --> 00:23:57,174
[zaza]: a
643
00:23:57,827 --> 00:24:01,092
[edward_slingerland]: and i know some twenty year old
who really they're not quite fully cooked
644
00:24:00,953 --> 00:24:00,974
[zaza]: a
645
00:24:01,193 --> 00:24:02,234
[edward_slingerland]: yet um
646
00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:02,361
[zaza]: yeah
647
00:24:03,597 --> 00:24:06,001
[edward_slingerland]: this is weird it's weird that this
part
648
00:24:05,902 --> 00:24:06,004
[zaza]: ah
649
00:24:06,041 --> 00:24:10,709
[edward_slingerland]: of the brain doesn't mature until so
late in life and to me that suggests
650
00:24:10,769 --> 00:24:11,911
[edward_slingerland]: that there's an evolutionary
651
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:11,590
[zaza]: oh
652
00:24:12,011 --> 00:24:16,779
[edward_slingerland]: trade off that evolution is trying to
kind of deal with that's why it's slow
653
00:24:16,899 --> 00:24:21,046
[edward_slingerland]: walking in the development of the p
f c because as important as it is
654
00:24:21,146 --> 00:24:24,271
[edward_slingerland]: to be able to tie shoes and
get to work on time
655
00:24:24,324 --> 00:24:24,447
[zaza]: eh
656
00:24:24,351 --> 00:24:30,662
[edward_slingerland]: and focus on things it has cost
you're less able to learn new things and
657
00:24:30,702 --> 00:24:36,632
[edward_slingerland]: you're less able to solve these creativity
path to make creative insights and so what
658
00:24:37,020 --> 00:24:37,161
[zaza]: what
659
00:24:37,393 --> 00:24:41,900
[edward_slingerland]: what i argue is that humans have
figured out a clever way to deal with
660
00:24:41,941 --> 00:24:46,069
[edward_slingerland]: this tension which is i'm an adult
i have a fully developed p f c
661
00:24:46,370 --> 00:24:50,399
[edward_slingerland]: that means i'm not as creative as
a four or five year old but if
662
00:24:50,479 --> 00:24:57,131
[edward_slingerland]: i could take a substance that would
temporarily reverse that maturation process that would that
663
00:24:57,191 --> 00:25:01,378
[edward_slingerland]: would down regulate my p f c
and kind of take me back to being
664
00:25:01,699 --> 00:25:06,826
[edward_slingerland]: as flexible as a kid is cogatively
that would be awesome right especially if it
665
00:25:06,866 --> 00:25:10,209
[edward_slingerland]: was temporary and only that lasted for
a couple of hours i was back to
666
00:25:10,289 --> 00:25:15,515
[edward_slingerland]: normal again so basically one of the
main functions of alcohol and this is true
667
00:25:15,595 --> 00:25:21,966
[edward_slingerland]: of other chemical into cans psychodelics in
canabas is that it's down regulating the pfcit's
668
00:25:22,046 --> 00:25:26,514
[edward_slingerland]: turning down its function so so in
essence when you have a couple of drinks
669
00:25:28,505 --> 00:25:33,078
[edward_slingerland]: you're taking yourself back to the kind
of cogative flexibility you had as as a
670
00:25:33,198 --> 00:25:38,717
[edward_slingerland]: child as a younger person but you
have all the knowledge and the abilities that
671
00:25:38,757 --> 00:25:39,478
[edward_slingerland]: an adult has
672
00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:39,751
[zaza]: oh
673
00:25:39,778 --> 00:25:43,061
[edward_slingerland]: so it's analogy i think so i'm
arguing that alcohol is this
674
00:25:44,010 --> 00:25:44,212
[zaza]: oh
675
00:25:44,042 --> 00:25:48,377
[edward_slingerland]: cultural technology we have used strategically
676
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:49,350
[zaza]: yeah
677
00:25:49,059 --> 00:25:52,784
[edward_slingerland]: in situations where we need creative insight
this is why
678
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:53,021
[zaza]: yeah
679
00:25:52,904 --> 00:25:59,113
[edward_slingerland]: across the world throughout history you see
this relationship between artists and poets and alcohol
680
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:07,251
[zaza]: right right that probably applies if we
exercise moderation right society pretty much
681
00:26:07,254 --> 00:26:08,732
[edward_slingerland]: mhm
682
00:26:07,291 --> 00:26:14,121
[zaza]: across the board societies different societies historically
they emphasise moderate and you have this wonderful
683
00:26:14,281 --> 00:26:20,206
[zaza]: bit from an ancient greek playwright in
the book that really made me chuckle actually
684
00:26:20,226 --> 00:26:22,228
[zaza]: you know what i'm going to read
it real quick it's not that long
685
00:26:22,304 --> 00:26:22,526
[edward_slingerland]: okay
686
00:26:22,808 --> 00:26:23,589
[zaza]: i think i've marked
687
00:26:23,412 --> 00:26:23,674
[edward_slingerland]: all right
688
00:26:23,669 --> 00:26:30,600
[zaza]: it yeah page fifty two i love
that he says this three cups only do
689
00:26:30,624 --> 00:26:30,885
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
690
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,828
[zaza]: i propose for sensible men one for
health the second for love and pleasure and
691
00:26:35,868 --> 00:26:36,830
[zaza]: the third for leap
692
00:26:36,804 --> 00:26:37,084
[edward_slingerland]: oh
693
00:26:37,551 --> 00:26:40,817
[zaza]: when this has been drunk up wise
guests make for home
694
00:26:41,064 --> 00:26:41,084
[edward_slingerland]: m
695
00:26:41,778 --> 00:26:47,147
[zaza]: the fourth cup is mine no longer
but belongs to hubris the fifth to shouting
696
00:26:47,708 --> 00:26:53,518
[zaza]: the sixth two well the seventh to
black eyes the eight two summonses the ninth
697
00:26:53,658 --> 00:26:53,698
[zaza]: to
698
00:26:53,686 --> 00:26:53,849
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
699
00:26:53,818 --> 00:27:00,329
[zaza]: bile and the tenth to madness and
people tossing the furniture about i mean it's
700
00:27:00,344 --> 00:27:00,567
[edward_slingerland]: yes
701
00:27:00,610 --> 00:27:01,732
[zaza]: funny because it's so
702
00:27:01,794 --> 00:27:02,964
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
703
00:27:01,872 --> 00:27:04,216
[zaza]: relatable still you know going from
704
00:27:04,147 --> 00:27:04,287
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
705
00:27:04,737 --> 00:27:09,444
[zaza]: a nice cocktail conversation to keith moon
and just a couple of shots right
706
00:27:09,726 --> 00:27:09,926
[edward_slingerland]: right
707
00:27:10,146 --> 00:27:10,486
[zaza]: so it
708
00:27:10,568 --> 00:27:10,768
[edward_slingerland]: right
709
00:27:10,586 --> 00:27:13,071
[zaza]: seems we had problems with dosing
710
00:27:13,134 --> 00:27:13,455
[edward_slingerland]: oh
711
00:27:13,492 --> 00:27:19,487
[zaza]: long before we had like whiskey and
distillation um when it comes to alcohol why
712
00:27:19,567 --> 00:27:22,846
[zaza]: is it so easy to get carried
away suppose
713
00:27:22,884 --> 00:27:23,724
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
714
00:27:22,906 --> 00:27:23,488
[zaza]: is my question
715
00:27:24,894 --> 00:27:27,679
[edward_slingerland]: because it's incredibly addictive alcohol
716
00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:27,530
[zaza]: m
717
00:27:27,719 --> 00:27:29,241
[edward_slingerland]: is a very addictive substance
718
00:27:28,929 --> 00:27:28,950
[zaza]: m
719
00:27:30,423 --> 00:27:35,011
[edward_slingerland]: it also you know so it's one
of the functions is a down regulate your
720
00:27:35,111 --> 00:27:37,255
[edward_slingerland]: p c is great
721
00:27:37,090 --> 00:27:37,213
[zaza]: yeah
722
00:27:37,335 --> 00:27:44,089
[edward_slingerland]: for creative insight it's bad for making
decisions that value your future self over your
723
00:27:44,149 --> 00:27:48,216
[edward_slingerland]: present self so it's the more you
drink the less you're able to regulate your
724
00:27:48,276 --> 00:27:49,277
[edward_slingerland]: own drinking because
725
00:27:49,233 --> 00:27:49,254
[zaza]: a
726
00:27:49,338 --> 00:27:51,742
[edward_slingerland]: your your inhibitions are down and your
cogative control
727
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:52,440
[zaza]: oh
728
00:27:51,882 --> 00:27:54,606
[edward_slingerland]: is reduced so this is why
729
00:27:54,512 --> 00:27:56,858
[zaza]: is that why yeah sorry go ahead
730
00:27:56,937 --> 00:27:58,407
[edward_slingerland]: go ahead go ahead
731
00:27:58,671 --> 00:27:59,194
[zaza]: is that why
732
00:28:00,384 --> 00:28:00,792
[edward_slingerland]: oh
733
00:28:00,690 --> 00:28:01,872
[zaza]: we think other people look
734
00:28:01,845 --> 00:28:01,925
[edward_slingerland]: ah
735
00:28:01,932 --> 00:28:03,474
[zaza]: so much sexier when we've swallowed
736
00:28:03,193 --> 00:28:03,333
[edward_slingerland]: yes
737
00:28:03,534 --> 00:28:04,716
[zaza]: a couple is it really
738
00:28:04,544 --> 00:28:04,724
[edward_slingerland]: yes
739
00:28:04,776 --> 00:28:05,377
[zaza]: as they say you know
740
00:28:05,306 --> 00:28:05,467
[edward_slingerland]: well
741
00:28:05,758 --> 00:28:11,668
[zaza]: that our standards are diminishing really fast
or do just our blocks get removed and
742
00:28:11,728 --> 00:28:12,169
[zaza]: we suddenly
743
00:28:11,934 --> 00:28:12,256
[edward_slingerland]: oh
744
00:28:12,229 --> 00:28:14,055
[zaza]: recognize beauty and all its forms
745
00:28:15,495 --> 00:28:17,939
[edward_slingerland]: a little bit of both so it's
