Episode 167 - Jonny King

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Welcome to the River Rambler, a production of Swing the
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Fly magazine and sponsored by Jaymon Bamboo Rods. Welcome to
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the River Rambler, production of Swing the Fly Magazine. My
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guest today is Johnny came from the Steelhead capital of
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the East, New York City. Johnny, thanks for taking time
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to visit.
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Man for the invite, Richard, I'm looking forward to it.
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So, as a kid from New York, how did you
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get started fishing?
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Well, it wasn't because of anyone in my family. I
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had a friend growing up. He was in school with
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me in New York, and he used to spend the
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summers in Nantucket. So you think he was a fish
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for stripers, but he fished for bass with worms and
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then Nantucket Pond. So my parents used to go. My
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parents used to go to Connectic Newtown, Connecticut on the weekends.
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I said, I'm gonna teach myself to fish. So I
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had him buy me a little you know, push button Zepco.
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And I started reading a magazine called Fishing Facts, which
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published a book called Lunkers Love Nightcrawlers. So what I
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would do the best thing in the world, so I
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would put on I had my parents get me something
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that was like whatever a nine year old wears for waiters.
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I went down the lawn. I would get nightcrawlers at night,
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and I bought some like special moss that would if
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you left them in the moss, they would become these
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turbocharged nightcrawlers. And then I would go around to any
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little ditch that was more than twenty feet wide and
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terrorize the large mouth bass. And then at some point,
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maybe when I was eleven, I saw a picture of
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a guy fly fishing, and I said, that looks way cooler.
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And from that point on I never really used anything
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other than the fly rod, although I had many years
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of flailing around not knowing what I was doing. And
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you know, I got the brown Fenwick glass with the
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diamond wraps. I got a fluger reel at a at
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a sporting good store in New York. I flailed around
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with that and there was a stocked It wasn't actually
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stop troup on. It was a hatchery haunt. And my
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mom and dad would bring me to in Connecticut and
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you can see the fish swimming around, and eventually I
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started to catch fish and I said, so you can
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make these flies. So you remember the herder's catalog on shore,
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so I learned to spind.
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Deer hair was the herder's fly time guide.
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Super it was super eccentric, right, because you would have
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you would have fly patterns and involved like human hair,
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dog hair. But what did I know? And I would
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persuade my parents, you know, I got to buy this
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chicken neck or whatever it was. And I think I
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probably even still have some of that stuff. And I
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just started reading books and making flies, and my parents
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indulged it. And other than a little hiatus in college,
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I have been fly fishing. I think since when I
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was eleven, I had caught two or three fish on
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a spin rod since that time. Do you have siblings,
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I do. None of them have even the remotest interest
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in fishing.
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It's the same. I'm one of seven, and my little
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brother would come down to Florida when I was doing
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when I was working down there some and would drive
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a boat so I could fish, but just would not
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pick up a fishing rod to save his life.
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Sister. So when I had all my fly tying stuff,
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we had an apartment in Manhattan, and I would tie
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flies literally in a closet because there's no other place
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and I had a little shelf that I clear off. You know,
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there's all there's calftail and rooster hackle and foxford, and
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my sister called it my Jeffrey Dahmer closet. What is
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Johnny doing in that that he's clearly doing something that's
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like not proper.
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It's it's like because fly tying and drawing kept me
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out of trouble. I was also just painfully shy as
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a kid, which nobody knows me now will even so
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I spent my weekends when I wasn't when I got
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my job list done. All the way up through middle
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of high school, I saw my weekends time flies and drawing.
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It's really weird, you know it. Just know some great
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fishermen who don't tie flies right, and I, to me,
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they're totally inseparable. And I have this like totally fullish superstition,
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which is I don't use other people's flies. For the
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most part, I don't use other people's fly patterns. And
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it's not because I think my flies are any more effective,
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but it's sort of part of the reason. You know.
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It's there's so many self imposed limitations with fly fishing,
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so this is mine that I've been observing for whatever
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it is, you know, fifty years.
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It's funny I did that up until probably Actually, I
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can tell you when two reasons. One, at the cape,
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I know nothing about striper fishing. I'm totally at the
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whim of my buddy Coop, and I just hold my
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hand out for a fly and he puts one in
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there and I fish that till I lose it, and
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he gives me another one. I've tied a few for it,
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but it's not my jam. And then because of the podcast,
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some wonderful fly tires give me flies, and I got
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intrigued that I wanted to fish them. And that's up.
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I probably ran fifty five years or so without using
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anyone else's flies and again and say not because I
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thought mine were better. It was just I wanted. I
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wanted the whole thing.
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Now. I The thing is that whether I'm tired of
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eating striper flies or steel ed flies or little tiny
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size twenty you know, blueing dollars or offshore flies, it's
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it's all like scratches the same itch, and I approach
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it the same way. In fact, one of the oddities
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for me, I kind of resisted steelheed fishing for a
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while because I said, you guys aren't imitating anything. What's
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the point of tying a fly if you're not trying
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to make some living creature? Right, you know, because I've
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tied flies for every kind of fish, but you know,
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like an Atlantic salmon flies beautiful, but it looks more
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like arts and crests me. It's not really, you're not
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tying it. You're not marrying all these feathers together, because
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it's that much more effective. But then, of course I
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caught a few steel head and I said, oh this
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is cool. I'll tie you know, I'll tie whatever's required.
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Well for me too. The thing that changed there was
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once I got back out west, and especially fishing out
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on the ocean with my buddy Rob Perkin, there's so
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many squid and shrimp in flies, and all of a
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sudden it simplified my fly tying. I'm for in the
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West coast. When I'm still at fishing, I'm thinking tear
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drop shape with wiggle and just a few color.
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Variations from your mind in your mind are you thinking?
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And the fish finds that appealing because it resembles something
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at eight or just because mechanically the tears rop shape
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looks great.
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When it's I'm thinking bait summertime. Summertime not so much. Well,
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in fact, we both know a wonderful tire, Barrett ames
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and he ties a version of a steelhead Coachman that
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I called Barrett's Magic Coachman. But I don't know if
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he calls it anything, but for sure, exquisite tire and
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everything's thought out, and.
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That's super function. We were just down in Florida because
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there's a there's one of these sort of tying trade shows.
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It's called Lefty Craze tie Fest. And Barrett went down
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and had a non booth, and I'd been thinking about
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going down anyway. I had done it years ago when
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it was in Maryland. So I tied at Barrett's booth
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and we got to go do some snow fishing. So
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he pulled out a saltwater flies, which were great too.
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I mean, the guy just knows how to fish and
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knows how to tie fly.
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He's a fishy son of a gun.
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Absolutely.
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So he took a break in college. What was that about?
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Where school?
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I went to Princeton, And the truth is I was
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already a professional musician by the time I got to Princeton,
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and I was playing like five nights a week, so
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I was barely there.
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Yeah. And all the time I fished in college, you.
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Were working, Yeah, I mean I was working. You know.
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That was probably that was probably my sort of in
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relative terms, wealthiest period of my life, right, because when
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you're a college kid and people are paying you in
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cash all the time, right, you're like the richest kid
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on campus. And plus there was no jazz there, so
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I kind of had a monopoly on all the gigs.
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But I always thought about it, and I didn't resume it.
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I've lived in Boston for about six years, so I
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had that little I literally fished till the end of
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high school and then just was playing so many gigs.
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I kind of bagged it for four years from eighteen
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to twenty two, and then resumed it, you know till
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the present, like with total obsession, right, I mean I
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could barely work because I'm checking fishing reports.
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All.
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Right.
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That's that's actually the thing that happened to me was
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when I just became totally I'm not obsessed with well,
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maybe I am obsessed with it. I just have marginal
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interest in everything else other than steel head.
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And that's interesting that you like confined it to this
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one type of fish.
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Well, I think it's it's probably because life has taken
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some serious left turns on me, and now I look
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at it that if I go do this. I got
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a dear friend of mine asked me to go fish
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Pyramid Lake a few years ago, and I thought, if
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I did that, which I don't have a lot of
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interest in anyway, I'm kind of curious about it, but
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if I did this.
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Staff flattering fish and yeah, it's.
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Not really but if I did that, I wouldn't be
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able to do something else. So everything's a trade off again.
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Going back to Coop, one day, we're walking in a
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stretch out on the on the cape and he just
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offinally said I can count the number of trips we
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have left and I was like what, and he said,
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think about it. I mean it's it's a burly walk.
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How long are we gonna be able to do this?
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Pretty sobering thought, I'm like shit, And he goes.
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Six times a year, So six times a year, twenty times,
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you know that's it? And I'm like you damn right,
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you know, well, but it infiltrated my brain and next thing,
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you know I am thinking that way, and I'm like,
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everything's a trade off. If I do this, I can't
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do that, and so sorry.
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Go ahead.
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Oh so I mostly until this move, I saved my
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fishing for steelhead.
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I think. I think my experience with it is that.
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So when I moved up to Boston, I started fishing again.
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And up there, you know, it was all stripers and
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there were some wild trout streams in central Massachusetts, and
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that was when I started, you know, to It was
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in the early nineties. I decided I'm gonna try bonefish, tarpin, permit,
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all that stuff. So I think it was in nineteen
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ninety three I caught my first My parents were going
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to belize, believe it or not, for like a regular vacation.
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I said, I'm gonna come along and get a fishing guide.
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So I hired a guy out of one of the
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lodges there. They were up in San Pedro. There's a
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famous lodge called El Pescador. But I found an independent guide,
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took me out and I fished for four days and
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I caught about a forty pound tarpet, and you know,
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forty pounds not that big of tarpet's slight, fun size.
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But it's also when you've never caught a fish over
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like twelve pounds, it's the greatest. So I thought, Okay,
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I'm ruined. I'll never have interest in any other kind
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of fishing. But a week later, I was with my friend.
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We're fishing our Brookie stream and I'm hiding behind this
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boulder and I'm catching these six inch brookies, you know,
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on a little probably like a tractor drive fly, and
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I realized it's all context. I'm having as good a
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time as when I hop you know, so it's what
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was available to me. So you know, I don't have
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the shoots in my backyard. So right now, steel ahead
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fishing I'm completely obsessed with because it's this exotic thing
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that's not as available destination fishing, and you know, I
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have some history from my way past doing it, and
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and and but I think, so you moved to Pennsylvania.
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Right yeah?
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Yeah, where are you in Pennsylvania right now?
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I'm moving in Bushkill. I'm right near the Delaware Water Gap.
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Okay, so you have like skeds of fishing opportunities, isn't
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it right?
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Yeah, I haven't even put my foot in the water yet.
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Well, We'll get you up to the Delaware up where
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it's a trout you know, Trout river, you can go.
243
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I lived in western New York for forty years, so
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do you know the deal. I fished the Delaware some and.
245
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Years ago, needless to say, but yeah.
246
00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:46.240
And I recently met Patrick.
247
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Cook, one of my close friends. He just called, yeah,
248
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and uh, you meet him at Deady.
249
00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:55.480
Yeah. And I actually went in to get back. I
250
00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:58.639
was driving between my daughter's houses and I had a
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00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:01.879
couple of reels I needed backing and went in and
252
00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:05.039
I went into Daddy's when I was in college, when
253
00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:06.879
it was essentially the size of a front porch.
254
00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:09.679
So to go to the spy shop in the United States.
255
00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:11.559
I think it's over one hundred years old.
256
00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:15.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I when when I was going
257
00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:19.440
it was Walton, Whennie it was when I was in
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00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:22.240
college Walton Whennie were running it, and it was just
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00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:24.399
it was their house with the shop was in the
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front porch. And then I think their daughter grew it,
261
00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:29.399
and then it's grown more since then.
262
00:13:30.519 --> 00:13:32.200
It's the it's sort of the o G shop and
263
00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:35.320
the catskills, you know, some have come and gone.
264
00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:38.240
So I'll get back into it. And I still the
265
00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:41.720
other I still like small mouth fishing a lot, and
266
00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:45.960
I love tiny blue line trout fishing. I have a
267
00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:48.440
couple of little light, super lightweight fly rods and stuff.
268
00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:51.639
They're really fun to a little six foot one weight
269
00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:55.240
bamboo that's really fun on tiny little stuff for brook trout.
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00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.879
I mean the mainstam Delaware. You know, my wife and
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I have been going and we got married on the
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banks in the nineties. But we finally bought a place
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00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:04.720
and fix it up on the mainstem of the Delaware,
274
00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:08.000
which is cool, which is below where sort of the
275
00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.240
main drat fishing is. But it's great all winter up
276
00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:13.120
until about and the fish are bigger, you know, because
277
00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:16.000
it's sort of the downstream. It's a small mouth and
278
00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:18.080
chad and all kinds of other stuff. I mean, I've
279
00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:22.000
got snakeheads on a fly rod down there. But but
280
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the thing is, it's you know, it's the size of
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a steel it river. It's a big river. It's four
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hundred feet wide, and and we fish Pat Pat Cook
283
00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.679
and I and the other friend of ours Joe Cavel,
284
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who went you know, did the trip with Barrett. Other
285
00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:39.399
people you're here about, like David Nelson and J. C. Clark.
286
00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:41.600
All of us are fishing with spae rods when the
287
00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:45.799
fish aren't rising. But but again, you know, you get
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00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:49.840
fascinated with the thing that's available to you. All these
289
00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:52.399
all these all these places are great, right Like I
290
00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.279
never I never tell someone my fishing is superior to theirs,
291
00:14:56.360 --> 00:14:58.399
because if I lived on the if I lived on
292
00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:02.120
the Madison or Saskatchewan or in the Amazon Basin, I
293
00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:03.919
would think that's the coolest thing of all time.
294
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:07.399
You know. Well, and that, uh, that really probably for
295
00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:11.440
me is what narrows it down is I love the
296
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:16.200
rivers I grew up without West. I love the flow rate,
297
00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:21.399
the topography around them. I love being in the rainforest.
298
00:15:23.080 --> 00:15:25.200
Who would right like, yeah, that's and.
299
00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:27.960
That that's that to me is one because I when
300
00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:30.519
I was having to travel to Florida for work, I
301
00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.080
would always take a canoe and a sea kayak, and
302
00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:34.879
it was if it was cold, I did the sea
303
00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:37.080
kayak out and explore and it was hot, I dig
304
00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:41.320
the canoe on fish. And if tarpain lived where it
305
00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:44.039
was warm, if or cold, if snook lived where it
306
00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:46.799
was cold, and Grand Rivers, I'd fish the crap out
307
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:47.120
of those.
308
00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:49.039
Well, Barrett and I were doing that when we were
309
00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:51.440
down there in Florida, and it's just from I hadn't
310
00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:52.559
done it in a while. I've done a lot in
311
00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:56.320
my past. It's so fun poking along the mangroves, trying
312
00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:00.600
different little flies, you know, pulling, it's you know, there
313
00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:02.759
there are certain things I'm not I'm not really interested
314
00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:07.000
in nim fishing and and but most other kinds, you know,
315
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.519
or like, you know, teasing a billfish up to the
316
00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:11.799
to the stern of a boat and then flopping a
317
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:16.000
cast ten feet like who cares, right, But but they're
318
00:16:16.039 --> 00:16:20.360
all rooster fish are cool, and and and.
319
00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:24.639
A couple of exotics. Still have my rooster fish and
320
00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:26.480
a dorado in the jungle.
321
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:31.080
I haven't done that roosters. Roosters are very cool, you know.
322
00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:34.360
And and one of my friends who is a friend
323
00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:36.120
from the Spade World, I don't know if you've had
324
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:38.279
him on the show, James Shaughnessy. He's the owner of
325
00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:44.480
Beulah Fly. I haven't so James. So James owns Beulah
326
00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:47.279
and his rep is Bruce Berry. You probably know him.
327
00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.879
I know Bruce and both great guys. But James lives
328
00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:53.440
at the Year down in Baja and has like the
329
00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:56.279
best rooster fish operation down there. So I go down
330
00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:58.440
there and fish with him. He would love that. It's
331
00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:02.840
beyond fun. He's so fun to hang out with. And
332
00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:05.720
the type of fishing and same thing. The topography. It's
333
00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:08.400
like a giant aquarium with huge fish in it. So
334
00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:10.240
but so is Cape Cod Bay.
335
00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:10.559
You know.
336
00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:12.599
I used to fish Cape Cod Bay for bluefin tuna.
337
00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:17.839
And there's whales and bluefish and basking sharks and thirty
338
00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:20.279
pound bluefin tuna and one thousand pounds blue fin tuna.
339
00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:21.720
You know, they're all cool.
340
00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:24.799
Yeah, That's that's really what comes down to. There's just
341
00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:27.039
they're all magical in their own way.
342
00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:31.839
So you know, I can understand the fascination with steel
343
00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:35.359
just like their life journey. The fact that they're giant
344
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:38.000
rainbow trout that you know, fight really hard to jump
345
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:40.480
and take these long runs and you're catching them in
346
00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:45.920
this totally you know, like borderline absurd way right, Like
347
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:48.440
like I can totally get that, right, the notion that
348
00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:50.359
they've just come from the o. You know, we catch shit.
349
00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:53.640
I've got stripers way upstream in the Delaware, hundreds and
350
00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:56.480
hundreds of miles from the ocean, right, it's all amazing.
351
00:17:56.519 --> 00:17:59.359
The eels in the Delaware River, you know, are not
352
00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:02.599
a nature miss. They're catatromus. So that means they live
353
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.000
in the river and they spawn out in a sea
354
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:08.880
in the Caribbean called this hard Gaso Sea. So and
355
00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:11.799
you see them all the time. So anadromus obviously you
356
00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:13.359
know what that means, right, they come up the rivers
357
00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:15.119
to spawn. Strikers are anadremus.
358
00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:16.640
No, never even hurt.
359
00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:20.400
Catatrous that that right, crate. But but how crazy is
360
00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:23.440
that they all go to this Sargasso Sea to spawn, right,
361
00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:26.680
These you know, these ugly snaky you know, two and
362
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:27.839
a half of long things.
363
00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:31.680
Yeah, yeah, it's it's a little bit like seeing the
364
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:35.359
hellbenders down in the South that you see a salamander
365
00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:38.279
that's eighteen inches long and it just kind of floors here.
366
00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:40.960
That was that I didn't know there's lived.
367
00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:42.119
Around here right right.
368
00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:48.519
Well, so it's back up a minute. Playing gigs in college.
369
00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:54.319
You're playing gigs before college? How did you get into music?
370
00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:58.480
So again, it's not a family thing, right, because nobody
371
00:18:58.519 --> 00:19:00.440
in my family was in music. In fact, my sisters
372
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:02.680
took piano lessons, but like super reluctantly.
373
00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:07.519
And now that's that's my whole family, and none of
374
00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:08.559
us musicians.
375
00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:11.599
And my brother is now plays music professionally, but he
376
00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.000
didn't when we were young. He took play guitar a little.
377
00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:16.200
But what happened is when what really happened is my
378
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.359
parents took me to the movie The Sting. Do you
379
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:24.480
remember that movie? Well, right, So then I didn't understand
380
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:26.119
it because I was too young, Yeah, exactly. It was
381
00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:29.720
that little notes flick thing. So I heard the music,
382
00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:32.599
which was ragtime, which is kind of a precursor of jazz,
383
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:35.160
and I just came home. I was nine. It was
384
00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:37.279
about the time I got into fishing, and I just
385
00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:39.160
started figuring it out and I said, Mom, Dad, I
386
00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:42.359
don't want piano lessons. So the same guy who taught
387
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.359
my sisters came and taught me, and within like you know,
388
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:47.519
he taught me some rudiments, but I just didn't want
389
00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:49.759
to play anything as it was written on the page.
390
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:53.039
So I started making stuff up, which is kind of
391
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.839
what a jazz musician does, right, You're always improvising. And
392
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:01.119
I had a teacher, a good teacher in high school.
393
00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:04.759
You'd actually played with Charlie Parker in the orchestral setting.
394
00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:07.799
But I really learned like the old school way, like
395
00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.839
just like like the street way, like just hanging around musicians,
396
00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:14.200
soaking up what you could. And by the time I
397
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:15.759
was a teenager, I was started to play in bars
398
00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:18.119
for money. The time I was college, it was you know,
399
00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:22.839
a full on professional and particularly during that era like
400
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:26.519
eighties and nineties, there was this real kind of apprentice
401
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:29.519
ship thing that went on where these There was a
402
00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:32.200
club we all used to play called Bradley's, which was
403
00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:36.039
one of the most famous jazz clubs in history. It
404
00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:38.319
was a piano bar where you'd have duos and trios,
405
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:40.839
but you would have all the legends play and then
406
00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:43.240
you'd have young guys like yours truly and all my
407
00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:47.519
friends from my generation, and they'd come sit in with us,
408
00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:49.880
or I'd play my gig and then some legendary pianels
409
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:51.559
would come sit down and say, you know, you might
410
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:55.839
want to try this. It was just like an irreplaceable experience.
