WEBVTT
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It's a fundamental of holistic management, too, is that you're constantly observing, you're constantly monitoring and making sure you're understanding the whole.
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And the same is for painting, is that you're you're looking and you're interpreting, and you like it's this kind of two-way, this little dance.
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You're with the regeneration.
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Exploring how people are enabling the regeneration of life on this planet by changing the system we're storage in the advice.
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I guess if we're looking at the mill as a lever with regenerating land or rewarding proper regeneration of land, then we're extending that further than the 2,000 acres of ferrigan.
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And then there's this little patch of rather blood.
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And then there might be either through our mill expanding more or others doing the same thing, or but pushing that further.
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Welcome to part two of a resurgence of native grains and native mills featuring these young farmers changing the face of farming in Australia.
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Ian, Courtney and family are farmers, millmakers, artists and business people, and they're exploring how all this connects with culture, creativity, and the regeneration of country and community.
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If you haven't yet listened to last week's episode with Gala Watson and Rob Pekin from Food Connect, that's the trailblazing social enterprise and legendary community food hub in Brisbane, no fear.
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It can listen in reverse order, as it were.
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So giving you here, stick around for this incredible story.
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A serendipitous chain of events, deep and wide across country, that includes connections with elders, native grains off Bruce Patco's farm, this podcast, and this young farming couple in New South Wales who wondered if they could build the first Australian mill in who knows how long.
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And how that might help leverage the sorts of systemic changes so many of us would like to see.
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Join Courtney, Ian, and I on what happened to be Settlement Day for their own farm.
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And would you believe the day they finished their first mill?
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We've just bought a little farm in Brotherglen.
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Um and today is settlement day, so we're, I don't know, everyone kept telling us, you know, good luck for settlement day, and we're like, we need luck.
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Why do we need luck?
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But it turns out that maybe we do need, yeah.
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It's been a bit of a stressful day for us today.
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So it's still the everything is still on track, but there's been like a few little hiccups um getting everything across the line.
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So if we if we seem a bit distracted, that's why.
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Oh well, I was just about to say how how auspicious that we should chat on your settlement day because I knew it was coming and I didn't know if it had just happened or if it had just you know was to come.
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So it sort of feels wonderful that we're talking on this day.
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It's a special occasion, but yeah, I I feel for the tension.
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So thanks all the more for coming on, for sticking to the commitment and being it's our pleasure.
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Yeah, it's exciting.
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Yeah, yeah, no, it really is because this has been brewing for like I mean, this is why I didn't want to wait till next year when we were going to be on location.
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I mean, on location with you would be terrific, and maybe we'll still do that.
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But I didn't want to wait any longer because it was, I think it was December or November last year when Rob from Food Connect let me know that he'd contacted you for something else, and that you'd given word then that you were producing meals.
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And you know, for people who understand how significant that is, it was super exciting.
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So we pegged straight away, we'd have to do something, and of course, that they ordered one instantly, so we would have to do something on how that was playing out.
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So, yeah, to be connecting with you guys now and knowing how much has happened between then and now for you as well is awesome.
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So, including getting your own farm.
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Yeah, I'd love to talk more about that actually, if we can, but for now, can you just place us where you are right now?
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Are you at Woodstock at the moment?
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Yeah, we're at Woodstock, we're in the old dining room at Woodstock, yeah, and the kids are just outside running around, and I don't have the mill on, so I'm not too distracted.
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Um, which the mill at the moment is located just about yeah, 100 metres from the Woodstock house in a little sort of tiny house thing.
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That's the one you've made.
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No, that's the new American stone mill that we that's our initial one that we and the other one is in the workshop, which is sort of another 50 metres over, and it's just its last remaining piece is um all finished today.
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I got calls, so we just kind of that's the feeding mechanism, and once that that's all together, it's um just needs a coat of paint.
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Magnificent.
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I was just feeling doubly auspicious then.
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Yeah.
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Woodstock is Ian's parents' um farm.
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So Ian grew up here um in Berrigan.
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I don't know if you mentioned that.
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Yeah, just out of just out of Berrigan.
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Um, and yeah, it's about 2,000 acres, and Bob and Jenny, Ian's parents uh converted the farm to certified organic in the early 90s or so.
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Yeah.
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And Ian and I came to the farm after we met at uni, I don't know, four or five years ago.
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Yeah.
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Nearly five years ago.
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And that's when we started Woodstock Flour, um, and we imported this new American stone mill from the States.
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And so many questions in that right there.
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Let's start with a bit of background.
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So, what were you studying?
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Were you guys studying the same thing?
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Yeah, similar.
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Um, we were both studying environments at Melbourne Uni.
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We actually met though at a winemaking subject, um, which is quite interesting that we've we've bought a farm in Rutherglen, um, you know, smack bang between some vineyards.
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So we've always been interested in wine and and winemaking, but we ended up in flour because yeah, we saw an opportunity with Ian's parents to kind of value add the grain growing on the farm.
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Um, but yeah, I guess we were both studying environments.
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Yeah, yeah, I did landscape management stuff, which was a lot of ecology.
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Uh, the course was probably more angled towards ending up working in environmental um sciences or in um, say like parks and recreation, that's sort of like maybe like national parks.
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Like I was always interested in it in ecology in terms of agricultural land, and instead of having that divide, trying to have the two together rather than just sort of that's national park over there, and that's farmland to be raped and villaged or whatever.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, so I think we both saw farming as a I was doing more of a geography uh major.
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Um, but I came to farming interested in its potential for larger scale landscape change and just the lifestyle associated with farming too, I think I was drawn to.
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Yeah, so I think we both kind of at the same time as meeting each other started to see farming as a way to kind of bring our interests together and create actual on-the-ground change, but also build a meaningful life for ourselves as well.
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Yeah, and did you think you would be farming Courtney before meeting Ian?
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Was that sort of your agenda prior to that?
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No, not really, no.
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But my I do like my dad, I grew up in Pambula on the south coast of New South Wales, and my dad was an oyster farmer.
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Um, and they're both my parents are from kind of farming backgrounds, and my extended family are mostly all on farms.
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So it's not a lifestyle that was alien to me.
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Um, and it's kind of familiar to me as well.
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So it does kind of feel a bit full circle in some respects, but definitely not from the same background as Ian was growing up on Woodstock.
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Yeah, it's really interesting how that comes about.
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And it's something that a lot of, and you'd be probably no stranger to this, a lot of younger people are thinking about these days, but how to make it happen can be a bit more foreign.
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So, yeah, let's talk more about that towards the end.
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But for now, in terms of that meaning and um, I don't know if lifestyle is too shallow a word, but you know what I mean, that sense of being on country and having your own place that you're going to be moving into.
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Can you describe that a little?
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And just by virtue of the place that you're going to, the one you've bought and the one that you're settling on today, why that place?
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Um, I don't know.
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There were a few, it ticked to a few boxes, um, practical boxes in terms of access to three-phase power, which is very boring.
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But um, we needed access to three-phase power for the flower mills.
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Yeah, and closer to logistics.
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Yeah, close to the Hume Highway and close to town.
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But the actual farm itself is quite beautiful, like it's on Black Dog Creek, and um, it's a nice size, and it was in our budget.
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And I think the price of farmland around here at the moment is just wild.
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And it's really hard for young people to get in.
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And yeah, we're we're all paying a lot for land at the moment and struggling to produce food to make that work.
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Like there's a lot of land banking happening, and yeah, trying to create a business that's viable on that expensive farmland is is a real challenge.
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Um, but yeah, it's it's 95 acres, and we think we can make it work with the flour mill, and and there's an old um railway line down the middle, and so that's really it makes the shape of the property quite strange, but it means that there's this really nice remnant tree down the middle.
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Um, there's native grasses along there because it's just had obviously much different management over the years.
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So it just sort of adds a bit of interest, I guess.
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Yeah, it totally does.
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And that's even true in cities.
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Railway sightings have remnant native grasses and so on.
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It's they're fascinating wild places, it's quite interesting.
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Yeah, yeah.
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You kind of get that edge effect there.
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Um, and there's plenty of edge effect happening on our on our little farm.
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But it's also kind of interesting, like trying to set up our flower mill in this kind of district that's renowned for yeah, wineries, I guess.
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So hopefully we'll be able to really tap into that um farm to table movement that's already happening there.
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So that would be nice.
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And yeah, I should mention also that it's on bangarang country and Radri people also have a connection to the area, and it's not too dissimilar to where we are in Berrigan at the moment as well.
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But we're looking forward to trying to um yeah, get to know the First Nations community and and see where we where we fit in there.
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Um, because I think our work with with Black Duck Foods has got us thinking a lot about that too.
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So that's going to be a pretty important part of our um bedding down process in Rutherglen.
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Yeah, and that's Bruce Pasco's mob for those listeners who don't know.
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By way of talking more about that, let's peel back a level.
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And have you described for us the vision you've got?
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What are you looking at doing out there?
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So we've been involved in Ian's parents' family farm, and that's been super rewarding and exciting.
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But buying our own place was really going to give us a chance to experiment more with regenerative farming practices and really push push what it means to to grow a cereal crop in Australia.
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And yeah, I guess it's just an opportunity for us to experiment without driving Ian's parents nuts.
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Um but in terms of an overarching vision, I think we're really passionate about building a local grain economy and um creating a a farm that's really embedded in the community and yeah, and also by expanding the mill, so we're like gonna double the mill capacity once we get our second mill fully operational once the power's upgraded.
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And so that will mean that we can start to be like I guess if we're looking at the mill as a lever for regenerating land or awarding proper regeneration of land, then we're extending that further than the 2,000 acres at Berrigan.
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And then there's this little patch at Rathergler, and then there might be either through our mill expanding more or others doing the same thing, or but I guess pushing that further, I guess, um and creating a further change.
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Because I mean, we've sort of um us milling the grain from Woodstock hasn't actually changed the way it's been produced.
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Like we've already it's already been organic for 25 years, and yes, there's been a few different changes, but not huge.
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So it's kind of um interesting to think further ahead about what sort of change uh small-scale milling or just milling that you uh where people understand where it's being grown.
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So I guess um identity preserved, where that would would go in terms of landscape change.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So you brought in a new American stone mill.
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And of course, the reason I don't know if you know, the reason Rob texted me was because he just listened to the episode with Mark and Rachel at Miller and Baker over in the West in North Perth.
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He just heard that episode last year and said, You're not gonna believe this.