partly
746
00:28:17,702 --> 00:28:17,905
[zaza]: right
747
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:19,742
[edward_slingerland]: disinhobation so we
748
00:28:20,271 --> 00:28:20,352
[zaza]: no
749
00:28:20,844 --> 00:28:24,670
[edward_slingerland]: say and feel things that we really
do say and feel but that we were
750
00:28:24,731 --> 00:28:29,099
[edward_slingerland]: suppressing that our p f c was
pressing earlier but also
751
00:28:28,860 --> 00:28:29,080
[zaza]: yeah
752
00:28:30,101 --> 00:28:34,110
[edward_slingerland]: the idea of beer goggles is a
real thing so the
753
00:28:34,142 --> 00:28:34,283
[zaza]: i've
754
00:28:34,190 --> 00:28:34,391
[edward_slingerland]: other
755
00:28:34,344 --> 00:28:34,525
[zaza]: never
756
00:28:34,491 --> 00:28:34,671
[edward_slingerland]: main
757
00:28:34,565 --> 00:28:34,887
[zaza]: heard this
758
00:28:34,751 --> 00:28:35,072
[edward_slingerland]: effect
759
00:28:34,947 --> 00:28:35,731
[zaza]: expression before
760
00:28:36,515 --> 00:28:39,199
[edward_slingerland]: oh yeah an english it's a very
common phrase
761
00:28:39,881 --> 00:28:40,083
[zaza]: right
762
00:28:40,722 --> 00:28:40,862
[edward_slingerland]: it's
763
00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:42,554
[zaza]: oh
764
00:28:42,505 --> 00:28:44,007
[edward_slingerland]: the two main effects of alcohol
765
00:28:44,010 --> 00:28:45,839
[zaza]: ye
766
00:28:44,067 --> 00:28:47,212
[edward_slingerland]: that i focus on our first is
the turning down of the p c that's
767
00:28:47,333 --> 00:28:53,363
[edward_slingerland]: taking away our inhibitions the other is
it's ramping up these feel good chemicals in
768
00:28:53,443 --> 00:28:55,667
[edward_slingerland]: our body ceratonan and dorpins
769
00:28:57,270 --> 00:28:58,140
[zaza]: yeah
770
00:28:57,450 --> 00:29:02,057
[edward_slingerland]: these are making us feel better at
ourselves so we
771
00:29:02,174 --> 00:29:02,255
[zaza]: oh
772
00:29:02,298 --> 00:29:02,578
[edward_slingerland]: feel
773
00:29:02,315 --> 00:29:02,456
[zaza]: yeah
774
00:29:03,059 --> 00:29:05,763
[edward_slingerland]: more more handsome and more clever than
775
00:29:05,790 --> 00:29:06,211
[zaza]: oh
776
00:29:05,844 --> 00:29:11,112
[edward_slingerland]: we were before drinking um but we
also feel better about other people because these
777
00:29:11,152 --> 00:29:14,939
[edward_slingerland]: are pro social cenmicgoals they make us
like other people more they make us bond
778
00:29:14,979 --> 00:29:21,269
[edward_slingerland]: with other people more so it's a
combination of it's both reducing inhibitions and
779
00:29:21,732 --> 00:29:21,895
[zaza]: yeah
780
00:29:22,091 --> 00:29:26,638
[edward_slingerland]: and essentially creating new feeling in a
way because it's wrapping up these feel good
781
00:29:26,758 --> 00:29:29,443
[edward_slingerland]: chemicals in our body and so this
has to
782
00:29:29,490 --> 00:29:29,670
[zaza]: oh
783
00:29:29,503 --> 00:29:37,135
[edward_slingerland]: do with the second main function of
alcohol which is to enhance social bond we
784
00:29:37,255 --> 00:29:44,437
[edward_slingerland]: have you know we're primates but we
cooperate on a scale and with an intensity
785
00:29:45,399 --> 00:29:50,247
[edward_slingerland]: that looks a lot more like social
insects than chibanzi you know if you look
786
00:29:50,287 --> 00:29:54,494
[edward_slingerland]: at humans you know in a ritual
or an army going to war we look
787
00:29:54,554 --> 00:29:59,180
[edward_slingerland]: like ants bees we don't look like
two pansies it's a bit of a mystery
788
00:29:59,300 --> 00:30:00,742
[edward_slingerland]: how we pull off that co
789
00:30:00,822 --> 00:30:00,964
[zaza]: oh
790
00:30:00,842 --> 00:30:04,347
[edward_slingerland]: operation at i argue in the book
is one of the ways we do it
791
00:30:04,467 --> 00:30:10,898
[edward_slingerland]: is alcohol if i'm going to try
to forge a bond were a bunch of
792
00:30:10,958 --> 00:30:14,023
[edward_slingerland]: people and we need to form an
army unit and we need to learn to
793
00:30:14,083 --> 00:30:18,050
[edward_slingerland]: cooper then get along and trust one
another the best way to do it is
794
00:30:18,090 --> 00:30:22,067
[edward_slingerland]: to have us sit down and drink
together because when you you drink with someone
795
00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:28,758
[edward_slingerland]: in a way it's a truth serum
so you know the greek greeks and romans
796
00:30:28,898 --> 00:30:32,787
[edward_slingerland]: believe you know in vino veteritas there's
there's truth wine
797
00:30:32,721 --> 00:30:33,387
[zaza]: truth and wine
798
00:30:34,474 --> 00:30:39,358
[edward_slingerland]: you have trouble lying or eating so
if i want to if i want to
799
00:30:39,381 --> 00:30:39,401
[zaza]: a
800
00:30:40,139 --> 00:30:43,742
[edward_slingerland]: fool you into thinking that i really
like you and i'm a good friend and
801
00:30:43,782 --> 00:30:48,169
[edward_slingerland]: you can trust me i need my
p f c to be in top form
802
00:30:48,690 --> 00:30:54,306
[edward_slingerland]: because i have to be keeping track
simultaneously of what i'm telling you is the
803
00:30:54,367 --> 00:31:00,074
[edward_slingerland]: truth which is false um m and
what's true i know it's true i have
804
00:31:00,114 --> 00:31:06,931
[edward_slingerland]: to keep those separate i need to
any emotional reactions or facial expressions that have
805
00:31:06,991 --> 00:31:10,537
[edward_slingerland]: to do with what i i know
it's true but it's not what i'm telling
806
00:31:10,577 --> 00:31:14,924
[edward_slingerland]: you i have to be able to
press and keep those from leaking out into
807
00:31:15,005 --> 00:31:15,445
[edward_slingerland]: my face
808
00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:17,170
[zaza]: oh
809
00:31:17,288 --> 00:31:24,079
[edward_slingerland]: it's a very lying cheating faking is
a very p f c heavy operation and
810
00:31:24,219 --> 00:31:26,322
[edward_slingerland]: so if i have any concerns
811
00:31:26,130 --> 00:31:26,151
[zaza]: i
812
00:31:26,382 --> 00:31:31,370
[edward_slingerland]: about you sitting down and having a
couple of shots or drinking some wine first
813
00:31:32,492 --> 00:31:36,538
[edward_slingerland]: m it's a bit i compare to
shaking hands when you meet someone you're showing
814
00:31:36,619 --> 00:31:41,797
[edward_slingerland]: that you don't have a weapon in
your dominant hand drinking before you start talking
815
00:31:41,837 --> 00:31:45,824
[edward_slingerland]: about a treaty or a contract or
something is like taking your p f c
816
00:31:46,044 --> 00:31:49,991
[edward_slingerland]: out and putting on the table you're
saying you now i'm cogatively just armed so
817
00:31:50,111 --> 00:31:50,972
[edward_slingerland]: you can trust what i'm
818
00:31:50,970 --> 00:31:51,960
[zaza]: yeah
819
00:31:51,032 --> 00:31:51,273
[edward_slingerland]: saying
820
00:31:52,344 --> 00:31:52,447
[zaza]: ah
821
00:31:52,675 --> 00:31:56,902
[edward_slingerland]: plus at the same time it's making
me less likely to want to cheat or
822
00:31:57,022 --> 00:32:02,431
[edward_slingerland]: fake or or defect in our relationship
because i'm feeling better about you and i'm
823
00:32:02,472 --> 00:32:08,612
[edward_slingerland]: feeling better about myself pro social chemicals
are being are flooding my brain so it's
824
00:32:08,672 --> 00:32:16,148
[edward_slingerland]: a way to kind of get otherwise
suspicious selfish primates trust one another and to
825
00:32:16,248 --> 00:32:18,554
[edward_slingerland]: feel bonded to one another and
826
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:18,801
[zaza]: oh
827
00:32:18,614 --> 00:32:21,819
[edward_slingerland]: i look at some experimental evidence that
this is actually the case with people
828
00:32:21,780 --> 00:32:21,882
[zaza]: ye
829
00:32:21,919 --> 00:32:28,370
[edward_slingerland]: if you give them alcohol as opposed
to a placebo they report feeling bonded to
830
00:32:28,530 --> 00:32:32,368
[edward_slingerland]: other people more than they feel better
about them they're more likely to cooperate
831
00:32:34,790 --> 00:32:39,718
[zaza]: so i was just wondering when while
you were talking if getting slashed
832
00:32:39,574 --> 00:32:39,735
[edward_slingerland]: ah
833
00:32:39,819 --> 00:32:44,086
[zaza]: together would be a good way to
flush out potential spies you know if
834
00:32:44,094 --> 00:32:44,254
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
835
00:32:44,166 --> 00:32:44,406
[zaza]: they're
836
00:32:44,775 --> 00:32:45,196
[edward_slingerland]: absolutely
837
00:32:44,947 --> 00:32:49,399
[zaza]: pre front or cortex stops working and
that would just be like hey listen i'm
838
00:32:49,459 --> 00:32:51,044
[zaza]: a spy i can't lie
839
00:32:51,105 --> 00:32:51,286
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
840
00:32:51,124 --> 00:32:51,987
[zaza]: to you i'm drunk
841
00:32:52,788 --> 00:32:55,893
[edward_slingerland]: yeah yeah they probably wouldn't necessarily do
that but they
842
00:32:56,700 --> 00:32:56,861
[zaza]: yeah
843
00:32:56,936 --> 00:32:59,602
[edward_slingerland]: they'd slip up right you'd be better
844
00:32:59,411 --> 00:32:59,613
[zaza]: right
845
00:32:59,742 --> 00:33:02,208
[edward_slingerland]: able to tell so