411
00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:57.839
There were nights there where I played and I looked
412
00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:01.279
at the piano in the entire history of jazz piano
413
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:03.559
was sitting at the bar, and for the most part,
414
00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:07.279
they were all cool and supportive and I kind of
415
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.240
learned that way. And you know, I've been playing professionally
416
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:14.640
ever since. But it's just because I heard stuff in
417
00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:15.640
a movie.
418
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:19.680
You must be hardwired for music, do you know what?
419
00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:23.880
I think the thing is. I think like it's less
420
00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:27.599
a matter of talent, and I'm not saying I'm talented,
421
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.960
and it's really desire the way you are, absolutely, you know,
422
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:32.440
the way you get. I mean, I mean, I think
423
00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:34.240
there's some people who just kind of, you know, it's
424
00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:34.839
just not in them.
425
00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:37.880
Well, and that's actually when I said hardwired, I didn't mean.
426
00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:41.119
One of the things I hate is, oh, you're so
427
00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:45.279
gifted and like people won't realize whatever creative thing you're
428
00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:48.000
doing is fucking hard work. Right?
429
00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:51.000
You painted for how many you know? What's the Malcolm
430
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:54.160
Gladwell says, all right, I cant ask.
431
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:55.839
All the time, how how do I learn how to paint?
432
00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:58.599
I said, five hundred bad paintings exactly.
433
00:21:58.720 --> 00:21:59.599
So.
434
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:02.880
So so it's there's something that compels you forward.
435
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:08.440
Same thing with fishing. There I cannot explain the obsession,
436
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:11.680
but I could not imagine my life without doing both
437
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.440
of those things. There's no like more rational. I mean,
438
00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:17.960
you know, it's like there's but that's the way people are.
439
00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:22.480
That's sort of what keeps life fun, right, And you know,
440
00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:24.240
I had a period of time where I was going
441
00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:27.279
on the road a lot, and then I decided not
442
00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:29.359
to do that, and I was working part time as
443
00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:33.279
a lawyer, and because I went to law school because
444
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:36.279
I wanted to have a fallback thing. And when I
445
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:38.000
went on the road after my kids were born, I
446
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:39.759
would come back from being on the road and they
447
00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:42.039
would just be different. And I said, I'm just gonna
448
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:45.559
do this anymore, right, Like I'm not getting enough musical
449
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:49.759
satisfaction to sacrifice being with my kids. Yeah, So from
450
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:53.039
like early mid two thousand to about twenty ten, I
451
00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:55.839
sort of had somewhat of hiatus of playing. Then they
452
00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:58.920
got a little older and I started playing gigskif, But
453
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.559
I don't go on the road. Mostly just play in
454
00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:04.480
the Northeast, right, And the jazz economy is different now.
455
00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:06.200
It's not like there are two month tours in Europe
456
00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:09.160
or South America or Asian anymore, which back then was
457
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:12.319
pretty routine. They'd be gone for two weeks, four weeks,
458
00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:15.920
six weeks. Now, you know, just the money's not there
459
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:18.759
to support it, so I'm better off just playing around here.
460
00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:23.720
Yeah. Well, and I think parenting wise, you've got like
461
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:28.240
the first twelve thirteen years and then your kids focus
462
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:34.359
turns outward, and I think you're mostly like a ride
463
00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:35.079
and support.
464
00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:38.400
They want me to play, right, like my I'm super
465
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:40.839
close to my daughter's but they want me playing music
466
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:43.200
because they don't makes me happy, right. They want me
467
00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:46.400
going fishing too. Yeah, well, like I want, I want
468
00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:48.079
my wife to do the thing that she likes.
469
00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:51.119
You know, like you guys got married on the Delaware
470
00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:53.279
do you guys, does your wife fish with you? No?
471
00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:56.440
So, my wife is super outdoorsy and she's very involved
472
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:59.920
in the conservation organization, so so she loves to hike camp.
473
00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:03.640
So it's a funny thing. So we met in ninety six.
474
00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:07.440
I'm playing at that place, Bradley's, and the guy who
475
00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:10.319
took the money at the door, he was effectively the
476
00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:12.720
bouncer no people. He was a rough customer, but he
477
00:24:12.759 --> 00:24:14.799
really liked me. He knew my whole life story. He
478
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:18.119
knew everything that had happened. I had had a personal
479
00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:21.400
tragedy and so he knew that. He just knew my
480
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:23.480
deal and he said, hey, there's a really beautiful woman.
481
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:25.720
You need to go talk to her. I was like, okay, Larry.
482
00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:29.319
So I talked to her and we started going out.
483
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:31.880
And that was in January of ninety six, and I
484
00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:33.960
was going down to the Everglades to live on a
485
00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:36.519
boat to fish for like a week. She said I'm
486
00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:38.240
gonna come with you, and of course I was totally
487
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:39.880
freaked out. I was like, oh my god, this is
488
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:43.839
way too this is way too serious. She's infiltrating, you know,
489
00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:48.160
my sacred temple of fishing. So we go and I'm
490
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:53.359
fliling away with my tenway and the guide gives her
491
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:55.880
spin rod. So she casts out you know what a mirror, Laura's,
492
00:24:56.079 --> 00:25:00.279
you know, and about it. One hundred pounds tarping comes
493
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:03.400
and swipes out it. She said, my god, that's what
494
00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:06.079
we're fishing for. I was like, oh, yeah, they're really big.
495
00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:08.359
So so proceeds to catch in one hundred and thirty
496
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:12.559
pound tarp So I jumped one tarp and that was
497
00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:16.200
maybe thirty pounds that whole trip. So then we're going
498
00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:18.920
along the mangroves and the guy says, right in there,
499
00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:20.839
just throw your mirror, Laura in there. She catches twelve
500
00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:23.039
pound snook, and I think I caught like a two
501
00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:25.720
pound largemouth bass and a gar and I caught a gar.
502
00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:31.799
So Jacqueline totally so so. But but Jacqueline and I
503
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:34.799
were really good friends with Jim and Kitty Vincent, you
504
00:25:34.839 --> 00:25:37.640
know Jim Vincent, who was the founder of RIO. So
505
00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:42.240
we all went fishing together, like we camped together on
506
00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.440
the banks of the Missouri. My fortieth birthday party, Jacqueline
507
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:47.519
and Jim had us go down to the Bahamas and
508
00:25:47.559 --> 00:25:49.680
bone fish. I went to the Missouri with him, and
509
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:52.279
the first time I steal it fished was in nineteen
510
00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:55.279
ninety eight, about three weeks after my honeymoon with Jim
511
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:59.359
and Kitty and British Columbia fishing. Kiss kissed the ox
512
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:03.799
and the Skeena and the Bulkley. But so that's ninety eight.
513
00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:06.119
So right, there are all these spade bumps. Everyone's hanging
514
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:08.599
out at Bob Clay's house. Bob would not remember me,
515
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:11.200
and I showed up with my striper rod, my eight weight,
516
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:14.880
my three fifty grade, and Jim tried to show me
517
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:17.599
how to cast whatever is probably like a fourteen foot spa,
518
00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:19.720
I don't know, ninety eight it was probably I think it.
519
00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:21.960
Was ninety eight. It's also it's probably a wind cutter.
520
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:25.319
Yeah, it was a wind cutter, of course. And and
521
00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:27.440
Simon had already come. But Simon was not with us.
522
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:31.079
He had already come to the US. Jim came in
523
00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:35.319
ninety seven. I don't remember, but and I was like, Jim,
524
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:38.279
this thing sucks. This thing is huge, and I'm like,
525
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:42.000
you know doing and I'm like, how can this be?
526
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:46.960
So I'm not catching anything? And the fishing wasn't that great,
527
00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:50.960
But there were all these ogs of like like serious
528
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:54.920
spae guys, right, and and you know, Jim is obviously
529
00:26:54.960 --> 00:27:00.519
responsible for re sort of you know, he developed Cutter.
530
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:02.759
He's really one of the first people to sort of
531
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:05.000
conceive of how to do this. He's very influential and
532
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:08.240
also an amazing fisherman in general and a super interesting
533
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:10.319
human being, like one of the most interesting people I've
534
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:13.240
ever My wife loved him. He passed away. We're still
535
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:17.920
friendly with Kitty. Also totally fascinating, like brilliant people. But
536
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:20.759
all these guys, and there's like one or two of
537
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:22.640
them were catching a fish. And there was some guy
538
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:24.960
who was the younger brother of someone who seemed to
539
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:27.720
command the same level of respect as like Jim and
540
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:30.400
Bob play. And I don't remember his name, but he
541
00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:33.519
had a younger brother who had just gotten divorced, looked
542
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:36.160
like he hadn't changed his fleece pants in like six months,
543
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:39.680
and was camping out. And he said, I'm gonna get
544
00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:43.039
you a steelhead. So he took me to and Jim
545
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:44.759
is like, go fish with him, because you're not catching
546
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:48.039
anything with me. And this guy, I swear will to
547
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:50.759
be into a steelhead, and I'm throwing my like striper fly.
548
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:54.920
I saw some steelhead. I some marabou around like a
549
00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:59.119
big hook, like a saltwater hook, and he caught a fish,
550
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:01.400
you know. He caught like a modest sized steelhead. And
551
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:04.000
then he said, I just feel it, you're going to
552
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:06.279
catch one. And we're in the middle of nowhere. I
553
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:08.839
got my beard like I'm looking like, you know, I'm
554
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:12.880
like a South American revolutionary, and I hook a giant
555
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:15.359
steelhead and run like one hundred and fifty yards to
556
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:17.680
keep up with it, and the guy ran a quarter
557
00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:20.079
of a mile back to it. I would love to
558
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:22.400
find this guy if I could remember his name to
559
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:24.079
his car and have a picture of me holding this
560
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:26.440
like thirty five thirty six, like about a seventeen or
561
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:30.000
eighteen pounds steelhead with the mountains in the back. And
562
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:33.599
then I did not steal aheading fish again until twenty seventeen.
563
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:38.160
So that was from nine because because it wasn't accessible
564
00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:40.680
to me, because I didn't think, you know, I was thinking, okay,
565
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:43.319
British Columbia, like, and I went and caught some fish
566
00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:47.240
on the Bulkley that week too with Jim, or at
567
00:28:47.319 --> 00:28:48.319
least in the same way.
568
00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:50.880
Yeah, but from New York it's not accessible.
569
00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:53.519
Right, And you know, the Salmon River wasn't I didn't
570
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:56.759
have a car or whatever, like, Salmon River wasn't on
571
00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:04.160
my radar. But I just the fight was like absolutely spectacular,
572
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:06.440
right and the setting, you know, the skina is like
573
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:11.279
the most incredible place. The river's humongous. And but you know,
574
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:14.200
then I was fishing for permittent stripers and got really
575
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:18.119
into the drive live thing and and my friend from Beulah, James,
576
00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:21.039
lured me back into the steelhead thing in twenty seventeen.
577
00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:25.119
So did you meet him from single hand fish from
578
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:26.640
saltwater Fish?
579
00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:28.960
Well, so there are these trade shows. I don't know
580
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:31.039
if you've gone to them. I've actually been to one,
581
00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:34.359
so I've been tying flies at them for about twenty
582
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:38.039
some odd years. And back in like I don't know,
583
00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:40.559
I think two thousand and six, two thousand and seven,
584
00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:43.359
I had developed a little baitfish pattern which has been
585
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:45.640
commercially sold for a long time, and it's called a
586
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:49.519
inky muddler because it wasn't wasn't a sexual innuendo. The
587
00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:53.640
material was called kinky fiber, so so you you made
588
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:55.960
the head, it was like a synthetic.
589
00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:56.759
Muddler, so it sinks.
590
00:29:58.279 --> 00:30:01.039
And also just primarily because so it sinks better because
591
00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:03.279
I didn't want to fly. It's translucent. And also you
592
00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:06.079
can have this kind of uninterrupted profile. So if you
593
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:09.359
have buckdale and saddle acles whatever is fox for, you
594
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:12.200
could just have it imitate the shape and also the
595
00:30:12.200 --> 00:30:15.079
swimming action were real fish. So James came up to me, said,
596
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:18.160
you know, I have this roosterfish operation. These would be
597
00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:22.480
killers sardina flies. So I gave him some bugs. He
598
00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:25.240
went and actually his wife caught like three world records
599
00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:30.599
on one or something, and we just became friends. And
600
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:32.599
what I used to do is I would supply I
601
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:35.519
would supply flies for his rooster fish trips and he'd
602
00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:37.240
send me a rods, and he sent me a trout
603
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:39.079
spay rod. So I started scoring around with it on
604
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:41.960
the Delaware and then he said, you know, you need
605
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:44.920
to come out to the rogue. So I went with him.
606
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:46.839
I called like five steel it in three days on
607
00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:49.839
the rogue, and they weren't very big, but I thought,
608
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:52.440
but by that point I was at least able to
609
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:55.920
get the line in front of me without like impaling myself,
610
00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:58.160
which is you know, that was the first step. So
611
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:01.240
since that time, I've been kind of and I've gone
612
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:03.000
back and done that. We poked around the North Umpquin
613
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:07.640
stuff like that, but I mean I had limited stealing experience.
614
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:09.119
And then last year was the first time on the
615
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:13.039
Shoots and that was pretty mind blowing.
616
00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:16.640
Yeah, yeah, it was. Well, the Shoots has been so
617
00:31:16.759 --> 00:31:21.240
up and down with with water flows and temperatures and
618
00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:22.880
stuff the last few years, but last year was a
619
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:23.319
great year.
620
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:26.279
We all I was, you know, Pad Cook was there,
621
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:28.880
his friend of grocer, and we're doing it again this summer.
622
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:32.680
And you know, it's just a wild environment, right, It
623
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:35.519
just doesn't look like any other river. All those rivers.
624
00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:37.680
When I was describing the north ump good to my wife,
625
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:40.319
I said, I swear if a forty foot dragon swam
626
00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:41.880
by me, I'd be like, totally fits it.
627
00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:44.240
Right, or a hobbit was across from you.
628
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:48.400
Exactly exactly it felt. It felt like that in the shoots,
629
00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:51.079
you know, I means, are just the coolest things in
630
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:51.839
the world, right.
631
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:55.799
Yeah. The the reason I love the coastal rivers out
632
00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:58.559
there is I always laughed that if you came around
633
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:00.119
the corner, it was a brono source and the the
634
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:03.759
river wouldn't surprise you. I mean, you're walking through ferns
635
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:07.880
that are like head high and stuff. And my last
636
00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:12.200
day out there, just two weeks ago, I was the
637
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:16.039
only day I fished completely alone, and about halfway through
638
00:32:16.039 --> 00:32:18.839
the day, I thought my kids would kill me if
639
00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:23.079
they knew what I was doing right now, and myself. Yeah,
640
00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:24.839
my buddy Lee asked me a few years ago if
641
00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:27.359
I wasn't too old to be doing that alone, and
642
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:30.319
I said why, And he said, well, does anybody know
643
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:33.160
you're out there? And I'm like, oh, so I started.
644
00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:36.799
I started subscribing at Global Rescue so I can pull
645
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:39.720
out my garment and call in the reinforcements if I
646
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:44.519
need them. But that's, uh, that's just where I feel
647
00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:45.480
totally lit.
648
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:50.319
It's it's but you know, the thing is, so the
649
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:53.200
Delaware is big enough. There are sections of the crowded,
650
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:54.759
but where I fish and I'm off and the only
651
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:57.680
person I've floated and not seen any other people. Right,
652
00:32:57.759 --> 00:32:59.839
It's a big river and covers a lot of ground
653
00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:02.839
as actually you're willing to explore it in off hours
654
00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:06.440
and off times. But I've also noticed, like if you
655
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:09.240
go to like the west branch of the Delaware, super crowded,
656
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:11.599
it just is there's a ton of fit rising fish.
657
00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:14.400
It's my least favorite. But there have been times where
658
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:16.480
I just saw the one fish I was and worked
659
00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:20.079
on him for three hours. Yeah maybe got him, maybe didn't.
660
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:23.319
And it's like every other human being on the planet
661
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:26.359
completely disappeared because I'm in this like you know, little
662
00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:29.680
chess game with this nineteen inch brown trout. Like what
663
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:31.759
idiot's going to spend three hours trying to get a
664
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:35.039
nineteen inch brown chout to eat his you know, sulfur
665
00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:37.440
and you know, on a hot August day. But that
666
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:38.400
to me is awesome.
667
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:44.839
Yeah, yeah, it's it's funny because I was obsessed with
668
00:33:44.920 --> 00:33:49.640
it up through late twenties and then life kind of
669
00:33:49.640 --> 00:33:55.799
went south. Fishing, Yeah, yeah, I started fishing the Great
670
00:33:55.880 --> 00:33:58.200
Lakes trips when I was in college and it was
671
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:03.519
pretty ugly and I had two friends. I and two
672
00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:07.480
friends had a interaction with the guy who threatened us
673
00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:11.199
with a gun, and I just thought, I think this
674
00:34:11.320 --> 00:34:14.519
is silly and also the thing you find.
675
00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:18.679
For experience getting mugged on stream, like I've been mugged
676
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:20.679
in real life, but it's not supposed to happen in
677
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:21.519
a trout.
678
00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:24.079
Stream exactly well, and this guy had We used to
679
00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:27.159
swing for kings by just throwing huge bully boggers at
680
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:30.079
him and he would just swing it at him in
681
00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:32.599
front of in a pool where they would drift back
682
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:34.559
and drift back and they'd either hit it or they'd leave.
683
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:37.440
And this guy, this guy waded out my line and
684
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:41.039
threw a trouble hook in and missed him and it
685
00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:44.800
was all pissy and kicked through him and my friend,
686
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:49.880
who was not a big guy, went ape shit and
687
00:34:50.599 --> 00:34:54.079
we grabbed him before it got physical. But this guy
688
00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:56.159
turned around and opened up his jacket and had his
689
00:34:56.199 --> 00:34:58.480
big three fifty seven there, and I just thought a
690
00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:02.360
fishing and then the other problem to run into when
691
00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:05.599
fisher getting hammered like that, they're not hitting a a
692
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:08.679
swung fly. And I had grown up in the West
693
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:12.679
and you know, reading about swinging flies even single hand.
694
00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:14.480
And there was no way I was going to bobber
695
00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:16.719
fish for steelhead. There was no way I was fishing
696
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:17.800
glowbugs for steelhead.
697
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:18.719
It's just like.
698
00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:24.679
Neverne And at the same time, during that era, I
699
00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:29.840
nipped the crap out of trout. But I I think
700
00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:32.239
probably because of my childhood, now I got started steelhead.
701
00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:36.039
We're always in a an upper plane. It's a little
702
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:38.639
bit like my son and I have this ongoing conversation
703
00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:44.920
about what is art and because I don't have like
704
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:47.760
a classic art background, to me, art was something that
705
00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:51.960
occasionally you might achieve. Or my son went through a
706
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:54.480
pretty good art program and he says, if someone made it,
707
00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:58.960
its art right, whether it's quality art or not, doesn't matter.
708
00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:02.320
But and that is changed my thinking about art, but
709
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:04.519
not necessarily about steelhead.
710
00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:09.000
I mean, like, like you don't you don't fly fish
711
00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:11.920
because it's practical, right, So none of us are fishing
712
00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:12.679
for food.
713
00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:14.960
Or because it's easy or because.
714
00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:16.719
It's easy, right, So they're like we were talking about before,
715
00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:19.840
there's all these self imposed limitations. You're just do fish.
716
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:22.039
You know, you want to catch the fish how you
717
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:26.039
want to catch the fish, right, Like, so you do
718
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:29.119
end up getting into the Delaware things sort of where
719
00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:31.320
it shines is it's you know, one of the great
720
00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:33.800
sort of techi dry fly rivers in the world, right,
721
00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:36.679
and the fish are very big in you know, a
722
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:40.199
twenty inch brown trout's relatively common on the Delaware and
723
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:42.039
if you catch one in a dry fly, that's really
724
00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:44.880
a lot of fun and it's really challenging. What I
725
00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:47.199
will say about the spae thing is so I just
726
00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:49.400
basically waited around for hatches or if the water is
727
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:52.519
blown out, I throw streamers from a boat, right, which
728
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:55.800
is fun too and a good way to catch big fish.
729
00:36:56.199 --> 00:37:00.840
But when I started messing around the spee rod so a,
730
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:04.960
it permits you to fish all these off hours where
731
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:08.800
they're no bugs hatching, right, you don't have to nimb fish,
732
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:12.880
and it permits you to fish preposterously high water where
733
00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:14.760
people say it's dangerous to go, but you can just
734
00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:16.960
stand on the bank. That's been some of the best fishing.
