Hands On Training: A Conversation with Jay Wadsworth

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Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of the Sheriff's Mike Clear to Talk with me, Sheriff Corey Honey.
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Those of you who have uh listened to some of our previous podcasts uh probably have picked up on the fact that uh I trained jujitsu.
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It's a passion of mine, and it's rooted in the fact that uh I really think it's important for law enforcement officers to train in combatives so that they're effective on the street.
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And I'm really excited to have uh somebody who is really rising in this field, uh becoming really prominent in terms of training cops in combatives and defensive tactics.
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Uh today I have Jay Wadsworth, who is the founder and director of combatives of effective uh fitness combatives, correct?
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Yep, that's right.
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Also known as EFC, right?
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Yep.
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Yeah.
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EFC for short.
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Effective fitness combatives.
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And uh yeah, we became a company in 2022, although the curriculum has been being built since like 2009.
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Yeah.
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So I think to start off with, and and uh give my listeners a little bit of your background.
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Let them know, you know, how it is that you came to be the founder of a company that specializes in training cops how to defend themselves, but also how to you know effectively manage combative subjects.
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Yeah, so I have 22 years of law enforcement, and early on in my career I I played soccer collegiately, so I didn't really wrestle at a high level.
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I wrestled only until like through middle school.
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And then I went through the DT program in the academy, started uh working as a police officer, and was like, I don't know how to fight.
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And I was always competitive.
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And when I was out of college, like I was playing like football and playing soccer leagues, and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna start doing a huge fan of UFC.
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I'm gonna start doing some MMA jujitsu type stuff.
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Uh Western New York, where I worked, there there was no real jujitsu programs at the time, back then, no black belts uh at that time.
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So we basically would travel, a couple of my friends that wrestled, we'd travel, we'd go to seminars, come back, and we just started having like our own little club and training and basically like taught ourselves jujitsu for the most part.
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Uh we would go under certain guys, like maybe we have to drive, learn stuff, come back and train, but we never really had a true black belt to be underneath like directly.
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So the importance of that was like I was working uh first couple years on, and I had a couple calls where like you know, I had to control a bigger guy that was me.
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Thank God they were intoxicated, and and it worked out in my favor because I'm athletic, but it could have could have been bad.
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And so I was like, I'm gonna concentrate on MMA.
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So then I started training MMA, started fighting uh MMA amateur league, like in the amateur league for for fun.
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Yeah.
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Uh as a hobby, and then uh fought some pro fights, uh, took what I was learning in MMA, training jujitsu and grappling, and then being like, man, this is way better than what I learned in in DT.
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Okay, taking pressure point control tactics was basically what our academy was teaching.
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Right.
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It's all pain compliance stuff, right?
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Correct.
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So then I was like, how do I integrate this in?
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So, you know, 2004 or 5 when I'm fighting and training, I started doing like uh classes at the gym and just training, like, hey, well, how could we arrest and control people differently and finding like how much easier it was just to arrest people when I was training?
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And so then we just started developing a curriculum, and by 2009, uh our sheriff or I'm sorry, our chief retired.
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Okay.
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And uh may have been even earlier than 2009, maybe it was like 2008, 2008 or nine, the the sheriff the chief retired, and we got a new chief in that was like former lieutenant of the SWAT team, and then ended up becoming the chief, wrestler, SWAT background, military background, and he was like, I don't care what the state's doing, we're revamping our training program and come to me with the the program.
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Yeah.
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So that was my first curriculum build.
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Okay.
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And then after that, it we just kept making it better and getting a bunch of the guys on and changing the culture at the PD, uh, taking down silos, bringing range and DT together and related-based training.
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And the state was kind of like looking to revamp their DT program, and everywhere they went, they were like, You gotta look up this guy.
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So they got a hold of the academy director, he put me in contact with him, they contracted me out, and so I built a team of guys from the state uh that were at different academies that were training some sort of MMA or jujitsu, and we revamped the whole state program.
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So New York State's DTI program is basically what EFC is.
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Got it.
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So Yeah.
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So uh it's interesting.
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So your your law enforcement career has spanned 20 uh 22 years.
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22 years and uh held assignments, uh obviously patrol.
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Uh what were what were the some of the assignments?
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I I would say the majority of my assignment was in some portion of patrol.
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Okay.
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I was a super proactive patrol officer.
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And I I would say like I spent 14 years on SWAT team.
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Okay.
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And then uh the last two years was on an undercover drug gun violence unit.
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Right.
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So that was interesting because it's a little bit different.
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But I always had uh the passion to want to get into it and and hit the hard crime and and whatnot.
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So we were proactive all the time, and I would say I learned even I mean SWAT, you learn a lot because you learn really good tactics, you learn how to shoot better, you learn guns, CQB, all that kind of stuff.
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But in a patrol setting, when you're like going and getting it and getting into it, you actually learn more of what you need to integrate into tactics than you do on a SWAT team.
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On a SWAT team, I have you know, somewhere between probably eight and twenty-four other guys with me at some point, and the resources are crazy, right?
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Versus patrol, like yeah, I worked in the city, so your backup's only a minute away, maybe sometimes you're doubled up, but like again, you're doing a lot of solo and team tactics, and then the importance of the team tactics and integration with people coming in, and what aspect of the arrest are you in when someone comes?
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What do we do?
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So it was like solo and team tactics, and we're like, hey, we were hard on ourselves.
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Yeah.
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Hey, we got this guy, we took him down, we did this, but this could have gone bad.
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What can we do differently?
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And I think we're our curriculum is so good now because we're so hard on each other of like, hey, this worked, but if it was opposed to a weapon or opposed to another adversary that was there, would it have worked or would have been the best position?
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And so we were never okay with, hey, this is good.
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Yeah.
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Like if it's opposed by a weapon or it fails, where are we at?
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And that's how we look at what things when we build curriculum.
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Yeah.
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Well, I think it's important too, because you know, you talk about SWAT.
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Generally speaking with SWAT, SWAT, not only do you have superior numbers, you have a lot of resources, equipment, and you generally know what you're gonna be dealing with, right?
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You've had opportunity to do some intel, figure that whole thing out.
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Patrol, it's not like that.
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You don't know what you're gonna have.
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You you you roll out that day, you're handling whatever calls are coming your way, you don't know what the day is gonna bring you, right?
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Yeah.
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In SWAT, almost everything's briefed.
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Exactly.
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Uh even like a hostage rescue is briefed.
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Yeah.
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I've had the ability to be on a hostage rescue in a patrol setting and a hostage rescue in a SWAT setting.
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Yeah.
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The SWAT setting is it's briefed, you've been there for a while, you're getting ready to go.
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Active shooter now is almost solely a patrol response.
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Correct.
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SWAT comes in after and does the clearing and everything else.
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But in SWAT, you have multiple people.
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You have multiple trainings with those guys a month.
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Your probably standard for physical fitness is higher.
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Yep.
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And your shooting is probably higher standards, and you're never alone.
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Yeah.
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Where in patrol, the bread and butter of what your department is, no matter what department you have, the patrol function is your is your bread and butter, and probably sometimes the least trained.
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Yeah.
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And has the less the least resources on hand right away.
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Yeah.
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And what I tell people like now is like if you and I are responding, call comes out and we're going to a home invasion, we're already processing.
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We're on a home invasion, that we're not giving opportunity and vulnerability, we're gonna be getting out, rolling up, making sure we have cover, those types of things.
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These body cam videos and incidents that go bad are low-level beginning calls that spontaneously go up the force levels fast.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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And then we have to process right away.
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So the problem is we're not training with enough resistance, we're not training continuously enough in good curriculum, and then we're not putting enough pressure on our on our students so that they have the ability to process and then perform.
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Yeah.
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And so, like when we beat built EFC, and we were doing this at the the city department, we're we're doing this uh for the DT side of the state, and the state has its own reality-based training program.
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Our reality-based training program varies a bit from the state because the equipment the state had as far as like helmets and stuff, everything had to be at distance because the helmets for like UTMs and munition, they slide, you can't punch them, you can't fight them, you can't grapple in them.
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So uh they're good for working the distance situations.
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Well, we uh found uh the equipment that we can buy and purchase that we can now fight in these helmets and we can be close quarters and fight.
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So now we have the ability to be very good from zero to seven feet in training.
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We can use a little bit of resistance, and then when we get to level two, force on force, we can actually put our students in these zero to seven foot positions where they are now having to process fast and then perform.
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Yeah.
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So we call it performance under pressure.
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Okay.
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So I'm gonna I'm gonna uh you you the vast majority of your experience, obviously uh New York, correct?
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East Coast, although you've trained all over the country, correct?
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Sure.
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My experience is California.
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Okay.
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Um I'm gonna make some statements to see if you agree with me.
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Okay.
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First off, there is an expectation of uh the people we serve, no matter where it's at, the West Coast, the East Coast, in the middle of America, that cops uh have the ability to fight if necessary and control people with perfect outcomes.
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Aaron Ross Powell Sure.
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Trevor Burrus, Jr.
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Right.
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That's the expectation.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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So society thinks that we are trained robots.
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They think we're tier one operators, SWAT operators, and MMA fighters.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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It's probably not furthest from the truth.
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Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It is not the truth.
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Trevor Burrus, Jr.: The broken police model right now in the U.S.
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is you go to an academy for, say, somewhere between eight and twelve months, maybe eighteen months at most, depending on which state you're in and where you're at.
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Right.
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And you're probably getting forty to eighty hours of DT, forty to eighty hours of range training.
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Yeah.
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And then everything else is classroom, maybe some vehicle stuff, and then you're getting thrown out on the street.
