How Putting Workers First Helps Businesses Thrive with Stephan Meier

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Question for you.

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Which comes first?

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The chicken or the egg?

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Now, this riddle
feels like a bit of a conundrum,

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and it isn't something
we need to talk about here.

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But there's a similar tension
that we could frame as a conundrum

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in business, and that is customer
first or employer employee first.

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That is the question
we will wrestle with today.

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And our guest has an answer.

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Welcome to another episode
of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,

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where we are
helping leaders grow personally

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and professionally to lead
more effectively and make a bigger,

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positive difference for their teams,
organizations and the world.

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If you are listening to this podcast,
you could be with us in the future.

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Live on your favorite social media
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Well, unless I suppose that channel is
discord or TikTok because we're not there.

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But listen, you can join us in the future
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sooner
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And then you can join us live. Hope
you'll do that.

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Today's episode is brought to you
by my latest book, Flexible Leadership.

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Navigate uncertainty
and lead with confidence.

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It's time
to realize that styles can get in our way,

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and that following our strengths
might not always be the best approach.

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In a world that is more complex
and uncertain than ever.

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Leaders need a new perspective
and a set of tools to create

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great results for their organizations
and team members.

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That's why that's what flexible leadership
provides you and why I wrote it.

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You can learn more and order your copy
now at remarkable podcast.com/flexible

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seems like a logical link.

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And with that, let me bring in my guest.

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There he is.

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We had the chance to chat
for a few minutes before we went live.

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And you're going to love this
conversation.

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His name is Stefan Meyer.

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He is the James P Gorman Gorman
Professor of Business

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Strategy at Columbia Business School
and the chair of the management division.

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He's the author of a new book, his first,
The Employee Advantage

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How Putting Workers First Makes,
Excuse me, helps Business thrive.

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He is an award winning teacher of classes
in the MBA and MBA program, executive

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Education on strategy, the future of work,
and behavioral economics.

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I'm going to come back to that
behavioral economics part in a second.

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He previously was a senior economist
at the Federal Reserve Bank in Boston.

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His work has been published in leading
academic journals, including the American

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Economic Review, Management Science,
Psychological Science, Science Magazine,

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and has been profiled by the press

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in places like The Economist,
The Wall Street

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Journal, the Financial Times, A New York
Times, all sorts of other places.

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He has a PhD in economics from the
University of Zurich, and he is my guest.

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And I'm glad to have you, Stefan.

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Thanks for being here.

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Thank you so much for having me, Kevin.

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That was a way to a nice introduction,
I think.

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Well, your mother wrote it, so here we go.

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It's,

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I always feel like when someone introduces
a game like that sounded. How?

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I don't know.

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But then I realized
that we probably sent it to him.

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So, I'm so glad that you're here.

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I'm looking forward to this conversation,

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but I'd really like to start here.

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When you were a kid, you didn't

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probably think you would be
a behavioral economics economist.

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Like, just a little bit about the journey

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that leads you to this kind of work

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and then sort of what leads to the book.

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Thank you so much Kevin.

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No I did not want it to be
a behavioral economist.

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When I was a kid.

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I actually wanted to be first.

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I wanted to be a bus driver because
I thought that the chair is really cool.

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It's really bouncy.

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I really enjoyed that.

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And then I wanted to be an astronaut.

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See, that's why I put people
that's of roughly our age.

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They want to be an astronaut.

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I've never that I really.

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I was obsessed
with the space shuttle program, and,

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Yeah,

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I was I
saw the first launch of the space shuttle.

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So that kind of you can
you can maybe backward engineer.

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How how young.

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I cannot be, well, I'll tell.

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You what the,

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the only thing I'm going to say about that
is that means I'm older because I,

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you know, I have a I have an earlier
memory of the space program.

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We'll just let that go.

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I, I okay, so so then I,

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I actually started to study, history.

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Interesting.

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So I have a master's in history.

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I so I grew up in Switzerland,
I studied in Switzerland,

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and I did, I studied history, in fact,
I studied a lot of U.S.

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diplomatic history, back in
when I studied at the Eisenhower era.

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Some of the documents were declassified.

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So it was interesting to look at them.

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So I studied a lot about Ike.

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And then while I was studying,
I figure out, like, actually,

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I want to have a little bit more
frameworks, guidance in how people behave.

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History or at least how it was taught
in, in, in Zurich and gave me that.

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So I switched to economics,
which has a really, really strong view

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of how people behave.

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You know, they are perfectly rational,

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they calculate optimally
and they optimize their self-interest.

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And I was interested.

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But then I figured out, pretty soon

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that that definitely doesn't
reflect how I behave.

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Because I'm definitely not rational.

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A lot of the time it's.

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A yes and. Right. That's true. Yeah.

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But it's. Yes.

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Exactly.

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I mean, it's probably better to assume
that people are just randomizing you know,

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assuming that they kind of think,

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yeah, what are the costs and benefit?

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And it's probably better to assume
that not everybody is

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Mother Theresa,
and is completely selfless.

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But but it's definitely not, as you said,
you know, exactly exactly true.

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And so then I studied more and more about,
like,

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how people actually behave,
how they help each other.

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My my PhD was about non self
non selfish behavior.

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The economics of non selfless behavior.

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And then I came to the US
for for nine months.

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That was the plan.

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I was at the Kennedy School and Harvard

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with with a scholarship from Switzerland

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and then wanted to go back after nine
months.

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And, and I was in 2005, I'm still here.

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I then joined the, the fed,

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Federal Reserve Bank in Boston.

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They just started a center on behavioral
economics and decision making.

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That was kind of when behavioral economics
really took off.

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So the Federal Reserve Bank
thought like, well, we need to know

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a little more about
like how people actually maybe we were can

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we can we make our models better
and so forth.

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And so I worked there
for a couple of years,

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and then I joined Columbia.

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The business school
in 2008 as an assistant professor.

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And I'll work my way through here now,

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the book, how it came to my book.

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Yeah.

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And the reason that I,
I kind of wanted you to say more.

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I mean, I often ask that question,

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and but but I'm, I think the behavioral
economics piece of this is useful

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because this is a book about,
you know, putting employees first.

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Right?

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The subtitle, the title of the podcast,
How Putting People First Helps

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Business Thrive. Okay, cool.

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Most people would probably

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assume
that the author is like a psychologist.

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I was at Penn and Positive psychology.

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And maybe there's like some employee
engagement stuff in here,

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and which there is.

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But my point is,
the perspective that you come at this from

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is probably not what people were expecting
or might expect,

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even when they pick up the book
or are listening to us.

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And so, so now with me
giving that preamble to tell us

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a little bit more about the book,
and then we're going to dive.

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We're going to really read a.

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Perfect I mean, I, I yes, thanks.

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So I, I tried to describe it
and I was like,

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it's in the intersection of business
strata,

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behavioral economics
and the future of work.

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So I, I come through it from
I teach at Columbia, our students

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for years, thousands of students
about like business strategy.

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You know, how Walmart can do better.

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What's the problem with Disney?

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Whether PepsiCo should get rid

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of their snacks division
and and so on and so forth.

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And and for the longest time,
I started by, like,

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just thinking about customers, you know,
we would start like, in the intro lecture,

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I would say, well, there was like,
you know, the success of a business

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depends on the customers
and the competitors and the employees.

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And, let's not think about the customers.

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And then the whole class
was about the customers.

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And then my research I would do
understand, like, how do people work?