846
00:33:02,310 --> 00:33:02,511
[zaza]: oh
847
00:33:02,388 --> 00:33:03,310
[edward_slingerland]: humans you know we
848
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:04,904
[zaza]: oh
849
00:33:05,184 --> 00:33:11,224
[edward_slingerland]: we're very good at faking things and
were also very good at reading faking in
850
00:33:11,324 --> 00:33:15,729
[edward_slingerland]: people's face is their tone of voice
and things like that so i argue in
851
00:33:15,790 --> 00:33:16,070
[edward_slingerland]: the book
852
00:33:16,170 --> 00:33:17,880
[zaza]: yeah
853
00:33:16,270 --> 00:33:23,316
[edward_slingerland]: or our ability to detect lies our
ability to lie are so amazing that they've
854
00:33:23,376 --> 00:33:27,241
[edward_slingerland]: got to be the result of kind
of runaway selection so this is when there's
855
00:33:27,281 --> 00:33:35,256
[edward_slingerland]: an evolutionary arms race and he developed
these abilities that are stupidly sophisticated they're needlessly
856
00:33:35,937 --> 00:33:42,928
[edward_slingerland]: powerful so a good example of this
is is gazelles and lions or the das
857
00:33:43,870 --> 00:33:48,940
[edward_slingerland]: so you have credit or prey relationship
or the prey gets faster the pressure has
858
00:33:48,980 --> 00:33:53,959
[edward_slingerland]: to get faster and soon you get
to a point where they're both stupidly fast
859
00:33:54,060 --> 00:33:54,881
[edward_slingerland]: like there's no reason
860
00:33:54,810 --> 00:33:55,030
[zaza]: yeah
861
00:33:55,021 --> 00:33:57,746
[edward_slingerland]: they have to be that fast except
for the fact that something is chasing them
862
00:33:57,806 --> 00:34:01,833
[edward_slingerland]: or they're chasing something so they have
to keep up in this arms race i
863
00:34:01,873 --> 00:34:07,526
[edward_slingerland]: think that's what happen with human ability
to detect and fake emotions and sincerity and
864
00:34:07,586 --> 00:34:13,831
[edward_slingerland]: things like that so we're constantly worried
about people who are faking commitment to us
865
00:34:14,392 --> 00:34:17,887
[edward_slingerland]: in order to take advantage of us
and we use
866
00:34:17,790 --> 00:34:18,450
[zaza]: yeah
867
00:34:17,987 --> 00:34:23,041
[edward_slingerland]: things like facial expressions tone of voice
to figure out who's sincere and who is
868
00:34:23,141 --> 00:34:24,774
[edward_slingerland]: not in
869
00:34:24,714 --> 00:34:24,755
[zaza]: m
870
00:34:24,834 --> 00:34:31,926
[edward_slingerland]: this arms race cultures are not neutral
bystanders cultures want the cheater detectors to win
871
00:34:32,587 --> 00:34:36,493
[edward_slingerland]: because they want us to be able
to cooperate and so that's alcohol is a
872
00:34:36,513 --> 00:34:37,195
[edward_slingerland]: way it kind of
873
00:34:37,473 --> 00:34:37,695
[zaza]: right
874
00:34:38,096 --> 00:34:41,602
[edward_slingerland]: um if you want to think about
a chita and a gazelle it's like giving
875
00:34:41,682 --> 00:34:45,228
[edward_slingerland]: the chita a motorcycle something to
876
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:45,271
[zaza]: ah
877
00:34:45,288 --> 00:34:50,401
[edward_slingerland]: make it faster and to slow the
gazelle down wants the it wants the cheater
878
00:34:50,441 --> 00:34:55,618
[edward_slingerland]: detectors to win and alcohols way to
do that so that's precisely why i give
879
00:34:55,838 --> 00:35:03,204
[edward_slingerland]: i talk about how alcohol is used
in business meetings is used treaty meetings there's
880
00:35:03,304 --> 00:35:10,015
[edward_slingerland]: a anecdote that stolen supposedly if he
suspected one of his underlings of maybe dis
881
00:35:10,376 --> 00:35:16,287
[edward_slingerland]: being disloyal would bring them to his
health and make them drink a maka and
882
00:35:16,368 --> 00:35:18,895
[edward_slingerland]: he just watched them and you know
883
00:35:18,940 --> 00:35:18,981
[zaza]: i
884
00:35:19,016 --> 00:35:19,076
[edward_slingerland]: he
885
00:35:19,081 --> 00:35:19,221
[zaza]: just
886
00:35:19,136 --> 00:35:19,277
[edward_slingerland]: was
887
00:35:19,301 --> 00:35:19,461
[zaza]: read
888
00:35:19,417 --> 00:35:19,638
[edward_slingerland]: he was
889
00:35:19,562 --> 00:35:19,742
[zaza]: his
890
00:35:19,738 --> 00:35:20,300
[edward_slingerland]: downright going
891
00:35:20,163 --> 00:35:20,303
[zaza]: his
892
00:35:20,340 --> 00:35:20,380
[edward_slingerland]: to
893
00:35:20,383 --> 00:35:20,964
[zaza]: biography
894
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:20,721
[edward_slingerland]: to p f
895
00:35:21,505 --> 00:35:21,585
[zaza]: and
896
00:35:21,834 --> 00:35:22,637
[edward_slingerland]: oh
897
00:35:22,066 --> 00:35:24,830
[zaza]: yeah and there they claim that he
organized
898
00:35:24,594 --> 00:35:24,838
[edward_slingerland]: oh
899
00:35:24,890 --> 00:35:27,415
[zaza]: these crazy drinking marathons
900
00:35:26,896 --> 00:35:26,977
[edward_slingerland]: ah
901
00:35:28,196 --> 00:35:28,777
[zaza]: with all
902
00:35:28,810 --> 00:35:29,424
[edward_slingerland]: hm
903
00:35:28,837 --> 00:35:32,062
[zaza]: of his underlings he was just observing
them you know
904
00:35:32,444 --> 00:35:33,026
[edward_slingerland]: but he wouldn't
905
00:35:32,924 --> 00:35:33,064
[zaza]: in a
906
00:35:33,106 --> 00:35:33,367
[edward_slingerland]: drink
907
00:35:33,144 --> 00:35:33,745
[zaza]: sadistic
908
00:35:33,528 --> 00:35:33,969
[edward_slingerland]: right so
909
00:35:33,905 --> 00:35:35,248
[zaza]: kind of way no he wouldn't drink
910
00:35:35,254 --> 00:35:35,414
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
911
00:35:35,448 --> 00:35:35,949
[zaza]: yeah right
912
00:35:36,015 --> 00:35:36,195
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
913
00:35:36,109 --> 00:35:36,470
[zaza]: he was just
914
00:35:36,375 --> 00:35:36,496
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
915
00:35:36,530 --> 00:35:36,950
[zaza]: observing
916
00:35:36,576 --> 00:35:37,137
[edward_slingerland]: he just watched
917
00:35:36,991 --> 00:35:37,071
[zaza]: the
918
00:35:37,197 --> 00:35:37,357
[edward_slingerland]: them
919
00:35:37,211 --> 00:35:37,531
[zaza]: making
920
00:35:37,457 --> 00:35:37,658
[edward_slingerland]: drink
921
00:35:37,692 --> 00:35:39,354
[zaza]: fools out of themselves yeah exactly
922
00:35:40,923 --> 00:35:41,023
[edward_slingerland]: and
923
00:35:40,997 --> 00:35:41,238
[zaza]: right
924
00:35:41,083 --> 00:35:43,427
[edward_slingerland]: saying revealing things right so that's that's
925
00:35:43,260 --> 00:35:43,580
[zaza]: oh
926
00:35:43,467 --> 00:35:47,153
[edward_slingerland]: a really good example of how you
can you can use this human
927
00:35:47,349 --> 00:35:47,549
[zaza]: yes
928
00:35:47,394 --> 00:35:53,511
[edward_slingerland]: use it to gain social what they
view is genuine social information about other
929
00:35:53,510 --> 00:35:53,631
[zaza]: yeah
930
00:35:53,551 --> 00:35:53,792
[edward_slingerland]: people
931
00:35:56,704 --> 00:35:56,945
[zaza]: maybe
932
00:35:57,024 --> 00:35:59,484
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
933
00:35:57,086 --> 00:36:00,982
[zaza]: this is a cultural thing but or
a thing of the times but why do
934
00:36:01,042 --> 00:36:02,505
[zaza]: we suddenly hear alarm bells
935
00:36:02,236 --> 00:36:02,317
[edward_slingerland]: ah
936
00:36:02,865 --> 00:36:06,231
[zaza]: ringing when we hear of people who
have a drink alone
937
00:36:06,264 --> 00:36:06,645
[edward_slingerland]: oh
938
00:36:06,812 --> 00:36:10,358
[zaza]: like it's going to be completely okay
with everybody if i drink a a leader
939
00:36:10,538 --> 00:36:13,924
[zaza]: of yegermice on a night out with
my mates but
940
00:36:14,017 --> 00:36:14,198
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
941
00:36:14,024 --> 00:36:17,130
[zaza]: if somebody heard that i had a
beer while i was chilling at home watching
942
00:36:17,691 --> 00:36:22,600
[zaza]: love is blind they would immediately think
i have a bit of a problem not
943
00:36:22,660 --> 00:36:23,020
[zaza]: that i ever
944
00:36:23,077 --> 00:36:23,238
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
945
00:36:23,081 --> 00:36:24,243
[zaza]: do that you know i don't
946
00:36:24,685 --> 00:36:24,765
[edward_slingerland]: no
947
00:36:25,084 --> 00:36:25,184
[zaza]: but
948
00:36:25,086 --> 00:36:25,387
[edward_slingerland]: of course
949
00:36:25,224 --> 00:36:25,625
[zaza]: the double
950
00:36:25,507 --> 00:36:25,788
[edward_slingerland]: this is
951
00:36:25,745 --> 00:36:26,086
[zaza]: standard
952
00:36:25,989 --> 00:36:26,350
[edward_slingerland]: a friend
953
00:36:26,146 --> 00:36:26,687
[zaza]: is kind of real
954
00:36:26,951 --> 00:36:27,051
[edward_slingerland]: is
955
00:36:27,007 --> 00:36:27,167
[zaza]: not
956
00:36:27,112 --> 00:36:27,994
[edward_slingerland]: a friend you've heard of
957
00:36:27,989 --> 00:36:31,875
[zaza]: absolutely not it's absolutely this friend has
a lot of problems
958
00:36:32,814 --> 00:36:32,996
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
959
00:36:32,837 --> 00:36:35,906
[zaza]: but yeah why why is that so
why does it make us like per cup
960
00:36:36,227 --> 00:36:38,657
[zaza]: like really you had to be alone
what are you okay
961
00:36:40,124 --> 00:36:45,171