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I've just spoken to Ian and Courtney over here over in the east because they've got one too, but they're making an Australian one, all Australian materials and intelligence and da-da-da, and you know, huge news and incorporating native grains and so forth.
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And that was really interesting.
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Then by reference back to Mark, he was like, Wow, they're doing that.
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This is something I've been wanting to look at.
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And so you ended up being at the heart of something that was interesting a lot of people.
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Let's backtrack, though, to what got you the first mill before we talk about why you're doing your own now and why that's so important and exciting.
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Well, I think it came back to um, I don't know, a fair while ago when Court and I first moved in together, we were living on a little farm in Whittlesea, and we're sort of doing a little bit of work there and a little bit of work other places, but we wanted to sort of start our own project together.
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I think Court had been involved in Australian Food Sovereignty Alliance and was seeing a lot of these producers doing boxed beef or pork or something like that, and we were started thinking about you know, how could we value add the really good meat that's been grown up at Woodstock?
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Um and we sort of looked at that and just thought, oh no, meat's too tricky.
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There's just too many logistics issues and stuff.
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And then we you know, we saw in the paper one day the guys out at Dad's Oats there in Natty Yallik in Central Vic, and they were just processing their oats from the farm and selling them direct to consumers at farmers' markets and stuff like that.
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And we just thought, well, that's a pretty simple model that could add a lot, and also it's a whole, like, there's no one really doing that for organic flowers and grains.
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Then we bought a little tiny mill.
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We bought this, yeah, tiny stone mill because your sister had told us to look into stone ground flour.
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Like we kind of, I think Heidi, your sister, had mentioned like, look into stone ground flour.
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Like, there seems to be a lot going on there.
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And I think we've started trying to work out what it means to stone mill grain as opposed to other ways of processing flour and the the benefits of stone ground flour and the history of it, and um, you know, the nutritional and flavor benefits of of stone ground flour as opposed to rolling milled flour.
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And so we bought that little stone mill as a experiment.
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Um, and then started meeting bakers.
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So I think it would have been John Reed and um Michael James probably that would have pushed us to get the new American.
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Yeah, it was probably a a Friday afternoon in the bakery at Redbeard.
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John was in Trentham.
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So John Reed was I was playing with doe them.
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I didn't really know what I was doing.
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He was perfectly shaping them all, thick them off.
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I'd do about one, we could stick my hands in it.
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And we were talking about yeah, about the farm and the mill, our little mill, and what the next steps for that could be in the business case.
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And yeah, he was saying there's these really beautiful stone mills that are being made in the States that actually are milling a really good product for whole grain baking.
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So with that emphasis on we're trying to use the whole grain, not trying to mill the flour to separate it.
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So that interest us, interested us, and then yeah, we got talking to, I guess, yeah, Michael James at Tivoli and Emily.
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And the more yeah, so Chris and Emily at small uh small world bakery in Langhorn Creek in South Australia, they had imported a new American stone mill and we um got talking to them and yeah, just kept hearing all this these rave reviews about this mill from Vermont um with Andrew uh what's his last name?
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Andrew.
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Um anyway, we really liked his model because he was sourcing local granite to make these these stone mills.
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Um so he was using Vermont natural granite to make these mills and then shipping them across the world.
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And yeah, it was probably a big decider for us, the fact that it was natural granite as opposed to a lot of the other stone mills, had a composite stone um that's sort of yeah glued together with all sorts of different things.
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And while they're I'm sure they're good and stuff, I just liked the idea of the tradition and the craft and the actual physical stone that has a comes from a place and right on, yeah.
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So yeah, that that interested me.
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Yeah.
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So and I think the mill has been like it's been spectacular, and we've created some really beautiful flour.
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And now that we've been at this kind of point where we've got so much demand for our product, we started considering do we do we buy another mill from new American stone mills in the States, or could we try and look at buying one locally, or is there because it's expensive, especially with the Australian dollar at the moment and importing like there's all these expenses associated with bringing a new mill into Australia and it takes forever as well.
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And it's their place, not ours after all.
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So speaking of place, yeah, their place, isn't it, where that comes from.
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So I imagine this was all part of your thinking as well.
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Yeah.
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Definitely.
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And like if and we started thinking like if we're really passionate about building a local grain economy where local grains are celebrated for their regionality and diversity, then we need to start thinking about every aspect of our business, um, down to the equipment and machinery we use.
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And Ian and his brother are pretty hands-on like bush mechanics, if you will.
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Farm mechanics.
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They started as much as I was like not very um, I don't know, just in confident.
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I was not very confident that they could do it.
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They started thinking that they could build their own.
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The story gets better.
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And they started looking um and into where they could find some natural granite or what quarries you could work with.
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It was more about finding someone who will cut it.
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Um I I'd sort of load up the trailer with um flower ahead down to Melbourne and then make EBA calls on the uh on the way.
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And uh oh yeah, I called heaps of um of people doing you know, granite bench tops and all sorts of stuff, but no one it took me a long time to find someone that had the equipment to cut the we could cut a disc of stone that's 150 mil thick.
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And then we found some people in Castle Maine um at Pyrenees Quarries who could do it.
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And he said, Oh, I've just actually, yeah, that's something we can do.
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And they were interested in doing something a little bit different.
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And then we sort of that worked in quite well because we'd heard from John Reed again um and a few others that had looked into the actual granite at Harcourt and said it, you know, it looks like it's gonna be suitable for the job.
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And so like Hamish and I went down there and had a look just at the granite, and it looks almost identical um to the Vermont granite in terms of particle size.
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Yeah.
00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:57.359
Um and yeah, so then we just said, yeah, right, I will get you to cut us a stone or two.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.000
And then you started to build it after that.
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:14.880
Yeah, then we yeah, just sort of made up a frame and it was but it's it was an interesting process because like uh being in Berrigan, there is like we what we wanted to do was make sure that everything we make it out of is something that could be easily fixed.
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:16.160
Easily sourced.
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:17.519
Easily sourced and stuff.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:25.200
So we've only bought stuff, you know, we've made all the sizes to be simple bearings that most places should carry and stuff.
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:33.440
But the good thing about being here in Berrigan and making it, I'm probably it's probably the same in lots of different farming communities.
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:44.559
It was so like it only took one phone call to ring a guy who's got the machine who has the, you know, he does pump, make, fixes pumps for a living.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:46.799
Um, and he was able to make it.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:52.799
And then we had there's a bloke in town who used to do that um machining sort of stuff.
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:56.720
Um, he used to make like gearboxes for mining equipment or something.
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.440
He came out and had a look, and we just had a chat with him about.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.799
um you know what bearings we should use and where and all sorts.
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:17.359
Um there was a like I think there was a bit of skepticism when we first started doing this, probably also in my part that we wouldn't have the that we wouldn't have the expertise and skills locally to do this.
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:28.240
But it turns out we definitely have and it's just through connections and knowing people and just like that kind of can do attitude that you just have to give it a give it a crack and you work it out as you go.
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:53.759
So like I think the final product like the new American stone mill is a beautiful machine and I don't think you know um Andrew's been working on it for a long time and I think it'll be really hard to top what he's done and we're forever grateful for his hard work in building this this beautiful machine but we're also very proud that we could do it locally and yeah work with the community and and take advantage of what we have here.
00:22:54.400 --> 00:23:53.599
And then like to be using local stone as well is so yeah so beautiful I think like I don't know I remember Anthony your chat with uh Tyson Yunkerporter I forgot when that was but you I think Tyson was talking about stone and the cultural importance of stone among certain Aboriginal communities and last year we had a um uh I work for Lancare sometimes the local Coral Lancare and we had a workshop with an archaeologist Colin Pardo and he was talking to us about uh what the local Aboriginal people what their kind of work with stone was all about and the different stone stories and it all just kind of like fitted in really nicely with our new interest in in stones and and it just like yeah I guess reinstated that importance of trying to look locally using what you have locally and how we can it's like the it's all at our fingertips really it has been anyway.
00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:55.839
It's been really nice experience.
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:00.319
Well yes and this brings it to the surface doesn't it so now a whole bunch more people know it.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:18.400
What you've just described then is so huge I think that that the skill base was there but of course if you don't tap it it either stays unrecognized and unvalued including in the economic system in an explicit sense or is lost eventually from an age gone by sort of thing.
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:46.640
But to be reinvigorating that local skill base in all those little ways with the people who play a part in this let alone the consumer end of course which is what Mark talked about so beautifully about his experience that mills and bakeries used to be the heart of communities and indeed that's sort of what happened over there demand's gone crazy for the high end stuff most particularly like the stuff that he really values as an artisan is the stuff that people are really valuing and buying.
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:48.640
And so he's looking at okay what do I do?
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:49.680
Do I get a second mill?
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:51.440
And that's my next question for you guys.
00:24:51.519 --> 00:25:00.960
Like you obviously had Rob say instantly you're making one for yourself make one for me has that continued has anyone else knocked on your door already and is that how big is the vision for that?
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:25.279
Well we we're in WA uh about a month ago we went and saw yeah Mark at Miller and Baker and how to play with his mill and um he's a bit keen but I thought so I've been putting my foot down because limits to groups yes very much so but we're very keen to make to you know actually test ours for a year.
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:32.960
Yeah you know Robert was calling and putting down money for a mill before we'd even made our first mill.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:41.200
So we just need to like take it step by step and um just see how this goes before we commit.
00:25:41.279 --> 00:26:06.160
And like we just need to I don't know it's really it's been interesting this whole journey with our business because it you really do have to keep putting in like um I don't know what you call them but like you need to keep checking yourself before you just keep growing yeah exponentially because there is so much interest in in what we're doing and and we do need to just like put the brakes on and make sure we are doing what we want to do.
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:19.599
And yeah I guess it's an interesting thing to think about though because like we could we could make mills on a commercial scale and and then we'd be supporting other communities to kind of do what we're doing.
00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:53.920
Or we could focus on on growing grain and really challenging the way that we're that we grow grain in an agroecological or regenerative way or we could just try and really focus on getting you know local grain in our community and and whether that's actually baking food ourselves or like I feel like there's we're at a bit of a crossroads at the moment like which way we go to best serve our family and our landscape and our community it's a bit of a it's a tricky one.
00:26:54.079 --> 00:27:08.240
But there's definitely a temptation I think for Ian and Hamish his brother to yeah with Mark keen for us to build him a mill and then there's been a bit of interest in Melbourne as well we'll we'll see no doubt see what happens.