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And then, like say here in California, you're only mandated four hours of hands-on training every two years.
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Right.
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Let's pause on that, because I want I want my listener to understand that.
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And uh again, there's a lot of reasons for that, but that's this is a failure of the law enforcement profession.
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And it and it's not just California.
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I think it's it's everywhere.
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Trevor Burrus, Jr.
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It's everywhere.
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And you know, you talk about, you know, when I went to the academy many years ago, uh, same kind of thing.
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There were, you know, uh wrist locks, wrist control, pressure points, things like that.
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Um then you know they taught you to use the baton and you know, pepper spray and things of those natures.
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But I remember um I remember early on uh when I was at patrol deputy, a sergeant telling me, uh, one, uh I don't want you to go hands-on with somebody.
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Uh we've give you these weapons, if you will, then you should use them.
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And the other thing he said is, you know, uh fight should never go to the ground.
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But my experience was fights always went to the ground, and no matter what, I had to put my hands on people, right?
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But we fail to teach cops how to deal with those kinds of situations.
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Correct.
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So like just backstepping quick, society, like you stated, expects us to be perfect.
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Yeah.
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Well, you and I both know, and society should know, that there's no perfection in human performance.
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That's that there's no perfection.
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There's always we have to be really good, but there's no perfection.
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Yeah.
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They want transparency.
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The transparency is is that most of the cops coming to your house or coming to save you are an average person that qualifies at 70% on their gun once a year and probably has no DT training.
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Yeah.
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That's a cop coming to save you.
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Yeah.
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Because there's no mandated continuous training.
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Yeah.
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Anything you do four hours every two years, you're still gonna suck at.
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You use a uh a great analogy on and you know I I should tell people that you're actually here because you're putting on a class.
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A week-long class for uh my defensive tax instructors along with other uh defensive tax instructors.
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I'm in the class, and one of the things that you uh I thought uh the analogy that you used, I thought was really a proposal is the weightlifting.
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Yeah.
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If you if you told somebody to go out and lift weights for four hours every two years, uh how likely would they be to increase their strength and become fit?
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Yeah, you're one, you're getting older.
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Yeah.
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So if I lifted weights four hours this week, and then I don't need to lift weights till two years from now, I'm gonna be worse.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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So continuous training has to be there.
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That's a broken police model.
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We don't train continuously.
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Now, why don't we train continuously?
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One, uh, there's this bad culture that is, oh, it's too dangerous to train.
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People are gonna get hurt.
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Well, why are the cops gonna get hurt?
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Because their body's not conditioned to training.
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Absolutely.
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They're not physically fit.
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Yep.
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Most places, there's no mandatory PT every year.
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You get PT tests to get in the academy, you take PT tests during the academy, you take one to get out, and then there's no mandatory PT the rest of your career.
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Yeah.
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So now you're working odd hours, overtimes, working graveyard, getting up for court, you're not sleeping properly, you're gaining weight, people aren't working out, and now we have out-of-shape people, and there's no standard to keep them in shape.
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There's no PT test to be like, hey, and we need PT tests, right?
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But I think the PT tests also need to be like job specific.
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Sure.
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The Cooper standards is commonly used.
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Run a mile and a half, push-ups and sit-ups.
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Realistically, in police work, when's the last time you ran a mile and a half?
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You haven't.
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No.
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I'm gonna drive a mile and a half.
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Yeah.
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You're chasing a person.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So maybe it's 400 yards to 800 yards at most.
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Yeah.
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Okay, you're fighting with a person, probably 90 seconds.
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So can we develop a test the way we're doing a sprint, uh, we're doing some pummeling and grappling, uh, whatever it's gonna be.
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We have to have job specific stuff.
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Yeah.
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Uh, even the army has kind of changed from like using certain standards to go into a job specific.
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The other thing with the Coopers that's fail is is a fail in my eyes, is it's age and gender specific.
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So say I'm a 22-year-old male, I have to run the mile and a half and say 11 minutes, but I'm a 40-year-old female and I have 19 minutes to run it, but we're doing the same job.
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How does that make sense to anybody?
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It doesn't make sense.
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So we have to find more job-specific stuff.
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I mean, we need to make fitness is the foundation of everything.
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Yeah, we need to make fitness a standard that needs to be mandatory.
00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:27.679
We need to test every year, maybe every two years.
00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:29.600
We have to have continuous training.
00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:35.200
And and listen, I love combatives, I love DT, but we need continuous training and not just hands-on stuff.
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:40.080
We need continuous training in range, yeah, vehicle tactics, and all types of training.
00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:45.120
Yeah, as a patrolman, you are doing a master of a lot of things.
00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:45.759
Sure.
00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:54.639
One of the things that I've been looking at is I think in 2025, I Googled and tried to find like hostage rescue situations for patrol.
00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:54.879
Okay.
00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:56.960
And I found like nine to ten.
00:15:57.279 --> 00:16:00.399
That means there's probably 14 or 15 and some I couldn't find.
00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:01.120
Yeah.
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:05.279
How many departments are doing hostage rescue training for their patrol?
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:07.440
Very, very little, if any.
00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:07.919
Okay.
00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:11.440
Maybe there are a couple, but because what do we think hostage rescue is?
00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:12.399
A SWAT problem.
00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:13.519
It's a SWAT problem.
00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:13.840
Yeah.
00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:24.480
And it is as long as there's not immediate threats and the hostage is going to be okay, and we can wait for SWAT to respond, which could be anywhere from 15 to an hour, depending on where you live and what county or city you work in.
00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:25.440
And that's a fast response.
00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:26.000
I would say that's a good thing.
00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:27.120
It's a fast response, right?
00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:41.440
So you have to teach your officers where if it's I gotta go now, and there's been three or four just that came out recently, and it's hey, he is stabbing us, he's killing us, you can't wait for swap.
00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:42.240
You gotta go.
00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:47.120
Hostage rescue for patrol now is to me the newest active shooter.
00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:52.080
So if we go all the way back to Columbine, the response there is what did the officers do?
00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:52.559
Waited.
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:54.399
Set a perimeter weight called swap.
00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:54.960
Yep.
00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:58.559
Soon as that occurred, we were like, hey, we have to look at this differently.
00:16:58.639 --> 00:16:59.519
Hey, lives are dying.
00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:00.399
What's a priority life?
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.039
Okay, but officers, this is now a patrol function.
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:07.599
Yeah, we've done a really good job now at training our officers in active shooter and response.
00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:08.319
Okay.
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:13.759
I think the next thing is now we have to look at this active, we have to look at training our officers in hostage rescue.
00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:16.000
We have to look at training patrol and hostage rescue.
00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:18.079
So it's like it's not just combatives.
00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:18.559
Sure.
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:35.839
But like when we talk and I do stats and I talk in day one for use of force and how combatives has its effect, people think that we are shooting people all the time, that we are tasing people all the time, we're hitting people with our baton all the time, and it's not it's not true at all.
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:36.240
Yeah.
00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:43.839
So I'll use like New York City quarterly stats, and I'm just gonna round them off in my head because I don't have them sitting right in front of me.
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:51.440
But every class I ask people in the police setting, raise your hand if you've pepper sprayed more than five people in your career.
00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:55.359
And then let's say the average class is 30, maybe one or two.
00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:58.559
Have you tased more than five people in your career?
00:17:58.720 --> 00:17:59.920
Maybe one or two.
00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:03.200
Have you hit more than five people with your baton?
00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:05.440
I get hardly any of that anymore.
00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:12.480
That's kind of I think batons semi-getting phased out uh of the patrol setting, and it's it's more of a rider type tool, okay?
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.000
Riot control, stuff like that.
00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:15.599
But again, less than five.
00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:15.839
Yeah.
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:18.160
Maybe one person, two people here or there.
00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:20.160
Have you shot more than five people?
00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:21.440
Nobody raises their hands.
00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:21.599
Right.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:23.039
Cops aren't shooting people all the time.
00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:23.440
Right.
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:23.839
Okay.
00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:26.880
Now I'll say raise your hand.
00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:33.119
If you've had to fight hands-on and physically take someone into custody that was resisting, everybody raises their hand.
00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:33.759
They do.
00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:36.559
So now let's look at like the quarterly stats from New York City.
00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:39.599
If we look at 2025, because those are the ones that are out.
00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:44.559
Uh handgun is somewhere between eight and like 12 each quarter.
00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:44.799
Yeah.
00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:46.799
So let's say quarter one is like eight.
00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:49.519
They they had to shoot at eight people.
00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.440
Taser is always 300 to 400.
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:57.759
Okay, now we're we're looking at a department that has 33,000 cops.
00:18:58.160 --> 00:18:58.400
Okay.
00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:01.359
So we can take that percentage for smaller departments.
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:03.119
Baton, very low.
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:04.640
OC, very low.
00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:09.279
Okay, again, we're we're talking like less than 50 for each one of those.
00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:12.400
Hands-on, over 2,000.
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:12.960
Right.
00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:14.319
That's for a quarter.
00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:14.720
Yeah.
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:19.279
So it's not close percentage-wise of what we do in police work and what do we train them the least in.
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:24.880
Really good hands-on tactics and team tactics are a form of deescalation.
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:35.519
If my verbal de-escalation skills fail with that person, and listen, verbal de-escalation takes two parties, the cop and the suspect.
00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:35.839
Yeah.
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:39.680
And if one of them isn't good at it or doesn't want to do it, it's not happening.
00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:40.000
Yeah.
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:41.599
So say it fails.
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:46.000
The next level is going to be hands-on control stuff.
00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:55.759
If you and I are going to go hands-on with a guy and we know to go high, low, bundle the legs, low mount, inside control, and we take him down, control him, and cuff him right away.