735
00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:18.880
And I fished through the winter. I couldn't do it
736
00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:20.920
this year because it was frozen. But some of my
737
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:23.760
best fishing has been December, January and February. And you
738
00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:26.679
know how cold that isn't the catskills it's ridiculous. But
739
00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:29.880
the fish fight hard, they're aggressive. You know all the
740
00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:35.239
cliches about them being like, you know, low metabolism and
741
00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:38.079
like LOGI not at all. That hasn't been my experience.
742
00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:41.760
Well, and what's the because Delvar's tailwater, so.
743
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:44.199
It is, but by the time you get to the
744
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:46.760
main stem, so you have the east branch of the
745
00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:49.440
West Branch, which spill out from the West branch about
746
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:51.840
seventeen miles till it gets to the main stem, and
747
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:53.760
the east branch is about thirty and the east branch
748
00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:57.360
is small for its upper part, so the tailwater, the
749
00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:00.079
influence of the tailwater peters out when it hits the
750
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:02.719
main send, maybe goes down for five miles down by me,
751
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:08.039
it's borderline irrelevant unless they're unless they're releasing so much water.
752
00:38:08.119 --> 00:38:10.840
You know, I will see the Delaware go from fifty
753
00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:14.440
thousand cfs to two thousand cfs in a matter of
754
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:16.440
like a week and a half. That's how volatile it
755
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:19.559
could be. You know, the highest ever got was a
756
00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:21.760
flood of one hundred and twenty five thousand cfs, which
757
00:38:21.800 --> 00:38:25.880
is frightening. But there's a peninsula outside my house in
758
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:29.440
an inlet. That thing is entirely submerging. There's water halfway.
759
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:29.920
Up the maples.
760
00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:32.760
You know, It's just it's that kind of environment. But
761
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:35.280
the thing I've realized with the spay thing is so
762
00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:38.320
first of all, you're fishing water that, you know, shallow
763
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:42.199
riffles or frog water that I would normally ignore unless
764
00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:45.239
I say, a rising fish. And brown trout tend to
765
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:48.119
hug the banks. But when you spavefish, you realize, well,
766
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:50.320
not all of them, some of them are actually in
767
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:52.360
the middle of the river. People don't throw streamers in
768
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:54.639
the middle of the river. They pound the banks for
769
00:38:54.679 --> 00:38:58.280
brown trout, not for rainbows. Rainbows don't particularly like streamers
770
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:01.280
on the Delaware, but a big off tackle they will hammer.
771
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:04.599
And then the winter, so what what road are you
772
00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:08.039
fishing there? So I've had I have a lot of
773
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:11.440
trout spay rods, now I had, I had two through five.
774
00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:14.639
I found that two was during COVID. We lived in
775
00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:16.679
Maine for a little while at a family member's house
776
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:20.440
because New York sucked, and my kids are out of school.
777
00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:23.559
Because my oldest uh works works in Manhattan and lives
778
00:39:23.559 --> 00:39:25.960
on Long Island. And when I'm driving down there, I
779
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:28.760
can't imagine the hell that was during COVID.
780
00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:30.440
It was awful. I mean, there were these you know,
781
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:33.880
temporary borgs set up and it was and plus remember
782
00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:36.559
in the beginning, you know, you're wiping down your doorknob
783
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:39.199
with like alcohol swabs and you just sort of So
784
00:39:39.559 --> 00:39:41.719
we had a family member with an empty house Maine,
785
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:44.880
so and we were all I was working remotely and
786
00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:47.920
and my daughters were taking school remotely. My wife was
787
00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:50.960
working remotely. So I used the two weight up there
788
00:39:50.960 --> 00:39:54.039
because there are a lot of little streams up in Maine.
789
00:39:54.280 --> 00:39:56.800
But in general on the dell are like a four weight,
790
00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:59.360
sometimes a fish a three weight with soft tackle, and
791
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:02.800
then I prefer the longer ones. I prefer twelve feet
792
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:05.400
twelve and spare. It feels more like a spare rod well,
793
00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:09.280
and it's a lot of water. Delaware is huge, right,
794
00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:11.360
but even in the beaver Kill, which is another really
795
00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:13.880
excellent space. I caught a really nice fish last week
796
00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:16.760
into the beaver Kill and dropped another one or two.
797
00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:21.440
It's you know, even the beaver kill might be you know,
798
00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:23.920
one hundred and fifty feet wide, two hundred feet wide,
799
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:27.079
and there's plenty of water that's way too deep to wade,
800
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:30.119
and you just the space anyway, it's just fun. That's
801
00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:35.320
it's swinging flies for trout is not is not even
802
00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:38.079
close to the most high percentage way to catch that.
803
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:42.199
It's actually pretty. You don't go out and spank fish, right,
804
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:43.960
but you get these little windows where you get some
805
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:47.119
grabs and you get some great fish, and but it's
806
00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:49.920
just that it's like a different approach. You cover so
807
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:53.039
much water, you know, you don't even think about fishing
808
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:55.280
from a boat. Right. You start here, you go there,
809
00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:58.760
You walk miles and miles, you walk up and down
810
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:01.159
train tracks and rip and there's just all kinds of
811
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:06.079
stuff and I just found fish in such unlikely places.
812
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:09.880
So and that it's funny. I think I've I know
813
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:12.159
I've talked about this with friends. I can't remember if
814
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:14.679
I talked about it here or not. A few years ago,
815
00:41:15.159 --> 00:41:17.280
the coldest day of fishing I ever had in Oregon,
816
00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:23.679
the day after Christmas, I went fishing with my friends
817
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:28.039
Rob Perkin and Josh Lynn and we're in the sandy
818
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:31.239
and the ramp was closed at the park because it's
819
00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:33.000
too icy, and so we had to float a much
820
00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:37.480
longer stretch and it's it's freezing cold, and Josh, Josh
821
00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:40.039
guides the sandy. He knows it really well. He says, oh,
822
00:41:40.119 --> 00:41:43.719
a run only. So we're floating over stuff that I'm like,
823
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:46.440
this looks pretty a run to me. And I finally
824
00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:50.119
asked why we're not fishing. You'd have to know. Josh
825
00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:52.480
to know gives me the stink guy and says, I
826
00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:55.760
told you a run only. And so I finally said, I,
827
00:41:56.840 --> 00:42:01.840
I don't understand. This isn't it? And it finally occurred
828
00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:05.039
to me the difference between a walk in and a
829
00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:08.800
float angler. If you walk in, you fish what's in
830
00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:16.000
front of you, and I enjoy that it doesn't. And
831
00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:18.239
part of that is because because I'm old, I've been
832
00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:22.400
fishing forever. I've got a bunch of fish, and if
833
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:24.119
I catch a fish, I love it. But if I
834
00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:26.039
don't catch a fish, I still have a great day.
835
00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:29.800
And so I've got a point where if I walk
836
00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:32.239
into a place and it's it's maybe what somebody who
837
00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:34.000
knows the river well and is in a boat would
838
00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:36.840
call sea level water. But I fished the crap out
839
00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:38.880
of it, and I find a fish. I had a
840
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:43.000
great day, and I find trout spells. Yeah, I found
841
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:45.920
Trout's play like that that you're not looking for it.
842
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:49.159
You know, a fifteen fish day that you might expect
843
00:42:49.159 --> 00:42:53.719
of your thrown drives, but you're looking for that spot's
844
00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:55.960
always kind of intrigued me, and that the water level
845
00:42:56.039 --> 00:42:57.920
is good. I'm going to throw a dozen casts through
846
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:00.559
there and see what my swing does and play with it.
847
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:02.960
And once in a while that pays off.
848
00:43:03.880 --> 00:43:07.480
You know. So that's that is one hundred percent true.
849
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:11.800
The Delaware is not a fifteen fish day under maybe
850
00:43:11.800 --> 00:43:13.519
if you nimp it, but you know, drive flies, you're
851
00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:15.880
looking for a couple of good fish. You know, maybe
852
00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:16.119
it can.
853
00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:18.079
I think it's more like the eastern Henry's Fork.
854
00:43:19.239 --> 00:43:21.679
It is, it is, It might end, but it's there
855
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:24.599
are fewer fish and they might on average actually bigger
856
00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:27.320
in the Delaware. So like the Missouri is a technical river,
857
00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:30.239
but you stand on a bridge and there are or
858
00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:32.519
you see pods of you know, one hundred fish rising.
859
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:34.159
It just doesn't happen on the Delaware, but you know,
860
00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:36.159
if you're fish it enough, you start to know. But
861
00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:39.320
what I've noticed with the drought spay thing is is
862
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:42.639
depending on water levels, there are spots where like, until
863
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:44.559
I get to that tree with the overhanging limb, it's
864
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:46.360
going to kind of suck. It doesn't mean I've ever
865
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:49.280
caught a fish above it, but like nine times out
866
00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:51.559
of ten, even though I try the water above it,
867
00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:53.880
I always start to catch them at that spot. So
868
00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:56.400
there's obviously something in the topography. But that's only if
869
00:43:56.440 --> 00:43:59.119
it's running twenty five hundred. If it's five grand, they're
870
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:01.039
going to be a little farther down river, tuck behind
871
00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:03.440
those boulders. That was one of the interesting things in
872
00:44:03.559 --> 00:44:09.039
fishing the shoots with Barrett, because I've done some DIY trips,
873
00:44:09.079 --> 00:44:10.760
Like I've gone to the clearwater a few times, and
874
00:44:10.840 --> 00:44:13.280
there's so much access on the clear water. You know,
875
00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:15.679
it's and it is, so much of it looks good.
876
00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:19.159
So we fished and we caught some fish, you know,
877
00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:21.840
just stumbling around. My friend's a better spade fisherman than
878
00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:24.760
I am, but you know, we're looking for these long
879
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:27.880
runs where you can just swing forever. Barrett was so
880
00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:29.480
structure oriented.
881
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:32.320
Oh my god, yes, you know, and he knows, and
882
00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:33.400
he knows that river so.
883
00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:37.360
Well, and is is you know his calls were so
884
00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:40.159
often correct. He'd drop you off and then you go fish.
885
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:42.079
You know you wouldn't see him. And they say, but
886
00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:44.000
when you get above that boulder, you know you're gonna
887
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:45.639
hold it out, let it marin ap below the boulder.
888
00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:47.360
And I'm saying, like fifty feet till there. You know,
889
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:49.920
you might get banged in there and then whammo. And
890
00:44:49.960 --> 00:44:52.519
I'm just thinking, you know, I mean, one thing he
891
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.760
pointed out to me, which is interesting, is the because
892
00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:58.840
of the all that bedrock, you know, the the bottom
893
00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:01.719
of a river, like the dishe it doesn't change it,
894
00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:05.679
it's pretty fixed. The bottom of your typical Northeastern freestone
895
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:10.440
changes quite a bit. I mean, sometimes it's dramatic, sometimes
896
00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:13.559
it's not. But there's so much ice. There's such you know,
897
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:16.880
fluctuations and flows and sometimes like that gravel bar is
898
00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:22.239
totally different this year, and it affects, it affects where
899
00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:25.280
they are. But I guess it's just like I have
900
00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:27.559
so many pet drive fly spots my friends and I
901
00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:29.920
have worked on and then with the spare rout was like, oh,
902
00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:32.000
I guess that's a new pet spot of mine because
903
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:35.519
I've now caught fish twice there, so I'm a conquering hero.
904
00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:38.679
I've figured it out right, you know, like what a
905
00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:41.000
wizk it I am?
906
00:45:41.559 --> 00:45:45.840
It is. It is funny both the two guys I mention,
907
00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:50.519
Rob and Josh both know they're rivers, that they fish
908
00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:54.519
really well, but they're also just really fishy people. And
909
00:45:55.559 --> 00:45:59.039
it's funny. I liken it to canoe tripping that I
910
00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:01.920
got into in my toies that my brother in law
911
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:04.679
and I just got really into it, and we didn't
912
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:08.239
want to go unguided trips. We'd never even considered it.
913
00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:11.599
We wanted to develop a skill set and then go
914
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:15.039
on our own. And I always approached fishing that same way.
915
00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:18.920
And it's not until I got older that I realized
916
00:46:19.639 --> 00:46:22.840
I can't possibly learn all these rivers.
917
00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:28.239
Well that's the thing, right, Like I think, you know
918
00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:32.239
so so trout fishing, striper fishing. You know, I mostly
919
00:46:32.280 --> 00:46:33.760
just figured out. My mother in law used to live
920
00:46:33.800 --> 00:46:35.519
on Cape Cod. I lived in Boston for a while,
921
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:37.360
so there are plenty of beaches and you know, you
922
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:39.440
just roam them and you see the fish swirling, or
923
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:41.840
you find the buck the little buckets and dvids in
924
00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:44.119
the water and you find them. Or I fish in
925
00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:46.239
New York City a lot. So I have friends who
926
00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:49.320
know every rock in New York Harver because they're older
927
00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:51.000
than I am. They fish with their dad for the
928
00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:54.760
last sixty years from the same boat. But what was
929
00:46:56.320 --> 00:46:58.639
But if I were to go tackle the lower to
930
00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:01.760
shoots like I might, we did. We fished on our own.
931
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:05.239
Some Pat caught one and Joe, my friend, I don't
932
00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:07.280
even think I got to grab but you know, we
933
00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:11.000
stumbled into him. But like having a guy who just
934
00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:13.800
sort of knows that set of boulders really is pretty consistent,
935
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:16.119
you know, when you only have six days to do it.
936
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:19.960
If I lived out there, maybe I would think, well different, that's.
937
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:22.599
Things I My first trip out there was when I
938
00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:24.719
turned fifty, and I've been dreaming of it since I
939
00:47:24.760 --> 00:47:31.000
was like twelve and read about it. The stream and shangle. Yeah,
940
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:36.320
and it coincided with the return of There was a
941
00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:38.760
court order to spill water over the dams in the
942
00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:44.559
spring two years before to enhance the outgoing small and
943
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:48.119
that year it felt like every place I thought there
944
00:47:48.119 --> 00:47:51.519
should be a steelhead. There was a steelhead and it
945
00:47:51.559 --> 00:47:51.880
was just.
946
00:47:51.880 --> 00:47:54.440
Magical, and that was on your own, just poking around.
947
00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:57.639
Yeah yeah, and then I get back out there. I
948
00:47:57.679 --> 00:47:59.760
moved back out several years later and it's.
949
00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:04.480
Not like that, of course not. He had that anxiety
950
00:48:04.519 --> 00:48:05.920
that is not going to be as good this year
951
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:08.599
as it was last year. But I think I'll survive regardless.
952
00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:13.400
Oh yeah. So my steel at Mantra peaceful heart, no
953
00:48:13.480 --> 00:48:18.159
expectation exactly, go to enjoy the fishing, and if a
954
00:48:18.199 --> 00:48:21.679
fish shows up, you're ecstatic, but you enjoy the fishing anyway.
955
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:24.440
So We're gonna take a quick break and then I'm
956
00:48:24.440 --> 00:48:28.320
going to ask you about a certain run. Patrick Lukaba
957
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:31.079
of J Moon Bamboo Rods is located down in southern
958
00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:34.719
Oregon along the Rogue River in Grant's Pass. That's where
959
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:37.239
you spent the last several years developing tapers for three
960
00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:39.760
bamboos Bay Rods. He builds a light ten foot eight
961
00:48:39.800 --> 00:48:42.719
four weight Trouts Bay, a sweet eleven foot six six
962
00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:45.239
weight summer steel and rod, and the one I liked
963
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:48.440
call Little Thunder, his eleven foot eight weight Coastal Special.
964
00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:50.400
They're all hollow built and have what I love in
965
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:53.079
a spey rod, a stiff tip and junk in the trunk.
966
00:48:53.800 --> 00:48:56.239
He also builds a powerful eight foot six weight single
967
00:48:56.280 --> 00:48:58.199
hand rod for those of you might want to take
968
00:48:58.199 --> 00:48:59.960
a two and a break and throw a big drive
969
00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:02.840
or streamers. Just my mouthbugs. Patty can be found at
970
00:49:02.920 --> 00:49:07.239
Jaymoonworks dot com that works with an ex jay moonworks
971
00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:14.159
dot com. Okay, so we're back, and I got a
972
00:49:14.199 --> 00:49:17.280
very specific spot that Johnny neither he or I know
973
00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:22.000
the name of. But if at about well, I don't
974
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:23.440
know the time of day, but it's just as the
975
00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:27.039
sun is h dropping it into the run into shade,
976
00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:31.920
you look back up stream and the silhouette on the
977
00:49:31.960 --> 00:49:34.840
bend on the ridge above you is Aretha Franklin.
978
00:49:35.719 --> 00:49:38.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about about.
979
00:49:38.519 --> 00:49:41.159
It's phenomenal, and I think we have a photograph of it.
980
00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:43.960
I turned around and I said to Barrett, why don't
981
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.840
you guys call this Aretha's And he said, what I'm
982
00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:50.079
a look, he goes, shit, I never noticed that. I'm like,
983
00:49:50.360 --> 00:49:52.320
I'm out of a music GUYE. How do you miss that?
984
00:49:53.800 --> 00:49:55.239
Standing respect?
985
00:49:55.639 --> 00:50:00.599
Yeah exactly. So, So okay, at the we were talking,
986
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:04.039
I already forgot we were talking about. Oh yeah, So
987
00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:09.440
I was a fly time fiend from like age eight
988
00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:16.360
till twenty when I transferred colleges and started painting. And
989
00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:21.079
I have like an overwhelming I would say desire, but
990
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:25.480
it's more like a need to make shit. I kind
991
00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:28.719
of there's a whole bunch of my work that is
992
00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:31.320
based on what I think. It was a more primitive
993
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:35.920
exploration of humanity that I think there were those of
994
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:43.559
us in ancient times who made stuff and it needs
995
00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:45.719
to I could build decks for a living and probably
996
00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:49.199
be happy it didn't work out that way. I ended
997
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:53.159
up finding I could. At a really tough time in life,
998
00:50:53.239 --> 00:50:54.920
I found out I could pay my bills with painting,
999
00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:58.079
and I've been doing it since, but it has also
1000
00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:01.119
crushed my fly time. Actually trying to get back into
1001
00:51:01.199 --> 00:51:06.079
it now. But between music and fly time, you got
1002
00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:07.119
them both going full bore.
1003
00:51:08.440 --> 00:51:10.760
Yeah, well, I'll tell you something, you know. So I've
1004
00:51:10.800 --> 00:51:13.400
been time fly since I was little, And I think
1005
00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:16.559
the first time I went to Montana was and I
1006
00:51:16.599 --> 00:51:18.440
was tying a lot of flies for friends, maybe like
1007
00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:21.440
ninety one. A remember a guy said, well you I
1008
00:51:21.440 --> 00:51:23.840
don't remember it's tie for shop or a guide service.
1009
00:51:24.119 --> 00:51:27.559
But then he said, so what I need is like
1010
00:51:27.559 --> 00:51:32.119
like twenty dozen size eighteen parachute atoms. And I literally thought,
1011
00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:34.880
that's like a death sentence study, like to sit there
1012
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:37.840
and tie, because that's not how I don't tie the
1013
00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:41.360
same pattern two times over. And so, for instance, if
1014
00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:43.719
I'm tying drive flies, and let's say you're time for
1015
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:47.599
particular bug isinikia sulfur and make everyone a little different
1016
00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:50.440
because you have to experiment some days and.
1017
00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:53.760
It keeps you from like having your brain belt.
1018
00:51:53.400 --> 00:51:57.480
And exactly, so I remember, so you know, I just
1019
00:51:57.599 --> 00:52:00.000
learned from books, right, because I learned this stuff pre Internet,
1020
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.159
but I became you know, I don't know how much
1021
00:52:02.199 --> 00:52:04.719
you were. There was a very famous saltwater fly tire
1022
00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:07.840
who was sort of my mentor named Bob popovicx Bob
1023
00:52:08.519 --> 00:52:11.039
Bob sort of a legend in the Northeast.
1024
00:52:10.639 --> 00:52:12.760
And yeah, the houlifies and all kinds.
1025
00:52:12.639 --> 00:52:15.119
Of stuff, exactly, And Lefty Kraate, for whom I used
1026
00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:17.679
to tie flies, actually told me Bob is the greatest
1027
00:52:17.679 --> 00:52:21.800
flytire in history. Right, he said that, like without qualification
1028
00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:24.280
fresh or salt onter. So Bob kind of took me
1029
00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:25.960
under his wing. He taught me a lot of stuff.