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:28.799
No doubt no but it's well articulated Courtney that is the sort of thought pattern isn't it but it makes me recall Walter Jenner's talking about an export market to the world that we could export knowledge of regenerative agriculture and so forth to the world rather than mass quantities of you know monoculture derived crops.
00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:43.519
And it makes me even think about the mill or for that matter anything that you're doing that what you make commercial to an extent could actually be the know-how that helps other people do it in their region without you needing to mass produce so to speak.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:28:09.759
There's all those sorts options too hey yeah definitely and I think we have been doing that to an extent like we've had several I don't know how many we've had lots of farmers call us up and talk about our model and um we've tried to be as transparent as we can be um and it's kind of got to the point where we we start to worry if we're actually going to have a market for our flour because there's been so many farmers interested in doing a similar thing to us.
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:26.880
But it's it is that kind of like sharing of knowledge and you know it's sometimes it doesn't come so easily or naturally but trying not to think of other farmers in this space as competitors but as collaborators and yeah it's it's been an interesting journey.
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:37.839
Oh no doubt but yeah definitely at this stage thinking of trying to be just knowledge sharers rather than yeah exporters of commodity grains.
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:51.119
Yeah so there's a very real question in that that so many of us grapple with in in different fields as well in this regenerative space so to speak and that is the extent to which you do derive a livelihood.
00:28:51.200 --> 00:29:00.960
And I say livelihood in a broad sense it doesn't have to be money or majority money even but nonetheless that the monetization would be part of it.
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:03.200
How are you guys approaching that?
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:37.279
And I asked that even with reference to for example certification of grains you know you talked about your folks being organic since the 90s so that mattered and now folks are taught oh now we need regenerative certification or Patagonia of course has been part of organic regenerative certification and they believe strongly in that others say it's not about certification it's just I mean the Haggertys for example still use touches of glyphosate to recover as a recovery tool from below threshold ecological function and then drop it and find that their practices from there actually purify it.
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.279
They're not there are no traces when they test their crops after that.
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:47.599
But they'd be cancelled out if there was a certification process that was you know buy the book sort of thing.
00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:49.599
So it makes an interesting dialogue.
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:58.640
I wonder where you guys sit on that including sort of market differentiation and how you get your premium for your higher you know labour type of craft.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:31.759
Yeah um it's something that we're yeah with this new farm we're thinking about quite a lot too like whether we go down that organic certification or biodynamic certification or at the moment the way the business is structured we buy grain off my parents and that's certified organic grain but we have not certified the mill um the flour mill as certified organic so we don't put any certified organic logos on our packaging or anything at this stage but we do write organ certified organic grain.
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:45.680
And I guess that's because we've felt that our storytelling and our transparency is um able to do the the yeah the communicating rather than having to have that certification.
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:52.000
But there there's probably a few markets that have been like oh you know we won't take it unless it's certified organic.
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:58.400
But a lot of those are ones where we haven't developed a relationship with them in the first place.
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:18.160
Yeah that's it isn't it so yeah and I think this is where scale comes into it like at the moment we're quite um small and we do have a relationship with all of our bakers and retailers and so it's not an issue but if we were to continue growing I think yeah it's something that we have to think about a lot more.
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:23.519
But it's such a tricky yeah I I don't think we have a particular stance on it at all.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:29.279
We're just exploring all the avenues but we definitely don't think certified organic is the answer.
00:31:29.359 --> 00:32:01.039
Like it's it's super limited and I don't know through your parents' experience like it's definitely got them a premium but there's no no support from the certifiers to build on what they're doing and there's no outcome verification like we're kind of more interested in in what gets the results like what actually gets carbon in the soil or like how do we know that these processes or these practices are actually increasing biodiversity and and and soil carbon.
00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:05.759
Whereas a lot of these certifiers aren't concerned with that.
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:07.039
It's just very practice based.
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:07.359
Yeah.
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:38.799
And yeah but then we also are very aware that the consumer doesn't want to have to you know interpret really complex messaging on packaging and they just want to see a label and and buy it because and then also that that that certification organic certification does mean a lot to people who are very keen to get any chemicals out of their food as a like which is probably a slightly different conversation to people who are looking to regenerate a landscape.
00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:39.359
Yeah.
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:44.720
Not that they can't be together but yeah I think it's an extra thing.
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:48.559
Yeah that's well articulated I think yeah we're still figuring it out.
00:32:48.799 --> 00:33:12.079
Yeah and that I think you touched on the holistic nature of what you're trying to figure out too isn't it how you do bring even those wants together you know free of the toxic compounds we've just lathered on everything for decades now but in a way that actually does restore the whole like not just your your idea of health in this bundle of flesh and bone but health across the board.
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:21.440
And it also strikes me how it weaves back into the native grains thing that uh is there a native grain certification to have too then you know it's like how far do you go?
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:29.759
And I've been a critic for a while of that labeling sort of ethos you know the sort of uh green light systems or or tick systems or whatever.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:44.400
It's not to say don't do them again, but it's sort of it's at least to say don't find yourself dumbing down for people like empower people and increase capacity across people's ability to interpret and understand.
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:49.759
Yeah dumbing down and sort of shutting out in that way say we'll take care of things and trust us.
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:53.119
Yeah that's got us to where we are that's what we're trying to change.
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:55.920
So definitely yeah that's a really interesting point.
00:33:56.079 --> 00:34:20.719
Yeah we've found um I mean workshops aren't the answer and there's a lot of producers that just do workshops and that's how they engage with community but we have found that through workshops we've been able to um communicate that nuance and and explain what we're doing or trying to do and and just like break down some of those barriers with people and even just with flour like a lot of people just don't know how to use our flour.
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:32.159
Yeah and Ian's mum Jenny has just released a a kind of memoir slash cookbook about the farm and the family and what's it called it's called Woodstock farm food and family.
00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:45.519
And even just having that in the local community has been really awesome to kind of get people to think a bit more about what they're baking with and and what what's behind it.
00:34:45.599 --> 00:35:06.559
Like it's not just as clear cut as a certified organic bud logo it's it's a lot there's a lot more going on and and it's not all good and it's certainly not all bad but it's it's complex and there's it was a journey and and it's I think it's the book and just like our communications on Instagram even like it's trying to get people to join us on that journey maybe.
00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:14.880
I was going to ask what the basis of your storytelling sort of front is is that it at the moment or is it sort of more extensive than that?
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:22.480
We've just got all our bags and branding redone to try and tell more of our story when we're not there to do it.
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:22.800
Yeah.
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:44.400
So that's been an interesting process and trying to work out yeah there's been a lot of um yeah thought no doubt that has to go into like where you what you want to be um telling yeah so that's been interesting but I'm really hoping that that will actually allow the the bag of flour to tell a bit more of a story and get people interested to then follow up on it.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:51.199
But yeah I think we have been using Instagram a lot but it's there's limitations there too.
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:59.920
Like it's only yeah I think through Instagram is how we've met all of our customers almost really basically but yeah bakers love Instagram.
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:00.960
Is that right?
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:18.480
Um but it's through relationships and conversations that we yeah that's what I think we are better at maybe there's something in that isn't it's why I love this even yeah to be able to just well what Tyson called the campfire hey the modern day campfire.
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:22.800
Yeah long form podcast where you can actually get to know people a little bit.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:56.000
Yeah exactly it's been awesome talking with um uh Chris Andrew at Black Duck Foods because he always he's the general manager of Black Duck Foods and he always talks about having a yarn as the kind of the foundation of any business negotiation any right on yeah it's just the the core of their of their model really is having a yarn and I think that's quite quite lovely and I something that we probably we should think about more maybe.
00:36:56.320 --> 00:37:58.159
Yeah yeah I agree I do yeah there's another angle to it to your work too and I I I have to weave in your art too Courtney but let's hold that to the end i let's come back to the question about acquiring land for all those people out there who are inspired by your story and others like yours and just thinking how do I surpass the sort of barriers you talked about at the very beginning in terms of getting a place is there something you can share on that front about your personal experience yeah well we've just been through the Cultivator program with Cultivate Farms and it's been a roller coaster and I think my like Ian might say something different but my main learning through that process is that it's important to start small and I think what we've done with having a small value adding business and finding a market and finding a community that will support us that's been integral.
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:18.800
So even if you don't have a family farm like we've been really lucky to have just finding farmers that you can buy their produce and then value add that and market it to a community and get to know a farm or a farming community that way and and get some farming experience in that way has been really important for us.
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:34.400
But then through this cultivator program we've um we've learned that there are there's lots of money out there and there are lots of investors that are interested in investing in regenerative farms and in farmland.
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:51.599
And while we haven't gone down that path as such we've kind of worked more with our own families to acquire this farm I think there's heaps of opportunities for young farmers to get some keen trusting investors to back you.
00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:55.519
And yeah there's just there's so many people out there that are keen to do it.
00:38:55.599 --> 00:39:06.880
It's just about building a relationship with those investors and finding a pathway through through that kind of yeah impact investment I guess would you say anything different?
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:36.480
Yeah it's a it was an interesting world that we um had a window into so this the program was sort of based around you'd uh create there was sort of 10 farmers or something who were fostered to help create a farm pitch and then at the end of it there was sort of a bank of investors that you would pitch your idea to and they would sort of choose someone to go with and it all didn't end up quite as simple as that and it was quite a few different things along the way.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:52.079
But what it meant was we did create a very strong business plan and had all the numbers and stuff for a whole myriad of uh scenarios from sort of yeah bigger farms to smaller farms to um different things.
00:39:52.239 --> 00:40:21.039
And in the end we uh did sort of start having a few conversations with people who are really interested in buying land and leasing it back or there was other people who were interested in even just helping with infrastructure and solar power and um but there's just it sort of opened up a whole world of possibility which yeah is really interesting and um sort of made us rethink the way that you could go about it.
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:22.480
It sounds really interesting.
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:32.800
I'm get getting a sort of a key theme that even going back to the way the new American stone mill came to hand through the slow it was the slow money pitch wasn't it with Rob and Emma Kate.
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:45.360
Yeah yeah yeah um that it's not to do it alone it's to connect with these opportunities and to connect with these other people to explore together.
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:48.800
Definitely and out of that comes what you do.
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:52.559
I think that's a really interesting not insignificant take home.
00:40:52.880 --> 00:41:07.519
Yeah and through Robert too like I've known Robert for years but it's just in the last year that you know we've picked up on different threads in our different paths and they've kind of come together and I think that's really nice.