[edward_slingerland]: because we have an intuitive sense that
drinking alone is dangerous and so
962
00:36:46,890 --> 00:36:47,133
[zaza]: oh
963
00:36:47,414 --> 00:36:53,767
[edward_slingerland]: in the book i argued that alcohol
has become unusually dangerous in the last couple
964
00:36:53,807 --> 00:36:58,073
[edward_slingerland]: of hundred years much more dangerous than
it's been for most of our revolutionary history
965
00:36:59,244 --> 00:37:04,870
[edward_slingerland]: and the two dangers are our distillation
and isolation so so the first problem is
966
00:37:04,930 --> 00:37:07,613
[edward_slingerland]: we have yegermister now right we have
access to
967
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:08,020
[zaza]: yeah
968
00:37:08,584 --> 00:37:09,886
[edward_slingerland]: distilled liquors which
969
00:37:09,966 --> 00:37:10,147
[zaza]: yeah
970
00:37:10,347 --> 00:37:12,009
[edward_slingerland]: in europe are very recent
971
00:37:11,730 --> 00:37:11,972
[zaza]: yeah
972
00:37:12,170 --> 00:37:16,677
[edward_slingerland]: invention we didn't have and this was
a surprise to when i was doing the
973
00:37:16,737 --> 00:37:21,064
[edward_slingerland]: research of the book we didn't really
have access to distilled or s on a
974
00:37:21,125 --> 00:37:25,913
[edward_slingerland]: large scale until the sixteen hundred seventeen
hundred so that is a blink of an
975
00:37:26,033 --> 00:37:28,717
[edward_slingerland]: eye in the story that i'm telling
um
976
00:37:28,590 --> 00:37:28,610
[zaza]: m
977
00:37:29,679 --> 00:37:36,989
[edward_slingerland]: so it's recent distilled liquors essentially alcohol
has always come with a safety feature kind
978
00:37:37,029 --> 00:37:42,376
[edward_slingerland]: of built in safety feature which is
that natural fermentation can only get to a
979
00:37:42,416 --> 00:37:49,228
[edward_slingerland]: certain level before us they shut themselves
down and we've been ruthlessly pushing east to
980
00:37:49,288 --> 00:37:52,333
[edward_slingerland]: get more and more resistant donga that
we can make stronger
981
00:37:52,011 --> 00:37:52,113
[zaza]: oh
982
00:37:52,393 --> 00:37:59,084
[edward_slingerland]: and stronger beaters and wines but it
tops out pretty low so the strongest naturally
983
00:37:59,185 --> 00:38:05,015
[edward_slingerland]: fermented wine that you can make is
like an australian tara come in at like
984
00:38:05,155 --> 00:38:11,205
[edward_slingerland]: sixteen seventeen per cent a b v
m and historically that's wildly strong i mean
985
00:38:11,245 --> 00:38:15,392
[edward_slingerland]: we were for most of our history
we've been drinking two to three per cent
986
00:38:15,713 --> 00:38:20,461
[edward_slingerland]: a v v of alcohol by volume
beers and then fruit fruit wines
987
00:38:20,372 --> 00:38:20,454
[zaza]: at
988
00:38:20,481 --> 00:38:21,183
[edward_slingerland]: were probably a little
989
00:38:21,210 --> 00:38:21,373
[zaza]: oh
990
00:38:21,223 --> 00:38:25,916
[edward_slingerland]: bit stronger but not much more when
you invent distillation
991
00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:25,702
[zaza]: oh
992
00:38:26,016 --> 00:38:28,580
[edward_slingerland]: you suddenly completely blow away that
993
00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:29,370
[zaza]: yeah
994
00:38:28,820 --> 00:38:35,231
[edward_slingerland]: safety feature because now you can produce
a liquid that's like ninety percent abvvodcais goin
995
00:38:35,351 --> 00:38:42,014
[edward_slingerland]: hit the nineties um and we're just
not our bodies are not equipped deal with
996
00:38:42,175 --> 00:38:46,780
[edward_slingerland]: ethan all hitting our brain that quickly
so if you're drinking
997
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:46,700
[zaza]: m
998
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:52,745
[edward_slingerland]: at two to three per cent beer
you can drink all day long literally and
999
00:38:52,906 --> 00:38:53,166
[edward_slingerland]: never
1000
00:38:53,220 --> 00:38:53,442
[zaza]: yeah
1001
00:38:53,246 --> 00:38:57,533
[edward_slingerland]: really get beyond about point o eight
plod alcohol content which is kind of the
1002
00:38:57,553 --> 00:39:04,415
[edward_slingerland]: little buzz but not dangerously so if
you have access to yegermister vaca you can
1003
00:39:04,515 --> 00:39:11,037
[edward_slingerland]: blow right past point of eight and
get into like passing out dangerous territory in
1004
00:39:11,798 --> 00:39:17,087
[edward_slingerland]: fifteen minutes right it's just so we
have this really really strong form of alcohol
1005
00:39:17,167 --> 00:39:23,846
[edward_slingerland]: now which we never had before and
then the second problem its isolation so noticing
1006
00:39:23,886 --> 00:39:27,293
[edward_slingerland]: that that passage from ancient greece that
you read
1007
00:39:28,790 --> 00:39:28,931
[zaza]: yeah
1008
00:39:28,956 --> 00:39:31,802
[edward_slingerland]: the wise person when they reach a
certain level of drinking
1009
00:39:32,422 --> 00:39:32,887
[zaza]: yeah i think
1010
00:39:32,864 --> 00:39:33,065
[edward_slingerland]: books
1011
00:39:32,927 --> 00:39:33,291
[zaza]: it's four
1012
00:39:33,125 --> 00:39:40,347
[edward_slingerland]: says the passage as yeah for they
say you go home why is that important
1013
00:39:41,089 --> 00:39:45,185
[edward_slingerland]: because you don't have more alcohol at
home people don't drink alone
1014
00:39:45,060 --> 00:39:45,810
[zaza]: yeah
1015
00:39:45,245 --> 00:39:48,029
[edward_slingerland]: at home in traditional societies um
1016
00:39:48,090 --> 00:39:48,271
[zaza]: right
1017
00:39:48,629 --> 00:39:55,288
[edward_slingerland]: and having private access to alcohol is
a very new and weird thing for humans
1018
00:39:55,669 --> 00:39:56,050
[edward_slingerland]: and almost
1019
00:39:56,073 --> 00:39:56,155
[zaza]: oh
1020
00:39:56,190 --> 00:40:03,015
[edward_slingerland]: every culture that i know about drinking
is social and public and you don't do
1021
00:40:03,075 --> 00:40:09,104
[edward_slingerland]: it alone you don't have access to
alcohol outside of a social situation and so
1022
00:40:09,184 --> 00:40:16,436
[edward_slingerland]: for the ancient greeks they had these
wine gatherings these wine parties the symposium where
1023
00:40:16,576 --> 00:40:18,079
[edward_slingerland]: there was you know you would gather
1024
00:40:17,970 --> 00:40:18,212
[zaza]: yes
1025
00:40:18,119 --> 00:40:23,909
[edward_slingerland]: at some one's house the imposiarc the
person in charge of the ceremony the party
1026
00:40:24,670 --> 00:40:29,057
[edward_slingerland]: would be in charge of passing around
the wine they would decide how much water
1027
00:40:29,117 --> 00:40:34,195
[edward_slingerland]: it down the greeks used to water
their wine down and so they controlled the
1028
00:40:34,236 --> 00:40:38,817
[edward_slingerland]: drinking and if things started to get
out of hand they would wait and not
1029
00:40:38,918 --> 00:40:41,560
[edward_slingerland]: pass the line around for a bit
or they would put more water in it
1030
00:40:41,741 --> 00:40:41,881
[edward_slingerland]: right
1031
00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:42,498
[zaza]: yeah
1032
00:40:42,041 --> 00:40:43,503
[edward_slingerland]: they could control the amount you
1033
00:40:43,527 --> 00:40:43,548
[zaza]: a
1034
00:40:43,543 --> 00:40:49,912
[edward_slingerland]: drink um in ancient china and even
down to a traditional banquet in china today
1035
00:40:51,030 --> 00:40:51,050
[zaza]: m
1036
00:40:51,254 --> 00:40:52,986
[edward_slingerland]: you don't drink unless somebody makes
1037
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:53,121
[zaza]: yeah
1038
00:40:53,067 --> 00:40:56,615
[edward_slingerland]: a toast don't just sit there drinking
as much as you want you have a
1039
00:40:56,676 --> 00:41:00,767
[edward_slingerland]: cup at your side and it sits
there until some one makes a toast and
1040
00:41:00,787 --> 00:41:03,591
[edward_slingerland]: then you do a toast and then
someone re fails it for you and you
1041
00:41:03,651 --> 00:41:04,212
[edward_slingerland]: wait for the next
1042
00:41:04,210 --> 00:41:04,371
[zaza]: okay
1043
00:41:04,272 --> 00:41:04,472
[edward_slingerland]: toast
1044
00:41:04,411 --> 00:41:04,672
[zaza]: you don't
1045
00:41:04,532 --> 00:41:04,913
[edward_slingerland]: to happen
1046
00:41:04,733 --> 00:41:06,562
[zaza]: just grab the bottle and help yourself
1047
00:41:06,804 --> 00:41:10,550
[edward_slingerland]: yeah you don't help yourself and so
that controls the pace of drinking
1048
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:11,523
[zaza]: oh
1049
00:41:11,231 --> 00:41:15,919
[edward_slingerland]: so humans have all these ways both
formal you know these are kind of more
1050
00:41:16,039 --> 00:41:21,100
[edward_slingerland]: formal obvious rituals but even if you
about going to the pub with your friends
1051
00:41:22,658 --> 00:41:24,970
[edward_slingerland]: typically you order in rounds
1052
00:41:24,891 --> 00:41:24,972
[zaza]: ah
1053
00:41:25,834 --> 00:41:30,438
[edward_slingerland]: so if you have drinking problem and
you down your beer immediately and you want
1054
00:41:30,478 --> 00:41:34,401
[edward_slingerland]: another one you have to wait until
i'm done with mine and then we can