00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:58.960
We escalated that from going up to intermediate weapons.
00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:06.160
We escal de-escalated that from going up to possibly into a shooting if he's trying to get to our gun or his own weapon or those types of things.
00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:13.519
So we have to understand that de-escalation is in all levels of force, not just verbal, which is what most most of society thinks.
00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:14.720
We have to get away from that.
00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:16.640
De-escalation is all levels of force.
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:18.079
My team tactics are good.
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:20.559
That's a form of de-escalation at that level of force.
00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:33.200
If a guy has a knife and we're 25 feet away and I present a gun and get behind cover and he realizes like he's not going to get to me before I he I can shoot him, and he drops a knife, I've de-escalated that situation at a high level of force.
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:33.920
Okay.
00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:49.200
I think media-wise, and this is my new uh rant, is departments now are being transparent on two things and two things only.
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:52.480
We're being transparent when we shoot somebody.
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:54.720
I'm I'm okay with being transparent.
00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:56.880
We live in a glass house, there's cameras everywhere.
00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:58.640
You're gonna be on camera doing something.
00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:01.119
Most of the time, our own camera and somebody else's.
00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:01.599
Okay.
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:06.319
So we show all of our OAS's probably within a week of that guy getting shot.
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:09.039
We put it out and we explain, hey, this is what happened.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:12.880
Or we have an overuse of force and we put that out.
00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:15.440
So now what are we training society on what we did?
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:33.039
An overuse of force, which is like if you look at FBI stats from like 07 to 17, they do this like uh how many police contacts with the public there were versus how many overuse of forces were reported, and it was like 0.00037% that was even force is like used.
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:33.519
Yeah.
00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:34.079
Okay.
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:42.480
So now we look and we're like, okay, an overuse of force were transparent, and OISs were transparent.
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:44.400
So what is society seeing us do?
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:47.599
They think people in overuse force.
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:48.240
Yeah, exactly.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:48.640
Okay.
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:48.960
Yeah.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:54.480
In reality, the number one use of force level is cooperative cuffing.
00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:55.039
Correct.
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:57.039
I've arrested a lot of people in my career.
00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:57.519
Yeah.
00:21:57.759 --> 00:21:59.599
Most of the people I arrested was cooperative.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:00.240
Yeah.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:03.359
The next most I've arrested is actively resisting.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:05.039
They're not being combative towards me.
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:06.160
They're pulling away.
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:09.119
They're trying to tuck their arms, just trying not to get arrested.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:09.440
Yeah.
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:09.920
Okay.
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:13.680
Those should be handled in a hands-on situation.
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:17.279
Then it's actively combative and then deadly physical force.
00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:17.680
Yeah.
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:24.640
So why aren't we showing society at least some transparency on, hey, look, we arrested a cooperative person.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:30.400
If you're in society and are getting arrested, you're cooperative, and then you fight it your day in court.
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:31.680
That's what the law is set up to do.
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:32.480
That's the system.
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:32.880
Right.
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:39.119
If you're fighting, most of the time when we fight, it's hands-on problems.
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:40.400
Why aren't we training that?
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:42.640
But look, we train in hands-on.
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:44.000
We have good team tactics.
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:44.720
High low.
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:45.680
We took this guy down.
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:46.400
High low.
00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:47.519
We got him into custody.
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:48.319
He's safe.
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:50.160
We're safe because we train.
00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:50.720
Yeah.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:56.400
Now we're teaching society that we do more than just shoot people and have an overuse of force.
00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:56.720
Yeah.
00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:01.119
The problem is departments media is like, we can't post body camera videos.
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:04.480
But we'll post a shooting and we'll post the overuse of force.
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:06.480
Now society just thinks that what we're doing.
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:06.720
Yeah.
00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:11.200
So we need to teach society what we actually are doing all the time.
00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:14.160
And that the biggest form of that right now is social media.
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:14.559
Yeah.
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:20.000
Departments should be putting out very good body cam video in all levels of force, of good tactics.
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:20.400
Why?
00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:21.920
Because we do that way more than anything else.
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:22.559
We do.
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:22.960
We do.
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:25.680
So there's a couple of things I want to unpack there, because there are a lot there.
00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:28.799
And I want to get into de-escalation in a minute, because I think I think we need to do that.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:30.319
But I want to go back to this.
00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:45.359
The fact is historically the law enforcement profession across the United States hasn't trained defensive tactics or combatives effectively or sufficiently.
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:47.680
We know that that's a perishable skill.
00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:55.519
You can't rely upon uh four hours of training every two years and expect somebody to be competent, even a level of you can't even get a level of competency, right?
00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:56.000
Correct.
00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:16.880
And uh there's this other uh aspect of it that I think is important, and and you you've uh you said it uh yesterday, and it's something I've thought about a lot, which is uh an ineffective application of force or an ineffective use of force often gives the appearance of excessive force, right?
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:17.440
Aaron Ross Powell Yep.
00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:24.160
So I walked into the Westchester Academy and I uh we're talking 2014, 2015.
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:24.799
Yeah.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:31.519
Uh to teach a pilot type course of what we're doing for the state.
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:32.319
Yeah.
00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:38.240
And on the wall was a sign that said ineffective force gives the appearance of excessive.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:38.559
Okay.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:39.839
So I didn't make that up.
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:40.160
Okay.
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:41.039
But I I took it.
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:41.839
Yeah, for sure.
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:42.720
Because it's true.
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:44.640
I watch use of force.
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:46.960
I get tons of use of force videos sent to me.
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:51.359
People asking my opinion on was this excessive, was this good, what can they do better?
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:52.160
Yeah.
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:58.160
Almost all of the ones that look bad are not excessive.
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:04.160
It's ineffective force that gives the appearance of being excessive.
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:12.240
And what I mean by that for society in the civilian terms is the guy's on the ground and he's still fighting and he's still flailing.
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:18.559
Maybe he's sent me trying to fight and I'm hitting him, but he doesn't feel pain, maybe he's high, whatever the case may be.
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:21.599
And I just keep hitting him because I don't know where else to go.
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:22.000
Yeah.
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:22.960
That looks terrible.
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:26.880
But if I can punch him because he's still fighting, I'm still in the level of force to punch him.
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:29.599
Maybe I tase him six times.
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:30.160
Okay.
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:32.000
But he's still fighting.
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:32.559
Right.
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:35.599
Maybe I hit him with the baton like 10 or 11 times.
00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:39.119
If he's still in the level of force for me to hit him with the baton, it's not excessive.
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:39.359
Yeah.
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:42.400
Each baton strike has to meet that level of force.
00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.599
Just like every time I deploy taser, it has to meet that level of force.
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:50.240
It's not like on one incident, okay, you have a knife, I tase you, you drop the knife, put your hands up.
00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:51.359
Well, I can't tase you again.
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:54.160
Now you've you've de-escalated or we've de-escalated the situation.
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:55.759
It's now starting to come down.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:59.279
But if you're still holding it, I'm still tasing you, we're still in the level of force.
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:08.559
But if I'm not getting proper NMI with the taser, I'm not getting proper control tactics, or I'm not getting any change of behavior from the strikes, what is my next option?
00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:19.519
If my if my taser, my pepper spray, my baton, my intermediate weapons are failing, but I don't feel like I'm in the level of shooting this guy yet.
00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:20.880
What are my options?
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:21.519
Right.
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:25.519
And if we haven't trained you to deal with that person by going hands-on, correct.
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:25.839
Right?
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:26.160
Yeah.
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:28.559
Whereas this over-reliance upon tools, right?
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:28.880
Yes.
00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:41.599
And I you know, in my career, I, you know, I uh I remember early on uh uh there was a transition from from um tear gas to pepper spray, and what they said was pepper spray is gonna solve all your problems.
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:48.240
People are gonna be uh just uh once they're hit with a pepper spray, they'll be incapacitated.
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:51.920
Well, we found pretty quickly that yeah, there are some people it doesn't work on.
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:58.480
And then um I don't know if you remember this, but the PR-24 side handle baton, that was gonna solve all of our problems, right?
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:01.279
All you have to do is hit a guy once and he's gonna go down, right?
00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:03.200
As it turns out that's not the case at all.
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:07.680
Trevor Burrus, and then taser came along, and taser was gonna solve all of our problems, right?
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:09.839
But there's there's challenges with that as well.
00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:13.759
And oftentimes I see uh taser deployments that are ineffective on people as well.
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:14.160
Sure.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.519
At the end of the day, you still have to put your hands on somebody and control them.
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:25.839
Even if I use an intermediate weapon, a taser, a baton, or a pepper spray, those intermediate weapons aren't putting cuffs on guys.
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:26.880
Exactly.
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:32.480
And if they don't want to be compliant even after those, I still have to put my hands on that person to get them into custody.
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:32.799
Yeah.
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:33.119
Right?
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:37.519
Cooperative handcuffing, uncooperative handcuffing, team cuffing, team control.
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:46.880
You know, so everything comes down to if we want to take this guy into custody, at some point our hands are going on him, even at gunpoint.
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:50.720
You and I are, you know, cover, cover and control.
00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:52.480
So I'm gonna cover, you're gonna control him.
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:52.720
Right.
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:54.079
You're still going hands-on.
00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:54.720
Yes.
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:56.319
Even at gunpoint, right?
00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:58.079
I still have to go hands-on.
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:01.599
Even if we shoot that guy, we still have to go hands-on.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:02.640
Absolutely right.
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:04.640
But we don't train hands-on.
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:06.799
We don't train it enough.