00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:22.320
Like I was involved in the Australian Food Sovereignty alliance yeah four years ago maybe and connections from that and different events that I went to from that are still kind of playing a part in what we're doing today which has been really nice.
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:52.639
And yeah I I love the way that Robert the way he goes about his work with Food Connect he just decides he's gonna do something and he finds the money and he just has so many connections and he just um he's so genuine too like he just lives his values and I think that's a real inspiration for Ian and I and his social enterprise that he's doing and that we're hopefully going to be contributing a flour mill to um well not contributing he's paying us for it.
00:41:53.360 --> 00:42:09.199
But like I think that's super inspiring that he like it's it's really um unknown territory for him but he's just doing it and finding the money and finding the people and the the minds that he needs to make it work and I think that's really admirable.
00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:18.800
Indeed yeah no I've I'll be um speaking with Gala and Rob lovely to tack them on to this episode this little story yeah in some fashion.
00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:33.920
Lovely yeah so to your art Courtney because this isn't insignificant either I've been so moved by how you've articulated this and you know I'm so not fond of Facebook that I don't tend to use any of their stable either.
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:39.840
So but I I have a look yeah at people that I'm caring about and engaging with to see what they do.
00:42:40.000 --> 00:43:03.519
Yeah and you know I note the positives that you've said have come of it too for it for that matter but to think of Insta used in the way that you've used it is really quite inspirational because some of your articulation around painting landscape and its connection to regenerative farming at their heart they share a sort of an ethos or a parallel process and I'd love you to speak to that here if you would.
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:09.440
Well I guess I started thinking about that um when I did a few workshops with Earth Canvas.
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:35.760
So it's a local kind of not-for-profit organization around Aubrey mostly and Jill Sandbrook is the kind of the matriarch of Earth Canvas it's her baby anyway and she pairs artists with regenerative farmers and you do workshops where you're learning about the artist's practice and then also the the regenerative farm that you're based on and where you most likely in most instances you're painting on plain air.
00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:56.079
And I yeah I think that got me thinking because they're both kind of two loves of mine is is art and and farming and since having our daughter Mabel three years, three and a half years ago whatever um I've kind of got back into painting and I I wasn't doing it for a while before having Mabel.
00:43:56.400 --> 00:44:04.960
Yeah I don't know it's like I think it's just um When you're painting, you're like you're you're observing and you're interpreting what you see.
00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:06.559
And the same is for farming.
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:10.559
You're farming is or running a farm based business.
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:11.760
It's really important.
00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:14.480
Like I guess it's a holistic management.
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:23.599
It's a fundamental of holistic management too, is that you're constantly observing, you're constantly monitoring, monitoring and monitoring and and making sure you're understanding the whole.
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:32.880
And the same is for for painting, is that you're you're looking and you're interpreting and you're like it's this kind of two-way, this little dance.
00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:34.480
Yeah, it's a lovely metaphor for it.
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:41.360
Yeah, I think thinking of farming as as a creative pursuit as well is interesting.
00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:46.320
That you're you're literally creating and working with creativity, with life.
00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:57.119
And I think that's uh something that some farmers forget that it's just it's all mechanics, um, and you're enforcing and money and pressure.
00:44:57.679 --> 00:44:58.800
Yeah, but it's not.
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:02.000
It's it's a lot more uh complex than that.
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:06.800
And it can be, it can be beautiful and it can be heartbreaking too, obviously.
00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:18.719
Yeah, so it's been interesting um to kind of pursue this sort of art career on the side, as also pursuing farming and and seeing where they kind of meet and diverge.
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:27.199
And yeah, no, I love how you said working with complexity in both cases, to distill the complexity, not simplify it.
00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:36.320
Yeah, in order to create something, whether that's food, fiber, soil, or just or just a painting, while not erasing or denying anything in the process.
00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:37.119
Yeah.
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:38.000
That's beautifully.
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:44.639
That's almost that's one of the best encapsulations of systems thinking or regenerative farming or holistic thinking that I've ever heard.
00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:45.519
So hats off to me.
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:46.800
Oh, thank you.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:51.599
I'm not as well articulated in an interview, sorry.
00:45:53.519 --> 00:45:54.639
To go out, guys.
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:55.840
It's music, of course.
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:56.800
You know this.
00:45:57.199 --> 00:45:58.159
So yeah.
00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:00.880
Who gets to choose or you choose together?
00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:04.719
What piece of music connects you guys, even if you want to go there?
00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:07.440
Oh, that's a really good question.
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:09.599
I don't know.
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:11.360
We might need a lot of things talk about.
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:16.559
Yeah, I know that you asked this question, and I still didn't even think to think about it.
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:29.760
Um, but we like recently, I don't know how this would really tie into what we're thinking about, what we've been discussing, but recently we went to um uh to Barum, um, which is a little town.
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:31.519
Along the river, yeah.
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:32.159
Yeah.
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:40.159
Um, and there was a a kind of a charity gig, and it was, you know, the first gig that a lot of people have been to with COVID and everything.
00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:41.599
So it was really special.
00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:47.360
Um, it's set up by a biodynamic farmer, which I thought was pretty cool, and he's a keen museo.
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:55.519
And um the charity they send instruments to to communities where they might not have access to instruments around the world.
00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:58.000
And so it's a pretty cute charity idea.
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:05.599
And anyway, I had the gig Angie McMahon was playing, and I'd not seen her life, but I've been a fan of her music for a really long time.
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:11.599
And I think I don't know, probably because we haven't been out much because we've got two young children.
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:24.320
We both were just so captivated by her and how she is so honest in her songwriting, and she's just a little yeah, she's a powerhouse.
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:45.840
Powerfully delivered, and it was also the atmosphere being like it was a cold night in a little country town that just felt like at Little Pock Delhi, which is a little community had come out to support it, and we ran into one of our bakers at Shepherd, like who bakes at Shepherd, and we like it was just such a lovely uh community uh night.
00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:50.239
Yeah, mate, you're very it was really special, very warming for the yeah the soul.
00:47:50.559 --> 00:48:02.000
Anyway, her song Slow Mover, I think Ian and I both love, and it was a really lovely um atmosphere, and I loved the way she delivered all of her songs, but that slow mover song is really beautiful.
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:03.199
That's a beautiful story.
00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:03.760
Thanks, guys.
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:07.039
And it occurs to me that epitomizes so much of what you're about.
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:09.519
So again, I'm so glad I asked.
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:19.119
And you know, the the charity, if only because 20 years ago when I was living in Guatemala, part of what I was doing was helping set up a music school in a broader cultural center.
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:30.159
And I I literally just cold canvas music stores in North America to send us instruments, and blissfully they did, but wow to have an effort coordinated it for you, yeah.
00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:33.760
Yeah, and it made a massive difference, and it was a beautiful thing on the ground.
00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:34.639
So that's lovely.
00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:35.760
Cool, that's awesome.
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:41.280
Yeah, no, I think it's a it's underestimated the power of music and oh, exactly.
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:43.119
And creating music, I'm sure.
00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:43.599
Yeah.
00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:44.480
Exactly.
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:46.639
Guys, it's been terrific chatting.
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:49.360
Perhaps we'll drop in next year if it all works out, hey.
00:48:49.599 --> 00:48:50.480
Yeah, please do.
00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:51.119
Please do.
00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:52.000
Thank you.
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:55.840
Anytime it's been great to chat today, and all power to you.
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:58.559
Thank you for hosting such a lovely podcast.
00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:04.320
We've really enjoyed a lot of the stories you've been able to share through your podcast.
00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:05.119
It's a great show.
00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:06.480
Thanks a lot, guys.
00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:07.360
Have a good day.
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:10.639
I hope that settlement comes through well for you without too much more stress.
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:11.199
Thank you.
00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:12.880
And awesome celebrate.
00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:13.920
Thank you, we will.
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:15.199
Thank you very much.
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:18.719
That was Ian Cognden and Courtney Young.
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:25.679
For more on Ian and Courtney, Woodstock Flower, and Courtney's beautiful artwork, see the links in our programme details.
00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:34.880
And if you haven't heard part one of this series yet, tune into episode 88 for my conversation with Gala Watson and Rob Pekin at Food Connect.
00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:41.760
And look out for the launch event in Brisbane soon, with the arrival of the Mill at Food Connect, due in August.
00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:50.880
The Regeneration is an independent podcast free of ads, admission fees, and detached monocultural output, thanks to the generous support of listeners.
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:59.519
If you too value what you hear, please consider joining these kind folks by visiting the website via the show notes, regeneration.com.
00:49:59.920 --> 00:50:05.920
Thanks for your support, and as usual, thanks for rating, sharing, and commenting on the podcast.
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:10.800
The music you're hearing is Faraway Castle by Ray Howe and Sunray.
00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:15.199
And at the top, the system by the Public Opinion Afro Orchestra.
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:17.039
My name's Anthony James.
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:18.719
Thanks for listening.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:07.360
It's a fundamental of holistic management, too, is that you're constantly observing, you're constantly monitoring and making sure you're understanding the whole.
00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:16.239
And the same is for painting, is that you're you're looking and you're interpreting, and you like it's this kind of two-way, this little dance.
00:00:19.039 --> 00:00:20.960
You're with the regeneration.
00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:28.719
Exploring how people are enabling the regeneration of life on this planet by changing the system we're storage in the advice.
00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:43.119
I guess if we're looking at the mill as a lever with regenerating land or rewarding proper regeneration of land, then we're extending that further than the 2,000 acres of ferrigan.
00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:45.679
And then there's this little patch of rather blood.
00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:53.920
And then there might be either through our mill expanding more or others doing the same thing, or but pushing that further.
00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:17.120
Welcome to part two of a resurgence of native grains and native mills featuring these young farmers changing the face of farming in Australia.
00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:32.480
Ian, Courtney and family are farmers, millmakers, artists and business people, and they're exploring how all this connects with culture, creativity, and the regeneration of country and community.
00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:44.640
If you haven't yet listened to last week's episode with Gala Watson and Rob Pekin from Food Connect, that's the trailblazing social enterprise and legendary community food hub in Brisbane, no fear.
00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:47.519
It can listen in reverse order, as it were.
00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:51.519
So giving you here, stick around for this incredible story.
00:01:51.840 --> 00:02:09.360
A serendipitous chain of events, deep and wide across country, that includes connections with elders, native grains off Bruce Patco's farm, this podcast, and this young farming couple in New South Wales who wondered if they could build the first Australian mill in who knows how long.