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Why do they motivate it?

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And I did not combine it
for the longest time.

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I kept it very separate actually.

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And and only

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the, after the pandemic,

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I realized, you know,
something is really broken

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and how we engage with our workforce
and I'm at fault.

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I'm teaching
all those future leaders about business.

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And and as all of our customers,

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while I know a lot actually

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about how humans behave,
and that's the behavioral aspect to it,

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how humans actually make decisions, why
they work, why they get up in the morning,

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and how that can actually help businesses
to be successful.

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And so that's
when I started to combining it.

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Now, you know, technology
obviously plays a role.

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I then started to teach
about the future of work.

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And through throughout the book,
I also want to say

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I think enough of like,
you know, how technology can help.

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So that's kind of the third part.

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So there is business strategy,
which is pretty much economic,

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you know, like how in competition
can we beat the others and whatever.

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And then there is a part
about behavioral economics, which is like,

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you know, how do people actually make
how do they actually work?

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What motivates them?

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And, you know, at the behavioral part is
but it's not just money.

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It's much more
than just like the paycheck.

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And then there
is kind of the future of work aspects of

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what can we now do with technology
in order to make that better?

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You, you, you

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you wrote something early in the book,
and I don't remember the, the ratio.

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I'm going to say a number
and it'll be wrong,

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but you said that something
like 70% of the writing and 70%

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of the teaching about business
is about like,

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a 70 or 80% is about the customer versus
the employee.

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And I, I may have the numbers wrong,
but I'm right directionally.

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And so now I want you to give us

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the business case,

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why we need to

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to not only think about the customer and,
but we need to think about.

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Yeah, our teams, our folks, our people.

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Right? Right. Absolutely.

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So it's about.

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Yeah.

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Your your ballpark,
completely right about, the ratio.

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So I'm actually got a little obsessed
for a while, like looking, you know,

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how people, how often do executives
talk about customers and employees?

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Ten times more on average.

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How do they talk about customers?

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Well, the customers are like growth
and opportunities,

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and the employees are like risk and cost.

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And like all those, like, painful,

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stuff.

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And it's it's everywhere.

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It's like board member
background, strategy

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books, research on strategy
and so on and so forth.

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So, so what's the what's the case
for business case for, employees?

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I think there is one is just like, what,
what what engaged employees give us.

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And then there is the other. Why?

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00:12:18,362 --> 00:12:22,575
I believe it's becoming more important
and not less going forward.

240
00:12:22,867 --> 00:12:26,746
So the the what the benefit of like

241
00:12:26,787 --> 00:12:29,790
having really engaged, motivated,

242
00:12:30,666 --> 00:12:33,252
employees is, you know, productivity goes

243
00:12:33,252 --> 00:12:37,965
up, people are working harder,
and better, doing

244
00:12:37,965 --> 00:12:40,968
so they're, they're more innovative.

245
00:12:42,386 --> 00:12:45,389
They come up with new ideas,

246
00:12:45,389 --> 00:12:47,808
much more than when they are checked out.

247
00:12:47,808 --> 00:12:50,436
Or they share them.
They might be. Yeah, exactly.

248
00:12:50,436 --> 00:12:52,146
They know what's the point, right?

249
00:12:52,146 --> 00:12:53,230
Absolutely, Kevin.

250
00:12:53,230 --> 00:12:56,233
You know, like they actually share them
because they care,

251
00:12:56,275 --> 00:12:58,652
about the organization as well.

252
00:12:58,652 --> 00:13:02,198
They leave less,
you know, quit rates are going down.

253
00:13:02,198 --> 00:13:03,491
Turnover is going down.

254
00:13:04,450 --> 00:13:08,496
And and if they have connections
with customers,

255
00:13:08,829 --> 00:13:11,624
you know, there is
I don't believe there is any business

256
00:13:11,624 --> 00:13:14,919
where like, you can have happy customers
without happy employees.

257
00:13:15,294 --> 00:13:18,756
So the customer service
and whatever directly depends

258
00:13:19,340 --> 00:13:22,343
on how engaged and motivated,

259
00:13:22,843 --> 00:13:24,970
the, the workforce is.

260
00:13:24,970 --> 00:13:29,767
I would even, I would even at the end of
the day, people don't buy from companies.

261
00:13:29,767 --> 00:13:30,768
They buy from people.

262
00:13:30,768 --> 00:13:33,521
So it's not just customer
service is also sales, in my opinion.

263
00:13:33,521 --> 00:13:34,772
Yeah. Absolutely.

264
00:13:34,772 --> 00:13:37,066
We could we could make that.

265
00:13:37,066 --> 00:13:40,778
We can make that
tie more than just anecdotally.

266
00:13:40,986 --> 00:13:43,322
Yeah. No, I could not agree more.

267
00:13:43,322 --> 00:13:47,785
You know, and like if companies that some
that I talk about like your Costco

268
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,789
you know like the people
they treat their employees well you know,

269
00:13:51,789 --> 00:13:53,874
they give them a clear career path.

270
00:13:53,874 --> 00:13:57,002
So people actually come in
and know how they can make a career.

271
00:13:57,419 --> 00:14:00,130
And as a result,
the customer is super happy.

272
00:14:00,130 --> 00:14:03,133
Now, what what does it get you
with a happy customers?

273
00:14:03,133 --> 00:14:07,638
Well, sales
per square foot goes up and in Costco

274
00:14:07,763 --> 00:14:11,058
there are so loyal,
you know, that they pay subscription fees.

275
00:14:12,142 --> 00:14:15,062
They're so loyal that they love
the private label.

276
00:14:15,062 --> 00:14:18,274
You know, they love the Kirkland,
which the margins are higher.

277
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,485
You're talking my word
that I can't go on a date.

278
00:14:21,569 --> 00:14:24,572
What do you talking about?

279
00:14:24,822 --> 00:14:26,740
And so you kind of see, just

280
00:14:26,740 --> 00:14:29,743
with Costco, like,
almost all the benefits,

281
00:14:30,703 --> 00:14:33,455
that, that, that help businesses.

282
00:14:33,455 --> 00:14:37,751
And at the CEO of, of, of Costco
just recently

283
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,336
before Congress, you know, say that.

284
00:14:39,336 --> 00:14:41,547
Well, it's like this is not altruism.

285
00:14:41,547 --> 00:14:43,299
This is good business.

286
00:14:43,299 --> 00:14:46,468
Because it gives us
a competitive advantage.

287
00:14:47,261 --> 00:14:50,472
And and it's
and I actually think it's more,

288
00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:53,642
you know, the experience
and the employees have

289
00:14:53,767 --> 00:14:57,688
is actually becoming more important
and not less, going forward.

290
00:14:58,147 --> 00:14:58,814
You know.

291
00:14:58,814 --> 00:15:00,691
I want to talk more about that. Okay.

292
00:15:00,691 --> 00:15:04,778
I want sure, I want to go on
I want to kind of keep on this tension

293
00:15:04,778 --> 00:15:08,073
between customer and employee
just for a second.

294
00:15:08,115 --> 00:15:09,825
And, and I want to go back to,

295
00:15:11,452 --> 00:15:12,703
a book that was famous a long

296
00:15:12,703 --> 00:15:16,290
time ago,
with written, co-written by Tom Peters,

297
00:15:16,540 --> 00:15:19,543
who I was thankful
to have on the show twice.