1030
00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:29.079
We used to go fishing together, and he said, yeah,
1031
00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:31.159
if you give a class, you can charge money. He said,
1032
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:33.800
but if you're charging money for the flies you tie,
1033
00:52:33.880 --> 00:52:36.840
you're going to start to hate it. And I know
1034
00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:39.960
what he meant, because so you take holowflies or squid flies,
1035
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:43.920
those are involved things, right, those are not two minute flies. Yeah,
1036
00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:46.719
to tie them repeatedly like takes all the joy out
1037
00:52:46.719 --> 00:52:49.400
of tinkering with it. Right. So yeah, I might tie
1038
00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:52.679
two flies and I two two sardina flies or two
1039
00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:55.199
steelhead muddlers, But this one's going to have a different
1040
00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:58.679
maribou collar and this one's gonna have Oh, I'm mixing Amherst.
1041
00:52:58.880 --> 00:52:59.039
You know.
1042
00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:01.760
I just you don't want to do the thing the
1043
00:53:01.800 --> 00:53:04.159
same way. So what I found the best accommodation for
1044
00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:08.039
me was, you know, it was I don't remember when
1045
00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:10.440
they officially all the fly companies started having you know,
1046
00:53:10.599 --> 00:53:13.840
so called signature royalty tires. But a friend of mine
1047
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:16.480
who's another fishing author, a guy named Henry Collen, who
1048
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:18.679
was a guy like in the Northeast who lives in
1049
00:53:18.679 --> 00:53:22.079
Atlanta now, he hooked me up with orbs like twenty
1050
00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:26.000
years ago and Orbis wanted to have like a signature period,
1051
00:53:26.039 --> 00:53:28.000
so I would license my flies and then you just
1052
00:53:28.039 --> 00:53:30.360
give them a few samples and they produce them and
1053
00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:33.280
you get some royalties, and then they were purchased by
1054
00:53:33.320 --> 00:53:35.960
Fulling Mill. And for the last five years I've been
1055
00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:38.880
with Rheo, which only introduced flies about five or six
1056
00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:42.719
years ago. But it's great because they're very open minded
1057
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:46.719
there and my obligation is to come up with the pattern,
1058
00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:50.719
send them a few samples and instructions, right, so then
1059
00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:53.639
get a little income. I love the real folks, as
1060
00:53:53.679 --> 00:53:56.039
I mentioned Jim who founded the company. You know, I've
1061
00:53:56.039 --> 00:53:58.559
been friends with people there for years and years, although
1062
00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:01.719
a lot of them have retired or out, and it's
1063
00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:04.119
a great way to remain involved, you know, in sort
1064
00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:05.760
of a quasi I don't know, I guess you call
1065
00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:10.880
it professional capacity. And it's not about getting free stuff
1066
00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:15.239
and discounts, because like that always kind of bummed me out,
1067
00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:17.079
Like people want to be on this pro staff, and
1068
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:20.039
I like, who cares, right like you just I you know,
1069
00:54:20.360 --> 00:54:22.920
I just like the people that I've encountered through doing this.
1070
00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:26.000
And so there's that like whole trade show scene and
1071
00:54:26.800 --> 00:54:29.000
it's like a fun community, and you know, we're all
1072
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:30.760
like a bunch of dorks, right.
1073
00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:33.400
So all of it is it is Nerdville.
1074
00:54:33.960 --> 00:54:36.679
So my, there's a guy that if you hang around
1075
00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:39.199
the Catskills you will come to know. His name is
1076
00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:44.800
David Nelson's. He sells a fly timeish. Yeah. Look, he
1077
00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:47.280
was one of my original guys, like which he's my
1078
00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:51.239
main fishing buddy, right, so so I mean he and
1079
00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:53.800
I have been speaking like fourteen times. He's like my
1080
00:54:53.840 --> 00:54:58.239
fishing wife about like the most preposterous fly tying stuff.
1081
00:54:58.320 --> 00:55:00.440
Or you know, we were talking about Bruce Berry and
1082
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:01.800
you talk Bruce.
1083
00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:06.039
Phenomenal, right, so you know, and a gun on a.
1084
00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:09.559
Fly rod unbelievable, right, But Bruce is such a fly
1085
00:55:09.719 --> 00:55:11.360
time nerd. So I might talk to him two or
1086
00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:13.719
three times a year, but those are always these marathon
1087
00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:16.679
conversations like no, no, no, no, no, sorry. I don't like
1088
00:55:16.719 --> 00:55:20.199
the Vivis twelve. I just it's too flat and flossy
1089
00:55:20.239 --> 00:55:22.920
for me. I like the bonded threads like no, no, no, Johnny.
1090
00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:25.960
And then I think like, oh, like we are the
1091
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:30.320
biggest losers on the planet, like listen to us. It's
1092
00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:32.119
like no, no, no, apossum. You know, if you put
1093
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:35.360
in a dubbing American apostum, it stands proud, but you
1094
00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:37.280
gotta you gotta wrap a mallard in front of it.
1095
00:55:37.559 --> 00:55:41.079
It's just as if there's it's the utter, utter foolishness
1096
00:55:41.119 --> 00:55:43.519
of it that makes it so there's nothing at stake,
1097
00:55:43.639 --> 00:55:44.360
right other.
1098
00:55:44.199 --> 00:55:46.760
Than yeah, it's just it's just a rabbit hole to
1099
00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:48.480
you down it exactly.
1100
00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:51.400
And and but you know, every sometimes I wake up
1101
00:55:51.440 --> 00:55:53.079
in the middle of the night, I'm like, oh my god,
1102
00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:57.639
so there's all the I have a mayfly pattern called
1103
00:55:57.639 --> 00:56:00.760
the wedge wing done right. I really woke up in
1104
00:56:00.760 --> 00:56:02.480
the middle of the night once and I said, I
1105
00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:04.360
have now figured out how to do this thing I've
1106
00:56:04.360 --> 00:56:06.639
been trying for thirty years to do just as a
1107
00:56:06.679 --> 00:56:09.719
way of affixing a wing. But that was like one
1108
00:56:09.800 --> 00:56:11.400
of the saddest thing in all But that was like
1109
00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:15.199
one of my highlights, right, Like I conquered this little
1110
00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:17.079
thing that was gnawing at me for thirty Yeah.
1111
00:56:17.199 --> 00:56:19.639
Is that the one with the you split the stem or?
1112
00:56:19.719 --> 00:56:20.719
Is that one.
1113
00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:24.559
That that's a split spell? That's that's no what so
1114
00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:27.119
I mean, if you really want a nerd out on
1115
00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:31.280
this so you know what a so you know the right,
1116
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:33.599
so you know what a mayfly's body and adults may
1117
00:56:33.679 --> 00:56:35.840
flies looks like, right, and it's got the sort of
1118
00:56:35.880 --> 00:56:39.199
like sailboat wings. Those wings are in line with the body.
1119
00:56:39.199 --> 00:56:43.480
In other words, they're not perpendicular. So your typical comparadon right,
1120
00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:48.280
you know what, right, it's it's perpendicular trout nerd for
1121
00:56:49.639 --> 00:56:52.599
so comparadne as Gary Lafontaine said, is it totally? It
1122
00:56:52.639 --> 00:56:55.639
works great, but it's an absurd imitation. It's literally the wings.
1123
00:56:56.039 --> 00:56:58.360
Then you have a parachute. But you know, mayfly wings
1124
00:56:58.360 --> 00:57:01.679
aren't like a little cylindrical host with you know whatever.
1125
00:57:01.719 --> 00:57:04.519
It is twelve hundred legs to Canton. So for years
1126
00:57:04.599 --> 00:57:06.400
I tried to figure out how do I get the
1127
00:57:06.519 --> 00:57:10.480
mayfly wing in line with the body? Certa of the
1128
00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:12.239
way like an elk care Cata says, the cat.
1129
00:57:12.199 --> 00:57:15.079
Is wing and so without spinning your tippet.
1130
00:57:15.760 --> 00:57:19.679
Yeah, so it's very hard to describe, but basically you
1131
00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:23.159
make the body. I usually just do the thread body
1132
00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:24.880
because I try to keep it really skinny. I don't
1133
00:57:24.880 --> 00:57:27.440
even dub it get to the thorax tine a hackle
1134
00:57:27.639 --> 00:57:30.639
dub the thorax. Don't wrap it. Tie in deer hair,
1135
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:35.199
CDC fibers, whatever at the front of the thorax. Peel
1136
00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:38.400
back a quarter of whatever the wing material is. Bind
1137
00:57:38.440 --> 00:57:41.280
it with one hackle, wrap peel down the next one.
1138
00:57:41.320 --> 00:57:44.199
Bind it with one apple reck. So you are binding
1139
00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:46.599
the wing material across the top of the thorax with
1140
00:57:46.719 --> 00:57:49.920
successive and because you've got the hackle, it props it
1141
00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:51.679
up at a forty five degree angle and you make
1142
00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:53.280
it too long, and then you trim it with scissors.
1143
00:57:53.559 --> 00:57:55.320
So when I throw that sucker out there in the
1144
00:57:55.400 --> 00:57:59.559
Hendrickson hatch, it's actually almost impossible to tell from the
1145
00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:01.800
real thing. That's one of the difficulties of it, because
1146
00:58:02.079 --> 00:58:04.360
it's got that link. And for me that's worked very well.
1147
00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:06.079
But is this essential?
1148
00:58:06.199 --> 00:58:06.280
No?
1149
00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:08.840
Should this have been like a great revelation where you
1150
00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:11.679
know my heart is pounding and yes, you know, like
1151
00:58:11.960 --> 00:58:16.400
this is my Sistine chapel. It's like a goddamn mayply ivitation.
1152
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:18.400
But that's like what's fun about this?
1153
00:58:18.599 --> 00:58:27.159
Right? You know? That's actually with I was lamenting with
1154
00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:33.280
some friends not too long ago that oh it's Thanksgiving
1155
00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:39.079
fifty almost fifty years ago. My little brother and my
1156
00:58:39.159 --> 00:58:42.760
dad were having this really heated argument political My little
1157
00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:45.440
brother was going to law school and wanted to get
1158
00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:49.320
into government work and was always completely tuned in on
1159
00:58:49.719 --> 00:58:55.280
government government policy, and this really heated argument going, and
1160
00:58:55.519 --> 00:58:56.880
he turned to me and said, what do you think?
1161
00:58:57.960 --> 00:59:01.400
And I had just transferred schools so I could take
1162
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:03.199
a drawing class, because the first school was that I
1163
00:59:03.239 --> 00:59:04.920
was a business pager and they wouldn't let me take
1164
00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:08.920
a drawing class. And I'd been through this two semesters.
1165
00:59:08.920 --> 00:59:10.920
And I was taking my first heart history class and
1166
00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:15.719
we got into impressionism and I was floored and I said,
1167
00:59:16.480 --> 00:59:19.400
I don't know what your guys are talking about. And
1168
00:59:19.440 --> 00:59:23.119
he said, you're socio politically irresponsible, and I said I am,
1169
00:59:23.599 --> 00:59:26.440
and the curse has been I've never been since. But
1170
00:59:27.880 --> 00:59:30.480
I said I don't I don't know what to say.
1171
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:32.280
I can't help you. And he goes, what are you
1172
00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:35.079
even thinking about? And I said you really want to know?
1173
00:59:36.280 --> 00:59:38.920
He goes, yeah. I said two things I think about
1174
00:59:39.119 --> 00:59:43.800
almost all the time, impressions, color theory, and how to
1175
00:59:43.800 --> 00:59:45.880
make a climbing loop on my forward cast.
1176
00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:50.639
I literally had this experience with my wife. She like,
1177
00:59:50.679 --> 00:59:52.320
you're not listening to me what do you think of it? Said,
1178
00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:54.000
like I got a little melody in my head, or
1179
00:59:54.639 --> 00:59:58.039
or I should have tried a smaller spinner last night.
1180
00:59:58.159 --> 01:00:01.159
I know I should. She's like just such a loser
1181
01:00:03.159 --> 01:00:05.920
and and you know what, I embrace it proudly.
1182
01:00:06.159 --> 01:00:09.199
So well, let's let's back way up a minute. And
1183
01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:13.199
so you're an attorney too, what kind of law do
1184
01:00:13.239 --> 01:00:13.480
you do?
1185
01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:17.239
So I do intellectual property law, copyright and trademark. I mean,
1186
01:00:17.239 --> 01:00:19.840
I'm a trial attorney, but those are the disputes that
1187
01:00:19.880 --> 01:00:23.119
I handle, copyrights and trademarks. And I've had this on again,
1188
01:00:23.159 --> 01:00:25.000
off again career where I did it part time, I've
1189
01:00:25.039 --> 01:00:28.159
done it full time. I'm full time now, but with
1190
01:00:28.320 --> 01:00:32.760
enough flexibility to fish and play a lot of gigs.
1191
01:00:32.840 --> 01:00:34.280
I mean I had I don't know, three or four
1192
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:37.400
gigs in the last week. Oh cool, I don't sleep.
1193
01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:38.440
I don't sleep a lot.
1194
01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:41.400
How much time does a gig take.
1195
01:00:42.360 --> 01:00:47.400
You know, like everything hours? Yeah, four hours. It used
1196
01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:49.559
to be the gigs, like the gigs when I start out,
1197
01:00:49.639 --> 01:00:53.039
when started ten thirty. There's like that club that was
1198
01:00:53.039 --> 01:00:55.559
ten thirty to three thirty in the morning. But I
1199
01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:59.239
feel like, yeah, but when you're young, I would be
1200
01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:02.440
in the opposite thirty the next morning. But now, you know,
1201
01:01:02.559 --> 01:01:05.400
not to get political, but as sort of as society
1202
01:01:05.480 --> 01:01:07.480
has gone where it is now, the gigs like start
1203
01:01:07.480 --> 01:01:12.199
at seven, six thirty ounce we're flucker and it's less
1204
01:01:12.239 --> 01:01:16.239
of a night outl things some some relate. But over
1205
01:01:16.280 --> 01:01:18.639
in Europe, like Spain, gigs don't start till like twelve
1206
01:01:18.639 --> 01:01:19.239
thirty at night.
1207
01:01:19.800 --> 01:01:24.280
So do you think later is better for the music
1208
01:01:24.760 --> 01:01:25.760
or does it make a difference.
1209
01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:26.559
It doesn't matter.
1210
01:01:26.599 --> 01:01:26.719
You know.
1211
01:01:26.760 --> 01:01:29.360
It's funny because a lot of the clubs are underground
1212
01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:31.599
in New York, Like they're two very famous clubs called
1213
01:01:31.599 --> 01:01:34.760
Smalls in Mesroe. Same thing with the Villas Gray, the Vanguard,
1214
01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:38.480
they're underground. So Smalls, which has been around since ninety four.
1215
01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:40.840
I played on the first gigs there. You sort of
1216
01:01:40.840 --> 01:01:44.000
descend into the catacombs, and he started like the main
1217
01:01:44.039 --> 01:01:46.840
gigs on the weekends. I played weekends there. He started
1218
01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:48.719
having him at six and I said a club owners
1219
01:01:48.760 --> 01:01:51.519
like this is ridiculous. We played there and you know,
1220
01:01:51.559 --> 01:01:53.400
you're you're sitting there and you're set. You might as
1221
01:01:53.440 --> 01:01:55.400
well be three in the morning because there's no light
1222
01:01:55.480 --> 01:01:58.199
coming in from the inside. And once you're doing your thing.
1223
01:01:58.679 --> 01:02:02.280
You now if you're so you're you're walking down the run,
1224
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:05.920
you're completely lost in the river, right you are. You
1225
01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:09.760
have almost no awareness other than just you're there. It's
1226
01:02:09.760 --> 01:02:12.079
the same thing when you're on a bandstand. If it's good,
1227
01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:14.000
if you're thinking about it, like, oh shit, there are
1228
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:15.880
a lot of people here. Nobody show up. That's going
1229
01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:19.639
to suck right then you then you you're self conscious.
1230
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:22.400
But when it's going well, it doesn't matter whether you're
1231
01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:24.559
playing in front of twenty thousand people or no people.
1232
01:02:25.039 --> 01:02:26.920
You have no awareness of it because it's just you
1233
01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:30.480
and the other musicians in this like sort of unspoken conversation.
1234
01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:34.239
So that that quality is very similar to fishing in
1235
01:02:34.320 --> 01:02:37.800
terms of that kind of your focus is entirely contained
1236
01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:41.159
within this little universe you're occupying.
1237
01:02:40.880 --> 01:02:44.639
Well, and it's it's interesting. I've always I've watched music
1238
01:02:44.639 --> 01:02:47.159
from afar because, like I said, I have no ability
1239
01:02:47.199 --> 01:02:52.400
at all, but a small group together seems like the
1240
01:02:52.519 --> 01:02:56.400
ultimate team sport, Like you're thinking the same thoughts together.
1241
01:02:56.880 --> 01:02:59.280
That I mean. And jazz is really that way because
1242
01:02:59.679 --> 01:03:01.960
you know, you have a song structure where you're improvising,
1243
01:03:02.119 --> 01:03:03.239
so you see.
1244
01:03:03.119 --> 01:03:04.760
It's like you guys are a pot of whales.
1245
01:03:05.840 --> 01:03:09.039
Mean you have to be in if you're just taking
1246
01:03:09.079 --> 01:03:11.039
turns like okay, now it's based solo and no, it's
1247
01:03:11.039 --> 01:03:14.039
piano sol andnou's drum solo and outsac solo. It sucks.
1248
01:03:14.840 --> 01:03:18.880
There's every single thing that everyone else plays influences what
1249
01:03:18.960 --> 01:03:23.000
you play. So what it is is the best. It's
1250
01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:26.639
it's a group conversation where you're all speaking at the
1251
01:03:26.679 --> 01:03:31.599
same time, but you're constantly responding to the input that
1252
01:03:32.039 --> 01:03:36.119
influences you're getting from other people. And that's why so
1253
01:03:36.239 --> 01:03:38.360
other musics, like classical musicians, say well, how can you
1254
01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:40.480
do it without sheep music? And I'm like, sheet music
1255
01:03:40.519 --> 01:03:43.719
to me is like prison bars, right, Like that's what
1256
01:03:43.840 --> 01:03:47.400
I don't want. It's it's you improvise. Right. So we
1257
01:03:47.480 --> 01:03:49.880
have some rules of grammar and syntax, we have a
1258
01:03:49.920 --> 01:03:52.519
topic of conversation fishing or art or whatever it is,
1259
01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:55.599
but within that we kind of have unlimited ability to
1260
01:03:56.199 --> 01:03:59.599
go where we go. And that's just exactly.
1261
01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:02.039
What music is in a lot of ways. It's what
1262
01:04:02.079 --> 01:04:04.960
we have just been doing for the last whatever many minutes,
1263
01:04:05.639 --> 01:04:08.039
but with music, and that's the part that is bind b.
1264
01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:12.639
To me, it's just another language, right you could you could.
1265
01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:14.199
I suck it foreign language.
1266
01:04:14.960 --> 01:04:17.119
Well no, but but but but you're you are the
1267
01:04:17.239 --> 01:04:21.760
rambler after all. Right, Like that's.
1268
01:04:20.800 --> 01:04:23.159
My ex used to say, I could drop you any
1269
01:04:23.239 --> 01:04:25.760
place in the world and you have friends in fifteen minutes.
1270
01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:27.760
I'd always say. But the thing is, forget how much
1271
01:04:27.760 --> 01:04:29.599
I suck at language. It would take me forty five.
1272
01:04:30.360 --> 01:04:33.960
But the thing is that, you know, there are musicians
1273
01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:36.960
who are ramblers. There's musicians who are like that person
1274
01:04:36.960 --> 01:04:39.880
who says three things, but they're the most profound things
1275
01:04:39.880 --> 01:04:43.079
you hear all night. There are people who can't can't
1276
01:04:43.079 --> 01:04:46.119
get it out right there, there are people you can't
1277
01:04:46.119 --> 01:04:48.760
stop them. That's the way jazz musicians are, right. I
1278
01:04:49.079 --> 01:04:51.880
know that as a player, I'm a dense player, Like
1279
01:04:52.039 --> 01:04:55.079
I'm just constantly vomiting for this stuff to a fault,
1280
01:04:55.119 --> 01:04:58.320
Like sometimes I need to pull back, but whatever, that's
1281
01:04:59.679 --> 01:05:02.199
that's just what occurs. When I try not to do that,
1282
01:05:02.280 --> 01:05:03.440
it doesn't feel natural.
1283
01:05:03.920 --> 01:05:07.559
So it's probably a little bit like those personality tests
1284
01:05:07.599 --> 01:05:10.360
they give an organizations to help people figure out how
1285
01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:15.159
to get better. Yeah, to find different people you need
1286
01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:18.159
for different tasks. And if you have the right musicians
1287
01:05:18.199 --> 01:05:20.679
with you, that density is going to be a game.