00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:16.560
And how that might help leverage the sorts of systemic changes so many of us would like to see.
00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:22.080
Join Courtney, Ian, and I on what happened to be Settlement Day for their own farm.
00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:25.520
And would you believe the day they finished their first mill?
00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:29.039
We've just bought a little farm in Brotherglen.
00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:37.680
Um and today is settlement day, so we're, I don't know, everyone kept telling us, you know, good luck for settlement day, and we're like, we need luck.
00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:39.439
Why do we need luck?
00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:42.319
But it turns out that maybe we do need, yeah.
00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:45.039
It's been a bit of a stressful day for us today.
00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:53.199
So it's still the everything is still on track, but there's been like a few little hiccups um getting everything across the line.
00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:56.080
So if we if we seem a bit distracted, that's why.
00:02:56.719 --> 00:03:08.080
Oh well, I was just about to say how how auspicious that we should chat on your settlement day because I knew it was coming and I didn't know if it had just happened or if it had just you know was to come.
00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:11.199
So it sort of feels wonderful that we're talking on this day.
00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:15.520
It's a special occasion, but yeah, I I feel for the tension.
00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:21.680
So thanks all the more for coming on, for sticking to the commitment and being it's our pleasure.
00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:22.879
Yeah, it's exciting.
00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:30.560
Yeah, yeah, no, it really is because this has been brewing for like I mean, this is why I didn't want to wait till next year when we were going to be on location.
00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:33.759
I mean, on location with you would be terrific, and maybe we'll still do that.
00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:47.680
But I didn't want to wait any longer because it was, I think it was December or November last year when Rob from Food Connect let me know that he'd contacted you for something else, and that you'd given word then that you were producing meals.
00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:52.479
And you know, for people who understand how significant that is, it was super exciting.
00:03:52.639 --> 00:04:00.560
So we pegged straight away, we'd have to do something, and of course, that they ordered one instantly, so we would have to do something on how that was playing out.
00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:07.439
So, yeah, to be connecting with you guys now and knowing how much has happened between then and now for you as well is awesome.
00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.159
So, including getting your own farm.
00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:16.480
Yeah, I'd love to talk more about that actually, if we can, but for now, can you just place us where you are right now?
00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:17.759
Are you at Woodstock at the moment?
00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:26.720
Yeah, we're at Woodstock, we're in the old dining room at Woodstock, yeah, and the kids are just outside running around, and I don't have the mill on, so I'm not too distracted.
00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:35.439
Um, which the mill at the moment is located just about yeah, 100 metres from the Woodstock house in a little sort of tiny house thing.
00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:36.560
That's the one you've made.
00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:50.399
No, that's the new American stone mill that we that's our initial one that we and the other one is in the workshop, which is sort of another 50 metres over, and it's just its last remaining piece is um all finished today.
00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:59.279
I got calls, so we just kind of that's the feeding mechanism, and once that that's all together, it's um just needs a coat of paint.
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Magnificent.
00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:02.160
I was just feeling doubly auspicious then.
00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:02.639
Yeah.
00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:06.399
Woodstock is Ian's parents' um farm.
00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:09.360
So Ian grew up here um in Berrigan.
00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:10.480
I don't know if you mentioned that.
00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:12.800
Yeah, just out of just out of Berrigan.
00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:23.120
Um, and yeah, it's about 2,000 acres, and Bob and Jenny, Ian's parents uh converted the farm to certified organic in the early 90s or so.
00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:23.600
Yeah.
00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:29.759
And Ian and I came to the farm after we met at uni, I don't know, four or five years ago.
00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:30.000
Yeah.
00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:31.439
Nearly five years ago.
00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:38.879
And that's when we started Woodstock Flour, um, and we imported this new American stone mill from the States.
00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:42.000
And so many questions in that right there.
00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:44.079
Let's start with a bit of background.
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So, what were you studying?
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Were you guys studying the same thing?
00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:47.680
Yeah, similar.
00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:50.800
Um, we were both studying environments at Melbourne Uni.
00:05:51.360 --> 00:06:02.720
We actually met though at a winemaking subject, um, which is quite interesting that we've we've bought a farm in Rutherglen, um, you know, smack bang between some vineyards.
00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:15.040
So we've always been interested in wine and and winemaking, but we ended up in flour because yeah, we saw an opportunity with Ian's parents to kind of value add the grain growing on the farm.
00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:18.240
Um, but yeah, I guess we were both studying environments.
00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:23.040
Yeah, yeah, I did landscape management stuff, which was a lot of ecology.
00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:35.439
Uh, the course was probably more angled towards ending up working in environmental um sciences or in um, say like parks and recreation, that's sort of like maybe like national parks.
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Like I was always interested in it in ecology in terms of agricultural land, and instead of having that divide, trying to have the two together rather than just sort of that's national park over there, and that's farmland to be raped and villaged or whatever.
00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:52.319
Yeah, yeah.
00:06:52.800 --> 00:07:00.000
Yeah, so I think we both saw farming as a I was doing more of a geography uh major.
00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:11.040
Um, but I came to farming interested in its potential for larger scale landscape change and just the lifestyle associated with farming too, I think I was drawn to.
00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:26.720
Yeah, so I think we both kind of at the same time as meeting each other started to see farming as a way to kind of bring our interests together and create actual on-the-ground change, but also build a meaningful life for ourselves as well.
00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:32.000
Yeah, and did you think you would be farming Courtney before meeting Ian?
00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:34.480
Was that sort of your agenda prior to that?
00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:36.720
No, not really, no.
00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:44.000
But my I do like my dad, I grew up in Pambula on the south coast of New South Wales, and my dad was an oyster farmer.
00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:51.439
Um, and they're both my parents are from kind of farming backgrounds, and my extended family are mostly all on farms.
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So it's not a lifestyle that was alien to me.
00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:58.079
Um, and it's kind of familiar to me as well.
00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:07.040
So it does kind of feel a bit full circle in some respects, but definitely not from the same background as Ian was growing up on Woodstock.
00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:09.600
Yeah, it's really interesting how that comes about.
00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:19.839
And it's something that a lot of, and you'd be probably no stranger to this, a lot of younger people are thinking about these days, but how to make it happen can be a bit more foreign.
00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:23.120
So, yeah, let's talk more about that towards the end.
00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:35.039
But for now, in terms of that meaning and um, I don't know if lifestyle is too shallow a word, but you know what I mean, that sense of being on country and having your own place that you're going to be moving into.
00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:37.120
Can you describe that a little?
00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:44.960
And just by virtue of the place that you're going to, the one you've bought and the one that you're settling on today, why that place?
00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:46.639
Um, I don't know.
00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:54.960
There were a few, it ticked to a few boxes, um, practical boxes in terms of access to three-phase power, which is very boring.
00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:58.639
But um, we needed access to three-phase power for the flower mills.
00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:01.039
Yeah, and closer to logistics.
00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:04.799
Yeah, close to the Hume Highway and close to town.
00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:14.000
But the actual farm itself is quite beautiful, like it's on Black Dog Creek, and um, it's a nice size, and it was in our budget.
00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:20.159
And I think the price of farmland around here at the moment is just wild.
00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:22.799
And it's really hard for young people to get in.
00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:32.639
And yeah, we're we're all paying a lot for land at the moment and struggling to produce food to make that work.
00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:42.960
Like there's a lot of land banking happening, and yeah, trying to create a business that's viable on that expensive farmland is is a real challenge.
00:09:43.120 --> 00:10:01.679
Um, but yeah, it's it's 95 acres, and we think we can make it work with the flour mill, and and there's an old um railway line down the middle, and so that's really it makes the shape of the property quite strange, but it means that there's this really nice remnant tree down the middle.
00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:07.840
Um, there's native grasses along there because it's just had obviously much different management over the years.
00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:10.320
So it just sort of adds a bit of interest, I guess.
00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:11.759
Yeah, it totally does.
00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:13.120
And that's even true in cities.
00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:15.519
Railway sightings have remnant native grasses and so on.
00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:18.720
It's they're fascinating wild places, it's quite interesting.
00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:19.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:22.159
You kind of get that edge effect there.
00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:27.200
Um, and there's plenty of edge effect happening on our on our little farm.
00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:35.519
But it's also kind of interesting, like trying to set up our flower mill in this kind of district that's renowned for yeah, wineries, I guess.
00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:42.960
So hopefully we'll be able to really tap into that um farm to table movement that's already happening there.
00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:44.240
So that would be nice.
00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:56.960
And yeah, I should mention also that it's on bangarang country and Radri people also have a connection to the area, and it's not too dissimilar to where we are in Berrigan at the moment as well.
00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:07.279
But we're looking forward to trying to um yeah, get to know the First Nations community and and see where we where we fit in there.
00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:13.679
Um, because I think our work with with Black Duck Foods has got us thinking a lot about that too.
00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:20.639
So that's going to be a pretty important part of our um bedding down process in Rutherglen.
00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.399
Yeah, and that's Bruce Pasco's mob for those listeners who don't know.
00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:28.159
By way of talking more about that, let's peel back a level.
00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.039
And have you described for us the vision you've got?
00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:33.200
What are you looking at doing out there?
00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:41.200
So we've been involved in Ian's parents' family farm, and that's been super rewarding and exciting.
00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:55.360
But buying our own place was really going to give us a chance to experiment more with regenerative farming practices and really push push what it means to to grow a cereal crop in Australia.
00:11:55.519 --> 00:12:01.200
And yeah, I guess it's just an opportunity for us to experiment without driving Ian's parents nuts.
00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:27.679
Um but in terms of an overarching vision, I think we're really passionate about building a local grain economy and um creating a a farm that's really embedded in the community and yeah, and also by expanding the mill, so we're like gonna double the mill capacity once we get our second mill fully operational once the power's upgraded.
00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:41.919
And so that will mean that we can start to be like I guess if we're looking at the mill as a lever for regenerating land or awarding proper regeneration of land, then we're extending that further than the 2,000 acres at Berrigan.
00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:57.039
And then there's this little patch at Rathergler, and then there might be either through our mill expanding more or others doing the same thing, or but I guess pushing that further, I guess, um and creating a further change.
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:03.440
Because I mean, we've sort of um us milling the grain from Woodstock hasn't actually changed the way it's been produced.
00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:10.000
Like we've already it's already been organic for 25 years, and yes, there's been a few different changes, but not huge.