298
00:15:20,085 --> 00:15:23,297
But he made
he and Bob Waterman made Stu Leonard

299
00:15:23,297 --> 00:15:26,508
famous
for the sign that the customer two rules.

300
00:15:26,508 --> 00:15:27,968
The customer is always right.

301
00:15:27,968 --> 00:15:30,596
And number two,
if you don't think number rules, right,

302
00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:31,972
I mean, refer to number one, right?

303
00:15:31,972 --> 00:15:34,016
So like, the customer is always right.

304
00:15:34,016 --> 00:15:37,144
So are you saying then here
if we're going to be like,

305
00:15:37,394 --> 00:15:40,814
putting our focus on the employee
and the employee experience,

306
00:15:40,814 --> 00:15:43,817
are we saying then
that employees are always right?

307
00:15:45,235 --> 00:15:47,821
No. Well, okay.

308
00:15:47,821 --> 00:15:49,990
For the answer because I guess. Look.

309
00:15:49,990 --> 00:15:52,743
Yeah, but I wanted us to talk about.
So say more. So.

310
00:15:52,743 --> 00:15:53,827
So first of all, I.

311
00:15:53,827 --> 00:15:57,748
Actually don't think it's even right
that the customer is always right.

312
00:15:57,748 --> 00:15:58,874
I would agree with.

313
00:15:58,874 --> 00:16:01,460
You, but that's the best way
to frame the question.

314
00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:02,711
Yes. No, absolutely.

315
00:16:02,711 --> 00:16:05,714
I mean, and you hear that
all the time, you know, the customer and

316
00:16:06,757 --> 00:16:07,758
I think

317
00:16:07,758 --> 00:16:11,178
the best that the right customers
might be always right,

318
00:16:11,679 --> 00:16:17,017
but with the employees,
there is obviously too much of like,

319
00:16:17,685 --> 00:16:20,646
you know, what we what we want to achieve

320
00:16:20,896 --> 00:16:24,191
is that's why I,
I try to be a little careful with, like,

321
00:16:24,191 --> 00:16:27,945
happy employees
because when you really when you,

322
00:16:28,153 --> 00:16:32,199
when your objective is to make people
happy, employees happy, just happy,

323
00:16:33,450 --> 00:16:36,370
you know,
send them to the beach in Florida,

324
00:16:36,370 --> 00:16:38,706
you know, like they should on vacation.

325
00:16:38,706 --> 00:16:42,668
Like, but but what you will want
is really engaged

326
00:16:42,668 --> 00:16:45,671
and motivated, employees.

327
00:16:45,796 --> 00:16:49,508
That means we have to make,
like, clear choices about that.

328
00:16:49,508 --> 00:16:55,055
You know, in the book, I talk about Etsy
as an example in that chapter at Etsy

329
00:16:55,347 --> 00:16:58,350
was like the most,

330
00:16:58,934 --> 00:17:00,853
employee friendly organization,

331
00:17:00,853 --> 00:17:06,525
the best food, the amazing cafeteria,
you know, pottery classes and yoga

332
00:17:06,525 --> 00:17:11,238
classes and reading rooms and like,
you name it, it was amazing.

333
00:17:11,530 --> 00:17:14,700
The only problem
they lost like $30 million a year.

334
00:17:15,701 --> 00:17:18,746
And so the new CEO comes in and say, like,

335
00:17:18,954 --> 00:17:22,041
look, we can't
I mean, we can't continue that.

336
00:17:22,499 --> 00:17:26,295
We I want to be employee centric,
but this went too far

337
00:17:26,795 --> 00:17:31,216
and he had to make quite dramatic cuts
at the beginning.

338
00:17:32,051 --> 00:17:37,306
And, you know, the some of the,
the those lavish programs didn't continue

339
00:17:37,723 --> 00:17:41,101
is still a very employee
centric organization,

340
00:17:41,101 --> 00:17:45,230
but much more aligned with what
the strategy actually is in Etsy.

341
00:17:45,481 --> 00:17:51,195
A big part of what Etsy does is like
helps small, you know, in the autism.

342
00:17:51,278 --> 00:17:54,907
Turns out a lot of those artists
are female, for example.

343
00:17:54,907 --> 00:17:58,869
And they're like the little guy, you know,
like or sell whatever their pottery

344
00:17:58,869 --> 00:18:02,706
and like fight against, like the Chinese
imports and so on and so forth.

345
00:18:02,956 --> 00:18:09,338
So, so diversity and kind of helping
those small, sometimes not as well

346
00:18:09,338 --> 00:18:12,674
organized consumers is, well consumer

347
00:18:12,674 --> 00:18:16,303
like the producers is, is very important.

348
00:18:16,303 --> 00:18:20,307
So that's a core,
a core value that, Etsy still has.

349
00:18:21,183 --> 00:18:25,270
They actually have a much
higher proportion of female executives

350
00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:29,024
than like, a lot of comparable
like e-commerce platforms.

351
00:18:29,399 --> 00:18:32,111
And so they're really true to their,

352
00:18:32,111 --> 00:18:34,988
their they are employee centric.

353
00:18:34,988 --> 00:18:36,115
But there is limits.

354
00:18:36,115 --> 00:18:37,282
There is just certainly I mean,

355
00:18:38,242 --> 00:18:40,202
there is very few people

356
00:18:40,202 --> 00:18:44,581
who leave or join a company
because they have a breathing room.

357
00:18:45,582 --> 00:18:46,959
You know, good. News, everybody.

358
00:18:46,959 --> 00:18:48,919
We got a behavioral economics
economist here.

359
00:18:48,919 --> 00:18:51,922
We are not talking about ping
pong tables and breathing room.

360
00:18:53,924 --> 00:18:54,508
And I got a question

361
00:18:54,508 --> 00:18:57,553
I really want to ask,
but I need us to get into some of the,

362
00:18:57,553 --> 00:18:59,805
you know, like,
I wanted us to make the case.

363
00:18:59,805 --> 00:19:02,766
And obviously,
I want people to go buy a book because,

364
00:19:03,308 --> 00:19:05,978
it will be of great value to you
if you do.

365
00:19:05,978 --> 00:19:08,981
But we need to talk a little bit about,

366
00:19:09,148 --> 00:19:11,650
what is it that creates this engagement?

367
00:19:11,650 --> 00:19:15,195
What is it
that it really means to put our employees

368
00:19:15,195 --> 00:19:18,198
first, the to be employee centric and,

369
00:19:18,532 --> 00:19:20,951
sort of four big things
that you talk about in a way.

370
00:19:20,951 --> 00:19:21,451
Yeah.

371
00:19:21,451 --> 00:19:22,494
And I don't know that we'll have time

372
00:19:22,494 --> 00:19:24,746
to get to all of them,
but we need to go in there.

373
00:19:24,746 --> 00:19:25,998
So let's talk.

374
00:19:25,998 --> 00:19:29,001
Let's talk about you hinted at it earlier.

375
00:19:29,084 --> 00:19:31,461
The people want to come to work
for more than a paycheck.

376
00:19:31,461 --> 00:19:34,840
I always say if you quit paying them,
they will stop coming.

377
00:19:35,132 --> 00:19:37,551
But that's not the main thing or not.

378
00:19:37,551 --> 00:19:38,302
The only thing.

379
00:19:38,302 --> 00:19:41,305
So, like, give us some thoughts about this

380
00:19:41,471 --> 00:19:45,309
from an economics hard data
kind of perspective.