1288
01:05:22.079 --> 01:05:24.559
It is the coolest feeling in the world when you
1289
01:05:24.679 --> 01:05:28.039
have good I played with some musicians at a club
1290
01:05:28.079 --> 01:05:31.360
that had very few people this weekend. But there are people,
1291
01:05:31.480 --> 01:05:33.519
particularly the first couple of nights with whom I have,
1292
01:05:33.679 --> 01:05:35.800
I mean, the drummer I've been playing with since the eighties,
1293
01:05:37.199 --> 01:05:40.639
so I have just like a rapport with them, both
1294
01:05:40.679 --> 01:05:44.880
personally and musically, right bass player, he and I are
1295
01:05:44.920 --> 01:05:49.239
just really good friends, like I I whatever. We think
1296
01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:52.559
in similar ways, even though he plays completely differently than
1297
01:05:52.599 --> 01:05:55.159
I do. So it works. And there's some musicians whom
1298
01:05:55.159 --> 01:05:57.800
I love think they sound great when I play with them,
1299
01:05:57.800 --> 01:06:01.199
I'm like, wow, that just doesn't not really happening, you know.
1300
01:06:01.880 --> 01:06:03.920
Or I'll think like I got to hook that base player,
1301
01:06:03.920 --> 01:06:05.760
that drummer, and they're like, wow, that wasn't what I
1302
01:06:05.800 --> 01:06:08.760
thought it was going to be. And you know, that
1303
01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:10.519
could be just a given night, or that can be.
1304
01:06:11.119 --> 01:06:15.000
People here and see things differently, right even if they're
1305
01:06:15.360 --> 01:06:17.880
even if if they're great at I mean, it's kind
1306
01:06:17.880 --> 01:06:20.559
of interesting, you know, like because historically art always had
1307
01:06:20.559 --> 01:06:23.280
these art school like these schools of artists who kind
1308
01:06:23.280 --> 01:06:25.719
of painted together. There was historic, doesn't I don't even
1309
01:06:25.760 --> 01:06:27.639
know if that culture still exists, right.
1310
01:06:27.480 --> 01:06:30.719
It does, yeah, it does. In fact, it's funny. There's
1311
01:06:31.679 --> 01:06:34.000
I mean, I I look at all of this from
1312
01:06:34.199 --> 01:06:39.239
uh the outfield because I went to a state school
1313
01:06:39.239 --> 01:06:41.880
in New York that's really good for business, right and
1314
01:06:41.880 --> 01:06:42.519
then I.
1315
01:06:42.440 --> 01:06:44.159
Didn't study music at a school either.
1316
01:06:44.400 --> 01:06:46.199
And then and then I stayed for art and it
1317
01:06:46.239 --> 01:06:49.480
had an art program for kids who are taking art
1318
01:06:49.519 --> 01:06:55.039
credits to get their general studies degree. But so I
1319
01:06:55.079 --> 01:06:59.599
don't have like the Yale Harvard Art school background. And
1320
01:06:59.599 --> 01:07:03.000
at the same time, about the time that I faced
1321
01:07:03.039 --> 01:07:05.519
up to the fact that I hate plane air painting,
1322
01:07:05.760 --> 01:07:10.840
painting out on location, which about the time I faced
1323
01:07:10.880 --> 01:07:12.519
up to I hate it, I wasn't going to do anymore.
1324
01:07:12.679 --> 01:07:15.360
It just blew up. And so those are kind of
1325
01:07:15.400 --> 01:07:19.239
two paths now where people built. My dear friend James
1326
01:07:19.280 --> 01:07:22.239
Samsel is a phenomenal plane air painter, and he goes
1327
01:07:22.239 --> 01:07:26.239
to paint outs. They're almost like competitions, which to me
1328
01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:30.519
is about as appealing as competing at fishing. But James
1329
01:07:30.639 --> 01:07:34.280
rises to it and does great at it. I like
1330
01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:36.400
to be alone and not be bothered when I'm painting,
1331
01:07:36.719 --> 01:07:42.400
and my approach is slow and a small six by
1332
01:07:42.440 --> 01:07:45.079
eight inch painting I'm going to work on for eight
1333
01:07:45.119 --> 01:07:48.360
to ten to fifteen different sessions. A big painting I
1334
01:07:48.440 --> 01:07:49.920
might work on for weeks.
1335
01:07:50.440 --> 01:07:53.400
My daughter mentioned that my older daughter, Ceci, as a
1336
01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:57.480
filmmaker and she worked was in her film on an
1337
01:07:57.559 --> 01:08:01.480
art documentary and it did follow yell art school and
1338
01:08:01.519 --> 01:08:04.199
the trajectory of people's careers and the influence of age
1339
01:08:04.280 --> 01:08:07.719
and all the politicking and the influence of gallery owners.
1340
01:08:08.119 --> 01:08:10.440
And it was fascinating, right because it was chronicling a
1341
01:08:10.480 --> 01:08:12.320
whole bunch of talented people. I think they were all,
1342
01:08:12.920 --> 01:08:16.960
but they were so influenced by the sort of business
1343
01:08:17.000 --> 01:08:20.199
and influence, peddling and you know, just getting the right
1344
01:08:21.279 --> 01:08:25.000
the right person behind you. So I just realized, So,
1345
01:08:25.399 --> 01:08:29.239
you know, art is and pristine either, right everything. I
1346
01:08:29.239 --> 01:08:32.359
had an art history professor in college and I was
1347
01:08:32.399 --> 01:08:34.039
friends with her. She was cool. She had like a
1348
01:08:34.079 --> 01:08:36.239
punk haircut and walked around in a long T shirt
1349
01:08:36.439 --> 01:08:39.039
and the big and and she told me that Peggy
1350
01:08:39.079 --> 01:08:43.279
Gugenheim had slept with like all of the like I
1351
01:08:43.279 --> 01:08:45.520
don't know, it was like you know of Jackson Pollock
1352
01:08:45.520 --> 01:08:47.880
and Robert Rauschenberg and everybody. I was like, how did
1353
01:08:47.920 --> 01:08:51.239
she manage to sleep with all of these famous painters?
1354
01:08:51.520 --> 01:08:53.640
And her response was why do you think they're all
1355
01:08:53.720 --> 01:08:57.239
famous painters? Right? In other words, because she was like
1356
01:08:57.479 --> 01:08:59.039
she was like the stommaker. I don't know if I'm
1357
01:08:59.039 --> 01:09:01.520
getting the art, but it was people around that era,
1358
01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:03.680
you know, but it was a rich patron of the
1359
01:09:03.760 --> 01:09:05.359
arts who could kind of put you on the mat.
1360
01:09:06.000 --> 01:09:07.279
So it's very disillusioning to me.
1361
01:09:07.399 --> 01:09:09.880
There's there's a fascinating book called The twelve Million Dollar
1362
01:09:09.920 --> 01:09:15.119
Shark and it's written by an economists about that crazy
1363
01:09:15.159 --> 01:09:20.000
high end art world and let me blanking on his name,
1364
01:09:20.840 --> 01:09:21.920
the guy that is crazy.
1365
01:09:21.960 --> 01:09:24.199
When I learned about it from this documentary, it's.
1366
01:09:24.079 --> 01:09:27.199
Just yeah, because that's that's what it talks about. It
1367
01:09:27.199 --> 01:09:31.960
it's more about finance than it is about art. And
1368
01:09:32.399 --> 01:09:36.960
I still even after for me, it's been a mad hustle.
1369
01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:40.439
It started out to get my kids through school and
1370
01:09:40.479 --> 01:09:46.840
then it ended up being permanent. But I'm at that
1371
01:09:46.920 --> 01:09:49.199
point now where I'm kind of trying to reinvent things.
1372
01:09:49.960 --> 01:09:55.600
So instead of doing four more, I don't paint four
1373
01:09:55.640 --> 01:09:59.319
of the same, but I could make my living off
1374
01:09:59.319 --> 01:10:02.600
of Red Barn and that is the last That's just
1375
01:10:02.680 --> 01:10:04.439
the last thing I want to make my living off of.
1376
01:10:04.479 --> 01:10:07.840
It sounds like atoms.
1377
01:10:07.880 --> 01:10:12.600
It's exactly what or maybe sixty dozen The kiss of death.
1378
01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:17.479
Yeah, it just sucks the life one it.
1379
01:10:17.880 --> 01:10:20.760
Yeah, so you know, And what you're really supposed to
1380
01:10:20.800 --> 01:10:24.319
do is specialize. And I finally, after I was sick,
1381
01:10:25.439 --> 01:10:26.880
I just thought, I have all these other things I
1382
01:10:26.880 --> 01:10:29.399
want to do. If I just specialize in this one thing,
1383
01:10:29.439 --> 01:10:30.960
I'm never going to do it. So just do all
1384
01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:32.960
the things you want to do. So I actually have
1385
01:10:33.279 --> 01:10:38.359
four bodies of work now and started printmaking about eight
1386
01:10:38.439 --> 01:10:40.960
nine years ago that I'm super excited about. And I
1387
01:10:41.000 --> 01:10:42.760
don't know where it's going. I don't know where any
1388
01:10:42.800 --> 01:10:43.239
of it's going.
1389
01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:48.800
Be pretty liberating after feeling down to yeah, so's there's
1390
01:10:48.840 --> 01:10:51.239
a guy who there's you know, the Northeast has a
1391
01:10:51.239 --> 01:10:54.359
couple of really well known fly shops, and I'm friends
1392
01:10:54.399 --> 01:10:56.640
with all the owners because i'll do time demos Adams.
1393
01:10:56.640 --> 01:11:01.239
There's one in Connecticut called the Complete Anglert and what
1394
01:11:01.640 --> 01:11:06.279
yeah so yes, yeah, yeah, so he's doing so you know,
1395
01:11:06.359 --> 01:11:09.159
and they have some of his to me. They're not
1396
01:11:09.199 --> 01:11:12.039
lifting raps. What do you call the wood cuts? Woodcuts?
1397
01:11:12.239 --> 01:11:15.079
That's actually how we met, was was doing woodcuts.
1398
01:11:15.319 --> 01:11:18.680
Great, great guy, he's just he's so fun. He's also like,
1399
01:11:18.720 --> 01:11:21.319
you know, one of the few sort of spay like
1400
01:11:21.920 --> 01:11:25.680
Emma grays to the East coast, right like like if.
1401
01:11:25.600 --> 01:11:27.920
I remember he's from Maine originally.
1402
01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:29.760
He is, but then he lived out he worked at
1403
01:11:29.800 --> 01:11:35.039
that flag shop. While yeah, yeah, and no, we're friends
1404
01:11:35.039 --> 01:11:38.279
and we had striper fish. He's gonna come up with catskills,
1405
01:11:38.640 --> 01:11:43.239
but but his, with his it's such a niche thing, right.
1406
01:11:43.279 --> 01:11:46.239
Doing the woodcuts too, it's a similar thing with it's
1407
01:11:46.239 --> 01:11:48.319
sort of like what you're describing. You know, you're choosing
1408
01:11:48.359 --> 01:11:50.359
this sort of limitation of what you're going to do.
1409
01:11:50.479 --> 01:11:52.560
It's because it's just what you want to do, right,
1410
01:11:52.880 --> 01:11:56.680
and it's it's that's what that's what's so appealing about it.
1411
01:11:56.680 --> 01:11:59.560
There's no pragmatic reason to do it other than for
1412
01:11:59.680 --> 01:12:03.319
it's to you or it expresses whatever your deal is.
1413
01:12:03.840 --> 01:12:07.079
Well, it's funny, it's so much of my life has
1414
01:12:07.119 --> 01:12:13.720
been driven by the very I can still remember seeing
1415
01:12:14.760 --> 01:12:18.239
Ted true Blood and Kirk Gouty fly fishing for Atlantic
1416
01:12:18.239 --> 01:12:20.119
salmon on the American sports when when I was about
1417
01:12:20.159 --> 01:12:22.720
eight and I realized the rod that I had, that
1418
01:12:22.800 --> 01:12:25.760
had been my mom's, that my uncle gave to my
1419
01:12:25.800 --> 01:12:30.079
mom when she was I think three or four. I'm
1420
01:12:30.159 --> 01:12:33.880
hoping she was going to be his fishing buddy, became mine.
1421
01:12:33.880 --> 01:12:35.680
And I realized it was a fly rod and I
1422
01:12:35.680 --> 01:12:37.520
should be able to make the line loop like that,
1423
01:12:38.479 --> 01:12:40.800
And that was I've been obsessed ever.
1424
01:12:40.640 --> 01:12:45.680
Since, especially since you know, somebody can get instruction now
1425
01:12:45.720 --> 01:12:48.520
or see a YouTube video. But I fly fished, I
1426
01:12:48.560 --> 01:12:50.680
think for five or six years before I ever actually
1427
01:12:50.800 --> 01:12:53.640
saw one someone cast a fly rod. I'd seen pictures
1428
01:12:53.640 --> 01:12:57.359
and books and I read swishers, Richard's books, I read
1429
01:12:57.399 --> 01:13:00.119
some Tom Rosenbauer books. And a little bit later and
1430
01:13:00.199 --> 01:13:02.119
I was fishing and I saw a guy casting and
1431
01:13:02.159 --> 01:13:03.720
it was getting out there. I was like, oh, it's
1432
01:13:03.760 --> 01:13:07.800
not it's not perfect, right, Like I'm seeing these these drawings,
1433
01:13:07.800 --> 01:13:10.600
are these side views, but yeah, like the line wobbles
1434
01:13:10.600 --> 01:13:13.079
a little bit in the air, not everything is perfect,
1435
01:13:13.399 --> 01:13:16.000
but he's still getting it out there, and and that
1436
01:13:16.119 --> 01:13:18.520
was so demystifying for me, and I was like, screw it,
1437
01:13:18.600 --> 01:13:20.439
Like if I can get it forty feet out there,
1438
01:13:20.439 --> 01:13:22.800
I'm gonna catch it out and so I did. So
1439
01:13:22.840 --> 01:13:25.199
I had to see that it was an imperfect process
1440
01:13:25.520 --> 01:13:27.439
till I got it's.
1441
01:13:27.119 --> 01:13:30.319
Funny because I saw Kurt Gouty and Ted drew Or.
1442
01:13:30.560 --> 01:13:36.399
I said that true. Ted Williams, you have a blood fly. Yeah, probably.
1443
01:13:38.119 --> 01:13:40.479
Yeah. Somebody gave me a tender boods on a double hook.
1444
01:13:41.359 --> 01:13:42.159
Oh that's awesome.
1445
01:13:42.479 --> 01:13:43.520
Yeah.
1446
01:13:43.720 --> 01:13:47.840
But uh, the thing that really helped me was Oorvis
1447
01:13:47.840 --> 01:13:52.399
came out with a book and it was like, okay,
1448
01:13:52.520 --> 01:13:55.760
I'm doing it again, holding up my hands for diagram.
1449
01:13:55.920 --> 01:14:00.119
Then none of you can see, but Johnny can. It
1450
01:14:00.159 --> 01:14:04.079
was probably out if you can tell this to my head.
1451
01:14:04.199 --> 01:14:06.960
Good sized book and I had great black and white
1452
01:14:07.279 --> 01:14:10.520
photographs of the guy that was their first fly fishing
1453
01:14:10.560 --> 01:14:15.119
school instructor casting, and I could see the shape of
1454
01:14:15.159 --> 01:14:18.560
the loops and I just practiced in my side yard
1455
01:14:18.640 --> 01:14:21.159
until I could figure out how to make the loops
1456
01:14:21.680 --> 01:14:25.439
shape like that. And I never That's why I'm the
1457
01:14:25.439 --> 01:14:28.359
world's worst instructor for flycasting, because I don't know how
1458
01:14:28.359 --> 01:14:31.840
to talk about it. I make a different skill.
1459
01:14:32.359 --> 01:14:34.439
Yeah, but so that's a little bit the way. So
1460
01:14:34.479 --> 01:14:36.479
I think I've been trying to cast a spare ride
1461
01:14:36.479 --> 01:14:39.039
anown since about twenty seventeen, but I've yet to have
1462
01:14:39.079 --> 01:14:42.199
a lesson. I have friends who are good space casters,
1463
01:14:42.239 --> 01:14:45.439
like Andrew Moy's real good caster, you know, Bruce and stuff,
1464
01:14:45.439 --> 01:14:47.119
but I've never had a lesson, and I'm sure I
1465
01:14:47.119 --> 01:14:50.079
would benefit from it. But it's kind of fun scoing around,
1466
01:14:50.119 --> 01:14:52.159
you know. I can watch some YouTube videos and now
1467
01:14:52.199 --> 01:14:54.720
I have some friends who do it. Like the thing
1468
01:14:54.760 --> 01:14:56.039
that battle's a great caster.
1469
01:14:57.000 --> 01:14:58.680
The thing that made all the difference for me was
1470
01:14:58.720 --> 01:15:01.880
to put single hand rod down because every time I
1471
01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:04.359
went back and went bass fishing for an evening, hit
1472
01:15:04.399 --> 01:15:06.840
wrecked my space casting because my top handed in the way. Again.
1473
01:15:07.399 --> 01:15:10.640
Yeah, I'm not I'm not past that point. I'm still
1474
01:15:10.640 --> 01:15:14.199
I'm still there. But somehow I've stumbled into some spake
1475
01:15:14.319 --> 01:15:15.640
casts that have landed some fish.
1476
01:15:15.680 --> 01:15:18.199
So as long as you're having fun.
1477
01:15:19.520 --> 01:15:21.520
I want to get. You know. What I'm finding is
1478
01:15:21.600 --> 01:15:24.760
though that you know I got, I sort of like
1479
01:15:24.880 --> 01:15:27.079
reached my limit on how much tackle I need. But
1480
01:15:27.119 --> 01:15:29.880
then I discovered spare rods. So not only do you
1481
01:15:29.920 --> 01:15:34.600
need a million spare rods and cool reels, but particularly
1482
01:15:34.640 --> 01:15:36.840
like the line thing is, it's the same thing with
1483
01:15:36.920 --> 01:15:40.279
single handed right, but you know, like, oh, what's this
1484
01:15:40.439 --> 01:15:43.000
gale force thing, or like, oh, here's an old school
1485
01:15:43.039 --> 01:15:46.800
scandy compact or I really love the way that that's.
1486
01:15:46.680 --> 01:15:48.640
Also known as best scandy ever.
1487
01:15:49.760 --> 01:15:53.359
And and but I mean, you know, and and and
1488
01:15:53.399 --> 01:15:57.159
then but you know, right now, every good rod I drive,
1489
01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:00.000
a good maker I think is really good. This one's fast,
1490
01:16:00.159 --> 01:16:03.640
this one slow. But they're all cool to me because
1491
01:16:03.680 --> 01:16:05.319
I sort of sit there and think, like, okay, so
1492
01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:06.920
with this one, you kind of got to do it
1493
01:16:06.920 --> 01:16:09.439
this way. So it's a little faster and tippier, and
1494
01:16:09.439 --> 01:16:11.880
this one's a little slower, and I have no idea
1495
01:16:11.920 --> 01:16:15.359
what I'm doing. But and so I had these moments
1496
01:16:15.399 --> 01:16:17.399
where I'm like, wow, I'm getting pretty good, and then
1497
01:16:17.399 --> 01:16:19.520
I have the complete meltdown where I'm lucky to get
1498
01:16:19.560 --> 01:16:21.479
it actually to land in front of me instead of
1499
01:16:21.520 --> 01:16:25.319
like in my ear or something. But it's it's like,
1500
01:16:25.520 --> 01:16:27.239
but it's sort of like learning a new way to
1501
01:16:27.239 --> 01:16:29.560
fly fish. So it's just unbelievably cool to me.
1502
01:16:29.880 --> 01:16:34.520
Oh that's me. It completely rejuvenated me. I had been
1503
01:16:34.560 --> 01:16:37.039
one when I was in college. I worked in a
1504
01:16:37.039 --> 01:16:41.239
fly shard kind of ran it because Doug Reed that
1505
01:16:41.319 --> 01:16:46.479
ike or West oh back in New York. Yeah yeah, yeah,
1506
01:16:48.119 --> 01:16:49.640
it was the Arvist shop in Rochester.
1507
01:16:50.279 --> 01:16:50.880
Oh yeah yeah.
1508
01:16:51.079 --> 01:16:53.960
The guy that owned the shop in Buffalo, Doug Read.
1509
01:16:54.399 --> 01:16:56.720
His son Bill works at Orvis up in Vermont, now
1510
01:16:57.479 --> 01:17:01.079
opened a shop in pittsfor New York on the Canal.