00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:23.679
So it's kind of um interesting to think further ahead about what sort of change uh small-scale milling or just milling that you uh where people understand where it's being grown.
00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:28.879
So I guess um identity preserved, where that would would go in terms of landscape change.
00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:29.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:32.879
So you brought in a new American stone mill.
00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:42.480
And of course, the reason I don't know if you know, the reason Rob texted me was because he just listened to the episode with Mark and Rachel at Miller and Baker over in the West in North Perth.
00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:46.240
He just heard that episode last year and said, You're not gonna believe this.
00:13:46.399 --> 00:14:00.000
I've just spoken to Ian and Courtney over here over in the east because they've got one too, but they're making an Australian one, all Australian materials and intelligence and da-da-da, and you know, huge news and incorporating native grains and so forth.
00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:02.080
And that was really interesting.
00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:04.720
Then by reference back to Mark, he was like, Wow, they're doing that.
00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:06.159
This is something I've been wanting to look at.
00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:11.519
And so you ended up being at the heart of something that was interesting a lot of people.
00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:22.480
Let's backtrack, though, to what got you the first mill before we talk about why you're doing your own now and why that's so important and exciting.
00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:36.960
Well, I think it came back to um, I don't know, a fair while ago when Court and I first moved in together, we were living on a little farm in Whittlesea, and we're sort of doing a little bit of work there and a little bit of work other places, but we wanted to sort of start our own project together.
00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:52.720
I think Court had been involved in Australian Food Sovereignty Alliance and was seeing a lot of these producers doing boxed beef or pork or something like that, and we were started thinking about you know, how could we value add the really good meat that's been grown up at Woodstock?
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.559
Um and we sort of looked at that and just thought, oh no, meat's too tricky.
00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:00.240
There's just too many logistics issues and stuff.
00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:16.960
And then we you know, we saw in the paper one day the guys out at Dad's Oats there in Natty Yallik in Central Vic, and they were just processing their oats from the farm and selling them direct to consumers at farmers' markets and stuff like that.
00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:27.600
And we just thought, well, that's a pretty simple model that could add a lot, and also it's a whole, like, there's no one really doing that for organic flowers and grains.
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:30.000
Then we bought a little tiny mill.
00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:36.480
We bought this, yeah, tiny stone mill because your sister had told us to look into stone ground flour.
00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:42.240
Like we kind of, I think Heidi, your sister, had mentioned like, look into stone ground flour.
00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:43.840
Like, there seems to be a lot going on there.
00:15:43.919 --> 00:16:05.039
And I think we've started trying to work out what it means to stone mill grain as opposed to other ways of processing flour and the the benefits of stone ground flour and the history of it, and um, you know, the nutritional and flavor benefits of of stone ground flour as opposed to rolling milled flour.
00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:08.320
And so we bought that little stone mill as a experiment.
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:11.120
Um, and then started meeting bakers.
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:18.080
So I think it would have been John Reed and um Michael James probably that would have pushed us to get the new American.
00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:23.600
Yeah, it was probably a a Friday afternoon in the bakery at Redbeard.
00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:25.039
John was in Trentham.
00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:27.759
So John Reed was I was playing with doe them.
00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:28.960
I didn't really know what I was doing.
00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:31.039
He was perfectly shaping them all, thick them off.
00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:33.200
I'd do about one, we could stick my hands in it.
00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:42.399
And we were talking about yeah, about the farm and the mill, our little mill, and what the next steps for that could be in the business case.
00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:53.600
And yeah, he was saying there's these really beautiful stone mills that are being made in the States that actually are milling a really good product for whole grain baking.
00:16:53.919 --> 00:17:00.559
So with that emphasis on we're trying to use the whole grain, not trying to mill the flour to separate it.
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:09.920
So that interest us, interested us, and then yeah, we got talking to, I guess, yeah, Michael James at Tivoli and Emily.
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:30.079
And the more yeah, so Chris and Emily at small uh small world bakery in Langhorn Creek in South Australia, they had imported a new American stone mill and we um got talking to them and yeah, just kept hearing all this these rave reviews about this mill from Vermont um with Andrew uh what's his last name?
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:30.880
Andrew.
00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:38.559
Um anyway, we really liked his model because he was sourcing local granite to make these these stone mills.
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:43.599
Um so he was using Vermont natural granite to make these mills and then shipping them across the world.
00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:56.400
And yeah, it was probably a big decider for us, the fact that it was natural granite as opposed to a lot of the other stone mills, had a composite stone um that's sort of yeah glued together with all sorts of different things.
00:17:56.480 --> 00:18:08.880
And while they're I'm sure they're good and stuff, I just liked the idea of the tradition and the craft and the actual physical stone that has a comes from a place and right on, yeah.
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:10.880
So yeah, that that interested me.
00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:11.279
Yeah.
00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:19.119
So and I think the mill has been like it's been spectacular, and we've created some really beautiful flour.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:44.400
And now that we've been at this kind of point where we've got so much demand for our product, we started considering do we do we buy another mill from new American stone mills in the States, or could we try and look at buying one locally, or is there because it's expensive, especially with the Australian dollar at the moment and importing like there's all these expenses associated with bringing a new mill into Australia and it takes forever as well.
00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:46.480
And it's their place, not ours after all.
00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:50.319
So speaking of place, yeah, their place, isn't it, where that comes from.
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:52.480
So I imagine this was all part of your thinking as well.
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:52.880
Yeah.
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:53.680
Definitely.
00:18:53.839 --> 00:19:11.519
And like if and we started thinking like if we're really passionate about building a local grain economy where local grains are celebrated for their regionality and diversity, then we need to start thinking about every aspect of our business, um, down to the equipment and machinery we use.
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:16.880
And Ian and his brother are pretty hands-on like bush mechanics, if you will.
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:19.839
Farm mechanics.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:25.759
They started as much as I was like not very um, I don't know, just in confident.
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.240
I was not very confident that they could do it.
00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:31.039
They started thinking that they could build their own.
00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:32.480
The story gets better.
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:41.440
And they started looking um and into where they could find some natural granite or what quarries you could work with.
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:43.759
It was more about finding someone who will cut it.
00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:53.599
Um I I'd sort of load up the trailer with um flower ahead down to Melbourne and then make EBA calls on the uh on the way.
00:19:53.680 --> 00:20:11.839
And uh oh yeah, I called heaps of um of people doing you know, granite bench tops and all sorts of stuff, but no one it took me a long time to find someone that had the equipment to cut the we could cut a disc of stone that's 150 mil thick.
00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:18.079
And then we found some people in Castle Maine um at Pyrenees Quarries who could do it.
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.759
And he said, Oh, I've just actually, yeah, that's something we can do.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.960
And they were interested in doing something a little bit different.
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:40.799
And then we sort of that worked in quite well because we'd heard from John Reed again um and a few others that had looked into the actual granite at Harcourt and said it, you know, it looks like it's gonna be suitable for the job.
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:50.960
And so like Hamish and I went down there and had a look just at the granite, and it looks almost identical um to the Vermont granite in terms of particle size.
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:51.200
Yeah.
00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:57.359
Um and yeah, so then we just said, yeah, right, I will get you to cut us a stone or two.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.000
And then you started to build it after that.
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:14.880
Yeah, then we yeah, just sort of made up a frame and it was but it's it was an interesting process because like uh being in Berrigan, there is like we what we wanted to do was make sure that everything we make it out of is something that could be easily fixed.
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:16.160
Easily sourced.
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:17.519
Easily sourced and stuff.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:25.200
So we've only bought stuff, you know, we've made all the sizes to be simple bearings that most places should carry and stuff.
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:33.440
But the good thing about being here in Berrigan and making it, I'm probably it's probably the same in lots of different farming communities.
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:44.559
It was so like it only took one phone call to ring a guy who's got the machine who has the, you know, he does pump, make, fixes pumps for a living.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:46.799
Um, and he was able to make it.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:52.799
And then we had there's a bloke in town who used to do that um machining sort of stuff.
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:56.720
Um, he used to make like gearboxes for mining equipment or something.
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.440
He came out and had a look, and we just had a chat with him about.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.799
um you know what bearings we should use and where and all sorts.
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:17.359
Um there was a like I think there was a bit of skepticism when we first started doing this, probably also in my part that we wouldn't have the that we wouldn't have the expertise and skills locally to do this.
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:28.240
But it turns out we definitely have and it's just through connections and knowing people and just like that kind of can do attitude that you just have to give it a give it a crack and you work it out as you go.
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:53.759
So like I think the final product like the new American stone mill is a beautiful machine and I don't think you know um Andrew's been working on it for a long time and I think it'll be really hard to top what he's done and we're forever grateful for his hard work in building this this beautiful machine but we're also very proud that we could do it locally and yeah work with the community and and take advantage of what we have here.
00:22:54.400 --> 00:23:53.599
And then like to be using local stone as well is so yeah so beautiful I think like I don't know I remember Anthony your chat with uh Tyson Yunkerporter I forgot when that was but you I think Tyson was talking about stone and the cultural importance of stone among certain Aboriginal communities and last year we had a um uh I work for Lancare sometimes the local Coral Lancare and we had a workshop with an archaeologist Colin Pardo and he was talking to us about uh what the local Aboriginal people what their kind of work with stone was all about and the different stone stories and it all just kind of like fitted in really nicely with our new interest in in stones and and it just like yeah I guess reinstated that importance of trying to look locally using what you have locally and how we can it's like the it's all at our fingertips really it has been anyway.
00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:55.839
It's been really nice experience.
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:00.319
Well yes and this brings it to the surface doesn't it so now a whole bunch more people know it.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:18.400
What you've just described then is so huge I think that that the skill base was there but of course if you don't tap it it either stays unrecognized and unvalued including in the economic system in an explicit sense or is lost eventually from an age gone by sort of thing.
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:46.640
But to be reinvigorating that local skill base in all those little ways with the people who play a part in this let alone the consumer end of course which is what Mark talked about so beautifully about his experience that mills and bakeries used to be the heart of communities and indeed that's sort of what happened over there demand's gone crazy for the high end stuff most particularly like the stuff that he really values as an artisan is the stuff that people are really valuing and buying.
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:48.640
And so he's looking at okay what do I do?
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:49.680
Do I get a second mill?
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:51.440
And that's my next question for you guys.
00:24:51.519 --> 00:25:00.960
Like you obviously had Rob say instantly you're making one for yourself make one for me has that continued has anyone else knocked on your door already and is that how big is the vision for that?