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:10.559
No, we don't train it effectively, and we don't train it continuously.
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:10.799
Yeah.
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:11.920
And that's the overall problem.
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:12.960
Here's the problem.
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:19.680
Most administrations say, well, it's too dangerous because our officers are going to get hurt and it's going to cost us too money.
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:20.640
Or too much money.
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:20.960
Yeah.
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:28.079
Okay, so go tell society that you're worried about this officer getting injured training, but that's the officer coming to save your family.
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:28.640
Correct.
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:28.960
Right.
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:35.519
I look at officers sometimes and I'll look at right at them and I'll say, Would you want you going to save your family if you were out of town?
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:39.759
That's a that's a hard look in the mirror, isn't it?
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:39.920
Yeah.
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:40.720
Look in the mirror.
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:41.440
You're out of town.
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:41.680
Yeah.
00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:43.039
There's a home invasion in your house.
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:44.400
You want you to be the first one there.
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:44.880
Yeah.
00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:45.279
Yeah.
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:47.039
You shoot a 70 on paper.
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:47.440
Yeah.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:47.839
Right.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:48.240
Right.
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:48.640
Right.
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:48.880
Right.
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:50.960
You can't run a sprint to the door.
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:51.440
Yeah.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:53.039
You don't know how to fight that guy.
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:53.839
Yeah.
00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:58.079
And not as we know in police work, very little problems are actually gun problems.
00:28:58.480 --> 00:28:58.880
Absolutely.
00:28:58.960 --> 00:28:59.440
The very few.
00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:00.240
Very few.
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:00.640
Very few.
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:02.400
Now, when they are, we got to be really good there.
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:02.799
Yeah.
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:03.039
Yeah.
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:03.440
Okay.
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:08.960
We got to be really good at transitioning from hands to taser, taser to hands, gun to taser, gun to hand.
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:10.720
We have to be good at transitioning all these things.
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:11.039
Yeah.
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:11.519
Right?
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:13.440
Because we go up and down in the use of force.
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:14.000
Yeah.
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:17.039
But escalate up, de-escalate down.
00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:18.880
We have to go back and forth in there.
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:22.480
But in the end, your hands-on is happening at some point.
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:22.720
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:23.359
Absolutely.
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.240
And you you you we I wanted to come back to de-escalation.
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:27.920
You just used the word again.
00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:46.480
Um it's an interesting thing because um I believe the profession of law enforcement uh lost control of the narrative and failed to properly instruct the members of our community about what de-escalation really is.
00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:47.920
And you talked about that a moment ago.
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:48.640
Yeah.
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:49.119
Yeah.
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:49.920
2020.
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:51.039
2020, exactly.
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:52.160
Big downfall, right?
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:53.680
Big political narrative push.
00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:54.000
Yeah.
00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:55.599
Whether you're on one side or the other, it doesn't really matter.
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:56.000
It doesn't.
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:57.599
The answer is usually somewhere in the middle.
00:29:57.759 --> 00:29:58.000
Yeah.
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:03.440
So understanding the push then was defund the police and de-escalation training.
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:04.400
Correct.
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:11.119
I can't find data on one city that defunded the police in 2020 that hasn't spent more money now to fund the police.
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:11.599
Sure.
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:13.759
Because that was the biggest fraud that we had.
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:15.920
Defunding the police is not the answer here.
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:20.720
The silent majority of the communities in the United States support police.
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:20.960
Yeah.
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:22.400
Because they don't want lawlessness.
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:27.359
They want their kids and themselves to grow up and have safety and be safe, right?
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:33.519
We know stateside the number one thing between violence and people are the police department.
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:33.920
Yeah.
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:35.839
So that experiment failed.
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:36.400
That was easy.
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:37.440
We knew that was going to occur.
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:43.440
People behind the scenes, people in the in the community, uh the law enforcement community, we knew defunding the police was going to fail.
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:44.160
Yeah.
00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:48.319
While that was occurring, they are funding de-escalation training.
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:51.680
But they fund de-escalation training in verbal only.
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:52.480
Correct.
00:30:52.799 --> 00:31:09.119
And that's where we in law enforcement, uh, I think we were so back on our heels in 2020 trying to understand what was going on and what the change environment was and didn't fully appreciate the fact that what people were hearing was, oh, well, we're just going to teach cops to talk everybody into doing what we want them to do.
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:09.440
Yeah.
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:09.839
Right?
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:14.480
But that doesn't, that doesn't work, especially when you got somebody who maybe suffered from a mental health issue.
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:19.839
They are on drugs, or they are just so angry that they're not willing to listen to you, right?
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:20.079
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:21.920
Vulcal de-escalation fails there.
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:22.400
It does.
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:31.920
Now it does that don't and you you you talked about this because de-escalation is integral to every use of force.
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:41.039
And you have to be able to talk to people even while you're in the middle of utilizing some level of force with them, right?
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:41.920
We just did that today.
00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:42.640
We just did that today.
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:50.079
We're narrating their their actions to our verbal commands to narrate the story on our body camp.
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:54.240
We are using our verbal commands to show what their actions are and what we want them to do.
00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:54.480
Right.
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:57.519
Because our end-all thing is we want to get a behavior change.
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:03.920
If we could take everyone into custody and not have to fight them, if everybody is cooperative, we'd have no use overuse of force.
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:07.759
And if we did, it'd be super easy to get those guys out of there.
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:08.400
Yeah, for sure.
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:08.720
For sure.
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:13.599
But even if I'm fighting with a guy, I still have to be de-escalating verbally.
00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:18.319
I still have to be monitoring this person, and I still have to be fighting hands-on with this person.
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:18.799
Exactly.
00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:25.680
Maybe I'm fighting that person at distance with a taser, but I'm still using verbal commands and I'm still working through the processes.
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:26.000
Yeah.
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:28.400
So de-escalation is all force levels.
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:31.119
We can't just count on verbal because we know that fails too much.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:31.519
Correct.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:33.440
It's like the other experience.
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:49.200
And listen, I get the idea of it, but when you've worked uh in the police environment, if you're going to send mental health workers unarmed to some of these mental health crises with weapons, we're going to see tragies.
00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:51.519
And unfortunately, we just already just saw one a couple weeks ago.
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:52.480
We saw another one.
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:54.480
Like they're secondary responders.
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:55.920
They're not a first responder.
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:59.200
If we make the scene safe and get them up there, fine.
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:05.519
But they shouldn't, I mean, we can, but you're you're going to get, unfortunately, mental health workers killed that way.
00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:06.000
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah.
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:09.359
And you know, we have a co-response model here in Butte County, which I'm really supportive of.
00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:18.640
But even talking with our director of behavioral health, I don't believe he would ever be in favor of sending his mental health clinicians in first.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:20.400
He won't they want to have us there.
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:22.319
It's like EMS.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:22.559
Yeah.
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:23.759
Yeah.
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:27.599
Where does the fire department and EMS stand by in a violent encounter?
00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:28.079
Yeah.
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:28.559
Exactly.
00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:29.440
They stage.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:29.839
They wait.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:30.400
They stage.
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:30.720
Exactly.
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:31.039
Why?
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:34.240
Because we need to make this scene safe and then they can come up.
00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:42.960
Now, maybe if we have it as a barricade, we have distance, we have stuff set up, and we can get the mental health person up there, of course, that that's another resource that we can use.
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:44.480
And we should use it if those are available.
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:44.799
Yeah.
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:45.200
Right?
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:47.119
Because that's a form of de-escalation, possibly.
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:47.759
Yeah.
00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:55.920
And I just think that society doesn't understand enough about how violent people can be and how fast violence occurs.
00:33:56.240 --> 00:33:56.559
Absolutely.
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:59.759
And unfortunately, we'll never curb all violence.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:00.240
No.
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:02.240
There's always going to be violence.
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:05.039
We just have to have good people that are trained to handle violence.
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:05.680
Agreed.
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:12.000
And and I I'll tell you, in my career, uh it spans almost uh I think 34 years now, right?
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:22.719
Um I have seen where uh there's been a change in the landscape, a change in the kinds of people that we deal with, the kinds of calls we deal with.
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:29.039
When I first started, it was it was fairly rare that you would deal with somebody suffering from a significant mental health issue.
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:34.159
Uh the people who are using drugs didn't act out as er erratically or as violently.
00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:37.440
And over the course of time, that's a very common occurrence now.
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:46.639
We're dealing with a different kind of individual now and have to have skill sets that are capable of uh you know meeting the evolving landscape that we're in, right?
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:49.199
Yeah, and that's uh I call these trends.
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:49.679
Yeah.
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:55.679
So like uh in what I do building curriculum, you have to understand to stay relevant, you gotta keep up with the trends.
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:56.079
Sure.
00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:57.840
Equipment changes, yeah.
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:02.480
Use of force laws change, and we have to understand that we got to keep up with it.
00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:03.519
You just said it.
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:05.519
What people are doing changes sometimes.
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:06.400
Absolutely.
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:11.599
So we have to be watching video, we have to be breaking it down, getting feedback from the guys out on the road.
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:12.639
Hey, what are you dealing with?
00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:13.360
What are they doing?
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:14.800
Is what we're doing still working?
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:16.079
Do we got to tweak it?
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:17.199
All those types of things.
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:18.239
Yeah, it's fortunate now.
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:20.960
We have body cam videos, we can see all of it and change.
00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:23.440
The newest trend is patrol hostage rescue.
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:24.719
We're seeing that all the time.
00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:32.480
We've been doing that realistically, because the one that I had was like in 2011 or 12, and we just handled our business.
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:33.760
We didn't even think about it.
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:34.320
Right, right.