1055
00:41:34,481 --> 00:41:35,242
[edward_slingerland]: order another round
1056
00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:37,188
[zaza]: oh
1057
00:41:37,364 --> 00:41:42,532
[edward_slingerland]: if you're drinking too much the bar
tender or the cocktail server may not make
1058
00:41:42,612 --> 00:41:45,417
[edward_slingerland]: eye contact with you they may walk
by and
1059
00:41:45,390 --> 00:41:45,691
[zaza]: oh
1060
00:41:45,477 --> 00:41:48,763
[edward_slingerland]: not fill your drink order because they
think you had too much we have all
1061
00:41:48,843 --> 00:41:50,507
[edward_slingerland]: these ways is both formal
1062
00:41:50,141 --> 00:41:50,303
[zaza]: yes
1063
00:41:50,768 --> 00:41:55,780
[edward_slingerland]: and informal ways regulating each other's drinking
when we're drinking together
1064
00:41:56,349 --> 00:41:56,370
[zaza]: m
1065
00:41:56,954 --> 00:42:02,304
[edward_slingerland]: i talk about this anthropologist who studied
drinking and i think it was norway and
1066
00:42:02,484 --> 00:42:07,693
[edward_slingerland]: in the most informal situation you can
imagine which is a house party so just
1067
00:42:08,074 --> 00:42:09,296
[edward_slingerland]: kids teen agers
1068
00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:09,094
[zaza]: yeah
1069
00:42:09,596 --> 00:42:12,421
[edward_slingerland]: going to somebody's house and getting drunk
but
1070
00:42:12,460 --> 00:42:12,480
[zaza]: i
1071
00:42:12,461 --> 00:42:12,541
[edward_slingerland]: the
1072
00:42:12,540 --> 00:42:12,661
[zaza]: have
1073
00:42:12,601 --> 00:42:13,082
[edward_slingerland]: anthropology
1074
00:42:12,701 --> 00:42:13,262
[zaza]: some horrible
1075
00:42:13,102 --> 00:42:13,523
[edward_slingerland]: is noted
1076
00:42:13,322 --> 00:42:15,366
[zaza]: memories of that please continue
1077
00:42:15,604 --> 00:42:20,711
[edward_slingerland]: okay but the anthea just pointed out
at least in norway there was a very
1078
00:42:20,790 --> 00:42:21,010
[zaza]: yeah
1079
00:42:20,851 --> 00:42:23,329
[edward_slingerland]: strong norm you don't
1080
00:42:23,879 --> 00:42:24,264
[zaza]: yeah oh
1081
00:42:24,544 --> 00:42:25,686
[edward_slingerland]: throw away your recycle
1082
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:25,701
[zaza]: oh
1083
00:42:25,786 --> 00:42:29,633
[edward_slingerland]: your bottles if you finish a bottle
it goes next to you at your seat
1084
00:42:30,974 --> 00:42:34,357
[edward_slingerland]: it's like a visible sign of how
much you've drunk and everyone can see it
1085
00:42:34,777 --> 00:42:39,802
[edward_slingerland]: and so there's a way of signaling
how much you've had to drink to other
1086
00:42:39,903 --> 00:42:45,436
[edward_slingerland]: people it's going to be at least
subconsciously restraining you a bit we have all
1087
00:42:45,330 --> 00:42:45,634
[zaza]: oh
1088
00:42:45,496 --> 00:42:46,377
[edward_slingerland]: these subtle cues
1089
00:42:46,313 --> 00:42:46,333
[zaza]: a
1090
00:42:46,477 --> 00:42:51,245
[edward_slingerland]: we use you know over the dinner
table where you know whatever your you know
1091
00:42:51,325 --> 00:42:55,012
[edward_slingerland]: you're drinking at your girl friend's house
or something and you go to reach for
1092
00:42:55,052 --> 00:42:58,836
[edward_slingerland]: the wine and pour your s another
glass and her mom gives you a little
1093
00:42:58,896 --> 00:43:03,921
[edward_slingerland]: look like you really need that right
we have all these ways we we we
1094
00:43:04,181 --> 00:43:04,982
[edward_slingerland]: moderate each other
1095
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:05,970
[zaza]: oh
1096
00:43:05,402 --> 00:43:10,795
[edward_slingerland]: when we're in person all of that
goes out the door we have when you
1097
00:43:10,835 --> 00:43:14,120
[edward_slingerland]: can sit alone in your apartment in
front of the t v and you have
1098
00:43:14,741 --> 00:43:17,125
[edward_slingerland]: endless supply of vodka or miser
1099
00:43:17,162 --> 00:43:17,387
[zaza]: right
1100
00:43:17,386 --> 00:43:23,457
[edward_slingerland]: beer um so drinking alone is really
dain or as we're not designed to do
1101
00:43:23,557 --> 00:43:28,397
[edward_slingerland]: it we've we've never done it historically
and for a really good reason and it's
1102
00:43:28,477 --> 00:43:34,128
[edward_slingerland]: because as individuals it's very difficult to
moderate our drinking when we're doing it alone
1103
00:43:35,089 --> 00:43:42,365
[edward_slingerland]: and you see the extreme form of
this happened in the pandemic so it's an
1104
00:43:42,426 --> 00:43:47,852
[edward_slingerland]: interesting natural experiment that you can never
get permission to do but it just happened
1105
00:43:49,494 --> 00:43:53,271
[edward_slingerland]: where all of a sudden every you
know government said you have to stay home
1106
00:43:53,561 --> 00:43:53,722
[zaza]: yeah
1107
00:43:54,044 --> 00:43:58,658
[edward_slingerland]: you can't socialize you can have as
much alcohol delivered to your house as you
1108
00:43:58,718 --> 00:44:00,300
[edward_slingerland]: want so good luck
1109
00:44:00,450 --> 00:44:00,650
[zaza]: yeah
1110
00:44:01,683 --> 00:44:04,587
[edward_slingerland]: and it was a disaster like drinking
there's there's now
1111
00:44:04,509 --> 00:44:04,650
[zaza]: right
1112
00:44:04,868 --> 00:44:08,113
[edward_slingerland]: you know we're far enough out of
lock downs now that there's good date on
1113
00:44:08,996 --> 00:44:10,079
[edward_slingerland]: that problem drinking
1114
00:44:09,990 --> 00:44:10,192
[zaza]: okay
1115
00:44:10,179 --> 00:44:13,509
[edward_slingerland]: went through the roof during the pandemic
alcoholism
1116
00:44:13,241 --> 00:44:13,666
[zaza]: makes sense
1117
00:44:13,609 --> 00:44:18,985
[edward_slingerland]: rates went way up because you know
it's a what happens when you have access
1118
00:44:19,025 --> 00:44:27,894
[edward_slingerland]: to alcohol but not social constraints it
gets really bad so that's you know it's
1119
00:44:27,934 --> 00:44:31,658
[edward_slingerland]: a real danger drinking alone so that's
why people when you say yeah you know
1120
00:44:31,938 --> 00:44:32,318
[edward_slingerland]: i was home
1121
00:44:32,250 --> 00:44:32,910
[zaza]: oh
1122
00:44:32,358 --> 00:44:36,143
[edward_slingerland]: alone drinking people worry about it it's
because we have this intuitive sense
1123
00:44:35,889 --> 00:44:36,281
[zaza]: m my
1124
00:44:36,303 --> 00:44:36,503
[edward_slingerland]: that
1125
00:44:36,361 --> 00:44:37,567
[zaza]: friend but yeah
1126
00:44:37,965 --> 00:44:42,053
[edward_slingerland]: yeah your friend whatever this guy who
has a problem with masturbation
1127
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,280
[zaza]: yeah
1128
00:44:42,173 --> 00:44:44,377
[edward_slingerland]: in twinkles and yeah so
1129
00:44:44,550 --> 00:44:46,590
[zaza]: yeah
1130
00:44:45,799 --> 00:44:47,543
[edward_slingerland]: we know intuitively that
1131
00:44:48,471 --> 00:44:48,632
[zaza]: oh
1132
00:44:48,594 --> 00:44:58,208
[edward_slingerland]: drinking socially safer it's more normal and
we worry about people who are turning to
1133
00:44:58,329 --> 00:44:59,552
[edward_slingerland]: alcohol when they're alone
1134
00:45:02,971 --> 00:45:03,873
[zaza]: is there any connection
1135
00:45:03,954 --> 00:45:04,276
[edward_slingerland]: oh
1136
00:45:04,053 --> 00:45:07,018
[zaza]: between colder places and alcohol consumption i'm
1137
00:45:06,924 --> 00:45:08,754
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1138
00:45:07,038 --> 00:45:09,622
[zaza]: from eastern europe originally so i'm trying
to find any
1139
00:45:09,554 --> 00:45:09,698
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1140
00:45:09,703 --> 00:45:13,349
[zaza]: sort of justification for our general affinity
1141
00:45:12,811 --> 00:45:13,012
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1142
00:45:13,569 --> 00:45:14,491
[zaza]: to the i mean
1143
00:45:15,414 --> 00:45:15,674
[edward_slingerland]: oh
1144
00:45:15,432 --> 00:45:22,003
[zaza]: now that you are saying you know
explaining all of these kind of social break
1145
00:45:22,123 --> 00:45:22,584
[zaza]: systems
1146
00:45:22,284 --> 00:45:22,530
[edward_slingerland]: oh
1147
00:45:22,744 --> 00:45:25,809
[zaza]: you know i don't think at least
when i was younger we didn't have many
1148
00:45:25,664 --> 00:45:25,725
[edward_slingerland]: ah
1149
00:45:25,930 --> 00:45:27,432
[zaza]: of those that's why
1150
00:45:27,353 --> 00:45:27,474
[edward_slingerland]: no
1151
00:45:28,274 --> 00:45:31,880
[zaza]: i remember my ten years with a
bit of horror like our idea of a
1152
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:33,382
[zaza]: good time was when you were
1153
00:45:33,354 --> 00:45:33,715
[edward_slingerland]: oh
1154
00:45:33,422 --> 00:45:38,431
[zaza]: sixteen or seventeen years old was to
buy the cheapest you know four of booze
1155
00:45:38,491 --> 00:45:39,833
[zaza]: and then get absolutely
1156
00:45:39,353 --> 00:45:40,026
[edward_slingerland]: yeah yeah
1157
00:45:39,913 --> 00:45:41,436
[zaza]: annihilated every weekend
1158
00:45:41,664 --> 00:45:41,825
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1159
00:45:41,736 --> 00:45:46,464
[zaza]: it was almost a competition you know