381
00:19:45,809 --> 00:19:46,226
Yeah.

382
00:19:46,226 --> 00:19:49,146
About what is it beyond the paycheck?

383
00:19:49,146 --> 00:19:50,856
Yes, yes. So

384
00:19:51,815 --> 00:19:53,525
yeah, I mean,

385
00:19:53,525 --> 00:19:56,945
if just for introspection, very few of us

386
00:19:57,696 --> 00:20:00,782
get up in the morning and say, like

387
00:20:01,491 --> 00:20:04,620
today, I'm going to increase the return

388
00:20:04,620 --> 00:20:08,874
on invested capital for my company
by one percentage point.

389
00:20:08,874 --> 00:20:09,499
Like.

390
00:20:09,499 --> 00:20:12,294
Yes, we're moving the EBITDA line
today, baby.

391
00:20:12,294 --> 00:20:14,171
Yes, yes.

392
00:20:14,171 --> 00:20:17,090
Very, very few people people do that.

393
00:20:17,090 --> 00:20:19,134
I mean, they might be some,

394
00:20:19,134 --> 00:20:22,137
you know, people are very different,
but like the majority

395
00:20:23,055 --> 00:20:25,599
doesn't, they get out of bed,

396
00:20:25,599 --> 00:20:29,144
and are really, really motivated
by different things than just money.

397
00:20:29,144 --> 00:20:30,646
Now, don't get me wrong.

398
00:20:30,646 --> 00:20:32,272
If you don't make enough money

399
00:20:32,272 --> 00:20:35,275
and you kind of have to worry
about making ends meet,

400
00:20:35,317 --> 00:20:38,779
that's a killer to productivity as well,
because you're occupied all the time.

401
00:20:39,071 --> 00:20:42,574
So like getting up a certain level
beyond a certain

402
00:20:42,574 --> 00:20:45,619
threshold
and some security is critically important.

403
00:20:45,619 --> 00:20:46,995
But once you pass that

404
00:20:48,455 --> 00:20:51,583
know, now and we know actually know.

405
00:20:51,583 --> 00:20:54,878
And here is now the behavioral science
that we actually know a lot

406
00:20:55,254 --> 00:20:58,298
about what motivates people
or what gets them out of bed.

407
00:20:58,715 --> 00:21:02,052
And I talk about four of those motivators.

408
00:21:02,427 --> 00:21:04,596
The first one is purpose.

409
00:21:04,596 --> 00:21:09,601
You know, how to actually have purpose
that is like an impact,

410
00:21:09,601 --> 00:21:12,980
a meaning that goes beyond
solving a problem.

411
00:21:14,022 --> 00:21:17,025
And that could obviously differs
from what people,

412
00:21:17,025 --> 00:21:20,112
you know, some people get,
you know, a children's heart, you know,

413
00:21:20,112 --> 00:21:23,991
helping
kids or like, helping complicated problems

414
00:21:23,991 --> 00:21:27,160
to make the world a better place,
so to speak.

415
00:21:27,744 --> 00:21:29,621
Is is really important.

416
00:21:29,621 --> 00:21:31,707
I mean, I call it shoot for the moon.

417
00:21:31,707 --> 00:21:35,377
And maybe in my
that I wanted to become an astronaut.

418
00:21:36,461 --> 00:21:39,548
Kicks through because, like,
you know, the famous example

419
00:21:39,548 --> 00:21:40,966
when, like, President Kennedy,

420
00:21:42,009 --> 00:21:43,093
said, like

421
00:21:43,093 --> 00:21:46,930
the only goal now NASA has
is to bring a man to the moon

422
00:21:47,306 --> 00:21:48,765
and kind of shifted that mission

423
00:21:48,765 --> 00:21:52,811
within seven years,
which was a very, very ambitious, goal.

424
00:21:53,061 --> 00:21:58,942
But but it actually invigorated, like
the whole organization to the janitor who,

425
00:21:58,942 --> 00:22:02,362
you know, and this famous quotes as like,
you know, I'm not mopping the floor.

426
00:22:02,362 --> 00:22:03,905
I'm bringing the man to the moon.

427
00:22:03,905 --> 00:22:09,619
That's what got this janitor, I think, out
of bed and like, let's do that job.

428
00:22:09,661 --> 00:22:11,288
Well, two purposes. One.

429
00:22:11,288 --> 00:22:15,584
The second is autonomy or being empowered.

430
00:22:15,584 --> 00:22:18,545
I call it a matter of trust,
because that's kind of the flip side.

431
00:22:18,962 --> 00:22:24,092
People like to have discretion
and have flexibility and being

432
00:22:24,343 --> 00:22:26,386
and part of it is being trusted.

433
00:22:26,386 --> 00:22:29,514
You know, like if I'm working for you
and you say, like,

434
00:22:29,723 --> 00:22:33,727
Kevin's a Kevin believes in
that, I can actually do this.

435
00:22:35,020 --> 00:22:37,105
And I can now figure out for

436
00:22:37,105 --> 00:22:40,108
myself what I want to do
and how I want to solve the problem.

437
00:22:40,150 --> 00:22:42,319
I think that's that's really powerful.

438
00:22:42,319 --> 00:22:45,322
A lot of people become self-employed
just for that,

439
00:22:45,489 --> 00:22:49,159
because it's like being your own
boss is a good thing.

440
00:22:49,451 --> 00:22:51,370
Is very, very powerful.

441
00:22:51,370 --> 00:22:52,662
So that's number two.

442
00:22:52,662 --> 00:22:54,998
The third is competence.

443
00:22:54,998 --> 00:22:58,001
I call it just the right tasks.

444
00:22:58,043 --> 00:23:01,088
And, it's about kind of having a task

445
00:23:01,088 --> 00:23:05,050
that is that optimally challenges
you, you know, it's

446
00:23:05,050 --> 00:23:08,053
not boring and it's not.

447
00:23:08,053 --> 00:23:11,056
And it's also not, overwhelming.

448
00:23:11,306 --> 00:23:14,309
I have to tell you,
that is the title of that chapter

449
00:23:14,393 --> 00:23:17,312
and the opening story that you tell

450
00:23:17,312 --> 00:23:19,564
is, is, is

451
00:23:19,564 --> 00:23:22,651
is the best metaphor for this ever?

452
00:23:23,985 --> 00:23:26,405
Which is this idea of just it's

453
00:23:26,405 --> 00:23:31,785
the just right, the just amount enough
but not too much is is really great.

454
00:23:31,785 --> 00:23:35,580
So this idea of just enough,
just right tasks, a level of

455
00:23:36,331 --> 00:23:40,210
we are motivated by having our ability to,

456
00:23:40,544 --> 00:23:43,422
to be, to show our competence,
to grow our competence and all that.

457
00:23:43,422 --> 00:23:44,923
It's just it's excellent.

458
00:23:44,923 --> 00:23:49,302
And then number one, so we've got purpose,
autonomy, competence and.

459
00:23:50,011 --> 00:23:54,808
And and relatedness
or I call it working together works

460
00:23:54,933 --> 00:23:58,687
that you know having
and we can most relate to,

461
00:23:58,687 --> 00:24:01,690
you know, if you
if you, if you played on a sports team

462
00:24:01,731 --> 00:24:05,819
that really worked well, you know,
you can achieve a lot.

463
00:24:05,819 --> 00:24:10,157
You can you can outperform kind
of the individual qualities of the players

464
00:24:10,699 --> 00:24:11,616
if you do it right.