00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:36.960
Okay, we just went in, we handled the business, and then we left.
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:37.360
Yeah.
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:37.760
Right?
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:41.280
Or or people came and we we we took care of the the issue.
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:47.119
But now we're seeing this happen more and more and more and more.
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:51.119
It's time we start putting training towards that because that's the newest trend of what people are behaving.
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:51.519
Yeah.
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:56.480
The mental health issue, too, uh, can come because we have different drugs coming into the street.
00:35:56.639 --> 00:35:57.280
Your meth.
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:03.280
You didn't have meth when in 2020 when I started the academy, and we didn't even talk about meth.
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:07.760
Yeah, meth has been a big here in Butte County for a long, long time, but the formulation is different.
00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:08.559
It's different, yeah.
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:10.639
Fentanyl we didn't talk about in the academy.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:14.880
Meth for us was like 2005-2006, we started seeing it.
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:24.400
And what's crazy is like in the city of Jamestown, which is south of Buffalo, we have probably more meth than Buffalo and Rochester, whose cities are much bigger than us.
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:24.960
Yeah, right.
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:26.079
They just have different drugs.
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:28.719
The meth hasn't made it up there yet, even currently.
00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:29.119
Yeah.
00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:29.440
Right.
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:33.280
I I'm friends with the full-time SWAT guys, and like, yeah, very rarely see these on the details.
00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:35.440
Very rarely are we getting meth on stops.
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:35.760
Okay.
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:40.880
And we're like, if we do a detail or a stop and we don't get like a pound of meth, it's it's a bad stop.
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:41.119
Yeah.
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:44.000
Or a bad like a bad search warrant.
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:46.320
Or not a bad search warrant, but it's just not what we wanted, right?
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:46.960
Right, right, right.
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:51.519
There's way more guns out there now than there was 20 years ago.
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:52.320
Yeah.
00:36:53.440 --> 00:37:00.480
If I did a vehicle stop and I got a gun like once a month or once every two months, I was like, oh, this guy's super proactive.
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:00.639
Yeah.
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:02.719
These guys are getting guns out the street every week now.
00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:03.119
Yeah.
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:04.400
Probably every day.
00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:04.960
Right.
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:06.559
So there's way more guns out there.
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:07.440
These are trends.
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:09.760
We have to stay moving to the trends.
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:12.079
Our curriculum's got to stay moving to these trends.
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:15.039
And that's the problem sometimes is we don't want to change.
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:17.119
The wheels of justice move slowly.
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:18.239
Yeah, right, right, right.
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:20.320
And or the bureaucracy at the state.
00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:21.119
Or the bureaucracy.
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:21.679
Exactly.
00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:22.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:26.000
We just have to realize people want true police reform.
00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:26.480
Yeah.
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:28.559
It is continuous good training.
00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:29.519
Agreed.
00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:44.639
If your department is training continuously firearms, combatives, okay, CQB, vehicle stops, active shooter, hostage rescue, your society is way more safer.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:44.960
Yeah.
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:46.800
Because those guys are used to training.
00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:47.920
They're going and handling it.
00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:51.039
The first time that this comes up, it's not happening when they're there.
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:53.679
I haven't fought a guy in in six months.
00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:55.280
I haven't fought a guy in five years.
00:37:55.519 --> 00:37:56.880
Now I'm going to fight for my life.
00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:58.880
Now I'm panicking because I don't know what to do.
00:37:59.119 --> 00:37:59.440
Boom.
00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:03.679
So that's a thing that uh and it and this ties into the de-escalation piece.
00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:15.280
The ability to de-escalate in the midst of using force is something that um I didn't fully appreciate this until until I started training uh uh MMA and jujitsu.
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:31.599
And that is um if you don't uh train regularly in that kind of chaos, then you can't stay in the front part of your brain where you're uh aware of what's going on and able to communicate, right?
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:39.199
You go to that that that you know deep brain, uh that that fight, flight, uh survival kind of mode.
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:48.239
And what I have come to believe is that you know definitely ineffective force uh looks like excessive force.
00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:57.119
But when you have a true and and that is rooted in you know not ha not being trained and also not being able to uh they're they're not inoculated to the stress of that particular event.
00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:08.159
Where you have a true um uh excessive force situation, I view that as one, the cop is either scared, right?
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:10.000
Or they're pissed off.
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:10.320
Yeah.
00:39:10.639 --> 00:39:10.800
Right?
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:12.559
And they're acting out of emotion.
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:13.199
Correct.
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:20.880
And you have to train yourself to contain and deal with that emotion when you're in the middle of chaos.
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:24.320
And the only way to do that is to train on a regular basis.
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:24.960
Right?
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:25.360
Yeah.
00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:25.599
Yeah.
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:27.760
So stress and fear are real.
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:28.320
Absolutely.
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:30.400
Anger is real, emotion's real.
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:30.880
Exactly.
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:34.400
It's okay to be fearful, but I need to channel my reactions to fearful.
00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:34.800
Yeah.
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:36.079
This is a profession.
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:36.400
Yeah.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:37.519
I shouldn't be angry.
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:37.920
Yeah.
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:38.320
Okay.
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:44.079
I could be stressed, but how do I channel that and have have uh the emotional ability to control myself?
00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:44.800
Yeah.
00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:46.800
You're talking about fear.
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:50.239
So fear and stress is processed in two spots in your brain.
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:56.559
The frontal part is your frontal lobe, the amygdala in the back is a is uh the other one where you actually process fear.
00:39:56.719 --> 00:39:57.280
Yeah.
00:39:57.599 --> 00:39:59.920
The military did a whole bunch of studies.
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:06.320
You can actually train your body, your brain to process faster.
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:12.639
And the way you do that is put yourself in these situations where you don't know what's going on, and then you have to handle it right away.
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:12.960
Okay.
00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:19.360
We already said earlier that most of these events happen spontaneous from low-level calls, so we're not ready for the event.
00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:19.599
Yeah.
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:22.559
You and I are going to home invasion, we're ready.
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:22.960
Yeah.
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:27.280
I'm talking to the transient trespass guy on the floor or whatever, and then he pops up with a knife.
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:27.599
Right.
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:29.119
How fast am I processing that?
00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:30.079
How fast am I moving?
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:31.840
How many times have I done that training?
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:32.559
Right.
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:34.320
Well, most people say no, right?
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:39.440
So, like our level two is all about performance under pressure, and we really we do what we call hooded box drills.
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:43.920
And what that is, is we put a hood over their head, they don't know what the situation is.
00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:49.280
And they're on UTM or simmunition, so it's like your platform of your gun, but it's a training ammunition, it's like a paintball.
00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:50.960
But when you get hit with them, they don't feel good.
00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:51.599
Yeah, you know.
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:51.920
Right?
00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:53.280
So there's gonna be stress and fear.
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:55.440
You just bring them out, and people are stress and fear already.
00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:59.440
Yeah, but now that pops off, and maybe you're just asking me for directions.
00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:00.159
Okay, sir.
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:01.119
Uh, where are you headed?
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:02.079
I give you directions.
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:05.119
Now the next time that hood pops off, maybe you're running at me with a knife.
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:06.480
How fast do I process that?
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:07.760
How fast do I handle that?
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:09.679
How do we coach them to get good at that?
00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:19.360
The more they do of these stress drills under pressure, yeah, performance under pressure, I call it, or PUP, yeah, okay, the better our officers are performing out there in these situations.
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:19.679
Why?
00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:20.000
Absolutely.
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:21.440
Because they've done all these situations.
00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:22.960
There's only really so many.
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:28.480
There's only like 15 or 20 situations I can put a cop in that they got to perform right away in.
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:28.800
Yeah.
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:34.639
Now, can I take those 20 situations or 15 situations and then change the condition as you start crushing those drills?
00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:35.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:42.320
Now, okay, let's make it dark, low light conditions, uh, let's put you in a confined space versus an open space, maybe a second suspect, those types of things.
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:42.719
Yeah.
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:53.679
So I can change those, but I get to the point with some of my guys, uh, or that works, some of my guys, I have trouble finding drills to put them under pressure.
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:53.920
Right.
00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:55.440
I do, but they just crush it.
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:55.599
Yeah.
00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:56.079
Why?
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:58.239
Because they're learning to process fast.
00:41:58.400 --> 00:41:59.599
They're inoculated to that stress.
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:01.119
They're inoculated to the stress.
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:01.519
Exactly.
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:03.760
Okay, they don't they don't panic.
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:04.159
Yeah.
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:05.760
They don't get angry.
00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:07.760
Oh, knife, fear.
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:12.079
Okay, but you relate to your training and the pressure of training.
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:14.320
So you process faster and now I can handle it.
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:14.559
Yeah.
00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:16.639
And that's what we don't do enough of in police work.
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:16.880
Yeah.
00:42:17.199 --> 00:42:18.480
Same with a flat range.
00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:19.039
Okay.
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:24.960
On the on live range training, I can only put pressure on you in two ways.
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:25.440
Yeah.
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:25.840
Okay.
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:29.039
I can put a time and accuracy on you, okay?
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:33.679
Which is going to all already put people like it elevated.
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:34.079
Sure.
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:37.679
Because time you bring out the timer, people start to get nervous.
00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:37.920
Right.
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:38.559
They stress.
00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:38.719
Yeah.
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:40.559
So I bring in stress that way.
00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:42.719
I can also get your heart rate up.
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:44.239
Make you do some exercise.
00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:49.519
So I can put pressure with time and accuracy, and I can put pressure on you with heart rate.
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:52.079
I can't put human pressure in front of you.
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:52.400
Right.
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:53.920
In a live range, you can't do it.