1511
01:17:01.720 --> 01:17:04.880
And I had just come back from work in construction
1512
01:17:04.960 --> 01:17:07.239
for the summer and pretty much had college paid for.
1513
01:17:08.600 --> 01:17:10.760
But I grew up in a family where you're obsessed
1514
01:17:10.760 --> 01:17:12.439
with working all the time, so I had to have
1515
01:17:12.479 --> 01:17:14.920
a job. And I heard there's a fly shop, and
1516
01:17:15.000 --> 01:17:17.359
I just pestered him till it gave me a job.
1517
01:17:18.199 --> 01:17:22.199
And it at the time, there's I can never remember
1518
01:17:22.199 --> 01:17:26.119
the name of the book. There was an Englishman who
1519
01:17:26.199 --> 01:17:29.279
had a lodge and Todd Spake cast to get these
1520
01:17:29.319 --> 01:17:31.960
big steel forms that you would stand up against and
1521
01:17:31.960 --> 01:17:34.640
they wrapped around you, and that you would take a
1522
01:17:34.640 --> 01:17:36.960
piece of closet rod or a dowel or something and
1523
01:17:37.079 --> 01:17:39.680
run through these form to learn. And I was obsessed
1524
01:17:39.680 --> 01:17:41.880
with flycasting and I wanted to learn how to do that,
1525
01:17:42.359 --> 01:17:44.079
and I never got a chance till I was like,
1526
01:17:44.920 --> 01:17:48.920
I think thirty eight or something. And from that moment on,
1527
01:17:49.359 --> 01:17:54.399
it's been. That's I have a pile of nice single
1528
01:17:54.479 --> 01:17:57.239
and rocks, and I still love single and flycast, but
1529
01:17:57.279 --> 01:17:58.279
I would rather spay cast.
1530
01:17:59.199 --> 01:18:02.880
Telling you, if if if we all your spine up
1531
01:18:03.920 --> 01:18:07.640
uh but to the Delaware and we find a big
1532
01:18:07.720 --> 01:18:09.760
bank feeding brown drought, and you sit there and you
1533
01:18:09.800 --> 01:18:13.000
watch it, you would not be able to risk resist
1534
01:18:13.119 --> 01:18:14.720
trying to catch that fish.
1535
01:18:14.880 --> 01:18:19.560
I have been in Yellowstone with the great rags coming off,
1536
01:18:19.960 --> 01:18:23.319
fish rising everywhere, and I swung a sculping through right
1537
01:18:23.359 --> 01:18:23.720
through it.
1538
01:18:24.199 --> 01:18:26.720
That's that's. You know, people on the hell for stuff
1539
01:18:26.720 --> 01:18:29.680
like that, like you will you when you face the
1540
01:18:29.720 --> 01:18:32.359
pearly gates there, they're sending you over to door number
1541
01:18:32.359 --> 01:18:35.039
two like that might that might be okay, my friend
1542
01:18:36.039 --> 01:18:37.760
is more fun, right, you'll be you'll be going.
1543
01:18:37.600 --> 01:18:40.159
To door number one. Showed your big twenty two inches
1544
01:18:40.399 --> 01:18:43.119
Delaware brown and all said you look over go, oh wait,
1545
01:18:43.119 --> 01:18:45.159
there's really good bunch of guys over there.
1546
01:18:45.640 --> 01:18:48.439
Except you'll you'll all be snagging, you know, with slinky
1547
01:18:48.520 --> 01:18:49.720
ring slinky rags.
1548
01:18:49.760 --> 01:18:52.359
You know, no, no no, but then we'll we'll hear
1549
01:18:52.399 --> 01:18:54.720
the music coming from door number on work oh ship,
1550
01:18:54.800 --> 01:18:55.720
then we need to go over there.
1551
01:18:56.119 --> 01:18:59.119
That's the cool one I'm telling you. So yeah, it's
1552
01:18:59.239 --> 01:19:02.760
just it's it's it's really fun to try like something
1553
01:19:02.800 --> 01:19:06.039
that is so different and that you know, and also
1554
01:19:06.319 --> 01:19:08.920
you have the ability, at least at my stage where
1555
01:19:08.960 --> 01:19:12.560
like you can in your rate of improvement is really fast,
1556
01:19:12.680 --> 01:19:16.159
right like you know, like like between last year and
1557
01:19:16.199 --> 01:19:19.520
this year and the year that follows. So it's kind
1558
01:19:19.520 --> 01:19:21.439
of cool to be there rather than to feel like
1559
01:19:21.479 --> 01:19:24.560
I'm permanently plateaued. A is the mediocre single handed castro
1560
01:19:24.680 --> 01:19:25.159
that I am.
1561
01:19:25.880 --> 01:19:29.600
And you said you had enough rods bamboo.
1562
01:19:30.479 --> 01:19:32.800
No, no, no, I haven't. I haven't gone down there. I've
1563
01:19:32.840 --> 01:19:36.399
heard you extolled the praises of bamboo.
1564
01:19:35.359 --> 01:19:37.439
Well single hand too.
1565
01:19:38.079 --> 01:19:40.680
I actually kind of like fast rods, but especially in
1566
01:19:40.680 --> 01:19:42.239
the Delawares big water and.
1567
01:19:42.199 --> 01:19:44.560
My god, you're thinking old bamboo.
1568
01:19:45.399 --> 01:19:48.239
Yeah, no, I know, I know, it's you know, I don't.
1569
01:19:48.399 --> 01:19:51.439
I actually just bought a bell reel from Todd Reditas,
1570
01:19:51.720 --> 01:19:54.720
so so that's that's kind of But my spare rods
1571
01:19:54.760 --> 01:19:57.520
have all you know, they're I mean, I'm associated with
1572
01:19:57.560 --> 01:20:01.039
far Bank obviously because of the fly thing. But you know,
1573
01:20:01.119 --> 01:20:03.880
I have some knobs and I have some bulahs and
1574
01:20:03.399 --> 01:20:05.680
and I and I love them, and I'm sure i'd
1575
01:20:05.680 --> 01:20:09.399
love a bunch of other rods too, And but you know,
1576
01:20:09.439 --> 01:20:11.560
it's fun to know that people we are associated with
1577
01:20:11.600 --> 01:20:15.479
these press and that's actually very that's a very Spanish
1578
01:20:15.520 --> 01:20:19.800
thing for sure, like the worship of the boutique, you.
1579
01:20:19.760 --> 01:20:24.520
Know, right well, except that that's also My first rod
1580
01:20:24.640 --> 01:20:27.720
was an old Horks. It's some seven and a half
1581
01:20:27.800 --> 01:20:31.119
or eight and a half foot. It's a seven or
1582
01:20:31.239 --> 01:20:34.920
eight weight and I actually just read I rewrapped it
1583
01:20:34.960 --> 01:20:39.239
and revarnished it a couple of years ago. But because
1584
01:20:39.239 --> 01:20:41.479
that was actually kind of shocked. It's I put it
1585
01:20:41.520 --> 01:20:43.319
together like five years ago and was shocked. That's got
1586
01:20:43.359 --> 01:20:44.800
a decent action, but it's not too slow.
1587
01:20:45.199 --> 01:20:48.159
It's really fun to try old rods. Even I went
1588
01:20:48.279 --> 01:20:50.399
back and tried that seven And you know, did you
1589
01:20:50.399 --> 01:20:52.560
ever have the seven and a half foot five weight
1590
01:20:52.640 --> 01:20:54.560
brown Fenwick fiberglass rods?
1591
01:20:54.760 --> 01:20:57.439
I actually have a blanke and building out. I built
1592
01:20:57.479 --> 01:20:58.319
my sister one.
1593
01:20:58.680 --> 01:21:00.680
So I visited a friend a little while ago. But
1594
01:21:00.720 --> 01:21:02.159
I visited a friend of mine in the cap we're
1595
01:21:02.159 --> 01:21:03.640
gonna go striper fishing, but in the middle of the
1596
01:21:03.720 --> 01:21:05.800
day there's no striper fishing, so we fished the ponds
1597
01:21:06.239 --> 01:21:07.880
and he had one, and I was like, God, this
1598
01:21:07.960 --> 01:21:11.000
thing is really fun, right, like this this thing has
1599
01:21:11.039 --> 01:21:13.640
like such a nice past. It's way heavy and you know,
1600
01:21:13.840 --> 01:21:15.920
like a seven and a half foot five weight is
1601
01:21:15.960 --> 01:21:19.039
not something that you know, I haven't fished a less
1602
01:21:19.039 --> 01:21:22.239
than a nine foot five nine foot rod on the
1603
01:21:22.239 --> 01:21:26.960
Delaware probably almost in thirty years. But it was really
1604
01:21:27.000 --> 01:21:29.600
fun to do it. I'm sure, you know, maybe I'll
1605
01:21:29.640 --> 01:21:31.840
get with the bamboo thing, like I don't need another
1606
01:21:31.880 --> 01:21:34.039
obsession now. Now, I just want to try every line
1607
01:21:34.079 --> 01:21:36.479
that's ever made, you know, by you know.
1608
01:21:36.600 --> 01:21:39.319
And I'm like, well, and I think I'm going to
1609
01:21:39.359 --> 01:21:44.319
see you at Patrick's gig in a few weeks with
1610
01:21:44.359 --> 01:21:44.880
this spade.
1611
01:21:46.279 --> 01:21:47.880
Yeah, this baby, Yeah, I think I'm going to be
1612
01:21:47.920 --> 01:21:49.840
tying at that and I'm.
1613
01:21:49.640 --> 01:21:51.720
Gonna I'm going to bring a single hand for you
1614
01:21:51.720 --> 01:21:52.279
to play with.
1615
01:21:52.720 --> 01:21:53.840
A single hand bamboo.
1616
01:21:53.920 --> 01:21:54.119
Yeah.
1617
01:21:54.119 --> 01:21:59.039
Well, the clientele has some bamboo and glass people because
1618
01:22:00.239 --> 01:22:02.479
there the other fly shops are sort of more typical
1619
01:22:02.560 --> 01:22:05.159
modern fly shops up there. There aren't so many left anymore,
1620
01:22:05.239 --> 01:22:08.359
some of them the guys retired, but they still have
1621
01:22:08.439 --> 01:22:11.960
the connection to like the sort of historical roots of
1622
01:22:12.000 --> 01:22:13.680
fly fishing, catskill.
1623
01:22:13.479 --> 01:22:16.800
Fish fishing museum and stuff. They have the builders get together.
1624
01:22:16.520 --> 01:22:19.600
And is a great fly tire. One of his colleagues
1625
01:22:19.640 --> 01:22:22.479
there is sort of a he's in the deady tradition.
1626
01:22:22.560 --> 01:22:24.880
He ties traditional cat skill flies like which I don't.
1627
01:22:25.359 --> 01:22:28.239
I don't tire fish. They're great, but I just personally don't.
1628
01:22:28.720 --> 01:22:31.560
But there are guys there and there will be tires there.
1629
01:22:31.600 --> 01:22:33.199
I think Teddy Palin's going to do it. He ties
1630
01:22:33.239 --> 01:22:37.399
great salmon flies. Yeah, it'll be fun. So that Yeah,
1631
01:22:37.439 --> 01:22:40.359
that's in uh is that June sixth and seventh something
1632
01:22:40.359 --> 01:22:40.680
like that?
1633
01:22:40.960 --> 01:22:41.279
Yeah.
1634
01:22:41.720 --> 01:22:44.000
The cat skills you know, there are all these subcultures
1635
01:22:44.000 --> 01:22:46.159
and fishing, I can tell from listening to your podcast
1636
01:22:46.680 --> 01:22:48.960
is a very good reflection of the sort of Pacific
1637
01:22:49.079 --> 01:22:52.199
Northwest space culture. There's like a whole cat skills thing.
1638
01:22:52.239 --> 01:22:54.720
There's a whole thing, and you know the keys thing.
1639
01:22:54.760 --> 01:22:58.680
It's like its own like counter culture subculture thing too.
1640
01:22:59.039 --> 01:23:03.239
The striper the striper crowd is it's funny when you
1641
01:23:03.279 --> 01:23:05.800
tie flies at these shows and let's say you're sitting there,
1642
01:23:05.880 --> 01:23:08.239
your noses right up to your vice and you're saying this,
1643
01:23:08.399 --> 01:23:12.000
really could you know, like this sell fur mergers killer.
1644
01:23:12.079 --> 01:23:14.159
You know, you can't get them a guy to be like,
1645
01:23:14.199 --> 01:23:17.239
I'm really looking for like a seven inch bunka can
1646
01:23:17.279 --> 01:23:19.439
you give me a seven inch you know? Like that's
1647
01:23:19.479 --> 01:23:21.920
that's the northeast. But the Northeast is right place to fish.
1648
01:23:21.960 --> 01:23:23.199
There's a lot of stuff to chase.
1649
01:23:23.479 --> 01:23:28.840
Oh yeah, yeah, it's it's actually funny if if you're flexible,
1650
01:23:30.079 --> 01:23:31.600
you can fish almost anywhere.
1651
01:23:32.960 --> 01:23:34.680
I mean, that's the thing is right, Like I don't
1652
01:23:34.680 --> 01:23:38.880
really you know, there are great trout streams and all
1653
01:23:38.960 --> 01:23:41.720
kinds of random places. They're you know, they're in West Virginia.
1654
01:23:41.800 --> 01:23:44.880
Tennessee has great tailwaters, right, it's not I fish some
1655
01:23:44.960 --> 01:23:48.359
really obscure places, big rivers in Wyoming that had some
1656
01:23:48.359 --> 01:23:50.840
of the best trout spay fishing I've ever had. But
1657
01:23:50.880 --> 01:23:53.840
they're not rivers you've necessarily heard of. I mean there's
1658
01:23:53.920 --> 01:23:55.600
just there's there's a lot of stuff in the whole.
1659
01:23:55.680 --> 01:23:59.079
The salt is like, you know, another world if you
1660
01:23:59.199 --> 01:24:02.359
like the small mount thing. I would say small mouth
1661
01:24:02.600 --> 01:24:06.640
takes swung flies more readily than trout too, Like yeah.
1662
01:24:07.560 --> 01:24:10.279
You love if you're working to fly a little bit
1663
01:24:10.479 --> 01:24:12.239
and you're in front of a small mouth, it's probably
1664
01:24:12.279 --> 01:24:12.680
gonna hit.
1665
01:24:13.039 --> 01:24:16.199
They love a straight swung fly. Behind my house. You
1666
01:24:16.239 --> 01:24:18.600
could catch them all day long swinging fly. They're not
1667
01:24:18.640 --> 01:24:20.079
all that big, but you might every so often get
1668
01:24:20.079 --> 01:24:22.760
a sixteen seventeen incher and you catch a lot of
1669
01:24:22.760 --> 01:24:25.640
ten and twelve inch fish. But they just love swan fly,
1670
01:24:25.760 --> 01:24:28.520
sodo shad, shad.
1671
01:24:28.600 --> 01:24:32.239
Yet I was bumming out in Portland. My buddy Nick
1672
01:24:32.279 --> 01:24:37.600
Wheeler is from northern California originally and loves shad fishing,
1673
01:24:38.000 --> 01:24:39.880
and we talked for years about getting off together, and
1674
01:24:39.880 --> 01:24:40.479
I never did.
1675
01:24:41.000 --> 01:24:42.960
Well, they're big, you know, they're big, and they're strong.
1676
01:24:43.000 --> 01:24:45.560
I mean there's American shed and hickory shed. Delaware has
1677
01:24:45.640 --> 01:24:48.119
big shed. I will say, you hook them and you
1678
01:24:48.159 --> 01:24:50.960
feel this jolt and you see this flash of silver,
1679
01:24:51.000 --> 01:24:53.159
and you think you've hoped a giant trout, but you
1680
01:24:53.199 --> 01:24:56.560
can pretty quickly tell that they're not. They don't fight
1681
01:24:56.600 --> 01:24:59.840
the same. The trout in the Delaware hit your backing
1682
01:25:00.399 --> 01:25:04.119
pretty readily. I had one takeout, oh yeah, yeah, even
1683
01:25:04.199 --> 01:25:06.399
like a fifteen inch er in the spring. They get
1684
01:25:06.439 --> 01:25:09.479
in the current and and on my spare out. I
1685
01:25:09.520 --> 01:25:13.239
think I had one takeout shooting head the same tip
1686
01:25:13.319 --> 01:25:15.600
one hundred feet a running line at least four times,
1687
01:25:15.640 --> 01:25:17.199
got it back on the real line on the own,
1688
01:25:17.359 --> 01:25:20.079
take it out four times, so you know it's not
1689
01:25:20.199 --> 01:25:20.600
steal it.
1690
01:25:20.680 --> 01:25:24.600
But it is funny that I really think you're fighting
1691
01:25:24.600 --> 01:25:27.319
the river. If you have good flow, you need a
1692
01:25:27.359 --> 01:25:28.479
whole different rod than if you.
1693
01:25:28.439 --> 01:25:32.439
Have But Delaware fish are particularly lit up, more than
1694
01:25:32.479 --> 01:25:34.279
most of the fish I've caught out west. They're strong.
1695
01:25:34.319 --> 01:25:36.479
On the Missouri there's strong. I saw my backing some
1696
01:25:36.560 --> 01:25:38.239
of the medisone. I mean, I've heard people say I've
1697
01:25:38.279 --> 01:25:40.880
never seen my back hand a drought. You cannot fish
1698
01:25:40.920 --> 01:25:43.640
the Delaware and nazie your back at some point. You know,
1699
01:25:43.680 --> 01:25:46.880
what I caught a lot of last year unwittingly, was
1700
01:25:47.279 --> 01:25:51.680
a lot of walleye on the swing, totally weird and
1701
01:25:51.720 --> 01:25:54.439
you see this golden flash like and then they give
1702
01:25:54.520 --> 01:25:55.319
up it stantly and.
1703
01:25:55.319 --> 01:25:59.479
You're like, yeah, they're excited catch.
1704
01:26:00.199 --> 01:26:02.640
No they aren't, but they're but they're a native fish
1705
01:26:02.680 --> 01:26:03.760
and they're kind of cold, so.
1706
01:26:03.920 --> 01:26:07.880
You know, you know, way up on the Missanabi River
1707
01:26:08.119 --> 01:26:12.560
up in Canada, thirty some years ago, I was on
1708
01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:14.520
the canoe trip and I was the only person with
1709
01:26:14.520 --> 01:26:18.119
a fly rod, but I caught northern pike, small mouth,
1710
01:26:18.159 --> 01:26:20.840
and walleye all on top water bass bugs.
1711
01:26:20.880 --> 01:26:21.560
That's the best.
1712
01:26:21.800 --> 01:26:22.680
It was really fun.
1713
01:26:23.079 --> 01:26:26.319
I think are really fun to fish for with paupers.
1714
01:26:26.319 --> 01:26:28.359
And the Northeast doesn't have the great ice. We used
1715
01:26:28.399 --> 01:26:31.119
to fish the Boner, the complete angler, and I used
1716
01:26:31.119 --> 01:26:35.399
to fish the Satonic every Sunday morning with poppers and
1717
01:26:35.479 --> 01:26:38.880
big kind of saltwatery bugs. And the thing is these
1718
01:26:38.880 --> 01:26:41.279
were not particularly big pike. They might be eight pounds,
1719
01:26:41.239 --> 01:26:44.399
a big one ten pounds, but in Connecticut, the contacts
1720
01:26:44.399 --> 01:26:47.600
made it like these were these exotic invaders. Right. Like
1721
01:26:47.640 --> 01:26:50.319
I said, I caught a snakehead on a popper in
1722
01:26:50.319 --> 01:26:53.880
my backyard with pauper. As far as I know, I'm
1723
01:26:53.920 --> 01:26:58.520
the only person in the trouting zone national record. I
1724
01:26:58.600 --> 01:27:01.840
might have the international record. I couldn't. I couldn't release them.
1725
01:27:01.840 --> 01:27:03.960
You're supposed to kill them because they're invasive, but you're
1726
01:27:03.960 --> 01:27:05.399
sitting there in flip flops, like, what are you going
1727
01:27:05.439 --> 01:27:08.159
to do? Stop it to death? So and and if
1728
01:27:08.159 --> 01:27:10.199
you've ever caught a bluefish, you know they chomp down
1729
01:27:10.239 --> 01:27:12.399
on a popper. You can't get the ookut of their mouth.
1730
01:27:12.479 --> 01:27:13.960
So that was the way it was. The snake and
1731
01:27:14.000 --> 01:27:16.359
they're incredibly powerful. So the thing was like two feet
1732
01:27:16.439 --> 01:27:19.760
long and and I couldn't get the I had to break.