obligatory vomiting almost it was
1160
00:45:46,458 --> 00:45:46,598
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1161
00:45:46,524 --> 00:45:52,040
[zaza]: extremely funny if someone would wet themselves
and stuff i'm surprised all of us are
1162
00:45:52,161 --> 00:45:55,151
[zaza]: still here i'm sure it's all got
to do
1163
00:45:55,254 --> 00:45:56,136
[edward_slingerland]: oh
1164
00:45:55,271 --> 00:46:00,440
[zaza]: something with ten aged uns and you
know being super self conscious and feeling awkward
1165
00:46:01,221 --> 00:46:02,704
[zaza]: all the time and an alcohol kind
1166
00:46:02,754 --> 00:46:02,974
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1167
00:46:02,764 --> 00:46:05,288
[zaza]: of forgets you i mean helps you
1168
00:46:05,218 --> 00:46:05,398
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1169
00:46:05,589 --> 00:46:09,660
[zaza]: forget about but still there's probably better
ways for teen agers to deal with all
1170
00:46:09,701 --> 00:46:11,245
[zaza]: of that i wish we didn't do
1171
00:46:11,288 --> 00:46:11,468
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1172
00:46:11,305 --> 00:46:12,168
[zaza]: that to be honest
1173
00:46:13,051 --> 00:46:16,056
[edward_slingerland]: yeah not everyone does that so you
come
1174
00:46:16,110 --> 00:46:16,312
[zaza]: oh
1175
00:46:16,196 --> 00:46:17,678
[edward_slingerland]: from a particularly unhealthy
1176
00:46:17,748 --> 00:46:17,850
[zaza]: yeah
1177
00:46:17,799 --> 00:46:20,423
[edward_slingerland]: drinking culture culture
1178
00:46:20,351 --> 00:46:20,512
[zaza]: why
1179
00:46:20,503 --> 00:46:20,904
[edward_slingerland]: matters
1180
00:46:20,592 --> 00:46:22,716
[zaza]: am i not surprised right
1181
00:46:22,567 --> 00:46:24,349
[edward_slingerland]: yeah yeah so that in the book
1182
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:24,421
[zaza]: yeah
1183
00:46:24,430 --> 00:46:30,079
[edward_slingerland]: i talk about what anthropol is called
northern versus southern drinking cultures and they're talking
1184
00:46:30,099 --> 00:46:36,530
[edward_slingerland]: about europe but eastern europe is a
northern culture in this sense and so northern
1185
00:46:36,570 --> 00:46:43,470
[edward_slingerland]: drinking cultures as you say about drinking
to get drunk it's typically all men were
1186
00:46:43,550 --> 00:46:47,421
[edward_slingerland]: sometimes all women but it's not mixed
groups it tends to be you know same
1187
00:46:47,541 --> 00:46:54,231
[edward_slingerland]: gender it's competitive you're kind of you're
not cool if don't get really drunk you
1188
00:46:54,291 --> 00:46:57,296
[edward_slingerland]: have to get really drunk you're typically
1189
00:46:57,090 --> 00:46:57,400
[zaza]: oh
1190
00:46:57,376 --> 00:46:58,758
[edward_slingerland]: drinking distilled liquors
1191
00:46:58,560 --> 00:46:58,786
[zaza]: oh
1192
00:46:59,459 --> 00:47:01,161
[edward_slingerland]: the strongest kind of alcohol you can
1193
00:47:01,132 --> 00:47:01,273
[zaza]: yep
1194
00:47:01,201 --> 00:47:06,850
[edward_slingerland]: get your hands on it's not in
the context of a meal or anything social
1195
00:47:06,950 --> 00:47:09,013
[edward_slingerland]: in that sense it's a drinking competition
1196
00:47:08,809 --> 00:47:08,991
[zaza]: nope
1197
00:47:09,815 --> 00:47:10,175
[edward_slingerland]: um
1198
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:11,244
[zaza]: oh
1199
00:47:11,017 --> 00:47:16,286
[edward_slingerland]: those are northern cultures it's forbidden to
children in so then as soon as you
1200
00:47:16,326 --> 00:47:18,710
[edward_slingerland]: can get your hands on it as
a teen ager you want to do it
1201
00:47:18,790 --> 00:47:20,533
[edward_slingerland]: because anything you're told is bad
1202
00:47:20,210 --> 00:47:20,372
[zaza]: right
1203
00:47:20,893 --> 00:47:25,080
[edward_slingerland]: that only grown ups can do you
want to do as soon as possible so
1204
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:32,272
[edward_slingerland]: it's a kind of taboo substance um
that leads to this kind of really unhealthy
1205
00:47:32,412 --> 00:47:38,222
[edward_slingerland]: drinking if you can contrast that with
southern cultures so think of like italy or
1206
00:47:38,342 --> 00:47:40,635
[edward_slingerland]: spain and there
1207
00:47:41,340 --> 00:47:42,480
[zaza]: yeah
1208
00:47:41,516 --> 00:47:46,765
[edward_slingerland]: typically alcohol you tend to not drink
very much distilled liquors you're drinking mostly beer
1209
00:47:46,825 --> 00:47:51,894
[edward_slingerland]: and wine you're drinking it always in
the context of a meal so it's rare
1210
00:47:52,075 --> 00:47:59,767
[edward_slingerland]: the meal table lunch or dinner everyone's
doing it kids parents grandparents
1211
00:47:59,970 --> 00:48:00,175
[zaza]: yes
1212
00:48:00,068 --> 00:48:03,974
[edward_slingerland]: everybody is at the dinner table everyone's
drinking so the kids are drinking they're giving
1213
00:48:04,175 --> 00:48:06,999
[edward_slingerland]: wine water down you know just to
feel like the
1214
00:48:07,492 --> 00:48:07,593
[zaza]: ah
1215
00:48:08,041 --> 00:48:16,454
[edward_slingerland]: the group drinking to the point of
becoming visibly drunk it's shameful something a grown
1216
00:48:16,534 --> 00:48:19,357
[edward_slingerland]: up doesn't do so you you
1217
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:20,670
[zaza]: yeah
1218
00:48:20,177 --> 00:48:25,402
[edward_slingerland]: restrain yourself and you're helped to restrain
yourself because you're drinking weaker forms of alcohol
1219
00:48:25,502 --> 00:48:29,535
[edward_slingerland]: you're doing it with food and the
other thing is you don't drink away
1220
00:48:29,463 --> 00:48:29,483
[zaza]: i
1221
00:48:29,616 --> 00:48:35,600
[edward_slingerland]: from the meal table so i can
remember that my x wife is half italian
1222
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:35,821
[edward_slingerland]: and we
1223
00:48:35,790 --> 00:48:36,660
[zaza]: yeah
1224
00:48:35,921 --> 00:48:38,565
[edward_slingerland]: spent a lot of time in italy
and
1225
00:48:38,643 --> 00:48:38,664
[zaza]: a
1226
00:48:38,645 --> 00:48:43,553
[edward_slingerland]: my first time visiting her family in
italy that his wonderful meal with is amazing
1227
00:48:43,614 --> 00:48:45,697
[edward_slingerland]: italian wine i will have italian wine
1228
00:48:45,581 --> 00:48:45,742
[zaza]: yeah
1229
00:48:45,997 --> 00:48:49,844
[edward_slingerland]: much better than anything i could get
in canada and so we finished dinner and
1230
00:48:49,904 --> 00:48:52,168
[edward_slingerland]: i poured myself in a glass to
take up
1231
00:48:52,170 --> 00:48:52,830
[zaza]: yeah
1232
00:48:52,248 --> 00:48:55,533
[edward_slingerland]: to my room because i wanted to
take notes on it and really favor ite
1233
00:48:56,174 --> 00:49:00,060
[edward_slingerland]: i remember pouring myself another glass and
standing up from the table and walking away
1234
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:04,988
[edward_slingerland]: with it and everyone looking at me
like the fur you doing like you what
1235
00:49:05,028 --> 00:49:05,890
[edward_slingerland]: are you doing are you an
1236
00:49:05,940 --> 00:49:06,870
[zaza]: yeah
1237
00:49:05,970 --> 00:49:09,959
[edward_slingerland]: alcoholic why would you take wine to
your room like you don't drink away from
1238
00:49:09,999 --> 00:49:17,097
[edward_slingerland]: the meal table it's weird all of
that all of that helps people to drink
1239
00:49:17,257 --> 00:49:24,750
[edward_slingerland]: more safely right and you see this
in the statistics because it italy for instance
1240
00:49:24,830 --> 00:49:29,511
[edward_slingerland]: has the hot i think the highest
part i put an alcohol consumption in europe
1241
00:49:30,354 --> 00:49:32,821
[edward_slingerland]: but they have i think the lowest
alcohol
1242
00:49:32,730 --> 00:49:34,260
[zaza]: oh
1243
00:49:32,861 --> 00:49:35,747
[edward_slingerland]: is right so blot of alcohol drinking
1244
00:49:35,590 --> 00:49:35,752
[zaza]: yep
1245
00:49:35,987 --> 00:49:37,169
[edward_slingerland]: very low alcoholism
1246
00:49:36,750 --> 00:49:36,971
[zaza]: yeah
1247
00:49:38,191 --> 00:49:44,401
[edward_slingerland]: places like russia or the u k
and order drinking cultures don't drink as much
1248
00:49:44,501 --> 00:49:48,049
[edward_slingerland]: per capita but they have hired they
are very high alcohol is a level and
1249
00:49:48,390 --> 00:49:53,178
[edward_slingerland]: to me that suggests probably not actually
we know it's not a genetic difference because
1250
00:49:53,218 --> 00:49:59,817
[edward_slingerland]: we have nice controlled experiments where we
have italians in italy and italian americans so
1251
00:49:59,917 --> 00:50:07,029
[edward_slingerland]: genetically identical people in different cultures italians
in italy have low alcoholism rates italian americans
1252
00:50:07,089 --> 00:50:09,673
[edward_slingerland]: have much higher alcoholism rates because they've
adopted
1253
00:50:09,181 --> 00:50:09,201
[zaza]: m
1254
00:50:09,774 --> 00:50:16,147
[edward_slingerland]: this american drinking habits which come from
the northern culture so so culture really matters
1255
00:50:16,488 --> 00:50:16,568
[edward_slingerland]: and
1256