00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:54.159
Yeah.
00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:56.239
Can't have somebody shooting at you for correct.
00:42:56.639 --> 00:43:00.880
But we have access to simulation and we have access to UTM.
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:08.719
If we have four ranges a year, four range trainings a year, a minimum one of those should be on Sims and UTM only.
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:14.000
And just working, moving, working in a 360 environment, putting a threat in front of us.
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:14.400
Yeah.
00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:14.800
Why?
00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:17.280
Because you can't do that on the live range.
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:23.039
And no matter what, there's nothing like having an uncooperative person in front of you and having to handle that pressure.
00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:23.519
Yeah.
00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:23.840
Yeah.
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:25.119
No, that makes good sense.
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:37.840
Yeah, that's where, you know, in terms of and revamping our at the sheriff's office of Butte County, revamping our defensive tactics training program, um, trying to bring more um overlap into our into our various training.
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:40.880
It's all about that stress inoculation, about getting those reps, right?
00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:45.199
The more times you deal with something similar, the more you have to draw upon, right?
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:45.519
Correct.
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:47.440
When that situation situation comes.
00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:59.760
You know, you talked about something earlier, and it's uh a bit of a pet peeve of mine that this whole um notion or idea, and usually uh uh admin is blamed for this thing.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.280
Like, oh, we we we can't do this because people are gonna get hurt.
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:08.239
My philosophy on that is well, they're gonna get hurt if you don't sit if you don't train them, they're gonna get hurt in the field.
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:13.760
I would rather them get trained, and if an injury happens, at least it's in an environment where they're not gonna get killed.
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:14.079
Yes.
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:14.559
Right?
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:15.039
Yes.
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:15.679
Yeah.
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:22.400
And what I have found is um uh the more we train, the fewer injuries we have.
00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:24.639
Of course, because your body's conditioned.
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:25.360
Exactly.
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:36.159
But another interesting thing, the more we train, especially uh in in terms of uh giving people the skills that they need to go hands-on, the less often we have to go hands-on.
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:39.760
Yes, because you're not worried about it.
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:40.559
Exactly.
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:42.480
Here's here's the thing with hard skills.
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:42.719
Yeah.
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:48.480
Whether it's competition shooting or just regular combative shooting a lot and your high skills on sh on the gun, yeah.
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:52.000
You're training jujitsu, you're training wrestling, you're training MMA.
00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:52.639
Yeah.
00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:56.400
I'm now not thinking and worrying about having to go hands-on with you.
00:44:56.719 --> 00:45:03.840
So now I'm allowing my brain to process what you're doing more and pay more attention to other things and be able to talk to you differently.
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:04.159
Yeah.
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:08.320
Because I'm not worried if it goes to a gun, if it goes to hands-on.
00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:12.079
I'm competent there, above competency level and ready to go.
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:12.480
Yeah.
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:12.960
Okay.
00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:14.800
So then I don't need to do that.
00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:15.199
Yeah.
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:18.239
I don't need to overcompensate with like screaming at you.
00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:19.039
Right.
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:20.960
I don't have to work you up.
00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:21.519
Right.
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:21.920
Right.
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:24.000
Sometimes people are small, I gotta be loud.
00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:24.320
Yeah.
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:24.480
Yeah.
00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:34.159
No, you can be loud, but you like for me, like I look at it as I'm as respectful as possible until it's time to not be respectful.
00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:35.920
And that's usually when it's time to fight.
00:45:36.320 --> 00:45:40.719
So the now you've you've launched me into another thing that I've been thinking a lot about lately.
00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:58.159
Um the whole idea is that you know uh trained cops, you know, in terms of if if they're trained in all the disciplines that need to be disciplined, but uh trained in, but also you know, in terms of combatatives and defense taxes, we we what I am finding is that the level of force that they end up having to use is often much less.
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:12.000
There's another area that I'm really trying to work on in internally, and I think this is uh based on a study that I recently read and um some information that I got from attorneys who represent law enforcement.
00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:13.280
The study was interesting.
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:29.679
Um they took two groups of people and uh they showed they ended up uh uh having a scenario where law enforcement officers um had to use a level of force to take a person into custody.
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:39.760
And um in one scenario, the cops were cussing at the people telling them, you know, you know, get on the f ⁇ ing ground, you know, put your fing hands up.
00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:43.199
And in the other one, they were not cussing at them.
00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:57.679
And what the uh what the groups ultimately determined, or their perception, was that the use of force, although they were identical in both scenarios, uh involving the officers who were cussing and yelling at people was excessive.
00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:01.920
It was based on this uh idea that the cops were out of control.
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:03.519
They were angry and out of control.
00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:09.199
So it goes back to that ineffective force gives the appearance of unreasonable force.
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:15.920
Um if you appear to be emotionally charged and upset and angry, it also can give that appearance.
00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:16.559
Yeah, for sure.
00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:16.719
Yeah.
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:18.559
And it it starts to cause panic too.
00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:19.199
Exactly.
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:20.880
Like panic for us is an option.
00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:21.199
Yeah.
00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:22.960
We're trained to where panic's not an option.
00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:23.280
Right.
00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:25.440
No matter what the situation is, you can't panic.
00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:25.840
Yeah.
00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:35.519
I I look at this and I say, you know, to society, like we all have significant others or brothers or sisters or family members where we've had an argument before.
00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:36.239
Right.
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:43.280
Okay, and you've probably said something to that significant other or a family member, brother, sister, whatever, that you wish you could take back.
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:43.760
Yeah.
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:45.360
You said it because you were angry.
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:45.760
Right.
00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:46.880
Did that solve the problem?
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:47.519
Not at all.
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:48.079
Made it worse.
00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:48.800
It made it worse.
00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:49.599
Made it worse.
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:50.159
Exactly.
00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:51.760
That that's the same as panic.
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:54.639
We don't make emotional decisions off of panic and anger.
00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:55.440
Yeah.
00:47:55.760 --> 00:47:59.760
People that train at a higher level don't panic and don't get angry.
00:47:59.920 --> 00:48:00.079
Right.
00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:01.280
They go out and handle business.
00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:01.840
Exactly.
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:03.519
And that's that that's the difference, right?
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:05.840
Like society's way safer if we're training.
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:07.840
We're way safer for society.
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:08.079
Yeah.
00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:12.320
We're way safer for ourselves, we're way safer for the victims, and we're way safer for the suspects.
00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:12.719
Yeah.
00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:13.440
Yeah.
00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:15.840
And we just we know what the answer is.
00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:16.079
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:16.400
We do.
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:29.119
And and and that's I think uh you know, as that's something I try to do at Beacon Sheriff's House to get more and more of this, get that indoctrinated our culture, so that as you know, as someday when I'm not the sheriff, there'll be people who have been doing this for a long time, and it's all it's all part of that.
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:30.880
I want to take you back to 2020.
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:31.360
Okay.
00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:41.440
Um and uh we lost uh in California, I think probably in a lot of states, uh the um lateral vascular restraint, right?
00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:44.159
Um what's your take on that?
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:47.599
So again, that's just a knee-jerk reaction.
00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:52.159
It was because it's it's a knee-jerk reaction and it's uneducated decisions by people that don't understand.
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:52.800
Correct.
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:53.199
Okay.
00:48:53.760 --> 00:49:03.360
Now there are children and there are teenagers and there are adults in jujitsu gyms across this country.
00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:04.000
Exactly.
00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:05.599
Choking people every single day.
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:07.119
Every single day they apply that particular.
00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:08.159
Every single day.
00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:15.039
And if it's applied correctly and it's trained, it's way safer than multiple things.
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:27.920
Now my my stance on that in law enforcement, and I I I love jujitsu and I love vascular neck restraint, in a solo setting, uh-huh, it's very difficult for me to be like, I would go to the vascular neck restraint.
00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:28.239
Okay.
00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:37.360
And the reason being is it takes me five to eight, ten seconds to choke you out, and it takes you, the average person, what, 2.34 seconds or whatever it is to present a weapon.
00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:38.079
Yeah, exactly.
00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:38.320
Right.
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:41.440
And I can't control both your hands when I'm in a rare naked choke.
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:41.760
Right.
00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:41.920
Right.
00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:44.320
I can kind of double underhooks and control your wrists now.
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:50.000
In a team setting where I have them, and my partner comes up, he's reaching for a gun.
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:53.039
We don't know what he's reaching for, it's high-level force, and I got control of his wrist.
00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:57.360
And he comes up and applies into that vascular neck restraint, and the guy says, Okay, okay, put your hands behind your back.
00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:07.119
We release it, he doesn't go out, or he's still fighting, we keep it tight, he goes out, we release it, we immediately cuff him, roll him over, put his feet in the air, blood goes back to his head, and we move them, pick him up.
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:11.280
Maybe if they pass out, we move them to transport so that they can get checked out, whatever.
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:16.719
Saying that the vascular neck restraint is deadly physical force is absolutely crazy.
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:17.599
Agreed.
00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:23.840
And and the problem is we we lost it over something that didn't even involve it.
00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:25.440
Yeah, yeah, you're correct.
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:26.480
Right, right.
00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:32.000
And it was it was again the onslaught that, you know, the whole reform and and that was coming.
00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:50.239
And the challenge that I have with it, or the the the problem that I have with it, is not necessarily always uh uh the direct application of that particular technique, but there are lots of times in a physical altercation where you end up controlling somebody's head, right?
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:50.800
Sure.
00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:58.960
And um what I'm concerned about is cops thinking, oh, I can't grab this guy, he's charging me, I can't grab this guy.
00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:03.679
And you know if somebody comes and does a double-legg takedown on you, right?