1733
01:27:19.880 --> 01:27:22.520
I had to break my ten pound maximum because I couldn't.
1734
01:27:22.800 --> 01:27:26.680
He would not open his jaws. So you're supposed to
1735
01:27:26.800 --> 01:27:29.520
kill them because they're invasive, but I don't really like
1736
01:27:29.600 --> 01:27:34.840
killing stuff very much. And so you know, you never
1737
01:27:34.880 --> 01:27:37.720
had it was cool. I'm glad you have done it once.
1738
01:27:37.960 --> 01:27:38.159
You know.
1739
01:27:38.239 --> 01:27:39.600
It's not like I'm gonna.
1740
01:27:39.399 --> 01:27:41.079
You're not gonna target them. No.
1741
01:27:41.159 --> 01:27:43.239
I have a friend who's a fishing guide who guide
1742
01:27:43.359 --> 01:27:46.079
spin and fly fishermen. He targeted them and he eat them.
1743
01:27:46.319 --> 01:27:49.039
And I've heard people eat them that they're supposed to
1744
01:27:49.079 --> 01:27:49.279
be good.
1745
01:27:49.560 --> 01:27:51.680
They jump like crazy when you hook them.
1746
01:27:51.560 --> 01:27:53.319
They jump like a target. I didn't know that.
1747
01:27:53.880 --> 01:27:57.159
Yeah, So you know, it's all it's all like what's
1748
01:27:57.159 --> 01:27:58.640
in front of you, right, So.
1749
01:27:59.640 --> 01:28:01.359
That's what that's what I have to kind of rediscovered
1750
01:28:01.359 --> 01:28:04.600
because for me that the most important thing is to
1751
01:28:04.640 --> 01:28:07.479
be standing on the river fairly regularly. It just keeps
1752
01:28:07.520 --> 01:28:08.279
my mind quiet.
1753
01:28:08.920 --> 01:28:12.479
Pennsylvania is loaded. They're not all big, but you between
1754
01:28:12.479 --> 01:28:16.039
the Delaware you got like the Juniana, you got you
1755
01:28:16.119 --> 01:28:21.680
got some big rivers Susquehanna. And yeah, there's two. There's
1756
01:28:21.680 --> 01:28:24.359
two bush kills. You know, you're you're there's a bush
1757
01:28:24.399 --> 01:28:28.239
killed down in Easton, which is all wild fish, and
1758
01:28:28.359 --> 01:28:32.239
that's a great one. That's a different bush killed. No,
1759
01:28:32.399 --> 01:28:34.920
the one in Easton is a spring fed is actually
1760
01:28:34.920 --> 01:28:39.960
a spring creek. It has it has rising fish in February.
1761
01:28:39.960 --> 01:28:41.439
I haven't fished it a lot. Last time I fished,
1762
01:28:41.479 --> 01:28:44.279
I broke my wrist and continued to fish like an idiot.
1763
01:28:44.560 --> 01:28:45.479
That's an endorsement.
1764
01:28:46.079 --> 01:28:47.760
Yeah there, I know, so if you want to break
1765
01:28:47.760 --> 01:28:49.960
the fish. But it's pretty cool to see fish rising
1766
01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:51.680
on olives in February.
1767
01:28:51.880 --> 01:28:56.640
You know, my sister and brother in law and my
1768
01:28:56.720 --> 01:29:00.600
nephew and his wife lived down near Allentown, Bethleem and
1769
01:29:01.840 --> 01:29:03.319
I was under the impression from that it was the
1770
01:29:03.319 --> 01:29:04.399
same river apparently not.
1771
01:29:05.319 --> 01:29:07.840
The No there's you know, and I mean there's there's
1772
01:29:08.439 --> 01:29:11.000
there's lots of stuff you can I don't know the
1773
01:29:11.079 --> 01:29:14.039
Central Pa rivers, and there's big rivers in Western Pa,
1774
01:29:14.159 --> 01:29:16.920
like the Allegheny and you know other ones which have
1775
01:29:17.000 --> 01:29:19.800
some very big trout in them. But but yeah, you know,
1776
01:29:20.880 --> 01:29:22.239
there's all kinds of place to fish.
1777
01:29:22.279 --> 01:29:24.399
You had just and one of my favorite things is
1778
01:29:24.439 --> 01:29:26.920
to explore. So all that will come and I'm still
1779
01:29:27.159 --> 01:29:31.279
going on. Uh, I was out for three weeks. I
1780
01:29:31.319 --> 01:29:34.720
just got home a week ago. I was in Mason
1781
01:29:34.800 --> 01:29:38.039
and Oregon and then uh do another fall trip. So
1782
01:29:38.119 --> 01:29:40.960
I told I told my girls when I decided to
1783
01:29:40.960 --> 01:29:43.720
move back that March in October were mine for the
1784
01:29:43.720 --> 01:29:44.239
West Coast.
1785
01:29:44.399 --> 01:29:46.600
Go are you going to go do the camp trip
1786
01:29:46.640 --> 01:29:47.800
on the two shoots again this year?
1787
01:29:47.880 --> 01:29:48.119
Yeah?
1788
01:29:48.199 --> 01:29:49.720
Yeah, when are you going?
1789
01:29:50.000 --> 01:29:51.960
I'm not sure. You've got a Barrett and I have
1790
01:29:52.000 --> 01:29:54.560
a tough time catching up. He's with a new one,
1791
01:29:54.640 --> 01:29:59.199
with a new Wayne, and he's got so many uh
1792
01:30:00.000 --> 01:30:01.399
irons in the fire right now.
1793
01:30:03.439 --> 01:30:09.640
Two kids, multiple three jobs. Really you know, wow, Yeah.
1794
01:30:09.439 --> 01:30:11.920
There's there's all kinds of stuff going. But I just
1795
01:30:12.159 --> 01:30:15.199
I just sent Evy a package so that his daughter something.
1796
01:30:15.239 --> 01:30:18.840
I'll probably prompt him to lift his head up a
1797
01:30:18.880 --> 01:30:19.239
little bit.
1798
01:30:19.960 --> 01:30:22.399
Yeah. Well, you know, you've had little kids, you know,
1799
01:30:22.439 --> 01:30:24.079
there's nothing more consuming than that.
1800
01:30:24.600 --> 01:30:27.760
There's nothing better than that. I've got. I've got four
1801
01:30:27.800 --> 01:30:30.199
grandkids right now, so I just I just spent the
1802
01:30:30.239 --> 01:30:33.000
weekend with them. It's just awesome.
1803
01:30:33.520 --> 01:30:33.720
Yeah.
1804
01:30:33.800 --> 01:30:37.239
Yeah, it's the only part of my life. That is
1805
01:30:37.279 --> 01:30:39.359
what I wanted it to be. Is his parenthood.
1806
01:30:40.000 --> 01:30:44.000
Well, you know, it sounds like you've had He's pretty interesting, yes,
1807
01:30:44.439 --> 01:30:47.199
And it also sounds like, you know, I think you're
1808
01:30:47.199 --> 01:30:49.800
I think you're probably gonna love your new How long
1809
01:30:49.840 --> 01:30:50.880
have you been back east?
1810
01:30:51.319 --> 01:30:55.159
Oh? Just not even a year yet? Yeah, And I'm
1811
01:30:55.199 --> 01:30:59.760
looking right now. Got a line on studio space and
1812
01:31:00.079 --> 01:31:01.479
because I've been working out of the house and it's
1813
01:31:01.520 --> 01:31:06.640
not big enough because I worked kind of big and uh,
1814
01:31:06.800 --> 01:31:09.760
and I want to work bigger. But now there's all
1815
01:31:09.800 --> 01:31:11.399
kinds of stuff and I'm all lit up about work,
1816
01:31:12.960 --> 01:31:15.319
a little bit about fishing, a little bit about grandkids.
1817
01:31:15.520 --> 01:31:16.600
So that's all good.
1818
01:31:16.880 --> 01:31:20.279
You're all lit up. That's good. Better be lit up
1819
01:31:20.319 --> 01:31:23.159
than you know, petering out exactly what.
1820
01:31:23.399 --> 01:31:27.920
And it's kind of funny like the last half dozen
1821
01:31:27.960 --> 01:31:32.720
years I've been I've referred to as rage casting. The
1822
01:31:33.720 --> 01:31:38.840
last dozen years has been a trial and uh, about
1823
01:31:38.840 --> 01:31:43.520
six years ago it really went south and I didn't
1824
01:31:43.520 --> 01:31:46.960
come in glue, but was having a hard time finding
1825
01:31:47.000 --> 01:31:50.560
my piece. And when I finally came to terms with
1826
01:31:50.640 --> 01:31:53.359
needing to leave Oregon and come back here, which is
1827
01:31:53.720 --> 01:31:55.960
is just what it is. I just happened to love Oregon,
1828
01:31:57.720 --> 01:32:03.520
but I was. I went fishing with Barrett, and I
1829
01:32:03.560 --> 01:32:08.920
had been angry for probably five years, and all of
1830
01:32:08.960 --> 01:32:12.520
a sudden, I felt peaceful, and all of a sudden,
1831
01:32:12.520 --> 01:32:13.720
I started catching fish.
1832
01:32:14.439 --> 01:32:19.560
And I was out there here karma just realigned, which
1833
01:32:20.439 --> 01:32:20.760
I was.
1834
01:32:20.840 --> 01:32:24.279
I was still kind of stewing over the path I
1835
01:32:24.319 --> 01:32:28.319
needed to take, and this last stretch out there, some
1836
01:32:28.439 --> 01:32:30.159
kind of things clicked into place, and I have a
1837
01:32:30.199 --> 01:32:33.279
plan and I'm feeling good about it, and that's this
1838
01:32:33.399 --> 01:32:34.760
time to dive in and make it happen.
1839
01:32:35.119 --> 01:32:38.079
The thing is very therapeutic after I mean not to
1840
01:32:38.079 --> 01:32:41.439
get too mystical about it, but after some major traumas
1841
01:32:41.479 --> 01:32:44.439
I had in my past, at one point I quit
1842
01:32:44.479 --> 01:32:47.479
my other job. I had had a personal tragedy. Someone
1843
01:32:47.520 --> 01:32:50.319
I lived with passed away. I quit my job at
1844
01:32:50.319 --> 01:32:52.399
a law firm, I moved back to New York, and
1845
01:32:52.439 --> 01:32:55.399
I in this five month period, I spent every dime
1846
01:32:55.479 --> 01:32:58.399
I had roaming around Belize in Mexico and fishing. I
1847
01:32:58.479 --> 01:33:03.000
literally spent it down to a month's rent. And then
1848
01:33:03.039 --> 01:33:05.880
I started work again and I caught a bazillion fish,
1849
01:33:05.880 --> 01:33:07.800
and I did it all by myself. I didn't travel
1850
01:33:07.800 --> 01:33:10.399
with anyone, you know, just met people along the way
1851
01:33:10.439 --> 01:33:13.560
and back then enough frequent flyer miles enough to stay
1852
01:33:13.560 --> 01:33:17.279
in you know, a cheap lodge and catch a million fish.
1853
01:33:17.840 --> 01:33:20.640
And it was the best thing for sort of writing
1854
01:33:20.680 --> 01:33:22.159
myself after that.
1855
01:33:22.399 --> 01:33:24.920
Just you just need some peace, yes.
1856
01:33:24.760 --> 01:33:27.920
And being outside does it, Yeah.
1857
01:33:27.680 --> 01:33:31.680
It does. It's you know, it's funny because people, you know,
1858
01:33:31.760 --> 01:33:33.199
you say you don't want to get too mystical, but
1859
01:33:33.359 --> 01:33:36.439
to me, it really is. My uh, I said that.
1860
01:33:36.479 --> 01:33:39.920
My folks kept waiting for me to I'll grow fishing,
1861
01:33:40.039 --> 01:33:42.079
and I finally, just not too long ago, said to
1862
01:33:42.119 --> 01:33:46.199
my mother, Mom, when you are here and then I'm
1863
01:33:46.199 --> 01:33:50.640
going fishing. Instead of thinking about me going fishing and
1864
01:33:50.760 --> 01:33:53.159
what you what you bring to that, think about me
1865
01:33:53.239 --> 01:33:56.760
going to church and what you take to go to church,
1866
01:33:56.880 --> 01:34:00.520
because it's the same thing to me. Super She said
1867
01:34:00.560 --> 01:34:03.640
something along the lines of I think I realized that,
1868
01:34:03.680 --> 01:34:05.720
but I don't understand it. I'm like, I know you don't,
1869
01:34:06.239 --> 01:34:08.680
but I quite frankly don't understand you're obsessed with church.
1870
01:34:08.880 --> 01:34:11.399
The thing is you're talking about rage casting. When you're
1871
01:34:11.439 --> 01:34:14.079
in that mindset, it's just not fun. And if you're
1872
01:34:14.159 --> 01:34:17.199
like you're there because you need to catch a fish,
1873
01:34:17.239 --> 01:34:19.640
and it's just you know, you need to Well you
1874
01:34:19.680 --> 01:34:21.640
wouldn't be choosing to steal it if your sole goal
1875
01:34:21.720 --> 01:34:22.479
was to catch fish.
1876
01:34:22.520 --> 01:34:27.039
But no, it's it's actually it's the piece of fishing
1877
01:34:27.079 --> 01:34:28.000
or run well.
1878
01:34:29.720 --> 01:34:31.920
Yeah, yeah, and just you know, you have days where
1879
01:34:31.960 --> 01:34:33.439
you don't catch anything. It's like the best day you
1880
01:34:33.479 --> 01:34:34.600
ever had, and then you have days where you do
1881
01:34:34.640 --> 01:34:36.159
catch something. And I was like, that was pretty good, but
1882
01:34:36.359 --> 01:34:38.760
you know, didn't necessarily catch him how I wanted to.
1883
01:34:39.359 --> 01:34:42.520
I actually hooked a fish on the North Uncleote, reeling
1884
01:34:42.600 --> 01:34:46.720
in and and so, and that place is hard to
1885
01:34:46.800 --> 01:34:48.399
fish and it's awful to wade.
1886
01:34:48.600 --> 01:34:50.479
And but it's also the best.
1887
01:34:50.960 --> 01:34:52.760
I mean, it's so cool, right, It's just like the
1888
01:34:52.800 --> 01:34:55.399
coolest place. And I hook in the fish and I'm like, so,
1889
01:34:55.520 --> 01:34:59.039
I'm with James shaughness I've got one. And then it
1890
01:34:59.079 --> 01:35:00.920
comes off and I like whatever, And he said, how
1891
01:35:00.960 --> 01:35:03.800
were you? So, like, why are you not disappointed? I said,
1892
01:35:03.800 --> 01:35:06.239
didn't want to catch one, feeling in like that's the
1893
01:35:07.079 --> 01:35:09.760
that's like, that's the that I don't even get to
1894
01:35:09.840 --> 01:35:11.319
count that one, right, that's.
1895
01:35:11.199 --> 01:35:13.399
So when you were a little kid, when I was
1896
01:35:13.399 --> 01:35:16.159
a little kid. That was my secret technique because so
1897
01:35:16.359 --> 01:35:18.520
often I would catch a fish that I was reeling up,
1898
01:35:19.039 --> 01:35:20.560
so I would I would try to get in the
1899
01:35:20.600 --> 01:35:22.640
mindset if I had to leave, even if I didn't
1900
01:35:22.640 --> 01:35:24.920
have to leave. So I tried to reel up exactly
1901
01:35:24.960 --> 01:35:27.239
the same way, and it never worked.
1902
01:35:27.319 --> 01:35:29.600
So I know I did that. A couple of years ago.
1903
01:35:29.680 --> 01:35:32.239
I was fishing in the middle. There's a place lower
1904
01:35:32.319 --> 01:35:35.359
Delaware that at least that winter was very productive. It's
1905
01:35:35.439 --> 01:35:36.880
kind of a slow day, and so I said, I
1906
01:35:36.920 --> 01:35:40.720
screw it, So I'm reeling in. I get hammered. I'm like, okay,
1907
01:35:41.159 --> 01:35:44.039
we're going striper on this brown troup. So I, you know,
1908
01:35:44.279 --> 01:35:46.600
doing my little snap teas out there. I put the
1909
01:35:46.680 --> 01:35:48.479
rod under my arm, you know, the two ends trip
1910
01:35:48.520 --> 01:35:51.359
I'm going to wam getting like a twenty inch ground.
1911
01:35:51.640 --> 01:35:53.560
I'm like, and I did it, and I got like
1912
01:35:53.640 --> 01:35:56.560
three fish in a row. That is just what they wanted, right,
1913
01:35:56.880 --> 01:35:59.239
this slow swing thing was just not doing it for
1914
01:35:59.279 --> 01:36:02.079
it for the day. And but but the notion of
1915
01:36:02.119 --> 01:36:04.199
putting a two handed retrieved with you know, a twelve
1916
01:36:04.199 --> 01:36:07.079
foot spare out in your armpit is like preposterous, right,
1917
01:36:07.079 --> 01:36:09.680
So maybe we'll maybe I'll go to hell for that.
1918
01:36:09.760 --> 01:36:12.199
But it was not have you taken it to the
1919
01:36:12.239 --> 01:36:12.800
cape yet?
1920
01:36:13.960 --> 01:36:15.720
I So I used to fish a two handed rod
1921
01:36:15.760 --> 01:36:18.239
before I spink ass a two handed overhead rod. So
1922
01:36:18.319 --> 01:36:20.479
that was good for the surf in New Jersey, I didn't.
1923
01:36:20.520 --> 01:36:22.880
I fish Cape Cut Bay a lot, which is quiet water.
1924
01:36:22.920 --> 01:36:25.840
You're looking for swirls and stuff, and the two handle
1925
01:36:25.920 --> 01:36:30.000
was too noisy for that. Right, there was not switch there.
1926
01:36:30.199 --> 01:36:32.000
But if you but if you're fishing in the at
1927
01:36:32.039 --> 01:36:34.600
would you know, like like on the ocean side where
1928
01:36:34.600 --> 01:36:37.279
you have surf and everything, it's amazing for throw but
1929
01:36:37.279 --> 01:36:41.239
but striper fishing in quiet water, it's for me. I
1930
01:36:41.319 --> 01:36:44.960
prefer you know, trying. Yeah, yeah, you need it, and
1931
01:36:44.960 --> 01:36:46.880
and it's just it's a more accurate way to do
1932
01:36:46.920 --> 01:36:49.079
it right. It's less about distance and more about creeping
1933
01:36:49.159 --> 01:36:51.119
up on it. But but yeah, no, I cut a
1934
01:36:51.159 --> 01:36:52.640
bunch of stripers on a two andrew.
1935
01:36:52.680 --> 01:36:54.199
That was there was like.
1936
01:36:54.159 --> 01:36:58.119
A uh, one of these vicious debates about something that
1937
01:36:58.159 --> 01:37:01.000
doesn't matter, like the two handed striper guys who thought
1938
01:37:01.039 --> 01:37:03.720
we're the innovators were bringing the two handed thing, and
1939
01:37:03.760 --> 01:37:06.279
then these old timers and like I've been throwing wheels
1940
01:37:06.279 --> 01:37:09.239
since you know, since the Truman administration, and like and
1941
01:37:10.199 --> 01:37:11.960
and I always thought, like I love it, right, Like
1942
01:37:12.039 --> 01:37:14.840
the less that's at stake, the more vicious the dispute.
1943
01:37:14.920 --> 01:37:16.640
So I tried to both and I had fun. There
1944
01:37:16.720 --> 01:37:18.960
was like a temple four twelve vander c and D
1945
01:37:19.239 --> 01:37:22.720
had a two handed overhand rod, and Beutla has a
1946
01:37:22.720 --> 01:37:27.039
great two handed overhead rod, and yeah, I think he
1947
01:37:27.079 --> 01:37:30.680
looked at rooster on one of those. And yeah, it
1948
01:37:30.720 --> 01:37:33.920
depends on where you're fishing. But like my mother in
1949
01:37:34.000 --> 01:37:36.079
law lived near Cape Cod Bay, so I would just
1950
01:37:36.359 --> 01:37:39.199
follow the tide out be in knee deep water, and
1951
01:37:39.239 --> 01:37:41.960
I would just look for swirl Yeah this was at
1952
01:37:42.000 --> 01:37:44.279
dawn before my daughters woke up, and I'd look for
1953
01:37:44.279 --> 01:37:46.840
swirrels or tailing. Sometimes you see the striper's tailing, which
1954
01:37:46.840 --> 01:37:49.800
is super cool, like a bonefish. So they weren't particularly big,
1955
01:37:49.880 --> 01:37:52.079
but you could just quietly creep a gurgler in between,
1956
01:37:52.239 --> 01:37:54.560
or like a little baitfish fly, and then all l
1957
01:37:54.600 --> 01:37:56.520
would break loose and you'd scare the whole school with
1958
01:37:56.560 --> 01:38:00.640
one fit hooking one fish. But it's just just one
1959
01:38:00.720 --> 01:38:03.119
of the most amazing environments I've ever been to because
1960
01:38:03.159 --> 01:38:06.520
you go out of dawn, it's completely dead. All the
1961
01:38:06.560 --> 01:38:09.319
birds are just quietly sitting on the sandbars. The second
1962
01:38:09.359 --> 01:38:12.000
there's enough light for them to see baitfish. It says,
1963
01:38:12.079 --> 01:38:15.159
if they all freak out, it's like it just lights up. Well,
1964
01:38:15.319 --> 01:38:17.760
they've all taken LSD or something. And then they're all
1965
01:38:17.800 --> 01:38:20.520
freaking out and diving everywhere, and you're out there by
1966
01:38:20.560 --> 01:38:22.680
your I don't think I saw fisherman in fifteen years
1967
01:38:22.680 --> 01:38:24.079
of fishing in this spot ever.