465
00:24:11,616 --> 00:24:14,411
And that's true for organizations as well.

466
00:24:14,411 --> 00:24:16,204
It's very, very motivating

467
00:24:16,204 --> 00:24:20,041
to have like the right team
and so on and so but but it's also hard.

468
00:24:20,083 --> 00:24:24,337
It's a hard part because humans
can be really, really nasty,

469
00:24:25,213 --> 00:24:28,633
to each other
and, you know, can be really toxic.

470
00:24:28,633 --> 00:24:33,722
And managing this in the right way
and unlocking kind of the power of this

471
00:24:33,722 --> 00:24:38,768
working together works is is critical,
but but hard as well.

472
00:24:38,894 --> 00:24:39,936
100%. So,

473
00:24:41,313 --> 00:24:42,481
you said that

474
00:24:42,481 --> 00:24:43,899
one of the intersections of this book

475
00:24:43,899 --> 00:24:46,693
is the future of work,
and you and I didn't talk about this,

476
00:24:46,693 --> 00:24:50,280
but I've written three books about that
too long distance leader, long distance

477
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:51,615
teammate, long distance team.

478
00:24:51,615 --> 00:24:53,408
And there's sort of a lot of connections

479
00:24:53,408 --> 00:24:56,411
between what you talk about here
and what we talk about.

480
00:24:56,536 --> 00:24:59,498
And I think we're very much in alignment
in all of that.

481
00:25:00,457 --> 00:25:02,167
And I think that that's that's great.

482
00:25:02,167 --> 00:25:06,421
I'm curious, from your perspective,
you mentioned technology earlier.

483
00:25:06,671 --> 00:25:09,466
How does technology and how does

484
00:25:09,466 --> 00:25:12,427
remote work, hybrid work, virtual work?

485
00:25:12,427 --> 00:25:15,430
Pickett
and I know they're they're different, but,

486
00:25:16,515 --> 00:25:19,392
how does what's the connection
between those four things

487
00:25:19,392 --> 00:25:22,395
purpose,
autonomy, competence and relatedness?

488
00:25:23,730 --> 00:25:25,899
And how do they connect in the, in the,

489
00:25:25,899 --> 00:25:29,653
in this new world of work and, and what's
the role of technology and all that?

490
00:25:31,738 --> 00:25:34,324
Yeah, that's a super interesting question.

491
00:25:34,324 --> 00:25:38,078
And I think throughout the book,
I want to emphasize and hopefully

492
00:25:38,453 --> 00:25:41,498
bring like examples like technology

493
00:25:41,498 --> 00:25:45,460
can destroy a lot of those motivators
but also enhance them.

494
00:25:45,794 --> 00:25:49,214
So let's think about like autonomy.

495
00:25:50,382 --> 00:25:53,343
And, you know,
remote work is an interesting one

496
00:25:53,343 --> 00:25:58,056
because it kind of taps
into two motivators in different ways.

497
00:25:58,515 --> 00:26:02,561
You know, it's it provides the flexibility
and the autonomy.

498
00:26:02,936 --> 00:26:06,606
And if you really want to optimize that,
you know, you should say, like,

499
00:26:06,731 --> 00:26:09,985
you know, fully remote people can come
whenever they want or not.

500
00:26:10,777 --> 00:26:13,905
But another motivator is working together,
works, being together,

501
00:26:13,905 --> 00:26:16,950
having those social interactions
that are really powerful.

502
00:26:16,950 --> 00:26:19,953
And if you want to maximize that,
maybe everybody should come to the office

503
00:26:20,328 --> 00:26:20,996
all the time.

504
00:26:20,996 --> 00:26:24,833
Now, we're obviously
not we're not having tension.

505
00:26:24,833 --> 00:26:27,711
Between those two, right? Yes.
There is this tension.

506
00:26:27,711 --> 00:26:28,253
There is.

507
00:26:28,253 --> 00:26:31,256
But it's also, you know,
people want to talk to executives.

508
00:26:31,256 --> 00:26:36,928
You know, they they they complain about
a lot of things when it comes to remote.

509
00:26:36,928 --> 00:26:40,515
And I'm, I'm a big proponent of hybrid,
if done well.

510
00:26:40,724 --> 00:26:45,312
But they, for example, say like, well,
you know, there's less watercooler moments

511
00:26:45,562 --> 00:26:49,024
or maybe nowadays
kombucha tap moment or whatever it is.

512
00:26:49,524 --> 00:26:51,943
And, The country is water cooler.

513
00:26:51,943 --> 00:26:52,569
Let me be clear.

514
00:26:52,569 --> 00:26:55,655
Yes, maybe not at Columbia,
but in most of the world, it's still the.

515
00:26:55,655 --> 00:26:59,826
Way the we don't have a computer that but
we have a very, very good coffee machine.

516
00:26:59,826 --> 00:27:00,410
I have to say,

517
00:27:01,453 --> 00:27:03,580
it's the Nespresso machine.

518
00:27:03,580 --> 00:27:07,626
Moments
now, I'm not having 40 hours a week

519
00:27:07,626 --> 00:27:10,629
Nespresso machine moments.

520
00:27:10,712 --> 00:27:14,841
And, and I, I'm also being very creative.

521
00:27:14,841 --> 00:27:17,969
If I have two days a week, no interaction.

522
00:27:17,969 --> 00:27:22,390
In fact, I have two days a week
where I don't talk to any of my colleagues

523
00:27:22,390 --> 00:27:26,561
and we call it weekend
and the world is not falling apart.

524
00:27:27,437 --> 00:27:30,148
When we do that now, I have trouble

525
00:27:30,148 --> 00:27:33,234
sometimes keeping the weekend, you know,
because I work a lot.

526
00:27:33,234 --> 00:27:36,488
But the idea is
we coordinate on two days to do nothing.

527
00:27:37,197 --> 00:27:38,490
Couldn't we coordinate?

528
00:27:38,490 --> 00:27:43,119
Unlike some days we work at home,
and then when we actually come in,

529
00:27:43,536 --> 00:27:47,916
we might have more coffee moments or,
like, moments that we work together.

530
00:27:48,166 --> 00:27:49,584
But you're absolutely right.

531
00:27:49,584 --> 00:27:52,587
Having that,
there is this tension between,

532
00:27:52,796 --> 00:27:57,425
you know, flexibility and
and working together works.

533
00:27:58,051 --> 00:28:01,763
Now when, you know, technology
can help in other aspects.

534
00:28:01,763 --> 00:28:05,016
So when we just right tasks, for example,

535
00:28:05,642 --> 00:28:08,853
you know, when I sometimes
tell my leaders,

536
00:28:08,853 --> 00:28:12,065
it's like because it just right past
or some move, you know, they once

537
00:28:12,065 --> 00:28:15,276
you mastered something
then becomes boring, then you have to

538
00:28:16,152 --> 00:28:19,572
and so I tell leaders, okay,
so this is now it's easy,

539
00:28:19,572 --> 00:28:22,951
you know, now, you know, now it's
just for all your team members.

540
00:28:23,368 --> 00:28:26,371
You have to figure out
what they're just right task is

541
00:28:26,621 --> 00:28:30,083
match it to the just right
task and constantly update.

542
00:28:31,251 --> 00:28:32,377
That's all you have to do.

543
00:28:32,377 --> 00:28:36,881
And they look at me as like, dude,
you know, it's like the world I have.