00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:06.639
You get a wrestler or whatever, their head is going to be right there.
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:10.800
And the natural thing is to grab that and hold on to that, protect yourself, right?
00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:13.360
And you may just have a chin trap, which means I'm just on the chin.
00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:13.760
Exactly.
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:25.440
I'm not on the neck, but the people that are reviewing these, whether they're DAs or they're AGs or the society that's pushing it, yeah, and they have no idea what uh jujitsu is versus wrestling.
00:51:25.599 --> 00:51:26.800
Like I could cut the chin.
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:26.960
Yeah.
00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:28.239
I have no pressure on your neck.
00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:28.719
Yeah, exactly.
00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:29.280
Zero.
00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:29.679
Exactly.
00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:30.079
Right?
00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:31.920
And oh, he's choking him.
00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:32.639
No, he's not.
00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:33.360
No, not at all.
00:51:33.679 --> 00:51:37.679
So it's like, when are we gonna have accountability for the people that are making these laws?
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:38.559
Yeah, exactly.
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:38.960
Right?
00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:42.000
Like we need it, when are the politicians gonna have accountability?
00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:42.400
Yeah.
00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:49.119
Like New York City, in the city itself, in the city limits, it's not a state law, but in the city, they have this diaphragm law.
00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:49.599
Okay.
00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:57.679
You can't put any pressure on the diaphragm on the front or the back, kneeling, sitting, or standing.
00:51:57.840 --> 00:51:58.079
Okay.
00:51:58.239 --> 00:52:00.639
Nobody in police works standing on the guy's chest or the back.
00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:04.639
And if he is like they're probably an idiot, anyways.
00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:08.079
Sitting would be considered me mounting you.
00:52:08.159 --> 00:52:08.480
Yeah.
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:08.800
Right.
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:11.760
Me back mounting you, high wedging you to cuffing.
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:12.400
Okay.
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:18.239
Knee on top, if it's above the belly button, which could get easily from the hips to the belly button in a fight.
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:18.880
Absolutely.
00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:22.000
Violating the diaphragm law, the cops can get charged for that.
00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:26.000
What they can do is chest to chest control and chest to back control.
00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:26.559
Okay.
00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:29.280
So they have to work more of those applications.
00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:35.519
And we know like in chest-to-chest control, we have to really make sure that we take the near side arm and have that controlled somehow.
00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:35.760
Yeah.
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:40.880
Otherwise, we get ourselves in the positions that could be uh a little bit issue.
00:52:41.039 --> 00:52:41.360
Yeah.
00:52:41.679 --> 00:52:46.400
Stomach down, if we got to go chest to back only, okay, we're stuck off to the side.
00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:50.880
Or what we did is we just went from there and we created the low mount position.
00:52:51.039 --> 00:52:51.360
Okay.
00:52:51.840 --> 00:52:54.880
Because now the only I'm not I'm in a low mount.
00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:55.199
Yeah.
00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:58.639
Now when I extract the arm, I can't go up into wedge cuffing though.
00:52:58.719 --> 00:52:58.880
Yeah.
00:52:59.039 --> 00:53:01.039
I stay low mount, maybe my partner comes in.
00:53:01.119 --> 00:53:02.880
Now in New York City, they're always partnered up.
00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:03.199
Yeah.
00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:03.360
Okay.
00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:08.960
So if I am low mount and I pull it off, then they can control that arm and work the other arm, and then that person can cuff.
00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:09.280
Yeah.
00:53:09.599 --> 00:53:11.760
So again, we don't make these laws.
00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:17.679
Well, and then But we're going to constantly find ways to be better than what the suspect is.
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:18.719
Yeah, and I appreciate that.
00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:27.920
The problem is they're made by people who don't understand what it's like to be in a physical fight with somebody where you're trying to bring them under control and they're trying to kill you.
00:53:28.159 --> 00:53:28.239
Yeah.
00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:34.480
The best the best ones are like when we see the activists come and say, hey, you want to go through some scenario training, force on force?
00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:34.800
Yeah.
00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:39.039
And the act the activists are shooting unarmed guys that aren't even like hardly aggressive.
00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:39.519
Yeah.
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:40.000
Yeah.
00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:42.400
And it's because you don't they're judging it.
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:48.239
Graham Connor says we can't be judged from hindsight 2020, and that's all these people are doing.
00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:48.719
Yeah.
00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:55.599
Now, are there once in a while occasions where you're like it's an overuse of force and it shouldn't have happened?
00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:58.880
And did that person probably mean to do that or want to do that?
00:53:59.039 --> 00:53:59.840
No, they panicked.
00:53:59.920 --> 00:54:00.000
Yeah.
00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:01.119
They made a poor decision.
00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:02.800
Unfortunately, they violated the use of force.
00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:03.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:54:03.519 --> 00:54:03.679
Okay.
00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:04.400
Yeah.
00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:08.719
A majority of these ones are again just ineffective force.
00:54:09.039 --> 00:54:09.519
Ineffective.
00:54:10.639 --> 00:54:10.880
Yeah.
00:54:11.280 --> 00:54:12.559
And you cure that through training.
00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:13.840
You cure that through training.
00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:14.239
Yeah.
00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:14.559
Right.
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:14.960
Exactly.
00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:15.760
Continuously.
00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:16.559
Absolutely.
00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:17.280
Right.
00:54:17.360 --> 00:54:18.960
It's got to it's it has to be sustained.
00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:21.840
And it has to be and you you talked about this.
00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:28.960
It has to be there has to be a level of real as at least as real as you can make it under the circumstances.
00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:29.280
Right.
00:54:29.599 --> 00:54:30.400
The pressure testing of it.
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:38.000
I think some of the uh the most enjoyable parts of today's training was when we had the pressure testing.
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:38.719
And that was fun.
00:54:39.039 --> 00:54:39.760
It's fun to do that.
00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:40.320
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Why?
00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:43.280
Because you see failure, every move doesn't work every time.
00:54:43.519 --> 00:54:44.960
And now you're like, okay, now where do I go?
00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:45.280
Yeah.
00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:48.239
Instead of panicking, now I have to solve the problem.
00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:48.719
Yes.
00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:49.119
Right.
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:52.639
So when you train under pressure, you become a problem solver.
00:54:52.960 --> 00:54:53.199
Right.
00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:53.440
Right.
00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:54.400
Without panicking.
00:54:54.639 --> 00:54:55.920
Yeah, exactly.
00:54:56.320 --> 00:55:01.280
So how many uh you're moving, you've done a lot of work on the East Coast.
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:01.599
Yep.
00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:02.719
You start to move through.
00:55:02.800 --> 00:55:06.159
You're really starting to get more into uh the West Coast now, right?
00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:08.800
Yeah, we're all over uh internationally now.
00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:11.840
We have 72 courses for 2027.
00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:16.960
I already have 20 some courses to 30 courses booked for 20, or I'm sorry, for 2027.
00:55:17.199 --> 00:55:19.360
We have 72 courses booked for this year, 2026.
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:19.760
Okay.
00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:22.559
Got California Post certified.
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:27.039
Uh and you had a lot to help with doing that um earlier last year.
00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:27.360
Yeah.
00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:27.840
Okay.
00:55:28.159 --> 00:55:35.599
And now we're just looking to get more information out, get EFC out, EFC level one and two.
00:55:35.920 --> 00:55:38.079
And the reason is we know it's continuous training.
00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:42.639
We're not going to teach you to be great practitioners in 40 hours.
00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:43.360
Yeah.
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:50.000
But we can give you the material to leave with, give you the video library or resources to continue to train after we leave.
00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:52.719
We we're coming back to see people every two years for their certs.
00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:53.119
Yep.
00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:58.559
They're still training during the meantime, and and we're getting way more people training.
00:55:58.800 --> 00:55:59.039
Yeah.
00:55:59.599 --> 00:56:02.239
I go to courses uh 2015-16.
00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:04.480
I'm training and we train at lunch.
00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:06.000
We don't take a lunch break, we train at lunch.
00:56:06.079 --> 00:56:07.440
We do jujitsu wrestling, whatever.
00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:08.079
Right.
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:10.719
It was me and my my cadre.
00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:11.199
Yeah.
00:56:11.360 --> 00:56:12.639
Maybe one other person.
00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:17.840
Now we go to classes and sometimes it's half the class is staying to train lunch rolls.
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:18.000
Why?
00:56:18.079 --> 00:56:19.280
Because they're all training in jiu-jitsu.
00:56:19.360 --> 00:56:28.559
So the culture's training, cops are investing in themselves because the state isn't, the admin isn't for the most part.
00:56:29.199 --> 00:56:32.559
And and that's not the true exception to everybody, but the overall, right?
00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:37.760
So we are seeing a change, but the wheels of justice move slowly.
00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:38.320
They do.
00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:39.840
And that's a slow process, right?
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:48.480
Like again, I can't stress enough, and every time I talk on a podcast, it's like society needs to understand we are not trained robots.
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:49.039
Right.
00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:53.039
Actually, we're one of the most unfit professions there is, I think.
00:56:54.079 --> 00:56:58.239
So you want unfit people and they don't want to train now because they're going to get injured.
00:56:58.400 --> 00:56:58.639
Yeah.
00:56:58.800 --> 00:56:59.199
Yeah.
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:00.960
Well, that's a culture we built.
00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:01.760
Right.
00:57:02.079 --> 00:57:04.320
So like we're trying to undo it.
00:57:04.719 --> 00:57:08.239
We need society to help undo it, and we need politicians to help undo it.
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:09.679
It's got to be a team effort.
00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:10.880
We have to change this culture.