00:50:17,267 --> 00:50:17,488
[zaza]: right
1257
00:50:17,490 --> 00:50:17,710
[edward_slingerland]: being
1258
00:50:17,649 --> 00:50:17,790
[zaza]: your
1259
00:50:17,770 --> 00:50:17,931
[edward_slingerland]: in the
1260
00:50:17,871 --> 00:50:18,334
[zaza]: description
1261
00:50:17,971 --> 00:50:18,492
[edward_slingerland]: right drinking
1262
00:50:18,435 --> 00:50:18,495
[zaza]: of
1263
00:50:18,572 --> 00:50:18,952
[edward_slingerland]: culture
1264
00:50:19,770 --> 00:50:21,411
[zaza]: yeah yeah your description of a
1265
00:50:21,414 --> 00:50:22,464
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1266
00:50:21,491 --> 00:50:25,715
[zaza]: northern drinking culture was kind of are
in how accurate
1267
00:50:25,788 --> 00:50:25,929
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1268
00:50:25,815 --> 00:50:30,259
[zaza]: it was if i apply it to
my you know my own history and culture
1269
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:31,461
[zaza]: um
1270
00:50:31,474 --> 00:50:31,634
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1271
00:50:31,541 --> 00:50:32,062
[zaza]: so i hope
1272
00:50:31,894 --> 00:50:32,555
[edward_slingerland]: and that's a really
1273
00:50:32,362 --> 00:50:32,503
[zaza]: my
1274
00:50:32,656 --> 00:50:33,277
[edward_slingerland]: dangerous way
1275
00:50:33,164 --> 00:50:33,444
[zaza]: eastern
1276
00:50:33,337 --> 00:50:33,717
[edward_slingerland]: to drink
1277
00:50:33,524 --> 00:50:38,413
[zaza]: european brothers and sisters are listening to
us right now and that we start importing
1278
00:50:38,513 --> 00:50:40,156
[zaza]: something else than pizza from italy
1279
00:50:41,110 --> 00:50:41,751
[edward_slingerland]: yeah yeah
1280
00:50:43,630 --> 00:50:46,775
[zaza]: right yeah during your
1281
00:50:46,974 --> 00:50:47,196
[edward_slingerland]: oh
1282
00:50:48,037 --> 00:50:52,485
[zaza]: conversation that you had with joe rogan
on his podcast you said that we really
1283
00:50:52,565 --> 00:50:52,785
[zaza]: like
1284
00:50:52,584 --> 00:50:52,884
[edward_slingerland]: oh
1285
00:50:52,845 --> 00:50:56,311
[zaza]: to get out of our own heads
which i thought was really
1286
00:50:56,293 --> 00:50:56,334
[edward_slingerland]: h
1287
00:50:56,411 --> 00:50:57,633
[zaza]: interesting hence
1288
00:50:57,324 --> 00:50:57,524
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1289
00:50:57,954 --> 00:51:02,802
[zaza]: the use of intoxicants might be a
bit of a philosophical question but since you
1290
00:51:02,902 --> 00:51:06,348
[zaza]: do teach philosophy i can ask you
this what are we trying so
1291
00:51:06,354 --> 00:51:06,696
[edward_slingerland]: oh
1292
00:51:06,448 --> 00:51:07,653
[zaza]: hard to escape from
1293
00:51:10,426 --> 00:51:11,889
[edward_slingerland]: this is a trickier question
1294
00:51:14,163 --> 00:51:14,364
[zaza]: nice
1295
00:51:14,764 --> 00:51:22,076
[edward_slingerland]: conscious consciousness is a good thing so
my ability to use my prefroncorttext to monitor
1296
00:51:22,256 --> 00:51:28,926
[edward_slingerland]: my behavior and tell me if i
am talking too long a i were at
1297
00:51:28,986 --> 00:51:32,794
[edward_slingerland]: a time and i have an appointment
i need to get to this kind of
1298
00:51:32,954 --> 00:51:34,597
[edward_slingerland]: self survelance
1299
00:51:34,062 --> 00:51:34,144
[zaza]: no
1300
00:51:34,697 --> 00:51:39,952
[edward_slingerland]: and self regulation that we're engaging in
all the time it's really important is you
1301
00:51:39,992 --> 00:51:44,836
[edward_slingerland]: need to be successful adults we need
to do this it's exhausting you it takes
1302
00:51:44,957 --> 00:51:45,137
[edward_slingerland]: a lot
1303
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:45,481
[zaza]: oh
1304
00:51:45,197 --> 00:51:52,567
[edward_slingerland]: of energy and so i think there's
just something appealing about losing losing that self
1305
00:51:52,667 --> 00:51:53,027
[edward_slingerland]: control
1306
00:51:53,370 --> 00:51:53,390
[zaza]: m
1307
00:51:53,608 --> 00:51:59,299
[edward_slingerland]: taking a little vacation from self motoring
and there's lots of ways we could do
1308
00:51:59,359 --> 00:52:04,085
[edward_slingerland]: that so we can get into that
state by play so you know when we
1309
00:52:04,225 --> 00:52:06,208
[edward_slingerland]: play a sport we play a game
1310
00:52:06,879 --> 00:52:06,900
[zaza]: m
1311
00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:12,619
[edward_slingerland]: or even when we participate as spectators
in a game so we watch the world
1312
00:52:12,699 --> 00:52:16,106
[edward_slingerland]: cup where we watch a t v
show or get a bed in a story
1313
00:52:16,470 --> 00:52:16,710
[zaza]: yes
1314
00:52:16,647 --> 00:52:21,341
[edward_slingerland]: or we read a novel that's very
gripping and that consist involved out of our
1315
00:52:21,421 --> 00:52:30,404
[edward_slingerland]: heads that's pleasurable so human seem to
enjoy taking a break from ourselves and i
1316
00:52:30,464 --> 00:52:35,753
[edward_slingerland]: think it's probably just a cogative version
of why we like to sit down every
1317
00:52:35,833 --> 00:52:39,559
[edward_slingerland]: once in a while you know we
just get tired and it's nice to sit
1318
00:52:39,619 --> 00:52:43,349
[edward_slingerland]: on the couch and rest i think
that having
1319
00:52:43,380 --> 00:52:44,640
[zaza]: yeah
1320
00:52:43,409 --> 00:52:47,264
[edward_slingerland]: a drink playing a game watching t
v
1321
00:52:49,392 --> 00:52:49,494
[zaza]: oh
1322
00:52:49,564 --> 00:52:50,469
[edward_slingerland]: going to the theater
1323
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:51,810
[zaza]: yeah
1324
00:52:51,915 --> 00:52:52,757
[edward_slingerland]: these are ways
1325
00:52:52,350 --> 00:52:52,651
[zaza]: oh
1326
00:52:53,017 --> 00:52:56,864
[edward_slingerland]: it's the cogative equivalent of resting on
the couch or lying down for a bit
1327
00:52:57,045 --> 00:52:58,207
[edward_slingerland]: we just were tired of
1328
00:52:58,270 --> 00:52:58,411
[zaza]: yep
1329
00:52:58,327 --> 00:53:00,932
[edward_slingerland]: running our p f c all the
time and we just want to turn it
1330
00:53:01,052 --> 00:53:01,192
[edward_slingerland]: off
1331
00:53:01,410 --> 00:53:01,631
[zaza]: yeah
1332
00:53:02,044 --> 00:53:03,188
[edward_slingerland]: so i think i think that's part
1333
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:03,600
[zaza]: yeah
1334
00:53:03,208 --> 00:53:03,911
[edward_slingerland]: of what's going on
1335
00:53:04,682 --> 00:53:08,549
[zaza]: that sounds kind of reassuring all right
drawing drawing to
1336
00:53:08,544 --> 00:53:08,786
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1337
00:53:08,609 --> 00:53:10,592
[zaza]: a close i'm a big fan of
1338
00:53:10,644 --> 00:53:10,947
[edward_slingerland]: oh
1339
00:53:10,672 --> 00:53:13,557
[zaza]: i got to ask you this i'm
a big fan of bohemian characters especially this
1340
00:53:13,617 --> 00:53:16,161
[zaza]: type of nineteenth century of an alcoholic
1341
00:53:16,294 --> 00:53:16,374
[edward_slingerland]: ah
1342
00:53:16,322 --> 00:53:20,248
[zaza]: artist i just read about the famous
french painter to lose la trac who is
1343
00:53:20,308 --> 00:53:25,236
[zaza]: not only a very heavy drinker but
invented his own cocktail which i believe he
1344
00:53:25,316 --> 00:53:26,298
[zaza]: just mixed konak
1345
00:53:26,003 --> 00:53:26,103
[edward_slingerland]: eh
1346
00:53:26,378 --> 00:53:31,547
[zaza]: and absent a tall glass wine i
think he called it the earthquake i mean
1347
00:53:31,384 --> 00:53:32,044
[edward_slingerland]: sounds terrible
1348
00:53:32,188 --> 00:53:35,353
[zaza]: just watching people like drinking movies also
1349
00:53:35,688 --> 00:53:35,829
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1350
00:53:36,375 --> 00:53:38,979
[zaza]: i don't know if you've ever seen
madman the t v show but the best
1351
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:44,428
[zaza]: it is just how don draper the
protagonist and his colleagues are just sipping whiskey
1352
00:53:44,789 --> 00:53:45,089
[zaza]: you know
1353
00:53:45,064 --> 00:53:45,244
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1354
00:53:45,310 --> 00:53:48,535
[zaza]: at every meeting dressed in suits like
every afternoon
1355
00:53:48,430 --> 00:53:48,590
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1356
00:53:49,457 --> 00:53:51,059
[zaza]: somewhere in the book you also mentioned
1357
00:53:50,974 --> 00:53:51,174
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1358
00:53:51,140 --> 00:53:55,527
[zaza]: one of my favorite movies the big
labowski i think i mean would he be
1359
00:53:55,608 --> 00:53:59,455
[zaza]: the same without sipping on white russians
all the time
1360
00:53:59,484 --> 00:53:59,767
[edward_slingerland]: oh
1361
00:53:59,635 --> 00:54:01,558
[zaza]: probably not right so what makes
1362
00:54:01,514 --> 00:54:01,716
[edward_slingerland]: right
1363
00:54:02,250 --> 00:54:06,647
[zaza]: just seeing somebody drink in a piece
of art so appealing
1364
00:54:08,899 --> 00:54:12,186
[edward_slingerland]: well i think so these portrayals of
artists is just part
1365
00:54:12,163 --> 00:54:12,183
[zaza]: i
1366
00:54:12,226 --> 00:54:19,589
[edward_slingerland]: of this trope where use we associate