544
00:28:36,881 --> 00:28:38,341
Yeah, I have like,

545
00:28:38,341 --> 00:28:41,678
you know, even if you only have like
five members of the team, that's hard.

546
00:28:41,886 --> 00:28:44,889
You know, not talking about
you have like hundred people is on it.

547
00:28:45,849 --> 00:28:47,976
And then I say, well, yeah, it's hard, but

548
00:28:47,976 --> 00:28:52,230
doesn't that sound a little bit
like an AI task where like in

549
00:28:52,272 --> 00:28:56,735
if you think Netflix, you know,
Netflix does is figures out

550
00:28:57,318 --> 00:29:00,280
what does Kevin watch and like oh,

551
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,283
he watches like I'm now assuming,

552
00:29:03,658 --> 00:29:06,661
he watches like, business documentaries

553
00:29:06,786 --> 00:29:10,123
and let's show him more business
documentaries.

554
00:29:10,457 --> 00:29:13,209
And now Kevin is like after a while

555
00:29:13,209 --> 00:29:16,212
and I watch like nature show, so whatever.

556
00:29:16,421 --> 00:29:22,051
And but after a while, Kevin gets bored
of, like, you know, more and more business

557
00:29:22,051 --> 00:29:27,766
documentaries and, and started to watch
more dramas and now oh Netflix makes it.

558
00:29:27,766 --> 00:29:31,186
Oh Kevin
actually he now he now watches dramas.

559
00:29:31,269 --> 00:29:32,937
Let's show him now more dramas.

560
00:29:33,897 --> 00:29:35,356
And so on and so forth.

561
00:29:35,356 --> 00:29:38,151
Now that's the same that like technology

562
00:29:38,151 --> 00:29:42,238
can do in organizations
and some actually use that.

563
00:29:42,238 --> 00:29:46,117
So internal marketplaces
that are power tools

564
00:29:46,451 --> 00:29:49,496
where people come,
you know, to the platform.

565
00:29:49,746 --> 00:29:53,166
And so like, I want to learn a new skill,
I want to be in another project,

566
00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:56,503
then it matches it with project,

567
00:29:56,669 --> 00:29:58,963
and it learns over time.

568
00:29:58,963 --> 00:30:01,966
Oh, Stephane was now
just on a social media platform,

569
00:30:02,175 --> 00:30:05,136
social media project in

570
00:30:05,428 --> 00:30:08,139
whatever I while I live in the US,
one of my

571
00:30:08,139 --> 00:30:11,684
in my organization, they want to launch
something in Switzerland on social media.

572
00:30:11,684 --> 00:30:14,687
Now I know I happen to know
something about Switzerland.

573
00:30:15,438 --> 00:30:17,982
And so I'm now on that project,

574
00:30:17,982 --> 00:30:20,443
the database now updates.

575
00:30:20,443 --> 00:30:21,861
Stefan has a new skill.

576
00:30:21,861 --> 00:30:22,403
He actually.

577
00:30:22,403 --> 00:30:25,490
Now law is something about social media
and so the project

578
00:30:25,490 --> 00:30:29,202
that he can show me later and so on
and so forth, you kind of get the idea.

579
00:30:29,202 --> 00:30:32,205
It's like taking the this technology

580
00:30:32,622 --> 00:30:35,333
and do exactly what we do with customers,

581
00:30:35,333 --> 00:30:38,461
you know, learn how to personalize
and so on and so forth.

582
00:30:38,461 --> 00:30:41,422
And that enhances the motivation.

583
00:30:41,422 --> 00:30:44,217
Surveillance technologies in remote work

584
00:30:45,677 --> 00:30:47,846
kills,

585
00:30:47,846 --> 00:30:51,182
kills, everything about trust.

586
00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:53,351
And it's really hard.

587
00:30:53,351 --> 00:30:57,188
I mean, we've all been in relationships
where trust was broken.

588
00:30:57,522 --> 00:31:01,609
It's very, very hard to regain, once the,

589
00:31:02,443 --> 00:31:05,154
the trust relationship is gone,

590
00:31:05,154 --> 00:31:08,157
it's really,
really difficult to build it up.

591
00:31:08,199 --> 00:31:10,660
And I would even argue we can say that
about any part of our life.

592
00:31:10,660 --> 00:31:13,663
But I would even argue that when.

593
00:31:14,247 --> 00:31:16,332
When people feel like they can't aren't

594
00:31:16,332 --> 00:31:20,253
being trusted by management,
just use that blanket term.

595
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:25,258
It's even harder for that to come back,
because societally

596
00:31:25,592 --> 00:31:29,137
we already have a starting point,
distrust in that group.

597
00:31:29,220 --> 00:31:32,265
So like if we've built it
and then lost it, we're like, see,

598
00:31:32,807 --> 00:31:34,350
this is the way it's always been.

599
00:31:34,350 --> 00:31:36,519
That's why we have what we called
Horrible Bosses.

600
00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:37,854
And everyone went and watched it. Right.

601
00:31:37,854 --> 00:31:42,483
Like so I think it's even it's
that is completely 100% true.

602
00:31:42,483 --> 00:31:46,195
And I think it's perhaps
it's the yoke that we bear as leaders,

603
00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:50,408
that man when we when we break it in

604
00:31:50,408 --> 00:31:53,912
those sorts of ways, it's even harder
in many cases to to.

605
00:31:54,203 --> 00:31:55,330
Yeah. Back.

606
00:31:55,330 --> 00:31:58,458
And maybe we could argue, although
we don't have time to go down this path,

607
00:31:58,833 --> 00:32:02,462
that it might be even harder
to do at a distance, although I think

608
00:32:02,462 --> 00:32:05,965
we both believe we can manage it,
build it and grow it at a distance.

609
00:32:06,424 --> 00:32:09,594
It isn't necessarily obviously easy
to do it.

610
00:32:09,636 --> 00:32:10,720
To do that.

611
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,349
That, I couldn't agree more with, with all
you just said.

612
00:32:14,682 --> 00:32:18,186
Kevin, I think it's
because there is this friction that,

613
00:32:18,186 --> 00:32:22,815
you know, because there is this long
history of mistrust between management.

614
00:32:22,815 --> 00:32:28,655
It just makes it more extreme if it's if
it's broken and the distance does make it.

615
00:32:28,655 --> 00:32:30,823
I do think harder.

616
00:32:30,823 --> 00:32:34,160
You know,
I personally do believe strongly that,

617
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,872
like, in-person personal interactions
are critically important.

618
00:32:38,289 --> 00:32:40,792
Whether we need that five days a week.

619
00:32:40,792 --> 00:32:42,585
I don't think so.

620
00:32:42,585 --> 00:32:44,963
But but but some

621
00:32:44,963 --> 00:32:49,217
that there is something that happens
in personal interactions

622
00:32:49,592 --> 00:32:54,722
that is not so easy to at least
with the technology that we have today

623
00:32:55,264 --> 00:32:59,686
to replicate in, in a virtual
or a remote work environment.

624
00:33:00,436 --> 00:33:03,856
There's so many things that
I would like to talk to you about that

625
00:33:03,940 --> 00:33:06,567
I know that I would like to hope
that you would like to talk to me about,

626
00:33:06,567 --> 00:33:09,070
but we don't have time to do those
things, given sort of the,

627
00:33:10,029 --> 00:33:12,490
normal length of this show.