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:25.279
Well we we're in WA uh about a month ago we went and saw yeah Mark at Miller and Baker and how to play with his mill and um he's a bit keen but I thought so I've been putting my foot down because limits to groups yes very much so but we're very keen to make to you know actually test ours for a year.
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:32.960
Yeah you know Robert was calling and putting down money for a mill before we'd even made our first mill.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:41.200
So we just need to like take it step by step and um just see how this goes before we commit.
00:25:41.279 --> 00:26:06.160
And like we just need to I don't know it's really it's been interesting this whole journey with our business because it you really do have to keep putting in like um I don't know what you call them but like you need to keep checking yourself before you just keep growing yeah exponentially because there is so much interest in in what we're doing and and we do need to just like put the brakes on and make sure we are doing what we want to do.
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:19.599
And yeah I guess it's an interesting thing to think about though because like we could we could make mills on a commercial scale and and then we'd be supporting other communities to kind of do what we're doing.
00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:53.920
Or we could focus on on growing grain and really challenging the way that we're that we grow grain in an agroecological or regenerative way or we could just try and really focus on getting you know local grain in our community and and whether that's actually baking food ourselves or like I feel like there's we're at a bit of a crossroads at the moment like which way we go to best serve our family and our landscape and our community it's a bit of a it's a tricky one.
00:26:54.079 --> 00:27:08.240
But there's definitely a temptation I think for Ian and Hamish his brother to yeah with Mark keen for us to build him a mill and then there's been a bit of interest in Melbourne as well we'll we'll see no doubt see what happens.
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:28.799
No doubt no but it's well articulated Courtney that is the sort of thought pattern isn't it but it makes me recall Walter Jenner's talking about an export market to the world that we could export knowledge of regenerative agriculture and so forth to the world rather than mass quantities of you know monoculture derived crops.
00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:43.519
And it makes me even think about the mill or for that matter anything that you're doing that what you make commercial to an extent could actually be the know-how that helps other people do it in their region without you needing to mass produce so to speak.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:28:09.759
There's all those sorts options too hey yeah definitely and I think we have been doing that to an extent like we've had several I don't know how many we've had lots of farmers call us up and talk about our model and um we've tried to be as transparent as we can be um and it's kind of got to the point where we we start to worry if we're actually going to have a market for our flour because there's been so many farmers interested in doing a similar thing to us.
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:26.880
But it's it is that kind of like sharing of knowledge and you know it's sometimes it doesn't come so easily or naturally but trying not to think of other farmers in this space as competitors but as collaborators and yeah it's it's been an interesting journey.
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:37.839
Oh no doubt but yeah definitely at this stage thinking of trying to be just knowledge sharers rather than yeah exporters of commodity grains.
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:51.119
Yeah so there's a very real question in that that so many of us grapple with in in different fields as well in this regenerative space so to speak and that is the extent to which you do derive a livelihood.
00:28:51.200 --> 00:29:00.960
And I say livelihood in a broad sense it doesn't have to be money or majority money even but nonetheless that the monetization would be part of it.
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:03.200
How are you guys approaching that?
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:37.279
And I asked that even with reference to for example certification of grains you know you talked about your folks being organic since the 90s so that mattered and now folks are taught oh now we need regenerative certification or Patagonia of course has been part of organic regenerative certification and they believe strongly in that others say it's not about certification it's just I mean the Haggertys for example still use touches of glyphosate to recover as a recovery tool from below threshold ecological function and then drop it and find that their practices from there actually purify it.
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.279
They're not there are no traces when they test their crops after that.
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:47.599
But they'd be cancelled out if there was a certification process that was you know buy the book sort of thing.
00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:49.599
So it makes an interesting dialogue.
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:58.640
I wonder where you guys sit on that including sort of market differentiation and how you get your premium for your higher you know labour type of craft.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:31.759
Yeah um it's something that we're yeah with this new farm we're thinking about quite a lot too like whether we go down that organic certification or biodynamic certification or at the moment the way the business is structured we buy grain off my parents and that's certified organic grain but we have not certified the mill um the flour mill as certified organic so we don't put any certified organic logos on our packaging or anything at this stage but we do write organ certified organic grain.
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:45.680
And I guess that's because we've felt that our storytelling and our transparency is um able to do the the yeah the communicating rather than having to have that certification.
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:52.000
But there there's probably a few markets that have been like oh you know we won't take it unless it's certified organic.
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:58.400
But a lot of those are ones where we haven't developed a relationship with them in the first place.
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:18.160
Yeah that's it isn't it so yeah and I think this is where scale comes into it like at the moment we're quite um small and we do have a relationship with all of our bakers and retailers and so it's not an issue but if we were to continue growing I think yeah it's something that we have to think about a lot more.
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:23.519
But it's such a tricky yeah I I don't think we have a particular stance on it at all.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:29.279
We're just exploring all the avenues but we definitely don't think certified organic is the answer.
00:31:29.359 --> 00:32:01.039
Like it's it's super limited and I don't know through your parents' experience like it's definitely got them a premium but there's no no support from the certifiers to build on what they're doing and there's no outcome verification like we're kind of more interested in in what gets the results like what actually gets carbon in the soil or like how do we know that these processes or these practices are actually increasing biodiversity and and and soil carbon.
00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:05.759
Whereas a lot of these certifiers aren't concerned with that.
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:07.039
It's just very practice based.
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:07.359
Yeah.
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:38.799
And yeah but then we also are very aware that the consumer doesn't want to have to you know interpret really complex messaging on packaging and they just want to see a label and and buy it because and then also that that that certification organic certification does mean a lot to people who are very keen to get any chemicals out of their food as a like which is probably a slightly different conversation to people who are looking to regenerate a landscape.
00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:39.359
Yeah.
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:44.720
Not that they can't be together but yeah I think it's an extra thing.
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:48.559
Yeah that's well articulated I think yeah we're still figuring it out.
00:32:48.799 --> 00:33:12.079
Yeah and that I think you touched on the holistic nature of what you're trying to figure out too isn't it how you do bring even those wants together you know free of the toxic compounds we've just lathered on everything for decades now but in a way that actually does restore the whole like not just your your idea of health in this bundle of flesh and bone but health across the board.
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:21.440
And it also strikes me how it weaves back into the native grains thing that uh is there a native grain certification to have too then you know it's like how far do you go?
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:29.759
And I've been a critic for a while of that labeling sort of ethos you know the sort of uh green light systems or or tick systems or whatever.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:44.400
It's not to say don't do them again, but it's sort of it's at least to say don't find yourself dumbing down for people like empower people and increase capacity across people's ability to interpret and understand.
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:49.759
Yeah dumbing down and sort of shutting out in that way say we'll take care of things and trust us.
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:53.119
Yeah that's got us to where we are that's what we're trying to change.
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:55.920
So definitely yeah that's a really interesting point.
00:33:56.079 --> 00:34:20.719
Yeah we've found um I mean workshops aren't the answer and there's a lot of producers that just do workshops and that's how they engage with community but we have found that through workshops we've been able to um communicate that nuance and and explain what we're doing or trying to do and and just like break down some of those barriers with people and even just with flour like a lot of people just don't know how to use our flour.
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:32.159
Yeah and Ian's mum Jenny has just released a a kind of memoir slash cookbook about the farm and the family and what's it called it's called Woodstock farm food and family.
00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:45.519
And even just having that in the local community has been really awesome to kind of get people to think a bit more about what they're baking with and and what what's behind it.
00:34:45.599 --> 00:35:06.559
Like it's not just as clear cut as a certified organic bud logo it's it's a lot there's a lot more going on and and it's not all good and it's certainly not all bad but it's it's complex and there's it was a journey and and it's I think it's the book and just like our communications on Instagram even like it's trying to get people to join us on that journey maybe.
00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:14.880
I was going to ask what the basis of your storytelling sort of front is is that it at the moment or is it sort of more extensive than that?
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:22.480
We've just got all our bags and branding redone to try and tell more of our story when we're not there to do it.
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:22.800
Yeah.
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:44.400
So that's been an interesting process and trying to work out yeah there's been a lot of um yeah thought no doubt that has to go into like where you what you want to be um telling yeah so that's been interesting but I'm really hoping that that will actually allow the the bag of flour to tell a bit more of a story and get people interested to then follow up on it.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:51.199
But yeah I think we have been using Instagram a lot but it's there's limitations there too.
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:59.920
Like it's only yeah I think through Instagram is how we've met all of our customers almost really basically but yeah bakers love Instagram.
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:00.960
Is that right?
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:18.480
Um but it's through relationships and conversations that we yeah that's what I think we are better at maybe there's something in that isn't it's why I love this even yeah to be able to just well what Tyson called the campfire hey the modern day campfire.
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:22.800
Yeah long form podcast where you can actually get to know people a little bit.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:56.000
Yeah exactly it's been awesome talking with um uh Chris Andrew at Black Duck Foods because he always he's the general manager of Black Duck Foods and he always talks about having a yarn as the kind of the foundation of any business negotiation any right on yeah it's just the the core of their of their model really is having a yarn and I think that's quite quite lovely and I something that we probably we should think about more maybe.
00:36:56.320 --> 00:37:58.159
Yeah yeah I agree I do yeah there's another angle to it to your work too and I I I have to weave in your art too Courtney but let's hold that to the end i let's come back to the question about acquiring land for all those people out there who are inspired by your story and others like yours and just thinking how do I surpass the sort of barriers you talked about at the very beginning in terms of getting a place is there something you can share on that front about your personal experience yeah well we've just been through the Cultivator program with Cultivate Farms and it's been a roller coaster and I think my like Ian might say something different but my main learning through that process is that it's important to start small and I think what we've done with having a small value adding business and finding a market and finding a community that will support us that's been integral.
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:18.800
So even if you don't have a family farm like we've been really lucky to have just finding farmers that you can buy their produce and then value add that and market it to a community and get to know a farm or a farming community that way and and get some farming experience in that way has been really important for us.
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:34.400
But then through this cultivator program we've um we've learned that there are there's lots of money out there and there are lots of investors that are interested in investing in regenerative farms and in farmland.
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:51.599
And while we haven't gone down that path as such we've kind of worked more with our own families to acquire this farm I think there's heaps of opportunities for young farmers to get some keen trusting investors to back you.
00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:55.519
And yeah there's just there's so many people out there that are keen to do it.
00:38:55.599 --> 00:39:06.880
It's just about building a relationship with those investors and finding a pathway through through that kind of yeah impact investment I guess would you say anything different?