00:57:10.960 --> 00:57:14.639
We need to instead of defund the police, how about you train them better?
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:15.119
Yeah.
00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:19.360
We already know that's a the answer that's going to help things, but it's on a small scale.
00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:20.400
So we just need it on a bigger.
00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:20.880
Yeah.
00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:21.920
No, I appreciate that.
00:57:22.159 --> 00:57:40.000
You know, uh just so that people of Bugh County know, um uh as we've moved more into uh emphasizing defensive tactics training and and and coming up with programs like EFC, um we are training now defensive tactics uh at least quarterly.
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:40.639
Yep.
00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:41.599
It's not enough.
00:57:42.079 --> 00:57:44.880
No, but it's more than four times every two years.
00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:46.400
Yeah, four hours every two years.
00:57:46.480 --> 00:57:47.920
So we've we've definitely made that.
00:57:48.079 --> 00:58:01.440
Um we also have a program here in Butte County that allows um uh law enforcement officers to train at a number of MMA and jujitsu uh gyms uh free of charge, so that we're trying to encourage them to do that.
00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:05.840
Um certainly something that um you know I think has a lot of value.
00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:08.400
Uh so I really appreciate the work that you're doing.
00:58:08.719 --> 00:58:18.800
Uh so before we close up, is there anything uh uh you want to get across to the listeners or uh anybody uh bro outside of California in terms of where you want to go and what what needs to be done?
00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:21.599
You know, we're we're pretty much in every state right now.
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:26.559
Uh I would say that still like I bet you only 20% of the profession knows who we are.
00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:29.920
Because it's fairly new, but like we we are busy.
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:30.400
Yeah.
00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:31.840
And it's just growing.
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:35.679
And I think it just comes down to like the level of my instructors.
00:58:35.840 --> 00:58:49.119
Okay, like they're the the top-notch guys, both in some sort of grappling MMA wrestling, and they're all cops, yeah, or have been cops, and most of them have been on tactical teams, so that it's very hard to find that level of instruction.
00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:50.960
Yeah, and all my guys have that.
00:58:51.199 --> 00:58:55.199
We have a system, our curriculum is a system, yeah.
00:58:55.360 --> 00:59:04.239
And as you can see, like in teachbacks this morning, people are crushing the teachbacks in the morning, breaking down saying details and understanding what they're doing.
00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:05.760
That's the why of why they're doing it.
00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:08.559
Yeah, because it's easily retainable because it's just fundamentals.
00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:15.440
Yeah, we are extremely hard on understanding the environment that we're fighting in.
00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:22.320
Yeah, weapons involved, concrete, confined rooms, congested spaces, guidelines of use of force.
00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:23.280
Right, right.
00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:25.119
So I think that's why we're growing so fast.
00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:25.599
Good.
00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:29.360
Uh, probably the I would say we're probably the fastest growing combative company in the country by far.
00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:33.039
I don't think there's one that's growing faster than we are right now.
00:59:33.679 --> 00:59:36.079
The thing I want people to realize is just train.
00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:36.400
Yeah.
00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:41.039
Whether it's with me, whether it's someone else that's good, right, invest in yourselves.
00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:42.159
Exactly.
00:59:42.559 --> 00:59:44.320
And that goes for all police officers.
00:59:44.800 --> 00:59:46.559
Uh and that goes for society.
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:47.280
I agreed.
00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:55.679
Like I I tell people this if you're in the grocery store and a dude tries to take your child, yeah, can you stop them?
00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:56.639
Yeah, exactly.
00:59:57.199 --> 00:59:58.320
Most people think they can.
00:59:58.400 --> 01:00:00.079
Their emotional intelligence is very low.
01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:00.559
Right.
01:00:00.639 --> 01:00:00.719
Right.
01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:02.880
Emotional intelligence is a great thing to go through.
01:00:03.039 --> 01:00:03.119
Right.
01:00:03.360 --> 01:00:04.800
Get tested, work through it, right?
01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:06.320
Like those things are gr brilliant.
01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:06.800
Yeah.
01:00:06.880 --> 01:00:07.039
Yeah.
01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:11.440
Because if you don't know how to fight, you don't know how to fight.
01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:12.559
That's exactly right.
01:00:12.800 --> 01:00:13.599
You just don't know how to fight.
01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:14.159
You don't.
01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:14.480
Yeah.
01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:25.039
And that's, I think, one of the th the other issues with cops is um uh the a lot of cops don't know how to fight, but they don't realize they don't know how to fight.
01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:26.960
Yeah, or they don't want to know how bad they are.
01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:27.360
Correct.
01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:28.800
There's a lot of ego in our profession.
01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:29.440
Exactly right.
01:00:29.679 --> 01:00:31.280
And ego really stalls training.
01:00:31.599 --> 01:00:32.159
Yeah, for sure.
01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:32.800
For sure.
01:00:33.119 --> 01:00:37.360
The other thing is the average police response time is somewhere around seven and a half minutes.
01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:39.760
Who's saving you during that seven and a half?
01:00:39.920 --> 01:00:40.480
Absolutely right.
01:00:40.559 --> 01:00:41.360
Yeah, exactly right.
01:00:41.519 --> 01:00:42.079
Yeah, yeah.
01:00:42.400 --> 01:00:42.559
Right?
01:00:42.719 --> 01:00:43.360
Yeah, yourself.
01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:43.760
I agree.
01:00:43.840 --> 01:00:44.079
I agree.
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:45.119
Yourself is saving you.
01:00:45.360 --> 01:00:45.440
Yeah.
01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:45.920
Yeah.
01:00:46.079 --> 01:00:46.239
Yeah.
01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:47.360
That's what I'll leave people with.
01:00:47.760 --> 01:00:48.079
Sounds good.
01:00:48.239 --> 01:00:48.480
All right.
01:00:48.800 --> 01:00:49.920
Well, my friend, thanks for doing this.
01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:50.800
I really appreciate that.
01:00:51.119 --> 01:01:03.440
Number one, I appreciate the fact that you and your team have come out to Butte County to provide this, uh, in my view, excellent training to not only my staff but other uh law enforcement officers in the area.
01:01:03.519 --> 01:01:10.639
I think uh our community is gonna be even better served by virtue of the fact that you're training our people and that we're gonna go out and train the rest of our department.
01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:11.840
I think that's that's fantastic.
01:01:12.159 --> 01:01:14.960
I also appreciate you taking the time to to come on a podcast.
01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:16.239
You worked all day.
01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:21.760
Um but I do think it's it's a good way to get people out in our community to understand this issue and what we're doing.
01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:22.559
It is.
01:01:22.800 --> 01:01:25.599
And you know, we all know that we want transparency.
01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:26.079
Yeah.
01:01:26.239 --> 01:01:27.920
We gotta be part of that transparency.
01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:29.440
We gotta we gotta put that out there.
01:01:29.519 --> 01:01:31.519
We gotta be like, hey, our profession is broken.
01:01:31.599 --> 01:01:33.440
Yeah, the training profession is broken.
01:01:33.519 --> 01:01:34.239
Yeah, right.
01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:39.119
I I don't know one cop that comes to work and says, I want to go overuse force on something.
01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:39.679
Right, exactly.
01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:42.000
I don't know, I've never met a cop that said that today, right?
01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:42.719
Exactly, yeah.
01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:48.159
But if they don't have a high level of training and they get into a high situation and they panic, then sometimes that happens.
01:01:48.239 --> 01:01:48.480
Yeah.
01:01:48.639 --> 01:01:49.840
And it's unfortunate.
01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:55.599
Uh look at like um the Minnesota one that went viral.
01:01:55.679 --> 01:01:55.840
Yeah.
01:01:56.000 --> 01:01:56.480
Both of them.
01:01:56.559 --> 01:01:57.119
Yeah.
01:01:57.360 --> 01:02:01.840
I told people, I go, listen, you have to judge that from what the court's gonna look at it.
01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:05.119
Yeah, those are awful, but they're gonna be lawful.
01:02:05.199 --> 01:02:05.519
Yeah.
01:02:05.679 --> 01:02:11.360
You can agree with me or disagree with me, and they already think both have already said that neither are being charged, right?
01:02:11.519 --> 01:02:11.760
Yeah.
01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:14.239
Because what is the court judging it off of?
01:02:14.320 --> 01:02:15.840
What is the standard of the use of force?
01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:16.480
Yeah.
01:02:16.800 --> 01:02:19.360
Now, could we be better?
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:21.920
Could we have better tactics and not have that happen?
01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:24.480
Yes, that's why I say it's awful but lawful.
01:02:24.559 --> 01:02:24.800
Yeah.
01:02:25.039 --> 01:02:30.480
How about we start training people more, put more money into training, and then we'll have less awful but lawful situations.
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:31.599
More effective.
01:02:31.840 --> 01:02:33.360
More effective, more effective.
01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:34.000
Exactly.
01:02:34.159 --> 01:02:34.480
Exactly.
01:02:34.719 --> 01:02:34.880
Yep.
01:02:35.119 --> 01:02:35.679
All right, my friend.
01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:36.800
Well, thank you very much.
01:02:36.960 --> 01:02:42.079
Uh and to uh the citizens of Butte County and the listeners to this podcast, uh, thank you.
01:02:42.239 --> 01:02:46.719
I hope you uh enjoyed this particular podcast and find it informative.
01:02:47.039 --> 01:02:57.760
Uh as always, if you have uh any questions or uh topics that you'd like to take uh me to take on, uh you can email me at sheriffsmike at buttecounty.net.
01:02:58.239 --> 01:03:02.559
And until next time, stay informed, stay safe, and as always, you're clear to talk.