628
00:33:12,490 --> 00:33:14,867
But I do have a couple of things
I want to ask before we go for,

629
00:33:14,867 --> 00:33:18,037
I guess I will ask,
is there anything I didn't ask

630
00:33:18,037 --> 00:33:20,289
or we didn't talk about that
you'd really like to?

631
00:33:20,289 --> 00:33:20,790
I mean,

632
00:33:20,790 --> 00:33:24,377
is there something that we missed that
you or something last did you like to say

633
00:33:24,377 --> 00:33:27,380
before we sort of start
to close out our conversation?

634
00:33:28,339 --> 00:33:31,926
No, I mean, I, I just think and,
I think we have Kevin.

635
00:33:32,051 --> 00:33:36,222
We're on the same page here,
you know, that, like, leaders,

636
00:33:36,639 --> 00:33:39,851
you know, we kind of need to change
kind of their mindset a little bit,

637
00:33:40,643 --> 00:33:43,062
and think about the world differently.

638
00:33:43,062 --> 00:33:44,605
And, I mean, you're right about that.

639
00:33:44,605 --> 00:33:45,606
And I think

640
00:33:45,606 --> 00:33:50,194
we all try to kind of help each other out,
you know, it's it's it's hard.

641
00:33:50,236 --> 00:33:51,154
You know, it's hard.

642
00:33:51,154 --> 00:33:54,115
I don't it's really, really difficult,

643
00:33:54,115 --> 00:33:56,617
to motivate, to manage teams.

644
00:33:56,617 --> 00:33:57,702
And so the more

645
00:33:58,745 --> 00:34:00,204
the more we can help each other.

646
00:34:00,204 --> 00:34:00,955
And I think that's part

647
00:34:00,955 --> 00:34:04,876
of what I try to do in the book,
like hopefully get like a mindset shift.

648
00:34:05,084 --> 00:34:08,629
Where do your the CEO of, hundred

649
00:34:09,255 --> 00:34:11,924
more 100 plus organization or the

650
00:34:11,924 --> 00:34:14,886
or the leader of like two people?

651
00:34:15,762 --> 00:34:19,807
We we still have to learn
and we constantly have to get better.

652
00:34:19,807 --> 00:34:22,226
And I think that's very important.

653
00:34:22,226 --> 00:34:23,936
And that's why this show exists.

654
00:34:23,936 --> 00:34:26,939
Probably both of those two people
you just described that are here,

655
00:34:27,356 --> 00:34:30,943
watching or later listening,
a couple things before we go.

656
00:34:32,236 --> 00:34:34,030
What do you do, Stefan?

657
00:34:34,030 --> 00:34:37,033
For fun.

658
00:34:38,618 --> 00:34:40,119
So. You just told me

659
00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:43,122
you spent half your weekends working,
so we got to get out of that for a second.

660
00:34:43,247 --> 00:34:44,582
Like, what do you do for fun?

661
00:34:46,292 --> 00:34:49,087
So here is something that I,

662
00:34:49,087 --> 00:34:53,174
that I now do often is, I make,

663
00:34:54,759 --> 00:34:57,762
I make Lego stop motion movies

664
00:34:58,930 --> 00:35:00,681
about work.

665
00:35:00,681 --> 00:35:02,558
So, so it's. It's there a YouTube.

666
00:35:02,558 --> 00:35:04,936
Is there somewhere
we can see the like. Oh, yes.

667
00:35:04,936 --> 00:35:07,897
I've ever had anyone
tell me that ever. Yes.

668
00:35:07,897 --> 00:35:10,149
You can have. A question on the show.

669
00:35:10,149 --> 00:35:13,152
470 the support
and 70 of time of that question.

670
00:35:13,444 --> 00:35:14,237
Yeah.

671
00:35:14,237 --> 00:35:18,324
So I, I yeah I have on my webpage
I mean there are also on YouTube,

672
00:35:18,324 --> 00:35:21,494
but I don't think anybody has subscribed
to my channel, which is fine.

673
00:35:21,702 --> 00:35:24,372
But on, on my webpage
you can, you can look at them.

674
00:35:24,372 --> 00:35:29,001
It actually started all with like I was,
I was really stressed out,

675
00:35:29,043 --> 00:35:31,087
you know, like I wrote the book,

676
00:35:31,087 --> 00:35:34,799
the chair of the division
I teach, I do scholarly work.

677
00:35:35,174 --> 00:35:39,637
I was stressed out, and I found
I needed, like, something to ground me.

678
00:35:39,637 --> 00:35:42,890
And I found this book in a book
in a airport bookstore.

679
00:35:43,099 --> 00:35:45,685
How to make a Lego stop motion movie.

680
00:35:45,685 --> 00:35:48,938
Now, I have three
cats, and I have Lego myself.

681
00:35:48,980 --> 00:35:51,065
I have it, I have a lot of Legos.

682
00:35:51,065 --> 00:35:54,986
So then I started to do those Lego movies
with my phone.

683
00:35:54,986 --> 00:35:57,905
I still do it with my my old iPhone

684
00:35:57,905 --> 00:36:01,325
and move those little minifigures
one after another.

685
00:36:01,325 --> 00:36:03,494
Now it all has to do with work.

686
00:36:03,494 --> 00:36:07,123
You know, they have like
I have a yoga class, or I have a terrible

687
00:36:07,123 --> 00:36:12,128
boss, or the is all related
kind of to my work on my book.

688
00:36:12,128 --> 00:36:15,631
And so that's I spend a lot of time
thinking about those Lego.

689
00:36:16,215 --> 00:36:17,800
There is a space shuttle.

690
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,221
There is a launch of the of the book
is with us with the space shuttle.

691
00:36:22,805 --> 00:36:25,600
So if we go to Stefan meyer.com
we can see these.

692
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,186
Is are you saying you. Can go
Stephan meyer.com.

693
00:36:28,186 --> 00:36:32,982
And then at the bottom it says like brick
brick by brick or something videos.

694
00:36:32,982 --> 00:36:34,442
And then you can see those.

695
00:36:34,442 --> 00:36:34,859
Okay.

696
00:36:34,859 --> 00:36:35,776
Now I have to tell you,

697
00:36:35,776 --> 00:36:38,779
you and I were talking before
we started about marketing books, and,

698
00:36:39,405 --> 00:36:41,449
we have this little
inside baseball conversation.

699
00:36:43,743 --> 00:36:44,994
I will bet

700
00:36:44,994 --> 00:36:48,623
that the percentage of people
that have listened to this show

701
00:36:48,748 --> 00:36:50,833
that click on your website
will be the highest.

702
00:36:50,833 --> 00:36:54,337
I mean, I have no way to read the highest
we've ever had.

703
00:36:55,755 --> 00:36:56,339
It's awesome.

704
00:36:56,339 --> 00:36:58,841
And I promise that I'm going to go
take a look because I haven't done that.

705
00:36:58,841 --> 00:37:00,885
So, now I'm curious as well.

706
00:37:00,885 --> 00:37:03,346
And this is what you knew
I was going to ask you.

707
00:37:03,346 --> 00:37:05,514
And that is like, what are you reading?

708
00:37:05,514 --> 00:37:08,684
Or what's something that you've read
recently that you might share with us?

709
00:37:08,809 --> 00:37:09,435
Yeah.

710
00:37:09,435 --> 00:37:11,604
So the a book the other.

711
00:37:11,604 --> 00:37:13,814
Than how to do Legos, stop action.