1968
01:38:25.359 --> 01:38:28.039
No, it's the most magical night I've had out there.
1969
01:38:29.800 --> 01:38:33.039
Coop showed me a sand deal that was bubblegum colored,
1970
01:38:33.479 --> 01:38:37.479
and I'm like, that's just idiotic, And you think he
1971
01:38:37.560 --> 01:38:41.239
gave me an olive, a sharp trouse and that thing.
1972
01:38:41.920 --> 01:38:46.079
So we're walking out I don't want to say recording
1973
01:38:46.479 --> 01:38:51.920
which spit, and the tide's going out and the light's perfect,
1974
01:38:52.199 --> 01:38:56.399
and I'm seeing three to ten stripers at a time
1975
01:38:57.000 --> 01:39:00.760
chasing sand eels and just casting ahead of them, and uh,
1976
01:39:01.640 --> 01:39:04.079
I get six or eight fish and lose the all
1977
01:39:04.119 --> 01:39:06.039
of one. I get a few more on the chart
1978
01:39:06.119 --> 01:39:08.600
reas one and then I put that stupid pink one
1979
01:39:08.640 --> 01:39:14.039
on and it's just fucking electric and eventually, because I'm
1980
01:39:14.079 --> 01:39:16.159
so catch as so many fish, I'm not retying like
1981
01:39:16.199 --> 01:39:17.880
I should. So I lose that one and I go
1982
01:39:17.960 --> 01:39:19.720
hobbling up to Coop and I say, how many more
1983
01:39:19.760 --> 01:39:21.880
pig flies you got? Yelp with his box and he's
1984
01:39:21.880 --> 01:39:24.840
got one left, and I reached him and took his
1985
01:39:25.039 --> 01:39:26.479
last one and said thanks.
1986
01:39:27.600 --> 01:39:31.359
You know, you know the thing about stripers is sometimes
1987
01:39:31.359 --> 01:39:36.760
there's there gullible and there are times where they're absolutely impossible.
1988
01:39:36.760 --> 01:39:38.960
You can be on the flats and stripers. And I
1989
01:39:39.000 --> 01:39:40.640
did it a couple of years ago, is in eastern
1990
01:39:40.680 --> 01:39:43.159
Long Island. We had twenty five pound strippers everyone in
1991
01:39:43.159 --> 01:39:44.960
the boat and they sort of look at the fly
1992
01:39:45.119 --> 01:39:47.840
and they just you know, they're every bit as selective
1993
01:39:47.840 --> 01:39:51.359
as brown trout. And another thing Lefty Gray told me
1994
01:39:51.520 --> 01:39:53.800
is he said they're the most selective fish in the
1995
01:39:53.840 --> 01:39:56.439
ocean in terms of fly pattern, in terms of like,
1996
01:39:57.079 --> 01:39:59.640
you know, there are I mean obviously permanent to heap.
1997
01:39:59.680 --> 01:40:01.520
It's not because of the fly pattern, it's because of
1998
01:40:01.560 --> 01:40:04.399
the presentation. Striper sit there and is like, no, I
1999
01:40:04.399 --> 01:40:07.960
want the olive over pink over white one, not the
2000
01:40:08.199 --> 01:40:11.119
chartreuse white one. I've seen it just way too many
2001
01:40:11.119 --> 01:40:12.680
times for it not to be true.
2002
01:40:12.920 --> 01:40:14.880
It's funny. I used to when I was in college.
2003
01:40:14.920 --> 01:40:19.119
I fished a little tiny spring creek that was just
2004
01:40:19.239 --> 01:40:24.359
crazy meticulous to fish unless it was really bright sun
2005
01:40:24.800 --> 01:40:27.159
and you could put on a number twelve Mickey Finn
2006
01:40:27.479 --> 01:40:30.439
and strip it fast and you would crush fish.
2007
01:40:30.479 --> 01:40:31.439
It's crazy, right.
2008
01:40:31.560 --> 01:40:34.920
But I'm positive it's because of we're looking at a
2009
01:40:35.039 --> 01:40:39.159
yellow red yellow fly, but from underneath with back light,
2010
01:40:39.760 --> 01:40:42.600
I don't think that's what they're seeing. And when that
2011
01:40:42.680 --> 01:40:45.119
pink fly was just crushing, it was super bright song,
2012
01:40:45.560 --> 01:40:48.720
and I think from behind those colors don't look the same.
2013
01:40:50.199 --> 01:40:51.760
I don't know if you ever. There's a guy who's
2014
01:40:51.800 --> 01:40:54.239
a spade fisherman. He's great fly tire. He's a professor
2015
01:40:54.399 --> 01:40:58.760
at Colorado's State University. His name is Eric Ishawata. Is
2016
01:40:58.800 --> 01:41:00.000
that name the most name?
2017
01:41:00.119 --> 01:41:00.600
Yeah?
2018
01:41:00.680 --> 01:41:04.720
Yeah. So Eric ties great trout, spaceflies and catches huge fish.
2019
01:41:05.119 --> 01:41:08.560
So he became friends with the MEPs spinner guy, who
2020
01:41:08.600 --> 01:41:12.520
had all these theories about color, like very very like
2021
01:41:12.640 --> 01:41:17.720
thought out theories about colors of well, in his case,
2022
01:41:17.720 --> 01:41:21.600
spinners of spinners in relation to both light conditions and
2023
01:41:21.680 --> 01:41:25.279
water clarity. So Eric would always be fishing. No, you know,
2024
01:41:25.479 --> 01:41:27.239
it's got to be like he was telling me about this.
2025
01:41:27.279 --> 01:41:29.680
I didn't go fish, I saltwater fish with them. I didn't.
2026
01:41:29.880 --> 01:41:31.880
But he's like, no, you know, when you have dirty water,
2027
01:41:31.920 --> 01:41:34.840
the light is low. I really like like Chartreus and purple, Like,
2028
01:41:34.960 --> 01:41:39.119
who's like Chartreus and purple? That would scare every fish
2029
01:41:39.119 --> 01:41:41.239
out of the Delaware. But this guy had a system
2030
01:41:41.279 --> 01:41:43.960
and he was just like he just showed me these
2031
01:41:44.119 --> 01:41:47.439
enormous fish, and it was very much about sort of
2032
01:41:47.479 --> 01:41:51.159
contrast color conditions. I'm very much a believer. I one
2033
01:41:51.239 --> 01:41:54.359
hundred percent have proven it to myself, at least for trout.
2034
01:41:54.399 --> 01:41:57.000
I can't say for steal that like black and orange
2035
01:41:57.039 --> 01:41:59.920
shows up in dirty water better than any other color combiny.
2036
01:42:00.159 --> 01:42:02.720
I've just seen it. Olive and brown, which is like
2037
01:42:02.760 --> 01:42:06.279
a great clear water color combination, is like in dirty
2038
01:42:06.319 --> 01:42:11.159
water or water that has like a olivey cast. And
2039
01:42:11.199 --> 01:42:13.840
in the winter, white and blue is a killer color
2040
01:42:13.920 --> 01:42:16.319
combination of the Delaware because at least the upper stretches
2041
01:42:16.359 --> 01:42:20.239
there are alwives that spill over the dam. Okay, so
2042
01:42:20.239 --> 01:42:22.319
I've got a lot of big fish on that, you know,
2043
01:42:22.399 --> 01:42:25.800
but or anyway, those are my theories, whether there's actual
2044
01:42:25.800 --> 01:42:27.760
any validity to them is almost irrelevant.
2045
01:42:27.960 --> 01:42:31.000
Well that's that's the thing about fly pattern and theories
2046
01:42:31.079 --> 01:42:33.439
is that you know, we're all just in our own
2047
01:42:33.439 --> 01:42:36.920
head with our own theories and actually scientific test.
2048
01:42:37.119 --> 01:42:39.000
Yeah, they're right, right, they're right. You know. It's like
2049
01:42:40.439 --> 01:42:42.720
maybe a guy fishing a big rubber frog would be
2050
01:42:42.800 --> 01:42:46.000
doing better, but I refuse to believe that. Right.
2051
01:42:46.039 --> 01:42:48.039
Oh, that's a Herder's classic, The River Frog.
2052
01:42:48.680 --> 01:42:53.479
Absolutely, Oh my god, the The Nole Guide to Trout Flies.
2053
01:42:53.520 --> 01:42:54.479
Did you ever have that book?
2054
01:42:54.640 --> 01:42:58.199
Yeah? Sure, that was my first flight time book. I
2055
01:42:58.279 --> 01:43:00.760
think that. I think the book that most freaked me
2056
01:43:00.760 --> 01:43:03.079
out as a kid was McLean's Fishing Encyclopedia, and I
2057
01:43:03.119 --> 01:43:05.199
had two copies of it. For some reason, two people
2058
01:43:05.239 --> 01:43:05.960
gave it to Dega.
2059
01:43:06.119 --> 01:43:09.800
Because AJ McLean's Practical Fly Fisherman was my fishing bible.
2060
01:43:10.119 --> 01:43:12.239
Well that was that was a great one. But the
2061
01:43:12.279 --> 01:43:16.079
Fly the Fishing Encyclopedia, that's where I saw what a
2062
01:43:16.520 --> 01:43:19.119
what a tiger fish looked like? A rooster fish also
2063
01:43:19.279 --> 01:43:22.279
extic exactly. But the way I learned to type fly
2064
01:43:22.439 --> 01:43:24.439
is what was from. There was a famous Catskill tur
2065
01:43:24.520 --> 01:43:28.079
named al Jorgenson and he tied he you know, he's one,
2066
01:43:28.159 --> 01:43:30.680
and I learned from his books Art Flakes Books, Whitcher
2067
01:43:30.960 --> 01:43:34.720
Susher and Richards. And then through the ears, Bob quickly
2068
01:43:34.800 --> 01:43:37.239
you know, tied great stock sealed flies, he invented the
2069
01:43:37.279 --> 01:43:42.239
hackle stacker. But you know, eventually it was through that guy,
2070
01:43:42.279 --> 01:43:45.520
Bob Popovic. He's like, forget fly patterns, you just imitate
2071
01:43:45.600 --> 01:43:48.479
what you see. You trace that baitfish, yeah, you know,
2072
01:43:48.760 --> 01:43:51.199
and that was liberating for me. So like, I'm not
2073
01:43:51.279 --> 01:43:54.119
tying a parachute. I'm just I'm tying whatever I think
2074
01:43:54.239 --> 01:43:57.439
is the best approximation of what this thing looks like
2075
01:43:57.479 --> 01:43:58.359
in around the water.
2076
01:43:58.840 --> 01:44:02.520
Well, I think it's that, you know, we learned growing
2077
01:44:02.600 --> 01:44:07.000
up from books, and when people started trading ideas on
2078
01:44:07.039 --> 01:44:10.319
the internet, fly time just exploded because I mean like
2079
01:44:10.439 --> 01:44:14.079
art Flex Streamside Guide was the Bible Forever, yeah.
2080
01:44:13.960 --> 01:44:16.680
Which I read wells from that book, right.
2081
01:44:16.720 --> 01:44:20.359
And then and then the Internet launches and suddenly they're
2082
01:44:20.399 --> 01:44:24.920
just fascinating jumps and patterns, and you're seeing stuff from.
2083
01:44:24.720 --> 01:44:28.920
Europe and also just the amount of information people even
2084
01:44:29.039 --> 01:44:32.800
have about each other. They'll be like, oh, yeah, right,
2085
01:44:33.159 --> 01:44:35.600
you tied that thing In two thousand and seven, right,
2086
01:44:36.000 --> 01:44:38.239
I'm like, how do you know that? And it's like, well,
2087
01:44:38.279 --> 01:44:40.640
because there's a YouTube video of the show up at
2088
01:44:40.680 --> 01:44:43.279
the bears Den, or like and you know, because they
2089
01:44:43.279 --> 01:44:45.520
did the same thing that I did. Right, I've looked
2090
01:44:45.520 --> 01:44:49.039
at probably every fly that's ever been posted on the internet. Right,
2091
01:44:49.159 --> 01:44:52.680
you know it's and and but something is lost. It
2092
01:44:52.800 --> 01:44:55.680
was like when you can go see every great jazz
2093
01:44:55.760 --> 01:44:57.920
musician on a YouTube video, I never saw them. I
2094
01:44:57.960 --> 01:45:02.079
had to go, you know, spend my harder gig money
2095
01:45:02.079 --> 01:45:05.000
at like like in cutouts and record stores. But there
2096
01:45:05.159 --> 01:45:07.840
was something about the hunt for that stuff that was special.
2097
01:45:08.199 --> 01:45:13.680
Yeah, I agree, I agree. It's it's funny. That's one
2098
01:45:13.680 --> 01:45:15.680
of the one of the conversations I don't even know
2099
01:45:15.680 --> 01:45:21.119
how to have that. My son and I talk about
2100
01:45:21.119 --> 01:45:22.960
this a lot, and in relations to the podcast, that
2101
01:45:23.000 --> 01:45:26.720
there's a feeling of exclusion by a lot of young
2102
01:45:26.760 --> 01:45:32.239
people that fishermen don't give up their spots, don't tell
2103
01:45:32.239 --> 01:45:36.920
people where to fish. And man, because he's going to
2104
01:45:36.920 --> 01:45:38.520
be editing this, he'll tell me if I get this
2105
01:45:38.600 --> 01:45:41.239
right or not. His thing is if you're not willing
2106
01:45:41.239 --> 01:45:43.520
to share it, don't talk about it. That's my son
2107
01:45:43.560 --> 01:45:48.880
doesn't fish doesn't he isn't interested in it. I think
2108
01:45:48.920 --> 01:45:53.760
I understand his argument now. But to me, it's that
2109
01:45:56.000 --> 01:45:58.039
back in the day, pulling out a map, pulling out
2110
01:45:58.119 --> 01:46:01.119
a Rand McNelly atlas or a gazety here and just
2111
01:46:01.239 --> 01:46:04.319
combing through the Southern Tier in New York and homing
2112
01:46:04.399 --> 01:46:06.079
in on the pages you had to do to find
2113
01:46:06.119 --> 01:46:08.680
some little tiny stream and figuring out how to go
2114
01:46:08.760 --> 01:46:11.680
find it, get access to it, get permission to park
2115
01:46:11.720 --> 01:46:15.319
in some farmers lane and walk down through his fields
2116
01:46:15.319 --> 01:46:17.439
and fish that river, that little tiny.
2117
01:46:17.279 --> 01:46:20.159
Stream that is still available. I try.
2118
01:46:20.239 --> 01:46:23.640
You know, it's not available to me. There's the value
2119
01:46:23.720 --> 01:46:26.359
in that that if somebody tells you where to go,
2120
01:46:27.359 --> 01:46:29.279
you're missing one of the best parts.
2121
01:46:30.399 --> 01:46:32.800
There's no question you've got to fumble around. You are
2122
01:46:32.840 --> 01:46:35.359
going to be so much happier if you if you
2123
01:46:35.640 --> 01:46:38.920
figured it out or stumbled into it, you know, on
2124
01:46:38.960 --> 01:46:43.640
your own, you know the And with respect to the
2125
01:46:43.640 --> 01:46:45.960
fly tying thing, it sort of reminds me of like
2126
01:46:46.039 --> 01:46:48.840
I mentioned Bob Popovic before, He's the one who started me.
2127
01:46:48.880 --> 01:46:50.520
I used to write a column for one of the
2128
01:46:50.520 --> 01:46:54.039
magazines and need story for fly fishermen sometimes, and he said,
2129
01:46:54.039 --> 01:46:56.439
if you're going to go start doing this just to
2130
01:46:56.560 --> 01:46:59.399
show off that you're a good fly tire, then basically
2131
01:46:59.439 --> 01:47:02.800
you suck, right, the only reason you should have and
2132
01:47:02.840 --> 01:47:05.000
this is coming from the guy who is the best
2133
01:47:05.039 --> 01:47:09.039
fly tiger, right, the most inventive, he said, the only
2134
01:47:09.119 --> 01:47:11.359
reason for you to do this is to show people
2135
01:47:11.399 --> 01:47:13.880
that they can do it, that it's not hard, and
2136
01:47:14.000 --> 01:47:15.920
teach them and hopefully they're going to figure out something
2137
01:47:15.960 --> 01:47:17.680
on their own. He said, I teach people and I
2138
01:47:17.720 --> 01:47:21.079
hope they improve my technique. And he was better at
2139
01:47:21.119 --> 01:47:24.399
it than anyone. And of course when I started doing this,
2140
01:47:24.479 --> 01:47:26.199
I was like, Oh, I'm gonna show these guys like
2141
01:47:26.239 --> 01:47:28.199
I could really like, look at how cool this is.
2142
01:47:28.680 --> 01:47:32.800
And that has about one second's worth of like personal value.
2143
01:47:32.960 --> 01:47:35.199
But if you got some kid or some maybe some
2144
01:47:35.279 --> 01:47:37.760
old guy or something you know, or somebody who's visiting.
2145
01:47:38.399 --> 01:47:40.800
Was talking to some guy at the Florida the Florida
2146
01:47:40.840 --> 01:47:43.960
Show who was from Columbia, and I think he'd lived
2147
01:47:44.000 --> 01:47:46.000
in Florida for a while. But he was so cool
2148
01:47:46.000 --> 01:47:48.039
and he had such a different perspective on it, and
2149
01:47:48.079 --> 01:47:49.560
he was so interested in telling this. And then he
2150
01:47:49.640 --> 01:47:51.760
was telling me how he approached his flies, and it
2151
01:47:51.840 --> 01:47:53.880
was just like so interesting. That is the reason to
2152
01:47:53.960 --> 01:47:58.239
do it. The show off thing is is like gets
2153
01:47:58.279 --> 01:48:02.119
you about like a mall, like you of satisfaction rather than.
2154
01:48:02.359 --> 01:48:04.640
You know, it's the sharing and the conversation.
2155
01:48:04.840 --> 01:48:06.560
I mean he really he really taught. That was an
2156
01:48:06.560 --> 01:48:08.840
incredible legacy for a guy who was actually better at
2157
01:48:08.840 --> 01:48:12.479
it than Emyboddy us right, like you know, that's why
2158
01:48:12.520 --> 01:48:16.000
he commanded the respect because there are a million good
2159
01:48:16.039 --> 01:48:21.000
technical fly tires now who are amazing, right there are, right,
2160
01:48:21.079 --> 01:48:25.560
but but his his approach. I saw him those people
2161
01:48:25.640 --> 01:48:28.000
like Bob and Lefty, they were all about teaching people
2162
01:48:28.000 --> 01:48:30.119
and I really admire that because I'm not really good
2163
01:48:30.119 --> 01:48:30.359
at that.
2164
01:48:30.600 --> 01:48:31.199
So, like.
2165
01:48:33.560 --> 01:48:37.760
You know, with the time thing anyway, enough waxing poetic.
2166
01:48:38.159 --> 01:48:41.279
Yeah, it's been a great conversation man, Yeah, thank you.
2167
01:48:41.239 --> 01:48:43.800
For Yeah, I appreciate it.
2168
01:48:43.880 --> 01:48:46.880
Looking forward to sharing a Beerrett, but I'm a Patrick's
2169
01:48:46.960 --> 01:48:48.319
King will be fun.
2170
01:48:48.359 --> 01:48:49.319
I look forward to it too.
2171
01:48:49.960 --> 01:48:53.199
The River Ramblers production of Swingfly. There's a swing tofly
2172
01:48:53.319 --> 01:48:55.600
dot com for the best swung fly and space casting
2173
01:48:55.640 --> 01:48:57.319
content on the web and in print.
2174
01:49:00.439 --> 01:49:00.600
One