creativity with alcohol or canabusum and that's not
1367
00:54:19,650 --> 00:54:23,456
[edward_slingerland]: a myth that there's actually a good
reason we have that association so that's part
1368
00:54:23,496 --> 00:54:28,003
[edward_slingerland]: of it you know you see these
creative types um you know in the business
1369
00:54:28,104 --> 00:54:28,645
[edward_slingerland]: context
1370
00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:29,280
[zaza]: yeah
1371
00:54:29,085 --> 00:54:32,972
[edward_slingerland]: business drinking in the case of bad
men it's partly for
1372
00:54:32,940 --> 00:54:33,142
[zaza]: yeah
1373
00:54:33,072 --> 00:54:35,276
[edward_slingerland]: creativity right partly they're trying to come
up with new
1374
00:54:35,332 --> 00:54:35,353
[zaza]: m
1375
00:54:35,396 --> 00:54:40,725
[edward_slingerland]: ideas they are in a creative profession
but partly it's the bonding think this is
1376
00:54:40,785 --> 00:54:47,175
[edward_slingerland]: why people in businesses that are astray
creative still use alcohol and business functions gets
1377
00:54:47,182 --> 00:54:47,366
[zaza]: yeah
1378
00:54:47,235 --> 00:54:52,786
[edward_slingerland]: a way to relax everyone and get
them to feel better about each other so
1379
00:54:52,826 --> 00:54:55,155
[edward_slingerland]: i think we you know it's interesting
because part
1380
00:54:55,125 --> 00:54:55,146
[zaza]: a
1381
00:54:55,215 --> 00:55:00,677
[edward_slingerland]: of what i'm arguing against in drunk
is looking at alcohol purely from a medicalized
1382
00:55:00,858 --> 00:55:02,364
[edward_slingerland]: point of view our
1383
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:02,641
[zaza]: yeah
1384
00:55:02,485 --> 00:55:11,048
[edward_slingerland]: public discourse on alcohol is purely medicalized
it's all about it's physiological impact and if
1385
00:55:11,108 --> 00:55:16,978
[edward_slingerland]: you are looking at alcohol that way
the only safe amount of drink is probably
1386
00:55:17,098 --> 00:55:18,841
[edward_slingerland]: zero where this
1387
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:19,800
[zaza]: yeah
1388
00:55:18,901 --> 00:55:19,663
[edward_slingerland]: is not very much
1389
00:55:19,980 --> 00:55:20,262
[zaza]: yeah
1390
00:55:20,684 --> 00:55:24,190
[edward_slingerland]: and that's the conclusion of these famous
studies that have come out recently in the
1391
00:55:24,631 --> 00:55:26,595
[edward_slingerland]: lancet this british medical journal
1392
00:55:26,340 --> 00:55:26,461
[zaza]: yeah
1393
00:55:27,419 --> 00:55:28,614
[edward_slingerland]: um and
1394
00:55:28,530 --> 00:55:28,776
[zaza]: oh
1395
00:55:28,634 --> 00:55:32,417
[edward_slingerland]: yet if you look at popular culture
if you look at movies if you look
1396
00:55:32,537 --> 00:55:37,822
[edward_slingerland]: at literature if you look at the
way real people actually behave in their real
1397
00:55:37,922 --> 00:55:45,562
[edward_slingerland]: lives we make a role for intoxicins
than we enjoy intoxicins we enjoy characters who
1398
00:55:45,623 --> 00:55:53,978
[edward_slingerland]: were using intoxicans because we recognize implicitly
that they play a function manner live they
1399
00:55:54,058 --> 00:55:59,138
[edward_slingerland]: helped to make humans human and so
i think that the problem is we're not
1400
00:55:59,378 --> 00:56:03,886
[edward_slingerland]: articulate about what those functions are we
know they exist but we don't think about
1401
00:56:03,946 --> 00:56:07,492
[edward_slingerland]: them consciously and we probably never sat
down and thought oh this is why i
1402
00:56:07,692 --> 00:56:12,721
[edward_slingerland]: use all hall on a first date
or something you know why do you first
1403
00:56:12,801 --> 00:56:16,787
[edward_slingerland]: date you don't go and do meth
together right and
1404
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:17,061
[zaza]: yeah
1405
00:56:16,847 --> 00:56:20,734
[edward_slingerland]: you don't even drink coffee or smoke
a cigarette you have a glass of and
1406
00:56:21,576 --> 00:56:22,397
[edward_slingerland]: m that's not an
1407
00:56:22,470 --> 00:56:22,733
[zaza]: oh
1408
00:56:22,558 --> 00:56:29,111
[edward_slingerland]: accident it's doing something socially important so
the what i hope will happen with the
1409
00:56:29,171 --> 00:56:37,217
[edward_slingerland]: drunk is that by laying out explicitly
what these functions are and what the adaptive
1410
00:56:37,317 --> 00:56:44,036
[edward_slingerland]: challenges are that they're trying to solve
we'll be more articulate about why why and
1411
00:56:44,116 --> 00:56:49,463
[edward_slingerland]: when we use alcohol we'll be more
conscious of the ways in which alcohol use
1412
00:56:49,543 --> 00:56:54,948
[edward_slingerland]: can go sideways where it can go
awry and become dangerous and then we'll be
1413
00:56:55,008 --> 00:57:01,288
[edward_slingerland]: in a much better position to make
an intelligent decision about whether or not we're
1414
00:57:01,308 --> 00:57:06,139
[edward_slingerland]: going to use alcohol and so now
when and how and how much so so
1415
00:57:06,199 --> 00:57:13,157
[edward_slingerland]: that's what i'm trying to do is
just articulate why we find intoxicants appealing and
1416
00:57:13,198 --> 00:57:17,731
[edward_slingerland]: we find characters used intoxicant appealing we
need to get more articulate about this
1417
00:57:19,030 --> 00:57:23,096
[zaza]: fantastic i really recommend everybody this book
where
1418
00:57:22,984 --> 00:57:23,085
[edward_slingerland]: oh
1419
00:57:23,176 --> 00:57:25,179
[zaza]: can people get it probably everywhere online
right
1420
00:57:26,344 --> 00:57:28,589
[edward_slingerland]: everywhere online yeah so there's no german
edition
1421
00:57:28,614 --> 00:57:28,714
[zaza]: all
1422
00:57:28,669 --> 00:57:28,769
[edward_slingerland]: yet
1423
00:57:28,815 --> 00:57:28,996
[zaza]: right
1424
00:57:28,829 --> 00:57:29,992
[edward_slingerland]: which is surprising but
1425
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:30,282
[zaza]: oh
1426
00:57:30,433 --> 00:57:33,138
[edward_slingerland]: it's in every almost every other european
language so
1427
00:57:33,750 --> 00:57:36,855
[zaza]: awesome awesome do you have any social
media accounts that you would
1428
00:57:36,834 --> 00:57:37,077
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1429
00:57:36,895 --> 00:57:39,419
[zaza]: like to where can people follow your
work
1430
00:57:40,965 --> 00:57:41,847
[edward_slingerland]: so my website
1431
00:57:41,670 --> 00:57:41,974
[zaza]: oh
1432
00:57:41,947 --> 00:57:46,975
[edward_slingerland]: is just my name edward slater land
all one word dot com and that has
1433
00:57:47,035 --> 00:57:50,481
[edward_slingerland]: everything you could possibly want to know
bout my books
1434
00:57:50,391 --> 00:57:50,813
[zaza]: all right
1435
00:57:50,661 --> 00:57:52,449
[edward_slingerland]: my other books and that cor
1436
00:57:52,643 --> 00:57:56,335
[zaza]: nice the very last very short question
before
1437
00:57:56,304 --> 00:57:57,144
[edward_slingerland]: oh
1438
00:57:56,375 --> 00:57:57,217
[zaza]: i let you go the name
1439
00:57:57,144 --> 00:57:57,406
[edward_slingerland]: oh
1440
00:57:57,257 --> 00:58:00,383
[zaza]: of this podcast is your trash so
i have to ask you something even more
1441
00:58:00,444 --> 00:58:00,885
[zaza]: trashy at
1442
00:58:00,894 --> 00:58:01,734
[edward_slingerland]: yeah
1443
00:58:00,925 --> 00:58:02,267
[zaza]: the end what is the
1444
00:58:02,254 --> 00:58:02,434
[edward_slingerland]: okay
1445
00:58:02,348 --> 00:58:07,157
[zaza]: most gross alcoholic beverage that you ever
had in your life
1446
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:10,141
[edward_slingerland]: that i ever had personally
1447
00:58:11,380 --> 00:58:11,461
[zaza]: up
1448
00:58:13,084 --> 00:58:13,607
[edward_slingerland]: something that's
1449
00:58:13,620 --> 00:58:13,820
[zaza]: yeah
1450
00:58:13,667 --> 00:58:17,375
[edward_slingerland]: some one called a long iowa ice
tea but it seems
1451
00:58:17,250 --> 00:58:18,330
[zaza]: yeah
1452
00:58:17,435 --> 00:58:18,937
[edward_slingerland]: to have been just whatever
1453
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:19,162
[zaza]: yeah
1454
00:58:19,117 --> 00:58:24,707
[edward_slingerland]: they had their licridcabbn all poured together
over ice with some orange juice added that
1455
00:58:24,767 --> 00:58:25,348
[edward_slingerland]: was terrific
1456
00:58:25,260 --> 00:58:25,480
[zaza]: yeah
1457
00:58:26,450 --> 00:58:32,278
[edward_slingerland]: and that drink you just mentioned from
that poet sounds pretty awful too absinth and
1458
00:58:32,231 --> 00:58:32,392
[zaza]: yeah
1459
00:58:32,358 --> 00:58:36,303
[edward_slingerland]: kona fixed together but yeah there are
some pretty gross drinks out
1460
00:58:36,268 --> 00:58:36,469
[zaza]: yeah
1461
00:58:36,343 --> 00:58:36,483
[edward_slingerland]: there
1462
00:58:38,752 --> 00:58:42,762
[zaza]: all right professor linger land thank you
so much for taking the time this was
1463
00:58:42,766 --> 00:58:42,946
[edward_slingerland]: thanks
1464
00:58:42,802 --> 00:58:44,286
[zaza]: fantastic thank you
1465
00:58:44,669 --> 00:58:46,050
[edward_slingerland]: thanks for having it's a lot of
fun