712
00:37:13,814 --> 00:37:17,652
Like I need to actually that link
we will put do you know the name of that.

713
00:37:17,652 --> 00:37:19,195
We want that in the show notes.

714
00:37:19,195 --> 00:37:20,780
I have I have it as well.

715
00:37:20,780 --> 00:37:21,822
Yeah you can go

716
00:37:21,822 --> 00:37:26,494
there is actually on the, on my web
page there on the Lego brick by Brick.

717
00:37:26,494 --> 00:37:29,288
There is a little bit
the story behind the Lego movies.

718
00:37:29,288 --> 00:37:32,792
And so I tell this story is
there's actually a link to the book,

719
00:37:33,751 --> 00:37:35,044
that I bought at that time.

720
00:37:35,044 --> 00:37:37,797
And we will put that I will do that
work for you all,

721
00:37:37,797 --> 00:37:39,423
and that will be in the show
notes as well.

722
00:37:39,423 --> 00:37:41,050
But what else are you reading? Okay.

723
00:37:41,050 --> 00:37:46,097
So one book that, that really influenced
me, like, just recently is,

724
00:37:47,348 --> 00:37:49,183
Power and Progress.

725
00:37:49,183 --> 00:37:51,727
It's by, Darren Asimov.

726
00:37:51,727 --> 00:37:56,565
He just won the Nobel Prize
in economics, two, two weeks ago

727
00:37:56,565 --> 00:38:01,153
or so for actually, for something else
because he has a book, and work on like,

728
00:38:01,153 --> 00:38:04,240
why Nations fail,
but he has this new book,

729
00:38:06,158 --> 00:38:09,787
on technology,
basically, and power and progress.

730
00:38:10,246 --> 00:38:13,207
And it's a cautionary tale
about technology.

731
00:38:13,291 --> 00:38:16,085
You know, just not every technology

732
00:38:16,085 --> 00:38:19,088
will lead to shared prosperity.

733
00:38:19,213 --> 00:38:24,176
And he goes through a lot of historic
examples, you know, starting,

734
00:38:24,176 --> 00:38:28,306
I think, with the agrarian revolution
and then like the Industrial Revolution

735
00:38:28,306 --> 00:38:33,686
and so on and so forth, and, and talks
about like what leaders have to do

736
00:38:33,686 --> 00:38:36,939
because in the end, it's decisions
that we have to make.

737
00:38:36,939 --> 00:38:39,191
So that's what I found so powerful.

738
00:38:39,191 --> 00:38:40,609
But it's a it's a long book.

739
00:38:40,609 --> 00:38:44,947
But, I personally I think
it's a worth it's, it's worth reading.

740
00:38:44,947 --> 00:38:46,032
It's a, it's a great book.

741
00:38:46,032 --> 00:38:47,533
We'll have links to both of those.

742
00:38:47,533 --> 00:38:50,077
The Lego book I'm for right now,
I've noticed the Lego

743
00:38:50,077 --> 00:38:53,414
book an hour in progress will have
those will also have a link to your book,

744
00:38:53,956 --> 00:38:54,957
the employee advantage.

745
00:38:54,957 --> 00:38:57,960
How how putting workers first
helps business thrive.

746
00:38:58,336 --> 00:39:00,463
We've already shown the website.
Where else you want to point people?

747
00:39:00,463 --> 00:39:03,591
Anything else you want to say to folks
about connecting with you or anything

748
00:39:03,591 --> 00:39:04,300
before we wrap up?

749
00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:07,303
Yeah, I know,
I think that, on LinkedIn or like,

750
00:39:07,303 --> 00:39:11,015
I actually have a newsletter where
every month I release a new Lego movie.

751
00:39:12,350 --> 00:39:12,933
So with the

752
00:39:12,933 --> 00:39:16,520
newsletter comes like a new a new Lego
movie.

753
00:39:16,812 --> 00:39:18,647
They're sure, you know,
they're not allowing movies.

754
00:39:18,647 --> 00:39:21,650
And so they're like, consumable,
but hopefully fun.

755
00:39:21,817 --> 00:39:24,820
Funny.

756
00:39:24,987 --> 00:39:25,780
Before we go,

757
00:39:25,780 --> 00:39:29,075
everybody, before I say goodbye to Stefan,
I need to do what I do for you all.

758
00:39:29,075 --> 00:39:31,660
Every week. I ask you the same question
on every episode.

759
00:39:31,660 --> 00:39:33,496
I'm going to ask it again today.

760
00:39:33,496 --> 00:39:34,747
And it is now. What?

761
00:39:34,747 --> 00:39:35,956
What action will you take?

762
00:39:35,956 --> 00:39:38,459
Because you were here like what I did,
did you get.

763
00:39:38,459 --> 00:39:40,544
I'm not asking you.
Like what did you learn?

764
00:39:40,544 --> 00:39:43,506
I'm asking
what will you do with what you learned.

765
00:39:43,506 --> 00:39:47,093
And so, you know,
obviously I would like to hope that you go

766
00:39:47,093 --> 00:39:50,137
buy a copy of Stefan's book,
but that's not really what I'm saying.

767
00:39:50,137 --> 00:39:53,140
I'm like, what did you hear here

768
00:39:53,307 --> 00:39:56,894
that you could go and want to go apply?

769
00:39:56,894 --> 00:39:58,145
I could give you my list.

770
00:39:58,145 --> 00:40:00,898
I, you if you're watching.
You saw me taking notes.

771
00:40:00,898 --> 00:40:02,858
But it's not about my list.

772
00:40:02,858 --> 00:40:04,527
It's about your action.

773
00:40:04,527 --> 00:40:08,197
And so it's my hope
that you will take the time to ask that

774
00:40:08,614 --> 00:40:12,118
super powerful, reflective action
question.

775
00:40:12,118 --> 00:40:12,910
Now what?

776
00:40:12,910 --> 00:40:15,204
Because when you do that
and take that action, you'll get far more

777
00:40:15,204 --> 00:40:19,667
from this time than you would
if you don't ask that question. So,

778
00:40:20,876 --> 00:40:22,336
Stefan, thank you so much.

779
00:40:22,336 --> 00:40:26,090
I told you how long we would
go, and I lied because we went longer,

780
00:40:26,090 --> 00:40:29,260
which simply means
that I enjoyed this great deal.

781
00:40:29,260 --> 00:40:29,760
Thanks so much.

782
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,137
Yeah, it was fantastic.

783
00:40:31,137 --> 00:40:33,013
Thank you so much, Kevin, for having me.

784
00:40:33,013 --> 00:40:33,764
It was my pleasure.

785
00:40:33,764 --> 00:40:35,891
So, everybody,
if you like this, make sure you come back.

786
00:40:35,891 --> 00:40:38,185
I mean, if you like this,
make sure you invite someone else

787
00:40:38,185 --> 00:40:40,396
to come join to watch, watch
or listen to this.

788
00:40:40,396 --> 00:40:41,230
But also the next one.

789
00:40:41,230 --> 00:40:44,483
So and if you just happen
to randomly find this,

790
00:40:45,192 --> 00:40:47,736
make sure you're subscribed
to the Remarkable Leadership Podcast

791
00:40:47,736 --> 00:40:49,947
wherever it is
that you listen to your podcast.

792
00:40:49,947 --> 00:40:53,200
So if you'll do that, I'll be back
next week because we'll be back next week

793
00:40:53,534 --> 00:40:56,036
with another episode
of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.