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:36.480
Yeah it's a it was an interesting world that we um had a window into so this the program was sort of based around you'd uh create there was sort of 10 farmers or something who were fostered to help create a farm pitch and then at the end of it there was sort of a bank of investors that you would pitch your idea to and they would sort of choose someone to go with and it all didn't end up quite as simple as that and it was quite a few different things along the way.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:52.079
But what it meant was we did create a very strong business plan and had all the numbers and stuff for a whole myriad of uh scenarios from sort of yeah bigger farms to smaller farms to um different things.
00:39:52.239 --> 00:40:21.039
And in the end we uh did sort of start having a few conversations with people who are really interested in buying land and leasing it back or there was other people who were interested in even just helping with infrastructure and solar power and um but there's just it sort of opened up a whole world of possibility which yeah is really interesting and um sort of made us rethink the way that you could go about it.
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:22.480
It sounds really interesting.
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:32.800
I'm get getting a sort of a key theme that even going back to the way the new American stone mill came to hand through the slow it was the slow money pitch wasn't it with Rob and Emma Kate.
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:45.360
Yeah yeah yeah um that it's not to do it alone it's to connect with these opportunities and to connect with these other people to explore together.
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:48.800
Definitely and out of that comes what you do.
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:52.559
I think that's a really interesting not insignificant take home.
00:40:52.880 --> 00:41:07.519
Yeah and through Robert too like I've known Robert for years but it's just in the last year that you know we've picked up on different threads in our different paths and they've kind of come together and I think that's really nice.
00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:22.320
Like I was involved in the Australian Food Sovereignty alliance yeah four years ago maybe and connections from that and different events that I went to from that are still kind of playing a part in what we're doing today which has been really nice.
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:52.639
And yeah I I love the way that Robert the way he goes about his work with Food Connect he just decides he's gonna do something and he finds the money and he just has so many connections and he just um he's so genuine too like he just lives his values and I think that's a real inspiration for Ian and I and his social enterprise that he's doing and that we're hopefully going to be contributing a flour mill to um well not contributing he's paying us for it.
00:41:53.360 --> 00:42:09.199
But like I think that's super inspiring that he like it's it's really um unknown territory for him but he's just doing it and finding the money and finding the people and the the minds that he needs to make it work and I think that's really admirable.
00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:18.800
Indeed yeah no I've I'll be um speaking with Gala and Rob lovely to tack them on to this episode this little story yeah in some fashion.
00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:33.920
Lovely yeah so to your art Courtney because this isn't insignificant either I've been so moved by how you've articulated this and you know I'm so not fond of Facebook that I don't tend to use any of their stable either.
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:39.840
So but I I have a look yeah at people that I'm caring about and engaging with to see what they do.
00:42:40.000 --> 00:43:03.519
Yeah and you know I note the positives that you've said have come of it too for it for that matter but to think of Insta used in the way that you've used it is really quite inspirational because some of your articulation around painting landscape and its connection to regenerative farming at their heart they share a sort of an ethos or a parallel process and I'd love you to speak to that here if you would.
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:09.440
Well I guess I started thinking about that um when I did a few workshops with Earth Canvas.
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:35.760
So it's a local kind of not-for-profit organization around Aubrey mostly and Jill Sandbrook is the kind of the matriarch of Earth Canvas it's her baby anyway and she pairs artists with regenerative farmers and you do workshops where you're learning about the artist's practice and then also the the regenerative farm that you're based on and where you most likely in most instances you're painting on plain air.
00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:56.079
And I yeah I think that got me thinking because they're both kind of two loves of mine is is art and and farming and since having our daughter Mabel three years, three and a half years ago whatever um I've kind of got back into painting and I I wasn't doing it for a while before having Mabel.
00:43:56.400 --> 00:44:04.960
Yeah I don't know it's like I think it's just um When you're painting, you're like you're you're observing and you're interpreting what you see.
00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:06.559
And the same is for farming.
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:10.559
You're farming is or running a farm based business.
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:11.760
It's really important.
00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:14.480
Like I guess it's a holistic management.
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:23.599
It's a fundamental of holistic management too, is that you're constantly observing, you're constantly monitoring, monitoring and monitoring and and making sure you're understanding the whole.
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:32.880
And the same is for for painting, is that you're you're looking and you're interpreting and you're like it's this kind of two-way, this little dance.
00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:34.480
Yeah, it's a lovely metaphor for it.
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:41.360
Yeah, I think thinking of farming as as a creative pursuit as well is interesting.
00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:46.320
That you're you're literally creating and working with creativity, with life.
00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:57.119
And I think that's uh something that some farmers forget that it's just it's all mechanics, um, and you're enforcing and money and pressure.
00:44:57.679 --> 00:44:58.800
Yeah, but it's not.
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:02.000
It's it's a lot more uh complex than that.
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:06.800
And it can be, it can be beautiful and it can be heartbreaking too, obviously.
00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:18.719
Yeah, so it's been interesting um to kind of pursue this sort of art career on the side, as also pursuing farming and and seeing where they kind of meet and diverge.
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:27.199
And yeah, no, I love how you said working with complexity in both cases, to distill the complexity, not simplify it.
00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:36.320
Yeah, in order to create something, whether that's food, fiber, soil, or just or just a painting, while not erasing or denying anything in the process.
00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:37.119
Yeah.
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:38.000
That's beautifully.
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:44.639
That's almost that's one of the best encapsulations of systems thinking or regenerative farming or holistic thinking that I've ever heard.
00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:45.519
So hats off to me.
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:46.800
Oh, thank you.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:51.599
I'm not as well articulated in an interview, sorry.
00:45:53.519 --> 00:45:54.639
To go out, guys.
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:55.840
It's music, of course.
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:56.800
You know this.
00:45:57.199 --> 00:45:58.159
So yeah.
00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:00.880
Who gets to choose or you choose together?
00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:04.719
What piece of music connects you guys, even if you want to go there?
00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:07.440
Oh, that's a really good question.
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:09.599
I don't know.
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:11.360
We might need a lot of things talk about.
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:16.559
Yeah, I know that you asked this question, and I still didn't even think to think about it.
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:29.760
Um, but we like recently, I don't know how this would really tie into what we're thinking about, what we've been discussing, but recently we went to um uh to Barum, um, which is a little town.
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:31.519
Along the river, yeah.
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:32.159
Yeah.
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:40.159
Um, and there was a a kind of a charity gig, and it was, you know, the first gig that a lot of people have been to with COVID and everything.
00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:41.599
So it was really special.
00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:47.360
Um, it's set up by a biodynamic farmer, which I thought was pretty cool, and he's a keen museo.
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:55.519
And um the charity they send instruments to to communities where they might not have access to instruments around the world.
00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:58.000
And so it's a pretty cute charity idea.
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:05.599
And anyway, I had the gig Angie McMahon was playing, and I'd not seen her life, but I've been a fan of her music for a really long time.
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:11.599
And I think I don't know, probably because we haven't been out much because we've got two young children.
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:24.320
We both were just so captivated by her and how she is so honest in her songwriting, and she's just a little yeah, she's a powerhouse.
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:45.840
Powerfully delivered, and it was also the atmosphere being like it was a cold night in a little country town that just felt like at Little Pock Delhi, which is a little community had come out to support it, and we ran into one of our bakers at Shepherd, like who bakes at Shepherd, and we like it was just such a lovely uh community uh night.
00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:50.239
Yeah, mate, you're very it was really special, very warming for the yeah the soul.
00:47:50.559 --> 00:48:02.000
Anyway, her song Slow Mover, I think Ian and I both love, and it was a really lovely um atmosphere, and I loved the way she delivered all of her songs, but that slow mover song is really beautiful.
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:03.199
That's a beautiful story.
00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:03.760
Thanks, guys.
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:07.039
And it occurs to me that epitomizes so much of what you're about.
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:09.519
So again, I'm so glad I asked.
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:19.119
And you know, the the charity, if only because 20 years ago when I was living in Guatemala, part of what I was doing was helping set up a music school in a broader cultural center.
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:30.159
And I I literally just cold canvas music stores in North America to send us instruments, and blissfully they did, but wow to have an effort coordinated it for you, yeah.
00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:33.760
Yeah, and it made a massive difference, and it was a beautiful thing on the ground.
00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:34.639
So that's lovely.
00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:35.760
Cool, that's awesome.
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:41.280
Yeah, no, I think it's a it's underestimated the power of music and oh, exactly.
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:43.119
And creating music, I'm sure.
00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:43.599
Yeah.
00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:44.480
Exactly.
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:46.639
Guys, it's been terrific chatting.
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:49.360
Perhaps we'll drop in next year if it all works out, hey.
00:48:49.599 --> 00:48:50.480
Yeah, please do.
00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:51.119
Please do.
00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:52.000
Thank you.
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:55.840
Anytime it's been great to chat today, and all power to you.
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:58.559
Thank you for hosting such a lovely podcast.
00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:04.320
We've really enjoyed a lot of the stories you've been able to share through your podcast.
00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:05.119
It's a great show.
00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:06.480
Thanks a lot, guys.
00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:07.360
Have a good day.
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:10.639
I hope that settlement comes through well for you without too much more stress.
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:11.199
Thank you.
00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:12.880
And awesome celebrate.
00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:13.920
Thank you, we will.
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:15.199
Thank you very much.
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:18.719
That was Ian Cognden and Courtney Young.
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:25.679
For more on Ian and Courtney, Woodstock Flower, and Courtney's beautiful artwork, see the links in our programme details.
00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:34.880
And if you haven't heard part one of this series yet, tune into episode 88 for my conversation with Gala Watson and Rob Pekin at Food Connect.
00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:41.760
And look out for the launch event in Brisbane soon, with the arrival of the Mill at Food Connect, due in August.
00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:50.880
The Regeneration is an independent podcast free of ads, admission fees, and detached monocultural output, thanks to the generous support of listeners.
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:59.519
If you too value what you hear, please consider joining these kind folks by visiting the website via the show notes, regeneration.com.
00:49:59.920 --> 00:50:05.920
Thanks for your support, and as usual, thanks for rating, sharing, and commenting on the podcast.
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:10.800
The music you're hearing is Faraway Castle by Ray Howe and Sunray.
00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:15.199
And at the top, the system by the Public Opinion Afro Orchestra.
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:17.039
My name's Anthony James.
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:18.719
Thanks for listening.
